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I prefer the Scourges. Dont play kill team much though. However I like Scourges better than I like Ravagers in normal games so I already come built in with a high opinion there.

I've never actually played kill team. Must try it one day!

What's a decent Dark Eldar method for dealing with Deah-Wing Knights, beyond running away?

I'm using a foot-horde list, with 60 ground-pounding warriors and three Talos Engines. Only the trueborn and the Archon are inside transports.

Is just drowning them in shots the most efficient way? My army is putting out an average of 114 shots per turn outside of rapid-fire range.

I've always found Grotesques to be pretty good against Terminators.
Alternatively, Disintegrators are spectacular at removing Termis.

Otherwise, the same way you deal with anything else as Dark Eldar.

Drown them in Poison.

Thanks for the advice!

I edited for clarity- my biggest trouble seems to be against SS termies and death-wing knights respectively. In general, the 3++ from the shields means I can't just toss a Talos or two at 'em and expect results, and the Knights are WS5, T5, 2+3++ and have some special mauls that allow them to hit at strength 10 AP1 at initiative for one round per game. So, they'd make mince-meat out of pretty much anything I can think of throwing at them.

I think you're on the money about whittling them down.

edit- In fact, doing some math-hammer, with each of my three venom/trueborn unit having 4 splinter cannons between of them for a total of 12, they're putting out 72 shots... which'll put 4 wounds on a terminator squad. Hm.

And on the other hand I just realized that I have literally zero anti-vehicle.. Dunno why I thought splinter cannons were strength 7. Ah well, back to the drawing board...

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What's a decent Dark Eldar method for dealing with Deah-Wing Knights, beyond running away?

I'm using a foot-horde list, with 60 ground-pounding warriors and three Talos Engines. Only the trueborn and the Archon are inside transports.

Is just drowning them in shots the most efficient way? My army is putting out an average of 114 shots per turn outside of rapid-fire range.

DE laugh at TDA, splinter shots are easily enough. Pepper them good and they fail their 2+ saves


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 BlaxicanX wrote:
Thanks for the advice!

I edited for clarity- my biggest trouble seems to be against SS termies and death-wing knights respectively. In general, the 3++ from the shields means I can't just toss a Talos or two at 'em and expect results, and the Knights are WS5, T5, 2+3++ and have some special mauls that allow them to hit at strength 10 AP1 at initiative for one round per game. So, they'd make mince-meat out of pretty much anything I can think of throwing at them.

I think you're on the money about whittling them down.

edit- In fact, doing some math-hammer, with each of my three venom/trueborn unit having 4 splinter cannons between of them for a total of 12, they're putting out 72 shots... which'll put 4 wounds on a terminator squad. Hm.

And on the other hand I just realized that I have literally zero anti-vehicle.. Dunno why I thought splinter cannons were strength 7. Ah well, back to the drawing board...

A venom has 2 splinter cannons, 12 shots, causes 4 wounds, little less than 1 unsaved each turn it fires. It costs only 65 points and can kill TDA from 36" away.

It might not sound like much, but if you take 6 of them, that is 390 points. They can put down 4 Deathwing knights a turn. Deathwingknights are expesnive, and they cannot do anything to your venoms. They can never catch them.

Indeed.

I recall there being a rule in the codex that allowed units embarked in a skimmer to fire at full BS even if the venom/raider moved at cruising speed, but I can't find it anywhere. It's been awhile since I've delved into this 'dex. Is that rule an actual thing, or did I imagine it?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I recall there being a rule in the codex that allowed units embarked in a skimmer to fire at full BS even if the venom/raider moved at cruising speed, but I can't find it anywhere. It's been awhile since I've delved into this 'dex. Is that rule an actual thing, or did I imagine it?

Too good to be true, sadly.

There's a rule that lets DE vehicles fire all their weapons at full BS (so a venom / raider / ravager can move 12" and fire at full BS), but not their passengers.

Yeah, that's actually the Ravager special rule (and also I think all fast vehicles have it now as well). A shame, but it's not all bad. After watching and reading a few batreps, I'm starting to pick up on some good tactics for Deldar.

On a different speed- I've thrown together a list for 1500 points that I'd like some opinions on.


Honestly venom/raider spam is just so damn boring to me. It's one of the reasons I never really hopped into the Dark Eldar kool-aid. So, I'd like to give foot horde Deldar a try. I might consider dropping one of the warrior units though, 60 of them isn't a requirement.

That aside, any opinions on wargear/units? I'm kind of worried about anti-vehicle. There's a whopping 16 splinter-cannons in this list, which gives me all the AA I'd need, but will the ravangers be enough or would it be wise to invest in some blasters or dark lances?

Does the list even synergize well? My general plan is to march the warriors up the board, soaking up shots and forming the hammer while my ravagers Venom-born's shoot up the flanks and cripple key units and apply pressure, while the jetbikes contest objectives or screen for the ravagers/venoms.

Any opinions? critiques? Doesn't have to be related to my musings.

You have 9 shots capable of even hurting a vehicle, spread between 3 different AV10 Vehicles of your own. They are not going to get the job done consistently, some games it will be enough, others your opponent will get first turn and they are the biggest best and most efficient targets on the field to shoot at, these games you auto-lose. Losing all 3 by turn 2 is not a rare situation in general.

But what exactly are you trying to achieve with your list? If you are going for "competitive without transports" I can point you in the right direction, if you want walking infantry I can help with that too, so far tho It just looks like you want a lot of splinter cannons, and this is why people take Venom spam - they are the most efficient units for Splinter Cannons in the game and can apply that shooting most reliably.


Walking Warriors is probably not a good idea. Just in general. They have the survivability of a Termagant, for more than double the price. Even in rapid fire range their damage output isn't much higher than Termagants, and lower outside of it. And termagants suck. It's not worth taking Warriors without transports. And even then.... Wyches have a much greater threat potential, and Wrack troops are probably the best you can do generalised. Spamming 60 walking Warriors just feels like you are going to badly lose any war of attrition, just because the unit itself isn't very points efficient, and rather than getting better in numbers it's just amplifying your problems.


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Also Splinter Cannons as AA, I take it you mean against FMC's?

If you're only facing FMCs?

The 4x15 Warriors is... needless.

6x10 would be far more effective, and grant you 2 extra heavy weapons.
And even then....
I'd honestly go 4x10 in Raiders with Dissies, which'd give you some anti-light vehicle and anti-elite infantry, leaving your Ravagers to deal with bigger bits.

And I'm not sure what role the 6 Reavers have tbh.
They're too fragile to be a good 'screen'.

I would likely drop them to properly kit out the other units.

As stated, poison can't hurt vehicles.
You have the grand total of 3 units that can even touch vehicles.

And to extend on what Ovion touched on lightly with Reavers, it's not necessarily the Reavers that are out of place, more the fact that no upgrades are mentioned, and taking naked Reavers is a really bad use of points generally. They can make great use of a Heat Lance which also covers you on a bit more (light) AT, their Caltrops really amplify the damage output, and I personally enjoy an Arena Champ with Agoniser to use their massive mobility to always be available to help my beastpacks/wyches and the like who get tarpitted in CC by something like a Wraithknight or TMC. But just taking them naked? They aren't going to be worth the points, the good thing is if you have the models they are very playable just use them with a higher tier load-out of some description. It's too taste, there is no real wrong answer most their upgrades are useable, but if you aren't taking them with at least one or two of them, leave them at home.

How much anti-tank does an army with a full beast pack need? Most tanks have av10 rear facing armor so the pack just glances them to death. I am thinking of running 3 units of wyches with grenades in venoms for land raiders and titans and what not. Plus a wraith knight. For a close combat army is anti-tank really that important?

Also how do you guys rate wyches? I am watching battle reports were they are insane taking down titans and I see battle reports where bolter fire blows them up in the venom.

Thanks for the advice, gentlemen.

 Ovion wrote:
If you're only facing FMCs?

The 4x15 Warriors is... needless.

6x10 would be far more effective, and grant you 2 extra heavy weapons.
And even then....
I'd honestly go 4x10 in Raiders with Dissies, which'd give you some anti-light vehicle and anti-elite infantry, leaving your Ravagers to deal with bigger bits.

And I'm not sure what role the 6 Reavers have tbh.
They're too fragile to be a good 'screen'.

I would likely drop them to properly kit out the other units.

As stated, poison can't hurt vehicles.
You have the grand total of 3 units that can even touch vehicles.

Assuming dissie is short-hand for a disintegration cannon, I see the value in that. Again though, while it's not hard to maximize Delder potential and just make a list that's basically a dozen raiders/venoms with 10-man warrior and 5-man trueborn in them, that's not really what I'm trying to do. 6x10 sounds makes a lot of sense, now that you mentioned. I originally had them set up as 3 blobs of 20, then condescend them to 4 units of 15 for that very reason. Further deconstructing them to 6x10 for the extra weapons has merit. What special weapons do you think would make most sense on Warrior units?

 SHUPPET wrote:
You have 9 shots capable of even hurting a vehicle, spread between 3 different AV10 Vehicles of your own. They are not going to get the job done consistently, some games it will be enough, others your opponent will get first turn and they are the biggest best and most efficient targets on the field to shoot at, these games you auto-lose. Losing all 3 by turn 2 is not a rare situation in general.

But what exactly are you trying to achieve with your list? If you are going for "competitive without transports" I can point you in the right direction, if you want walking infantry I can help with that too, so far tho It just looks like you want a lot of splinter cannons, and this is why people take Venom spam - they are the most efficient units for Splinter Cannons in the game and can apply that shooting most reliably.


Walking Warriors is probably not a good idea. Just in general. They have the survivability of a Termagant, for more than double the price. Even in rapid fire range their damage output isn't much higher than Termagants, and lower outside of it. And termagants suck. It's not worth taking Warriors without transports. And even then.... Wyches have a much greater threat potential, and Wrack troops are probably the best you can do generalised. Spamming 60 walking Warriors just feels like you are going to badly lose any war of attrition, just because the unit itself isn't very points efficient, and rather than getting better in numbers it's just amplifying your problems.


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Also Splinter Cannons as AA, I take it you mean against FMC's?

I meant AI, anti-infantry/MC. And the Reavers have one caltrop upgrade, didn't have points for more in the current configuration.

I'd like to make the most competitive Deldar list I can that doesn't involve transport-spam. I don't mind using ravagers and venoms as support, but my preference is for ground-pounding units to be the bulk of my force. It doesn't have to be warriors- the only reason I left out wytches and wracks is because without a transport I feel like they won't be making their points back until most of the game is over, due to how slow they are. But I'm open to all advice, and any unit in the codex is pretty much on the table.

Well, basically - Beastpack. There is no better ground pound unit. Want more than 25 beasts? Make another beastpack.

They are just an amazingly points effecient unit. Support it with a bunch Agonizer Hexatrix Haywire Wyches in Venoms, and maybe as many Reaver+AgonizerChamp squads as you can depending on how many beastpacks you took. This will trade very well with anything that tarpits them or any tanks that don't have AV10 rear armour

its still got transports of a sort but they are the support units not the focus

Just my suggestion

Yeah I second Beastpack, it's extremely resilient as far as DE go and with a unit that big that you can spread out you're bound to be assaulting something (if not multi-assaulting) on turn 2. I'd hold off on any large purchases until the new codex is out however (it's rumoured to be next).

Yeah, really your options are: Beastbacks and/or Hellions, maybe some bikes for flavour.
Throw in 1-3 Ravagers and 1-2 Razorwings to flavour.

OR, full coven.

Wracks are pretty damn resilient at the end of the day, as are large groups of Grotesques and Talos (I find 2 plus a Razorwing is that Heavy Support sweet spot).

But as said - wait for the new Codex for expensive stuff, like Coven units especially (being rumoured to be in plastic), and beast packs.

Otherwise, buying up some Battleforces (say 2-3), which WILL stay useful regardless (transports and base troops) before the price hike of a new release, wouldn't be a bad idea.

Khymerae Beastpack + Teleptathy Farseer + Sanctic Eldrad+ Baron. ho mama. Sanctuary+Hammerhand + Invisibility. Lots of tries for the right powers. And both the Farseer and Eldrad laugh at miscasts most of the time so I mean, they can chuck 8 or 9 dice at invis and dare you to even try to stop it.

Culexis Assassin. I hear you. But outside of him? Few enough answers. "Line" attacks, Novas, so on. But having those things costs points that maybe you get back and maybe you dont against other foes.

In any event, BeastStars are cool.

If you're going the full warrior route, max out your warrior squads and take two heavy weapons- either double cannons or double lances. Double lances will split their target priority, but if you need more anti-tank it's a option. I've never found maxed out units of warriors to be a handicap- it takes at the bare minimum 20 shots to kill a full squad, which allows your ravagers to work their magic. I would invest in at least one haemonculi for each squad though- they definately need the feel know pain, and I'm pretty sure they can take hexrifles for sniping. You might split up your Reavers into two squads and take two heat lances for more anti-tank. Also switch at least one Trueborn unit to four blasters(you could also give them a raider and two dark lances to maximize tank hunting).

I second everyone's beastpack suggestion. In addition, I've actually run a list this ed. having warrior squads come out of wwp and it actually worked out really well. It allows them to get in range as soon as they arrive and not already be shot to bits. I also had two talos in the list that came in through the wwp. Their performance was more mediocre, but they do provide a good distraction from the warrior units especially combined with a beastpack. Their also decent at blowing up vehicles and melting squads with their TL liquefier guns too, just some food for thought.

Also, just replace the archon with a haemonculis or three. He serves no purpose and the pain token will give all your warriors a survivability boost.

I like the idea of mass warriors, hence the original list, but I'm leery of maximizing their heavy weapons as I feel like it kind of disincentives me to use their mobility. With weapons like Dark Lances they're pretty much useless if they move, which I want them to do since their basic rifle is only 24'' and rapid-fire. That's why I'd given them all splinter cannons, since their assault 4 profile means that I can keep them mobile and they'll only lose two shots. But, as noted, that's more anti-infantry than I really need.

Mathhammer says that Wracks are both more durable and hit harder in melee than wyches do, but they have zero anti-armor capabilities as they lack access to EMP grenades.

As they're both 10 points and take up the same space on raiders, the question pretty much becomes: should I be using my infantry for anti-infantry duties, or should I be using them nominally for dealing with armor/hard targets? If I were to take a Haemonculi/Wrack coven with minimal or no wyches, how do I fill the anti-armor role using other units in the codex?

Here's what my current list looks like. I've been pretty busy irl so haven't had much time to work on it.



Also, someone mentioned blasterborn. That's a good idea, and something I'm also considering. If I were to do that, might it be prudent to switch out the venom with a raider and give it a disintegrator cannon?

In any case, thanks for all the advice so far guys. Let me know what you think.


Edit- Taking a second look at Khymera and they seem like they can be pretty decent for tanking wounds with their 4++. At 12ppm, might it be worth investing in a couple per beast-pack?

I thought you were trying to avoid spamming transports? If not, blasterborn in venoms would be better antitank- the venom can still ping infantry while the blasters hose a tank. Personally I would try to fi haemonculi in with your Wyches instead of the Hekatrix(personally I prefer liquifier guns over Agonisers). Like the warriors earlier it will help with their survivability quite a bit. Just jump out and let the haemonculi zip around liquifying things if their transport survives.

Erm..hello. I haven't been here in years....looking into the hobby again.

What's with all the chatting about haywire grenades as the new Anti-tank? Did something happen to Dark Lances? Dark Lances are STR8 AP2 right? Against a Rhino (AV11), it was 3+ to glance, 4+ to penetrate. Is it no longer?

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Erm..hello. I haven't been here in years....looking into the hobby again.

What's with all the chatting about haywire grenades as the new Anti-tank? Did something happen to Dark Lances? Dark Lances are STR8 AP2 right? Against a Rhino (AV11), it was 3+ to glance, 4+ to penetrate. Is it no longer?

Yeah, and then a 6+ to actually kill the rhino. Otherwise, you need 2 more glances or pens. So, 6-7 shots to drop a 35 point transport.
It's just inefficient.
On the other hand, 5 wyches charging will kill most tanks in the game.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dashofpepper wrote:
Erm..hello. I haven't been here in years....looking into the hobby again.

What's with all the chatting about haywire grenades as the new Anti-tank? Did something happen to Dark Lances? Dark Lances are STR8 AP2 right? Against a Rhino (AV11), it was 3+ to glance, 4+ to penetrate. Is it no longer?

Yeah, and then a 6+ to actually kill the rhino. Otherwise, you need 2 more glances or pens. So, 6-7 shots to drop a 35 point transport.
It's just inefficient.
On the other hand, 5 wyches charging will kill most tanks in the game.

-Matt

Is that different from 5th Edition, which was the last one I played? Penetrate a Rhino on a 4, then Shaken, Stunned, Weapon Destroyed, Immobilized, Wrecked, Explode. Is that different?

Is that the 7 people are talking about to explode? What are the new results on the penetration table? Does AP2 count for anything then? My Codex is packed away in a box somewhere...it *is* AP2 right?

In 7th edition they made it harder to destroy vehicles. You now need a 7 to explode so yeah a roll of 6 and the +1 from AP2.

Haywire on the other hand is basically just glancing it to death.

One other option is the forgeworld Reaper which I am seriously considering buying.

36" beam weapon that's hits everything under it. It's s7 AP3 but causes d3 haywire hits to vehicles and causes an instant death wound to infantry on a 5+, pure nasty!

Reaper seems very versatile. Not looking at it as strictly AT, it's a model that I imagine would make its points back every game, although definitely needs AT support probably Blasterborn.

Yay reapers