Paradigm wrote: Not sure about the 3-bladed saber, seems like it could be rather difficult to use without Vadering one's own arm off, but I'm sure they'll work around it...
Blades are short enough that shouldn't be an issue. I think it's more to protect from a "slide down the opponent's blade and cut an arm off", ala Obi-Wan defeating Grievous in Ep. III.
Rollerball droid is what I can't get past for some reason.
Rest of the trailer has me pretty hyped, but I'm also a bit hesitant at the shaky cam and flashy part with the stormtroopers. If they're just there for the teaser that's all well and good. I'm not a fan of their use in actual film though.
One thing I'm trying to remember is if the snowspeeders on Hoth kicked up snow the way the X-Wings are kicking up the sand on Tatooine. I mean, there are a plethora of ways to explain the difference, but I'm struggling to remember Star Wars repulsor engines actually kicking up debris.
Simply the motion of the air around the moving object would be enough to throw up light debris like sand and snow... was there really a need to question logic such as this?
Finally watched it. And I'm still kinda excited about it. Mostly because I loved the Star Trek movies (and I am a trek nerd) that JJ directed and can't wait to see what he does with a universe he loves.
Flashman wrote: Love this from John Boyega in response to those making negative "storm troopers should all be white" remarks.
John Boyega wrote:
"Thank you for all the love and support! The fan mail and fan art has added to my joy! Isn't it crazy that Star Wars is actually happening? I'm in the movie but as a star wars fan I am very excited. A year is a long time but it will be worth the wait.
To whom it may concern: Get used to it. "
Do people have a problem with him because he's black, or because he isn't Temura Morrison? I've seen Boyega's response to "criticism" of his casting, but I haven't seen any of the actual criticism, so I can't tell if people are being racist (possible, but unlikely given the franchise has the coolest black dude in space ever: Lando) or if they are being anal-retentive obsessive fanboys upset that Boyega isn't Temura Morrison which means he isn't a clone and since storm troopers are descendants of clone troopers, he can't be a storm trooper (far, far more likely given how nerds tend to act).
There's a bit of both, with the racism part potentially being because people can't use their words like proper grown-ups.
It's also worth noting that post-Clone Wars, the Stormtroopers were not purely Clone Troopers. They started taking "mongrels"(read: normal humans) into their ranks.
There was also the whole Spaarti cloning nonsense, where the Empire was taking genetic templates from high performing "mongrels" and fast-cloning them.
Kanluwen wrote: There's a bit of both, with the racism part potentially being because people can't use their words like proper grown-ups.
It's also worth noting that post-Clone Wars, the Stormtroopers were not purely Clone Troopers. They started taking "mongrels"(read: normal humans) into their ranks.
There was also the whole Spaarti cloning nonsense, where the Empire was taking genetic templates from high performing "mongrels" and fast-cloning them.
Why do people insist on bringing up EU information when the EU is no longer remotely canon? Sure, Disney might use it, but for the time being it is pure speculation.
We have no idea what's under Stormtrooper helmets and the only time someone described them physically in the OT was "aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?" That could imply several things, including 1) they're still clones or 2) they have a height requirement. Personally, I'd go with the latter since they were modeled after the SS which originally did have a height requirement.
Grey Templar wrote: Its very silly given that in none of the prequels did we ever see a Stormtrooper take his helmet off.
We never saw stormtroopers in the prequels.
The lack of helmet removal in the OT was apparently very deliberate. There was a scene intended for one of the early Marvel comics that had off duty stormtroopers with their helmets off, that Lucas insisted be removed. No explanation was given at the time, but his story now is that he had always intended for them to be clones.
Not sure how he would have explained the height differences of the original trilogy troopers.
Grey Templar wrote: Its very silly given that in none of the prequels did we ever see a Stormtrooper take his helmet off.
We never saw stormtroopers in the prequels.
The lack of helmet removal in the OT was apparently very deliberate. There was a scene intended for one of the early Marvel comics that had off duty stormtroopers with their helmets off, that Lucas insisted be removed. No explanation was given at the time, but his story now is that he had always intended for them to be clones.
Not sure how he would have explained the height differences of the original trilogy troopers.
Maybe the budget didn't allow for him to cast everyone the same height or it was simply an oversight or possibly not that important?
Grey Templar wrote: Its very silly given that in none of the prequels did we ever see a Stormtrooper take his helmet off.
We never saw stormtroopers in the prequels.
The lack of helmet removal in the OT was apparently very deliberate. There was a scene intended for one of the early Marvel comics that had off duty stormtroopers with their helmets off, that Lucas insisted be removed. No explanation was given at the time, but his story now is that he had always intended for them to be clones.
Not sure how he would have explained the height differences of the original trilogy troopers.
Maybe the budget didn't allow for him to cast everyone the same height or it was simply an oversight or possibly not that important?
No. At the time it was a desire to make the Stormtroopers faceless goons.
Then George decided to make them Clones, and claims to have intended it all along(but thats obviously not true)
Yeah, there's been a few things that have come up since he started on the prequels which Lucas claims were intended all along which are either doubtful or flat out changes.
Like Lucas' insistence that Star Wars was always Anakin's story, and so there were never going to be more than 6 movies, despite him saying in interviews back in the 80s that his aim was for three trilogies...
gorgon wrote: The Luke-Leia relationship is the classic example of George suddenly deciding that he intended something different "all along."
Yes, the originally planned version of Return of the Jedi was actually pretty cool...
Luke does have a sister, but she isn't Leia (presumably axed due to the hassle of introducing another key character).
Han dies at some point (during the escape from Jabba's palace IIRC).
And more importantly, the final battle is set on Kashyyk not Endor i.e. rather than short furry creatures hitting storm troopers over the head with small rocks, you would have had wookies tearing their arms off (or whatever a U certificate would have allowed).
I think it was still Endor. Kashyyk didn't exist yet AFAIK.
The reason for the switch was, as I recall, that they simply couldn't find enough 7'+ people to play wookies. And making that many costumes would have been difficult.
In universe, while having access to a ready supply of excellent slave labor would be a good thing, Kashyyk would have been too high profile of a location to build the Death Star II. So a relatively unknown and uninhabited(by advanced sentients anyway) system would be preferable.
Having Luke's sister still be unknown would have made a nice jumping off point for the next trilogy. Han dying would have been a little lame, and I think would make a Luke-Leia matchup seem forced. Leia and Han were perfect for each other though.
Grey Templar wrote: I think it was still Endor. Kashyyk didn't exist yet AFAIK.
Yes, I stand corrected. Endor was to be populated by wookies not ewoks.
They didn't need lots of tall people to play wookies, they just needed lots of short people to play storm troopers. Any other scenes could have been done with false perspective.
Grey Templar wrote: I think it was still Endor. Kashyyk didn't exist yet AFAIK.
Yes, I stand corrected. Endor was to be populated by wookies not ewoks.
They didn't need lots of tall people to play wookies, they just needed lots of short people to play storm troopers. Any other scenes could have been done with false perspective.
Kanluwen wrote: There's a bit of both, with the racism part potentially being because people can't use their words like proper grown-ups.
It's also worth noting that post-Clone Wars, the Stormtroopers were not purely Clone Troopers. They started taking "mongrels"(read: normal humans) into their ranks.
There was also the whole Spaarti cloning nonsense, where the Empire was taking genetic templates from high performing "mongrels" and fast-cloning them.
Why do people insist on bringing up EU information when the EU is no longer remotely canon? Sure, Disney might use it, but for the time being it is pure speculation.
We have no idea what's under Stormtrooper helmets and the only time someone described them physically in the OT was "aren't you a little short for a Stormtrooper?" That could imply several things, including 1) they're still clones or 2) they have a height requirement. Personally, I'd go with the latter since they were modeled after the SS which originally did have a height requirement.
If you want to completely ignore the EU and use only evidence in both the original and prequel trilogies, I think the biggest argument for Stormtroopers not being clones is that in the OT, none of the officers are clones, and in the PT, outside of the Jedi, a large number of the officers are clones.
Height requirements were common in a lot of different armies during the early 20th century.
The British Army had a minimum of 160 cm during WW1(which was later altered)
As for the Officers we see in the movies, none of those men are Stormtroopers. They're either Army or Navy officers. Of course this assumes they keep some of the minor organizational details from the EU. No reason not to.
Grey Templar wrote: Height requirements were common in a lot of different armies during the early 20th century.
And even earlier than that. The Napoleon height jokes came about because his personal guard were required to be, IIRC, at least 6 ft tall, which make a man of 5'7" look smaller by comparison, despite that being the average height of his time.
I just want this to be a good movie. It is so exhausting trying to remain a fan of the franchise sometimes.
I really wish they would have gone fresh and jumped back in time to the first Jedi-Sith war and gotten away from all the issues with 'modern' Starwars. I know it's not canon anymore, but I'd have loved to see early Jedi first deploying the distant ancestors of Lightsabers - like with backpack power supplies and crap against Sith Alchemy.
Start fresh, y'know?
Or failing that I am really looking forward to movies that don't have Jedi at all. It's a whole galaxy, I want to see stories that do not have Jedi/Sith protagonists. There is so much more there than waving around a lightsaber. I'd love to see a straight up Western set on Tatooine - so long as it has nothing to do with the Skywalkers and their baggage - or some other genre of movie set in the Starwars universe.
Grey Templar wrote: Height requirements were common in a lot of different armies during the early 20th century.
And even earlier than that. The Napoleon height jokes came about because his personal guard were required to be, IIRC, at least 6 ft tall, which make a man of 5'7" look smaller by comparison, despite that being the average height of his time.
Plus the french foot was still in use, which was different from the english foot the US uses today. He was only like 5' in french feet, but converted to english it was 5'7. Apparently the french have really long feet.
Grey Templar wrote: Height requirements were common in a lot of different armies during the early 20th century.
The British Army had a minimum of 160 cm during WW1(which was later altered)
As for the Officers we see in the movies, none of those men are Stormtroopers. They're either Army or Navy officers. Of course this assumes they keep some of the minor organizational details from the EU. No reason not to.
That's exactly my point though. A lot of the army officers in the PT are clones. Many of the pilots (who would also be officers) are clones in the PT as well, while we know that there are non-clone pilots in the Empire (for example Biggs and everyone else who went to the academy).
Paradigm wrote: Know what? I'd trade in half a dozen of these new post-ROTJ movies for just one set in the Old Republic. I want to see armies of Jedi (and later Sith), I want space battles that make Endor look like a playground scrap, I want to see everything that makes the setting of the earlier films fall into place.
Isn't that precisely what made the prequels such terrible drek? I mean, the execution didn't help, but SW never felt like it needs, or in fact has any place, for the extravaganza Lucas inserted into the prequels.
No what killed the prequels was Lucas thinking itd be entertaining to take a CNN senate live broadcast and add the odd light saber into it. Because how do you make massive space battles and explosions and death on a massive scale boring? By making most of it about the politicians, that's how
I can not stop watching this incredible piece of art. Loved every second they showed up. Feels so Star Warsy. I see the falcon still hasn't had its radar repaired which it lost in the Death Star attack, unless that squareish rader is replacing it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also I think that dude at the start isn't wearing storm trooper armour, just similar looking armour.
so pumped for the movie
Automatically Appended Next Post: See? looks different
Very interesting theory, Rippy. I must admit, you had me going back and pausing to see if I could find a shot of the Stormtroopers' armor and the pieces on our intrepid desert fugitive- but I couldn't. The chest shots of the Stormies in the transport don't go low enough, and when they exit we only see the back of their knees. The pauldrons are visible in both, but we don't see the bottom of the transport troopers' pauldrons- which makes it all but impossible to tell if they are indeed identical.
Keep in mind the wide variety of Stormtrooper armor present in the initial trilogy, and this may indeed be the Sandtrooper variant, or we may just be lacking a picture of the same parts of the armor.
I could find no definitive points of comparison- which areas did you see that were clearly different?
The back comes higher, there is no square thing, the pauldrons sit out more, the black part is more shown on top one under the arms.
you are right, it might be a different variant of armour, but just looks different.
The back comes higher, there is no square thing, the pauldrons sit out more, the black part is more shown on top one under the arms.
you are right, it might be a different variant of armour, but just looks different.
Stormtrooper armor has changed in the last 30 years. This was revealed some time ago and then confirmed with the appearance of stormtroopers in the teaser.
What stormtroopers look like in The Force Awakens:
What they looked like in Star Wars:
If you still aren't convinced, pause the GIF during the shot of the back of the their legs as the ramp drops and you can see that they are wearing the same black, ribbed material that John Boyega's character has on under his white armor.
Have they come out and actually said he is a storm trooper? Or is that fan speculation made true?
I'm guessing you didn't read what I wrote... whether or not he is an actual stormtroopers or a someone other than a stormtrooper wearing stormtrooper armor has not been revealed.
The back comes higher, there is no square thing, the pauldrons sit out more, the black part is more shown on top one under the arms.
you are right, it might be a different variant of armour, but just looks different.
Stormtrooper armor has changed in the last 30 years. This was revealed some time ago and then confirmed with the appearance of stormtroopers in the teaser.
What stormtroopers look like in The Force Awakens:
What they looked like in Star Wars:
If you still aren't convinced, pause the GIF during the shot of the back of the their legs as the ramp drops and you can see that they are wearing the same black, ribbed material that John Boyega's character has on under his white armor.
Have they come out and actually said he is a storm trooper? Or is that fan speculation made true?
I'm guessing you didn't read what I wrote... whether or not he is an actual stormtroopers or a someone other than a stormtrooper wearing stormtrooper armor has not been revealed.
The costume however, is that of a stormtrooper.
my humblest of apologies for not being so specific, I meant have they come out and said he is wearing Storm Trooper armour, or is that fan made speculation. You seem to be quite hostile on something as trivial as mild speculation. I see that the armour does look a little different now, though I think that quick flashing part we see (yes even when paused) doesn't prove this. The new shoulder pads do look the same.
While he probably is in Storm Trooper armour, it doesn't hurt to speculate, does it?
Rippy wrote: my humblest of apologies for not being so specific, I meant have they come out and said he is wearing Storm Trooper armour, or is that fan made speculation. You seem to be quite hostile on something as trivial as mild speculation. I see that the armour does look a little different now, though I think that quick flashing part we see (yes even when paused) doesn't prove this. The new shoulder pads do look the same. While he probably is in Storm Trooper armour, it doesn't hurt to speculate, does it?
I'm not being hostile, you're trying to figure out something that isn't there. There is nothing to speculate here: John Boyega is wearing stormtrooper armor, the guys in the dropship are stormtroopers, and stormtrooper armor in The Force Awakens is not the same as stormtrooper armor in the Original Trilogy. You keep bringing up how the new costume is different from the one we last saw 30 years ago as "proof" for your incorrect theory that John Boyega isn't wearing stormtrooper armor despite the fact that it has been explained that the costumes aren't the same. This is just like the guy a few pages ago that swore the X-wings we've been shown weren't X-wings even though they are. The costumes have changed: the stormtroopers don't look exactly the same, the Rebel pilots don't look exactly the same, the X-wings don't look exactly the same, and the Millennium Falcon doesn't look exactly the same.
Also, in response to idiots complaining about a black guy wearing stormtrooper armor, John Boyega took to his Instagram account and said, "To whom it may concern... Get used to it."
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: The costumes have changed: the stormtroopers don't look exactly the same, the Rebel pilots don't look exactly the same, the X-wings don't look exactly the same, and the Millennium Falcon doesn't look exactly the same.
I've also heard rumors that Luke, Lei, and Han look older, as if time had past since Return of the Jedi.
Rippy wrote: my humblest of apologies for not being so specific, I meant have they come out and said he is wearing Storm Trooper armour, or is that fan made speculation. You seem to be quite hostile on something as trivial as mild speculation. I see that the armour does look a little different now, though I think that quick flashing part we see (yes even when paused) doesn't prove this. The new shoulder pads do look the same.
While he probably is in Storm Trooper armour, it doesn't hurt to speculate, does it?
I'm not being hostile, you're trying to figure out something that isn't there. There is nothing to speculate here: John Boyega is wearing stormtrooper armor, the guys in the dropship are stormtroopers, and stormtrooper armor in The Force Awakens is not the same as stormtrooper armor in the Original Trilogy. You keep bringing up how the new costume is different from the one we last saw 30 years ago as "proof" for your incorrect theory that John Boyega isn't wearing stormtrooper armor despite the fact that it has been explained that the costumes aren't the same. This is just like the guy a few pages ago that swore the X-wings we've been shown weren't X-wings even though they are. The costumes have changed: the stormtroopers don't look exactly the same, the Rebel pilots don't look exactly the same, the X-wings don't look exactly the same, and the Millennium Falcon doesn't look exactly the same.
Also, in response to idiots complaining about a black guy wearing stormtrooper armor, John Boyega took to his Instagram account and said, "To whom it may concern... Get used to it."
As I understand it, the backlash over a black stormtrooper stemmed from.the misapprehension that the stormtroopers are still clones of Jango Fett, and that Boyega is the therefore the wrong race. Which would be true, if they were actually were still clones. So not everyone complaining is racist, they're just mistaken.
Besides, is it really such a stretch to believe that the Empire is institutionally racist?
ScootyPuffJunior wrote: The costumes have changed: the stormtroopers don't look exactly the same, the Rebel pilots don't look exactly the same, the X-wings don't look exactly the same, and the Millennium Falcon doesn't look exactly the same.
I've also heard rumors that Luke, Lei, and Han look older, as if time had past since Return of the Jedi.
Well there was a leak on 4chan. May be real, maybe not. But its an awesome direction to go if true.
Spoiler for juicy juicy details,
Spoiler:
30-40 years have passed, and the war is still ongoing. The New Republic(led by Leia) is currently deadlocked with the Empire. The war is likened to WW1 in its stagnation. Luke went into seclusion after the battle of Endor. He has supposedly trained a very few Jedi over the years, but they're still keeping a very low profile.
Forget 99.999999999999999% of the EU.
Very very dark setting.
Allegedly, John Boyega's character, name of Boyega, is indeed a Storm Trooper. He is a force sensitive who is eventually forced to desert because of it. He crashes on a "Desert planet", and meets up with the chick on the Fridge speeder, whose name is Kira, and her mentor(who collects Jedi/Sith artifacts) is the guy we see in the artwork holding Vader's mask.
They all eventually get passage off the planet with Han and Chewie(who now has a robotic arm)
She turns out to be Han and Leia's daughter. She is currently keeping her identity as a Solo a secret. She is force sensitive, but was never trained by Luke and she is a little peeved about it.
The Republic is apparently building some sort of Super Weapon on a "Scandinavian Forest world". This is where we have the shot of our intrepid Broadsabre wielding Sith who is an ambitious, force-sensitive pilot who falls to the dark side. He is partially a Cyborg and played by Adam Driver. The Lightsabre is cobbled together and referred to as a "Junk" lightsabre. The crossguard was entirely the idea of the art department.
Andy Cerkis is playing an Alien Sith Lord who operates outside of the Rule of Two and has his own agenda. He apparently was manipulating Palpatine over the years. He is NOT Darth Pelagius.
The Sith are not aligned with the Empire. The only force users the Empire has are Inquisitors(some of which are not force sensitive, but all use Lightsabres)
Lando is apparently a big celebrity hero.
The Ball Droid belongs to Kira.
We eventually meet Luke(who does survive the movie) and he eventually takes on Kira and Boyega's character as apprentices.
We will see several lightsabre fights that are "minimalistic and powerful". Luke apparently does indeed fight in this movie.
I'm not saying everyone complaining that John Boyega playing a stormtrooper is racist, but the people who are (which are out there), they are indeed idiots.
A couple of those things I predicted/speculated earlier in the thread.
Spoiler:
Ball droid belongs to the girl. I bet she built,it from scavenged parts like her grandfather anakin Skywalker.
An independent Sith Lord who's been around as long as Palpatine, lurking in the background, manipulating events.
Solo daughter becomes Luke's padawan. I bet, if she has a brother, he becomes a Sith apprentice. Luke and the Sith Lord are playing a game of chess, using the apprentices like pawns.
If the Empire really are no longer affiliated with the Sith, that'll make an interesting 3 faction dynamic. Or maybe even 4 factions if the Jedi, like the Sith, are keeping a low profile and not overtly interacting and cooperating with the Republic.
Empire vs New Republic vs Sith vs Jedi. Every faction is pursuing its own agenda.
I love the dark setting. If there's just one thing I loved about the prequel trilogy, particularly III, it was the much darker tone.
It seems pretty clear the guy is wearing stormtrooper armour as it's been redesigned a lot. I doubt the film makers are going to be drawn into making many specific statements this early, that's the point of a teaser.
The arguments about him being black are rather silly. Firstly we don't know the circumstances in which he may be wearing the armour. Secondly, the first clone army was made at least 50 years prior to the new films and in Attack of the Clones the cloners say it's all been paid for, which might imply that they are not a continuous production. Anyway, it's more than conceivable that it's open to non-clones as even Luke and Biggs were expecting to join the imperial academy as pilots in New Hope.
Sounds good if true. And the people who are complaining about the black stormtooper are nuts. It's not like there haven't been black stormtoopers before.
Grey Templar wrote: Well there was a leak on 4chan. May be real, maybe not. But its an awesome direction to go if true.
Spoiler for juicy juicy details,
Spoiler:
30-40 years have passed, and the war is still ongoing. The New Republic(led by Leia) is currently deadlocked with the Empire. The war is likened to WW1 in its stagnation. Luke went into seclusion after the battle of Endor. He has supposedly trained a very few Jedi over the years, but they're still keeping a very low profile.
Forget 99.999999999999999% of the EU.
Very very dark setting.
Allegedly, John Boyega's character, name of Boyega, is indeed a Storm Trooper. He is a force sensitive who is eventually forced to desert because of it. He crashes on a "Desert planet", and meets up with the chick on the Fridge speeder, whose name is Kira, and her mentor(who collects Jedi/Sith artifacts) is the guy we see in the artwork holding Vader's mask.
They all eventually get passage off the planet with Han and Chewie(who now has a robotic arm)
She turns out to be Han and Leia's daughter. She is currently keeping her identity as a Solo a secret. She is force sensitive, but was never trained by Luke and she is a little peeved about it.
The Republic is apparently building some sort of Super Weapon on a "Scandinavian Forest world". This is where we have the shot of our intrepid Broadsabre wielding Sith who is an ambitious, force-sensitive pilot who falls to the dark side. He is partially a Cyborg and played by Adam Driver. The Lightsabre is cobbled together and referred to as a "Junk" lightsabre. The crossguard was entirely the idea of the art department.
Andy Cerkis is playing an Alien Sith Lord who operates outside of the Rule of Two and has his own agenda. He apparently was manipulating Palpatine over the years. He is NOT Darth Pelagius.
The Sith are not aligned with the Empire. The only force users the Empire has are Inquisitors(some of which are not force sensitive, but all use Lightsabres)
Lando is apparently a big celebrity hero.
The Ball Droid belongs to Kira.
We eventually meet Luke(who does survive the movie) and he eventually takes on Kira and Boyega's character as apprentices.
We will see several lightsabre fights that are "minimalistic and powerful". Luke apparently does indeed fight in this movie.
The Sith are not aligned with the Empire. The only force users the Empire has are Inquisitors(some of which are not force sensitive, but all use Lightsabres)
That, I don't agree with, one bit... because, IIRC, previous canon has stated outright that someone who is not force sensitive cannot use a lightsaber.
The obvious "contradiction" is of course, when Han makes a Tauntaun hut with Luke's saber... To which I would say that it's possible that in order to be trainable in the force, both parents need to be force sensitive (I still don't buy that "midichlorians" malarky)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, don't get me wrong.... that whole thing in the spoilers does sound like an awesomely badass SW movie
The Sith are not aligned with the Empire. The only force users the Empire has are Inquisitors(some of which are not force sensitive, but all use Lightsabres)
That, I don't agree with, one bit... because, IIRC, previous canon has stated outright that someone who is not force sensitive cannot use a lightsaber.
The obvious "contradiction" is of course, when Han makes a Tauntaun hut with Luke's saber... To which I would say that it's possible that in order to be trainable in the force, both parents need to be force sensitive (I still don't buy that "midichlorians" malarky)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, don't get me wrong.... that whole thing in the spoilers does sound like an awesomely badass SW movie
I'm sorry but that sounds somewhat silly... You think that to even pick up and activate a light sabre, you have to be force sensitive? AFAIK theres nothing special about a light sabre that requires force sensitivity to use it. Its just a tool, a weapon, made of normal everyday materials like metal. Its not some mystical magical item that only activates when a Jedi picks it up, or have DNA recognition technology that rejects non Force sensitive users and only recognizes Jedi/Sith.
No, a much more credible explanation is that anyone can use a light sabre, anyone can pick it up and activate it, like Han Solo did. But due to the considerable weight and extremely dangerous nature of the weapon, only Force sensitive users can use it effectively and safely - anybody else are more likely to chop off their own limb.
Besides, General Grievous uses light sabres. Hes not force sensitive, is he?
As for the non-sensitive Imperial Inquisitors equipped with Light sabres - perhaps they're using weaker bastardised versions of light sabres with the weight reduced so that they can be used somewhat effectively and safely?
My understanding of it, is that someone force sensitive/trained in the force is required to even MAKE a lightsaber, in that, whatever/however the crystal is balanced in front of the power source, as well as the power/sensitivity of the user determines the size of the blades.
As Obi Wan was teaching Luke in Ep. 4, he was talking about not seeing, but feeling and letting the force flow through him, the lightsaber being merely an extension of him and his force "focus" (obviously, anyone who has read manuals on sword fighting/weaponized martial arts, knows that this is kind of a central thing as well... practice with your weapon until it is merely an extension of you, not something in your hand)
Also, wasn't there some throw away comment in one of the "prequel" movies about how, just because someone is force sensitive doesn't mean they are potentially powerful/sensitive enough to harness it and become a force user? As such, it would be entirely possible for characters like Grievous and others to be Sensitive, and yet be unable to touch/use the force.
Also, wasn't there some throw away comment in one of the "prequel" movies about how, just because someone is force sensitive doesn't mean they are potentially powerful/sensitive enough to harness it and become a force user? As such, it would be entirely possible for characters like Grievous and others to be Sensitive, and yet be unable to touch/use the force
What's your evidence for that? Do you know for a fact that Grievous is force sensitive?
You mentioned previously that "previous Canon" stated that non force sensitive users cannot use a light sabre. What source is this? I thought it was the case that only force sensitive users can use a sabre effectively.
Besides, most of the EU has just been retconned into irrelevancy.
As far as I know only Sith and Jedi make lightsabers. Other orders, that don't necessarily exist anymore such as the Force witches of planet Whocares, never used them.
Ahtman wrote: As far as I know only Sith and Jedi make lightsabers. Other orders, that don't necessarily exist anymore such as the Force witches of planet Whocares, never used them.
Which supports the idea that only force sensitive people can make them.
It does not support the idea that only they can use them.
Only Forcers can make them.
Anyone can use them.
Only Forcers can wield them with anything remotely approaching competence. Or, well, unless you're (mostly) a robot.
I also imagine that it's not the 'considerable weight' of a lightsaber that's the problem, but more the complete and total absence of weight outside the pommel that is much of the issue. As there's no physical substance of the blade, there'd be no air resistance or mass of the blade itself to help you judge where the darned thing is, especially when you can't see it, because you're swinging it over your shoulder, for example.
Of course, someone like Grievious, or something like a practice droid would no doubt be doing numerous mathematical calculations to do with angle and length to stop them slicing an arm off.
Only Forcers can make them.
Anyone can use them.
Only Forcers can wield them with anything remotely approaching competence. Or, well, unless you're (mostly) a robot.
Yes, I agree. I can't see why it wouldn't be like any regular weapon: where only a smith can make them, anyone can use them, but someone trained with them can use them better.
For instance, almost anyone can swing an arming sword. But only someone with training would have learned the right foot movements, stances, timing and feel of the weapon.
Only Forcers can make them.
Anyone can use them.
Only Forcers can wield them with anything remotely approaching competence. Or, well, unless you're (mostly) a robot.
Well Greivious wasn't a robot but an alien inside a cybernetic suit. If it were that easy droids would be using them left and right. As anyone being able to use them I imagine anyone can turn them on but I also imagine using it would be the difference between a kid buttering bread and a kendo master with a blade. I would put it far beyond competence as being a difference between them.
Only Forcers can make them.
Anyone can use them.
Only Forcers can wield them with anything remotely approaching competence. Or, well, unless you're (mostly) a robot.
I also imagine that it's not the 'considerable weight' of a lightsaber that's the problem, but more the complete and total absence of weight outside the pommel that is much of the issue. As there's no physical substance of the blade, there'd be no air resistance or mass of the blade itself to help you judge where the darned thing is, especially when you can't see it, because you're swinging it over your shoulder, for example.
Of course, someone like Grievious, or something like a practice droid would no doubt be doing numerous mathematical calculations to do with angle and length to stop them slicing an arm off.
Grievous is a cyborg. His brain, and several vital internal organs (which Obi Wan uses a blaster to incinerate) are organic. So no numerous mathematical calculations for him.
I seem to remember grievous saying he was trained in the Jedi Arts in the movie. Or something. He simply kills and collects Jedi light sabers as a hobby or something.
Swastakowey wrote: I seem to remember grievous saying he was trained in the Jedi Arts in the movie. Or something. He simply kills and collects Jedi light sabers as a hobby or something.
I remember reading his Wookieepedia article some time ago when I was bored at work and should have been doing something productive.
I recall he was a great warrior from a martial culture prior to being turned into a cyborg. That's probably make him a pretty solid candidate to learn and develop some advanced sabre techniques.
You can totally use a Lightsabre without being force sensitive. It just helps to be force sensitive because the blade is quite dangerous if you aren't properly trained(and precognition helps in avoiding your own blade)
You don't even actually need to be force sensitive to make a lightsabre, but it helps a lot in making sure the crystal is seated correctly. IE: Its pretty darn difficult to make if you aren't, but not impossible.
Lightsabres do resonate with the force. There is a reason there is an association between them and force users, but its not a mandatory connection. General Grevious is a canon example of a non-sensitive Sabre duelist.
There aren't any non-force wielder Lightsabre combat forms, so trying to learn to use one without being force sensitive might be an issue, but its far from impossible.
I would have thought that learning the force would naturally have your skills with a lightsabre increase as time goes on.
Like, luke didnt train how to use a lightsabre, he trained how to let the force do it with him. His training with yoda and obi wan was all about the force. Even the blast shield helmet scene. Luke was the only one focusing on the lightsabre side of it at the beginning.
So in my opinion, I think those trained in the force can simply have the force or whatever guide them "naturally" in how to use the lightsabre but any old person with practice can use a lightsabre as well. They just wont have the benefit of the force gifting them their ability.
It seems the closer one is to the force, the more they can rely on the force to aid them in their lightsabre attacks. So more force = more saber prowess. I doubt jedi train how to use light sabres very often, it seems very force only orientated.
Yet again, I only know stuff from the movies. Anything outside of the movies and I know nothing.
Ratius wrote: In that spoiler leak, it mentions the rule of two. What is that?
Sith masters only take a single apprentice. Eventually, when the apprentice becomes powerful enough, their final test to become a master is to kill their master. If they succeed, they take an apprentice, and the cycle continues. If they don't, they either die and the master finds a new apprentice, or training continues.
If I'm mistaken on any points, feel free to correct me.
Ratius wrote: In that spoiler leak, it mentions the rule of two. What is that?
It's the idea that there can only ever be two Sith, a master and an apprentice. For example, Plageius and Sidious, Sidious and Maul/Dooku/Vader and in his own bastardised version seen in Clone Wars, Maul and Savage Oppress.
Now that doesn't mean you can't have other Dark Side Force Users, just that they are not actually Sith. See Assaj Ventris, Savage Oppress, The Inquisitors ect.
Ratius wrote: In that spoiler leak, it mentions the rule of two. What is that?
It's the idea that there can only ever be two Sith, a master and an apprentice. For example, Plageius and Sidious, Sidious and Maul/Dooku/Vader and in his own bastardised version seen in Clone Wars, Maul and Savage Oppress.
Now that doesn't mean you can't have other Dark Side Force Users, just that they are not actually Sith. See Assaj Ventris, Savage Oppress, The Inquisitors ect.
Unless there are other rogue Sith Lords who reject the Rule of Two, as the leak suggests.
I prefer this, the idea that there is another actual Sith Lord out there, a peer to Palpatine himself and not just some wannabee Dark Jedi. It raises the stakes considerably.
Although that doesn't stop people strong in the Dark Side from claiming to be Sith. And honestly the real Sith is just whoever beats all the other contenders.
Its not like there is some metaphysical part of the dark side saying "Sorry, no vacancies available right now" when there are 2 Sith lords.
Isn't Sith just a title? My understanding that the Sith were a race that used the Dark Side, but that eventually they became extinct and other Dark Siders donned their named. If its only a title then I don't see why the hell not other people won't use it, or apparently the "bad guys" (KotoR II was good for Chris Avellone calling bull on the whole black and white thing) all follow a code that the guy in charge should be called a Sith lord. Ah, I thought the Dark Side was all about power, it seems weird that its followers would sublimate themselves. =P
Wyrmalla wrote: Isn't Sith just a title? My understanding that the Sith were a race that used the Dark Side, but that eventually they became extinct and other Dark Siders donned their named. If its only a title then I don't see why the hell not other people won't use it, or apparently the "bad guys" (KotoR II was good for Chris Avellone calling bull on the whole black and white thing) all follow a code that the guy in charge should be called a Sith lord. Ah, I thought the Dark Side was all about power, it seems weird that its followers would sublimate themselves. =P
Yes, the Sith took their name from a race of Force Users. At one point there were lots of them, but they nearly destroyed themselves through backstabbing and intrigue. And so the Rule Of Two was implemented to allow the Sith order to survive in some fashion, as it was decided that without it they would just wipe themselves out sooner or later.
In the EU, it's all become steadily more convoluted, with different Sith groups popping up that refused the Rule of Two, Krayt implementing his 'Rule of One' (One Sith Order, the 'One True Sith'), a group of pre-Rule of Two Sith time travelling from 5000 years in the past to 40-ish years after ANH, and another group of descendants of pre-Rule of Two Sith popping up on an isolated planet where a Sith ship had crashed, also 5000 years ago.
On the whole, it's probably a good thing that Disney decided to dump the EU. It was just getting too messy.
Wyrmalla wrote: Isn't Sith just a title? My understanding that the Sith were a race that used the Dark Side, but that eventually they became extinct and other Dark Siders donned their named. If its only a title then I don't see why the hell not other people won't use it, or apparently the "bad guys" (KotoR II was good for Chris Avellone calling bull on the whole black and white thing) all follow a code that the guy in charge should be called a Sith lord. Ah, I thought the Dark Side was all about power, it seems weird that its followers would sublimate themselves. =P
Yes, the Sith took their name from a race of Force Users. At one point there were lots of them, but they nearly destroyed themselves through backstabbing and intrigue. And so the Rule Of Two was implemented to allow the Sith order to survive in some fashion, as it was decided that without it they would just wipe themselves out sooner or later.
In the EU, it's all become steadily more convoluted, with different Sith groups popping up that refused the Rule of Two, Krayt implementing his 'Rule of One' (One Sith Order, the 'One True Sith'), a group of pre-Rule of Two Sith time travelling from 5000 years in the past to 40-ish years after ANH, and another group of descendants of pre-Rule of Two Sith popping up on an isolated planet where a Sith ship had crashed, also 5000 years ago.
On the whole, it's probably a good thing that Disney decided to dump the EU. It was just getting too messy.
To be fair, the "rule of two" is one of the lamest things in all of Star Wars history, right up there with medichlorians, which probably was a factor in why so many authors tried to get around it. It's probably one of the few cases in which the EU muddying the waters a bit actually improved things.
Would have been better if sith had unknown amount of groups. made deals with each other every so often and tried to kill each other or fight each other for dominance every so often.
Kind of like a string of criminal groups who all hate the jedi but will fight each other.
Hordini wrote: To be fair, the "rule of two" is one of the lamest things in all of Star Wars history, right up there with medichlorians, which probably was a factor in why so many authors tried to get around it. .
Heh... It is interesting to see how little of the EU material makes any mention at all of midichlorians.
Hordini wrote: To be fair, the "rule of two" is one of the lamest things in all of Star Wars history, right up there with medichlorians, which probably was a factor in why so many authors tried to get around it. .
Heh... It is interesting to see how little of the EU material makes any mention at all of midichlorians.
For all its downsides, the EU did have its advantages. They had to get permission to include or do certain things, such as
Spoiler:
the death of Chewbacca in Vector Prime
but they didn't really need to get permission to exclude things.
I'm imagining George Lucas writing about Midichlorians and then the EU authors are all like:
Ahtman wrote: As far as I know only Sith and Jedi make lightsabers. Other orders, that don't necessarily exist anymore such as the Force witches of planet Whocares, never used them.
In their defense the Force Witches of Whocares had light brooms. And they brought the pain.
Gotta say I'm not in love with the new pilot helmets for the X-wing pilots... too small and streamlined for my tastes. I do like the general look of pretty much everything else in the trailer, though.
squidhills wrote: Gotta say I'm not in love with the new pilot helmets for the X-wing pilots... too small and streamlined for my tastes. I do like the general look of pretty much everything else in the trailer, though.
looking at the one still above... I agree with you. It stops far too high up on the head. If he crashed in a manner that he'd survive, he'd feth his jaw up beyond all repair/recognition simply due to the pressure points created by those cheek plates.
To those who say that non-force users cannot use lightsabers - Remember General Grievous - He wasn't a force user, and he wielded 4 lightsabers. So....yeah
And canon I would say doesn't really matter anymore because of the reboot in franchise.
Doctadeth wrote: To those who say that non-force users cannot use lightsabers - Remember General Grievous - He wasn't a force user, and he wielded 4 lightsabers. So....yeah
Well he had some latent, or lite, force ability and was trained in their use by a Jedi master as well as being cybernetic, so it wasn't like he had nothing going for him.
Doctadeth wrote: To those who say that non-force users cannot use lightsabers - Remember General Grievous - He wasn't a force user, and he wielded 4 lightsabers. So....yeah
Well he had some latent, or lite, force ability and was trained in their use by a Jedi master as well as being cybernetic, so it wasn't like he had nothing going for him.
Yep, his Wookiepedia page claims that he was "upset" that the Jedi Blood used to sustain his organs while he was put into the robot shell didn't give him Sensitivity to the Force, which in some small way supports what I was saying that there are those who have just enough Force ability to wield a lightsaber, or are so "lucky" it seems unnatural (Han is often described in such terms as well).
Just read up on lightsabers in Star Wars Saga Edition tabletop RPG (derived from DnD). In that lightsabers are exotic weapons that you need to take a feat to use (Jedi get it for free), for the uninitiated this means anyone can use them but it requires special training, you'll have no access to force specific abilities like parrying shots, but with the right training anyone can use one just as well as a vibroblade or good old fashioned sword.
Now obviously thats just an RPG but its probably the most concise info on the subject I've seen thus far.
Have some (vague) recollections that back in the day of the West End Games d6 based game you had to have ..err...... either Control or Sense powers ( don't think it was alter ?) to be able to use a light saber without maiming yourself.
reds8n wrote: I think that's something of a change though.
Have some (vague) recollections that back in the day of the West End Games d6 based game you had to have ..err...... either Control or Sense powers ( don't think it was alter ?) to be able to use a light saber without maiming yourself.
Naw, WEG Star Wars said anyone with hands could swing a lightsaber, but if you missed the base difficulty of the attack roll (which was always a Difficult 20-25) you hit yourself with the blade. You needed Control and Sense powers to be able to deflect blaster bolts and increase the base damage of the saber. A lightsaber has a base damage of 5D (the same as a blaster rifle) but using the Lightsaber Combat Force ability, a Jedi can increase the damage by a number of dice equal to their relevant Force skill (so you can get sabers doing 15D damage, which is more than enough to cut a tank in half with a flick of the wrist).
...I know this stuff because I've been running a D6 Star Wars campaign since 1994. One of my current players has obtained a lightsaber (she has no Force ability at all) and has been trying to learn how to use it without a) cutting her own arms off and b) letting the Jedi know she has it in the first place (it fell off the back of a truck, honest!)
Just read a good article in defense of the cross guard light sabre, and I'm actually starting to love the concept.
Tl;dr.
-the lightsabre with crossguards sums up the character - "This is the lightsaber of a bloodthirsty young berserker." -He made the lightsabre himself, cobbling it together from scrap, perhaps following incomplete designs, with no guidance
-Even fully trained and highly skilled Jedi have a disturbing habit of losing their wrists in lightsabre fights, so if they need wrist protection, then a self naught novice who stumbled across old Sith holocrons but with no mentor and no training DEFINITELY needs wrist protection -amputations happen so often that fans made up an entire school of light sabre combat (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cho_mai)
see:
Anakin Skywalker
Count Dooku
General Grievous
Mace Windu
Darth Vader
Luke Skywalker
Haters gonna hate, but the lightsaber seen in the new The Force Awakens trailer is great design. Here's why.
In the new trailer for J.J. Abrams's forthcoming Star Wars: The Force Awakens, a shadowy, hooded figure (rumored to be played by Girls's Adam Driver) walks into the snowy woods at night and flicks on a red-bladed lightsaber. Then, half of a second later, two smaller lightsabers sputter out at the base of the hilt as a kind of crossguard, meant to protect his hand from getting severed by a blade. And lo, the lightsaber crossguard meme was born.
I think we can all agree that there's definitely a need for some kind of wrist protection for lightsabers. Hands get chopped off in the Star Wars universe so often, uber-fans have made up a whole imaginary school of lightsaber combat to try to make sense of it. Not only did Luke Skywalker get his hand cut off by a lightsaber, his dad's hand was lopped off by a laser blade twice. And heck, check out this clip:
Spoiler:
Look at how easily Anakin Skywalker severed both of Count Dooku's hands in Revenge of the Sith just by running his blade up the shaft. If Dooku had a crossguard on his lightsaber, this never would've happened!
So yes, the Star Wars universe needs crossguards. But J.J. Abrams's particular solution to the problem is making the Internet laugh. Critics say the lightsaber crossguard is more likely to make Driver (or whoever that is) sever his own hand than actually protect him from someone else's blade. Even if the crossguard did work as intended, it looks silly, these critics argue.
I couldn't disagree more. I'm excited by what this new lightsaber says about J.J. Abrams's story-driven approach to the Star Wars universe. In fact, if you think it looks silly, I'd argue you're not looking at it in the right way. This is great design, through and through. Here's why.
Every lightsaber tells a story
Let me start by making a simple observation: like the design of any similarly iconic weapon from cinema, the most important thing about a lightsaber's design isn't whether or not it's practical to fight with in the real world. It's what it tells us about the person holding it.
Spoiler:
Consider, for example, the difference between Obi-Wan Kenobi's blue, single-bladed lightsaber as seen in A New Hope (which conveys that he is a gentleman knight from a more elegant time) and Darth Maul's red double-bladed lightsaber from The Phantom Menace (which is the weapon of a ferocious and incredibly agile animal who will stop at nothing to draw blood). Neither of these weapons is practical in any real sense of the word, because a laser sword that can effortlessly cut through anything can never be practical: you'd dismember yourself the first time you accidentally tapped yourself with it. But when Obi-Wan Kenobi and Darth Maul fight at the end of The Phantom Menace, it is the fact that they are fighting with these swords in particular that tells us everything we need to know about what is actually at stake: the end of a more civilized and enlightened time, and the beginning of an age of bloodshed, cruelty, and strife.
So when judging the new lightsaber in The Force Awakens trailer, the first thing we should be judging it by is what it tells us about its owner. Which is a lot.
Defining a new Darth Vader
In the Star Wars movies there are only ever two Sith Lords: a master and an apprentice. So when Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader die at the end of Return of the Jedi, that's it. The Sith are extinct. Yet here's maybe Adam Driver, wielding a Sith lightsaber, around 30 years after the end of the Sith Order. Where did he get it?
Spoiler:
Did he find it? It's possible, but every clue in the trailer suggests that he made it. Notice how the lightsaber sputters, crackles, and flickers as the character turns it on. As io9 notes, that's a sign of shoddy workmanship. But don't just look at it, listen to it. The sound of a lightsaber turning on is always smooth around the edges, but this lightsaber sounds dirty, and full of static. These are all design choices, consciously made to tell us, the viewers, something about what we're seeing.
"The lightsaber tells a story. And when it comes to the language of cinema, that's the only design problem worth solving."
Listen to the trailer's narration. "There has been an awakening. Have you felt it? The dark side." Combined with everything else, that says everything you need to know: The Force Awakens is about the rebirth of the Sith after their destruction. The character in the trailer is formative to that. And without a master to guide him, he's rebuilding the Sith order from scratch, which includes figuring out how to create a lightsaber for himself, warts and all.
So if the anonymous villain created this lightsaber himself, why did he design it with a crossguard at all? Simple: he knows he's vulnerable to getting his hands cut off, because he's not skilled. He has no training. If a regular lightsaber is a katana, this is a claymore: a brutal and unsophisticated weapon favored by a vicious, untrained fighter who is relying upon brute strength to chop his opponents to pieces.
Conclusion
The crossguard says so much about the character wielding it. After all of the silly lightsaber ballet of the prequels, it opens up a whole new dynamic, and immediately differentiates the character in the trailer from every Star Wars baddie who has come before him. This isn't the lightsaber of a trained warrior in his prime, like in the prequels, or a retired Jedi who hasn't fought in 30 years, like in Episodes IV through VI. This is the lightsaber of a bloodthirsty young berserker.
Spoiler:
Granted, there might have been other ways for J.J. Abrams to convey, through lightsaber design, the idea of the brutal, untrained warrior. In novels, games, and comics, the Star Wars universe has established a number of materials that can't be harmed by lightsabers. From a practical perspective, surely these would be better for protecting someone's hands and wrists than a crossguard made out of lasers that will cut right through your wrist if you swing it wrong. But they wouldn't look as distinctive on film, and they would require explanation in the script about the metallurgy of the Star Wars universe. If you thought hearing about midichlorians in The Phantom Menace was bad, imagine sitting through a jaunt through the Star Wars periodic table.
Which is why, from a cinematic perspective, the lightsaber crossguard we're seeing in The Force Awakens trailer is such incredible design. It's not just visually arresting. It's efficient. We know what we're seeing immediately, no explanation needed. And not only that, it illuminates a character's personality, and fighting style with just the flip of a switch. It helps tell a story. And when it comes to the language of cinema, that's the only design problem worth solving.
I agree with everything. Except the idea that a Claymore somehow is a brutal and unsophisticated weapon which takes no skill to use. That's totally untrue.
Grey Templar wrote: I agree with everything. Except the idea that a Claymore somehow is a brutal and unsophisticated weapon which takes no skill to use. That's totally untrue.
Agreed and agreed. It takes skill and lots of practice to swing that around, no one can just pick one up and start being a bad ass with a claymore.
Grey Templar wrote: I agree with everything. Except the idea that a Claymore somehow is a brutal and unsophisticated weapon which takes no skill to use. That's totally untrue.
Agreed... BUT!!!! I do hope that, giving this new sith guy a crossguard means that they treat him more like a knight/fighter, as opposed to a parkour master.... It's the biggest thing that bugged the gak out of me in the first 3 movies, with the exception of Ray Park's Darth Maul.
The OT has, IMO, by far the better lightsaber duels, precisely because they are emotional and brutal affairs. Even in RotJ, Luke's "style" of fighting is not fancy, it was adapted from fencing techniques, yes, but he didn't need somersaults, backflips, front flips or 360 No-Hand Can Cans (OK, that last one is from MX, but you get the idea)
If we're talking about claymore usage, yes, the wielders physical strength is one of the biggest keys, and yes, he/she probably isn't going to wield it with much finesse, but that does not mean there is a lack of sophistication.
Well the original films were more based on Samurai films and the Jedi on Samurai. I never bought the excuse that being more of them meant they were more like Wuxia film that was given for the flips and such from the others. Hopefully they go back to that original idea more. Making Sith like knights against the Jedi being more like Samurai isn't a terrible idea either.
I still can't get over that Crossguard. It doesn't make sense when there's multiple metals in Star Wars that can no-sell Lightsabers. While the EU was retconned, there's still the phrik used in the Magnaguard staves that were capable of consistently blocking lightsaber strikes.
...But making a guard that will cut your hand off defeats the purpose of putting quillons on a sword. You'd be better off with a simple basket guard on a lightsaber as well.
Wyzilla wrote: I still can't get over that Crossguard. It doesn't make sense when there's multiple metals in Star Wars that can no-sell Lightsabers. While the EU was retconned, there's still the phrik used in the Magnaguard staves that were capable of consistently blocking lightsaber strikes.
...But making a guard that will cut your hand off defeats the purpose of putting quillons on a sword. You'd be better off with a simple basket guard on a lightsaber as well.
Lightsabres get destroyed numerous times in the films.
Obi Wan's lightsabre is destroyed by Darth Maul. Darth Maul's lightsabre is damaged by Obi Wan and cut down to just one blade. Does Luke Skywalker destory Darth vader's sword in ROTJ?
Whilst making any part of any weapon inherently dangerous to its own user isn't the brightest of ideas, equally as a swordsman you simply shouldn't be hitting yourself with your own crossguard.
I certainly never have, and I don't proclaim to be particularly well trained or experience, as I only sword play (at a local club) as a hobby.
Also, I disagree with the analysis of Claymore usage, too. It's not a finesse weapon, but it still takes a good amount of training to make it in anyway effective in combat.
Wyzilla wrote: I still can't get over that Crossguard. It doesn't make sense when there's multiple metals in Star Wars that can no-sell Lightsabers. While the EU was retconned, there's still the phrik used in the Magnaguard staves that were capable of consistently blocking lightsaber strikes.
...But making a guard that will cut your hand off defeats the purpose of putting quillons on a sword. You'd be better off with a simple basket guard on a lightsaber as well.
Lightsabres get destroyed numerous times in the films.
Obi Wan's lightsabre is destroyed by Darth Maul. Darth Maul's lightsabre is damaged by Obi Wan and cut down to just one blade. Does Luke Skywalker destory Darth vader's sword in ROTJ?
I'm talking about metals that can repeatedly block lightsabers. Phrik, Cortosis, Beskar, whatever the DSO 1 railing was made of, etc can all block lightsaber strikes flawlessly (Cortosis can even short the blade out), without making a guard that will cut off your hand if you try to grip it to gain leverage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Doctadeth wrote: To those who say that non-force users cannot use lightsabers - Remember General Grievous - He wasn't a force user, and he wielded 4 lightsabers. So....yeah
And canon I would say doesn't really matter anymore because of the reboot in franchise.
The entire design of Grievous is stupid. If you make a character who has four arms and wields four swords that can cut through most materials in the known universe, he or she should automatically win every single duel against any enemy unless they have the same number of limbs. It doesn't matter if you have precog, your precognition would only show you dying horribly, as it is physically impossible to fend off four thrusts coming from completely different angles with one blade.
It was also part of the reason why Grievous did that stupid buzz-saw thing with his swords in Episode III, as ILM didn't know how to animate a guy with four arms in a swordfight without him instantly winning.
Grievous is a cool design, but he simply shouldn't have been given four arms as it forces either him to be incompetent for the hero to win, or force the hand of the author to make a Deus Ex Machina.
EDIT
But as a fencer, history geek, and general knowledgable person of European swords, that guard on the new lightsaber is stupid, stupid, and stupid.
Lightsabers are rapiers, not longswords, claymores, zweihanders, or other large European blades designed to fight knights in Armor. Quillons aren't there simply to look purty or grab the opponent's blade, they were meant for Half Swording, gripping the blade and using the sword as a crowbar or mace and fighting in a style of combat visually similar to Judo.
However, unlike claymores and other longswords, Lightsabers are omnidirectional blades that do not require repositioning, and are impossible to half sword with effectively, indeed there isn't even a need to half-sword with them as there is very little armor in the galaxy capable of stopping a lightsaber. So make a basket hilt out of phrik goddammit.
Spoiler:
Built out of Phrik this style of hilt would easily glance any lightsaber strike off it, and were it made of cortosis weave, short circuit and kill any lightsaber that smacked it. It also wouldn't threaten the hand of the user like the current crossguard which is made of superheated plasma.
"You could cut right through those cross-guard" does strike one as a silly complaint when you talk about a weapon that could just be disabled by cutting through every other version of it anyway or which could be disabled by just cutting through your arm anyway.
d-usa wrote: "You could cut right through those cross-guard" does strike one as a silly complaint when you talk about a weapon that could just be disabled by cutting through every other version of it anyway or which could be disabled by just cutting through your arm anyway.
Which is only because the owners of said weapons are bumbling idiots who overswing more often then children handed a zweihander for the first time.
The fights in the Phantom Menace are just simply cringe worthy the most. Episode III wasn't much better either. Hopefully we'll going back to the OT when it actually looked like they were fighting, and not drunken escapees from the local asylum who've never seen a sword before.
Also, even though that the EU was completely retconned by Disney, we still know that phrik is still canon, as the staffs used by the IG-100's no-sold lightsabers constantly. If you want a decent weapon, just make your sabers out of phrik. Guard will deflect or glance everything fired or swung at it, as will the hilt.
And there's cortosis-weave which makes materials capable of withstanding lightsaber strikes. Seen in Knights of the Old Republic and other pre-film timeline media.
So it's entirely possible the hilt/guard of that lightsaber is capable of withstanding lightsaber blows. Hell, maybe the Sith warrior has a hand made of a material capable of withstanding the lightsaber?
And really, all that matters is that it looks cool and like something that a Sith warrior would use, in my opinion. It's not elegant or civilised, it's designed to kill.
Ahtman wrote: Has cortosis appeared in any of the six movies or the Clone Wars tv series?
I don't believe so, but it's appeared (or is at least mentioned in) some of the more popular Star Wars games, namely KotOR and TOR. Whilst some of the old stuff from those games might not be canon any more, the fact that TOR is still producing new content, and hasn't experienced any content purges I've heard of, suggests that what's in the game at the moment might well be officially accepted canon (or as close to it as possible). If no new content was produced, or it underwent an overhaul, it'd be arguable that only content released after the Legends statement is canon, but right now, TOR might be our only source of what remnants from Legends might still be canon.
Avatar 720 wrote:the fact that TOR is still producing new content, and hasn't experienced any content purges I've heard of, suggests that what's in the game at the moment might well be officially accepted canon (or as close to it as possible). If no new content was produced, or it underwent an overhaul, it'd be arguable that only content released after the Legends statement is canon, but right now, TOR might be our only source of what remnants from Legends might still be canon.
Or it is reflective of a contract that stipulates they get to keep making stuff whether or not Disney wants them to or not.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Ahtman wrote: Has cortosis appeared in any of the six movies or the Clone Wars tv series?
Ahtman wrote: Has cortosis appeared in any of the six movies or the Clone Wars tv series?
No it hasn't, so, no longer canon.
If anything which isn't in the films/tv series which are set only within a very small timeframe of the whole Star Wars universe is canon then that means the Republic basically has no official history (no Mandalorian Wars, Sith Cold War etc.)
If anything which isn't in the films/tv series which are set only within a very small timeframe of the whole Star Wars universe is canon then that means the Republic basically has no official history (no Mandalorian Wars, Sith Cold War etc.)
Well, it could, but it would be much like things in the Wheel of Time, or GoT, where events in the past have been mentioned, but they are only a name from the past.
I don't know why anyone cares that much about what's canon and what's not. If you like something in the EU, keep liking it. If you don't like some of the new stuff, forget about it.
For me, the X-Wing books are all canon. Rogue Squadron is real man. I was there.
Hordini wrote: I don't know why anyone cares that much about what's canon and what's not.
It isn't a question of like and dislike as no one can tell you what you like or dislike. It is a way of understanding what might be, or might not be, in the film.
Hordini wrote: For me, the X-Wing books are all canon. Rogue Squadron is real man. I was there.
That isn't how cannon works for the people making official things. I could say that the Christmas Special is canon because I like it but that won't make it true. Just liking a thing doesn't make it canon, after all.
Hordini wrote: I don't know why anyone cares that much about what's canon and what's not.
It isn't a question of like and dislike as no one can tell you what you like or dislike. It is a way of understanding what might be, or might not be, in the film.
Hordini wrote: For me, the X-Wing books are all canon. Rogue Squadron is real man. I was there.
That isn't how cannon works for the people making official things. I could say that the Christmas Special is canon because I like it but that won't make it true. Just liking a thing doesn't make it canon, after all.
Well any of it might be in the film. We just know that it most likely won't.
And I'm not talking about the canon for the people making official things. I'm talking about my canon. You can keep the Holiday Special for your canon though.
Hordini wrote: I don't know why anyone cares that much about what's canon and what's not.
It isn't a question of like and dislike as no one can tell you what you like or dislike. It is a way of understanding what might be, or might not be, in the film.
Each and every single thing from the EU might be in the film, it just doesn't have to be. It's not like EU stuff is automatically excluded from possible plot points or having EU characters included.
Yeah, I mean Jedi have been around for thousands of years.
When you've been around that long and using the same weapon in all that time, other people who want a fight are going to have developed some method of countering it.
d-usa wrote: Each and every single thing from the EU might be in the film, it just doesn't have to be. It's not like EU stuff is automatically excluded from possible plot points or having EU characters included.
Every moment is filled with unmanifested potential yet not everything occurs.
d-usa wrote: Each and every single thing from the EU might be in the film, it just doesn't have to be. It's not like EU stuff is automatically excluded from possible plot points or having EU characters included.
Every moment is filled with unmanifested potential yet not everything occurs.
Schrödinger's Star Wars: everything is canon and nothing is canon, until you watch the movie both states exist!
d-usa wrote: Each and every single thing from the EU might be in the film, it just doesn't have to be. It's not like EU stuff is automatically excluded from possible plot points or having EU characters included.
Every moment is filled with unmanifested potential yet not everything occurs.
Schrödinger's Star Wars: everything is canon and nothing is canon, until you watch the movie both states exist!
Hordini wrote: I don't know why anyone cares that much about what's canon and what's not.
It isn't a question of like and dislike as no one can tell you what you like or dislike. It is a way of understanding what might be, or might not be, in the film.
Each and every single thing from the EU might be in the film, it just doesn't have to be. It's not like EU stuff is automatically excluded from possible plot points or having EU characters included.
No. Disney/Lucasfilm straight up purged it all and kicked it into its own alternate universe, "Legends". They may raid it for material for later films, but it probably won't resemble the original material at all.
Which is good for some things (The Vong), and horrible for others (Rogue Squadron and Wedge Awesomesauce).
reds8n wrote: I think that's something of a change though.
Have some (vague) recollections that back in the day of the West End Games d6 based game you had to have ..err...... either Control or Sense powers ( don't think it was alter ?) to be able to use a light saber without maiming yourself.
Naw, WEG Star Wars said anyone with hands could swing a lightsaber, but if you missed the base difficulty of the attack roll (which was always a Difficult 20-25) you hit yourself with the blade. You needed Control and Sense powers to be able to deflect blaster bolts and increase the base damage of the saber. A lightsaber has a base damage of 5D (the same as a blaster rifle) but using the Lightsaber Combat Force ability, a Jedi can increase the damage by a number of dice equal to their relevant Force skill (so you can get sabers doing 15D damage, which is more than enough to cut a tank in half with a flick of the wrist).
...I know this stuff because I've been running a D6 Star Wars campaign since 1994. One of my current players has obtained a lightsaber (she has no Force ability at all) and has been trying to learn how to use it without a) cutting her own arms off and b) letting the Jedi know she has it in the first place (it fell off the back of a truck, honest!)
Is that 2nd edition? First edition Lightsabres had their own skill (as opposed to all the rest of the melee weapons) and if you did a successful parry with one, you cut a melee weapon apart or damaged the person trying to punch you. Nothing about hitting yourself on a miss.
Sense allowed you to parry (and redirect) blaster bolts and control increased sabre damage ( which started ar 4d not 5d if memory serves). Ran a campaign back in '88 or so. Unfortunately lost my books when I moved to PA :(
Everything that is not the movies, the 3D Clone Wars TV series, the original novelizations of the movies, and the new "official newcanon Star Wars Books" is canon. Everything else is gone.
The cynical side of me suspects this is so with two time-lines, the Mouse can profit off both and reap in even more money by creating two separate continuities. Like how Marvel runs numerous alternate universes.
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Hordini wrote: They just said they weren't sticking to it. They didn't say they couldn't use it (basically what d-usa said).
No. Word of God from Disney that the EU is up in smoke and shoved over to the new Legends continuity.
That's not what they said. They said all the current EU stuff is being pushed to Legends, and that the new films would be part of a new canon that wouldn't be aligned with the previous EU. Now, I agree with you that most of the EU probably won't be used. But nothing that they have said so far has said that they have confined themselves to not using anything from the current EU, only that they are not beholden to it. It is possible that they may use characters or portions of story lines from the EU. Whether or not it is likely is another story, but nothing they have said precludes that possibility.
Hordini wrote: That's not what they said. They said all the current EU stuff is being pushed to Legends, and that the new films would be part of a new canon that wouldn't be aligned with the previous EU. Now, I agree with you that most of the EU probably won't be used. But nothing that they have said so far has said that they have confined themselves to not using anything from the current EU, only that they are not beholden to it. It is possible that they may use characters or portions of story lines from the EU. Whether or not it is likely is another story, but nothing they have said precludes that possibility.
Exactly.
Star Wars is basically in the same position as the new Star Trek movies.
After the first movie everything Star Trek that was canon wasn't anymore (as far as the current movies are concerned). They were not confined to the Khan storyline being exactly the same as the series or Wrath of Khan because the whole "oh no, we messed with time and everything is different now" thing going on and they made that clear that the movie franchise is a blank slate now. But that didn't mean that they couldn't cherry-pick stuff they liked and build new stories around them (like Khan still being in the new series, even though his old apperances are no longer "canon" in the new timeline).
Just because in the EU doesn't mean that it will be in the movies, true. But just because it's in the EU doesn't mean that it won't be in the movies either.
Hordini wrote: That's not what they said. They said all the current EU stuff is being pushed to Legends, and that the new films would be part of a new canon that wouldn't be aligned with the previous EU. Now, I agree with you that most of the EU probably won't be used. But nothing that they have said so far has said that they have confined themselves to not using anything from the current EU, only that they are not beholden to it. It is possible that they may use characters or portions of story lines from the EU. Whether or not it is likely is another story, but nothing they have said precludes that possibility.
Exactly.
Star Wars is basically in the same position as the new Star Trek movies.
After the first movie everything Star Trek that was canon wasn't anymore (as far as the current movies are concerned). They were not confined to the Khan storyline being exactly the same as the series or Wrath of Khan because the whole "oh no, we messed with time and everything is different now" thing going on and they made that clear that the movie franchise is a blank slate now. But that didn't mean that they couldn't cherry-pick stuff they liked and build new stories around them (like Khan still being in the new series, even though his old apperances are no longer "canon" in the new timeline).
Just because in the EU doesn't mean that it will be in the movies, true. But just because it's in the EU doesn't mean that it won't be in the movies either.
Like I said, Schroedinger's Star Wars.
Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.
Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.
Wyzilla wrote: Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.
Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.
You mean like how Marvel has some of the same characters and storylines in both continuities?
Wyzilla wrote: Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.
Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.
Except we have no reason to ever believe that they won't use anything from the EU in the new movies because no one from Lucasfilm of Disney has made that claim. I don't know what is so difficult to understand about their current position regarding the EU: its no longer cannon but it is in no way off limits. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't really exist.
Also, Wookieepedia is not official Star Wars lore. It's a fansite version of the Holocron and it's veracity should be treated as such.
Wyzilla wrote: Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.
Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.
You mean like how Marvel has some of the same characters and storylines in both continuities?
You mean like how those characters are entirely unrelated to each other as well?
Wyzilla wrote: Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.
Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.
Except we have no reason to ever believe that they won't use anything from the EU in the new movies because no one from Lucasfilm of Disney has made that claim. I don't know what is so difficult to understand about their current position regarding the EU: its no longer cannon but it is in no way off limits. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't really exist.
Also, Wookieepedia is not official Star Wars lore. It's a fansite version of the Holocron and it's veracity should be treated as such.
Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.
Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.
Oh. My. God.
Uh, yes, we all understand that the current EU is no longer cannon. However, no one has said that it is off limits for the new films or other projects. Quite the contrary, it's been made pretty clear that the EU (or "Legends" as it is known) is fair game as inspiration and certainly not off-limits.
Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.
Oh. My. God.
Uh, yes, we all understand that the current EU is no longer cannon. However, no one has said that it is off limits for the new films or other projects. Quite the contrary, it's been made pretty clear that the EU (or "Legends" as it is known) is fair game as inspiration and certainly not off-limits.
At least it will be interesting to see what Luke is going to be. Since the EU is off limits he won't be a Jedi, a Dark Jedi, a Jedi Master, train other Jedi's, won't mess with Rogue Squadron, won't fight leftover Empire forces, will never get married, will never have a son, won't be alive nor dead, or do any of the other things that he ever did in some shape or form in the EU.
It will be totally original since anything that happened in the EU is off limits!
Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.
Oh. My. God.
Uh, yes, we all understand that the current EU is no longer cannon. However, no one has said that it is off limits for the new films or other projects. Quite the contrary, it's been made pretty clear that the EU (or "Legends" as it is known) is fair game as inspiration and certainly not off-limits.
At least it will be interesting to see what Luke is going to be. Since the EU is off limits he won't be a Jedi, a Dark Jedi, a Jedi Master, train other Jedi's, won't mess with Rogue Squadron, won't fight leftover Empire forces, will never get married, will never have a son, won't be alive nor dead, or do any of the other things that he ever did in some shape or form in the EU.
It will be totally original since anything that happened in the EU is off limits!
Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.
Oh. My. God.
Uh, yes, we all understand that the current EU is no longer cannon. However, no one has said that it is off limits for the new films or other projects. Quite the contrary, it's been made pretty clear that the EU (or "Legends" as it is known) is fair game as inspiration and certainly not off-limits.
The point isn't that it's shrodinger canon. It's quite clear canon that the EU was wiped out. Unless it's pillaged for ideas by Lucasfilm later on, it for all intents and purpose is gone.
And I doubt they'll copy much. It's in much greater interests for them to make the new canon highly differential to coerce consumers into buying into both continuities now. It's a franchise's dream to toss out the old material as a discontinued alternate universe but keep the stuff in print to sell more and make more cash while also creating a new "main" canon so the hardcore fans will buy into both.
The Mouse is as much of a capitalist genius as he is cruel. While some of the EU needed to go due to horrific execution (Han Solo punching space otters for one), some of it was better then the original movies.
Uh, the discussion with the current head of Lucasfilm says otherwise. Everything that wasn't the movies, novelizations of the movies, and the 3D Clone Wars TV show was declared non-canon. She made it fairly clear cut in the discussion.
Oh. My. God.
Uh, yes, we all understand that the current EU is no longer cannon. However, no one has said that it is off limits for the new films or other projects. Quite the contrary, it's been made pretty clear that the EU (or "Legends" as it is known) is fair game as inspiration and certainly not off-limits.
At least it will be interesting to see what Luke is going to be. Since the EU is off limits he won't be a Jedi, a Dark Jedi, a Jedi Master, train other Jedi's, won't mess with Rogue Squadron, won't fight leftover Empire forces, will never get married, will never have a son, won't be alive nor dead, or do any of the other things that he ever did in some shape or form in the EU.
It will be totally original since anything that happened in the EU is off limits!
That's if he isn't hit by a bus off screen. Ford is the only one who still looks like Hollywood material. And even then Ford probably twisted Disney's arm so he'll only join up to get killed off because Ford has always wanted Han to die since ROTJ.
Wyzilla wrote: The point isn't that it's shrodinger canon.
No, the point is you keep repeating over and over again with absolute certainty that the EU is off-limits and gone forever and we'll never see it again. Which, as more than one person has explained to you, just isn't true.
It's quite clear canon that the EU was wiped out.
No, actually it isn't.
Unless it's pillaged for ideas by Lucasfilm later on
Which according to Lucasfilm will happen, because they've said as much.
it for all intents and purpose is gone.
No, actually it isn't.
And I doubt they'll copy much. It's in much greater interests for them to make the new canon highly differential to coerce consumers into buying into both continuities now. It's a franchise's dream to toss out the old material as a discontinued alternate universe but keep the stuff in print to sell more and make more cash while also creating a new "main" canon so the hardcore fans will buy into both.
No, it's their greater interest to make a new story instead of stick the awfulness that was most of the EU because most of it was awful from a film making perspective. If they did stick to the EU, a year from now you'd be on this same thread complaining about how they butchered it. They don't need to worry about gak to make people buy into it; Star Wars is the 5th highest grossing film series of all time and that doesn't even include any of the their merchandising and related properties. Besides, the writers have made it pretty clear that they are taking inspiration from the EU and other sources when writing new storylines.
The Mouse is as much of a capitalist genius as he is cruel. While some of the EU needed to go due to horrific execution (Han Solo punching space otters for one), some of it was better then the original movies.
Disagree on both counts. The EU needed to go, it was too bloated to ever make a successful translation to film.
d-usa wrote: Since the EU is off limits he won't be a Jedi
All other things aside, at the end of Return of the Jedi Luke was a Jedi, so "Legends" or no it is canon that Luke became one. It is even in the title of the movie and everything.
Everything that is not the movies, the 3D Clone Wars TV series, the original novelizations of the movies, and the new "official newcanon Star Wars Books" is canon. Everything else is gone.
Also, the new Marvel comics of SW. Those will also be canon.
Wyzilla wrote: Except they pushed the EU explicitly into its own continuity, Marvel style. We have no reason to ever believe that they will use anything from the EU in the new movies, and even if they do it is highly unlikely to resemble the original material.
Hence why Wookieepedia has divided up all of its pages into Legends and Canon tabs.
You mean like how Marvel has some of the same characters and storylines in both continuities?
You mean like how those characters are entirely unrelated to each other as well?
If you really believe that the characters in the Marvel comics universe and the Marvel film universe are entirely unrelated to each other, I don't know what to tell you.
Hordini wrote: If you really believe that the characters in the Marvel comics universe and the Marvel film universe are entirely unrelated to each other, I don't know what to tell you.
Not 'completely' unrelated, as the movie characters are clearly based on the comic version. But they're two completely separate continuities.
Hordini wrote: If you really believe that the characters in the Marvel comics universe and the Marvel film universe are entirely unrelated to each other, I don't know what to tell you.
Not 'completely' unrelated, as the movie characters are clearly based on the comic version. But they're two completely separate continuities.
Yes, with the MCU being heavily inspired by events and storylines from multiple continuities from the comics (especially the Ultimate imprint).
Very similar to what we are trying to explain to Wyzilla regarding what is likely going to happen with Star Wars: new stories with a mix of old and new characters with some of it based on preexisting lore (the EU) and some of it not.
I was wondering, if this hasn't been answered before, but if Storm troopers are not Clone troopers then why did the Imperial forces stop using them?
Budget cuts? Clone Facility destroyed? or was it a one series deal only?
Jehan-reznor wrote: I was wondering, if this hasn't been answered before, but if Storm troopers are not Clone troopers then why did the Imperial forces stop using them?
Budget cuts? Clone Facility destroyed? or was it a one series deal only?
It took a long time and lots of credits to make that batch so they probably either were unable or unwilling to keep making them. It is cheaper to train men than make them, probably.
Well, in the old continuity, there was a Clone rebellion by Kamino. So they moved cloning to other facilities and started using multiple templates.
Also, the Clones have several disadvantages.
1) While they age faster and you can get a soldier from an infant in half the time, they also still age faster. So the useful life of that soldier is half of what it would be for a non-clone. A 40 year old human is still in prime shape. a 40 year old clone is equivalent to an 80 year old human. the last thing you want in your army.
2) Identical genes, even if you have a half dozen templates, is a major problem. Someone could easily engineer a virus that attacked a specific weakness and have it take down every clone of that template it encountered.
Ultimately, the Empire has an entire galaxy of humans it can pull from. So man power shouldn't be a problem, thus cloning to save time doesn't make sense. And since normal humans last twice as long as a clone its a better long term investment.
Grey Templar wrote: Well, in the old continuity, there was a Clone rebellion by Kamino. So they moved cloning to other facilities and started using multiple templates.
Also, the Clones have several disadvantages.
1) While they age faster and you can get a soldier from an infant in half the time, they also still age faster. So the useful life of that soldier is half of what it would be for a non-clone. A 40 year old human is still in prime shape. a 40 year old clone is equivalent to an 80 year old human. the last thing you want in your army.
2) Identical genes, even if you have a half dozen templates, is a major problem. Someone could easily engineer a virus that attacked a specific weakness and have it take down every clone of that template it encountered.
Ultimately, the Empire has an entire galaxy of humans it can pull from. So man power shouldn't be a problem, thus cloning to save time doesn't make sense. And since normal humans last twice as long as a clone its a better long term investment.
It's been a ridiculously long time since I read any SW book material, but IIRC.... wasn't there a law made by the Senate at some point that made cloning and using clones illegal? Now, I've seen discussions relating to this "fact", but there's still the issues of the Empire is a fething massive machine, and they need constant bodies for that machine, so it's been "rumored" that even though it was illegal, the Empire was still using clones, either supplementing the ranks of real humans with clones, or using other means of "hiding" the clones.
The Emperor would never have allowed a law like that to get passed.
That depends, imo. The Emperor, we know is a Sith lord. Depending on what point of the story line you're at, no one else really knows what he is. He prefers operating his Sithiness from the shadows (How many times were Obi-Wan and Qui Gonn, or Yoda, or Anakin, or Sam Jackson, etc. RIGHT NEXT TO HIM!!! they must have rolled pretty gakky on their "Detect Evil" spells ), as such, He cannot do too much overtly, and probably would have seen the vetoing of an anti-clone bill as pushing too close to his personal boundary (as in, if he had vetoed, people may have begun to suspect)
skyth wrote: Is that 2nd edition? First edition Lightsabres had their own skill (as opposed to all the rest of the melee weapons) and if you did a successful parry with one, you cut a melee weapon apart or damaged the person trying to punch you. Nothing about hitting yourself on a miss.
Sense allowed you to parry (and redirect) blaster bolts and control increased sabre damage ( which started ar 4d not 5d if memory serves). Ran a campaign back in '88 or so. Unfortunately lost my books when I moved to PA :(
Yup, 2nd Edition. It's the one I have the books for, and the one that has the best rules IMHO. I looked at D20SW and my head spun 'round like the girl in the Exorcist. I've stayed away from Saga Edition, because it is still based on D20 and you cannot polish a turd into anything other than shiny crap. I looked at the FFGSW books and could not wrap my head around their nonsensical dice system. So I still roll with D6, 2nd Ed.
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Grey Templar wrote: I don't know of any law like that that was passed, but I highly doubt that such a law would have been passed.
The Emperor would never have allowed a law like that to get passed.
In the pre-prequel SW canon, there was a law against cloning and genetic technology, stemming from outrage and disgust at the horrors unleashed during the Clone Wars. SW Galaxies makes a direct reference to this in the instruction manual. The D6SW game books mentioned it several times. It was based on background notes Lucas had for Star Wars which were taken as Gospel until the prequels were released (did you know that Boba Fett originally wasn't a clone of Jango? He was the last surviving Mandalorian Warrior, who were mercenaries who fought for the 'Clone Masters' against the Jedi during the Clone Wars, at least according to the notes left over from ESB).
squidhills wrote: (did you know that Boba Fett originally wasn't a clone of Jango? He was the last surviving Mandalorian Warrior, who were mercenaries who fought for the 'Clone Masters' against the Jedi during the Clone Wars, at least according to the notes left over from ESB).
I always did hate this particular retcon. The Mandalorians are simply too badass to "need" clones, and in the old "Tales of Bounty Hunters" book, I remember Fett talking about his origins as a Journeyman Protector, and rise through the ranks of Mandalorians before finally being the last one standing.
But, that's all gone... I shall go sit in the corner, and drink by myself.
I always did hate this particular retcon. The Mandalorians are simply too badass to "need" clones, and in the old "Tales of Bounty Hunters" book, I remember Fett talking about his origins as a Journeyman Protector, and rise through the ranks of Mandalorians before finally being the last one standing.
But, that's all gone... I shall go sit in the corner, and drink by myself.
Just do what I do: pretend the prequels never happened. It's a lot easier now that Disney has eliminated the EU. My attitude is; if Disney can ignore good stuff like the Thrawn Trilogy, I can ignore horrid stuff like the prequels. Just tell people that the prequels were propaganda produced by the Empire in an effort to make the Jedi look completely useless and stupid.
It took a long time and lots of credits to make that batch so they probably either were unable or unwilling to keep making them. It is cheaper to train men than make them, probably.
I always did hate this particular retcon. The Mandalorians are simply too badass to "need" clones, and in the old "Tales of Bounty Hunters" book, I remember Fett talking about his origins as a Journeyman Protector, and rise through the ranks of Mandalorians before finally being the last one standing.
But, that's all gone... I shall go sit in the corner, and drink by myself.
Just do what I do: pretend the prequels never happened. It's a lot easier now that Disney has eliminated the EU. My attitude is; if Disney can ignore good stuff like the Thrawn Trilogy, I can ignore horrid stuff like the prequels. Just tell people that the prequels were propaganda produced by the Empire in an effort to make the Jedi look completely useless and stupid.
As a non-tru-fan I don't give a toss about the canon and EU and stuff. I just want the films to be cool and take me back to the original trilogy including "Han shot first", minus Ewoks, and forget about episode 1 to 3.
Kilkrazy wrote: As a non-tru-fan I don't give a toss about the canon and EU and stuff. I just want the films to be cool and take me back to the original trilogy including "Han shot first", minus Ewoks, and forget about episode 1 to 3.
That's pretty much my position as well, even though I consider myself a true fan.
Cloning are also an expensive and time consuming way to assemble an army.
The served a purpose when Palpatine had to raise a force in secret in order to take on the Jedi and establish the core of the empire. But once the Empire is in place it's probably just plain easier to instead recruit from the human populace.
Yes I hated the whole think about them being clones of Jango Fett as well.
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