I personnaly would go for Grey Knights murdering Sister of Battle, bath in their blood to fight a major daemon of Khorn. To me, it represent perfectly the idea that Grey Knight are idiots. Nothing better than spending time, amunition and perhapse even brothers killing Sisters instead of helping them win the day. I suppose beeig so small in numbers Grey Knight forgot that strengh can come from number. Plus, bathing in blood to fight scions of the God of rage, war and... well bloodshed seems to be a very stupid thing to do. Ironically, I consider it the worst not because of all these reasons, but because it could be an excellent piece of fiction if well put. You can catch in the noble heroisme of the Grey Knights, the martyr and selfless nature of Sisters and the monstrosity of Khorn's servents. Add some intense action scenea a false romance and you got yourself a good Black Library novel. What's your opinion
The Damnos Warzone book bothers me the most.
Calgar running up and forcefully turning a misfiring Necron Pylon to shoot down a Tesseract Vault.
The escaped C'Tan ripping the planet apart until Sicarius runs up to it just in time to chuck a vortex grenade at it. A grenade he only had because his old friend in the allied Deathwatch squad gave it to him.
Unfortunately a lot of space marine background these days is absolutely awful from Draigo to a single squad of marines wiping out thousands of Dark Eldar without suffering a single casualty it just so awful to even try reading. Hard to pick just one example, but space wolves are at least in the running for the worst background out of all the space marine chapters.
Oh good Isha, I forgot about that crap. I really don't get the hate for the necron fluff update, it turned the faction from being a one-dimensional group to one with potential for actual characters while still allowing those who want the old style to keep it. IDK just feels like a mix of ward hate and refusing to accept any change whenever I hear someone complain about the necron update especially when using the term Newcrons.
Generally the pieces of background that make one (or both sides) just look bad. This includes the pieces of background that make the Imperium so ludicrously inefficient that every other faction must be horrendously incompetent as well for it to still be standing.
Also significant amounts of battles Avatar's participate in are beginning to bug me. Avatar's are supposed to be supreme tacticians yet seem to never be portrayed as coordinating the army or having any impact on the battle beyond simply fighting in melee. Their greatest impact should be how they affect and direct the Eldar army not how well they can swing a sword.
epronovost wrote:I personnaly would go for Grey Knights murdering Sister of Battle, bath in their blood to fight a major daemon of Khorn.
To say they bathed in their blood is an exaggeration. They used pure blood to essentially cast a spell to protect them. The Codex emphasised that the Grey Knights have no problem in using such rituals. I honestly don't think it's a bad piece of background. It highlights their willingness to do anything to get the job done.
Anything where there is talk of Space Marines rolling around or slinging a sword across their backs, the author clearly forgetting there's a chuffing great power generator on the marines back.
Oh, and authors forgetting Space Marine power armour has auto-senses - with their helmet on, they don't see with their eyes or hear with their ears, its all processed by the suit and fed straight to their brain...'retinal display' doesn't mean those pointless lenses in their helmets...
Space Marines -can- roll. Have you seen the Space Marine game? It is probably more difficult but it is entirely possible.
I can roll with a backpack. The backpack is not as large as the Marine backpack, of course, but -I- am an insect next to a Space Marine as well, so it balances out.
Geez, that's hard. There's a lot of good. But, I swear so much of the BL is written by non authors who worked for GW and someone said, "Hey, you wrote a paragraph for a codex once, write a book." And then no one even proof-reads it much less edits it.
So are we asking poorly written, or just stupid to the actual background?
Well written and good for the universe - Reading the Imperial Armor books makes you really love the 40k universe.
Bad - Then you get the Space Marine Codex and Marneus Calgar holds off an entire army by himself for days or whatever. Stupid.
Or some authors write great books - Storm of Iron, then follow with Dead Sky, Black Sun which is clearly full of ripped off Slayer lyrics. WTF?
The worst thing that I have come across though is the Blood Angels/Necron alliance as far as hurting the 40k Universe. Used to be in RT, the Eldar, Squats, and Imperials allied all the time. Then the old background changed around 3rd (I think) where it became very dark and no one was friends anymore. I could see the desperate alliance between Eldar and Imperials nowadays, but with Necrons? No.
Chaos Rising wrote: In the CSM codex it tells how a chapter of space marines where kindanpped by kabalite warriors. Spent days laughing at that.
There was also the Tome of Fire trilogy where in the second book Dark Eldar kidnapped the Company's Chaplain and a large group of Salamanders. Then the rest of the Company went mission impossible and saved the survivors.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: Also significant amounts of battles Avatar's participate in are beginning to bug me. Avatar's are supposed to be supreme tacticians yet seem to never be portrayed as coordinating the army or having any impact on the battle beyond simply fighting in melee. Their greatest impact should be how they affect and direct the Eldar army not how well they can swing a sword..
Er, do you mean Autarchs? Avatars are Gods of War incarnate and are supposed to kill everything...
I really don't get the hate for the necron fluff update, it turned the faction from being a one-dimensional group to one with potential for actual characters while still allowing those who want the old style to keep it. IDK just feels like a mix of ward hate and refusing to accept any change whenever I hear someone complain about the necron update especially when using the term Newcrons.
Some people see it as making a pretty interesting or at least "cool" faction and making parts of it make no sense and/or giving it characters with stupid background. A wonderful example for me is the race with no Warp capability uses the Warp for travel and the thousand year old kleptomaniac.
Er, do you mean Autarchs? Avatars are Gods of War incarnate and are supposed to kill everything...
God of War incarnate doesn't mean it's nothing more than a berserker. Avatars are supposed to be the commander of the army. If I recall correctly in the previous Eldar Codex if you took an Avatar it had to be the Warlord. They're consummate generals not mindless monsters. The Swarmlord is actually described similarly to the Avatar.
Er, do you mean Autarchs? Avatars are Gods of War incarnate and are supposed to kill everything...
God of War incarnate doesn't mean it's nothing more than a berserker. Avatars are supposed to be the commander of the army. If I recall correctly in the previous Eldar Codex if you took an Avatar it had to be the Warlord. They're consummate generals not mindless monsters. The Swarmlord is actually described similarly to the Avatar.
Warlords did not exist when the previous Eldar codex was written. Avatars were, however, still HQs.
Er, do you mean Autarchs? Avatars are Gods of War incarnate and are supposed to kill everything...
God of War incarnate doesn't mean it's nothing more than a berserker. Avatars are supposed to be the commander of the army. If I recall correctly in the previous Eldar Codex if you took an Avatar it had to be the Warlord. They're consummate generals not mindless monsters. The Swarmlord is actually described similarly to the Avatar.
They're HQ's that's it and considering they fill Eldar near them with blinding rage they aren't generals. They might not be a mindless monster but they aren't generals either.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: Also significant amounts of battles Avatar's participate in are beginning to bug me. Avatar's are supposed to be supreme tacticians yet seem to never be portrayed as coordinating the army or having any impact on the battle beyond simply fighting in melee. Their greatest impact should be how they affect and direct the Eldar army not how well they can swing a sword..
Er, do you mean Autarchs? Avatars are Gods of War incarnate and are supposed to kill everything...
I really don't get the hate for the necron fluff update, it turned the faction from being a one-dimensional group to one with potential for actual characters while still allowing those who want the old style to keep it. IDK just feels like a mix of ward hate and refusing to accept any change whenever I hear someone complain about the necron update especially when using the term Newcrons.
Some people see it as making a pretty interesting or at least "cool" faction and making parts of it make no sense and/or giving it characters with stupid background. A wonderful example for me is the race with no Warp capability uses the Warp for travel and the thousand year old kleptomaniac.
Do Avatars even have a record of doing anything badass? Whenever an Avatar of Khaine shows up in W40K, it just seems to always die like a punk to anything from a Space Marine Chapter Master to a Primarch.
Furyou Miko wrote: Avatars and Battle Sisters, these things exist in 40k fluff for one reason, it seems:
To die in order to show how badass the enemy slaying them is.
Well of course. You aren't badass unlss you can kill human women wearing a suit of power armour. If they didn't kill Sisters by the drove, then they would overwhelm everyone and eventually destroy all serious threats to Mankind (IOW Tyranids, Necrons and Chaos).
Eldar are not included because the Sisters being girls would happily sit down to tea and the two of them would braid each others hair and talk about that Guardsman with the cute butt (you know the one).
Oh good Isha, I forgot about that crap. I really don't get the hate for the necron fluff update, it turned the faction from being a one-dimensional group to one with potential for actual characters while still allowing those who want the old style to keep it. IDK just feels like a mix of ward hate and refusing to accept any change whenever I hear someone complain about the necron update especially when using the term Newcrons.
Yeah, I can't say I understand why people don't like that Necron leadership can now have some personality instead of just kill kill kill. I think 40k has enough of that already.
Something I don't like about it is that now Necrons are reliant on the Webway because Matt Ward couldn't come up with another method of travel for the Necrons. Dolmen gates are ridiculous, and that Necron ships are super slow now? You are telling me that a race that can create stable wormholes(monolith portals, invasion beams etc.) can't move a ship faster than the speed of light?
Unfortunately almost all of it. Since last year I have slowly just started to hate most of it. The only fluff I enjoy are the 3rd edition Guard codex fluff. I have not read my 6th edition codex because its so bland, nor have I read 7th edition fluff.
So anything outside of the 3rd edition Guard Codex.
I've always enjoyed the little titbit in the Space Wolf Land Raider description that suggests that a standard LR tactic is to hang around the battlefield with it's assault ramp open so that it can crush any enemy troops that wander inside.
Sigh.
farmersboy wrote: Oh, and authors forgetting Space Marine power armour has auto-senses - with their helmet on, they don't see with their eyes or hear with their ears, its all processed by the suit and fed straight to their brain...'retinal display' doesn't mean those pointless lenses in their helmets...
Dear God yes. "Well, they'd just shoot the lenses!" when discussing anti-Marine tactics comes close as well, for the same reason.
Something I don't like about it is that now Necrons are reliant on the Webway because Matt Ward couldn't come up with another method of travel for the Necrons. Dolmen gates are ridiculous, and that Necron ships are super slow now? You are telling me that a race that can create stable wormholes(monolith portals, invasion beams etc.) can't move a ship faster than the speed of light?
ITT: TruCron players teaching NewCrons about their fluff :/
The rest of the surviving Necron ships and the wounded Dead Hand simply vanished without trace from the auguries [...] one second they registered, and the next they were gone.
Oh good Isha, I forgot about that crap. I really don't get the hate for the necron fluff update, it turned the faction from being a one-dimensional group to one with potential for actual characters while still allowing those who want the old style to keep it. IDK just feels like a mix of ward hate and refusing to accept any change whenever I hear someone complain about the necron update especially when using the term Newcrons.
Yeah, I can't say I understand why people don't like that Necron leadership can now have some personality instead of just kill kill kill. I think 40k has enough of that already.
Something I don't like about it is that now Necrons are reliant on the Webway because Matt Ward couldn't come up with another method of travel for the Necrons. Dolmen gates are ridiculous, and that Necron ships are super slow now? You are telling me that a race that can create stable wormholes(monolith portals, invasion beams etc.) can't move a ship faster than the speed of light?
Take a look at the Fall of Orpehus book it shows that necrons really don't need the webway to move quickly it just another option for them.
Anything Space Wolf. It gets annoying when the Wolf-Priest is talking to the Long Fang about the Fenris Gate and something else that beats 'We're Nords!' into your face over and over again.
Or the Night Lord Trilogy. Biggest foul up I can think of when they reference the previous Night Lords book, and the 1st Captain Zso Sahaal by name and then change the previous fluff they just mentioned by putting in some other 1st Captain. Either mention the previous book and stick to what was in there, or don't mention it and do your own thing. Don't build off the same universe and decide that the main character of the previous book is just some nobody now.
But, if anyone remembers the Inquisition War with Ordo Hydra... A super secret Ordo above Malleus that... does the same thing as Malleus but also uses a warp-fed daemon that is essentially Tzeentch boogers to devour worlds. A Callidus Assassin that becomes a Genestealer, a Rogue Inquisitor and former Space Marine dropping into the Golden Throne for a chat with the split-personality Emperor... Oh that book was an awful bit of non-canonical garbage.
Melissia wrote: Either the GK/SoB incident, or the entirety of the lore behind the Sons of Malice.
Oh god I hate the idea of Malal, and the later incarnation of the same idea, Malice. It's a Chaos God for people who want to be so edgy and hipster they're more chaotic than chaos.
Oh good Isha, I forgot about that crap. I really don't get the hate for the necron fluff update, it turned the faction from being a one-dimensional group to one with potential for actual characters while still allowing those who want the old style to keep it. IDK just feels like a mix of ward hate and refusing to accept any change whenever I hear someone complain about the necron update especially when using the term Newcrons.
Yeah, I can't say I understand why people don't like that Necron leadership can now have some personality instead of just kill kill kill. I think 40k has enough of that already.
Something I don't like about it is that now Necrons are reliant on the Webway because Matt Ward couldn't come up with another method of travel for the Necrons. Dolmen gates are ridiculous, and that Necron ships are super slow now? You are telling me that a race that can create stable wormholes(monolith portals, invasion beams etc.) can't move a ship faster than the speed of light?
Take a look at the Fall of Orpehus book it shows that necrons really don't need the webway to move quickly it just another option for them.
I've read this before and I want it to be true, but sadly I have also heard it said that any lore in a GW publication (The codex) trumps anything in a FW publication(Orpheus).
Don't get me wrong, I essential choose to ignore the Dolmen Gates lore and hope it gets retconned later.
I've read this before and I want it to be true, but sadly I have also heard it said that any lore in a GW publication (The codex) trumps anything in a FW publication(Orpheus).
Whoever told you this should be avoided in the future. What that person said is utter bullpoo. First of all, FW = GW. Any piece of NewCron lore in a FW book is part of the NewCron lore.
Melissia wrote: Either the GK/SoB incident, or the entirety of the lore behind the Sons of Malice.
Oh god I hate the idea of Malal, and the later incarnation of the same idea, Malice. It's a Chaos people who want to be so edgy and hipster they're more chaotic than chaos.
#2edgy4chaos
Ugh, yeah that sucks. Just read it. Seems like preteen fantasy.
Also another bad one, was it Wazdakka that rammed a warbike into a warlord titan and killed it? That was pretty stupid too.
Melissia wrote: Either the GK/SoB incident, or the entirety of the lore behind the Sons of Malice.
Oh god I hate the idea of Malal, and the later incarnation of the same idea, Malice. It's a Chaos people who want to be so edgy and hipster they're more chaotic than chaos.
#2edgy4chaos
Ugh, yeah that sucks. Just read it. Seems like preteen fantasy.
Also another bad one, was it Wazdakka that rammed a warbike into a warlord titan and killed it? That was pretty stupid too.
Pretty sure it was just a Warhound and he killed it with explosives and WHAAAGH energy.
I think the worst bit of fluff was draigo fighting and defeating a primarch. BY HIMSELF.
I got a hundred grey knights killing a primarch, but that was an entire company. An entire company not only that but they all melded their essence into basically a ticking time bomb and when they battle was over the demon banished, the man died for reasons of exploding.
That single piece of fluff pissed me off like no other.
I understood the sisters of battle bit, bathe your self in innocence to protect yourself from evil, because at least that was thought through. With that its just an up scale.
OH look here It took this guy a hundred men to kill a demon by working together. Nah. This guy. Pish THIS GUY. THIS GUY beat a primarch. BY HIMSELF! Why? Because! And he teleports through the warp like the legion of the damned. Yeah lets keep beating this dead pup over and over destroying this idea that only those cursed can use it.
Its just so childish, so over the top that I hate it beyond a belief. That space wolf lore thats passable. But a single grey knight, one that is basically trying to be the Imperium equalivent of Abaddon, is a complete let down and an embrassment to lore.
Heres what I would of done:
1. Made him more reasonable.
2. Due to an unknown demon cursing him to live his life in the warp. Draigo has learned to survive in the warp taking the paths left by daemons and using it to get back to the mortal coil. But once the demons are defeated in the mortal coil he is dragged back into the warp. This has left him scarred and beaten. Nothing is left in this man, just Righteousness and Perseverance. For he is a Hero Among the Grey Knights. And a legend.
3. Make him more grown up. Him staying in the warp proves nothing if we have no details on what he is like a character. He can't just be a badass where nothing degrades him. Living in a place of chaos would hamper your abilities, no matter how strong you are psychologically. Super Human OR NOT!
4. Make him understandable. The Main Reason we all freaking like people Uriel, Loken, and Any of the thousand sons, Is manly because. They are human. They had human qualities. Being human is not a weakness, its a strength and those author's understood that.
Anyway. My reasoning is that Matt Ward, Stop writing childishly. Write like a grown up. Not like the propaganda artists of the 40s.
Asherian Command wrote: I think the worst bit of fluff was draigo fighting and defeating a primarch. BY HIMSELF.
I got a hundred grey knights killing a primarch, but that was an entire company. An entire company not only that but they all melded their essence into basically a ticking time bomb and when they battle was over the demon banished, the man died for reasons of exploding.
That single piece of fluff pissed me off like no other.
I understood the sisters of battle bit, bathe your self in innocence to protect yourself from evil, because at least that was thought through. With that its just an up scale.
OH look here It took this guy a hundred men to kill a demon by working together. Nah. This guy. Pish THIS GUY. THIS GUY beat a primarch. BY HIMSELF! Why? Because! And he teleports through the warp like the legion of the damned. Yeah lets keep beating this dead pup over and over destroying this idea that only those cursed can use it.
Its just so childish, so over the top that I hate it beyond a belief. That space wolf lore thats passable. But a single grey knight, one that is basically trying to be the Imperium equalivent of Abaddon, is a complete let down and an embrassment to lore.
Heres what I would of done:
1. Made him more reasonable.
2. Due to an unknown demon cursing him to live his life in the warp. Draigo has learned to survive in the warp taking the paths left by daemons and using it to get back to the mortal coil. But once the demons are defeated in the mortal coil he is dragged back into the warp. This has left him scarred and beaten. Nothing is left in this man, just Righteousness and Perseverance. For he is a Hero Among the Grey Knights. And a legend.
3. Make him more grown up. Him staying in the warp proves nothing if we have no details on what he is like a character. He can't just be a badass where nothing degrades him. Living in a place of chaos would hamper your abilities, no matter how strong you are psychologically. Super Human OR NOT!
4. Make him understandable. The Main Reason we all freaking like people Uriel, Loken, and Any of the thousand sons, Is manly because. They are human. They had human qualities. Being human is not a weakness, its a strength and those author's understood that.
Anyway. My reasoning is that Matt Ward, Stop writing childishly. Write like a grown up. Not like the propaganda artists of the 40s.
Asherian Command wrote: I think the worst bit of fluff was draigo fighting and defeating a primarch. BY HIMSELF.
I got a hundred grey knights killing a primarch, but that was an entire company. An entire company not only that but they all melded their essence into basically a ticking time bomb and when they battle was over the demon banished, the man died for reasons of exploding.
That single piece of fluff pissed me off like no other.
I understood the sisters of battle bit, bathe your self in innocence to protect yourself from evil, because at least that was thought through. With that its just an up scale.
OH look here It took this guy a hundred men to kill a demon by working together. Nah. This guy. Pish THIS GUY. THIS GUY beat a primarch. BY HIMSELF! Why? Because! And he teleports through the warp like the legion of the damned. Yeah lets keep beating this dead pup over and over destroying this idea that only those cursed can use it.
Its just so childish, so over the top that I hate it beyond a belief. That space wolf lore thats passable. But a single grey knight, one that is basically trying to be the Imperium equalivent of Abaddon, is a complete let down and an embrassment to lore.
Heres what I would of done:
1. Made him more reasonable. 2. Due to an unknown demon cursing him to live his life in the warp. Draigo has learned to survive in the warp taking the paths left by daemons and using it to get back to the mortal coil. But once the demons are defeated in the mortal coil he is dragged back into the warp. This has left him scarred and beaten. Nothing is left in this man, just Righteousness and Perseverance. For he is a Hero Among the Grey Knights. And a legend. 3. Make him more grown up. Him staying in the warp proves nothing if we have no details on what he is like a character. He can't just be a badass where nothing degrades him. Living in a place of chaos would hamper your abilities, no matter how strong you are psychologically. Super Human OR NOT! 4. Make him understandable. The Main Reason we all freaking like people Uriel, Loken, and Any of the thousand sons, Is manly because. They are human. They had human qualities. Being human is not a weakness, its a strength and those author's understood that.
Anyway. My reasoning is that Matt Ward, Stop writing childishly. Write like a grown up. Not like the propaganda artists of the 40s.
I take it you haven't heard of Mortarion's Heart?
I've read it :/
It still sounded so childish that I hated it completely...
Asherian Command wrote: I think the worst bit of fluff was draigo fighting and defeating a primarch. BY HIMSELF.
I got a hundred grey knights killing a primarch, but that was an entire company. An entire company not only that but they all melded their essence into basically a ticking time bomb and when they battle was over the demon banished, the man died for reasons of exploding.
That single piece of fluff pissed me off like no other.
I understood the sisters of battle bit, bathe your self in innocence to protect yourself from evil, because at least that was thought through. With that its just an up scale.
OH look here It took this guy a hundred men to kill a demon by working together. Nah. This guy. Pish THIS GUY. THIS GUY beat a primarch. BY HIMSELF! Why? Because! And he teleports through the warp like the legion of the damned. Yeah lets keep beating this dead pup over and over destroying this idea that only those cursed can use it.
Its just so childish, so over the top that I hate it beyond a belief. That space wolf lore thats passable. But a single grey knight, one that is basically trying to be the Imperium equalivent of Abaddon, is a complete let down and an embrassment to lore.
Heres what I would of done:
1. Made him more reasonable.
2. Due to an unknown demon cursing him to live his life in the warp. Draigo has learned to survive in the warp taking the paths left by daemons and using it to get back to the mortal coil. But once the demons are defeated in the mortal coil he is dragged back into the warp. This has left him scarred and beaten. Nothing is left in this man, just Righteousness and Perseverance. For he is a Hero Among the Grey Knights. And a legend.
3. Make him more grown up. Him staying in the warp proves nothing if we have no details on what he is like a character. He can't just be a badass where nothing degrades him. Living in a place of chaos would hamper your abilities, no matter how strong you are psychologically. Super Human OR NOT!
4. Make him understandable. The Main Reason we all freaking like people Uriel, Loken, and Any of the thousand sons, Is manly because. They are human. They had human qualities. Being human is not a weakness, its a strength and those author's understood that.
Anyway. My reasoning is that Matt Ward, Stop writing childishly. Write like a grown up. Not like the propaganda artists of the 40s.
I take it you haven't heard of Mortarion's Heart?
I've read it :/
It still sounded so childish that I hated it completely...
Still, Draigo winning by fighting dirty and effectively kicking Morty in the balls and ripping out his daemon name, while Morty kicks the gak out of him and nearly kills him, is a whole lot better than the Ward fluff.
Asherian Command wrote: I think the worst bit of fluff was draigo fighting and defeating a primarch. BY HIMSELF.
I got a hundred grey knights killing a primarch, but that was an entire company. An entire company not only that but they all melded their essence into basically a ticking time bomb and when they battle was over the demon banished, the man died for reasons of exploding.
That single piece of fluff pissed me off like no other.
I understood the sisters of battle bit, bathe your self in innocence to protect yourself from evil, because at least that was thought through. With that its just an up scale.
OH look here It took this guy a hundred men to kill a demon by working together. Nah. This guy. Pish THIS GUY. THIS GUY beat a primarch. BY HIMSELF! Why? Because! And he teleports through the warp like the legion of the damned. Yeah lets keep beating this dead pup over and over destroying this idea that only those cursed can use it.
Its just so childish, so over the top that I hate it beyond a belief. That space wolf lore thats passable. But a single grey knight, one that is basically trying to be the Imperium equalivent of Abaddon, is a complete let down and an embrassment to lore.
Heres what I would of done:
1. Made him more reasonable.
2. Due to an unknown demon cursing him to live his life in the warp. Draigo has learned to survive in the warp taking the paths left by daemons and using it to get back to the mortal coil. But once the demons are defeated in the mortal coil he is dragged back into the warp. This has left him scarred and beaten. Nothing is left in this man, just Righteousness and Perseverance. For he is a Hero Among the Grey Knights. And a legend.
3. Make him more grown up. Him staying in the warp proves nothing if we have no details on what he is like a character. He can't just be a badass where nothing degrades him. Living in a place of chaos would hamper your abilities, no matter how strong you are psychologically. Super Human OR NOT!
4. Make him understandable. The Main Reason we all freaking like people Uriel, Loken, and Any of the thousand sons, Is manly because. They are human. They had human qualities. Being human is not a weakness, its a strength and those author's understood that.
Anyway. My reasoning is that Matt Ward, Stop writing childishly. Write like a grown up. Not like the propaganda artists of the 40s.
I take it you haven't heard of Mortarion's Heart?
I've read it :/
It still sounded so childish that I hated it completely...
Still, Draigo winning by fighting dirty and effectively kicking Morty in the balls and ripping out his daemon name, while Morty kicks the gak out of him and nearly kills him, is a whole lot better than the Ward fluff.
You aren't getting it. Ahem...
In the battle of armaggedon. It took a company. A company of Grey Knights. To banish the last primarch daemon.
And then lets get this straight. A single grey knight, took out mortartion the prince of decay? Effectively the right hand of Nurgle (Or right tentacle)? By himself?
These guys need to stop watching Predator that is all that I am saying. You're hero can kill dragons, but they can't kill demi-gods using your bloody witts. Its not even a proper build up.
Melissia wrote: Either the GK/SoB incident, or the entirety of the lore behind the Sons of Malice.
Oh god I hate the idea of Malal, and the later incarnation of the same idea, Malice. It's a Chaos people who want to be so edgy and hipster they're more chaotic than chaos.
#2edgy4chaos
Ugh, yeah that sucks. Just read it. Seems like preteen fantasy.
Also another bad one, was it Wazdakka that rammed a warbike into a warlord titan and killed it? That was pretty stupid too.
Damn I never saw Malice get so much hate, I like the Malice fluff as a weaker 5th Chaos power it's cool to have other minor gods running about.
The worst I've read was a book about a Fallen Angel it was like from ten years ago so I might remember it wrong but basically it was about a random fallen who falls out of his ship during the heresy and floats around until he gets sucked into the wrap or something and ends up in 40k there's also Alpha Legion guys and eventually the "hero" turns himself in and gets tortured to death by an Interrogator Chaplain despite saving the Dark Angels and stopping a chaos invasion, it was slowed beyond reason.
Perturabo's Plague in the current CSM codex.
I mean, Perturabo is the Lord of Iron, he wasn't a Psyker when he was alive, and he didn't have anything to do with Nurgle.
And somehow, he magically invokes the power of Nurgle to create Daemon Engines.
It just makes you want to go 'Say again?' .
for me it is the sudden rapid rate at which orks grow. I get the spore thing, let them be hard to eradicate, but them growing overnight is asinine and not necessary for the fluff to work.
Oddnerd wrote: for me it is the sudden rapid rate at which orks grow. I get the spore thing, let them be hard to eradicate, but them growing overnight is asinine and not necessary for the fluff to work.
I'm not aware of this one. Where did this show up?
Most of the fluff on Orks of which I am aware, the spores take a LONG time to produce new Yoofs. So long, in fact, that the Imperium doesn't even have a concrete understanding of it ("I thought we killed all of them years ago?"). The stuff I have read, the spores settle and sprout, but the 'nodules' take a long time to develop into orks. Admittedly, the ork scrambles out almost fully grown with all of his 'inborn skillz", but from spore to ork is quite a while.
Also another bad one, was it Wazdakka that rammed a warbike into a warlord titan and killed it? That was pretty stupid too.
Pretty sure it was just a Warhound and he killed it with explosives and WHAAAGH energy.
Oh, come on! That was awesome!
He didn't ram the Titan. He drove his warbike off a cliff and crashed through the void shields (setting himself and his bike on fire) and smashed into the cockpit, killing the crew with his power klaw. I admit, it's ridiculous, but it's so orky!
He couldn't beat up the titan by chipping hull points off its feet (like you might actually do in a game), so he had to find a way to get to the crew. He nearly dies doing it, and nearly destroys his bike as well, but functionally, he claws his way into a crew compartment and kills the humies inside. I particularly like the fact that he didn't just ease his way through the void shields, but that they set him on fire!
But, if anyone remembers the Inquisition War with Ordo Hydra... A super secret Ordo above Malleus that... does the same thing as Malleus but also uses a warp-fed daemon that is essentially Tzeentch boogers to devour worlds. A Callidus Assassin that becomes a Genestealer, a Rogue Inquisitor and former Space Marine dropping into the Golden Throne for a chat with the split-personality Emperor... Oh that book was an awful bit of non-canonical garbage.
Don't forget the Assassin Temple Master who is a knife-covered ninja dreadnought!
So you people would prefer tyranid robots instead of a fairly unique and emotionally moot race that is run a caste system that takes multiple takes from ancient Egyptian society.
Eg.
Warrior-servant/slave
Deathmark/immortal-soldier
Lord/cryptek-noble
Overlord-pheroh
Destroyer- cannibals.
It ruins the entire grimdark atmosphere; only demons should be truly immortal and even they have to regenerate for countless years in the warp after being defeated, before they can be summoned again.
I hate everything about Perpetuals. I used to love the Salamanders, but since they've said Vulkan is a perpetual I've gone right off them.
Oh good Isha, I forgot about that crap. I really don't get the hate for the necron fluff update, it turned the faction from being a one-dimensional group to one with potential for actual characters while still allowing those who want the old style to keep it. IDK just feels like a mix of ward hate and refusing to accept any change whenever I hear someone complain about the necron update especially when using the term Newcrons.
"Hey don't worry guys, there's a single line in the new codex that says somewhere there are Necrons like the ones in the last codex."
Yeah, I can't say I understand why people don't like that Necron leadership can now have some personality instead of just kill kill kill. I think 40k has enough of that already.
Something I don't like about it is that now Necrons are reliant on the Webway because Matt Ward couldn't come up with another method of travel for the Necrons. Dolmen gates are ridiculous, and that Necron ships are super slow now? You are telling me that a race that can create stable wormholes(monolith portals, invasion beams etc.) can't move a ship faster than the speed of light?
There's a difference between disliking the codex as a whole and disliking literally every detail inside of it.
Something I don't like about it is that now Necrons are reliant on the Webway because Matt Ward couldn't come up with another method of travel for the Necrons. Dolmen gates are ridiculous, and that Necron ships are super slow now? You are telling me that a race that can create stable wormholes(monolith portals, invasion beams etc.) can't move a ship faster than the speed of light?
ITT: TruCron players teaching NewCrons about their fluff :/
The rest of the surviving Necron ships and the wounded Dead Hand simply vanished without trace from the auguries [...] one second they registered, and the next they were gone.
Source: Fall of Orpheus, p. 58
Sounds mighty fast to me.
To be fair, that excerpt isn't from the 5e codex, and seems to be there to directly refute what it said.
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YFNPsycho wrote: Perturabo's Plague in the current CSM codex.
I mean, Perturabo is the Lord of Iron, he wasn't a Psyker when he was alive, and he didn't have anything to do with Nurgle.
And somehow, he magically invokes the power of Nurgle to create Daemon Engines.
It just makes you want to go 'Say again?' .
He's a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided. He can invoke any of the gods for sorcery. It is well within his power.
Oddnerd wrote: for me it is the sudden rapid rate at which orks grow. I get the spore thing, let them be hard to eradicate, but them growing overnight is asinine and not necessary for the fluff to work.
I'm not aware of this one. Where did this show up?
Most of the fluff on Orks of which I am aware, the spores take a LONG time to produce new Yoofs. So long, in fact, that the Imperium doesn't even have a concrete understanding of it ("I thought we killed all of them years ago?"). The stuff I have read, the spores settle and sprout, but the 'nodules' take a long time to develop into orks. Admittedly, the ork scrambles out almost fully grown with all of his 'inborn skillz", but from spore to ork is quite a while.
I can't remember where I got it from, but orks are supposed to take around ten years to grow to adulthood (human height). And then spend the rest of their lives trying to be bigger, greener and meaner.
The Unremembered Empire, where four primarchs are presented in the most uninteresting way imaginable, that stupid little rant I went off on was after reading it. Vulkan lives and my mind died.
This pretty much. The fluff for them is almost universally awful. They try to be too many things at once, many of them contradictory, and all turned up to 11. Firing artillery by smell. Wolf Guard wielding Wolf Claws with their Wolf Tooth Necklace while riding gigantic Wolves. The whole "our Rune Priests totes aren't psykers, they use the native power of Fenris" schtick. The idea that they're highly analytical cunning super soldiers who use the imagery of wild berzerkers to fool their foes while...simultaneously still being wild berzerkers who do stupid **** like crash thunderhawks for kicks and giggles. The conflicting nature of their supposedly dark and brooding mission of being the "Emperor's Executioners" but also being total party bro's looking for for the little guy, etc.
Basically anything ultramarine. I'm not anti poster boys, but they're abilities (and resources) seem far in excess of other chapters.
Though any space marine fluff is full if losses of marines, with no real accounting of the time it takes to replace them. Regardless of technology and training it still takes time
Sidstyler wrote: What are perpetuals? Is that some new crap from 7th or something introduced via Black Library?
They're essentially immortals introduced in the Horus Heresy series, when they die they just come back shortly after regardless of how they die, there was a scene in Betrayer where one got burned to a cinder only to be stood behind his killer, perfectly fine moments later. The primarch Vulkan and Olanius Pius are perpetuals
I loathe every word of perpetual fluff, I hate that in a series where we know for the most part from the start who will live and die they have to make even more of the cast unkillable.
It's so hard to get excited in an epic battle scene where you know that none of the key players will die or will just come back.
Oddnerd wrote: for me it is the sudden rapid rate at which orks grow. I get the spore thing, let them be hard to eradicate, but them growing overnight is asinine and not necessary for the fluff to work.
I'm not aware of this one. Where did this show up?
Most of the fluff on Orks of which I am aware, the spores take a LONG time to produce new Yoofs. So long, in fact, that the Imperium doesn't even have a concrete understanding of it ("I thought we killed all of them years ago?"). The stuff I have read, the spores settle and sprout, but the 'nodules' take a long time to develop into orks. Admittedly, the ork scrambles out almost fully grown with all of his 'inborn skillz", but from spore to ork is quite a while.
I can't remember where I got it from, but orks are supposed to take around ten years to grow to adulthood (human height). And then spend the rest of their lives trying to be bigger, greener and meaner.
It's in the new book, and frankly it bothers me to.
It says that a random group of Green Skins left alone can turn into a gigantic horde in (and I quote) a matter of weeks.
Ork shift crashes and a few Orks escape into the under-hive? You'll have enough Orks coming out of the bowels of the city, in a few weeks, to over-run the defenders and subsequently the planet.
10 years to reach Ork maturity is frankly a super fast rate for the size of Orks, and made sense. This new fluff about Orks shoring the numbers up from hundreds to hundreds of thousands in the span of maybe a month? That's nuts.
farmersboy wrote: Anything where there is talk of Space Marines rolling around or slinging a sword across their backs, the author clearly forgetting there's a chuffing great power generator on the marines back.
With slinging swords over your back there is also the issue that it may look cool but is extremely impractical as you would never be able to draw your sword unless you had really, really long arms. I just can't believe how many videogames, movies and artworks get this basic fact of physics wrong. You can't draw a sword from your back, ever. Swords were never worn on the back in real history.
Now with this pet peeve out of the way, I must say that despite all the horrible and silly 40k fluff out there, C.S. Goto's work still is the absolute epitome of nonsense.
I really dislike the Horus Heresy novel series as a whole.
More specifically Perpetuals, the Primarchs and the whole messing around in Ultramar thing they're doing.
Melissia wrote: Either the GK/SoB incident, or the entirety of the lore behind the Sons of Malice.
Oh god I hate the idea of Malal, and the later incarnation of the same idea, Malice. It's a Chaos God for people who want to be so edgy and hipster they're more chaotic than chaos.
#2edgy4chaos
Though even ignoring the Malal nonsense, it's a disgusting power fantasy with misogynistic undertones-- it's worse, in my opinion, than the Grey Knight fluff in how it treats Sisters of Battle (also Inquisitors), and is little more than some gakky writer making a God Mode Villain Sue, to use TVTropes language.
Also I'm okay with some of the HH books-- A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns come to mind. Most of them do suck though, and I preferred it when they were just myths and legends instead of poorly written realities.
Not really a single piece of fluff, but you'll have to let me off because I've been harboring this hatred for too long.
Khorne.
Older Khorne was so much cooler than new khorne. He was all about martial prowess, being the best you can be, not letting yourself be weak, even being honorable and not killing those who are unarmed or weak. Nowadays he's all 'HURR DURR BLUD N SKULS', and it kind of ruins chaos for me sometimes. It makes me think why would anyone actually turn to khorne, because you're just going to turn into a blood-crazed madman who kill themselves when there is no more blood to be spilt. Very silly.
Vulkan lives nearly made me quit the hobby. Shoot him into the sun there he is gone, then the followup where he is insane then this guy has a magic ball in his pants he can use to fix him. Good thing both 1 in a galaxy items are on a planet together. VULKAN DIED!!! He is a rotten corpse that moves thats all. Thank typhus your rotten primarch lives.
Toastaster wrote: Not really a single piece of fluff, but you'll have to let me off because I've been harboring this hatred for too long.
Khorne.
Older Khorne was so much cooler than new khorne. He was all about martial prowess, being the best you can be, not letting yourself be weak, even being honorable and not killing those who are unarmed or weak. Nowadays he's all 'HURR DURR BLUD N SKULS', and it kind of ruins chaos for me sometimes. It makes me think why would anyone actually turn to khorne, because you're just going to turn into a blood-crazed madman who kill themselves when there is no more blood to be spilt. Very silly.
Khorne was always about senseless slaughter....
The idea that Khorne was once about honorable combat and held disdain for slaughtering the hapless weak is myth. I've never seen any material in the old fluff that stated that Khorne didn't like butchering the weak or unarmed, quite the opposite in fact.
Toastaster wrote: Not really a single piece of fluff, but you'll have to let me off because I've been harboring this hatred for too long.
Khorne.
Older Khorne was so much cooler than new khorne. He was all about martial prowess, being the best you can be, not letting yourself be weak, even being honorable and not killing those who are unarmed or weak. Nowadays he's all 'HURR DURR BLUD N SKULS', and it kind of ruins chaos for me sometimes. It makes me think why would anyone actually turn to khorne, because you're just going to turn into a blood-crazed madman who kill themselves when there is no more blood to be spilt. Very silly.
Khorne was always about senseless slaughter....
The idea that Khorne was once about honorable combat and held disdain for slaughtering the hapless weak is myth. I've never seen any material in the old fluff that stated that Khorne didn't like butchering the weak or unarmed, quite the opposite in fact.
I've been around since RT and played chaos back then. I always remember Khorne as being senseless blood letting. "He cares not from whence the blood flows" kinda thing. Like Khorne fist bumping Kharn for killing his own men because, hey, it's killing and killing is good.
Toastaster wrote: Not really a single piece of fluff, but you'll have to let me off because I've been harboring this hatred for too long.
Khorne.
Older Khorne was so much cooler than new khorne. He was all about martial prowess, being the best you can be, not letting yourself be weak, even being honorable and not killing those who are unarmed or weak. Nowadays he's all 'HURR DURR BLUD N SKULS', and it kind of ruins chaos for me sometimes. It makes me think why would anyone actually turn to khorne, because you're just going to turn into a blood-crazed madman who kill themselves when there is no more blood to be spilt. Very silly.
Khorne was always about senseless slaughter....
The idea that Khorne was once about honorable combat and held disdain for slaughtering the hapless weak is myth. I've never seen any material in the old fluff that stated that Khorne didn't like butchering the weak or unarmed, quite the opposite in fact.
My old Epic 40K rulebook disagrees. It states Khorne is a martial god who dislikes those who kill the helpless, and the Flesh Hounds of Khorne were originally created to hunt down the followers of Khorne who deliberately killed non-combatants.
Then 2nd Edition 40K happened, and all that changed.
Toastaster wrote: Not really a single piece of fluff, but you'll have to let me off because I've been harboring this hatred for too long.
Khorne.
Older Khorne was so much cooler than new khorne. He was all about martial prowess, being the best you can be, not letting yourself be weak, even being honorable and not killing those who are unarmed or weak. Nowadays he's all 'HURR DURR BLUD N SKULS', and it kind of ruins chaos for me sometimes. It makes me think why would anyone actually turn to khorne, because you're just going to turn into a blood-crazed madman who kill themselves when there is no more blood to be spilt. Very silly.
Khorne was always about senseless slaughter....
The idea that Khorne was once about honorable combat and held disdain for slaughtering the hapless weak is myth. I've never seen any material in the old fluff that stated that Khorne didn't like butchering the weak or unarmed, quite the opposite in fact.
My old Epic 40K rulebook disagrees. It states Khorne is a martial god who dislikes those who kill the helpless, and the Flesh Hounds of Khorne were originally created to hunt down the followers of Khorne who deliberately killed non-combatants.
Then 2nd Edition 40K happened, and all that changed.
Then it's simply a discrepancy between Epic and the RT Rulebook.
With slinging swords over your back there is also the issue that it may look cool but is extremely impractical as you would never be able to draw your sword unless you had really, really long arms. I just can't believe how many videogames, movies and artworks get this basic fact of physics wrong. You can't draw a sword from your back, ever. Swords were never worn on the back in real history.
Uh, actually, Arnold draws a sword from over his shoulder in the original Conan movie. It's quite possible, from the standpoint of physics.
You don't attach the bottom end of the scabbard to your belt, it hangs freely, so when you draw the sword, it's a straight pull from your shoulder.
Of course, in 40K, you could just magnetize the thing to your armor and pull it off with a good tug, but let's not let practicality get in the way of our claims of impossible actions. Yes, there's a fusion reactor on your back. It's also generally square. Slap your sword on the flat side with a magnet, then pull it off when you need it.
With slinging swords over your back there is also the issue that it may look cool but is extremely impractical as you would never be able to draw your sword unless you had really, really long arms. I just can't believe how many videogames, movies and artworks get this basic fact of physics wrong. You can't draw a sword from your back, ever. Swords were never worn on the back in real history.
Uh, actually, Arnold draws a sword from over his shoulder in the original Conan movie. It's quite possible, from the standpoint of physics.
You don't attach the bottom end of the scabbard to your belt, it hangs freely, so when you draw the sword, it's a straight pull from your shoulder.
Of course, in 40K, you could just magnetize the thing to your armor and pull it off with a good tug, but let's not let practicality get in the way of our claims of impossible actions. Yes, there's a fusion reactor on your back. It's also generally square. Slap your sword on the flat side with a magnet, then pull it off when you need it.
Psienesis wrote: The Space Wolves started out good, and then the people who write SW fiction ruined them. They became stupid a long, long time ago.
SW, in fact, are probably one of the root causes for the backlash SM fans get, because the fiction around the SW is so god-awful.
My hate comes from the Ultra-spehss, GK, and mattard.
It didn't used to be that way :/
They had decency. They were just vikings in space. Not just werewolves.
In fact all the chapters are like that now. They put too much emphasis on their outer traits, like as if it is like a 8 year olds perspective. If I showed someone a blood angel they would notice the pale skin and teeth and say, "thats a vampire." If I showed them a space wolf. "Thats a Werewolf." etc.
They put too much emphasis on certain things and left behind what made them interesting. Now its just fantasy in space!
I think that all the things happening in the lore is just bad writers. As it has slowly started to edge itself towards from subpar to terrible.
I'm actually going to go for the depiction of SoBs in the Ciaphas Cain novels. Specifically, that one Sister who drinks and gambles.
Whilst the Bloodtide is pretty awful in terms of how it depicts the Sisters, it at least has the hidden silver lining of basically saying that some Sisters can resist powerful Daemonic corruption on their own, whilst the GK need blood magic to do the same. And most people seem to agree that it's flawed anyway, so it hasn't really damaged perceptions too badly.
What gets me about the Cain Sister is that she flies in the face if the ordered, ultra-disciplined soldiers who are presented as the Imperium's most zealous force that we see depicted in the codex. And then, because the Cain books are very popular and the SoB codex fluff is lesser-known, people read it and think that that's what the SoB are actually like, it really undersells how very indoctrinated they all are.
Admittedly, it's probably not the worst piece of fluff out there, but it's the one that annoys me the most.
Troike wrote: I'm actually going to go for the depiction of SoBs in the Ciaphas Cain novels. Specifically, that one Sister who drinks and gambles.
Whilst the Bloodtide is pretty awful in terms of how it depicts the Sisters, it at least has the hidden silver lining of basically saying that some Sisters can resist power Daemonic corruption on their own, whilst the GK need blood magic to do the same. And most people seem to agree that it's flawed anyway, so it hasn't really damaged perceptions too badly.
What gets me about the Cain Sister is that she flies in the face if the ordered, ultra-disciplined soldiers who are presented as the Imperium's most zealous force that we see depicted in the codex. And then, because the Cain books are very popular and the SoB codex fluff is lesser-known, people read it and think that that's what the SoB are actually like, it really undersells how very indoctrinated they all are.
Admittedly, it's probably not the worst piece of fluff out there, but it's the one that annoys me the most.
Agreed fully. More misunderstandings have come from the Cain novels than anywhere else. (That I've heard.)
SOB are supposed to be so fanatically self denying and boarderline insane that they get acts of faith. That doesn't come from lack of self denial and drinking and gambling.
The as for mentioned fluff of Draigo, that is stupid and not needed.
Some of the newcron fluff. I don't really mind the way you can have your own leader and what not, What I don't like is that they don't feel like the masters of the material realm. They just feel a little dimmed down from the old codex. I don't hate the newcrons, just not as excited about them as I used to.
With slinging swords over your back there is also the issue that it may look cool but is extremely impractical as you would never be able to draw your sword unless you had really, really long arms. I just can't believe how many videogames, movies and artworks get this basic fact of physics wrong. You can't draw a sword from your back, ever. Swords were never worn on the back in real history.
Well, it's certainly possible, just very impractical due to the draw being slower and leaving you wide open.
Eh, there's the Hive Tyrant (make's sense, it's the leader of the Hive), Hive Guard (again, makes sense, defends Hive structures), the Hive Commander rule (makes sense in its context) and the Hive Crone (the only one that's kinda oddly named).
They didn't go about doing stuff like renaming Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons just to add "blood" in or whatnot.
The Hive Fleet and Hive Mind too. But yes, they do not reach the levels of the Blood Angels and Space Wolves. You can have a Space Wolf Wolf Lord with Jaws of the world Wolf riding a Thunderwolf joined by a group of Thunderwolf Calvary, helped out by Canis Wolfborn, commanding Thunderwolf Calvary, Fenrisian Wolf packs, Wolf Guard, Lone Wolves and some Cyber Wolves.
Troike wrote: I'm actually going to go for the depiction of SoBs in the Ciaphas Cain novels. Specifically, that one Sister who drinks and gambles.
Whilst the Bloodtide is pretty awful in terms of how it depicts the Sisters, it at least has the hidden silver lining of basically saying that some Sisters can resist powerful Daemonic corruption on their own, whilst the GK need blood magic to do the same. And most people seem to agree that it's flawed anyway, so it hasn't really damaged perceptions too badly.
What gets me about the Cain Sister is that she flies in the face if the ordered, ultra-disciplined soldiers who are presented as the Imperium's most zealous force that we see depicted in the codex. And then, because the Cain books are very popular and the SoB codex fluff is lesser-known, people read it and think that that's what the SoB are actually like, it really undersells how very indoctrinated they all are.
Admittedly, it's probably not the worst piece of fluff out there, but it's the one that annoys me the most.
I must admit after reading James Swallow works on SoB the last thing I thought they would do would be gambling and drinking (or doing anything fun related). Seeing one play cards to past time during their free time (They still need a bit of free time) would be ok. But, she would play a boring game like a religious version of solitary were you must match saints with their epic deads or something like that. In Hammer and Andvil, you learn that they only use «sanctioned» curse words when they are angry. Then again a single Sister with gambling and drinking habit is not so stupid, you just know that she's got nice little place on repentia squad. Cain himself is a jerk, a coward and selfish man who happens to be commissar. If a commissar can be so low, perhapse a sister can too (yet I do think that a Sister would be much, much less prone than a commissar to such issues.)
epronovost wrote: I must admit after reading James Swallow works on SoB the last thing I thought they would do would be gambling and drinking (or doing anything fun related).
Yeah, Swallow was a pretty good reflection of studio SoB. Though, in my opinion, the codex Sisters are presented as even more indoctrinated.
epronovost wrote: Cain himself is a jerk, a coward and selfish man who happens to be commissar. If a commissar can be so low, perhapse a sister can too (yet I do think that a Sister would be much, much less prone than a commissar to such issues.)
Eh... The thing with Cain is that it's very doubtful that he could develop that mindset in the first place, were he in studio fluff. In codexes, the Scholas are extremely heavy on the brainwashing. In comparison, Sandy Mitchell has Scholas that are more easygoing. And the thing with the Sisters is that they are chosen from Schola pupils who have particularly bought into the brainwashing.
In regards to the Cain & Sister of Battle issue. I think it's important to keep in perspective that there are literally thousands of worlds, trillions upon trillions of humans.
Even if that sister represents one in 100,000 who managed to accept the indoctrination in a more relaxed manner. Keeping in mind they are on the fringe of the galaxy and she is essentially retired. Then that's not beyond the bounds of unreasonable.
Personally I enjoy the Cain books, as they often portray a very human aspect of the 40k scene. Grimdark for the sake of it gets old pretty quick.
What I will say though, is the entire setting desperately needs a central point of reference. An internal room that is filled with pinboard & documents stating how each race, setting, faction and individual is to be portrayed. It already occurs in multiple video game companies, I don't understand why it's so hard to accomplish for a multi-million dollar table top company.
Vrashnar wrote: In regards to the Cain & Sister of Battle issue. I think it's important to keep in perspective that there are literally thousands of worlds, trillions upon trillions of humans.
But the thing with the Sisters is that they've had memories of their past lives erased, been put through a heinous amont of brainwashing, been specifically selected on the basis that they took to this brainwashing notably well compared to their fellow Schola students, and then gone off to train and live with others who have been similarly brainwashed. And this is what makes the Sisters special, what gives them their edge in 40K. That they believe in their faith so hard.
For a Sister to just "losen up on" this extremely rigorous mindset and lifestyle, to start drinking and having casual affairs doesn't really fit. Did... She just decided let go of a lifetime of indoctrination?
There's also the additional issue that a Sister wouldn't even be at the Schola to begin with. Sisters don't train Novices at Scholas, Schola students leave to train with the SoB directly if they are selected to be Novices.
Vrashnar wrote: In regards to the Cain & Sister of Battle issue. I think it's important to keep in perspective that there are literally thousands of worlds, trillions upon trillions of humans.
But the thing with the Sisters is that they've had memories of their past lives erased, been put through a heinous amont of brainwashing, been specifically selected on the basis that they took to this brainwashing notably well compared to their fellow Schola students, and then gone off to train and live with others who have been similarly brainwashed. And this is what makes the Sisters special, what gives them their edge in 40K. That they believe in their faith so hard.
For a Sister to just "losen up on" this extremely rigorous mindset and lifestyle, to start drinking and having casual affairs doesn't really fit. Did... She just decided let go of a lifetime of indoctrination?
There's also the additional issue that a Sister wouldn't even be at the Schola to begin with. Sisters don't train Novices at Scholas, Schola students leave to train with the SoB directly if they are selected to be Novices.
To put this into an analogy, It'd be like changing a Bloodletters personality to that of a Daemonette.
Everything is up to interpretation, nothing is true or false, propaganda, myths legends and half-truths canon is a fallacyasjsjhfi8gesr9geprjfscsdkcvsdhsdzfsdgsdjfsufhzsifsiodfsdifsjd
Everything is up to interpretation, nothing is true or false, propaganda, myths legends and half-truths canon is a fallacyasjsjhfi8gesr9geprjfscsdkcvsdhsdzfsdgsdjfsufhzsifsiodfsdifsjd
There is a baby stuck in a well who is fighting balrogs?
Sure. Take the Mitchell Sister if you want. My issue is that she doesnt fit nearly as well with the "hyped-up relgious zealot" theme as the codex Sisters do, and that's what the Sisters are meant to be all about. Also, again, that one Cain Sister has kind of stifled the codex lore, since now some people just assume that she's a decent representaiton of all SoB fluff rather than looking into wider SoB fluff. And, really, it's fair bet that Mitchell wanted her there more as a joke than anything, yet she can be taken quite seriously by some fans.
Nooooo, no no. How the Sisters function as an organization is a matter of interpretation. Some people imagine them as being hyper-zealous warrior-robots, others view them as sorority-girls and others in-bewteen.
Alllllll viewpoints are equally valid and represented in the fluff, it's just a matter of how you choose to view it.
My issues, as I've said, is that I don't see that Cain Sister as fitting with the base themes of the Sisters very well, and that the portrayal has (to some extent) "edged out" the codex fluff.
Edit: also, I don't think that it goes so far as to "equally support" all viewpoints, at least not to the extent of "sorority girls". As far as I'm aware, all sources have the Sisters overall, as massive zealots. That's never really thrown away completely, even the Cain Sister was noted to be something of an exception.
Vrashnar wrote: In regards to the Cain & Sister of Battle issue. I think it's important to keep in perspective that there are literally thousands of worlds, trillions upon trillions of humans.
But the thing with the Sisters is that they've had memories of their past lives erased, been put through a heinous amont of brainwashing, been specifically selected on the basis that they took to this brainwashing notably well compared to their fellow Schola students, and then gone off to train and live with others who have been similarly brainwashed. And this is what makes the Sisters special, what gives them their edge in 40K. That they believe in their faith so hard.
For a Sister to just "losen up on" this extremely rigorous mindset and lifestyle, to start drinking and having casual affairs doesn't really fit. Did... She just decided let go of a lifetime of indoctrination?
There's also the additional issue that a Sister wouldn't even be at the Schola to begin with. Sisters don't train Novices at Scholas, Schola students leave to train with the SoB directly if they are selected to be Novices.
Not to be the one who draws real history into a discussion of fluff...but history is replete with examples of indoctrinated, pious, and/or highly disciplined soldiers engaging in far more reprehensible behavior than drinking and gambling. Usually it's rape, theft, murder, or senseless brutality. We are, after all, the species that sent hundreds of men to isolated monasteries to practice the word of The Bible...and they end up producing and consuming large amounts of alcohol, with monasteries becoming known for their beer brews or their wine vineyards.
The extreme discipline, outside of combat, throughout history seems to usually be put in place for the rookies. Young soldiers are held to high moral standards, when it is necessary to instill the extreme culture of discipline, but the grizzled old military contractors grow out their beards, lose the uniforms, and more freely engage in illicit behavior. But they get away with it because they're veterans who can instantly snap into a combat mentality when necessary. I imagine the Sisters of Battle, or any other organization in 40k, might have a similar experience, and it's often built into the fluff where the old hands are calm and cool under pressure, but raucous in their free time (Dwarf Longbeards, IG Veterans, etc.)
Ultramarines being second to the Emprah marines, and Black templars/space wolves striving to be like Calgar and ultramarines, but unable to match them because they told Guilliman where he can stick his smurfbook... Khornate Knights, and C.S. Multilazor cramming the damn things on Land raiders, and Mantis warrior marines. Or Eldar race worshipping Slaneesh, and Dark eldar Psykers living in the Eye of Terror
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Toastaster wrote: Not really a single piece of fluff, but you'll have to let me off because I've been harboring this hatred for too long.
Khorne.
Older Khorne was so much cooler than new khorne. He was all about martial prowess, being the best you can be, not letting yourself be weak, even being honorable and not killing those who are unarmed or weak. Nowadays he's all 'HURR DURR BLUD N SKULS', and it kind of ruins chaos for me sometimes. It makes me think why would anyone actually turn to khorne, because you're just going to turn into a blood-crazed madman who kill themselves when there is no more blood to be spilt. Very silly.
yeah, i hate that too... From grimdark to grimDERP
epronovost wrote: I must admit after reading James Swallow works on SoB the last thing I thought they would do would be gambling and drinking (or doing anything fun related).
Yeah, Swallow was a pretty good reflection of studio SoB. Though, in my opinion, the codex Sisters are presented as even more indoctrinated.
epronovost wrote: Cain himself is a jerk, a coward and selfish man who happens to be commissar. If a commissar can be so low, perhapse a sister can too (yet I do think that a Sister would be much, much less prone than a commissar to such issues.)
Eh... The thing with Cain is that it's very doubtful that he could develop that mindset in the first place, were he in studio fluff. In codexes, the Scholas are extremely heavy on the brainwashing. In comparison, Sandy Mitchell has Scholas that are more easygoing. And the thing with the Sisters is that they are chosen from Schola pupils who have particularly bought into the brainwashing.
Especially having just read Codex Tempestus Scions, yeah, Sandy is full of gak on Scholas being easy-going. Overall the Cain books seem to bear little to no resemblance to W40K, more of a glorified in-joke.
epronovost wrote: I must admit after reading James Swallow works on SoB the last thing I thought they would do would be gambling and drinking (or doing anything fun related).
Yeah, Swallow was a pretty good reflection of studio SoB. Though, in my opinion, the codex Sisters are presented as even more indoctrinated.
epronovost wrote: Cain himself is a jerk, a coward and selfish man who happens to be commissar. If a commissar can be so low, perhapse a sister can too (yet I do think that a Sister would be much, much less prone than a commissar to such issues.)
Eh... The thing with Cain is that it's very doubtful that he could develop that mindset in the first place, were he in studio fluff. In codexes, the Scholas are extremely heavy on the brainwashing. In comparison, Sandy Mitchell has Scholas that are more easygoing. And the thing with the Sisters is that they are chosen from Schola pupils who have particularly bought into the brainwashing.
Especially having just read Codex Tempestus Scions, yeah, Sandy is full of gak on Scholas being easy-going. Overall the Cain books seem to bear little to no resemblance to W40K, more of a glorified in-joke.
To be fair, the Codex Tempestus Scions book is also one of the worst reading codex books out there (I'm a huge IG fan and always wanted a Stormtrooper book, and reading this book felt like reading bad fanfiction, with instructors squashing children's heads with hammers and whatnot), and is, in and of itself, a pretty massive retcon of some long established things (and published 11 years and 4 game editions after the first Cain novel was published), not the least of which is the Scions themselves, who were the *very* different "Stormtroopers" up until that point.
Anytime anyone references a specific number. Weither its planetary population, space craft crew, number of people in a cult, whatever.
40K authors have no clue about real world logistics and what it takes to actually get anything done, resources consumed, or populate and police a planet let alone an entire galaxy at war.
Imperial Guard and Space Marines are the worst offenders when it comes to this. Particularly the Imperial Guard. GW fluff acts like a few dozen regiments is supposed to be a lot. `
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Backflipping terminators and razorback/landraider transformers. Thanks, C. S. Goto.
Don't forget, terminators can be physically overpowered with ease by spore mines, and Space Marines "forget" that they have their weapons and "struggle to remember" their briefings.
Thatguyhsagun wrote: Backflipping terminators and razorback/landraider transformers. Thanks, C. S. Goto.
Don't forget, terminators can be physically overpowered with ease by spore mines, and Space Marines "forget" that they have their weapons and "struggle to remember" their briefings.
The 40k writers claim that armies smaller than the one the US used to invade Iraq are massively epic armies. Heck, the Russians in WWII had the largest army in history and all they could do was occupy eastern Europe. The writers have no sense of their own scale.
And the CSM having a stupid habit of saying thins like:
"I am a Chaos Terminator Aspiring Champion, this is my pet Chaos Dog, and that over there is my best buddy, Chaos Daemon!"
-.-
When is a daemon not a chaos daemon...
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MWHistorian wrote: The 40k writers claim that armies smaller than the one the US used to invade Iraq are massively epic armies. Heck, the Russians in WWII had the largest army in history and all they could do was occupy eastern Europe. The writers have no sense of their own scale.
Damn yes. One moment you have a hundred guardsmen holding down an entire city, the next 25 trillion have died trying to hold a village.
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TheCustomLime wrote: Imperial Guard and Space Marines are the worst offenders when it comes to this. Particularly the Imperial Guard. GW fluff acts like a few dozen regiments is supposed to be a lot. `
Tbf, a regiment in the IG is not like one of our regiments, and tends to consist of hundreds of thousands of men.
I'm a huge Tyranid fan-boy but I don't like how they wrote the Swarmlord.
It's written as a personality and an individual in the swarm. The swarm has no individuals.
Tyranids outsmarting everybody is obvious, everyone else is a lower form of life. However it should occur as a response of the Hive mind (in game terms special rules etc) . Not some Skeletor wannabe pretending he's a Hive Tyrant.
I found that with the introduction of the Swarmlord they anthropomorphized the Tyranids and made them more like human villians. This has dumbed them down and made them more like every baddie out there.
I'm actually fine with the Tyranid naming, since it's largely the result of slang names assigned by the Imperial forces that have encountered them. Even the faction name is a reference to the first world attacked by The Great Devourer.
epronovost wrote: I must admit after reading James Swallow works on SoB the last thing I thought they would do would be gambling and drinking (or doing anything fun related).
Yeah, Swallow was a pretty good reflection of studio SoB. Though, in my opinion, the codex Sisters are presented as even more indoctrinated.
epronovost wrote: Cain himself is a jerk, a coward and selfish man who happens to be commissar. If a commissar can be so low, perhapse a sister can too (yet I do think that a Sister would be much, much less prone than a commissar to such issues.)
Eh... The thing with Cain is that it's very doubtful that he could develop that mindset in the first place, were he in studio fluff. In codexes, the Scholas are extremely heavy on the brainwashing. In comparison, Sandy Mitchell has Scholas that are more easygoing. And the thing with the Sisters is that they are chosen from Schola pupils who have particularly bought into the brainwashing.
Especially having just read Codex Tempestus Scions, yeah, Sandy is full of gak on Scholas being easy-going. Overall the Cain books seem to bear little to no resemblance to W40K, more of a glorified in-joke.
The Cain novels aren't really 40k. Mitchel borrows some vocabulary, but at their core, the novels are pulp sci-fi that's essentially Black Adder in space. Cain recalls the Schola Progenium as if it were just another private school full of ivy-encrusted architecture, football pitches, and the foreboding darkness of the Headmaster's Study.
TheCustomLime wrote: Imperial Guard and Space Marines are the worst offenders when it comes to this. Particularly the Imperial Guard. GW fluff acts like a few dozen regiments is supposed to be a lot. `
Tbf, a regiment in the IG is not like one of our regiments, and tends to consist of hundreds of thousands of men.
They're not usually that huge. Gaunts Ghosts Tanith First and Only starts out at 6,000 and eventually gets run down to less than 2000. The Cadian 8th, home of Creed, is 8,000 strong, most Steel Legion regiments number 2-3 thousand strong plus vehicles/crew (another couple hundred). Most usually are between actual regimental or divisional sized organizations. Relatively few are the (quite ridiculously) huge 100,000 strong formations. Another case of GW numbers being very ridiculous
TheSilo wrote: Not to be the one who draws real history into a discussion of fluff...but history is replete with examples of indoctrinated, pious, and/or highly disciplined soldiers engaging in far more reprehensible behavior than drinking and gambling.
Sure, it happens historically. However, I doubt that any force in our history had the brainwashing locked down quite as tightly as the Sisters did.
Although... Thinking about it, it's not quite right to apply that to the Cain Sister in the first place, since she's gone through Mitchell's apparently less harsh version of the Schola. So I'll just stick to my main complaint of her misrepresenting the Sisters, and not really fitting with the "spirit" of the army. Same goes for Amberley's line about the Sisters being allowed to have sex if they feel like it.
As others have said before, it wouldn't really be a problem if people saw the Cain novels as more a comedic take than a completely serious portrayal.
Vaktathi wrote: To be fair, the Codex Tempestus Scions book is also one of the worst reading codex books out there (I'm a huge IG fan and always wanted a Stormtrooper book, and reading this book felt like reading bad fanfiction, with instructors squashing children's heads with hammers and whatnot), and is, in and of itself
Eh, I liked it. I think it was suitably dark and brutal, the Imperium using the most extreme sort of education to produce its most loyal and elite human soldiers.
Vaktathi wrote: a pretty massive retcon of some long established things
How so? The Stormtroopers aside, it felt fairly in-line with the old studio fluff on the Scholas, to me. We were told that they were tough places, and this stuff just seemed like an expansion to that.
Selym wrote: Damn yes. One moment you have a hundred guardsmen holding down an entire city, the next 25 trillion have died trying to hold a village.
My favourite instance of this is where Chenkov managed to lose ten million Guardsmen in taking one citadel.
Vaktathi wrote: To be fair, the Codex Tempestus Scions book is also one of the worst reading codex books out there (I'm a huge IG fan and always wanted a Stormtrooper book, and reading this book felt like reading bad fanfiction, with instructors squashing children's heads with hammers and whatnot), and is, in and of itself
Eh, I liked it. I think it was suitably dark and brutal, the Imperium using the most extreme sort of education to produce its most loyal and elite human soldiers.
Vaktathi wrote: a pretty massive retcon of some long established things
How so? The Stormtroopers aside, it felt fairly in-line with the old studio fluff on the Scholas, to me. We were told that they were tough places, and this stuff just seemed like an expansion to that.
It really just read...poorly to me. I mean, I love me some Grimdark, but the Scion book just read like violence-porn and took things beyond the level of believability.
I mean, it's one thing to have lots of recruits die or suffer injuries in harsh training. People's bodies shut down, live fire exercises go wrong. someone slips and falls, equipment fails, etc. It's one thing to die in intense training, but when it involves active killings, especially on the part of or orders of instructors, it just stops being believable.
TL;DR It read like Harry Potter torture porn to me.
I'm a huge Tyranid fan-boy but I don't like how they wrote the Swarmlord.
It's written as a personality and an individual in the swarm. The swarm has no individuals.
Tyranids outsmarting everybody is obvious, everyone else is a lower form of life. However it should occur as a response of the Hive mind (in game terms special rules etc) . Not some Skeletor wannabe pretending he's a Hive Tyrant.
I found that with the introduction of the Swarmlord they anthropomorphized the Tyranids and made them more like human villians. This has dumbed them down and made them more like every baddie out there.
I've always seen the Swarmlord as the Manifestation of the Hive Mind itself.
It's the best strategic genius because it has EVERYTHING every single tyranid ever learned in it's head.
Then again,that is pretty much nulified at Ichar IV when Marneus CallGak beats him somehow by outsmartsing ze nidz
I'm a huge Tyranid fan-boy but I don't like how they wrote the Swarmlord.
It's written as a personality and an individual in the swarm. The swarm has no individuals.
Tyranids outsmarting everybody is obvious, everyone else is a lower form of life. However it should occur as a response of the Hive mind (in game terms special rules etc) . Not some Skeletor wannabe pretending he's a Hive Tyrant.
I found that with the introduction of the Swarmlord they anthropomorphized the Tyranids and made them more like human villians. This has dumbed them down and made them more like every baddie out there.
I've always seen the Swarmlord as the Manifestation of the Hive Mind itself.
It's the best strategic genius because it has EVERYTHING every single tyranid ever learned in it's head.
Then again,that is pretty much nulified at Ichar IV when Marneus CallGak beats him somehow by outsmartsing ze nidz
IIRC the Ultramarines outsmarted the Tyranids by challenging the Swarmlord to a duel. Only for the Swarmlord to get jumped by a bunch of Ultramarine heavy support and killed him. Ever since then the Swarmlord hasn't responded to honorable duels or something like it.
I'm a huge Tyranid fan-boy but I don't like how they wrote the Swarmlord.
It's written as a personality and an individual in the swarm. The swarm has no individuals.
Tyranids outsmarting everybody is obvious, everyone else is a lower form of life. However it should occur as a response of the Hive mind (in game terms special rules etc) . Not some Skeletor wannabe pretending he's a Hive Tyrant.
I found that with the introduction of the Swarmlord they anthropomorphized the Tyranids and made them more like human villians. This has dumbed them down and made them more like every baddie out there.
I've always seen the Swarmlord as the Manifestation of the Hive Mind itself.
It's the best strategic genius because it has EVERYTHING every single tyranid ever learned in it's head.
Then again,that is pretty much nulified at Ichar IV when Marneus CallGak beats him somehow by outsmartsing ze nidz
Hive Tyrants have always been incredibly intelligent and "self aware" in a sense. The Swarmlord is just a particularly experienced Hive Tyrant consciousness that can be imprinted on a Hive Tyrant body during maturation.
The Valedor novel actually features the Swarmlord, and when the Eldar Farseer protagonist looks at its "strand of fate" he sees the individual intelligence of the Swarmlord, but also that this individuality is just a clever illusion that we force upon it to understand what we are dealing with; the Swarmlord is just another in a long line of vat-bred Hive Tyrants with a specific intelligence imprinted onto it, just as much a part of the Hive Mind as any other Tyranid. Valedor even sheds doubt on the Swarmlord being truly unique.
All Tyranids are "individuals" in a sense, but they are all chained up inside the synaptic web. The group mind dominates its components. Synapse creatures are the conduits through which that dominion is orchestrated, because they interract with the universe on a smaller scale and can better oversee the swarms. It's all part of one vast structure though.
Vaktathi wrote: To be fair, the Codex Tempestus Scions book is also one of the worst reading codex books out there (I'm a huge IG fan and always wanted a Stormtrooper book, and reading this book felt like reading bad fanfiction, with instructors squashing children's heads with hammers and whatnot), and is, in and of itself
Eh, I liked it. I think it was suitably dark and brutal, the Imperium using the most extreme sort of education to produce its most loyal and elite human soldiers.
Vaktathi wrote: a pretty massive retcon of some long established things
How so? The Stormtroopers aside, it felt fairly in-line with the old studio fluff on the Scholas, to me. We were told that they were tough places, and this stuff just seemed like an expansion to that.
It really just read...poorly to me. I mean, I love me some Grimdark, but the Scion book just read like violence-porn and took things beyond the level of believability.
I mean, it's one thing to have lots of recruits die or suffer injuries in harsh training. People's bodies shut down, live fire exercises go wrong. someone slips and falls, equipment fails, etc. It's one thing to die in intense training, but when it involves active killings, especially on the part of or orders of instructors, it just stops being believable.
TL;DR It read like Harry Potter torture porn to me.
Maybe they wanted to emulate the training scenes from Starship Troopers but even more Grim Dark?
Maybe? Though even in there, the one death was an accident, and the knife incident with the instructor was to show a specific point related to the lesson being taught and then medics were immediately called over, as opposed to bashing kids heads in for disobedience and having recruits kill other recruits (who as far as could be told were exemplary students) just as loyalty tests.
Well, the brutality of the instructors and the fact that they have potentially lethal live fire training kind of reminded me of it. Either way, whoever wrote it clearly wanted to have a "training from hell" aspect to the Stormtroopers lore but forgot that having GrimDark for the sake of GrimDark gives you GrimDerp.
That was kinda my impression. Grimdark is great, and I'm all for gratuitous violence, there's Grimdark...and then there's Grimderp as you say.
It's like the difference between Schindler's List, and Starship Troopers, and Hostel, they're all grim and dark and violent, but one is an evocative story where the violence is something that actually happened and is a major issue in the story, while another uses violence to accentuate and enhance the action and visual elements, while the last is torture porn, and the Scion book started reading to me most like the last there.
ThatSwellFella wrote: Ultramarines being second to the Emprah marines, and Black templars/space wolves striving to be like Calgar and ultramarines, but unable to match them because they told Guilliman where he can stick his smurfbook...
That's not what the 5th edition Codex says, if that's what you're referring to.
1 - Space Orks. They're like Klingons, they fight everyone and everything all the time because they can. How the gak did they get to the point where they're a galactic player? By all counts they should have annihilated themselves early in their creation. Apparently people like soccer hooligans in space more than actual hard-sci fi.
2 - Eldar. THESE douchebags. Their numbers are so small, they make comments about it in every novel/codex/fan fiction and yet...they're willing to sacrifice entire armies for pointless gains, Mymeara anyone? If they're so amazing at running the galaxy why is it that they fix nothing? Could chalk this up to GW never letting any sort of progression happen with the story lines.
3 - The Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition. You mean to tell me, the Emperor's last guiding words were to his most trusted of trusted homies, "Make sure you create orders that have no checks or balances, can kill/maim/destroy whatever they want just so long as they have this nifty little piece of metal, AND let them worship me as a god."? This annoys me beyond understanding.
4 - The whole "I'm a different Space Marine than you so we can't be bros until we've murdered gak together." or the massively idiotic "Your predecessor marine-brothers did something assbag-ish like ten thousand years ago so we can't fight together. Dick." Seriously? Professional soldiers TODAY don't act like this. Why are Space Marines described as petulant children?
5 - The Heresy. Beyond stupid. I can't write enough on how utterly cocked this entire series of events are.
1 - Space Orks. They're like Klingons, they fight everyone and everything all the time because they can. How the gak did they get to the point where they're a galactic player? By all counts they should have annihilated themselves early in their creation. Apparently people like soccer hooligans in space more than actual hard-sci fi.
40k isn't hard scifi, it's Swords and Sorcery in Space.
1 - Space Orks. They're like Klingons, they fight everyone and everything all the time because they can. How the gak did they get to the point where they're a galactic player? By all counts they should have annihilated themselves early in their creation. Apparently people like soccer hooligans in space more than actual hard-sci fi.
2 - Eldar. THESE douchebags. Their numbers are so small, they make comments about it in every novel/codex/fan fiction and yet...they're willing to sacrifice entire armies for pointless gains, Mymeara anyone? If they're so amazing at running the galaxy why is it that they fix nothing? Could chalk this up to GW never letting any sort of progression happen with the story lines.
3 - The Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition. You mean to tell me, the Emperor's last guiding words were to his most trusted of trusted homies, "Make sure you create orders that have no checks or balances, can kill/maim/destroy whatever they want just so long as they have this nifty little piece of metal, AND let them worship me as a god."? This annoys me beyond understanding.
4 - The whole "I'm a different Space Marine than you so we can't be bros until we've murdered gak together." or the massively idiotic "Your predecessor marine-brothers did something assbag-ish like ten thousand years ago so we can't fight together. Dick." Seriously? Professional soldiers TODAY don't act like this. Why are Space Marines described as petulant children?
5 - The Heresy. Beyond stupid. I can't write enough on how utterly cocked this entire series of events are.
Eldar aren't really dying. The Eldar bitch and moan about how their numbers are so poor, but that's because at their height there were tredecillion Eldar in the Eldar Empire. Now there's -just- billions. However compared to the shear ridiculously large number that is a tredecillion compared to a "mere" couple billion.
Furyou Miko wrote: Avatars and Battle Sisters, these things exist in 40k fluff for one reason, it seems:
To die in order to show how badass the enemy slaying them is.
When have Sisters ever suffered from the Worf effect? That roll always seems to belong to the Blood Angels or Imperial Fists.
Sactuary 101 - Sisters obliterated to show off the Necrons.
Ben Counter's first Grey Knights novel. Sisters slaughtered to show off how dangerous the cultists were.
Blood Tide. Not the part about the GK slaughtering them, the bit where before that they were almost all killed and some of them even devolved into chaos spawn because of a lack of faith. What.
13th Legion. Sisters slaughtered by 'nids in the opening scenes to show how badass Kage was for beating them back with a rifle butt.
I'm sure there are more, but thats what come to mind initially.
SharkoutofWata wrote:
But, if anyone remembers the Inquisition War with Ordo Hydra... A super secret Ordo above Malleus that... does the same thing as Malleus but also uses a warp-fed daemon that is essentially Tzeentch boogers to devour worlds. A Callidus Assassin that becomes a Genestealer, a Rogue Inquisitor and former Space Marine dropping into the Golden Throne for a chat with the split-personality Emperor... Oh that book was an awful bit of non-canonical garbage.
Actually, they revived the "Callidus aping a Genestealer in a really good short story last year called "The Beast Within" or some such. The main focus of the book is actually about what it means to be human... and whether a Callidus assassin can even be considered such before they surgically alter her to be able to take genestealer form. Well worth a read.
TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
I've read this before and I want it to be true, but sadly I have also heard it said that any lore in a GW publication (The codex) trumps anything in a FW publication(Orpheus).
Don't get me wrong, I essential choose to ignore the Dolmen Gates lore and hope it gets retconned later.
Well, as already states, the only canon order that matters is chronological, so Fall of Orpheus overwrites Codex: Necrons. Of course, FoO doesn't deny the existence of dolmen gates, which I choose to interpret as meaning that the inertialess drive doesn't have a range of more than a few million lightyears in a single jump or so.
Iron_Captain wrote:
farmersboy wrote: Anything where there is talk of Space Marines rolling around or slinging a sword across their backs, the author clearly forgetting there's a chuffing great power generator on the marines back.
With slinging swords over your back there is also the issue that it may look cool but is extremely impractical as you would never be able to draw your sword unless you had really, really long arms. I just can't believe how many videogames, movies and artworks get this basic fact of physics wrong. You can't draw a sword from your back, ever. Swords were never worn on the back in real history.
Now with this pet peeve out of the way, I must say that despite all the horrible and silly 40k fluff out there, C.S. Goto's work still is the absolute epitome of nonsense.
I love it when people spout off as if they know everything.
Having worn a sword in both configurations, it is fully possible to draw a sword from a shoulder-harness. It leaves you very open to an initial attack, but provides a lot of power on the draw for a first strike. The difference is offensive vs defensive, not impossible vs possible.
Selym wrote:
When is a daemon not a chaos daemon...
When it's an Avatar, I guess, or an Imperial Daemon like Celestine, the Sanguinor or (controversial!) Draigo?
Vaktathi wrote:
TL;DR It read like Harry Potter torture porn to me.
Not words I really want to hear in conjunction. ><
Frankenberry wrote:Several things that don't make sense to me:
1 - Space Orks. They're like Klingons, they fight everyone and everything all the time because they can. How the gak did they get to the point where they're a galactic player? By all counts they should have annihilated themselves early in their creation. Apparently people like soccer hooligans in space more than actual hard-sci fi.
Ah, you missed the part where they're a deliberately seeded warrior race created specifically to fight a war against eternally regenerating undead robots. They didn't annihilate themselves because they were artificially spread around the place so much that the law of averages evened out.
Frankenberry wrote:2 - Eldar. THESE douchebags. Their numbers are so small, they make comments about it in every novel/codex/fan fiction and yet...they're willing to sacrifice entire armies for pointless gains, Mymeara anyone? If they're so amazing at running the galaxy why is it that they fix nothing? Could chalk this up to GW never letting any sort of progression happen with the story lines.
Lets not forget that Eldar Guardians are swarmy cannon fodder in game despite the fact that in the fluff, they should never see battle unless the Aspect Warriors are severely outmatched. Remember, fluff-wise, MSU Dire Avenger spam in wave serpents is canonical.
Frankenberry wrote:3 - The Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition. You mean to tell me, the Emperor's last guiding words were to his most trusted of trusted homies, "Make sure you create orders that have no checks or balances, can kill/maim/destroy whatever they want just so long as they have this nifty little piece of metal, AND let them worship me as a god."? This annoys me beyond understanding.
Not quite. The Emperor ordered the Inquisition to be founded with... rather reduced powers than that, and he outlawed religion repeatedly. The Ecclesiarchy rose out of a thousand warring cults and forced itself into power by main force after he died.
Frankenberry wrote:4 - The whole "I'm a different Space Marine than you so we can't be bros until we've murdered gak together." or the massively idiotic "Your predecessor marine-brothers did something assbag-ish like ten thousand years ago so we can't fight together. Dick." Seriously? Professional soldiers TODAY don't act like this. Why are Space Marines described as petulant children?
Because... Space Marines are basically children. Their psychological development is arrested when they're ten to thirteen years old and their implantation begins. Space Marines are highly trained, tactically brilliant, physically godlike children who never went through normal puberty.
Frankenberry wrote:
5 - The Heresy. Beyond stupid. I can't write enough on how utterly cocked this entire series of events are.
Some day, I'll do an itemised list of "Imperial cock-ups that caused the Heresy". I expect I'll breach double digits before I get through the first chapter of Horus Rising.
Furyou Miko wrote: Avatars and Battle Sisters, these things exist in 40k fluff for one reason, it seems:
To die in order to show how badass the enemy slaying them is.
When have Sisters ever suffered from the Worf effect? That roll always seems to belong to the Blood Angels or Imperial Fists.
Sactuary 101 - Sisters obliterated to show off the Necrons.
Ben Counter's first Grey Knights novel. Sisters slaughtered to show off how dangerous the cultists were.
Blood Tide. Not the part about the GK slaughtering them, the bit where before that they were almost all killed and some of them even devolved into chaos spawn because of a lack of faith. What.
13th Legion. Sisters slaughtered by 'nids in the opening scenes to show how badass Kage was for beating them back with a rifle butt.
I'm sure there are more, but thats what come to mind initially.
SharkoutofWata wrote:
But, if anyone remembers the Inquisition War with Ordo Hydra... A super secret Ordo above Malleus that... does the same thing as Malleus but also uses a warp-fed daemon that is essentially Tzeentch boogers to devour worlds. A Callidus Assassin that becomes a Genestealer, a Rogue Inquisitor and former Space Marine dropping into the Golden Throne for a chat with the split-personality Emperor... Oh that book was an awful bit of non-canonical garbage.
Actually, they revived the "Callidus aping a Genestealer in a really good short story last year called "The Beast Within" or some such. The main focus of the book is actually about what it means to be human... and whether a Callidus assassin can even be considered such before they surgically alter her to be able to take genestealer form. Well worth a read.
TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
I've read this before and I want it to be true, but sadly I have also heard it said that any lore in a GW publication (The codex) trumps anything in a FW publication(Orpheus).
Don't get me wrong, I essential choose to ignore the Dolmen Gates lore and hope it gets retconned later.
Well, as already states, the only canon order that matters is chronological, so Fall of Orpheus overwrites Codex: Necrons. Of course, FoO doesn't deny the existence of dolmen gates, which I choose to interpret as meaning that the inertialess drive doesn't have a range of more than a few million lightyears in a single jump or so.
Iron_Captain wrote:
farmersboy wrote: Anything where there is talk of Space Marines rolling around or slinging a sword across their backs, the author clearly forgetting there's a chuffing great power generator on the marines back.
With slinging swords over your back there is also the issue that it may look cool but is extremely impractical as you would never be able to draw your sword unless you had really, really long arms. I just can't believe how many videogames, movies and artworks get this basic fact of physics wrong. You can't draw a sword from your back, ever. Swords were never worn on the back in real history.
Now with this pet peeve out of the way, I must say that despite all the horrible and silly 40k fluff out there, C.S. Goto's work still is the absolute epitome of nonsense.
I love it when people spout off as if they know everything.
Having worn a sword in both configurations, it is fully possible to draw a sword from a shoulder-harness. It leaves you very open to an initial attack, but provides a lot of power on the draw for a first strike. The difference is offensive vs defensive, not impossible vs possible.
Selym wrote:
When is a daemon not a chaos daemon...
When it's an Avatar, I guess, or an Imperial Daemon like Celestine, the Sanguinor or (controversial!) Draigo?
Vaktathi wrote:
TL;DR It read like Harry Potter torture porn to me.
Not words I really want to hear in conjunction. ><
Frankenberry wrote:Several things that don't make sense to me:
1 - Space Orks. They're like Klingons, they fight everyone and everything all the time because they can. How the gak did they get to the point where they're a galactic player? By all counts they should have annihilated themselves early in their creation. Apparently people like soccer hooligans in space more than actual hard-sci fi.
Ah, you missed the part where they're a deliberately seeded warrior race created specifically to fight a war against eternally regenerating undead robots. They didn't annihilate themselves because they were artificially spread around the place so much that the law of averages evened out.
Frankenberry wrote:2 - Eldar. THESE douchebags. Their numbers are so small, they make comments about it in every novel/codex/fan fiction and yet...they're willing to sacrifice entire armies for pointless gains, Mymeara anyone? If they're so amazing at running the galaxy why is it that they fix nothing? Could chalk this up to GW never letting any sort of progression happen with the story lines.
Lets not forget that Eldar Guardians are swarmy cannon fodder in game despite the fact that in the fluff, they should never see battle unless the Aspect Warriors are severely outmatched. Remember, fluff-wise, MSU Dire Avenger spam in wave serpents is canonical.
Frankenberry wrote:3 - The Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition. You mean to tell me, the Emperor's last guiding words were to his most trusted of trusted homies, "Make sure you create orders that have no checks or balances, can kill/maim/destroy whatever they want just so long as they have this nifty little piece of metal, AND let them worship me as a god."? This annoys me beyond understanding.
Not quite. The Emperor ordered the Inquisition to be founded with... rather reduced powers than that, and he outlawed religion repeatedly. The Ecclesiarchy rose out of a thousand warring cults and forced itself into power by main force after he died.
Frankenberry wrote:4 - The whole "I'm a different Space Marine than you so we can't be bros until we've murdered gak together." or the massively idiotic "Your predecessor marine-brothers did something assbag-ish like ten thousand years ago so we can't fight together. Dick." Seriously? Professional soldiers TODAY don't act like this. Why are Space Marines described as petulant children?
Because... Space Marines are basically children. Their psychological development is arrested when they're ten to thirteen years old and their implantation begins. Space Marines are highly trained, tactically brilliant, physically godlike children who never went through normal puberty.
Frankenberry wrote:
5 - The Heresy. Beyond stupid. I can't write enough on how utterly cocked this entire series of events are.
Some day, I'll do an itemised list of "Imperial cock-ups that caused the Heresy". I expect I'll breach double digits before I get through the first chapter of Horus Rising.[/quote
Spoiler 'cause ALL THE QUOTES.
I understand the literal fluff behind each of these complaints of mine, but thanks for the notes anyway, a refresher in terribly designed fluff is always refreshing.
And I'd love to see that list, because even reading through the books just briefly coupled with Dakka's 40k General discussion and other internwebs sources, I can't figure out how anyone signed off on the stories. They're horrid. Heresy because the gods made you a better offer? Sure, I get that. Corrupted by the evil you've been fighting? Get that too. But because the Chaos Gods told Horus that mean 'ol daddy was being a doody-head? Come. the. feth. on! These Primarchs had been running around with the Emperor for centuries already, how in the gak did half of them find it a good idea to just go: "Well, dad's a dick, he won't let us practice religion, give us praise, tells us he loves us, or come back out to the front to fight with us. Let's break EVERYTHING we just worked a thousand years to make."
5 - The Heresy. Beyond stupid. I can't write enough on how utterly cocked this entire series of events are.
I like the Heresy at the key points of story: Emprah makes marines, conquers galaxy, betrayal ensues, Horus tries to kill emperor, half of humanity ruined, other half dead or chaos. Both sides keep a 10,000 year genocidal hatred.
But then they went too into detail, and made the entire thing look stupid.
...Daddy issues...
...Half the primarchs immune to headshots by WMD's...
...Tactical geniuses making childish errors...
...Emprah risking his life on the frontlines when he could easily do better elsewhere...
TL;DR It read like Harry Potter torture porn to me.
Not words I really want to hear in conjunction. ><
Now you can't unsee it
I'd also agree with the sentiment about the Horus Heresy stuff in general. I'd always like it more as a vague mystic point in time, shrouded in mystery that would never be fully revealed. Now that they have revealed everything, not only is it so explained as to no longer really be interesting, most of it is flat out stupid, with often exceedingly childish behavior and reasoning amongst these gods and demi-gods, and increasingly derpy material.
Also, for a supposedly ultra-intelligent being, he never seemed to particularly question or seem suspicious of the visions shown to him, despite them being the ultimate consequences of his choice to turn against the Emperor rather than what the Emperor had planned...
Furyou Miko wrote: Avatars and Battle Sisters, these things exist in 40k fluff for one reason, it seems:
To die in order to show how badass the enemy slaying them is.
When have Sisters ever suffered from the Worf effect? That roll always seems to belong to the Blood Angels or Imperial Fists.
Sactuary 101 - Sisters obliterated to show off the Necrons.
Ben Counter's first Grey Knights novel. Sisters slaughtered to show off how dangerous the cultists were.
Blood Tide. Not the part about the GK slaughtering them, the bit where before that they were almost all killed and some of them even devolved into chaos spawn because of a lack of faith. What.
13th Legion. Sisters slaughtered by 'nids in the opening scenes to show how badass Kage was for beating them back with a rifle butt.
From memory, there's also Mortarion corrupting a Waaaaagh and and using his chaos-orks to literally eat an entire Shrine world's worth of SIsters in the 6E CSM codex.
The Tyranids have eaten a minor order's worth of Sisters in a separate event from the one you listed.
A single Flesh Tearer who'd succumbed to the black rage butchered an entire squad of Sisters and an immolator, was later found and mercy-killed by one of his bros.
Space Wolves ran them off of Fenris once.
There's another one on the tip of my tongue that I can't recall.
Easily the dumbest, and most mismatched writing ever.
Horus: "Oh, Erebus! You're my bro!"
Magnus: "No! Erebus is lying to you!"
Horus: "But the Emprah said you can't do this! You must be lying to me too! I'll join Erebus!"
Even though I understand this. I still find that I'm annoyed at the contrast between different books and authors. Some instances have space marines that are neigh indestructible. A chapter takes out a heavily fortified world with only a company. Other times a group of cultists cane take out a space marine squad.
1 - Space Orks. They're like Klingons, they fight everyone and everything all the time because they can. How the gak did they get to the point where they're a galactic player? By all counts they should have annihilated themselves early in their creation. Apparently people like soccer hooligans in space more than actual hard-sci fi
Are you talking about the old orks, are the new orks who are fungal hybrids that are actually pretty thought out.
The portrayal of Space Marine capabilities in the Black Library is pretty consistent.
Srsly? The power of a SM even in one book can change dramatically.
Go on?
In an attempt to avoid claims of non-canon, here's the 5th ed Codex: Space Marines:
Ultramarines vs Eldar, Calgar pwns Avatar:
Spoiler:
Page 35:
"The Avatar Strikes [...]
Each irresistible sweep of the Avatar's flamin sword sundered armour, flesh and bone, leaving naught but unmoving bodies. Terminators of the 1st Company set upon the Avatar with power fist and thunder hammer, but their blows did little more than stagger it."
Also Page 35:
"Calgar's Triumph [...]
The second tore a great wound from Calgar's armour. A third drove deep into his shoulder, cleaving the pauldron and driving the Chapter Master to one knee. But the fourth, intended as the coup de grace to sever Calgar's head from his shoulders, slammed into the armoured palm of his left hand."
Half a paragraph further down, still Page 35:
"For a moment, mortal and god strove for control of the incandescent sword, and in that moment the Avatar was defenceless.
[...]
The Avatar roared in pain and fury as the power fist punched clean through the molten ichor of its torso."
Not the worst in power contrasts, but we go from terminators being butchered as a matter of course to a higher ranking guy wearing the same armour suddenly being capable of resisting the Avatar's attacks. He still wears TDA, still has a force field (not that it ever does anything in stories), and is still made of 6-pack muscle man like every other Astartes. But unlike all other Astartes, he can take these hits and just kinda go "Eh, I've felt worse". And then we see that while other Terminators can't do much to the Avatar with a powerfist (only staggering it), Calgar is somehow far stronger than any of them, and punches a hole straight through the damn thing. Tactical genius or not, Calgar is still a space marine.
And, power levels aside, this duel is an example of writing that's fun to read at first, but after a re-read turns out to not be well written or consistent. What was the point of making the sword a centerpiece of the fight if you're not going to do anything with it? Calgar instantly goes from wrestling for the sword to shoving a haymaker into the Avatar's chest. Bolter pron much?
Ima re-read the rest of that book, to look for any more examples.
The portrayal of Space Marine capabilities in the Black Library is pretty consistent.
Srsly? The power of a SM even in one book can change dramatically.
Go on?
In an attempt to avoid claims of non-canon, here's the 5th ed Codex: Space Marines:
Ultramarines vs Eldar, Calgar pwns Avatar:
Spoiler:
Page 35:
"The Avatar Strikes [...]
Each irresistible sweep of the Avatar's flamin sword sundered armour, flesh and bone, leaving naught but unmoving bodies. Terminators of the 1st Company set upon the Avatar with power fist and thunder hammer, but their blows did little more than stagger it."
Also Page 35:
"Calgar's Triumph [...]
The second tore a great wound from Calgar's armour. A third drove deep into his shoulder, cleaving the pauldron and driving the Chapter Master to one knee. But the fourth, intended as the coup de grace to sever Calgar's head from his shoulders, slammed into the armoured palm of his left hand."
Half a paragraph further down, still Page 35:
"For a moment, mortal and god strove for control of the incandescent sword, and in that moment the Avatar was defenceless.
[...]
The Avatar roared in pain and fury as the power fist punched clean through the molten ichor of its torso."
Not the worst in power contrasts, but we go from terminators being butchered as a matter of course to a higher ranking guy wearing the same armour suddenly being capable of resisting the Avatar's attacks. He still wears TDA, still has a force field (not that it ever does anything in stories), and is still made of 6-pack muscle man like every other Astartes. But unlike all other Astartes, he can take these hits and just kinda go "Eh, I've felt worse". And then we see that while other Terminators can't do much to the Avatar with a powerfist (only staggering it), Calgar is somehow far stronger than any of them, and punches a hole straight through the damn thing. Tactical genius or not, Calgar is still a space marine.
And, power levels aside, this duel is an example of writing that's fun to read at first, but after a re-read turns out to not be well written or consistent. What was the point of making the sword a centerpiece of the fight if you're not going to do anything with it? Calgar instantly goes from wrestling for the sword to shoving a haymaker into the Avatar's chest. Bolter pron much?
The Gauntlets of Ultramar are relics from the Horus Heresy, running on the theme that some of the older stuff is vastly superior to new it's hardly surprising that Calgar did more damage than his underlings.
The portrayal of Space Marine capabilities in the Black Library is pretty consistent.
Srsly? The power of a SM even in one book can change dramatically.
Go on?
In an attempt to avoid claims of non-canon, here's the 5th ed Codex: Space Marines:
Ultramarines vs Eldar, Calgar pwns Avatar:
Spoiler:
Page 35:
"The Avatar Strikes [...]
Each irresistible sweep of the Avatar's flamin sword sundered armour, flesh and bone, leaving naught but unmoving bodies. Terminators of the 1st Company set upon the Avatar with power fist and thunder hammer, but their blows did little more than stagger it."
Also Page 35:
"Calgar's Triumph [...]
The second tore a great wound from Calgar's armour. A third drove deep into his shoulder, cleaving the pauldron and driving the Chapter Master to one knee. But the fourth, intended as the coup de grace to sever Calgar's head from his shoulders, slammed into the armoured palm of his left hand."
Half a paragraph further down, still Page 35:
"For a moment, mortal and god strove for control of the incandescent sword, and in that moment the Avatar was defenceless.
[...]
The Avatar roared in pain and fury as the power fist punched clean through the molten ichor of its torso."
Not the worst in power contrasts, but we go from terminators being butchered as a matter of course to a higher ranking guy wearing the same armour suddenly being capable of resisting the Avatar's attacks. He still wears TDA, still has a force field (not that it ever does anything in stories), and is still made of 6-pack muscle man like every other Astartes. But unlike all other Astartes, he can take these hits and just kinda go "Eh, I've felt worse". And then we see that while other Terminators can't do much to the Avatar with a powerfist (only staggering it), Calgar is somehow far stronger than any of them, and punches a hole straight through the damn thing. Tactical genius or not, Calgar is still a space marine.
And, power levels aside, this duel is an example of writing that's fun to read at first, but after a re-read turns out to not be well written or consistent. What was the point of making the sword a centerpiece of the fight if you're not going to do anything with it? Calgar instantly goes from wrestling for the sword to shoving a haymaker into the Avatar's chest. Bolter pron much?
Ima re-read the rest of that book, to look for any more examples.
It's almost like Calgar is one of if not the best Ultramarine and is skilled enough to keep himself from being mortally wounded better than far lesser warriors or something.
No but seriously, you should like, read some classic Greek literature or something. Calgar is positively tame relative to his fellow Marines compared to how Hector for example compares with his fellow Trojans.
Well, yes, in the sense that Guilliman took them from a Chaos Champion during the Heresy. Not in the sense that they house a Greater Daemon of Khorne and shoot boiling rivers of blood at their enemies, at least not as far as we know.
Well, yes, in the sense that Guilliman took them from a Chaos Champion during the Heresy. Not in the sense that they house a Greater Daemon of Khorne and shoot boiling rivers of blood at their enemies, at least not as far as we know.
BlaxicanX wrote: From memory, there's also Mortarion corrupting a Waaaaagh and and using his chaos-orks to literally eat an entire Shrine world's worth of SIsters in the 6E CSM codex.
BlaxicanX wrote: From memory, there's also Mortarion corrupting a Waaaaagh and and using his chaos-orks to literally eat an entire Shrine world's worth of SIsters in the 6E CSM codex.
Cannibalistic orks? Is that a thing now?
I recall that in Rynn's World, Orks were eating people.
Frankenberry wrote:2 - Eldar. THESE douchebags. Their numbers are so small, they make comments about it in every novel/codex/fan fiction and yet...they're willing to sacrifice entire armies for pointless gains, Mymeara anyone? If they're so amazing at running the galaxy why is it that they fix nothing? Could chalk this up to GW never letting any sort of progression happen with the story lines.
Lets not forget that Eldar Guardians are swarmy cannon fodder in game despite the fact that in the fluff, they should never see battle unless the Aspect Warriors are severely outmatched. Remember, fluff-wise, MSU Dire Avenger spam in wave serpents is canonical.
It actually depends on the Craftworld. Ulthwe, for example, is noted for not using much in the way of Aspect Warriors, and has a standing Guardian army. Whereas Biel-Tan has more Aspect Shrines then any other Craftworld.
BlaxicanX wrote: From memory, there's also Mortarion corrupting a Waaaaagh and and using his chaos-orks to literally eat an entire Shrine world's worth of SIsters in the 6E CSM codex.
Cannibalistic orks? Is that a thing now?
That wouldn't even be cannibalism, it's not humans eating humans after-all..
The Emperor as arch-atheist is a relatively new aspect of the fluff. It has not always been this way (in fact, in RT/2nd Ed, he wasn't even dead, and was noted to light candles for his fallen Space Marines, especially those of the Black Templars).
More recently, the only cults he stamped out were ones that didn't worship him. His bit with the Word Bearers was not simply because they were building temples to him, but because they were taking too much time in doing so, when that was not within their mission parameters.
He certainly didn't do anything to stop the cults amongst the Imperial Army and the citizens of Terra that were going on in his active life-time.
As far as the Inquisition goes... actually, he did give them nigh-unlimited authority. That was the whole point of founding the Inquisition. The Ecclesiarchy, as it currently exists, came around much, much later.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Well, yes, in the sense that Guilliman took them from a Chaos Champion during the Heresy. Not in the sense that they house a Greater Daemon of Khorne and shoot boiling rivers of blood at their enemies, at least not as far as we know.
A chaos artifact is a chaos artifact, no matter what powers it may display in the hands of an Astartes. But really, I am surprised that they haven't led the Ultramarines into heresy yet.
Vaktathi wrote:IIRC Orks have always been willing to eat humans, and even other Orks once other food supplies have been exhausted, that's nothing new.
Basic orkish cuisine involves various things made from squigs - squig burgers, squig beer, and so on.
Squigs grow from the same spores that Orks do.
So yes, Orks are highly cannibalistic, because they created their own ecosystem that involves eating their own children because of an accident of birth (where an ork spore lands in relation to shelter, dampness and sunlight determines what it hatches into).
BlaxicanX wrote: From memory, there's also Mortarion corrupting a Waaaaagh and and using his chaos-orks to literally eat an entire Shrine world's worth of SIsters in the 6E CSM codex.
Cannibalistic orks? Is that a thing now?
It's a thing that, like fungi IRL, Orks will eat pretty much anything.
The Heresy stories fail by making Primarchs essentially superheroes with the personalities and reasoning powers of man-children.
The Heresy as a story is a direct take off of Christian mythology and the war in heaven between Lucifer (i.e. Horus) and God (i.e. Emperor). Aside from the direct pride and jealousy of the Lucifer/Horus figure, more could have been done to examine the fundamental conflict and why so many rebel angels (i.e. the renegade Legions) chose to rebel. Namely, like the mythological version, the issue of the role of Man/humanity in the grand scheme. The rebel angels were among other things jealous and contemptuous of what they viewed as a lesser creation than themselves. Likewise, the loyalist Space Marines to some extent still do from this same issue, and sometimes seem to only pay lip service to the idea of serving the common man.
The fundamental conflict of the Heresy I see as one between a civilian government and its runaway military forces, each led by essentially a warlord, as well as one between the common human and the augmented Space Marines over who would govern and administer the Imperium. The CSM viewed themselves as superior and a ruling caste over the masses of normal humans and have created such tiered societies on their daemon worlds. The loyalist Space Marines still serve humanity as a whole, and there is a good 2nd edition Blood Angel story in the 2nd edition main boxset where a Blood Angel reflects on exactly this point, of Space Marines still ultimately being servants of humanity not masters over humanity.
Wyzilla wrote: Anything written by C. S. Goto or Ben Counter.
WHAT? Ben Counter is my favorite author! I consider his work to be the best of the Black Library! He's the one who got me interested in Captain Lysander, and the author of my favorite Black Library book Malodrax, which reads like it's Alice in Wonderland set in 40k.
Wyzilla wrote: Anything written by C. S. Goto or Ben Counter.
WHAT? Ben Counter is my favorite author! I consider his work to be the best of the Black Library! He's the one who got me interested in Captain Lysander, and the author of my favorite Black Library book Malodrax, which reads like it's Alice in Wonderland set in 40k.
He also can't write characters, just two dimensional cardboard cutouts and just largely writes tropes. Battle for the Abyss being an exceptional example of this, or his Space Wolves work where Counter shoves the word "Wolf" into nearly even goddamned sentence.
Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf. Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf.
Wyzilla wrote: Anything written by C. S. Goto or Ben Counter.
WHAT? Ben Counter is my favorite author! I consider his work to be the best of the Black Library! He's the one who got me interested in Captain Lysander, and the author of my favorite Black Library book Malodrax, which reads like it's Alice in Wonderland set in 40k.
He also can't write characters, just two dimensional cardboard cutouts and just largely writes tropes. Battle for the Abyss being an exceptional example of this, or his Space Wolves work where Counter shoves the word "Wolf" into nearly even goddamned sentence.
Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf. Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf.
Wyzilla wrote: Anything written by C. S. Goto or Ben Counter.
WHAT? Ben Counter is my favorite author! I consider his work to be the best of the Black Library! He's the one who got me interested in Captain Lysander, and the author of my favorite Black Library book Malodrax, which reads like it's Alice in Wonderland set in 40k.
He also can't write characters, just two dimensional cardboard cutouts and just largely writes tropes. Battle for the Abyss being an exceptional example of this, or his Space Wolves work where Counter shoves the word "Wolf" into nearly even goddamned sentence.
Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf. Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf.
When has Counter ever worked on the Space Wolves?
Twelve Wolves immediately jumps to mind. It was one of the most painful stories I've read in the Black Library, although I forgot it was William King who wrote the Space Wolves. I don't pay much attention to the wolves, hell outright avoid them after reading Twelve Wolves.
He also can't write characters, just two dimensional cardboard cutouts and just largely writes tropes. Battle for the Abyss being an exceptional example of this, or his Space Wolves work where Counter shoves the word "Wolf" into nearly even goddamned sentence.
Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf. Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf.
I haven't read that book. But I think you may be confusing him writing stories involving a LOT of naturally flat characters, such as Grey Knights, who have been mentally conditioned, or Lysander, who lost part of himself on Malodrax. Between them, psychotic chaos worshippers, and side characters that don't get much character development, I can understand why you'd think that but I contend that that's the way it's supposed to be.
He also can't write characters, just two dimensional cardboard cutouts and just largely writes tropes. Battle for the Abyss being an exceptional example of this, or his Space Wolves work where Counter shoves the word "Wolf" into nearly even goddamned sentence.
Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf. Wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf. Wolf. Wolf wolf wolf wolf wolf. Wolf wolf.
I haven't read that book. But I think you may be confusing him writing stories involving a LOT of naturally flat characters, such as Grey Knights, who have been mentally conditioned, or Lysander, who lost part of himself on Malodrax. Between them, psychotic chaos worshippers, and side characters that don't get much character development, I can understand why you'd think that but I contend that that's the way it's supposed to be.
That's simply an excuse by the author being incapable of writing good characters. Counter's also responsible for the atrocious, endless source of facepalms that are the Soul Drinkers. Plus there's Battle for the Abyss, which is as dry and boring as a Michael Bay film.
Vaktathi wrote: Ugh, I couldn't even finish Battle for the Abyss...
Same here, the only thing I liked about it was torpedo formations and general space combat, otherwise I hated it and couldn't finish it. When the World Eater is the most interesting and developed character in you're story, something's wrong.
Vaktathi wrote: Ugh, I couldn't even finish Battle for the Abyss...
Same here, the only thing I liked about it was torpedo formations and general space combat, otherwise I hated it and couldn't finish it. When the World Eater is the most interesting and developed character in you're story, something's wrong.
Unless the story is about the WE, but that's rare and difficult to do right.
The Horus Hersey stuff bothers me the most. Now I should qualify that I have read very little Black Library novels fluff, and generally rely on codexes and source books for fluff material that I actually read directly, and haven't read the Horus Hersey Books themselves. But they bother me on a conceptual level, I am very disappointed that that period of 40K's history has now been codified and hammered down, and I much preferred that it remain a mysterious, half remembered time of living legends. So much more room for competing theories, conspiracies, false history, unexplained stuff etc etc.
I should not that I include any previous stuff that did the same thing in my 'things that bother me book', as well.
For me its the Primarchs that didn't die. Aside from Mortarian and Angron, all of the primarchs, both loyalist and traitor, have done NOTHING. There's coincidence, and then there's bs. This is bs. Magnus is the only daemon primarch with a good excuse to keep himself locked up. He's a bookworm and is trying to understand Tzeentch who is impossible to understand. Destined to spend eternity trying to understand madness. Also, he still led his legion against Fenris that one time. So that's 3. Alpharius is another good one, who knows if he's dead or alive, he wouldn't let you know either way, so that makes 4. Yay Chaos.
As for Lorgar, Fulgrim, Puerto Rico, and all of the surviving loyalist primarchs, they have fallen victim to horrifically lazy writing. Guilliman's the only one that I can exempt. He's only technically alive, and it makes perfect sense.
Quarterdime wrote: For me its the Primarchs that didn't die. Aside from Mortarian and Angron, all of the primarchs, both loyalist and traitor, have done NOTHING. There's coincidence, and then there's bs. This is bs. Magnus is the only daemon primarch with a good excuse to keep himself locked up. He's a bookworm and is trying to understand Tzeentch who is impossible to understand. Destined to spend eternity trying to understand madness. Also, he still led his legion against Fenris that one time. So that's 3. Alpharius is another good one, who knows if he's dead or alive, he wouldn't let you know either way, so that makes 4. Yay Chaos.
As for Lorgar, Fulgrim, Puerto Rico, and all of the surviving loyalist primarchs, they have fallen victim to horrifically lazy writing. Guilliman's the only one that I can exempt. He's only technically alive, and it makes perfect sense.
Fulgrim also gets a pass for being, well, Fulgrim.
I mean, he's got the best KD ratio out of them all, having fethed not just one, but two other Primarchs in a manfight. Add to that his frat boy d-bag persona and just as planned hi-jinks and he's a total BAMF.
Fulgrim is useless, he only got the upper hand over Ferrus and Pert through treachery, and Guilliman was nearly killed by a squad of Alpha Legion assassins so not much of an accomplishment.
BlaxicanX wrote: And yet his record of achievements still craps on the majority of the other Primarchs'.
Although, I'm pretty sure Konrad Curze kicked the gak out of more Primarchs, but Fulgrim has the record of a kill, plus beating one other up. Either way though, Fulgrim is pretty successful, as while it was a horrible turn in the series, he even kicked out the daemon that had possessed him. And mind you, it wasn't just your usual one, it was described as some horrible abomination older than time if my memory isn't failing me.
But Curze wouldn't have had a convenient Heresy to join without Lorgar. Its pretty well implied that both Curze and Angron were next on the Emperors chopping block.
Ironclad Warlord wrote:Fulgrim is useless, he only got the upper hand over Ferrus and Pert through treachery, and Guilliman was nearly killed by a squad of Alpha Legion assassins so not much of an accomplishment.
The fact that he was sufficiently treacherous to get the upper hand over Perturabo the Paranoid kind of denies the idea that he is in any way useless. Treachery is a skill too.
Some people need some really dumb fiction to put all their urine and hate into. Otherwise I might do stupid things like burn my evil neighbours houses down. >>
Furyou Miko wrote: Some people need some really dumb fiction to put all their urine and hate into. Otherwise I might do stupid things like burn my evil neighbours houses down. >>
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against dumb, trashy fiction.
For me the 40k fluff is what you make of it yourself.
I can ignore all the dumb crap written by some of the Black Library writers, because I don't read most of it.
Just pick and choose the bits you like and ignore the rest as a delirious, warp dream or something.
The Crimson Fist fluff is stupid for one reason: they had to have the Crimson Fist's own missile system be the reason they were put in a bad position by the invading orks. They couldn't actually have the orks get one over on a chapter, no, they had to put themselves in that poor position.
PhillyT wrote: The Crimson Fist fluff is stupid for one reason: they had to have the Crimson Fist's own missile system be the reason they were put in a bad position by the invading orks. They couldn't actually have the orks get one over on a chapter, no, they had to put themselves in that poor position.
I don't know, the fact that the Orks took their missile system and managed to use it to screw them over is pretty good for the orks.
PhillyT wrote: The Crimson Fist fluff is stupid for one reason: they had to have the Crimson Fist's own missile system be the reason they were put in a bad position by the invading orks. They couldn't actually have the orks get one over on a chapter, no, they had to put themselves in that poor position.
I don't know, the fact that the Orks took their missile system and managed to use it to screw them over is pretty good for the orks.
The orks tried to damage the missiles, causing a misfire. In that battle, the only thing the orks really managed was to kill some survivors.
PhillyT wrote: The Crimson Fist fluff is stupid for one reason: they had to have the Crimson Fist's own missile system be the reason they were put in a bad position by the invading orks. They couldn't actually have the orks get one over on a chapter, no, they had to put themselves in that poor position.
I don't know, the fact that the Orks took their missile system and managed to use it to screw them over is pretty good for the orks.
The orks tried to damage the missiles, causing a misfire. In that battle, the only thing the orks really managed was to kill some survivors.
If they caused the misfire then surely it's their fault the Chapter was blown up......
Melissia wrote: Either the GK/SoB incident, or the entirety of the lore behind the Sons of Malice.
Oh god I hate the idea of Malal, and the later incarnation of the same idea, Malice. It's a Chaos God for people who want to be so edgy and hipster they're more chaotic than chaos.
#2edgy4chaos
Malal is more canon that most stuff.
He pre-dates WH40K.
Edit: I just checked to make sure. The first occurrence of Malal I could find was in the 1st edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay rulebook that was released in 1986. Warhammer 40k's Rogue Trader book was released in 1987.
Have to say all the Stalemates. It feels like the The Imperium never loses, they just get into a stalemate or win.
Biggest stalemate not the Imperium, but Orks vs Tyranids on Octarius(sp). So much so that in the new Ork Codex they threw Ghaz at the issue. Who still has the Armageddon going on...
DontEatRawHagis wrote: Have to say all the Stalemates. It feels like the The Imperium never loses, they just get into a stalemate or win.
Biggest stalemate not the Imperium, but Orks vs Tyranids on Octarius(sp). So much so that in the new Ork Codex they threw Ghaz at the issue. Who still has the Armageddon going on...
Ghazkhull abandoning Armageddon (he didn't want to wait for the Season of Fire to end) has been cannon for about 10 years now?
It's less about Ghaz abandoning Armageddon and more about the only way they could finish the stalemate with Tyranids was to add Ghazzy who seems to be locked in a stale mate on another planet.
Additionally:
How are Space Marine chapters able to bounce back so easily. Space Hulk canonized the death of nearly 99% of Blood Angels and still Salamanders are the smallest chapter.
With only a 1000 strong for most chapters I'm surprised more of them haven't been eradicated. Especially considering they send entire companies of 100 to fight an entire uprising sometimes.
DontEatRawHagis wrote: It's less about Ghaz abandoning Armageddon and more about the only way they could finish the stalemate with Tyranids was to add Ghazzy who seems to be locked in a stale mate on another planet.
Additionally:
How are Space Marine chapters able to bounce back so easily. Space Hulk canonized the death of nearly 99% of Blood Angels and still Salamanders are the smallest chapter.
With only a 1000 strong for most chapters I'm surprised more of them haven't been eradicated. Especially considering they send entire companies of 100 to fight an entire uprising sometimes.
It only takes 55 years to go from 1 progenoid gland to a Chapter's worth of gene-seed, so if they decided to take some down time they'd be able to bounce back pretty quick in the Imperial scheme of things.
Salamanders are kept small because they recruit very slowly.
Melissia wrote: Either the GK/SoB incident, or the entirety of the lore behind the Sons of Malice.
Oh god I hate the idea of Malal, and the later incarnation of the same idea, Malice. It's a Chaos God for people who want to be so edgy and hipster they're more chaotic than chaos.
#2edgy4chaos
Malal is more canon that most stuff.
He pre-dates WH40K.
Edit: I just checked to make sure. The first occurrence of Malal I could find was in the 1st edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay rulebook that was released in 1986. Warhammer 40k's Rogue Trader book was released in 1987.
No he isn't. Malal was retconned years ago due to a copyright dispute. He hasn't been canon for over a decade. Malice is canon however, although he's only showed up once in the short-story Labyrinth, and there is nothing pointing to Malice actually being a Chaos God, more of a glorified unaligned daemon.
Also, the older fluff is, the less canon it is, because it's more likely its been retconned by something. 40K is always marching forward, meaning that stuff that doesn't get updated is left behind in the dust.
DontEatRawHagis wrote: It's less about Ghaz abandoning Armageddon and more about the only way they could finish the stalemate with Tyranids was to add Ghazzy who seems to be locked in a stale mate on another planet.
Additionally:
How are Space Marine chapters able to bounce back so easily. Space Hulk canonized the death of nearly 99% of Blood Angels and still Salamanders are the smallest chapter.
With only a 1000 strong for most chapters I'm surprised more of them haven't been eradicated. Especially considering they send entire companies of 100 to fight an entire uprising sometimes.
Lesser chapters routinely get eradicated, and they are either remade or replaced by the IOM, using some of the reserve geneseeds that all chapters have to send off as taxation.
Also, it is highly probable that the most reputable chapters such as the BA or UM would get a few hundred 'seeds refunded after a crisis.
Melissia wrote: Either the GK/SoB incident, or the entirety of the lore behind the Sons of Malice.
Oh god I hate the idea of Malal, and the later incarnation of the same idea, Malice. It's a Chaos God for people who want to be so edgy and hipster they're more chaotic than chaos.
#2edgy4chaos
Malal is more canon that most stuff.
He pre-dates WH40K.
Edit: I just checked to make sure. The first occurrence of Malal I could find was in the 1st edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay rulebook that was released in 1986. Warhammer 40k's Rogue Trader book was released in 1987.
No he isn't. Malal was retconned years ago due to a copyright dispute. He hasn't been canon for over a decade. Malice is canon however, although he's only showed up once in the short-story Labyrinth, and there is nothing pointing to Malice actually being a Chaos God, more of a glorified unaligned daemon.
Also, the older fluff is, the less canon it is, because it's more likely its been retconned by something. 40K is always marching forward, meaning that stuff that doesn't get updated is left behind in the dust.
The closest you'd get to a fifth chaos god in 40katm is Be'lakor, but only in that he has a history of being worshiped as one.
The four gods pooled their power to make him as a sort of spearhead, like Horus. The four gods since then have been fighting for control of his allegiance, to use him as a direct influence on the universe.
I would have to go with Matt Ward's rendition of GK and the reason I sold the army. From making Purifiers akin to a secret frat house. Everyone wants to get in, but if they go in without the approval of purifiers then they are beaten or as Matt puts it "never seen again." Plus he describes the older librarians teaching the younger ones, but still looking out for possible corruption.
All of this would be fine and good for a normal space marine chapter. Even the dark angels might silence a few of its own members should they learn too much about their secrets. However, this is the Grey Knights, its in the codex as it has been in the last one that Grey Knights (once fully done with procedures) are immune to the temptations of the warp. You dont need to watch over the early librarians because they already proved to be resistant to any kind of chaos. In addition, what kind of secrets do the Purifier have that really require killing a curious grey knight brother? They already know of chaos, of the origins of the horus heresy and they often work with the inquistion so they are used to dealing with secrets.
As for those who complain about the new Necrons, I actually much prefer the new Necron content. Before they were all unthinking robot slaves controlled by the C'tan. In a sense, they were like the tyranids, at least in behavior. Both the Hive Mind and the C'tan control their subjects with and iron will and the troops are essentially mindless drones.
For the Tyranids, this works. They are bugs and so they should have a more bestial and alien way of behavior. For necrons, it was boring and just left the hobbyist little in the way of conversions. The new background though gives the necron lords and their court a voice and personality now. Zahndrek is one of my favorite characters as I enjoy the idea of the long sleep making certain lords, or whole dynasties, a little eccentric. This way you can have new options now with modeling. (maybe Zahndrek's bodyguards can carry goblets with them since he believe's they are still flesh and blood)
like the eldar too, this diversity of personalities like how there are substantially different cultures on different craft worlds, means that you can find lots of different reasons for them to fight (or to ally). Instead of being the merciless, cold robots they were before, some lords are described as sending emissaries or trying to payoff certain imperial governors for access to their tombs or just simply have them assassinated so that they can take the planet more easily. Like the differences between Iyanden, Saim-Hann, and Ulthwe, different necron dynasties could behave and fight in very different ways and thus it gives more options to the player and more possibilities.
Actually the oldcron codex, while still very flawed, was still preferable to the generic cookie-cutter bread and butter cartoon villains they often are now.
Void__Dragon wrote: Actually the oldcron codex, while still very flawed, was still preferable to the generic cookie-cutter bread and butter cartoon villains they often are now.
I'm sorry, but you can't get more generic bad guys than the Grim Reaper and Satan.
Animus wrote: I'm sorry, but you can't get more generic bad guys than the Grim Reaper and Satan.
None of the other Grim Reaper figures went about their reaping in nearly the same manner as Nightbringer, and Satan? Are you referring to The Deceiver?
I'll also point out that giving Necron Lords personalities is not and never has been what oldcron fans disliked about the new fluff, for the most part.
Animus wrote: I'm sorry, but you can't get more generic bad guys than the Grim Reaper and Satan.
None of the other Grim Reaper figures went about their reaping in nearly the same manner as Nightbringer, and Satan? Are you referring to The Deceiver?
I'll also point out that giving Necron Lords personalities is not and never has been what oldcron fans disliked about the new fluff, for the most part.
Killing people with his scythe is a pretty Grim Reaper thing to do. And yes, the Deceiver is a Satan analogue; Prince of Lies, Faustian bargaining, fair form, and he even has horns.
It seems to me that that is what they dislike, because it makes them not so monolithic or "scary" as if they ever were.
Animus wrote: I'm sorry, but you can't get more generic bad guys than the Grim Reaper and Satan.
None of the other Grim Reaper figures went about their reaping in nearly the same manner as Nightbringer, and Satan? Are you referring to The Deceiver?
I'll also point out that giving Necron Lords personalities is not and never has been what oldcron fans disliked about the new fluff, for the most part.
It's the main thing what irks me about NewCron fluff. To TruCrons, Necrons will always be a mindless mass of robot minions led by the C'tan. I, personally, when fielding Zahndrekh, name him 01010100 01100001 01101011 01110100 01101001 01101011 (on army list, on the battlefield, it's just "leading unit") and every unit is referred to with a number as well.
PhillyT wrote: The Crimson Fist fluff is stupid for one reason: they had to have the Crimson Fist's own missile system be the reason they were put in a bad position by the invading orks. They couldn't actually have the orks get one over on a chapter, no, they had to put themselves in that poor position.
I don't know, the fact that the Orks took their missile system and managed to use it to screw them over is pretty good for the orks.
The orks tried to damage the missiles, causing a misfire. In that battle, the only thing the orks really managed was to kill some survivors.
If they caused the misfire then surely it's their fault the Chapter was blown up......
I don't think that the missile misfire was an intentional act by the orks. I thought the missiles misfired through random damage during the attack (as in orks just fire away at things hoping that they will go boom).
Either way, the fact remains that the terrible damage suffered by the Crimson Fists weren't due to the ork's tactical precision. It was their own super awesome space marine weapons accidentally shooting themselves.
Animus wrote: I'm sorry, but you can't get more generic bad guys than the Grim Reaper and Satan.
None of the other Grim Reaper figures went about their reaping in nearly the same manner as Nightbringer, and Satan? Are you referring to The Deceiver?
I'll also point out that giving Necron Lords personalities is not and never has been what oldcron fans disliked about the new fluff, for the most part.
Well, no, it certainly isn't the problem that oldcron players have with the newcron fluff - because it's not newcron fluff OIdcron fluff stated that the dormant Lords and rulers had intact personalities and emotions. It's in the original Apocalypse rulebook, as well as many White Dwarf sources. Anyone claiming to be a "Trucron" fan who doesn't know that is nothing more than a poseur.
Animus wrote:Killing people with his scythe is a pretty Grim Reaper thing to do. And yes, the Deceiver is a Satan analogue; Prince of Lies, Faustian bargaining, fair form, and he even has horns.
It seems to me that that is what they dislike, because it makes them not so monolithic or "scary" as if they ever were.
Except for the fact that the Nightbringer's scythe was purely cosmetic, it stated so in his codex entry. Also, the Grim Reaper as we know it, in universe, is a vision of the Nightbringer built into our ancestral memory. According to Oldcron fluff, anyway.
Sigvatr wrote:It's the main thing what irks me about NewCron fluff. To TruCrons, Necrons will always be a mindless mass of robot minions led by the C'tan. I, personally, when fielding Zahndrekh, name him 01010100 01100001 01101011 01110100 01101001 01101011 (on army list, on the battlefield, it's just "leading unit") and every unit is referred to with a number as well.
Oldcron fluff had the Lords' secret, hidden masters who were yet to awaken with personalities too. That's not a Newcron invention.
djdutton wrote: I would have to go with Matt Ward's rendition of GK and the reason I sold the army. From making Purifiers akin to a secret frat house. Everyone wants to get in, but if they go in without the approval of purifiers then they are beaten or as Matt puts it "never seen again." Plus he describes the older librarians teaching the younger ones, but still looking out for possible corruption.
All of this would be fine and good for a normal space marine chapter. Even the dark angels might silence a few of its own members should they learn too much about their secrets. However, this is the Grey Knights, its in the codex as it has been in the last one that Grey Knights (once fully done with procedures) are immune to the temptations of the warp. You dont need to watch over the early librarians because they already proved to be resistant to any kind of chaos. In addition, what kind of secrets do the Purifier have that really require killing a curious grey knight brother? They already know of chaos, of the origins of the horus heresy and they often work with the inquistion so they are used to dealing with secrets.
Personally I think the idea the purifiers are guarding something so secrect even the rank and file grey knights cannot know of it is an intresting one. something another author could take and run with at a later date. I'll give that a pass myself, (I've got a personal pet theory that the thing that's really being guarded is the Terminus decree. which is in my theory, the key to awaken the Emperor)
as for Librarians watching others for signs of chaos corruption, I don't see any issue with this, I see it as more the grey knights aren't being complacent and taking their incorruptability for granted. Complacancy in matters of the soul is proably a HUGE weakness.
Well, no, it certainly isn't the problem that oldcron players have with the newcron fluff - because it's not newcron fluff OIdcron fluff stated that the dormant Lords and rulers had intact personalities and emotions. It's in the original Apocalypse rulebook, as well as many White Dwarf sources. Anyone claiming to be a "Trucron" fan who doesn't know that is nothing more than a poseur.
Right, which I've been saying for years, literally since the newcron codex came out. There was IIRC one quote attributed to a Necron Lord in the 3e codex proper, and one holds an actual conversation with someone in Xenology.
Which is why the "hurr ur just mad cause necrons aren't boring with no personality anymore" argument is fundamentally bs. It's a matter of presentation, and the Necrons as presented in the fifth edition codex have very little in common with the third edition codex.
Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.
Killing people with his scythe is a pretty Grim Reaper thing to do.
Okay,,,? As Furyou Miko pointed out, the grim reaper as a concept was created by the Nightbringer imprinting its image upon the genetic memory of every species save the Orks.
The Nightbringer is different from the standard Grim Reaper model though in that death is just the conclusion to its game. It likes to enjoy itself before it kills, thrilling in the pain and fear of its victims as it hunts and stalks them.
And yes, the Deceiver is a Satan analogue; Prince of Lies, Faustian bargaining, fair form, and he even has horns.
Which still makes it relatively fresh and interesting in the setting of 40k.
Almost everything, maybe everything in 40k is heavily based on something that came before.
It seems to me that that is what they dislike, because it makes them not so monolithic or "scary" as if they ever were.
They aren't as monolithic or scary anymore, and that's due to presentation. A faction that has a mustache-twirling over the top Doctor Doom-esque archaeologist clashes heavily with the image and presentation of the Necrons prior. As does Zandrekh. Or that other guy whose name I forget.
It's the main thing what irks me about NewCron fluff. To TruCrons, Necrons will always be a mindless mass of robot minions led by the C'tan. I, personally, when fielding Zahndrekh, name him 01010100 01100001 01101011 01110100 01101001 01101011 (on army list, on the battlefield, it's just "leading unit") and every unit is referred to with a number as well.
The whole Horus Heresy series has successfully reduced a cool piece of a fluff to several thousand pages of wangsty Primarchs and the God Emperor just being a misunderstood good guy. But I suppose that its too big at this point to be considered one piece of bad fluff. Its closer to several pieces of bad fluff.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.
I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.
Okay,,,? As Furyou Miko pointed out, the grim reaper as a concept was created by the Nightbringer imprinting its image upon the genetic memory of every species save the Orks.
Despite the fact that is very, very stupid. Considering it was said he was the one who put the fear of 'death' into every race Except the Orks, who still feel freakin fear! Heck several Ork players I know despite the Necron codex for trying to shoehorn them in a biological weapon against the Necron alongside the Eldar.
Then there's the fact that Necrons, being metal tyranids never really suffered much of anything that could be considered a 'loss', they always won, it was a very Pyrrhic victory and that the Necrons aren't even hurt..
Mary Sue oldcrons pretty much, still don't like em.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.
I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.
Eh, to each their own. I find the new fluff to humanizes them too much, I liked Necrons much more as the sort of un-knowable dark force of impending doom, rather than the splintered dynasties of squabbling oligarchs they are now. Too me they just really are too derivative of the Tomb Kings, which cheapens both in my eyes.
So-called "biotech" is one of the worst scifi tropes there is, and total bunk. There's no advantage to growing your weapons over making them from cold steel and hard minerals, at least not when you get to any range beyond claws. Living ships that need food is a giant idiocy. Why not use that food to feed your warriors instead? And the whole specialized warrior organism thing to begin with. We humans rule our world because we're generalists - specialization is for insects. What would you rather have, three specialized warriors (claws, little gun, big gun) or three normal hands-equipped humans who can pick up any of those?
The Warriors are the food. The Hive Fleets consume their victorious armies after a planet falls, as well as everything else on the planet that can be consumed, which includes the atmosphere, the oceans, the soil... everything down to the bare bedrock.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.
I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.
Eh, to each their own. I find the new fluff to humanizes them too much, I liked Necrons much more as the sort of un-knowable dark force of impending doom, rather than the splintered dynasties of squabbling oligarchs they are now. Too me they just really are too derivative of the Tomb Kings, which cheapens both in my eyes.
Exactly. It's like the Reapers in Mass Effect 1. They are so utterly inhuman so they are really interesting.
In this case, lolharbinger is comparable to the Newcrons I guess.
djdutton wrote: I would have to go with Matt Ward's rendition of GK and the reason I sold the army. From making Purifiers akin to a secret frat house. Everyone wants to get in, but if they go in without the approval of purifiers then they are beaten or as Matt puts it "never seen again." Plus he describes the older librarians teaching the younger ones, but still looking out for possible corruption.
All of this would be fine and good for a normal space marine chapter. Even the dark angels might silence a few of its own members should they learn too much about their secrets. However, this is the Grey Knights, its in the codex as it has been in the last one that Grey Knights (once fully done with procedures) are immune to the temptations of the warp. You dont need to watch over the early librarians because they already proved to be resistant to any kind of chaos. In addition, what kind of secrets do the Purifier have that really require killing a curious grey knight brother? They already know of chaos, of the origins of the horus heresy and they often work with the inquistion so they are used to dealing with secrets.
Personally I think the idea the purifiers are guarding something so secrect even the rank and file grey knights cannot know of it is an intresting one. something another author could take and run with at a later date. I'll give that a pass myself, (I've got a personal pet theory that the thing that's really being guarded is the Terminus decree. which is in my theory, the key to awaken the Emperor)
as for Librarians watching others for signs of chaos corruption, I don't see any issue with this, I see it as more the grey knights aren't being complacent and taking their incorruptability for granted. Complacancy in matters of the soul is proably a HUGE weakness.
Eh...at some point you run into the Dragon Ball Z trap..."to defeat you I must become Super Saiyan" "ah, but I can become Super Saiyan level 2!" "aha but I secretly learned how to become Super Saiyan 3......!"
The Grey Knight's mere existence is already such an incredible secret that they can't even let other Space Marine Chapter Masters know that they exist. At some point, if the information is so dangerous that you can't even trust a Grey Knight with it, it's probably smarter for the purifiers to either let the knowledge die or to compartmentalize it so that no one person knows it all.
So-called "biotech" is one of the worst scifi tropes there is, and total bunk. There's no advantage to growing your weapons over making them from cold steel and hard minerals, at least not when you get to any range beyond claws. Living ships that need food is a giant idiocy. Why not use that food to feed your warriors instead? And the whole specialized warrior organism thing to begin with. We humans rule our world because we're generalists - specialization is for insects. What would you rather have, three specialized warriors (claws, little gun, big gun) or three normal hands-equipped humans who can pick up any of those?
Right, but what if you could genetically engineer people to specialize at their work? Specialized warriors, specialized laborers, specialized pilots...
And it's silly to pretend that human technology isn't just like biotech. How long does your computer run once you unplug it? How far will a plane fly without fuel and maintenance? How long can an Imperial warship brave the warp storms without maintenance?
There are plenty of examples of humans relying on biotech, even today. Our ecosystem only works because of incomprehensible amounts of biotech, bacteria eating dead animals, fungi eating the waste, plants absorbing nitrogen, converting CO2 to O2, animals digesting plants, animals digesting animals, animals converting O2 to CO2, etc. We often pretend that we're in control of the planet, but in reality our ecosystem provides quadrillions of dollars of services that allow us to survive (in economics we call this the shadow price). Imagine how difficult it would be for a space ship to provide all of those same services in perpetuity.
The Tyranid biotech is all about efficiency, more efficiently collecting and converting biomass into fuel for its war machine than any other species can collect and convert their resources to fuel their armies.
A biological Spaceship, while neat, costs much, much more energy to produce and maintain than it's mechanical equivalent. Machines are just more energy efficient than biological life.
djdutton wrote: I would have to go with Matt Ward's rendition of GK and the reason I sold the army. From making Purifiers akin to a secret frat house. Everyone wants to get in, but if they go in without the approval of purifiers then they are beaten or as Matt puts it "never seen again." Plus he describes the older librarians teaching the younger ones, but still looking out for possible corruption.
All of this would be fine and good for a normal space marine chapter. Even the dark angels might silence a few of its own members should they learn too much about their secrets. However, this is the Grey Knights, its in the codex as it has been in the last one that Grey Knights (once fully done with procedures) are immune to the temptations of the warp. You dont need to watch over the early librarians because they already proved to be resistant to any kind of chaos. In addition, what kind of secrets do the Purifier have that really require killing a curious grey knight brother? They already know of chaos, of the origins of the horus heresy and they often work with the inquistion so they are used to dealing with secrets.
Personally I think the idea the purifiers are guarding something so secrect even the rank and file grey knights cannot know of it is an intresting one. something another author could take and run with at a later date. I'll give that a pass myself, (I've got a personal pet theory that the thing that's really being guarded is the Terminus decree. which is in my theory, the key to awaken the Emperor) as for Librarians watching others for signs of chaos corruption, I don't see any issue with this, I see it as more the grey knights aren't being complacent and taking their incorruptability for granted. Complacancy in matters of the soul is proably a HUGE weakness.
Eh...at some point you run into the Dragon Ball Z trap..."to defeat you I must become Super Saiyan" "ah, but I can become Super Saiyan level 2!" "aha but I secretly learned how to become Super Saiyan 3......!"
The Grey Knight's mere existence is already such an incredible secret that they can't even let other Space Marine Chapter Masters know that they exist. At some point, if the information is so dangerous that you can't even trust a Grey Knight with it, it's probably smarter for the purifiers to either let the knowledge die or to compartmentalize it so that no one person knows it all.
So-called "biotech" is one of the worst scifi tropes there is, and total bunk. There's no advantage to growing your weapons over making them from cold steel and hard minerals, at least not when you get to any range beyond claws. Living ships that need food is a giant idiocy. Why not use that food to feed your warriors instead? And the whole specialized warrior organism thing to begin with. We humans rule our world because we're generalists - specialization is for insects. What would you rather have, three specialized warriors (claws, little gun, big gun) or three normal hands-equipped humans who can pick up any of those?
Right, but what if you could genetically engineer people to specialize at their work? Specialized warriors, specialized laborers, specialized pilots...
And it's silly to pretend that human technology isn't just like biotech. How long does your computer run once you unplug it? How far will a plane fly without fuel and maintenance? How long can an Imperial warship brave the warp storms without maintenance?
There are plenty of examples of humans relying on biotech, even today. Our ecosystem only works because of incomprehensible amounts of biotech, bacteria eating dead animals, fungi eating the waste, plants absorbing nitrogen, converting CO2 to O2, animals digesting plants, animals digesting animals, animals converting O2 to CO2, etc. We often pretend that we're in control of the planet, but in reality our ecosystem provides quadrillions of dollars of services that allow us to survive (in economics we call this the shadow price). Imagine how difficult it would be for a space ship to provide all of those same services in perpetuity.
The Tyranid biotech is all about efficiency, more efficiently collecting and converting biomass into fuel for its war machine than any other species can collect and convert their resources to fuel their armies.
Except your ignoring the entire problem of why machines are better- it's due to thermodynamics/conservation of energy, machines require less energy to maintain than biological versions, and are more energy efficient simply because that's how the universe works. Tyranids are wasting a ridiculous amount of energy by being bio-tech thanks to bio-tech being an incredibly stupid sci fi trope that just doesn't work. You have to constantly supply energy to something biological simply to ensure the cells don't die. You only need to apply energy to a machine either during maintenance or to get the gears grinding, because free energy doesn't exist. Plus there's the problem of cells dying, where instead of simply repairing a machine, you have to grow a whole new organism upon its death, wasting a great deal of energy, even if you consume the dead bio-tech, you won't gain 100% of the energy stored in it back, more like 25%.
They don't have to be either. They could just use machines to do everything like everyone else without breaking their theme in the least. Bugs make their homes out of nonliving material. An all consuming race could easily be attracted to worlds for their large stores of metallic ores rather than the tiny amount of organic materials. You can have your big gribblies and little ones but instead of Flesh Borers they use guns.
Maximus Bitch wrote: The most ridiculous piece of fluff I've come across is that of Imperial censors removing information from a library.
How? By bringing some flamethrowers to the library and burning the books then and there. What?!
They also burn innocent scribes who happen to witness the burning. Double what?!
Can't they just cart the books away? Sometimes I wonder if 40k should be taken seriously or not.
Funny but this is one of my favorites. (Book 2 of the soul drinkers trilogy.)
It demonstrates just how insane imperial organisations have become after 10 millennia of mundanity.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The most annoying fluff nonsense for me is the tyranid narwhal. Supposedly it locks onto a planets gravity and pulls the tyranif fleet towards it. This makes no sense, as the planet will be next to a bloody big star which is considerably more massive.
I think most 40k fluff is just terrible, while there are a few good books, the story overall is garbage that should be played for laughs (and would be entertaining if it still was) but is played totally seriously and is made awful because of that.
Fantasy was far easier to "rewrite" offending chunks (in my additions to the Bretonnian book, they are total good guys, orcs and goblins are a bit smarter and more siller-not really evil at all, elves (wood and high) are generally friendlier. The only 40k fluff I rewrote for a codex (I paste them over offending chunks) was for Sisters and they were far less nuns with guns and just more bad ass women who shoot aliens and hit things.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.
I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.
Eh, to each their own. I find the new fluff to humanizes them too much, I liked Necrons much more as the sort of un-knowable dark force of impending doom, rather than the splintered dynasties of squabbling oligarchs they are now. Too me they just really are too derivative of the Tomb Kings, which cheapens both in my eyes.
Exactly. It's like the Reapers in Mass Effect 1. They are so utterly inhuman so they are really interesting.
In this case, lolharbinger is comparable to the Newcrons I guess.
Oh man don't even get me started on Mass Effect, the things they did to that poor series, I'm still mad about the hackjob ending they did with 3 and it's copy-paste ending of the original DeusEx and subsequent lame effort to polish that turd.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.
I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.
Eh, to each their own. I find the new fluff to humanizes them too much, I liked Necrons much more as the sort of un-knowable dark force of impending doom, rather than the splintered dynasties of squabbling oligarchs they are now. Too me they just really are too derivative of the Tomb Kings, which cheapens both in my eyes.
Exactly. It's like the Reapers in Mass Effect 1. They are so utterly inhuman so they are really interesting.
In this case, lolharbinger is comparable to the Newcrons I guess.
Oh man don't even get me started on Mass Effect, the things they did to that poor series, I'm still mad about the hackjob ending they did with 3 and it's copy-paste ending of the original DeusEx and subsequent lame effort to polish that turd.
Don't forget the complete let-down of the Reapers, who were built up to be some LOLPowerful mega-threat that apparently could be defeated in a conventional battle? What?
Okay,,,? As Furyou Miko pointed out, the grim reaper as a concept was created by the Nightbringer imprinting its image upon the genetic memory of every species save the Orks.
Despite the fact that is very, very stupid. Considering it was said he was the one who put the fear of 'death' into every race Except the Orks, who still feel freakin fear! Heck several Ork players I know despite the Necron codex for trying to shoehorn them in a biological weapon against the Necron alongside the Eldar.
Then there's the fact that Necrons, being metal tyranids never really suffered much of anything that could be considered a 'loss', they always won, it was a very Pyrrhic victory and that the Necrons aren't even hurt..
Mary Sue oldcrons pretty much, still don't like em.
Uh, the original piece of fluff about the Orks being a race of warriors created by the Brainboyz is from 1997. Its hardly something shoehorned in with the newcron shift. Which, by the way, basically boils down to "And then we screwed over the C'tan, too!" tacked onto the end of the Oldcron fluff.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Furyou Miko wrote: Anyone claiming to be a "Trucron" fan who doesn't know that is nothing more than a poseur.
True? Poseur?
Are you a metalhead, Ana ?
I am a non-discriminatory music lover. :p But I'm also a Necron fan, and it really annoys me when people try and make out that the Ward codex was some massive retcon just so they can feel superior because they "liked the old stuff better". The idea of Hipster Necrons really, really grinds my gears for some reason.
Wyzilla wrote:
Vaktathi wrote: Oh man don't even get me started on Mass Effect, the things they did to that poor series, I'm still mad about the hackjob ending they did with 3 and it's copy-paste ending of the original DeusEx and subsequent lame effort to polish that turd.
Don't forget the complete let-down of the Reapers, who were built up to be some LOLPowerful mega-threat that apparently could be defeated in a conventional battle? What?
Well, I kind of liked the fact that for once, the transhumanist option wasn't presented as being downright evil.
Although I'm pretty sure that the conventional battle had the Reapers slaughtering the Council Alliance, since the whole point of the space battle was to buy time for the ground teams to activate the Catalyst.
I like the Newcron fluff. It at least gave players more options for how they want to present their force and gives reasons why Necrons would fight each other. If you love the Oldcron fluff it's still there for you to enjoy.
I REALLY dislike most of the SW fluff, it just tries to be too many separate things, and comes of as a bit fanficy.
They're the most srs berzerker warriors who hunt things down mercylessly! except when they're friendly dudebro vikings.
They're tactical geniuses who chase down foes with the cunning of a pack of wolves! exept when they do stupid dudebroish gak like steal a thunderhawk or abandon their positions to watch the explosions.
I mean, come on.
ALso, people moaning about newcron and preferring 'trucron' really wind me up for some reason. The old stuff wasn't that spectacular tbh, and I love the over-the-top, saturday morning cartoonish villainy of Trazyn and Zandrekh. Makes me smile, and gives me an excuse to use all the really daft and 'cheesy' stuff like CCB with MSS.
Uh, the original piece of fluff about the Orks being a race of warriors created by the Brainboyz is from 1997. Its hardly something shoehorned in with the newcron shift. Which, by the way, basically boils down to "And then we screwed over the C'tan, too!" tacked onto the end of the Oldcron fluff.
That is fine, except then it was shoehorned that the 'ancient ones' created the orks and eldar together to fight the Oldcrons, thus tacking it onto necron fluff, rather then the orks themselves being a specially bred genetic species of the cousin species of 'brainboyz' for tasks.
With the Orks being bred specifically to fight, and yet they and the Eldar weren't destroyed once the Enslaver plague washed over the galaxy and the Necrons didn't end up killing them either..? It just doesn't really add up in their fluff.
Heck, if the Orks were created to fight the Necrons, the spore on death would be absolutely useless considering that the Gauss Flayers stripped the flesh of a being down to nothing, there wouldn't BE anything left to spread, and the C'tan or Necrons would have identified it after a few battles and figured out how to purge them even if they didn't.
The main benefit of bio-tech is its ability to self-repair, subsist off raw materials, and procreate. For example, there is yet to exist the motor that can match the longevity of our heart, running non-stop for about 70 or more years. Even things like artificial hearts and joint replacements today still have a lifespan far shorter than the natural version (joint replacements for example last about 10-15 years before needing replacement). Also life has proven more capable than human technology in some extreme conditions such as in the radioactive aftermath of Chernobyl where some species of fungus and bacteria have been found to live in and thrive in areas where the radiation is intense enough to be lethal to humans and enough to incapacitate most robots. While the idea of Von Neumann machines exists IRL, they do not appear to widely exist in 40K except possibly as Necron scarabs.
All the other technological races of 40K, such as humans, Tau, Orks, Dark Eldar, even Craftworld Eldar, are all to varying degrees reliant on refined and processed materials in order to wage war. Orks may improvise a lot but they are ultimately dependent on either mines and refineries to process raw ores or an existing supply of already processed material (i.e. scrap) to drive their war machine. Even the Craftworld Eldar are still reliant to some smaller degree on outside materials despite a lot of their psychoplastics being congealed warp energy. All this translates into some form of supply line and logistics infrastructure necessary to maintain their war economies. A Tyranid war organism is born with all it will ever need to fight whereas these other races need to be supplied with their processed materials in the form of weapons and ammunition in order to fight at peak effectiveness.
It also means that much of the uninhabited wilderness of a life bearing planet is of no strategic value to them, whereas these wildernesses with their flora and fauna are of value to Tyranids. Tyranids can and have been shown in GW fluff to attack these "useless" areas and then use the consumed biomass of these areas to swell their numbers even further to overwhelm the defenders. The latest example of this is in the BL Valedor warzone based novel, The Last Days of Ector.
Wyzilla wrote:Don't forget the complete let-down of the Reapers, who were built up to be some LOLPowerful mega-threat that apparently could be defeated in a conventional battle? What?
Although I'm pretty sure that the conventional battle had the Reapers slaughtering the Council Alliance, since the whole point of the space battle was to buy time for the ground teams to activate the Catalyst.
True. The Reapers destroy the fleet if the Catalyst isn't used, regardless of war assets.
Wyzilla wrote:Don't forget the complete let-down of the Reapers, who were built up to be some LOLPowerful mega-threat that apparently could be defeated in a conventional battle? What?
Although I'm pretty sure that the conventional battle had the Reapers slaughtering the Council Alliance, since the whole point of the space battle was to buy time for the ground teams to activate the Catalyst.
True. The Reapers destroy the fleet if the Catalyst isn't used, regardless of war assets.
It's still disappointing. Look at the carnage Sovereign caused alone (Holding off an entire Alliance fleet), and now you have an entire fleet of Sovereign-class Reaper capital ships.
...Speaking of Mass Effect, I do wonder if Peregrine, Swastakowey and the other IGhammer-propagators who consider the fantasy-in-space aspect of 40K stupid would like a Mass Effect miniature game. There's melee in that game, and so on, but at least even the toughest of alien infantry survives only a few seconds of assault rifle fire and bosses at least have shields and barriers to explain their toughness.
Just talking about the setting, the bad ME3 lore would probably drive them off anyway, and my hopes for ME4 are not very high.
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.
I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.
Eh, to each their own. I find the new fluff to humanizes them too much, I liked Necrons much more as the sort of un-knowable dark force of impending doom, rather than the splintered dynasties of squabbling oligarchs they are now. Too me they just really are too derivative of the Tomb Kings, which cheapens both in my eyes.
Exactly. It's like the Reapers in Mass Effect 1. They are so utterly inhuman so they are really interesting.
In this case, lolharbinger is comparable to the Newcrons I guess.
But their weren't inhuman. They were empty. So empty that they needed to introduce the CTan to give the army SOMETHING. The issue with that approach though was that they already abandoned the programed Terminator concept by doing so. At least now, there are opportunities for both mindlessness and something more if a person wants it. The original fluff can still be represented within the new.
Ashiraya wrote: It's still disappointing. Look at the carnage Sovereign caused alone (Holding off an entire Alliance fleet), and now you have an entire fleet of Sovereign-class Reaper capital ships.
Hmmm? Not sure I understand what you're getting at. You didn't like that the Reapers had such an overwhelming advantage, and couldn't be beaten in a conventional space battle?
Ashiraya wrote: It's still disappointing. Look at the carnage Sovereign caused alone (Holding off an entire Alliance fleet), and now you have an entire fleet of Sovereign-class Reaper capital ships.
Hmmm? Not sure I understand what you're getting at. You didn't like that the Reapers had such an overwhelming advantage, and couldn't be beaten in a conventional space battle?
No, I found it illogical that these fleets were capable of holding off the Reaper fleets in ME3, despite the fact that they should have been annihilated in minutes.
Makes for a better story, probably, but it's still plot armour (Or just a ME1>ME3 nerf of the Reapers' capabilities)
Furyou Miko wrote: Anyone claiming to be a "Trucron" fan who doesn't know that is nothing more than a poseur.
True? Poseur?
Are you a metalhead, Ana ?
I am a non-discriminatory music lover. :p But I'm also a Necron fan, and it really annoys me when people try and make out that the Ward codex was some massive retcon just so they can feel superior because they "liked the old stuff better". The idea of Hipster Necrons really, really grinds my gears for some reason.
Oh. Because that “true vs poseur” terminology is strong in metal .
I do not get this whole “bio-tech is not efficient”. We are talking alien biology anyway. Non-bio ships are going to consume fuel like bio-ships are going to consume nutriments. And it is not like the rest of the 40k tech was at any point realistic.
On the point of «bio-tech» vs machines, I think that many people underestimate the work it requires to create anything artificially. Let's see what it requires (on top of my head) to make spaceship like those the imperium uses. First, you will need to find massive deposite of iron, copper, brass, silice and other minerals of the sort. Since these minerals are generally found in volcanic rock, you will need to extract it with heavy machinery if you want enough of those to be useful. To be able to have such sort of massive exploitation, it will require infrastructures of planetary scale. Then, you will have to have immense smelter to refine that metal and even more massive source of energy to power your smelters. Then, you will have to transport all those material on massive space stations in orbit to be assemble. It would take thousands of workers (or drones) to accommplish such a feat in a few years. Then there is all the requirements to build a plasma reactor and maintain it correctly (basically a very bib and complex nuclear reactor). A living ship on the other side needs sperm and ovule and you are good to go. That's if it reproduce sexually. It will require food just like a mechanical ship is going to require fuel for itself and those it carry and maintain it. The bioship will heal and grow has needed. If a creature of such size was possible and such a role (its not and that's the main reason why it doesn't make sense) it would probably be very efficient even compared to mechanical ship. That' my two cents. Feel free to argue against me!
I'm not sure if this was tongue in cheek. If it was all the better, but if not this is like naming your Chapter Master More-powerful-than-wolverine-superman-and-batman-combined-and-throw-in-freekazoid-for-good-measure.
I'm not sure if this was tongue in cheek. If it was all the better, but if not this is like naming your Chapter Master More-powerful-than-wolverine-superman-and-batman-combined-and-throw-in-freekazoid-for-good-measure.
He was back in rogue trader, where there was plenty of parody.
epronovost wrote: On the point of «bio-tech» vs machines, I think that many people underestimate the work it requires to create anything artificially. Let's see what it requires (on top of my head) to make spaceship like those the imperium uses. First, you will need to find massive deposite of iron, copper, brass, silice and other minerals of the sort. Since these minerals are generally found in volcanic rock, you will need to extract it with heavy machinery if you want enough of those to be useful. To be able to have such sort of massive exploitation, it will require infrastructures of planetary scale. Then, you will have to have immense smelter to refine that metal and even more massive source of energy to power your smelters. Then, you will have to transport all those material on massive space stations in orbit to be assemble. It would take thousands of workers (or drones) to accommplish such a feat in a few years. Then there is all the requirements to build a plasma reactor and maintain it correctly (basically a very bib and complex nuclear reactor). A living ship on the other side needs sperm and ovule and you are good to go. That's if it reproduce sexually. It will require food just like a mechanical ship is going to require fuel for itself and those it carry and maintain it. The bioship will heal and grow has needed. If a creature of such size was possible and such a role (its not and that's the main reason why it doesn't make sense) it would probably be very efficient even compared to mechanical ship. That' my two cents. Feel free to argue against me!
The point that I am trying to make is that to make a bioship of equivalent tonnage to a Imperial ship would be far more costlier in resources. Machines don't need to be fed constant energy just to exist. Machines are far more energy effecient than biotech. Machines can be created in any Star System that had rocky planets not just ones that host life sustaining ones. Machines won't turn on themselves as soon as they lose contact with their masters. Machines can simply be stored for later use rather than being broken down. Even if you do break them down you don't lose nearly as much energy as you do by breaking down biomatter.
Also, biological technology suffers from all the problems you just listed (Mining, transportation and crafting) but it's much, much more wasteful. Really, the Tyranids would be better off making kill bots rather than Hormagaunts. They could make much more kill bots and have a far better chance of success when it comes to invading a galaxy.
When machines and the creations of civilization are left alone there are two things that happen. The machines deteriorate and nature reclaims them.
Without constant attention most of our buildings, roads, and machines are indistinguishable from nature within a few decades. Life on the other hand is self-sustaining, it is efficient because organisms are driven to survive. Think of people as very complicated biological machines, every organ carefully crafted over millions of years of evolution, trillions of cells and bacterium in the body helping to digest food, prevent infection...nature developed whales long before humans ever created ships, and I'm guessing that whales will still be around long after all of our ships have rusted out.
TheSilo wrote: When machines and the creations of civilization are left alone there are two things that happen. The machines deteriorate and nature reclaims them.
Without constant attention most of our buildings, roads, and machines are indistinguishable from nature within a few decades. Life on the other hand is self-sustaining, it is efficient because organisms are driven to survive. Think of people as very complicated biological machines, every organ carefully crafted over millions of years of evolution, trillions of cells and bacterium in the body helping to digest food, prevent infection...nature developed whales long before humans ever created ships, and I'm guessing that whales will still be around long after all of our ships have rusted out.
Which you still don't seem to realize has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency? Machines are superior, it's an undeniable fact or how thermodynamics work, because living organisms need more energy to sustain than a machine and are far less efficient. This is also ignoring that the Tyranids are fething stupid to constantly devour organic tissue like they do right now in 40, it's not energy efficient and means they're always in a constant neck and neck race between starvation and life. Intelligently designed Tyranids that weren't seemingly designed by a child right after they saw ALIEN would feed off nuclear power or generate it themselves. Fusion power is as close to free as you get in the universe, and would ensure the Nids were never lacking any energy, ever. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, it'd take billions of years until they ran out.
Which you still don't seem to realize has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency? Machines are superior, it's an undeniable fact or how thermodynamics work, because living organisms need more energy to sustain than a machine and are far less efficient. This is also ignoring that the Tyranids are fething stupid to constantly devour organic tissue like they do right now in 40, it's not energy efficient and means they're always in a constant neck and neck race between starvation and life. Intelligently designed Tyranids that weren't seemingly designed by a child right after they saw ALIEN would feed off nuclear power or generate it themselves. Fusion power is as close to free as you get in the universe, and would ensure the Nids were never lacking any energy, ever. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, it'd take billions of years until they ran out.
What you don't seem to get is that Tyranids aren't designed. They are evolved. Yes, machines are more efficient than living organisms. Notice how life on this planet hasn't evolved to be machines, despite it being more efficient?
While there are intelligent tyranids, it doesn't appear to be a long-term evolutionary benefit for all of them--just like here on earth. Locusts and sharks and beetles and amoebas get along just fine without much of it, thank you.
Things don't evolve to be 'the best'. They evolve to be good enough. The tyranid strategy is good enough to allow their 'DNA' (or whatever they have in place of it) to continue to multiply and survive. Sharks have been around quite some time, and still aren't perfect. But enough of them survive to reproduce (for the most part). It would be more efficient for them to be internally powered by fusion reactors, but that hasn't happened in millions of years. There's just no evidence, anywhere, that the tyranid ecosystem is constructed by some intelligence to be particularly efficient. In fact, it's BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS that efficiency isn't the goal (consuming all the sustainable biomass on a planet isn't terribly clever). The tyranid strategy appears to be rampant reproduction and a constant wave of growth/invasion. There's no evidence whatsoever that the tyranids are intending some sort of long term inhabitation of the planets/systems that they infect. The entire theme behind tyranids is diametrically opposed to efficiency. They are conspicuous consumption made manifest. You might as well point out that if the orks would stop fighting each other and cooperate they would be a lot more successful.
If there was some suggestion that the Tyranids were designed to inhabit ecosystems for a long period of time, I would agree with you, but there isn't. Who knows, maybe they were designed to wipe out life so a subsequent robot race could come in and live on nice, quiet planets.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Oh. Because that “true vs poseur” terminology is strong in metal .
Nah, I think it's just that Metal is often very, very British.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:That is fine, except then it was shoehorned that the 'ancient ones' created the orks and eldar together to fight the Oldcrons, thus tacking it onto necron fluff, rather then the orks themselves being a specially bred genetic species of the cousin species of 'brainboyz' for tasks.
With the Orks being bred specifically to fight, and yet they and the Eldar weren't destroyed once the Enslaver plague washed over the galaxy and the Necrons didn't end up killing them either..? It just doesn't really add up in their fluff.
Heck, if the Orks were created to fight the Necrons, the spore on death would be absolutely useless considering that the Gauss Flayers stripped the flesh of a being down to nothing, there wouldn't BE anything left to spread, and the C'tan or Necrons would have identified it after a few battles and figured out how to purge them even if they didn't.
Actually, its because that was part of the Gorkamorka fluff, which was all built around introducing the Necrons. :p
The Brainboyz concept was introduced in an extract from a 'scientific journal'. Around the same time, the Diggas were introduced to Gorka Morka as a bunch of AdMech explorators who were shipwrecked on Angelis and moved into their dig site under the pyramids, where they encountered active Necrons. The Necrons for whatever reason allowed the Explorators to live in their tomb complex, and in fact actively defended them against the Orks, although they never left the complex.
This was back in the late 90s, when the design team actually put a lot of thought and work into their creations and additions to the game.
Furyou Miko wrote: Nah, I think it's just that Metal is often very, very British.
British? But Blind Guardian, Rhapsody of Fire, Gojira, Iced Earth, usw!
Wyzilla wrote: Machines are superior, it's an undeniable fact or how thermodynamics work, because living organisms need more energy to sustain than a machine and are far less efficient.
I disagree, and I do not see the link between that and thermodynamics.
While there is a lot of bad fluff out there, to me the bit about the Imperium being stronger than ever in M41 is the worst. It's a perversion of the Warhammer 40,000 fluff and it is proof enough for me that the guy who writes the fluff needs to be slapped in the face with every 40K fluff book in existence and then fired.
i like almost all of the fluff, i'm very easy to please that way. i can even find some time for CS Goto - The Trial Of The Mantis Warriors is a good story even if the rest of his stuff is crap. But the thing that I do hate is most of the Space Wolves fluff. It's hammy even by 40k standards. i do like the HH Space Wolves books though, and the novel Battle For The Fang. So even then I'm not completely opposed to it.
TheSilo wrote: When machines and the creations of civilization are left alone there are two things that happen. The machines deteriorate and nature reclaims them.
Without constant attention most of our buildings, roads, and machines are indistinguishable from nature within a few decades. Life on the other hand is self-sustaining, it is efficient because organisms are driven to survive. Think of people as very complicated biological machines, every organ carefully crafted over millions of years of evolution, trillions of cells and bacterium in the body helping to digest food, prevent infection...nature developed whales long before humans ever created ships, and I'm guessing that whales will still be around long after all of our ships have rusted out.
Which you still don't seem to realize has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency? Machines are superior, it's an undeniable fact or how thermodynamics work, because living organisms need more energy to sustain than a machine and are far less efficient. This is also ignoring that the Tyranids are fething stupid to constantly devour organic tissue like they do right now in 40, it's not energy efficient and means they're always in a constant neck and neck race between starvation and life. Intelligently designed Tyranids that weren't seemingly designed by a child right after they saw ALIEN would feed off nuclear power or generate it themselves. Fusion power is as close to free as you get in the universe, and would ensure the Nids were never lacking any energy, ever. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, it'd take billions of years until they ran out.
One reason that biotech is so inefficient is that each cell requires a certain temperature level to work efficiently, and given that tyranid biotech has to work in space, it will not always be getting the energy bonus of being on a planet. It will have to expend massive amounts of energy keeping warm. Non-biological technology only needs to keep warm certain relevant areas, not the entire structure.
Despite the fact that is very, very stupid. Considering it was said he was the one who put the fear of 'death' into every race Except the Orks, who still feel freakin fear! Heck several Ork players I know despite the Necron codex for trying to shoehorn them in a biological weapon against the Necron alongside the Eldar.
Blame that on inconsistency of fluff. Sometimes Orks are portrayed as utterly fearless in the face of death to the point of foolishness (Deff Skwadron, for example), and other times they're cowardly when not outnumbering their enemy a hundred to one.
I don't care about the feelings of buttmad Ork players.
Then there's the fact that Necrons, being metal tyranids never really suffered much of anything that could be considered a 'loss', they always won, it was a very Pyrrhic victory and that the Necrons aren't even hurt..
Mary Sue oldcrons pretty much, still don't like em.
They still barely ever suffer anything that could be resembled a loss.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheCustomLime wrote: I like the Newcron fluff. It at least gave players more options for how they want to present their force and gives reasons why Necrons would fight each other. If you love the Oldcron fluff it's still there for you to enjoy.
So yeah, more options is better.
More options is always better? No, it can make the faction aimless, and oftentimes stupid. The Space Wolves have the same problem. Too many different portrayals of the same faction.
"It's still there for you to enjoy" lol, yeah, in like a paragraph. A pretty huge chunk of the new fluff is about how the newcrons are metal men with feelings. Feelings that can be broken.
Making the Necrons a "sympathetic" faction was a big mistake. As was making most of the other content focused around them being Silver Age comic book villains.
If you really don't like the Newcron fluff you can just eschew it and go with the Oldcron fluff. I understand that some people may have preferred that the faction remain mysterious, unfeeling horrors as a whole but others would prefer robots with motivations they can identify with. Better yet, they gave you the option of going either way.
The difference between Newcron/Oldcron is that both can coexist while the contradicting portrayals of Space Wolves cannot.
They still barely ever suffer anything that could be resembled a loss.
I dunno, Sicarius took down a Transcendent C'tan on his self and people still complain to this day from that warzone.
But at least they can lose, before it was it doesn't even matter if you damaged the tomb world, they'd just go to any tomb world across the galaxy. Now things can mess up, or if it's not the right dynasty they can't just teleport in, one of the major Necron Leaders is severely inconvenienced by Orks, and Altioc is mentioned to have caused an intentional flayer curse across a dynasty to cause it hell.
remain mysterious, unfeeling horrors
Not really mysterious considering we knew everything in general about them, and the C'tan that controlled them, we even knew their motivation towards killing everything to try and eventually set up a web of Pylons that could shut the warp off completely.
Selym wrote: One reason that biotech is so inefficient is that each cell requires a certain temperature level to work efficiently
You mean those from earth. Not necessarily the fact for tyranid. Remember, those are made of handwavium, like every tech in 40k.
Selym wrote: and given that tyranid biotech has to work in space, it will not always be getting the energy bonus of being on a planet. It will have to expend massive amounts of energy keeping warm.
Wait, what, why?
I never heard that keeping the temperature to reasonable level was a big energy expense in flight in space. The organism that are going to travel directly in space could just have a very good thermal shell. But do they even need that? I mean space is full of nothing, and therefore has a very, very low thermal inertia, so would things cool off that quick in space?
Furyou Miko wrote: Pfft, you don't have to be from England to be British.
All it takes is an innate sense of entitled superiority.
And, judging by a friend of mine, a wierd semi-erotic fascination wit the lengfield bolt action rigel, which can supposedly be used as a sniper rifle, a carbine, a shotgun, and a machine gun. Bolt action machine gun
Furyou Miko wrote: Pfft, you don't have to be from England to be British.
All it takes is an innate sense of entitled superiority.
I'm entitled and superior, and I'm from England. Therefore I'm more entitled and superior than your alleged non-english, British people...... and therefore more British.
I understand GW is painting Space Marines as the 'good guys' and pushing them out to be the 'few against many' kind of dudes but it really gets tiring.
I'd like to change my answer to IH fluff changes. It went from independent SM clans with strong ties to Mars to another generic space marine/codex compliant chapter.
I kind of wish that GW would do more to make each chapter feel more like it's own force instead of a different paint scheme.
TheCustomLime wrote: If you really don't like the Newcron fluff you can just eschew it and go with the Oldcron fluff. I understand that some people may have preferred that the faction remain mysterious, unfeeling horrors as a whole but others would prefer robots with motivations they can identify with. Better yet, they gave you the option of going either way.
The difference between Newcron/Oldcron is that both can coexist while the contradicting portrayals of Space Wolves cannot.
Oh well I'd prefer the Grey Knights be a cabal of Slaaneshi Marines who rape Eldar children in mass orgy sacrifices. I mean really, all Grey Knights are rigidly determined and strong-willed individuals who live under an iron-clad code of honor, but that's boring, I want to make the Grey Knights a fractured group of varying individuals and allow room for, indeed, Slaaneshi Grey Knight pedophiles. I guess that justifies rewriting all of the fluff in favor of this want, but I'll leave a short blurb that says that there's this one small company of Grey Knights who act like the old Grey Knights do somewhere in the codex. All for the sake of variety.
I dunno, Sicarius took down a Transcendent C'tan on his self and people still complain to this day from that warzone.
They've almost always lost in Black Library against the protagonists. Or did you forget that Uriel Ventris scared the Nightbringer away in the first Ultramarines book?
In actual codices though? They have a few losses sure. But they also do silly gak like conquer a hundred worlds in what was it? Three months or less? A rate of conquest that would make Macharius green with envy. IIRC they were Imperial worlds too.
TheCustomLime wrote: If you really don't like the Newcron fluff you can just eschew it and go with the Oldcron fluff. I understand that some people may have preferred that the faction remain mysterious, unfeeling horrors as a whole but others would prefer robots with motivations they can identify with. Better yet, they gave you the option of going either way.
The difference between Newcron/Oldcron is that both can coexist while the contradicting portrayals of Space Wolves cannot.
Oh well I'd prefer the Grey Knights be a cabal of Slaaneshi Marines who rape Eldar children in mass orgy sacrifices. I mean really, all Grey Knights are rigidly determined and strong-willed individuals who live under an iron-clad code of honor, but that's boring, I want to make the Grey Knights a fractured group of varying individuals and allow room for, indeed, Slaaneshi Grey Knight pedophiles. I guess that justifies rewriting all of the fluff in favor of this want, but I'll leave a short blurb that says that there's this one small company of Grey Knights who act like the old Grey Knights do somewhere in the codex. All for the sake of variety.
Draigo broke when he saw Slaanesh's appearance of a small boy. There may be something there.
TheCustomLime wrote: If you really don't like the Newcron fluff you can just eschew it and go with the Oldcron fluff. I understand that some people may have preferred that the faction remain mysterious, unfeeling horrors as a whole but others would prefer robots with motivations they can identify with. Better yet, they gave you the option of going either way.
The difference between Newcron/Oldcron is that both can coexist while the contradicting portrayals of Space Wolves cannot.
Oh well I'd prefer the Grey Knights be a cabal of Slaaneshi Marines who rape Eldar children in mass orgy sacrifices. I mean really, all Grey Knights are rigidly determined and strong-willed individuals who live under an iron-clad code of honor, but that's boring, I want to make the Grey Knights a fractured group of varying individuals and allow room for, indeed, Slaaneshi Grey Knight pedophiles. I guess that justifies rewriting all of the fluff in favor of this want, but I'll leave a short blurb that says that there's this one small company of Grey Knights who act like the old Grey Knights do somewhere in the codex. All for the sake of variety.
If the Necron's main theme was that they were an unfeeling and unthinking army of robots then you would have a point. As far as I can tell, their role in 40k as the guys with the "More Advanced Tech than anyone else" hat remains despite giving their higher ups a face and a name.
Brometheus wrote: I think the prologue in the Ultramarines Omnibus is pretty awful. Can we pretend that it never happened?
If I want to watch Rambo, I'd turn on the damn tv and watch Rambo
I have not read this omnibus, but is it really talking about PTSD and reintegrating into society after the war ? Or did you mean Rambo 2/3 “one man army” ?
My bet is on Rambo 2/3.
If the Necron's main theme was that they were an unfeeling and unthinking army of robots then you would have a point. As far as I can tell, their role in 40k as the guys with the "More Advanced Tech than anyone else" hat remains despite giving their higher ups a face and a name.
Well let's be clear about something here: That was their point. The "more advanced tech than anyone else" aspect was still true then, but it was given far less page-time than the grimdark, cosmic horror story aspect, nor did it get as much page-time as their coldly robotic presentation. Which of course tied into the advanced tech aspect you mentioned.
Now the alien cosmic horror aspect is gone. Now their ranks are filled with silly, delightfully quirky supervillains, with only like, two Necron characters (Imotekh and Szeras) having any of the oldcron feel. Now they wear silly, garish lolEgyptian outfits instead of the more subdued aesthetic with subtle implications of an Egyptian influence over their design.
Their higher ups having a face and a name? Ah, so we go back to this criticism that I've never made, considering the Necron leaders have always had personalities. While they were never so stupid and cartoonish as some of the robots with feelings you'll find in the newcron codex, they had a level of independence considerably greater than the Warriors, and the lack of focus on that was a big flaw with the third edition, and focusing more on the Necrons themselves is just fine. But the way they did that revamped everything about the faction's feel and presentation. They're not Necrons anymore. They're silly robots with funny hats and goofy character quirks who bombastically blare their orders along the battlefield. Even though part of the oldcrons appeal was how silent they were during battle, the only sound being the blare of their gauss weaponry. It made them intimidating, unsettling. Now they're just like any other faction.
I think the new fluff sucks, by and large. But if people like it? Hey man, that's fine, I might try to debate you on the topic but even I don't think the newcron codex, in of itself, is truly terrible. Just please don't insult my rather considerable intelligence by even suggesting the newcrons aren't a vast departure from what was presented in the third edition codex. They are.
Hahaha no I just don't like how "I'mma kick errrrrrybody in the face with my big boot and shoot errrrrrrrrrrrbody with my bolter real quick" was like 3 pages.
If the Necron's main theme was that they were an unfeeling and unthinking army of robots then you would have a point. As far as I can tell, their role in 40k as the guys with the "More Advanced Tech than anyone else" hat remains despite giving their higher ups a face and a name.
Well let's be clear about something here: That was their point. The "more advanced tech than anyone else" aspect was still true then, but it was given far less page-time than the grimdark, cosmic horror story aspect, nor did it get as much page-time as their coldly robotic presentation. Which of course tied into the advanced tech aspect you mentioned.
Now the alien cosmic horror aspect is gone. Now their ranks are filled with silly, delightfully quirky supervillains, with only like, two Necron characters (Imotekh and Szeras) having any of the oldcron feel. Now they wear silly, garish lolEgyptian outfits instead of the more subdued aesthetic with subtle implications of an Egyptian influence over their design.
Their higher ups having a face and a name? Ah, so we go back to this criticism that I've never made, considering the Necron leaders have always had personalities. While they were never so stupid and cartoonish as some of the robots with feelings you'll find in the newcron codex, they had a level of independence considerably greater than the Warriors, and the lack of focus on that was a big flaw with the third edition, and focusing more on the Necrons themselves is just fine. But the way they did that revamped everything about the faction's feel and presentation. They're not Necrons anymore. They're silly robots with funny hats and goofy character quirks who bombastically blare their orders along the battlefield. Even though part of the oldcrons appeal was how silent they were during battle, the only sound being the blare of their gauss weaponry. It made them intimidating, unsettling. Now they're just like any other faction.
I think the new fluff sucks, by and large. But if people like it? Hey man, that's fine, I might try to debate you on the topic but even I don't think the newcron codex, in of itself, is truly terrible. Just please don't insult my rather considerable intelligence by even suggesting the newcrons aren't a vast departure from what was presented in the third edition codex. They are.
I never suggested as much. The new Necron lore may be very different from the old but it's not a complete 180 like the Chaos Grey Knights example. They're still robots with fancy guns that want to murder things and that is and has been their "thing" like purging Chaos is the Grey Knight's "thing". Being cosmic horrors was the Tyranid's thing hence the sentiment that Oldcrons were metal Tyranids but if you feel that was an important part of the Necron lore then fair enough. You certainly are alone and I can see where you are coming from. I just disagree.
As for the leaders, my understanding of old Necron lore was that none of them had any personality to speak of and people liked it that way. If the major change with the leaders was to make them more cartoony then, yeah, that is pretty stupid.
So is the Celestial Orrery, the Fall of Orpheus, that infamous Blood Angel-Necron Alliance, their overdone Egyptian theme you mentioned and... okay, maybe you have a point.
PhillyT wrote: The Crimson Fist fluff is stupid for one reason: they had to have the Crimson Fist's own missile system be the reason they were put in a bad position by the invading orks. They couldn't actually have the orks get one over on a chapter, no, they had to put themselves in that poor position.
I don't know, the fact that the Orks took their missile system and managed to use it to screw them over is pretty good for the orks.
The orks tried to damage the missiles, causing a misfire. In that battle, the only thing the orks really managed was to kill some survivors.
If they caused the misfire then surely it's their fault the Chapter was blown up......
Don't think there was any direct involvement, unless something new has been mentioned
IA: Crimson Fists
The Crimson Fists' fortress-monastery had been destroyed. By infernal chance, a single warhead, launched from the Laculum battery, had faltered on its trajectory, falling from the edge of the stratosphere back towards the ground. One single missile should have proved insignificant to the mighty adamantium walls of the fortress -monastery, but this was not the case. The missile struck an unknown weak point, penetrating deep into the rock upon which the fortress stood.
Its fuse set to burrow through the metres thick armoured hide of a starship before striking the chapter's arsenal. The resulting protecting ordnance capable of crippling a capital vessel, ripping the heart out of the mountain on which the fortress stood. The arsenal, the fortress-monastery of the Crimson Fists, the mountain, and an area half a mile wide were atomised in a heartbeat.
But from Codex Assassins
Codex Assassins:
There are even rumours which implicate the Officio Assassinorum in the downfall of certain Space Marine Chapters - the mysterious loss of the Fire Hawks' fleet in the warp, the unexplained destruction of the Crimson Fists' Chapter fortress on Rynn's World, the disastrous ambush of the Angels of Retribution at Alantor X and several other less well-known incidents have all been laid at the assassins' door.
I never suggested as much. The new Necron lore may be very different from the old but it's not a complete 180 like the Chaos Grey Knights example.
Which if you actually read Grey Knights fluff isn't too odd, it's still a stupid meme propagated by /TG/.
The reality is if the GK can and gain resources to try and fight daemons, they will sacrifice their allies to do so, considering they used to purge Marines that they didn't want knowing about them, alongside entire regiments of IG, it really isn't that off.
Don't know if I've already posted this in the thread, but I'd add the failure Blood Ravens to this list. They're only slightly better than the Soul Drinkers, but are still pretty terrible.
Furyou Miko wrote: Avatars and Battle Sisters, these things exist in 40k fluff for one reason, it seems:
To die in order to show how badass the enemy slaying them is.
Well of course. You aren't badass unlss you can kill human women wearing a suit of power armour. If they didn't kill Sisters by the drove, then they would overwhelm everyone and eventually destroy all serious threats to Mankind (IOW Tyranids, Necrons and Chaos).
Eldar are not included because the Sisters being girls would happily sit down to tea and the two of them would braid each others hair and talk about that Guardsman with the cute butt (you know the one).
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