So how good is warpath as a replacement large army sci fi game for 40k?
I have read that many people are happy with KoW for WHF replacement, is this situation similar?
edited to add.
Also, I thought deadzone was their skirmish game... but now they are adding firefight which is also a skirmish game? What is the difference between deadzone and firefight?
Tamereth wrote: Somebody wake me up when the warpath Kickstarter begins, this is just all Deadzone stuff.
Seriously I thought the kings of war 2 Kickstarter was light on new models but this is ridiculous.
Yeah.. I'm fully in this camp now. They say they want to flesh out whatever.. but lead with existing stuff and a couple of characters/vehicles.. Then go on to talk about how they aren't going to be releasing stuff for some factions? I'm rolling my eyes for those of you who can't see. I was pretty excited for this to be honest but man, they're pulling a Mantic.
I'm glad to see "pulling a Mantic" is still a thing. And I have little interest in Warpath to begin with - but looking through their offerings it does seem a little disappointing. I'd think properly launching Warpath would be a BIG priority and would entail Mantic looking to release a few hard plastic kits per army in a big multi-million dollar kickstarter.
This, in contrast seems pretty low-key and half-hearted.
I'm willing to bet that it this campaign will end with at least two factions with solid plastic ranges funded out of the kickstarter. KoW2 got that much on a much slower start, and sci-fi sells much better than fantasy in general.
timetowaste85 wrote: Firefight=40k third edition
Deadzone=NecromundaF
Warpath=current 40k
In terms of scale and such. That's what I've been hearing thrown around.
But Deadzone also appears to be played on a 'grid', like a board-game more than an open field minis game, from what I've seen (I have the game and have looked through the rules, but haven't played a game yet).
I'd be pretty surprised if Firefight didn't let you play with 12-20 guys as well, being aimed at the small-scale of things.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gitzbitah wrote: This is far fewer new models than I was expecting as well- but Galva-dwarf is awesome.
Spoiler:
I don't see a fig in this KS that looks even remotely like that...
If you mean the dwarf leader, I think you need to go back and try again.
timetowaste85 wrote: Firefight=40k third edition
Deadzone=Necromunda
Warpath=current 40k
In terms of scale and such. That's what I've been hearing thrown around.
Deadzone is a great game, and uses a similar amount of models, but it's not a Necromunda substitute in any way, sadly. The rules are very different, the playing area is 1/4 the size but most importantly, it doesn't have any of the narrative qualities of Necromundas campaign system. To me, the post game is 80% of the fun in Necromunda. In Deadzone, I'd much rather play one-off games.
I think the thing with this Kickstarter is that tooling a single vehicle takes up at least $75k of funding, so things are heavily focused on that currently.
The starter set seems like the best deal to pick up currently, gets you both resin models rather than just one and seems to be better value than the army deals.
I'm sticking with that for the time being and seeing what happens, a set of three vehicles for $75 would he good. Mantic have stated that vehicle bundles are going to happen in the comments.
No idea what is upcoming, but I'd expect a Veer-myn vehicle somewhere around $250-$300k and then possibly moving on to the Plague.
The last Deadzone Kickstarter was kind of a Warpath Kickstarter in disguise, so a lot of the armies are already complete apart from vehicles.
decker_cky wrote: I'm willing to bet that it this campaign will end with at least two factions with solid plastic ranges funded out of the kickstarter. KoW2 got that much on a much slower start, and sci-fi sells much better than fantasy in general.
They also shifted focus from Deadzone being "these models will be unique, distinct specialists with additional details that you won't find on our normal Warpath range" to "we can use Deadzone to fund a good chunk of our Warpath range before even Kickstarting the latter". The start of this campaign may not have the "wow" factor of everything being completely unseen, hard plastic products, but:
1) The initial funding goal would have been much higher, meaning that people would get impatient about reaching stretch goals.
2) Even having a full range of plastic stuff right from the start is no guarantee of mega success, a la Maelstrom's Edge.
3) They already had at least 2 "core" hard plastic sprues for each of the Enforcer, FF & Veermyn armies, which are going to be the majority of models in any given army.
4) They are prioritising the funding of at least 1 vehicle, with variant options, in hard plastic for each of these armies. This seems sensible to me, as these were clearly the largest gaps in their range.
Mantic has confirmed that the next faction will appear in the next $75k.
I think there's some really good odds of seeing 6 factions at this rate.
Plague already have zombies in hard plastic, which just leaves 3rd Gens to fill out the infantry (hopefully with some options to make an alternate unit/ weapon loadouts), and then it seems a looted interceptor is on the cards for them in terms of vehicles, possibly other vehicles too if Corp get funded. They also have a lot of stuff already done as part of Deadzone.
Beyong 400k, Corp and Asterians are likely, again, both of which already have a good amount of minis already completed. I'd be happy with just some vehicle kits for Corp personally, the infantry is rather nice already.
The first vehicle battle group has been announced it's $75 for 3 Interceptors/persecutors plus you get parts in resin to make an Arbiter armed with Polaris cannons.
The battle group can be chosen as part of the Advanced warfare pledge or bought for an extra $75
@Scarletsquig - the KS exclusive faction character specialists are metal, not resin, unless I missed something.
@DaveC - I don't think the resin ship parts are KS exclusive, just only available to buy through this KS via the get 3 for $75 deal. At least, that's how I read it.
Huh, the way I read that wasn't that the arbiter was KS exclusive, just that the only packaging of the resin bits in the KS was with the battlegroup. --like Vermonter said.
Not really sure if I love that scheme or not. They know 25/each isn't as enticing as 60 for 3 so they added on the resin bits but what if its like 40k and the meta makes the arbiter the best build? Then what?
Oh well its still a bundle deal. Gotta stay light in this KS though which might keep me from going in on too many vehicles. I hadn't thought new plague would be my main goal, but its starting to sound like it.
Veermyn character seems cool too, I appreciate as much fluff as they're willing to print.
Vermonter wrote: @Scarletsquig - the KS exclusive faction character specialists are metal, not resin, unless I missed something.
@DaveC - I don't think the resin ship parts are KS exclusive, just only available to buy through this KS via the get 3 for $75 deal. At least, that's how I read it.
Changed it - I could have sworn it originally said exclusive or did I mix it up with the VeerMyn
Well, I was hoping for new battlegroups that look like this. Whilst it might not be this specific one that I go for, getting one of them is probably enough to keep me in at the EB I nabbed.
4 flyers (or maybe tanks) for... £75? ish? Plus all the rules, freebies etc. Yeah, I'll likely stick now.
I just noticed the rulebook will include a 'how to use 10mm miniatures for WarPath' section. I would like to see a 10mm starter box with a couple of forces and some terrain. That would get me to pledge this KS quickly.
There's been a lot of banter about minis, the last few pages, but how has all this progressed in the meantime?
Alex C wrote:
Basically you buy a unit in batches. Each of these batches has a "hub" that everything is measured from. The rest of the figures in a batch are irrelevant. You have to keep each hub in the unit within a certain distance of the other hubs in a unit and then arrange the rest of the models around the hubs. It's just a pain in the arse to be fiddling around like that when the aim of the game is to make streamlined mass battles a quick and easy thing to do. If they want a multibase game, make the whole bloody unit on a base, rather than this middle ground nonsense that just complicates things.
Bolognesus wrote:
On the other hand, the hub idea feels so convoluted and impractical to me that it'd be enough for me to shrug and simply accept there's not going to be any proper large platoon 28mm scifi game on the market.
adamsouza wrote:Yeah, the hub concept kept me from even trying the Alpha rules with my gaming group.
judgedoug wrote:The Warpath Alpha rules released several months ago were a weird combination of some unit-based rules but still holding onto individual-model rules with a death grip. It was awkward and made little sense.
judgedoug wrote:
• Get into the thick of the action, using true LOS, per-model hits in shooting and melee, improved terrain occupying rules, and Warpath’s Orders system.
using true LOS
true LOS
lord_blackfang wrote:Reading the Warpath beta I definitely had the feeling that the author had never seen any rulesets other than Mantic's existing games and 40k. It is a crappy Frankenstein's monster stitched together from KoW, Warpath 1.0, Deadzone and 40k. No other influences. None.
It hasn't progressed, we're still waiting for the first alpha of Firefight, and another update of Warpath to see what they do about hubs - so far it sounds like hubs is being shunted to the back of the book for people who don't want to multibase, while the main rules will encourage unit stands ala Dropzone Commander infantry. I'd also stake money on Warpath switching to the KoW abstract LoS system, but getting Firefight away from TLoS will probably be another battle entirely.
I can live with TLOS in Firefight, I think, if it's about individual models. Where it breaks down for me is when the whole squad can be wiped out because one guy's elbow can be seen around a corner. Like what happens in 40k from 5th onwards.
NTRabbit wrote: It hasn't progressed, we're still waiting for the first alpha of Firefight, and another update of Warpath to see what they do about hubs - so far it sounds like hubs is being shunted to the back of the book for people who don't want to multibase, while the main rules will encourage unit stands ala Dropzone Commander infantry. I'd also stake money on Warpath switching to the KoW abstract LoS system, but getting Firefight away from TLoS will probably be another battle entirely.
WP is abstract LoS....?
Yes, the plan is to put hubs into an appendix for people without stands now and the main rules will be on the basis of collective basing.
Tamereth wrote: Somebody wake me up when the warpath Kickstarter begins, this is just all Deadzone stuff.
Seriously I thought the kings of war 2 Kickstarter was light on new models but this is ridiculous.
Yeah.. I'm fully in this camp now. They say they want to flesh out whatever.. but lead with existing stuff and a couple of characters/vehicles.. Then go on to talk about how they aren't going to be releasing stuff for some factions? I'm rolling my eyes for those of you who can't see. I was pretty excited for this to be honest but man, they're pulling a Mantic.
I'm glad to see "pulling a Mantic" is still a thing. And I have little interest in Warpath to begin with - but looking through their offerings it does seem a little disappointing. I'd think properly launching Warpath would be a BIG priority and would entail Mantic looking to release a few hard plastic kits per army in a big multi-million dollar kickstarter.
This, in contrast seems pretty low-key and half-hearted.
What they should do is a series of $5000 stretch goals to produce restic models
Yeah, it would be nice of Mantic had some shiny to show off for this one to lure people in. The two vehicles are nice, but should have been a part of it from the start. The initial funding goal should have included at least one new plastic infantry kit and one vehicle for each faction, even if that meant a $200k stating goal.
I'm in anyway, because I want a Forge Fathers army and don't already have one. But there's not much here so far beyond new rulebooks for those who already have armies.
Don't get me wrong, it's still a good deal for the money, but to be the big launch for their 40K alternative, there just isn't enough shiny at the moment.
On the other hand, maybe they know something we don't: that the new Warpath rules will be published just in time for GW to AoSify 40K. They had that same near-perfect timing with KoW...
I'm in for now, the 4 flyers and a rulebook for £80 is a very nice buy in point to complement my bits and bobs from the last deadzone kickstarter. Really really hoping we can start getting into the meat of this kickstarter soon as I really want to see what they have to offer for the other races.
lord_blackfang wrote: I can live with TLOS in Firefight, I think, if it's about individual models. Where it breaks down for me is when the whole squad can be wiped out because one guy's elbow can be seen around a corner. Like what happens in 40k from 5th onwards.
40k also uses TLOS on an individual basis. Can't kill what you can't see!
lord_blackfang wrote: I can live with TLOS in Firefight, I think, if it's about individual models. Where it breaks down for me is when the whole squad can be wiped out because one guy's elbow can be seen around a corner. Like what happens in 40k from 5th onwards.
40k also uses TLOS on an individual basis. Can't kill what you can't see!
I wish "TLOS" meant Terminator LOS gosh I despise true line of sight
The army deals look good. Plus.. it's models for three games.
They were already interested in Deadzone, maybe this will push them over the edge for that too.
If Asterians and Plague show up, I'll be tempted to just buy it for myself. They can hang out with my unassembled Deadzone stuff. I'll look at that pile of potential anytime I feel like being disappointed in my friends.
edlowe wrote: Couple of updates from the alpha feedback mantic forum thread.
There will be no multi bases in the ks. I.e. no plastic trays. They haven't decided on the best idea yet.
I find this really discouraging. How to base squads is a pretty core concept for the game, and I don't like that they'll be selling me a product that's incomplete.
I like multi-basing, hell I actually liked the hubs just fine. I just want a game that's complete.
The marauders will probably feature in the corps armylist as a merc unit.
I think this confirms that they absolutely do not want to take the KoW approach to Warpath, which is cool. Selfishly, I want a "not-40k" set of rules, but I know that Mantic needs to sell product.
The Veermyn will have some 'comedy' rules to bring some fun into the game, like other mantic games.
Something that's funny when you write a rule isn't always funny when that model is played, but I'll take a "wait and see" approach. I think there's nothing wrong with a more light hearted approach, but "comedy" rules are usually code for "random dice rolling."
I think its more like hidden units springing ambushes, beasts going wild through your own lines and stuff like that. Maybe 'wild' rules would have been a more apt description.
overtyrant wrote: You get extra movement for your rats if your eating a cheese sandwich! As long as they don't go down the AoS route I'm sure it will be fine.
Yeah, you can keep your comedy. If I wanted comedy, I'd play Munchkin, not spend hundreds of dollars and hours on miniatures.
Yes, the plan is to put hubs into an appendix for people without stands now and the main rules will be on the basis of collective basing.
Ugh. Either of those options is enough to kill any interest for me.
Multi-basing is fine for a 6 or 10mm game, but it's just too unwieldy at 28mm. Hence so many Astra Imperialguardium players over the last 10 years or so asking 'Is it ok if I put my heavy weapon teams on separate bases...?'
overtyrant wrote: You get extra movement for your rats if your eating a cheese sandwich! As long as they don't go down the AoS route I'm sure it will be fine.
overtyrant wrote: You get extra movement for your rats if your eating a cheese sandwich! As long as they don't go down the AoS route I'm sure it will be fine.
Yes, the plan is to put hubs into an appendix for people without stands now and the main rules will be on the basis of collective basing.
Ugh. Either of those options is enough to kill any interest for me.
Multi-basing is fine for a 6 or 10mm game, but it's just too unwieldy at 28mm. Hence so many Astra Imperialguardium players over the last 10 years or so asking 'Is it ok if I put my heavy weapon teams on separate bases...?'
Yup. Same here. Lost any sort of interest to try this ruleset. Multi-basing 28mm figures, especially in a sci-fi game, is absurd. If that's the case, your game is too big for the scale.
RoninXiC wrote: Isnt that like.. you know.. the whole point of a KS? To fund something that does not exist?
People just cannot be satisfied.
DZ Campaign Mode, Asterians and Forgefathers, printed Psy books, etc etc.. Mantic does not do well with "we'll get to it later" type stuff. They've been claiming that the Warpath rules are in draft for months. Very little has changed in those rules that were first posted months ago, moreover, for the mass combat game they are sticking to the multi-basing thing. The seem extremely unclear about the direction they want to go and many of the decisions they're making at this point seem centered around funneling money not building the game that people want. To me, the problem started when they didn't know what size game they wanted to make. It got worse when they started tossing around two separate concepts. If it has taken them this long to still be in alpha on the mass-battle concept, then what are we going to see with the other set that they don't even seem to be serious about? When people ask questions about the game in the KS chat, Mantic says "let's just focus on the models". They don't know what product they're making so how are we supposed to back that with confidence?
RoninXiC wrote: Isnt that like.. you know.. the whole point of a KS? To fund something that does not exist?
No, it's to fund something that the creator needs money to produce.
As a general rule, campaigns that are more fleshed out do better than those that are still just at the idea stage, as people can see what they are actually putting their money towards. So miniature campaigns with finished sculpts are more attractive than those with just sketches... And rulesets that are already written are going to be more attractive than a description of a ruleset that somebody is intending to start writing later...
Well we did try to tell them that multibasing a 28mm mass battle sci fi game would be a huge turn off for the majority, but they seem to have believed the Mantic forums were more representative than they actually are.
NTRabbit wrote: Well we did try to tell them that multibasing a 28mm mass battle sci fi game would be a huge turn off for the majority, but they seem to have believed the Mantic forums were more representative than they actually are.
I'm still hopeful for Firefight at least.
Yeah, for the sheer small hope of Firefight, I'm keeping a buck in to give the PM time. If the Firefight rules are out before the PM closes, I'll be able to make informed decisions about what to get. Prior to that, I'm not playing guessing games with my money :/
As to the Mantic forums, I've learned that divergent opinions do not fare well there. Mantic has some neat ideas and some good models but nothing about the fluff of their games or even the mechanics of any of their products has impressed me to the point of earning that sort of loyalty. It seems to me that the people who are content with Mantic's stuff no matter what are the company's biggest problem :/
EDIT: Just as a reminder, Mantic said Firefight's alpha rules won't be available during the course of the KS.
MLaw wrote: It seems to me that the people who are content with Mantic's stuff no matter what are the company's biggest problem
I enjoy all of their games. Simple rules, fun experience and can be played through relatively quickly. I also really enjoy their model ranges and fiction material. If that means I'm some sort of huge problem to their growth and development as a company, then so be it, but I think their success has been down to more than just fanboys.
I'm backng mainly for Firefight too. I can certainly understand why people have reservations about its current state of development but I'm basing my decision on their previous works, all of which I have been happy with.
Ultimately it's a personal choice, but to write off those of us who enjoy their products as a "problem" is a little unfair, imho.
Alex, you replied without exclamation marks, you're not the people I'm talking about.
As an aside.. If you were to be content with this.. or.. whatever the produced from the feedback of the people who weren't happy, then is there a problem with people who aren't happy giving feedback? What I was getting at is, there is a subset who attacks people for not liking the products rather than simply recognizing that some people like it and some don't. If people who would like to see something changed are not allowed to speak up, then how is Mantic supposed to further their product lines?
Again.. your response is mature and allows for the two of us to have differing opinions. That's not what I've found on the Mantic boards.
Can someone explain the multibasing issue? I do not have much experience outside of 40K and do not use IG so the heavy weapons example eludes me a bit. They stated that the models will be able to be removed so the picture I have in my head (which is likely wrong) is something like this albeit much simpler
so am I wrong on what multibasing means? I do not really see this a bad thing. I have moved enough horde armies ( including positioning as to not be raped by templates etc) to want something like a movement tray that keeps you at optimal unit coherency.
NTRabbit wrote: Well we did try to tell them that multibasing a 28mm mass battle sci fi game would be a huge turn off for the majority, but they seem to have believed the Mantic forums were more representative than they actually are.
Hey everyone
I don't want to spoil the party or anything, so I'll try not to get involved with this thread :-P. However, I just wanted to let you know that we are fully aware that the Mantic fans on our own forums do not represent the player base as a whole. Our forum is just the most convenient place for us to collect and reply to feedback. That doesn't mean I don't read all of the posts on here (and everywhere else) and take them into account for rules and sculpting decisions - trust me, you are being heard :-).
I will be the first to admit that we don't get everything right, but we do listen, and we do try. We may not agree with all the feedback we get, and you may not all personally see why, but that doesn't mean we've made any decisions lightly, and it doesn't mean that there isn't a sufficient number of other people out there who do like what we do.
If you want to know anything specifically about the rules, question any decisions, or suggest alternatives, please head over to the feedback thread on the Mantic forum and I will answer you as best I can.
I'm probably getting in the way of the standard Dakka Mantic-bashing now, so I'll duck out and let you get on with it ;-).
Polonius wrote:
I find this really discouraging. How to base squads is a pretty core concept for the game, and I don't like that they'll be selling me a product that's incomplete.
Something that's funny when you write a rule isn't always funny when that model is played, but I'll take a "wait and see" approach. I think there's nothing wrong with a more light hearted approach, but "comedy" rules are usually code for "random dice rolling."
Yup. Hence my asking.
insaniak wrote:
RoninXiC wrote: Isnt that like.. you know.. the whole point of a KS? To fund something that does not exist?
No, it's to fund something that the creator needs money to produce.
As a general rule, campaigns that are more fleshed out do better than those that are still just at the idea stage, as people can see what they are actually putting their money towards. So miniature campaigns with finished sculpts are more attractive than those with just sketches... And rulesets that are already written are going to be more attractive than a description of a ruleset that somebody is intending to start writing later...
Yup! It'd be nice if there was something along the lines of "here's what we've been working on. We just need funding to get it published!" rather than "Pfff, I dunno, dice or something lol here's a render of a bobble headed comedy space viking."
MLaw wrote: It seems to me that the people who are content with Mantic's stuff no matter what are the company's biggest problem :/
That's not really something unique to Mantic, however. Back when I played Warmahordes, complaining about anything on the PP forum was like walking through Harlem with a sign saying "I hate..." well, you know.
I'm not a big fan of a metal upgrade pack for the drop squad. After bjarg starnafall I was really looking forward to the hammerfist team and was hoping to see them get their own new sprue.
keltikhoa wrote: Can someone explain the multibasing issue?
I do not have much experience outside of 40K and do not use IG so the heavy weapons example eludes me a bit. They stated that the models will be able to be removed so the picture I have in my head (which is likely wrong) is something like this albeit much simpler
so am I wrong on what multibasing means? I do not really see this a bad thing. I have moved enough horde armies ( including positioning as to not be raped by templates etc) to want something like a movement tray that keeps you at optimal unit coherency.
40k also uses TLOS on an individual basis. Can't kill what you can't see!
Which was a mistake and a step backwards from 5th edition's vastly better LOS rules, IMO.
Wasnt 5th the first time they introduced TLOS? Pretty sure about that...
On topic, I wouldnt mind it for Firefight, but Warpath would have issues... especially if they dont go for standardized unit bases.
Here's a quote from 3rd:
"Sometimes it may be hard to tell if a line of sight is blocked or not, so players must stoop over the table for a 'model's eye view'. This is the best way to see if a line of sight exists."
3rd had all enemies, all vehicle block LOS but friendly units (that weren't vehicles) were transparent to your LOS.
Area terrain had LOS of 6".
keltikhoa wrote: Can someone explain the multibasing issue?
I do not have much experience outside of 40K and do not use IG so the heavy weapons example eludes me a bit. They stated that the models will be able to be removed so the picture I have in my head (which is likely wrong) is something like this albeit much simpler
so am I wrong on what multibasing means? I do not really see this a bad thing. I have moved enough horde armies ( including positioning as to not be raped by templates etc) to want something like a movement tray that keeps you at optimal unit coherency.
40k also uses TLOS on an individual basis. Can't kill what you can't see!
Which was a mistake and a step backwards from 5th edition's vastly better LOS rules, IMO.
Wasnt 5th the first time they introduced TLOS? Pretty sure about that...
On topic, I wouldnt mind it for Firefight, but Warpath would have issues... especially if they dont go for standardized unit bases.
Here's a quote from 3rd:
"Sometimes it may be hard to tell if a line of sight is blocked or not, so players must stoop over the table for a 'model's eye view'. This is the best way to see if a line of sight exists."
3rd had all enemies, all vehicle block LOS but friendly units (that weren't vehicles) were transparent to your LOS.
Area terrain had LOS of 6".
3.5 trial rules I believe had friendly units blocking LOS.
Back on topic -
Mantic is saying they hope to see a first draft of fire fight next week.
They're also saying it's not skirmish, which I think we pretty much already knew.
Also, that the starters for the forces will be the same starters across both Warpath games.
Tyr13 wrote: Wasnt 5th the first time they introduced TLOS? Pretty sure about that....
No. TLOS has formed the core of the LOS rules in 40K from the start - from Rogue Trader onwards. The specifics of how it is applied have varied, but it's always been there.
keltikhoa wrote: I have moved enough horde armies ( including positioning as to not be raped by templates etc) to want something like a movement tray that keeps you at optimal unit coherency.
The problem with that (and the primary complaint of Guard players) is that unless you're fighting on Planet Bowling Ball, moving around and through terrain is a nightmare. If you're having to constantly remove the models from the bases in order to move around terrain, why bother having the base to begin with?
And that's only the superficual issue anyway. The bigger issue is that either system (the hub, or the 'cram all the guys on a single base) removes any actual point in having multiple models anyway. If your 5 guys actually just represent a single entity in all respects, then they might as well just be represented on the table by a single model.
This is creating a larger scale game simply by adding a whole bunch of superfluous models to the table, which is less than ideal.
insaniak wrote:
And that's only the superficual issue anyway. The bigger issue is that either system (the hub, or the 'cram all the guys on a single base) removes any actual point in having multiple models anyway. If your 5 guys actually just represent a single entity in all respects, then they might as well just be represented on the table by a single model.
Ah now, it worked okay for Epic, DZC, FoW, BGK etc. I think in this case, your 'superficial' issue is the crux - it's a lot more unwieldy dancing in and through terrain with platters of 28-32mm minis, than smaller bases of the 6-15mm used for those games.
insaniak wrote:
And that's only the superficual issue anyway. The bigger issue is that either system (the hub, or the 'cram all the guys on a single base) removes any actual point in having multiple models anyway. If your 5 guys actually just represent a single entity in all respects, then they might as well just be represented on the table by a single model.
Ah now, it worked okay for Epic, DZC, FoW, BGK etc. I think in this case, your 'superficial' issue is the crux - it's a lot more unwieldy dancing in and through terrain with platters of 28-32mm minis, than smaller bases of the 6-15mm used for those games.
It's not just the size of the figures/bases with the scale difference. I find that when you scale it down like that, things are spaced out quite a bit more. Even still, in epic, your units weren't just one mass of units, it was a number of stands. I've seen similar with many 15mm games.
The problem with that (and the primary complaint of Guard players) is that unless you're fighting on Planet Bowling Ball, moving around and through terrain is a nightmare. If you're having to constantly remove the models from the bases in order to move around terrain, why bother having the base to begin with?
And that's only the superficual issue anyway. The bigger issue is that either system (the hub, or the 'cram all the guys on a single base) removes any actual point in having multiple models anyway. If your 5 guys actually just represent a single entity in all respects, then they might as well just be represented on the table by a single model.
This is creating a larger scale game simply by adding a whole bunch of superfluous models to the table, which is less than ideal.
Ahh thank you, I begin to see the issue.
I have not played KoW but i have read the rules and as i understand it each model in a unit (other than special models) is basically just a wound counter, or max HP counter so to speak. this would not exactly be desirable to me but it would not necessarily be a deal breaker. It would allow opportunities to make scenic filler count as models similar to those done with WHF to make some cool display move trays, and there are many truly awesome looking ones of those around on dakka dakka. for example
If it makes the game play better, I'm all for multibases. Moving buckets of infantry around is a chore. Trying to get individual multibases into cover could be an issue, I'd be stupid to argue that. As with most rulesets, I'd really have to get this all down on the table and throw some dice at it before I can say one way or another if I like it. I'm willing to toss mantic ~$50 for the books (and really less than that if I get the bigger pledge full of models that I actively want) ahead of time on the hope that I'll like it. If I don't, nice bookshelf material at a bargain price lol
I will say though, as to the models being superfluous. That's just bs. At least as far as I'm concerned. I mean, you don't need those models, no. I'm not arguing that. You could just use one model, sure, though there are probably better rulesets if you really want to skirmish like that... but I'm talking about aesthetics. I don't want to play a game with a single model representing five, or hell, card counters instead of troopers. I want my five guys out there, even if them getting shot individually doesn't matter, even if they all shoot with one profile like they were a monstrous creature. From a painting and modeling standpoint (and my biggest hook for any hobby game) I want all of my guys. I play 28mm miniatures games because I like to paint the minis. I don't necessarily care if a specific dude gets shot by a specific other dude across the table, especially not when we both have closing with a hundred of them... but I do care that all of my guys are represented.
Mantic seems to think the multibase thing is the best way to do that with their ruleset, I'm gonna give them the benefit of the doubt and hope I don't get burned. Totally cool if others don't want to though.
Metal jetpack dwarfs are a conundrum. I don't need that many more forge fathers though I dunno if I want to spend $15 to upgrade 5 of my 10. Tricky prospect, they do look cool though.
MLaw wrote: Alex, you replied without exclamation marks, you're not the people I'm talking about.
As an aside..
If you were to be content with this.. or.. whatever the produced from the feedback of the people who weren't happy, then is there a problem with people who aren't happy giving feedback? What I was getting at is, there is a subset who attacks people for not liking the products rather than simply recognizing that some people like it and some don't. If people who would like to see something changed are not allowed to speak up, then how is Mantic supposed to further their product lines?
Again.. your response is mature and allows for the two of us to have differing opinions. That's not what I've found on the Mantic boards.
I've barely looked at rules for Warpath, but I'm a huge Enforcer nut. I'm in for those minis, and I think the drop ships are gorgeous. I've definitely raised my voice that the Basilean sisters are terribad, and MAAs need serious help, so I'm willing to call out if they screw up. But with TONS of people continuing to back them, and a small group of consistent people being upset, is their business model really that bad? It feels like the same argument with GW. You can't please everyone, and everyone should vote with their wallets. If you hate something, please, vote by not buying it (and offer constructive criticism of able). But don't assume just because you don't like something it's absolute crap.
I don't care a whit about the Veer'Myn. I won't say they're awful. Just that I don't care. And I won't support that product line. Pretty cut and dried really. But I will support the hell out of the Enforcer line. They're pretty much my favorite sci-fi troops on the market.
Honestly I like skirmish games more than anything right now. The Pulp Alley rules, for instance, let me put maybe 4-10 dudes on the table and they're fast and fun while supporting basically anything I want to use. But I buy a lot of models. And I used to have much fun with 40k/whfb back in the day so part of me still likes dragging out all the boys at once.
I don't think I'll be terribly put out by having my 5 models represent one unit. But time will tell.
Except all five models in a team do still matter, because while you measure your range and LoSfrom your hub, you measure to any of the models in the opposing unit.
Is it really largely any different from 40K? You roll your whole unit's attacks/shots together, not each guy one a time (unless different weapons), and some might be out of range or LoS, but generally speaking, 10 Imperial dudesmen are rolling 10 dice. Isn't the whole point of Mantic's games to be faster, more streamlined than GW's? It's mostly the same end result, Squad A shoots Squad B, but just with measuring once instead of ten times.
For some time now I've felt that the scale of 40K has reached the point where the rules should change to resolve things on a unit basis, and not on an individual model basis.
That being said, I don't agree with multi-basing at 28mm scale (well, it does work in Fantasy, anyway), because of the whole interaction with terrain issue.
timetowaste85 wrote: But with TONS of people continuing to back them, and a small group of consistent people being upset, is their business model really that bad? It feels like the same argument with GW. You can't please everyone, and everyone should vote with their wallets.
It's not the same argument with GW because unlike Mantic, GW can say they have tons of people buying their product and not have it be a bald-faced lie. It's still wrong to think that GW's handling of 40k is good just because they haven't lost their market dominance yet, but it's flat out delusional to say the same of Warpath.
To me it's funny that the multi-base thing seems to be the way this is going but we're still seeing the previews and stuff as though they are going to be played individually.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Except all five models in a team do still matter, because while you measure your range and LoSfrom your hub, you measure to any of the models in the opposing unit.
Is it really largely any different from 40K? You roll your whole unit's attacks/shots together, not each guy one a time (unless different weapons), and some might be out of range or LoS, but generally speaking, 10 Imperial dudesmen are rolling 10 dice. Isn't the whole point of Mantic's games to be faster, more streamlined than GW's? It's mostly the same end result, Squad A shoots Squad B, but just with measuring once instead of ten times. .
The difference is that in 40K, as the unit takes casualties their effectiveness is reduced and their footprint changes. In Warpath, those 5 models remain as is up until the team takes sufficient damage to be removed as one. The unit suffers no ill-effects right up until the point where all 5 guys suddenly die together... In every way, those 5 models count as a single entity.
While I agree that 40K needs more of a unit-based orientation, this isn't the way to do it. 28mm gaming is (for me) all about the models... and so each model has to matter. There has to be some point in actually putting them on the table, and Warpath removes that point. There is functionally (rules-wise) no difference between putting a team of 5 on the table or putting a single model on the table... and the team of 5 is harder to actually play with, thanks to them all being on the same base.
Streamlining units can be much better done (IMO) simply by allowing LOS and range to and from any model in the unit, and allowing casualties to be removed from anywhere in the unit, with either 40K-style unit coherency or a defined footprint radius. That way, individual models still make a difference to how the unit functions, but you remove the micromanagement that results from having to worry about individual model placement.
MLaw wrote: To me it's funny that the multi-base thing seems to be the way this is going but we're still seeing the previews and stuff as though they are going to be played individually.
timetowaste85 wrote: But with TONS of people continuing to back them, and a small group of consistent people being upset, is their business model really that bad? It feels like the same argument with GW. You can't please everyone, and everyone should vote with their wallets.
It's not the same argument with GW because unlike Mantic, GW can say they have tons of people buying their product and not have it be a bald-faced lie. It's still wrong to think that GW's handling of 40k is good just because they haven't lost their market dominance yet, but it's flat out delusional to say the same of Warpath.
Except their Kickstarters are still doing really well. Just because YOU act like Mantic kicked your dog and shot your grandmother onto the moon in an oxygen-free rocket doesn't mean everyone else feels that way. Money speaks louder than words. It's still coming in? They're still keeping on. Try harder next time.
And that's only the superficual issue anyway. The bigger issue is that either system (the hub, or the 'cram all the guys on a single base) removes any actual point in having multiple models anyway. If your 5 guys actually just represent a single entity in all respects, then they might as well just be represented on the table by a single model.
This is creating a larger scale game simply by adding a whole bunch of superfluous models to the table, which is less than ideal.
This exact issue made me really not want to get into Kings of War, why turn a unit into some sort of Monstrous Creature? However, I have now come around to thinking Kings of War looks great and will be where I spend my Mass Fantasy Battle money.
So, while initially unsure, I'm willing to see if Warpath can find a similar fluidity for Massed SciFi Battles.
For me, the miniature scale of the game is less important than the scope of the game. Making each model individually matter is fine...when it's a skirmish game or even a platoon sized game. But company level (which is what 40K has evolved into) needs to reduce that tedious level of clutter to something more manageable, and I think Mantic has a good idea with the hubs concept.
timetowaste85 wrote: But with TONS of people continuing to back them, and a small group of consistent people being upset, is their business model really that bad? It feels like the same argument with GW. You can't please everyone, and everyone should vote with their wallets.
It's not the same argument with GW because unlike Mantic, GW can say they have tons of people buying their product and not have it be a bald-faced lie. It's still wrong to think that GW's handling of 40k is good just because they haven't lost their market dominance yet, but it's flat out delusional to say the same of Warpath.
Except their Kickstarters are still doing really well. Just because YOU act like Mantic kicked your dog and shot your grandmother onto the moon in an oxygen-free rocket doesn't mean everyone else feels that way. Money speaks louder than words. It's still coming in? They're still keeping on. Try harder next time.
I don't think you're being entirely fair. Criticism has yielded some fantastic results from Mantic Kickstarters, such as halving the prices of jetbikes, convincing Mantic to rescue pt the dog drone, finally making a Brian Blessed Forgefather mini. It not only has its place in the Kickstarter environment, but seems to be expected and anticipated by the creators and their Kickstarter habits.
40k has always had TLoS. In 4th Ed they introduced area terrain, but when gamers basically played all terrain as area terrain, they had a strop and took it back out again.
Multibasing isn't functionally an issue with cover, area terrain is treated like embarking and disembarking a vehicle.
MLaw wrote:It's not just the size of the figures/bases with the scale difference. I find that when you scale it down like that, things are spaced out quite a bit more. Even still, in epic, your units weren't just one mass of units, it was a number of stands. I've seen similar with many 15mm games.
True. And even a formation's worth of stands in epic, bunched together, representing an entire company's worth of tac marines, would have a smaller footprint on a 'standard' table than a blob of five 28mm minis. (Especially a blob like Captain Jake showed. I assume that's for display, or my mind can more easily accept it that way, but even the idea of putting smaller 28mm minis on those giant tractor tires before putting them on a movement tray...)
It's easier with unit block games, representing a different style of battle with more tightly ranked formations and a tradition of finding the nearest open field, but even then I'm personally starting to think 28mm is a bit chunky for that too.
keltikhoa wrote:
Ahh thank you, I begin to see the issue.
I have not played KoW but i have read the rules and as i understand it each model in a unit (other than special models) is basically just a wound counter, or max HP counter so to speak.
That's actually more of a description of WHFB than KoW. In KoW, the minis matter even less than that, merely being something to fill up the area of the unit footprint, which is the real focus of attention. If you want to look at it so cynically, which I think is a mistake. Because...
GrimDork wrote:
I will say though, as to the models being superfluous. That's just bs. At least as far as I'm concerned. I mean, you don't need those models, no. I'm not arguing that. You could just use one model, sure, though there are probably better rulesets if you really want to skirmish like that... but I'm talking about aesthetics. I don't want to play a game with a single model representing five, or hell, card counters instead of troopers. I want my five guys out there, even if them getting shot individually doesn't matter, even if they all shoot with one profile like they were a monstrous creature. From a painting and modeling standpoint (and my biggest hook for any hobby game) I want all of my guys.
Aye, that.
Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
This exact issue made me really not want to get into Kings of War, why turn a unit into some sort of Monstrous Creature?
I don't know if I'd strictly agree with the 'monstrous creature' description, but just about every historical and fantasy mass battle game - barring Warhammer and it's few offshoots - is like that, focusing on units or multibased elements. And players still buy loads of minis to fill them rather than move about squares of cardboard with things like 'orc rabble' or '87th Highlanders' scrawled on them. They know, in the way that people who think that 23rd mini buried in the middle of a horde is a unique character represented by a unique game element with a unique role and unique agency perhaps have trouble grasping, is that it's all about the look of the thing. And then not just about the look of individual minis but - mirroring the game mechanics - the look of the whole unit, the whole army en masse. The grand spectacle.
timetowaste85 wrote:It feels like the same argument with GW.
Yes, it does.
pongo50 wrote:
The Rules give us variety, a good thing in my mind
I dunno. I think rules giving us quality has something to be said for it too. But we'll see when the dust settles.
I'm addicted to Mantic's sci-fi kickstarter campaigns, so it's probably a foregone conclusion that I'll stay in for the duration of this one, too. That said, my priority remains skirmish-level - I'm more in interested in Deadzone, and will probably never play Warpath, 40K, or any mass battles sci-fi miniature game. I'd never get all the miniatures finished, for one thing.
So, being in this as a Deadzoner who's backed all the previous Deadzone campaigns, I'm not yet seeing how they'll keep me on at the standard $125 pledge level, because:
1. I don't need any more duplicate troops - I got enough previously funded Deadzone figures from previous kickstarters. And all the faction sets come with a lot of those previously funded figures.
2. I don't need any rulebooks, as I'll probably never play. I wouldn't mind getting that background book, though.
3. I have no use for any 3 identical vehicles. I could potentially see getting 1 of each, even though Deadzone doesn't use them, to use as cover / scenery. A landed dropship or derelict Forge Father tank would make for a colorful battlefield element.
I could well go a la carte this time. Itunderstand it's a Warpath kickstarter, not a Deadzone one, but it would be nice if there were some Deadzone-specific bundles or something that targeted returning customers like myself who backed development of the hard plastic FF, Veer'Myn, Enforcers, etc. already and are just looking to get completely new DZ fodder. At $75, no troop-based battlegroup will appeal to me if half the figures in it are already in or coming to my collection from a previous KS. And at $75, no buy-3-of-the-same vehicle deal is going to sway me when I only want one. Throwing in some extra resin bits is nice, but still won't make me believe that I'd ever use all three vehicles.
That said, I'm almost certain I'll be getting the dwarf drop troopers. At $15 they're not a steal, but as Forge Guard they're competitive with online discounters (Miniature Market has Forge Guard for a bit less than a dollar more), and these come with the metal bits, which, love them or hate them, will make a drop trooper Mantic box harder to find at a low price. One extra sprue of Forge Guard is about the only Forge Father item I currently have a use for, so this is the place to get it.
Vermonter wrote: I'm addicted to Mantic's sci-fi kickstarter campaigns, so it's probably a foregone conclusion that I'll stay in for the duration of this one, too. That said, my priority remains skirmish-level - I'm more in interested in Deadzone, and will probably never play Warpath, 40K, or any mass battles sci-fi miniature game. I'd never get all the miniatures finished, for one thing.
So, being in this as a Deadzoner who's backed all the previous Deadzone campaigns, I'm not yet seeing how they'll keep me on at the standard $125 pledge level, because:
1. I don't need any more duplicate troops - I got enough previously funded Deadzone figures from previous kickstarters. And all the faction sets come with a lot of those previously funded figures.
2. I don't need any rulebooks, as I'll probably never play. I wouldn't mind getting that background book, though.
3. I have no use for any 3 identical vehicles. I could potentially see getting 1 of each, even though Deadzone doesn't use them, to use as cover / scenery. A landed dropship or derelict Forge Father tank would make for a colorful battlefield element.
I could well go a la carte this time. Itunderstand it's a Warpath kickstarter, not a Deadzone one, but it would be nice if there were some Deadzone-specific bundles or something that targeted returning customers like myself who backed development of the hard plastic FF, Veer'Myn, Enforcers, etc. already and are just looking to get completely new DZ fodder. At $75, no troop-based battlegroup will appeal to me if half the figures in it are already in or coming to my collection from a previous KS. And at $75, no buy-3-of-the-same vehicle deal is going to sway me when I only want one. Throwing in some extra resin bits is nice, but still won't make me believe that I'd ever use all three vehicles.
That said, I'm almost certain I'll be getting the dwarf drop troopers. At $15 they're not a steal, but as Forge Guard they're competitive with online discounters (Miniature Market has Forge Guard for a bit less than a dollar more), and these come with the metal bits, which, love them or hate them, will make a drop trooper Mantic box harder to find at a low price. One extra sprue of Forge Guard is about the only Forge Father item I currently have a use for, so this is the place to get it.
I'd say that Firefight sounds like it would be more up your street than Warpath proper, certainly!
Otherwise the $50 "gaming set" part of the $125 doesn't have much to offer you - there's nothing exclusive there yet, and it's entirely content that you would use to play Warpath or Firefight. I'm guessing that they'll add a resin Blaine and possibly a few more freebies to that by the end of the campaign.
The $75 starter armies are by definition not going to have much new for someone who has been consistently buying into the Deadzone Kickstarters, but the idea is that we're soon going to be moving into the factions that don't already have hard plastic troops. I for one can't wait to amass a gribbly Plague force, for example!
Still pretty meh so far but we'll see. No reason to drop my pledge until the last day or two if I need to.
Still not a fan of the vehicle pricing. And the idea that they don't have multibasing already worked out is a bit unnerving as well as not having any of the info for Firefight before the end of the campaign. But meh, it's mantic
At the end of the campaign, I'm sure the 'value' (quantity of miniatures?) will be there, but it is a bit troubling that key, critical rules elements are still up in the air.
40K/GW are vulnerable/ripe for the picking - if a viable alternative it make available!
Hulksmash wrote: Still pretty meh so far but we'll see. No reason to drop my pledge until the last day or two if I need to.
Still not a fan of the vehicle pricing. And the idea that they don't have multibasing already worked out is a bit unnerving as well as not having any of the info for Firefight before the end of the campaign. But meh, it's mantic
I agree with everything you've said here, right up to worrying about my pledge on the last day.
Maybe we need some of the Donald Trump mojo to help us out. Instead of "Make America Great" baseball caps it can read "Make Wargames Fun". Come on Mantic (or anyone).. please make a mass battle sci-fi game that isn't terrible.
I have been struggling with why Mantic would be so adamant about what they've chosen to do.
A thought occurred to me. They have grown dependent upon getting funding from KS versus funding their own product development.
Look at this business model.. They get our money to develop their future releases and all of the hype. They never really have to plan very much of their own funding towards product development. Outside of literal production costs, it's a nearly pure profit model.
To protect that, they've started mitigating their releases. FF and Enforcers are pretty much done, they know they don't have much more to do on them... so they're using them as the forefront. They're refusing to use Marauders because they need to have them at the forefront of the next KS. They'll say the same thing about padding out the army or whatever when truth is, it's pretty much ready now.
The decisions they're making now are based on perpetuating the KS cycle, not developing the games. If you took away KS from them and forced them to do development like other companies how would this go?
Their whole story about fully fleshing out armies and being for the good of the game didn't make sense to me but wow.. it does now.
Seems like a great strategy to me. They don't have to risk their money or become beholden to vulture capitalist funding. Instead, all they need are a few thousand people who want to spend 100$ on product that they would buy if it was available via normal retail anyway.
I have absolutely no issues with Mantic doing this over and over again considering the great deals I get each and every time.
They pretty much admit they need the KS to make this stuff. I don't think they're being dishonest or nefarious about it. We all know that there is some gaming of kickstarters as well. This isn't a big conspiracy, its just kind of the way things are.
squall018 wrote: I think you're thinking about this WAY too much.
They pretty much admit they need the KS to make this stuff. I don't think they're being dishonest or nefarious about it. We all know that there is some gaming of kickstarters as well. This isn't a big conspiracy, its just kind of the way things are.
I won't draw comparisons with assistance programs but basically, if they never use KS funding to make themselves self-sufficient then their well-being as a company is dependent upon Kickstarter. It also means that our only way of buying new stuff from them without a huge price hike (we already discussed their massive MSRP spike), is to pre-pay a year or more out. Maybe I'm turning into a crotchety old man but I prefer companies to sell things as they already exist.
squall018 wrote: I think you're thinking about this WAY too much.
They pretty much admit they need the KS to make this stuff. I don't think they're being dishonest or nefarious about it. We all know that there is some gaming of kickstarters as well. This isn't a big conspiracy, its just kind of the way things are.
I won't draw comparisons with assistance programs but basically, if they never use KS funding to make themselves self-sufficient then their well-being as a company is dependent upon Kickstarter. It also means that our only way of buying new stuff from them without a huge price hike (we already discussed their massive MSRP spike), is to pre-pay a year or more out. Maybe I'm turning into a crotchety old man but I prefer companies to sell things as they already exist.
That's fair, and you can prefer that. But they also don't have to listen to you. There are plenty of companies that do what you prefer, but this one doesn't. There's no point banging your head against the wall about it. I get that we're all here to discuss the KS, but at some point, you just have to accept the facts or move on.
squall018 wrote: I think you're thinking about this WAY too much.
They pretty much admit they need the KS to make this stuff. I don't think they're being dishonest or nefarious about it. We all know that there is some gaming of kickstarters as well. This isn't a big conspiracy, its just kind of the way things are.
I won't draw comparisons with assistance programs but basically, if they never use KS funding to make themselves self-sufficient then their well-being as a company is dependent upon Kickstarter. It also means that our only way of buying new stuff from them without a huge price hike (we already discussed their massive MSRP spike), is to pre-pay a year or more out. Maybe I'm turning into a crotchety old man but I prefer companies to sell things as they already exist.
Yes, you're a crotchety old man (me too)
But that doesn't change the fact that you're right. I'd be interested to know how much product they sell post-kickstarter. They basically flood the market everytime they deliver a kickstarter with everybody and their dog taking advantage of low-price models and then selling them on ebay or other places afterwards; they don't have a huge market because if they did, they wouldn't depend upon kickstarter to begin with so is it possible that most of their customers take advantage of the KS and then don't buy anything or little afterwards?
Kirasu wrote: Seems like a great strategy to me. They don't have to risk their money or become beholden to vulture capitalist funding. Instead, all they need are a few thousand people who want to spend 100$ on product that they would buy if it was available via normal retail anyway.
I have absolutely no issues with Mantic doing this over and over again considering the great deals I get each and every time.
Yeah, even if it is 100% true I fail to see how that hurts me as a consumer. Fronting their own money either means that a bank is getting some portion of the funds I will eventually pay (so I have to pay even more at retail) or that Mantic takes a portion of the funds from each line to do development on another title at their own risk (this means more money on an individual product line that is successful gets funneled back into that product line and the "next idea" has to stand on its own merits in front of the Kickstarter market). The only issue I can see is that it might feel disingenuous on Mantic's part if they aren't upfront about this being their strategy, but I don't see any reason they would want to create a big cover-up as the end result is beneficial for both Mantic and backers.
There should be a sticky at the top of this forum that explains why no, you're completely wrong about financing and kickstarter and here's why, because the same incorrect claims and assumptions come up in every major project thread, and the same answers as to why they are wrong are posted every time, and ignored every time.
NTRabbit wrote: There should be a sticky at the top of this forum that explains why no, you're completely wrong about financing and kickstarter and here's why, because the same incorrect claims and assumptions come up in every major project thread, and the same answers as to why they are wrong are posted every time, and ignored every time.
But people love to repeat themselves, often and loudly, on every page in a thread.
Bombad wrote: Yeah, even if it is 100% true I fail to see how that hurts me as a consumer.
It hurts you as a consumer because Mantic does not give you the product they promised to get your money. From the Men at Arms in KoW1, resculpted by an incompetent third party and yet still passed off as fit for purpose, to the replacement of the Mantica world map in KoW2 with a different product entirely, Mantic has proven that they cannot be trusted to fulfill preorders adequately. If they promise to sell you a certain product, wait until they actually make the damn thing so you know what you're getting, then buy it.
And I feel terrible for all three backers who actually gave a feth about a print of a map which would be more convenient to print and reprint from the PDF for each campaign anyway.
Yes they could have been a little more careful about that one but really, almost noone gave a flying feth about that map until they weren't going to get quite specifically that thing they didn't give a feth about to begin with.
Now that MaA debacle I agree - but that one's been a while and they've shown substantial improvement as far as quality goes. Worst model produced from a KS by a long shot was that megagolem thing, and even that wasn't anywhere near MaA awful, just awfully meh.
That's some deal for the jetbikes even better than the DZI offer but I have 8 coming and more Striders than I know what to do with so just the characters for me.
They'll hopefully have the 20 for $20 for the new HiPS sets as I need 60 3rd Gens (at least )
MLaw wrote: The decisions they're making now are based on perpetuating the KS cycle, not developing the games. If you took away KS from them and forced them to do development like other companies how would this go?
.
We already know the answer to this, because they were an active company for years before their first Kickstarter.
The answer is forgefathers and marauders based on the fantasy plastics, and restic for everything else, including the entire Corporation, Enforcer and Veer-myn armies.
Kickstarter = hard plastic.
I'll take Kickstarter and actually good, affordable hard plastic minis over the dark, dark days of hybrid restic/ metal any time.
I'd say that Firefight sounds like it would be more up your street than Warpath proper, certainly!
The $75 starter armies are by definition not going to have much new for someone who has been consistently buying into the Deadzone Kickstarters, but the idea is that we're soon going to be moving into the factions that don't already have hard plastic troops. I for one can't wait to amass a gribbly Plague force, for example!
Yeah, Firefight is an outside possibility. I'm definitely going to be buying some Plague plastic 3rd gen sprues too, but probably individually. A $75 battleforce with a squad of those and lots of pre-released Plague figures (restic 2nd gens, restic support, a 1st gen, etc.) would be a harder sell for me, as there aren't any I need. I went through conversion contortions getting my 6 current 2nd Gens as varied and posed as I wanted (I'm not a fan of their default poses), and now I love them, but I won't buy more.
Anyhow, none of this should be read as "rage," etc. I understand why Mantic are structuring their deals this way, and on balance, it will probably work out best for them. If there's some way to slip in some deals for longtime Deadzone supporters who already have enough of the older models, though, I certainly wouldn't mind.
MLaw wrote: The decisions they're making now are based on perpetuating the KS cycle, not developing the games. If you took away KS from them and forced them to do development like other companies how would this go?
.
We already know the answer to this, because they were an active company for years before their first Kickstarter.
The answer is forgefathers and marauders based on the fantasy plastics, and restic for everything else, including the entire Corporation, Enforcer and Veer-myn armies.
Kickstarter = hard plastic.
I'll take Kickstarter and actually good, affordable hard plastic minis over the dark, dark days of hybrid restic/ metal any time.
Don't you realize Squig that when one must take an anti-Mantic position they must contort themselves in all manner of strange shapes in order to justify their beliefs
"Oh the glory days of restic! Those were the days! Not this hard plastic nonsense now! Mantic... almost"
MLaw wrote: The decisions they're making now are based on perpetuating the KS cycle, not developing the games. If you took away KS from them and forced them to do development like other companies how would this go?
.
We already know the answer to this, because they were an active company for years before their first Kickstarter.
The answer is forgefathers and marauders based on the fantasy plastics, and restic for everything else, including the entire Corporation, Enforcer and Veer-myn armies.
Kickstarter = hard plastic.
I'll take Kickstarter and actually good, affordable hard plastic minis over the dark, dark days of hybrid restic/ metal any time.
Don't you realize Squig that when one must take an anti-Mantic position they must contort themselves in all manner of strange shapes in order to justify their beliefs
"Oh the glory days of restic! Those were the days! Not this hard plastic nonsense now! Mantic... almost"
Mantic shouldn't use Kickstarter to fund hard plastic models
gets replaced by
Mantic shouldn't produce these gakky pvc restic models, where's the hard plastic
MLaw wrote: The decisions they're making now are based on perpetuating the KS cycle, not developing the games. If you took away KS from them and forced them to do development like other companies how would this go?
.
We already know the answer to this, because they were an active company for years before their first Kickstarter.
The answer is forgefathers and marauders based on the fantasy plastics, and restic for everything else, including the entire Corporation, Enforcer and Veer-myn armies.
Kickstarter = hard plastic.
I'll take Kickstarter and actually good, affordable hard plastic minis over the dark, dark days of hybrid restic/ metal any time.
Don't you realize Squig that when one must take an anti-Mantic position they must contort themselves in all manner of strange shapes in order to justify their beliefs
"Oh the glory days of restic! Those were the days! Not this hard plastic nonsense now! Mantic... almost"
There are lots of reasons to dump on Mantic, not least because it's easy fun, but there is also a genuine reason to keep up the critiques. I still see every mantic kickstarter as some sort of haggle in a third world bazaar.
"$30 for a dropship? You must be meshuggeh. What would the retail price be? Well, $75 for three is better, but I'm still not convinced. Remember when you tried to sell jetbikes for $10 each? It was a shonda, stealing from us like a gonif. Two for $10 was more like it. But I have enough jetbikes, unless maybe you can make a better deal..?"
Playing in a Mantic kickstarter is like buying a used car. You can't back down or give an inch if you want to walk away happy.
Plus, how can we get Mantic to improve themselves if we don't stand over their shoulders constantly asking, "why you no doctor yet?" We do it out of love, and probably some deeply disturbing emotional issues.
PS: I paid cash monies for the DS adventure books in paper form, but that never happened, either. Now I'll be getting a Valandor mini who looks very different from his original sketch. I wonder where the Mantic roulette wheel will stop spinning in the WP pledge manager phase.
NTRabbit wrote: There should be a sticky at the top of this forum that explains why no, you're completely wrong about financing and kickstarter and here's why, because the same incorrect claims and assumptions come up in every major project thread, and the same answers as to why they are wrong are posted every time, and ignored every time.
If the business model is that confusing to so many people, then the business model is wrong or misleading. I can call an apple a watermelon for the rest of my life but that doesn't change what other people see.
@Bob - lol slowclap bud (exalted). That's a large part of it. People assume it's just complaining but those people have probably never haggled for anything in their lives
Outside of that, you're exactly right about Mantic altering the deal after the fact. They play dirty pool so turnabout really is fair play where my money is concerned. People can label it as bashing if they like but those same people are going to be gaga googoo when the complaining causes mantic to release stupidly insane deals.
I am still a little miffed about the adventure books not being printed as was promised, and that has kept me from spending any money with Mantic for awhile. In fact, I haven't spent a single penny with them since that. I am kind in wait and see mode with this KS, but am kind of excited about it.
That being said, if you asked me right now, I would probably tell you I will drop my pledge before the end, just based on those adventure books. I really wanted those.
People give Mantic a hard time for the same reason they give GW a hard time: they were fans, got burnt, and now are seeing more of the same.
I like Mantic. They are good guys, they care about gamers, and they put out some good games. But let's not lie: they have to use Kickstarter to raise funds for plastic sprues, because outside of a few exceptions, they're mediocre at best! We live in a world were Warlord is putting out amazing 28mm plastic kits for Southern Early War Finnish Ski Paratroopers or some other niche force, while Mantic has to run a bake sale to fund a sprue of five semi-detailed space marine knock offs.
Mantic is like that friend that still lives with his mom and gets drunk five nights a week. You want to love him, cause he's great, but he really kind of sucks, you know?
I too am still annoyed about the adventure books. I ponied up for physical copies as well. Ended up with traps or critters or something instead.
I don't understand why the drop armor can't be some sort of upgrade sprue instead of metal. Set the funding higher or get some feedback from consumers, whatever they need to... I just see them working better all in plastic. Or hell, even restic.
Polonius wrote: People give Mantic a hard time for the same reason they give GW a hard time: they were fans, got burnt, and now are seeing more of the same.
I like Mantic. They are good guys, they care about gamers, and they put out some good games. But let's not lie: they have to use Kickstarter to raise funds for plastic sprues, because outside of a few exceptions, they're mediocre at best! We live in a world were Warlord is putting out amazing 28mm plastic kits for Southern Early War Finnish Ski Paratroopers or some other niche force, while Mantic has to run a bake sale to fund a sprue of five semi-detailed space marine knock offs.
Mantic is like that friend that still lives with his mom and gets drunk five nights a week. You want to love him, cause he's great, but he really kind of sucks, you know?
Warlord is a £4 million dollar company. And I _wish_ they were producing Finns in plastic. The most recent kit is German Paratroopers. There's not even Italians or British Expeditionary Force in plastic. It also helps they've partnered with Italeri for vehicle production.
And I don't think anyone thinks anything other than Mantic is a Kickstarter company. As Squig pointed out, we can have them be a Kickstarter company and get cheap hard plastic stuff, or we get restic core troops.
It also comes down to perspective. At this point in my life, my brain is oversaturated with Space Marines, so I hate them. I hate the design, I hate the models. They're fething stupid looking. So the Enforcers plastics look several orders of magnitude better to me than gakky old Space Marines that I've been exposed to for 20+ years. So, feth yeah, give me a Kickstarter to produce cheap plastic sci fi models that are much, much, much better than Space Marines.
judgedoug wrote:
Mantic shouldn't use Kickstarter to fund hard plastic models
gets replaced by
Mantic shouldn't produce these gakky pvc restic models, where's the hard plastic
Yeah, 'cos nobody ever started or maintained a range of HIPS kits without causing themselves to be tethered to Kickstarter and jumping through the bizarre hoops that it, or the business, or the funders, demand.
Funding hard plastic models through KS isn't the problem though: in my eyes, at least, it's the Defiance-style shenanigans that come to light and that we get hints and suspicions about, and the attitude of pulling up the ladder after each campaign and screw anyone who didn't splurge on it. A lack of restic doesn't really change that. You'd have to, I dunno, contort into strange shapes to make the issues all about restic.
Polonius wrote: People give Mantic a hard time for the same reason they give GW a hard time: they were fans, got burnt, and now are seeing more of the same.
I like Mantic. They are good guys, they care about gamers, and they put out some good games. But let's not lie: they have to use Kickstarter to raise funds for plastic sprues, because outside of a few exceptions, they're mediocre at best! We live in a world were Warlord is putting out amazing 28mm plastic kits for Southern Early War Finnish Ski Paratroopers or some other niche force, while Mantic has to run a bake sale to fund a sprue of five semi-detailed space marine knock offs.
Mantic is like that friend that still lives with his mom and gets drunk five nights a week. You want to love him, cause he's great, but he really kind of sucks, you know?
That pretty much sums up my feelings, thanks.
How many KSs has Warlord ran? Oh, yeah. Somehow they're able to fund plastic kits without the need to panhandle on the corner and I don't think it's unfair to ask why that is. The incessant KSs just tell me that they are completely unable to fund or expand their own enterprise through sale of existing product which in turn tells me that nobody's buying. If nobody's buying post-kickstarter, they have bigger issues than restic vs HIPS. They have enough existing products to expand their product line if they were actually selling sufficient volume to do so.
You don't need a PHD in Econ to understand that your cousin goes to the paycheck loan place because his expenses outweigh his income.
agnosto wrote: How many KSs has Warlord ran? Oh, yeah. Somehow they're able to fund plastic kits without the need to panhandle on the corner and I don't think it's unfair to ask why that is.
Massive start-up capital funded their initial releases, but there was a dead period in early 2012 until the runaway success of Bolt Action has caused their company to grow 40% in the past year.
So Mantic is a Kickstarter company. Like Mierce and many others. /shrug
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Vermis wrote: it's the Defiance-style shenanigans that come to light and that we get hints and suspicions about, and the attitude of pulling up the ladder after each campaign and screw anyone who didn't splurge like an addict on it.
What.... are you talking about? I literally don't understand what you mean by this.
Vermis wrote: it's the Defiance-style shenanigans that come to light and that we get hints and suspicions about, and the attitude of pulling up the ladder after each campaign and screw anyone who didn't splurge like an addict on it.
What.... are you talking about? I literally don't understand what you mean by this.
I think he means that Mantic blew up the St Louis arch.
I do worry about Mantic's position as a profitable company. By using Kickstarter they have massive spikes in income one or two times a year which is supplemented by the 1/2 times they have a major release such as KOW 2/ Dungeon Saga. Then KS skim x amount from the top of that. I really wonder how much they are selling the rest of the year, especially when they deliver KS packages with tens of miniatures that will probably never get painted, as some posters on here have admitted to. You also see a lot of people using their rules, but not their miniatures, is selling one £20 odd rulebook every few years between updates a viable business model?The paucity of non-KS backed releases is a concern, say 6 such releases a year would help spark interest in the product and company as well as bringing in more income.
That said having backed no Mantic KS since Deadzone 1, the options this time round have me very interested in potentially backing it this time round.
Vermis wrote: it's the Defiance-style shenanigans that come to light and that we get hints and suspicions about, and the attitude of pulling up the ladder after each campaign and screw anyone who didn't splurge like an addict on it.
What.... are you talking about? I literally don't understand what you mean by this.
I think he means that Mantic blew up the St Louis arch.
Chortle!
I assume "Defiance" implies that Mantic is run with the same level of incompetence and malicious intent to defraud that Tony Reidy brings to the table? This is despite delivering on millions of dollars of Kickstarters now, of course
I'm still trying to figure out the "Pulling up the ladder after each campaign and screw anyone who didn't splurge like an addict on it" part
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: I do worry about Mantic's position as a profitable company. By using Kickstarter they have massive spikes in income one or two times a year which is supplemented by the 1/2 times they have a major release such as KOW 2/ Dungeon Saga. Then KS skim x amount from the top of that. I really wonder how much they are selling the rest of the year, especially when they deliver KS packages with tens of miniatures that will probably never get painted, as some posters on here have admitted to. You also see a lot of people using their rules, but not their miniatures, is selling one £20 odd rulebook every few years between updates a viable business model?The paucity of non-KS backed releases is a concern, say 6 such releases a year would help spark interest in the product and company as well as bringing in more income.
That said having backed no Mantic KS since Deadzone 1, the options this time round have me very interested in potentially backing it this time round.
We know that Mantic makes money, Deadzone is now in it's 5th(6th?) printing, at 10,000 copies per printing. Kings of War retail books AND the army sets are selling - out of stock now - waiting on restocks and reships to distributors. Dungeon Saga has apparently presold very well to retailers at least through Golden Distribution in the USA.
agnosto wrote:The incessant KSs just tell me that they are completely unable to fund or expand their own enterprise through sale of existing product which in turn tells me that nobody's buying. If nobody's buying post-kickstarter, they have bigger issues than restic vs HIPS. They have enough existing products to expand their product line if they were actually selling sufficient volume to do so.
judgedoug wrote:there was a dead period in early 2012 until the runaway success of Bolt Action has caused their company to grow 40% in the past year.
Yyyup. Then WG were selling sufficient volume to fund or expand their own enterprise. It suggests that, despite Mantic being the latest heir to GW, they haven't really had their own runaway success. Lots of people use their old WHFB minis with Mantic's free-to-download fantasy battle rules, and from what I gather people have snapped up loads of cheap KS-bargain DZ minis for a game that only needs a handful. Where's the follow-on sales and sustainable profit with that? Will Warpath and Firefight be that runaway success? I don't know. Might be. I think they'd need to be better than what has already been hinted (or hasn't, as the case may be) for that to happen.
So Mantic is a Kickstarter company. Like Mierce and many others. /shrug
Shrugging doesn't make it a good or indifferent thing, though. Doesn't automatically make it a bad thing either, but, well, /shrug.
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Vermis wrote: it's the Defiance-style shenanigans that come to light and that we get hints and suspicions about, and the attitude of pulling up the ladder after each campaign and screw anyone who didn't splurge like an addict on it.
What.... are you talking about? I literally don't understand what you mean by this.
Things that have already been mentioned in this thread. Terrible resculpts; minis that don't end up like their concept sketches; punters funding rulesets that have unfinished, questionable mechanics (and no ironclad guarantee they'll be ironed out) or that don't even have a first draft yet; the markups on post-KS retail minis; the suspicion some have that some of these kickstarters are needed to fund the previous project, and so on. It'd be nice to be able to /shrug all that off whenever the next chunky render is posted, but to be honest I'd like to see a few more consistent, reliable products out of Mantic before I can do that.
MLaw wrote: @Bob - lol slowclap bud (exalted). That's a large part of it. People assume it's just complaining but those people have probably never haggled for anything in their lives
I used to be like that. I never liked making a fuss. But having worked in retail and seeing just how much cushioning companies put into their prices and practices in anticipation of customer service, it makes me realize just how much I was losing out by not being a squeaky wheel. We've seen how Mantic Kickstarter campaigns play out, and it would be sheer gullibility to assume Mantic are not strengthening their 'game' in anticipation of ours. I like Mantic's employees and think they are great people, but the company itself would be the type of friend you don't loan gas money to.
Outside of that, you're exactly right about Mantic altering the deal after the fact. They play dirty pool so turnabout really is fair play where my money is concerned. People can label it as bashing if they like but those same people are going to be gaga googoo when the complaining causes mantic to release stupidly insane deals.
Mantic really does paint a pretty target on themselves sometimes.
And also wasn't Mars Attacks a very good seller initially as well?
I am very happy that Mantic exist, and hope they continue to do so as it is good to have more competition in the market. I guess the successes of their KS projects has, if anything, dissuaded them from a more traditional miniature release schedule.
As DaveC suggests this is probably the wrong place for me to have brought it up.
That just leaves me waiting for the HIPS Plague Infantry, it looks like a great kit.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I too am still annoyed about the adventure books. I ponied up for physical copies as well. Ended up with traps or critters or something instead.
I don't understand why the drop armor can't be some sort of upgrade sprue instead of metal. Set the funding higher or get some feedback from consumers, whatever they need to... I just see them working better all in plastic. Or hell, even restic.
For me, I would prefer if Mantic released everything they are making in metal in restic instead. Restic works for that kind of limited number kind of thing, such as upgrade pieces, large monsters or rare elites.
Vermis wrote: It suggests that, despite Mantic being the latest heir to GW,
This is interesting, because, other than very specifically taking shots at GW with Kings of War v2, this hasn't been an official line from Mantic. Other people have made the claims and drawn upon the evidence that Mantic is filling the gaps left by GW shrinking from the market... but that would imply that making the above statement is literally just contradicting what other random people have said.
So Mantic is a Kickstarter company. Like Mierce and many others. /shrug
Shrugging doesn't make it a good or indifferent thing, though. Doesn't automatically make it a bad thing either, but, well, /shrug.
Right, being a KS company or not doesn't really have any bearing, especially, as has been pointed out, we don't know Mantic's sales other than a few targeted items. Maybe KS accounts for 10% of their revenue? Maybe 90%? Does anyone know? Or is it just random speculation?
Vermis wrote: it's the Defiance-style shenanigans that come to light and that we get hints and suspicions about, and the attitude of pulling up the ladder after each campaign and screw anyone who didn't splurge like an addict on it.
What.... are you talking about? I literally don't understand what you mean by this.
Things that have already been mentioned in this thread. Terrible resculpts; minis that don't end up like their concept sketches; punters funding rulesets that have unfinished, questionable mechanics (and no ironclad guarantee they'll be ironed out) or that don't even have a first draft yet; the markups on post-KS retail minis; the suspicion some have that some of these kickstarters are needed to fund the previous project, and so on. It'd be nice to be able to /shrug all that off whenever the next chunky render is posted, but to be honest I'd like to see a few more consistent, reliable products out of Mantic before I can do that.
Since we're on subjectivity, I can relate that I've backed Kings of War 1, Dreadball, Deadzone, Mars Attacks, Xtreme for like $1 maybe, Deadzone 2, Kings of War 2. I've been overall very happy with the amount of stuff and entertainment I've gotten out of the stuff I received (especially KoW 1, which reignited my love for massed combat after my sweet darling WHFB6/7 was a fading memory). So my experience has been very good overall. Myself and my group have not had a misfire with Mantic when it comes to their Kickstarters - we all play KoW pretty regularly and definitely enjoyed Dreadball and Deadzone and Mars Attacks. So I completely disagree with unfinished/questionable mechanics. I do agree with questionable sculpt qualities, but the way I get around it is not adding on minis I think may turn out iffy. If they're "thrown in as a freebie" to the main pledge, then yay. But I make sure my main pledge is something I want _not counting random free stuff thrown on_, that way, if that random free stuff is any good, then it's only improved my perceived value.
pretre wrote:
I think he means that Mantic blew up the St Louis arch.
Wow, you've managed to turn around my whole POV. I can't believe I've been so wrong. Now I love Mantic and everything it does.
I can write hyperbolic, unhelpful sarcasm, too. Despite what you people think, I'm not hating on Mantic for the fun of it. (Dealing with some of you is not much fun at all, believe me.) But others have concerns about the whole way Mantic is trying to do things, and dismissing them as 'haters' because they voice those concerns is not going to win them over or make them slink away in shame. It has a nasty resemblance to the way some GW fanboys try to shout down any valid criticisms.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: Are Mantic still casting the metal miniatures in house? If so, I think the metal rather than restic route is:
A:Ultimately more cost effective
B:Can have greater quality control
C:More reliable delivery times
Well, I said for me. I just don't buy metal any more if I can avoid it, and for Mantic I can avoid it. I also haven't been too impressed with the quality of Mantic metals I've received in the past.
pretre wrote:
I think he means that Mantic blew up the St Louis arch.
Wow, you've managed to turn around my whole POV. I can't believe I've been so wrong. Now I love Mantic and everything it does.
I can write hyperbolic, unhelpful sarcasm, too. Despite what you people think, I'm not hating on Mantic for the fun of it. (Dealing with some of you is not much fun at all, believe me.) But others have concerns about the whole way Mantic is trying to do things, and dismissing them as 'haters' because they voice those concerns is not going to win them over or make them slink away in shame. It has a nasty resemblance to the way some GW fanboys try to shout down any valid criticisms.
I am not backing this and have stopped following it. Someone may want to take over the front page. This KS has left me feeling disenfranchised with Mantic again..
I'd be happy to 'take over the front page' (as, I'm sure, are plenty of other posters), but I'm not sure how anyone but a mod would go about actually 'taking over' the first post?
judgedoug wrote: It also comes down to perspective. At this point in my life, my brain is oversaturated with Space Marines, so I hate them. I hate the design, I hate the models. They're fething stupid looking. So the Enforcers plastics look several orders of magnitude better to me than gakky old Space Marines that I've been exposed to for 20+ years. So, feth yeah, give me a Kickstarter to produce cheap plastic sci fi models that are much, much, much better than Space Marines.
And god bless you for it!
I try to keep in mind what I like because I like it, what I like because I want to like it, and what I like because it's actually good.
Mantic right now is a low ceiling company. The best of their stuff (plastic undead, Ogres, DZ Rebs) are perfectly acceptable models. A lot of the ranges are simply poor sculpts, and very little is truly excellent. There's nothing wrong with riding the mantic train. I've got a painted Mantic Ogre Army that I love, I think KOW is a great game. But I don't let my enthusiasm and my hope that they succeed guide how I spend my money with them.
Now, what I won't do, and what I really discourage everybody from doing, is restating endlessly how they aren't backing this, they're tired of Mantic, etc. There's nothing wrong with letting people enjoy the Kickstarter without turds in the punch bowl.
we don't know Mantic's sales other than a few targeted items. Maybe KS accounts for 10% of their revenue? Maybe 90%? Does anyone know? Or is it just random speculation?
Would a quick 'n' dirty poll of dakka members help? You talk about your group backing every Mantic kickstarter. I'd guess that means you ended up with a lot of bargains. How many purchases at retail have you made after those? Any significantly large ones?
So I completely disagree with unfinished/questionable mechanics.
So you haven't seen the whole debate about hubs, multibasing and TLOS in this topic then, and the fact that it's all funded and paid for no matter how it turns out, 'cos it's unfinished - unseen, even - and with no promises how it'll turn out, despite the laudable focus on public betas and feedback. (Rumours that Ronnie wants things 'just so' don't encourage me.)
And let me pull my copy of KoW 1st ed off the shelf (yes, I've bought Mantic products!)... yep, TLOS, changed in 2nd ed IIRC. And they're still talking about sticking it in games. Will it be more appropriate in Firefight? That's... questionable.
But I make sure my main pledge is something I want _not counting random free stuff thrown on_, that way, if that random free stuff is any good, then it's only improved my perceived value.
Gotta be honest, I think Mantic's sci-fi stuff has generally been much better than their fantasy ranges, but if the hypothetical random stuff I got was in line with the old MaA or Sisters (or heck, even some of the cartoony stuff from their KoW2 KS. It just doesn't speak to me) I don't know if I'd count it as added value.
Otherwise, bully that the KSs worked out well for you. Like I said, I guess I want something different, a little more confidence in an existing, proven product (past performance is no indication and all that) without feeling that I'm missing out - on discounts or better prices, at least - if I don't gamble and spend big on a limited-time offer. As has been said about GW recently, I guess I'm just not the kind of customer Mantic wants. Or am I?
Vermis wrote: Would a quick 'n' dirty poll of dakka members help? You talk about your group backing every Mantic kickstarter. I'd guess that means you ended up with a lot of bargains. How many purchases at retail have you made after those? Any significantly large ones?
This wouldn't actually help at all just generate more guesses and assumptions. Dakka backers would end up being 5-10% of the backers already backing and with the poll maybe 40 people might respond. That isn't enough of a sample to even get a good gauge of a retail market.
I'll believe they are making solid post-KS sales when I start to see any of their product available for sale in even 1 of the 8 game stores around where I live.
Hulksmash wrote: I'll believe they are making solid post-KS sales when I start to see any of their product available for sale in even 1 of the 8 game stores around where I live.
Even that is still too small of a sample size as well as it will be dependent on what distributors they are using as well as players in the area, which isn't necessarily indicative of the market. They are a EU company and I believe you are in the US like me.
Out of the 5 game stores in my area, 3 of them carry their products. To be fair two of them are mostly a magic based store with the emphasis more on board games. The main miniatures gaming store I frequent though does have all their products on the shelves even Warpath. It however doesn't have any Infinity miniatures (which would rather see there) but Infinity is more focused at 2 other stores instead, which doesn't have Warpath but does KoW and Deadzone.
pretre wrote:
I think he means that Mantic blew up the St Louis arch.
Wow, you've managed to turn around my whole POV. I can't believe I've been so wrong. Now I love Mantic and everything it does.
I can write hyperbolic, unhelpful sarcasm, too. Despite what you people think, I'm not hating on Mantic for the fun of it. (Dealing with some of you is not much fun at all, believe me.) But others have concerns about the whole way Mantic is trying to do things, and dismissing them as 'haters' because they voice those concerns is not going to win them over or make them slink away in shame. It has a nasty resemblance to the way some GW fanboys try to shout down any valid criticisms.
Whoooosh.
I lol'd and exalted so it didn't completely go to waste
agnosto wrote: How many KSs has Warlord ran? Oh, yeah. Somehow they're able to fund plastic kits without the need to panhandle on the corner and I don't think it's unfair to ask why that is.
Massive start-up capital funded their initial releases, but there was a dead period in early 2012 until the runaway success of Bolt Action has caused their company to grow 40% in the past year.
So Mantic is a Kickstarter company. Like Mierce and many others. /shrug
I suppose so, if they're happy with being a nitch inside a nitch, more power to them I guess but that leaves a great deal of money on the table with the continual reduction in GW sales; more money for PP to pick up in that case.
You're probably right and I just expected too much from Mantic; I need perspective I guess. I still watch them but I'll never, ever back one of their KS again; I like to know what I'm getting and they change too many things mid-stream for my sanity.
I am not backing this and have stopped following it. Someone may want to take over the front page. This KS has left me feeling disenfranchised with Mantic again..
Mantic....Almost.
Bolognesus wrote: I'd be happy to 'take over the front page' (as, I'm sure, are plenty of other posters), but I'm not sure how anyone but a mod would go about actually 'taking over' the first post?
Bolognesus, if you'd like to make a new thread with an updated first post (that you can keep updated hopefully ) just do so and we'll lock this one up (you can mention in the new post that I asked you to, or just mod alert this thread asking for it to be locked and linked to the new one).
lord_blackfang wrote: Sure sounds like the PP forums in here today. "Shut up, everything is awesome!"
Well, is that better or worse than this thread being like the AoS thread a few weeks ago where it was all, "Shut up! Everything sucks!!!1!1!" ?
Some folks love what Mantic is doing. Some don't. If folks expect to be able to be critical and not be shouted down for it, the reverse should apply as well.
Personally I am cautiously optimistic, and for what i am interested in, I like what I see so far.
So, no middle ground is possible like I've seen here whereby people recognize the good in Mantic but have a few concerns? I suppose the world is only populated by uber-fans and haters, no Gray.
It's a den of scum and villainy here at dakka.. Not sure which fan is which though. . I suspect most folks are actually in the middle ground but are just labelled as on of the extremes by folks who disagree with them. I joke about Mantic because they provide plenty of easily preventable gaff material but I keep checking out their threads because there is potential and I hope one day they will have the critical mass in one project to get me to buy in.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: Checks kickstarter, sees no Corporation troopers or options, breathes sigh of disappointment whilst wallet breathes sigh of relief... departs thread.
I *do* really want to see some corporation stuff, but I'm kind of afraid they're going to botch the proportions. Just looking at the zombies. At the best there will be no kitbashing if they do make the marines properly shaped. But that's still best, and its not like the new zombies don't come with army bits anyway.
Wish they'd break 210k so we could see if they picked the tunneler or the next army to go after.
Well, the problem with being a normal person is that both extremes see you as being in the enemy camp.
I probably spent more money on Mantic product and more time giving (solicited) feedback to polish their games than a lot of folks here who think I shouldn't have a say. Luckily, Mantic themselves know they're not perfect, unlike some of their fans.
warboss wrote: It's a den of scum and villainy here at dakka.. Not sure which fan is which though. . I suspect most folks are actually in the middle ground but are just labelled as on of the extremes by folks who disagree with them. I joke about Mantic because they provide plenty of easily preventable gaff material but I keep checking out their threads because there is potential and I hope one day they will have the critical mass in one project to get me to buy in.
Don't you realize Squig that when one must take an anti-Mantic position they must contort themselves in all manner of strange shapes in order to justify their beliefs
"Oh the glory days of restic! Those were the days! Not this hard plastic nonsense now! Mantic... almost"
Sad as it is, Restic appears to be the better medium for some models. Ogre-Troll-Golem sized models that don't suffer as much from shrinkage. etc - especially those that are not over-detailed. The problem is that Mantic went all-in on Restic for everything - so we all got way too many small and fiddly models, with mould lines across faces in what is a pretty awful material for things like that - which resulted in so much backlash that they've cut it out entirely and to offer it again, even for material-appropriate figures like that huge golem for KoW would result in more backlash from consumers who they managed to turn off the material entirely. (And yeah, that is their own fault).
Obviously hard plastic is the best solution for their mass-produced models, but metal has a place for people like you and myself who weren't brought up playing exclusively with GW's plastic kits. Unfortunately Hybrid models and metals have their own drawbacks if not planned properly. Examples include the wings on the Basiliean Character models from KoW1 (good luck pinning those! Dremel included in every kit?) and now, as already stated - metal jump packs on plastic figures - what could possibley go wrong?
Of course, I consider myself to have more of a critical stance than an anti-Mantic one. We'll see what the rules end up being like, though I may end up like their office Jetbike players and just use their models for 40k instead...
