For you Dark Eldar players out there I have been scouring the new rulebook to find a selection of new rules which can benefit us in many wonderful ways which I am going to list below...
Some of these will likely of been covered already in other threads... I am scouring the book at the moment looking for as much useful information as possible, I will keep updating the thread as I go...
There are some MAJOR winners in the Dark Eldar Codex with 7th edition. The Reaver Jetbikes quite frankly are monstrous now...
If you find something else you think would be good on this page drop me a PM and I will add it...
Battle Brothers in Allied Transports
This is quite a fun one, it probably benefits Eldar more than Dark Eldar as you can put Banshees in a Raider or the Dais (can start in the Dais as its not a dedicated transport) and effectively allow them access to an assault vehicle.
My 2 favorite ideas here however are as follows.
1. Vect, Archon (Phantasm Grenade Laucher), Tantalus (Heavy Support, Forgeworld), 7x Wraithblades (Swords) - Archon gives unit Assault and Defensive Grenades, Tantalus is Armor 12 with 2 6 shot Disintegrators and has a capacity of 16! I think everyone can see where I am going with this one...
2. Vect, Dais, 9x Fire Dragons - Again this is a simple one, 9 Fusion shots and Vects S10 shot, if that doesnt work you can always jump out and use your Melta Bombs as well in CC, and Vects Haywire Grenade.
Farseers with Reaver Jetbikes
This is never going to be as powerful as a Seer Council however with the correct mixture of Psychic powers (and perhaps a pain token from a Haemo starting in the unit or combat drugs) you have a unit with a 4+ Invul, Ignores Cover, Possible Rerollable saves (3+ from boosting or 2+ with night fighting), FNP, Furious Charge with 2x Tokens and you can make them Fearless if you invest more pts in the Shard. The main bonus with this unit however is with the below as used in conjunction with Bladevanes / Caltrops and Perfect Timing you are going to wreak face!
You could also go for Malefic powers here and try to get Sanctuary, 3+ re-rollable Invul (with Forewarning and Fortune).
Misfortune
1. The new Misfortune psychic ability gives rending to the unit it is cast at. While this doesnt sound amazing you have to consider what this does to Dark Eldar Poison Weapons. Against Vehicles Poison Weapons are only S1, however it is now possible with Rends to glance vehicles to death on their rear armor. If you move the Farseer up in the movement phase as per the above and then misfortune something you have a very good chance of killing it!
2. For shooting at Deathstars and the like. Against 2+ rerollable invuls it doesnt help much but if you get misfortune and perfect timing you can effectively wound on a 4+, ignore cover and rend with Poison Weapons. No more silly 2+ Terminator Saves, Wraithknights are going to cry massively and Tyranids will likely just want to roll over and die...
3. Heat Lances can now pen Land Raiders so if you are playing a Dark Angels Dakka list with a Librarian behind a Land Raider or 2 you can bladevane the Librarian, remove the invul save bubble and if you don't kill the Land Raiders you can at the very least shoot them the turn after. Dont forget, if you have Farseers in the unit you can also Rend with those. Which not terribly helpful against Land Raiders as they can penetrate them anyway they will be useful against anything armor 15 (Lemon Russ with a Dozer Blade).
4. this affects CC attacks, Wyches, Grotesques, Reavers, Beastpacks and 2+ Poison CC attacks rejoice! Even the lowly Kabalite Warrior can now do something useful in CC. Beastpacks and Grotesques especially are going to benefit from this...!
5. Rear armor of Flyers. I think all Dark Eldar players are with me when we voice our dispproval of our Poison Weapons not being able to shoot things like Helldrakes. Well now we can shoot them in the ass and glance them to death with poison weapons. While I agree its not the best use of the weapons it could certainly come in handy.
6. Eldar Allies will love this as well, those 24 shot Scatter Laser War Walkers are pissing themselves laughing right now... Ability to rend or Penetrate a Land Raider or simply Rend something with a 2+ Armor will be amazing...
7 Required to Destroy Vehicles
I think this speaks for itself, as open topped have a +1 at least we gain some survivability.
Jink now Forces Snap Shots
Luckily for the Dark Eldar we have Flickerfields to protect us. This change in the book while not specifically good for Dark Eldar armies themselves actually helps a lot with killing things like Wave Serpents. As you have to state if you are jinking now before you are even shot at it means we can simply feign shooting at a Wave Serpent with perhaps 1 Dark Lance on a Raider and then just ignore the Wave Serpent while it has to snap shot the next turn. This will definitely help with our survivability.
Also with regards to Reavers, if they Jink it doesn't really do anything, turbo boosting blade vane attacks auto hit so snap shooting doesn't make a difference...
Night Fighting now gives Stealth
This does not state a distance, its just straight up in effect, this benefits Dark Eldar in a number of ways, Reavers that turbo boost are going to get a 2+ cover save (another special benefit to the Jetbikes!) and our vehicles are going to get some nice 3+ saves if starting behind a ruin. Of course this is a slight nerf from the 6th ED Rule as we could have a 2+ in a ruin and ignore it ourselves, however for Turbo Boosting Jetbikes this will be amazing.
Necron Come the Apocalypse Allies
Those problems we have with Flyers are now over. As we can take Necron allies I think 2 Nightscythes and a Doom Scythe will sort that problem out. Currently unless using Forgeworld you can only take 1 Eldar Crimson Hunter in an allied detachment. While I love the Razorwing's the fact they are better for shooting troops and only armor 10 makes we not want to use them. What could be more useful for Dark Eldar than cheap Flyers...!
Bonus number 2, Solar Pulse, night fighting for 2 turns for those lovely Stealth bonus'.
Flyers Destroyed on a Immobilized Result
Roll a 1 or 2 on another roll after immobilizing a Flyer and its coming down... Lances are great for killing flyers however I personally have a habit of rolling 4's all the time! The other important detail here is that on a roll of 3+ the result drops to a crew shaken result meaning only snap shots... Either way we benefit greatly with this one...
Perils of the Warp Table
Those Grisly Trophies just became golden for more than just basic Leadership tests!
Deep Striking Wraithguard
The Deployment rules for Dedicated Transports state that a Dedicated Transport can only be deployed with the unit that bought it. It doesnt however say that you can keep the vehicle in reserve and stick another unit in it. This one might need an FAQ or just a general conversation however the theory is sound. Stick Wraithguard with D-Scythes in a Raider (or a Tantalus if you have Forgeworld models, as these are not dedicated transports you can do what you like!), add Retrofire Jets, drop them in Turn 2 and make your opponent cry (just hope you don't scatter considering how close you need to be to fire them!). You can disembark the turn they arrive and if you take Iyanden you can Battle Focus them (make sure you have a Spiritseer!). This could be rather scary...!
S9 Fearless Grotesques
Urien, Farseer with Sanctic and Hammerhand. S9 on the charge. Again, mix with Misfortune and your laughing... Lob them in a Raider and send them off into the sunset.
3+ Invul Beastpack
Farseers, Sanctic (Sanctuary) and Fortune. Also if you get Hammerhand you have S6 Khymerae!
Deep Strike Reserves
As the 50% limit has been removed its possible to deep strike in almost the entire army. This would work perfect with Duke Sliscus in your list as you can drop a massive amount of units in on turn 2 without the risk of them being shot up (except for interceptor).
This could be used to great advantage with an allied Autarch, a Comms Relay Bastion and a mixed unit in the Bastion (Haemos + Grotesques/Wraiths + Autarch) so you have units on the board turn 1 and don't get tabled.
This way you get a 2+ re-rollable to reserves and you can bring in Flyers (3x Razorwings, 1x Crimson Hunter) plus Trueborn Venoms / Raiders and some Venoms with Kabbies in for Holding Objectives.
Duke Sliscus now has a lot more uses than ever before...
Roll on Malefic and try to get Sacrifice. Use either the Grotesques to tank the wounds taken when summoning (Urien recovers a wound automatically every turn. If summoning with Spiritseers only use 1 warp charge dice so you don't peril.
Farseers should use Incursion or Summoning to try and get Pink Horrors or Screamers.
Spiritseers should use Sacrifice to try and generate a Herald.
Sacrifice says no saves of any kind allowed, I dont know if that means FNP is allowed or not, but if it is then the Grotesques can do that job, otherwise you can tank a few on Urien as he automatically recovers a wound per turn...
If all else fails the Spiritseers should still get some use out of 1, 2 and 3 on the Malefic table as who doesnt like Beam and Torrent Spells..!
Mega Alpha Strike (Possible Apocalypse Only)
1x Kabalite Stormsurge Formation (from White Dwarf), 1x Tantalus or Dais, Vect, 9x Iyanden Spiritseers (or 8 plus a Haemonculus).
Put Vect & 9 Spiritseers in the Dais and roll all the Spiritseers on Telepathy and Runes of Battle. You need to get Terrify and Psychic Shriek from Telepathy and Embolden / Horrify from Runes of Battle.
Hopefully you go first or steal initiative on a 4+. The Kabalite Stormsurge automatically comes in turn 1 and doesnt scatter, place the Archons Raider first right slap bang on the middle of your opponents troops. Now spread 2 More Raiders full of Trueborn (Shardcarbines and / or Blasters) near them and then 9 Reavers Jetbikes with Blaster Upgrades. None of these scatter but must be within 12". Next move up the Dais with the Spiritseers in it 6" and disembark them so you are in range of the enemy (cant use Maledictions from inside vehicles now!).
This is when the fun begins, the Kabalite Stormsurge formation reduces all enemy units by -3 Leadership, now in the Psychic phase cast Horrify on a number of nearby units reducing their leadership by another -3, once this is completed start casting Terrify (another -1 to leadership and forces an instant morale check). Any units hit with this little combo should have a leadership of no higher than 3 and will likely high tail it off the board forthwith. If anything doesn't run away throw some Psychic Shrieks at it to force a Leadership test after the shooting phase.
Anything that is left over shoot the hell out of it with your Trueborn and Reavers and fire off the Raiders Dark Lances at any vehicles they have laying around (hopefully in the rear arc). At the Very least their leadership will be -3 from the formation so its likely something will still run away. Also don't forget you still have the shooting from the rest of your army which started on the board to help with this...
Worst case scenario you make a few units run away or at least dwindle them down. Best case scenario your opponent cries and gives you his hand.
With 10 Spiritseers you should have 10 dice + d6 which should be more than enough unless you are fighting Demons. If you are fighting demons I would hope the alpha strike from all the vehicles and troops does the job as a lot of the spells will be dispelled.
To add insult to injury it would probably be wise to drop a Spiritseer for a Haemonculus and give him the Crucible. You might be able to make some of those stupid demons simply disappear!
The best part about the formation is also that the Raiders count as Zooming Flyers until turn 2, so no enemy charges and snap shots only!
I would suggest investing in a Tantalus for this little tactic and ditching Vect because you save around 200 pts!.
To give you an idea on how this work this list is a starting point for 1750.
Comes in at 1395 points. 1750pts total with Troops.
What does this do for you...
1. Majority Toughness 5 (until you lose 3 Grotesques or Urien).
2. Eldrad is pretty likely to get Fortune so you "should" have rerollable saves.
3. 1x Farseer rolls on Divination, hopefully you get Perfect Timing and Misfortune for Ignores Cover and Rending, other Farseer rolls on Sanctic hoping for Hammerhand and Sactuary.
4. Spiritseers roll on Telepathy, anyone who doesnt get Shrouding or Invisibility will still have plenty of fun spells to cast. You need to also try and get Drain and Empower from ROB.
5. Urien grants the Grotesques extra pain tokens essentially making all the Dark Eldar units have FNP, Furious Charge and Fearless.
6. 20 Warp Charge dice a turn +D6.
7. 30 T5 Wounds with FNP (hopefully you get the 4+ invul power).
8. Lelith will have likely 11 attacks on the Charge, ignoring armor saves at Strength 4 or 5.
9. Upgrade the Grotesques for S6 from Urien. After Empower they are S7, after Furious Charge they are S8 and after Hammerhand they are S10.
10. Assuming you get the charge in you will have 40 S10 attacks with Rending & Re-Rolls to hit from the Grotesques allowing you to Instakill almost anything, Baron will have 6 S8 attacks, Urien will have 5 Instant Death attacks (which rend, wound on a 3+ and can likely be rerolled because of poison and S6, Eldrad will have a Rending, Fleshbane force weapon, Farseers & Spiritseers will have Rending Fleshbane Weapons. All being well you should be able to multicharge about 5 separate units and wipe them all out.
11. Tank Lascannons on Urien, he automatically regenerates a wound every turn.
12. Move up through cover for a 2+ rerollable cover save (taken on the Grotesques who have 3 wounds each) or the 4+ invul form Perfect Timing (if you get it) and dont forget the FNP as well.
Dark Eldar Unbound - No Allies
Best list I have found so far when playing with this is as follows (this is 1600pts, feel free to adjust as required):
Played 4 games with this so far against Chaos, Grey Knights, Dark Angels and Dark Angels / Knights, all the Marine lists got tabled and the Chaos list had only some zombies and typhus left.
Performs well against just about anything...
Iyanden Beastpack with Flyer Support - 1848 pts
This list works well by denying your opponant easy kills. Please note that this is Eldar heavy so the purists out there might not like it.
Tactics are pretty simple, everything except the Beastpack starts in reserves and comes in for an Alpha Strike turn 2.
The Beastpack is nasty for a number of reasons. Rolling the Farseer on Fate or Divination (depending on opponants levels of shooting) can yield rending & ignores cover or doom and fortune. Pick as you please.
Spiritseers roll 2x on Telepathy, 2x on Sanctic and 1x on Battle. You are hoping here for Shrouding, Invisibility, Hammerhand, Sanctuary and either +1 Strength or +1 WS on Runes of Battle.
This unit is expensive but it murders anything it comes into contact with. Especially if you go with Rending and get Hammerhand and +1 Strength as it means the Khymerae can actually explode Land Raiders which is very useful.
Flyers speak for themselves, 6's to hit them for the most part means your opponent has to shoot at either the invisible beastpack or the flyers. No matter which they shoot the others are going to wreak everything.
13 Psychic Dice inst the best but it still should be enough to get powers off.
Deep Strike Assault - 1320
This is my favourite tactic so far, so much fun to play and works well if your opponent doesn't have too much interceptor. Works even better if you have a 1 for Warlord Trait from Strategic as you can deep strike into Ruins for a 3+ cover save.
Deploy Bastion in corner with Autarch, Wracks, Haemo and Sliscus in or behind it.
Deep strike everything else. Plenty of points to spare for most things. I took 2 Wave Serpents and Dire Avengers.
Necrons could cast solar pulse from reserve, but the troops inside the scythe can't score.
I think the big win is the increase in vehicle durability. The old msu vehicle lists will do well shooting cc deathstars that have a 2++ reroll in CC only.
2++ reroll out of cc will be rare now. Fortuned reavers with a 2+/3+ rerollable jink will be beasts until they are hit by ignore cover.
schadenfreude wrote: Necrons could cast solar pulse from reserve, but the troops inside the scythe can't score.
I think the big win is the increase in vehicle durability. The old msu vehicle lists will do well shooting cc deathstars that have a 2++ reroll in CC only.
2++ reroll out of cc will be rare now. Fortuned reavers with a 2+/3+ rerollable jink will be beasts until they are hit by ignore cover.
Indeed, the Solar Pulse is a massive win, I actually forgot to put that on the list so I will add it in now. Thanks for jogging my memory.
Hopefully the Reavers will be good with the 2+ Jink considering they should have FNP too they will be a total nightmare to remove...
2. Vect, Dais, 9x Fire Dragons - Again this is a simple one, 9 Fusion shots and Vects S10 shot, if that doesnt work you can always jump out and use your Melta Bombs as well in CC, and Vects Haywire Grenade.
This is so evil it should be a war crime. I'ma do it likkity split!
In 6th, you still deployed your whole army, even if you were deploying them into reserve, didn't you? I don't think the Wraithguard in a Raider would work. Tantalus is just fine, though!
Here's another one, btw.
Eldrad and Urien's Excellent Adventure
If Eldrad focuses on Malefic Daemonology, then sticking him in with Urien Rakarth might help. If they roll the Sacrifice power, then they can get the Herald for essentially free (since you still get the FNP on it, and even if that fails, Urien will heal it the very next turn). In an Eldar primary, add another daemonology psyker to double your fun. A unit of grots can suck up any additional wounds.
Also, the new 50% reserves rules plus the Stronghold Assault rules give me lovely ideas for WWP lists again.
If you took a Bastion with an escape hatch, you could potentially drop the WWP inside your opponent's deployment zone on the first turn. With a comms relay and a buttload of dudes in Reserve, you could overcome the 'Doofus Phase' (where all your guys have to stand around not assaulting) via target saturation.
I like the Idea of Deep Striking Wraithguard, but it probably would not be very reliable. The scatter would kill it, and a Spiritseer wont fit with them in the Raider so probably no Battle Focus. Now, if there were some sort of item or rule that granted no scatter for Deep Strike, this could work well.
As for the Banshees in the Dias, that sounds like some good fun! Probably too expensive to be worth it though.
Jimsolo wrote: Also, the new 50% reserves rules plus the Stronghold Assault rules give me lovely ideas for WWP lists again.
If you took a Bastion with an escape hatch, you could potentially drop the WWP inside your opponent's deployment zone on the first turn. With a comms relay and a buttload of dudes in Reserve, you could overcome the 'Doofus Phase' (where all your guys have to stand around not assaulting) via target saturation.
I like the sound of this, drop a few Talos in there Will have a look and post it again if I think it might work
Automatically Appended Next Post:
extremefreak17 wrote: I like the Idea of Deep Striking Wraithguard, but it probably would not be very reliable. The scatter would kill it, and a Spiritseer wont fit with them in the Raider so probably no Battle Focus. Now, if there were some sort of item or rule that granted no scatter for Deep Strike, this could work well.
As for the Banshees in the Dias, that sounds like some good fun! Probably too expensive to be worth it though.
Rending poison sounds sick.
You can now get out of transports 6" when they deep strike so if you use a Tantalus you can drop it 12" away from the enemy, move up 6", battle focus 6" and then have all the D-Scythes right in their faces...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Added another tactical idea (at the very bottom).
Seems like a bit of a overpowered little move to me but I will use it regardless
Right hand side in the black column. Doesnt say anything about Apoc, only thing it does say is you can use it in unbound armies if you wish as well so I guess you can do so.
The data sheet for the storm surge formation says it's for apocalypse.
Also the tantalus is a huge models and will encounter the same problems as a deep striking monolith. The risk of a mishap will be high, and it 200+ points before you add the wraith guard. If you pull it off it would be a fun turn though.
I just looked at it again, and it looks like Apocalypse is only mentioned in the introduction of the article, but an Apoc restriction doesn't appear anywhere in the actual rules.
Played my first game of 7th tonight, I can honestly say that Misfortune for shooting armies is amazing...
First turn the Reavers and Farseer moved up, Misfortuned Tiggy and his Terminator friends (storm shields) and the 1 Venom in range managed to kill 3 of them.
When it comes to Misfortune, the re-rolled armor saves are great. But the Rending part of the equation, I think, looks a little tastier on paper than it actually is in reality. Back in 6th, I had countless occasions where I needed to fall back on the Rending potential of Assault Cannons or Sniper Rifles to take down vehicles, and was almost always disappointed. I think Misfortune is certainly good enough to include, but that it would probably more productive to keep the 'Rending on vehicles' as a Hail Mary pass.
Regarding the Stormsurge, while the article mentions Apocalypse, the data sheet with the actual rules on it never mentions Apocalypse.
I'm spitballing, but prior to 7th edition, were there any formations that were legal for regular 40k?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, it appears that the proscription against allies using your Webway Portals is gone.
There may be some wiggle room to argue whether the Portal still qualifies as 'equipment' once dropped (meaning only Eldar and CWE can benefit from the portals) or not (in which case all of your allies regardless of relationship can use it!) but this opens up a whole carton of shenanigans.
It makes sense that Eldar can use them, aanything else is pushing it really
Automatically Appended Next Post: Misfortune is a tricky one. For most armies it's awful but for DE who can easily put out over 125 shots a turn its game changing.
These rends also affect disintegrators meaning you can actually glance land raiders with them or pen wave serpents, makes a huge difference (I run dissie ravagers not lances).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also affects reavers bladevanes which is fantastic if you have perfect timing on.
Misfortune is a tricky one. For most armies it's awful but for DE who can easily put out over 125 shots a turn its game changing.
These rends also affect disintegrators meaning you can actually glance land raiders with them or pen wave serpents, makes a huge difference (I run dissie ravagers not lances).
Misfortune to get rending to kill vehicles is only useful if you only have vehicles to shoot at. It is far far better to have for your splinter shots going through high armor save units.
Using it to kill 1 vehicle means you are spending your warp change for the turn, risking perils, and then a ton of splinter shots to glance stuff. Huge opportunity cost to potentially kill 1 vehicle, where it could have been used to kill a TON of infantry.
I'm going to give Phantasm Launchers a shot next time I play- defensive grenades now can be thrown as a Blind blast! That seems very strong to me against certain armies, and not bad against Marines either.
You failed to point out what we lost in 7th. Our primary AT weapons now only kill on a 6! That screws DE more then we gained regarding the new table. It takes 3 ravagers to kill a single rhino on average now!
We don't have a mid strength high rate of fir weapon, S6-7, which are the best option to knock out armor still.
Sure allies can help with this, but that isn't the point of the thread since we are looking at DE in 7th. Also since anyone can take anyone now.
Then maybe that weapon should no longer be our primary way of AT. While every armies AT has been blunted somewhat, only Dark Eldar and Necrons can truly say that they can mount an AT offensive based on Haywire. Scourges can carry 2 Haywire Blasters per 5 guys, any unit of Wyches or Trueborn can carry Haywire Grenades and the Forge World Reaper is a Ravager that swaps 3 Dark Lances for a single Str 7 shot which causes D3 Haywire hits. Not saying Blasters and Dark Lances are useless, they will be quite good at knocking off guns and immobilizing things, but our Haywire Weapons are just as effective and more importantly, reliable, as ever.
Haywire Wyches are indeed a bit of a suicide unit, but they do gain you access to a Venom, which is always nice. Scourges are a bit better now they are scoring, fast, and have a fair bit of fire power. 2 Units of 5 with 2 Haywire Blasters could make there way into some lists. The Reaper suffers from single shot syndrome i grant you, but guide/prescience help masses with this if you take allies or if not, simply take 2. The Void Raven is still a great weapon, if less likely to explode. How would you feel about swapping your 3 Ravagers for 2 Reapers and a Flyer?
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Then maybe that weapon should no longer be our primary way of AT. While every armies AT has been blunted somewhat, only Dark Eldar and Necrons can truly say that they can mount an AT offensive based on Haywire. Scourges can carry 2 Haywire Blasters per 5 guys, any unit of Wyches or Trueborn can carry Haywire Grenades and the Forge World Reaper is a Ravager that swaps 3 Dark Lances for a single Str 7 shot which causes D3 Haywire hits. Not saying Blasters and Dark Lances are useless, they will be quite good at knocking off guns and immobilizing things, but our Haywire Weapons are just as effective and more importantly, reliable, as ever.
Haywire Wyches are indeed a bit of a suicide unit, but they do gain you access to a Venom, which is always nice. Scourges are a bit better now they are scoring, fast, and have a fair bit of fire power. 2 Units of 5 with 2 Haywire Blasters could make there way into some lists. The Reaper suffers from single shot syndrome i grant you, but guide/prescience help masses with this if you take allies or if not, simply take 2. The Void Raven is still a great weapon, if less likely to explode. How would you feel about swapping your 3 Ravagers for 2 Reapers and a Flyer?
Tau can also take haywire grenades, iff tau players ever read their codex beyond the ultra competitive 5 riptide army
Haywire blasters arent so great on scourges. not enough shots.
Primary AT on Dark Eldar should be Haywire really. Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters are really good now if you DS them, probably more so than blasters.
Considering Knights and Super Heavys / Lords of war are in the game I'd suggest Haywire for AT, ap2 dissies for killing troops.
Shingen wrote: Primary AT on Dark Eldar should be Haywire really. Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters are really good now if you DS them, probably more so than blasters.
Considering Knights and Super Heavys / Lords of war are in the game I'd suggest Haywire for AT, ap2 dissies for killing troops.
Haywire is not that great honesttly. 10 scourge runs you 220 before weapons dude. Thats what 260 you want to deep strike. That's horrible AT, nnot to mention now your wasting all those shard carbines while you strip a couple HP's off a rhino. 4 shots only gets you 2.68 hits then you need 2+ and they need to fail cover if they have it. haywire is neat and can be awesome to knock off that odd last HP but its hardly the answer.
heat lances are only available on a few units as well:
Talos= which is way to slow and needs to run every turn to justify its pts.
reavers= Need to be boosting and bladevaning to be worth it, other wise your trading 1 unit for a cheaper transport. If yuio jink, don't expect to hit with those lances.
Scourges= Again WAY to pricey and fragile and with HL they will need to gamble with deepstrike. Again your trading an expensive unit for a trransport generally. Even killing a land raider doesn't justify the trade at 260.
Even had trueborn been allowed to carry HB it wouldn't be worth it. It's the lack of shots. 4 HB isn't marginally more efficient at stripping HP off rhinos then blasters, except now you can't penetrate 2+ save units like centurions and oblits.
My hope is for dissy's to go up in strength to 6 with the update. Also the addition of some sort of mid strength cheap assault weapon for our elites. Possibly just changing shredders profile to be more like a death-spinner.
You don't need s6, take a farseer, get misfortune and you can rend with them.
I did it last night, you have never seen devastation like it. Turn 3 all the marines where dead except for the 4 flyers which I just kited round the table.
In 2 turns I killed Tigurius, his 5 storm shield bodyguards, 4 tac squads, 2 squads of sternguard (plasma and melta) and their pods (haywire grenades) and a scout squad.
Shingen wrote: Primary AT on Dark Eldar should be Haywire really. Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters are really good now if you DS them, probably more so than blasters.
Considering Knights and Super Heavys / Lords of war are in the game I'd suggest Haywire for AT, ap2 dissies for killing troops.
Again, 4 HB's on scourge is prohibitively expensive and will struggle to even kill a rhino which cost 35 as opposed to 260. A knight won't care either, it's ion shiled will soak half that damage. 4*2/3*1/2*5/6=1.1 HP on a Knight. Now it blows you off the board.
Shingen wrote: Primary AT on Dark Eldar should be Haywire really. Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters are really good now if you DS them, probably more so than blasters.
Considering Knights and Super Heavys / Lords of war are in the game I'd suggest Haywire for AT, ap2 dissies for killing troops.
Again, 4 HB's on scourge is prohibitively expensive and will struggle to even kill a rhino which cost 35 as opposed to 260. A knight won't care either, it's ion shiled will soak half that damage. 4*2/3*1/2*5/6=1.1 HP on a Knight. Now it blows you off the board.
Yeah Scourges are a waste of points but I was just using them to illustrate a point.
Shingen wrote: You don't need s6, take a farseer, get misfortune and you can rend with them.
I did it last night, you have never seen devastation like it. Turn 3 all the marines where dead except for the 4 flyers which I just kited round the table.
In 2 turns I killed Tigurius, his 5 storm shield bodyguards, 4 tac squads, 2 squads of sternguard (plasma and melta) and their pods (haywire grenades) and a scout squad.
Again, your answer is not DE it is eldar. How is that a gained benefit in 7th? I know allies are a part of the game but relying on a farseer AND a random roll to make ONE unit a turn more killable IF they don't dispel that one psycher seems poor.
Also anecdote evidence is worthless. No offense.
If I wanted to use eldar I'd take Warp Spider and Scatter walkers with a serpent to solve it. Of course now all I need do is switch to eldar primary since they are doing all the heavy lifting anyway.
I think we lost more then we gained since all our benefits are coming from our allies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shingen wrote: I really have no idea why people bash disintegrators, they are so much better than lances except if you are shooting a lemen Russ or a land raider.
.
They bounce of armor value. Dissies kill infantry, DE don't need help with that. if s5 was good for vehicles you would see heavy bolters.
You realize s5 can't pen 12+ and can only glance 11 right?
My hope is for dissy's to go up in strength to 6 with the update. Also the addition of some sort of mid strength cheap assault weapon for our elites. Possibly just changing shredders profile to be more like a death-spinner.
I imagine that an update is not going to up dissy strength, but rather up the number of shots on a haywire blaster. assault 2 would go a long way to making them viable.
Dissies used to have two profiles. One being s7 blast (plasma canon). I wouldn't be surprised by a strength increase at all though I agree it's unlikely. I think assault two would only help if the carrier costs are fixed and other units gain access. If it's a scourge only it won't change much.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shingen wrote: Red I'm highly aware of that, I'm also aware dark lances are not the solution as ravagers just get primaried off the field turn 1 with Lances on them.
While splinter cannons are good against high toughness models they are pathetic against anything with 2+ which these days is an awful lot.
This thread is designed to find good things in the New rule bbbook for de, be that allies, dodgy tactics or whatever.
If you want a discussion on the merits of dissies, blasters and haywire I'll gladly chat to you about it either on another thread or in PM.
For the sake of this though can we please get back on topic?
If you have any viable suggestions from the new rule book I'll be glad to hear them, I know you know your stuff.
So because ravagers are so good they are target prioritized, the solution is not taking them? That seems counter intuitive, if they aren't available as a target turn one something else is. What do you suggest? Either way something is going to be hit, taking suboptimal choices makes less sense.
I am not trying to offend anyone here. I thought I was on point as well. How is discussing DE new inability to deal with armor spam not on topic? You mentions the new damage table as a perk, which at face value appears right until you realize our enemies gained just as much as we did, so how is that improvement? I'd also note that no escape added another issue we need to develope strategies for.
I play many armies, so it is easy for me to analyze how one impacts the other. For example my marines use an iron clad with twin heabvy flamersin a pod as well as an allied guard hellhound. The new flamer rules make that a major impact on my DE who now can be roasted turn 1 from within their transports. In fact, without VERY wide spread deployment, a hellhound can catch 2-3 skimmers easily. At least the new FAQ makes helldrakes trickier for our opponents.
For me the new template and vehicle chart are the greatest challenges for my DE now. I don't even know how we handle Imperial knights, I have played 4 at 1500 and it wasn't pretty in 6th.
Red Corsair wrote: Dissies used to have two profiles. One being s7 blast (plasma canon). I wouldn't be surprised by a strength increase at all though I agree it's unlikely. I think assault two would only help if the carrier costs are fixed and other units gain access. If it's a scourge only it won't change much.
the other profile was str4 AP3
the disintigrator is similar to the star cannon. Isnt that now str6 Ap2 heavy 2? I dont know if I see them going up to str6 Ap2 heavy 3, but id take it.
Honestly, I'm not thrilled with the idea of any DE tactics for 7th involving "ally Eldar" in every circumstance. I know it's good, but I prefer to mono-race where possible.
I think Incubi got a big time boost with the changes to assault. Pair them with a husk blade archon and you have a have a fairly potent killing unit.
The problem with a husk blade archon in the past was diminishing returns. It would almost-always kill a target in cc, but there wasn't much effectiveness after that point. Now you can legitimately point an achron/incubi unit at a terminator squad and kill them before they strike, which is huge.
Haywire is great now, only because it's harder to kill vehicles. I think two units of wyches are an auto-take for that reason alone.
I want to play test, but I think Drazhar might have become more viable now too. He's still an expensive CC monster, but having those demi-klaive wounds carry over is great for him. Put him in an incubi squad with a klaivex and there's no good option for a unit against him. The klaivex can accept a challenge and drazhar can use his darting strike to pick out a special weapon or a character they're hoping to hide.
That part is nothing new, but wound spilling really helps here too.
The problem with a husk blade archon in the past was diminishing returns. It would almost-always kill a target in cc, but there wasn't much effectiveness after that point. Now you can legitimately point an achron/incubi unit at a terminator squad and kill them before they strike, which is huge.
They always killed off whatever they went after. The problem is getting into combat while not getting shot and then after they kill a unit not getting shot again.
They are still going to get shot repeatedly and die in horrible fashion.
Auswin wrote: Honestly, I'm not thrilled with the idea of any DE tactics for 7th involving "ally Eldar" in every circumstance. I know it's good, but I prefer to mono-race where possible.
.
This is where I am. If you NEED to have eldar allies in 7th to make them work then I guess that speaks volumes on how they made out.
Auswin wrote: Honestly, I'm not thrilled with the idea of any DE tactics for 7th involving "ally Eldar" in every circumstance. I know it's good, but I prefer to mono-race where possible.
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This is where I am. If you NEED to have eldar allies in 7th to make them work then I guess that speaks volumes on how they made out.
they needed eldar allies in 6th, so I guess they are about where they were
I think they're largely the same. Still 40k's glass cannon that need to build early momentum and keep the pressure on.
Any time I play passively with my Dark Eldar I lose. I don't think that will change. I totally get what Exergy says above about the issue being getting Incubi and an Archon into combat, but the buff to jink and increased difficulty in exploding a transport should allow it to get across the board.
There's no perfect option, to me there's always a bit of luck involved -- which is why I suppose they're so out of favor in the competitive scene unless allied.
Has anyone else faced knights yet? I played 4 at 1500, didn't help i was seized on, especially when you consider that I needed to deploy aggressively do to terrain.
My list was
Baron
3 beastmasters
12 Khymera
3 trueborn 2 canons in venom
3 blaster born in a venom
3 blaster born in a venom
5 haywire wyches in venom
5 haywire wyches in venom
10 warriors in raider with splinter racks
10 warriors in raider with splinter racks
ravager
ravager
It was over turn 1 when he seized, but even had he not, their isn't much we have that can kill those. basically you commit your AT units in exchange for a few HP's only to watch them die and have less the next turn.
First 2 games went well against IG and Tau which were tough bouts, lost to by a VP to tau due to a stupid mistake and time otherwise I had it easily. Trounced IG, but those Knights were a MASSIVE hard counter. This was in 6th too btw.
Dark Light weaponry should still be taken, but it can work to supplement Haywire rather then supersede it. 4 Blasters is likely to get 3 hits, 1.5 glances/pens. 2 Haywire Blasters are likely to get something similar. They should work together to strip tanks of their hull points, something Dark Eldar are one of the best armies at because *all* of our anti tank weaponry will at least glance on the average roll, be that a 4+ for str 8 lance, 6+ on a 2D6 Melta lance or a 2+ for Haywire. Save for Necrons, no other army can say that can strip hull points as reliably as us. Haywire is good at this, exceptionally so, so maybe instead of the normal triple Lance Ravager maybe we could try 2 Reapers instead and a unit of Blaster Born.
Just a little bit of math. 1 Dark Lance hits 66% of the hit, pens 33% of the time, explodes 16% of the time vs none open topped. That gives us a 3% chance to explode anything. So that x3 = 10/9% chance to explode anything in the game pretty much. The Reaper on the other hand has 66% chance to hit, then a 33% chance to roll a 5 or 6 on the D3 Haywire hits, which is almost 20% chance to glance to death any 3 hull point tank, Does that make sense, swapping explosions for reliability?
Auswin wrote: Honestly, I'm not thrilled with the idea of any DE tactics for 7th involving "ally Eldar" in every circumstance. I know it's good, but I prefer to mono-race where possible.
.
This is where I am. If you NEED to have eldar allies in 7th to make them work then I guess that speaks volumes on how they made out.
they needed eldar allies in 6th, so I guess they are about where they were
They didnt need Eldar Allies to make them work, I normally run pure DE in tournaments and although I never win I give many of the cheese lists a run for their money.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Dark Light weaponry should still be taken, but it can work to supplement Haywire rather then supersede it. 4 Blasters is likely to get 3 hits, 1.5 glances/pens. 2 Haywire Blasters are likely to get something similar. They should work together to strip tanks of their hull points, something Dark Eldar are one of the best armies at because *all* of our anti tank weaponry will at least glance on the average roll, be that a 4+ for str 8 lance, 6+ on a 2D6 Melta lance or a 2+ for Haywire. Save for Necrons, no other army can say that can strip hull points as reliably as us. Haywire is good at this, exceptionally so, so maybe instead of the normal triple Lance Ravager maybe we could try 2 Reapers instead and a unit of Blaster Born.
Just a little bit of math. 1 Dark Lance hits 66% of the hit, pens 33% of the time, explodes 16% of the time vs none open topped. That gives us a 3% chance to explode anything. So that x3 = 10/9% chance to explode anything in the game pretty much. The Reaper on the other hand has 66% chance to hit, then a 33% chance to roll a 5 or 6 on the D3 Haywire hits, which is almost 20% chance to glance to death any 3 hull point tank, Does that make sense, swapping explosions for reliability?
Except for the fact haywire is only available on crap units. Scourge suck, period. They are WAY over cost and pay through the nose for their special weapons. They also waste FA slots. The Reaper is neat but not as good as a ravager. A ravager will always put down hints. The reaper has one weapon and cost more. so 1/3 the time it misses. Then when it does hit they can get cover, then you roll for d3. You can get a ravagers with all the bells and whistles for the same price. Isn't the reaper 145?
Automatically Appended Next Post: also your math comparing the two is flawed since your not factoring in HP v HP. Your doing explodes verse HP. The odds of a reaper one shoting a 3hp vehicle are poor.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On second glance you have a point though, I have been on the fence getting a reaper. I don't like that it has 1 weapon however.
Reaper is 115, Ravager is 105 i believe. But remember the Reaper is paying for Aether Sails, which it won't often use. On the other side, it pays reduced for night/flickerfields at only 5pts a pop. So the point different is smaller then you'd think. While i'd agree with single shot syndrome, the reason this hasn't effected me is due to the availability of guide/prescience helping me.
As for the math i only picked explosion vs the amount of hull points needed to down a 3 hull point vehicle. In essence i was doing the ravagers chance to kill a 3 HP vehicle in 1 turn vs a Reapers, where i found the Reapers was better. You are correct though, any kind of save completely mitigates the entire damage. So it's kind of 50/50, but you gotta be honest, the Reaper model looks hot!
Not to piss in anyone's cornflakes...but...I'm pretty sure wyches are dead now...one grenade per unit per phase now...
Also, change to poison rules means that, even with FC, wracks don't reroll against MEQs.
Taloi only get one smash...
It seems they really don't want dark eldar in close combat any more...
I don't think lances really suffer though, comparatively speaking. They're one of the few vehicles that even can still destroy enemy armour in one shot, no matter what it is. Because of that, I expect to see alot more vehicles, especially super-scoring transports. Lances are gonna be king, 3 to 6xRavager lists are gonna be a nasty surprise!
Used to be...it's at the beginning of the grenades section...
...sorry...I rather liked that my buddy's wyches had a legitimate, combat role.
Tarpitting's nice...but really, things that kill are generally better than things that are hard(ish) to kill...
Even before wyches were terrible. Haywire grenades only tempted you into putting a scoring unit into a hairy situation. 12 pts. is way too much as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @alex- yea I was already on the fence about buying one because the kit is sexy. The tantalus looks great but is much worse IMO. I'll probably buy one no matter what and field it since I only have 2 ravagers anyway. My DE are mainly a hobby army ATM. They still can rock, but I find them incredibly boring with every update. I used to run variety and used tricks to win, now with every update my list becomes more redundant and ends up being two weapon profiles for the entire game. Splinter canons and lances... So I will happily add the reaper, thanks for the nudge. I still am hopeful we get a mid strength AT weapon.
Urien Rakarth and a pack of Grots can do some damage to vehicles.
18 S7 attacks on the charge.
I haven't crunched the mathhammer on them, but I have had a handful of good experiences with them. A couple of times now I've had to use them to dig me out of a hairy situation with a vehicle, only to have the assaulting grots bring down the vehicles a little quicker than my Ravagers. Granted, I've only used them three times so far, so I can't speak to any reliability issues they may have, but they sure seem like they've got some utility, at least to me.
Seems to me like we don't have any A-list anti-vehicle options. To that end, I think we're going to have to accept that the Achilles Heel(s) of our army are vehicles and leadership tests. While the second issue continues to plague me, I have found that making sure most of my selections can perform as second- or third-string anti-armor units and just adopt a 'get as get can' approach to popping vehicles.
Well looking things over a little. Ravager has lost much of its charm. Yeah it still pops Terminators, but I think arming them with dissies would be better there. I think because of this Reapers have improved greatly with their d3 haywire +1 str 7 shot. Almost tempted now to field all my heavies as Reapers and then have a 2nd force org for what I think is an awesome buff for a ship that was hurt in 6th.
Apparently (and I haven't looked yet) aircraft can fire more than two missiles now? If that's the case Razorwings just got badass again. I remember people refusing to play against them in 5th ed due to dropping 4 pie plates, not to mention 12 shots from dissies and splinter cannon. Essentially each one would come off of reserves and wipe a squad a turn. They put Longfang missile spam in its place at a time when they were one of the "broken" units.
Also with the new vehicle damage tables, the Voidraven Bomber with its str9 lances just got that much better. Add some missiles for the devastating alpha strike. Plus I think the AA in the game will go one way or another, it will either get more specialized or people will try and ignore flyers since skyfire vehicles are much more limited unless they have a turn off option. It definitely evens up the game a bit for the DE, doesn't boost us mind you, but puts everyone on a closer footing to the DE in regard to lack of AA.
As far as non-flying or skimming AT, I think Wyches just got a new lease on life. I really didn't like fielding them before since 6th was a shooting game. I only started fielding them once Knights appeared on the scene. Now since I see the game going heavier towards vehicles I might be taking more than the one or two squads I typically bring.
Stormsurge is from two WD's ago at this point. (The May 10th edition, which is issue 15.)
Played my first game tonight and got rick-rolled so hard it was ridiculous. In the end, Baron Sathonyx and a 14-strong pack of Hellions wound up chasing a Leman Russ tank commander across the board like a demented version of the Looney Tunes. Crap was ridiculous. (Sidenote, Sathonyx and some Hellions can put some serious hurt on vehicles--as can Beastpacks. More second-string choices to keep in mind.) First game would have actually been mine (I ignored the cards in favor of tabling my opponent after the objective draws went SERIOUSLY skewed in his favor) but it ended at turn 5 with only a single tank remaining on the board.
Jimsolo wrote: Urien Rakarth and a pack of Grots can do some damage to vehicles.
18 S7 attacks on the charge.
I haven't crunched the mathhammer on them, but I have had a handful of good experiences with them. A couple of times now I've had to use them to dig me out of a hairy situation with a vehicle, only to have the assaulting grots bring down the vehicles a little quicker than my Ravagers. Granted, I've only used them three times so far, so I can't speak to any reliability issues they may have, but they sure seem like they've got some utility, at least to me.
Seems to me like we don't have any A-list anti-vehicle options. To that end, I think we're going to have to accept that the Achilles Heel(s) of our army are vehicles and leadership tests. While the second issue continues to plague me, I have found that making sure most of my selections can perform as second- or third-string anti-armor units and just adopt a 'get as get can' approach to popping vehicles.
At the end of 5th, a squad of 10 of these guys was awesome for me. Then 6th smash attacks ruined these guys. With the new smash they may be much more viable again.
Also I confirmed that the Reaper is 135 not 115. I think thats a tad steep but I will still field one, probably not a pair unless I find them working better then I project.
I was actually considering using some war machine models, at least I think it was warmachine, im not so good with anything other than 40k to be honest.
There are some other models which would be cool as Haemonculus.
These guys:
Automatically Appended Next Post: These guys would have made decent Grotesques:
Jimsolo wrote: Urien Rakarth and a pack of Grots can do some damage to vehicles.
18 S7 attacks on the charge.
I haven't crunched the mathhammer on them, but I have had a handful of good experiences with them. A couple of times now I've had to use them to dig me out of a hairy situation with a vehicle, only to have the assaulting grots bring down the vehicles a little quicker than my Ravagers. Granted, I've only used them three times so far, so I can't speak to any reliability issues they may have, but they sure seem like they've got some utility, at least to me.
Seems to me like we don't have any A-list anti-vehicle options. To that end, I think we're going to have to accept that the Achilles Heel(s) of our army are vehicles and leadership tests. While the second issue continues to plague me, I have found that making sure most of my selections can perform as second- or third-string anti-armor units and just adopt a 'get as get can' approach to popping vehicles.
At the end of 5th, a squad of 10 of these guys was awesome for me. Then 6th smash attacks ruined these guys. With the new smash they may be much more viable again.
Smash? How did Smash ruin them for you? Oh, I get it. Instant killing them? I just never ran them into a MC. (Although now that you mention it, that might be a good use of their time now.) The only time I didn't get my money's worth out of them in 6th was in a game where they got caught up by a Librarian with the Dominate power and the Warlord trait that makes a unit use it's lowest Ld value. (THAT combo sucked. Never had cause to look at a Grot's leadership value before. I was horrified.)
I also picked up the Cephalyx Overlords, Shingen. Just gorgeous next to the other DE. Fit right in. For my grotesques, I went with some old Dreamblade figs. They still need some conversion work on a few, and they all need a new paint job, but here are the base minis.
I am really liking DE in 7th. Just conceptual at the moment, no game experience... yet.
I like:
Defensive Grenades being able to be shot to blind.
Raiders and venoms being scoring!
The New Jink. Being able to do it turn 1 and not having to move will really make me worry less about being shot at turn 1.
Love that reavers don't loose effectiveness after jinking.
Love that a killy archon will not get bogged down in challenges.
Haywire grenades are just as awesome as they have always been.
Our vehicles will explode less often.
Comments that I have:
I have always considered any "allies" that are battle brothers, in our case, eldar, iyanden and corsairs, as being part of the same book. Now even more so with the addition to be able to use transports and what not. I just mix and match whatever I want and dont make a big deal out of it
What im wary of:
Flamers kitting the models inside our raiders and venoms! Dangerous.
See it may just be me. I know I am strange, but I have been playing DE since they were first cooked up , fugly models and all, in 98. Back then I always would play my brother who ran Craftworld Eldar. So mixing and matching units between books, or in this case relying on them for AT, feels like admitting their superiority to my bro even though we play less often. Grudge matches are fun, but they mess with your head over a decade lol.
I have wanted to ally them in for conversions mostly (dark avatar anyone?) so maybe I'll tuck them in. I can't stand the wave serpent models however, I remember the 2nd ed codex cover art where they looked like Greek Triremes. So awesome! Then they decided to mod a falcon....wtf...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drk_Oblitr8r wrote: Raiders are more likely to be wrecked than exploded, so they can become LOS blocking terrain
A still feel like celebrating our vehicles durability is a tad silly since literally everything in the game was boosted. If all transports became harder to kill across the board it can't really be called a boost. Especially when we rely on single shot weapons to kill tanks.
Yeah, my game experience so far has given me the impression that the vehicles changes hurt us more than they helped. (Of course, Reavers benefit immensely from the new Jink.)
Jimsolo wrote: Yeah, my game experience so far has given me the impression that the vehicles changes hurt us more than they helped. (Of course, Reavers benefit immensely from the new Jink.)
Yea exactly. If you play DE you adapt and by now exploding vehicles aren't the problem. Mine rarely are in range or without cover unless I am willing to trade the unit anyway. What sucks now, is if I AM willing to trade my trueborn or warrior unit to crack a transport I literally have 50% less chance then I used to, to wipe that tank off the table. Even if I hull it out, they can hide behind the wreck to short me shots on the unit.
Any gain we garnered is also crapped on by the no escape rule. Things like hellhounds, frag noughts and podding assault marines became much more of a counter. Beasts will be mandatory to box them out.
Im working on a list at the moment with Reavers and a Beastpack in it but it loses out on a lot of AT so I am having to take Wyches which are not exactly my favourite thing in the worth.
From my understanding of the new allies you can take more than 1 detachment so I have just shoved in 2 allies with 2 jetseers and 2 jetbike squads and called it at that.
Roll 1 Farseer on ROF and 1 on Divination should give me all the tools I need for killing pretty much anything.
A rending beastpack without having to take Razorwing Flocks is a massive boost (if you roll it).
I have also been trying to work out a list that uses no DE vehicles at all, but thats not going so well. The 20 man Guardian Squad with Farseers in it seems like the best option but I am not a massive fan of it.
Playing a game tomorrow against a friend who uses drop pod sternguard, I played him Tuesday this week and basically wiped him out (except for his 4 flyers) by end of turn 2 (having Tiggy and 5 TH/SS terminators get rended by Venoms was amusing).
Reavers killed a unit even turn up to turn 3 and then couldnt bladevane anything so they just pottered around causing trouble.
Mono DE can still work very well but the tools you get from Allies are so beneficial its hard not to take them.
I dont list tailor, I have 1 list and use it against everything and I think the list I have come up with should be able to stand up to pretty much anything.
I love the wych models though. I painted 20 of them up and use them to win painting comps at my monthly They have paid for themselves so I can't complain. They do suck fiercely though, even as AT. I can't agree with trading a 60pt minimum objective secured troop for a 35 pt rhino .... I have done it... But i hated myself for it
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think a 10 man grot squad with Vect+ 2 heamis with WWP is viable again now that thre is no limit on our reserves and allies can come out. Just pack your reserves with high volume, fast shooters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think a 10 man grot squad with Vect+ 2 heamis with WWP is viable again now that thre is no limit on our reserves and allies can come out. Just pack your reserves with high volume, fast shooters.
What do you mean by no limit? Did something change in 7ed for WWP?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think a 10 man grot squad with Vect+ 2 heamis with WWP is viable again now that thre is no limit on our reserves and allies can come out. Just pack your reserves with high volume, fast shooters.
What do you mean by no limit? Did something change in 7ed for WWP?
Two things changed. The first is that you can put as many units as you want into Reserve. The second is that allies (Battle Brothers at the very least) can use the WWP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think a 10 man grot squad with Vect+ 2 heamis with WWP is viable again now that thre is no limit on our reserves and allies can come out. Just pack your reserves with high volume, fast shooters.
What do you mean by no limit? Did something change in 7ed for WWP?
Two things changed. The first is that you can put as many units as you want into Reserve. The second is that allies (Battle Brothers at the very least) can use the WWP.
I see... so they only need to survive the first round of shooting as they can't charge when they hit the table....
Those'd be some expensive Trueborn, though. And they wouldn't be any less fragile than regular ol' trueborn.
At the tail end of 6th I got into using Fortifications with Wracks crewing the guns. (At 30 points apiece, Wracks make the cheapest BS4 gun crew available in any army!) I haven't tried this yet in 7th, but I still intend to.
Oh, there are cheaper options, but none that don't waste valuable FOC slots. Assuming you brought a haemmy, the wracks are occupying the much less coveted Troops slot. In addition, any wounds they suffer from Glancing Hits on the building will let them have their armor save, (gasp!) followed by their FNP. (Yes, other units have saves, but it's a plus for the Wracks!) For 60 points you can crew both gun silos in a Fortress of Redemption with BS 4 models, and for 80 more you can get another four of them anywhere on the building with heavy bolters to back them up. PLUS some big honking terrain, which our vehicles could DEFINITELY use in this edition.
Trueborn with haywires are expensive, yes... but they are versatile. And they score now.
I have been highly considering running a killy Huskon with a PGL for blind grenades, in a unit of incubi in a raider... to just run at the enemy... Have not done this before but I think it would be a lot of fun.
Will we be forced to leave our Ravagers at home and replace with Voidravens? I'm thinking haywire Wyches should be making a comeback, maybe led by Haemonculi for instant FNP, backed by Splinterborn in Venoms, and some Reavers because....well, because Reavers are just ridiculously cool.
I'm not really concerned about anti-infantry firepower. Our army EXCELS at anti-infantry work. It's the vehicles that give me pause, and between the flyers, the Voidraven seems to have a very slight edge.
Homeskillet wrote: Will we be forced to leave our Ravagers at home and replace with Voidravens? I'm thinking haywire Wyches should be making a comeback, maybe led by Haemonculi for instant FNP, backed by Splinterborn in Venoms, and some Reavers because....well, because Reavers are just ridiculously cool.
Voidravens have worse odds then ravagers at exploding vehicles. 2 shots over 3. Still needing 6's.
Wyches are terrible still. Now that troops are SO valuable with objective secured it makes throwing them away even sillier IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: So... Just going to put this out there. 4 Shatterfield Missiles in one turn.
Literally couldn't matter less what you're hitting. it's all good news.
Homeskillet wrote: Will we be forced to leave our Ravagers at home and replace with Voidravens? I'm thinking haywire Wyches should be making a comeback, maybe led by Haemonculi for instant FNP, backed by Splinterborn in Venoms, and some Reavers because....well, because Reavers are just ridiculously cool.
Voidravens have worse odds then ravagers at exploding vehicles. 2 shots over 3. Still needing 6's.
Wyches are terrible still. Now that troops are SO valuable with objective secured it makes throwing them away even sillier IMO.
I don't think you give wyches (haywyches specifically) enough credit, Red. And although I haven't had enough game experience to state definitively, a PGL on a wych squad might make it all even better (and could definitely reduce some of the danger in them getting shot at).
Although I do agree with you that the Voidraven is probably NOT a better option than the Ravager. I think it's limited mobility and fewer shots will tell over the long haul.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: So... Just going to put this out there. 4 Shatterfield Missiles in one turn.
Literally couldn't matter less what you're hitting. it's all good news.
Vehicles....
Eh, depends. Against Land Raiders and Monoliths you're hosed, but against the vehicle squadrons that seem to be making a comeback? I don't know about you, but I've seen more squadrons in the last two months than I did in all the rest of 6th ed put together. And a St 7 blast (four of them, no less!) might be just the ticket there...
Still, not much use against heavy armor.
I don't think we're going to find the 'messiah solution' to the vehicle problem. I seriously think the best bet is to make do with many second-string options rather than relying on one or two A-list ones.
Well the reality is, voidravens kill everything well. Get behind the vehicle line and theyre in trouble. Str 9 lances mean some success to the front. I dunno. Its pretty bad ass. And fun.
Odd question; what do you all think of getting 3 Wracks just for a Venom, so I can disembark turn 1, embark 5 Fire Dragons in it?
Blasterborn have better range and Lance but, Fire Dragons have Melta a 3+ save Battle Focus and 1 more S8 shot than Blasterborn.
I did the math and, including 30 pts of Wracks, it's 205 for Dragons* and 185 for Blasterborn*. The 3+, Battle Focus, 3 extra bullet-sponges / bodies and, Melta seems huge for only 20 extra points.
*Assuming 65pt Venom (naked + ONLY 10pt 2nd Splinter Cannon)
RancidHate wrote: Odd question; what do you all think of getting 3 Wracks just for a Venom, so I can disembark turn 1, embark 5 Fire Dragons in it?
Blasterborn have better range and Lance but, Fire Dragons have Melta a 3+ save Battle Focus and 1 more S8 shot than Blasterborn.
I did the math and, including 30 pts of Wracks, it's 205 for Dragons* and 185 for Blasterborn*. The 3+, Battle Focus, 3 extra bullet-sponges / bodies and, Melta seems huge for only 20 extra points.
*Assuming 65pt Venom (naked + ONLY 10pt 2nd Splinter Cannon)
Vehicle is too squishy for that kind of firepower.
You'd might be better off fielding Vect and embark the Fire Dragons into his Dias of Destruction. Or, even the Tantalus....
RancidHate wrote: Odd question; what do you all think of getting 3 Wracks just for a Venom, so I can disembark turn 1, embark 5 Fire Dragons in it?
Blasterborn have better range and Lance but, Fire Dragons have Melta a 3+ save Battle Focus and 1 more S8 shot than Blasterborn.
I did the math and, including 30 pts of Wracks, it's 205 for Dragons* and 185 for Blasterborn*. The 3+, Battle Focus, 3 extra bullet-sponges / bodies and, Melta seems huge for only 20 extra points.
*Assuming 65pt Venom (naked + ONLY 10pt 2nd Splinter Cannon)
Vehicle is too squishy for that kind of firepower.
You'd might be better off fielding Vect and embark the Fire Dragons into his Dias of Destruction. Or, even the Tantalus....
sadly that is the world DE live in, gotta put a lot of eggs in one fragile basket. Glass cannon.
Of course that has always been the problem with blasterborn. As a glass cannon they arent really that cheap. Meltavets, firedragons etc are all much better at doing the same damage for the cost. 27ppm is a lot for a guy with a blaster.
Firedragons are just better than blasterborn. The blasterborn get 2 attacks base, FNP+Fearless as an option with kills, and night vision.
Not a good trade compared to 3+ saves, battle focus, and meltabombs.
I think it would be worth trying out. Of course heat lances on scourges can melt any armor anywhere on the field, although mos players are disappointed with their cost(134 I think? For two heat lances and three ablative wounds that sometimes kill infantry). Heat lances on Reavers are another source of anti-heavy armor on a very mobile platform.
Homeskillet wrote: Will we be forced to leave our Ravagers at home and replace with Voidravens? I'm thinking haywire Wyches should be making a comeback, maybe led by Haemonculi for instant FNP, backed by Splinterborn in Venoms, and some Reavers because....well, because Reavers are just ridiculously cool.
Voidravens have worse odds then ravagers at exploding vehicles. 2 shots over 3. Still needing 6's.
Wyches are terrible still. Now that troops are SO valuable with objective secured it makes throwing them away even sillier IMO.
I don't think you give wyches (haywyches specifically) enough credit, Red. And although I haven't had enough game experience to state definitively, a PGL on a wych squad might make it all even better (and could definitely reduce some of the danger in them getting shot at).
Although I do agree with you that the Voidraven is probably NOT a better option than the Ravager. I think it's limited mobility and fewer shots will tell over the long haul.
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Jancoran wrote: So... Just going to put this out there. 4 Shatterfield Missiles in one turn.
Literally couldn't matter less what you're hitting. it's all good news.
Vehicles....
Eh, depends. Against Land Raiders and Monoliths you're hosed, but against the vehicle squadrons that seem to be making a comeback? I don't know about you, but I've seen more squadrons in the last two months than I did in all the rest of 6th ed put together. And a St 7 blast (four of them, no less!) might be just the ticket there...
Still, not much use against heavy armor.
I don't think we're going to find the 'messiah solution' to the vehicle problem. I seriously think the best bet is to make do with many second-string options rather than relying on one or two A-list ones.
Well I can only vouch for my own experience. Haywire wyches are too expensive and look great on paper but don't get the task done as easily as your assuming. Most walkers have either high volume fire or more commonly then that a template weapon. Getting 5 t3 6+ save wyches into assault is not going to happen. If your lucky you make the assault with 1-2 and you still fail to do more then 1 HP. Not to mention turn one your wasting your venoms shots because you need to flat out. Bringing them in a raider just makes them a bigger, juicier target and again they suffer the same issues only now total cost with a transport is ~180, way too expensive to trade on anything but a LR. Against tanks they seem ok until you run the math. 5 attacks needing 3's then 2's means your riding the edge on whether you pop a 3HP tank or not, and you really need to land that thrown grenade hit. Again, in my own experience running dual haywire wyches in venoms, usually one squad never sees turn 2 and the other is greatful to get whatever charge is available. That inability to really pick a target against a smart opponent makes them worthless IMO.
In regard to a razorwing. I like the durability of being a flier, I hate relying on a pair (~300 pts) to come on turn 2. They also shouldn't be effective against vehicles squads. I mean lets give your opponent some benefit from doubt. They have a 4" coherency available, IF you land all 4 thats 4 s7 hits. You'll bounce on any tank and maybe nab a killa can or war walker if their saves are trash due to 2 HP's. Razorwings shred infantry, and I love the model, but they should never waste that one time payload on vehicles to grab 1-2 HP's.
The void raven has a nice punch but the new damage table makes it good for finishing off that wounded vehicle. Not to mention it has a worthless one time bomb. I remember thinking the VR was good until I took a second glance and saw the void mine was regular blast. That thing needs to be at least a 5" IMO and ignore cover.
RancidHate wrote: Odd question; what do you all think of getting 3 Wracks just for a Venom, so I can disembark turn 1, embark 5 Fire Dragons in it?
Blasterborn have better range and Lance but, Fire Dragons have Melta a 3+ save Battle Focus and 1 more S8 shot than Blasterborn.
I did the math and, including 30 pts of Wracks, it's 205 for Dragons* and 185 for Blasterborn*. The 3+, Battle Focus, 3 extra bullet-sponges / bodies and, Melta seems huge for only 20 extra points.
*Assuming 65pt Venom (naked + ONLY 10pt 2nd Splinter Cannon)
RancidHate wrote: Odd question; what do you all think of getting 3 Wracks just for a Venom, so I can disembark turn 1, embark 5 Fire Dragons in it?
Blasterborn have better range and Lance but, Fire Dragons have Melta a 3+ save Battle Focus and 1 more S8 shot than Blasterborn.
I did the math and, including 30 pts of Wracks, it's 205 for Dragons* and 185 for Blasterborn*. The 3+, Battle Focus, 3 extra bullet-sponges / bodies and, Melta seems huge for only 20 extra points.
*Assuming 65pt Venom (naked + ONLY 10pt 2nd Splinter Cannon)
Why not just field them in a WS? Unlike the venom its going to survive, has much more utility and is combat effective much sooner.
In your example turn 1 you will embark meaning no flat out. This means turn 2 your moving at least 12" so your snap firing the passengers unless you disembark, in which case why bother with the delicate opened topped transport? if they counter maneuver you might not get a solid target until turn 3. Way too late in a DE army for my taste. Hit them hard and fast T1-2. They survive that without being crippled and you usually have a massive struggle ahead.
Red Corsair wrote:They also shouldn't be effective against vehicles squads. I mean lets give your opponent some benefit from doubt. They have a 4" coherency available, IF you land all 4 thats 4 s7 hits. You'll bounce on any tank and maybe nab a killa can or war walker if their saves are trash due to 2 HP's. Razorwings shred infantry, and I love the model, but they should never waste that one time payload on vehicles to grab 1-2 HP's.
The void raven has a nice punch but the new damage table makes it good for finishing off that wounded vehicle. Not to mention it has a worthless one time bomb. I remember thinking the VR was good until I took a second glance and saw the void mine was regular blast. That thing needs to be at least a 5" IMO and ignore cover.
Give US some benefit of the doubt too. It shouldn't be that hard to ensure that your opponent will have to be closer than 4" apart in order to obtain optimum shots or avoid incoming fire.
Although I agree that the bomb is virtually useless.
Red Corsair wrote:
Why not just field them in a WS? Unlike the venom its going to survive, has much more utility and is combat effective much sooner.
In your example turn 1 you will embark meaning no flat out. This means turn 2 your moving at least 12" so your snap firing the passengers unless you disembark, in which case why bother with the delicate opened topped transport? if they counter maneuver you might not get a solid target until turn 3. Way too late in a DE army for my taste. Hit them hard and fast T1-2. They survive that without being crippled and you usually have a massive struggle ahead.
I concur. While I'm not opposed to skipping turn 1 because you're Deep Striking (and Blasterborn just got MUCH better now that they can do that and fire to full effect), skipping any effective shooting on turn 1 AND still being around to get shot at? Not worth it in my book. It's a good idea, and Fire Dragons in a Dais or a Tantalus might still find their way into my army somewhere, but I think it's just not quite going to work.
(Alternately, Fire Dragons are a good unit to have pouring out of a WWP, though.)
Why not just field them in a WS? Unlike the venom its going to survive, has much more utility and is combat effective much sooner.
In your example turn 1 you will embark meaning no flat out. This means turn 2 your moving at least 12" so your snap firing the passengers unless you disembark, in which case why bother with the delicate opened topped transport? if they counter maneuver you might not get a solid target until turn 3. Way too late in a DE army for my taste. Hit them hard and fast T1-2. They survive that without being crippled and you usually have a massive struggle ahead.
The question is, why play DE at all when CWE are just better. Once you open that allied door you end up converting more and more
That's a mighty subjective notion there, amigo. And I'm sure there are more than a few people here willing to disagree.
Both armies are good. Competitive even.
Craftworld Eldar are just easier to learn how to play. (At least they were in 6th. Time will tell if 7th ed changes have affected that at all.)
There are one or two things that CWE do better, though. Namely, psykers. Until our new book drops I think I'll be including a couple just as a defensive move.
But I definitely don't think we should exclude the notion of allies simply because it would be easier to just go CWE and spam Wave Serpents.
I have to agree with Exergy. Not tooting my own horn or saying I know more then anyone else, but I have been playing DE since 98 and they have had some great moments. Now however isn't one of them. CWE have a unit for everything we do for cheaper, its stupid but its the sad truth. In fact CWE and necrons are probably our two worst match-ups even over guard.
What annoys me most is seeing the more quirky fun units get worse and worse and the most effective lists are almost always venom/dark light spam. It's a very boring build.
Never had issues? Prey tell, how did you handle the dreaded Wave Serpent? They stand at the nadir of effectiveness for our Lances at Av 12, they can jink for a 3+(!) cover save and have enough fire power to wreck *anything* in the DE army save for a Talos in a single round of shooting. How can we compete with that? Cover saves? They ignore them with shields. Night shields? Serpent Shields are range 60 (!).
I have lost entire games when someone has decided to bring a single Wave Serpent to a thousand point tourney as i had nothing to counter it while it tore through my army, so Dark Eldar buddies, other then Wyches who will never get there how do you handle Wave Serprents. Preferably no allies.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Never had issues? Prey tell, how did you handle the dreaded Wave Serpent? They stand at the nadir of effectiveness for our Lances at Av 12, they can jink for a 3+(!) cover save and have enough fire power to wreck *anything* in the DE army save for a Talos in a single round of shooting. How can we compete with that? Cover saves? They ignore them with shields. Night shields? Serpent Shields are range 60 (!).
I have lost entire games when someone has decided to bring a single Wave Serpent to a thousand point tourney as i had nothing to counter it while it tore through my army, so Dark Eldar buddies, other then Wyches who will never get there how do you handle Wave Serprents. Preferably no allies.
Haywyches, Blasterborn, Raiders, Ravagers, Taloses, Grotesques, Hellions, Reavers, Mandrakes, Beast Packs. All of them are capable of damaging the dreaded Wave Serpent, many without giving up cover saves.
Do Wave Serpents give me trouble? Yes. But they are far from the unstoppable "I-win-button" they are sometimes portrayed as.
Ive been building a DE/Eldar force as my second force for a little while (im a big converter so takes me ages to get an army to the tabletop).
However, ever since reading this thread and a few others ive gotten really excited, however could you guys help clear a few things up for me and possibly give me some experienced advice? I've read this thread and I know a few were keen to keep it clear of the eldar allies aspect, so if you'd prefer me to start a separate thread then please do inform me not trying to steer you all off topic
As my force is a harle exodite fluffy army (love fluffy armies!) I am modelling them as a combination of DE and Eldar bits for a nice mixed 'darker' army feel. So in that respect I have no issue fielding units from either dex. My theme is primarily a 'Dsing' or orbital raiding styled army with the intention of bringing plenty of fast units, so Warp spiders, hawks along side all my DSing gunboats.
My questions:
I understand that as mentioned earlier I can technically put units from eldar into reserves and then into a venom or a raider. As reserves is deployment (is that the reason?). However, I assume then that I still need to bring a unit in order to bring the dedicated transport? the new unbound doesn't allow me to simply field dedicated transports freely right?
Secondly, if i remember correctly, sliscus's 3+ poison, can I apply that to a gunboat in reserves and then have him DS in with a separate unit while leaving the 3+ on the gunboat? Or do I still have to have him arrive with the unit the 3+ is linked to? I thought I read an FAQ or something where they specified something to do with the dukes deployment, but I cant remember which way it took it.
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Hey guys,
Ive been building a DE/Eldar force as my second force for a little while (im a big converter so takes me ages to get an army to the tabletop).
However, ever since reading this thread and a few others ive gotten really excited, however could you guys help clear a few things up for me and possibly give me some experienced advice? I've read this thread and I know a few were keen to keep it clear of the eldar allies aspect, so if you'd prefer me to start a separate thread then please do inform me not trying to steer you all off topic
As my force is a harle exodite fluffy army (love fluffy armies!) I am modelling them as a combination of DE and Eldar bits for a nice mixed 'darker' army feel. So in that respect I have no issue fielding units from either dex. My theme is primarily a 'Dsing' or orbital raiding styled army with the intention of bringing plenty of fast units, so Warp spiders, hawks along side all my DSing gunboats.
My questions:
I understand that as mentioned earlier I can technically put units from eldar into reserves and then into a venom or a raider. As reserves is deployment (is that the reason?). However, I assume then that I still need to bring a unit in order to bring the dedicated transport? the new unbound doesn't allow me to simply field dedicated transports freely right?
Secondly, if i remember correctly, sliscus's 3+ poison, can I apply that to a gunboat in reserves and then have him DS in with a separate unit while leaving the 3+ on the gunboat? Or do I still have to have him arrive with the unit the 3+ is linked to? I thought I read an FAQ or something where they specified something to do with the dukes deployment, but I cant remember which way it took it.
Shingen wrote: Sliscus has to be deployed with them however he is free to leave the unit turn 1 if you desire and the 3+ stays with the unit.
You have to take a unit to get a dedicated transport and you can't deploy another unit in it.
Ok thanks for the info on sliscus As I intend on DSing him, I suppose he can stick with the raider and move to join another group after the deepstrike.
Regards to your second part:
On the first page is this:
The Deployment rules for Dedicated Transports state that a Dedicated Transport can only be deployed with the unit that bought it. It doesnt however say that you can keep the vehicle in reserve and stick another unit in it. This one might need an FAQ or just a general conversation however the theory is sound. Stick Wraithguard with D-Scythes in a Raider (or a Tantalus if you have Forgeworld models, as these are not dedicated transports you can do what you like!), add Retrofire Jets, drop them in Turn 2 and make your opponent cry (just hope you don't scatter considering how close you need to be to fire them!). You can disembark the turn they arrive and if you take Iyanden you can Battle Focus them (make sure you have a Spiritseer!).
Any thoughts on this? As I would suppose you'd be deploying both units into reserves, but technically you could have them come onto the table separately at the edge (they don't have to be inside it) hmm, not sure. I would hope I am able to do this as I can then put some eldar units inside
The other choice if I cant I suppose would be:
WWP - drop that when the duke DS's and then bring through my wraith units.
Gate of infinity - I can use spiritseers (They can access santic right now? not sure where to look that up.) to DS my wraith units into the fray once the duke arrives.
Oh Wow, just seen the tantalus model for the first time. Now that is something id love to field! And looking at the rules possibly not seems a little under protected for its points cost considering its open topped and so large, but AV 12 on sides isnt shabby, not particularly effective if I drop it in from DS right in front of the enemy to unload some wraiths. Although saying that, DS it in (assuming I can DS it with retrojets - dukes special probably doesn't include tantalus im guessing), open fire with the 6 dissies and melt some tough unit, then have the wraithguard blast something else to pieces alongside it.
Downsides: wont be able to disembark the turn it DS's, probably will be gone come second turn on the board although could be really fun for fluff purposes, having it DS in with the other raiders and venoms as if it was the central core of a raiding party.
ooo really considering it now purely for the enjoyment of the model and casual games. Thanks for the point towards the tantalus, saw the reaper too which looks awesome.
Tantalus is a great model, bit of a pain to build and transport, but beautiful. It also draws so much fire its silly. Works insanely good if you get lucky with a warlord trait to outflank it.
Solar Shock wrote: Oh Wow, just seen the tantalus model for the first time. Now that is something id love to field! And looking at the rules possibly not seems a little under protected for its points cost considering its open topped and so large, but AV 12 on sides isnt shabby, not particularly effective if I drop it in from DS right in front of the enemy to unload some wraiths. Although saying that, DS it in (assuming I can DS it with retrojets - dukes special probably doesn't include tantalus im guessing), open fire with the 6 dissies and melt some tough unit, then have the wraithguard blast something else to pieces alongside it.
Downsides: wont be able to disembark the turn it DS's, probably will be gone come second turn on the board although could be really fun for fluff purposes, having it DS in with the other raiders and venoms as if it was the central core of a raiding party.
ooo really considering it now purely for the enjoyment of the model and casual games. Thanks for the point towards the tantalus, saw the reaper too which looks awesome.
Why can't you disembark? Deep striking vehicles count as having moved at combat speed now.
Solar Shock wrote: Oh Wow, just seen the tantalus model for the first time. Now that is something id love to field! And looking at the rules possibly not seems a little under protected for its points cost considering its open topped and so large, but AV 12 on sides isnt shabby, not particularly effective if I drop it in from DS right in front of the enemy to unload some wraiths. Although saying that, DS it in (assuming I can DS it with retrojets - dukes special probably doesn't include tantalus im guessing), open fire with the 6 dissies and melt some tough unit, then have the wraithguard blast something else to pieces alongside it.
Downsides: wont be able to disembark the turn it DS's, probably will be gone come second turn on the board although could be really fun for fluff purposes, having it DS in with the other raiders and venoms as if it was the central core of a raiding party.
ooo really considering it now purely for the enjoyment of the model and casual games. Thanks for the point towards the tantalus, saw the reaper too which looks awesome.
Why can't you disembark? Deep striking vehicles count as having moved at combat speed now.
I believe the retrojets wargear itself prohibit you from disembarking.
However, the Duke's rule grants all vehicles DS... so, for there I guess you could disembark.
Caveat: This is all from memory, so I could be wrong.
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Shingen wrote: I'd say no you can't switch them out in reserves. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Corollax wrote: Why can't you disembark? Deep striking vehicles count as having moved at combat speed now.
I believe the retrojets wargear itself prohibit you from disembarking.
However, the Duke's rule grants all vehicles DS... so, for there I guess you could disembark.
Caveat: This is all from memory, so I could be wrong.
<snip>
You're right that retrofire jets prohibit disembarking, but the Tantalus doesn't need them (even if it can buy them). It has the deep strike rule already, which doesn't have such a prohibition on disembarking. Handy, that.
That said, I wouldn't deep strike it. It's a fast skimmer with enhanced aether sails. You should be able to just move it on from your deployment zone without the inconvenience of scattering or risk of mishap. It even gives you a chance to use your scythevanes.
RancidHate wrote: Ok, so people ain't down with Dragons in a Venom like I thought. Although that was a great idea, Dragons out of a Webway Portal.
What about hmm... what's odd.. Sword Wraithblades in a Raider? It alleviates their biggest problem, actually getting into combat.
I know since DE transports are usually dedicated there has to be some turn 1 disembark / embark shuffling...
I don't think any plot that involves turn 1 disembark shuffling is going to work where Dark Eldar are involved. The army as a whole is too focused on speed. (Although, again, both the Tantalus and Webway Portal spring to mind.)
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Shingen wrote: Dais only fits 10 models and isn't as survivable.
Tantalus everytime.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tantalus btw fits 16
Tantalus price: $150 (before astronomic overseas shipping)
"Dais" (Ravager) price: $50 (and is available at any local game store)
I'm not saying don't get a Tantalus, but this is certainly going to be a factor in people's choices.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Never had issues? Prey tell, how did you handle the dreaded Wave Serpent? They stand at the nadir of effectiveness for our Lances at Av 12, they can jink for a 3+(!) cover save and have enough fire power to wreck *anything* in the DE army save for a Talos in a single round of shooting. How can we compete with that? Cover saves? They ignore them with shields. Night shields? Serpent Shields are range 60 (!).
I have lost entire games when someone has decided to bring a single Wave Serpent to a thousand point tourney as i had nothing to counter it while it tore through my army, so Dark Eldar buddies, other then Wyches who will never get there how do you handle Wave Serprents. Preferably no allies.
Haywyches, Blasterborn, Raiders, Ravagers, Taloses, Grotesques, Hellions, Reavers, Mandrakes, Beast Packs. All of them are capable of damaging the dreaded Wave Serpent, many without giving up cover saves.
Do Wave Serpents give me trouble? Yes. But they are far from the unstoppable "I-win-button" they are sometimes portrayed as.
OK you keep saying haywyches which has to tell me you have very limited experience with them. they are not actually good vehicle hunters. I'd say a wave serpent is the last thing on their list of achievable tasks btw. They have no threateni9ng shooting so it doesn't need to jink and its shield RAPES DE skimmers. I also am stunned that you actually listed Taloi, Grots and most troubling of all Mandrakes.... seriously Mandrakes? None of those unts will catch even a casually shifting WS.
Deepstriking requires the Duke who I love but he doesn't add much to an army other then looking awesome and a suicidal drop zone tactic all for 150pts. Grabbing rear armor from serpents via DS venoms is beyond not worth it. They still get a 3++ jink even if stationary and now you are putting them between a WS and a hard place (board edge) and thats only if your opponents intoxicated enough to leave said gap. Or was he just baiting a poor play? Hmmmmm. 2-3 wave serpents is enough to destroy 2-3 DE skimmers per turn consistently. Venoms have 2 pitiful HP and are our best carrier.
Unit for unit the CWE have a similar entry, actually usually 2 that do our jobs as good if not better for cheaper. It sucks but it's sadly the truth. Christ, a scourge is 22 pts, a hawk is 16, wind rider 17 and spider 19 all of which are faster, have better USR's and are more durable. I mean wind riders are 17 AND troops and basically invalidate every jump unit we have.
Heck one of our best unit entries in the book are Blasterborn. Price 27 ppm, see fire dragons 22 ppm better save, better gun, comes with melta bombs eldar don't even take them anymore because they are "too much" lol.
We have awesome units, our price tags are so crappy though its insane. Wyches should have their old gear back IMO. The new book killed them for me. Back after the WD update they were great. No unique weapons, instead every wych eliminated their enemies extra ccw attack, had a 4++ dodge and units that weren't double their strength (s6) halved their weapon skill AND they could take two special weapons (blasters and shredders). Think about that, they got worse before 6th or 7th hit. Bringing back the unique weapon profiles at X amount on 1 per 5 was the biggest step back IMO. Now they are 10 PPM, 12 if you even try making them AT which is not advised. So awful when a Swooping hawk is 16ppm has a 4+, jump infantry, battle focus, messenger of victory, hawk bombs, haywire G, AND a 3 shot basic weapon and ld9. Yea I would say CWE outclass us ATM, not even an argument. We need a 15-25% across the board point drop, and that's just the start. We then need a new vehicle, and a few new weapon profiles. Personally I always hated the poison mechanic change. Should have been splinter rifles/pistols S4 poison 5+, canons s5 poison 5+ (possibly rending). removing their strength just makes them underwhelming against cheap units and OP against MC's.
Well the main reason I wanted DS was that primarily I wouldn't have a lot of armour on the table, meaning the tantalus would be the target of choice, Id have a wraithknight down, but im sure a tantalus full of wraithguard would be too juicey a target for not getting it in the neck first turn. But anyways, I can get it and experiment, although ive never come across the dias gona go look it up.
Hmm doesn't seem too bad but just a huge amount of points. in honesty what I think is probably more points effective is simply bringing a couple squads of wraithguard and put spiritseers with them, roll for gate of infinity and if I dont get it I can use a raider or something.
Although a WWP does seem oh so fluffy and awesome. id love to have an iyanden force pouring through a webway straight into the ranks of the enemy, blasting holes in everything as my raiders and venoms DS and my hawks and spiders dart in and out.
I think il get the tantalus anyway although apparently its 11" long, which seems humongous but would be soooo sweet as the centre of a DS raid, throwing out a unit of banshees, wraithguard straight into the fray.
I think wraithguard would be unit of choice, simply because if it got wrecked they'd take the punishment and most likely any fire from the enemy come next turn. Although id be hoping target saturation with a full raiding party being too much to handle.
I have a 7th ED Deep Strike list with 10 vehicles deep striking which I will post up a bit later on the first post of the thread.
Been toying around with it tonight and while shooting Wave Serpents in the rear isn't the most effective use they certainly work rather well.
With regards to Wyches. Don't underestimate them, I have and do run lists with Wyches in, they are probably the best thing DE have when it comes to destroying Wave Serpents, Yes Haywire might not be able to pen anymore (unless open topped) but they still glance things to death much better than any vehicle we have access to.
Comparing Eldar and Dark Eldar units is kinda stupid, they both have different roles, Scourges for the price with their basic weapon are not "that" bad but still not really a unit of choice.
Eldar are a tool DE can use to make them more effective.
Again, I said it a few posts ago, the thread is meant to be used to work out what DE can do well in 7th, not bitch, moan and chastise them at every opportunity.
Can we get back on the "good" side of things.
Some constructive suggestions would be welcome (especially from you Red), all I am hearing at the moment is crap though to be honest...
Crap? Hey-hey, now; I can't speak for everyone but, I'm gonna defend myself, I was trying to come up with new, crazy things that might work and, learned a few as well.
Before I propose the following keep in mind I'm not familiar with Forgeworld units.
Ok so a Falcon is a non-dedicated transport that holds 5 dudes, which 5 dudes would be best put in it? Definitely not close combat tough-guys, since no Eldar vehicle currently has the "Assault Vehicle" rule.
See, what I really have a curiosity-boner for is how to use the new rule about Eldar and Dark Eldar using each-other's vehicles (even with turn 1 shuffling). Or just, do whatever you gotta do to get that Ivniz, then cast it on a HamGrot squad. Only hit 3W T5 guys on 6s ...oooohhh....ah ...ahhhh.
RancidHate wrote: Crap? Hey-hey, now; I can't speak for everyone but, I'm gonna defend myself, I was trying to come up with new, crazy things that might work and, learned a few as well.
Before I propose the following keep in mind I'm not familiar with Forgeworld units.
Ok so a Falcon is a non-dedicated transport that holds 5 dudes, which 5 dudes would be best put in it? Definitely not close combat tough-guys, since no Eldar vehicle currently has the "Assault Vehicle" rule.
See, what I really have a curiosity-boner for is how to use the new rule about Eldar and Dark Eldar using each-other's vehicles (even with turn 1 shuffling). Or just, do whatever you gotta do to get that Ivniz, then cast it on a HamGrot squad. Only hit 3W T5 guys on 6s ...oooohhh....ah ...ahhhh.
I don't think he was talking about you, Rancid. I think Shingen is trying to prod us towards the constructive building of some tactical guidelines, while keeping the thread from devolving into endless pages of complaining about how "screwed" our codex is.
As to your question, how about a Nightspinner? I've never seen one on the table top but they seem pretty nasty. Could be good against light vehicles. No transport capacity, but that and the Crimson Hunter look really good to me.
Jimsolo wrote: Okay Red, I hear what you're saying and I get that you think Ravagers are bad, Wyches are bad, and that the DE codex as a whole sucks.
Other than 'play an older edition,' do you have any constructive suggestions to contribute? How do you think we should be handling vehicles?
I am not knocking the book for it's content but rather its age. it was AWESOME until 6th hit, then it was decent. Now it's still LOADS of fun, but we are talking competitive here. It's a tactics thread, and honestly you can't expect the DE book to pull it out on its own any more without loaded dice or luck being greatly involved. Whether that's favorable match ups, or just getting those lucky 6's. Which annoys me as it urges you into allies or spamming units for redundancy which I hate.
I love fielding lists that minimize spam. So for the longest time I would field wracks, wyches and warriors from troops. A beast pack and bikes then a ravager and razorwing. Then whatever HQ I felt happy with, like the duke or lady malice or even Urien.
I also had a list that fielded 10 grotesques and a pair of heamis with WWP's. 6th killed that list and I am happy to run it now in 7th. But now in 7th the new vehicle damage rules have made it harder then it was even in 5th to take transports out. Again this forces us to use allies, or to spam AT guns and because our units are mispriced you aren't left with much pie crust to play with.
Last month I had great results with my DE until I drew a 4 imperial Knight list. After that one sided beating I realized how tough hulling out vehicles was for DE. Thanks to this thread I am actually excited to field a Reaper. I think thats our best AT as far as DE on their own. Now I am just trying to wrap my brain around what to do to keep it alive past turn 1.
Aside from AT we still shred infantry 6 ways from Sunday. I just hate am finding more and more vehicles in my way
If I DS them its not contributing until T2 with only a 67% chance it arrives, then It can scatter and lose its shot or mishap. Reserve might work, but I'd want to go full reserve with a coms relay to help me maintain my alpha strike.
Honestly I am starting to think full reserve is our best option in 7th. It allows us to keep the initiative so to speak, plus DE are best at the short game. Long 7 turn games usually go poorly for us. Hit them hard for a few turns and hope the game ends.
If I DS them its not contributing until T2 with only a 67% chance it arrives, then It can scatter and lose its shot or mishap. Reserve might work, but I'd want to go full reserve with a coms relay to help me maintain my alpha strike.
Honestly I am starting to think full reserve is our best option in 7th. It allows us to keep the initiative so to speak, plus DE are best at the short game. Long 7 turn games usually go poorly for us. Hit them hard for a few turns and hope the game ends.
These were my thoughts as well. Nearly everything in the army can deep strike, or like Reavers just have enough movement it doesn't matter. For an extra five points per vehicle if you lose the roll to go first you have the option to reserve/deepstrike based upon your opponent's deployment.
It was written for fifth edition, but with the rise of vehicles again it's becoming more relevant. There is also just good, general advice for deldar players.
1. Vect, Archon (Phantasm Grenade Laucher), Tantalus (Heavy Support, Forgeworld), 7x Wraithblades (Swords) - Archon gives unit Assault and Defensive Grenades, Tantalus is Armor 12 with 2 6 shot Disintegrators and has a capacity of 16! I think everyone can see where I am going with this one...
i believe as of the last FWFAQ to get their vehicles up to 6th Edition the Tantalus lost it's transport capacity.
1. Vect, Archon (Phantasm Grenade Laucher), Tantalus (Heavy Support, Forgeworld), 7x Wraithblades (Swords) - Archon gives unit Assault and Defensive Grenades, Tantalus is Armor 12 with 2 6 shot Disintegrators and has a capacity of 16! I think everyone can see where I am going with this one...
i believe as of the last FWFAQ to get their vehicles up to 6th Edition the Tantalus lost it's transport capacity.
Hmmm. I think that's obviously a type. Like the typo in the Flying Monstrous Creature rules in 6th edition that "technically" meant they didn't have Relentless or Smash. (Instead they had a single rule called 'Relentless Smash,' which I assure you is not written up anywhere. ) Nobody played it that way, and I wouldn't expect anyone to play the Tantalus without the transport capacity the book lists it as having.
I e-mailed Forgeworld to try to get clarification and i hope it is indeed a typo Jimsolo...cause that means i need to move it farther up in my WIP task list, lol.
The Tantalus rules were updated in the Imperial Armour Apocalypse book released last year and it has a transport capacity of 16.
If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
The Tantalus rules were updated in the Imperial Armour Apocalypse book released last year and it has a transport capacity of 16.
If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.
Regards,
Forge World"
Its way to expensive for an AV 12 open topped transport though. I think they priced it too high because as usual they put way to much stock in the attacks it can make. Basically you forgo picking up troops or shooting its awesome guns for a hit or miss sweep attack. its crazy that a dissy ravager is only 3 shots off from it as well. It should be more like 175 honestly.
However it would be fun to put 15 warriors and the duke in it. But again, why on earth can't it take splinter racks? Seriously?
In a non-trolly way, I like counting Kabalite Dark Lance guys as Eldar Rangers; if you model them right they look way more "sniperish".
Ok, so what's definitely tactically viable?
Venoms are still awesome, 65pts for 12 poison and a 5++.
Definitely FlickerFields on Raiders and Ravagers is pretty much a requirement since Jink is trash now (F you snap shots).
...and of course, something something BeastPack!
RancidHate wrote: In a non-trolly way, I like counting Kabalite Dark Lance guys as Eldar Rangers; if you model them right they look way more "sniperish".
Ok, so what's definitely tactically viable?
Venoms are still awesome, 65pts for 12 poison and a 5++.
Definitely FlickerFields on Raiders and Ravagers is pretty much a requirement since Jink is trash now (F you snap shots).
...and of course, something something BeastPack!
...but, I wanna come up with new wacky ideas...
I am with you on the new ideas as I am also in agreement on whats listed there as viable. I just find whats viable boring top play with in a 3 game RTT, by the end of game two all I feel I'm doing is rolling for two weapon profiles.
I am not so sold on deepstriking as others are though I am thinking we need an anchor on field to keep us from auto losing, while we reserve as much glass hammer as we can.
So lets start with the durable, what can be plunk down and have good to preferably great odds of survival until our reserves arrive? Lets keep it to DE only to start.
What do people think of using the dual FOC at low points to take a deathstar of triple Huskblade Archon+Vect in a Dais with 5 or 6 wracks to bump them up to give them FnP and majority toughness 4 for cheap. Something like this
I'm not silly enough to think its competitive, but it could be fun to just have a close combat Deathstar capable of tearing Abaddon a new one 3 times over in a 1500 point game. Mobility is obviously an issue once they dismount, but Dias is the best assault vehicle in the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Drk_Oblitr8r wrote: A Talos or Chronos, or even 3 Mandrakes if you can hide them properly.
Harlequin with Shadowseer on the back of the board is probably the best, although the isssue with any of these options is if you go second and your opponent reserves a deepstriker of his own, this tactic is screwed so you would have to not reserve a bunch of your deepstriking units, which is a waste of points on Retrofire jets and whatever else
Unless you take the Duke who has a bunch of other useful abilities I guess and lets you be flexible
Red Corsair wrote: I am with you on the new ideas as I am also in agreement on whats listed there as viable. I just find whats viable boring top play with in a 3 game RTT, by the end of game two all I feel I'm doing is rolling for two weapon profiles.
I am not so sold on deepstriking as others are though I am thinking we need an anchor on field to keep us from auto losing, while we reserve as much glass hammer as we can.
So lets start with the durable, what can be plunk down and have good to preferably great odds of survival until our reserves arrive? Lets keep it to DE only to start.
I prefer the Talos, a Reaver or two (especially if they are concealed behind terrain) or a Ravager or two with Night Shields. Not necessarily all at once, but all those are picks I've found to have a good chance of surviving turn 1.
On another note, if I was building competitively it would likely still involve dual FoC detachments. Its so easy for us, our troops are ace and Haemonculi cost 50 points.
Yeah its cheesy old flyer spam, but still - 4 super scoring T4 FnP troops, 4 super scoring Venoms, and up to 24x S7, re-rollable to wound, LARGE BLASTS at BS4 on turn two. This is melting a board. Mop up with the Venoms and Void Lances. Swap in implosion missiles, Razorwings, flickerfields, whatever to taste and meta. Seems like a solid building block for 1650 and higher.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't flyers only measure to objectives from their hull, not their base?
It also seems like a pretty heavy "Moneyshot" list. I mean, if your scatters roll well and you can rack up pearl necklaces every time, more power to you. But enough of them go wide to end up on the sheets or the headboard, and you're looking at a list that'd be long on promise and short on delivery.
Still, if you've got the dough for six Voidravens, it'd be a great sucker-punch list.
SHUPPET wrote: What do people think of using the dual FOC at low points to take a deathstar of triple Huskblade Archon+Vect in a Dais with 5 or 6 wracks to bump them up to give them FnP and majority toughness 4 for cheap. Something like this
I'm not silly enough to think its competitive, but it could be fun to just have a close combat Deathstar capable of tearing Abaddon a new one 3 times over in a 1500 point game. Mobility is obviously an issue once they dismount, but Dias is the best assault vehicle in the game.
LOL... if Battle Forged with unlimited detachment is allowed... this can get all sorts of interesting.
2000 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster
Detachment #1
HQ: Asdrubael Vect
1 Dais of Destruction (Raider) (Vehicle (Fast, Open-topped, Skimmer); 10 model capacity; Dark Lance x3; Jink)
HQ: Baron Sathonyx
Troops: Hellion
5 Hellion
Troops: Hellion
5 Hellion
Detachment #2
HQ: Archon
Huskblade; Phantasm Grenade Launcher; Shadow Field
Jimsolo wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't flyers only measure to objectives from their hull, not their base?
It also seems like a pretty heavy "Moneyshot" list. I mean, if your scatters roll well and you can rack up pearl necklaces every time, more power to you. But enough of them go wide to end up on the sheets or the headboard, and you're looking at a list that'd be long on promise and short on delivery.
Still, if you've got the dough for six Voidravens, it'd be a great sucker-punch list.
To some extent. But I think accounting that average 12 of them will roll a hit and 24 will scatter, then you can safely assume that 12 of these the scatter distance will be 6" which is only a scatter of 2" when you factor in BS4 which will likely do the job you are looking, and that anything on an even higher scale of scatter (up to 8") still has a possibility of landing on a different unit (although unlikely) then I think that it's not as "moneyshot" as you think. Of course, the luck of the dice can go either way from there, but that can happen no matter what you take. Large blasts are a lot more reliable than you might think. Even landing on 1 model is the equivalent of landing S7 re-rollable shot, which is good news.
You will also absolutely dominate the skies with all that S9 AP2 fire coming from the skies, and yourself only being hit on snapshots, you should be able to break down any Skyfire units the turn you land no problem.
Razorwings can shoot the same amount of Shatterfields for slightly cheaper. They might be a better option, taking a Voidraven only for an Implosion payload. Or just sticking with nothing but Shatterfields and taking 4 Voidravens + 2 Razorwings with Dissies. I'm not 100% sure the best way to do it. I do like S9 lances though.
I think its a pretty insane amount of shooting, however, especially for a single, early game turn. Just by weight of alpha I think you will likely wipe enough off the board to mop up half an army or less in the following turns with speedy glass cannons like Venoms.
I think it's the most competitive DE can get at the moment (but thats just my opinion).
SHUPPET wrote: What do people think of using the dual FOC at low points to take a deathstar of triple Huskblade Archon+Vect in a Dais with 5 or 6 wracks to bump them up to give them FnP and majority toughness 4 for cheap. Something like this
I'm not silly enough to think its competitive, but it could be fun to just have a close combat Deathstar capable of tearing Abaddon a new one 3 times over in a 1500 point game. Mobility is obviously an issue once they dismount, but Dias is the best assault vehicle in the game.
LOL... if Battle Forged with unlimited detachment is allowed... this can get all sorts of interesting.
2000 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster
Detachment #1
HQ: Asdrubael Vect
1 Dais of Destruction (Raider) (Vehicle (Fast, Open-topped, Skimmer); 10 model capacity; Dark Lance x3; Jink)
HQ: Baron Sathonyx
Troops: Hellion
5 Hellion
Troops: Hellion
5 Hellion
Detachment #2
HQ: Archon
Huskblade; Phantasm Grenade Launcher; Shadow Field
A beastpack with attached Autarch with shard is plenty enough to survive turn 1.
Sure its 400 pts but it will still make a mess when it moves up. Your opponent has the option turn 2 of shooting the beastpack or the 10 vehicles that just dropped in their faces.
Ill stick my DS list up on the first page in a bit.
Jimsolo wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't flyers only measure to objectives from their hull, not their base?
It also seems like a pretty heavy "Moneyshot" list. I mean, if your scatters roll well and you can rack up pearl necklaces every time, more power to you. But enough of them go wide to end up on the sheets or the headboard, and you're looking at a list that'd be long on promise and short on delivery.
Still, if you've got the dough for six Voidravens, it'd be a great sucker-punch list.
To some extent. But I think accounting that average 12 of them will roll a hit and 24 will scatter, then you can safely assume that 12 of these the scatter distance will be 6" which is only a scatter of 2" when you factor in BS4 which will likely do the job you are looking, and that anything on an even higher scale of scatter (up to 8") still has a possibility of landing on a different unit (although unlikely) then I think that it's not as "moneyshot" as you think. Of course, the luck of the dice can go either way from there, but that can happen no matter what you take. Large blasts are a lot more reliable than you might think. Even landing on 1 model is the equivalent of landing S7 re-rollable shot, which is good news.
You will also absolutely dominate the skies with all that S9 AP2 fire coming from the skies, and yourself only being hit on snapshots, you should be able to break down any Skyfire units the turn you land no problem.
Razorwings can shoot the same amount of Shatterfields for slightly cheaper. They might be a better option, taking a Voidraven only for an Implosion payload. Or just sticking with nothing but Shatterfields and taking 4 Voidravens + 2 Razorwings with Dissies. I'm not 100% sure the best way to do it. I do like S9 lances though.
I think its a pretty insane amount of shooting, however, especially for a single, early game turn. Just by weight of alpha I think you will likely wipe enough off the board to mop up half an army or less in the following turns with speedy glass cannons like Venoms.
I think it's the most competitive DE can get at the moment (but thats just my opinion).
SHUPPET wrote: What do people think of using the dual FOC at low points to take a deathstar of triple Huskblade Archon+Vect in a Dais with 5 or 6 wracks to bump them up to give them FnP and majority toughness 4 for cheap. Something like this
I'm not silly enough to think its competitive, but it could be fun to just have a close combat Deathstar capable of tearing Abaddon a new one 3 times over in a 1500 point game. Mobility is obviously an issue once they dismount, but Dias is the best assault vehicle in the game.
LOL... if Battle Forged with unlimited detachment is allowed... this can get all sorts of interesting.
2000 Pts - Dark Eldar Roster
Detachment #1
HQ: Asdrubael Vect
1 Dais of Destruction (Raider) (Vehicle (Fast, Open-topped, Skimmer); 10 model capacity; Dark Lance x3; Jink)
HQ: Baron Sathonyx
Troops: Hellion
5 Hellion
Troops: Hellion
5 Hellion
Detachment #2
HQ: Archon
Huskblade; Phantasm Grenade Launcher; Shadow Field
Automatically Appended Next Post: The only issue I see is that you need to be out the vehicle to cast Fortune etc. If the Dais dies turn 1 the expensive unit is probably going to die...
The multiple detachments are a great way to add strength to our armies. Too bad that most "events" want to limit them. Most tournaments would allow 2 "sources" so if we can develop something that is a dual Combined armes. TBH I would love to run something like this:
Got an interesting idea that may or may not be workable (or totally not within the rules).
BA players have been thinking about attaching a bunch of ICs to Mephiston now that the BRB doesn't forbid you from joining ICs to units of a single model. They're doing this mainly with Corbulo to get some nasty benefits in toughness from his FnP etc.
What if we tried to do something with that forever-alone character that no one ever uses: Kheradruakh the Decapitator?
The Decapitator's main schtick is that when you bring him in from reserves, you get to place him basically anywhere, like a super Infiltrate. However, it's not under the infiltrate rules or anything that I can tell, and you can certainly join ICs to units in reserves before the battle starts, so it should be possible to have Mr. Unused come in accompanied by a load of ICs. I'm not sure what the greatest use of this will be (certainly janky to the max), but there could be some fun combos there. I'm thinking Phoenix Lords.
Fuegan gives you two BS7 melta shots guaranteed in melta range on the rear armor of whatever you want. Karandras gives you some actual melee capabilities. All of the Phoenix Lords give you T4 W4 with 2+ armor. Are there any other DE or Eldar ICs that could use 100% accurate Deep Striking?
This is probably too expensive a tactic to be really worthwhile, and you're almost certainly throwing away your warlord, but it'll be funny.
Thariinye wrote: Got an interesting idea that may or may not be workable.
What if we tried to do something with that forever-alone character that no one ever uses: Kheradruakh the Decapitator?
The Decapitator's main schtick is that when you bring him in from reserves, you get to place him basically anywhere, like a super Infiltrate. However, it's not under the infiltrate rules or anything that I can tell, and you can certainly join ICs to units in reserves before the battle starts, so it should be possible to have Mr. Unused come in accompanied by a load of ICs. I'm not sure what the greatest use of this will be (certainly janky to the max), but there could be some fun combos there. I'm thinking Phoenix Lords.
Fuegan gives you two BS7 melta shots guaranteed in melta range on the rear armor of whatever you want. Karandras gives you some actual melee capabilities. All of the Phoenix Lords give you T4 W4 with 2+ armor. Are there any other DE or Eldar ICs that could use 100% accurate Deep Striking?
This is probably too expensive a tactic to be really worthwhile, and you're almost certainly throwing away your warlord, but it'll be funny.
BA players have been thinking about attaching a bunch of ICs to Mephiston now that the BRB doesn't forbid you from joining ICs to units of a single model. They're doing this mainly with Corbulo to get some nasty benefits in toughness from his FnP etc.
That's interesting, and also opens up the possibility of attaching a Haemonculus to a Talos for a pain token at the beginning of the game. I just might have to dust off my WWP and try running it again with some FnP Talos', Avatar and Wraithknights pouring out of it.
BA players have been thinking about attaching a bunch of ICs to Mephiston now that the BRB doesn't forbid you from joining ICs to units of a single model. They're doing this mainly with Corbulo to get some nasty benefits in toughness from his FnP etc.
That's interesting, and also opens up the possibility of attaching a Haemonculus to a Talos for a pain token at the beginning of the game. I just might have to dust off my WWP and try running it again with some FnP Talos', Avatar and Wraithknights pouring out of it.
Fast Attack Beastpack - 5x Beastmasters, 25x Khymerae
Only lance is the Dukes pistol...! But so much Haywire its untrue.
Essentially drop in practically everything turn 2, drop the Haemo near their Psykers and open the Crucible, by which time the Beastpack should be in charge range.
The chances of it dying and running off the board turn 1 are very slim due to them being Fearless, just make sure the Autarch is out of LOS and under a roof so he cant be Barrage Sniped or Precision Shot...
Totally crap against flyers however the vehicles are essentially a delivery mechanism, you can lock yourself in combat with the rest...
Just wondering what everyone thinks about it... Not tried it yet but considering most people I play dont take flyers it should work rather well...
Just a Primary and Allies the events near me will be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Might have to work something in here to do with Grotesques (which isn't the spam on the first page) as I played with them tonight and they minced 7 units in a 6 turn game (yay for multi assaults).
Love my big, furry, dopey guys, they rock...
Automatically Appended Next Post: My latest list is (1750). Good fun to play although I miss my Reavers...
Only played it in 6th Ed though tonight (6th Ed tournament at the weekend and playtesting). Tabled a Sternguard Drop Pod list turn 7 though, was good fun.
Grotesques killed 2 Drop Pods, 1 Stalker, 3 Squads of Sternguard and Pedro Kantor (Abberation kicked his ass in a challenge and he ran off the board).
Have you every tried mandrakes on a defense line?
3+ cover from the line + stealth, and BS4 on the quadgun. Once you pick up a token, you've got another 8 S4 AP4 shots. It's not fantastic, but does seem to be just good enough to justify putting those beautiful mandrakes on the table.
You can actually field Mandrakes in 7th Edition without them being totally useless.
One of the Strategic Warlord Traits allows a HQ and 3 Infantry units to Infiltrate, So get 3 squads of Mandrakes and 3 Haemonculi and infiltrate the Haemos with the Mandrakes, they have a pain token then and you can shoot turn 1.
Sitting behind a defense line is a bit of a waste.
HawaiiMatt wrote: Have you every tried mandrakes on a defense line?
3+ cover from the line + stealth, and BS4 on the quadgun. Once you pick up a token, you've got another 8 S4 AP4 shots. It's not fantastic, but does seem to be just good enough to justify putting those beautiful mandrakes on the table.
remember the quad gun now is BS1 if it is targeting a ground target.
HawaiiMatt wrote: Have you every tried mandrakes on a defense line?
3+ cover from the line + stealth, and BS4 on the quadgun. Once you pick up a token, you've got another 8 S4 AP4 shots. It's not fantastic, but does seem to be just good enough to justify putting those beautiful mandrakes on the table.
Did they change the ADL from 4+ to 3+? That'd be awesome. Nevertheless the stealth is pretty sweet.
If you've got a haemmy in your army though, would Wracks be a better choice? Same BS score, and they don't suck up a valuable elites slot, and although they don't have Stealth, they WILL come with FNP. Plus they would have Objective Secured.
I've thought for some time about putting Mandrakes with a haemmy into a list and just Outflanking with them. That way they'd still come in with a Pain Token.
Shingen wrote: You can actually field Mandrakes in 7th Edition without them being totally useless.
One of the Strategic Warlord Traits allows a HQ and 3 Infantry units to Infiltrate, So get 3 squads of Mandrakes and 3 Haemonculi and infiltrate the Haemos with the Mandrakes, they have a pain token then and you can shoot turn 1.
Sitting behind a defense line is a bit of a waste.
Mandrakes already have Infiltrate, and 7e say "Units that contain at least one model" Now I hope im not reading that wrong, but A Haemi will have Infiltrate if joined with Mandrakes.
Don't Mandrakes have Infiltrate already? I think Shingen's plan was to give Infiltrate to the three Haemmy's, and then they WOULD be able to Infiltrate with the Mandrakes, since they would both have it.
Jimsolo wrote: Don't Mandrakes have Infiltrate already? I think Shingen's plan was to give Infiltrate to the three Haemmy's, and then they WOULD be able to Infiltrate with the Mandrakes, since they would both have it.
I could be wrong though.
WEB WAY PORTAL CRAZYNESS!!!!
Ok, I'm going to have a look now at infiltrate to see if it's all possible.
Mandrakes have stealth, so do get the 3+ cover behind the wall.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well that was quick.
Page 166, An independent character without infiltrate cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment.
Hence the rolling on strategic, don't forget the reroll for battleforged. Alternatively WWP is viable, you just need to open one which isn't too difficult.
Shingen wrote: Hence the rolling on strategic, don't forget the reroll for battleforged. Alternatively WWP is viable, you just need to open one which isn't too difficult.
Hmm thats a fair point, should be able to get the infiltrate reasonably reliably. But just cant bank on it.
Out of interest;
I suppose I can infiltrate a HQ with a WWP? then turn one deploy it nice and close. Although it would be one hell of a firemagnet! maybe would have to be a HQ with a beastpack? Would be interesting to infiltrate a talos or cronos - 3 of em
Can I infiltrate a unit of warriors with a raider? Does the raider count as a unit in this sense? or is there simply a ruling that vehicles cannot be infiltrated in anyway?
Jimsolo wrote: Don't Mandrakes have Infiltrate already? I think Shingen's plan was to give Infiltrate to the three Haemmy's, and then they WOULD be able to Infiltrate with the Mandrakes, since they would both have it.
I could be wrong though.
WEB WAY PORTAL CRAZYNESS!!!!
Ok, I'm going to have a look now at infiltrate to see if it's all possible.
Mandrakes have stealth, so do get the 3+ cover behind the wall.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well that was quick.
Page 166, An independent character without infiltrate cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment.
So this thread is disappointing. Almost all the strategies outlined in the first post are about the Eldar or other allies. For someone who doesn't like mixing armies, it pretty much leaves me hooped.
The new codex better fix some things up or I guess I'm going to be playing another army.
Okay, but I think what Shingen was saying was that if you get the Warlord trait that lets you give out Infiltrate, you give it to the Haemmys. Then they will have Infiltrate, so they can join the Mandrakes.
Foo wrote: So this thread is disappointing. Almost all the strategies outlined in the first post are about the Eldar or other allies. For someone who doesn't like mixing armies, it pretty much leaves me hooped.
The new codex better fix some things up or I guess I'm going to be playing another army.
Don't be like that. The Eldar dex is undeniably OP. Because of which, at any competitive scene, you are going to do better taking them as allies - or just taking DE as allies to Eldar. That's what this thread is for, competitive strategies. I personally don't go allies as well, it's not hard to find ways to play like this. It isn't as if it turns you into an unplayable army lol
There is very little in our dex that cannot be used. DE is one of the best written dex's I've seen, almost everything is playable and balanced among itself very well. Look to the dex as opposed to a thread full of highest level tournament strategies, if unfluffy armies aren't your thing.
If you are going to ragequit DE because they aren't on Eldars's level of power, you probably should have done a bit more research to begin with as they have never been a major player.
Foo wrote: So this thread is disappointing. Almost all the strategies outlined in the first post are about the Eldar or other allies. For someone who doesn't like mixing armies, it pretty much leaves me hooped.
The new codex better fix some things up or I guess I'm going to be playing another army.
Don't be like that. The Eldar dex is undeniably OP. Because of which, at any competitive scene, you are going to do better taking them as allies - or just taking DE as allies to Eldar. That's what this thread is for, competitive strategies. I personally don't go allies as well, it's not hard to find ways to play like this. It isn't as if it turns you into an unplayable army lol
There is very little in our dex that cannot be used. DE is one of the best written dex's I've seen, almost everything is playable and balanced among itself very well. Look to the dex as opposed to a thread full of highest level tournament strategies, if unfluffy armies aren't your thing.
If you are going to ragequit DE because they aren't on Eldars's level of power, you probably should have done a bit more research to begin with as they have never been a major player.
I don't think it's unreasonable to see a thread called Dark Eldar tactics and assume it's about tactics for winning with Dark Eldar. If we were just talking about throwing some wracks into an Eldar list, then we'd just lump it in with the regular old Eldar tactics.
I don't think we should discount allies entirely, but I also think there's no reason a straight DE list can't play competitively.
To that end, coven lists are pretty rockin', still.
I've discovered that in the missions which use Tactical Objectives, Reavers are game-changing. Just dynamite. They can dominate the board almost every turn, and still inflict damage on the opponent while doing so.
I agree Jim, we can quite easily build a solo list. I would like to see more of it here as non-Eldar player and while all the posts about Eldar allies annoy me slightly, I understand thats what comes in a thread talking about competitive lists for a balanced army who has an OP battlebrother.
I don't have army builder, so I can't throw out army lists at the drop of a hat (with points values), but here's the bones of one I've used a few times.
Wracks, Haemonculus, Raider (Upgrade to taste. I prefer Liquifier gun; Liquifier Gun, Huskblade; and Night Shields plus Flicker Field, but it varies.) This whole unit can be duplicated two or three times.
Urien Rakarth, some uber-Grotesques, another Raider (again, upgrade to taste. I like a venom blade on my grots.)
Fortress of Redemption. Wracks in both silos, and another unit of wracks can be added to crew a battery of heavy bolters if you like. Don't bother with the tower upgrade, DO bother with the Krakstorm missiles.
One to three Ravagers. (I prefer the same upgrades at the raiders.)
Garnishes include a Talos Pain Engine (additional CCW and chain flails), or some Reavers (Cluster Caltrops).
All your units can use the building as a shield first turn. The Reavers focus on scoring, while everyone else focuses on taking out enemies. Since all raiders but Rakarth's are scoring, they can keep objectives for you while still providing some anti-armor fire.
The Ravagers, Rakarth's Grots, and the optional Talos do good anti-vehicle work, and since the Wracks will begin the game with Furious Charge (the ones not in the Fortress, anyway) they can bring down vehicles with rear armor 10 in a pinch. It should go without saying that Rakarth's first bonus token at the beginning of the game should go to his own unit, and any additional ones should go to the Wracks accompanying him to war.
I've played this list a couple of times, and it's won more than it's lost.
The idea of the Fortress in general is probably a good one. Had to read up on the rules as I never see it played.
I'm all for Heavy Bolter spammed, AP4 is nice. Is the 1 shot of S8 AP 3 large blast a turn really worth the 30 points + 30 points of wracks to man it though?
I can't find the rules for it in 7th, I'm just looking at my 6th book btw.
If you check the list at the top of the page that's a pure DE list I am using in a tournament this weekend, yesterday I played 3 won 2 (against 5 fmc nids and dakka dark angels) and I lost to a ETC Tau player so I'm not going to complain about that.
Got 2 more games to play today so we shall see how it goes.
Both winning games ended turn 5, Nids had 1 Mawloc left on 2 wounds and Dark Angels had 2 tactical marines left cowering behind a wrecked land raider.
DE can still cut it solo, it's just not a cakewalk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll do some specific solo builds for those who don't like allies as well.
As I play competitively almost exclusively (except when mates and beer is involved) I of course have to include allies.
SHUPPET wrote: I'm all for Heavy Bolter spammed, AP4 is nice. Is the 1 shot of S8 AP 3 large blast a turn really worth the 30 points + 30 points of wracks to man it though?
My opinion? Yes. The Wracks give you the ability to pick your target instead of having to shoot at the nearest enemy, and I can frequently negotiate my targets so that even a scatter will still net me some hits. The more threats I can bring to the table, the more I can dilute my enemy's target priority lists.
Is 1x S8 AP3 large blast really better than say the cost of 6 Shatterfield Missiles tho (random example)? I really just like to make my points count where I spend them, it seems like a costly upgrade for 60 pts. I mean its 3/5 the cost of another Ravager (obviously you already have 3) or 4 blasters. I agree saturating threats but I'm not sure hat Krakstorms work for us as well, being a largely aggressive glass cannon army I think thats 60 points of upgrades better spent on something more shooty.
If you see a lot of single target units, I would agree. I don't know your meta, obviously. Personally, I run into a lot of horde or mechanized armies. And against either a mosh pit OR an attack squadron, it can dish out some serious damage.
I think that if you wanted to go just with the frag missiles, that would be an option too. I think that I'd still buy some wracks to crew it (compare the cost of wrack crew to almost any other unit, and the other unit will always be more expensive, worse BS, or suck up a valuable FOC slot) so I can pick my targets. I know I LOVE to make sure the closest unit to a sentry weapon is a unit the sentry weapon can't hurt, and I'd hate to wind up the victim of that someday.
Yeah I checked out the other tactics threads and none of them are as ripe as this thread with non army specific choices. When reading the first posts of this thread it seems most of viable "tactics" being listed are "buy eldar".
Read this thread. Its more like how to ally with DE. Not a thread about DE tactics.
And seriously my opinion isn't any less worthy than yours. So please keep the nasty name calling to yourself!
Pancakey wrote: Yeah I checked out the other tactics threads and none of them are as ripe as this thread with non army specific choices. When reading the first posts of this thread it seems most of viable "tactics" being listed are "buy eldar".
Read this thread. Its more like how to ally with DE. Not a thread about DE tactics.
And seriously my opinion isn't any less worthy than yours. So please keep the nasty name calling to yourself!
Rainbows!
But your opinion IS both argumentative and off-topic. You've made your feelings known.
If you'd like to start a thread about pure Dark Eldar tactics, then by all means feel free. If you'd like to suggest some pure Dark Eldar lists, combinations, or tactical suggestions, then please do so. If you want, you can check out the Dark City website, since they have a much more Dark Eldar focus to their discussions.
If all you want to do is complain that we aren't discussing this topic the way you want us to, then you've successfully made that opinion known, and there's no further need to repeat it.
In particular I am interested to see viability of D-Scythes coming through (Battle Focus with Spiritseers turn 2 into someones face).
Also if anyone has tried anything with none standard fortifications, I have not started looking at those yet and the quad lascannon one has caught my eye for anti flyer work...
I've been dicking around with a WWP list. It features a Haemmy in a Bastion with an Escape Hatch. That combo enables the Haemmy to get further out than a vehicle would, and still drop the WWP.
Haven't tried it with Eldar yet, I've been mostly toying around with straight DE and DE/SM. (Although CWE are on my list to try.)
Building deploys at the edge of your deployment zone. Escape hatch deploys 12 inches out from the building.
Haemmy comes out on the far side of the hatch, gets to move his 6" (so long as he winds up wholly within 6" of the hatch) and still drop the portal. Depending on what marker you use for your escape hatch, you're getting 18-20 inches outside of your deployment zone and still dropping the portal.
A Raider, on the other hand, can swivel for the extra pivot distance (say, 3"), move 6" and disembark the Haemmy, who can get another 6" and drop the portal. You're getting an extra 3-5 inches with the building (more if your group frowns on pivot-distance shenanigans).
The building, outfitted with a Void Shield (and Wracks to crew those bolters, of course!) is a little tougher than the Raider.
Fortifications Some pieces of scenery are called fortifications. These can be included in a player’s army or used as pieces of ‘neutral’ scenery controlled by neither side. If a fortification is taken as part of an army, then it is set up with the rest of the units in the army using the same deployment rules as the other models.
I think you are wrong on that one.
Ok I thought you were missing a step and putting the Talos straight in.
The big issue with putting a WWP too close to their DZ, (and the WWP in general) is movement rules.
A lot of the time they will have no problem bubble wrapping it, and guess what. Your Talos is now entering play from your table edge, turn 2 at best. In other words, complete waste of his points. Jump units work better, but they often have the mobility to get there by then anyway and be able to assault afterwards if they hadn't come through the portal. Don't put it far enough up the field and there is no point to deploying it at all.
I think it plays against what we do best, speedy transports and target saturation. I'm just not sold - I mean what are we actually bringing through the portal? Talos's are the obvious answer, and if anything goes awry they are the definiton of a large amount of wasted points (and critical FOC slots).
I think that Bastion thing is a good idea though, as it secures the WWP if you go second (at least, far more so than putting him in a Raider does). I wouldn't run a WWP without that and at least two Portals though, deployed midfield or a bit further (depending on opponents army composition) in opposite directions (i.e. left and right) to make bubblewraping the Portals a non-issue.
What else are we bringing through tho than Talos's, to make the points cost of a Bastion + two Webway Portals +two Haemy's that are obviously giving up first blood, translate into being worth the actual army value handicap?
It seems like almost everything we have has great mobility anyway with our Transports being not only fast but well worth their points in firepower as well. Massed Grotesques maybe? Since you can only fit 5 in a Raider?
I don't know, if we had more options that could abuse the WWP I'd be all for it. As I don't believe the WWP works for non-BB allies as it stands, I don't see it ever being worth it's points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: NOTE: Willing to be convinced otherwise though! It's a cool tactic and I would like to use it again
What do you guys think about just running a bunch of beast masters and khymeras with no farseer support. Two farseers on jet bikes with weapons is going to cost you about the same points as 20 khymera and 4 beast masters. Fortune only makes them 50% more survivable so doubling the numbers is better than fortune. Invisible against bs 4 more than doubles the khymera survivability but you can not guarantee that you get invisible or that it won't get denied so maybe double khymeras is just better on that behalf. As for killing power you need both misfortune and prescience to make the khymeras + farseers better than just the 2 beast packs.
2 beast packs would allow you to cover more of the board. Assault more unites earlier and would be less reliant on getting the right powers. Basically you end up with some slightly more fragile but more killy khorn dogs, which has never been bad.
My question would be what unites can take the assault from the beast pack and kill the beast pack? Will it outright kill the beast pack or will it just not die to the pack?
Shingen wrote: That was in respect of the beastpack. They can't even wound t6 except for flocks
The kymera are str4, the beastmasters are str3. Both can wound T6. T7, only the kymera or beastmasters with FC can wound. T8 is just the rending.
Really not an issue almost ever. T can get shot up by possion, flocks have enough attacks to rend stuff down, and the pack usually has hit and run just incase.
I toyed around with the web way. No as much for reserves, as for the impassable terrain.
I ran 3, and it worked wonders at blocking the scoring land raiders.
Turn 1, haemonculi jumped into the hyjacked raider, leaving a pain token behind.
Turn 2, he disembarks and starts to jam up paths of the advance for you primitive races without skimmers.
Shingen wrote: That was in respect of the beastpack. They can't even wound t6 except for flocks
The kymera are str4, the beastmasters are str3. Both can wound T6. T7, only the kymera or beastmasters with FC can wound. T8 is just the rending.
Really not an issue almost ever. T can get shot up by possion, flocks have enough attacks to rend stuff down, and the pack usually has hit and run just incase.
Shingen wrote: That was in respect of the beastpack. They can't even wound t6 except for flocks
The kymera are str4, the beastmasters are str3. Both can wound T6. T7, only the kymera or beastmasters with FC can wound. T8 is just the rending.
Really not an issue almost ever. T can get shot up by possion, flocks have enough attacks to rend stuff down, and the pack usually has hit and run just incase.
Am I the only one who buys Agonizers?
Anymore? I just can't justify the points. When they were AP 2, sure. But since they don't pen 2+ armor anymore, I think I'd rather have a Venom Blade and score more wounds, and reallocate my 20 points elsewhere.
That being said, Agonizer equipped models are still in my case, in case there's suddenly an uptick in Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures in my local meta. (Not being Poisoned, they still wound on a 4+)
Shingen wrote: That was in respect of the beastpack. They can't even wound t6 except for flocks
The kymera are str4, the beastmasters are str3. Both can wound T6. T7, only the kymera or beastmasters with FC can wound. T8 is just the rending.
Really not an issue almost ever. T can get shot up by possion, flocks have enough attacks to rend stuff down, and the pack usually has hit and run just incase.
Am I the only one who buys Agonizers?
Anymore? I just can't justify the points. When they were AP 2, sure. But since they don't pen 2+ armor anymore, I think I'd rather have a Venom Blade and score more wounds, and reallocate my 20 points elsewhere.
That being said, Agonizer equipped models are still in my case, in case there's suddenly an uptick in Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures in my local meta. (Not being Poisoned, they still wound on a 4+)
yeah, Agonizers havent been in vogue for many years now. It's venom blade, husk blade or no blade.
Gargantuan creatures aside, my case if full of just about everything that looks cool. I just rarely open it these days.
lambsandlions wrote: So what do helions do? Are they supposed to get into combat or just fly around shooting things?
I'd say it depends on what you're fighting. Given their great speed, mine usually wind up chasing down enemies that try to run and hide. They also have a distressing tendency to find themselves taking on vehicles, given that they are one of the few units that can affect rear armor 10 even without drugs or tokens. (Although the drugs and tokens can sure help!)
If you have the Baron, they're also the most mobile scoring unit, I believe.
lambsandlions wrote: So what do helions do? Are they supposed to get into combat or just fly around shooting things?
I'd say it depends on what you're fighting. Given their great speed, mine usually wind up chasing down enemies that try to run and hide. They also have a distressing tendency to find themselves taking on vehicles, given that they are one of the few units that can affect rear armor 10 even without drugs or tokens. (Although the drugs and tokens can sure help!)
If you have the Baron, they're also the most mobile scoring unit, I believe.
Objective secured scoring unit you mean. They're decent for swooping in and pinging a unit, but they are still incredibly fragile like most deldar units.
lambsandlions wrote: So what do helions do? Are they supposed to get into combat or just fly around shooting things?
I'd say it depends on what you're fighting. Given their great speed, mine usually wind up chasing down enemies that try to run and hide. They also have a distressing tendency to find themselves taking on vehicles, given that they are one of the few units that can affect rear armor 10 even without drugs or tokens. (Although the drugs and tokens can sure help!)
If you have the Baron, they're also the most mobile scoring unit, I believe.
Objective secured scoring unit you mean. They're decent for swooping in and pinging a unit, but they are still incredibly fragile like most deldar units.
Sorry, I did in fact mean super scoring. And I figured the fragility went without saying, being Dark Eldar and all.
Jimsolo wrote: Building deploys at the edge of your deployment zone. Escape hatch deploys 12 inches out from the building.
Haemmy comes out on the far side of the hatch, gets to move his 6" (so long as he winds up wholly within 6" of the hatch) and still drop the portal. Depending on what marker you use for your escape hatch, you're getting 18-20 inches outside of your deployment zone and still dropping the portal.
A Raider, on the other hand, can swivel for the extra pivot distance (say, 3"), move 6" and disembark the Haemmy, who can get another 6" and drop the portal. You're getting an extra 3-5 inches with the building (more if your group frowns on pivot-distance shenanigans).
The building, outfitted with a Void Shield (and Wracks to crew those bolters, of course!) is a little tougher than the Raider.
See, this gak right here is the stuff I expect to see! Creative use of the materials at hand. This is worth exploring more...
With dark eldar as the primary detachment, what do you think it better. Reaver jetbikes or windrider jetbikes? Do talos pain engines or chronos parasite engines have any place on the table?
Everybody has yet to answer what else needs or is even notably improved by coming through a WWP, so until you can work that out you can just include the price of the WWP and the guy carrying it and the Bastion or whatever as part of the Talos Pain Engines price tag. Making them one of the worst units in the dex.
Its no fault of their own, we just have hardly anything else worth bringing through a portal to justify the strategy.
SHUPPET wrote: Everybody has yet to answer what else needs or is even notably improved by coming through a WWP, so until you can work that out you can just include the price of the WWP and the guy carrying it and the Bastion or whatever as part of the Talos Pain Engines price tag. Making them one of the worst units in the dex.
Its no fault of their own, we just have hardly anything else worth bringing through a portal to justify the strategy.
this is what ive been thinking, I mainly started a E/DE force with Duke and DSing in mind, but with the change to transports and WWP I was really hoping that there would be some useful combos, but sadly i think you hit the nail on the head, the cost needed to simply make it seem viable is just not worth it, you need the fortifications, the IC with the WWP, then most likely sacrifice the dude with the WWP along with possibly first blood simply to put it down.
I had considered Duke with autarch for reserve manipulations, DSing turn 2 a IC with the WWP, but even then it'll be Turn 3 before models are coming out of the WWP, at which point it would probably have been easier to simply DS them in with raiders to ensure you have enough target saturation turn 2. haing half the army arrive late just makes it easy for the enemy to pick which units to destroy. Gah :( I love the idea of the WWP and pouring troops into the ranks of the enemy, but still doen't seem viable.
I do however, like the idea of sticking Maugan Ra with a unit of trueborn with splinter cannons in a venom. sitting at range simply hammering out poison shots, with Maugan Ra able to split fire his Str 6 or combine with them to really bring the hurt down on a unit. , as I think Maugan Ra in a unit of dark reapers doesn't fit very well considering the different target priorities.
SHUPPET wrote: Everybody has yet to answer what else needs or is even notably improved by coming through a WWP, so until you can work that out you can just include the price of the WWP and the guy carrying it and the Bastion or whatever as part of the Talos Pain Engines price tag. Making them one of the worst units in the dex.
Its no fault of their own, we just have hardly anything else worth bringing through a portal to justify the strategy.
Hordes of MSU unburdened by points sunk into DTs?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lambsandlions wrote: With dark eldar as the primary detachment, what do you think it better. Reaver jetbikes or windrider jetbikes? Do talos pain engines or chronos parasite engines have any place on the table?
I say Reavers. They have a worse armor save, but still have a 3+ cover save, and can Turbo-boost across half the board. They can still attack after Jinking, and have easy access to FNP and Furious Charge.
Windriders are super-scoring and have a better armor save. In addition, they can more reliably do second-string duty against AV 10 vehicles.
The burden of our transports? Do you mean our amazing 65 pt Venoms that will actually make back their points, unlike a Bastion + 1 or 2 fishfood Haemonculi and WWP's. Which is my point, you are handicapping yourself a couple of hundred points for units that already have ample mobility. The fact that you suggest MSU is just the icing on the cake as it's practically the style of list our best transport is designed for. Also, anything that doesn't come in turn 2 is easily denied by blocking the WWP, and that's if they couldn't bubblewrap it on their first turn and deny your entire army.
I do think the allies suggestion is the way to make it worthwhile however. Anyone got any suggestions of what DScyghe Wraithguard might need to compliment them? Or just bring 30 WG through a portal turn 2
SHUPPET wrote: The burden of our transports? Do you mean our amazing 65 pt Venoms that will actually make back their points, unlike a Bastion + 1 or 2 fishfood Haemonculi and WWP's. Which is my point, you are handicapping yourself a couple of hundred points for units that already have ample mobility. The fact that you suggest MSU is just the icing on the cake as it's practically the style of list our best transport is designed for. Also, anything that doesn't come in turn 2 is easily denied by blocking the WWP, and that's if they couldn't bubblewrap it on their first turn and deny your entire army.
I do think the allies suggestion is the way to make it worthwhile however. Anyone got any suggestions of what DScyghe Wraithguard might need to compliment them? Or just bring 30 WG through a portal turn 2
Well my plan is the tantalus with 7 wraithguard, spiritseer and possiby some other IC, either DE or E. possibly Maugan Ra, for a nice 2+ save, his shooting and splitfire. (question, can i split fire and the target be a unit from a transport i just popped with the wraiths? i dont got the new BRB yet, but im sure its probably not possible? as technically im still firing all shots same time, just multiple targets due to splitfire.) Plus the wraith's if I went iyan supp, can look out sir any AP shots.
Or I might take an archon or haemi with the wraiths in the tantalus, prevent them getting tarpitted.
I know the tantalus is a little overcosted as it is, but still the idea of dropping it in alongside the duke and raiders/venoms is just too complelling
Just noticed the FAQ restrictions on upgrades for the dais appear to be missing. Does this mean we can now upgrade as per a raider as it says in the rulebook?
Shingen wrote: Just noticed the FAQ restrictions on upgrades for the dais appear to be missing. Does this mean we can now upgrade as per a raider as it says in the rulebook?
Depends on your group. I think some groups are going to want to take a common-sense approach and still play it the old way, while others will play it strictly by the RAW.
Granted, but by RAW, if your Land Raider gets Hull Pointed to death, the guys inside can launch an assault during their opponent's assault phase.
(And last edition, Flying Monstrous Creatures were denied by Relentless and Smash...according to strict RAW. Also, the Sanguine Sword psychic power lasted all game.)
Point is, I don't know any group, anywhere, EVER, that plays everything strict RAW. I don't think it's unreasonable to take clarifications from the last round of FAQs and assume that they were left out due to copy-paste negligence. I think it seems reasonable in this case.
That being said, if it doesn't shake out that way? Best believe that beast is going in MY lists.
Hey all, been reading this thread both yesterday and today and had a few points i wanted to bring up, as well as get involved with discussing my main armies new tactics since the change (also new to the forum as a whole).
I kind of noticed how the discussion turned away from AT and just to general tactics, as my Meta involves a fair amount of vehicles i just wanted to weigh in on this as some of the suggestions/dismissals i didnt feel were quite right based on my area. I find haywire to be almost unbeatable - i run a reaper in almost every game and it will usually take out at least a vehicle, though i will loos it soon after that, same i find for 5 wytches - in 6th the first game i came across a knight i sacrificed 5 wytches to blow it, and it took out some of his troops too - thanks to that apocolyptic explosion!! See the thing i find with these sort of units is yes - as has been mentioned - they are very weak and can get taken out pretty easily, but thats why they need protecting - iirc the rules only state you need to say what is in a transport but not what everything is equipped with (correct me if im wrong) as long as your list is printed by your side then all is happy, dont tell them that the wytches have haywires and they wont worry about it zooming round the side towards the tanks and a few infantry units. Also i use the reaper as a distraction "check this bad mutha..... Its gonna kill all your tanks" oh and please ignore the grots, incubi, truborn etc over there. I think haywire is our best AT, and ive been happy to see some lists posted using a lot of it. Just be sure to hide them behind the wrecks they create - hell i even clambered some wytches over one wreck once to get to another cause i caused a route on the board to get blocked up with wrecked tanks from 5 wytches. Haywire FTW - just be careful with how it moves across the board - and never forget the power of psycology - big up some unit you have, boast about it, brag about its success to your opponent, essentially make them worry about it and shoot at that instead.
Someone mentioned Wracks with FC against vehicles - wracks dont benefit fro FC - they have poisoned attacks, am i right there or missing something?
Going to have to post later, on my phone at the moment and its a pain to keep track lol, but im liking the tactics here, and would like to add some of my own that i think could be of use
Interesting, so FC they have S5 that i can use rather than the poisoned 4+? i like thins, makes 5 some pretty nifty tank killers...!!!
Quick question about the Eldar allies - Warlocks state pre PRIMARY detachment, but primary detachments have kinda disappeared in 7th habit they so how does that work?
Vraneth wrote: Interesting, so FC they have S5 that i can use rather than the poisoned 4+? i like thins, makes 5 some pretty nifty tank killers...!!!
Quick question about the Eldar allies - Warlocks state pre PRIMARY detachment, but primary detachments have kinda disappeared in 7th habit they so how does that work?
Edited: changed a typo
Your primary detachment is your first Combined Arms detachment, and is the one with your Warlord in it. If that detachment is Eldar, then you may take a Warlock Council.
Someone mentioned Wracks with FC against vehicles - wracks dont benefit fro FC - they have poisoned attacks, am i right there or missing something?
Thats correct. They shoudnt be able to do any demage.
They still have a strength value. Just because someone puts toxin sacs on a Carnifex doesn't suddenly mean it's impotent against vehicles.
Wracks are S3, with 1 attack base, and 2 weapons. That's 2 attacks, 3 on the charge.
If you get a 2nd pain token (they start with 1), then they gain furious charge, making them S4 on the charge.
It would take 9 charging wracks (27 S4 attacks) to hull point out a rear armor 10 3hp vehicle.
Grotesques (the big guys), are S5 (S6 on the furious charge) and hull out vehicles much more effectively for the points.
Someone mentioned Wracks with FC against vehicles - wracks dont benefit fro FC - they have poisoned attacks, am i right there or missing something?
Thats correct. They shoudnt be able to do any demage.
They still have a strength value. Just because someone puts toxin sacs on a Carnifex doesn't suddenly mean it's impotent against vehicles.
Wracks are S3, with 1 attack base, and 2 weapons. That's 2 attacks, 3 on the charge.
If you get a 2nd pain token (they start with 1), then they gain furious charge, making them S4 on the charge.
It would take 9 charging wracks (27 S4 attacks) to hull point out a rear armor 10 3hp vehicle.
Grotesques (the big guys), are S5 (S6 on the furious charge) and hull out vehicles much more effectively for the points.
Surely though RAW Wracks shouldn't be able to - don't have my dex to hand but do have the rulebook. And iirc Wracks are equipped with "Two poisoned (4+) Close-Combat weapons" And I've just checked the rulebook which states that unless otherwise stated poisoned weapons are treated as having a Strength of 1 and that the poisoned special rule has no effect against vehicles. (P169 BRB) as far as i was aware there is no otherwise stated for wracks CC weapons is there?
I agree that wracks would do a better job of it - undoubtedly. But that doesn't mean that (if allowed) wracks couldn't give it a go at taking a tank down - may not be the most effective option, but if they are in the area it could be a good idea to give it a go - stats and Mathhammer are great and all - but dice don't always fall as they should lol.
R.E. the warlocks thats a bit annoying, would need to go unbound for my idea then, which is a bit of a pain lets face it. Wanted to add a few to boost the mastery levels in my army for better dice
Vraneth wrote: Surely though RAW Wracks shouldn't be able to - don't have my dex to hand but do have the rulebook. And iirc Wracks are equipped with "Two poisoned (4+) Close-Combat weapons" And I've just checked the rulebook which states that unless otherwise stated poisoned weapons are treated as having a Strength of 1 and that the poisoned special rule has no effect against vehicles. (P169 BRB) as far as i was aware there is no otherwise stated for wracks CC weapons is there?
They can't use the Poison's 4+ against Vehicles, which doesn't mean they suddenly lose all their inherent Strength.
But you do need a CC weapon or a gun to use as one to attack right? Is not his only weapon poison? Which vehicles are immune to, regardless of the strength of the poison attack.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm thinking I'm wrong here but it's never come up for me, I think I may be wrong about units needing a weapon to attack, in which case he can whack vehicles no prob
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I don't have dex on me, do they have a poison weapon or just a special rule stating they have poison attacks
Ah don't get me wrong i wanna stick to DE specific armies, but allies can happen, and if they enhance the list then there is no problem with that. i still think that we are able to be competitive as a pure DE army - i don't think its easy, but definitely do-able. And lets face it when has playing DE ever been easy, they aren't a forgiving army, one mistake can ruin the game for you - happens to me affair bit - dice go wrong or i make a simple mistake, doesn't mean imma rage quit them, but also doesn't mean I'm not going to look where i can get some aid from.
Rancid - thats a nice looking basis there, and generally what i have gone for in the past (apart from beast packs - the are going on the purchase list soon), usually provides enough of a poke to wipe anything off the board. but as others have said it can get fairly dull playing the same all the time, i like to switch it up, and yeah it might mean i loose, but i have fun doing it, and its just a game - plus i always know i can drop back to the, shall we say "status-quo" army list and rack up some wins
SHUPPET wrote: But you do need a CC weapon or a gun to use as one to attack right? Is not his only weapon poison? Which vehicles are immune to, regardless of the strength of the poison attack.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm thinking I'm wrong here but it's never come up for me, I think I may be wrong about units needing a weapon to attack, in which case he can whack vehicles no prob
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I don't have dex on me, do they have a poison weapon or just a special rule stating they have poison attacks
Wracks have 2 poisoned ccw, irrelevant of that they are s3 and with furious charge then can glance vehicles to death. You just use your base strength, everything has a fist or something to wack with.
hmm, thats interesting. But getting slightly of topic, tempted to start a new thread about it. Can you opt to not use the CC weapons your equipped with? I can't see anything in the rules to back that up.
The Poisoned rule says the weapon is St 1 'unless otherwise stated.'
Doesn't it state on the Wrack's unit profile that they are Strength 3? It seems like the Wrack weapons are just generic CC weapons (profile page 404 in the digital edition) with the Poisoned (4+) rule. That profile lists the strength as 'user.'
So how come you are allowed to use that strength (for something other than re-rolling) when you are against tanks, but not allowed to against infantry?
You can't just say that because the poison doesn't work it must mean I get to use my S value for attacking instead, if the poison doesn't affect tanks then it does nothing, the strength behind it is solely a representation of re-roll capability against toughness right.
You can, if you are hitting a t2 model you would wound on a 3+ although you can reroll poison if you don't get a 3 because of the poison rule. For example a Hive Tyrant with Toxin Sacs will still wound a marine on a 2+ irrespective of poison.
Poison weapons are indeed s1, the guy thrusting the weapon is not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's only shooting poison attacks that are 4+ strength 1, not combat poison.
SHUPPET wrote: So how come you are allowed to use that strength (for something other than re-rolling) when you are against tanks, but not allowed to against infantry?
You can't just say that because the poison doesn't work it must mean I get to use my S value for attacking instead, if the poison doesn't affect tanks then it does nothing, the strength behind it is solely a representation of re-roll capability against toughness right.
I'm not saying that you can always just choose to use the S value. I'm saying that, against infantry, Poisoned Weapons always wound on a fixed number. Against vehicle, this rule has no effect, and the weapon is S1 unless otherwise noted. And close combat weapons are always otherwise noted.
This isn't a case of not using the weapon and just choosing to use your base Strength as an alternative. If, for example, you had a model with Strength 6 and his only CC weapon was Poisoned (4+), and he hit an infantry model with T4, he does not get to 'default' to his base Strength and wound on a 2+. (Unless he has a generic CC weapon to choose from.) He is forced to use his Poisoned weapon's 4+ (although with a reroll to wound).
Models are only assumed to have a 'generic' CC weapon if they don't have another one listed, so in the case of a the S6 hand-to-hand scenario, I think he'd be stuck rolling his wounds at a 4+ (with rerolls). I could be wrong, though.
Ok here's how it is, the splinter rifles fire thin slivers of poison that are able to rend flesh and get the poison directly into the target's body. Thin, tiny, almost no mass slivers, can you ever, EVER imagine a tank getting a glance from a sliver like that? No.
Now wracks are S3, human strength. With 2 pain tokens, s4, super human strength. Now imagine these super humans smashing these giant blades into the treads of a tank, we're talking some seriously nice metal blades made by the dark eldar, not some pansy bronze metal, some real hard metal. That's where the glance comes from. Maybe they tear into the treads, maybe they find a chink in the armor, who knows?
The point I'm trying to make, is that it's fluffy for splinter rifles to do jack gak and the wracks to be able to hack away at a tank and do something. End of story, get back to actual tactics.
The court can throw out a lot of damage from shooting and templates and with Haemo's in there are well they could work but that would mean a Tantalus or a Raider to get them there.
They are not too shabby in CC either, Lhameans are one of the best units in the codex for their points, its just a shame you have to take Ur'Ghuls at he same time as they are pretty dire (except for sticking at the front and dying before anything else).
I will get the models at some point just for my presentation board but I doubt I would ever use them unless drunk.
Its a shame really, they are probably the best models in the DE range...
Just read through the codex again, it's been awhile since I've last done that. just noticed some things that I never really considered before.
first if you do take the Court of the Archon, all shooting and CC attacks made by the Archon are 2+ to wound, would this also work with grenades? skip the phantasm, give him the haywire to get a 2+ wound blast going. Also you could give him either the electrocorrosive whip which would also be wounding on a 2+ and with 6 attacks on the charge that sounds like a lot of fun for MC's right there. Basically stops ID in CC. Otherwise, the power weapon could be interesting, wounding on 2+
Another thing I never noticed, was that Drazhar was str4 and with demiklaives becomes str6 and with FC becomes str7, some serious choppa right there, even more with his onslaught ability. Get him in the tantalus for THE MOST EXPENSIVE, THE MOST FRAGILE, deathstar that I can think of.
Mindphase Gauntlet on an ancient Haemi would also be interesting, if you managed to pull that off on an expensive initiative 4 IC, I would be infinitely impressed
finally the last thing I considered was Shatterfield Missles for the Razorwing, being able to glance vehicles with that str7 blast on IG gun lines might prove invaluable for a mere 20 points for 4 of them.
@Jancoran I really liked your blog, it really helps show how versatile DE are, keep up the good work!
Barrywise wrote: @Jancoran I really liked your blog, it really helps show how versatile DE are, keep up the good work!
Spanks. there's a lot of good stuff there. i dont put things up daily like some blogs, usually a few a month, but it makes the content more useful than just bombing you endlessly with rumors.
I liked your assessment Janc. I'm not convinced fully of the viability of Webway delivered units (it just hasn't worked out for me yet...) but it still seems solid on paper. Glad to see someone else not acting like I'm crazy for touting the utility of Rakarth's Uber-Grotesques! The only one I really couldn't agree on was Sslyth. I think the baggage they bring (in the form of the rest of the Court) is just too much to make them worth it.
Have you considered Hellions, btw? They can threaten up to Armor 10, 11 if they have Furious Charge or the +1 Strength drug. And Sathonyx can threaten 11 from the jump. I've had consistent good results from them in the anti-vehicle department.
Urien + Grotesques are awesome. I use 7 foot slogging Grotesques myself.
The Sslyth... you should try it. That flamer is not a bad deal and the unit can take on a LOT of different types of foes, not just vehicles. Give them a shot.
Grotesques taken for anti Wave Serpent duty isn't that great. A squad of Wyches will wreck one, why overkill the hell out of it with Urien Grots... I mean if you only take 1 Raider of Grots it's getting nuked their turn 1 and it's cargo has to run the rest of the way or get shot in the open and it could have been 2 squads of Wyches, if you take 3 squads, you could have taken like 5-6 Wyches. We will only win by target saturation not by putting overkill units in Raider.
SHUPPET wrote: Grotesques taken for anti Wave Serpent duty isn't that great. A squad of Wyches will wreck one, why overkill the hell out of it with Urien Grots... I mean if you only take 1 Raider of Grots it's getting nuked their turn 1 and it's cargo has to run the rest of the way or get shot in the open and it could have been 2 squads of Wyches, if you take 3 squads, you could have taken like 5-6 Wyches. We will only win by target saturation not by putting overkill units in Raider.
"They'll get shot out of their Raider turn 1" seems to be the go-to argument against Grotesques. It just doesn't shake out that way for me. Maybe I'm just lucky. But I consistently--across many games--get good results from the grotesques.
