So for those not familiar, The Nemesis Strike Force is a unique force organization for the Grey Knights. You lose 1 Fast Attack and 1 Heavy Support slot, but gain an elite slot and a rule called "Rites of Teleportation". In addition to being able to run and shoot the turn you arrive from deep strike, deep strike reserves can roll to arrive from turn 1.
So the scenario. Let's say you bring Purifiers as a part of the Nemesis Strike Formation. You also brought a Space Wolf ally, and as a part of that force you take drop pods in Fast Attack and have the Purifiers ride in them. Half of them rounded up arrive first turn, and here in lies the question. Can those Purifiers who don't arrive automatically turn one still roll to arrive turn 1 as per Rites of Teleportation, even though they're riding in a Space Wolf Drop Pod?
This has been a hotly argued subject on several threads and forums. Per RAW, Rites allows the Purifiers in SW (or BA) Drop Pod(s) to roll to arrive turn 1, and gain Battle Focus for the turn they arrive.
"Rites of Teleportation" (I'll say that again: Teleportation) being used on a Drop Pod (that thing that falls out of the sky and never, ever, teleports).
Whatever the RaW is, the RaI is a massive NO. A "not even worth thinking about" NO.
Xenomancers wrote: Nope. Drop pod is a SW unit and not part of your formation. Your NSF has nothing to do with that pod.
Please re-read the section on Combined Units in the BRB, where it tells us that mixed unit rolls once for all models to enter play from reserve, which includes any ICs and Vehicles. Per RAW, the NSF Purifiers and the SW Fast choice Drop Pod are a Combined Unit that therefore rolls only once for all models in the unit. The NSF Purifiers qualify for the Rites of Teleportion benefit due to bring in Deep Strike Reserves while embarked on a Reserved SW Fast choice Drop Pod. One roll to arrive, and that roll is on Turn 1 due to Rites.
RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation. Unless you house rule it otherwise, RAW is how it's played.
You are correct that there is a thing called a combined roll, however the drop pod is what is rolling to arrive not just the models inside it.
The drop pod does not have access to rites of teleportation in any way.
You are making a combined roll for the Transport+Unit+[IC if there is one attached]
however the roll is using the rules of the model that is deep striking, the pod- so no rites of teleportation. You do not get to use the reserve rules modification from rites of teleportation for any model in the combined roll you so choose, but are limited in that not all the models have certain ways to allow them permission to override the core rules.
The important part of the combined roll is that in the case of drop pods the model being placed, the pod, is deepstriking. You roll for the POD to arrive, then place it, then you can disembark the unit.
The pod does not have rites of teleportation, and there is no permission for it to be granted to the pod through the rules for rites of teleportation.
By the RAW there is no rites of teleportation for a drop pod.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Do Purifiers even have Deep Strike?
I must've missed that rule, and it's a change from the last codex.
No, they don't. Hence why people want to put them inside a Drop Pod that magically then Teleports.
Honestly, unless someone paints it like a TARDIS I wouldn't stand for it in my games
I was under the impression that Rites of Teleportation did not work on a unit in another faction's drop pod because it was a detachment specific rule and detachment specific rules only affect that detachment. Otherwise I could take the Voidclaws formation and stick them in a Stormwolf and have the Stormwolf arrive by deepstrike T1 - but that's not how the rules work.
Of course, until someone quotes all the relevant rules word for word there can be no real argument made one way or the other.
Just because Rites of Teleportation has the word "teleportation" in it's name does not mean that "teleportation" is a game mechanic in 7th Ed Warhammer 40k. Yet, Deep Strike is a mechanic in the game, and models arriving by Deep Strike that also happen to be a unit in a Nemesis Strike Formation gains the benefit of rolling to arrive on Turn 1, and gains Battle Focus for the turn the unit arrives. So, is the unit of NSF Purifiers arriving by Deep Strike? Yes or no?
Per the rules for Transports arriving by Deep Strike, the passengers have also arrived by Deep Strike, and gain the benefit of being able to disembark upon arrival, which bypasses the normal restriction on units moving after the Deep Strike scatter is complete. So, yes, the NSF Purifiers have in fact arrived by Deep Strike and therefore gain the use of Battle Focus for that turn.
On the roll to arrive, it is neither the Drop Pod, nor the Purifiers, nor any attached ICs that is rolling to arrive from Reseves; it is the Combined Unit. When does the Combined Unit roll to arrive? Per Rites of Teleportion, a NSF unit that is Deep Striking rolls to arrive on Turn 1 instead of the normal Turn 2. Per the Combined Unit rules, the NSF Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and any attached ICs roll once for all of the models in the Combined Unit. So, when does the Combined Unit roll to arrive? Turn 1 or Turn 2?
Per RAW, Rites of Teleportation does not restrict the benefit to only models with the Deep Strike USR, or only models part of a Nemesis Strike Formation, or just Grey Knight units. The only restriction is that Rites is a benefit of units within the NSF, to which the NSF Purifier unit in our example is.
So the question now becomes, when does a unit in a Formation cease to be in that Formation? Per the BRB, never. Units cannot change formations, nor factions. This means that our NSF Purifiers will always be a unit in a Nemesis Strike Formation, will always gain the Rites of Teleportion benefit if Deep Striking, and cannot be denied a Turn 1 roll to arrive if arriving by Deep Strike (unless a specific rule restricts the use of Rites). Combined Units allows only one roll for the mixed unit, and that one roll is made on Turn 1 in our example. The SW Drop Pod cannot deny the roll, nor delay the roll, nor change the roll, beyond it's own Drop Pod Assault rule.
Your inability to get beyond the word "teleportation" in the name "Rites of Teleportation" is your issue, not a rules issue.
You're not rolling for the Purifiers, though, right? (Although the Purifiers must be arriving by Deep Strike.) You're rolling for the vehicle that the Purifiers happen to be inside.
What does the BRB say about occupied Transports that are in reserve? The vehicle and the passengers are separate units, so what gives the permission to only roll once for the two separate units?
jeffersonian000 wrote: RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation.
RAI is not unknown, Drop pods don't Teleport!
RaW might be unclear, but RAI is crystal.
Except for the nitpicky fact that Rites of Teleportation, despite the name, has nothing to do with Teleportation but rather with Deep Striking units. Not all deep striking units teleport, yet they may have access to Rites of Teleportation.
Stop trying to use a name as part of the rule instead of the actual rule itself.
However, I agree that the Allied pod does not gain access to Rites because you are indeed rolling for the pod to arrive from reserves (combined with any embarked unit + ic). Combined reserves allows the embarked unit to come in with the unit doing the DS'ing on one roll, not to allow the DS'ing unit to use the embarked units rules.
Just saying, "RAW I can" or "RAW you can't" is utterly meaningless unless you quote the "rules as written" that allow or disallow. Anything less than a quote is an opinion, which is fine, I have opinions too. Unfortunately, I don't have my rule book or I would find the rules and lay them out so we could actually see what the rules say.
Just for the record, this is from the pinned thread on how to conduct a YMDC rules discussion:
"Premises
For the sake of organization, number your premises. Premises should be largely based on rules. Sometime the rules won't cover the issue, but if there is a related rule, it's a good idea to include it in a premise. Be sure to provide page numbers or quotes."
special rules from an unit do not extend to their transport, because their transport is a separate unit.
Yes, you make 1 combined roll for the transport+unit. But it is the transport that is arriving by deep strike, the unit inside is arriving from deepstrike reserves (along with the transport).
The transport does not have the rites of teleportation rule, is not an unit from the NSF detachment, and is not joined to an unit from the NSF detachment, so there is no arguable way that it can have the special rule nor benefit from it as the rule states:
Rites of Teleportation
Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+.
There is no point in time that the SW drop pod bought from some other detachment is an unit, or part of an unit from the NSF detachment. The combined reserves roll gives no permission for you to pick some special ability of one of the units and apply it to all the units in the combined roll, it is simply 1 roll for all the units. The purifiers do not have deep strike, the Drop Pod does have deepstrike but does not have rites of teleportation. Rites does not say it extends to a transport they are in. There is no RAW giving the transport rites of teleportation.
as for the 2nd thing rites grants[not quoted], the unit inside would benefit from this if they are from the NSF detachment because they are arriving from deep strike reserves along with the pod when the pod arrives by deep strike.
Xenomancers wrote: Nope. Drop pod is a SW unit and not part of your formation. Your NSF has nothing to do with that pod.
Please re-read the section on Combined Units in the BRB, where it tells us that mixed unit rolls once for all models to enter play from reserve, which includes any ICs and Vehicles. Per RAW, the NSF Purifiers and the SW Fast choice Drop Pod are a Combined Unit that therefore rolls only once for all models in the unit. The NSF Purifiers qualify for the Rites of Teleportion benefit due to bring in Deep Strike Reserves while embarked on a Reserved SW Fast choice Drop Pod. One roll to arrive, and that roll is on Turn 1 due to Rites.
RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation. Unless you house rule it otherwise, RAW is how it's played.
SJ
Drop pods do not roll for reserves though. I don't think you can get around that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Elric Greywolf wrote: Do Purifiers even have Deep Strike?
I must've missed that rule, and it's a change from the last codex.
They do not. Therefore they themselves do not have access to the turn 1 deep strike anyways.
Xenomancers wrote: Nope. Drop pod is a SW unit and not part of your formation. Your NSF has nothing to do with that pod.
Please re-read the section on Combined Units in the BRB, where it tells us that mixed unit rolls once for all models to enter play from reserve, which includes any ICs and Vehicles. Per RAW, the NSF Purifiers and the SW Fast choice Drop Pod are a Combined Unit that therefore rolls only once for all models in the unit. The NSF Purifiers qualify for the Rites of Teleportion benefit due to bring in Deep Strike Reserves while embarked on a Reserved SW Fast choice Drop Pod. One roll to arrive, and that roll is on Turn 1 due to Rites.
RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation. Unless you house rule it otherwise, RAW is how it's played.
SJ
Drop pods do not roll for reserves though. I don't think you can get around that.
Most certainly they do. 1/2 rounded up come in automatically T1, however after that you have to roll.
It doesn't matter whether or not a model has Deep Strike for that model to be embarked on a Drop Pod in Reserves, because the Drop Pod has the Deep Strike USR, the Transport rules allow the passengers embarked on a Deep Striking Transport to Deep Strike with the Transport, and the Combined Unit rules clarify that the passengers and the Transport roll as a single unit to arrive. This means that you do not roll to arrive for the Drop Pod, nor the Purifiers; you roll to arrive for the Combined Unit. The Combined Unit qualifies for Rites of Teleportation the moment the Purifiers embark the Drop Pod while in Reserves, because the requirement to arrive via Deep Strike has been met. It is false to believe that the Drop Pod's lack of being a NSF unit has any effect on the Purifiers being a NSF unit. The Purifiers have Rites via being in Deep Strike Reserves, which was legally achieved through being Battle Brothers with Allied Space Wolves and embarking upon one or more Fast choice SW Drop Pods.
There is no way in the current rule set to deny a unit a benefit gained through the unit's formation. A unit gains or loses any benefits based on the wording of the benefits. After acquiring Deep Strike via embarking on a Battle Brother Allied non-Dedicated Drop Pod, the Combined Unit rules as well as the wording of Rites of Teleportation does legally allow the Combined Unit of NSF Purifiers + SW Fast choice Drop Pod to roll for arrival on Turn 1 (if the Combined Unit did not already arrive Turn 1 via Drop Pod Assault).
GW wrote those rules, and have yet to errata or FAQ any changes to how these rules are worded or interact. At the moment, this tactic is legal.
Happyjew wrote: jeffersonian, is the Combined Unit a unit from the NSF detachment? If so, can you show rules support for that?
Yes, the Combined Unit is part of the NSF by virtue of including a NSF unit. This is covered not only in the Combined Unit rules, but in the Formation rules and Allies rules. As I have already stated.
Happyjew wrote: jeffersonian, is the Combined Unit a unit from the NSF detachment? If so, can you show rules support for that?
Yes, the Combined Unit is part of the NSF by virtue of including a NSF unit. This is covered not only in the Combined Unit rules, but in the Formation rules and Allies rules. As I have already stated.
SJ
This is untrue and there are no rules supporting it in any way.
The transport is never considered part of the unit it is being used by, and is definitely chosen from a different detachment. There are no actual rules that support a transport being used by an unit from a different detachment counting as being from the different detachment the unit is from.
Under Combined Reserve Units pg 135 last sentence "In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/ Transport vehicle."
If a unit and Transport vehicle are a combined reserve unit which unit is bringing in the other?
From reading from the blood angel's codex about drop pod rules (I am assuming the drop pod rules are universal between all the codexes if not please correct me) embarked units fall to the pecking order of the Transport as the emparked unit
Indepdent character < unit < embarked Transport. from how i am reading it of the Combined Reserve Units.
As well in the Deep Strike section of the USRpg 162 it seems to lead to that the Transport vehicle is the unit that is deep striking Deep strike and Transports "Units do not confer the Deep Strike special rule onto a Transport vehicle they are embarked inside. A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike Regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."
HIWPI is that unless the embarked unit has Deep Strike and the Drop pod is not part of the NSF that is a no go since the drop pod isn't part of it.
Another way I see it is that yes they are a Combined Unit and you only roll once for the whole thing......but the drop pod is still NOT part of the NSF and the drop pod does not have a clause where they follow the rules for the embarked unit (like the IC clause how when it joins a unit it becomes part of that unit for all rules purposes) and (if i could get the full rules for the Rite of Teleportation so I'm stating this correctly would be grand) since the Rite of Teleport only allows units ONLY from the formation to have it you have a Combined Unit that is part from the formation and part -NOT- from the formation. If the Rite of Teleportation says it ONLY works for units from the formation this is still a no go even though you have one unit that is part of it you also have a unit that is NOT part of it, if you use the Rite of Teleportation for a unit not part of the detatchment regardless if it is a Combined Unit or not (excluding IC because they have a rule that treats them as part of the joined unit for all rules) you are breaking the rule.
In short you need not just a yes for "this unit is part of the formation" but you need a yes for the entire part of what you want the Rite to be used for. In this case you have a yes/no
jeffersonian000 wrote: RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation.
RAI is not unknown, Drop pods don't Teleport!
RaW might be unclear, but RAI is crystal.
Except for the nitpicky fact that Rites of Teleportation, despite the name, has nothing to do with Teleportation but rather with Deep Striking units. Not all deep striking units teleport, yet they may have access to Rites of Teleportation.
Stop trying to use a name as part of the rule instead of the actual rule itself.
I very clearly (no, extreamly clearly) made a difference between Raw and RaI in that statement.
I could not have have it more clear that that was an RaI statement.
So absolutely I will take into account the very name of the rule in an RAI statement.
The Drop Pod does not Teleport. I'll bet you'll want to use "inertial guidance" on this teleporting Pod that isn't falling towards the ground as well. Because thrusters will help with teleporting...
That's RAI incase it wasn't clear enough...
...you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike...
Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves.
You may place a unit of Purifiers into Deep Strike Reserves along with a Space Wolves Drop Pod, as per the rules for Drop Pod Assault. Attempting to make a combined reserves roll for both would conflict with Rites of Teleportation however, as a Space Wolves Drop Pod is not in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment.
It doesn't matter that you may make combined reserves rolls for both unit and transport it is embarked upon; that does not change which detachment unit and Drop Pod belong to.
jeffersonian000 wrote: RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation.
RAI is not unknown, Drop pods don't Teleport!
RaW might be unclear, but RAI is crystal.
Except for the nitpicky fact that Rites of Teleportation, despite the name, has nothing to do with Teleportation but rather with Deep Striking units. Not all deep striking units teleport, yet they may have access to Rites of Teleportation.
Stop trying to use a name as part of the rule instead of the actual rule itself.
I very clearly (no, extreamly clearly) made a difference between Raw and RaI in that statement.
I could not have have it more clear that that was an RaI statement.
So absolutely I will take into account the very name of the rule in an RAI statement.
The Drop Pod does not Teleport. I'll bet you'll want to use "inertial guidance" on this teleporting Pod that isn't falling towards the ground as well. Because thrusters will help with teleporting...
That's RAI incase it wasn't clear enough...
I would use the inertial guidance element of the Drop Pod rules as that is what the rules tell me to do. If you want to put a house rule into place and not do what the rules tell you to do, that's awesome. Forge that Narrative, buddy. I, on the other hand, leave fluff for my downtime reading and play the game using only the rules as written. Different strokes for different folks.
Could someone look at my post on the first page and tell me what they think of how I have tried to explain it? I think it got overlooked because it was the last post of 1st page.
Oberron, your premise is false based on the wording of Rites of Tekeportation, which does not require all members of the unit to have Deep Strike, or be GK units, or model in a NSF. Rites requires that a NSF unit be in Deep Strike Reserves to gain its benefits. A NSF Purifier unit in a SW Drop a Pod qualifies for Rites because the unit is in Deep Strike Reserves. As such, the Purifiers can legally roll to arrive on Turn 1. Per the Combined rolls you quoted, no restriction exists that states you must use the Drop Pod to roll. The rule in fact leaves the option up to the player, yet does does specifically state the unit and/or attached ICs and Transport.
As it is worded within the rules envolved, permission is granted to roll on Turn 1, and no restrictions exist to tells us to deny the benefit. People argue that there is, yet no rules exist to support their argument.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Oberron, your premise is false based on the wording of Rites of Tekeportation, which does not require all members of the unit to have Deep Strike, or be GK units, or model in a NSF.
False. Please read the restriction for the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment:
All units in this Detachment must have the Grey Knights Faction (or have no Faction).
Since currently all units in the game currently have a Faction, this basically means that all units in the Detachment must be Grey Knights.
Ghaz, what you are talking about has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Please, do tell how your restrictions on foc have anything to do with rites.
Exactly, it has nothing to do with it.
You have permission to roll for purifiers, which implies permission to roll for the combined unit. Seriously, if people were trying to attach terminator chaplains to go terminators/paladins, you wouldn't have a problem with it because it wouldn't single handedly threaten everyone's gunline. People are only worked up about purifier pods because of how effective they are vs gun lines. Pull your big girl panties up, stop calling everything that is hard to deal with broke, and adapt to the game... Or find a new game.
"All units in this s detachment must have the same faction or no faction" pretty clear that it applies to list building. Trying to connect it to ANYTHING else is like trying to connect a connects stick to a Lego block.
I do like how you failed to mention anything about the implied permission to roll, and instead tried throwing up a scarecrow argument.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Oberron, your premise is false based on the wording of Rites of Tekeportation, which does not require all members of the unit to have Deep Strike, or be GK units, or model in a NSF. Rites requires that a NSF unit be in Deep Strike Reserves to gain its benefits. A NSF Purifier unit in a SW Drop a Pod qualifies for Rites because the unit is in Deep Strike Reserves. As such, the Purifiers can legally roll to arrive on Turn 1. Per the Combined rolls you quoted, no restriction exists that states you must use the Drop Pod to roll. The rule in fact leaves the option up to the player, yet does does specifically state the unit and/or attached ICs and Transport.
As it is worded within the rules envolved, permission is granted to roll on Turn 1, and no restrictions exist to tells us to deny the benefit. People argue that there is, yet no rules exist to support their argument.
SJ
Would you or someone else be able to post the rites of teleportation so I could get an accurate read of it?
Edit: and do the purifiers have deep strike? If they do why use a drop pod? If they don't then one would have to use the drop pod for the roll since the unit is embarked on the drop pod and the drop pod is the unit with deep strike USR.
2nd Edit: I guess what I am asking for if one is unable to post the rule in question is in the wording if it just requires a unit to be from NSF or -ONLY- a NSF. If the ROT is looking just for a unit from NSF then I can see that it is alright by a round-a-bount way, but if ROT says -only- then that is where problems come up.
"...you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike..."
Making a combined reserve roll for a unit of Purifiers embarked upon an allied Drop Pod is not making a roll for a unit in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment; it is making a combined reserve roll for one unit from and one unit not from the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment.
Hmmm but it is also NOT a NSF unit and it Combined Reserve Units rule doesn't make it a single unit either, it makes the distinct point of saying you just make one roll for a unit that has an Independent Character or for the Transport Vehicle. It is not like the IC special rules that allows it to join a unit.
You can't make the roll to deep strike and say that the roll is for the purifiers because htey don't have the Deep Strike USR, but they are embarked on a drop pod with the Deep Strike USR and can "...Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not." It doesn't confer the Deep Strike USR to them.
But then again it does say -ANY- unit in the detachment. But then how is the Drop Pod being rolled for since it isn't part of the Detachment?
So the purifiers come into play but the drop pod doesn't? Serious question I've never seen this done before. If the drop pod comes in as well that is a serious no-no because the drop pod isn't part of the purifier unit and isn't part of the detatchment. What rules are allowing the drop pod to come in as well? Unless it doesn't then it seems alright, very wonky and workaround rules wise, but rules wise seems alright.
siege2142 wrote: "Combined" unit means it is one roll, one unit. It is still a NSF unit.
NSF doesn't require a unit tone made solely of NSF detachment models.
Let's have a look at the actual rules:
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Formation can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.
First and foremost, Combined Reserve Units requires you to specify any units in reserve embarked upon a transport vehicle, and requires that they arrive together based on a single reserves roll. So you specify Purifiers are embarked upon a Space Wolves Drop Pod, placing them into Deep Strike Reserves with the Space Wolves Drop Pod.
At the beginning of your first turn half of your Drop Pods come down. Drop Pod Assault requires the remaining Drop Pods to be rolled for as normal. The Purifiers' Drop Pod is not selected as one of the half to come down on turn one, so they are required to be rolled for as normal.
Rites of Teleportation allows you to make reserve rolls on turn one for units in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment which are also in Deep Strike Reserves. The Purifiers are in Deep Strike Reserves but Combined Reserve Units requires them to be rolled for and to arrive together with the Space Wolves Drop Pod, which is not part of the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment as required. Additionally, Drop Pod Assault requires the remaining Drop Pods (with those units embarked upon them, i.e. the Purifiers) to be rolled for as normal.
Rites of Teleportation allows you to make reserve rolls on turn one for units in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment which are also in Deep Strike Reserves. The Purifiers are in Deep Strike Reserves but Combined Reserve Units requires them to be rolled for and to arrive together with the Space Wolves Drop Pod, which is not part of the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment as required. Additionally, Drop Pod Assault requires the remaining Drop Pods (with those units embarked upon them, i.e. the Purifiers) to be rolled for as normal.
Correct. So, what is normal? For a NSF unit in Deep Strike Reserves, normal is roll to arrive on Turn 1. And we are back again.
The crux of the problem is that people keep getting hung up on the faction status of the Drop Pod versus the faction status of the NSF Purifier unit. Thankfully, it doesn't matter.
Again, if Rites had wording restricting its benefits to only GK models, then yes, the Drop Pod's faction status matters. If Rites had wording stating the benefit is lost if on a non-NSF vehicle or if a non-NSF IC was attached, then yes, it would matter. If Rites required the unit to have the Deep Strike USR, then yes, it would matter. However, Rites only requires that the NSF unit be in Deep Strike Reserves to gain the benefit. A NSF Purifier squad in Deep Strike Reserves, by whatever means the squad achieved it, will gain the benefit.
The two specific rules that allow the SW (or BA) Drop Pod to arrive together with the NSF Purifier squad are the Combined Units rules which inform us the Squad and its Transport must arrive together on a single roll, and the Detachment rules that inform us a unit can never lose it's faction nor have more than one faction. These two rules mean that the NSF Purifier squad cannot lose it's NSF status just because it is embarked on an Allied Transport. And while the Transport never loses its faction/detachment status, having the Purifiers embarked cause the Drop Pod and Purifiers to arrive together. Rites allows the Purifiers to roll to arrive on Turn 1. Drop Pod Assault does not force the Drop Pod to roll to arrive on Turn 2, it only states that if the Drop Pod did not arrive automatically on Turn 1, it must roll to arrive normally. Per the Combined Unit rules, "normally" is Turn 1 due to the NSF Purifiers having Rites.
Pounder this: GW has obviously noted this loophole in their own rules, as seen by their more restrictive wording in the recent Blood Angels codex. If GW intended for Battle Brother + Combined Units + Rites of Teleportation =/= Turn 1 roll to arrive, they would have errata'd or FAQ'd the rules by now. As it stands right now, this combo is legal per the rules as written.
You're both making up an implied permission where rolling for a combined reserves unit that is both in and not in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment is somehow the same as making a resrves roll for a unit in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment.
You are making a reserves roll for the purifiers, which implies permission to roll for a combined unit / combined reserves. It is implied permission, because it isn't specifically called out. Nothing implied is ever specifically called out, hence "implied".
Except the permission is for units in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment in deep strike reserves, which the Space Wolves Drop Pod is not, even if they make a combined reserves roll.
Making a combined roll does not make both unit and transport from the same detachment as required, which is what you are claiming is implied or otherwise allowed to be waived.
Rites of Teleportation does require all units in a Combined unit to be part of an NSF. Rites does require the NSF unit to be in Deep Strike Reserves, while Combined Units requires all of the separate units to arrive together. What you keep making up is a false restriction that all of the models in the Combined Unit must be NSF units in order to arrive together. Thankfully, that's not how the rules are written.
Having read through everything, I haven't seen anything that dissuades me from my original thinking that purifiers in a drop pod that do not arrive turn one via drop pod assault could still roll via the rule Rites of Teleportation. As that rule reads, if a unit from that formation is in Deep Strike Reserves they may roll to enter play from turn one on a 3+, regardless of how it got there or if the unit in question natively has deep strike. Did I miss someone posting a rule, either from the formation or the BRB, that restricts it?
jeffersonian000 wrote: Rites of Teleportation does require all units in a Combined unit to be part of an NSF.
SJ
Emphasis mine.
By saying that you know you just showed that this can't work right? The SW drop pod isn't part of the NSF. Combined reserve roll is one roll made for both the purifier and the drop pod. How is one making the roll for the drop pod with rite of teleportation?
Show me this permission(a rule quote) that the SW drop pod can use rite of teleportation for it's reserve roll.
Edit2: As for the denial for NSF
Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Formation can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
Tires of teleportation is for making Reserve Rolls for any unit in the formation. Combined Reserve Unit allows one to make one roll for the unit, and/or Transport vehicle. The roll is for the unit AND Transport vehicle, which the Drop pod is not a NSF unit, which means you are making a Rites of Teleportation Reserve roll for a unit NOT part of the formation regardless if it is in a Combined Reserve Unit. The other way is the Reserve Roll is for the Transport Vehicle instead of the unit, which once again is not a NSF unit and can't use the Rites of Teleportation.
The Combined Reserve roll is not for just one unit it is for all parts of the Combined reserve unit, which is the unit and the Drop pod, or for just the Transport.
Show me a rules quote that it CAN'T. I have implied permission to do so... Do you have any way to deny me that rite?
Automatically Appended Next Post: That's right, you can't show me a quote, because we are given permission from the brb to make combined rolls for units in reserve together, and NSF let's us make that roll on turn one if the unit is in ds reserves.
siege2142 wrote: Show me a rules quote that it CAN'T. I have implied permission to do so... Do you have any way to deny me that rite?
Rite of teleportation can be used for any NSF unit, sw drop pod is not a NSF unit and the purifier unit and drop pod have to arive togeather and the reserve roll for a Combined Reserve unit is made for BOTH units or only the transport as per edit in my pervious post.(Not sure if you read the 2nd edit)
You are making the roll for the NSF unit, it's just bringing baggage with it. You yourself can not deny that. Everything you' e underlined has given me permission to use all these rules.
siege2142 wrote: You are making the roll for the NSF unit, it's just bringing baggage with it. You yourself can not deny that. Everything you' e underlined has given me permission to use all these rules.
No you are making the roll for either BOTH as I have bolded But will post again.
In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
It isn't "bringing baggage" the roll is made for BOTH the units.
And/or. I choose to make the roll for the unit. The unit OR ic OR transport. I've now successfully rolled for the unit, so the combined unit now comes in.
And you have then broken the Reserve rules for the SW drop pod, as that has no permission to enter play until turn two.
Explicit permission is required here to break a rule. Please post where the RoT rule allows you to break the reserve rules for the SW drop pod. Page and graph
Explicit permission is given by allowing the NSF unit to roll on turn one. It doesn't say a NSF unit that hasn't made a combined unit with non NSF units. It justnsays NSF unit. The codex has given permission, which overrides the standard brb.
The pod has no permission to roll to enter play on its own until turn two, but it's a good thing I stuck a NSF unit inside of it to get a free roll on turn one to bring a combined NSF unit into play.
siege2142 wrote: Explicit permission is given by allowing the NSF unit to roll on turn one. It doesn't say a NSF unit that hasn't made a combined unit with non NSF units. It justnsays NSF unit. The codex has given permission, which overrides the standard brb.
The pod has no permission to roll to enter play on its own until turn two, but it's a good thing I stuck a NSF unit inside of it to get a free roll on turn one to bring a combined NSF unit into play.
Ah, youre not understanding explicit then.
Explicit here would mean written. So, where is it *written* that the SW drop pod, which has no permission to enter play until turn two, is allowed to use the permission for the NSF unit to turn up turn 1.
There is no permission in combined unit reserves to extend special rules to other units.
The Space Wolf drop pod is not an unit from the NSF and does not have Rites of Teleportation. There is no rule allowing it to benefit from the special rule of models embarked in it (unless the special rule itself explicitly states so), in this case RoT.
the combined roll is 1 roll for the combined units to arrive, but they have to arrive as per the restrictions of the various units, not the permission of 1 of the units that is not extended to the rest.
honestly this is a rather silly discussion anyways. If you take a NSF you can take an allied SW detachment, take 1 pod and have it come in turn 1 anyways. The unit inside is arriving from deep strike reserves, and gets the run+shoot if its from the NSF. If you are taking a SWCAD you can get 3 drop pods and have 2 come in turn 1 and roll for the third on turn 2+. Coming in guaranteed versus rolling a 3+.
Actually, the Drop Pod's special rule "Drop Pod Assault" changes when the Drop Pod rolls to arrive from Turn 2 to "half, rounded up, arrive immediately on Turn 1 while the remainder roll to arrive normally". (That's a paraphrase, for those that are literally minded).
Rites of Teleportation moves "normally" from a Turn 2 roll to a Turn 1 roll.
Combined Units changes rolling for each unit individually to rolling once for the Combined Unit, which must arrive together.
Battle Brothers allows non-faction units to start the game embarked on non-Dedicated Transports.
Deep Strike allows a unit without the Deep Strike USR to arrive by Deep Strike if embarked on a Transport with the Deep Strike USR.
So, we have:
NSF unit + Drop Pod = Turn 1 roll to arrive
Rites does not require the entire Combined Unit to be members of the NSF, it only requires the NSF portion to be in Deep Strike Reserves, which is achieved via being embarked on a Fast choice SW (or BA) Drop Pod. The Drop Pod does not have restrictive language that requires a Turn 2 arrival, it does have general language to arrive normally. With Rites, normal changes from Turn 1 to Turn 2. You are not required to use a Combined Unit's more restrictive roll to arrive, you are literally given the choice of which roll the use via the written rules. You can chose to roll for the Unit OR the IC(s) OR the Transport, per RAW.
You would literally need to cite a rule that specifically states Combined units must use the more restrictive roll to arrive, or Drop Pods that don't arrive Turn 1 must start rolling on Turn 2. Rites of Teleportation does not include any restrictive language beyond requiring just the NSF unit to be in Deep Strike Reseves.
Oberron wrote: But the SW Drop Pod Isn't part of the NSF. How is the drop pod coming in from Rite of teleportation? Where is this permission?
The Purifiers are coming in via Rite of Teleportation. The Pod is coming in via the Combined Unit rule. The pod never interacts with Rite of Teleportation.
Oberron wrote: But the SW Drop Pod Isn't part of the NSF. How is the drop pod coming in from Rite of teleportation? Where is this permission?
The Purifiers are coming in via Rite of Teleportation. The Pod is coming in via the Combined Unit rule. The pod never interacts with Rite of Teleportation.
The Purifiers don't have the Deep Strike rule, so there is a mandatory interaction with the drop pod.
nosferatu1001 wrote: No, RoT turns normally for the nsf unit to turn one. No one else. Stop making unsupported leaps.
If you can't understand such a simple rules interaction, it's probably a lost cause to continue explaining the rules you keep refusing to understand. Suffice it to say, not only is the tactic supported in the rules, the entire rules interaction has been laid out in full several times in this thread. It is a waste in everyone's time to keep going in circles at this point.
Good luck with your house rule, the rest of us will play it per RAW.
The purifiers themselves are not the "unit" in Deep Strike Reserve. They are embarked on the SW Drop Pod via the ally transport rules and the new shenanigans via transports being fast attack choices. The unit placed in DS Reserve is the Pod.
The Pod arrives via DS reserve regardless of a unit being inside. The Purifiers do not arrive via DS reserve, in fact, they only disembark from the Pod after it lands.
The fact remains that GW has broken its own game by creating the possibility for situations like this to be debated. It boggles my mind that people try to manipulate rules that have obvious intentions in the effort to win at all costs.
Oberron wrote: But the SW Drop Pod Isn't part of the NSF. How is the drop pod coming in from Rite of teleportation? Where is this permission?
The Purifiers are coming in via Rite of Teleportation. The Pod is coming in via the Combined Unit rule. The pod never interacts with Rite of Teleportation.
The Purifiers don't have the Deep Strike rule, so there is a mandatory interaction with the drop pod.
The RoT only interacts with the Purifiers, not with the Pod. You asserting otherwise doesn't make it true.
Oberron wrote: But the SW Drop Pod Isn't part of the NSF. How is the drop pod coming in from Rite of teleportation? Where is this permission?
The Purifiers are coming in via Rite of Teleportation. The Pod is coming in via the Combined Unit rule. The pod never interacts with Rite of Teleportation.
The Purifiers don't have the Deep Strike rule, so there is a mandatory interaction with the drop pod.
The RoT only interacts with the Purifiers, not with the Pod. You asserting otherwise doesn't make it true.
Rites of Teleportation must interact with the pod, because that's the only model in the unit that can Deep Strike. Your assertions don't make your claims true.
Combined Reserves does not pass special rules between models in the unit as can be seen when they state all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule. The only reason the Purifiers can enter play is because the drop pod has Deep Strike.
Rites of teleportation doesn't say"a deep striking NSF unit may roll for reserves on turn one" it says "instead of making reserve rolls from the start of turn two, you can make reserve roles for ANY UNIT in this detachment that is placed in deep strike reserves from the start of turn one. These units will arrive from deep strike reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this detachment can both run and shoot, in any order, in the same turn they arrive from deep strike reserve."
So, as has been already affirmed, a unit in a drop pod is in deep strike reserve with the drop pod, and when the pod arrives and the unit disembarks, the unit will have arrived from deep strike reserves. Since the NSF unit inside the drop pod has permission to roll on turn one, the pod does to. The NSF unit is still a unit from the NSF detachment, even when combined.
nosferatu1001 wrote: No, RoT turns normally for the nsf unit to turn one. No one else. Stop making unsupported leaps.
If you can't understand such a simple rules interaction, it's probably a lost cause to continue explaining the rules you keep refusing to understand. Suffice it to say, not only is the tactic supported in the rules, the entire rules interaction has been laid out in full several times in this thread. It is a waste in everyone's time to keep going in circles at this point.
Good luck with your house rule, the rest of us will play it per RAW.
SJ
It's not so cut-and-dried as you seem to think. Even as a GK player, I'm tending toward the "no way Jose" camp. Don't call it a house rule when it's quite clear that this discussion is divided. And furthermore, I find it suspicious that so many of the "yes you can" side are GK players
You don't have to find it suspicious that way, I find it suspicious that until you identified yourself as a gk player, it was NON gk's only that were arguing against it. They probably haven't ever actually read the actual rule from the book, and they are trying to definetively say NO!
siege2142 wrote: Since the NSF unit inside the drop pod has permission to roll on turn one, the pod does to.
You're still making a baseless assumption that somehow the Drop Pod changes detachments just because of Combined Reserves. They both remain in their respective detachments and enter play using the drop pod's ability to Deep Strike because the Purifiers never have the ability to use the bonus given by Rites of Teleportation.
Now your trying to assert that because the name has teleportation in it, that the rule can only be used for teleporting? Sorry, but there are no rules distinctions between teleporting deep strike and dropping from the sky deep strike. The purifiers have every right to use the NSF special rule because they are in ds reserve. And, has been stated by the reserves rules, when I have a combined reserve unit, I can choose to roll for that entire combined reserve unit using only one part of that combined unit when ever I have the opportunity to roll for reserves to come in.
siege2142 wrote: Since the NSF unit inside the drop pod has permission to roll on turn one, the pod does to.
You're still making a baseless assumption that somehow the Drop Pod changes detachments just because of Combined Reserves. They both remain in their respective detachments and enter play using the drop pod's ability to Deep Strike because the Purifiers never have the ability to use the bonus given by Rites of Teleportation.
The pod is not changing detachments.
The Purifiers are in Deep Strike Reserve, agreed?
That means that they must roll to arrive on turn 2, agreed?
NSF allows units in Deep Strike Reserve to roll to arrive on turn one instead of two, agreed?
Please explain how the Purifiers are allowed to roll to arrive turn one without their Drop Pod.
It doesn't, because without the drop pod they can't be in deep strike reserves. With the pod, they are in deep strike reserves, and thus benefit from NSF.
The purifiers benefit from the rule because the rule doesn't care how the you it got into DSR, just that it is there. The pod gets to benefit from it by being combined with the purifiers, who by their special rule get to roll on turn one, and who have rulebook permission to do so based on the wording of the combined reserves rule in the brb.
Oberron wrote: But the SW Drop Pod Isn't part of the NSF. How is the drop pod coming in from Rite of teleportation? Where is this permission?
The Purifiers are coming in via Rite of Teleportation. The Pod is coming in via the Combined Unit rule. The pod never interacts with Rite of Teleportation.
The Purifiers don't have the Deep Strike rule, so there is a mandatory interaction with the drop pod.
The RoT only interacts with the Purifiers, not with the Pod. You asserting otherwise doesn't make it true.
Rites of Teleportation must interact with the pod, because that's the only model in the unit that can Deep Strike. Your assertions don't make your claims true.
I don't understand what you're saying here. Why must it? All it says is that units in Deep Strike Reserve get to roll to come on first turn. It doesn't matter whether or not the models (purifiers) can actually Deep Strike, only that they are in Deep Strike Reserve.
Ghaz wrote:From the 'Nemesis Strike Force' rules:
you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one.
So how is the pod benefiting from this rule if its not in this Detachment?
How are the Purifiers benefiting from this rule when the only reason they can be in Deep Strike Reserve is because of the pod?
The Pod is not, strictly, benefiting from the rule. It is merely rolling to come in "normally" as the DPA rule allows. "Normally" includes (but is not limited to) arriving as part of a Combined Unit. The Purifiers are the real unit coming in from reserves, and they bring the pod (as they "normally" would) by virtue of the Combined Units rule.
No one is disputing the Purifiers are in Deep Strike Reserves. The issue is not that the Purifiers do not have Deep Strike, but that they are embarked upon the Drop Pod, which is not in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment and is subject to the requirements for Drop Pod Assault.
You are stating the combined reserves roll is for a unit in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment, when it is a roll for a unit in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment embarked upon a unit not in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment. Permission is explicitly given for the former but that does not imply permisssion for the latter.
No, but they're only there because of the drop pod. Do they have a rule that would allow them to leave without the pod?
The problem lies in using a rule that only applies to units in the NSF detachment that the unit can only use because they're in a transport that's not in the NSF detachment.
Ghaz wrote: No, but they're only there because of the drop pod. Do they have a rule that would allow them to leave without the pod?
The problem lies in using a rule that only applies to units in the NSF detachment that the unit can only use because they're in a transport that's not in the NSF detachment.
Fortunately, the Transport's rules says that it rolls "normally" when it doesn't DPA. A "normal" state of a transport in DSR is to join a Combined Unit with the Unit it is transporting. So when we roll for the Purifiers, they include the pod (upon which they're embarked) along with any independent characters (such as a Lord Commissar) as part of the Combined Unit rules.
Ghaz wrote: No, but they're only there because of the drop pod. Do they have a rule that would allow them to leave without the pod?
No, but I don't need one.
I'm demonstrably rolling for the Purifiers. The fact that the Combined Units rule brings along the Pod is irrelevant.
The problem lies in using a rule that only applies to units in the NSF detachment that the unit can only use because they're in a transport that's not in the NSF detachment.
You've invented that problem. The rules don't have a problem with it.
They can arrive turn one on the drop pod because the drop pod follows rules for drop pod assault.
This is missing the question. The Question is "If all of my DPA pods have already dropped, can I roll for more pods on turn 1 if they have NSF units in their holds?"
I've not been commenting, but have read the entire thread.
I have to say that I'm convinced that RoT does not allow any additional pods to deepstrike on T1 beyond the 1/2 you get from DPA.
I'm also convinced that RoT does not allow you to put purifiers (or any other NSF unit) in a caestus assault ram or any other deepstriking transport and deepstrike that in T1.
I appreciate why all the Grey Knight players are fighting so hard for it, but come on. The name of the rule is Rites of TELEPORTATION, so RAI is obvious and after careful examination of the RAW the limitation of RoT to NSF units prevents inclusion of the drop pod (or any other deepstriking transport for that matter).
Claiming the "combined unit" argument is weak since the area of the rulebook that mentions combined units is not granting special permission for detachment rules from one faction to apply to an additional faction. Although an argument might be made for ICs since the rulebook does say that they become a part of the unit for all intents and purposes, no such statement is made concerning transports - it only says that you have permission to roll for them together but not that special rules for the unit inside are conferred to the transport.
blaktoof wrote: You are not rolling for the purifiers to come in.
You are rolling for a drop pod to arrive that has embarked models with it in deep strike reserves.
You get to roll 1 die for all of them to come in, but are subject to the rules of the units actually coming in.
for example, the drop pod does not have a way to DS in using RoT so you may not use RoT to bring it in.
also command benefits are special rules.
claiming RoT transfers to the transport when the rules clearly say no such thing, is silly.
Its like claiming if you have haywire on a model inside a transport, the transport has haywire.
Or if you put a model with DS inside a rhino, the rhino can DS since its a combined roll.
no rules support this point.
You are rolling for the purifiers - in the combined unit entry, it specifically states you can roll for the Unit or the transport/independent character, and then they all come in.
Unit1126PLL wrote: You are rolling for the purifiers - in the combined unit entry, it specifically states you can roll for the Unit or the transport/independent character, and then they all come in.
Shenanigans! The BRB actualy says "...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle. "
Its says "and/or" not "or". The trouble with that is "and/or" is an incredibly inappropriate conjunction to use. Its has essentially no useful meaning in the English language. In this case the sentence in the BRB means all of the following simultaneously.
...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character.
...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Transport vehicle.
...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit or its Independent Character.
...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit or its Transport vehicle.
Which takes presidence? The "and" or the "or"? If as you suggest the "or" is what matters then yes, the purifiers are entitled to a role on turn 1, and a successful role will essentially drag the drop pod in with the purifiers. However, if the "and" takes presidence the the purifiers roll on tuirn 1 is essentially forfeit because the drop pod is not entitled to a role that turn making it impossible use a single dice to make both roles.
The real bitch is that neither take presidence. They are both equally true and proper interpretations of the RAW at the same time. That's why I think its time to look at the RAI and as far as I can recall when you have combined units with different deployment options you are only able to use the options shared by all members of the unit.
Essentialy this boils down to an opinion measuring contest because some dick-hole at GW used "and/or".
You make a roll for a unit OR its transport. That same wording is one of the possible outcomes when you extrapolate the and/or out from the reserves section. Or are just some of those results okay, and the ones that debunk your position you just try to sweep under the carpet?
You aren't rolloing for the drop pod, you are rolling for the purifiers, because you are specifically allowed to just roll for them in a combined unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And, even if you were somehow obligitaed to roll for the entire combined unit, it is "normal" to bring purifiers in on turn one with a successful reserves roll, so it would be "normal" for them to bring in their transport.
And if you roll for the Purifiers and the Drop Pod comes along with them you are not rolling for the Drop Pod as normal. You are not rolling for the Drop Pod at all by that argument, which violates Drop Pod Assault either way.
A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.
- from deep strike and transports.
the transport is deep striking, regardless of if the squad inside has it or not, for a drop pod. Is the drop pod part of the NSF? No? Then it does not have access to rites of teleportation.
for combined roll you get 1 roll but it is a roll for a combined unit, you do not have permission to ignore the restrictions of the transport for the unit, nor do you have the permission to apply special rules from the unit to the transport within the rules for combined roll.
Even if you make 1 roll and can do it for either, which it does not state, you have no actual permission to extend the special rules from one to the other. As such if you do so, and claim the Drop Pod is coming in using a special rule it does not have nor has access to [rites of teleportation] you are either rules lawyering or cheating.
If you can show where it gives permission for you to extend rules that modify how one part of a unit arrives, to another part of the "combined unit" you would have a basis for discussion, as it is there is no basis for discussion on the rules. There is simply the rules now allowing this for permission, and some people discussing what they personally feel is "implied". It is as silly as claiming you can embark on a titan and DS the titan if the unit embarked has deep strike because combined rolls imply you can do it because somehow you are claiming the unit is arriving from reserves and gets to bring the other units. Which is not what combined rules states, it states you make 1 roll for the units arriving together. There is no permission to ignore any of the units restrictions on how/when they arrive.
siege2142 wrote: That's not how it reads raw. Raw, it says roll for the unit AND/OR transport AND/OR ic's.
And just because dpa reminds you about the reserve rules doesn't mean you are required to use that specific rule over any other.
It says, "The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally."
You've insisted that the Drop Pod is not being rolled for and that it is the Purifiers being rolled for and the Drop Pod just happens to come along, and yet Drop Pod Assault (which by taking a Drop Pod must be followed) requires you to roll for the Drop Pod, and indeed, "as normal". Even if you do roll for the Drop Pod and somehow manage to transfer Rites of Teleportation to it (which you have not illustrated), Rites of Teleportation is not how a Drop Pod is rolled for "as normal".
You are simply dodging rules at this point. You cannot ignore the rules for Drop Pod Assault to enable the interaction with Rites of Teleportation to work. There is one way these rules all interact together without breaking any of them, and that is by the Purifiers and Drop Pod being rolled for on turn two onwards.
I've sufficiently provided all the evidence a normal and sane person would need to understand how it works. Your refusals based on "nu-uh!" And "drop pods dont teleport" do nothing to add to the conversation.
siege2142 wrote: I've sufficiently provided all the evidence a normal and sane person would need to understand how it works. Your refusals based on "nu-uh!" And "drop pods dont teleport" do nothing to add to the conversation.
I've never said either of those things, and your resorting to stating such, particularly in such a manner, is a pretty poor indictment of your motives here.
Indeed, you are the one resorting to "nuh-uh" by claiming the Drop Pod Assault rules don't need to be complied with as I've stated (and in fact quoted). Instead of belittling you for it however, I've simply asked you to back that up with rules as I have.
No, you're rolling for the unit and/or tranport/IC's.
If it has a transport, you're rolling for unit AND transport. Not just one of them.
Thats the problem with "and/or" being used. Its not clear if they want you to roll for the unit OR the transport, or if you should be rolling for the unit AND the transport. The use of "and/or" suggests that both are the correct methods.
DJGietzen wrote: Essentialy this boils down to an opinion measuring contest because some dick-hole at GW used "and/or".
You're over thinking that one a bit, it's appropriate terminology.
Since its a combined unit, the unit in question must have something attached. Either IC's, a transport, or both.
This is your and/or
It's either IC's or Transport
Or it's IC's and Transport.
If it's neither, it's not a combined unit, so you're looking at the wrong rule.
and/or is perfectly fine in this case.
Not quite. The situation your describing would come from this...
...when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character and/or transport.
There are other... issues GW created when they chose to use a / to separate "Independent Character" and "transport" in that sentence but they are more forgivable because the context provides us with a clear understanding of what was intended.
There is a big flaw in arguing this And/Or anyway:
Per the deep strike rules:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
So, as per your argument, you may:
A) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Transport Vehicle.
B) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Unit of purifiers.
You then have to follow, per RaW: "then deploy them as follows".
For "A", this is easy.... we all do it when we use Drop Pods.
Please explain to me clearly how "B" works? I though they disembarked from the Pod, meaning you're actually using "A" and rolling for the transport in any case (even with 'OR').
Are you placing 1 Purifier and then deploying the Pod in Coherency?
Kinda curious but if I have a unit that is embarked on a vehicle that does not have Deep Strike USR but the unit on it does have Deep Strike usr. I can make them a Combined Reserve Unit in Deep Strike Reserve and deep strike the vehicle that doesn't have Deep Strike just by saying "oh I'm rolling my reserve for the unit with Deep Strike not the vehicle but they both come in anyway"
The Deep Strike USR doesn't confer to the Vehicle but thats fine because it got into DSR because of the unit with Deep Strike is in there?
This is exactly the same as the Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and RoT.
Oberron wrote: Kinda curious but if I have a unit that is embarked on a vehicle that does not have Deep Strike USR but the unit on it does have Deep Strike usr. I can make them a Combined Reserve Unit in Deep Strike Reserve and deep strike the vehicle that doesn't have Deep Strike just by saying "oh I'm rolling my reserve for the unit with Deep Strike not the vehicle but they both come in anyway"
The Deep Strike USR doesn't confer to the Vehicle but thats fine because it got into DSR because of the unit with Deep Strike is in there?
This is exactly the same as the Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and RoT.
Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.
As to "And/Or", this is a Boolean Logic statement, for determining an outcome based on criteria being met or not met. "And" is the requirement that both A and B are met. "Or" is the requirement that either A or B is met (but not both). "And/Or" is the requirement that either A, B, or A and B are met. Per the Combine Unit rules, the "And/Or" statement allows either the Unit, any ICs, the Transport, or the Unit + ICs + Transport to roll to arrive. Bool was a lawyer that invited Boolean Logic as a way to determine how cases can be won based on the criteria being met, such as evidence, eye witness testimony, motive, and/or allibey. Bool inadvertently also created the logic structure of modern day electronics, which relies on And gates, Or gates, And/Or gates, Nand gates (not And), and Nor gates (not Or). So, from a language point of view, the Combined Unit rules are quite clear on you the player being able to chose the Unit, any attached ICs, and/or the Transport to roll to arrive, with the collective units in the group arriving together based on that roll. This rule infact transcends any general requirements to roll separately for each unit.
Battle Brothers allows for units not of the same Faction to be treated as the same Faction for purposes of embarking on Transports, being targeted by powers, and/or benefiting from army abilities. Stupidly overpowered, but it's RAW.
Rites of Teleportation only requires that a unit in a NSF be in Deep Strike Reserves in order to qualify for the Turn 1 arrival benefit, as well as the Battle Focus for the Turn of arrival benefit. Rites does not include language restricting these benefits to only GK models, as seen in the newer BA codex, nor does it contain language restricting it to only NSF units (such as an added clause like "may not benefit if a Combined Unit").
The tactic in question is whether or not a unit of NSF Purifiers embarked on a SW Fast choice Drop Pod can roll to arrive by Deep Strike on Turn 1 if the unit did not already arrive via Drop Pod Assault?
Are the NSF Purifiers in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes, per the rules for Deep Striking a Transport.
Can the NSF Purifiers roll to arrive on Turn 1? Yes, per the rules for Rites of Teleportation.
Does this effect the Drop Pod? Yes, per the rules for Combined Units.
All conditions are met for this tactic to legally work.
On a side note: I actually don't use this tactic, because I play pure GK or GK/IK armies. However, I do support legal tactics supported by RAW.
2nd side note: Sorry about the late reply, I'm providing security for ESPN at the Super Bowl this week, so can't reply as frequently as "normal".
jeffersonian000 wrote: Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USRdoes confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.
Please stop making up rules.
"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."
jeffersonian000 wrote: Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USRdoes confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.
Please stop making up rules.
"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."
Nothing made up. You in fact just posted proof of implied permission. Congradulations!
jeffersonian000 wrote: Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USRdoes confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.
Please stop making up rules.
"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."
Nothing made up. You in fact just posted proof of implied permission. Congradulations!
SJ
"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."
The above never implies that the passengers get Deep Strike USR from their transport. That is completely made up. Do you even understand the above phrase?
Transport can deep strike regardless of what passengers have = / = Passengers get DS conferred from the Transport. Left is the actual RaW. Right is you completely making up rules out of non-existent "implications".
I am trying VERY hard not to consider your posts trolling, out of curtsey.....
"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."
Now look at mine:
"Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers."
Do you understand what the word "confer" means? It means that while the passengers might not have the Deep Strike USR, the Transport with the USR will still Deep Strike and bring the passengers with it, and that the passengers still count as having arrived by Deep Strike. The passengers can't move after arriving other than to disembark or run, they can only snap fire Heavy Weapons due to having already "moved", and they have literally just arrived by Deep Strike! Without the Deep Strike USR! Because the Transport had the USR!
SGTPozy wrote: The passengers do not gain the deep strike rule though. Just because the transport is deep striking it doesn't mean that the occupants gain the rule.
The transport arrives from deep strike whilst the passengers arrived from reserves.
They arrived from Deep Strike Reserves, explicitly. Because they both start the game in Deep Strike Reserves, and arrive from it using the Combined Units rules.
SGTPozy wrote: The passengers do not gain the deep strike rule though. Just because the transport is deep striking it doesn't mean that the occupants gain the rule.
The transport arrives from deep strike whilst the passengers arrived from reserves.
The passengers were in Deep Strike Reserve with the Transport. The passengers arrived with the Transport by Deep Strike. Per the Deep Strike USR, Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserve are the same. While the passengers might not have the Deep Strike USR, the Transport does, and by Deep Striking, the Transport had conferred the Deep Strike rule to its passengers. Yes, the passengers arrived from Reserves. So did their Transport.
"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."
Now look at mine:
"Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers."
SJ
redacted
"A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not."
Is a direct quote from the 40k 7th Edition Rulebook
Oberron wrote: Kinda curious but if I have a unit that is embarked on a vehicle that does not have Deep Strike USR but the unit on it does have Deep Strike usr. I can make them a Combined Reserve Unit in Deep Strike Reserve and deep strike the vehicle that doesn't have Deep Strike just by saying "oh I'm rolling my reserve for the unit with Deep Strike not the vehicle but they both come in anyway"
The Deep Strike USR doesn't confer to the Vehicle but thats fine because it got into DSR because of the unit with Deep Strike is in there?
This is exactly the same as the Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and RoT.
Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.
As to "And/Or", this is a Boolean Logic statement, for determining an outcome based on criteria being met or not met. "And" is the requirement that both A and B are met. "Or" is the requirement that either A or B is met (but not both). "And/Or" is the requirement that either A, B, or A and B are met. Per the Combine Unit rules, the "And/Or" statement allows either the Unit, any ICs, the Transport, or the Unit + ICs + Transport to roll to arrive. Bool was a lawyer that invited Boolean Logic as a way to determine how cases can be won based on the criteria being met, such as evidence, eye witness testimony, motive, and/or allibey. Bool inadvertently also created the logic structure of modern day electronics, which relies on And gates, Or gates, And/Or gates, Nand gates (not And), and Nor gates (not Or). So, from a language point of view, the Combined Unit rules are quite clear on you the player being able to chose the Unit, any attached ICs, and/or the Transport to roll to arrive, with the collective units in the group arriving together based on that roll. This rule infact transcends any general requirements to roll separately for each unit.
Battle Brothers allows for units not of the same Faction to be treated as the same Faction for purposes of embarking on Transports, being targeted by powers, and/or benefiting from army abilities. Stupidly overpowered, but it's RAW.
Rites of Teleportation only requires that a unit in a NSF be in Deep Strike Reserves in order to qualify for the Turn 1 arrival benefit, as well as the Battle Focus for the Turn of arrival benefit. Rites does not include language restricting these benefits to only GK models, as seen in the newer BA codex, nor does it contain language restricting it to only NSF units (such as an added clause like "may not benefit if a Combined Unit").
The tactic in question is whether or not a unit of NSF Purifiers embarked on a SW Fast choice Drop Pod can roll to arrive by Deep Strike on Turn 1 if the unit did not already arrive via Drop Pod Assault?
Are the NSF Purifiers in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes, per the rules for Deep Striking a Transport.
Can the NSF Purifiers roll to arrive on Turn 1? Yes, per the rules for Rites of Teleportation.
Does this effect the Drop Pod? Yes, per the rules for Combined Units.
All conditions are met for this tactic to legally work.
On a side note: I actually don't use this tactic, because I play pure GK or GK/IK armies. However, I do support legal tactics supported by RAW.
2nd side note: Sorry about the late reply, I'm providing security for ESPN at the Super Bowl this week, so can't reply as frequently as "normal".
SJ
this is not true.
a transport has permission to Deep strike even if the squad inside does not, the transport does not confer deep strike onto the unit inside.
This is in no way a tactic allowable within the rules.
blaktoof wrote: You are not rolling for the purifiers to come in.
You are rolling for a drop pod to arrive that has embarked models with it in deep strike reserves.
You get to roll 1 die for all of them to come in, but are subject to the rules of the units actually coming in.
for example, the drop pod does not have a way to DS in using RoT so you may not use RoT to bring it in.
also command benefits are special rules.
claiming RoT transfers to the transport when the rules clearly say no such thing, is silly.
Its like claiming if you have haywire on a model inside a transport, the transport has haywire.
Or if you put a model with DS inside a rhino, the rhino can DS since its a combined roll.
no rules support this point.
You are rolling for the purifiers - in the combined unit entry, it specifically states you can roll for the Unit or the transport/independent character, and then they all come in.
You are not rolling for the purifiers.
You are rolling for the combined unit, which is all the models in the unit(s) to arrive at the same time.
If this rule didnt exist and you embarked an unit on a transport you would have to roll for the transport and the unit separately and there is a very good chance both would not arrive at the same time. This rule exist to allow units that could normally arrive at a certain point in the game to arrive together. It does not give permission in any way to confer rules from one unit onto another within the combined reserves, nor does it give permission to ignore restrictions on how units can arrive together. Ie if you put an unit with DS in a rhino, you cannot roll for the unit to DS and bring the rhino. IE if you have deathwing terminators with DWA on turn 1 in a stormraven, they do not give DWA to the stormraven and allow it to arrive turn 1.
In the case of a transport
A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.
-from "Deep strike and Transports" in the BRB
When you make the combined roll for the an unit embarked in a DSing transport you are making 1 roll for them all to arrive, you are not making 1 roll based solely on the unit inside to arrive- there is no such rule anywhere at all nor any support for it.
In the above case of a DSing transport, you have for example a Drop Pod and a Squad of purifiers embarked in it. They are held in DS reserves. The transport arrives by DS, as it is the one following the rules "arriving by deepstrike" You roll for its arrival from reserves..
Arriving by Deep Strike Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive..
You do not roll for the purifiers. You are not placing the purifiers you are placing the transport, it is the one arriving by deep strike as per the RAW.
There is no permission for the drop pod to use RoT, none.
siege2142 wrote: That's not how it reads raw. Raw, it says roll for the unit AND/OR transport AND/OR ic's.
And just because dpa reminds you about the reserve rules doesn't mean you are required to use that specific rule over any other.
It says, "The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally."
And what is normal for units with RoT?
If you accept that the roll is for the Drop Pod (as Drop Pod Assault requires) then that's irrelevant; you cannot make a Rites of Teleportation roll for the Drop Pod because it's not a unit in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment.
Oberron wrote: Kinda curious but if I have a unit that is embarked on a vehicle that does not have Deep Strike USR but the unit on it does have Deep Strike usr. I can make them a Combined Reserve Unit in Deep Strike Reserve and deep strike the vehicle that doesn't have Deep Strike just by saying "oh I'm rolling my reserve for the unit with Deep Strike not the vehicle but they both come in anyway"
The Deep Strike USR doesn't confer to the Vehicle but thats fine because it got into DSR because of the unit with Deep Strike is in there?
This is exactly the same as the Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and RoT.
Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.
As to "And/Or", this is a Boolean Logic statement, for determining an outcome based on criteria being met or not met. "And" is the requirement that both A and B are met. "Or" is the requirement that either A or B is met (but not both). "And/Or" is the requirement that either A, B, or A and B are met. Per the Combine Unit rules, the "And/Or" statement allows either the Unit, any ICs, the Transport, or the Unit + ICs + Transport to roll to arrive. Bool was a lawyer that invited Boolean Logic as a way to determine how cases can be won based on the criteria being met, such as evidence, eye witness testimony, motive, and/or allibey. Bool inadvertently also created the logic structure of modern day electronics, which relies on And gates, Or gates, And/Or gates, Nand gates (not And), and Nor gates (not Or). So, from a language point of view, the Combined Unit rules are quite clear on you the player being able to chose the Unit, any attached ICs, and/or the Transport to roll to arrive, with the collective units in the group arriving together based on that roll. This rule infact transcends any general requirements to roll separately for each unit.
Battle Brothers allows for units not of the same Faction to be treated as the same Faction for purposes of embarking on Transports, being targeted by powers, and/or benefiting from army abilities. Stupidly overpowered, but it's RAW.
Rites of Teleportation only requires that a unit in a NSF be in Deep Strike Reserves in order to qualify for the Turn 1 arrival benefit, as well as the Battle Focus for the Turn of arrival benefit. Rites does not include language restricting these benefits to only GK models, as seen in the newer BA codex, nor does it contain language restricting it to only NSF units (such as an added clause like "may not benefit if a Combined Unit").
The tactic in question is whether or not a unit of NSF Purifiers embarked on a SW Fast choice Drop Pod can roll to arrive by Deep Strike on Turn 1 if the unit did not already arrive via Drop Pod Assault?
Are the NSF Purifiers in Deep Strike Reserves? Yes, per the rules for Deep Striking a Transport.
Can the NSF Purifiers roll to arrive on Turn 1? Yes, per the rules for Rites of Teleportation.
Does this effect the Drop Pod? Yes, per the rules for Combined Units.
All conditions are met for this tactic to legally work.
On a side note: I actually don't use this tactic, because I play pure GK or GK/IK armies. However, I do support legal tactics supported by RAW.
2nd side note: Sorry about the late reply, I'm providing security for ESPN at the Super Bowl this week, so can't reply as frequently as "normal".
SJ
this is not true.
a transport has permission to Deep strike even if the squad inside does not, the transport does not confer deep strike onto the unit inside.
This is in no way a tactic allowable within the rules.
blaktoof wrote: You are not rolling for the purifiers to come in.
You are rolling for a drop pod to arrive that has embarked models with it in deep strike reserves.
You get to roll 1 die for all of them to come in, but are subject to the rules of the units actually coming in.
for example, the drop pod does not have a way to DS in using RoT so you may not use RoT to bring it in.
also command benefits are special rules.
claiming RoT transfers to the transport when the rules clearly say no such thing, is silly.
Its like claiming if you have haywire on a model inside a transport, the transport has haywire.
Or if you put a model with DS inside a rhino, the rhino can DS since its a combined roll.
no rules support this point.
You are rolling for the purifiers - in the combined unit entry, it specifically states you can roll for the Unit or the transport/independent character, and then they all come in.
You are not rolling for the purifiers.
You are rolling for the combined unit, which is all the models in the unit(s) to arrive at the same time.
If this rule didnt exist and you embarked an unit on a transport you would have to roll for the transport and the unit separately and there is a very good chance both would not arrive at the same time. This rule exist to allow units that could normally arrive at a certain point in the game to arrive together. [b] It does not give permission in any way to confer rules from one unit onto another within the combined reserves, nor does it give permission to ignore restrictions on how units can arrive together. Ie if you put an unit with DS in a rhino, you cannot roll for the unit to DS and bring the rhino. IE if you have deathwing terminators with DWA on turn 1 in a stormraven, they do not give DWA to the stormraven and allow it to arrive turn 1.
In the case of a transport
A Transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not.
-from "Deep strike and Transports" in the BRB
When you make the combined roll for the an unit embarked in a DSing transport you are making 1 roll for them all to arrive, you are not making 1 roll based solely on the unit inside to arrive- there is no such rule anywhere at all nor any support for it.
In the above case of a DSing transport, you have for example a Drop Pod and a Squad of purifiers embarked in it. They are held in DS reserves. The transport arrives by DS, as it is the one following the rules "arriving by deepstrike" You roll for its arrival from reserves..
[b]Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive..
You do not roll for the purifiers. You are not placing the purifiers you are placing the transport, it is the one arriving by deep strike as per the RAW.
There is no permission for the drop pod to use RoT, none.
Look at that emphasized bold line. "This rule allows units that could arrive at a CERTAIN POINT to arrive together". The purifiers can arrive at the certain point of turn one, thanks to being in ds reserve and NSF.
So glad that you are finally starting to see reason and are willing to not bestubburn in thinking your way is the only way raw.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, my mistake blaktoof, I didn't read the rest of your post till now. Way to be willfully ignorant and one of the biggest trolls on the forums.
siege2142 wrote: Oh, my mistake blaktoof, I didn't read the rest of your post till now. Way to be willfully ignorant and one of the biggest trolls on the forums.
You've done this several times already and it's tiresome. Instead of attacking the poster try attacking their argument, addressing their points with counterpoints. That's how a robust discussion and reasonable argument is meant to go.
I did, see the first half of that post where I quoted him saying "This rule exist to allow units that could normally arrive at a certain point in the game to arrive together."
The problem with trying to use RoT on purifiers in an allied drop pod is that the purifiers are not allowed to arrive by deep strike. I know that this has been said several times, but it seems like it's being ignored.
The purifiers are in reserves, yes, but they are not able to deepstrike because they lack the deepstrike USR. You put them in a drop pod and they will go into deepstrike reserves with the pod, but only because the pod can deepstrike.
If you want to roll for the purifiers and not the pod, you can't put them in deepstrike reserves. If you want to roll for the pod and the unit inside, you have to roll for the pod - not the purifiers - and the pod does not benefit from the RoT because it is not a part of the NSF detachment.
Just because you are allowed to make a single roll for the entire unit does not give you express permission to use the passenger's special rules to bring the pod in early - it only gives you permission to roll one dice for everything.
In this case, if you want to deepstrike, you will have to use the pod's rules for deployment, not the purifier's rules for deployment.
siege2142 wrote: I did, see the first half of that post where I quoted him saying "This rule exist to allow units that could normally arrive at a certain point in the game to arrive together."
He then went on toargue counter to that point.
Earlier in the thread you accused me of making posts that add nothing to the conversation.
Quoting a lengthy post, making a brief counter point (without explanation and which does not actually address the full post quoted) and finising it with calling the person a troll truly does add nothing to the discussion.
You are cherry picking rules to your convenience and patently ignoring where we point out to you how the game mechanics fail when your reasoning is adopted.
These are the points you have to overcome, in summary:
Rites of Teleportation allows you to make reserve rolls on turn one for units in a NSF Detachment which are in Deep Strike Reserves.
Drop Pod Assault allows you to embark units upon a drop pod, which places them into Deep Strike Reserves along with the Drop Pod, and requires you to roll for the half of your Drop Pods that does not arrive on turn one as per Drop Pod Assault as normal.
Combined Reserve Units requires you to make one roll for the unit and/or attached IC/transport.
You must make one roll for the Purifiers/Drop Pod combined reserve unit.
Drop Pod Assault requires that the Drop Pod be rolled for as normal.
Drop Pod Assault in combination with the rules for Deep Strike requires that the Drop Pod be placed on the board first (because otherwise the Purifiers have nothing to disembark from).
Making a roll for the Purifiers violates Drop Pod Assault's requirement that the Drop Pod be rolled for as normal.
Making a roll for the Purifiers violates the rules for Deep Strike in combination with Drop Pod Assault, as the Purifiers must disembark from the Drop Pod, and cannot therefore be placed before the Drop Pod.
The Drop Pod therefore must be rolled for, and Rites of Teleportation does not apply to rollign for the Drop Pod because it is not a unit in a NSF Detachment.
You quote the combined reserves rule, but you lack understanding in its meaning. You make one roll for the unit and/OR its transport/ic.
The arrival of your remaining drop pods are rolled for normally. Normally would include rolling for a unit imbarked inside of them.
NSF does not require a unit to be deep striking to be able to roll for reserves on turn one, it only requires they be in deep strike reserves, which they are thanks to the drop pod.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would you argue that if I had a +1 bonus Tony reserve rolls, I wouldn't be able to use it to modify my reserve roll for the drop PD, because that wouldn't be "normal"?
siege2142 wrote: You quote the combined reserves rule, but you lack understanding in its meaning. You make one roll for the unit and/OR its transport/ic.
The arrival of your remaining drop pods are rolled for normally. Normally would include rolling for a unit imbarked inside of them.
NSF does not require a unit to be deep striking to be able to roll for reserves on turn one, it only requires they be in deep strike reserves, which they are thanks to the drop pod.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would you argue that if I had a +1 bonus Tony reserve rolls, I wouldn't be able to use it to modify my reserve roll for the drop PD, because that wouldn't be "normal"?
If your +1 bonus was just for your NSF detachment units, yes. Yes I would.
Also, when you make a combined reserves roll, there is nothing that states the element of the you it you roll for has tone placed first, it says they arrive together. Which means, when things have to happen simultaneously, the controlling player chooses the order.
There is a precedence for this in the shooting phase. When a unit shoots, all weapons are fired at the same time, but the controlling player chooses weapons to fire and resolve one at a time.
siege2142 wrote: You quote the combined reserves rule, but you lack understanding in its meaning. You make one roll for the unit and/OR its transport/ic.
That's not in dispute. It's the other rules and their mechanics which necessitate that the Drop Pod must be rolled for.
The arrival of your remaining drop pods are rolled for normally. Normally would include rolling for a unit imbarked inside of them.
And yet the mechanics fail if you make your combined roll for the Purifiers.
NSF does not require a unit to be deep striking to be able to roll for reserves on turn one, it only requires they be in deep strike reserves, which they are thanks to the drop pod.
That's great, but you still have to make the combined roll under the Drop Pod, not the Purifiers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would you argue that if I had a +1 bonus Tony reserve rolls, I wouldn't be able to use it to modify my reserve roll for the drop PD, because that wouldn't be "normal"?
Only if I first actually considered it and also wanted to get into a robust discussion specifically in terms of RAW. I don't play actual games under strict RAW, though.
Regardless, in this case what is normal for Purifiers embarked on a Drop Pod does not apply to the Drop Pod itself. It is the Purifiers being embarked on the Drop Pod who gain the benefit of Rites of Teleportation (as they are in Deep Strike Reserves by virtue of being embarked) but you still need to be able to roll for the Purifiers and you cannot - you must roll for the Drop Pod.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
siege2142 wrote: Also, when you make a combined reserves roll, there is nothing that states the element of the you it you roll for has tone placed first, it says they arrive together. Which means, when things have to happen simultaneously, the controlling player chooses the order.
The Drop Pod must be placed first, because the Purifiers are required to immediately disembark from it. Therefore the Drop Pod must be the unit rolled for the combined reserve unit.
siege2142 wrote: Also, when you make a combined reserves roll, there is nothing that states the element of the you it you roll for has tone placed first, it says they arrive together. Which means, when things have to happen simultaneously, the controlling player chooses the order.
There is a precedence for this in the shooting phase. When a unit shoots, all weapons are fired at the same time, but the controlling player chooses weapons to fire and resolve one at a time.
Saying they arrive together is a little misleading. The troops are not placed on the table simultaneously with the transport. The transport deepstrikes onto the table. You place the transport, then you roll scatter dice, then after placing the transport in it's final location, the troops disembark. This is why you have to use the transport's rules for deployment and not the unit inside.
If I put deepstriking or outflanking troops in a transport, the transport is not given permission do deploy by the passenger's special rules - with the exception of when the transport is a dedicated transport, and then only outflanking or infiltrating is expressly allowed (AFAIK). So saying that because you roll for them together, you get to apply your detachment specific special rule to a non-dedicated transport is more than a little difficult to believe, it's just wrong.
The combined roll is 1 roll for the units combined to arrive together, but there is no permission to use the rules from one unit to benefit the others who are not allowed to use the rules and could not normally arrive then. It is not 1 roll using the rules for one of the units to allow the rest to arrive, and there is no such rules support for that.
and the argument that the purifiers are allowed to arrive turn 1 is false. They are allowed to start on the board, if you put them in reserves on their own they would not be deep striking and would not be using RoT.
When you roll for the combined unit to arrive, are you putting down a model from the NSF detachment or a space wolves/BA detachment and following the rules under "arriving by deepstrike"?
obviously its not an unit from the NSF detachment that you are placing and rolling for.
blaktoof wrote: The combined roll is 1 roll for the units combined to arrive together, but there is no permission to use the rules from one unit to benefit the others who are not allowed to use the rules and could not normally arrive then. It is not 1 roll using the rules for one of the units to allow the rest to arrive, and there is no such rules support for that.
The marked passage is an incorrect statement. The Combined Unit rules provides permission via the clause regarding rolling once for the unit and/or attached ICs and Transports. Further, Deep Striking Transport rules provide permission to allow embarked passengers to arrive via Deep Strike regardless of whether or not the passengers have the Deep Strike USR. Those are two specific examples of rules that provide permission for abilities of one or more units to benefit another. A third example is Battle Brothers.
and the argument that the purifiers are allowed to arrive turn 1 is false. They are allowed to start on the board, if you put them in reserves on their own they would not be deep striking and would not be using RoT.
When you roll for the combined unit to arrive, are you putting down a model from the NSF detachment or a space wolves/BA detachment and following the rules under "arriving by deepstrike"?
obviously its not an unit from the NSF detachment that you are placing and rolling for.
Another set of incorrect statements. The only conditions that need to be met to gain the benefits of Rites of Teleportation is for the unit to 1) be a member of a Nemesis Strike Force, and 2) be in Deep Strike Reseves. A unit of Purifiers in a NSF meets criteria 1. Being Battle Brothers with a detachment of Space Wolves or Blood Angels that take non-dedicated Drop Pods allows the NSF Purifiers the option to start the game embarked on one or more of those Fast choice, non-dedicated Drop Pods per the Drop Pod Assault rules, which meets criteria 2. Combined Unit rules allows the controlling player to roll to arrive once for the Purifiers, the Drop Pod, and any attached ICs, which can be as soon as Turn 1 due to the Purifiers meeting criteria 1 and 2.
In order prove that NSF Purifiers cannot use Rites while embarked on a Battle Brother non-Dedicated Drop Pod, you would have to cite an actual rule that specifically blocks it from occurring due to the overwhelming permissions that exist which allow it to occur, the permissions being Battle Brothers, Combined Units, and the non-exclusive wording of Rites.
the marked passage is not incorrect. There is no permission in combined reserves to ignore restrictions on one unit arriving because another unit int he combined reserves has a different rule that the other unit does not.
and regardless
When you are performing "arriving by deepstrike"
Which model are you rolling for when you place the drop pod on the table and roll scatter? Which detachment is it in?
and lastly your final comment, RoT benefits units arriving from deep strike reserves with run and shoot, the rule you are trying to use that lets you arrive turn one on a 3+ does not state anything about deep strike reserves in that part of the rule.
Blaktoof, buy the grey knights book and read the rule. Until then, please stop spamming class, muddled rules as truth. Thank you.
NSF says that "a unit from the NSF that is in deep strike reserves may attempt to come in from deep strike reserves from turn one on the roll of a 3+". It specifically mentions deep strike reserve in the grey knights codex in the NSF rule.
Just because someone rolls for the purifiers to arrive from a combined unit does not mean that the puridpfiers have to hit the table first. That is why they are a combined unit, I can place the pod first, resolve, then move on to the purifiers.
so you roll for the purifiers to arrive and place the Drop pod unit from a different detachment that does not have the rule that lets models from the NSF arrive turn 1...
makes no sense, and has no rules support.
Also I have quoted the rule, so maybe you aren't the only person who managed to acquire a GK codex
You edited your statement to remove the quote I was talking about, and are now trying to play it cool.
Regardless, Jeffersonian, siege2142, and I have quoted rules allowing purifiers and pods to arrive on turn one. We've all shown the permission to roll for a specific part of a combined unit, we've shown that a combined unit arrives together. When a combined unit arrives together, you then deploy that combined unit.
Neither you nor talons have shown any solid evidence that rules as currently written do not work that way.
blaktoof wrote: Im not sure if you are serious at this point.
However I will respond as if you are.
the marked passage is not incorrect. There is no permission in combined reserves to ignore restrictions on one unit arriving because another unit int he combined reserves has a different rule that the other unit does not.
and regardless
When you are performing "arriving by deepstrike"
Which model are you rolling for when you place the drop pod on the table and roll scatter? Which detachment is it in?
and lastly your final comment, RoT benefits units arriving from deep strike reserves with run and shoot, the rule you are trying to use that lets you arrive turn one on a 3+ does not state anything about deep strike reserves in that part of the rule.
everything you are saying is blatantly false.
You must be mad, because your syntex is horrible.
Let me attempt to instruct you on basic reading comprehension what it comes to game rules, specifically Warhammer 40,000. The rules start off with general concepts to build the basic structure of the game, sometimes referred to as the core rules, general rules, main rules, or basic rules. As the rules become more specific, or advance, in concept, it is sometimes referred to is advance rules, more specific rules, or special rules.
The argument we are chasing our tails on is based on basic rules informing us on Reserves and how to deploy from Reserves. A more advanced concept is Deep Striking, how to Deep Strike, who can Deep Strike, etc.. An even more advance set of rules is how Transports interact with Deep Strike, how units with attacked Independent Characters interact with the rules in general and in specific such as Deep Strike, etc..
When basic rules inform us on restrictions, yet another rule informs us of specific exceptions, those exceptions are sometimes referred to as permission. Permission can be given to do something in the game you normally could not do, and occasionally an even more specific restriction will override a permission in very specific instances, to which another even more specific permission might bypass the previous restriction, and so on.
And so it is with our argument.
We have permission to embark Battle Brother GK Purifiers onto SW non-dedicated Drop Pods, which normally cannot be done without the permission given via the Detachment rules and Battle Brother rules. See where I going with this?
We have permission for a combined unit of non-faction models to start in Reserves together, to roll to arrive together, to occupy the same space, and share certain benefits either directly or indirectly, all through a series of restrictions and permissions.
Back to our argument.
The NSF Purifier unit has permission to enter Deep Strike Reserves via being embarked on a Transport that must start in Deep Strike Reserves. Because the NSF Purifiers now meet a specific set of restrictions from its own detachment, permission is granted to use a benefit named Rites of Teleportation, which modifies the the turn at which the a Purifiers may enter play via Deep Strike. Thankfully, the rules support this new arrival time by giving the controlling player permission to roll to enter for the Purifiers and the Drop Pod at the same time using a single die roll per the set of rules known as Combined Reserved Units. Also thankfully, the rules grant the player the option of choosing the unit of the two to roll for, which means the player has permission to roll to arrive on a Turn 1, bypassing the usual restriction of not being able to rolling until Turn 2.
This is how a permissive rule set works, and this is why the tactic in question does work. This is also why the attempts to disprove the tactic fail, because a more specific restriction has not been produced to counter the permissions noted. When you say, "it doesn't work because the more general rule says so," and we tell you, "yes, however, this more specific rule says we can," we aren't making the false statement; You are.
Everyone cool it or else more warnings will be handed out. Argue politely or don't argue at all. Argue politely or you may need to have a holiday from arguing on dakka dakka at all
you still have yet to show any rule which allows for you to give the units in the combined reserves roll all the special rules that only apply to one of the units.
As this is now 6 pages, perhaps there is a problem in understanding.
Lets use an example.
Imagine I have an unit, and I put an IC with it. The unit moves 6" a turn. The IC moves 12" a turn. The unit+IC is now one unit, but they move 6" a turn not 12" You could reverse the IC and the units movement and have the same result.
lets look at the purifiers.
Do not have DS, but have rites of teleportation.
Drop Pod, does have DS, has DSA, and units can embark on it. It may deep strike even if the units embarked cannot.
You can make 1 roll to have both arrive. You claim you have permission to roll turn 1 for the pod using RoT despite no rule actually stating so, nor the rules for RoT stating they confer to a transport an unit with the special rule is embarked upon if the transport does not have it.
So yes the models in the NSF detachment have the RoT special rule, but that does not mean they can always use it. Example. A land raider bought from the NSF does not have DS, but still has the Rites of teleportation rule, even though it has no way to use it. Embarking an unit with DS does not allow you to rollow for the land raider to DS despite them being in combined reserves and the embarked unit being "allowed to DS turn 1 because RoT"
you are still limited by the models in the "combined" unit that do not have access to do things other models may be able to do, because there is no permission to ignore their restrictions, and there is no permission to make the roll based on the special rules of just one of the units in the 'combined unit'
you still have yet to show any rule which allows for you to give the units in the combined reserves roll all the special rules that only apply to one of the units.
As this is now 6 pages, perhaps there is a problem in understanding.
Lets use an example.
Imagine I have an unit, and I put an IC with it. The unit moves 6" a turn. The IC moves 12" a turn. The unit+IC is now one unit, but they move 6" a turn not 12" You could reverse the IC and the units movement and have the same result.
lets look at the purifiers.
Do not have DS, but have rites of teleportation.
Drop Pod, does have DS, has DSA, and units can embark on it. It may deep strike even if the units embarked cannot.
You can make 1 roll to have both arrive. You claim you have permission to roll turn 1 for the pod using RoT despite no rule actually stating so, nor the rules for RoT stating they confer to a transport an unit with the special rule is embarked upon if the transport does not have it.
So yes the models in the NSF detachment have the RoT special rule, but that does not mean they can always use it. Example. A land raider bought from the NSF does not have DS, but still has the Rites of teleportation rule, even though it has no way to use it. Embarking an unit with DS does not allow you to rollow for the land raider to DS despite them being in combined reserves and the embarked unit being "allowed to DS turn 1 because RoT"
you are still limited by the models in the "combined" unit that do not have access to do things other models may be able to do, because there is no permission to ignore their restrictions, and there is no permission to make the roll based on the special rules of just one of the units in the 'combined unit'
Please see my previous posts for all of the relevent rules, restrictions, and interactions. Chosing not to read the posts mentioned is on you, not me.
By the way, asking me to re-post citations I've and others have already posted numerous times in this very thread does not alleviate you from the burden of providing your own citations to support your premiss. My case is solidly support by written rules; please support your case the same if you wish to be taken seriously.
greytalon666 wrote: Movement and combined reserves are to different rules. They have NOTHING to do with each other.
It was a valid if misguided attempt. Movement does have restrictions and permissions, yet there are no overriding permissions that bypass the restriction on all models in the unit move at the speed of the slowest model (called "Flank Speed", if using naval terms).
you still have yet to show any rule which allows for you to give the units in the combined reserves roll all the special rules that only apply to one of the units.
As this is now 6 pages, perhaps there is a problem in understanding.
Lets use an example.
Imagine I have an unit, and I put an IC with it. The unit moves 6" a turn. The IC moves 12" a turn. The unit+IC is now one unit, but they move 6" a turn not 12" You could reverse the IC and the units movement and have the same result.
lets look at the purifiers.
Do not have DS, but have rites of teleportation.
Drop Pod, does have DS, has DSA, and units can embark on it. It may deep strike even if the units embarked cannot.
You can make 1 roll to have both arrive. You claim you have permission to roll turn 1 for the pod using RoT despite no rule actually stating so, nor the rules for RoT stating they confer to a transport an unit with the special rule is embarked upon if the transport does not have it.
So yes the models in the NSF detachment have the RoT special rule, but that does not mean they can always use it. Example. A land raider bought from the NSF does not have DS, but still has the Rites of teleportation rule, even though it has no way to use it. Embarking an unit with DS does not allow you to rollow for the land raider to DS despite them being in combined reserves and the embarked unit being "allowed to DS turn 1 because RoT"
you are still limited by the models in the "combined" unit that do not have access to do things other models may be able to do, because there is no permission to ignore their restrictions, and there is no permission to make the roll based on the special rules of just one of the units in the 'combined unit'
Please see my previous posts for all of the relevent rules, restrictions, and interactions. Chosing not to read the posts mentioned is on you, not me.
By the way, asking me to re-post citations I've and others have already posted numerous times in this very thread does not alleviate you from the burden of providing your own citations to support your premiss. My case is solidly support by written rules; please support your case the same if you wish to be taken seriously.
SJ
its amazing how in denial of what has happened in this thread you are.
you have posted 0 rules showing that you have permission to let units benefit from a special rule they do not have, when rolling for a combined reserves roll.
you have posted 0 rules showing that you can ignore the restrictions of how models are allowed to arrive in combined reserves.
and yet you claim not only that you have, but there is obviously permission because one of the units has the rule.
This thread has gone from firstly claiming permission and things are RAW without a single quote, to people claiming its implied therefore its a rule, back to "they have the rule so the drop pod that doesn't have it can use it because its 1 roll" which doesn't have any actual validity or meaning as a rule.
despite I am replying to you, this is not just to you but to the few people in this thread who are very vocal that this is a valid rule.
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.
Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Formation can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.
Of course, Talos/Toof could have just looked those up them/himself.
I make a distinction between making a reserve roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve versus making a combined reserve unit roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment embarked upon a unit not in the NSF Detachment in Deep Strike Reserve. You do not. There are a variety of secondary arguments which vary in their merit, but that's the core of the issue for me and I suppose it's just too bad if you don't think it's reasonable.
greytalon666 wrote: You edited your statement to remove the quote I was talking about, and are now trying to play it cool.
Regardless, Jeffersonian, siege2142, and I have quoted rules allowing purifiers and pods to arrive on turn one. We've all shown the permission to roll for a specific part of a combined unit, we've shown that a combined unit arrives together. When a combined unit arrives together, you then deploy that combined unit.
Neither you nor talons have shown any solid evidence that rules as currently written do not work that way.
You have shown an assumption to roll for a specific part of a combined Unit (Due to unclear And/Or wording). I agree that you can read it that way.
But rolling for the Purifiers has a problem, this rule:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
What does the "them" underline above refer to? The Unit you rolled for, Purifiers. Can you place them as following those rules? no.
Your argument fails and you may not roll for the purifiers. Unless they are Deep Striking on their own.
siege2142 wrote: Also, when you make a combined reserves roll, there is nothing that states the element of the you it you roll for has tone placed first, it says they arrive together. Which means, when things have to happen simultaneously, the controlling player chooses the order.
So... You are saying the purifiers can Disembark before the Pod Deep is placed? Correct?
Let me just give you some Rules from the codex:
Transport Capacity: (...) Once the Drop Pod has landed, the hatches are blown and all passengers must immediately disembark.
I hope that the highlighted above can show you why your statement is incorrect.
I make a distinction between making a reserve roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve versus making a combined reserve unit roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment embarked upon a unit not in the NSF Detachment in Deep Strike Reserve. You do not. There are a variety of secondary arguments which vary in their merit, but that's the core of the issue for me and I suppose it's just too bad if you don't think it's reasonable.
Same as my post just above and nosferatu's question, which i am sure you can answer with complete rule support.
Roll for the Purifires only, try to place them by Deep Strike rules before the Drop Pod is placed.
Try to claim that they were embarked upon it, i'm sure your opponent will like the idea
Interceptors are part of the Grey Knights army, correct?
That means that Interceptors can use the Rights of Teleportation rule, correct?
However... Why are they called Interceptors? They don't have the Interceptor special rule... So why is this?
I'll answer this for you; it is because they do not.
Back to the topic in question:
If I have the Nemesis Strike Force formation and I allied in some Space Marines (through cheesy IoM ally shenanigans), and put scouts in a drop pod... Would they use the Rights of Teleportation rule?
The answer is no because they aren't part of the Grey Knight army. Do you know what this is like? Claiming that allied drop pods are part of the Gey Knight army.
To be honest, there wouldn't be these kinds of disputes if the allies matrix was back to 6th edition's one (where no one liked Grey Knights).
If I have the Nemesis Strike Force formation and I allied in some Space Marines (through cheesy IoM ally shenanigans), and put scouts in a drop pod... Would they use the Rights of Teleportation rule?
The answer is no because they aren't part of the Grey Knight army. Do you know what this is like? Claiming that allied drop pods are part of the Gey Knight army.
To be honest, there wouldn't be these kinds of disputes if the allies matrix was back to 6th edition's one (where no one liked Grey Knights).
I think their current 'argument' is that they are rolling for the Grey Knights Unit to arrive, not the Allied Pod.
But have failed to provide any rules support as to how this Unit is arriving on the table (I mean Raw clearly states that you deploy what you rolled for - quoted below)
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
If I have the Nemesis Strike Force formation and I allied in some Space Marines (through cheesy IoM ally shenanigans), and put scouts in a drop pod... Would they use the Rights of Teleportation rule?
The answer is no because they aren't part of the Grey Knight army. Do you know what this is like? Claiming that allied drop pods are part of the Gey Knight army.
To be honest, there wouldn't be these kinds of disputes if the allies matrix was back to 6th edition's one (where no one liked Grey Knights).
I think their current 'argument' is that they are rolling for the Grey Knights Unit to arrive, not the Allied Pod.
But have failed to provide any rules support as to how this Unit is arriving on the table (I mean Raw clearly states that you deploy what you rolled for - quoted below)
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
How would this work with a strike squad which actually has deep strike?
Xenomancers wrote: How would this work with a strike squad which actually has deep strike?
How would what work?
I'm agreeing with this:
Xenomancers wrote: Drop pod is a SW unit and not part of your formation. Your NSF has nothing to do with that pod.
And was trying to explain to some who have trouble understanding how Deep Strike and Drop Pods work:
A Unit with a transport rolls only once to arrive from reserves, a roll that must be attributed to whatever model is placed on the Table, as per:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
So you must be rolling for the arrival of the Pod (NSF has nothing to do with that pod) and then place the pod according to the rules found after the above.
greytalon666 wrote: Spelled out clearly in combined reserves. Combined reserves arrive together, and thge rule even gives us permission to roll for just the purifiers!
Gooid deal, we can finally put this to rest.
Pleas eshow how you are placing one model from the purifiers unit, and tTHEN disembarking them from the drop pod.
Page and graph
Hint: Only one way round means you can satisfy the DS rules *and* the DPA rules.
Xenomancers wrote: How would this work with a strike squad which actually has deep strike?
How would what work?
I'm agreeing with this:
Xenomancers wrote: Drop pod is a SW unit and not part of your formation. Your NSF has nothing to do with that pod.
And was trying to explain to some who have trouble understanding how Deep Strike and Drop Pods work:
A Unit with a transport rolls only once to arrive from reserves, a roll that must be attributed to whatever model is placed on the Table, as per:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
So you must be rolling for the arrival of the Pod (NSF has nothing to do with that pod) and then place the pod according to the rules found after the above.
So since your reserve roll goes for the unit that is placed on the table (the pod) this trumps all other special deep strike rules that effect the units placed inside the pod? Am I following you correctly?
What are you agreeing with in regards to a strike squad in a drop pod? I'm confused about you saying you agree and then you say that the reserves roll must be made for the pod not the unit inside. Please clarify.
Could this argument also be used to settle the debate about LoTD in a drop pod - they will not get to reroll the scatter (if they are actually allowed to be placed in a pod in the first place?)
What theyre stating is that you *cannot* claim to be rolling solely for the Purifiers, as you *cannot* comply with the requisite rules if you do so - you *cannot* BOTH place a model from the unit that is arriving (the purifier unit) AND have them disembark from the Drop Pod *after* te drop pod lands.
What settles LatD in a pod is that a unit inside a pod isnt themselves ddeepstirking; they are coming from DS reserves, but not DS, meaning you would break their rule.
Similarly here there is only one way to comply with all the rules in play. You roll for th pod.
siege2142 wrote: That's not how it reads raw. Raw, it says roll for the unit AND/OR transport AND/OR ic's.
And just because dpa reminds you about the reserve rules doesn't mean you are required to use that specific rule over any other.
It says, "The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally."
And what is normal for units with RoT?
If you accept that the roll is for the Drop Pod (as Drop Pod Assault requires) then that's irrelevant; you cannot make a Rites of Teleportation roll for the Drop Pod because it's not a unit in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment.
greytalon666 wrote: You edited your statement to remove the quote I was talking about, and are now trying to play it cool.
Regardless, Jeffersonian, siege2142, and I have quoted rules allowing purifiers and pods to arrive on turn one. We've all shown the permission to roll for a specific part of a combined unit, we've shown that a combined unit arrives together. When a combined unit arrives together, you then deploy that combined unit.
Neither you nor talons have shown any solid evidence that rules as currently written do not work that way.
You have shown an assumption to roll for a specific part of a combined Unit (Due to unclear And/Or wording). I agree that you can read it that way.
But rolling for the Purifiers has a problem, this rule:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
What does the "them" underline above refer to? The Unit you rolled for, Purifiers. Can you place them as following those rules? no.
False. It refers to the combined unit, because that's what you rolled for.
So yes, you can place them with the following rules.
So in this "combined roll"...do you just get to chose which rules you follow? because each unit has different rules...purifiers don't even have deep strike dude and drop pods arrive with special rules on turn 1 and then roll normally after the first turn - what would purifiers even roll for in this situation?
What you are doing is picking and choosing which rules to follow and not follow with permissions you aren't given.
Xenomancers wrote: So in this "combined roll"...do you just get to chose which rules you follow? because each unit has different rules...purifiers don't even have deep strike dude and drop pods arrive with special rules on turn 1 and then roll normally after the first turn - what would purifiers even roll for in this situation?
The combined unit rolls. Since the Purifiers are part of the combined unit, the combined unit is allowed to roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: What you are doing is picking and choosing which rules to follow and not follow with permissions you aren't given.
That's incorrect. I'm following all the rules as presented.
I make a distinction between making a reserve roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve versus making a combined reserve unit roll for a unit in the NSF Detachment embarked upon a unit not in the NSF Detachment in Deep Strike Reserve. You do not. There are a variety of secondary arguments which vary in their merit, but that's the core of the issue for me and I suppose it's just too bad if you don't think it's reasonable.
Sorry, I was hijacking your post, not your opinion. My apologies for the confusion.
nosferatu1001 wrote: So when you make the roll for the purifiers, you place a model from the purifier unit first I assume?
No, you are attempting a false equivalency to disprove a point. When making the roll, the roll is for the entire Combind Unit (RAW), which must arrive together (RAW), with the passengers embarked (RAW), and following the placement process for the Vehicle (RAW). It is false logic to imply the passengers arriving first if the player legally exercises their option to roll to arrive for one of the units in the Combined Unit over any other, as granted per the "And/Or" verbiage (RAW). Additionally, the criteria required to gain the benefits of Rites of Teleportation are met due the rules for Allying, Battle Brothers, Deep Strike (aka, Deep Strike Reserves), Transports, Combined Units, Command Benefits, and Drop Pod Assault.
If Allied Battle Brothers did not allow for a non-Faction unit to embark on a non-dedicated Drop Pod, this situation would not exist. Before the new SW codex introduced non-dedicated Drop Pods, this situation did not exist. If Rites of Teleportation had more restrictive language, this situation would not exist. If Drop Pod Assault required a Turn 2 or later arrival of the half that did not arrive Turn 1, again this situation would not exist. However, GW wrote these rules, and has even indirectly shown approval by not only not making changes via Errata or FAQ, but by using more restrictive language in the recent BA codex that does not allow many of their special rules to benefit non-BA models in Combined Units.
What most people here are arguing against is RAI as they see it versus RAW. RAW allows the tactic, even if that is not how they would play it and is not what they feel was intended. How it was intended is an unknown, and how they would play it is a house rule. Read as written, the rules noted above allows a player to legally attempt to deploy all of their Drop Pods on Turn 1, with half (rounded up) arriving per Drop Pod Assault, and the remained rolling to arrive if carrying embarked Nemesis Strike Force units (the units in question being Purifies is immaterial other than that Purifiers are one of the few worthwhile GK units that do not have the Deep Strike USR).
Claims that the "Pro" side are wrong have not been supported by rules, because the rules as written support the actual tactic. Nit-picking over the meanings of terms like "And/Or" and "Teleportation" have no weight beyond the contex the terms are used. In the case of "And/Or", we are literally given a choice between units or the choice of all of the units. In the case of "Teleportation", it is a title, not a defined game term. The point raised on non-Faction units not benefiting from Command Benefits is a poor argument due to different Command Benefits having different language; if all Comnand Benefits are treated the same, a CAD Troop would lose Objective Secured as soon as an IC joins the unit, which we know is not true. Similarly, while Rites of Teleportation requires a NSF unit to be in Deep Strike Reserves to gain its benefits, no language exists that denies said benefits to a legally attached IC. And per the Combined Unit rules, Transports arrive with their passengers, because GW felt it was important enough to spell it out rather than leave the notion implied.
In order to debunk this tactic, actual rules need to be cited that deny the permissions granted by Allies, Battle Brothers, Combined Units, Transports, and Deep Strike (aka, Deep Strike Reserves). Good luck with that.
Happyjew wrote: So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?
No, just the Purifiers. The Drop Pod is dragged along because of the Combined Unit rule.
How can you roll for the purifiers if they don't have deep strike?
Spoiler:
In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
Please stop ignoring the rules that have been posted.
Happyjew wrote: So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?
No, just the Purifiers. The Drop Pod is dragged along because of the Combined Unit rule.
How can you roll for the purifiers if they don't have deep strike?
ROT permits us to roll for a unit in Deep Strike Reserve. A unit embarked in a pod is always in Deep Strike Reserve.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That is to say, the unit does not have to have deep strike - the only restriction on RoT is that the unit be in Deep Strike reserve.
Happyjew wrote: So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?
Per the Combined Unit rules, I'm rolling for the Combined unit. That could be Purifiers, a SM Libby, and a Drop Pod.
It could be Interceptors and a SM Terminator Captain.
There isn't a difference here.
the difference is both those units have deep strike and nether is embarked on a transport. Deep strike does not confer to units that don't have it. I could use your logic to deep strike a landraider by putting a termy armor libby inside. As idiotic as that sounds...starting to like the sound of this.
Happyjew wrote: So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?
Per the Combined Unit rules, I'm rolling for the Combined unit. That could be Purifiers, a SM Libby, and a Drop Pod.
It could be Interceptors and a SM Terminator Captain.
There isn't a difference here.
the difference is both those units have deep strike and nether is embarked on a transport. Deep strike does not confer to units that don't have it. I could use your logic to deep strike a landraider by putting a termy armor libby inside. As idiotic as that sounds...starting to like the sound of this.
No, you couldn't. Since that's not how the Deep Strike rules work.
Deep Strike doesn't confer - sure. I'm not interested in arguing that.
It's an irrelevant statement, however, as you're required to roll for the Combined Unit.
I dare you to "use [my] logic to deep strike a land raider". Please, explain how that's possible using actual rules quotes.
Since you roll for the combined unit, wouldn't that mean that the drop pod loses the deep strike option since you are rolling reserves for a non deep strike-able unit? So wouldn't the drop pod just arrive on your own table edge and then be stuck there?
Happyjew wrote: So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?
Per the Combined Unit rules, I'm rolling for the Combined unit. That could be Purifiers, a SM Libby, and a Drop Pod.
It could be Interceptors and a SM Terminator Captain.
There isn't a difference here.
the difference is both those units have deep strike and nether is embarked on a transport. Deep strike does not confer to units that don't have it. I could use your logic to deep strike a landraider by putting a termy armor libby inside. As idiotic as that sounds...starting to like the sound of this.
No, you couldn't. Since that's not how the Deep Strike rules work.
Deep Strike doesn't confer - sure. I'm not interested in arguing that.
It's an irrelevant statement, however, as you're required to roll for the Combined Unit.
I dare you to "use [my] logic to deep strike a land raider". Please, explain how that's possible using actual rules quotes.
It's easy...I'll just call it a combined unit. Which is exactly what you guys are doing...explain how it's different?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SGTPozy wrote: Since you roll for the combined unit, wouldn't that mean that the drop pod loses the deep strike option since you are rolling reserves for a non deep strike-able unit? So wouldn't the drop pod just arrive on your own table edge and then be stuck there?
That's what it looks like to me.
Except a drop pod can't even move so it couldn't even enter.
See my issue is from the Deep Strike special rule. "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units". Since the Purifiers are not Deep Striking (despite being in Deep Strike Reserves), you cannot roll for them, you are rolling for the Pod, and the Purifiers tag along.
Happyjew wrote: So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?
Per the Combined Unit rules, I'm rolling for the Combined unit. That could be Purifiers, a SM Libby, and a Drop Pod.
It could be Interceptors and a SM Terminator Captain.
There isn't a difference here.
the difference is both those units have deep strike and nether is embarked on a transport. Deep strike does not confer to units that don't have it. I could use your logic to deep strike a landraider by putting a termy armor libby inside. As idiotic as that sounds...starting to like the sound of this.
No, you couldn't. Since that's not how the Deep Strike rules work.
Deep Strike doesn't confer - sure. I'm not interested in arguing that.
It's an irrelevant statement, however, as you're required to roll for the Combined Unit.
I dare you to "use [my] logic to deep strike a land raider". Please, explain how that's possible using actual rules quotes.
It's easy...I'll just call it a combined unit. Which is exactly what you guys are doing...explain how it's different?
Spoiler:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.
So the Land Raider doesn't have Deep Strike and cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserve.
The Drop Pod does have Deep Strike, and since the Purifiers are embarked, they can be placed in Deep Strike Reserves.
Unless you have a rule saying that only part of the combined unit is in Deep Strike Reserve?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Happyjew wrote: See my issue is from the Deep Strike special rule. "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units". Since the Purifiers are not Deep Striking (despite being in Deep Strike Reserves), you cannot roll for them, you are rolling for the Pod, and the Purifiers tag along.
Except there's a conflict between that and the Combined Units rule.
And please explain how they are leaving Deep Strike Reserves without Deep Striking?
So if I can add to this rigamaroo, here's the events that I'm seeing:
NSF takes purifiers, SW detachment takes Drop Pod
Purifiers are placed in Drop Pod, creating a combined unit.
Unit is then placed in Deep Strike Reserves with both components of the unit considered to be in DS reserves.
Thanks to the NSF you can roll for the Purifiers to arrive first turn and, because of combined units in reserves rule, a single die is rolled which can come from any component. The relevant line from the combined units rule as quoted earlier in this thread: when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/ Transport vehicle. The and/or part is what essentially states that you can make a roll for any component.
Unit arrives turn one (assuming successful roll) by Deep Strike, and Purifiers disembark and then have the option to run and shoot or shoot and run thanks to the NSF.
As for the arguments against, I feel like it all comes back to the combined units rule. This specifically allows you to make a single dice roll for any component of the unit and then the entire unit arrives at the same time. I simply don't see how this rule would not work in that fashion for several reasons:
While it's true that combined units don't roll for individual components separately, their rules for rolling are dictated by the options that they have within those components. So in this case you're making a roll for the embarked unit, the purifiers, who have the option to roll on turn one and then the whole unit arrives.
By virtue of the transport in DS rule, the purifiers are considered to be in DS reserves, which triggers the benefits of the NSF detachment allowing them to roll on turn one while also running and shooting the turn they arrive from reserves.
My biggest problem with the arguments against however, is that there always seems to come a certain point where there's a small leap between rules to try to draw a line connecting them. The biggest one I see is this idea that no unit from another detachment can ever draw a benefit from the NSF. I don't see a rule that forbids that unit from arriving first turn nor a rule that invalidates the Purifier's ability to roll for reserves on turn one, and yet I consistently see people making it sound like you're trying to give NSF benefits to the drop pod. The drop pod does not switch detachments, but it also does not preclude the purifiers from rolling for reserves on turn one. Thanks to the combined units roll they would arrive together. The drop pod never gains Rites of Teleportation, it just comes along for the ride.
So since your reserve roll goes for the unit that is placed on the table (the pod) this trumps all other special deep strike rules that effect the units placed inside the pod? Am I following you correctly?
What are you agreeing with in regards to a strike squad in a drop pod? I'm confused about you saying you agree and then you say that the reserves roll must be made for the pod not the unit inside. Please clarify.
Could this argument also be used to settle the debate about LoTD in a drop pod - they will not get to reroll the scatter (if they are actually allowed to be placed in a pod in the first place?)
Sorry if i confused you, but Nos described it clearly:
nosferatu1001 wrote: What theyre stating is that you *cannot* claim to be rolling solely for the Purifiers, as you *cannot* comply with the requisite rules if you do so - you *cannot* BOTH place a model from the unit that is arriving (the purifier unit) AND have them disembark from the Drop Pod *after* te drop pod lands.
What settles LatD in a pod is that a unit inside a pod isnt themselves deepstirking; they are coming from DS reserves, but not DS, meaning you would break their rule.
Similarly here there is only one way to comply with all the rules in play. You roll for the pod.
Mainly agreeing with this, here:
jeffersonian000 wrote: If Allied Battle Brothers did not allow for a non-Faction unit to embark on a non-dedicated Drop Pod, this situation would not exist. Before the new SW codex introduced non-dedicated Drop Pods, this situation did not exist. If Rites of Teleportation had more restrictive language, this situation would not exist. If Drop Pod Assault required a Turn 2 or later arrival of the half that did not arrive Turn 1, again this situation would not exist. However, GW wrote these rules, and has even indirectly shown approval by not only not making changes via Errata or FAQ, but by using more restrictive language in the recent BA codex that does not allow many of their special rules to benefit non-BA models in Combined Units.
SJ
However,
jeffersonian000 wrote: No, you are attempting a false equivalency to disprove a point. When making the roll, the roll is for the entire Combind Unit (RAW), which must arrive together (RAW), with the passengers embarked (RAW), and following the placement process for the Vehicle (RAW). It is false logic to imply the passengers arriving first if the player legally exercises their option to roll to arrive for one of the units in the Combined Unit over any other, as granted per the "And/Or" verbiage (RAW). Additionally, the criteria required to gain the benefits of Rites of Teleportation are met due the rules for Allying, Battle Brothers, Deep Strike (aka, Deep Strike Reserves), Transports, Combined Units, Command Benefits, and Drop Pod Assault.
SJ
I can understand the method here: you are rolling for the combined Unit (which contains a Unit from NSF) and that combined Unit is arriving per the 'standard' rules. However my participation here was simply to disprove the assertions that:
siege2142 wrote: You aren't rolling for the drop pod, you are rolling for the purifiers, because you are specifically allowed to just roll for them in a combined unit.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USRdoes confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.
Which were both incorrect statements.
Lastly, this statement would make it clear for me that the rules (or Formation benefits) of a Unit embarked upon a Transport should not be taken account for the roll of the combined Unit:
Xenomancers wrote: the difference is both those units have deep strike and nether is embarked on a transport. Deep strike does not confer to units that don't have it. I could use your logic to deep strike a landraider by putting a termy armor libby inside. As idiotic as that sounds...starting to like the sound of this.
Happyjew wrote: See my issue is from the Deep Strike special rule. "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units". Since the Purifiers are not Deep Striking (despite being in Deep Strike Reserves), you cannot roll for them, you are rolling for the Pod, and the Purifiers tag along.
The rule for Deep Strike specifically says that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are interchangeable. Therefore, if something is in Deep Strike Reserves, it's considered to be Deep Striking.
Happyjew wrote: See my issue is from the Deep Strike special rule. "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units". Since the Purifiers are not Deep Striking (despite being in Deep Strike Reserves), you cannot roll for them, you are rolling for the Pod, and the Purifiers tag along.
Problem with that one, Happyjew, is that technically they are Deep Striking, just not allowed to arrive "by Deep Strike" (As from our conclusions HERE).
So "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units" would cover the Pod and its occupants (who are arriving by disembarking)
rigeld2 wrote: Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.
I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.
But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.
confoo22 wrote: The drop pod does not switch detachments, but it also does not preclude the purifiers from rolling for reserves on turn one. Thanks to the combined units roll they would arrive together. The drop pod never gains Rites of Teleportation, it just comes along for the ride.
The problem is that the Drop Pod can't just come along for the ride.
It does not have permission to come in T1. The purifiers do, but they can't deepstrike without the pod. The pod can deepstrike but it's not allowed to come in T1 because it's not a part of the NSF formation. The paragraph under "reserves" that talks about combined units does not give express or implied permission to allow passenger's special rules for deployment to apply to their transport - especially if it is not a dedicated transport. Those permissions are all found under the specific special rules and the RoT special rule mentions no such permission. In fact, the RoT special rule specifically says that it applies to units in the NSF detachment.
rigeld2 wrote: Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.
I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.
But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.
I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?
rigeld2 wrote: Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.
I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.
But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.
I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?
Because of the combined units rule.
The Purifiers are unarguably in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore the NSF rule kicks in. Since the Combined Unit rule allows you to roll once for the entire combined unit (transports explicitly allowed), the transport benefits.
rigeld2 wrote: Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.
I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.
But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.
I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?
I think the term "Combined Reserve Unit" is misleading, they no way form a unit with their Transport.
But it's not the only gun emplacement..er...I mean misleading term used in the book.
confoo22 wrote: The drop pod does not switch detachments, but it also does not preclude the purifiers from rolling for reserves on turn one. Thanks to the combined units roll they would arrive together. The drop pod never gains Rites of Teleportation, it just comes along for the ride.
The problem is that the Drop Pod can't just come along for the ride.
It does not have permission to come in T1. The purifiers do, but they can't deepstrike without the pod. The pod can deepstrike but it's not allowed to come in T1 because it's not a part of the NSF formation. The paragraph under "reserves" that talks about combined units does not give express or implied permission to allow passenger's special rules for deployment to apply to their transport - especially if it is not a dedicated transport. Those permissions are all found under the specific special rules and the RoT special rule mentions no such permission. In fact, the RoT special rule specifically says that it applies to units in the NSF detachment.
It doesn't need to give expressed permission, that part is already handled by the combined units reserve roll. In this case it would need to deny the rule, which it doesn't. And I'm not denying that RoT applies only to units from the NSF detachment, in fact, I'm counting on it. What you're trying to say, and again, this is the leap I'm talking about, is that since the Drop Pod is not from the NSF there's no way it could arrive turn one except by DP assault rule. Except there's no rule denying that.
Again, here's the series of events:
Purifiers and DP are both placed in DS reserves with the purifiers in DP as the transport. Purifiers roll on turn one for RoT since they are in DS reserves. As per the reserves rule both purifiers and DP arrive at the same time since they are a combined unit and the DP is their transport.
Let me also be clear on this since the rules are clear: When a unit is placed in a transport that is deep striking and then placed in reserves, both units are considered to be in Deep Strike Reserves. it doesn't matter that Purifiers don't have the Deep Strike special rule.
rigeld2 wrote: Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.
I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.
But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.
I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?
Because of the combined units rule.
The Purifiers are unarguably in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore the NSF rule kicks in. Since the Combined Unit rule allows you to roll once for the entire combined unit (transports explicitly allowed), the transport benefits.
I think I get this. And it only applies for pods?
If you were Deep Striking a Valkyrie, which does not place its passengers in Deep Strike Reserves, then the combined Unit could not make use of the NSF rule since the Purifiers are not in Deep Strike Reserves?
NightHowler wrote: Right. But it does matter that the vehicle by which they arrive from reserves is not a part of the NSF detachment.
How exactly? I've demonstrated how they would arrive by turn one anyways thanks to the purifiers being in DS reserves and the combined units reserve rule. The drop pod not being in the detachment doesn't mean anything, it's still the transport for the purifiers so it arrives at the same time. You have yet to disprove this other than saying that it's not part of the NSF even though I've demonstrated why that's not necessary in this case.
rigeld2 wrote: Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.
I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.
But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.
I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?
Because of the combined units rule.
The Purifiers are unarguably in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore the NSF rule kicks in. Since the Combined Unit rule allows you to roll once for the entire combined unit (transports explicitly allowed), the transport benefits.
I think I get this. And it only applies for pods?
If you were Deep Striking a Valkyrie, which does not place its passengers in Deep Strike Reserves, then the combined Unit could not make use of the NSF rule since the Purifiers are not in Deep Strike Reserves?
Since you can't Deep Strike a Valkyrie, the point is moot.
I can't think of any other transports that can Deep Strike anymore... not that I'm 100% familiar with the rules on anyway.
This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.
"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"
So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.
rigeld2 wrote: Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.
I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.
But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.
I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?
Because of the combined units rule. The Purifiers are unarguably in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore the NSF rule kicks in. Since the Combined Unit rule allows you to roll once for the entire combined unit (transports explicitly allowed), the transport benefits.
I think I get this. And it only applies for pods? If you were Deep Striking a Valkyrie, which does not place its passengers in Deep Strike Reserves, then the combined Unit could not make use of the NSF rule since the Purifiers are not in Deep Strike Reserves?
Since you can't Deep Strike a Valkyrie, the point is moot. I can't think of any other transports that can Deep Strike anymore... not that I'm 100% familiar with the rules on anyway.
Well that's why i used the Valkyrie, as it is the only Transport left with Deep Strike (Forgeworld Books) i can think of, or Dreadclaw (But that's a Pod with weird rules)
NightHowler wrote: This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.
"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"
So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.
A. I don't see how a rule allowing something is somehow suspect because another rule doesn't prevent it from happening. If you think the rule is prevented then you should be able to provide rules citations that prove your point, not point to the lack of them as proof.
B. You don't know the RAI, and you certainly don't know that the word "Teleportation" is meant to be some sort of secret clue that proves your point. That would be like me using my Interceptors to shoot units arriving from reserves and then claiming RAI.
C. If you can't prove your point then drop it and move on instead of making insinuations that someone who disagrees with you is some sort of unwanted element who's ruining the game. Don't be hyperbolic, nobody is quitting over this, it's just a rules discussion on a forum. I'm sorry we disagree, but there's no need to be insulting about it.
NightHowler wrote: This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.
"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"
So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.
When this comes down to RaW or RaI, i do not think (RaI) that GW ever intended for any of the "Faction only" Rules and bonuses to be able to apply to "other" Units(by this I mean IC too).
NightHowler wrote: This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.
"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"
So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.
Pretty sure fortifications don't allow vehicles to embark into them, just infantry. Stormravens and Thunderhawks do, because they have special rules stating so. This would be another case of a false equivalency.
As to newer players, pretty sure they would have less issues with over-thinking the rules than veteran players do, as they have less edition to edition baggage to haul around. As a long time 40k player, from age 14 to age 42, I too remember when the rules did not allow such combos to occur. However, I am fully aware that this is edition 7, not edition 3.7. To quote the Ice Queen herself, "Let it go!"
NightHowler wrote: This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.
"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"
So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.
A. I don't see how a rule allowing something is somehow suspect because another rule doesn't prevent it from happening. If you think the rule is prevented then you should be able to provide rules citations that prove your point, not point to the lack of them as proof.
B. You don't know the RAI, and you certainly don't know that the word "Teleportation" is meant to be some sort of secret clue that proves your point. That would be like me using my Interceptors to shoot units arriving from reserves and then claiming RAI.
C. If you can't prove your point then drop it and move on instead of making insinuations that someone who disagrees with you is some sort of unwanted element who's ruining the game. Don't be hyperbolic, nobody is quitting over this, it's just a rules discussion on a forum. I'm sorry we disagree, but there's no need to be insulting about it.
The RAI is def not that the purifiers gain deep strike reserve status from a unit outside of it's detachment and confer it's own detachment rules to a unit outside of it's detachment.
NightHowler wrote: This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.
"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"
So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.
A. I don't see how a rule allowing something is somehow suspect because another rule doesn't prevent it from happening. If you think the rule is prevented then you should be able to provide rules citations that prove your point, not point to the lack of them as proof.
B. You don't know the RAI, and you certainly don't know that the word "Teleportation" is meant to be some sort of secret clue that proves your point. That would be like me using my Interceptors to shoot units arriving from reserves and then claiming RAI.
C. If you can't prove your point then drop it and move on instead of making insinuations that someone who disagrees with you is some sort of unwanted element who's ruining the game. Don't be hyperbolic, nobody is quitting over this, it's just a rules discussion on a forum. I'm sorry we disagree, but there's no need to be insulting about it.
The RAI is def not that the purifiers gain deep strike reserve status from a unit outside of it's detachment and confer it's own detachment rules to a unit outside of it's detachment.
Cite your evidence. Because it's obviously intended that the Purifiers are put into Deep Strike Reserve if they're embarked in a Deep Striking transport.
And you'll need to show something more than your assumption for the idea that it's not intended for the latter.
It's just a general plea that the players also consider the health of the community when fighting tooth and nail for one minor advantage of such questionable validity.
I've seen RAW arguments that you can deepstrike a fortification, so this thread is clearly not the worst ever, it's just when I go to a tournament and some guy across the table looks me square in the eye and says that he can do something... if he has to go through 6 pages worth of rules lawyering to explain how he does it, he probably shouldn't be doing it.
It's just a general plea that the players also consider the health of the community when fighting tooth and nail for one minor advantage of such questionable validity.
I've seen RAW arguments that you can deepstrike a fortification, so this thread is clearly not the worst ever, it's just when I go to a tournament and some guy across the table looks me square in the eye and says that he can do something... if he has to go through 6 pages worth of rules lawyering to explain how he does it, he probably shouldn't be doing it.
I'm curious - how many pages does it take to resolve a shooting attack?
Happyjew wrote: See my issue is from the Deep Strike special rule. "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units". Since the Purifiers are not Deep Striking (despite being in Deep Strike Reserves), you cannot roll for them, you are rolling for the Pod, and the Purifiers tag along.
The rule for Deep Strike specifically says that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are interchangeable. Therefore, if something is in Deep Strike Reserves, it's considered to be Deep Striking.
So do you place a model from the Purifiers and roll scatter, or do you disembark from a vehicle? One is Deep Striking, the other is not.
It's just a general plea that the players also consider the health of the community when fighting tooth and nail for one minor advantage of such questionable validity.
I've seen RAW arguments that you can deepstrike a fortification, so this thread is clearly not the worst ever, it's just when I go to a tournament and some guy across the table looks me square in the eye and says that he can do something... if he has to go through 6 pages worth of rules lawyering to explain how he does it, he probably shouldn't be doing it.
I pointed to three rules to make my argument (combined units reserves, units arriving from reserves in transports, and Deep Strike), not 6 pages worth of rules lawyering. And if I think I'm right I'm going to argue my point, not fold the moment someone disagrees with me or else I might as well not bring it up at all.
Happyjew wrote: See my issue is from the Deep Strike special rule. "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units". Since the Purifiers are not Deep Striking (despite being in Deep Strike Reserves), you cannot roll for them, you are rolling for the Pod, and the Purifiers tag along.
The rule for Deep Strike specifically says that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are interchangeable. Therefore, if something is in Deep Strike Reserves, it's considered to be Deep Striking.
So do you place a model from the Purifiers and roll scatter, or do you disembark from a vehicle? One is Deep Striking, the other is not.
The act of rolling to scatter is not the defining crux of Deep Strike. When a unit arrives from Deep Strike Reserves it's deep striking, as per the rules. Units inside of transports that are deep striking are considered to be in Deep Strike Reserves along with the transport, as per the rules. Therefore, the NSF special rules trigger for the purifiers because they are in DS Reserves, and then again when they arrive from DS Reserves, as per the rules.
That's awfully accusatory. I was arguing in favor of RoT working in this case, and I don't even own a Space Marine army, let alone grey knights. I just think the argument in favor is sound, and if my opponent wants to DS his purifiers in a pod with RoT, then who am I to ruin his fun if his logic is sound?
Everyone stop talking and pay attention to me now!
That's better, to the people claiming that they can use RoT on an allied drop pod because "the rules don't say that I can't," what do you think about the following?:
A Tactical Marine can replace his bolter with a cyclone missile launcher because the rules don't say that he can't. Sure, they say what he *can* take as an upgrade, but it doesn't say that he *can not* take the cyclone missile launcher.
A Rhino can take heavy bolter sponsons because the rules don't say that it cannot.
Do you see how idiotic that reasoning is? Anyway, I doubt the rule was written with ally abuse in mind when the codex was being written.
SGTPozy wrote: Everyone stop talking and pay attention to me now!
That's better, to the people claiming that they can use RoT on an allied drop pod because "the rules don't say that I can't," what do you think about the following?:
A Tactical Marine can replace his bolter with a cyclone missile launcher because the rules don't say that he can't. Sure, they say what he *can* take as an upgrade, but it doesn't say that he *can not* take the cyclone missile launcher.
A Rhino can take heavy bolter sponsons because the rules don't say that it cannot.
Do you see how idiotic that reasoning is? Anyway, I doubt the rule was written with ally abuse in mind when the codex was being written.
False argument. We are saying that RoT can be used with an Allied Drop a Pod because the rules say we can, not because there are no rules saying we can't. This thread has been quite clear on what the rules support, and what the rules don't. Your attempt to add to the debate with fallacious example adds nothing other than to show you have not bothered to read what people are posting.
SGTPozy wrote: Everyone stop talking and pay attention to me now!
That's better, to the people claiming that they can use RoT on an allied drop pod because "the rules don't say that I can't," what do you think about the following?:
A Tactical Marine can replace his bolter with a cyclone missile launcher because the rules don't say that he can't. Sure, they say what he *can* take as an upgrade, but it doesn't say that he *can not* take the cyclone missile launcher.
A Rhino can take heavy bolter sponsons because the rules don't say that it cannot.
Do you see how idiotic that reasoning is? Anyway, I doubt the rule was written with ally abuse in mind when the codex was being written.
Faulty logic made to create a false equivalency, or what is commonly referred to in the writing world as "a plea to ignorance." Nobody is making the argument that you can do it because the rules don't say that you can't and no one should ever expect to win an argument based off of that. In fact, numerous rules have been cited to explain why you can do it (the most relevant is the Combined Reserve Units pg 135). The only reason the "rules don't say I can't" argument was even brought up was because people were trying to make it sound like every step in the process needed to be spelled out and specifically allowed in order for this to be valid, when the generic rule covering the situation should have been enough. Since a reading of the rules can can tell you that this is a permitted action (read back through this post for the rules citations), then the onus should be on the naysayers to disprove this by citing a rule that disallows this series of events. What people are actually saying in this thread isn't "the rules don't say I can't," it's "this rule says I can, so show me the rule that overturns it."
And as for your doubt, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but it is just an opinion after all, and quite frankly you don't know what the intention was. SW codex came out right before the GK one, so for all you know this is exactly what the writers had in mind when they created the rule. I'm pretty sure that GW is ok with "ally abuse" if it encourages GK players to buy some drop pods.
SGTPozy wrote: Everyone stop talking and pay attention to me now!
That's better, to the people claiming that they can use RoT on an allied drop pod because "the rules don't say that I can't," what do you think about the following?:
A Tactical Marine can replace his bolter with a cyclone missile launcher because the rules don't say that he can't. Sure, they say what he *can* take as an upgrade, but it doesn't say that he *can not* take the cyclone missile launcher.
A Rhino can take heavy bolter sponsons because the rules don't say that it cannot.
Do you see how idiotic that reasoning is? Anyway, I doubt the rule was written with ally abuse in mind when the codex was being written.
The rules actually say that you CANNOT take a cyclone missle launcher. The rules says WHERE you can purchase your upgrades from, and those upgrades are listed with everything you can purchase. If it isn't listed there, then they rules say that you cannot purchase it.
The rules are explicit on where you can take upgrades from, so they are implying where you cannot. Now, please, get back on topic and stop throwing out scarecrows.
They very much so imply that you can't. You are very off topic and trying to grasp at straws for a non-raw, ra(possibly)I argument.
If you have any actual, factual, rules to deny any of the permissions that have been quoted, please post them. Otherwise, accept that you are wrong by raw, and move on.
Sigh. No, you stated the rules state you cannot. Clearly they do not state that, because the rules never use those words. You're great at changing approach hoping no one notices, from states to implies.
Your next sentence is just bizarre - I think you have me and pozy mixed up. Here's a tip - we have different names.
greytalon666 wrote: The rules are explicit on where you can take upgrades from, so they are implying where you cannot. Now, please, get back on topic and stop throwing out scarecrows.
You used the word "implying", and I'd say that the RoT rule implies that the tactic will not work as the rule is Teleportation and drop pods do not teleport.
SGTPozy wrote: Everyone stop talking and pay attention to me now!
That's better, to the people claiming that they can use RoT on an allied drop pod because "the rules don't say that I can't," what do you think about the following?:
A Tactical Marine can replace his bolter with a cyclone missile launcher because the rules don't say that he can't. Sure, they say what he *can* take as an upgrade, but it doesn't say that he *can not* take the cyclone missile launcher.
A Rhino can take heavy bolter sponsons because the rules don't say that it cannot.
Do you see how idiotic that reasoning is? Anyway, I doubt the rule was written with ally abuse in mind when the codex was being written.
False argument. We are saying that RoT can be used with an Allied Drop a Pod because the rules say we can, not because there are no rules saying we can't. This thread has been quite clear on what the rules support, and what the rules don't. Your attempt to add to the debate with fallacious example adds nothing other than to show you have not bothered to read what people are posting.
SJ
I don't think that the rules have been clear a how can Purifiers be held in deep strike reserves if they don't have deep strike? Sure, you can 'combine' them with a drop pod but the Purifiers didn't originally have deep strike so why should it be valid?
greytalon666 wrote: The rules are explicit on where you can take upgrades from, so they are implying where you cannot. Now, please, get back on topic and stop throwing out scarecrows.
You used the word "implying", and I'd say that the RoT rule implies that the tactic will not work as the rule is Teleportation and drop pods do not teleport.
SGTPozy wrote: Everyone stop talking and pay attention to me now!
That's better, to the people claiming that they can use RoT on an allied drop pod because "the rules don't say that I can't," what do you think about the following?:
A Tactical Marine can replace his bolter with a cyclone missile launcher because the rules don't say that he can't. Sure, they say what he *can* take as an upgrade, but it doesn't say that he *can not* take the cyclone missile launcher.
A Rhino can take heavy bolter sponsons because the rules don't say that it cannot.
Do you see how idiotic that reasoning is? Anyway, I doubt the rule was written with ally abuse in mind when the codex was being written.
False argument. We are saying that RoT can be used with an Allied Drop a Pod because the rules say we can, not because there are no rules saying we can't. This thread has been quite clear on what the rules support, and what the rules don't. Your attempt to add to the debate with fallacious example adds nothing other than to show you have not bothered to read what people are posting.
SJ
I don't think that the rules have been clear a how can Purifiers be held in deep strike reserves if they don't have deep strike? Sure, you can 'combine' them with a drop pod but the Purifiers didn't originally have deep strike so why should it be valid?
Naming it rites of teleportation and then saying it excludes drop pods because they don't teleport isn't implying anything rules wise, because the name of a rule isn't a rule., you are trying to make a rai argument.
Secondly, when a unit is inside of a drop pod, BOTH units are held in deep strike reserve. This has been gone overnAT LEAST once per page of THIS specific argument. Feel free to read it anywhere I or anyone else has previously quoted.
greytalon666 wrote: The rules are explicit on where you can take upgrades from, so they are implying where you cannot. Now, please, get back on topic and stop throwing out scarecrows.
You used the word "implying", and I'd say that the RoT rule implies that the tactic will not work as the rule is Teleportation and drop pods do not teleport.
SGTPozy wrote: Everyone stop talking and pay attention to me now!
That's better, to the people claiming that they can use RoT on an allied drop pod because "the rules don't say that I can't," what do you think about the following?:
A Tactical Marine can replace his bolter with a cyclone missile launcher because the rules don't say that he can't. Sure, they say what he *can* take as an upgrade, but it doesn't say that he *can not* take the cyclone missile launcher.
A Rhino can take heavy bolter sponsons because the rules don't say that it cannot.
Do you see how idiotic that reasoning is? Anyway, I doubt the rule was written with ally abuse in mind when the codex was being written.
False argument. We are saying that RoT can be used with an Allied Drop a Pod because the rules say we can, not because there are no rules saying we can't. This thread has been quite clear on what the rules support, and what the rules don't. Your attempt to add to the debate with fallacious example adds nothing other than to show you have not bothered to read what people are posting.
SJ
I don't think that the rules have been clear a how can Purifiers be held in deep strike reserves if they don't have deep strike? Sure, you can 'combine' them with a drop pod but the Purifiers didn't originally have deep strike so why should it be valid?
I can answer that one with some RaW from the Codex:
"Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves."
The Purifiers are indeed held in Deep Strike Reserves. The question is, does the RoT transfer through "combined reserves roll"? (Not completely convinced yet, good arguments on both sides)
Rites effectively "transfers" to the Drop Pod due to the language of the Combined Unit rules directing all the units in the Combined unit to arrive together on a single die roll, while also giving the player the option of which of the units in the Combined unit to roll for. The Drop Pod never actually gains the Rite of Teleportation benefit, however, the Drop Pod does arrive with the NSF Purifiers that do have the RoT benefit.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Rites effectively "transfers" to the Drop Pod due to the language of the Combined Unit rules directing all the units in the Combined unit to arrive together on a single die roll, while also giving the player the option of which of the units in the Combined unit to roll for. The Drop Pod never actually gains the Rite of Teleportation benefit, however, the Drop Pod does arrive with the NSF Purifiers that do have the RoT benefit.
SJ
This is clearly abuse of the rules but I can't argue with the "combined unit roll" though clearly this rules intent was to allow you to roll a single dice for an IC and his unit when rolling from reserves. IF GW cared about it's game it would be immediately FAQed. I don't see a TO allowing this ether - if he has any grasp of the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd also be interested to know the order of things in your interpretation. Half your pods arrive on turn 1 rounded up and the rest arrive as normal. Do you roll for rites first? How can you when half your pods automatically arrive on first turn? Lets say you can do that or have to do that....do the pods that are arriving from rites count towards your drop pod total for drop pod assault?
jeffersonian000 wrote: Rites effectively "transfers" to the Drop Pod due to the language of the Combined Unit rules directing all the units in the Combined unit to arrive together on a single die roll, while also giving the player the option of which of the units in the Combined unit to roll for. The Drop Pod never actually gains the Rite of Teleportation benefit, however, the Drop Pod does arrive with the NSF Purifiers that do have the RoT benefit.
SJ
I agree with the conclusion, as Rigeld demonstrated earlier, but will yet again point out that the underline above is incorrect, and recommend you read the entirety of pages 5 and 6 again, or at least this post:
nosferatu1001 wrote: What theyre stating is that you *cannot* claim to be rolling solely for the Purifiers, as you *cannot* comply with the requisite rules if you do so - you *cannot* BOTH place a model from the unit that is arriving (the purifier unit) AND have them disembark from the Drop Pod *after* the drop pod lands.
The Combined Unit rule allows you to roll once for the entire combined unit, not specific parts of it...
Xenomancers wrote: This is clearly abuse of the rules but I can't argue with the "combined unit roll" though clearly this rules intent was to allow you to roll a single dice for an IC and his unit when rolling from reserves. IF GW cared about it's game it would be immediately FAQed. I don't see a TO allowing this ether - if he has any grasp of the game.
I am also still in doubt as to whether the "combined unit roll" covers RoT transferring, but other situations (such as ICs) can allow it, so i would not see why not.
Xenomancers wrote:This is clearly abuse of the rules but I can't argue with the "combined unit roll" though clearly this rules intent was to allow you to roll a single dice for an IC and his unit when rolling from reserves. IF GW cared about it's game it would be immediately FAQed. I don't see a TO allowing this ether - if he has any grasp of the game.
The idea of this being "abuse" is solely your opinion. This is hardly a game breaking combo, and with the moving of Dedicated Transports to Fast Attack, this could be exactly what the rules writers intended. You simply don't know enough of the rules writing process or thoughts to make that call
Xenomancers wrote:I'd also be interested to know the order of things in your interpretation. Half your pods arrive on turn 1 rounded up and the rest arrive as normal. Do you roll for rites first? How can you when half your pods automatically arrive on first turn? Lets say you can do that or have to do that....do the pods that are arriving from rites count towards your drop pod total for drop pod assault?
The drop pods that qualify for the drop pod assault rule arrive automatically while all the rest roll for reserves. That is stated in the rules, so it doesn't matter what order you place them on the table, all that's affected is whether or not you roll for them to arrive.
BlackTalos wrote:I agree with the conclusion, as Rigeld demonstrated earlier, but will yet again point out that the underline above is incorrect, and recommend you read the entirety of pages 5 and 6 again, or at least this post:
nosferatu1001 wrote: What theyre stating is that you *cannot* claim to be rolling solely for the Purifiers, as you *cannot* comply with the requisite rules if you do so - you *cannot* BOTH place a model from the unit that is arriving (the purifier unit) AND have them disembark from the Drop Pod *after* the drop pod lands.
The Combined Unit rule allows you to roll once for the entire combined unit, not specific parts of it...
I've made this argument elsewhere but I will refer to you the Combined Reserve Units rule on page 135. I don't want to reprint the entire rule since I'm unclear on whether or not that's allowed, but I will tell you that it states that during deployment you must decide if any ICs join a unit and if they're in a transport and then it states that they must all arrive together. However, the relevant part is the last sentence, which says this: "when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle."
Thanks to the and/or and the slashes there, you can read the sentence this way: When making a reserve roll for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit or its Independent Character or its Transport. Though it is a combined unit, this rule allows you to pick which component you are rolling for when making a reserve roll, in this case the purifiers, who get to roll on turn one thanks to the modifier in NSF and the fact that they are in Deep Strike Reserves. And since everything must arrive together, it all does so via the Drop Pod because that's their transport. And again I will say, Rites of Teleportation is never granted to the Drop Pod, it's only ever on the purifiers, but since they're using the pod as a transport it all arrives at the same time, on turn one (assuming you pass the roll, of course).
Quite frankly, the more I look at this I just don't see how this is false. The rules are fairly clear on how Combined units rolling for reserves works, and the fact that you are placed in Deep Strike Reserves. If someone can point to an actual rule that refutes this, please do, but RAI arguments are not a counter to the facts presented here.
no one has shown that you are allowed to use special rules that modify when things can come into reserves by only one of the units in a combined reserves roll having the ability.
There is no actual RaW that you can ignore the restrictions on when things may arrive.
You have permission to roll for units placed in DS reserves starting turn 1 if they are from the NSF.
So you have an combined unit:
Drop PoD [SW Detachment]
Purifier Squad [NSFDetachment]
one has permission to roll for arrival on turn 1, the other does not.
Combined reserves do not give you permission to extend special rules across the units, and it is a combined roll not a combined unit where you get to count the special rules for any unit for all the units.
As you are not allowed to roll for one of the units until turn 2, you may not make a combined roll for both- ie 1 roll in place of rolling separately for both, until turn 2 because one of the units is not allowed to arrive yet, or roll to arrive.
No, it's demonstrably a combined unit - the rule calls it that.
And please cite the rule denying the Purifiers the ability to roll to arrive turn 1. They demonstrably have it and you're denying them that rule. Cite the denial.
blaktoof wrote: no one has shown that you are allowed to use special rules that modify when things can come into reserves by only one of the units in a combined reserves roll having the ability.
There is no actual RaW that you can ignore the restrictions on when things may arrive.
You have permission to roll for units placed in DS reserves starting turn 1 if they are from the NSF.
So you have an combined unit:
Drop PoD [SW Detachment]
Purifier Squad [NSFDetachment]
one has permission to roll for arrival on turn 1, the other does not.
Combined reserves do not give you permission to extend special rules across the units, and it is a combined roll not a combined unit where you get to count the special rules for any unit for all the units.
As you are not allowed to roll for one of the units until turn 2, you may not make a combined roll for both- ie 1 roll in place of rolling separately for both, until turn 2 because one of the units is not allowed to arrive yet, or roll to arrive.
Comm Relays modify the rolls to arrive, which is a specific special rule that modifies what Turn a Combined a Unit may arrive by directly effecting the roll. That's just one example.
comm relays modifies the roll to arrive, it does not give the ability to arrive a turn the unit count not arrive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote: No, it's demonstrably a combined unit - the rule calls it that.
And please cite the rule denying the Purifiers the ability to roll to arrive turn 1. They demonstrably have it and you're denying them that rule. Cite the denial.
again you fail to cite a single rule supporting special rules for one unit to extend to another.
rigeld2 wrote: No, it's demonstrably a combined unit - the rule calls it that.
And please cite the rule denying the Purifiers the ability to roll to arrive turn 1. They demonstrably have it and you're denying them that rule. Cite the denial.
again you fail to cite a single rule supporting special rules for one unit to extend to another.
It's been cited repeatedly in this thread.
It's called "Combined Reserve Units". I'm sure you are just confused because you thought it was called "Combined Reserve Rolls". I'm glad I could clear up your confusion.
confoo22 wrote: Though it is a combined unit, this rule allows you to pick which component you are rolling for when making a reserve roll, in this case the purifiers, who get to roll on turn one thanks to the modifier in NSF and the fact that they are in Deep Strike Reserves. And since everything must arrive together, it all does so via the Drop Pod because that's their transport.
There is indeed one rule that will make your certainty quoted above fail:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
What does "them" refer to in the sentence above? The "Deep Striking units" you are rolling for.
So, as per your argument, you may:
A) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Transport Vehicle.
B) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Unit of purifiers.
You then have to follow, per RaW: "then deploy them as follows".
I will insist on the rule i've quoted above, that you must deploy the Unit you rolled for.
blaktoof wrote:no one has shown that you are allowed to use special rules that modify when things can come into reserves by only one of the units in a combined reserves roll having the ability.
There is no actual RaW that you can ignore the restrictions on when things may arrive.
You have permission to roll for units placed in DS reserves starting turn 1 if they are from the NSF.
So you have an combined unit:
Drop PoD [SW Detachment]
Purifier Squad [NSFDetachment]
one has permission to roll for arrival on turn 1, the other does not.
Combined reserves do not give you permission to extend special rules across the units, and it is a combined roll not a combined unit where you get to count the special rules for any unit for all the units.
As you are not allowed to roll for one of the units until turn 2, you may not make a combined roll for both- ie 1 roll in place of rolling separately for both, until turn 2 because one of the units is not allowed to arrive yet, or roll to arrive.
I feel like you missed the entire last paragraph of my post. Rites of Teleportation is not, nor will ever be, on the Drop Pod. But in this case it doesn't matter, because the drop pod isn't what's receiving the modifier, it's the purifiers. The rule that allows them to modify the turn they roll for reserves is RoT, so I will refer you to that when you ask me to cite a rule. And I've already explained why the purifiers get to roll even when the Drop Pod doesn't, and why they all arrive together, a la the Combined Units rule for reserves, so I will refer you to that on page 135 of the BRB. Please cite a rule that countermands this.
BlackTalos wrote:
confoo22 wrote: Though it is a combined unit, this rule allows you to pick which component you are rolling for when making a reserve roll, in this case the purifiers, who get to roll on turn one thanks to the modifier in NSF and the fact that they are in Deep Strike Reserves. And since everything must arrive together, it all does so via the Drop Pod because that's their transport.
There is indeed one rule that will make your certainty quoted above fail:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
What does "them" refer to in the sentence above? The "Deep Striking units" you are rolling for.
So, as per your argument, you may:
A) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Transport Vehicle.
B) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Unit of purifiers.
You then have to follow, per RaW: "then deploy them as follows".
I will insist on the rule i've quoted above, that you must deploy the Unit you rolled for.
Correct, you must deploy the unit you roll for, in this case, the purifiers. And since you're deploying them you must deploy the transport they are in because of combined units in reserve rule. Because they are coming from deep strike reserves and since they must arrive together with the purifiers embarked you deep strike the drop pod as you normally would. The purifiers are being deployed by deep strike (remember that arriving from deep strike reserves is the same as deep striking thanks to the deep strike rule), so the rule you're citing is satisfied, but there is nothing there that restricts the drop pod from arriving via deep strike as the transport for the purifiers.
the point is, the combined reserves rule does not allow you to ignore the restriction of when some of the units can arrive based on the permission of one of the units. Which you and everyone else suggesting this is valid has ignored and not addressed.
as has been pointed out to you multiple times
the purifies do not get to roll.
you make 1 roll for the combined units when they are available to arrive, instead of separate rolls for each one.
The rules do not state, nor even suggest, that you make 1 roll based on one of the units in the combined reserves and then arrive all the units based on solely when that unit may arrive.
confoo22 wrote: Though it is a combined unit, this rule allows you to pick which component you are rolling for when making a reserve roll, in this case the purifiers, who get to roll on turn one thanks to the modifier in NSF and the fact that they are in Deep Strike Reserves. And since everything must arrive together, it all does so via the Drop Pod because that's their transport.
There is indeed one rule that will make your certainty quoted above fail:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
What does "them" refer to in the sentence above? The "Deep Striking units" you are rolling for.
So, as per your argument, you may:
A) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Transport Vehicle.
B) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Unit of purifiers.
You then have to follow, per RaW: "then deploy them as follows".
I will insist on the rule i've quoted above, that you must deploy the Unit you rolled for.
Insist all you want, we're just asking that you cite proof.
Deploying "them" is an accurate statement based on the wording of Combined Units, which means that as "proof", it's very weak. So weak, in fact that it supports the "NSF + DP + RoT = Legal" position as read (RAW) rather than your position as you have implied (RAI).
blaktoof wrote: the point is, the combined reserves rule does not allow you to ignore the restriction of when some of the units can arrive based on the permission of one of the units. Which you and everyone else suggesting this is valid has ignored and not addressed.
as has been pointed out to you multiple times
the purifies do not get to roll.
you make 1 roll for the combined units when they are available to arrive, instead of separate rolls for each one.
The purifiers absolutely do get to roll - like, it's literally there in black ink. I have no idea how to refute your point other than showing you the same quote 50 times. The purifiers roll per RoT, then bring along their transport because of the Combined Unit rule. It isn't even hard.
confoo22 wrote: Though it is a combined unit, this rule allows you to pick which component you are rolling for when making a reserve roll, in this case the purifiers, who get to roll on turn one thanks to the modifier in NSF and the fact that they are in Deep Strike Reserves. And since everything must arrive together, it all does so via the Drop Pod because that's their transport.
There is indeed one rule that will make your certainty quoted above fail:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
What does "them" refer to in the sentence above? The "Deep Striking units" you are rolling for.
So, as per your argument, you may:
A) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Transport Vehicle.
B) "roll a single dice for the unit or its (...)Transport vehicle." You choose to roll for the Unit of purifiers.
You then have to follow, per RaW: "then deploy them as follows".
I will insist on the rule i've quoted above, that you must deploy the Unit you rolled for.
"them" refers to the Combined Unit. The rules for Combined Unit allows you to roll for a specific part of that Combined Unit in order to bring the entire unit... all thanks to GW's poor use of 'and/or'.
I really believe it was not intended, but RAW that's how it looks to me.
blaktoof wrote: the point is, the combined reserves rule does not allow you to ignore the restriction of when some of the units can arrive based on the permission of one of the units. Which you and everyone else suggesting this is valid has ignored and not addressed.
That's a lie - I have addressed it.
as has been pointed out to you multiple times
the purifies do not get to roll.
you make 1 roll for the combined units when they are available to arrive, instead of separate rolls for each one.
The rules do not state, nor even suggest, that you make 1 roll based on one of the units in the combined reserves and then arrive all the units based on solely when that unit may arrive.
Yes or no - are the Purifiers eligible to arrive on turn one? Simple question, just needs a one word answer.
blaktoof wrote: the point is, the combined reserves rule does not allow you to ignore the restriction of when some of the units can arrive based on the permission of one of the units. Which you and everyone else suggesting this is valid has ignored and not addressed.
as has been pointed out to you multiple times
the purifies do not get to roll.
you make 1 roll for the combined units when they are available to arrive, instead of separate rolls for each one.
The rules do not state, nor even suggest, that you make 1 roll based on one of the units in the combined reserves and then arrive all the units based on solely when that unit may arrive.
Except you haven't pointed that out at all. All you've done is insist that it can't be done, but you don't cite any rules that actually say you can't. When making a reserves roll you can make a single roll for any component and the entire unit arrives at the same time. The purifiers get to roll for reserves on turn one, that is when they are available to arrive. When they come in the drop pod comes in. There is nothing in the rules that says that a modifier for one component of the unit is automatically invalidated because they are in a combined unit. Since you already permitted by the NSF rules to roll on turn one if you are in DS reserves, you need something that countermands that, and I have yet to see a solid rule that does that.
blaktoof wrote: the point is, the combined reserves rule does not allow you to ignore the restriction of when some of the units can arrive based on the permission of one of the units. Which you and everyone else suggesting this is valid has ignored and not addressed.
as has been pointed out to you multiple times
the purifies do not get to roll.
you make 1 roll for the combined units when they are available to arrive, instead of separate rolls for each one.
The purifiers absolutely do get to roll - like, it's literally there in black ink. I have no idea how to refute your point other than showing you the same quote 50 times. The purifiers roll per RoT, then bring along their transport because of the Combined Unit rule. It isn't even hard.
In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/ or its Independent Character/ Transport vehicle.
where in there does it say you get to roll for just the unit and bring the rest?
As it reads you make a single roll for all of the things together. Not one of the things and bring the rest.
blaktoof wrote: So still no rules to cite you can bring models that are not eligible to arrive using the special rule of a different unit?
got it, your failure to support your point is noted.
The rule is there and has been quoted, repeatedly.
Have you actually missed all the posts referring to the "Combined Units Rule"? I can't believe that you have...
In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/ or its Independent Character/ Transport vehicle.
where in there does it say you get to roll for just the unit and bring the rest?
As it reads you make a single roll for all of the things together. Not one of the things and bring the rest.
are all of the things eligible to roll turn 1?
The first part of that rule says that any ICs and transports attached to a combined unit must all arrive at the same time but you only make a single roll. Please go read the rule, it's on page 135, right side column, about halfway down. And it doesn't matter whether or not all the components are eligible to roll on turn one, you only need to make a single roll for one component to determine if you arrive from reserves, in this case the purifiers, which are eligible to roll beginning on turn 1. Again, the rule is clear that you get to choose which component you roll for and there is nothing that precludes you from rolling on turn one for the purifiers.
In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/ or its Independent Character/ Transport vehicle.
where in there does it say you get to roll for just the unit and bring the rest?
I underlined it. I can't believe you missed it every time.
As it reads you make a single roll for all of the things together. Not one of the things and bring the rest.
Perhaps you have... you do see the word "or" there, correct?
are all of the things eligible to roll turn 1?
One is. Now, cite the rule denying the Purifiers the ability to come in turn 1. You've asserted that fact; support it.
confoo22 wrote: Correct, you must deploy the unit you roll for, in this case, the purifiers. And since you're deploying them you must deploy the transport they are in because of combined units in reserve rule. Because they are coming from deep strike reserves and since they must arrive together with the purifiers embarked you deep strike the drop pod as you normally would. The purifiers are being deployed by deep strike (remember that arriving from deep strike reserves is the same as deep striking thanks to the deep strike rule), so the rule you're citing is satisfied, but there is nothing there that restricts the drop pod from arriving via deep strike as the transport for the purifiers.
Insist all you want, we're just asking that you cite proof.
Deploying "them" is an accurate statement based on the wording of Combined Units, which means that as "proof", it's very weak. So weak, in fact that it supports the "NSF + DP + RoT = Legal" position as read (RAW) rather than your position as you have implied (RAI).
SJ
Zimko wrote: "them" refers to the Combined Unit. The rules for Combined Unit allows you to roll for a specific part of that Combined Unit in order to bring the entire unit... all thanks to GW's poor use of 'and/or'.
I really believe it was not intended, but RAW that's how it looks to me.
This is not a RaW misunderstanding, but a grammatical mistake:
"Roll for (X) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
"them" does not refer to the Combined Unit. "them" refers to the Unit you are rolling for, (X).
If you think that you can roll for the Purifiers (only) , then you deploy the Purifiers (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Drop Pod (only) , then you deploy the Drop Pod (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Combined Unit , then you deploy the Combined Unit.
The above is simple grammar. "Them" is a pronoun that is specifically linked to the phrase before it: "rolling for (object)". Whatever you choose to as the subject of "rolling for" will be what "them" is referring to.
This then leads to the secondary issue of deploying your selected "subject".
BlackTalos wrote: This is not a RaW misunderstanding, but a grammatical mistake:
"Roll for (X) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
"them" does not refer to the Combined Unit. "them" refers to the Unit you are rolling for, (X).
If you think that you can roll for the Purifiers (only) , then you deploy the Purifiers (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Drop Pod (only) , then you deploy the Drop Pod (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Combined Unit , then you deploy the Combined Unit.
The above is simple grammar. "Them" is a pronoun that is specifically linked to the phrase before it: "rolling for (object)". Whatever you choose to as the subject of "rolling for" will be what "them" is referring to.
This then leads to the secondary issue of deploying your selected "subject".
There's no mistake here. "Them" could refer to a single model in the unit, but thanks to rule on page 135, if any part of the unit comes in the entire unit comes in. There's no implied "only" because it's spelled out elsewhere that the entire unit must arrive at the same time and if they arrive from DS reserves then they arrive by deep strike and the rule you're citing is satisfied. And since the purifiers are in a transport you deploy the transport first and then follow the rules for deep striking in a drop pod since those supersede the standard DS deployment rules.
confoo22 wrote: Correct, you must deploy the unit you roll for, in this case, the purifiers. And since you're deploying them you must deploy the transport they are in because of combined units in reserve rule. Because they are coming from deep strike reserves and since they must arrive together with the purifiers embarked you deep strike the drop pod as you normally would. The purifiers are being deployed by deep strike (remember that arriving from deep strike reserves is the same as deep striking thanks to the deep strike rule), so the rule you're citing is satisfied, but there is nothing there that restricts the drop pod from arriving via deep strike as the transport for the purifiers.
Insist all you want, we're just asking that you cite proof.
Deploying "them" is an accurate statement based on the wording of Combined Units, which means that as "proof", it's very weak. So weak, in fact that it supports the "NSF + DP + RoT = Legal" position as read (RAW) rather than your position as you have implied (RAI).
SJ
Zimko wrote: "them" refers to the Combined Unit. The rules for Combined Unit allows you to roll for a specific part of that Combined Unit in order to bring the entire unit... all thanks to GW's poor use of 'and/or'.
I really believe it was not intended, but RAW that's how it looks to me.
This is not a RaW misunderstanding, but a grammatical mistake:
"Roll for (X) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
"them" does not refer to the Combined Unit. "them" refers to the Unit you are rolling for, (X).
If you think that you can roll for the Purifiers (only) , then you deploy the Purifiers (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Drop Pod (only) , then you deploy the Drop Pod (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Combined Unit , then you deploy the Combined Unit.
The above is simple grammar. "Them" is a pronoun that is specifically linked to the phrase before it: "rolling for (object)". Whatever you choose to as the subject of "rolling for" will be what "them" is referring to.
This then leads to the secondary issue of deploying your selected "subject".
Of all the people to play the grammar card, you sir are far from the best authority based on your previous posts to date. I would recommend an English 101 class.
confoo22 wrote: Correct, you must deploy the unit you roll for, in this case, the purifiers. And since you're deploying them you must deploy the transport they are in because of combined units in reserve rule. Because they are coming from deep strike reserves and since they must arrive together with the purifiers embarked you deep strike the drop pod as you normally would. The purifiers are being deployed by deep strike (remember that arriving from deep strike reserves is the same as deep striking thanks to the deep strike rule), so the rule you're citing is satisfied, but there is nothing there that restricts the drop pod from arriving via deep strike as the transport for the purifiers.
Insist all you want, we're just asking that you cite proof.
Deploying "them" is an accurate statement based on the wording of Combined Units, which means that as "proof", it's very weak. So weak, in fact that it supports the "NSF + DP + RoT = Legal" position as read (RAW) rather than your position as you have implied (RAI).
SJ
Zimko wrote: "them" refers to the Combined Unit. The rules for Combined Unit allows you to roll for a specific part of that Combined Unit in order to bring the entire unit... all thanks to GW's poor use of 'and/or'.
I really believe it was not intended, but RAW that's how it looks to me.
This is not a RaW misunderstanding, but a grammatical mistake:
"Roll for (X) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
"them" does not refer to the Combined Unit. "them" refers to the Unit you are rolling for, (X).
If you think that you can roll for the Purifiers (only) , then you deploy the Purifiers (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Drop Pod (only) , then you deploy the Drop Pod (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Combined Unit , then you deploy the Combined Unit.
The above is simple grammar. "Them" is a pronoun that is specifically linked to the phrase before it: "rolling for (object)". Whatever you choose to as the subject of "rolling for" will be what "them" is referring to.
This then leads to the secondary issue of deploying your selected "subject".
Of all the people to play the grammar card, you sir are far from the best authority based on your previous posts to date. I would recommend an English 101 class.
SJ
What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Xenomancers wrote: What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Sure, if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
Which, of course, you shouldn't. But your argument absolutely does.
BlackTalos wrote: This is not a RaW misunderstanding, but a grammatical mistake:
"Roll for (X) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
"them" does not refer to the Combined Unit. "them" refers to the Unit you are rolling for, (X).
If you think that you can roll for the Purifiers (only) , then you deploy the Purifiers (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Drop Pod (only) , then you deploy the Drop Pod (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Combined Unit , then you deploy the Combined Unit.
The above is simple grammar. "Them" is a pronoun that is specifically linked to the phrase before it: "rolling for (object)". Whatever you choose to as the subject of "rolling for" will be what "them" is referring to.
This then leads to the secondary issue of deploying your selected "subject".
There's no mistake here. "Them" could refer to a single model in the unit, but thanks to rule on page 135, if any part of the unit comes in the entire unit comes in. There's no implied "only" because it's spelled out elsewhere that the entire unit must arrive at the same time and if they arrive from DS reserves then they arrive by deep strike and the rule you're citing is satisfied. And since the purifiers are in a transport you deploy the transport first and then follow the rules for deep striking in a drop pod since those supersede the standard DS deployment rules.
I believe you used the word "could" - this present a problem for you because that word - implies there are other possibilities.
BlackTalos wrote: This is not a RaW misunderstanding, but a grammatical mistake:
"Roll for (X) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
"them" does not refer to the Combined Unit. "them" refers to the Unit you are rolling for, (X).
If you think that you can roll for the Purifiers (only) , then you deploy the Purifiers (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Drop Pod (only) , then you deploy the Drop Pod (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Combined Unit , then you deploy the Combined Unit.
The above is simple grammar. "Them" is a pronoun that is specifically linked to the phrase before it: "rolling for (object)". Whatever you choose to as the subject of "rolling for" will be what "them" is referring to.
This then leads to the secondary issue of deploying your selected "subject".
There's no mistake here. "Them" could refer to a single model in the unit, but thanks to rule on page 135, if any part of the unit comes in the entire unit comes in. There's no implied "only" because it's spelled out elsewhere that the entire unit must arrive at the same time and if they arrive from DS reserves then they arrive by deep strike and the rule you're citing is satisfied. And since the purifiers are in a transport you deploy the transport first and then follow the rules for deep striking in a drop pod since those supersede the standard DS deployment rules.
The rule on page 135 tells you that "they will arrive together". It does not bypass the "you deploy what you roll for" as clearly explained above. If you roll for the Purifiers, then you deploy the Purifiers. But as you have clearly said yourself "you deploy the transport first and then follow the rules for deep striking in a drop pod".
Xenomancers wrote: What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Sure, if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
Which, of course, you shouldn't. But your argument absolutely does.
What am I ignoring? The combined reserve rule does not grant permission to extend special rules to a unit that does not have them. Which is exactly where the flaw in your argument lies.
BlackTalos wrote: This is not a RaW misunderstanding, but a grammatical mistake:
"Roll for (X) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
"them" does not refer to the Combined Unit. "them" refers to the Unit you are rolling for, (X).
If you think that you can roll for the Purifiers (only) , then you deploy the Purifiers (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Drop Pod (only) , then you deploy the Drop Pod (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Combined Unit , then you deploy the Combined Unit.
The above is simple grammar. "Them" is a pronoun that is specifically linked to the phrase before it: "rolling for (object)". Whatever you choose to as the subject of "rolling for" will be what "them" is referring to.
This then leads to the secondary issue of deploying your selected "subject".
There's no mistake here. "Them" could refer to a single model in the unit, but thanks to rule on page 135, if any part of the unit comes in the entire unit comes in. There's no implied "only" because it's spelled out elsewhere that the entire unit must arrive at the same time and if they arrive from DS reserves then they arrive by deep strike and the rule you're citing is satisfied. And since the purifiers are in a transport you deploy the transport first and then follow the rules for deep striking in a drop pod since those supersede the standard DS deployment rules.
The rule on page 135 tells you that "they will arrive together". It does not bypass the "you deploy what you roll for" as clearly explained above. If you roll for the Purifiers, then you deploy the Purifiers. But as you have clearly said yourself "you deploy the transport first and then follow the rules for deep striking in a drop pod".
The Purifiers absolutely deploy - at the same time as their Transport and their IC, per the Combined Unit rule. Subsequent to their deployment, they disembark.
Xenomancers wrote: What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Sure, if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
Which, of course, you shouldn't. But your argument absolutely does.
I fully agree with Rigeld by the way, the only correct RaW is:
If you think that you can roll for the Combined Unit , then you deploy the Combined Unit.
These are incorrect by RaW and the "Combined Reserve Units" Rule:
If you think that you can roll for the Purifiers (only) , then you deploy the Purifiers (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Drop Pod (only) , then you deploy the Drop Pod (only).
Xenomancers wrote: What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Sure, if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
Which, of course, you shouldn't. But your argument absolutely does.
What am I ignoring? The combined reserve rule does not grant permission to extend special rules to a unit that does not have them. Which is exactly where the flaw in your argument lies.
No, but it does grant them permission to arrive together when their Reserve Roll is passed. The Purifiers roll on Turn 1, following the RoT rules for a unit in DS reserves. Then, Combined Units brings them all in together. No rules are transferred.
Unit1126PLL wrote: The Purifiers absolutely deploy - at the same time as their Transport and their IC, per the Combined Unit rule. Subsequent to their deployment, they disembark.
Edit:
They cannot be deploying, as only the Model arriving by Deep Strike may Deploy, per RaW:
deploy them as follows: • First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive,
BlackTalos wrote: This is not a RaW misunderstanding, but a grammatical mistake:
"Roll for (X) as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
"them" does not refer to the Combined Unit. "them" refers to the Unit you are rolling for, (X).
If you think that you can roll for the Purifiers (only) , then you deploy the Purifiers (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Drop Pod (only) , then you deploy the Drop Pod (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Combined Unit , then you deploy the Combined Unit.
The above is simple grammar. "Them" is a pronoun that is specifically linked to the phrase before it: "rolling for (object)". Whatever you choose to as the subject of "rolling for" will be what "them" is referring to.
This then leads to the secondary issue of deploying your selected "subject".
There's no mistake here. "Them" could refer to a single model in the unit, but thanks to rule on page 135, if any part of the unit comes in the entire unit comes in. There's no implied "only" because it's spelled out elsewhere that the entire unit must arrive at the same time and if they arrive from DS reserves then they arrive by deep strike and the rule you're citing is satisfied. And since the purifiers are in a transport you deploy the transport first and then follow the rules for deep striking in a drop pod since those supersede the standard DS deployment rules.
I believe you used the word "could" - this present a problem for you because that word - implies there are other possibilities.
I was using that as an example to bolster my point since it doesn't matter what part of the unit "them" actually refers to. But even if what you were saying was true (it's not) it doesn't change my argument or make it any less valid.
Do you have any rules citations to refute my claims yet?
Xenomancers wrote: What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Sure, if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
Which, of course, you shouldn't. But your argument absolutely does.
I fully agree with Rigeld by the way, the only correct RaW is:
If you think that you can roll for the Combined Unit , then you deploy the Combined Unit.
These are incorrect by RaW and the "Combined Reserve Units" Rule:
If you think that you can roll for the Purifiers (only) , then you deploy the Purifiers (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Drop Pod (only) , then you deploy the Drop Pod (only).
How about you roll for the Purifiers (only) and then bring in the whole Combined Unit, utilizing the and/or clause cited multiple times?
confoo22 wrote: Do you have any rules citations to refute my claims yet?
Yup, right here:
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive,
The purifiers cannot do the above, especially "place one model from the unit anywhere on the table". Because only the Pod does so.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: How about you roll for the Purifiers (only) and then bring in the whole Combined Unit, utilizing the and/or clause cited multiple times?
Because no rules allow you to do so, or find it and Quote it...
Xenomancers wrote: What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Sure, if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
Which, of course, you shouldn't. But your argument absolutely does.
I fully agree with Rigeld by the way, the only correct RaW is:
If you think that you can roll for the Combined Unit , then you deploy the Combined Unit.
These are incorrect by RaW and the "Combined Reserve Units" Rule:
If you think that you can roll for the Purifiers (only) , then you deploy the Purifiers (only).
If you think that you can roll for the Drop Pod (only) , then you deploy the Drop Pod (only).
The 'Arriving by Deep Strike' section doesn't care how you rolled for 'them' (the Combined Unit). The rules for Combined Unit allow you to roll for a single part of that unit (via and/or) in order to determine if the Combined Unit can arrive. The Purifiers are part of a Combined Unit (Drop Pod and Purifiers) which are both together in Deep Strike Reserves. RoT allows for a Grey Knight unit to roll for arriving on Turn 1 if they are in Deep Strike Reserve. The Purifiers have permission to roll, and the Combined Unit rule gives them permission to roll on behalf of the entire Combined Unit.
Unit1126PLL wrote: The Purifiers absolutely deploy - at the same time as their Transport and their IC, per the Combined Unit rule. Subsequent to their deployment, they disembark.
Edit:
They cannot be deploying, as only the Model arriving by Deep Strike may Deploy, per RaW:
deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you
would like it to arrive,
Except that is overridden by the Drop Pod's rules as a deep-striking transport. Unless you think the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike, which they explicitly are by the last sentence just after the bullet point list you started to quote.
Zimko wrote: The 'Arriving by Deep Strike' section doesn't care how you rolled for 'them' (the Combined Unit). The rules for Combined Unit allow you to roll for a single part of that unit (via and/or) in order to determine if the Combined Unit can arrive. The Purifiers are part of a Combined Unit (Drop Pod and Purifiers) which are both together in Deep Strike Reserves. RoT allows for a Grey Knight unit to roll for arriving on Turn 1 if they are in Deep Strike Reserve. The Purifiers have permission to roll, and the Combined Unit rule gives them permission to roll on behalf of the entire Combined Unit.
And when you follow the rules for Deep Strike, it demands you deploy the Unit you rolled for (which, as you've just said: "roll for a single part of that unit (via and/or) in order to determine if the Combined Unit can arrive)
Did you roll for the Purifiers, or did you roll for the Combined Unit? Simple question.
Zimko wrote: The 'Arriving by Deep Strike' section doesn't care how you rolled for 'them' (the Combined Unit). The rules for Combined Unit allow you to roll for a single part of that unit (via and/or) in order to determine if the Combined Unit can arrive. The Purifiers are part of a Combined Unit (Drop Pod and Purifiers) which are both together in Deep Strike Reserves. RoT allows for a Grey Knight unit to roll for arriving on Turn 1 if they are in Deep Strike Reserve. The Purifiers have permission to roll, and the Combined Unit rule gives them permission to roll on behalf of the entire Combined Unit.
And when you follow the rules for Deep Strike, it demands you deploy the Unit you rolled for (which, as you've just said: "roll for a single part of that unit (via and/or) in order to determine if the Combined Unit can arrive) Did you roll for the Purifiers, or did you roll for the Combined Unit? Simple question.
We rolled for the Purifiers, which results in the arrival of the entire Combined Unit simultaneously.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Except that is overridden by the Drop Pod's rules as a deep-striking transport. Unless you think the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike, which they explicitly are by the last sentence just after the bullet point list you started to quote.
Sigh, the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike. Proven many times, i will not do it again.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Except that is overridden by the Drop Pod's rules as a deep-striking transport. Unless you think the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike, which they explicitly are by the last sentence just after the bullet point list you started to quote.
Sigh, the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike. Proven many times, i will not do it again.
Then what do you make of this sentence:
BRB wrote:In the movement phase, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to Disembark from a Deep Striking transport vehicle.
Zimko wrote: The 'Arriving by Deep Strike' section doesn't care how you rolled for 'them' (the Combined Unit). The rules for Combined Unit allow you to roll for a single part of that unit (via and/or) in order to determine if the Combined Unit can arrive. The Purifiers are part of a Combined Unit (Drop Pod and Purifiers) which are both together in Deep Strike Reserves. RoT allows for a Grey Knight unit to roll for arriving on Turn 1 if they are in Deep Strike Reserve. The Purifiers have permission to roll, and the Combined Unit rule gives them permission to roll on behalf of the entire Combined Unit.
And when you follow the rules for Deep Strike, it demands you deploy the Unit you rolled for (which, as you've just said: "roll for a single part of that unit (via and/or) in order to determine if the Combined Unit can arrive)
Did you roll for the Purifiers, or did you roll for the Combined Unit? Simple question.
I rolled for the Combined Unit. The Purifiers rolled on behalf of the Combined Unit as per the Combined Unit rule. So the answer to your loaded question is 'both'.
BlackTalos wrote: The rule on page 135 tells you that "they will arrive together". It does not bypass the "you deploy what you roll for" as clearly explained above. If you roll for the Purifiers, then you deploy the Purifiers. But as you have clearly said yourself "you deploy the transport first and then follow the rules for deep striking in a drop pod".
When you roll for a combined unit they all arrive from reserves at the same time and are then available to be deployed. Since they arrive in a drop pod as their transport, the rules for deploying drop pods then supersede the normal Deep Strike rule. But through it all, one fact that never changes is that you are still deploying the purifiers by deep strike. Thanks to their transport circumstances they follow a different set of rules for deployment, but they're still being deployed. There is no implied "only" as you keep insisting. The rule you are citing is satisfied.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Except that is overridden by the Drop Pod's rules as a deep-striking transport. Unless you think the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike, which they explicitly are by the last sentence just after the bullet point list you started to quote.
Sigh, the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike. Proven many times, i will not do it again.
Then what do you make of this sentence:
BRB wrote:In the movement phase, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to Disembark from a Deep Striking transport vehicle.
The units move as normally...they just can't assault because they are coming out of reserves.
And btw, the passengers absolutely are arriving by Deep Strike. Any unit that arrives from Deep Strike Reserves is considered to have arrived by Deep Strike and vice versa. This rule has been covered several times in this thread
Xenomancers wrote: What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Sure, if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
Which, of course, you shouldn't. But your argument absolutely does.
What am I ignoring? The combined reserve rule does not grant permission to extend special rules to a unit that does not have them. Which is exactly where the flaw in your argument lies.
I'm not extending any special rules. I don't need to.
I'm rolling for the Combined unit of Purifiers plus Drop Pod. The Purifiers allow me to roll for their arrival on turn one. Because it's a combined unit, they must (not optional) arrive together.
Cite the denial for the Purifier's ability that your argument requires.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Except that is overridden by the Drop Pod's rules as a deep-striking transport. Unless you think the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike, which they explicitly are by the last sentence just after the bullet point list you started to quote.
Sigh, the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike. Proven many times, i will not do it again.
Then what do you make of this sentence:
BRB wrote:In the movement phase, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to Disembark from a Deep Striking transport vehicle.
The units move as normally...they just can't assault because they are coming out of reserves.
Right, but the sentence calls a unit disembarking from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Except that is overridden by the Drop Pod's rules as a deep-striking transport. Unless you think the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike, which they explicitly are by the last sentence just after the bullet point list you started to quote.
Sigh, the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike. Proven many times, i will not do it again.
Then what do you make of this sentence:
BRB wrote:In the movement phase, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to Disembark from a Deep Striking transport vehicle.
BlackTalos wrote: The Unit (T+Passengers) is Deep Striking, but only the Transport is arriving "by Deep Strike", while the Passengers are arriving "by disembarking", but the entire (combined) Unit is Deep Striking, which leads to: "In that turn’s Assault phase, however, these units cannot charge. This also applies to units that have disembarked from Transports that arrived by Deep Strike that turn."
by Deep Strike =/= Deep Striking?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Talys wrote: Does this not mean the embarked unit is arriving by Deep Strike?
I think i get col_impact's point, which would be the exact opposite of the above:
The embarked Unit is never arriving by Deep Strike, but it is still a "Deep Striking" Unit.
Zimko wrote: The 'Arriving by Deep Strike' section doesn't care how you rolled for 'them' (the Combined Unit). The rules for Combined Unit allow you to roll for a single part of that unit (via and/or) in order to determine if the Combined Unit can arrive. The Purifiers are part of a Combined Unit (Drop Pod and Purifiers) which are both together in Deep Strike Reserves. RoT allows for a Grey Knight unit to roll for arriving on Turn 1 if they are in Deep Strike Reserve. The Purifiers have permission to roll, and the Combined Unit rule gives them permission to roll on behalf of the entire Combined Unit.
And when you follow the rules for Deep Strike, it demands you deploy the Unit you rolled for (which, as you've just said: "roll for a single part of that unit (via and/or) in order to determine if the Combined Unit can arrive) Did you roll for the Purifiers, or did you roll for the Combined Unit? Simple question.
I rolled for the Combined Unit. The Purifiers rolled on behalf of the Combined Unit as per the Combined Unit rule. So the answer to your loaded question is 'both'.
It can't be "both", because the Combined Unit is And/Or. Not And + Or.
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
So who are you rolling for? "the unit or itsTransport vehicle"?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
confoo22 wrote: And btw, the passengers absolutely are arriving by Deep Strike. Any unit that arrives from Deep Strike Reserves is considered to have arrived by Deep Strike and vice versa. This rule has been covered several times in this thread
Unit1126PLL wrote: Except that is overridden by the Drop Pod's rules as a deep-striking transport. Unless you think the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike, which they explicitly are by the last sentence just after the bullet point list you started to quote.
Sigh, the passengers aren't arriving by Deep Strike. Proven many times, i will not do it again.
Then what do you make of this sentence:
BRB wrote:In the movement phase, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to Disembark from a Deep Striking transport vehicle.
The units move as normally...they just can't assault because they are coming out of reserves.
Right, but the sentence calls a unit disembarking from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit.
Xenomancers wrote: What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Sure, if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
Which, of course, you shouldn't. But your argument absolutely does.
What am I ignoring? The combined reserve rule does not grant permission to extend special rules to a unit that does not have them. Which is exactly where the flaw in your argument lies.
I'm not extending any special rules. I don't need to.
I'm rolling for the Combined unit of Purifiers plus Drop Pod. The Purifiers allow me to roll for their arrival on turn one. Because it's a combined unit, they must (not optional) arrive together.
Cite the denial for the Purifier's ability that your argument requires.
Its not a denial, its a case of following all rules.
The drop pod can only roll turn 2
The purifiers can only roll turn 1.
WHere it the permission to only consider the roll for one component of the unit?
In order to comply with all rules - that the unit arrive together, the pod can only roll to arrive turn 2 and purifiers turn 1- you must roll turn 2
Secondly if you do roll for the purifiers, you must deploy "them" - the purifiers. Please xplain how you are deploying them va the DS rules, when to do so you must place a model from the unit - the purifiers - first, and how this squares with the requirement to disembark from the pod.
I missed how you are reconciling these. I'm not at all convinced that using the combined unit rule to roll "for" one unit, then deploying the other, is allowed.
BlackTalos wrote: Did you roll for the Purifiers, or did you roll for the Combined Unit? Simple question.
And the simple answer is yes, you rolled for the Purifiers and the Combined Unit.
The distinction you are trying to make does not exist. As long as the Purifiers are embarked on the Drop Pod, the Purifirrs are both their own unit and part of the Combined Unit.
It can't be "both", because the Combined Unit is And/Or. Not And + Or.
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
So who are you rolling for? "the unit or itsTransport vehicle"?
It's still both. I'm rolling for the combined unit by rolling for the Purifier unit. I've underlined the rule where it states this. You make a roll for A by rolling for B. So yes I'm rolling for both A and B.
Xenomancers wrote: What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Sure, if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
Which, of course, you shouldn't. But your argument absolutely does.
What am I ignoring? The combined reserve rule does not grant permission to extend special rules to a unit that does not have them. Which is exactly where the flaw in your argument lies.
I'm not extending any special rules. I don't need to.
I'm rolling for the Combined unit of Purifiers plus Drop Pod. The Purifiers allow me to roll for their arrival on turn one. Because it's a combined unit, they must (not optional) arrive together.
Cite the denial for the Purifier's ability that your argument requires.
Its not a denial, its a case of following all rules.
The drop pod can only roll turn 2 The purifiers can only roll turn 1.
BlackTalos/quote wrote:It can't be "both", because the Combined Unit is And/Or. Not And + Or.
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
What happens to the Combined Unit when you pass the Roll for the Purifiers?
They follow the Rules for Deep Strike: The Unit that rolled "deploy them as follows:" And you passed the roll for the Purifiers, so they deploy:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive,
It absolutely is. Look under the Deep Strike special rule, there's a sentence that says "When a unit arrives by Deep Strike (sometimes referred to as Deep Strike Reserves)..." (I'm paraphrasing slightly since I don't have the rulebook in hand so that could be reversed). That sentence tells us that anything arriving from Deep Strike reserves is considered to be arriving by Deep Strike, or Deep Striking if you want to make it a verb. So yes, everything that arrives in the combined unit is Deep Striking.
BlackTalos wrote: Did you roll for the Purifiers, or did you roll for the Combined Unit? Simple question.
And the simple answer is yes, you rolled for the Purifiers and the Combined Unit.
The distinction you are trying to make does not exist. As long as the Purifiers are embarked on the Drop Pod, the Purifirrs are both their own unit and part of the Combined Unit.
SJ
Yes they are, but the Rules for Deep Strike ask that you deploy the Unit you rolled for:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
BlackTalos/quote wrote:It can't be "both", because the Combined Unit is And/Or. Not And + Or.
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.
What happens to the Combined Unit when you pass the Roll for the Purifiers?
They follow the Rules for Deep Strike: The Unit that rolled "deploy them as follows:" And you passed the roll for the Purifiers, so they deploy:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive,
So you're suggesting I can deploy the Purifiers thru Deep Strike because I rolled for them in the Combined Unit instead of the Drop Pod? Great so I'll Deep Strike my Purifiers in a totally different location from the Drop Pod next time.
Xenomancers wrote: What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Sure, if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
Which, of course, you shouldn't. But your argument absolutely does.
What am I ignoring? The combined reserve rule does not grant permission to extend special rules to a unit that does not have them. Which is exactly where the flaw in your argument lies.
I'm not extending any special rules. I don't need to.
I'm rolling for the Combined unit of Purifiers plus Drop Pod. The Purifiers allow me to roll for their arrival on turn one. Because it's a combined unit, they must (not optional) arrive together.
Cite the denial for the Purifier's ability that your argument requires.
Its not a denial, its a case of following all rules.
The drop pod can only roll turn 2 The purifiers can only roll turn 1.
The underlined is not actually a rule.
Should state turn 2+. only drop pod assualt allows turn 1 arrival and at this point in the reserves phase those have already been taken into account. In any case - has no effect on the argument - the point is the drop pod is not eligible to arrive turn 1...
Unit1126PLL wrote: Right, but the sentence calls a unit disembarking from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit.
Correct! but it is not arriving by Deep Strike.
It absolutely is. Look under the Deep Strike special rule, there's a sentence that says "When a unit arrives by Deep Strike (sometimes referred to as Deep Strike Reserves)..." (I'm paraphrasing slightly since I don't have the rulebook in hand so that could be reversed). That sentence tells us that anything arriving from Deep Strike reserves is considered to be arriving by Deep Strike, or Deep Striking if you want to make it a verb. So yes, everything that arrives in the combined unit is Deep Striking.
The rules are quoted in the link i posted.
I'll copy a post if you don't want to read:
col_impact wrote: Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit",
No, it cannot, because it never follows the Rules for Deep Striking.
col_impact wrote: because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.
It can do, but it doesn't have to.
You are getting confused. Calling something "Deep Striking unit" does not necessarily mean that that unit Deep Strikes itself. It can also refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.
Otherwise you can't make sense of this rule!
Spoiler:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
Problem is, you cannot make that separation. There are 3 terms here it seems:
1) A unit that Deep Strikes.
2) "Deep Striking" Units
3) A Unit in Deep Strike Reserves.
You say 1) =/= 2) and that 2) = 3)?
I will prove 1) = 2), and can assure you that 2) =/= 3):
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"
Can you "place one model" from the occupants of the Transport? I mean, the occupants ARE "Deep Striking units" right? The are forced by RaW to follow the above.
Q.E.D.: Embarked Units cannot be a Unit that Deep Strike, and as such, cannot be a "Deep Striking unit".
Xenomancers wrote: Should state turn 2+. only drop pod assualt allows turn 1 arrival and at this point in the reserves phase those have already been taken into account. In any case - has no effect on the argument - the point is the drop pod is not eligible to arrive turn 1...
Your statement is correct if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
It's like you haven't read that rule at all or something.
BlackTalos wrote: [Yes they are, but the Rules for Deep Strike ask that you deploy the Unit you rolled for:
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:"
And in this case the rules for Reserves will refer you to combined units which will tell you that any combined unit must arrive all at once and then will be deployed via deep strike using the modified drop pod rules.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Right, but the sentence calls a unit disembarking from a Deep Striking transport a Deep Striking unit.
Correct! but it is not arriving by Deep Strike.
It absolutely is. Look under the Deep Strike special rule, there's a sentence that says "When a unit arrives by Deep Strike (sometimes referred to as Deep Strike Reserves)..." (I'm paraphrasing slightly since I don't have the rulebook in hand so that could be reversed). That sentence tells us that anything arriving from Deep Strike reserves is considered to be arriving by Deep Strike, or Deep Striking if you want to make it a verb. So yes, everything that arrives in the combined unit is Deep Striking.
The rules are quoted in the link i posted.
I'll copy a post if you don't want to read:
col_impact wrote: Yes, a unit embarked upon a Deep Striking Transport can be a "Deep Striking unit",
No, it cannot, because it never follows the Rules for Deep Striking.
col_impact wrote: because the term "Deep Striking unit" can refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.
It can do, but it doesn't have to.
You are getting confused. Calling something "Deep Striking unit" does not necessarily mean that that unit Deep Strikes itself. It can also refer to a unit that arrives from Deep Strike reserves.
Otherwise you can't make sense of this rule!
Spoiler:
In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any
further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.
Problem is, you cannot make that separation. There are 3 terms here it seems:
1) A unit that Deep Strikes.
2) "Deep Striking" Units
3) A Unit in Deep Strike Reserves.
You say 1) =/= 2) and that 2) = 3)?
I will prove 1) = 2), and can assure you that 2) =/= 3):
"Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table"
Can you "place one model" from the occupants of the Transport? I mean, the occupants ARE "Deep Striking units" right? The are forced by RaW to follow the above.
Q.E.D.: Embarked Units cannot be a Unit that Deep Strike, and as such, cannot be a "Deep Striking unit".
You don't actually quote the rule I reference here. If you can spell it out and show where my statement is incorrect please do.
Xenomancers wrote: What is obvious is that the drop pod must be deployed first. So "deploy them" must refer to the drop pod in this case - which is not eligible to arrive turn one outside of drop pod assault.
Sure, if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
Which, of course, you shouldn't. But your argument absolutely does.
What am I ignoring? The combined reserve rule does not grant permission to extend special rules to a unit that does not have them. Which is exactly where the flaw in your argument lies.
I'm not extending any special rules. I don't need to.
I'm rolling for the Combined unit of Purifiers plus Drop Pod. The Purifiers allow me to roll for their arrival on turn one. Because it's a combined unit, they must (not optional) arrive together.
Cite the denial for the Purifier's ability that your argument requires.
Its not a denial, its a case of following all rules.
The drop pod can only roll turn 2 The purifiers can only roll turn 1.
The underlined is not actually a rule.
No, its why it isnt a quote. It is, however, a clear paraphrase of the pertinent bit to this disucssion
To be more precise: the pod only has permission to roll frmo turn 2 onwards
The purifiers have permission to roll from turn 1 onwards
Now, any chance you can answer the questions I asked? Without the pointless nitpicking, that literally adds nothing to the understanding in this thread?
WHen you roll for the purifiers to arrive, how are you then placing "them" (a reference to a rule, indicated by quotes) by folwing the DS deployment rules? You MUST place a purifier model on the table, scatter, and place the rest of the unit. You must also, simultaneously, comply with the DPA rule that the unit disembark frmo the pod.
Given it is impossible to fulfil both rules when rolling "for" the purifiers, you must roll for their Transport Vehicle instead
Which can only roll on turn 2
So, if you disagree, which from your tone throughout you do, please, show how this train of rules is derailed.
Unit1126PLL wrote: It doesn't actually matter whether or not the Purifiers are Deep Striking when they arrive so I dropped that argument.
What triggers RoT is that they are in Deep Strike Reserve.
It does sort of matter for the run and shoot part of NSF, but you are correct that it doesn't matter in the context of whether or not the purifiers can roll on turn one.
nosferatu1001 wrote: No, its why it isnt a quote. It is, however, a clear paraphrase of the pertinent bit to this disucssion
To be more precise: the pod only has permission to roll frmo turn 2 onwards
This is incorrect. Please, be exactly precise.
Pods that aren't part of DPA have permission to roll "as normal". Turn 2 is never mentioned. At all. You're making this up and confusing the issue by doing so.
What's "as normal" when a unit is allowed to roll on turn one?
nosferatu1001 wrote: No, its why it isnt a quote. It is, however, a clear paraphrase of the pertinent bit to this disucssion
To be more precise: the pod only has permission to roll frmo turn 2 onwards
This is incorrect. Please, be exactly precise.
Pods that aren't part of DPA have permission to roll "as normal". Turn 2 is never mentioned. At all. You're making this up and confusing the issue by doing so.
What's "as normal" when a unit is allowed to roll on turn one?
The DP unit isnt allowed to roll turn one, unless it is part of the half, rounded up. It never can roll under the RoT rule, you have to select the purifiers to do that. I've then explained the problems that causes, however you fail to address that part. Maybe address everything this time?
Is this pod part of the half, rounded up? No
What turn is "normal" for it? 2
Xenomancers wrote: Should state turn 2+. only drop pod assualt allows turn 1 arrival and at this point in the reserves phase those have already been taken into account. In any case - has no effect on the argument - the point is the drop pod is not eligible to arrive turn 1...
Your statement is correct if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
It's like you haven't read that rule at all or something.
The combined units reserve roll rule assumes that the roll you are making is a legal roll. It is not a legal roll if all of the units within the combined unit are eligible to make the roll. That is my interpretation.
Xenomancers wrote: It is not a legal roll if all of the units within the combined unit are eligible to make the roll.
Explain how it's not a legal roll and back up with cited rules, please. Others have demonstrated how it is legal, but nobody has found a hard rule that says it's not.
Xenomancers wrote: Should state turn 2+. only drop pod assualt allows turn 1 arrival and at this point in the reserves phase those have already been taken into account. In any case - has no effect on the argument - the point is the drop pod is not eligible to arrive turn 1...
Your statement is correct if you ignore the Combined Reserve Units rule.
It's like you haven't read that rule at all or something.
The combined units reserve roll rule assumes that the roll you are making is a legal roll. It is not a legal roll if all of the units within the combined unit are eligible to make the roll. That is my interpretation.
Xenomancers wrote: It is not a legal roll if all of the units within the combined unit are eligible to make the roll.
Explain how it's not a legal roll and back up with cited rules, please. Others have demonstrated how it is legal, but nobody has found a hard rule that says it's not.
Except that it is stll being discussed. Rolling for the purifiers alone causes at least 2 issues, either of which breaks a rule and thus is not a legal roll unless your rule explciitly allows you to break said rule.
if a unit is inside a drop pod, and that pod is in Ds reserves, where is the unit inside of it?
