Wyzilla wrote:
Don't know if I've already posted this in the thread, but I'd add the failure Blood Ravens to this list. They're only slightly better than the Soul Drinkers, but are still pretty terrible.

I like the fluff that they can remember who they were before indoctrination.

Caused some problems with the Grey Knight lore though. They are the only SM chapter that can't be mind wiped. As such the Grey Knights and inquisition are great friends of theirs. Seriously Gabriel Angelo's told the Inqusition to exterminatus his own planet.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Don't know if I've already posted this in the thread, but I'd add the failure Blood Ravens to this list. They're only slightly better than the Soul Drinkers, but are still pretty terrible.

I like the fluff that they can remember who they were before indoctrination.

Caused some problems with the Grey Knight lore though. They are the only SM chapter that can't be mind wiped. As such the Grey Knights and inquisition are great friends of theirs. Seriously Gabriel Angelo's told the Inqusition to exterminatus his own planet.

Remembering who you were before indoctrination isn't unique to the Blood Ravens. Not at all.

 Wyzilla wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Don't know if I've already posted this in the thread, but I'd add the failure Blood Ravens to this list. They're only slightly better than the Soul Drinkers, but are still pretty terrible.

I like the fluff that they can remember who they were before indoctrination.

Caused some problems with the Grey Knight lore though. They are the only SM chapter that can't be mind wiped. As such the Grey Knights and inquisition are great friends of theirs. Seriously Gabriel Angelo's told the Inqusition to exterminatus his own planet.

Remembering who you were before indoctrination isn't unique to the Blood Ravens. Not at all.

Salamanders still maintain contact with their families after they become Astartes

What's the source for that? I'm not questioning you.. I just really want to know so I can check it out.

in fact grey knights are exceptional because they are mind wiped

 Sigvatr wrote:
Pretty much the entire fake Newcron fluff.

This...
And anything that involves Bro fisting.

BrianDavion wrote:
in fact grey knights are exceptional because they are mind wiped

Ah, but not *soul* wiped...


...


...Idk where I'm going with that...

Three more:

Angron - Was content believing he was a berserker that was never meant for anything other than war. Finding out he was butthurt about dad saving him at the last second was the primary reason for his fall? Pretty lamo.

Erebus - A character that could have been beautifully written...aaaaaand it's gone.

The Emperor's Children - What the feth. Seriously. What the feth.

Edit: Fourthly, perpetuals. The writer who coined this term needs to stop writing. Forever.

Angron - Was content believing he was a berserker that was never meant for anything other than war. Finding out he was butthurt about dad saving him at the last second was the primary reason for his fall? Pretty lamo.

Considering you don't seem to actually understand why..

I gotta go with Draigo. Just... Draigo. He's so unbelievably Mary Sue. He doesn't just drop kick greater daemons left and right and beat a Daemon Primarch, oh no. That wouldn't be XTREME!!! enough. He has to tag some graffiti on the Daemon Primarch's heart, before presumably tea-bagging him and giving a big thumbs up to the camera while a guitar solo plays. It wouldn't be so bad if it was done in tongue in cheek like the old fluff, but it's all in dead seriousness. The only possibly good idea in Draigo's wretched backstory (doomed SM trapped in the warp who returns out of nowhere to save the day only to be dragged back) is a lame ripoff of the million times better fluff for the Legion of the Damned.

The thing is, we've seen most of the other shoddy stuff before. Out of favor armies being a whipping boy (or girl) that get downright insulted in fluff? SoBs, Eldar, and IG have all had their turn, not to mention CSM's getting downgraded to hordes of easily killed mooks. Dumb alliances? Back in RT, there were half Eldar, half Human HYBRIDS. And while I'm not a huge fan of the newcron fluff, I can see why some people like it. But Draigo is whole new level of fail. He's nothing but "Look! My guy is betterer and coolerer than your guy, and constantly kicks your guys' butts!" It's not just bad, juvenile, and unfair to fans of other factions, it commits the ultimate sin of any story. It's boring. That's why Mary Sues are so despised in fiction. The invincible hero, who's only invincible because the writer loves and favors them, is BORING. Oh, and throw in all of Ward's UM fluff too, for the exact same reason.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Don't know if I've already posted this in the thread, but I'd add the failure Blood Ravens to this list. They're only slightly better than the Soul Drinkers, but are still pretty terrible.

At least they gave us Indrick Boreale and Captain Diomedes. Bless their hammy voice acting.

I don't mind perpetuals. I think they could have fit in the setting. The ability to come back to life in 41st Millennium is the worst curse one could have. Not even death offers you respite from the inhuman horrors and suffering. However, my issue is how they've run off with the idea and starting retconning established characters into being perpetuals.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Three more:

Angron - Was content believing he was a berserker that was never meant for anything other than war. Finding out he was butthurt about dad saving him at the last second was the primary reason for his fall? Pretty lamo.

Erebus - A character that could have been beautifully written...aaaaaand it's gone.

The Emperor's Children - What the feth. Seriously. What the feth.

Edit: Fourthly, perpetuals. The writer who coined this term needs to stop writing. Forever.

Perpetuals are what happens when Black Library passes out crack to all its writers and decides to can all its editors at the same time.

Remember when Ollanius Pius was actually interesting?

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Three more:

Angron - Was content believing he was a berserker that was never meant for anything other than war. Finding out he was butthurt about dad saving him at the last second was the primary reason for his fall? Pretty lamo.

Erebus - A character that could have been beautifully written...aaaaaand it's gone.

The Emperor's Children - What the feth. Seriously. What the feth.

Edit: Fourthly, perpetuals. The writer who coined this term needs to stop writing. Forever.

Perpetuals are what happens when Black Library passes out crack to all its writers and decides to can all its editors at the same time.

Remember when Ollanius Pius was actually interesting?

To be fair, Pius could still be cool if they just executed it properly. I always thought a better idea for Pius is that Pius was a true son of the Emperor, fathered some time before western Rome fell and was one of the few biological children. Pius then later stands before Horus as an act of defiance for his father, then gets instantly killed for his bravery by Horus. In that moment the Emperor finally realizes that all along- the Primarchs, the Space Marines, Horus, were nothing but laboratory monsters that were by no means his true sons and sees them for the flawed creations they are. With Horus felling what may very well be his last true biological child, the Emperor lets go of everything and unleashes everything at him in a final climatic battle.

But of course, we can never get any good humanizing fluff for the Emperor that also explains where perpetuals come from.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Three more:

Angron - Was content believing he was a berserker that was never meant for anything other than war. Finding out he was butthurt about dad saving him at the last second was the primary reason for his fall? Pretty lamo.

Erebus - A character that could have been beautifully written...aaaaaand it's gone.

The Emperor's Children - What the feth. Seriously. What the feth.

Edit: Fourthly, perpetuals. The writer who coined this term needs to stop writing. Forever.

Perpetuals are what happens when Black Library passes out crack to all its writers and decides to can all its editors at the same time.

Remember when Ollanius Pius was actually interesting?

To be fair, Pius could still be cool if they just executed it properly. I always thought a better idea for Pius is that Pius was a true son of the Emperor, fathered some time before western Rome fell and was one of the few biological children. Pius then later stands before Horus as an act of defiance for his father, then gets instantly killed for his bravery by Horus. In that moment the Emperor finally realizes that all along- the Primarchs, the Space Marines, Horus, were nothing but laboratory monsters that were by no means his true sons and sees them for the flawed creations they are. With Horus felling what may very well be his last true biological child, the Emperor lets go of everything and unleashes everything at him in a final climatic battle.

But of course, we can never get any good humanizing fluff for the Emperor that also explains where perpetuals come from.

The more sphesshul you make Pius, the less his sacrifice matters.

The point was, he was an ordinary person who saw who Horus was and tried to stop him. No personal attachments. No commitments. He had no obligation to take a stand. Yet he did anyways.

Making him a perpetual or the Emperor's son or an alligator doesn't make him cooler; it makes him boring. Imagine if they gave Batman actual superpowers to try and spice him up. It would just be dumb.

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Three more:

Angron - Was content believing he was a berserker that was never meant for anything other than war. Finding out he was butthurt about dad saving him at the last second was the primary reason for his fall? Pretty lamo.

Erebus - A character that could have been beautifully written...aaaaaand it's gone.

The Emperor's Children - What the feth. Seriously. What the feth.

Edit: Fourthly, perpetuals. The writer who coined this term needs to stop writing. Forever.

Perpetuals are what happens when Black Library passes out crack to all its writers and decides to can all its editors at the same time.

Remember when Ollanius Pius was actually interesting?

To be fair, Pius could still be cool if they just executed it properly. I always thought a better idea for Pius is that Pius was a true son of the Emperor, fathered some time before western Rome fell and was one of the few biological children. Pius then later stands before Horus as an act of defiance for his father, then gets instantly killed for his bravery by Horus. In that moment the Emperor finally realizes that all along- the Primarchs, the Space Marines, Horus, were nothing but laboratory monsters that were by no means his true sons and sees them for the flawed creations they are. With Horus felling what may very well be his last true biological child, the Emperor lets go of everything and unleashes everything at him in a final climatic battle.

But of course, we can never get any good humanizing fluff for the Emperor that also explains where perpetuals come from.

The more sphesshul you make Pius, the less his sacrifice matters.

The point was, he was an ordinary person who saw who Horus was and tried to stop him. No personal attachments. No commitments. He had no obligation to take a stand. Yet he did anyways.

Making him a perpetual or the Emperor's son or an alligator doesn't make him cooler; it makes him boring. Imagine if they gave Batman actual superpowers to try and spice him up. It would just be dumb.

Except that Batman does have blatant super powers thanks to the ridiculous levels DC has taken him to.

 LoneLictor wrote:
The more sphesshul you make Pius, the less his sacrifice matters.

The point was, he was an ordinary person who saw who Horus was and tried to stop him. No personal attachments. No commitments. He had no obligation to take a stand. Yet he did anyways.

Making him a perpetual or the Emperor's son or an alligator doesn't make him cooler; it makes him boring. Imagine if they gave Batman actual superpowers to try and spice him up. It would just be dumb.

It goes both ways. The less sphesshul you make Pius, the less reason he has to be on Horus’ flagship of doom and destruction. Teleporting rank and file guardsmen tasked with storming chaos infested ships have never been a thing and never will be.

With Pius you have two options. Either leave him out of the story entirely, or give him a reason to be there. BL chose the latter option. That’s just how things are. Accept it and move on with your life.

Actually, I consider it to be one of the most enlightened and awesome things about 40k that the Emperor considers his lab-babies to be just as legitimate as his loin-babies.

"Born naturally or born in a test tube? I don't care, you're my child!"

Isn't that one of the most uplifting things you could write?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Actually, I consider it to be one of the most enlightened and awesome things about 40k that the Emperor considers his lab-babies to be just as legitimate as his loin-babies.

"Born naturally or born in a test tube? I don't care, you're my child!"

Isn't that one of the most uplifting things you could write?

Considering how he treated the Thunder Warriors, it's doubtful that he actually gave a damn about the Astartes or their Primarchs. Possibly loved Horus and Sanguinius, but it really doesn't seem like it.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Actually, I consider it to be one of the most enlightened and awesome things about 40k that the Emperor considers his lab-babies to be just as legitimate as his loin-babies.

"Born naturally or born in a test tube? I don't care, you're my child!"

Isn't that one of the most uplifting things you could write?

Considering how he treated the Thunder Warriors, it's doubtful that he actually gave a damn about the Astartes or their Primarchs. Possibly loved Horus and Sanguinius, but it really doesn't seem like it.

The Emperor viewed the Primarchs as expendable as rumor has it that after the Primarchs were to have conquered the galaxy for the Emperor, there was no place planned for them to exist in the post Crusade era. The ruling body was rumored to be completely made up of regular humans.

I believe the "love" for Horus was created as an excuse for why the Emperor didn't just psychically crush Horus to death in his armor the moment he saw him in the final battle.

Hang on, weren't their supposedly twenty primarch sized living quarters built in the emperor's palace.
I always assumed the emperor was autistic, tha he simply didn't feel emotions on the same level as normal people.

Newcrons

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Hang on, weren't their supposedly twenty primarch sized living quarters built in the emperor's palace.
I always assumed the emperor was autistic, tha he simply didn't feel emotions on the same level as normal people.

Considering how he treated some of his sons by completely ignoring how they felt, didn't really connect with many of them and essentially caused like at least 1/4th because of his attitude's alone to rebel because of his treatments. Yeah I'd agree to that, he was a poor parent who simply planned strong powerful children to lead essentially lead murderous rampages across the galaxy to unite humanity.

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Three more:

Angron - Was content believing he was a berserker that was never meant for anything other than war. Finding out he was butthurt about dad saving him at the last second was the primary reason for his fall? Pretty lamo.

Erebus - A character that could have been beautifully written...aaaaaand it's gone.

The Emperor's Children - What the feth. Seriously. What the feth.

Edit: Fourthly, perpetuals. The writer who coined this term needs to stop writing. Forever.

Perpetuals are what happens when Black Library passes out crack to all its writers and decides to can all its editors at the same time.

Remember when Ollanius Pius was actually interesting?

To be fair, Pius could still be cool if they just executed it properly. I always thought a better idea for Pius is that Pius was a true son of the Emperor, fathered some time before western Rome fell and was one of the few biological children. Pius then later stands before Horus as an act of defiance for his father, then gets instantly killed for his bravery by Horus. In that moment the Emperor finally realizes that all along- the Primarchs, the Space Marines, Horus, were nothing but laboratory monsters that were by no means his true sons and sees them for the flawed creations they are. With Horus felling what may very well be his last true biological child, the Emperor lets go of everything and unleashes everything at him in a final climatic battle.

But of course, we can never get any good humanizing fluff for the Emperor that also explains where perpetuals come from.

The more sphesshul you make Pius, the less his sacrifice matters.

The point was, he was an ordinary person who saw who Horus was and tried to stop him. No personal attachments. No commitments. He had no obligation to take a stand. Yet he did anyways.

Making him a perpetual or the Emperor's son or an alligator doesn't make him cooler; it makes him boring. Imagine if they gave Batman actual superpowers to try and spice him up. It would just be dumb.

To be fair, if Pius were an alligator he probably would have won that fight. Those things are terrifying.

Ok so last night i was reading up on the steel legions of armageddon. I prefer them to DKOK but alas theres only like 12 different models so I wont be collecting them.

One thing I did notice however was commissar yarrick. He fought in the second and third wars. The third war was 50 years after the second one ended. Wouldnt that make him like 70 ish when the third war (that he participated in) started?

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:
Ok so last night i was reading up on the steel legions of armageddon. I prefer them to DKOK but alas theres only like 12 different models so I wont be collecting them.

One thing I did notice however was commissar yarrick. He fought in the second and third wars. The third war was 50 years after the second one ended. Wouldnt that make him like 70 ish when the third war (that he participated in) started?

the Imperium does have rejuvenation treatments available, you just have to be super special/rich to afford them.
Yarrick is also bolstered by the Orks belief that nothing can kill him

 Wyzilla wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Don't know if I've already posted this in the thread, but I'd add the failure Blood Ravens to this list. They're only slightly better than the Soul Drinkers, but are still pretty terrible.

I like the fluff that they can remember who they were before indoctrination.

Caused some problems with the Grey Knight lore though. They are the only SM chapter that can't be mind wiped. As such the Grey Knights and inquisition are great friends of theirs. Seriously Gabriel Angelo's told the Inqusition to exterminatus his own planet.

Remembering who you were before indoctrination isn't unique to the Blood Ravens. Not at all.

It's because they have eidetic memory or something. While it's not unheard of for Space Marines to know their history(honestly did not know), Blood Ravens have total recall of everything that has happened to them. Supposedly, I read this on Lexicanum or 40k wiki or something.

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:
Ok so last night i was reading up on the steel legions of armageddon. I prefer them to DKOK but alas theres only like 12 different models so I wont be collecting them.

One thing I did notice however was commissar yarrick. He fought in the second and third wars. The third war was 50 years after the second one ended. Wouldnt that make him like 70 ish when the third war (that he participated in) started?

It's not uncommon for high-ranking Imperials such as 'Hero' grade Commissars, Inquisitors and Canonesses to reach three hundred years of age in the 40k universe, although of those that do, most retire if they can at about two hundred.

Assuming they aren't slain in battle, of course. They tried to make even that a thing of the past with the Afriel Strain experiments, but none of the clones - while disciplined and highly trained - had quite that spark of genius and charisma that made Macharius what he was.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

DontEatRawHagis wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Don't know if I've already posted this in the thread, but I'd add the failure Blood Ravens to this list. They're only slightly better than the Soul Drinkers, but are still pretty terrible.

I like the fluff that they can remember who they were before indoctrination.

Caused some problems with the Grey Knight lore though. They are the only SM chapter that can't be mind wiped. As such the Grey Knights and inquisition are great friends of theirs. Seriously Gabriel Angelo's told the Inqusition to exterminatus his own planet.

Remembering who you were before indoctrination isn't unique to the Blood Ravens. Not at all.

It's because they have eidetic memory or something. While it's not unheard of for Space Marines to know their history(honestly did not know), Blood Ravens have total recall of everything that has happened to them. Supposedly, I read this on Lexicanum or 40k wiki or something.

Except that nearly all space marines have eidetic memories.

Seriously dude, stop paying attention to what C.S. Goto writes. The dude never seemingly bothered to read any other books produced by the Black Library.

Not-Jain-Zar's appearance in the Nightlords trilogy. Especially when she takes her helmet off.

There's nothing under Real Jain Zar's helmet, Phoenix Lords don't have bodies.

How about some of the newest fluff? **spoiler alert**

In the new "Red Waagh" book, the "Forgotten Mountain" that Gerantius protects turns out to be a GIANT TRANSFORMER FORTRESS. Into which the Orks promptly ram a friggin' comet. (Almost literally a PLANETSTRIKE, for which there are new rules. Nice tie-in, GW)

Also, the Freeblade Obsidian Knight just kicking all kinds of Tau ass is pretty funny, especially when they imply that the giant stompy black robot just comes out of nowhere.

Orks have been lobbing Rokks at reinforced objectives since third edition. :p

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Orks have been lobbing Rokks at reinforced objectives since third edition. :p

Yea, but now they're getting really good at it.

Orks have been lobbing Rokks at reinforced objectives since third edition. :p

Oh, it wasn't your standard Rokk. The Orks harnessed a passing comet and after some setbacks then rammed one of their cruisers into it to bring it down into the Transformofortress.
The timing is what amused me; basically, the Imperial forces are like "HaHA! We have an -unexpected even to us- GIANT TRANSFORMING FORTRESS MOUNTAIN!" and 10 minutes later the Orks drop a comet onto it.

There's also a side story in the book about some freeblade knight who has daddy issues.

Mortarion getting a tattoo on his heart. A daemon primarch should not be so easily defeated. I like the GK but that was just bull.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
The more sphesshul you make Pius, the less his sacrifice matters.

The point was, he was an ordinary person who saw who Horus was and tried to stop him. No personal attachments. No commitments. He had no obligation to take a stand. Yet he did anyways.

Making him a perpetual or the Emperor's son or an alligator doesn't make him cooler; it makes him boring. Imagine if they gave Batman actual superpowers to try and spice him up. It would just be dumb.

It goes both ways. The less sphesshul you make Pius, the less reason he has to be on Horus’ flagship of doom and destruction. Teleporting rank and file guardsmen tasked with storming chaos infested ships have never been a thing and never will be.

With Pius you have two options. Either leave him out of the story entirely, or give him a reason to be there. BL chose the latter option. That’s just how things are. Accept it and move on with your life.

They could've said that he was part of the Emperor's massive boarding party. Or that he was a slave aboard the ship.

That would've been a lot better than saying, "HES A TIMELORD CUZ I WATCHED DR WHO BEFOROE I SAT DOWN TO TRY AND WROTED THE HORFUS HORSY".

 Redcruisair wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
The more sphesshul you make Pius, the less his sacrifice matters.

The point was, he was an ordinary person who saw who Horus was and tried to stop him. No personal attachments. No commitments. He had no obligation to take a stand. Yet he did anyways.

Making him a perpetual or the Emperor's son or an alligator doesn't make him cooler; it makes him boring. Imagine if they gave Batman actual superpowers to try and spice him up. It would just be dumb.

It goes both ways. The less sphesshul you make Pius, the less reason he has to be on Horus’ flagship of doom and destruction. Teleporting rank and file guardsmen tasked with storming chaos infested ships have never been a thing and never will be.

With Pius you have two options. Either leave him out of the story entirely, or give him a reason to be there. BL chose the latter option. That’s just how things are. Accept it and move on with your life.

Or... he was actually a Naval Armsman, who do (in 40k at least) regularly get transported aboard chaos infested ships to try and scuttle them. :p

I know, I know, saying he was a Time Lord is one thing, but how dare I suggest he was Navy instead of Army?!

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
The more sphesshul you make Pius, the less his sacrifice matters.

The point was, he was an ordinary person who saw who Horus was and tried to stop him. No personal attachments. No commitments. He had no obligation to take a stand. Yet he did anyways.

Making him a perpetual or the Emperor's son or an alligator doesn't make him cooler; it makes him boring. Imagine if they gave Batman actual superpowers to try and spice him up. It would just be dumb.

It goes both ways. The less sphesshul you make Pius, the less reason he has to be on Horus’ flagship of doom and destruction. Teleporting rank and file guardsmen tasked with storming chaos infested ships have never been a thing and never will be.

With Pius you have two options. Either leave him out of the story entirely, or give him a reason to be there. BL chose the latter option. That’s just how things are. Accept it and move on with your life.

Or... he was actually a Naval Armsman, who do (in 40k at least) regularly get transported aboard chaos infested ships to try and scuttle them. :p

I know, I know, saying he was a Time Lord is one thing, but how dare I suggest he was Navy instead of Army?!

Well, it was all Army then, there wasn't a separate Navy from the IG yet, so they could still call him Army and it would fly.

as a side note, I didn't realize they'd done this to Olanius...I'm so glad I stopped spending money on HH books, that's just awful.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
The more sphesshul you make Pius, the less his sacrifice matters.

The point was, he was an ordinary person who saw who Horus was and tried to stop him. No personal attachments. No commitments. He had no obligation to take a stand. Yet he did anyways.

Making him a perpetual or the Emperor's son or an alligator doesn't make him cooler; it makes him boring. Imagine if they gave Batman actual superpowers to try and spice him up. It would just be dumb.

It goes both ways. The less sphesshul you make Pius, the less reason he has to be on Horus’ flagship of doom and destruction. Teleporting rank and file guardsmen tasked with storming chaos infested ships have never been a thing and never will be.

With Pius you have two options. Either leave him out of the story entirely, or give him a reason to be there. BL chose the latter option. That’s just how things are. Accept it and move on with your life.

Or... he was actually a Naval Armsman, who do (in 40k at least) regularly get transported aboard chaos infested ships to try and scuttle them. :p

I know, I know, saying he was a Time Lord is one thing, but how dare I suggest he was Navy instead of Army?!

Well, it was all Army then, there wasn't a separate Navy from the IG yet, so they could still call him Army and it would fly.

as a side note, I didn't realize they'd done this to Olanius...I'm so glad I stopped spending money on HH books, that's just awful.

It was where I drew the line. It showed that the authors didn't have even the remotest understanding of the source material.

Hell, there wasn't even very much source material. Just a few pages of fluff. They could've added a ton of detail without contradicting any of it. Instead, they decided to puke all over what little original fluff there was.

 LoneLictor wrote:
They could've said that he was part of the Emperor's massive boarding party.

Massive boarding party? No such thing haven ever been mentioned. It was always been just the Emperor, his two Primarch sons and their respective soldiers. They were a small cadre of highly elite soldiers taking on the unstoppable beast.

Either you stay faithful to the story based on that old throwaway line about Pius, or you make something new up. You can’t have it both ways.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Or that he was a slave aboard the ship.

If he was a slave to Horus, wouldn’t that mean he had a personal attachment and an obligation to take a stand against Horus?

The point was, he was an ordinary person who saw who Horus was and tried to stop him. No personal attachments. No commitments. He had no obligation to take a stand. Yet he did anyways.

Pius being a slave to Horus would go against the original point wouldn’t it? You’re beginning to contradict yourself.

 LoneLictor wrote:
That would've been a lot better than saying, "HES A TIMELORD CUZ I WATCHED DR WHO BEFOROE I SAT DOWN TO TRY AND WROTED THE HORFUS HORSY".

There simply is no pleasing you people. Go on. Cling on to your fallen idol. Stay salty if that is what you wish for.


The original fluff about Pius was written on the backside of boxes with fragging toy soldiers in them. That was it! There is no holy bible about Pius. All there was about him is an obscure and massively overhyped footnote…

Either you stay faithful to the story based on that old throwaway line about Pius, or you make something new up. You can’t have it both ways.

Because it wasn't originally on Horus' flagship, originally it was in the main palace on the Planet itself that they invaded, he was there then.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
They could've said that he was part of the Emperor's massive boarding party.

Massive boarding party? No such thing haven ever been mentioned. It was always been just the Emperor, his two Primarch sons and their respective soldiers. They were a small cadre of highly elite soldiers taking on the unstoppable beast.

Either you stay faithful to the story based on that old throwaway line about Pius, or you make something new up. You can’t have it both ways.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Or that he was a slave aboard the ship.

If he was a slave to Horus, wouldn’t that mean he had a personal attachment and an obligation to take a stand against Horus?

The point was, he was an ordinary person who saw who Horus was and tried to stop him. No personal attachments. No commitments. He had no obligation to take a stand. Yet he did anyways.

Pius being a slave to Horus would go against the original point wouldn’t it? You’re beginning to contradict yourself.

 LoneLictor wrote:
That would've been a lot better than saying, "HES A TIMELORD CUZ I WATCHED DR WHO BEFOROE I SAT DOWN TO TRY AND WROTED THE HORFUS HORSY".

There simply is no pleasing you people. Go on. Cling on to your fallen idol. Stay salty if that is what you wish for.

Um, actually...the Emperor teleported onto Horus' ship with 10,000 dudes. There's a ton of fluff specifically describing the final assault on the Imperial Palace with ten thousand marines and guardsmen looking to the Emperor as Chaos forces are literally hitting the Eternity Gate with a battering ram. He suffers an emotional crisis, thinking that all is lost, when he detects Horus has let the shields down. He basically gives the signal and the palace stewards teleport all of them onto Horus' battle barge. But all of them get scattered throughout the ship, and there's basically a massive firefight all over the place. I always thought Pius was just one of the guys in the hall during that last stand who got teleported with everyone else.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
They could've said that he was part of the Emperor's massive boarding party.

Massive boarding party? No such thing haven ever been mentioned. It was always been just the Emperor, his two Primarch sons and their respective soldiers. They were a small cadre of highly elite soldiers taking on the unstoppable beast.

Either you stay faithful to the story based on that old throwaway line about Pius, or you make something new up. You can’t have it both ways.

 LoneLictor wrote:
Or that he was a slave aboard the ship.

If he was a slave to Horus, wouldn’t that mean he had a personal attachment and an obligation to take a stand against Horus?

The point was, he was an ordinary person who saw who Horus was and tried to stop him. No personal attachments. No commitments. He had no obligation to take a stand. Yet he did anyways.

Pius being a slave to Horus would go against the original point wouldn’t it? You’re beginning to contradict yourself.

 LoneLictor wrote:
That would've been a lot better than saying, "HES A TIMELORD CUZ I WATCHED DR WHO BEFOROE I SAT DOWN TO TRY AND WROTED THE HORFUS HORSY".

There simply is no pleasing you people. Go on. Cling on to your fallen idol. Stay salty if that is what you wish for.

Um, actually...the Emperor teleported onto Horus' ship with 10,000 dudes. There's a ton of fluff specifically describing the final assault on the Imperial Palace with ten thousand marines and guardsmen looking to the Emperor as Chaos forces are literally hitting the Eternity Gate with a battering ram. He suffers an emotional crisis, thinking that all is lost, when he detects Horus has let the shields down. He basically gives the signal and the palace stewards teleport all of them onto Horus' battle barge. But all of them get scattered throughout the ship, and there's basically a massive firefight all over the place. I always thought Pius was just one of the guys in the hall during that last stand who got teleported with everyone else.

Wow the versions of the horus heresy are many, thats a new one.

That version does indeed seem very dubious. I think a source is in order.

"The Emperor saw this opportunity and teleported to the Warmaster's battle barge with two of his Primarchs, Terminator-armoured marines of their Legions, and a number of Custodes." - Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy#.U8Wg441dXTB)

"Lowering the shields of his flagship as a lure, the Emperor, Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius, and a force of Imperial Fists teleport aboard the flagship to confront him." - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus_Heresy#Conflict_and_resolution)

"The Emperor of Mankind rose to the challenge, leading members of His elite personal guard, the Legio Custodes, the Primarchs Sanguinius and Rogal Dorn, and several companies of Imperial Fists and Blood Angels Veteran Space Marines in the assault and teleported aboard the Vengeful Spirit." - 40k Wikia (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy)

In every case he's teleporting with a large contingent of dudes. I got in with 3rd edition, so some of the details have clearly changed from time to time. I distinctly remember the passage describing the Emperor's thoughts as Chaos is banging on the door, I'm pretty sure it was a piece in an old White Dwarf from like 2002-2004 (when I still had my subscription).

 TheSilo wrote:
"The Emperor saw this opportunity and teleported to the Warmaster's battle barge with two of his Primarchs, Terminator-armoured marines of their Legions, and a number of Custodes." - Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy#.U8Wg441dXTB)

"Lowering the shields of his flagship as a lure, the Emperor, Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius, and a force of Imperial Fists teleport aboard the flagship to confront him." - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus_Heresy#Conflict_and_resolution)

"The Emperor of Mankind rose to the challenge, leading members of His elite personal guard, the Legio Custodes, the Primarchs Sanguinius and Rogal Dorn, and several companies of Imperial Fists and Blood Angels Veteran Space Marines in the assault and teleported aboard the Vengeful Spirit." - 40k Wikia (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy)

Don't forget about the imperial guard version.

Or the whole Only custodes deal for some reason.

 TheSilo wrote:
"The Emperor saw this opportunity and teleported to the Warmaster's battle barge with two of his Primarchs, Terminator-armoured marines of their Legions, and a number of Custodes." - Lexicanum (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy#.U8Wg441dXTB)

"Lowering the shields of his flagship as a lure, the Emperor, Rogal Dorn, Sanguinius, and a force of Imperial Fists teleport aboard the flagship to confront him." - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus_Heresy#Conflict_and_resolution)

"The Emperor of Mankind rose to the challenge, leading members of His elite personal guard, the Legio Custodes, the Primarchs Sanguinius and Rogal Dorn, and several companies of Imperial Fists and Blood Angels Veteran Space Marines in the assault and teleported aboard the Vengeful Spirit." - 40k Wikia (http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy)

In every case he's teleporting with a large contingent of dudes. I got in with 3rd edition, so some of the details have clearly changed from time to time. I distinctly remember the passage describing the Emperor's thoughts as Chaos is banging on the door, I'm pretty sure it was a piece in an old White Dwarf from like 2002-2004 (when I still had my subscription).

Thanks for finding a bunch of sources when I was too lazy to.

The writers had no reason to change it. They did anyways, and they changed it to make it worse.

Nothing in those links says anything about guardsmen joining the boarding mission. My point still stands.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Nothing in those links says anything about guardsmen joining the boarding mission. My point still stands.

What point?

Eh my point was? Hmm no counter point perhaps?

I don't remember anymore. I think it’s time for me to sleep.

I didn't realise so many people hated the Horus Heresy novels, I think they're pretty good, some of them (Legion, First Heretic, Know No Fear) are excellent.

ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't realise so many people hated the Horus Heresy novels, I think they're pretty good, some of them (Legion, First Heretic, Know No Fear) are excellent.

Or the first books weren't that bad.

Like the first part of the horus hersey Istavan 3.

On the one hand I kind of like that the fluff can morph, like myths, with details changing. It makes a lot of sense that the different Imperial institutions would put their own character in the place of Pius/Custodes/IF Terminator/etc.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Nothing in those links says anything about guardsmen joining the boarding mission. My point still stands.

The mini boardgame Warmaster that was featured in WD 161 includes Imperial Guard units in the Emperor's boarding party, as well as Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Dorn and Sanguinius, and Assassins.

The Emperor believed this would be his only chance to defeat Horus. He was going to take every loyal gun that he could spare from the defense of the Palace with him.

ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't realise so many people hated the Horus Heresy novels, I think they're pretty good, some of them (Legion, First Heretic, Know No Fear) are excellent.

It's the same as any prequals to a series with long standing love. yes you get some valid complaints but most of them are "THIS ISN'T EXACTLY HOW I IMAGINED IT TO HAPPEN HOW DARE THEY!"

as it is we don't even know how this'll all play out. for all we know the Pius of history is some 16 year old kid who stole Oly's ID and signed up and was sent onto the ship because the emperor thought he was a perpetual.... actually that'd be kind of amusing

BrianDavion wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't realise so many people hated the Horus Heresy novels, I think they're pretty good, some of them (Legion, First Heretic, Know No Fear) are excellent.

It's the same as any prequals to a series with long standing love. yes you get some valid complaints but most of them are "THIS ISN'T EXACTLY HOW I IMAGINED IT TO HAPPEN HOW DARE THEY!"

as it is we don't even know how this'll all play out. for all we know the Pius of history is some 16 year old kid who stole Oly's ID and signed up and was sent onto the ship because the emperor thought he was a perpetual.... actually that'd be kind of amusing

Not really that its more of. Why did you have to explain certain things. We get it it was epic. But stop writing about them!

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
Mortarion getting a tattoo on his heart. A daemon primarch should not be so easily defeated. I like the GK but that was just bull.

Agreed.

 Asherian Command wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't realise so many people hated the Horus Heresy novels, I think they're pretty good, some of them (Legion, First Heretic, Know No Fear) are excellent.

It's the same as any prequals to a series with long standing love. yes you get some valid complaints but most of them are "THIS ISN'T EXACTLY HOW I IMAGINED IT TO HAPPEN HOW DARE THEY!"

as it is we don't even know how this'll all play out. for all we know the Pius of history is some 16 year old kid who stole Oly's ID and signed up and was sent onto the ship because the emperor thought he was a perpetual.... actually that'd be kind of amusing

Not really that its more of. Why did you have to explain certain things. We get it it was epic. But stop writing about them!

except there's demand for it. the HH novels are the best selling books in the 40k novel line.

the thing to remember is that EVERYTHING we thought we knew about the Horus Heresy are legends and myth. we can't get too angry when the facts as we thought we knew them turn out to be differnt. it's like being up set to find out the reality of the man behind the Myth of King Arthur was differnt

BrianDavion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't realise so many people hated the Horus Heresy novels, I think they're pretty good, some of them (Legion, First Heretic, Know No Fear) are excellent.

It's the same as any prequals to a series with long standing love. yes you get some valid complaints but most of them are "THIS ISN'T EXACTLY HOW I IMAGINED IT TO HAPPEN HOW DARE THEY!"

as it is we don't even know how this'll all play out. for all we know the Pius of history is some 16 year old kid who stole Oly's ID and signed up and was sent onto the ship because the emperor thought he was a perpetual.... actually that'd be kind of amusing

Not really that its more of. Why did you have to explain certain things. We get it it was epic. But stop writing about them!

except there's demand for it. the HH novels are the best selling books in the 40k novel line.

the thing to remember is that EVERYTHING we thought we knew about the Horus Heresy are legends and myth. we can't get too angry when the facts as we thought we knew them turn out to be differnt. it's like being up set to find out the reality of the man behind the Myth of King Arthur was differnt

Actually I would be interested in the king arthur myth's truth.

But in this it is executed poorly. I rather learn about the myth of the men, to know they are human inside, not just badasses. This is one of the reasons why the burning of prospero is everyone's favorite book series.

Dang, I friggin' love the HH novels.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't realise so many people hated the Horus Heresy novels, I think they're pretty good, some of them (Legion, First Heretic, Know No Fear) are excellent.

It's the same as any prequals to a series with long standing love. yes you get some valid complaints but most of them are "THIS ISN'T EXACTLY HOW I IMAGINED IT TO HAPPEN HOW DARE THEY!"

as it is we don't even know how this'll all play out. for all we know the Pius of history is some 16 year old kid who stole Oly's ID and signed up and was sent onto the ship because the emperor thought he was a perpetual.... actually that'd be kind of amusing

Not really that its more of. Why did you have to explain certain things. We get it it was epic. But stop writing about them!

except there's demand for it. the HH novels are the best selling books in the 40k novel line.

the thing to remember is that EVERYTHING we thought we knew about the Horus Heresy are legends and myth. we can't get too angry when the facts as we thought we knew them turn out to be differnt. it's like being up set to find out the reality of the man behind the Myth of King Arthur was differnt

Yes, it could've been much different.

But would you honestly be happy with a series of books about King Arthur where it turns out that he's a 43 black woman fighting to open a laundromat in downtown LA? Sure, the myths aren't 100% accurate, but do the authors really need to actively hate the myths? Should people who have contempt for the original be trusted with writing an adaptation?

Ollanius Pius is a timelord. Horus turned traitor because someone showed him a picture of the future where his statue was missing. The God Emperor was an atheist who hated Gods! Fulgrim was possessed and then possessed by a Daemon just to fill up space without actually having a fething story. Alpharius turned traitor to save the Imperium - an idea which doesn't make sense, was unnecessary, and essentially is a big F U to Alpha Legion fans. Battle for the Abyss is an entire novel about nothing.

Oh, and there are going to be about 600 more novels before we actually hit the Battle for Terra. Galaxy In Flames was the last Horus Heresy novel to actually advance the plot.

Worst Fluff-

For me, In order top 5 worst fluff moments:

1: Draigo- enough said.

2: Blood Angels and Necrons

3: Multi lasers on everyting, or rather anything by C.S. Goto

4: Hints that Machine Cult is necron cult...

5: Squigs being renegade tyranids made from ork biomass that the tyranids -freely- let go back to the Orks because they could not be incorporated into the hive mind.

Oh I forgot. How all the space marines want to be like the ultramarines. Even the alpha legion. They said all space marines want to be ultramarines. So that applies to chaos legions.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Oh I forgot. How all the space marines want to be like the ultramarines. Even the alpha legion. They said all space marines want to be ultramarines. So that applies to chaos legions.

Totally, dude. Some Chaos Marines want to be Ultramarines so bad they wear Ultramarine faces and heads all over their armor.

 LoneLictor wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't realise so many people hated the Horus Heresy novels, I think they're pretty good, some of them (Legion, First Heretic, Know No Fear) are excellent.

It's the same as any prequals to a series with long standing love. yes you get some valid complaints but most of them are "THIS ISN'T EXACTLY HOW I IMAGINED IT TO HAPPEN HOW DARE THEY!"

as it is we don't even know how this'll all play out. for all we know the Pius of history is some 16 year old kid who stole Oly's ID and signed up and was sent onto the ship because the emperor thought he was a perpetual.... actually that'd be kind of amusing

Not really that its more of. Why did you have to explain certain things. We get it it was epic. But stop writing about them!

except there's demand for it. the HH novels are the best selling books in the 40k novel line.

the thing to remember is that EVERYTHING we thought we knew about the Horus Heresy are legends and myth. we can't get too angry when the facts as we thought we knew them turn out to be differnt. it's like being up set to find out the reality of the man behind the Myth of King Arthur was differnt

Yes, it could've been much different.

But would you honestly be happy with a series of books about King Arthur where it turns out that he's a 43 black woman fighting to open a laundromat in downtown LA? Sure, the myths aren't 100% accurate, but do the authors really need to actively hate the myths? Should people who have contempt for the original be trusted with writing an adaptation?

Ollanius Pius is a timelord. Horus turned traitor because someone showed him a picture of the future where his statue was missing. The God Emperor was an atheist who hated Gods! Fulgrim was possessed and then possessed by a Daemon just to fill up space without actually having a fething story. Alpharius turned traitor to save the Imperium - an idea which doesn't make sense, was unnecessary, and essentially is a big F U to Alpha Legion fans. Battle for the Abyss is an entire novel about nothing.

Oh, and there are going to be about 600 more novels before we actually hit the Battle for Terra. Galaxy In Flames was the last Horus Heresy novel to actually advance the plot.

except your king arthur comparison is invalid. this isn't a case of them "hating" the original source material. this is a case of "well in this version of King Arthur, exclibur was a gift from Lady D'Lac, not the lady of the lake."

all the examples you cite mostly are things that make sense. Horus turned traitor because he was convinced that he wasn't going to be rememebred and rewarded for the victory, even before he fell he was a bit concerned, the Empire seemed to be being turned over to a council of humans. he was afraid that when the war was won, he and his sons would be swept aside and forgotten. by a father who, for all his words, did not really love him.
As for the God emperor, that's a delicious bit of irony all things considered isn't it?
Fulgrim's fate was never really discussed prior to the HH books. we can say if we like it or not but one can't say it ruined old fluff.

the alpha legion, well it does explain why their war cry is still "for the emperor"


anyway the plot has advanced since the last novels. it's been slow because we already know whats happened. so they wanna fill in all the details they can. One can't fault a book series for taking the scenic root when the entire purpose of a prequal is "it's not the destination it's the Journey"

 LoneLictor wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:
I didn't realise so many people hated the Horus Heresy novels, I think they're pretty good, some of them (Legion, First Heretic, Know No Fear) are excellent.

It's the same as any prequals to a series with long standing love. yes you get some valid complaints but most of them are "THIS ISN'T EXACTLY HOW I IMAGINED IT TO HAPPEN HOW DARE THEY!"

as it is we don't even know how this'll all play out. for all we know the Pius of history is some 16 year old kid who stole Oly's ID and signed up and was sent onto the ship because the emperor thought he was a perpetual.... actually that'd be kind of amusing

Not really that its more of. Why did you have to explain certain things. We get it it was epic. But stop writing about them!

except there's demand for it. the HH novels are the best selling books in the 40k novel line.

the thing to remember is that EVERYTHING we thought we knew about the Horus Heresy are legends and myth. we can't get too angry when the facts as we thought we knew them turn out to be differnt. it's like being up set to find out the reality of the man behind the Myth of King Arthur was differnt

Yes, it could've been much different.

But would you honestly be happy with a series of books about King Arthur where it turns out that he's a 43 black woman fighting to open a laundromat in downtown LA? Sure, the myths aren't 100% accurate, but do the authors really need to actively hate the myths? Should people who have contempt for the original be trusted with writing an adaptation?

Ollanius Pius is a timelord. Horus turned traitor because someone showed him a picture of the future where his statue was missing. The God Emperor was an atheist who hated Gods! Fulgrim was possessed and then possessed by a Daemon just to fill up space without actually having a fething story. Alpharius turned traitor to save the Imperium - an idea which doesn't make sense, was unnecessary, and essentially is a big F U to Alpha Legion fans. Battle for the Abyss is an entire novel about nothing.

Oh, and there are going to be about 600 more novels before we actually hit the Battle for Terra. Galaxy In Flames was the last Horus Heresy novel to actually advance the plot.

The first 2 I'll give you. But the Emperor is only a god emperor because people decided they wanted to worship him, he isn't a god, just a weird superhuman thing. He hates gods, and didn't want to be worshipped. I don't get how the Alpha Legion is a big FU to AL fans as we still don't know what's going on with them, it looks like the 2 primarchs have different ideas about what they want... I haven't read battle for the abyss because I've heard it's crap but you can't judge a whole series on one crap book. And Gakaxy in Flames being the last novel to advance the plot is just ridiculous hyperbole.

Yes there's a few wtf moments but that was bound to happen with so many writers working on one series, and on the whole the books are pretty good. And as said before clearly other people agree as they're the best selling BL books...

To be fair, the lore of the Emperor hating gods is actually rather recent.

It does kinda make sense though, if people are gonna worship gods, then they'd be happy to worship the chaos gods, so I can see why he wants to quash all god-worship.

I'll admit that I don't fully understand the hatred for the HH novels. (Probably my fault.) I've loved most of them so far. There's only two that I haven't read and I'm about to finish Forgotten Empire.
As someone who's always wondered about the Horus Heresy since RT days, I'm really enjoying this journey.

I never liked the BA fluff concerning the Sin of Damnation and bringing the chapter down to 53 (?) Battle Brothers at one point. Just seems excessive and hokey (even by GW standards) to have such a venerated legion that close to extinction, but flash forward to M41 and hey we're back to thousand!

Might as well have Dante sitting around a campfire telling the scouts how he walked a 1,000 miles in the snow uphill both ways to get to the battlefield.... There's a difference between epic storytelling and hyperbole.

BrianDavion wrote:
the thing to remember is that EVERYTHING we thought we knew about the Horus Heresy are legends and myth. we can't get too angry when the facts as we thought we knew them turn out to be differnt. it's like being up set to find out the reality of the man behind the Myth of King Arthur was differnt

That's the thing. The problem is not that the 'facts' are different from how we imagined them, it's that they took the ephemeral, mysterious, mutable lore of those deep past events, a place where there is little in the way of 'facts', and nailed it all down. It could have been good, it could have been bad, quality isn't the issue, it's that they solidified it all.

Why is that an issue?

I for one quite enjoy the Heresy series, and think it's generally rather well written- superior to Codex fluff in most instances.

Why should I be denied that fluff because you think the events it surrounds should be dull and "mysterious"? Why don't you just not read it and ignore it?

blaktoof wrote:

5: Squigs being renegade tyranids made from ork biomass that the tyranids -freely- let go back to the Orks because they could not be incorporated into the hive mind.

That hasn't been mentioned for what, 15 years? Sounds like second edition Ork fluff to me, before either race was fleshed out to the extent that they are today.

More recent Ork fluff has clearly identified Squigs as one of the early stages of a natural Orkology.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Ollanius Pius is a timelord.

Stupid but not noteworthy. Not yet anyway.

Horus turned traitor because someone showed him a picture of the future where his statue was missing.

Yeah Horus' fall was lame.

The God Emperor was an atheist who hated Gods!

One of the best twists of the Heresy, 10/10.

Fulgrim was possessed and then possessed by a Daemon just to fill up space without actually having a fething story.

What a nonsensical statement. There was a story. It was a story about Fulgrim being ensnared and ultimately possessed by a Daemon. Like what happens to many men and women in the 40k universe, showing that the power of Chaos can dominate even the mightiest of men. And it showed that for all their power, the Primarchs are still but men.

Fulgrim was a great book.

Alpharius turned traitor to save the Imperium - an idea which doesn't make sense, was unnecessary, and essentially is a big F U to Alpha Legion fans. Battle for the Abyss is an entire novel about nothing.

Yeah the Alpha Legion suck and Battle of the Abyss was filler.

Oh, and there are going to be about 600 more novels before we actually hit the Battle for Terra. Galaxy In Flames was the last Horus Heresy novel to actually advance the plot.

What an outright false claim to make.

A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns were not only good, but necessary. Same with Flight of the Eisenstein, or Fulgrim. Or Fear to Tread. Or especially The First Heretic.

Get over your bias man.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why is that an issue?

I for one quite enjoy the Heresy series, and think it's generally rather well written- superior to Codex fluff in most instances.

Why should I be denied that fluff because you think the events it surrounds should be dull and "mysterious"? Why don't you just not read it and ignore it?

"Oh, but if it was left mysterious it could be left to the player to deci-"

I don't care about what you or any other player think might have happened. If someone wants to write fanfiction, that's fine, but don't expect GW or BL to bend over backwards to accommodate it. Just ignore the parts you don't like and move on.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Why is that an issue?

I for one quite enjoy the Heresy series, and think it's generally rather well written- superior to Codex fluff in most instances.

Why should I be denied that fluff because you think the events it surrounds should be dull and "mysterious"? Why don't you just not read it and ignore it?

To be honest; I do ignore the stuff hammered out in the Heresy books. But that makes me 'the crazy one'.

Before all theories were equally crazy, and equally valid, everybody was right and everybody was wrong. Now: One theory is valid, all the rest are crazy. Putting the people who want to think the emperor could not possibly have been that stupid in the same camp as the female SM, and 'Xenos are just propaganda' people.

 fallinq wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Oh I forgot. How all the space marines want to be like the ultramarines. Even the alpha legion. They said all space marines want to be ultramarines. So that applies to chaos legions.

Totally, dude. Some Chaos Marines want to be Ultramarines so bad they wear Ultramarine faces and heads all over their armor.

The Ultramarines are the reason I turned traitor

Mechanicum was an important plot moment too, although it does show that the time line of the book releases and the time line of the book events are totally unrelated - Mars fell towards the very end of the Heresy.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Fulgrim was possessed and then possessed by a Daemon just to fill up space without actually having a fething story.

What a nonsensical statement. There was a story. It was a story about Fulgrim being ensnared and ultimately possessed by a Daemon. Like what happens to many men and women in the 40k universe, showing that the power of Chaos can dominate even the mightiest of men. And it showed that for all their power, the Primarchs are still but men.

I think V__D that the problem is that Fulgrim casts the Daemon out and the whole 'Primarchs are just men' thing was cheapened by it, as clearly, they aren't. Ok, a Primarch is a being who is powerful and if anyone can cast out a Daemon on their own accord, it is going to be a Primarch. But then why even have the possession in there at all if Fulgrim is just going to become a Daemon anyway. Might as well have stuck to the pre FFG fluff where it's Fulgrims actions that gain him ascension, not some ritual. Personally, I really didn't like Fulgrim, but I enjoyed it more after The Reflection Crack'd came out as it seemed to correct the story somewhat.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

What an outright false claim to make.

A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns were not only good, but necessary. Same with Flight of the Eisenstein, or Fulgrim. Or Fear to Tread. Or especially The First Heretic.

Get over your bias man.

I don't know if its bias as you both have a point. We don't know how many HH stories there are going to be. Apart from the main books, look at all the short stories, novellas and audio books. How relevant are they to the plot? I have no idea as I can't keep up with what is going on. How necessary are Battle for the Abyss (which has pieces that get forgotten in later books), Nemesis, Legion or Betrayer to the actual story? Each might have some tie to the main story of course, but they could quite easily be their own stories.

Largely, I am enjoying the HH series like you, and in most cases am glad that they are given us books like the ones I have mentioned that might not be required, because we are getting that additional insight into what happened throughout its entire course. But then there is part of me that thinks they are given us too much filler when they could be giving us what we need to know, rather than cow milking, and that having it stooped in mystery was more enjoyable.

I would love to have a Horus Heresy Encyclopedia which just gives us facts and narration, much like the way Forge World have given us. Collected Visions style, but complete.

Atheist = someone that does not believe in god/gods. The Emperor absolutely believes in them...and wants to destroy them. Buying killing off belief in gods, they lose all their power. I guess it's his way of breaking hus deal with chaos; received help making the primarchs, then kills off chaos so he doesn't have to make good on his side of the bargain. Chaos sees what he is doing so they corrupt his greatest creation. Good stuff.

I absolutely hate with all my heart the Tau empire. They don't have an epic background (or a good enough lack off one) like the other races, plus they look and feel totally out of place in the WH40K universe. I'd love to see them completely wiped out of the setting.

 Musashi363 wrote:
Atheist = someone that does not believe in god/gods. The Emperor absolutely believes in them...and wants to destroy them. Buying killing off belief in gods, they lose all their power. I guess it's his way of breaking hus deal with chaos; received help making the primarchs, then kills off chaos so he doesn't have to make good on his side of the bargain. Chaos sees what he is doing so they corrupt his greatest creation. Good stuff.

The Emperor simply acknowledged there were some creatures on an higher plane of existence that wanted to eat the feth out of human race vital energy (or whatever you want to describe CG purpose). He didn't considered them "gods" in the literal sense of the word.

 Musashi363 wrote:
Atheist = someone that does not believe in god/gods. The Emperor absolutely believes in them...and wants to destroy them. Buying killing off belief in gods, they lose all their power. I guess it's his way of breaking hus deal with chaos; received help making the primarchs, then kills off chaos so he doesn't have to make good on his side of the bargain. Chaos sees what he is doing so they corrupt his greatest creation. Good stuff.

Considering the rumors that the four chaos gods are just daemons of a stronger caliber that could get followers, it would make sense if the Emperor just believed them to be stronger daemons he needs to stomp out hard.

 fallinq wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Oh I forgot. How all the space marines want to be like the ultramarines. Even the alpha legion. They said all space marines want to be ultramarines. So that applies to chaos legions.

Totally, dude. Some Chaos Marines want to be Ultramarines so bad they wear Ultramarine faces and heads all over their armor.

But that is only because Ultramarines are so awesome, everyone wants to be them.

See:

How necessary are Battle for the Abyss (which has pieces that get forgotten in later books), Nemesis, Legion or Betrayer to the actual story?

I've actually not even read Nemisis so... not very? Battle for the Abyss was largely pointless too (although it was intreasting simply because it had loyalist members of traitor legions, it gave us a glimpse into how confused the early days of the Heresy likely where) I'd argue Betrayer was extremely important. it gave us a look at the World eaters and important events within that Legion, it may not have brought the legions to the gates of Terra but it taught us a fair bit about the world eaters. try finding a world eaters fan and telling them Betrayer was a useless book and I think they'd disagree. The same arguement can be brought fourth for Legion. explaining why the alpha legion went traitor, and giving us a look inside them, is hardly useless. Thats one thing worth noting about the filler novels. What one person considers filler, another person could consider an "important novel about my favorite legion"

 Happyjew wrote:
But that is only because Ultramarines are so awesome, everyone wants to be them.

See:

I'll take dis git over Calgar any day.

BrianDavion wrote:

How necessary are Battle for the Abyss (which has pieces that get forgotten in later books), Nemesis, Legion or Betrayer to the actual story?

I've actually not even read Nemisis so... not very? Battle for the Abyss was largely pointless too (although it was intreasting simply because it had loyalist members of traitor legions, it gave us a glimpse into how confused the early days of the Heresy likely where) I'd argue Betrayer was extremely important. it gave us a look at the World eaters and important events within that Legion, it may not have brought the legions to the gates of Terra but it taught us a fair bit about the world eaters. try finding a world eaters fan and telling them Betrayer was a useless book and I think they'd disagree. The same arguement can be brought fourth for Legion. explaining why the alpha legion went traitor, and giving us a look inside them, is hardly useless. Thats one thing worth noting about the filler novels. What one person considers filler, another person could consider an "important novel about my favorite legion"

Nemesis is more of a side story than part of the main plotline (where in Battle for the Abyss, absolutely nothing happened). Basically, Nemesis is a "behind the scenes" look at two secret plots to assassinate the Emperor and Horus (of course, we all know how that will turn out before it happens) and the part of the Horus Heresy that took place within the Officio Assassinorium. It's not strictly "necessary," and probably won't be referenced in other books because it was all secret, but if you're a fan of the Officio Assassinorium, it's pretty good. And the argument that you already know what's going to happen destroys tension could be made for the entire Horus Heresy.

Any fluff concerning stubborn SM chapters having their companies or entire compliment of warriors wiped out because they don't know when to quit. I get that they're human at least in part, but this gak is idiotic. Makes for great fluffy last stands, which I love, but when you look at the big picture it's too stupid for words.

Marines having an infinite supply of grenades. Seriously, read the Space Wolf stories (I still love them to pieces), but Ragnar and his homies have like a thousand grenades and melta bombs.

I actually thought Legion was one of the best books in the series, even if it all does kind of make no sense.

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
I'll take dis git over Calgar any day.

"Shoot da choppy ones! Chop da shooty ones! Waaagh!"

- Codex Astartes, the revised edition

tgjensen wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
I'll take dis git over Calgar any day.

"Shoot da choppy ones! Chop da shooty ones! Waaagh!"

- Codex Astartes, the revised edition

"DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!!!!"
- Codex Astartes Volume 2, the revised edition

 Frankenberry wrote:
Any fluff concerning stubborn SM chapters having their companies or entire compliment of warriors wiped out because they don't know when to quit. I get that they're human at least in part, but this gak is idiotic. Makes for great fluffy last stands, which I love, but when you look at the big picture it's too stupid for words.

Marines having an infinite supply of grenades. Seriously, read the Space Wolf stories (I still love them to pieces), but Ragnar and his homies have like a thousand grenades and melta bombs.

Except that this sort of thing happens all the time in history. Japan and Russia in World War 2 would order their soldiers to hold no matter the cost, resulting in tons of suicidal defenses, resulting in the decimation of entire army groups.

Germany did this too. Quite a bit, actually. There were some units that couldn't fall back unless given permission from Uncle Addie himself.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Any fluff concerning stubborn SM chapters having their companies or entire compliment of warriors wiped out because they don't know when to quit. I get that they're human at least in part, but this gak is idiotic. Makes for great fluffy last stands, which I love, but when you look at the big picture it's too stupid for words.

Marines having an infinite supply of grenades. Seriously, read the Space Wolf stories (I still love them to pieces), but Ragnar and his homies have like a thousand grenades and melta bombs.

Except that this sort of thing happens all the time in history. Japan and Russia in World War 2 would order their soldiers to hold no matter the cost, resulting in tons of suicidal defenses, resulting in the decimation of entire army groups.

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

 Selym wrote:

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

I believe his point was that if Space Marines do it with any consistency then they'd rapidly be wiped out. It's one thing for the Imperial Guard or PDF to do it; it's another for the some of best trained, most expensive and rare troops of the Imperium to throw their lives away.

But not all Space Marines do this and it has been pointed out that only the most stubborn of Space Marines will not fall back and would rather die a glorious death than retreat, however the rest of the Space Marines think that this is stupid. There are times when the last stand is not avoidable and you go down fighting but the majority of Space Marines do not willingly or constantly put them selves in situations were they die and if they do then it's because there are no other options.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

I believe his point was that if Space Marines do it with any consistency then they'd rapidly be wiped out. It's one thing for the Imperial Guard or PDF to do it; it's another for the some of best trained, most expensive and rare troops of the Imperium to throw their lives away.

The problem is though, that SM fight far more for honor and glory than much else, resulting in many of them (as per fluff) just sitting there like a bunch of plebs, waiting to run out of ammo and die.

It would make more sense for them to just do a fly/drive by with the heaviest weapons available (as per early SAS), but then you wouldn't have a TT game.
Nor would you really have a story, for that matter, as combat situations would last mere minutes, and have many months between deployment, even on the same planet (as per modern Spec Ops).

 Selym wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

I believe his point was that if Space Marines do it with any consistency then they'd rapidly be wiped out. It's one thing for the Imperial Guard or PDF to do it; it's another for the some of best trained, most expensive and rare troops of the Imperium to throw their lives away.

The problem is though, that SM fight far more for honor and glory than much else, resulting in many of them (as per fluff) just sitting there like a bunch of plebs, waiting to run out of ammo and die.

It would make more sense for them to just do a fly/drive by with the heaviest weapons available (as per early SAS), but then you wouldn't have a TT game.
Nor would you really have a story, for that matter, as combat situations would last mere minutes, and have many months between deployment, even on the same planet (as per modern Spec Ops).

As per the flyby idea. No. If your enemy has anti-aircraft weapons you're flying your men into a killzone, ground battles are often the only choice. Look at Siege of Vraks for an example.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

I believe his point was that if Space Marines do it with any consistency then they'd rapidly be wiped out. It's one thing for the Imperial Guard or PDF to do it; it's another for the some of best trained, most expensive and rare troops of the Imperium to throw their lives away.

The problem is though, that SM fight far more for honor and glory than much else, resulting in many of them (as per fluff) just sitting there like a bunch of plebs, waiting to run out of ammo and die.

It would make more sense for them to just do a fly/drive by with the heaviest weapons available (as per early SAS), but then you wouldn't have a TT game.
Nor would you really have a story, for that matter, as combat situations would last mere minutes, and have many months between deployment, even on the same planet (as per modern Spec Ops).

As per the flyby idea. No. If your enemy has anti-aircraft weapons you're flying your men into a killzone, ground battles are often the only choice. Look at Siege of Vraks for an example.

Well, anything that works as a quick destructive assault would do. It's not necessary to fight a pitched battle all the time. More specialized missions would be the SM's forte, such as "Blow up this void shield generator", or "Kill this one target", or "Hit and Run on this airbase". Smash the enemy quickly, and have the basic troopers do the holding-the-line/cleanup.

But SM's wouldn't work in the 40k TT as that kind of force, as they'd just be a bigger and meaner Militarum Tempestus. And as we all know, the BL books are supposed to be a supporting product to the miniatures line, and thus end up trying to get a SM force in a pitched battle/last stand (with many exceptions, admittedly).

Well, the SM kinda are just bigger, meaner stormtroopers.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well, the SM kinda are just bigger, meaner stormtroopers.

I mean in the sense of always being attached to an IG army, stuck in reserves, deepstriking into the field, and doing one specific thing. And probably sans predators.

 Selym wrote:

 BrotherOfBone wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

And as we all know, the IOM has plenty of rulers/commanders/authorities that are far too egomaniacal to back down.
Inquisitors, Planetary Governors, Prideful Spehss Mehreenz, etc.

I believe his point was that if Space Marines do it with any consistency then they'd rapidly be wiped out. It's one thing for the Imperial Guard or PDF to do it; it's another for the some of best trained, most expensive and rare troops of the Imperium to throw their lives away.

The problem is though, that SM fight far more for honor and glory than much else, resulting in many of them (as per fluff) just sitting there like a bunch of plebs, waiting to run out of ammo and die.

It would make more sense for them to just do a fly/drive by with the heaviest weapons available (as per early SAS), but then you wouldn't have a TT game.
Nor would you really have a story, for that matter, as combat situations would last mere minutes, and have many months between deployment, even on the same planet (as per modern Spec Ops).

As per the flyby idea. No. If your enemy has anti-aircraft weapons you're flying your men into a killzone, ground battles are often the only choice. Look at Siege of Vraks for an example.

Well, anything that works as a quick destructive assault would do. It's not necessary to fight a pitched battle all the time. More specialized missions would be the SM's forte, such as "Blow up this void shield generator", or "Kill this one target", or "Hit and Run on this airbase". Smash the enemy quickly, and have the basic troopers do the holding-the-line/cleanup.

But SM's wouldn't work in the 40k TT as that kind of force, as they'd just be a bigger and meaner Militarum Tempestus. And as we all know, the BL books are supposed to be a supporting product to the miniatures line, and thus end up trying to get a SM force in a pitched battle/last stand (with many exceptions, admittedly).

But this is, fluff-wise, how Space Marines normally fight. Quick surgical strikes on the most vulnerable / important targets. They get in fast, they annihilate their primary target, they destroy everything else they can without jeopardizing themselves, and then they get out before the enemy can bring their bulk to bear. There are exceptions, but those are supposed to be when their hand is forced. The enemy is launching an all-out assault on something they MUST defend, this specific thing MUST be destroyed / die, we are so trapped in this Space Hulk and absolutely MUSt press on further.

Granted, this isn't what most of the stories are about. The stories are usually about the pitched battles and last stands.. But that's because they're more interesting even if they're not supposed to be the norm. Lets face it, reading about how a strong force of marine were dropped into a lightly defended zone and launched a sneak-attack so precise the enemy barely got a shot off just isn't great to read over-and-over again.