Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Actually the cheapest is a single beastmaster.

Oh, there are cheaper options, but none that don't waste valuable FOC slots. Assuming you brought a haemmy, the wracks are occupying the much less coveted Troops slot. In addition, any wounds they suffer from Glancing Hits on the building will let them have their armor save, (gasp!) followed by their FNP. (Yes, other units have saves, but it's a plus for the Wracks!) For 60 points you can crew both gun silos in a Fortress of Redemption with BS 4 models, and for 80 more you can get another four of them anywhere on the building with heavy bolters to back them up. PLUS some big honking terrain, which our vehicles could DEFINITELY use in this edition.

Trueborn with haywires are expensive, yes... but they are versatile. And they score now.

I have been highly considering running a killy Huskon with a PGL for blind grenades, in a unit of incubi in a raider... to just run at the enemy... Have not done this before but I think it would be a lot of fun.

Will we be forced to leave our Ravagers at home and replace with Voidravens? I'm thinking haywire Wyches should be making a comeback, maybe led by Haemonculi for instant FNP, backed by Splinterborn in Venoms, and some Reavers because....well, because Reavers are just ridiculously cool.

I prefer to take Sliscus for a doubled chance at FNP, rather than take a haemmy in a non-coven unit and lose Fleet.

I'm not sure if Voidravens are going to be our salvation in this edition, but I may give one a shot just to see.

I just played a game with 3 razorwings and they kicked ass against troops as usual. I'm actually tempted to use them over ravagers.

Question of what other units to take though...

I'm not really concerned about anti-infantry firepower. Our army EXCELS at anti-infantry work. It's the vehicles that give me pause, and between the flyers, the Voidraven seems to have a very slight edge.

So... Just going to put this out there. 4 Shatterfield Missiles in one turn.

Literally couldn't matter less what you're hitting. it's all good news.

That'd be a big one big load you're shooting. Of course, once it's shot...

 Homeskillet wrote:
Will we be forced to leave our Ravagers at home and replace with Voidravens? I'm thinking haywire Wyches should be making a comeback, maybe led by Haemonculi for instant FNP, backed by Splinterborn in Venoms, and some Reavers because....well, because Reavers are just ridiculously cool.

Voidravens have worse odds then ravagers at exploding vehicles. 2 shots over 3. Still needing 6's.


Wyches are terrible still. Now that troops are SO valuable with objective secured it makes throwing them away even sillier IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
So... Just going to put this out there. 4 Shatterfield Missiles in one turn.

Literally couldn't matter less what you're hitting. it's all good news.

Vehicles....

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Will we be forced to leave our Ravagers at home and replace with Voidravens? I'm thinking haywire Wyches should be making a comeback, maybe led by Haemonculi for instant FNP, backed by Splinterborn in Venoms, and some Reavers because....well, because Reavers are just ridiculously cool.

Voidravens have worse odds then ravagers at exploding vehicles. 2 shots over 3. Still needing 6's.


Wyches are terrible still. Now that troops are SO valuable with objective secured it makes throwing them away even sillier IMO.

I don't think you give wyches (haywyches specifically) enough credit, Red. And although I haven't had enough game experience to state definitively, a PGL on a wych squad might make it all even better (and could definitely reduce some of the danger in them getting shot at).

Although I do agree with you that the Voidraven is probably NOT a better option than the Ravager. I think it's limited mobility and fewer shots will tell over the long haul.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
So... Just going to put this out there. 4 Shatterfield Missiles in one turn.

Literally couldn't matter less what you're hitting. it's all good news.

Vehicles....

Eh, depends. Against Land Raiders and Monoliths you're hosed, but against the vehicle squadrons that seem to be making a comeback? I don't know about you, but I've seen more squadrons in the last two months than I did in all the rest of 6th ed put together. And a St 7 blast (four of them, no less!) might be just the ticket there...

Still, not much use against heavy armor.

I don't think we're going to find the 'messiah solution' to the vehicle problem. I seriously think the best bet is to make do with many second-string options rather than relying on one or two A-list ones.

Well the reality is, voidravens kill everything well. Get behind the vehicle line and theyre in trouble. Str 9 lances mean some success to the front. I dunno. Its pretty bad ass. And fun.

Odd question; what do you all think of getting 3 Wracks just for a Venom, so I can disembark turn 1, embark 5 Fire Dragons in it?

Blasterborn have better range and Lance but, Fire Dragons have Melta a 3+ save Battle Focus and 1 more S8 shot than Blasterborn.

I did the math and, including 30 pts of Wracks, it's 205 for Dragons* and 185 for Blasterborn*. The 3+, Battle Focus, 3 extra bullet-sponges / bodies and, Melta seems huge for only 20 extra points.

*Assuming 65pt Venom (naked + ONLY 10pt 2nd Splinter Cannon)

 RancidHate wrote:
Odd question; what do you all think of getting 3 Wracks just for a Venom, so I can disembark turn 1, embark 5 Fire Dragons in it?

Blasterborn have better range and Lance but, Fire Dragons have Melta a 3+ save Battle Focus and 1 more S8 shot than Blasterborn.

I did the math and, including 30 pts of Wracks, it's 205 for Dragons* and 185 for Blasterborn*. The 3+, Battle Focus, 3 extra bullet-sponges / bodies and, Melta seems huge for only 20 extra points.

*Assuming 65pt Venom (naked + ONLY 10pt 2nd Splinter Cannon)

Vehicle is too squishy for that kind of firepower.

You'd might be better off fielding Vect and embark the Fire Dragons into his Dias of Destruction. Or, even the Tantalus....

 whembly wrote:

 RancidHate wrote:
Odd question; what do you all think of getting 3 Wracks just for a Venom, so I can disembark turn 1, embark 5 Fire Dragons in it?

Blasterborn have better range and Lance but, Fire Dragons have Melta a 3+ save Battle Focus and 1 more S8 shot than Blasterborn.

I did the math and, including 30 pts of Wracks, it's 205 for Dragons* and 185 for Blasterborn*. The 3+, Battle Focus, 3 extra bullet-sponges / bodies and, Melta seems huge for only 20 extra points.

*Assuming 65pt Venom (naked + ONLY 10pt 2nd Splinter Cannon)

Vehicle is too squishy for that kind of firepower.

You'd might be better off fielding Vect and embark the Fire Dragons into his Dias of Destruction. Or, even the Tantalus....

sadly that is the world DE live in, gotta put a lot of eggs in one fragile basket. Glass cannon.
Of course that has always been the problem with blasterborn. As a glass cannon they arent really that cheap. Meltavets, firedragons etc are all much better at doing the same damage for the cost. 27ppm is a lot for a guy with a blaster.

Firedragons are just better than blasterborn. The blasterborn get 2 attacks base, FNP+Fearless as an option with kills, and night vision.
Not a good trade compared to 3+ saves, battle focus, and meltabombs.

I think it would be worth trying out. Of course heat lances on scourges can melt any armor anywhere on the field, although mos players are disappointed with their cost(134 I think? For two heat lances and three ablative wounds that sometimes kill infantry). Heat lances on Reavers are another source of anti-heavy armor on a very mobile platform.

 Jimsolo wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
Will we be forced to leave our Ravagers at home and replace with Voidravens? I'm thinking haywire Wyches should be making a comeback, maybe led by Haemonculi for instant FNP, backed by Splinterborn in Venoms, and some Reavers because....well, because Reavers are just ridiculously cool.

Voidravens have worse odds then ravagers at exploding vehicles. 2 shots over 3. Still needing 6's.


Wyches are terrible still. Now that troops are SO valuable with objective secured it makes throwing them away even sillier IMO.

I don't think you give wyches (haywyches specifically) enough credit, Red. And although I haven't had enough game experience to state definitively, a PGL on a wych squad might make it all even better (and could definitely reduce some of the danger in them getting shot at).

Although I do agree with you that the Voidraven is probably NOT a better option than the Ravager. I think it's limited mobility and fewer shots will tell over the long haul.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:
So... Just going to put this out there. 4 Shatterfield Missiles in one turn.

Literally couldn't matter less what you're hitting. it's all good news.

Vehicles....

Eh, depends. Against Land Raiders and Monoliths you're hosed, but against the vehicle squadrons that seem to be making a comeback? I don't know about you, but I've seen more squadrons in the last two months than I did in all the rest of 6th ed put together. And a St 7 blast (four of them, no less!) might be just the ticket there...

Still, not much use against heavy armor.

I don't think we're going to find the 'messiah solution' to the vehicle problem. I seriously think the best bet is to make do with many second-string options rather than relying on one or two A-list ones.

Well I can only vouch for my own experience. Haywire wyches are too expensive and look great on paper but don't get the task done as easily as your assuming. Most walkers have either high volume fire or more commonly then that a template weapon. Getting 5 t3 6+ save wyches into assault is not going to happen. If your lucky you make the assault with 1-2 and you still fail to do more then 1 HP. Not to mention turn one your wasting your venoms shots because you need to flat out. Bringing them in a raider just makes them a bigger, juicier target and again they suffer the same issues only now total cost with a transport is ~180, way too expensive to trade on anything but a LR. Against tanks they seem ok until you run the math. 5 attacks needing 3's then 2's means your riding the edge on whether you pop a 3HP tank or not, and you really need to land that thrown grenade hit. Again, in my own experience running dual haywire wyches in venoms, usually one squad never sees turn 2 and the other is greatful to get whatever charge is available. That inability to really pick a target against a smart opponent makes them worthless IMO.

In regard to a razorwing. I like the durability of being a flier, I hate relying on a pair (~300 pts) to come on turn 2. They also shouldn't be effective against vehicles squads. I mean lets give your opponent some benefit from doubt. They have a 4" coherency available, IF you land all 4 thats 4 s7 hits. You'll bounce on any tank and maybe nab a killa can or war walker if their saves are trash due to 2 HP's. Razorwings shred infantry, and I love the model, but they should never waste that one time payload on vehicles to grab 1-2 HP's.

The void raven has a nice punch but the new damage table makes it good for finishing off that wounded vehicle. Not to mention it has a worthless one time bomb. I remember thinking the VR was good until I took a second glance and saw the void mine was regular blast. That thing needs to be at least a 5" IMO and ignore cover.

 RancidHate wrote:
Odd question; what do you all think of getting 3 Wracks just for a Venom, so I can disembark turn 1, embark 5 Fire Dragons in it?

Blasterborn have better range and Lance but, Fire Dragons have Melta a 3+ save Battle Focus and 1 more S8 shot than Blasterborn.

I did the math and, including 30 pts of Wracks, it's 205 for Dragons* and 185 for Blasterborn*. The 3+, Battle Focus, 3 extra bullet-sponges / bodies and, Melta seems huge for only 20 extra points.

*Assuming 65pt Venom (naked + ONLY 10pt 2nd Splinter Cannon)

Wracks are my troop of choice.

 RancidHate wrote:
Odd question; what do you all think of getting 3 Wracks just for a Venom, so I can disembark turn 1, embark 5 Fire Dragons in it?

Blasterborn have better range and Lance but, Fire Dragons have Melta a 3+ save Battle Focus and 1 more S8 shot than Blasterborn.

I did the math and, including 30 pts of Wracks, it's 205 for Dragons* and 185 for Blasterborn*. The 3+, Battle Focus, 3 extra bullet-sponges / bodies and, Melta seems huge for only 20 extra points.

*Assuming 65pt Venom (naked + ONLY 10pt 2nd Splinter Cannon)

Why not just field them in a WS? Unlike the venom its going to survive, has much more utility and is combat effective much sooner.

In your example turn 1 you will embark meaning no flat out. This means turn 2 your moving at least 12" so your snap firing the passengers unless you disembark, in which case why bother with the delicate opened topped transport? if they counter maneuver you might not get a solid target until turn 3. Way too late in a DE army for my taste. Hit them hard and fast T1-2. They survive that without being crippled and you usually have a massive struggle ahead.

Red Corsair wrote:They also shouldn't be effective against vehicles squads. I mean lets give your opponent some benefit from doubt. They have a 4" coherency available, IF you land all 4 thats 4 s7 hits. You'll bounce on any tank and maybe nab a killa can or war walker if their saves are trash due to 2 HP's. Razorwings shred infantry, and I love the model, but they should never waste that one time payload on vehicles to grab 1-2 HP's.

The void raven has a nice punch but the new damage table makes it good for finishing off that wounded vehicle. Not to mention it has a worthless one time bomb. I remember thinking the VR was good until I took a second glance and saw the void mine was regular blast. That thing needs to be at least a 5" IMO and ignore cover.

Give US some benefit of the doubt too. It shouldn't be that hard to ensure that your opponent will have to be closer than 4" apart in order to obtain optimum shots or avoid incoming fire.

Although I agree that the bomb is virtually useless.

Red Corsair wrote:
Why not just field them in a WS? Unlike the venom its going to survive, has much more utility and is combat effective much sooner.

In your example turn 1 you will embark meaning no flat out. This means turn 2 your moving at least 12" so your snap firing the passengers unless you disembark, in which case why bother with the delicate opened topped transport? if they counter maneuver you might not get a solid target until turn 3. Way too late in a DE army for my taste. Hit them hard and fast T1-2. They survive that without being crippled and you usually have a massive struggle ahead.

I concur. While I'm not opposed to skipping turn 1 because you're Deep Striking (and Blasterborn just got MUCH better now that they can do that and fire to full effect), skipping any effective shooting on turn 1 AND still being around to get shot at? Not worth it in my book. It's a good idea, and Fire Dragons in a Dais or a Tantalus might still find their way into my army somewhere, but I think it's just not quite going to work.

(Alternately, Fire Dragons are a good unit to have pouring out of a WWP, though.)

 Red Corsair wrote:


Why not just field them in a WS? Unlike the venom its going to survive, has much more utility and is combat effective much sooner.

In your example turn 1 you will embark meaning no flat out. This means turn 2 your moving at least 12" so your snap firing the passengers unless you disembark, in which case why bother with the delicate opened topped transport? if they counter maneuver you might not get a solid target until turn 3. Way too late in a DE army for my taste. Hit them hard and fast T1-2. They survive that without being crippled and you usually have a massive struggle ahead.

The question is, why play DE at all when CWE are just better. Once you open that allied door you end up converting more and more

 Exergy wrote:
CWE are just better.

That's a mighty subjective notion there, amigo. And I'm sure there are more than a few people here willing to disagree.

Both armies are good. Competitive even.

Craftworld Eldar are just easier to learn how to play. (At least they were in 6th. Time will tell if 7th ed changes have affected that at all.)

There are one or two things that CWE do better, though. Namely, psykers. Until our new book drops I think I'll be including a couple just as a defensive move.

But I definitely don't think we should exclude the notion of allies simply because it would be easier to just go CWE and spam Wave Serpents.

I have to agree with Exergy. Not tooting my own horn or saying I know more then anyone else, but I have been playing DE since 98 and they have had some great moments. Now however isn't one of them. CWE have a unit for everything we do for cheaper, its stupid but its the sad truth. In fact CWE and necrons are probably our two worst match-ups even over guard.

What annoys me most is seeing the more quirky fun units get worse and worse and the most effective lists are almost always venom/dark light spam. It's a very boring build.

I personally never have issues when playing Eldar, to say they are better is ridiculous.

With regards to troops. I take 2 of each as it gives me options, wracks, wyches and warriors.

And yes, never shoot a razorwing at vehicles unless it's a squadron of war walkers, vypers or sentinels.

Never had issues? Prey tell, how did you handle the dreaded Wave Serpent? They stand at the nadir of effectiveness for our Lances at Av 12, they can jink for a 3+(!) cover save and have enough fire power to wreck *anything* in the DE army save for a Talos in a single round of shooting. How can we compete with that? Cover saves? They ignore them with shields. Night shields? Serpent Shields are range 60 (!).

I have lost entire games when someone has decided to bring a single Wave Serpent to a thousand point tourney as i had nothing to counter it while it tore through my army, so Dark Eldar buddies, other then Wyches who will never get there how do you handle Wave Serprents. Preferably no allies.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Never had issues? Prey tell, how did you handle the dreaded Wave Serpent? They stand at the nadir of effectiveness for our Lances at Av 12, they can jink for a 3+(!) cover save and have enough fire power to wreck *anything* in the DE army save for a Talos in a single round of shooting. How can we compete with that? Cover saves? They ignore them with shields. Night shields? Serpent Shields are range 60 (!).

I have lost entire games when someone has decided to bring a single Wave Serpent to a thousand point tourney as i had nothing to counter it while it tore through my army, so Dark Eldar buddies, other then Wyches who will never get there how do you handle Wave Serprents. Preferably no allies.

Haywyches, Blasterborn, Raiders, Ravagers, Taloses, Grotesques, Hellions, Reavers, Mandrakes, Beast Packs. All of them are capable of damaging the dreaded Wave Serpent, many without giving up cover saves.

Do Wave Serpents give me trouble? Yes. But they are far from the unstoppable "I-win-button" they are sometimes portrayed as.

Exactly, try deep striking your vehicles on their rear armor.

Hey guys,

Ive been building a DE/Eldar force as my second force for a little while (im a big converter so takes me ages to get an army to the tabletop).

However, ever since reading this thread and a few others ive gotten really excited, however could you guys help clear a few things up for me and possibly give me some experienced advice? I've read this thread and I know a few were keen to keep it clear of the eldar allies aspect, so if you'd prefer me to start a separate thread then please do inform me not trying to steer you all off topic

As my force is a harle exodite fluffy army (love fluffy armies!) I am modelling them as a combination of DE and Eldar bits for a nice mixed 'darker' army feel. So in that respect I have no issue fielding units from either dex. My theme is primarily a 'Dsing' or orbital raiding styled army with the intention of bringing plenty of fast units, so Warp spiders, hawks along side all my DSing gunboats.

My questions:
I understand that as mentioned earlier I can technically put units from eldar into reserves and then into a venom or a raider. As reserves is deployment (is that the reason?). However, I assume then that I still need to bring a unit in order to bring the dedicated transport? the new unbound doesn't allow me to simply field dedicated transports freely right?

Secondly, if i remember correctly, sliscus's 3+ poison, can I apply that to a gunboat in reserves and then have him DS in with a separate unit while leaving the 3+ on the gunboat? Or do I still have to have him arrive with the unit the 3+ is linked to? I thought I read an FAQ or something where they specified something to do with the dukes deployment, but I cant remember which way it took it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hey guys,

Ive been building a DE/Eldar force as my second force for a little while (im a big converter so takes me ages to get an army to the tabletop).

However, ever since reading this thread and a few others ive gotten really excited, however could you guys help clear a few things up for me and possibly give me some experienced advice? I've read this thread and I know a few were keen to keep it clear of the eldar allies aspect, so if you'd prefer me to start a separate thread then please do inform me not trying to steer you all off topic

As my force is a harle exodite fluffy army (love fluffy armies!) I am modelling them as a combination of DE and Eldar bits for a nice mixed 'darker' army feel. So in that respect I have no issue fielding units from either dex. My theme is primarily a 'Dsing' or orbital raiding styled army with the intention of bringing plenty of fast units, so Warp spiders, hawks along side all my DSing gunboats.

My questions:
I understand that as mentioned earlier I can technically put units from eldar into reserves and then into a venom or a raider. As reserves is deployment (is that the reason?). However, I assume then that I still need to bring a unit in order to bring the dedicated transport? the new unbound doesn't allow me to simply field dedicated transports freely right?

Secondly, if i remember correctly, sliscus's 3+ poison, can I apply that to a gunboat in reserves and then have him DS in with a separate unit while leaving the 3+ on the gunboat? Or do I still have to have him arrive with the unit the 3+ is linked to? I thought I read an FAQ or something where they specified something to do with the dukes deployment, but I cant remember which way it took it.

Sliscus has to be deployed with them however he is free to leave the unit turn 1 if you desire and the 3+ stays with the unit.

You have to take a unit to get a dedicated transport and you can't deploy another unit in it.

Shingen wrote:
Sliscus has to be deployed with them however he is free to leave the unit turn 1 if you desire and the 3+ stays with the unit.

You have to take a unit to get a dedicated transport and you can't deploy another unit in it.

Ok thanks for the info on sliscus As I intend on DSing him, I suppose he can stick with the raider and move to join another group after the deepstrike.

Regards to your second part:

On the first page is this:
The Deployment rules for Dedicated Transports state that a Dedicated Transport can only be deployed with the unit that bought it. It doesnt however say that you can keep the vehicle in reserve and stick another unit in it. This one might need an FAQ or just a general conversation however the theory is sound. Stick Wraithguard with D-Scythes in a Raider (or a Tantalus if you have Forgeworld models, as these are not dedicated transports you can do what you like!), add Retrofire Jets, drop them in Turn 2 and make your opponent cry (just hope you don't scatter considering how close you need to be to fire them!). You can disembark the turn they arrive and if you take Iyanden you can Battle Focus them (make sure you have a Spiritseer!).

Any thoughts on this? As I would suppose you'd be deploying both units into reserves, but technically you could have them come onto the table separately at the edge (they don't have to be inside it) hmm, not sure. I would hope I am able to do this as I can then put some eldar units inside

The other choice if I cant I suppose would be:
WWP - drop that when the duke DS's and then bring through my wraith units.
Gate of infinity - I can use spiritseers (They can access santic right now? not sure where to look that up.) to DS my wraith units into the fray once the duke arrives.