gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

On the comment of Grav bikes and the comment suggesting they don't generically come with a company master. This is true, but they're often with an HQ option as its mandatory to unlock them.

I think this thread is clearly highlighting one fact. 40k is at its core a broken mess.
We're all standing around pointing, well it's not as OP as that OPness.
I would like to say a lot of Tau players aren't defending the IA tide. We just don't want the riptide in general to become utterly useless.

As for the riptide always having ignores cover, that's plain weird. You're making a huge assumption that the Tau player is actually going to pay the points for units that will die to a stiff wind.
Don't get me wrong they have their uses and most Tau players will have some, but realistically there will be like 2-3 units with them (in numbers that matter).
To get enough lights for the things I'm seeing in this thread you'd need to spend 200-300 points.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

In what universe do they not care about any of those weapons? How do you think my Guard tanks routinely take down Riptides I face?

I don't think that Riptides always ignore cover. But let's say I'm getting cover at 5+++. That's still going to mean my SG or DC are just going to get eviscerated. The ignore cover is really only super juicy with improved ruins or aegis lines. Blasting through all armor and all T4 FNP is quite enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

In what universe do they not care about any of those weapons? How do you think my Guard tanks routinely take down Riptides I face?

I said MARINE firepower. Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide. Yes, I'm aware the Guard can put out enough shots to make the Ritpide pay attention. The Guard also loses less points per pie plate. It's almost like power armor troops are a liability instead of a boon... hmmm. The Riptide is far less efficient vs the IG I'd say.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

IK are just as guilty in many ways, but at least are vulnerable to melta and/or high STR weapons from multiple angles. Yes, this is a pain, but the Riptide is even more durable/pt than a Knight.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

When Draigo gates nearby you get to shoot that lovely IA at his clumped up squad of Centurions. Plus you were shooting at them previously.

And even when they do unload, you are most likely going to survive.



Lets look at a Dreadknight and a Riptide vs some Grav guns. How many shots it takes to statistically kill each of them.

We'll assume both have the maximum invuln save, they have roughly the same chance of being successful. The Riptide also has FnP, because its a nobrainer upgrade.


Dreadknight: Has a 4+ invuln and 4 wounds. That means we need to get an average of 8 wounds to get past its 4+. 8/(5/6)=9.6 hits required. 9.6/(2/3)=14.4 shots to statistically kill a Dreadknight. Round up to 15.


Riptide: 3+ invuln, 5 wounds, and FnP. 5/(2/3)=7.5 unsaved wounds to get past FnP. 7.5/(1/3)=22.5 wounds to get past 3+ invuln. 22.5/(5/6)=27 hits to get past 2+ to wound. 27/(2/3)=40.5 shots to statistically kill a Riptide. Round up to 41.


It takes 2.73 times as many shots to kill a Riptide with Gravguns as it takes to kill a Dreadknight. That extra wound, pip of invuln, and FnP makes a huge difference.

This also is completely disregarding the distance issue. The Dreadknight is moving right into the teeth of the Gravguns. The Riptide at least has the safety of 30-36" of table space at a minimum, only negated if you bring Draigo(but thats not guaranteed either. You won't always get Gate off, nor will your scatter be favorable, and you'll still get Interceptor shots to the face before you get to shoot)

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide.

Six Black Knights, according to my math (if the Riptide doesn't have the reactor shield up or any shield drones, so slightly points-inefficient and not entirely realistic).

Pardon me, but I'm not familiar with a Black Knight.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

In what universe do they not care about any of those weapons? How do you think my Guard tanks routinely take down Riptides I face?

Quit simply...you don't kill them with guard tanks unless it's pask in a punisher. who costs quite a bit more than a riptide and they don't have 3+ invo up and are dumb enough to be within 24 inches anyways! please tell me how you kill riptides with IG. Does he walk into your plasma guns for no real reason?

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

Actually, according to torrent of fire, they are 9th.
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

 Xenomancers wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

In what universe do they not care about any of those weapons? How do you think my Guard tanks routinely take down Riptides I face?

Quit simply...you don't kill them with guard tanks unless it's pask in a punisher. who costs quite a bit more than a riptide and they don't have 3+ invo up and are dumb enough to be within 24 inches anyways! please tell me how you kill riptides with IG. Does he walk into your plasma guns for no real reason?

I can believe IG bring enough raw shots to get it done. Their shooting is much, much more efficient than marines.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide.

Six Black Knights, according to my math (if the Riptide doesn't have the reactor shield up or any shield drones, so slightly points-inefficient and not entirely realistic).

Riptide should have cover at least right?

I really think that people shouldn't focus on how powerful certain things are right now. 40k need more than a year to update itself, and as soon as they finish a year cycle, they need to start another one. Yes riptide are good, but they were OP like a year ago. Now most of the army update are on par with that easily (except Ork, which I think still stinks, even tho I main them and really enjoy fielding them). Some army need they shared of big ugly strong thing, and thats normal. That was decided when Ed7 came out and decide to include LoW, SuperHeavy and a gakload of formation. Don't worry too much, your turn will come.

To go back on the OP, who was asking if Tau could be fun to play against, I would say yea, easily. I'm building a mix army with FW in Devilfish, Crisis suit team jumping around, deep striking stealthsuit, piranha/tetra for fast attack and a couple of broadside as Heavy support. Really on par with a Space Marine player fielding Tac in rhino, Bike squad, Assault marine, suicidal melta pod and vindi/pred supporting fire. I think it's a fair list and if someone is not having fun playing against that, I wonder what type of game they actually like.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide.

Six Black Knights, according to my math (if the Riptide doesn't have the reactor shield up or any shield drones, so slightly points-inefficient and not entirely realistic).

Riptide should have cover at least right?

It's pretty hard for MCs to get cover now, right?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide.

Six Black Knights, according to my math (if the Riptide doesn't have the reactor shield up or any shield drones, so slightly points-inefficient and not entirely realistic).

Riptide should have cover at least right?

Mathed based on the 5+ Inv, if it has a 4+ cover it might be seven Black Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marines can't take enough of those weapons to ever down a Riptide.

Six Black Knights, according to my math (if the Riptide doesn't have the reactor shield up or any shield drones, so slightly points-inefficient and not entirely realistic).

Riptide should have cover at least right?

It's pretty hard for MCs to get cover now, right?

Not the way 7e area terrain works.

We don't usually (ever) play with area terrain. Everything is true LOS and MCs need percentage of physical coverage to get cover. So you're telling me that in your play group, Riptides actually get cover sometimes? I can't imagine what that's like.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

Actually, according to torrent of fire, they are 9th.
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

A quick glance at the right shows you they are the 3rd most winning army. only .5% behind eldar...winning over 55% of games...

Martel732 wrote:
We don't usually (ever) play with area terrain. Everything is true LOS and MCs need percentage of physical coverage to get cover.

I think 25% is still pretty easy to achieve. Especially if you've got proper terrain on the boards.

If my Knight can get cover a Riptide can.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

Actually, according to torrent of fire, they are 9th.
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

A quick glance at the right shows you they are the 3rd most winning army. only .5% behind eldar...winning over 55% of games...

That's the popularity graph, the win% graph is further down.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
We don't usually (ever) play with area terrain. Everything is true LOS and MCs need percentage of physical coverage to get cover.

I think 25% is still pretty easy to achieve. Especially if you've got proper terrain on the boards.

It's too tall to get 25%.. pretty much ever.

Like I said, with proper terrain it definitely can.

We regularly play with terrain that's 6+ inches tall and many times as wide.

Looking at the graph, does anyone want to pimp BA drop pods some more? Also, I can't believe the guard is so bad in a shooting edition. And the GK are so good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Like I said, with proper terrain it definitely can.

We regularly play with terrain that's 6+ inches tall and many times as wide.

I might be able to hide some DC behind that. Which means they don't get shot for a turn by Riptides. Verboten.

pm713 wrote:
It might be that they see Tau and think that its just going to be a game of rolling dice and removing models no matter what they do. Then because they started with this attitude they stay that way throughout the game regardless of what actually happens.

Just my thoughts.

Yups! If you can break your opponents spirit before the game starts, you have most likely won the game.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

Actually, according to torrent of fire, they are 9th.
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

A quick glance at the right shows you they are the 3rd most winning army. only .5% behind eldar...winning over 55% of games...

That's the popularity graph, the win% graph is further down.

that graph is inconsistent with the 55% win rate it shows you on the top right side column. That shows IK, Eldar, follow by tau....maybe that is including tau taken as allies? In any case - it's pretty misleading to have that be on the front page if it's not actually true.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

Statisically it's just as likely to end up with 2 wounds as opposed to one...this is assuming that every grav has hit and wounded.
In reality. its 15 shots - 10 hits - 9 wounds - resulting in 2 wounds dealt. rockets or bolters statistically shouldn't wound once.

Really makes you wonder why tau aren't winning more games in tournaments. Wait! They win more than any other army other than Imperial knights...I'm sure riptides are a big part of this.

Actually, according to torrent of fire, they are 9th.
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6767/graphing-lvo

A quick glance at the right shows you they are the 3rd most winning army. only .5% behind eldar...winning over 55% of games...

That's the popularity graph, the win% graph is further down.

that graph is inconsistent with the 55% win rate it shows you on the top right side column. That shows IK, Eldar, follow by tau....maybe that is including tau taken as allies? In any case - it's pretty misleading to have that be on the front page if it's not actually true.

I just noticed the sidebar. I'm not sure what that is based on, but the graph is based on the LVO.

I hate that graph... it is literally all gravstar, look at % of allied detachments for GK... 100%

In my experience it's always been my opponents fault he loses. They ignore my Markerlights, which for the most part I would rather use to put my BS to 5, then ignore cover if I have tokens left over. Often times I will be mobile keeping units close heading of objectives while my pathfinders call out targets. Broadsides with heavy weapons fire.

and ALWAYS people go straight for my Riptides, Broadsides, Crisis suits and just get gunned down because they ignored my pathfinders aiding these units. If these units where left to fire at BS3(not so much for Broadsides but still) they would not be as much of a threat.

That said, Guard are an extremely snooty army. Has ignores cover coming out the butt, and tons of S6 shooting, access to the rest of the imperium as perfect allies, meaning Librarians, assorted other buff units can just join them and allow them to do crazy things. But it's rarely complained about on the same level as Tau.

Like its been said, Tau where unfortunate to be the first of the powerful armies, and they are stuck with that reputation that seemingly bad players, or stubborn players unwilling to learn the weaknesses of Tau and the ways to play on those weaknesses, not just hitting them with swords, will get Tau nerfed into oblivion when they finally get a new dex, they won't get balanced, they're near it now. They are going to get nerfed to oblivion.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

This ^^ I don't get how people are ALWAYS out of range of the Riptide, based on what some people are saying it sounds like they are on insanely huge tables.

They only need to be more than 24" away to eliminate most marine firepower that matters. Arguably, I'd say ALL firepower, because Ritpides don't care about lascannons, plasma cannons or autocannons.

Most (if not all) competitive marine lists are either:
-Centstars with GoI
-Grav Bikers
-Drop Pods

All lists that have no issue with distance. Has it occured to you that maybe in a comparison of an optimal tactic (Riptide at long range with plenty of Markerlights in range of you) vs. a suboptimal one (Marines at long range with no reliable gap closer), the suboptimal tactic is expected to lose?

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Pozy you are already ignoring the fact the Riptide has an additional wound, possibly FNP, and at least 40 inches between the two units. Whereas the DK is ten inches away and 4 wounds to begin with.

It's only one wound, if the Riptide is left standing with one wound then it isn't going to be of much use for the rest of the game.

At least 40 inches? Umm, not with Draigo and his GoI shenanigans.
Riptides cannot hide anywhere near as far away as you people claim.

When Draigo gates nearby you get to shoot that lovely IA at his clumped up squad of Centurions. Plus you were shooting at them previously.

And even when they do unload, you are most likely going to survive.

You can't intercept Draigo when he uses GoI (intercept triggers at the end of the movement phase, GoI goes off on the psychic phase).

Also, the centstar has the advantage of superior mobility. He can just wait for the round when you don't use or fail nova and then teleport in for the kill. Even if you do shoot him every round, he can just use Draigo (or another attached librarian) to soak it up. I regularly play against a centstar with Draigo and a GK librarian. 2 IA Riptides on their own aren't breaking that in 6 rounds of firing.

NauticalKendall wrote:
or stubborn players unwilling to learn the weaknesses of Tau...

I'm going to link a battle report below, here's how this guy dealt with a Riptide. He just tied it up with outflanking bikes long enough to bring in his dedicated melee HQ to stomp it. Not too complicated.

https://anenglishwargamer.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/the-grim-darkness-is-filled-with-victory/

So, obviously it's not impossible. That's not mentioning abilities like Terrify (28% chance to break a 225pt unit!), debuffs like Blind, whatever else can mess up a Riptide's game at a very low cost.

There is something of a current dogma in 40k that good lists bring as much ranged firepower to the table as possible and nothing else. That will win games and table armies but when it runs into a unit like a Riptide or an army like Decurion, it can fail. Expensive and vulnerable 2+/3+ drop infantry that can't catch one, kill one, or survive an AP2 blast are not going to work, nor is ranged firepower that mostly bounces off it. Flexibility is a principle of war outside 40k, but utility units that don't bring ranged firepower are usually seen as dead weight. I'm not sure you can entirely blame the Riptide for this fact.

Lol. That chart made me laugh so hard just because BA is at the bottom and Martel has been complaining about them.
Fair enough dude.

I still hold a belief they're an excellent army. But it is just my opinion. And I still do genuinely want to help you find a way to win more with them. (I came up with a list the other day).

I saw Schroeder's riptide appear again for comparative purposes.
Can I just point out that an actual riptide would die a lot easier.
I'm not good at math hammer but I'm confident you drop a couple of plasma guns or drive up with some Gravguns it's gonna lose half it's wounds or more. Is everyone trying to one turn it? That is a touch more troublesome.

If I'm honest, keep believing it's infallable, means more freedom for everything else I own.
I also believe in dice sense I.e. You feel negatively, you have bad rolls. This could be a factor.

"Most (if not all) competitive marine lists are either:
-Centstars with GoI
-Grav Bikers
-Drop Pods "

So a unit that door stops everything in meq codices that aren't those things is not OP? Most marine codices can't even field centstars without allies.

Btw I think the reason people hate Tau so much comparatively to every other army is Tau don't need to advance.

They're not foot slogging (or equivalent) across the field shooting with the eventual aim of getting in melee, like every other single army in the game.

People get frustrated with this because it takes longer to achieve the same end result.

Really Tau would move away constantly, as is their combat doctrine.

Yoyoyo wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
or stubborn players unwilling to learn the weaknesses of Tau...

I'm going to link a battle report below, here's how this guy dealt with a Riptide. He just tied it up with outflanking bikes long enough to bring in his dedicated melee HQ to stomp it. Not too complicated.

https://anenglishwargamer.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/the-grim-darkness-is-filled-with-victory/

So, obviously it's not impossible. That's not mentioning abilities like Terrify (28% chance to break a 225pt unit!), debuffs like Blind, whatever else can mess up a Riptide's game at a very low cost.

There is something of a current dogma in 40k that good lists bring as much ranged firepower to the table as possible and nothing else. That will win games and table armies but when it runs into a unit like a Riptide or an army like Decurion, it can fail. Expensive and vulnerable 2+/3+ drop infantry that can't catch one, kill one, or survive an AP2 blast are not going to work, nor is ranged firepower that mostly bounces off it. Flexibility is a principle of war outside 40k, but utility units that don't bring ranged firepower are usually seen as dead weight. I'm not sure you can entirely blame the Riptide for this fact.

Are outflankers allowed to assault? It doesn't come up much for me.

No, outflankers can't assault....

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
or stubborn players unwilling to learn the weaknesses of Tau...

I'm going to link a battle report below, here's how this guy dealt with a Riptide. He just tied it up with outflanking bikes long enough to bring in his dedicated melee HQ to stomp it. Not too complicated.

https://anenglishwargamer.wordpress.com/2015/02/27/the-grim-darkness-is-filled-with-victory/

So, obviously it's not impossible. That's not mentioning abilities like Terrify (28% chance to break a 225pt unit!), debuffs like Blind, whatever else can mess up a Riptide's game at a very low cost.

There is something of a current dogma in 40k that good lists bring as much ranged firepower to the table as possible and nothing else. That will win games and table armies but when it runs into a unit like a Riptide or an army like Decurion, it can fail. Expensive and vulnerable 2+/3+ drop infantry that can't catch one, kill one, or survive an AP2 blast are not going to work, nor is ranged firepower that mostly bounces off it. Flexibility is a principle of war outside 40k, but utility units that don't bring ranged firepower are usually seen as dead weight. I'm not sure you can entirely blame the Riptide for this fact.

Unless something's changed, no.
Are outflankers allowed to assault? It doesn't come up much for me.

So.... in this battlerep, did the Riptide assault the outflanking bikes? Because I don't see how the bikers could tie up the Riptide on the turn they come in. Sounds like the DA player had a cheating phase in there somewhere.

Martel732 wrote:
"Most (if not all) competitive marine lists are either:
-Centstars with GoI
-Grav Bikers
-Drop Pods "

So a unit that door stops everything in meq codices that aren't those things is not OP? Most marine codices can't even field centstars without allies.

The fact that your codex is Battle Brothers with half the armies in the game is an advantage you have, and can use whenever you want.

You can also do Drop Pods quite well without allies too.

You just seem to want to be able to beat a good unit/strategy without using good units/strategies yourself.

Sounds like the riptide was actually tying up the bikers rather than the other way around..

I don't want there to be gold units. That's what causes games to be broken.

I'm not buying an allied detachment to the tune of 100's of dollars. If GW is slowly trying to force me to ally in grav cents, I'm more than willing to drop out of 7th just like I quit playing 6th.

Drop pods look good against Tau (I guess), but gak against a lot of other lists I see fairly often. No one is fooled by the wall of pods, as they have been fighting drop pods since 5th. No one uses a Papa Calgar list where I play, so maybe the UM are just better at it than BA.

NauticalKendall wrote:
Sounds like the riptide was actually tying up the bikers rather than the other way around..

The bikers cost less; and the Riptide isn't optimizing itself in combat against them; even if they were comparatively costed.

 The Shrike wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
Sounds like the riptide was actually tying up the bikers rather than the other way around..

The bikers cost less; and the Riptide isn't optimizing itself in combat against them; even if they were comparatively costed.

I still don't understand why they ended up in HTH.

 The Shrike wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
Sounds like the riptide was actually tying up the bikers rather than the other way around..

The bikers cost less; and the Riptide isn't optimizing itself in combat against them; even if they were comparatively costed.

Riptide easily kills a bike a turn in combat. Not to mention they illegally assaulted him lol.

Not so much deliberately cheating as "hadn't played in 3 years" I think. The guy's not a dedicated 40k player.

But, hey it worked. It's better they can't charge anyway, what do you want, a point and click solution? You can get about 4 units of scout bikes for the cost of a Riptide. I'm sure you can find some way of achieving the same effect through your actions on the table.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Not so much deliberately cheating as "hadn't played in 3 years" I think. The guy's not a dedicated 40k player.

But, hey it worked. It's better they can't charge anyway, what do you want, a point and click solution? You can get about 4 units of scout bikes for the cost of a Riptide. I'm sure you can find some way of achieving the same effect through your actions on the table.

You mean a point and click solution like the Riptide or Centstar? No, BA don't have those. And in a real game, what this guy wouldn't have worked, because his opponent would have cried foul.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:

NauticalKendall wrote:
Sounds like the riptide was actually tying up the bikers rather than the other way around..

The bikers cost less; and the Riptide isn't optimizing itself in combat against them; even if they were comparatively costed.

Riptide easily kills a bike a turn in combat. Not to mention they illegally assaulted him lol.

2/3s of a bike a turn by my calculations.

 koooaei wrote:
You're the first to call orkanaughts cheezy.

Woah Mork or gorkanaughts are better then riptides!?

This is funny to me.

Martel, if you invested as much time into creative tactics as you do bemoaning your army's weakness and local meta, you'd probably be a world champion.

Why not open a tactics thread and ask "how can I kill Riptides as BA"? Don't you have a relic that reduces all Interceptor to snap shot? Don't you have Fast vehicles? Why not try to start piecing the pie differently?

I realize that the Riptide is incredibly inefficient in HTH. That's not up for debate. But those bikers should not have been in HTH with the Riptide, so these calculations are moot.

The one turn delay for assaults from any kind of non-standard deployment options is killer. Literally.

Think yourself lucky it's only the riptide in Tau. I hear Necrons are, as a collective, impossible to kill.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Martel, if you invested as much time into creative tactics as you do bemoaning your army's weakness and local meta, you'd probably be a world champion.

Why not open a tactics thread and ask "how can I kill Riptides as BA"? Don't you have a relic that reduces all Interceptor to snap shot? Don't you have Fast vehicles? Why not try to start piecing the pie differently?

A relic jump pack. Deep striking jump packs is suicide even with the relic. DS jump packs weren't even good in 5th.

Fast vehicles that also can't hurt the Riptide? Fast vehicles that get HPed out trivially by broadsides? THOSE fast vehicles?

The above poster is right. All the "solutions" are in an allied IoM codex. They might as well have rolled the BA into the marine codex and called it a day.

Lol, someone wanna make a "Is the Decurion fun to play against" thread?

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Not so much deliberately cheating as "hadn't played in 3 years" I think. The guy's not a dedicated 40k player.

But, hey it worked. It's better they can't charge anyway, what do you want, a point and click solution? You can get about 4 units of scout bikes for the cost of a Riptide. I'm sure you can find some way of achieving the same effect through your actions on the table.

You mean a point and click solution like the Riptide or Centstar? No, BA don't have those.

Such a thing does not exist...the best unit in the game to kill a riptide is a dreadknight. Thats why you see so much dread knight hate from tau - it's literally the only thing that ever drops their precious riptides and also Imperial knights and wraith knights. Though an imperial knight or a WK should never assault a tide if the tau has any idea how to deploy his army. DK kinda don't care about that. cause in 2 turns their threat range for assault is an astounding 54" which is ALMOST as far as a riptide can shoot you from. lol.

Boniface wrote:
Think yourself lucky it's only the riptide in Tau. I hear Necrons are, as a collective, impossible to kill.

Yeah, maybe the different style of frustration will be novel for a while. I get to keep my models (mostly), but still can't kill enough.

I think the real problem here seems to be that BA are bad.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Not so much deliberately cheating as "hadn't played in 3 years" I think. The guy's not a dedicated 40k player.

But, hey it worked. It's better they can't charge anyway, what do you want, a point and click solution? You can get about 4 units of scout bikes for the cost of a Riptide. I'm sure you can find some way of achieving the same effect through your actions on the table.

You mean a point and click solution like the Riptide or Centstar? No, BA don't have those.

Such a thing does not exist...the best unit in the game to kill a riptide is a dreadknight. Thats why you see so much dread knight hate from tau - it's literally the only thing that ever drops their precious riptides and also Imperial knights and wraith knights. Though an imperial knight or a WK should never assault a tide if the tau has any idea how to deploy his army. DK kinda don't care about that. cause in 2 turns their threat range for assault is an astounding 54" which is ALMOST as far as a riptide can shoot you from. lol.

How is the dreadknight good at killing the Riptide?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think the real problem here seems to be that BA are bad.

But I can still manage to make a mess out of DKs, even if I don't win. Funny that.

Boniface wrote:
Think yourself lucky it's only the riptide in Tau. I hear Necrons are, as a collective, impossible to kill.

IA riptides make warriors disappear. Just as easy as marines. The 20 man blobs make it even easier.

To be honest I think 40k is bad lately.
Let's analyse.
Chaos turn up and are rubbish
DA turn up and are rubbish
Tau turn up and are OP
Eldar turn up and are more OP
Marines Turn up and have new OP guns because of Tau and Eldar
Space wolves turn up with newer OP guns, flyers (which totally doesn't make sense) and a number of other OP things.
Meanwhile IG get a rename and get much of the same.
GW realise IoM should be OP and make them one big army
IoM is too OP
Necrons released to counter by being OPest and unkillable and buffed everything.
Next Tau... Get more OP to count OP everything or nerfed because... Reasons.

Just seems a recipe for BS to me.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Not so much deliberately cheating as "hadn't played in 3 years" I think. The guy's not a dedicated 40k player.

But, hey it worked. It's better they can't charge anyway, what do you want, a point and click solution? You can get about 4 units of scout bikes for the cost of a Riptide. I'm sure you can find some way of achieving the same effect through your actions on the table.

You mean a point and click solution like the Riptide or Centstar? No, BA don't have those.

Such a thing does not exist...the best unit in the game to kill a riptide is a dreadknight. Thats why you see so much dread knight hate from tau - it's literally the only thing that ever drops their precious riptides and also Imperial knights and wraith knights. Though an imperial knight or a WK should never assault a tide if the tau has any idea how to deploy his army. DK kinda don't care about that. cause in 2 turns their threat range for assault is an astounding 54" which is ALMOST as far as a riptide can shoot you from. lol.

How is the dreadknight good at killing the Riptide?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think the real problem here seems to be that BA are bad.

But I can still manage to make a mess out of DKs, even if I don't win. Funny that.

First turn shunt and pray to the emperor. You must be bold to kill the tau. I throw 80% of my army into their face turn 1. Shunting into ruins ofc - whilst laying 3 flame templates on pathfinders - no more marker lights. Then assault whichever riptides are in range next turn. Once it is in CC the job is pretty easy - activate force power and wait for him to fail a 3+ 5+ or even better fail a nova. Works even better if I get into the fray warlord trait so I can place a precision (reroll first turn auto deepstrike) cleansing flame from my libraian to wipe out most his fire warriors on turn 1. Killing tau is what GK are made to do - Deamons though - they wreck. me fancy that.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Think yourself lucky it's only the riptide in Tau. I hear Necrons are, as a collective, impossible to kill.

IA riptides make warriors disappear. Just as easy as marines. The 20 man blobs make it even easier.

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not.

Boniface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Think yourself lucky it's only the riptide in Tau. I hear Necrons are, as a collective, impossible to kill.

IA riptides make warriors disappear. Just as easy as marines. The 20 man blobs make it even easier.

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not.

nah I'm serious - more models makes pie plates easier to land. Str 8 = no FNP. Just kill the spider first - easy money.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Boniface wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Boniface wrote:
Think yourself lucky it's only the riptide in Tau. I hear Necrons are, as a collective, impossible to kill.

IA riptides make warriors disappear. Just as easy as marines. The 20 man blobs make it even easier.

Not sure if this is sarcasm or not.

nah I'm serious - more models makes pie plates easier to land. Str 8 = no FNP. Just kill the spider first - easy money.

but they don't have feel no pain, they have reanimation, which is the same thing, but better because you can't double them out

IA riptides will make warriors disappear, albeit not quite as fast as marines.

With a chronometron cryptek, on the other hand...

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Not so much deliberately cheating as "hadn't played in 3 years" I think. The guy's not a dedicated 40k player.

But, hey it worked. It's better they can't charge anyway, what do you want, a point and click solution? You can get about 4 units of scout bikes for the cost of a Riptide. I'm sure you can find some way of achieving the same effect through your actions on the table.

You mean a point and click solution like the Riptide or Centstar? No, BA don't have those.

Such a thing does not exist...the best unit in the game to kill a riptide is a dreadknight. Thats why you see so much dread knight hate from tau - it's literally the only thing that ever drops their precious riptides and also Imperial knights and wraith knights. Though an imperial knight or a WK should never assault a tide if the tau has any idea how to deploy his army. DK kinda don't care about that. cause in 2 turns their threat range for assault is an astounding 54" which is ALMOST as far as a riptide can shoot you from. lol.

How is the dreadknight good at killing the Riptide?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think the real problem here seems to be that BA are bad.

But I can still manage to make a mess out of DKs, even if I don't win. Funny that.

First turn shunt and pray to the emperor. You must be bold to kill the tau. I throw 80% of my army into their face turn 1. Shunting into ruins ofc - whilst laying 3 flame templates on pathfinders - no more marker lights. Then assault whichever riptides are in range next turn. Once it is in CC the job is pretty easy - activate force power and wait for him to fail a 3+ 5+ or even better fail a nova. Works even better if I get into the fray warlord trait so I can place a precision (reroll first turn auto deepstrike) cleansing flame from my libraian to wipe out most his fire warriors on turn 1. Killing tau is what GK are made to do - Deamons though - they wreck. me fancy that.

So the counter to the mighty Tau is the zerg rush with shunt?

Martel732 wrote:
A relic jump pack. Deep striking jump packs is suicide even with the relic. DS jump packs weren't even good in 5th.

Fast vehicles that also can't hurt the Riptide? Fast vehicles that get HPed out trivially by broadsides? THOSE fast vehicles?

DS is suicide for everyone, not just BA. The idea is always to put out enough hurt that it's worth it.

You have FA Rhinos, one Broadside team will need to kill almost 5x to earn it's points back. You could literally spend the entire game driving over them forcing LD tests until they run off the board. And that's a straight-up troll solution, I'm sure you can think of something better given your experience and judgement, right?

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
A relic jump pack. Deep striking jump packs is suicide even with the relic. DS jump packs weren't even good in 5th.

Fast vehicles that also can't hurt the Riptide? Fast vehicles that get HPed out trivially by broadsides? THOSE fast vehicles?

DS is suicide for everyone, not just BA. The idea is always to put out enough hurt that it's worth it.

You have FA Rhinos, one Broadside team will need to kill almost 5x to earn it's points back. You could literally spend the entire game driving over them forcing LD tests until they run off the board. And that's a straight-up troll solution, I'm sure you can think of something better given your experience and judgement, right?

That's assuming the Tau player put nothing between myself and the broadsides.

I still maintain that suiciding expensive models is not the path to victory. There is certainly nothing in the BA codex that can put the hurt on a Riptide enough to justify the attempt. Maybe combi-plasma sternguard, but I don't use those. The firepower density of marines is just not that good without grav.

You're still thinking firepower. Why? You have two Psychic Powers, one that forces a LD test at -2 and another that gets you 12" of movement in the Psychic Phase. You have a cheap relic that counters Interception. You have Fast Vehicles that can be conferred Scout, T5 Bikes with Jink, an army that's completely oriented towards assault.... and you want to shoot it out against *Tau* of all armies?

How on earth do think you can possibly match them in ranged firepower?

Yoyoyo wrote:
You're still thinking firepower. Why? You have two Psychic Powers, one that forces a LD test at -2 and another that gets you 12" of movement in the Psychic Phase. You have a cheap relic that counters Interception. You have Fast Vehicles that can be conferred Scout, T5 Bikes with Jink, an army that's completely oriented towards assault.... and you want to shoot it out against *Tau* of all armies?

How on earth do think you can possibly match them in ranged firepower?

Because this is a shooting edition and none of the things you mentioned will make it to HTH against Tau if I can't silence at least some of their guns. Firepower density is what allows centstars to be top notch. Not some assault gimmick.

If you use the 12" psychic movement power, you can't assault. So there's that one turn delay again.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think the real problem here seems to be that BA are bad.

Yeah well my CSM don't do very good against riptides either!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think the real problem here seems to be that BA are bad.

Yeah well my CSM don't do very good against riptides either!

I imagine CSM aren't loving Tau, either.

Martel732 wrote:
If you use the 12" psychic movement power, you can't assault. So there's that one turn delay again.

Wasn't thinking assault. It lets you drop out of LOS then get into Plasma RF range.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I think the real problem here seems to be that BA are bad.

Yeah well my CSM don't do very good against riptides either!

I imagine CSM aren't loving Tau, either.

Have you tried footslogging a Khorne Chosen list against a Tau player?

You basically get tabled without killing as much as a single Fire Warrior.

dont worry guys this game is fine

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If you use the 12" psychic movement power, you can't assault. So there's that one turn delay again.

Wasn't thinking assault. It lets you drop out of LOS then get into Plasma RF range.

But it only affects one squad. What BA squad has enough plasma to matter? Only a 300-pt combi-plas Sternguard, which I don't use. Again, firepower density. If I were moving Gravcents into range, it would matter. The fact that I need dozens of AP 2 shots to bring down the Riptide is why I say the base chassis is undercosted. Once you start looking into what a list like BA has to do to even TRY to kill it, it becomes very discouraging. I'm almost forced to ignore it and let it shoot me all game. If there are more than two, they don't need marker light support, they'll just win by rolling enough "hits" over the course of them game.

The worst part is that those that survive still have to hand to hand down multiple Riptides if they can even catch them.

1-2 trilas predators or even razorbacks give broadsides a serious headache.

Focusing 3-4 lascannons on a broadside team forces you to goto ground or risk losing half of the squad.

LordBlades wrote:
1-2 trilas predators or even razorbacks give broadsides a serious headache.

Focusing 3-4 lascannons on a broadside team forces you to goto ground or risk losing half of the squad.

I can do things to Broadsides. They have a 36' range, they are slow, and are T4. I never had anything to say about Broadsides other than they kill AV 11 super good. But while I'm doing those things to broadsides, I'm losing huge chunks of my list.

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
1-2 trilas predators or even razorbacks give broadsides a serious headache.

Focusing 3-4 lascannons on a broadside team forces you to goto ground or risk losing half of the squad.

I can do things to Broadsides. They have a 36' range, they are slow, and are T4. I never had anything to say about Broadsides other than they kill AV 11 super good. But while I'm doing those things to broadsides, I'm losing huge chunks of my list.

If you clear his Broadsides quickly what is he blowing up your transports with?

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
1-2 trilas predators or even razorbacks give broadsides a serious headache.

Focusing 3-4 lascannons on a broadside team forces you to goto ground or risk losing half of the squad.

I can do things to Broadsides. They have a 36' range, they are slow, and are T4. I never had anything to say about Broadsides other than they kill AV 11 super good. But while I'm doing those things to broadsides, I'm losing huge chunks of my list.

If you clear his Broadsides quickly what is he blowing up your transports with?

I understand this in theory, but it never seems to work out like that. It doesn't help that firewarriors can glance out AV 11. If I list tailored three drop fragnoughts with deathwind launchers, I could clear every Tau foot troop, but that's list tailoring.

I don't think a true TAC list is viable these days to be honest.

There are far too many things in the game build as hard counters to each other (seemingly).

For example, you could try and build an army to take on Tau and get stomped by Necrons or Eldar.

I genuinely have tried to make a TAC list with my Tau and always come up short in some area.

Its partially why people end up spamming things that can do everything (or close to it) i.e. waveserpent, Riptide, TWC etc.

To the OP

office_waaagh wrote:
I show up with a monster of an Ork list and everyone is happy even when they get ground into the dirt. I tabled a dude turn 3 and he had a blast. It seems that the orks are always popular when they show up, and despite the possibility for some absolutely killer lists and combos they don't get much hate.

So whats the Ork list you run?

Martel732 wrote:
I understand this in theory, but it never seems to work out like that. It doesn't help that firewarriors can glance out AV 11. If I list tailored three drop fragnoughts with deathwind launchers, I could clear every Tau foot troop, but that's list tailoring.

Fair enough, but keep in mind if you lack the resources to deal efficiently with T3 4+ infantry, your list has probably simply been tailored in another direction.

LordBlades wrote:
1-2 trilas predators or even razorbacks give broadsides a serious headache.

Focusing 3-4 lascannons on a broadside team forces you to goto ground or risk losing half of the squad.

Yeah...those sheild drones aren't getting in the way at all.

 Xenomancers wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
1-2 trilas predators or even razorbacks give broadsides a serious headache.

Focusing 3-4 lascannons on a broadside team forces you to goto ground or risk losing half of the squad.

Yeah...those sheild drones aren't getting in the way at all.

Can they have shield drones AND missile drones?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I understand this in theory, but it never seems to work out like that. It doesn't help that firewarriors can glance out AV 11. If I list tailored three drop fragnoughts with deathwind launchers, I could clear every Tau foot troop, but that's list tailoring.

Fair enough, but keep in mind if you lack the resources to deal efficiently with T3 4+ infantry, your list has probably simply been tailored in another direction.

BA have been known to punch out T3 4+ infantry from time to time. I try to reserve my shooting for things I can't punch out. Despite all the free gear and stats on marines, I still feel like Tau are getting better value/pt spent.

Each Broadside can have up to two drones- Gun, Marker, Missile, Shield. If you are fielding two Broadsides, it could be fun to have a Marker Drone, Missile Drone, and two Shield Drones. They don't cost that much. They add to the unit size though, so be prepared for LD tests when you start losing a couple of them. Just be sure to take the Bonding Knife for the Broadsides.

The Riptide is the "Easy Button" for Tau. The Tau list that scares me is the list with two units of Missile Broadsides.

The Broadside seems like a much more interesting unit with more options and real decisions to be made. Unlike another unit we are discussing. I guess there's the decision of whether to take FNP or not.

 Xenomancers wrote:

LordBlades wrote:
1-2 trilas predators or even razorbacks give broadsides a serious headache.

Focusing 3-4 lascannons on a broadside team forces you to goto ground or risk losing half of the squad.

Yeah...those sheild drones aren't getting in the way at all.

If the Tau codex layer fields shield drones, he's practically spwnding points to make it easier for you.to chase his broadsides off the board via Ld checks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The Broadside seems like a much more interesting unit with more options and real decisions to be made. Unlike another unit we are discussing. I guess there's the decision of whether to take FNP or not.

IMO the only real decision.regarding broadsides is 'how many'

Never mind about the Bonding Knife ritual- it doesn't apply to Drones. Forgot that GW kinda screwed Tau over that way. If they would have just made Drones wargear like in previous editions... oh well.

Still, a LD test on LD 9 isn't that bad. The only reason why players salivate when they see an enemy Broadsides with Drones is to force that LD test. There is entirely too much fearless in 40K, and one of the reasons why I like 30K so much. Suck it, Space Marines!

 Tamwulf wrote:
Never mind about the Bonding Knife ritual- it doesn't apply to Drones. Forgot that GW kinda screwed Tau over that way. If they would have just made Drones wargear like in previous editions... oh well.

Still, a LD test on LD 9 isn't that bad. The only reason why players salivate when they see an enemy Broadsides with Drones is to force that LD test. There is entirely too much fearless in 40K, and one of the reasons why I like 30K so much. Suck it, Space Marines!

possible leadership tests or doubling out expensive units...is it really that hard of a decision?

Not saying that it makes the unit invincible ether, just saying they are kinda an auto take. You really don't want broadsides getting doubled out, they are very expensive - tanking with drones is much cheaper - it works with any kind of drone too cause you are likely in ruins anyways.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Never mind about the Bonding Knife ritual- it doesn't apply to Drones. Forgot that GW kinda screwed Tau over that way. If they would have just made Drones wargear like in previous editions... oh well.

What in the blazes are you talking about? Drones are models, when you lose models you take a leadership test. And about rather losing drones then broadsides, I have had my command squad jump of the board t2 due to losing only 2 drones in my opponents ENTIRE shooting phase. Tau Ld sucks .

IIRC they didn't use to cause leadership tests though, only gun squads.

I think they always caused Ld tests and counted against squad size. At least in the previous codex anyway.

So they do, just me being forgetful, I suppose.

Just on the warrior vs. MEQ thing.

Popular wisdom to the contrary , Necron Warriors and MEQ have about the same durabilty.

More precisely...

outside a Decurion, Necron Warriors and MEQ are exactly as resistant to AP5+, MEQ is more resistant to AP4, and Warriors are more resistant to AP1-3

whereas

inside a Decurion (or with an attached Cryptek), Warriors are more resistant to AP5+, still more vulnerable to AP4, and even more resistant to AP1-3. If a Chronometron is added, nothing changes with AP5+ obviously, while their resistance vs. AP4 becomes a bit greater than MEQ ans vs. AP1-3 even greater.

So...

Warriors and MEQ are actually not far off from each other, with some variation depending on what is shooting at them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Against the IA specifically, Warriors are 1/6 or 1/3 or 1/2 more durable, depending on if they are in a Decurion or not and/or have an attached Cryptek; with an attached Cryptek with a Chronometron they are 33% more durable over that level.

The difference also being that you don't know if you've actually managed to make any casualties at all stick until you've wiped out the entire unit. If your first try to kill Marines fail, you know it straight away and can adjust target priority accordingly. If you kill half a unit's worth of Necrons, they could in fact be alive at the end of your turn.

Schrödinger's warrior in action.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The difference also being that you don't know if you've actually managed to make any casualties at all stick until you've wiped out the entire unit. If your first try to kill Marines fail, you know it straight away and can adjust target priority accordingly. If you kill half a unit's worth of Necrons, they could in fact be alive at the end of your turn.

Schrödinger's warrior in action.

I think you're thinking of the way that Rean Prot used to work. Now it's just a modified version of Feel No Ouchiness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
what the hell I'll show the math

Bolter vs MEQ: 1/2 x 1/3 = 1/6

Heavy Bolter vs MEQ: 2/3 x 1/3 = 2/9

IA vs MEQ: 5/6

--

Straight Necrons, outside Decurion, no Cryptek

Bolter: 1/2 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 1/6 (same as MEQ)

Heavy Bolter: 2/3 x 2/3 x 4/9 (much worse than MEQ)

Ion Accelerator: 5/6 x 5/6 = 25/36 (1/6 better than MEQ)

--

Necrons in Decurion or with Cryptek

Bolter: 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/8 (better than MEQ)

Heavy Bolter: 2/3 x 1/2 = 1/3 (still worse than MEQ)

Ion Accelerator: 5/6 x 2/3 = 5/9 (almost a 50% chance of survival!)

--

Necrons in Decurion with Cryptek

Bolter: the same

Heavy Bolter: 2/3 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 2/9 (finally the same as MEQ!)

Ion Accelerator: 5/6 x 2/3 x 1/2 = 5/18 (holy crap less than a 1/3 chance to kill one)