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Tyranids, hands down.

So-called "biotech" is one of the worst scifi tropes there is, and total bunk. There's no advantage to growing your weapons over making them from cold steel and hard minerals, at least not when you get to any range beyond claws. Living ships that need food is a giant idiocy. Why not use that food to feed your warriors instead? And the whole specialized warrior organism thing to begin with. We humans rule our world because we're generalists - specialization is for insects. What would you rather have, three specialized warriors (claws, little gun, big gun) or three normal hands-equipped humans who can pick up any of those?

The Warriors are the food. The Hive Fleets consume their victorious armies after a planet falls, as well as everything else on the planet that can be consumed, which includes the atmosphere, the oceans, the soil... everything down to the bare bedrock.

 Vaktathi wrote:

PhillyT wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.

I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.

Eh, to each their own. I find the new fluff to humanizes them too much, I liked Necrons much more as the sort of un-knowable dark force of impending doom, rather than the splintered dynasties of squabbling oligarchs they are now. Too me they just really are too derivative of the Tomb Kings, which cheapens both in my eyes.

Exactly. It's like the Reapers in Mass Effect 1. They are so utterly inhuman so they are really interesting.

In this case, lolharbinger is comparable to the Newcrons I guess.

BrianDavion wrote:

 djdutton wrote:
I would have to go with Matt Ward's rendition of GK and the reason I sold the army. From making Purifiers akin to a secret frat house. Everyone wants to get in, but if they go in without the approval of purifiers then they are beaten or as Matt puts it "never seen again." Plus he describes the older librarians teaching the younger ones, but still looking out for possible corruption.

All of this would be fine and good for a normal space marine chapter. Even the dark angels might silence a few of its own members should they learn too much about their secrets. However, this is the Grey Knights, its in the codex as it has been in the last one that Grey Knights (once fully done with procedures) are immune to the temptations of the warp. You dont need to watch over the early librarians because they already proved to be resistant to any kind of chaos. In addition, what kind of secrets do the Purifier have that really require killing a curious grey knight brother? They already know of chaos, of the origins of the horus heresy and they often work with the inquistion so they are used to dealing with secrets.

Personally I think the idea the purifiers are guarding something so secrect even the rank and file grey knights cannot know of it is an intresting one. something another author could take and run with at a later date. I'll give that a pass myself, (I've got a personal pet theory that the thing that's really being guarded is the Terminus decree. which is in my theory, the key to awaken the Emperor)
as for Librarians watching others for signs of chaos corruption, I don't see any issue with this, I see it as more the grey knights aren't being complacent and taking their incorruptability for granted. Complacancy in matters of the soul is proably a HUGE weakness.

Eh...at some point you run into the Dragon Ball Z trap..."to defeat you I must become Super Saiyan" "ah, but I can become Super Saiyan level 2!" "aha but I secretly learned how to become Super Saiyan 3......!"

The Grey Knight's mere existence is already such an incredible secret that they can't even let other Space Marine Chapter Masters know that they exist. At some point, if the information is so dangerous that you can't even trust a Grey Knight with it, it's probably smarter for the purifiers to either let the knowledge die or to compartmentalize it so that no one person knows it all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spetulhu wrote:
Tyranids, hands down.

So-called "biotech" is one of the worst scifi tropes there is, and total bunk. There's no advantage to growing your weapons over making them from cold steel and hard minerals, at least not when you get to any range beyond claws. Living ships that need food is a giant idiocy. Why not use that food to feed your warriors instead? And the whole specialized warrior organism thing to begin with. We humans rule our world because we're generalists - specialization is for insects. What would you rather have, three specialized warriors (claws, little gun, big gun) or three normal hands-equipped humans who can pick up any of those?

Right, but what if you could genetically engineer people to specialize at their work? Specialized warriors, specialized laborers, specialized pilots...

And it's silly to pretend that human technology isn't just like biotech. How long does your computer run once you unplug it? How far will a plane fly without fuel and maintenance? How long can an Imperial warship brave the warp storms without maintenance?

There are plenty of examples of humans relying on biotech, even today. Our ecosystem only works because of incomprehensible amounts of biotech, bacteria eating dead animals, fungi eating the waste, plants absorbing nitrogen, converting CO2 to O2, animals digesting plants, animals digesting animals, animals converting O2 to CO2, etc. We often pretend that we're in control of the planet, but in reality our ecosystem provides quadrillions of dollars of services that allow us to survive (in economics we call this the shadow price). Imagine how difficult it would be for a space ship to provide all of those same services in perpetuity.

The Tyranid biotech is all about efficiency, more efficiently collecting and converting biomass into fuel for its war machine than any other species can collect and convert their resources to fuel their armies.

A biological Spaceship, while neat, costs much, much more energy to produce and maintain than it's mechanical equivalent. Machines are just more energy efficient than biological life.

Fluff I don't like... anything about the Newcrons.

 TheSilo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 djdutton wrote:
I would have to go with Matt Ward's rendition of GK and the reason I sold the army. From making Purifiers akin to a secret frat house. Everyone wants to get in, but if they go in without the approval of purifiers then they are beaten or as Matt puts it "never seen again." Plus he describes the older librarians teaching the younger ones, but still looking out for possible corruption.

All of this would be fine and good for a normal space marine chapter. Even the dark angels might silence a few of its own members should they learn too much about their secrets. However, this is the Grey Knights, its in the codex as it has been in the last one that Grey Knights (once fully done with procedures) are immune to the temptations of the warp. You dont need to watch over the early librarians because they already proved to be resistant to any kind of chaos. In addition, what kind of secrets do the Purifier have that really require killing a curious grey knight brother? They already know of chaos, of the origins of the horus heresy and they often work with the inquistion so they are used to dealing with secrets.

Personally I think the idea the purifiers are guarding something so secrect even the rank and file grey knights cannot know of it is an intresting one. something another author could take and run with at a later date. I'll give that a pass myself, (I've got a personal pet theory that the thing that's really being guarded is the Terminus decree. which is in my theory, the key to awaken the Emperor)
as for Librarians watching others for signs of chaos corruption, I don't see any issue with this, I see it as more the grey knights aren't being complacent and taking their incorruptability for granted. Complacancy in matters of the soul is proably a HUGE weakness.

Eh...at some point you run into the Dragon Ball Z trap..."to defeat you I must become Super Saiyan" "ah, but I can become Super Saiyan level 2!" "aha but I secretly learned how to become Super Saiyan 3......!"

The Grey Knight's mere existence is already such an incredible secret that they can't even let other Space Marine Chapter Masters know that they exist. At some point, if the information is so dangerous that you can't even trust a Grey Knight with it, it's probably smarter for the purifiers to either let the knowledge die or to compartmentalize it so that no one person knows it all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spetulhu wrote:
Tyranids, hands down.

So-called "biotech" is one of the worst scifi tropes there is, and total bunk. There's no advantage to growing your weapons over making them from cold steel and hard minerals, at least not when you get to any range beyond claws. Living ships that need food is a giant idiocy. Why not use that food to feed your warriors instead? And the whole specialized warrior organism thing to begin with. We humans rule our world because we're generalists - specialization is for insects. What would you rather have, three specialized warriors (claws, little gun, big gun) or three normal hands-equipped humans who can pick up any of those?

Right, but what if you could genetically engineer people to specialize at their work? Specialized warriors, specialized laborers, specialized pilots...

And it's silly to pretend that human technology isn't just like biotech. How long does your computer run once you unplug it? How far will a plane fly without fuel and maintenance? How long can an Imperial warship brave the warp storms without maintenance?

There are plenty of examples of humans relying on biotech, even today. Our ecosystem only works because of incomprehensible amounts of biotech, bacteria eating dead animals, fungi eating the waste, plants absorbing nitrogen, converting CO2 to O2, animals digesting plants, animals digesting animals, animals converting O2 to CO2, etc. We often pretend that we're in control of the planet, but in reality our ecosystem provides quadrillions of dollars of services that allow us to survive (in economics we call this the shadow price). Imagine how difficult it would be for a space ship to provide all of those same services in perpetuity.

The Tyranid biotech is all about efficiency, more efficiently collecting and converting biomass into fuel for its war machine than any other species can collect and convert their resources to fuel their armies.

Except your ignoring the entire problem of why machines are better- it's due to thermodynamics/conservation of energy, machines require less energy to maintain than biological versions, and are more energy efficient simply because that's how the universe works. Tyranids are wasting a ridiculous amount of energy by being bio-tech thanks to bio-tech being an incredibly stupid sci fi trope that just doesn't work. You have to constantly supply energy to something biological simply to ensure the cells don't die. You only need to apply energy to a machine either during maintenance or to get the gears grinding, because free energy doesn't exist. Plus there's the problem of cells dying, where instead of simply repairing a machine, you have to grow a whole new organism upon its death, wasting a great deal of energy, even if you consume the dead bio-tech, you won't gain 100% of the energy stored in it back, more like 25%.

Tyranids on all accounts are just stupid.

They don't have to be either. They could just use machines to do everything like everyone else without breaking their theme in the least. Bugs make their homes out of nonliving material. An all consuming race could easily be attracted to worlds for their large stores of metallic ores rather than the tiny amount of organic materials. You can have your big gribblies and little ones but instead of Flesh Borers they use guns.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
The most ridiculous piece of fluff I've come across is that of Imperial censors removing information from a library.

How? By bringing some flamethrowers to the library and burning the books then and there. What?!

They also burn innocent scribes who happen to witness the burning. Double what?!

Can't they just cart the books away? Sometimes I wonder if 40k should be taken seriously or not.

Funny but this is one of my favorites. (Book 2 of the soul drinkers trilogy.)

It demonstrates just how insane imperial organisations have become after 10 millennia of mundanity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The most annoying fluff nonsense for me is the tyranid narwhal. Supposedly it locks onto a planets gravity and pulls the tyranif fleet towards it. This makes no sense, as the planet will be next to a bloody big star which is considerably more massive.

I think most 40k fluff is just terrible, while there are a few good books, the story overall is garbage that should be played for laughs (and would be entertaining if it still was) but is played totally seriously and is made awful because of that.
Fantasy was far easier to "rewrite" offending chunks (in my additions to the Bretonnian book, they are total good guys, orcs and goblins are a bit smarter and more siller-not really evil at all, elves (wood and high) are generally friendlier. The only 40k fluff I rewrote for a codex (I paste them over offending chunks) was for Sisters and they were far less nuns with guns and just more bad ass women who shoot aliens and hit things.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

PhillyT wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.

I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.

Eh, to each their own. I find the new fluff to humanizes them too much, I liked Necrons much more as the sort of un-knowable dark force of impending doom, rather than the splintered dynasties of squabbling oligarchs they are now. Too me they just really are too derivative of the Tomb Kings, which cheapens both in my eyes.

Exactly. It's like the Reapers in Mass Effect 1. They are so utterly inhuman so they are really interesting.

In this case, lolharbinger is comparable to the Newcrons I guess.

Oh man don't even get me started on Mass Effect, the things they did to that poor series, I'm still mad about the hackjob ending they did with 3 and it's copy-paste ending of the original DeusEx and subsequent lame effort to polish that turd.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

PhillyT wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.

I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.

Eh, to each their own. I find the new fluff to humanizes them too much, I liked Necrons much more as the sort of un-knowable dark force of impending doom, rather than the splintered dynasties of squabbling oligarchs they are now. Too me they just really are too derivative of the Tomb Kings, which cheapens both in my eyes.

Exactly. It's like the Reapers in Mass Effect 1. They are so utterly inhuman so they are really interesting.

In this case, lolharbinger is comparable to the Newcrons I guess.

Oh man don't even get me started on Mass Effect, the things they did to that poor series, I'm still mad about the hackjob ending they did with 3 and it's copy-paste ending of the original DeusEx and subsequent lame effort to polish that turd.

Don't forget the complete let-down of the Reapers, who were built up to be some LOLPowerful mega-threat that apparently could be defeated in a conventional battle? What?

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Okay,,,? As Furyou Miko pointed out, the grim reaper as a concept was created by the Nightbringer imprinting its image upon the genetic memory of every species save the Orks.

Despite the fact that is very, very stupid. Considering it was said he was the one who put the fear of 'death' into every race Except the Orks, who still feel freakin fear! Heck several Ork players I know despite the Necron codex for trying to shoehorn them in a biological weapon against the Necron alongside the Eldar.

Then there's the fact that Necrons, being metal tyranids never really suffered much of anything that could be considered a 'loss', they always won, it was a very Pyrrhic victory and that the Necrons aren't even hurt..

Mary Sue oldcrons pretty much, still don't like em.

Uh, the original piece of fluff about the Orks being a race of warriors created by the Brainboyz is from 1997. Its hardly something shoehorned in with the newcron shift. Which, by the way, basically boils down to "And then we screwed over the C'tan, too!" tacked onto the end of the Oldcron fluff.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Anyone claiming to be a "Trucron" fan who doesn't know that is nothing more than a poseur.

True? Poseur?
Are you a metalhead, Ana ?

I am a non-discriminatory music lover. :p But I'm also a Necron fan, and it really annoys me when people try and make out that the Ward codex was some massive retcon just so they can feel superior because they "liked the old stuff better". The idea of Hipster Necrons really, really grinds my gears for some reason.

Wyzilla wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Oh man don't even get me started on Mass Effect, the things they did to that poor series, I'm still mad about the hackjob ending they did with 3 and it's copy-paste ending of the original DeusEx and subsequent lame effort to polish that turd.

Don't forget the complete let-down of the Reapers, who were built up to be some LOLPowerful mega-threat that apparently could be defeated in a conventional battle? What?

Well, I kind of liked the fact that for once, the transhumanist option wasn't presented as being downright evil.

Although I'm pretty sure that the conventional battle had the Reapers slaughtering the Council Alliance, since the whole point of the space battle was to buy time for the ground teams to activate the Catalyst.

I like the Newcron fluff. It at least gave players more options for how they want to present their force and gives reasons why Necrons would fight each other. If you love the Oldcron fluff it's still there for you to enjoy.

So yeah, more options is better.

I REALLY dislike most of the SW fluff, it just tries to be too many separate things, and comes of as a bit fanficy.
They're the most srs berzerker warriors who hunt things down mercylessly! except when they're friendly dudebro vikings.
They're tactical geniuses who chase down foes with the cunning of a pack of wolves! exept when they do stupid dudebroish gak like steal a thunderhawk or abandon their positions to watch the explosions.
I mean, come on.

ALso, people moaning about newcron and preferring 'trucron' really wind me up for some reason. The old stuff wasn't that spectacular tbh, and I love the over-the-top, saturday morning cartoonish villainy of Trazyn and Zandrekh. Makes me smile, and gives me an excuse to use all the really daft and 'cheesy' stuff like CCB with MSS.

Uh, the original piece of fluff about the Orks being a race of warriors created by the Brainboyz is from 1997. Its hardly something shoehorned in with the newcron shift. Which, by the way, basically boils down to "And then we screwed over the C'tan, too!" tacked onto the end of the Oldcron fluff.

That is fine, except then it was shoehorned that the 'ancient ones' created the orks and eldar together to fight the Oldcrons, thus tacking it onto necron fluff, rather then the orks themselves being a specially bred genetic species of the cousin species of 'brainboyz' for tasks.

With the Orks being bred specifically to fight, and yet they and the Eldar weren't destroyed once the Enslaver plague washed over the galaxy and the Necrons didn't end up killing them either..? It just doesn't really add up in their fluff.

Heck, if the Orks were created to fight the Necrons, the spore on death would be absolutely useless considering that the Gauss Flayers stripped the flesh of a being down to nothing, there wouldn't BE anything left to spread, and the C'tan or Necrons would have identified it after a few battles and figured out how to purge them even if they didn't.

The main benefit of bio-tech is its ability to self-repair, subsist off raw materials, and procreate. For example, there is yet to exist the motor that can match the longevity of our heart, running non-stop for about 70 or more years. Even things like artificial hearts and joint replacements today still have a lifespan far shorter than the natural version (joint replacements for example last about 10-15 years before needing replacement). Also life has proven more capable than human technology in some extreme conditions such as in the radioactive aftermath of Chernobyl where some species of fungus and bacteria have been found to live in and thrive in areas where the radiation is intense enough to be lethal to humans and enough to incapacitate most robots. While the idea of Von Neumann machines exists IRL, they do not appear to widely exist in 40K except possibly as Necron scarabs.

All the other technological races of 40K, such as humans, Tau, Orks, Dark Eldar, even Craftworld Eldar, are all to varying degrees reliant on refined and processed materials in order to wage war. Orks may improvise a lot but they are ultimately dependent on either mines and refineries to process raw ores or an existing supply of already processed material (i.e. scrap) to drive their war machine. Even the Craftworld Eldar are still reliant to some smaller degree on outside materials despite a lot of their psychoplastics being congealed warp energy. All this translates into some form of supply line and logistics infrastructure necessary to maintain their war economies. A Tyranid war organism is born with all it will ever need to fight whereas these other races need to be supplied with their processed materials in the form of weapons and ammunition in order to fight at peak effectiveness.

It also means that much of the uninhabited wilderness of a life bearing planet is of no strategic value to them, whereas these wildernesses with their flora and fauna are of value to Tyranids. Tyranids can and have been shown in GW fluff to attack these "useless" areas and then use the consumed biomass of these areas to swell their numbers even further to overwhelm the defenders. The latest example of this is in the BL Valedor warzone based novel, The Last Days of Ector.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:Don't forget the complete let-down of the Reapers, who were built up to be some LOLPowerful mega-threat that apparently could be defeated in a conventional battle? What?

Although I'm pretty sure that the conventional battle had the Reapers slaughtering the Council Alliance, since the whole point of the space battle was to buy time for the ground teams to activate the Catalyst.

True. The Reapers destroy the fleet if the Catalyst isn't used, regardless of war assets.

 Troike wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:Don't forget the complete let-down of the Reapers, who were built up to be some LOLPowerful mega-threat that apparently could be defeated in a conventional battle? What?

Although I'm pretty sure that the conventional battle had the Reapers slaughtering the Council Alliance, since the whole point of the space battle was to buy time for the ground teams to activate the Catalyst.

True. The Reapers destroy the fleet if the Catalyst isn't used, regardless of war assets.

It's still disappointing. Look at the carnage Sovereign caused alone (Holding off an entire Alliance fleet), and now you have an entire fleet of Sovereign-class Reaper capital ships.

...Speaking of Mass Effect, I do wonder if Peregrine, Swastakowey and the other IGhammer-propagators who consider the fantasy-in-space aspect of 40K stupid would like a Mass Effect miniature game. There's melee in that game, and so on, but at least even the toughest of alien infantry survives only a few seconds of assault rifle fire and bosses at least have shields and barriers to explain their toughness.

Just talking about the setting, the bad ME3 lore would probably drive them off anyway, and my hopes for ME4 are not very high.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

PhillyT wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Yeah, the older necrons were much more interesting to me. There was intelligence there, but only amongst the highest echelons, and it was all very shadowy. Now they're just Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAACE.

I have played Necrons since 3rd when they were codex: CTan. Current fluff is much more dynamic and interesting while still having plenty of room for the old fluff.

Eh, to each their own. I find the new fluff to humanizes them too much, I liked Necrons much more as the sort of un-knowable dark force of impending doom, rather than the splintered dynasties of squabbling oligarchs they are now. Too me they just really are too derivative of the Tomb Kings, which cheapens both in my eyes.

Exactly. It's like the Reapers in Mass Effect 1. They are so utterly inhuman so they are really interesting.

In this case, lolharbinger is comparable to the Newcrons I guess.

But their weren't inhuman. They were empty. So empty that they needed to introduce the CTan to give the army SOMETHING. The issue with that approach though was that they already abandoned the programed Terminator concept by doing so. At least now, there are opportunities for both mindlessness and something more if a person wants it. The original fluff can still be represented within the new.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's still disappointing. Look at the carnage Sovereign caused alone (Holding off an entire Alliance fleet), and now you have an entire fleet of Sovereign-class Reaper capital ships.

Hmmm? Not sure I understand what you're getting at. You didn't like that the Reapers had such an overwhelming advantage, and couldn't be beaten in a conventional space battle?

 Troike wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's still disappointing. Look at the carnage Sovereign caused alone (Holding off an entire Alliance fleet), and now you have an entire fleet of Sovereign-class Reaper capital ships.

Hmmm? Not sure I understand what you're getting at. You didn't like that the Reapers had such an overwhelming advantage, and couldn't be beaten in a conventional space battle?

No, I found it illogical that these fleets were capable of holding off the Reaper fleets in ME3, despite the fact that they should have been annihilated in minutes.

Makes for a better story, probably, but it's still plot armour (Or just a ME1>ME3 nerf of the Reapers' capabilities)

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Anyone claiming to be a "Trucron" fan who doesn't know that is nothing more than a poseur.

True? Poseur?
Are you a metalhead, Ana ?

I am a non-discriminatory music lover. :p But I'm also a Necron fan, and it really annoys me when people try and make out that the Ward codex was some massive retcon just so they can feel superior because they "liked the old stuff better". The idea of Hipster Necrons really, really grinds my gears for some reason.

Oh. Because that “true vs poseur” terminology is strong in metal .


I do not get this whole “bio-tech is not efficient”. We are talking alien biology anyway. Non-bio ships are going to consume fuel like bio-ships are going to consume nutriments. And it is not like the rest of the 40k tech was at any point realistic.

On the point of «bio-tech» vs machines, I think that many people underestimate the work it requires to create anything artificially. Let's see what it requires (on top of my head) to make spaceship like those the imperium uses. First, you will need to find massive deposite of iron, copper, brass, silice and other minerals of the sort. Since these minerals are generally found in volcanic rock, you will need to extract it with heavy machinery if you want enough of those to be useful. To be able to have such sort of massive exploitation, it will require infrastructures of planetary scale. Then, you will have to have immense smelter to refine that metal and even more massive source of energy to power your smelters. Then, you will have to transport all those material on massive space stations in orbit to be assemble. It would take thousands of workers (or drones) to accommplish such a feat in a few years. Then there is all the requirements to build a plasma reactor and maintain it correctly (basically a very bib and complex nuclear reactor). A living ship on the other side needs sperm and ovule and you are good to go. That's if it reproduce sexually. It will require food just like a mechanical ship is going to require fuel for itself and those it carry and maintain it. The bioship will heal and grow has needed. If a creature of such size was possible and such a role (its not and that's the main reason why it doesn't make sense) it would probably be very efficient even compared to mechanical ship. That' my two cents. Feel free to argue against me!

inquisitor obiwan sherlock clousseau

I'm not sure if this was tongue in cheek. If it was all the better, but if not this is like naming your Chapter Master More-powerful-than-wolverine-superman-and-batman-combined-and-throw-in-freekazoid-for-good-measure.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
inquisitor obiwan sherlock clousseau

I'm not sure if this was tongue in cheek. If it was all the better, but if not this is like naming your Chapter Master More-powerful-than-wolverine-superman-and-batman-combined-and-throw-in-freekazoid-for-good-measure.

He was back in rogue trader, where there was plenty of parody.

epronovost wrote:
On the point of «bio-tech» vs machines, I think that many people underestimate the work it requires to create anything artificially. Let's see what it requires (on top of my head) to make spaceship like those the imperium uses. First, you will need to find massive deposite of iron, copper, brass, silice and other minerals of the sort. Since these minerals are generally found in volcanic rock, you will need to extract it with heavy machinery if you want enough of those to be useful. To be able to have such sort of massive exploitation, it will require infrastructures of planetary scale. Then, you will have to have immense smelter to refine that metal and even more massive source of energy to power your smelters. Then, you will have to transport all those material on massive space stations in orbit to be assemble. It would take thousands of workers (or drones) to accommplish such a feat in a few years. Then there is all the requirements to build a plasma reactor and maintain it correctly (basically a very bib and complex nuclear reactor). A living ship on the other side needs sperm and ovule and you are good to go. That's if it reproduce sexually. It will require food just like a mechanical ship is going to require fuel for itself and those it carry and maintain it. The bioship will heal and grow has needed. If a creature of such size was possible and such a role (its not and that's the main reason why it doesn't make sense) it would probably be very efficient even compared to mechanical ship. That' my two cents. Feel free to argue against me!

The point that I am trying to make is that to make a bioship of equivalent tonnage to a Imperial ship would be far more costlier in resources. Machines don't need to be fed constant energy just to exist. Machines are far more energy effecient than biotech. Machines can be created in any Star System that had rocky planets not just ones that host life sustaining ones. Machines won't turn on themselves as soon as they lose contact with their masters. Machines can simply be stored for later use rather than being broken down. Even if you do break them down you don't lose nearly as much energy as you do by breaking down biomatter.

Also, biological technology suffers from all the problems you just listed (Mining, transportation and crafting) but it's much, much more wasteful. Really, the Tyranids would be better off making kill bots rather than Hormagaunts. They could make much more kill bots and have a far better chance of success when it comes to invading a galaxy.

What about when the kill bots reach their kill limit?

Personally I like them despite how much sense they make.

When machines and the creations of civilization are left alone there are two things that happen. The machines deteriorate and nature reclaims them.

Without constant attention most of our buildings, roads, and machines are indistinguishable from nature within a few decades. Life on the other hand is self-sustaining, it is efficient because organisms are driven to survive. Think of people as very complicated biological machines, every organ carefully crafted over millions of years of evolution, trillions of cells and bacterium in the body helping to digest food, prevent infection...nature developed whales long before humans ever created ships, and I'm guessing that whales will still be around long after all of our ships have rusted out.

 TheSilo wrote:
When machines and the creations of civilization are left alone there are two things that happen. The machines deteriorate and nature reclaims them.

Without constant attention most of our buildings, roads, and machines are indistinguishable from nature within a few decades. Life on the other hand is self-sustaining, it is efficient because organisms are driven to survive. Think of people as very complicated biological machines, every organ carefully crafted over millions of years of evolution, trillions of cells and bacterium in the body helping to digest food, prevent infection...nature developed whales long before humans ever created ships, and I'm guessing that whales will still be around long after all of our ships have rusted out.

Which you still don't seem to realize has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency? Machines are superior, it's an undeniable fact or how thermodynamics work, because living organisms need more energy to sustain than a machine and are far less efficient. This is also ignoring that the Tyranids are fething stupid to constantly devour organic tissue like they do right now in 40, it's not energy efficient and means they're always in a constant neck and neck race between starvation and life. Intelligently designed Tyranids that weren't seemingly designed by a child right after they saw ALIEN would feed off nuclear power or generate it themselves. Fusion power is as close to free as you get in the universe, and would ensure the Nids were never lacking any energy, ever. Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, it'd take billions of years until they ran out.