I'm a little miffed about the banshee change. Most of them are spot on, the unit desperately needed it, but the no-overwatch thing rubs me the wrong way. If only because I have a fundamental disagreement with mechanics that disallow counterplay.

 Leth wrote:
Funnily enough I am extremely happy with 99% of the elder book. After looking at it, it's literally just a few things hat are problems. Really looking forward to seeing the lists the community comes out with

Yeah ditto. This doom and gloom end of the world as we know it attitude is starting to wind me up a little. Having now read most of the book from the leaked pictures I'm a lot more optimistic.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
I'm a little miffed about the banshee change. Most of them are spot on, the unit desperately needed it, but the no-overwatch thing rubs me the wrong way. If only because I have a fundamental disagreement with mechanics that disallow counterplay.

I would have to disagree. The fact that they have to run across the table for at least one turn, or stand just outside of their wave serpent for a turn, is counter enough IMO. If even half the squad dies, and the other half make it into combat, they're likely not going to win even against a regular tactical squad. This is assuming no psychic support (since, you can't reliably get the powers you want anyway). Most any basic squad of troops with 10 models and 20 shots will hurt Banshees a good bit with one turn of shooting.

There are so many candidates for a buff like no overwatch. Wyches come to mind. There's absolutely no reason to start excluding armies from a core rule just because the unit looks like it needs it (there is always a unit out there that needs it more). There are too many exceptions in the core rulebook as it is.

I don't have my rules handy and mostly I play 30k. How many LoWs are you allowed to have in standard 40k? In 30k you are allowed one per primary detachment per 2k points(and you have to hit 2k for the first one) and they cant cost more than 25% of your detachment total. For some reason 40k didn't do the 25% thing and I don't think there is a point restriction.

With the confirmation that the Knight is a LoW, how many multi-knight armies are we going to see running around?

In theory, you can have as many LOW as you have detachments, which is only limited by your points.

In practice, either 1 or 2 depending on the points level and your local environment.

On the other hand, eldar have their own formation in 7th now which allow much more than that. We will have to see how players react.

Col. Dash wrote:
I don't have my rules handy and mostly I play 30k. How many LoWs are you allowed to have in standard 40k? In 30k you are allowed one per primary detachment per 2k points(and you have to hit 2k for the first one) and they cant cost more than 25% of your detachment total. For some reason 40k didn't do the 25% thing and I don't think there is a point restriction.

With the confirmation that the Knight is a LoW, how many multi-knight armies are we going to see running around?

In competitive play not many. They are banned in NOVA, ETC and i think even ITC.

Edit: ITC allows them, but they count 2 extra kill point each (6 wounds).

Col. Dash wrote:
I don't have my rules handy and mostly I play 30k. How many LoWs are you allowed to have in standard 40k? In 30k you are allowed one per primary detachment per 2k points(and you have to hit 2k for the first one) and they cant cost more than 25% of your detachment total. For some reason 40k didn't do the 25% thing and I don't think there is a point restriction.

With the confirmation that the Knight is a LoW, how many multi-knight armies are we going to see running around?

While the Knight is LoW, there is a "Wraith construct" option with the new rules that allows 1-12 Knights, Wraith Lords, or Wraith fighter jets. Though, I think you still have to take a guardian warhost first as it is not a formation on it's own.

My thinking was that you could still only take one LoW in your army. I'm not clear on the rules / restrictions though. I am comparing this to the Harlequin heroes formation including a Solitaire, Shadowseer and Death Jester. The Solitaire is unique so it is my understanding you can't take multiples of this formation, otherwise you'd have multiple unique Solitaires running around.

Wouldn't the same apply here, where you can continue taking additional Wraith formations but only for more Wraithlords and Hemlocks?

Again, I don't know what it says in the rule book for 7th regarding Lords of War so I could be wrong. I only own one Wraithknight and would only really want to use one in a game at or above 2k points anyway for my own fluff reasons, and because they are ~£50 from third party stores.

 Bhazakhain wrote:
My thinking was that you could still only take one LoW in your army. I'm not clear on the rules / restrictions though. I am comparing this to the Harlequin heroes formation including a Solitaire, Shadowseer and Death Jester. The Solitaire is unique so it is my understanding you can't take multiples of this formation, otherwise you'd have multiple unique Solitaires running around.

Wouldn't the same apply here, where you can continue taking additional Wraith formations but only for more Wraithlords and Hemlocks?

Again, I don't know what it says in the rule book for 7th regarding Lords of War so I could be wrong. I only own one Wraithknight and would only really want to use one in a game at or above 2k points anyway for my own fluff reasons, and because they are ~£50 from third party stores.

Except LoW doesn't mean the unit is unique. Knights are not unique. You're also confused. There is the Wraith host, which is 3 wraithguard, 1 lord, 1 knight. Then there is a wraith construct option, that allows 1-12 Lords, Knights, or Wraith fliers. The wraith host, you MUST take all of the models. So even then, you would be taking multiple Knights.

The LoW part would really only apply to CADs, as the warhost options don't even really specify the Knight as a LoW.

Sorry yes, I forgot the name of that formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I'd like to work something out here, partly for the benefit of the community, partly to set it straight in my head. I hope this post doesn't attract too much of the flaming we've seen recently but this thread is quite level headed.

Firstly, I have been an Eldar player since 2nd edition and have always played them. Yes, you could call me a bit of a fan boy but hey, I love the hobby.

I think the new codex is fantastic and I'm really excited about playing with it but the one thing that bothers me a bit is how the new jetbikes will work.

My first thought was 'not one in three?'. My second thought was 'awesome!'. My third thought was 'but wait, that's quite a lot. I love it but it's quite a lot'.

So I want to work out a counter tactic or two for various races for the benefit of opponents. If we take equal points to a full marine tactical squad, we're looking around 140, which is about 6 upgraded bikes. If they have SLs were looking at 24 shots. Against marines that's roughly 4 casualties.

If those marines fired first at maximum range that's about one Eldar casualty. Some people may say this is imbalanced. I say the tactical squad, at least in its basic load out, isn't the answer. A more diverse response is required. I am aware this is a touchy subject so just want to caveat that I am not saying I fully agree with the jetbike change but it is now official in the rules and isn't going away so we need to discuss how to work with it.

Now I don't pretend to know all the units all other races have. I also don't want people to have to custom make a list to counter jetbikes. I want to explore what people can take in a ToC list for a given race to help counter this new threat.

Using marines as an example, clearly Eldar have the advantage of speed / manoeuvrability, range and strength. Therefore a static tactical squad isn't the answer. In this scenario we would need decent AP, the ability to redeploy or 'get in the Eldar's face', ways to get them to jink etc. Basically a way to negate these advantages. Off the top of my head, Land Speeders, multi-shot weapons like heavy bolters, large templates, bikes maybe. Since they are essentially fast moving marines in terms of stats you'd need to force lots of saves and do a few decent AP hits to force jinking.

Apologies for the horrendously long essay of a post. Just wanted to open up the floor to a discussion about solutions as a positive counter to some of the negativity we've seen in other threads / other sites. Who better to start off the process of constructive counter tactics than an Eldar player!

partninja wrote:
I would have to disagree. The fact that they have to run across the table for at least one turn, or stand just outside of their wave serpent for a turn, is counter enough IMO. If even half the squad dies, and the other half make it into combat, they're likely not going to win even against a regular tactical squad. This is assuming no psychic support (since, you can't reliably get the powers you want anyway). Most any basic squad of troops with 10 models and 20 shots will hurt Banshees a good bit with one turn of shooting.

They're already being given a +3" run and assault, effective assault grenades, as well as fear, and iirc the aspect host grants +1 WS. Access to allied Raiders gives them an assault transport. I'd say the unit does just fine without also disallowing overwatch. I agree that they suffer from being shot as they cross the board - which is a weakness of literally any unit going anywhere. Simultaneously making their assaults easier, making the unit killier, and taking away a layer of counterplay from opponents imo is too much of a buff at once. Nor do I consider shooting a unit outside of charge range to be counterplay - I'd d that no matter what unit it was, so what am I countering? Counterplay is screening a heavy weapons team with a 5x flamer command squad to dissuade a charge because of overwatch, or front-fielding 10man bolter squads of Sentinels of Terra marines because their overwatch is twin-linked (TL bolt weapons at 1/2 range). Banshees now circumvent it entirely. If they get within ~9" of a squad, it's probably dead.

Hell, the Sicarian Ruststalkers and Infiltrators both add 3'' to their run and are assault units. Infiltrators debuff normal shooting yet do nothing to overwatch. A selection of rules among armies buffs BS on overwatch, twin-links it, etc. Banshees just invalidated it all. It's playing the game for you. Disembark behind a building to screen from shooting, or turbo boost the serpent in front of the banshees to eat shots to prepare for a next turn assault rather than having the rules essentially take away your enemy's defenses for them. Hell, it could even be a "re-roll successful overwatch hits" and I'd be happier. But it just doesn't allow them.

For clarity, where in the codex does it say that the Wraith Knight is a Lord of War? I have access to a couple of pages, but not all of them. The entry has a fist in the upper left. Is that what designates it as a Lord of War?

DCannon4Life wrote:
For clarity, where in the codex does it say that the Wraith Knight is a Lord of War? I have access to a couple of pages, but not all of them. The entry has a fist in the upper left. Is that what designates it as a Lord of War?

Yes. Just as the skull indicates HQ for Warlocks, meaning you can take "A" warlock as your only HQ in a CAD.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

partninja wrote:
I would have to disagree. The fact that they have to run across the table for at least one turn, or stand just outside of their wave serpent for a turn, is counter enough IMO. If even half the squad dies, and the other half make it into combat, they're likely not going to win even against a regular tactical squad. This is assuming no psychic support (since, you can't reliably get the powers you want anyway). Most any basic squad of troops with 10 models and 20 shots will hurt Banshees a good bit with one turn of shooting.

They're already being given a +3" run and assault, effective assault grenades, as well as fear, and iirc the aspect host grants +1 WS. Access to allied Raiders gives them an assault transport. I'd say the unit does just fine without also disallowing overwatch. I agree that they suffer from being shot as they cross the board - which is a weakness of literally any unit going anywhere. Simultaneously making their assaults easier, making the unit killier, and taking away a layer of counterplay from opponents imo is too much of a buff at once. Nor do I consider shooting a unit outside of charge range to be counterplay - I'd d that no matter what unit it was, so what am I countering? Counterplay is screening a heavy weapons team with a 5x flamer command squad to dissuade a charge because of overwatch, or front-fielding 10man bolter squads of Sentinels of Terra marines because their overwatch is twin-linked (TL bolt weapons at 1/2 range). Banshees now circumvent it entirely. If they get within ~9" of a squad, it's probably dead.

Hell, the Sicarian Ruststalkers and Infiltrators both add 3'' to their run and are assault units. Infiltrators debuff normal shooting yet do nothing to overwatch. A selection of rules among armies buffs BS on overwatch, twin-links it, etc. Banshees just invalidated it all. It's playing the game for you. Disembark behind a building to screen from shooting, or turbo boost the serpent in front of the banshees to eat shots to prepare for a next turn assault rather than having the rules essentially take away your enemy's defenses for them. Hell, it could even be a "re-roll successful overwatch hits" and I'd be happier. But it just doesn't allow them.

Fair points - my only point was that the no overwatch against them isn't that big a deal if they are already footing it across the table. However, I generally don't like to consider allied shenanigans when considering tactics of the unit themselves. If I'm going to ally for a raider, I wouldn't even bother with Banshees at all and use something else (web way portal + other OP unit) completely.

Then kindly see my reference to fielding them in Serpents. Advance the Serpent, disembark, flat out / boost serpent in front of the Banshees to screen them from shots. Or disembark behind terrain (preferably LoS blocking). Very few 10 man CC squads see success footslogging.

Mind, I don't agree they needed buffs, I just have a personal disdain for removing gameplay.

From hence forth, any elder player caught fielding any of the following units shall be forever referred to as N00b.

Wraithknight
Hornets
Wraith guard
D-cannons.

Lots of love,

The hive mind!

all the people complaining about WK's are being silly...

GW made them a LOW, LOW's are *banned* in GW tournaments...

this is GW taking something OP *off the table*


most tournaments limit LOW in some way, and most alreayd have rule that would make the WK banned.


not GW's fault our tournaments allow more LOW choices then GW allows at their tournaments.

 easysauce wrote:
all the people complaining about WK's are being silly...

GW made them a LOW, LOW's are *banned* in GW tournaments...

this is GW taking something OP *off the table*


most tournaments limit LOW in some way, and most alreayd have rule that would make the WK banned.


not GW's fault our tournaments allow more LOW choices then GW allows at their tournaments.

GW don't ban anything. Examples?

Throne of skulls allows ANYTHING.

 Wilson wrote:
From hence forth, any elder player caught fielding any of the following units shall be forever referred to as N00b.

Wraithknight
Hornets
Wraith guard
D-cannons.

Lots of love,

The hive mind!

Please dub me, "NOOb, the First of His Name".

Cheers!

DCannon4Life wrote:

 Wilson wrote:
From hence forth, any elder player caught fielding any of the following units shall be forever referred to as N00b.

Wraithknight
Hornets
Wraith guard
D-cannons.

Lots of love,

The hive mind!

Please dub me, "NOOb, the First of His Name".

Cheers!

I dub thee, master N00b, the first.

So I may never again field the Wraithguard (with cannons) my now-fiance got me for my birthday?

You can, just dont run 30 of them and 40 bikes lol.

Use all the units but like alcohol, in moderation. Its probably the best way to build a list anyway/most fun

This was my list at last year's Renegade Open. I imagine I'll still be running large parts of it.

 Wilson wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
all the people complaining about WK's are being silly...

GW made them a LOW, LOW's are *banned* in GW tournaments...

this is GW taking something OP *off the table*


most tournaments limit LOW in some way, and most alreayd have rule that would make the WK banned.


not GW's fault our tournaments allow more LOW choices then GW allows at their tournaments.

GW don't ban anything. Examples?

Throne of skulls allows ANYTHING.

*looks it up*
well frick.... last I remembered their events said no low and one CAD... guess its time to take my brain pills

well see if the WK goes the way of other super heavies on the ban list for ITC NOVA and so on then

 Bhazakhain wrote:
Sorry yes, I forgot the name of that formation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I'd like to work something out here, partly for the benefit of the community, partly to set it straight in my head. I hope this post doesn't attract too much of the flaming we've seen recently but this thread is quite level headed.

Firstly, I have been an Eldar player since 2nd edition and have always played them. Yes, you could call me a bit of a fan boy but hey, I love the hobby.

I think the new codex is fantastic and I'm really excited about playing with it but the one thing that bothers me a bit is how the new jetbikes will work.

My first thought was 'not one in three?'. My second thought was 'awesome!'. My third thought was 'but wait, that's quite a lot. I love it but it's quite a lot'.

So I want to work out a counter tactic or two for various races for the benefit of opponents. If we take equal points to a full marine tactical squad, we're looking around 140, which is about 6 upgraded bikes. If they have SLs were looking at 24 shots. Against marines that's roughly 4 casualties.

If those marines fired first at maximum range that's about one Eldar casualty. Some people may say this is imbalanced. I say the tactical squad, at least in its basic load out, isn't the answer. A more diverse response is required. I am aware this is a touchy subject so just want to caveat that I am not saying I fully agree with the jetbike change but it is now official in the rules and isn't going away so we need to discuss how to work with it.

Now I don't pretend to know all the units all other races have. I also don't want people to have to custom make a list to counter jetbikes. I want to explore what people can take in a ToC list for a given race to help counter this new threat.

Using marines as an example, clearly Eldar have the advantage of speed / manoeuvrability, range and strength. Therefore a static tactical squad isn't the answer. In this scenario we would need decent AP, the ability to redeploy or 'get in the Eldar's face', ways to get them to jink etc. Basically a way to negate these advantages. Off the top of my head, Land Speeders, multi-shot weapons like heavy bolters, large templates, bikes maybe. Since they are essentially fast moving marines in terms of stats you'd need to force lots of saves and do a few decent AP hits to force jinking.

Apologies for the horrendously long essay of a post. Just wanted to open up the floor to a discussion about solutions as a positive counter to some of the negativity we've seen in other threads / other sites. Who better to start off the process of constructive counter tactics than an Eldar player!

That would all be fine if jetbikes weren't troops, but they are.

I've already mathhammered out the details between marines and jetbikes with scatter lasers, and marines win if they get into a their rapid fire range and get to stay there, which we all know is impossible.

At max range, the jetbikes kill about .35 pts of marines per point of jetbike.

At 12" range, the marines kill about .5 pts of jetbikes per point of marine.

At 24" range, the marines deal about .25 pts of kills.

The problem here is of course that jetbikes have a 36" range, can move 12" before shooting and ~7" after shooting, and optionally turbo boost 36" if they don't shoot.

The marines can move 6".

The aforementioned mobility in addition to the fact that jetbikes are S6 makes them more useful across the whole gamut, like killing MCs, killing AV 12 and below, and of course nabbing objectives.

There's really no troop to compare them to. A lot of people are doomsaying about str D and the new superheavy WK but the real problem is absolutely the new jetbikes. They are good with their default weapons, but just completely without compare when you can give them all scatter lasers.

That's not counting the possible Buffs from the Warlock. Who comes stock with Conceal and then rolls on the Battle Runes chart.

What do you guys think of Vypers? If you run the Craftworld Warhost, you have to take 1 unit. Now that they are cheaper, they seem reasonable. I'm thinking 3-5 with dual cannons?

I want to see 3 units of wraith gaurd in serpeants infaltrate with Master of ambush.

go first
serpeants move 6
guard get out 6

That's put them 6 inches from the enemy. For 15 SD shots first turn.

Do wraith gaurd get to run then shoot ? If so that's better threat range.

Actually it's

Master of Ambush

Move 6" Forward for Scout
Move 6" forward for normal movement
Move 6" auto run
Fire.

The tournament winning armies are just going to be

CAD
Farseer
Autarch

Jetbikes
Jetbikes
Jetbikes


LOW
WraithKnight

Formation Crimson Hunter formation cause it's broken.

My favorite eldar unit is the wraithguard. Last edition I was a powergamer because I had wave serpents with wraithguards in them. Now I am a power gamer because I have wraithguard in wave serpents. I love the WK model, it's what finally made me stop playing sisters of battle, and now I can only have 1 of them. I rather them be ok/good but not awsome, so I can have 3 of them and not be called a power gamer because I want to have the most fething awsomest looking army (to me) in the game. Sorry for the swearing.

Now, if anyone is wondering why bikes are so OP, the answer is simple. GW made new models, they added a gun that was not available on the old bikes, then they made them so OP that everyone who wants to have the best list will run out to buy them, and nerf the wave serpent so that people wont be using guardians/DA as troops. Again making people run out to buy new troops. I used to have wraithguard as troops, I now have to go out and buy new troops if I want to play Eldar, and I am going to buy the new bikes because they look pretty sweet. GW wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, I tried to make a list with two wraithknights and you need 2k points if you want to do it, at least if you want serpents to put your guards in, troops, a 120points farseer on bike and you want guns on your wraithlord.

 Acidian wrote:
My favorite eldar unit is the wraithguard. Last edition I was a powergamer because I had wave serpents with wraithguards in them. Now I am a power gamer because I have wraithguard in wave serpents. I love the WK model, it's what finally made me stop playing sisters of battle, and now I can only have 1 of them. I rather them be ok/good but not awsome, so I can have 3 of them and not be called a power gamer because I want to have the most fething awsomest looking army (to me) in the game. Sorry for the swearing.

Now, if anyone is wondering why bikes are so OP, the answer is simple. GW made new models, they added a gun that was not available on the old bikes, then they made them so OP that everyone who wants to have the best list will run out to buy them, and nerf the wave serpent so that people wont be using guardians/DA as troops. Again making people run out to buy new troops. I used to have wraithguard as troops, I now have to go out and buy new troops if I want to play Eldar, and I am going to buy the new bikes because they look pretty sweet. GW wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, I tried to make a list with two wraithknights and you need 2k points if you want to do it, at least if you want serpents to put your guards in, troops, a 120points farseer on bike and you want guns on your wraithlord.

Actually if you just want 2 wraithknights you take the either the windrider host or the guardian battle host with 2 wraith construct auxiliary that minimum squad and no upgrades come out to 953 and 1090 points respectively which leaves 400-500 points of upgrades in a 1500 pt game. That is the min/max way to get WK's and lose friends.

Edit: posted in wrong place.

Wraithguard can still get battle focus now that the supplement is dead?

You can do a almost pure Iyanden army with a formation if that's what you are worried bout.

partninja wrote:
Wraithguard can still get battle focus now that the supplement is dead?

Wraith guard can't get battle focus as far as I'm aware at the moment. There is no mention in their entry, and there is also no mention in the spiritseer. It seems they have lost it. But with the improved power to the distort weapons I'm not at all surprised. It's a minor consolation at least for the haters out there.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

partninja wrote:
Wraithguard can still get battle focus now that the supplement is dead?

Wraith guard can't get battle focus as far as I'm aware at the moment. There is no mention in their entry, and there is also no mention in the spiritseer. It seems they have lost it. But with the improved power to the distort weapons I'm not at all surprised. It's a minor consolation at least for the haters out there.

Not quite. From the Codex:

Wraith Host Formation:
Special rules: Battle Focus

OK, I missed that....thats my bad. Wow. So, a wraith host formation within a warlock gains battle focus, and gets a 6" run EVERY time....

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
OK, I missed that....thats my bad. Wow. So, a wraith host formation within a warlock gains battle focus, and gets a 6" run EVERY time....

The whole formation gets it all the time, they don't have to be close to a warlock/spiritseer.

That was supposed to say 'within a war host'. Auto correct strikes again!

Yea thats brutal.

Eeesh that means they can actually get into template range T1 if they really wanted to. Serpent moves 6" + 6" disembark + 6" battle focus + 8" template = 26"

Here's a question.

The warp spiders have a rule called 'flickerjunp' it says when they are selected as a target from a shooting attack they may make a 2D6 Jump....

.... It doesn't say it's restricted to once.... What happens if they're targeted three or four times. Can they make 3 or 4 jumps?

I agree that the new jetbikes are an issue. I just think that there must be another way to beat them for our opponents. Rather than someone using troops to kill jetbikes (also troops), surely there are other units in other areas of the force org that could do a better job?

I agree that it's very tough to get within 12" for marines' rapid fire but I would never say impossible. However, knowing it's tough means you need to either find a way of making sure you get there, no matter how tough (in true marines fashion), or use other units. S6 is useless against AV13+. Anti troop Predators and a Land Raider could do well here. Any JSJ troops would also be beneficial.

A potential tactic that comes to mind is an artillery unit hiding out of LoS, shooting and blowing chunks out of the Eldar or forcing them to jink and forcing them to move to take the threat out. When they do move, that's when the previously mentioned troops get involved and attack, protecting, in this case, the Whirlwind or Typhoon Land Speeders.

As I said, I'm an Eldar player but just wanna see possible alternatives out there for our opponents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Here's a question.

The warp spiders have a rule called 'flickerjunp' it says when they are selected as a target from a shooting attack they may make a 2D6 Jump....

.... It doesn't say it's restricted to once.... What happens if they're targeted three or four times. Can they make 3 or 4 jumps?

I think it's just the once and they can't jump in their following turn.

Yeah, I'd imagine that is the RAI. But it's not the RAW. The raw States when the unit is selected as a target, with no limit on how many times. It doesn't say the first time the unit is selected, or once per shooting phase when the unit is selected, just when the unit is selected. I'd argue that RAW you can make a jump every time you're selected. It's clear you don't get to use your warp jump next turn.

 koooaei wrote:
You forgot battlefocus.

Battlefocus doesn't affect biker units. Turbo-boosting is not a run. If you can't make a run, you can't also run then shoot.

They only have the rule because "it's fluffy" or something.

This could change with the new book; I'm just going off the 6E Eldar book for this statement.

@Hollismason: We do know that, though. The leak came from this week's upcoming White Dwarf, which go to print before they are available to the public.

edit: Holy crap, I responded to something from page 1 without realize there's 12 pages. Sorry if this has already been brought up if that's the case.

I find it confusing that some people refer to units that can run 6" (a formation bonus), and then shoot. How come? Don't you either Run or Shoot?

 SarisKhan wrote:
I find it confusing that some people refer to units that can run 6" (a formation bonus), and then shoot. How come? Don't you either Run or Shoot?

Eldar run and shoot better than you.

 SarisKhan wrote:
I find it confusing that some people refer to units that can run 6" (a formation bonus), and then shoot. How come? Don't you either Run or Shoot?

Starting with the previous book, Most Eldar units got a special rule called "battle focus". This allowed you to shoot, then still run, or make a run move, and still shoot. Almost like being a jet pack unit. You have to make the whole run-shoot or shoot-run fully per unit one at a time. So you can't run everyone, then decide who to shoot based on another unit's shooting success/fail.

Best explanation for Battle Focus I've seen is this: Although irrelevant to bikes (bikes can't run), a character with the Battle Focus special rule (not on a bike) is only allowed to use that rule if every model in the unit has Battle Focus. Taking Battle Focus away from bikes would mean that (for example) an attached Eldrad would lose Battle Focus. Yes?

That explains why Bikes have it, but Reapers don't. Even if they had it, the whole unit can't run. Still bothers me that Reapers don't have it for fluff purposes, though.

I have never understood why bikes have it. Fluff or no fluff it's confusing to give a unit a rule it can never ever make use of. And if they can't ever make use of it, why bother giving it to them.

Eh, so that's the way Battle Focus works.

Hollismason wrote:

Formation Crimson Hunter formation cause it's broken.

Why???

 whembly wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

Formation Crimson Hunter formation cause it's broken.

Why???

It's pretty brutal man. You get three fliers for 440 that each put out 4 s8 ap 2 shots, reroll armor pen on other fliers and have an automatic 4+ cover save without jinking, which becomes rerollable if you do jink. All on a vector dancer. I don't mind it because it hard counters flyrants, which I am so tired of seeing spammed.

 Bhazakhain wrote:
I agree that the new jetbikes are an issue. I just think that there must be another way to beat them for our opponents. Rather than someone using troops to kill jetbikes (also troops), surely there are other units in other areas of the force org that could do a better job?

I agree that it's very tough to get within 12" for marines' rapid fire but I would never say impossible. However, knowing it's tough means you need to either find a way of making sure you get there, no matter how tough (in true marines fashion), or use other units. S6 is useless against AV13+. Anti troop Predators and a Land Raider could do well here. Any JSJ troops would also be beneficial.

A potential tactic that comes to mind is an artillery unit hiding out of LoS, shooting and blowing chunks out of the Eldar or forcing them to jink and forcing them to move to take the threat out. When they do move, that's when the previously mentioned troops get involved and attack, protecting, in this case, the Whirlwind or Typhoon Land Speeders.

As I said, I'm an Eldar player but just wanna see possible alternatives out there for our opponents.

I don't agree that everyone's troops should be so horribly outmatched by the new jetbikes, but even if there was a silver bullet somewhere in the form of e.g. av13+, the opportunity cost for eldar to splash some hard anti-tank, anti-MC counters is very, very low, with all of the str D weapons available in their new codex.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

Formation Crimson Hunter formation cause it's broken.

Why???

It's pretty brutal man. You get three fliers for 440 that each put out 4 s8 ap 2 shots, reroll armor pen on other fliers and have an automatic 4+ cover save without jinking, which becomes rerollable if you do jink. All on a vector dancer. I don't mind it because it hard counters flyrants, which I am so tired of seeing spammed.

And this I wouldn't mind, if we had another viable option aside from a core of 3 flyrants.

 koooaei wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
I find it confusing that some people refer to units that can run 6" (a formation bonus), and then shoot. How come? Don't you either Run or Shoot?

Eldar run and shoot better than you.

I think this is the answer to every question in this thread.

 gigasnail wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

Formation Crimson Hunter formation cause it's broken.

Why???

It's pretty brutal man. You get three fliers for 440 that each put out 4 s8 ap 2 shots, reroll armor pen on other fliers and have an automatic 4+ cover save without jinking, which becomes rerollable if you do jink. All on a vector dancer. I don't mind it because it hard counters flyrants, which I am so tired of seeing spammed.

And this I wouldn't mind, if we had another viable option aside from a core of 3 flyrants.

Tyranids have many viable builds besides spamming flyrants. Honestly the only reason it is so popular is because its the laziest of the viable builds. It's usually ~15 models. I have no sympathy for that garbage 3 flyrant + 3 mucclid detachment thats been popular for the last few months. A dakka flyrant is the same as 4 scatbikes + a warlock that have undeniable invisibility on them all the time.

Hopefully the ITC format will tone down the Wraithknight a bit. I can see a few reasons.

The ban on Ranged D.

With the Secondary Mission Maelstrom being equal in points to the Primary Mission, the extra Maelstrom point for every 3 Hull Points/Wounds dealt to the Super Heavy/Gargantuan Creature LoW is a silver lining.

viable options yes, actualy competitive option on the level of the true op stuff out there, like, I dont know 40 str6 shot with long range, high maneuverability and decently tough for 270pts.
Nope, only flyrant spam comes close to this and frankly, isnt anywhere near as op as this. nowhere near it.

if this is true that the jetbikes can do this (while beeing OS troops no less) then I basicly want to slap GW in the face.
I can't download the codex till tommorow so im still crossing my fingers that its a rumor

 fartherthanfar wrote:
viable options yes, actualy competitive option on the level of the true op stuff out there, like, I dont know 40 str6 shot with long range, high maneuverability and decently tough for 270pts.
Nope, only flyrant spam comes close to this and frankly, isnt anywhere near as op as this. nowhere near it.

if this is true that the jetbikes can do this (while beeing OS troops no less) then I basicly want to slap GW in the face.
I can't download the codex till tommorow so im still crossing my fingers that its a rumor

Really? Mawlocs and spod devil gaunts are two painfully obvious counters. They both are good in other matchups as well.

They also generally run 3 flyrants.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
viable options yes, actualy competitive option on the level of the true op stuff out there, like, I dont know 40 str6 shot with long range, high maneuverability and decently tough for 270pts.
Nope, only flyrant spam comes close to this and frankly, isnt anywhere near as op as this. nowhere near it.

if this is true that the jetbikes can do this (while beeing OS troops no less) then I basicly want to slap GW in the face.
I can't download the codex till tommorow so im still crossing my fingers that its a rumor

I've seen the book. It's really not a rumour.

its funny because I already thought that the warwalker which allowed 24 str6 shot out of one unit to be a bit op (this is already twice as many as a dakka flyrant can do)

now they are allowing 40 str6 shot out of one unit? from a troop choice no less!!??

you know, I've really impressed with the general balance in the codex that games workshop pulled out in the past while, I was hopping that they wuld use this new Eldar codex to bring them back into line with the current general power level since they were a bit too strong.
instead they choose to make them more OP.

thats lovely.
just.... awesome....

new houserules, here we come.

Have you heard of Dakkafexes? It's hard to compare them due to being a walker vs a MC but still.

Pretty sure you can get turn 1 charges off with Banshees if you ally in Raiders.

6" move, 6" Deploy , Max 15" , 27 Total Possible move Average 2D6 is 8 + 3 is 11" .

So you'd need to roll above average.

Oh the tears are so delicious...

People need to get a grip. Jetbikes are still jetbikes. They are T4 with 3+ armor. Reapers will eat bikes for breakfast, probably a squad per turn easy.

Wraithknight are killed the exact same way as before except poison. You mass fire plasma, lascannon, missiles, lances, fleshbane.

Also to get 40 Shots out of a troop unit needs:
a) a Rather large footprint to move 10 bikes around
b) 270 points which can easily get eaten by a 200 point squad of Reapers in a single turn.

Yes Wraithguard with D-Scythes are powerful but what 6 inch range? They will wipe (for sure) 1 unit and die horribly like they usually do to mass AP3/AP2

Even funnier, put a Banshee mask on an Autarch, put him in a squad of Scorpions and charge the Wraithguard. Lock em in combat, mop the floor with them. Banshee mask denies Overwatch so no wall of death.

Mass poison from DE will still put down WG easy.

Does the new codex have strong units? Sure, so did Necrons.
Are the strong units as strong as people make them to be? Not by a long shot. Give it two months and the complaints.

^^ So the best counter to eldar units it's other eldar units

Shouldn't that be a red flag ?

Always hated Eldar, now it's just worse. Good read of a thread for a guy jumping back in though. I ran the numbers of Eldar firepower vs. any of my lists and I think my counter to Eldar will be going all reserve Turn 1 , oops I lost, GG next opponent please...

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
^^ So the best counter to eldar units it's other eldar units

Shouldn't that be a red flag ?

I go with what I know. I play Space Wolves and Eldar. With Space Wolves I would probably use some large blasts from Whirlwind, Relic Whirlwind, Stormfangs to try wipe some bikes off the map. If the bikes jink all the time they spend the whole game doing snap shots which is alot less scary.

Wraithknight? Plasma spam, lascannons, missile launchers, meltas

If people would find their balls and give it a chance, they will realize it is not unbeatable and not so bad. Does this change the meta? Of course! Is it the end of the world? No.

Well at least we will see the WAAC players flood even more to Eldar. Easier to spot now more than ever.

The new codex shelves my orks. I have no answers to the new Eldar codex. Too much range, firepower, and speed.

On the bright side taking a break from 40K will save me money .

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
Wraithknight? Plasma spam, lascannons, missile launchers, meltas

They get FNP against all of this now.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

I go with what I know. I play Space Wolves and Eldar. With Space Wolves I would probably use some large blasts from Whirlwind, Relic Whirlwind, Stormfangs to try wipe some bikes off the map. If the bikes jink all the time they spend the whole game doing snap shots which is alot less scary.

Wraithknight? Plasma spam, lascannons, missile launchers, meltas

The bikes are basically better sternguard. Better movement, more firepower and range, about the same points cost per model. And the ability to Jink. They are scary. If you don't think they are scary, you're just trying to internet posture how you think you're better than everyone else for not seeing it as a problem.

As for your ways to fight a wraithknight: Plasma only wounds on a 5+. Missiles only do so on a 4+. Lascannons only do on a 3+. Killing a Wraithknight with Cyclone Missiles takes an average of 18 shots at BS4. That's 225 points worth of UPGRADES, let alone the platforms they come on. Just to kill a 270 point model. Would take as many melta gun shots which is 180 points worth of melta guns, let alone the platforms they are on, as well trying to get into position. It's 13/14 Lascannon shots at BS4 which is 260/280 points. It's 27 Plasma gun shots at BS4, which assuming you're in rapid fire range the entire time is 210 points, AND you're dealing with gets hot so you'll lose several soldiers of your on in the process of that kind of spam.

Looks like Wraithknights are getting FNP now too because ???, which I don't even want to figure out what kind of firepower you'd need to dump into said Wraithknight to kill it. They ARE A PROBLEM. The only thing you can bring as an Imperial player is a Knight, which is a losing proposition because they are more expensive and yet still easier to kill.

Dakkafexes are a poor example, their range is 18", they are slow moving, and are Heavy support so you normally expect the HS to have better guns than troops, who have OS.
Also they cost twice as much so the ratio is really a lot worst, yet these guys are one of the Tyranids all-Star.

Sure, the Windriders aren't invulnerable, but who the hell is? That doesnt mean its not OP. Some counters will exist but if you cant admit that this units is clearly underpointed for his power, you are either biased or dont understand the average power of most other armies in the warhammer 40k world.

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Dakkafexes are a poor example, their range is 18", they are slow moving, and are Heavy support so you normally expect the HS to have better guns than troops, who have OS.
Also they cost twice as much so the ratio is really a lot worst, yet these guys are one of the Tyranids all-Star.

Sure, the Windriders aren't invulnerable, but who the hell is? That doesnt mean its not OP. Some counters will exist but if you cant admit that this units is clearly underpointed for his power, you are either biased or dont understand the average power of most other armies in the warhammer 40k world.

Yeah. They are way more broken than the single model that can hide almost anywhere out of LOS for the entire game and give the entire Tyranid battle line shrouded. While the uber-balanced and super fun to play against Flyrants just delete unit after unit. Nid players always act like their codex is gimped and they are tactical geniuses when their all shrouded 5 Flyrant list tables a deathwing player. Just saying you have a bad codex doesn't make it true...

Nid players were still whining about Eldar last month, when the Nids were scooping up 2x-3x more GT wins due to all the tactical geniuses that managed to work out the strategic nuances of putting 5 Flyrants down on the table.

Actually, even if I am a Nids player, I will gladly agree that flyrants are OP.

You pointing to our OP unit doesnt make your OP unit less OP.

I would never play with more then 2 flyrants, because more is really cheezy, we dont even have any other viable HQ option.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:
Dakkafexes are a poor example, their range is 18", they are slow moving, and are Heavy support so you normally expect the HS to have better guns than troops, who have OS.
Also they cost twice as much so the ratio is really a lot worst, yet these guys are one of the Tyranids all-Star.

Sure, the Windriders aren't invulnerable, but who the hell is? That doesnt mean its not OP. Some counters will exist but if you cant admit that this units is clearly underpointed for his power, you are either biased or dont understand the average power of most other armies in the warhammer 40k world.

Yeah. They are way more broken than the single model that can hide almost anywhere out of LOS for the entire game and give the entire Tyranid battle line shrouded. While the uber-balanced and super fun to play against Flyrants just delete unit after unit. Nid players always act like their codex is gimped and they are tactical geniuses when their all shrouded 5 Flyrant list tables a deathwing player. Just saying you have a bad codex doesn't make it true...

Nid players were still whining about Eldar last month, when the Nids were scooping up 2x-3x more GT wins due to all the tactical geniuses that managed to work out the strategic nuances of putting 5 Flyrants down on the table.

this made my night

 BladeWalker wrote:
Always hated Eldar, now it's just worse. Good read of a thread for a guy jumping back in though. I ran the numbers of Eldar firepower vs. any of my lists and I think my counter to Eldar will be going all reserve Turn 1 , oops I lost, GG next opponent please...

Well, treat it as a mental exersize. You know beforehand that your army is severely outclassed. Thus, you try your best to pull a win or a draw somehow. You invent cunning tactix and develop your skills. If you loose, well, noone's expecting you to win in the first place. But if you win - it's a true win. You're the one responsible for this win.

When you play eldar, it's like: you win - sure, you're an eldar guy, ofc you win. If you loose - lol how did you manage to loose with eldar?!

The easier it is to win - the more relaxed the player becomes and thus doesn't increase his tactical skills. You don't need to be smart to roll around and win games with scatbikes and d-weapons everywhere.

I like how you think kooaei, and I agree, i know I can still win against eldar using my nids, even without abusing the op flyrants.
But my issue is purely a frustration against GW. They had managed to give us good codexes for the past maybe 8 books.
Sure some of them where a bit strong, but mostly all arround the right lines of power, the only ones left to bring back in line were eldars and tau, since these two were just that smidge too strong within specific builds.

So they decide to actually upgrade 2 out of the 3 units that really needed a nerf. Making this faction even more broken than before.

Is the eldar codex unbeatable, of course not. Cunning tacticians can still overcome the flaws in the opponents playstyle and luck still play a big role.

But this is the codex that breaks a nice line of codexes.

Games-Workshop almost got back into line....
I fear they lost it all again.

Maybe im dramatising this but that is how I see it.

Grav weapons are probably the only reliable and pt efficient way to shoot at WK for the imperial.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Grav weapons are probably the only reliable and pt efficient way to shoot at WK for the imperial.

The problem is bikes and WK out range them by a minimum of 12" and move twice as far per turn. If you get your gak kicked in by grav cannons running units with 36"+ range and 12"+ movement per turn you're an idiot. In order for grav to be effective against eldar, the eldar player has to willingly feed the SM player units. I will personally be staying 31" away from those things at all times and blasting them at range. Even with invisibility and shrouded they will eventually go down and will only kill what I allow them to kill.

 Toofast wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Grav weapons are probably the only reliable and pt efficient way to shoot at WK for the imperial.

The problem is bikes and WK out range them by a minimum of 12" and move twice as far per turn. If you get your gak kicked in by grav cannons running units with 36"+ range and 12"+ movement per turn you're an idiot. In order for grav to be effective against eldar, the eldar player has to willingly feed the SM player units. I will personally be staying 31" away from those things at all times and blasting them at range. Even with invisibility and shrouded they will eventually go down and will only kill what I allow them to kill.

Until they ally with BA and pod in with a div libby on turn one. The point is, eldar are by no means invincible. Even the WK.

 Toofast wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Grav weapons are probably the only reliable and pt efficient way to shoot at WK for the imperial.

The problem is bikes and WK out range them by a minimum of 12" and move twice as far per turn. If you get your gak kicked in by grav cannons running units with 36"+ range and 12"+ movement per turn you're an idiot. In order for grav to be effective against eldar, the eldar player has to willingly feed the SM player units. I will personally be staying 31" away from those things at all times and blasting them at range. Even with invisibility and shrouded they will eventually go down and will only kill what I allow them to kill.

Gating invisible grav cent.

I play daemons. One option for me is belakor as warlord, him and fateweaver swoop in, Bela terror the WK, then they both psychic shriek the WK at LD8

I get to re roll any/all dice on 1 deny the witch per turn. I'm going to prevent at least one of those from going off pretty reliably. It is one of the best counters but by no means a guaranteed kill. Also I see a list like that struggling against a lot of other stuff so maybe if list tailoring is an option, it will work. In a 6-8 game tournament probably not.

Hollismason wrote:
Pretty sure you can get turn 1 charges off with Banshees if you ally in Raiders.

6" move, 6" Deploy , Max 15" , 27 Total Possible move Average 2D6 is 8 + 3 is 11" .

So you'd need to roll above average.

Don't forget though, if you deploy the boats sideways and then rotate during your turn you get 3,4 inches extra movement. Remember Hawks have 18 move and therefore can do this even better(though apart from baharroth they're terrible in melee, you could however lock up a riptide)

Just remember though, not everyone deploys straight up to the 12 line.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

Don't forget though, if you deploy the boats sideways and then rotate during your turn you get 3,4 inches extra movement

Doesn't work since 7-th.

 Toofast wrote:
I get to re roll any/all dice on 1 deny the witch per turn. I'm going to prevent at least one of those from going off pretty reliably. It is one of the best counters but by no means a guaranteed kill. Also I see a list like that struggling against a lot of other stuff so maybe if list tailoring is an option, it will work. In a 6-8 game tournament probably not.

I'm pretty sure the deny the witch re roll is only if the farseer is the target?

 Toofast wrote:
I get to re roll any/all dice on 1 deny the witch per turn. I'm going to prevent at least one of those from going off pretty reliably.

That's only for Farseers. As a Farseer can never join the Wraithknight's unit, you can't re-roll the Deny the Witch for the WK. And as Farseers don't have psychic hoods and Wraithknights aren't psykers or have adamantium will, you're only denying on a 6.

 Toofast wrote:
I get to re roll any/all dice on 1 deny the witch per turn. I'm going to prevent at least one of those from going off pretty reliably. It is one of the best counters but by no means a guaranteed kill. Also I see a list like that struggling against a lot of other stuff so maybe if list tailoring is an option, it will work. In a 6-8 game tournament probably not.

Lol what?? And are you telling me a list including belakor and fateweaver struggling at tourneys? Lol

 koooaei wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

Don't forget though, if you deploy the boats sideways and then rotate during your turn you get 3,4 inches extra movement

Doesn't work since 7-th.

Why not?

Hmmm 18 shots with cyclone missiles to take down a Wraithknight eh? Well I guess I need to buff up my Iron Warriors Tyrant Terminators squad a bit. Glad someone else did the math. I think the rest of my force can handle the rest.

There is some rather insane stuff in the new codex, and unfortunately it appears that taking an all comers list that is no longer an option if you are playing against elder. You will have to tailor to maximize firepower instead of bringing units you actually like.

With my IW list I will have to drop a tank or two to add to my Tyrant squad and add some more firepower. My planned Elysians should be ok although my starting on the ground force is going to suffer greatly if it survives at all. My NL force is a Terror Assault force, not that I will have to deal with mass bikes in my meta but I have no answer for mass bikes and mass knights if I play elsewhere. I might pick up an IK as a counter if the new ranged knight rumor is true, but that is not an optimal solution. I could squeeze a melta squad in perhaps but no way to get them to a Knight. So once again I change my list from what I want to use or I play at a heavy disadvantage. My Night Raptors would take out the knight in close combat, but getting them there is the issue. A lighting with Rad missiles might be an option, I take one with that list anyway.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

Don't forget though, if you deploy the boats sideways and then rotate during your turn you get 3,4 inches extra movement

Doesn't work since 7-th.

Why not?

Because the BRB explicitly states that no part of the vehicle can move more than X" (where X = the number of inches you are choosing to move the vehicle). When you try ye olde 'rotate then move' trick, you violate that restriction because a part of the vehicle will be more than X" from where it was at the beginning of the turn.

HAHA! They actually fixed that cheat! Awesome, yay GW did something right for once.

DCannon4Life wrote:
Because the BRB explicitly states that no part of the vehicle can move more than X" (where X = the number of inches you are choosing to move the vehicle). When you try ye olde 'rotate then move' trick, you violate that restriction because a part of the vehicle will be more than X" from where it was at the beginning of the turn.

Where does it state that? Not calling you on it, but I can't seem to find it and a friend of mine pretty much always uses the rotate trick, so I'll need a page reference to rub his face in.

 Redemption wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:
Because the BRB explicitly states that no part of the vehicle can move more than X" (where X = the number of inches you are choosing to move the vehicle). When you try ye olde 'rotate then move' trick, you violate that restriction because a part of the vehicle will be more than X" from where it was at the beginning of the turn.

Where does it state that? Not calling you on it, but I can't seem to find it and a friend of mine pretty much always uses the rotate trick, so I'll need a page reference to rub his face in.

It's a little complicated because you have to refer back to the infantry movement rules due to the wording of the vehicle movement rules. This spells it out. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/602413.page

These are the two important rules.

''As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule of measuring distances to or
from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and
from their hull''

if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6"
away from where it started the Movement phase.

However, as discussed in that thread, this can lead to some wonky situations such as a pivoting Monolith only being able to move an inch if it turns 180.

Col. Dash wrote:

There is some rather insane stuff in the new codex, and unfortunately it appears that taking an all comers list that is no longer an option if you are playing against elder.

Since just about everyone will be playing the new eldar, building a list to kill eldar has become the new "all comers".

-Matt

Eldar Jetbikes putting out 40 ST6 shots with a Eldar Farseer giving Misfortune and Prescience to stuff is wrong , so wrong.

Am I missing something or can jetbikes not battle focus run and shoot scatter lasers because they are heavy weapons?

Jetbikes can't run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The image of someone trying to run with a jetbike is hilarious though, I just imagine it's like riding a bike that's way to small for you and you're like running with it between your legs.

But they have battle focus...

jSewell wrote:
But they have battle focus...

They still can't run.

jSewell wrote:
But they have battle focus...

All Battle Focus does is let you run and shoot in the same turn. If you can't run in the first place, it obviously doesn't benefit you.

They don't need battle-focus. Jetbikes have "thrust moves", which allow them to move 2d6" after shooting. Average roll on a 2d6 is 7, so on average they're moving faster with thrust-move then a 6" run anyway.

They can move and fire their scatter-lasers because jetbikes have relentless.

Finally got my hands on the codex yesterday, and I can see what you guys mean when you can use wraith construct to add more WK. As I understand D-Weapons they can only kill one model at a time though? So if you are shooting at a 5 man tac squad and roll a 6, and do D6+6 wounds, then you can still only kill 1 marine? (Don't have the rule book on hand atm.)

Scatbikes are awesome, but I see some people rolling with cannons. Is it really worth having one less shot in exchange for bladestorm? I guess they would be pretty good against nids/mc if you have the windrider host for 1 round of shred?

Do you guys think the new crimson hunter formation looks good? I thought it looked really good, but it doesn't seems to be ignored in the discussions I have seen so far. 440 points for the formation is pretty expensive, but crimson hunter with 4+ saves seems so good compared to running them without, and rerollable 4+ on jink means they can actually survive stuff for more than one round now. Favored enemy kinda helps against flyrants, but reroll to wound would have been much nicer. Otherwise I guess scatbikes are our best anti air units?

People seem to favor D-Scythes on WG, but you save 50 points by taking regular wraith cannons and they can ignore cover/inv/fnp on a 6, put them in a wraith host with a Spiritseer so they can reroll to hit and these guys will be more nasty against certain targets than the scythes. Seems pretty good?

I really want to like the new Banshees, but I don't want to spend the points on a wave serpent for them. Having them run across the table for a whole round with T3 and 4+ armor seems like I am just giving away first blood to my opponent. Feels like you need to ally in dark eldar if you want to get these or Wraith Blades to work, and that's a heavy tax to pay.

Vaul's Wrath seems like they could be ok now. I was thinking that you could add a warlock with shrouded and hide them behind some terrain to cover your WK or an objective. If anything (especially grav centurions with storm shield librarian running point) get's within 24" they are dead, but this unit would cost around 200 points so I guess there are better things to spend those points on. You could drop unit size down to 1 or 2 though.

Who has "Hit and Run" in the dex? Does Baharroth still have it?


I am wondering if a wraithbladestar is possible. Using a character for hit and run, trying to fit in some runes of battle to get protect and just going to town with rage.

 Lord Commissar wrote:
Who has "Hit and Run" in the dex? Does Baharroth still have it?


I am wondering if a wraithbladestar is possible. Using a character for hit and run, trying to fit in some runes of battle to get protect and just going to town with rage.

Baharroth still has hit and run.
Asurmen has counter attack.
Jain Zar adds 3" to run moves with her warlord abilities.

-Matt

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Here's a question.

The warp spiders have a rule called 'flickerjunp' it says when they are selected as a target from a shooting attack they may make a 2D6 Jump....

.... It doesn't say it's restricted to once.... What happens if they're targeted three or four times. Can they make 3 or 4 jumps?

rules as written, to me, they absolutely get to do the jump multiple times, and that is how i will play it until i see an FAQ saying otherwise.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Here's a question.

The warp spiders have a rule called 'flickerjunp' it says when they are selected as a target from a shooting attack they may make a 2D6 Jump....

.... It doesn't say it's restricted to once.... What happens if they're targeted three or four times. Can they make 3 or 4 jumps?

rules as written, to me, they absolutely get to do the jump multiple times, and that is how i will play it until i see an FAQ saying otherwise.

Hahaha, I'm opening a rules debate on this but I suspect you're right

 Red Corsair wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

Formation Crimson Hunter formation cause it's broken.

Why???

It's pretty brutal man. You get three fliers for 440 that each put out 4 s8 ap 2 shots, reroll armor pen on other fliers and have an automatic 4+ cover save without jinking, which becomes rerollable if you do jink. All on a vector dancer. I don't mind it because it hard counters flyrants, which I am so tired of seeing spammed.

at first i thought it was very strong but vehicle squads are brought back down a level because of the nature of jinking. Its not jsut one vehicle in the squad that does it. If you were facing off vs 3 flyrants, ya ofcourse you will come in, all your hunters will be forced to fire on one tyrant, you will prolly kill it, leaving the other 24 s6 shots from the two remaining to either slaughter all three of your planes, or force you to jink and than snapfire next turn, and even if jinking theres a decent chance you still lose 2. My crimson hunter(s) will be fielded solo.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

at first i thought it was very strong but vehicle squads are brought back down a level because of the nature of jinking. Its not jsut one vehicle in the squad that does it. If you were facing off vs 3 flyrants, ya ofcourse you will come in, all your hunters will be forced to fire on one tyrant, you will prolly kill it, leaving the other 24 s6 shots from the two remaining to either slaughter all three of your planes, or force you to jink and than snapfire next turn, and even if jinking theres a decent chance you still lose 2. My crimson hunter(s) will be fielded solo.

You have to jink with all vehicles in a squad? Why are the crimson hunters considered a squad? If you have two hive tyrants with 24 total TL shots as S6 and BS...3?, then 18 shots will hit, 3 will cause a glance, and 1,5 glances will be saved on a 4+. You shouldn't even need to jink against hat, but if you do then only 0.75 shots will make a glancing hit on average. Still, you need to get at least 2 crimsons on the table to take one out, or do crimson hunters as a formation all arrive on the same reinforcement roll?

How do psychich powers work on flyers in 7th, flyrants can reduce your fliers BS to 1 if they get the right power?

Tyrants are BS4 with twin linked and its S6.

Oh, for a second I was living in a dream world where the crimson hunter actually had armor, made the calculation on AV12.

So, 21,34 hits, 10,67 penetrations, 5,33 hits after 4+ save.

Yeah, that is pretty awful. With Jink you reduce that to 2,67 hits on the Crimson Hunter. So you are going to lose one no matter what. If you separate them though then each flyrant could take out one Crimson Hunter on average each, and that's after you jink.

Still, why does the formation count as a "squad", and I assume all units in a squad has to jink? Do all the crimson hunters in a formation arrive on the table in the same turn?

 Acidian wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

at first i thought it was very strong but vehicle squads are brought back down a level because of the nature of jinking. Its not jsut one vehicle in the squad that does it. If you were facing off vs 3 flyrants, ya ofcourse you will come in, all your hunters will be forced to fire on one tyrant, you will prolly kill it, leaving the other 24 s6 shots from the two remaining to either slaughter all three of your planes, or force you to jink and than snapfire next turn, and even if jinking theres a decent chance you still lose 2. My crimson hunter(s) will be fielded solo.

You have to jink with all vehicles in a squad? Why are the crimson hunters considered a squad? If you have two hive tyrants with 24 total TL shots as S6 and BS...3?, then 18 shots will hit, 3 will cause a glance, and 1,5 glances will be saved on a 4+. You shouldn't even need to jink against hat, but if you do then only 0.75 shots will make a glancing hit on average. Still, you need to get at least 2 crimsons on the table to take one out, or do crimson hunters as a formation all arrive on the same reinforcement roll?

How do psychich powers work on flyers in 7th, flyrants can reduce your fliers BS to 1 if they get the right power?

On behalf of all Nid players, your math is wrong.

24 shots at BS 4, TL means 24 x 8 /9 = 21.33

Stength 6 vs AV 10 means 21.33 / 2 = 10.66, or 5.33 per Flyrant since they are likely targeting different Crimson Hunters. At this point, if you don't jink, then that 4+ cover leads to a dead CH more often than not... If you jink though, you are very likely to survive, or at least require a second round to finish off.

Basically, if you don't jink, then 2 Flyrants have quite reasonable odds of shooting down 2 CH, and are almost guaranteed to kill one of them. To avoid this, I would spread out your CH (they're mobile enough to still get good fire arcs) and so that if one gets hit, the other two can still shoot the offending Flyrant next turn.

Yeah, I fixed the math in the previous post. Even on a rerollable 4+ you are still probably going to lose one CH.

What is the threat range on a flyrant, 36"? Seems it would be tough to get out of range without flying of one of the sides, asuming the flyrants are anywhere in the middle of the table.

At least the flyrants are focused on your crimson hunters. There's other stuff that you might not want them shooting at.

Zimko wrote:

 Redemption wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:
Because the BRB explicitly states that no part of the vehicle can move more than X" (where X = the number of inches you are choosing to move the vehicle). When you try ye olde 'rotate then move' trick, you violate that restriction because a part of the vehicle will be more than X" from where it was at the beginning of the turn.

Where does it state that? Not calling you on it, but I can't seem to find it and a friend of mine pretty much always uses the rotate trick, so I'll need a page reference to rub his face in.

It's a little complicated because you have to refer back to the infantry movement rules due to the wording of the vehicle movement rules. This spells it out. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/602413.page

These are the two important rules.

''As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule of measuring distances to or
from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and
from their hull''

if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6"
away from where it started the Movement phase.

However, as discussed in that thread, this can lead to some wonky situations such as a pivoting Monolith only being able to move an inch if it turns 180.

Actually it can't even move at all if the point you choose is the corner of the hull...which is why I have NEVER seen anyone play the way you suggest, even at GTs. There is also that bit in the rules ablout how rotation does not count as movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Acidian wrote:
Yeah, I fixed the math in the previous post. Even on a rerollable 4+ you are still probably going to lose one CH.

What is the threat range on a flyrant, 36"? Seems it would be tough to get out of range without flying of one of the sides, asuming the flyrants are anywhere in the middle of the table.

At least the flyrants are focused on your crimson hunters. There's other stuff that you might not want them shooting at.

Why are the Flyrants firing at full BS? they would have to jink for sure, if not, The Crimson Hunters murder them the turn they arrive.

EDIT: Also, how much do the Flyrants cost? Crimson Hunter Formation comes to 440 if you take an Exarch.

Depends on whether or not they're getting Malanthrope support or not. If they are, then they likely won't jink.

 Acidian wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

at first i thought it was very strong but vehicle squads are brought back down a level because of the nature of jinking. Its not jsut one vehicle in the squad that does it. If you were facing off vs 3 flyrants, ya ofcourse you will come in, all your hunters will be forced to fire on one tyrant, you will prolly kill it, leaving the other 24 s6 shots from the two remaining to either slaughter all three of your planes, or force you to jink and than snapfire next turn, and even if jinking theres a decent chance you still lose 2. My crimson hunter(s) will be fielded solo.

You have to jink with all vehicles in a squad? Why are the crimson hunters considered a squad? If you have two hive tyrants with 24 total TL shots as S6 and BS...3?, then 18 shots will hit, 3 will cause a glance, and 1,5 glances will be saved on a 4+. You shouldn't even need to jink against hat, but if you do then only 0.75 shots will make a glancing hit on average. Still, you need to get at least 2 crimsons on the table to take one out, or do crimson hunters as a formation all arrive on the same reinforcement roll?

How do psychich powers work on flyers in 7th, flyrants can reduce your fliers BS to 1 if they get the right power?

the 3 crimson hunter formation is what i was refering to, not 3 individual crimson hunters. I was under the impression the whole vehicle squad jinks if one of them jinks, thats how ive been playing my eldar hornets which is the only vehicle i ever had the chance to field in a squad.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

the 3 crimson hunter formation is what i was refering to, not 3 individual crimson hunters. I was under the impression the whole vehicle squad jinks if one of them jinks, thats how ive been playing my eldar hornets which is the only vehicle i ever had the chance to field in a squad.

Sure, but where does it say that the vehicles in a formation has to be a squad?

 Acidian wrote:

Sure, but where does it say that the vehicles in a formation has to be a squad?

Ooh, nice catch. Due to the similarities in meaning of "Squadron" and "Formation" when referring to planes, it's easy to make the mistake of thinking one means the other. I had been thinking that formation was a squadron of crimson hunters, which would be severely overpriced, IMO. But you're right, they're 3 individual crimson hunters, which is significantly different.

 Acidian wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

the 3 crimson hunter formation is what i was refering to, not 3 individual crimson hunters. I was under the impression the whole vehicle squad jinks if one of them jinks, thats how ive been playing my eldar hornets which is the only vehicle i ever had the chance to field in a squad.

Sure, but where does it say that the vehicles in a formation has to be a squad?

good call. better than i thought it was clearly.

 Acidian wrote:
Finally got my hands on the codex yesterday, and I can see what you guys mean when you can use wraith construct to add more WK. As I understand D-Weapons they can only kill one model at a time though? So if you are shooting at a 5 man tac squad and roll a 6, and do D6+6 wounds, then you can still only kill 1 marine? (Don't have the rule book on hand atm.)

Yeah, overkill wounds don't spill over to other models.

Scatbikes are awesome, but I see some people rolling with cannons. Is it really worth having one less shot in exchange for bladestorm? I guess they would be pretty good against nids/mc if you have the windrider host for 1 round of shred?

Besides the extra shot, there's also the 12" extra range, which helps you keep your jetbikes out of range of most return fire.

Do you guys think the new crimson hunter formation looks good? I thought it looked really good, but it doesn't seems to be ignored in the discussions I have seen so far. 440 points for the formation is pretty expensive, but crimson hunter with 4+ saves seems so good compared to running them without, and rerollable 4+ on jink means they can actually survive stuff for more than one round now. Favored enemy kinda helps against flyrants, but reroll to wound would have been much nicer. Otherwise I guess scatbikes are our best anti air units?

As Preferred Enemy allows you to re-roll 1's To Wound, and the S8 Wounds anything T6 or lower on a 2+, you already get re-roll To Wound in most cases. But yeah, scatter laser bikes make pretty decent anti-air, although they can be lacking against the AV12 flyers. Even the much detested 10 scatterbike unit would only average 1.1 glancing hit against one, even before taking Jink into account. For other anti-air, Reapers with starshot aren't terrible either, as they ignore jink and have a built-in re-roll to hit against flyers. And keep in mind that Eldar missile launchers now have the Starhawk missiles by default.

People seem to favor D-Scythes on WG, but you save 50 points by taking regular wraith cannons and they can ignore cover/inv/fnp on a 6, put them in a wraith host with a Spiritseer so they can reroll to hit and these guys will be more nasty against certain targets than the scythes. Seems pretty good?

D-Scythes basically ignore cover on a 3+, so only units with very few models and a powerful invulnerable save and/or fnp are going to survive getting hit by a D-Scythe.

D-scythes ignore cover by default, due to being flamer templates.

I watched a batrep on youtube last night - necrons vs. eldar. Admittedly the eldar player didn't run scatbike spam, but he did have aspect formations and two wraithknights. Looks like the necrons savaged him. Maybe things aren't as unbalanced as people think? Perhaps we are looking at a new codex paradigm - great internal balance (GW wants to sell ALL the models) and a bump in overall power level?

Watched that BatRep too. I wouldn't have run the list the Eldar player ran; "Oh, and I brought one Hornet." One Hornet? Hmmmm..... I would prefer not to start drawing conclusions from any BatRep with Eldar in it. We have an idea of what's broken (or at least bent), so I'd prefer to focus on games that feature those elements.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Acidian wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

at first i thought it was very strong but vehicle squads are brought back down a level because of the nature of jinking. Its not jsut one vehicle in the squad that does it. If you were facing off vs 3 flyrants, ya ofcourse you will come in, all your hunters will be forced to fire on one tyrant, you will prolly kill it, leaving the other 24 s6 shots from the two remaining to either slaughter all three of your planes, or force you to jink and than snapfire next turn, and even if jinking theres a decent chance you still lose 2. My crimson hunter(s) will be fielded solo.

You have to jink with all vehicles in a squad? Why are the crimson hunters considered a squad? If you have two hive tyrants with 24 total TL shots as S6 and BS...3?, then 18 shots will hit, 3 will cause a glance, and 1,5 glances will be saved on a 4+. You shouldn't even need to jink against hat, but if you do then only 0.75 shots will make a glancing hit on average. Still, you need to get at least 2 crimsons on the table to take one out, or do crimson hunters as a formation all arrive on the same reinforcement roll?

How do psychich powers work on flyers in 7th, flyrants can reduce your fliers BS to 1 if they get the right power?

the 3 crimson hunter formation is what i was refering to, not 3 individual crimson hunters. I was under the impression the whole vehicle squad jinks if one of them jinks, thats how ive been playing my eldar hornets which is the only vehicle i ever had the chance to field in a squad.

They are not a squad dude.

edit: ninja'd