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Rorschach9 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation.

RAI is not unknown, Drop pods don't Teleport!
RaW might be unclear, but RAI is crystal.

Except for the nitpicky fact that Rites of Teleportation, despite the name, has nothing to do with Teleportation but rather with Deep Striking units. Not all deep striking units teleport, yet they may have access to Rites of Teleportation.
Stop trying to use a name as part of the rule instead of the actual rule itself.

I very clearly (no, extreamly clearly) made a difference between Raw and RaI in that statement.
I could not have have it more clear that that was an RaI statement.
So absolutely I will take into account the very name of the rule in an RAI statement.

The Drop Pod does not Teleport. I'll bet you'll want to use "inertial guidance" on this teleporting Pod that isn't falling towards the ground as well.
Because thrusters will help with teleporting...
That's RAI incase it wasn't clear enough...

...you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike...

Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves.

You may place a unit of Purifiers into Deep Strike Reserves along with a Space Wolves Drop Pod, as per the rules for Drop Pod Assault. Attempting to make a combined reserves roll for both would conflict with Rites of Teleportation however, as a Space Wolves Drop Pod is not in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment.

It doesn't matter that you may make combined reserves rolls for both unit and transport it is embarked upon; that does not change which detachment unit and Drop Pod belong to.

How can two units be a Combined Unit? Do the purifiers have to stay in coherency with the drop pod?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How can two units be a Combined Unit? Do the purifiers have to stay in coherency with the drop pod?

It's not a combined unit.

There's a rule called "Combined Reserve Units" - it's in the Reserves rules in the Preparing for Battle section.

 grendel083 wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
RAI is an unknown until an FAQ or Errata is released that address this specific situation.

RAI is not unknown, Drop pods don't Teleport!
RaW might be unclear, but RAI is crystal.

Except for the nitpicky fact that Rites of Teleportation, despite the name, has nothing to do with Teleportation but rather with Deep Striking units. Not all deep striking units teleport, yet they may have access to Rites of Teleportation.
Stop trying to use a name as part of the rule instead of the actual rule itself.

I very clearly (no, extreamly clearly) made a difference between Raw and RaI in that statement.
I could not have have it more clear that that was an RaI statement.
So absolutely I will take into account the very name of the rule in an RAI statement.

The Drop Pod does not Teleport. I'll bet you'll want to use "inertial guidance" on this teleporting Pod that isn't falling towards the ground as well.
Because thrusters will help with teleporting...
That's RAI incase it wasn't clear enough...

I would use the inertial guidance element of the Drop Pod rules as that is what the rules tell me to do. If you want to put a house rule into place and not do what the rules tell you to do, that's awesome. Forge that Narrative, buddy. I, on the other hand, leave fluff for my downtime reading and play the game using only the rules as written. Different strokes for different folks.

Could someone look at my post on the first page and tell me what they think of how I have tried to explain it? I think it got overlooked because it was the last post of 1st page.

Oberron, your premise is false based on the wording of Rites of Tekeportation, which does not require all members of the unit to have Deep Strike, or be GK units, or model in a NSF. Rites requires that a NSF unit be in Deep Strike Reserves to gain its benefits. A NSF Purifier unit in a SW Drop a Pod qualifies for Rites because the unit is in Deep Strike Reserves. As such, the Purifiers can legally roll to arrive on Turn 1. Per the Combined rolls you quoted, no restriction exists that states you must use the Drop Pod to roll. The rule in fact leaves the option up to the player, yet does does specifically state the unit and/or attached ICs and Transport.

As it is worded within the rules envolved, permission is granted to roll on Turn 1, and no restrictions exist to tells us to deny the benefit. People argue that there is, yet no rules exist to support their argument.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Oberron, your premise is false based on the wording of Rites of Tekeportation, which does not require all members of the unit to have Deep Strike, or be GK units, or model in a NSF.

False. Please read the restriction for the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment:

All units in this Detachment must have the Grey Knights Faction (or have no Faction).

Since currently all units in the game currently have a Faction, this basically means that all units in the Detachment must be Grey Knights.

And the only unit that matters is.

SJ

Ghaz, what you are talking about has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Please, do tell how your restrictions on foc have anything to do with rites.


Exactly, it has nothing to do with it.

You have permission to roll for purifiers, which implies permission to roll for the combined unit. Seriously, if people were trying to attach terminator chaplains to go terminators/paladins, you wouldn't have a problem with it because it wouldn't single handedly threaten everyone's gunline. People are only worked up about purifier pods because of how effective they are vs gun lines. Pull your big girl panties up, stop calling everything that is hard to deal with broke, and adapt to the game... Or find a new game.

Please quote where the restriction only applies to building the list?

"All units in this s detachment must have the same faction or no faction" pretty clear that it applies to list building. Trying to connect it to ANYTHING else is like trying to connect a connects stick to a Lego block.

I do like how you failed to mention anything about the implied permission to roll, and instead tried throwing up a scarecrow argument.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Oberron, your premise is false based on the wording of Rites of Tekeportation, which does not require all members of the unit to have Deep Strike, or be GK units, or model in a NSF. Rites requires that a NSF unit be in Deep Strike Reserves to gain its benefits. A NSF Purifier unit in a SW Drop a Pod qualifies for Rites because the unit is in Deep Strike Reserves. As such, the Purifiers can legally roll to arrive on Turn 1. Per the Combined rolls you quoted, no restriction exists that states you must use the Drop Pod to roll. The rule in fact leaves the option up to the player, yet does does specifically state the unit and/or attached ICs and Transport.

As it is worded within the rules envolved, permission is granted to roll on Turn 1, and no restrictions exist to tells us to deny the benefit. People argue that there is, yet no rules exist to support their argument.

SJ

Would you or someone else be able to post the rites of teleportation so I could get an accurate read of it?

Edit: and do the purifiers have deep strike? If they do why use a drop pod? If they don't then one would have to use the drop pod for the roll since the unit is embarked on the drop pod and the drop pod is the unit with deep strike USR.

2nd Edit: I guess what I am asking for if one is unable to post the rule in question is in the wording if it just requires a unit to be from NSF or -ONLY- a NSF. If the ROT is looking just for a unit from NSF then I can see that it is alright by a round-a-bount way, but if ROT says -only- then that is where problems come up.

Rites of Teleportation states:

"...you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Detachment that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike..."

Making a combined reserve roll for a unit of Purifiers embarked upon an allied Drop Pod is not making a roll for a unit in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment; it is making a combined reserve roll for one unit from and one unit not from the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment.

"Combined" unit means it is one roll, one unit. It is still a NSF unit.

NSF doesn't require a unit tone made solely of NSF detachment models.

Hmmm but it is also NOT a NSF unit and it Combined Reserve Units rule doesn't make it a single unit either, it makes the distinct point of saying you just make one roll for a unit that has an Independent Character or for the Transport Vehicle. It is not like the IC special rules that allows it to join a unit.

You can't make the roll to deep strike and say that the roll is for the purifiers because htey don't have the Deep Strike USR, but they are embarked on a drop pod with the Deep Strike USR and can "...Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not." It doesn't confer the Deep Strike USR to them.


But then again it does say -ANY- unit in the detachment. But then how is the Drop Pod being rolled for since it isn't part of the Detachment?

I easily see why this is confusing.

The purifiers don't NEED the deep strike usr, the rites just requires the unit be in deep strike reserves, which is where the purifier unit is at.

So the purifiers come into play but the drop pod doesn't? Serious question I've never seen this done before. If the drop pod comes in as well that is a serious no-no because the drop pod isn't part of the purifier unit and isn't part of the detatchment. What rules are allowing the drop pod to come in as well? Unless it doesn't then it seems alright, very wonky and workaround rules wise, but rules wise seems alright.

siege2142 wrote:
"Combined" unit means it is one roll, one unit. It is still a NSF unit.

NSF doesn't require a unit tone made solely of NSF detachment models.

Let's have a look at the actual rules:

Combined Reserve Units

During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case, when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves. At the beginning of your first turn, half your Drop Pods (rounding up) automatically arrive from Reserve. The arrival of remaining Drop Pods is rolled for normally.

Rites of Teleportation: Instead of making Reserve Rolls from the start of your turn two, you can make Reserve Rolls for any unit in this Formation that is placed in Deep Strike Reserve from the start of your turn one. These units will arrive from Deep Strike Reserve on turn one on the roll of 3+. In addition, all units from this Formation can both Run and Shoot, in any order, in the same turn that they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve.

First and foremost, Combined Reserve Units requires you to specify any units in reserve embarked upon a transport vehicle, and requires that they arrive together based on a single reserves roll. So you specify Purifiers are embarked upon a Space Wolves Drop Pod, placing them into Deep Strike Reserves with the Space Wolves Drop Pod.

At the beginning of your first turn half of your Drop Pods come down. Drop Pod Assault requires the remaining Drop Pods to be rolled for as normal. The Purifiers' Drop Pod is not selected as one of the half to come down on turn one, so they are required to be rolled for as normal.

Rites of Teleportation allows you to make reserve rolls on turn one for units in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment which are also in Deep Strike Reserves. The Purifiers are in Deep Strike Reserves but Combined Reserve Units requires them to be rolled for and to arrive together with the Space Wolves Drop Pod, which is not part of the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment as required. Additionally, Drop Pod Assault requires the remaining Drop Pods (with those units embarked upon them, i.e. the Purifiers) to be rolled for as normal.

Rites of Teleportation allows you to make reserve rolls on turn one for units in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment which are also in Deep Strike Reserves. The Purifiers are in Deep Strike Reserves but Combined Reserve Units requires them to be rolled for and to arrive together with the Space Wolves Drop Pod, which is not part of the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment as required. Additionally, Drop Pod Assault requires the remaining Drop Pods (with those units embarked upon them, i.e. the Purifiers) to be rolled for as normal.

Correct. So, what is normal? For a NSF unit in Deep Strike Reserves, normal is roll to arrive on Turn 1. And we are back again.

The crux of the problem is that people keep getting hung up on the faction status of the Drop Pod versus the faction status of the NSF Purifier unit. Thankfully, it doesn't matter.

Again, if Rites had wording restricting its benefits to only GK models, then yes, the Drop Pod's faction status matters. If Rites had wording stating the benefit is lost if on a non-NSF vehicle or if a non-NSF IC was attached, then yes, it would matter. If Rites required the unit to have the Deep Strike USR, then yes, it would matter. However, Rites only requires that the NSF unit be in Deep Strike Reserves to gain the benefit. A NSF Purifier squad in Deep Strike Reserves, by whatever means the squad achieved it, will gain the benefit.

The two specific rules that allow the SW (or BA) Drop Pod to arrive together with the NSF Purifier squad are the Combined Units rules which inform us the Squad and its Transport must arrive together on a single roll, and the Detachment rules that inform us a unit can never lose it's faction nor have more than one faction. These two rules mean that the NSF Purifier squad cannot lose it's NSF status just because it is embarked on an Allied Transport. And while the Transport never loses its faction/detachment status, having the Purifiers embarked cause the Drop Pod and Purifiers to arrive together. Rites allows the Purifiers to roll to arrive on Turn 1. Drop Pod Assault does not force the Drop Pod to roll to arrive on Turn 2, it only states that if the Drop Pod did not arrive automatically on Turn 1, it must roll to arrive normally. Per the Combined Unit rules, "normally" is Turn 1 due to the NSF Purifiers having Rites.

Pounder this: GW has obviously noted this loophole in their own rules, as seen by their more restrictive wording in the recent Blood Angels codex. If GW intended for Battle Brother + Combined Units + Rites of Teleportation =/= Turn 1 roll to arrive, they would have errata'd or FAQ'd the rules by now. As it stands right now, this combo is legal per the rules as written.

SJ

Getting permission to role for the purifiers gives implied permission to role for their unit, combined or otherwise.

siege2142 wrote:
Getting permission to role for the purifiers gives implied permission to role for their unit, combined or otherwise.

Correct.

SJ

You're both making up an implied permission where rolling for a combined reserves unit that is both in and not in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment is somehow the same as making a resrves roll for a unit in the Nemesis Strike Force Detachment.

You are making a reserves roll for the purifiers, which implies permission to roll for a combined unit / combined reserves. It is implied permission, because it isn't specifically called out. Nothing implied is ever specifically called out, hence "implied".

Except the permission is for units in a Nemesis Strike Force Detachment in deep strike reserves, which the Space Wolves Drop Pod is not, even if they make a combined reserves roll.

Making a combined roll does not make both unit and transport from the same detachment as required, which is what you are claiming is implied or otherwise allowed to be waived.

Rites of Teleportation does require all units in a Combined unit to be part of an NSF. Rites does require the NSF unit to be in Deep Strike Reserves, while Combined Units requires all of the separate units to arrive together. What you keep making up is a false restriction that all of the models in the Combined Unit must be NSF units in order to arrive together. Thankfully, that's not how the rules are written.

SJ

Having read through everything, I haven't seen anything that dissuades me from my original thinking that purifiers in a drop pod that do not arrive turn one via drop pod assault could still roll via the rule Rites of Teleportation. As that rule reads, if a unit from that formation is in Deep Strike Reserves they may roll to enter play from turn one on a 3+, regardless of how it got there or if the unit in question natively has deep strike. Did I miss someone posting a rule, either from the formation or the BRB, that restricts it?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Rites of Teleportation does require all units in a Combined unit to be part of an NSF.

SJ

Emphasis mine.

By saying that you know you just showed that this can't work right? The SW drop pod isn't part of the NSF. Combined reserve roll is one roll made for both the purifier and the drop pod. How is one making the roll for the drop pod with rite of teleportation?

It doesn't state all units in a combined unit must be NSF.

But the SW Drop Pod Isn't part of the NSF. How is the drop pod coming in from Rite of teleportation? Where is this permission?