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 lambsandlions wrote:
So what do helions do? Are they supposed to get into combat or just fly around shooting things?

I'd say it depends on what you're fighting. Given their great speed, mine usually wind up chasing down enemies that try to run and hide. They also have a distressing tendency to find themselves taking on vehicles, given that they are one of the few units that can affect rear armor 10 even without drugs or tokens. (Although the drugs and tokens can sure help!)

If you have the Baron, they're also the most mobile scoring unit, I believe.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
So what do helions do? Are they supposed to get into combat or just fly around shooting things?

I'd say it depends on what you're fighting. Given their great speed, mine usually wind up chasing down enemies that try to run and hide. They also have a distressing tendency to find themselves taking on vehicles, given that they are one of the few units that can affect rear armor 10 even without drugs or tokens. (Although the drugs and tokens can sure help!)

If you have the Baron, they're also the most mobile scoring unit, I believe.

Objective secured scoring unit you mean. They're decent for swooping in and pinging a unit, but they are still incredibly fragile like most deldar units.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
So what do helions do? Are they supposed to get into combat or just fly around shooting things?

I'd say it depends on what you're fighting. Given their great speed, mine usually wind up chasing down enemies that try to run and hide. They also have a distressing tendency to find themselves taking on vehicles, given that they are one of the few units that can affect rear armor 10 even without drugs or tokens. (Although the drugs and tokens can sure help!)

If you have the Baron, they're also the most mobile scoring unit, I believe.

Objective secured scoring unit you mean. They're decent for swooping in and pinging a unit, but they are still incredibly fragile like most deldar units.

Sorry, I did in fact mean super scoring. And I figured the fragility went without saying, being Dark Eldar and all.

They are supposes to do both mate.

2 poison shots each and s4/5 with drugs in combat, they can be quite good but there are on the expensive side.

The hit and run helps though, charge something and hit and run out in your opponents turn, rinse and repeat.

Based on the fragility of delder vehicles they are a viable option points wise but the 5+ armor save screws them over.

A bit group with baron and shrouding from something would work though.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Building deploys at the edge of your deployment zone. Escape hatch deploys 12 inches out from the building.

Haemmy comes out on the far side of the hatch, gets to move his 6" (so long as he winds up wholly within 6" of the hatch) and still drop the portal. Depending on what marker you use for your escape hatch, you're getting 18-20 inches outside of your deployment zone and still dropping the portal.

A Raider, on the other hand, can swivel for the extra pivot distance (say, 3"), move 6" and disembark the Haemmy, who can get another 6" and drop the portal. You're getting an extra 3-5 inches with the building (more if your group frowns on pivot-distance shenanigans).

The building, outfitted with a Void Shield (and Wracks to crew those bolters, of course!) is a little tougher than the Raider.

See, this gak right here is the stuff I expect to see! Creative use of the materials at hand. This is worth exploring more...

With dark eldar as the primary detachment, what do you think it better. Reaver jetbikes or windrider jetbikes? Do talos pain engines or chronos parasite engines have any place on the table?

Talos Pain engines are good from a Webway Portal, preceded by faster troops to shield them.

Everybody has yet to answer what else needs or is even notably improved by coming through a WWP, so until you can work that out you can just include the price of the WWP and the guy carrying it and the Bastion or whatever as part of the Talos Pain Engines price tag. Making them one of the worst units in the dex.

Its no fault of their own, we just have hardly anything else worth bringing through a portal to justify the strategy.

If I mention allies will you kill me?

D-Scythe Wraithguard with Spiritseers backed up by talos' might work.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Everybody has yet to answer what else needs or is even notably improved by coming through a WWP, so until you can work that out you can just include the price of the WWP and the guy carrying it and the Bastion or whatever as part of the Talos Pain Engines price tag. Making them one of the worst units in the dex.

Its no fault of their own, we just have hardly anything else worth bringing through a portal to justify the strategy.

this is what ive been thinking, I mainly started a E/DE force with Duke and DSing in mind, but with the change to transports and WWP I was really hoping that there would be some useful combos, but sadly i think you hit the nail on the head, the cost needed to simply make it seem viable is just not worth it, you need the fortifications, the IC with the WWP, then most likely sacrifice the dude with the WWP along with possibly first blood simply to put it down.

I had considered Duke with autarch for reserve manipulations, DSing turn 2 a IC with the WWP, but even then it'll be Turn 3 before models are coming out of the WWP, at which point it would probably have been easier to simply DS them in with raiders to ensure you have enough target saturation turn 2. haing half the army arrive late just makes it easy for the enemy to pick which units to destroy. Gah :( I love the idea of the WWP and pouring troops into the ranks of the enemy, but still doen't seem viable.

I do however, like the idea of sticking Maugan Ra with a unit of trueborn with splinter cannons in a venom. sitting at range simply hammering out poison shots, with Maugan Ra able to split fire his Str 6 or combine with them to really bring the hurt down on a unit. , as I think Maugan Ra in a unit of dark reapers doesn't fit very well considering the different target priorities.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Everybody has yet to answer what else needs or is even notably improved by coming through a WWP, so until you can work that out you can just include the price of the WWP and the guy carrying it and the Bastion or whatever as part of the Talos Pain Engines price tag. Making them one of the worst units in the dex.

Its no fault of their own, we just have hardly anything else worth bringing through a portal to justify the strategy.

Hordes of MSU unburdened by points sunk into DTs?


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 lambsandlions wrote:
With dark eldar as the primary detachment, what do you think it better. Reaver jetbikes or windrider jetbikes? Do talos pain engines or chronos parasite engines have any place on the table?

I say Reavers. They have a worse armor save, but still have a 3+ cover save, and can Turbo-boost across half the board. They can still attack after Jinking, and have easy access to FNP and Furious Charge.

Windriders are super-scoring and have a better armor save. In addition, they can more reliably do second-string duty against AV 10 vehicles.

The burden of our transports? Do you mean our amazing 65 pt Venoms that will actually make back their points, unlike a Bastion + 1 or 2 fishfood Haemonculi and WWP's. Which is my point, you are handicapping yourself a couple of hundred points for units that already have ample mobility. The fact that you suggest MSU is just the icing on the cake as it's practically the style of list our best transport is designed for. Also, anything that doesn't come in turn 2 is easily denied by blocking the WWP, and that's if they couldn't bubblewrap it on their first turn and deny your entire army.


I do think the allies suggestion is the way to make it worthwhile however. Anyone got any suggestions of what DScyghe Wraithguard might need to compliment them? Or just bring 30 WG through a portal turn 2

 SHUPPET wrote:
The burden of our transports? Do you mean our amazing 65 pt Venoms that will actually make back their points, unlike a Bastion + 1 or 2 fishfood Haemonculi and WWP's. Which is my point, you are handicapping yourself a couple of hundred points for units that already have ample mobility. The fact that you suggest MSU is just the icing on the cake as it's practically the style of list our best transport is designed for. Also, anything that doesn't come in turn 2 is easily denied by blocking the WWP, and that's if they couldn't bubblewrap it on their first turn and deny your entire army.


I do think the allies suggestion is the way to make it worthwhile however. Anyone got any suggestions of what DScyghe Wraithguard might need to compliment them? Or just bring 30 WG through a portal turn 2

Well my plan is the tantalus with 7 wraithguard, spiritseer and possiby some other IC, either DE or E. possibly Maugan Ra, for a nice 2+ save, his shooting and splitfire. (question, can i split fire and the target be a unit from a transport i just popped with the wraiths? i dont got the new BRB yet, but im sure its probably not possible? as technically im still firing all shots same time, just multiple targets due to splitfire.) Plus the wraith's if I went iyan supp, can look out sir any AP shots.
Or I might take an archon or haemi with the wraiths in the tantalus, prevent them getting tarpitted.

I know the tantalus is a little overcosted as it is, but still the idea of dropping it in alongside the duke and raiders/venoms is just too complelling

Just noticed the FAQ restrictions on upgrades for the dais appear to be missing. Does this mean we can now upgrade as per a raider as it says in the rulebook?

Shingen wrote:
Just noticed the FAQ restrictions on upgrades for the dais appear to be missing. Does this mean we can now upgrade as per a raider as it says in the rulebook?

Depends on your group. I think some groups are going to want to take a common-sense approach and still play it the old way, while others will play it strictly by the RAW.

RAW states it is treated EXACTLY like a Raider which can take upgrades.

One if my friends is a tournament organiser. He's looking into it for me. He hasn't dismissed if offhand so I'll go with whatever he says.

On paper though I'd say they can...


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It also gives you the page number for raiders and says it's a "special" raider with 3 guns.

Just thinking about it I have a hardon for 8 fire dragons, vect and another character.

Expensive unit but damn that would be effective...

Granted, but by RAW, if your Land Raider gets Hull Pointed to death, the guys inside can launch an assault during their opponent's assault phase.

(And last edition, Flying Monstrous Creatures were denied by Relentless and Smash...according to strict RAW. Also, the Sanguine Sword psychic power lasted all game.)

Point is, I don't know any group, anywhere, EVER, that plays everything strict RAW. I don't think it's unreasonable to take clarifications from the last round of FAQs and assume that they were left out due to copy-paste negligence. I think it seems reasonable in this case.

That being said, if it doesn't shake out that way? Best believe that beast is going in MY lists.

It will be hard to not take it. Imagine deep striking it with 9 Spiritseers on it all casting psychic scream )

The points cost is the major hurdle, it's a massive investment at 440 pts.

It IS pretty brutal.

TO says no sadly, no invul for the dais. Still jinking should be okay.

Hey all, been reading this thread both yesterday and today and had a few points i wanted to bring up, as well as get involved with discussing my main armies new tactics since the change (also new to the forum as a whole).

I kind of noticed how the discussion turned away from AT and just to general tactics, as my Meta involves a fair amount of vehicles i just wanted to weigh in on this as some of the suggestions/dismissals i didnt feel were quite right based on my area. I find haywire to be almost unbeatable - i run a reaper in almost every game and it will usually take out at least a vehicle, though i will loos it soon after that, same i find for 5 wytches - in 6th the first game i came across a knight i sacrificed 5 wytches to blow it, and it took out some of his troops too - thanks to that apocolyptic explosion!! See the thing i find with these sort of units is yes - as has been mentioned - they are very weak and can get taken out pretty easily, but thats why they need protecting - iirc the rules only state you need to say what is in a transport but not what everything is equipped with (correct me if im wrong) as long as your list is printed by your side then all is happy, dont tell them that the wytches have haywires and they wont worry about it zooming round the side towards the tanks and a few infantry units. Also i use the reaper as a distraction "check this bad mutha..... Its gonna kill all your tanks" oh and please ignore the grots, incubi, truborn etc over there. I think haywire is our best AT, and ive been happy to see some lists posted using a lot of it. Just be sure to hide them behind the wrecks they create - hell i even clambered some wytches over one wreck once to get to another cause i caused a route on the board to get blocked up with wrecked tanks from 5 wytches. Haywire FTW - just be careful with how it moves across the board - and never forget the power of psycology - big up some unit you have, boast about it, brag about its success to your opponent, essentially make them worry about it and shoot at that instead.

Someone mentioned Wracks with FC against vehicles - wracks dont benefit fro FC - they have poisoned attacks, am i right there or missing something?

Going to have to post later, on my phone at the moment and its a pain to keep track lol, but im liking the tactics here, and would like to add some of my own that i think could be of use

Thanks all

Someone mentioned Wracks with FC against vehicles - wracks dont benefit fro FC - they have poisoned attacks, am i right there or missing something?

Thats correct. They shoudnt be able to do any demage.

MasterOfGaunts wrote:

Someone mentioned Wracks with FC against vehicles - wracks dont benefit fro FC - they have poisoned attacks, am i right there or missing something?

Thats correct. They shoudnt be able to do any demage.

They still have a strength value. Just because someone puts toxin sacs on a Carnifex doesn't suddenly mean it's impotent against vehicles.

Indeed that is true.

Interesting, so FC they have S5 that i can use rather than the poisoned 4+? i like thins, makes 5 some pretty nifty tank killers...!!!

Quick question about the Eldar allies - Warlocks state pre PRIMARY detachment, but primary detachments have kinda disappeared in 7th habit they so how does that work?

Edited: changed a typo

Vraneth wrote:
Interesting, so FC they have S5 that i can use rather than the poisoned 4+? i like thins, makes 5 some pretty nifty tank killers...!!!

Quick question about the Eldar allies - Warlocks state pre PRIMARY detachment, but primary detachments have kinda disappeared in 7th habit they so how does that work?

Edited: changed a typo

Your primary detachment is your first Combined Arms detachment, and is the one with your Warlord in it. If that detachment is Eldar, then you may take a Warlock Council.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

MasterOfGaunts wrote:

Someone mentioned Wracks with FC against vehicles - wracks dont benefit fro FC - they have poisoned attacks, am i right there or missing something?

Thats correct. They shoudnt be able to do any demage.

They still have a strength value. Just because someone puts toxin sacs on a Carnifex doesn't suddenly mean it's impotent against vehicles.

Wracks are S3, with 1 attack base, and 2 weapons. That's 2 attacks, 3 on the charge.
If you get a 2nd pain token (they start with 1), then they gain furious charge, making them S4 on the charge.
It would take 9 charging wracks (27 S4 attacks) to hull point out a rear armor 10 3hp vehicle.
Grotesques (the big guys), are S5 (S6 on the furious charge) and hull out vehicles much more effectively for the points.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

MasterOfGaunts wrote:

Someone mentioned Wracks with FC against vehicles - wracks dont benefit fro FC - they have poisoned attacks, am i right there or missing something?

Thats correct. They shoudnt be able to do any demage.

They still have a strength value. Just because someone puts toxin sacs on a Carnifex doesn't suddenly mean it's impotent against vehicles.

Wracks are S3, with 1 attack base, and 2 weapons. That's 2 attacks, 3 on the charge.
If you get a 2nd pain token (they start with 1), then they gain furious charge, making them S4 on the charge.
It would take 9 charging wracks (27 S4 attacks) to hull point out a rear armor 10 3hp vehicle.
Grotesques (the big guys), are S5 (S6 on the furious charge) and hull out vehicles much more effectively for the points.

Surely though RAW Wracks shouldn't be able to - don't have my dex to hand but do have the rulebook. And iirc Wracks are equipped with "Two poisoned (4+) Close-Combat weapons" And I've just checked the rulebook which states that unless otherwise stated poisoned weapons are treated as having a Strength of 1 and that the poisoned special rule has no effect against vehicles. (P169 BRB) as far as i was aware there is no otherwise stated for wracks CC weapons is there?

I agree that wracks would do a better job of it - undoubtedly. But that doesn't mean that (if allowed) wracks couldn't give it a go at taking a tank down - may not be the most effective option, but if they are in the area it could be a good idea to give it a go - stats and Mathhammer are great and all - but dice don't always fall as they should lol.

R.E. the warlocks thats a bit annoying, would need to go unbound for my idea then, which is a bit of a pain lets face it. Wanted to add a few to boost the mastery levels in my army for better dice

Vraneth wrote:
Surely though RAW Wracks shouldn't be able to - don't have my dex to hand but do have the rulebook. And iirc Wracks are equipped with "Two poisoned (4+) Close-Combat weapons" And I've just checked the rulebook which states that unless otherwise stated poisoned weapons are treated as having a Strength of 1 and that the poisoned special rule has no effect against vehicles. (P169 BRB) as far as i was aware there is no otherwise stated for wracks CC weapons is there?

They can't use the Poison's 4+ against Vehicles, which doesn't mean they suddenly lose all their inherent Strength.

But you do need a CC weapon or a gun to use as one to attack right? Is not his only weapon poison? Which vehicles are immune to, regardless of the strength of the poison attack.


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I'm thinking I'm wrong here but it's never come up for me, I think I may be wrong about units needing a weapon to attack, in which case he can whack vehicles no prob


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Also I don't have dex on me, do they have a poison weapon or just a special rule stating they have poison attacks