Xenomancers wrote: It is not a legal roll if all of the units within the combined unit are eligible to make the roll.
Explain how it's not a legal roll and back up with cited rules, please. Others have demonstrated how it is legal, but nobody has found a hard rule that says it's not.
Except that it is stll being discussed. Rolling for the purifiers alone causes at least 2 issues, either of which breaks a rule and thus is not a legal roll unless your rule explciitly allows you to break said rule.
Both of those issues have been addressed and explained within the context of the rules by those arguing for them. Those arguing against keep bringing up the same points and ignoring the explanation or are reaching for semantics to explain why this one word invalidates everything, and even that has been explained.
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Unit1126PLL wrote: So I embark the Purifiers into the Pod in DS Reserves. -> Allowed.
I roll (per the RoT rule) for the purifiers to arrive turn 1. -> Allowed.
What happens when I pass the roll?
According to the naysayers the drop pod refuses to move and sits there, lecturing the purifiers on the use of the words "arrive" and "deploy"
Xenomancers wrote: Should state turn 2+. only drop pod assualt allows turn 1 arrival and at this point in the reserves phase those have already been taken into account. In any case - has no effect on the argument - the point is the drop pod is not eligible to arrive turn 1...
Your statement is correct if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
It's like you haven't read that rule at all or something.
The combined units reserve roll rule assumes that the roll you are making is a legal roll. It is not a legal roll if all of the units within the combined unit are eligible to make the roll. That is my interpretation.
nosferatu1001 wrote: No, its why it isnt a quote. It is, however, a clear paraphrase of the pertinent bit to this disucssion
To be more precise: the pod only has permission to roll frmo turn 2 onwards
This is incorrect. Please, be exactly precise.
Pods that aren't part of DPA have permission to roll "as normal". Turn 2 is never mentioned. At all. You're making this up and confusing the issue by doing so.
What's "as normal" when a unit is allowed to roll on turn one?
The DP unit isnt allowed to roll turn one, unless it is part of the half, rounded up. It never can roll under the RoT rule, you have to select the purifiers to do that. I've then explained the problems that causes, however you fail to address that part. Maybe address everything this time?
I have. Maybe read the entire thread this time?
Is this pod part of the half, rounded up? No
What turn is "normal" for it? 2
Again, be precise yourself.
What is normal for the Combined Reserve Unit? One of the units requires you to roll turn one. You've failed to cite denial of this permission, instead you made up a rule saying that Pods not part of DPA must roll on turn 2 (onwards).
Since there's no restriction of "turn 2" (despite your multiple assurances there is) rolling on turn one - as normal for a Combined Unit containing an RoT unit - breaks no rules.
confoo22 - no, they have not been addressed. Not succintly enough to be convincing, for a start.
The rules do not give permission for you to ignore the turn requirement on individual component units of the combined units. They are, in fact, utterly silent in this regard. Meaning there is no permission to break these rules.
The rules for combined units require you to deploy the unit you rolled for, as per the DS rules. Given you cannot perform this action AND cmply with the DPA rules, you have broken a rule - and have no permission to do so.
So instead of saying these have been proven, prove how exactly how you roll for purifiers, but change "them" to be the drop pod. The rules do not allow it, but please - page and graph.
BlackTalos wrote: [Yes they are, but the Rules for Deep Strike ask that you deploy the Unit you rolled for:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
And in this case the rules for Reserves will refer you to combined units which will tell you that any combined unit must arrive all at once and then will be deployed via deep strike using the modified drop pod rules.
Correct, and these rules require you "First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive," of the Unit you just rolled for (The Purifiers)
Feel like going in circles yet?
confoo22 wrote: You don't actually quote the rule I reference here. If you can spell it out and show where my statement is incorrect please do.
"all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)".
This rule says that all models must have DS (Purifiers do not), and that upon placing the Unit (Drop Pod) in reserves, it goes into Deep Strike Reserve.
This does not mean that ALL unit in "Deep Strike Reserve" are arriving by Deep Strike.
Only that units arriving by Deep Strike must be in Deep Strike Reserve.
A Includes B.
It does not mean B must include A.
Simple logic.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So I embark the Purifiers into the Pod in DS Reserves. -> Allowed.
I roll (per the RoT rule) for the purifiers to arrive turn 1. -> Allowed.
What happens when I pass the roll?
You follow the rules for Deep Strike:
You deploy (on the table) the Unit you rolled for.
At that point, you realise this is not possible, because they're in the Pod, so they can't be put on the table until the Pod is deployed (but you didn't roll for it, so how would you do that?)
Unit1126PLL wrote: So I embark the Purifiers into the Pod in DS Reserves. -> Allowed.
I roll (per the RoT rule) for the purifiers to arrive turn 1. -> Allowed.
What happens when I pass the roll?
You follow the rules for Deep Strike:
You deploy (on the table) the Unit you rolled for.
At that point, you realise this is not possible, because they're in the Pod, so they can't be put on the table until the Pod is deployed (but you didn't roll for it, so how would you do that?)
So how do the Purifiers come on from reserve then?
Unit1126PLL wrote: So I embark the Purifiers into the Pod in DS Reserves. -> Allowed.
I roll (per the RoT rule) for the purifiers to arrive turn 1. -> Allowed.
What happens when I pass the roll?
You follow the rules for Deep Strike:
You deploy (on the table) the Unit you rolled for.
At that point, you realise this is not possible, because they're in the Pod, so they can't be put on the table until the Pod is deployed (but you didn't roll for it, so how would you do that?)
So how do the Purifiers come on from reserve then?
You roll for their transport vehicle, obviously.. As you are allowed to do within the Combined Unit rule
Only then have you complied with ALL rules. Not just those you want to comply with.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So I embark the Purifiers into the Pod in DS Reserves. -> Allowed.
I roll (per the RoT rule) for the purifiers to arrive turn 1. -> Allowed.
What happens when I pass the roll?
You follow the rules for Deep Strike:
You deploy (on the table) the Unit you rolled for.
At that point, you realise this is not possible, because they're in the Pod, so they can't be put on the table until the Pod is deployed (but you didn't roll for it, so how would you do that?)
So how do the Purifiers come on from reserve then?
You roll for their transport vehicle, obviously.. As you are allowed to do within the Combined Unit rule
Only then have you complied with ALL rules. Not just those you want to comply with.
Isn't the RoT rule more specific than the regular rules for reserves, and so would override the more general rule in the case that there is a direct rules conflict (as in this case)?
By the way, to make it clear what "my side" is:
- Combined Reserve means you have to roll once for all of the Units.
- And/Or refers to having an IC and Transport / an IC or Transport. Not who you can roll for: you only roll for the "Combined Unit.
- This Combined Unit follows the rules for DS: The Unit (T+Passengers) is Deep Striking, but only the Transport is arriving "by Deep Strike", while the Passengers are arriving "by disembarking", but the entire (combined) Unit is Deep Striking.
Lastly and more importantly:
- I am unsure as to whether RoT would allow the Combined Unit to roll on Turn 1, or not. Rigeld made a good point that the answer is "Yes", but don't want to get involved in "Detachment rules" until they fix that.
Unit - it is not more specific, as it fails to specify that it can allow non-NSF detachment units to arrive alongside, or that the roll for the NSF unit can be made and non-NSF units are assumed to have the same value for the turn they can roll from.
If you CAN roll JUST for the purifiers, you cannot do so and comply with the DS AND DPA rules at the same time. Meaning you cannot roll JUST for the purifiers.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So according to my example, what happens when you pass the Turn 1 RoT reserve roll for the Purifiers?
You wouldn't be able to make that roll if they weren't in a drop pod. Put them in a pod and RAW allows you to make a roll for ROT -however deep strike rules state you must place a modle from the unit you rolled for and deep strike rules do not allow you to place a unit without deep strike on the table from deep strike reserves...you have to roll for the pod in this case- which is ineligible turn 1 because it can not claim ROT. IMO - this debate is settled.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Isn't the RoT rule more specific than the regular rules for reserves, and so would override the more general rule in the case that there is a direct rules conflict (as in this case)?
Very possible, but not part of my participation.
I am only correcting some interpretations that are proven incorrect:
- You can roll for Passengers to arrive by Deep Strike
- Passengers are arriving "by Deep Strike"
Well the purifiers still get to come on from reserve or the game breaks. Either their specific rule overrides the reserve rules, or RoT works for no unit.
It is possible they could come out of Deep Strike Reserve by walking on, but that has even less support than arriving via Pod.
Unit1126PLL wrote: So I embark the Purifiers into the Pod in DS Reserves. -> Allowed.
I roll (per the RoT rule) for the purifiers to arrive turn 1. -> Allowed.
What happens when I pass the roll?
You follow the rules for Deep Strike:
You deploy (on the table) the Unit you rolled for.
At that point, you realise this is not possible, because they're in the Pod, so they can't be put on the table until the Pod is deployed (but you didn't roll for it, so how would you do that?)
So how do the Purifiers come on from reserve then?
You roll for their transport vehicle, obviously.. As you are allowed to do within the Combined Unit rule
Only then have you complied with ALL rules. Not just those you want to comply with.
I just want to say...Duh...but the wording is such that I can see one would want to try to argue this case so it's not quite - duh.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
Ok. So we have a Drop Pod with Purifiers. The Drop Pod is most certainly a Deep Striking unit so we need to refer to the Reserves rule to determine when it can arrive.
Combined Reserve Units
... Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
So here it defines a unit inside a transport in reserves as a combined unit. A Drop Pod with Purifiers is a combined unit and must arrive together. You roll for the combined unit (see bolded) by rolling for the unit AND/OR it's transport. Due to poor wording, this gives me many options for rolling for the combined unit.
I can do any of the following to determine of a combined unit arrives from Reserves:
Roll for the transport (Drop Pod).
Roll for the unit (Purifiers).
Roll for both.
I choose to roll for the Purifiers.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Formation can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.
Here we see that Purifiers are placed in Deep Strike Reserves via the Drop Pod Assault rule. Then via the RoT rule, they have permission to make a Reserve Roll from turn 1 because they are in Deep Strike Reserve. So, via the Combined Reserve Units rule, I can roll for the unit (Purifiers) to see see if the combined unit (Purifiers and Drop Pod) may arrive from Reserves. So there I have permission to roll on turn 1.
Now that we've determined the combined unit (Drop Pod and Purifiers) are ready to arrive from Reserves, we can go back to the Deep Strike rule and continue from where we left off. That's when the Drop Pod's rules kick in again in order to show how you Deep Strike a Drop Pod with models inside. (I don't have those rules available but I'm sure they're common enough since Drop Pods are used all the time.)
I've followed all the rules linearly and can't find a conflict.
All these nay sayers either need to shut up and move on, or point out a rule, "page and graph ", where it actually denies the pro's their rules.
Black/nos/xeno, you three are the only ones still arguing against, and it is just out of the inabioity to accept that you are wrong. The three rules that allow this to work have been quoted on at least 8 out of 11 pages, and all of your responses have lacked any actual rules support, all that you've managed to do is clutter up the raw answers, and make it harder for anyone to find the right answers with a simple search.
No reply to this post is needed, unless you have a raw quote from the rulebook telling me why I can't roll for a component of a combined reserve unit, and when it arrives, deploy it in the order of pod/purifiers. Nothing you posted so far has said that I can not do that. Any further posts of the same will just serve to keep this thread foingf in circles.
You MUST deploy "them" - the purifiers - by placing one model. Failing to do breaks the DS rules, following breaks the DPA rules.
You roll for the combined unit - what allows you to use part of the combined unit to set when you can turn up? Nothing in the combined unit rules allows you to inspect each unit component, reveal when it is able to roll, and set the "best" one as the roll and turn for the combined unit.
You havent given any RAW that allows you to break the DS rules by deploying the pod first, of course. You handwave that nugget away.
greytalon666 wrote: All these nay sayers either need to shut up and move on, or point out a rule, "page and graph ", where it actually denies the pro's their rules.
Black/nos/xeno, you three are the only ones still arguing against, and it is just out of the inabioity to accept that you are wrong. The three rules that allow this to work have been quoted on at least 8 out of 11 pages, and all of your responses have lacked any actual rules support, all that you've managed to do is clutter up the raw answers, and make it harder for anyone to find the right answers with a simple search.
No reply to this post is needed, unless you have a raw quote from the rulebook telling me why I can't roll for a component of a combined reserve unit, and when it arrives, deploy it in the order of pod/purifiers. Nothing you posted so far has said that I can not do that. Any further posts of the same will just serve to keep this thread foingf in circles.
Because rolling for "a component" is forcing it to deploy on the table. RaW:
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
You MUST deploy "them" - the purifiers - by placing one model. Failing to do breaks the DS rules, following breaks the DPA rules.
You roll for the combined unit - what allows you to use part of the combined unit to set when you can turn up? Nothing in the combined unit rules allows you to inspect each unit component, reveal when it is able to roll, and set the "best" one as the roll and turn for the combined unit.
You havent given any RAW that allows you to break the DS rules by deploying the pod first, of course. You handwave that nugget away.
Right, but you haven't given a rule that prevents the Purifiers from arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, either, except that they have no mechanism to do so.
Except that they do, which is how they got into DS reserves in the first place.
But they can't bring it in because of a General Rule saying when Reserves arrive, so they don't come in.
So their specific rule just got overridden by a General Rule.
That changes my understanding of how 40k works pretty dramatically.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
Ok. So we have a Drop Pod with Purifiers. The Drop Pod is most certainly a Deep Striking unit so we need to refer to the Reserves rule to determine when it can arrive. Whichever Unit rolls for the arrival will be deployed as follows.
Combined Reserve Units
... Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
So here it defines a unit inside a transport in reserves as a combined unit. A Drop Pod with Purifiers is a combined unit and must arrive together. You roll for the combined unit (see bolded) by rolling for the unit AND/OR it's transport. Due to poor wording, this gives me many options for rolling for the combined unit.
I can do any of the following to determine of a combined unit arrives from Reserves:
Roll for the transport (Drop Pod).
Roll for the unit (Purifiers).
Roll for both.
I choose to roll for the Purifiers.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Formation can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.
Here we see that Purifiers are placed in Deep Strike Reserves via the Drop Pod Assault rule. Then via the RoT rule, they have permission to make a Reserve Roll from turn 1 because they are in Deep Strike Reserve. So, via the Combined Reserve Units rule, I can roll for the unit (Purifiers) to see see if the combined unit (Purifiers and Drop Pod) may arrive from Reserves. So there I have permission to roll on turn 1.
Now that we've determined the combined unit (Drop Pod and Purifiers) are ready to arrive from Reserves, we can go back to the Deep Strike rule and continue from where we left off. (We now place the Purifiers that rolled to arrive on the table, per "deploy them as follows")
Oh snap, i can't continue with the following, the passengers are already on the table:
That's when the Drop Pod's rules kick in again in order to show how you Deep Strike a Drop Pod with models inside. (I don't have those rules available but I'm sure they're common enough since Drop Pods are used all the time.)
I've followed all the rules linearly and can't find a conflict.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
Ok. So we have a Drop Pod with Purifiers. The Drop Pod is most certainly a Deep Striking unit so we need to refer to the Reserves rule to determine when it can arrive. Whichever Unit rolls for the arrival will be deployed as follows.
Combined Reserve Units
... Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
So here it defines a unit inside a transport in reserves as a combined unit. A Drop Pod with Purifiers is a combined unit and must arrive together. You roll for the combined unit (see bolded) by rolling for the unit AND/OR it's transport. Due to poor wording, this gives me many options for rolling for the combined unit.
I can do any of the following to determine of a combined unit arrives from Reserves:
Roll for the transport (Drop Pod).
Roll for the unit (Purifiers).
Roll for both.
I choose to roll for the Purifiers.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Formation can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.
Here we see that Purifiers are placed in Deep Strike Reserves via the Drop Pod Assault rule. Then via the RoT rule, they have permission to make a Reserve Roll from turn 1 because they are in Deep Strike Reserve. So, via the Combined Reserve Units rule, I can roll for the unit (Purifiers) to see see if the combined unit (Purifiers and Drop Pod) may arrive from Reserves. So there I have permission to roll on turn 1.
Now that we've determined the combined unit (Drop Pod and Purifiers) are ready to arrive from Reserves, we can go back to the Deep Strike rule and continue from where we left off. (We now place the Purifiers that rolled to arrive on the table, per "deploy them as follows")
Oh snap, i can't continue with the following, the passengers are already on the table:
That's when the Drop Pod's rules kick in again in order to show how you Deep Strike a Drop Pod with models inside. (I don't have those rules available but I'm sure they're common enough since Drop Pods are used all the time.)
I've followed all the rules linearly and can't find a conflict.
I've corrected your post in red above.
So are you saying the Purifiers Deep Strike independently of the pod?
You MUST deploy "them" - the purifiers - by placing one model. Failing to do breaks the DS rules, following breaks the DPA rules.
You roll for the combined unit - what allows you to use part of the combined unit to set when you can turn up? Nothing in the combined unit rules allows you to inspect each unit component, reveal when it is able to roll, and set the "best" one as the roll and turn for the combined unit.
You havent given any RAW that allows you to break the DS rules by deploying the pod first, of course. You handwave that nugget away.
Right, but you haven't given a rule that prevents the Purifiers from arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, either, except that they have no mechanism to do so.
Except that they do, which is how they got into DS reserves in the first place.
Slightly incorrect. They do arrive from Deep Strike Reserves: they disembarked from the Drop Pod.
They got into "Deep Strike Reserves" because the Drop Pod rules say so.
You MUST deploy "them" - the purifiers - by placing one model. Failing to do breaks the DS rules, following breaks the DPA rules.
You roll for the combined unit - what allows you to use part of the combined unit to set when you can turn up? Nothing in the combined unit rules allows you to inspect each unit component, reveal when it is able to roll, and set the "best" one as the roll and turn for the combined unit.
You havent given any RAW that allows you to break the DS rules by deploying the pod first, of course. You handwave that nugget away.
Right, but you haven't given a rule that prevents the Purifiers from arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, either, except that they have no mechanism to do so.
Except that they do, which is how they got into DS reserves in the first place.
Slightly incorrect. They do arrive from Deep Strike Reserves: they disembarked from the Drop Pod.
They got into "Deep Strike Reserves" because the Drop Pod rules say so.
Wait, so they can bring the pod on Turn 1? I thought you were against that position.
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
Ok. So we have a Drop Pod with Purifiers. The Drop Pod is most certainly a Deep Striking unit so we need to refer to the Reserves rule to determine when it can arrive. Whichever Unit rolls for the arrival will be deployed as follows.
Combined Reserve Units
... Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
So here it defines a unit inside a transport in reserves as a combined unit. A Drop Pod with Purifiers is a combined unit and must arrive together. You roll for the combined unit (see bolded) by rolling for the unit AND/OR it's transport. Due to poor wording, this gives me many options for rolling for the combined unit.
I can do any of the following to determine of a combined unit arrives from Reserves:
Roll for the transport (Drop Pod).
Roll for the unit (Purifiers).
Roll for both.
I choose to roll for the Purifiers.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Formation can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.
Here we see that Purifiers are placed in Deep Strike Reserves via the Drop Pod Assault rule. Then via the RoT rule, they have permission to make a Reserve Roll from turn 1 because they are in Deep Strike Reserve. So, via the Combined Reserve Units rule, I can roll for the unit (Purifiers) to see see if the combined unit (Purifiers and Drop Pod) may arrive from Reserves. So there I have permission to roll on turn 1.
Now that we've determined the combined unit (Drop Pod and Purifiers) are ready to arrive from Reserves, we can go back to the Deep Strike rule and continue from where we left off. (We now place the Purifiers that rolled to arrive on the table, per "deploy them as follows")
Oh snap, i can't continue with the following, the passengers are already on the table:
That's when the Drop Pod's rules kick in again in order to show how you Deep Strike a Drop Pod with models inside. (I don't have those rules available but I'm sure they're common enough since Drop Pods are used all the time.)
I've followed all the rules linearly and can't find a conflict.
I've corrected your post in red above.
So are you saying the Purifiers Deep Strike independently of the pod?
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
BlackTalos wrote: [Yes they are, but the Rules for Deep Strike ask that you deploy the Unit you rolled for:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
And in this case the rules for Reserves will refer you to combined units which will tell you that any combined unit must arrive all at once and then will be deployed via deep strike using the modified drop pod rules.
Correct, and these rules require you "First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive," of the Unit you just rolled for (The Purifiers)
Feel like going in circles yet?
We're not going in circles, you keep going back to your starting point without a connection. Those rules are superseded by the drop pod because the purifiers arrive in their transport a la the combined units reserve rule. The rule you're quoting does not take effect in this case because they are in a drop pod and are governed by the rules of arriving by that drop pod. So instead of the infantry being the first model in the unit placed, it's the transport, just like it is in a thousand other games, except that it comes in on turn one instead.
BlackTalos wrote:"all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)".
This rule says that all models must have DS (Purifiers do not), and that upon placing the Unit (Drop Pod) in reserves, it goes into Deep Strike Reserve.
This does not mean that ALL unit in "Deep Strike Reserve" are arriving by Deep Strike.
Only that units arriving by Deep Strike must be in Deep Strike Reserve.
A Includes B.
It does not mean B must include A.
Simple logic.
How can you say that with the rule right there? It's a combined unit, so the whole unit arrives from DS Reserves, so the whole unit is arriving from Deep Strike Here's the part of the rule that states that: "it [the unit] will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve". There it is, Deep Strike is the same as Deep Strike Reserve. The terms are interchangeable, this part of the sentence spells that out for you. As per the rule, they want you to know that arriving from DS Reserve is the same as arriving by Deep Strike. There is no difference.
nosferatu1001 wrote:The rules do not give permission for you to ignore the turn requirement on individual component units of the combined units. They are, in fact, utterly silent in this regard. Meaning there is no permission to break these rules.
The permission is given in the NSF detachment rules for the purifiers to roll on turn one. Since it's a combined unit everything arrives at the same time. This is not a contested point.
nosferatu1001 wrote:The rules for combined units require you to deploy the unit you rolled for, as per the DS rules. Given you cannot perform this action AND cmply with the DPA rules, you have broken a rule - and have no permission to do so.
You absolutely can comply with both, as I've explained numerous times throughout this thread.
nosferatu1001 wrote:So instead of saying these have been proven, prove how exactly how you roll for purifiers, but change "them" to be the drop pod. The rules do not allow it, but please - page and graph.
Please read back through previous posts because I've cited rules, explained process and shown several times how this is possible.
Nos, you are on ignore, but people quoting you are not. Also, ignore just collapses your posts, not removes them entirely, so I cash always see when you are failing to add anything new to the discussion.
When a combined unit arrives, the controlling player deploys that combined unit in the order he chooses, because when multiple things happen at the exact same time, controlling player is always given permission to choose the order.
As has been said many times, you can't place the purifiers first, so obviously you place their transport first, then the purifiers.
You MUST deploy "them" - the purifiers - by placing one model. Failing to do breaks the DS rules, following breaks the DPA rules.
You roll for the combined unit - what allows you to use part of the combined unit to set when you can turn up? Nothing in the combined unit rules allows you to inspect each unit component, reveal when it is able to roll, and set the "best" one as the roll and turn for the combined unit.
You havent given any RAW that allows you to break the DS rules by deploying the pod first, of course. You handwave that nugget away.
Right, but you haven't given a rule that prevents the Purifiers from arriving from Deep Strike Reserves, either, except that they have no mechanism to do so.
Except that they do, which is how they got into DS reserves in the first place.
Slightly incorrect. They do arrive from Deep Strike Reserves: they disembarked from the Drop Pod.
They got into "Deep Strike Reserves" because the Drop Pod rules say so.
Wait, so they can bring the pod on Turn 1? I thought you were against that position.
Possibly. I do not want to get involved in the mess that is whether RoT applies or not.....
But i would insist that rolling only for the Purifiers is incorrect. Just as saying that they arrive "by Deep Strike" is incorrect.
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod. I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers. The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
Edit: Let me ask you this - if I have a Tactical Squad in a Pod, and I say "I'm rolling for the Tactical Squad" are you going to go through the same rigmarole about how "You must put a Tac Marine down..." etc because I rolled for them instead of their pod?
greytalon666 wrote: Nos, you are on ignore, but people quoting you are not. Also, ignore just collapses your posts, not removes them entirely, so I cash always see when you are failing to add anything new to the discussion.
When a combined unit arrives, the controlling player deploys that combined unit in the order he chooses, because when multiple things happen at the exact same time, controlling player is always given permission to choose the order.
As has been said many times, you can't place the purifiers first, so obviously you place their transport first, then the purifiers.
You can't deploy the purifiers at all. They are embarked upon a vehicle and cannot be placed anywhere, ever.
Once the Pod has followed all the correct rules for arrival, they may disembark. Pod Rules:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
greytalon666 wrote: Nos, you are on ignore, but people quoting you are not. Also, ignore just collapses your posts, not removes them entirely, so I cash always see when you are failing to add anything new to the discussion.
When a combined unit arrives, the controlling player deploys that combined unit in the order he chooses, because when multiple things happen at the exact same time, controlling player is always given permission to choose the order.
As has been said many times, you can't place the purifiers first, so obviously you place their transport first, then the purifiers.
You can't deploy the purifiers at all. They are embarked upon a vehicle and cannot be placed anywhere, ever.
Once the Pod has followed all the correct rules for arrival, they may disembark. Pod Rules: "Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Definitely not simultaneous.
If I deploy a rhino with a unit inside, have I deployed said unit? Or can I deploy them somewhere else as well, as they have not deployed?
That is to say, deploying a transport with a unit in it is deploying both units. Then, the unit may disembark (after it has deployed, albeit immediately afterwards).
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
Ok. So we have a Drop Pod with Purifiers. The Drop Pod is most certainly a Deep Striking unit so we need to refer to the Reserves rule to determine when it can arrive. Whichever Unit rolls for the arrival will be deployed as follows.
Combined Reserve Units
... Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
So here it defines a unit inside a transport in reserves as a combined unit. A Drop Pod with Purifiers is a combined unit and must arrive together. You roll for the combined unit (see bolded) by rolling for the unit AND/OR it's transport. Due to poor wording, this gives me many options for rolling for the combined unit.
I can do any of the following to determine of a combined unit arrives from Reserves:
Roll for the transport (Drop Pod).
Roll for the unit (Purifiers).
Roll for both.
I choose to roll for the Purifiers.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Formation can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.
Here we see that Purifiers are placed in Deep Strike Reserves via the Drop Pod Assault rule. Then via the RoT rule, they have permission to make a Reserve Roll from turn 1 because they are in Deep Strike Reserve. So, via the Combined Reserve Units rule, I can roll for the unit (Purifiers) to see see if the combined unit (Purifiers and Drop Pod) may arrive from Reserves. So there I have permission to roll on turn 1.
Now that we've determined the combined unit (Drop Pod and Purifiers) are ready to arrive from Reserves, we can go back to the Deep Strike rule and continue from where we left off. (We now place the Purifiers that rolled to arrive on the table, per "deploy them as follows")
Oh snap, i can't continue with the following, the passengers are already on the table:
That's when the Drop Pod's rules kick in again in order to show how you Deep Strike a Drop Pod with models inside. (I don't have those rules available but I'm sure they're common enough since Drop Pods are used all the time.)
I've followed all the rules linearly and can't find a conflict.
I've corrected your post in red above.
Drop Pods and their units roll for reserves together, as per Combined Reserve Units rule. Also, as per the Combined Reserve Units rule, I may make Reserve Rolls for the Purifiers to determine if the combined unit is arriving.
'them' refers to the combined unit. I chose to embark the Purifiers onto the Drop Pod (thats how they got into Deep Strike Reserves in the first place). So to deploy the Purifiers, I must first deploy the Drop Pod. That goes without saying. What you're suggesting doesn't make sense and breaks Drop Pods.
greytalon666 wrote: Nos, you are on ignore, but people quoting you are not. Also, ignore just collapses your posts, not removes them entirely, so I cash always see when you are failing to add anything new to the discussion.
When a combined unit arrives, the controlling player deploys that combined unit in the order he chooses, because when multiple things happen at the exact same time, controlling player is always given permission to choose the order.
As has been said many times, you can't place the purifiers first, so obviously you place their transport first, then the purifiers.
You can't deploy the purifiers at all. They are embarked upon a vehicle and cannot be placed anywhere, ever.
Once the Pod has followed all the correct rules for arrival, they may disembark. Pod Rules:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Definitely not simultaneous.
So as has been discussed and proven raw, I can roll for just the purifiers, then, because bof the pods rule I have to place the pod out of that combined unit first. Still functionally the same thing.
You can't deploy the purifiers at all. They are embarked upon a vehicle and cannot be placed anywhere, ever.
By this logic any unit in any transport is not considered deployed the turn they come on from reserves. Is that the claim you're making? If not then please explain why it's different in this one case...
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod. I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers. The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway? I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first: "Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark." Purifiers cannot deploy first. Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
BlackTalos wrote: As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first: "Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark." Purifiers cannot deploy first. Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion: You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
Nowhere in the pod rules does it say the Unit deploys second. It says disembarks. A unit can still be deployed while it's embarked.
Therefore the pod and it's embarked passengers arrive simultaneously, immediately followed by the disembarkation of said passengers.
Think of it this way: While embarked in their transport, the unit and their transport are effectively one model comprising both units. If you deploy that one Rhino (or drop pod, or Wave Serpent) you've deployed both units, literally at the same time.
Later, (in the case of the pod, "immediately,") the unit may disembark, once again becoming two units made up of a Rhino/Pod/Wave Serpent/whatever and an infantry squad made up of Purifiers/Tactical Marines/Dire Avengers.
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway?
I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Purifiers cannot deploy first.
Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion:
You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
Yes, you can. The pod can then be placed first thanks AGAIN to combined reserves.
You can't deploy the purifiers at all. They are embarked upon a vehicle and cannot be placed anywhere, ever.
By this logic any unit in any transport is not considered deployed the turn they come on from reserves. Is that the claim you're making? If not then please explain why it's different in this one case...
They are, per the RaW:
"Models can be deployed ‘inside’ buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone, subject to their Transport Capacity."
and
"During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, (...) you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together."
They are deployed "embarked". Since before you start the game. Is a Unit deployed inside a Rhino Deployed on the Table?
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway?
I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Purifiers cannot deploy first.
Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion:
You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
So if I have a modifier that lets me change the reserve rolls by one for the units in my detachment, and one of those units is in a drop pod from another detachment, I cannot modify the roll or else it'll be illegal to deploy that unit in the drop pod?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BlackTalos wrote: "During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, (...) you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together."
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway?
I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Purifiers cannot deploy first.
Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion:
You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
Yes, you can. The pod can then be placed first thanks AGAIN to combined reserves.
No because the rules for Deep Strike need you to:
"place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position"
How do you do this for the Purifiers that rolled?
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway?
I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Purifiers cannot deploy first.
Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion:
You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
Yes, you can. The pod can then be placed first thanks AGAIN to combined reserves.
No because the rules for Deep Strike need you to:
"place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position"
How do you do this for the Purifiers that rolled?
It isn't, but thankfully that part is overridden by the pod rules.
Or won't you let me bring in my podding Tactical Squad?
BlackTalos wrote: No because the rules for Deep Strike need you to:
"place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position"
Can you address why, exactly, the drop pod rules do not supersede these rules since the transport arrives at the same time as the unit you're rolling for that is embarked on that transport? You keep making this claim and then ignoring that statement which seems to overturn it.
No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
You haven't shown that it's impossible. You've just shown that (assuming RoT does not override the normal reserve rules), the game breaks when you roll for the purifiers.
I agree, but my solution is that they bring the Pod with them, per the Combined Units rule, and the pod is placed first, because they're embarked upon it so deploying the pod is exactly the same as deploying them. It's the rules for the Pod that override the normal DS "place one model from the unit, etc." rules, not RoT or the Purifiers.
What happens when a rule breaks the game? Do you play that rule anyway?
I can prove to you that i can deploy a Commander on top of a Rhino, which will break the game. Shall we continue playing with my Commander on top of the Rhino?
As for the combined Unit arrival: they arrive together.
But they do not, and cannot deploy together. As per the pod rules above. The Pod always deploys first:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Purifiers cannot deploy first.
Deep Strike requires you deploy what you rolled for.
Conclusion:
You cannot roll for the Purifiers.
Yes, you can. The pod can then be placed first thanks AGAIN to combined reserves.
No because the rules for Deep Strike need you to:
"place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position"
How do you do this for the Purifiers that rolled?
I rolled for the combined unit, which includes a transport and embarked models. I place the Drop Pod as per those rules. Once I roll for scatter, all requirements are met because the entire combined unit is deployed.
Okay, i see that the 2 'deploy' have caused confusion for everyone.
You deploy models before Turn 1. Passengers are deployed "embarked", whether on the Table or in reserves.
When a Unit arrives by Deep Strike, it has to roll: Roll for whatever you want. Whichever Unit that was then follows these rules:
deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table,(...) • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it.
So: Resolve the above. Who are you rolling for? they will follow the rules quoted (and "deploy")
nosferatu1001 wrote: You roll for the combined unit - what allows you to use part of the combined unit to set when you can turn up? Nothing in the combined unit rules allows you to inspect each unit component, reveal when it is able to roll, and set the "best" one as the roll and turn for the combined unit.
I must make a Reserve roll for a combined unit. How do I determine what that roll is?
Ignore what the makeup of the combined unit is - cite the rules telling you what and when to roll.
BlackTalos wrote: Okay, i see that the 2 'deploy' have caused confusion for everyone.
You deploy models before Turn 1. Passengers are deployed "embarked", whether on the Table or in reserves.
When a Unit arrives by Deep Strike, it has to roll: Roll for whatever you want. Whichever Unit that was then follows these rules:
deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table,(...) • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it.
So: Resolve the above. Who are you rolling for? they will follow the rules quoted (and "deploy")
Can you address why, exactly, the drop pod rules do not supersede these rules since the transport arrives at the same time as the unit you're rolling for that is embarked on that transport? You keep making this claim and then ignoring that statement which seems to overturn it.
BlackTalos wrote: Okay, i see that the 2 'deploy' have caused confusion for everyone.
You deploy models before Turn 1. Passengers are deployed "embarked", whether on the Table or in reserves.
When a Unit arrives by Deep Strike, it has to roll: Roll for whatever you want. Whichever Unit that was then follows these rules:
deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table,(...) • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it.
So: Resolve the above. Who are you rolling for? they will follow the rules quoted (and "deploy")
And more nun UHS, followed by yes I can because (raw quotes).
Talos, the rule (not plural) you have been trying to force down peoples throats as the end all be all of dsr, has been proven to be superceeded by other rules.
BlackTalos wrote: Okay, i see that the 2 'deploy' have caused confusion for everyone.
You deploy models before Turn 1. Passengers are deployed "embarked", whether on the Table or in reserves.
When a Unit arrives by Deep Strike, it has to roll: Roll for whatever you want. Whichever Unit that was then follows these rules:
deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table,(...) • Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it.
So: Resolve the above. Who are you rolling for? they will follow the rules quoted (and "deploy")
I'm rolling for the combined unit.
Correct! I've actually been saying this too!
Like Here:
BlackTalos wrote: By the way, to make it clear what "my side" is:
- Combined Reserve means you have to roll once for all of the Units.
- And/Or refers to having an IC and Transport / an IC or Transport. Not who you can roll for: you only roll for the "Combined Unit. - This Combined Unit follows the rules for DS: The Unit (T+Passengers) is Deep Striking, but only the Transport is arriving "by Deep Strike", while the Passengers are arriving "by disembarking", but the entire (combined) Unit is Deep Striking.
Lastly and more importantly:
- I am unsure as to whether RoT would allow the Combined Unit to roll on Turn 1, or not. Rigeld made a good point that the answer is "Yes", but don't want to get involved in "Detachment rules" until they fix that.
And here:
BlackTalos wrote: No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers.
The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
confoo22 wrote: Can you address why, exactly, the drop pod rules do not supersede these rules since the transport arrives at the same time as the unit you're rolling for that is embarked on that transport? You keep making this claim and then ignoring that statement which seems to overturn it.
greytalon666 wrote: Talos, the rule (not plural) you have been trying to force down peoples throats as the end all be all of dsr, has been proven to be superceeded by other rules.
If you could get a quote of that rule, it would help...
And no, i see no rules in the Drop Pod rules superseding the Deep Strike rule that you must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" of the Unit you rolled for.
Both are arriving together.
The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
BlackTalos wrote: By the way, to make it clear what "my side" is:
- Combined Reserve means you have to roll once for all of the Units.
- And/Or refers to having an IC and Transport / an IC or Transport. Not who you can roll for: you only roll for the "Combined Unit. - This Combined Unit follows the rules for DS: The Unit (T+Passengers) is Deep Striking, but only the Transport is arriving "by Deep Strike", while the Passengers are arriving "by disembarking", but the entire (combined) Unit is Deep Striking.
Lastly and more importantly:
- I am unsure as to whether RoT would allow the Combined Unit to roll on Turn 1, or not. Rigeld made a good point that the answer is "Yes", but don't want to get involved in "Detachment rules" until they fix that.
And here:
BlackTalos wrote: No, they are in Deep Strike Reserves together. They are Deep Striking together. But when you deploy the Pod by Deep Strike, then Purifiers then disembark from the arrived Pod.
I am just showing that it is impossible to roll Reserves for the Purifiers. The Combined Unit can Roll, and the Pod can roll (although i'd disagree that it could). They may or may not benefit from RoT upon doing so...
The underlined hasn't been shown. Your interpretation of the Combined Reserve Unit rule.. "- And/Or refers to having an IC and Transport / an IC or Transport. Not who you can roll for: you only roll for the "Combined Unit." isn't true.
Spoiler:
Combined Reserve Units
... Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
This rule means I can do any of the following to determine if a combined unit arrives from Reserves:
Roll for the transport (Drop Pod).
Roll for the unit (Purifiers).
Roll for both.
Your interpretation says that I can not roll for the combined unit by rolling for the Purifiers. I do not believe you've shown significant evidence to make this claim.
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
Page 13, basic vs advanced, last sentence. You're welcome.
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
It does not fail, per the combined unit rules where it explicitly states they arrive together by rolling for the unit and/OR their transport/ic.
Again, your welcome for me looking up all those rules for you. Now please, cease your useless nu-uhs and actually *add* something to this, or acknoiwkedge you are wrong and move on.
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
Page 13, basic vs advanced, last sentence. You're welcome.
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
You should actually read the entire rulebook.
Spoiler:
Basic Versus Advanced
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank). The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in its Army List Entry. Army List Entries can be found in a number of Games Workshop publications, such as a Warhammer 40,000 codex.
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rule takes precedence. On rare occasions, a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex or Army List Entry always takes precedence.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
The codex *does* allow the Combined Unit to roll on turn 1. Please find a rule denying that.
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
Or we can actually check the rules, which I found an epub of on my phone here. Don't have the page number, but under the section "Advanced versus Basic rules":
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. - i.e. Deep Strike
Advanced rules apply to specific types of models - in this case a drop pod
Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. - in this case Drop Pod Assault overriding the general drop pod rules
If codex rules didn't override BRB rules then codexes would have no army specific rules. Next time try actually looking at the rules before trying to win an argument based off a guess.
When rolling for a combined unit you can only use benefits that everything in the combined unit has.
If a Gey Knight character was in an IG squad and the squad received the monster hunter order; would the Grey Knight gain it? Yes. This is why allies break the game as why would this Grey Knight accept orders from an IG?
Back on topic, does the drop pod have RoT? No? Therefore it cannot be used as both units do not have it.
SGTPozy wrote: When rolling for a combined unit you can only use benefits that everything in the combined unit has.
If a Gey Knight character was in an IG squad and the squad received the monster hunter order; would the Grey Knight gain it? Yes. This is why allies break the game as why would this Grey Knight accept orders from an IG?
Back on topic, does the drop pod have RoT? No? Therefore it cannot be used as both units do not have it.
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
Page 13, basic vs advanced, last sentence. You're welcome.
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
It does not fail, per the combined unit rules where it explicitly states they arrive together by rolling for the unit and/OR their transport/ic.
Again, your welcome for me looking up all those rules for you. Now please, cease your useless nu-uhs and actually *add* something to this, or acknoiwkedge you are wrong and move on.
We've already proven you can't place the purifiers if you roll for them per the deep strike placement rules. Combined reserves roll rule does not override deep strike placement rules which require you to place the 1 model for the unit you are rolling for and roll scatter...Since purifiers don't have deep strike it is not possible - then furthermore it is impossible for the unit to disembark from the drop pod if they are already on the table. 2 impossibilities that you guys so quickly ignore and just make up a situation that works for your liking. No - you can't roll for the purifiers and then deploy the pod first...outside of it also making no sense it also isn't supported by any rules ether.
So you say it applies in one instance but not the other? Way to cherry pick. Please, quote me the rule, with page number and paragraph number, where it says the entire combined unit has to be from a NSF detachment.
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
Page 13, basic vs advanced, last sentence. You're welcome.
BlackTalos wrote: The Drop Pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. The Passengers must:
"Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark."
Ok, so the drop pod must "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table" first. Why exactly does placing the drop pod not satisfy this requirement?
And btw, codex rules always superseded BRB rules when they disagree. Don't have the BRB in front of me so I can't find the exact passage that says that, but i'm pretty sure it's somewhere in first few pages.
Says that no where I am sure.
Furthermore the codex says nothing about how you would deploy the unit. So there isn't a disagreement. It's just an inconsistent dead end. Sure you can make the roll but you can't legally place the unit. Therefore it's fail. (talking about the purifiers ofc)
It does not fail, per the combined unit rules where it explicitly states they arrive together by rolling for the unit and/OR their transport/ic.
Again, your welcome for me looking up all those rules for you. Now please, cease your useless nu-uhs and actually *add* something to this, or acknoiwkedge you are wrong and move on.
We've already proven you can't place the purifiers if you roll for them per the deep strike placement rules. Combined reserves roll rule does not override deep strike placement rules which require you to place the 1 model for the unit you are rolling for and roll scatter...Since purifiers don't have deep strike it is not possible - then furthermore it is impossible for the unit to disembark from the drop pod if they are already on the table. 2 impossibilities that you guys so quickly ignore and just make up a situation that works for your liking. No - you can't roll for the purifiers and then deploy the pod first...outside of it also making no sense it also isn't supported by any rules ether.
Except we've already quoted other raw that makes this possibke. It's your fault you've buried the dozen quotes several pages back, feel free to go reread this entire thread to find them.
SGTPozy wrote: When rolling for a combined unit you can only use benefits that everything in the combined unit has.
Citation required.
If a Gey Knight character was in an IG squad and the squad received the monster hunter order; would the Grey Knight gain it? Yes. This is why allies break the game as why would this Grey Knight accept orders from an IG?
No, because IG orders only apply to models from an IG codex iirc.
Back on topic, does the drop pod have RoT? No? Therefore it cannot be used as both units do not have it.
Rules to support statements are cool. You should try giving some.
nosferatu1001 wrote: You roll for the combined unit - what allows you to use part of the combined unit to set when you can turn up? Nothing in the combined unit rules allows you to inspect each unit component, reveal when it is able to roll, and set the "best" one as the roll and turn for the combined unit.
I must make a Reserve roll for a combined unit. How do I determine what that roll is?
Ignore what the makeup of the combined unit is - cite the rules telling you what and when to roll.
It tells you that you can make a single roll. It gives you no rules on how to resolve conflicts on when you can roll
Which was my point. Cite permission to pick the turn one roll, over the turn two roll.
I'm asking genuinely - I do not believe the rules cover this. So if I can only make one roll, and I can roll turn two and break no rules, or turn one but break a rule, which one do I go for ?
Confoo - you must deploy according to the DS rules. Nothing in the DPA rules allow you to override this. If it does, cite it.
Your case has not been proven. Summarise.
Grey - fab, I will not address you further.
nosferatu1001 wrote: You roll for the combined unit - what allows you to use part of the combined unit to set when you can turn up? Nothing in the combined unit rules allows you to inspect each unit component, reveal when it is able to roll, and set the "best" one as the roll and turn for the combined unit.
I must make a Reserve roll for a combined unit. How do I determine what that roll is?
Ignore what the makeup of the combined unit is - cite the rules telling you what and when to roll.
It tells you that you can make a single roll. It gives you no rules on how to resolve conflicts on when you can roll
Which was my point. Cite permission to pick the turn one roll, over the turn two roll.
I'm asking genuinely - I do not believe the rules cover this. So if I can only make one roll, and I can roll turn two and break no rules, or turn one but break a rule, which one do I go for ?
What. Rule. Is. Broken. By. Rolling. Turn. One.
You've continuously asserted that the pod *must* come in turn 2 but have utterly failed to provide a rule proving that. It doesn't exist. Stop saying it does.
The pod must roll "as normal". Normal for a Combined Reserves unit that has access to RoT is turn 1. No rule is broken.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Wow. That's. Impressive. Failing. To. Answer. My. Request. In. A. Deliberately. Provocative. Manner.
The pod must roll as normal, what's normal for a non nsf pod? Turn two.
What allows you to consider the pods "as normal" when you're in an abnormal situation - seriously the rules aren't covering this.
I'm done attempting to engage you. I assume you're having a bad day, as you're normally better than this.
You're not rolling for the pod. You're rolling for the combined unit.
The pod has literally no restriction on when it can come in - you've invented one.
", where it actually denies the pro's their rules.
idiotic and look up page 104.