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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?

No, just the Purifiers. The Drop Pod is dragged along because of the Combined Unit rule.

How can you roll for the purifiers if they don't have deep strike?

ROT permits us to roll for a unit in Deep Strike Reserve. A unit embarked in a pod is always in Deep Strike Reserve.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That is to say, the unit does not have to have deep strike - the only restriction on RoT is that the unit be in Deep Strike reserve.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?

Per the Combined Unit rules, I'm rolling for the Combined unit. That could be Purifiers, a SM Libby, and a Drop Pod.

It could be Interceptors and a SM Terminator Captain.

There isn't a difference here.

the difference is both those units have deep strike and nether is embarked on a transport. Deep strike does not confer to units that don't have it. I could use your logic to deep strike a landraider by putting a termy armor libby inside. As idiotic as that sounds...starting to like the sound of this.

 Xenomancers wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?

Per the Combined Unit rules, I'm rolling for the Combined unit. That could be Purifiers, a SM Libby, and a Drop Pod.

It could be Interceptors and a SM Terminator Captain.

There isn't a difference here.

the difference is both those units have deep strike and nether is embarked on a transport. Deep strike does not confer to units that don't have it. I could use your logic to deep strike a landraider by putting a termy armor libby inside. As idiotic as that sounds...starting to like the sound of this.

No, you couldn't. Since that's not how the Deep Strike rules work.
Deep Strike doesn't confer - sure. I'm not interested in arguing that.
It's an irrelevant statement, however, as you're required to roll for the Combined Unit.

I dare you to "use [my] logic to deep strike a land raider". Please, explain how that's possible using actual rules quotes.

Since you roll for the combined unit, wouldn't that mean that the drop pod loses the deep strike option since you are rolling reserves for a non deep strike-able unit? So wouldn't the drop pod just arrive on your own table edge and then be stuck there?

That's what it looks like to me.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?

Per the Combined Unit rules, I'm rolling for the Combined unit. That could be Purifiers, a SM Libby, and a Drop Pod.

It could be Interceptors and a SM Terminator Captain.

There isn't a difference here.

the difference is both those units have deep strike and nether is embarked on a transport. Deep strike does not confer to units that don't have it. I could use your logic to deep strike a landraider by putting a termy armor libby inside. As idiotic as that sounds...starting to like the sound of this.

No, you couldn't. Since that's not how the Deep Strike rules work.
Deep Strike doesn't confer - sure. I'm not interested in arguing that.
It's an irrelevant statement, however, as you're required to roll for the Combined Unit.

I dare you to "use [my] logic to deep strike a land raider". Please, explain how that's possible using actual rules quotes.

It's easy...I'll just call it a combined unit. Which is exactly what you guys are doing...explain how it's different?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:
Since you roll for the combined unit, wouldn't that mean that the drop pod loses the deep strike option since you are rolling reserves for a non deep strike-able unit? So wouldn't the drop pod just arrive on your own table edge and then be stuck there?

That's what it looks like to me.

Except a drop pod can't even move so it couldn't even enter.

See my issue is from the Deep Strike special rule. "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units". Since the Purifiers are not Deep Striking (despite being in Deep Strike Reserves), you cannot roll for them, you are rolling for the Pod, and the Purifiers tag along.

 Xenomancers wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So you are rolling for the Purifiers and rolling for the Drop Pod?

Per the Combined Unit rules, I'm rolling for the Combined unit. That could be Purifiers, a SM Libby, and a Drop Pod.

It could be Interceptors and a SM Terminator Captain.

There isn't a difference here.

the difference is both those units have deep strike and nether is embarked on a transport. Deep strike does not confer to units that don't have it. I could use your logic to deep strike a landraider by putting a termy armor libby inside. As idiotic as that sounds...starting to like the sound of this.

No, you couldn't. Since that's not how the Deep Strike rules work.
Deep Strike doesn't confer - sure. I'm not interested in arguing that.
It's an irrelevant statement, however, as you're required to roll for the Combined Unit.

I dare you to "use [my] logic to deep strike a land raider". Please, explain how that's possible using actual rules quotes.

It's easy...I'll just call it a combined unit. Which is exactly what you guys are doing...explain how it's different?

Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.
So the Land Raider doesn't have Deep Strike and cannot be placed in Deep Strike Reserve.

The Drop Pod does have Deep Strike, and since the Purifiers are embarked, they can be placed in Deep Strike Reserves.
Unless you have a rule saying that only part of the combined unit is in Deep Strike Reserve?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
See my issue is from the Deep Strike special rule. "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units". Since the Purifiers are not Deep Striking (despite being in Deep Strike Reserves), you cannot roll for them, you are rolling for the Pod, and the Purifiers tag along.

Except there's a conflict between that and the Combined Units rule.
And please explain how they are leaving Deep Strike Reserves without Deep Striking?

So if I can add to this rigamaroo, here's the events that I'm seeing:

NSF takes purifiers, SW detachment takes Drop Pod

Purifiers are placed in Drop Pod, creating a combined unit.

Unit is then placed in Deep Strike Reserves with both components of the unit considered to be in DS reserves.

Thanks to the NSF you can roll for the Purifiers to arrive first turn and, because of combined units in reserves rule, a single die is rolled which can come from any component. The relevant line from the combined units rule as quoted earlier in this thread: when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and/or its Independent Character/ Transport vehicle. The and/or part is what essentially states that you can make a roll for any component.

Unit arrives turn one (assuming successful roll) by Deep Strike, and Purifiers disembark and then have the option to run and shoot or shoot and run thanks to the NSF.

As for the arguments against, I feel like it all comes back to the combined units rule. This specifically allows you to make a single dice roll for any component of the unit and then the entire unit arrives at the same time. I simply don't see how this rule would not work in that fashion for several reasons:

While it's true that combined units don't roll for individual components separately, their rules for rolling are dictated by the options that they have within those components. So in this case you're making a roll for the embarked unit, the purifiers, who have the option to roll on turn one and then the whole unit arrives.

By virtue of the transport in DS rule, the purifiers are considered to be in DS reserves, which triggers the benefits of the NSF detachment allowing them to roll on turn one while also running and shooting the turn they arrive from reserves.

My biggest problem with the arguments against however, is that there always seems to come a certain point where there's a small leap between rules to try to draw a line connecting them. The biggest one I see is this idea that no unit from another detachment can ever draw a benefit from the NSF. I don't see a rule that forbids that unit from arriving first turn nor a rule that invalidates the Purifier's ability to roll for reserves on turn one, and yet I consistently see people making it sound like you're trying to give NSF benefits to the drop pod. The drop pod does not switch detachments, but it also does not preclude the purifiers from rolling for reserves on turn one. Thanks to the combined units roll they would arrive together. The drop pod never gains Rites of Teleportation, it just comes along for the ride.

 Xenomancers wrote:

So since your reserve roll goes for the unit that is placed on the table (the pod) this trumps all other special deep strike rules that effect the units placed inside the pod? Am I following you correctly?

What are you agreeing with in regards to a strike squad in a drop pod? I'm confused about you saying you agree and then you say that the reserves roll must be made for the pod not the unit inside. Please clarify.

Could this argument also be used to settle the debate about LoTD in a drop pod - they will not get to reroll the scatter (if they are actually allowed to be placed in a pod in the first place?)

Sorry if i confused you, but Nos described it clearly:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What theyre stating is that you *cannot* claim to be rolling solely for the Purifiers, as you *cannot* comply with the requisite rules if you do so - you *cannot* BOTH place a model from the unit that is arriving (the purifier unit) AND have them disembark from the Drop Pod *after* te drop pod lands.

What settles LatD in a pod is that a unit inside a pod isnt themselves deepstirking; they are coming from DS reserves, but not DS, meaning you would break their rule.

Similarly here there is only one way to comply with all the rules in play. You roll for the pod.

Mainly agreeing with this, here:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If Allied Battle Brothers did not allow for a non-Faction unit to embark on a non-dedicated Drop Pod, this situation would not exist. Before the new SW codex introduced non-dedicated Drop Pods, this situation did not exist. If Rites of Teleportation had more restrictive language, this situation would not exist. If Drop Pod Assault required a Turn 2 or later arrival of the half that did not arrive Turn 1, again this situation would not exist. However, GW wrote these rules, and has even indirectly shown approval by not only not making changes via Errata or FAQ, but by using more restrictive language in the recent BA codex that does not allow many of their special rules to benefit non-BA models in Combined Units.

SJ

However,

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
No, you are attempting a false equivalency to disprove a point. When making the roll, the roll is for the entire Combind Unit (RAW), which must arrive together (RAW), with the passengers embarked (RAW), and following the placement process for the Vehicle (RAW). It is false logic to imply the passengers arriving first if the player legally exercises their option to roll to arrive for one of the units in the Combined Unit over any other, as granted per the "And/Or" verbiage (RAW). Additionally, the criteria required to gain the benefits of Rites of Teleportation are met due the rules for Allying, Battle Brothers, Deep Strike (aka, Deep Strike Reserves), Transports, Combined Units, Command Benefits, and Drop Pod Assault.

SJ

I can understand the method here: you are rolling for the combined Unit (which contains a Unit from NSF) and that combined Unit is arriving per the 'standard' rules.
However my participation here was simply to disprove the assertions that:

siege2142 wrote:
You aren't rolling for the drop pod, you are rolling for the purifiers, because you are specifically allowed to just roll for them in a combined unit.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Per the rules as written, a unit cannot confer it's Deep Strike USR on to it's Transport, however, a Transport with the Deep Strike USR does confer it's Deep Strike USR to it's passengers.

Which were both incorrect statements.

Lastly, this statement would make it clear for me that the rules (or Formation benefits) of a Unit embarked upon a Transport should not be taken account for the roll of the combined Unit:

 Xenomancers wrote:
the difference is both those units have deep strike and nether is embarked on a transport. Deep strike does not confer to units that don't have it. I could use your logic to deep strike a landraider by putting a termy armor libby inside. As idiotic as that sounds...starting to like the sound of this.

 Happyjew wrote:
See my issue is from the Deep Strike special rule. "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units". Since the Purifiers are not Deep Striking (despite being in Deep Strike Reserves), you cannot roll for them, you are rolling for the Pod, and the Purifiers tag along.

The rule for Deep Strike specifically says that Deep Strike and Deep Strike Reserves are interchangeable. Therefore, if something is in Deep Strike Reserves, it's considered to be Deep Striking.

 Happyjew wrote:
See my issue is from the Deep Strike special rule. "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units". Since the Purifiers are not Deep Striking (despite being in Deep Strike Reserves), you cannot roll for them, you are rolling for the Pod, and the Purifiers tag along.

Problem with that one, Happyjew, is that technically they are Deep Striking, just not allowed to arrive "by Deep Strike" (As from our conclusions HERE).
So "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units" would cover the Pod and its occupants (who are arriving by disembarking)

rigeld2 wrote:
Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.

I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.

But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.

confoo22 wrote:
The drop pod does not switch detachments, but it also does not preclude the purifiers from rolling for reserves on turn one. Thanks to the combined units roll they would arrive together. The drop pod never gains Rites of Teleportation, it just comes along for the ride.

The problem is that the Drop Pod can't just come along for the ride.

It does not have permission to come in T1. The purifiers do, but they can't deepstrike without the pod. The pod can deepstrike but it's not allowed to come in T1 because it's not a part of the NSF formation. The paragraph under "reserves" that talks about combined units does not give express or implied permission to allow passenger's special rules for deployment to apply to their transport - especially if it is not a dedicated transport. Those permissions are all found under the specific special rules and the RoT special rule mentions no such permission. In fact, the RoT special rule specifically says that it applies to units in the NSF detachment.

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.

I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.

But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.

I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.

I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.

But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.

I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?

Because of the combined units rule.
The Purifiers are unarguably in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore the NSF rule kicks in. Since the Combined Unit rule allows you to roll once for the entire combined unit (transports explicitly allowed), the transport benefits.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.

I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.

But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.

I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?

I think the term "Combined Reserve Unit" is misleading, they no way form a unit with their Transport.
But it's not the only gun emplacement..er...I mean misleading term used in the book.

 NightHowler wrote:

confoo22 wrote:
The drop pod does not switch detachments, but it also does not preclude the purifiers from rolling for reserves on turn one. Thanks to the combined units roll they would arrive together. The drop pod never gains Rites of Teleportation, it just comes along for the ride.

The problem is that the Drop Pod can't just come along for the ride.

It does not have permission to come in T1. The purifiers do, but they can't deepstrike without the pod. The pod can deepstrike but it's not allowed to come in T1 because it's not a part of the NSF formation. The paragraph under "reserves" that talks about combined units does not give express or implied permission to allow passenger's special rules for deployment to apply to their transport - especially if it is not a dedicated transport. Those permissions are all found under the specific special rules and the RoT special rule mentions no such permission. In fact, the RoT special rule specifically says that it applies to units in the NSF detachment.

It doesn't need to give expressed permission, that part is already handled by the combined units reserve roll. In this case it would need to deny the rule, which it doesn't. And I'm not denying that RoT applies only to units from the NSF detachment, in fact, I'm counting on it. What you're trying to say, and again, this is the leap I'm talking about, is that since the Drop Pod is not from the NSF there's no way it could arrive turn one except by DP assault rule. Except there's no rule denying that.

Again, here's the series of events:

Purifiers and DP are both placed in DS reserves with the purifiers in DP as the transport. Purifiers roll on turn one for RoT since they are in DS reserves. As per the reserves rule both purifiers and DP arrive at the same time since they are a combined unit and the DP is their transport.

Let me also be clear on this since the rules are clear: When a unit is placed in a transport that is deep striking and then placed in reserves, both units are considered to be in Deep Strike Reserves. it doesn't matter that Purifiers don't have the Deep Strike special rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.

I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.

But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.

I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?

Because of the combined units rule.
The Purifiers are unarguably in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore the NSF rule kicks in. Since the Combined Unit rule allows you to roll once for the entire combined unit (transports explicitly allowed), the transport benefits.

I think I get this. And it only applies for pods?
If you were Deep Striking a Valkyrie, which does not place its passengers in Deep Strike Reserves, then the combined Unit could not make use of the NSF rule since the Purifiers are not in Deep Strike Reserves?

Right. But it does matter that the vehicle by which they arrive from reserves is not a part of the NSF detachment.

 NightHowler wrote:
Right. But it does matter that the vehicle by which they arrive from reserves is not a part of the NSF detachment.

How exactly? I've demonstrated how they would arrive by turn one anyways thanks to the purifiers being in DS reserves and the combined units reserve rule. The drop pod not being in the detachment doesn't mean anything, it's still the transport for the purifiers so it arrives at the same time. You have yet to disprove this other than saying that it's not part of the NSF even though I've demonstrated why that's not necessary in this case.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.

I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.

But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.

I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?

Because of the combined units rule.
The Purifiers are unarguably in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore the NSF rule kicks in. Since the Combined Unit rule allows you to roll once for the entire combined unit (transports explicitly allowed), the transport benefits.

I think I get this. And it only applies for pods?
If you were Deep Striking a Valkyrie, which does not place its passengers in Deep Strike Reserves, then the combined Unit could not make use of the NSF rule since the Purifiers are not in Deep Strike Reserves?

Since you can't Deep Strike a Valkyrie, the point is moot.
I can't think of any other transports that can Deep Strike anymore... not that I'm 100% familiar with the rules on anyway.

This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.

"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"

So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.

I say no, if my Legion of the Damned can't ride in a drop pod then the grey Knights can't get RoT for the drop pods

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Just as embarked models don't receive Deep Strike, they don't bestow it either.

I think that's most people's main gripe with this issue. The unit doesn't have Deep Strike, and it's not conferred to them, yet it's their ability that allows the unit to come on earier than they should. In essence, the Drop pod is doing the Deep Striking, not the unit, so why should their ability confer to the entire combined unit, when the Deep Strike rule doesn't. Also if one element of the combined unit has an ability that influences arrival time, why would this extend to the entire combined unit? These seem to people's main issue with this debat from what I can tell.

But the RaW on this subject I won't touch with a pole. When the RAI is so clear, entertaining the RaW possibility is just not worth looking into for me.

I would extend this and say that i fully agree that by RaW, an IC joined to a NSF Unit can get the rules (having the "for all rules purposes" clause), but how can this now be extended to Transports?

Because of the combined units rule.
The Purifiers are unarguably in Deep Strike Reserves. Therefore the NSF rule kicks in. Since the Combined Unit rule allows you to roll once for the entire combined unit (transports explicitly allowed), the transport benefits.

I think I get this. And it only applies for pods?
If you were Deep Striking a Valkyrie, which does not place its passengers in Deep Strike Reserves, then the combined Unit could not make use of the NSF rule since the Purifiers are not in Deep Strike Reserves?

Since you can't Deep Strike a Valkyrie, the point is moot.
I can't think of any other transports that can Deep Strike anymore... not that I'm 100% familiar with the rules on anyway.

Well that's why i used the Valkyrie, as it is the only Transport left with Deep Strike (Forgeworld Books) i can think of, or Dreadclaw (But that's a Pod with weird rules)

 NightHowler wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.

"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"

So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.

A. I don't see how a rule allowing something is somehow suspect because another rule doesn't prevent it from happening. If you think the rule is prevented then you should be able to provide rules citations that prove your point, not point to the lack of them as proof.

B. You don't know the RAI, and you certainly don't know that the word "Teleportation" is meant to be some sort of secret clue that proves your point. That would be like me using my Interceptors to shoot units arriving from reserves and then claiming RAI.

C. If you can't prove your point then drop it and move on instead of making insinuations that someone who disagrees with you is some sort of unwanted element who's ruining the game. Don't be hyperbolic, nobody is quitting over this, it's just a rules discussion on a forum. I'm sorry we disagree, but there's no need to be insulting about it.

 NightHowler wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.

"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"

So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.

When this comes down to RaW or RaI, i do not think (RaI) that GW ever intended for any of the "Faction only" Rules and bonuses to be able to apply to "other" Units(by this I mean IC too).

But this is nowhere to be found in RaW......

 NightHowler wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.

"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"

So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.

Pretty sure fortifications don't allow vehicles to embark into them, just infantry. Stormravens and Thunderhawks do, because they have special rules stating so. This would be another case of a false equivalency.

As to newer players, pretty sure they would have less issues with over-thinking the rules than veteran players do, as they have less edition to edition baggage to haul around. As a long time 40k player, from age 14 to age 42, I too remember when the rules did not allow such combos to occur. However, I am fully aware that this is edition 7, not edition 3.7. To quote the Ice Queen herself, "Let it go!"

SJ

confoo22 wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.

"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"

So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.

A. I don't see how a rule allowing something is somehow suspect because another rule doesn't prevent it from happening. If you think the rule is prevented then you should be able to provide rules citations that prove your point, not point to the lack of them as proof.

B. You don't know the RAI, and you certainly don't know that the word "Teleportation" is meant to be some sort of secret clue that proves your point. That would be like me using my Interceptors to shoot units arriving from reserves and then claiming RAI.

C. If you can't prove your point then drop it and move on instead of making insinuations that someone who disagrees with you is some sort of unwanted element who's ruining the game. Don't be hyperbolic, nobody is quitting over this, it's just a rules discussion on a forum. I'm sorry we disagree, but there's no need to be insulting about it.

The RAI is def not that the purifiers gain deep strike reserve status from a unit outside of it's detachment and confer it's own detachment rules to a unit outside of it's detachment.

 Xenomancers wrote:

confoo22 wrote:

 NightHowler wrote:
This is the kind of thing that makes beginners quit the game and makes veterans cringe.

"I can embark my Emperor Class Titan into my fortification because the rule X says this and rule Y doesn't prevent it"

So it's possibly RAW but it's probably not RAI. This forum is dedicated to RAW, but seeing people argue so vehemently that something is RAW when it is obviously not RAI makes me nauseous. It's called Rites of Teleportation... go have fun, just promise you wont take this and make some newbie quit 40k with it. Don't be TFG.

A. I don't see how a rule allowing something is somehow suspect because another rule doesn't prevent it from happening. If you think the rule is prevented then you should be able to provide rules citations that prove your point, not point to the lack of them as proof.

B. You don't know the RAI, and you certainly don't know that the word "Teleportation" is meant to be some sort of secret clue that proves your point. That would be like me using my Interceptors to shoot units arriving from reserves and then claiming RAI.

C. If you can't prove your point then drop it and move on instead of making insinuations that someone who disagrees with you is some sort of unwanted element who's ruining the game. Don't be hyperbolic, nobody is quitting over this, it's just a rules discussion on a forum. I'm sorry we disagree, but there's no need to be insulting about it.

The RAI is def not that the purifiers gain deep strike reserve status from a unit outside of it's detachment and confer it's own detachment rules to a unit outside of it's detachment.

Cite your evidence. Because it's obviously intended that the Purifiers are put into Deep Strike Reserve if they're embarked in a Deep Striking transport.
And you'll need to show something more than your assumption for the idea that it's not intended for the latter.

Whatever, I don't really care.

It's just a general plea that the players also consider the health of the community when fighting tooth and nail for one minor advantage of such questionable validity.

I've seen RAW arguments that you can deepstrike a fortification, so this thread is clearly not the worst ever, it's just when I go to a tournament and some guy across the table looks me square in the eye and says that he can do something... if he has to go through 6 pages worth of rules lawyering to explain how he does it, he probably shouldn't be doing it.