Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I put mine behind line of sight blocking terrain and boost them. Can't shoot them if you can't see them.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Grotesques taken for anti Wave Serpent duty isn't that great. A squad of Wyches will wreck one, why overkill the hell out of it with Urien Grots... I mean if you only take 1 Raider of Grots it's getting nuked their turn 1 and it's cargo has to run the rest of the way or get shot in the open and it could have been 2 squads of Wyches, if you take 3 squads, you could have taken like 5-6 Wyches. We will only win by target saturation not by putting overkill units in Raider.

"They'll get shot out of their Raider turn 1" seems to be the go-to argument against Grotesques. It just doesn't shake out that way for me. Maybe I'm just lucky. But I consistently--across many games--get good results from the grotesques.

Yet that quite clearly was not my main argument. I said that it does the job against Wave Serpents just as well or worse than 5 Wyches for a much cheaper cost. I didn't even say the unit is bad, just that it's not worth listing as a way to deal with Wave Serpents when the option of Wyches is so more much effecient.

Also, I have no idea why your opponents would be failing to kill a Raider with Grots in it before they get to assault. Are they playing an army of Khorne Bezerkers or something. There is very few units that can't shoot down a Raider lol.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Grotesques taken for anti Wave Serpent duty isn't that great. A squad of Wyches will wreck one, why overkill the hell out of it with Urien Grots... I mean if you only take 1 Raider of Grots it's getting nuked their turn 1 and it's cargo has to run the rest of the way or get shot in the open and it could have been 2 squads of Wyches, if you take 3 squads, you could have taken like 5-6 Wyches. We will only win by target saturation not by putting overkill units in Raider.

"They'll get shot out of their Raider turn 1" seems to be the go-to argument against Grotesques. It just doesn't shake out that way for me. Maybe I'm just lucky. But I consistently--across many games--get good results from the grotesques.

Yet that quite clearly was not my main argument. I said that it does the job against Wave Serpents just as well or worse than 5 Wyches for a much cheaper cost. I didn't even say the unit is bad, just that it's not worth listing as a way to deal with Wave Serpents when the option of Wyches is so more much effecient.

Also, I have no idea why your opponents would be failing to kill a Raider with Grots in it before they get to assault. Are they playing an army of Khorne Bezerkers or something. There is very few units that can't shoot down a Raider lol.

Wasn't singling you out, bro. Sorry if you thought I was. Just talking in general.

Do you think that two units of wyches would be more survivable (or as survivable) as a single unit of Grotesques? I haven't crunched the math, to be honest, but my initial impression would be that four Frankensteins would probably weather shooting better than 10 wyches would.

And I find that Night Shields, Flicker Fields, and competent deployment make it pretty simple to get a unit of Grots into CC range (admittedly, possibly losing their Raider on the last turn, but not getting shot out way down the board).

To change the subject slightly, are people holding off expanding their armies, given the possibility of a new codex before the end of the year? I don't think I'm going to pick up new units at this point.

I've been preparing to expand my little Kabal, but the temporary lack of funds + the rumours of a new Codex mean I'm going to wait a bit with this.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Grotesques taken for anti Wave Serpent duty isn't that great. A squad of Wyches will wreck one, why overkill the hell out of it with Urien Grots... I mean if you only take 1 Raider of Grots it's getting nuked their turn 1 and it's cargo has to run the rest of the way or get shot in the open and it could have been 2 squads of Wyches, if you take 3 squads, you could have taken like 5-6 Wyches. We will only win by target saturation not by putting overkill units in Raider.

"They'll get shot out of their Raider turn 1" seems to be the go-to argument against Grotesques. It just doesn't shake out that way for me. Maybe I'm just lucky. But I consistently--across many games--get good results from the grotesques.

Yet that quite clearly was not my main argument. I said that it does the job against Wave Serpents just as well or worse than 5 Wyches for a much cheaper cost. I didn't even say the unit is bad, just that it's not worth listing as a way to deal with Wave Serpents when the option of Wyches is so more much effecient.

Also, I have no idea why your opponents would be failing to kill a Raider with Grots in it before they get to assault. Are they playing an army of Khorne Bezerkers or something. There is very few units that can't shoot down a Raider lol.

Wasn't singling you out, bro. Sorry if you thought I was. Just talking in general.

Do you think that two units of wyches would be more survivable (or as survivable) as a single unit of Grotesques? I haven't crunched the math, to be honest, but my initial impression would be that four Frankensteins would probably weather shooting better than 10 wyches would.

And I find that Night Shields, Flicker Fields, and competent deployment make it pretty simple to get a unit of Grots into CC range (admittedly, possibly losing their Raider on the last turn, but not getting shot out way down the board).

To change the subject slightly, are people holding off expanding their armies, given the possibility of a new codex before the end of the year? I don't think I'm going to pick up new units at this point.

Honestly I usually make purchases of as much used good condition stuff as I can before an update. Once the new book piques interests prices hike and army deals fall off a cliff. The one exception is if the new book ruins the army completely. But honestly we are at such a low end right now I feel its hard to fall lower, i figure worst case is a sideways shift like orks got. I like the army enough to play even if they don't get much. I really just want more access to special weapons and my archon to get a bike/board option.

I've got so many of most things that expansion just isn't that big a deal. Always looking for more Hellions, of course, but most selections in the codex I couldn't field more of outside an Apoc game anyway.

I personally think two Wyche squads for killing Wave Serps are much more survivable than 1 pack of Grots in a Raider. You need only 1 squad to make into range to kill the serpent either way, so the main difference is the survivability of 1 transport to 2. Nothing else relative.

However outside of combat I imagine the Grots are more survivable for all purpose use. That wasn't my point at all, strictly that they are a terrible anti-waveserpentlist unit because they are practically wasted points for what could have been many more squads of Wyches, who hit just as hard more reliably.

That being said, I don't think they are great at all except in Deepstrike/WWP lists where they can rely on positioning not to feth them, and have the durability to live the extra turn. Deploying them on your side of the board is a bad idea. Fact is, any that lose their transports before they get in position are unlikely to make their sizable cost back. Like it or not, and whether it happens to you often, most competitive lists are not only capable but can quite easily knock out a Raider turn 1, if not multiple. This is sort of a given for us, it's just the nature of the army that not all transports are going to do the job, hence why taking a couple of beefy units in Raiders just reveals even more of our Achilles heel and makes those lost transports hurt all the more.

 SHUPPET wrote:
That being said, I don't think they are great at all except in Deepstrike/WWP lists

Honestly, I think Deep Strike lists are the best bet for the army at this point. Heavily staffed fortifications worked pretty well for me in the twilight of 6th ed, but 7th was a little unkind to them, so I haven't really been using them as extensively (and thus can't really attest to how great they are/aren't).

I remain convinced that WWP lists are also viable options, although I really haven't managed to produce any significant results myself.

At this point, I really see three viable types of lists. The first is the Deep Strike list, the WWP list, and the beasts-bikes-n-'boards list. Given the change to the rules regarding transports, I don't have the same faith as I once did in Venomspam or non-Deep Striking Raider Rush.

I think 3 squads of Grots with Urien upgrade, deepstriking for positioning or screaming out of the Webway could work well. No matter what happens they are gonna tear it up subsequent turns. But of course this relies on DSing your whole army or else you are just watering down the threat.

I think GEQ blobs would ruin your day but I think a Razorwing or two, unloading 4 monoscythe missiles that same turn they arrive would alleviate the threat.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Given the change to the rules regarding transports

What change is that?

The flamer thing? The only time we should be within 8" is when we're assaulting or holding an objective. It's bummer, but it's usually not so bad.
The leadership test for shaken results is a buff from before, where there was no test and everyone failed.

So, I'm just not sure they're less reliable than before.

20" for Torrent. Still not all that relevant. Doesn't help though.

Yeah I have to say I PERSONALLY disagree with jimsolos little overview there, but then again what works best is different for everyone. It sounds like he just likes Deepstrike. Massed Venoms is still fine if it's carrying what you need, deepstriking them can hurt more than it helps for a lot of lists. Massed Wyches for starters.

Ohh yeah torrent. It doesn't really hurt Venom spam toooo much, so long as you keep them 8" from each other as well.

Raiders are actually perfect for torrent flamers actually, because the template has to be over as much of the target as possible, so the template would have to go virtually point to point of the Raider and hit nothing else.

 SHUPPET wrote:
It sounds like he just likes Deepstrike.

Ain't no secret!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:
The leadership test for shaken results is a buff from before, where there was no test and everyone failed.

Except that now you have to test or Snap Fire in the event of Weapon Destroyed or Immobilized results as well. (Unless I'm misunderstanding.) While for haywyches, I grant that's not going to be a game breaker, but that could put some serious hurt on blasterborn.

And I think the flamer thing is a big deal, personally. Last edition, a single squad of Space Marines could take down a Venom with no problem. Now, they can quite easily take down a Venom AND kill every occupant with a single volley. If you don't see any templates in your local metas, then I suppose it may not appear like a very big game changer. Around here, marines in Drop Pods, Farsight Enclaves, and Mechvet lists are everywhere you look, and they're all packing flamers out the wazoo.

Venomspam might very well still be viable, but I think it definitely took some hits to its awesomeness in the edition change.

I DO think some bike riding Craftworld Eldar are in my future though.

Potential newb question. How does a unit of Wyches take down a Wave Serpent? I was under the impression that you could only use 1 grenade (I presume the plan was to use haywire grenades) per turn now in 7th...

Throw 1 grenade.
Assault (if you're throwing, you're in assault range).

On average, 5 Wychs, with total 6 grenades (thrown + 5CC) will on avereage, result in 4 hits, of which 3 will be glances, and one will be a pen, glance, or nothing.

That's enough to easily take out just about any vehicle going.

 Ovion wrote:
Throw 1 grenade.
Assault (if you're throwing, you're in assault range).

On average, 5 Wychs, with total 6 grenades (thrown + 5CC) will on avereage, result in 4 hits, of which 3 will be glances, and one will be a pen, glance, or nothing.

That's enough to easily take out just about any vehicle going.

Oh right. I thought in 7th you could only throw 1 grenade per unit in assault? (there was this big discussion in YMDC)

one can be throw per unit. All can use them in melee.

When fighting MCs or Vehicles in CC, Infantry models may replace their CC attacks with a single Grenade attack per model. They function like normal melee attacks, but with the Grenade's profile.

This is a list I've come up with after some research and deliberation:

Combined Arms Detachment – Kabal of the Black Heart (Dark Eldar)

HQ:
1 Baron Sathonyx, 105 pts.

Troops:
10x Kabalite Warriors, 100 pts. (Splinter Cannon)
10x Kabalite Warriors, 100 pts. (Splinter Cannon)

Dedicated Transport:
1 Raider, 80 pts. (Splinter Racks, Night Shields)
1 Raider, 80 pts. (Splinter Racks, Night Shields)

Fast Attack:
4x Beastmasters, 228 pts. (10x Khymerae, 4x Razorwing Flocks)
6x Reavers, 172 pts. (2x Cluster Caltrops)

Heavy Support:
1 Ravager, 125 pts. (Flickerfield, Night Shields)
1 Ravager, 125 pts. (Flickerfield, Night Shields)
1 Razorwing Jetfighter, 175 pts. (Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield, Night Shields)

Allied Detachment – (Eldar)
HQ:
1 Jetseer, 170 pts. (Shard of Anaris, the Spirit Stone of Anath’lan)

Troops:
5x Dire Avengers, 65 pts.
5x Dire Avengers, 65 pts.

Dedicated Transport:
1 Wave Serpent, 130 pts. (TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon)
1 Wave Serpent, 130 pts. (TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon)

Total: 1850/1850 pts.

Green font represents the models I actually possess atm.

Some TL Poison shots, 10 Dark Lances (2 of 'em with optional Skyfire), 4 Monoscythe Missiles, a moderate Beast Pack unit with H&R, Assault and Defence grenades, Fearless, Mastery Level 3 psychic protection and possibly Shrouding and/or Invisibility, and last, but definitely not least, 2 good ol' Wave Serpents with small cargo.

Do you think it would classify as a competitive TAC army?

I recently played a game against my friends gk's with a wwp list, and it performed pretty good. My list was:

2 haemies w/ wwp

2x4 incubi in venoms

2x5 haywyches in venoms

2x10 wracks w/ 2 liquifiers in raiders

2x20 kabals w/ 2 sc's

2 talos' w/ liquifiers

The talos' and kabals came out of the wwp. Overall it was a really fun list to play, The talos' were slightly underwhelming, other than wrecking a storm raven and causing a couple wounds to some pallies, they didn't do a whole lot. I'm thinking next time I do it I'll go more out with the kabal's and take 4-6 blob squads, for throwing buckets of dice if nothing else

 SarisKhan wrote:
This is a list I've come up with after some research and deliberation:

Combined Arms Detachment – Kabal of the Black Heart (Dark Eldar)

HQ:
1 Baron Sathonyx, 105 pts.

Troops:
10x Kabalite Warriors, 100 pts. (Splinter Cannon)
10x Kabalite Warriors, 100 pts. (Splinter Cannon)

Dedicated Transport:
1 Raider, 80 pts. (Splinter Racks, Night Shields)
1 Raider, 80 pts. (Splinter Racks, Night Shields)

Fast Attack:
4x Beastmasters, 228 pts. (10x Khymerae, 4x Razorwing Flocks)
6x Reavers, 172 pts. (2x Cluster Caltrops)

Heavy Support:
1 Ravager, 125 pts. (Flickerfield, Night Shields)
1 Ravager, 125 pts. (Flickerfield, Night Shields)
1 Razorwing Jetfighter, 175 pts. (Splinter Cannon, Flickerfield, Night Shields)

Allied Detachment – (Eldar)
HQ:
1 Jetseer, 170 pts. (Shard of Anaris, the Spirit Stone of Anath’lan)

Troops:
5x Dire Avengers, 65 pts.
5x Dire Avengers, 65 pts.

Dedicated Transport:
1 Wave Serpent, 130 pts. (TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon)
1 Wave Serpent, 130 pts. (TL Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon)

Total: 1850/1850 pts.

Green font represents the models I actually possess atm.

Some TL Poison shots, 10 Dark Lances (2 of 'em with optional Skyfire), 4 Monoscythe Missiles, a moderate Beast Pack unit with H&R, Assault and Defence grenades, Fearless, Mastery Level 3 psychic protection and possibly Shrouding and/or Invisibility, and last, but definitely not least, 2 good ol' Wave Serpents with small cargo.

Do you think it would classify as a competitive TAC army?

Would do fairly well I think although personally I'd rather take a crimson hunter than a razorwing.

Shingen wrote:
Would do fairly well I think although personally I'd rather take a crimson hunter than a razorwing.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that, but Razorwing is more versatile. Also, I personally like the model more

Now that we have access to C:tA allies (although some places do not allow it for tournaments)

I a list type I thought would do very well for Dark Eldar would be necron allies instead of eldar.

With an allied detachment that has Imotekh, warriors+cryptek with solar pulse, anni barge.

Would give you some possible free lightning hits, and with access to multiple detachments/formations and the return of MSU could pay off. Also you would get nightfighting for 2+ turns, with all the dark eldar having night vision wouldnt be so bad.

Already thought of that one dude, its on the first page

Lol totally missed it

I have a few more tactics I have been testing recently. Will post them up later.

Adding a couple of tactical updates now.

Was just wondering what are peoples view on the Dias of Destruction? Of course, i am not talking super competitively, but in my Meta i have been losing quite often to an Eldar player. To put it simply, it's because of his 2 Wave Serpents. I have the same problem with Tesla and Tau mass missiles, but they all have something in common. It's all strength 7 and aside from the odd Wraith cannon it seems to me in my Meta that is the most common strength, so i was thinking, what the heck, lets try Vect!

Vect in the Dias with 8 Haywire Wyches + Hek and a Shard net (For Wraithknight hunting) comes in at just under 600pts. What you have to do is compare the Dias to a Land Raider, Av 13 vs AV 14 but the AV 13 can jink, so similar survivability. Add that to Vects habit to murderize any 3+ save squad in the game by himself and we have a usable, if expensive unit. Vs mass strength 7, would this be an option?

How important is objective secure to us? Trueborns seem better than warriors because they can bring mass special weapons. Blood brides may be on par with wyches if you use wyches mostly as a stall unit, but blood brides with a syren can do a lot of damage.

 lambsandlions wrote:
How important is objective secure to us? Trueborns seem better than warriors because they can bring mass special weapons. Blood brides may be on par with wyches if you use wyches mostly as a stall unit, but blood brides with a syren can do a lot of damage.

objective secured is awesome

also wyches are there to take hits in combat if you actually are bothering with combat. Otherwise they are there for their grenades and blood brides dont throw grenades any better than wyches.