Update #2
Sep 21 2015
Death From The Skies!
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With these two goals broken, we’re now able to improve the Warpath rulebooks with new art, background and a specialist section on using Warpath with 10mm scale sci-fi miniatures.
Also, we’ve funded Enforcer Lt. Roca and included this miniature free in the Enforcer Battlegroup and Operation: Heracles two player set. More will be revealed about Lt. Roca and Operation Heracles later this week.
For now, here are two more goals for you…
$65,000 UPGRADE! Plastic Warpath Counter Set
If we hit this goal, we will upgrade the card counters in pledges of Warfare ($50) and up to plastic, making them more durable. The counter set will include activation, objective markers, 3D suppression markers and more…
$100,000 Enforcer Accuser Interceptor plus BONUS! Pick a free hard plastic vehicle
The XSM-784 Accuser Interceptor is the embodiment of speed and power, making it the favourite air-intervention and assault support craft of the Enforcer corps. Capable of supersonic flight as well as hovering and VTOL, its multiple hardpoints mean weapons loadouts can be quickly tailored to match whatever threat the Accuser is being sent against. Heavy burst lasers are a favourite option although recent interventions against Plague and Veer-myn incursions have seen an increase in the equipment of air-to-ground missile systems.
If we hit this goal, we will produce the Enforcer Accuser Interceptor in hard plastic. This flying vehicle is equipped with twin Burst Lasers and a transport compartment.
Advanced Warfare UPGRADE Pick a free hard plastic vehicle
As part of a pledge of Advanced Warfare ($125), you can now pick a free hard plastic vehicle like the Enforcer Accuser Interceptor as part of your pledge!
The Enforcer Accuser Interceptor is also available to add-on to your pledge for $30.
3
Spoiler:
Phew!
The Plastic Warpath Counter Set is done and dusted, and included free in Warfare and up.
Next up – $100,000 Enforcer Accuser Interceptor plus BONUS! Pick a free hard plastic vehicle
The XSM-784 Accuser Interceptor is the embodiment of speed and power, making it the favourite air-intervention and assault support craft of the Enforcer corps. Capable of supersonic flight as well as hovering and VTOL, its multiple hardpoints mean weapons loadouts can be quickly tailored to match whatever threat the Accuser is being sent against. Heavy burst lasers are a favourite option although recent interventions against Plague and Veer-myn incursions have seen an increase in the equipment of air-to-ground missile systems.
If we hit this goal, we will produce the Enforcer Accuser Interceptor in hard plastic. This flying vehicle is equipped with twin Burst Lasers and a transport compartment.
Advanced Warfare UPGRADE Pick a free hard plastic vehicle
As part of a pledge of Advanced Warfare ($125), you can now pick a free hard plastic vehicle like the Enforcer Accuser Interceptor as part of your pledge!
The Enforcer Accuser Interceptor is also available to add-on to your pledge for $30.
Here's another other shot of the Enforcer Interceptor:
https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/004/537/593/73cbed4b120c3da0f9d18dec74ac9edf_original.jpg?v=1442841820&w=639&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&s=279007dc08fe6de12c5d53ed38b3d97e" border="0" />
4
Spoiler:
Woooooosssssshhhhhh
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Stretch Goal Smashed!
The Accuser Interceptor is fully funded, a brand new hard plastic flyer for the Enforcers. Couple that with Enforcer Lt. Roca, that’s a lot of love for the boys in grey already.
With a pledge of Advanced Warfare, you now have the option to pick one $30 hard plastic vehicle for free. Along with all of the rulebooks and a choice of two player battle set or Battlegroup, that’s a lot of great value right there.
Alternatively you add the Enforcer Accuser Interceptor on for $30.
And there’s more to come!
Next up, we’ve got some reinforcements for the Forge Fathers to bulk up some of their infantry numbers, and some deadly new Veer-myn…
$110,000 BONUS! Steel Warrior/Stormrage Veteran Team
Forge Fathers are not numerous. By natural disposition and rock hard law, unions between a male and female are life long, and Forge Fathers have a long life. While offspring from a single couple may reach to a dozen those births are spread over centuries. Comparative to the size of Forge Father territory, their numbers have barely increased since the first forge star was manufactured and they began spreading from the galactic core. And while each individual Forge Father is a hard, muscular ball of single-mindedness, they are far from indestructible.
Each Forge Father is raised to hold the continuance of their race closer to their heart than anything else, and each must have a hand in assuring that continuation.
To serve among the Skjaldborg is the duty of every young Forge Father, and one they take seriously. Length of service lasts decades, and during that time the Warrior will learn every facet of warfare.
At the end of their term most members of the Skjaldborg return to normal life. They take with them the arms and training the envy of any professional army in the galaxy, and should such a crisis ever arise, the whole Forge Father population is ready to come down on their enemies like a hammer blow.
Reinforcements! If we hit this goal, we’ll boost the Forge Father Battlegroup and the Operation: Heracles starter set with a five-figure hard plastic Steel Warrior Team, including a unit leader.
This sprue will come with enough options to include Hailstom Autocannon, Dragonbreath Flamers, or build them as Stormrage Veterans with Magma Cannons or Mjolnir Missile Launchers.
$125,000 BONUS! Veer-myn Creepers Team
Creepers are the sneakiest members of a Veer-myn nest, the best of their race at finding secret, hidden ways and routes through whatever terrain they inhabit, and then vandalising whatever they find. Carrying cutting gear and packages of infectious materials and unstable explosives, Creepers can immobilise vehicles, disrupt communications gear, and spread disease amongst personnel. Occasionally a Creeper squad will reveal itself, taking advantage of the confusion their efforts have created to strike against an enemy with knives and pistols. More often than not though, they will simply creep back to their own lines or simply find another target to sabotage.
If we hit this goal, we’ll boost the Veer-myn Battlegroup with a five-figure set of Veer-myn Night-crawlers, with brand new weapon upgrades to build them as a Creeper Team and carry explosives.
This metal set includes additional heads, arms, backpacks and equipment to upgrade your figures.
You can also add on a set of 10 Veer-myn Creepers for $15.
Break this one, and we'll get started on the next vehicle
5
Spoiler:
Hammer Time
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Stretch Goal broken and the Enforcer Battlegroup gets a bonus Pathfinder team with D.O.G. Drone.
Time for something new we think…
$150,000 BONUS! Kickstarter Exclusive Forge Lord Ingulf Krestürsson and Padd
To the Forge Lords of the Star Realm, the value of the primordial metal believed to be on Triton is incalculable. But the first Lord to stake a claim to it did not do so for the promise of wealth. Lord Ingulf Krestürsson, otherwise known as ‘the Dragon that Consumes Worlds’ or just ‘the Dragon’, possesses a hatred of mankind as legendary as the martial strength of his clan.
The Krestürssons defended the borders of the Star Realm in numerous wars and battles with the nascent Corporation as it first ventured into the galaxy. Many members of the clan died in those early wars, including Ingulf’s father, Lord Maggnus Krestürsson, and his two younger brothers, Ivun and Bröno, killed on the world known as ‘Hellview’. To this day, Ingulf wears his beard in three long plaits one for each of his much lamented kin, honouring and perpetuating their memory. The primordial metal beneath Triton’s crust would be irresistible to any Forge Father lord, even after tithing a portion of it to the realm. But, for Ingulf, the real value of Triton is the chance to make war against the GCPS and avenge his father and brothers.
Find out more about Ingulf when we cover Operation: Heracles later in the week.
If we hit this goal, we will produce Forge Lord Ingulf Krestürsson, a new miniature exclusive to this Kickstarter.
We will include this exclusive variant of Ingulf and his pet free in the Operation: Heracles starter set and in the Forge Father Battlegroup. You can choose either of these sets as part of an Advanced Warfare ($125) pledge.
Sneak Peak: Sturnhammer Battle Tank
The Sturnhammer is assessed by Corporation Central Military analysts to be probably the best main battle tank currently employed amongst alien races. Carrying a Heavy Hailstorm Cannon turret as standard, the Sturnhammer’s intricately engineered target control system makes it capable of a rate of accurate fire at a range that is the envy of even Enforcer commanders. This also often makes a Sturnhammer a target of high priority in battle, but its armour is at least as technically advanced as its weaponry, shrugging off all but the most powerful and well placed incoming shots.
I'll probably be pledging to some degree. I'd like to throw stupid amounts of money into it but I'm not entirely sold on the rules they showed off. Get rid of the hub nonsense and I'll drop serious coin.
It would be sweet if they did a set of lists covering 40k armies that they don't have analogues for, like they're doing with KoW. I got Tau and Necrons needing a better set of rules to use them with...
I'm really curious what kinds of new armies we might see. I'd like to see more of the serious style Marauders rather than the patchwork early plastics/ GW style goofs.
Some Sphyr would be neat. Or just some plastic alien infantry of some sort.
Or more rats and their big toys. Like their tunneling machine they stole from Cobra Commander for getting under the Joe's headquarters.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Or more rats and their big toys. Like their tunneling machine they stole from Cobra Commander for getting under the Joe's headquarters.
Honestly, the #1 reason to back any kickstarter if it features that.
I'm getting more apprehensive about the rules. They are doing two sets of rules one based on the Beta set and another more focused on the squads without the hub nonsense. This is the worst outcome IMO as it means that there attention is split between the two sets of rules.
they really need to make a final decision and either go with or abandon the hub idea (and accept that both choices will loose them backers)
having what is effectively 2 rule sets out in the wild is going to lead to confusion and annoyance (especially in the US market with their 'pick up games' culture)
but i'll be interested in what minis and smaller vehicals they come up with
Well that's earlier than expected I was hoping it would be early next year. it'll be interesting to see how far this gets as Mantic's other big IP hopefully enough to get a few more plastic kits out, hoping for HIPS Rebs troops and Plague 3As (that are less large torso/hunchback). I'd like a way to get Valkyrs on their own rather than as part of a booster like now. HIPS Brokkrs are probably to much to hope for even if Ronnie is a massive dwarf fan the restic ones are good sculpts and are fine in PVC
Ronnie wants mass battles so I don't think the hub will go away. The feedback was split about 2/3 to 1/3 in favour of the hub-based mechanic. It's my belief that that rule set would also be great for playing the game at 10mm and that they should go formthatbscale too as a mode of playing the game.
Da Boss wrote: I'm mostly interested in the rules - could someone help me out and point me at (or briefly explain) what this "hub" thing is all about?
I'm hoping for a squad based game in 28mm rather than individual skirmish.
Basically you buy a unit in batches. Each of these batches has a "hub" that everything is measured from. The rest of the figures in a batch are irrelevant. You have to keep each hub in the unit within a certain distance of the other hubs in a unit and then arrange the rest of the models around the hubs. It's just a pain in the arse to be fiddling around like that when the aim of the game is to make streamlined mass battles a quick and easy thing to do. If they want a multibase game, make the whole bloody unit on a base, rather than this middle ground nonsense that just complicates things.
Sounds like they have an alternative in mind though. I hope it's more streamlined.
But if the pledge you go for includes lots of miniatures that are yet to be produced it will probably be about 9 months minimum before anything will be delivered to you.
overtyrant wrote: I'm getting more apprehensive about the rules. They are doing two sets of rules one based on the Beta set and another more focused on the squads without the hub nonsense. This is the worst outcome IMO as it means that there attention is split between the two sets of rules.
On the other hand, the hub idea feels so convoluted and impractical to me that it'd be enough for me to shrug and simply accept there's not going to be any proper large platoon 28mm scifi game on the market (afterlife is a very small niche,GoA has floundered so badly I'm assuming that it's DOA). If that's what they're going with I'll have a feeble go at promoting afterlife around here, but I'll just be painting up a decent DZC army to actually get platoon/company level games in.
I'm pretty sure I'm not exactly the only one who would simply drop out of the player pool entirely, either.
And keep in mind how much they want the 40k crowd crossover, so something that would keep folks away to this extent would be shooting themselves in the foot. Now it *is* Mantic so I'm a little weary when it comes to strategic choices like that but they simply can't go with just the small hard core that likes the hub mechanic to the exclusion of everyone who saw that... surprising... ruleset and just walked away without even voting in such a poll or participating in the discussion. (Keep in mind that a lot of potential players did just that: saw the hub-based ruleset and walked away. I'm convinced that that has resulted in a rather misleading and inaccurate poll result compared to the actual percentages of their target audience that favour or disfavour this mechanic strongly).
I think the hub system could work well for 20 man squads and such, but it gets convoluted when you have 6 man squad made up of 3 hubs like the peacekeepers.
Da Boss wrote: I'm mostly interested in the rules - could someone help me out and point me at (or briefly explain) what this "hub" thing is all about?
I'm hoping for a squad based game in 28mm rather than individual skirmish.
Basically you buy a unit in batches. Each of these batches has a "hub" that everything is measured from. The rest of the figures in a batch are irrelevant. You have to keep each hub in the unit within a certain distance of the other hubs in a unit and then arrange the rest of the models around the hubs. It's just a pain in the arse to be fiddling around like that when the aim of the game is to make streamlined mass battles a quick and easy thing to do. If they want a multibase game, make the whole bloody unit on a base, rather than this middle ground nonsense that just complicates things.
Sounds like they have an alternative in mind though. I hope it's more streamlined.
Unit based movement is excellent - the squad is a cloud and representative of the area they control; however, multiple sub units all in coherency make it way too fiddly.
Unit based movement is excellent - the squad is a cloud and representative of the area they control; however, multiple sub units all in coherency make it way too fiddly.
It's not even that, the cloud does not project any control, it projects vulnerability as range and LOS is measured only from the hub but to any model.
Yeah, the hub concept kept me from even trying the Alpha rules with my gaming group.
They promised us plastic vehicles in this KS, so I'm backing in any case for the discounted models, but Warpath may just be another game rulebook that sits on my shelf unused if the hub is intergral. It's like the worst compromise between KoW and 40K.
Nice, modular, hard plastic rebs would be swell. Not as sure how you'll get the mixed aliens vibe easily though. If they manage it in an effective manner... But we'll have to see.
Have humanoid torsos with arms, legs, heads and tails for different aliens. Could have little plug peices to go in the torso sockets you don't end up using (tail, wings, extra arms, etc).
I'm sure a little thought into sculpt and sprue layout could make multi-aliens work.
cincydooley wrote: They'd be better served doing what Wyrd does and making good looking single pose models.
Modularity is way overrated.
Agreed 100%, would rather have one well posed miniature over modularity with poor poses. also a lot HIP plastic I feel is way overrated and really holds companies back from producing a larger range for their game products.
adamsouza wrote: Alliance makes mono pose models with 12 sculpts and 48 1/72 models per box for under $20. amd they're great.
Green Plastic Army men have been around forever, and come in multiple sculpt mono pose models and cost a fraction of what our wargaming miniatures do.
Why the heck hasn't anyone just stated making 28mm army men ?
There's lots of factors that drive up the cost of wargaming models versus army men (beyond just "because they can" anyway).
Spoiler:
First off, you have a plastic (polyethylene) that is comparatively cheaper to work with on manufacturing but is much harder to deal with from the modelling end compared to HIPS. Plastic cement doesn't work on PE, and I'm not sure there's any glue that "works" well on it that can be easily worked with. I have not looked into the possibilities myself, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that getting PE to the same level of detail and clarity the market expects from HIPS would raise the price of manufacturing substantially. That the models are designed to be inexpensive as a priority, with little else given a look in, makes it pretty cheap to sculpt and tool them; there's no concern that the rifle is out of scale or that the uniform is cut wrong or the proportions are out of whack. Not having to adhere to fine details and thus not having to pay high-end sculptors and engineers to make them work makes green army men easier and cheaper to manufacture.
Second you have the scale of sales. Most wargaming products are sold in specialist stores, and it's difficult to convince most retailers to sell a full product line; few SKUs and less shelf space required are key factors for most retailers in any market after all. Army men have few SKUs from the same manufacturer and can be thrown nearly anywhere in the store so they're sold in thousands of stores. Even if every army man retailer only buys 3 units to sell, they probably still massively outstrip any wargaming product volume just because of the sheer number of retailers. Economies of scale thus drive that price lower. Wargaming in contrast can reach hundreds of SKUs in a mature game (GW, WMH, etc) and chew up an entire store aisle. It's hard for anything other than specialist stores to justify that retail space, so the mass-market stores typically don't even attempt it. Smaller markets equals higher cost.
Competition is a similar factor there. Green army men are not really copyright-able in a meaningful way, thus many manufacturers can compete which will continually drive ways of making the product cheaper for a competitive edge. However, if you want a Space Marine or an Enforcer or an Eisenkern Stormtrooper, you have to go to those respective companies. Similar to if you just want a touch-capable phone you have a huge variety of options in the market and price spectrum. As soon as you decide you want a Samsung Galaxy or an iPhone, your options and pricing bands become much more limited. You can see competition at work in wargaming with historicals where a similar "you can't copyright facts" environment exists. The need to stay even with the competition works to the consumers favor here while a lack of competition for a given specific good...doesn't. Pretty basic economics there.
Finally you have the market realities of wargaming: Not every unit in every army is a Space Marine. What I mean is that there are some units and factions that the designers and fans really want to include because they make the game interesting/cool/fun, but really are just never going to justify their manufacturing costs on their own for years, if ever. However, basing it solely on how many they sell means the price for those specialists would be astronomical compared to the general-use troops so nobody would buy them and it becomes a Catch-22 still. Not making them at all decreases unit and faction variety, which is less interesting for the players of your game which makes your sales suffer as people wander away. The answer generally chosen in the marketplace is to not make each kit in the range stand on its own, but rather to price across the entire range so that it is profitable; in other words make it so that the more popular kits essentially subsidize the less-popular ones. Eventually, some of your specialists/less-popular kits may begin to turn a profit because they're offered in a desirable medium, and that now increases the options elsewhere. Green army men don't have to prop up the sales of an alternate line.
The concept of "units" and "rules" are things that the designers of green army men are not beholden to, and thus don't factor into their equation at all. The rules are whatever you come up with, after all. It doesn't matter if their baggie has 5 bazookas in it, because there is no play-difference for the end-consumer. If you bought an Enforcer sprue that was all missile launchers though, that sprue may not be usable in WarPath, or may be less-usable than another sprue due to the rules. That's an artificial construct outside of the kit, but it influences the design of the models which in turn adds to the cost.
Taken all together, those factors combine to give us close to the price difference you see on the shelf. There's a few more minor factors at work there as well, likely including "because we can," just not to the degree that people suspect.
On the topic of the KickStarter, I'm ambivalent. I probably will back for Enforcers (since I pretty much have everything I need there), but the Alpha rules really soured me on the idea of going big. It reads like an awesome mass-battle ruleset for simulating company+ engagements; that is an area 40k struggles to do effectively, so I can see what they're going for with that. However, I don't like it for platoon level games. Maybe after feedback they've managed to find a decent compromise, but I'm not really holding out hope on that with how many other things Mantic has been trying to do in the interim. There's only so many things a person or company can do well simultaneously.
I'd have to see it with some boots on ground nearby. It looks a little too small to be something you'd fly around in firefly style. The cockpit probably only has a couple of seats and the troop bay likely doesn't have many amenities.
As a backup/personal vehicle though, I can buy it. Maybe that's the dropship that comes out of their somewhat larger freighter? Freighter wouldn't have to be huge either, the ship could be umbilical-docked/attached to the bottom without really being inside of it.
GrimDork wrote: I'd have to see it with some boots on ground nearby. It looks a little too small to be something you'd fly around in firefly style. The cockpit probably only has a couple of seats and the troop bay likely doesn't have many amenities.
As a backup/personal vehicle though, I can buy it. Maybe that's the dropship that comes out of their somewhat larger freighter? Freighter wouldn't have to be huge either, the ship could be umbilical-docked/attached to the bottom without really being inside of it.
I am actually picturing it more as a container vessel, with a single container rather than a proper hold. The 'big' freighter would be nothing more than a frame holding lots of containers, with a cockpit at one end, and engines at the other.... and the dropship doubles as the cockpit.
And given that Deadzone is built around the idea of container ships... I can see the vessel being exactly that.
The Auld Grump - in Traveller terms... it may be sized closer to a Scout than a Free Trader - but the players always seem to go for the Free Trader, if they can.
*EDIT* I wonder if there will ever be a Deadzone RPG?
I'd be interested in a Deadzone RPG... Just saying. Prefer the Mantic universe over Games Workshop for some reason. I like the dropship, but not looking for anything above skirmish size. I'm not after a bucket of minis.
Alex C wrote: Have humanoid torsos with arms, legs, heads and tails for different aliens. Could have little plug peices to go in the torso sockets you don't end up using (tail, wings, extra arms, etc).
I'm sure a little thought into sculpt and sprue layout could make multi-aliens work.
Just wouldn't work, you'd end up with a collection of Star Trek aliens, all the same size with different bumps on the head. You need to have the different sized torsos to represent the humans, grogans, yndij, sorak and zees.
I'd like to see the multi-kit work but I just have trouble doing so.
I wonder if a more monopose with several sculpts of each wouldn't be the way to do it. Or you could buy a box of humans, soraks, zees, though that gets shelf intensive for retailers. I guess we'll see what they come up with.
I prefer smaller scale skirmish games (as they usually play quicker, when time is a seriously valuable resource) but I can see myself quickly escalating my pledge, especially if they really go to town sweetening the deal.
Don't ask me why, but I always felt when Mantic got around to doing Warpath it was going to be a very wild ride, lots of freebies, crazy deals, just tons of stuff to get everyone both gaming and talking about what a crazy deal it was out in the wild.
I hope that's what actually happens.
Kind of akin to what the first Kings of War & Deadzone campaigns were like (even the second if you went Lockdown)- a very huge pile of stuff at a very reasonable price.
Alex C wrote: Have humanoid torsos with arms, legs, heads and tails for different aliens. Could have little plug peices to go in the torso sockets you don't end up using (tail, wings, extra arms, etc).
I'm sure a little thought into sculpt and sprue layout could make multi-aliens work.
Just wouldn't work, you'd end up with a collection of Star Trek aliens, all the same size with different bumps on the head. You need to have the different sized torsos to represent the humans, grogans, yndij, sorak and zees.
Well, that's why what they'd need to do is a sprue for each type of alien and have all of the weapon options available on said sprues, sort of like they did with the Peacekeepers. That way, if you wanted to go all Yndij or Zees, you totally could.
Barzam wrote: Well, that's why what they'd need to do is a sprue for each type of alien and have all of the weapon options available on said sprues, sort of like they did with the Peacekeepers. That way, if you wanted to go all Yndij or Zees, you totally could.
That's correct. You can add in some "rubber forehead alien" headswaps as freebies but if you're going to do it right, each body type needs its own sprue.
While nobody likes Lego hands and they're have to be careful to avoid them... Seems like a sprue per alien and then a sci-fi weapon sprue in the box(as needed), to cap things off...could work.
Then we'd have a sci-fi weapons sprue, preferably available separately. What a desirable add-on.
I could see that getting costly. To basically produce the whole range in a single KS. Not exactly against it but it would have to be really well planned.How many reb races are there anyway?
In any case I would still want a weapon sprue of some kind.
The Peacekeeper concept art is really cool!
Sadly I'm not going to be able to go big this time around. The book and a few plastic kits for sure though.
I mean look at Kings of war 1 and 2. They didn't make everything for the range in one kickstarter, just as much as people were interested in funding. They've already got hp infantry for two factions and restic elites through deadzone. So its not like they're going completely from scratch, though we still won't see all everything finished in one campaign.
GrimDork wrote: I mean look at Kings of war 1 and 2. They didn't make everything for the range in one kickstarter, just as much as people were interested in funding. They've already got hp infantry for two factions and restic elites through deadzone. So its not like they're going completely from scratch, though we still won't see all everything finished in one campaign.
The FF and Enforcers only really need vehicles I think. Some factions are closer to complete for WP than others and for me Rebs are pretty far down that list. I'd Imagine/hope that they will be characters or slot in specialists like we've seen in the Alpha with the enforcers.
I wonder how the DZ asterian troops will fit in too what we've seen of the Asterians.
Unit based movement is excellent - the squad is a cloud and representative of the area they control; however, multiple sub units all in coherency make it way too fiddly.
It's not even that, the cloud does not project any control, it projects vulnerability as range and LOS is measured only from the hub but to any model.
I think the idea of a single hub per unit makes a lot of sense and can really simplify all the problems around "3 of six guys in this squad can see 4 in the enemy squad but of those four 2 are in heavy cover, etc., etc." headaches that just slow a game down. The hub represents control and possible fire lanes, the spokes/cloudlings represent vulnerability. It makes a lot of sense to me.
I haven't read the rules, so I may be imposing my perfect vision of a hub system on a game that actually has to specify the details, but I think the idea itself has merit.
It forces this ridiculous playstyle where you always try to have the officer up front and everyone else as far back as possible and hiding out of LOS.
Regarding sprues, look at DZ2. It made 380k and funded 9 new sprues including 3 complex infantry sprues (5 bodies, two full weapon loadouts plus specialists) besides a bunch of metal and resin.
KoW2 made 366k and funded 4 complex infantry sprues, but given that they were selling existing product at a large discount, I'm guessing the funding was less efficient than a normal KS.
Focusing mainly on HIPS, a well-run KS can easily bring 3 other factions up to Enforcer standards (basic infantry, elite infantry, specialist unit, vehicle) without breaking a sweat.
On Friday, we gave out the launch date for our mini-Kickstarter project to fund the Warpath rulebooks. In case you missed it, it’ll be going live on Monday 21st September. The project will go live at 1:30pm BST and there will be a number of highly limited early bird pledges available.
What is Warpath
Just like Kings of War, Warpath is a set of rules for playing squad-based sci-fi games, following the Mantic philosophy for games design:
– They are simple to learn
– They allow for fast games
– They are fun
– They allow you to scale your games, from small battles to fully fledged planetary invasions!
From a gameplay point of view, Warpath is different from Deadzone, even though they are both set in the same universe and share the same miniatures range (although large Warpath miniatures like Tanks and Flyers probably won’t feature in Deadzone!).
Deadzone is a game system for playing small skirmishes where every miniature is independent, in a tight and claustrophobic battlefield. The largest Deadzone games are the smallest Warpath games, they are specialist mission going on against a backdrop of all-out war.
This is where the squad rules come in – they facilitate faster gameplay whilst simulating larger scale warfare on bigger battlefields, from just a couple of squads and a commander to apocalyptic-sized armies with legion of infantry and squadron of vehicles in support.
With the Warpath Kickstarter, we are funding two rulebooks – Warpath and Warpath: Firefight – enabling you to play Warpath in a way that suits you. Over the course of this week, we’ll be explaining what Warpath and Warpath: Firefight are, and their differences.
We’ll also be exploring what you can expect from the Kickstarter, more on each of the races, and maybe a sneak peak or two of some of the miniatures we have lined up as stretch goals, later this week.
Unit based movement is excellent - the squad is a cloud and representative of the area they control; however, multiple sub units all in coherency make it way too fiddly.
It's not even that, the cloud does not project any control, it projects vulnerability as range and LOS is measured only from the hub but to any model.
I think the idea of a single hub per unit makes a lot of sense and can really simplify all the problems around "3 of six guys in this squad can see 4 in the enemy squad but of those four 2 are in heavy cover, etc., etc." headaches that just slow a game down. The hub represents control and possible fire lanes, the spokes/cloudlings represent vulnerability. It makes a lot of sense to me.
I haven't read the rules, so I may be imposing my perfect vision of a hub system on a game that actually has to specify the details, but I think the idea itself has merit.
Your vision is pretty much the normal vision of higher-level abstracted gameplay. Having any sort of individually-based large-scale (greater than platoon) range-heavy game pretty much requires unit clouds if you wish to have a quick game.Unit-based rules tend to make the concession that the models are a representation of the area the unit controls, and the models are not necessarily static stone statues gliding across the battlefield.
Most unit-based rulesets have these in common: Measurement done from unit leader to target unit leader
Movement based on leader, unit reforms in a coherency around the unit leader after movement is complete
Majority models in cover = unit in cover; or, unit by default has cover and only special circumstances where unit will have no cover.
"Fire zones" or "fire lanes" from edges of firing unit to ends of target unit (intervening units take hits)
Dice pools for firing/firing rating
Splitting fire reduces by more than half the unit's firepower dice/rating
Eschew true LOS for abstracted LOS system (size, etc)
"Assaults" or "Close Quarter Firefights" abstracted to a short range (no punching people, more like soldiers with M4 Carbines clearing a house)
[See: Stargrunt 2, Starship Troopers, AT-43, Ambush Alley, Force on Force, Tomorrow's War for various rulesets that have used unit-based elements of the above.]
Basically you have a what amounts to a large-scale skirmish game where unit leaders are the only form of measurement you do (for shooting, movement) but individual members of a unit amplify firepower rating/dice and tend to provide a "unit majority".
These systems also tend to assume normal shooting implies cover (the "models are not stone statues and are in fact taking advantage of microterrain and keeping their head down" mechanic) unless all models in unit are in the open, in which case firepower/etc gives a tremendous bonus (WW1 machine gun against silhouetted infantry, for example)
The underlying design principle is one of "you are the soldiers" (40k, WMH,etc) versus "you are the commander":
"You are the soldier" starts with the basic building block of the game as a single model, often represented as the "moving statue" (true LOS), having individual statistics or individual rules that grant them the ability to affect the game as an individual.
"You are the commander" must, by definition, move it's focus away from the player controlling individual models. At a platoon commander level, you abstract individuals for the sake of fireteam or squad playability. At a company commander level, you abstract squads for the sake of platoon playability.
The Warpath Alpha rules released several months ago were a weird combination of some unit-based rules but still holding onto individual-model rules with a death grip. It was awkward and made little sense.
So I guess Warpath:Firefight has a separate writer. Latham I think the blog post said. So perhaps the bolt-on rules we saw for Firefight in the alpha will be different. If they commissioned this guy after that fact.
I gotta say, Firefight is a lot closer to the game size I would like to play, but I'm rooting for both systems.
Alex C wrote: Firefight is certainly shaping up to be the kind of thing I'm looking for. Here's hoping Mark Latham can pull it off!
I can certainly see how spending a year as leader of the opposition could make you good at wargaming, but I'm not sure a guy who was comprehensively spanked in the election at the end of that is the right guy to be writing rules.
Good to see him get some work anyway, after resigning from the Fin Review last month
Alex C wrote: Firefight is certainly shaping up to be the kind of thing I'm looking for. Here's hoping Mark Latham can pull it off!
I can certainly see how spending a year as leader of the opposition could make you good at wargaming, but I'm not sure a guy who was comprehensively spanked in the election at the end of that is the right guy to be writing rules.
Good to see him get some work anyway, after resigning from the Fin Review last month
I assume that's some sort of Aussie politics reference I'm unaware of...
Anyway the guy doing Warpath: Firefight is Mark Latham, formerly of GW. Not sure if he dabbled in politics down under, but maybe...
It strikes me as somewhat ironic that there are complaints about having two sets of rules for Warpath, when other people have asked for the same thing to happen for 40K for years.
scarletsquig wrote: Two sets of rules will be good, it will let the community decide which one gains traction and which one doesn't.
I think it'll be a case of 20-60 model games with firefight being the standard with the occasional game of 60+ model warpath.
Far better to have two rulesets that are appropriate for the model count rather than a one-size-fits-all approach.
This is exactly how I feel, and why it was concerning when Fire Fight had to be pushed for hard, and that even now it feels a little like an afterthought, when it's probably going to be the most used of the two.
New logo for the game too, in case anyone missed it
Mantic already makes models that can be used with more than one ruleset, so I don't see it as splitting the player base, I just see it as adding another game in a very efficient manner.
• Get into the thick of the action, using true LOS, per-model hits in shooting and melee, improved terrain occupying rules, and Warpath’s Orders system.
• Get into the thick of the action, using true LOS, per-model hits in shooting and melee, improved terrain occupying rules, and Warpath’s Orders system.
using true LOS
true LOS
How can you get fast games out of TLoS and per model hits? Additional bookkeeping just means slower game play which is what has made 40k so clunky over the past few years (IMO).
agnosto wrote: How can you get fast games out of TLoS and per model hits? Additional bookkeeping just means slower game play which is what has made 40k so clunky over the past few years (IMO).
You can't. Welcome to argument city, and "I'm going to shoot your model because I can see his foot" and busting out laser pointers. barf.jpg
C'mon, Mantic. WMH got volume right, Starship Troopers got size right, Terminator got them both right. Rules systems aren't copyright-able. Just swipe Terminator's and move on. Even Kings of War has abstracted LOS, ffs.
• Get into the thick of the action, using true LOS, per-model hits in shooting and melee, improved terrain occupying rules, and Warpath’s Orders system.
using true LOS
true LOS
How can you get fast games out of TLoS and per model hits? Additional bookkeeping just means slower game play which is what has made 40k so clunky over the past few years (IMO).
Quite easily. TLOS is as easy as 'can I draw a straight line between any point of these two models' and 'is there a part of that model I can't draw a line to' (for cover purposes), and per-model hits/wounds is fine, it doesn't slow the game down at all. the calculation of how many dice to roll is just basic maths (shots per model x total models) and I can't see how anyone's brain would be taxed just taking out individual models and counting how many are left.
Moreover, games don't need to be 'fast', I don't think, if that comes at the expense of immersion. Per-model damage/shooting ect means that every roll does matter, and there's no binary 'a unit is either fighting at full strength or dead' that works in KoW but really makes no sense to me as sci-fi. The fact that even within a squad/army, every model's stats and position and such matter is why I think 40k is so fun, despite its flaws, and I'd like to see Warpath take a similar route.
Paradigm wrote: Quite easily. TLOS is as easy as 'can I draw a straight line between any point of these two models' and 'is there a part of that model I can't draw a line to' (for cover purposes)
there's nothing inherently easy about TLOS. The basic premise of it makes no sense: our soldiers move around in static positions, unchanging their positions? Prone soldiers are always prone and cannot shoot past a wall that is above their eye height. Kneeling soldiers cannot go prone to shoot under a log, nor can they angle their head up to see targets above them. Starting from that premise, we then introduce laser pointers and now target our stone statue models' feet, elbows, weapons, that are inbetween tree branches and tall blades of grass.
TLOS has no benefits. It ruins immersion by turning our models into chess pieces, is impossible to write concise, unambiguous rules for, and slows down any game by requiring awkward positioning of laser pointers and vague arguments followed by concessions and players who feel slightly cheated because a model got knocked over and returning the model back to as close to it's original position actually reveals it's head as a target.
Meanwhile, several other systems have discarded TLOS for faster, less ambiguous, and more realistic LOS rules.
The nice thing is, Firefight doesnt have to be *as* streamlined. There are less models anyway, amking the game faster. If you want larger games, it gets clunky, sure. But thats when you play using the "normal" Warpath rules. Its pretty much the best option for them, since it covers all bases at minimal cost to them (ie, using a ruleset at a scale that it doesnt really support - Apocalypse...)
Tyr13 wrote: The nice thing is, Firefight doesnt have to be *as* streamlined. There are less models anyway, amking the game faster. If you want larger games, it gets clunky, sure. But thats when you play using the "normal" Warpath rules. Its pretty much the best option for them, since it covers all bases at minimal cost to them (ie, using a ruleset at a scale that it doesnt really support - Apocalypse...)
But why burden your new shiny game with clunky, lazy, terrible rules design such as TLOS when literally every other LOS system is better? A new rules set shouldn't just be "good enough" and that's it.
My problem with the Firefight Alpha rules was that they just did them because some people were screaming for an alternative 40k size ruleset which is the same like current 40k (which WP already is because current 40k is way too big now for its rules)
If Firefight (& WP) would be more like Starship Troopes and less like 40k this would be a different story.
NTRabbit wrote: The rules are still in alpha, and Mantic listens to feedback, I'm sure TLOS can be dropped for abstract
someone tell them to buy a copy of the Terminator rulebook and read it. And then read it again. And again and again, and then they will know what rules elegance is.
kodos wrote: My problem with the Firefight Alpha rules was that they just did them because some people were screaming for an alternative 40k size ruleset which is the same like current 40k (which WP already is because current 40k is way too big now for its rules)
If Firefight (& WP) would be more like Starship Troopes and less like 40k this would be a different story.
Reading the Warpath beta I definitely had the feeling that the author had never seen any rulesets other than Mantic's existing games and 40k. It is a crappy Frankenstein's monster stitched together from KoW, Warpath 1.0, Deadzone and 40k. No other influences. None.
kodos wrote: My problem with the Firefight Alpha rules was that they just did them because some people were screaming for an alternative 40k size ruleset which is the same like current 40k (which WP already is because current 40k is way too big now for its rules)
If Firefight (& WP) would be more like Starship Troopes and less like 40k this would be a different story.
Reading the Warpath beta I definitely had the feeling that the author had never seen any rulesets other than Mantic's existing games and 40k. It is a crappy Frankenstein's monster stitched together from KoW, Warpath 1.0, Deadzone and 40k. No other influences. None.
Stargrunt 2 should be the first thing anyone reads when they decide to write a ruleset. It's loaded with good design ideas and promotes internal balance, while including several layers of abstraction to speed up play without losing the desired granularity of sci fi ground firefights.
Mantic Games
Like KoW, there will be a $50 no miniatures option, a core pledge of $125 for books and an army - and at the end, just maybe there will be an ultimate tyrant equivalent
....how many models are needed for each game roughly.
That's how many per side, fyi, so two horde based armies - Plague f.ex - facing each other in a Warpath: Mass Battle game is going to be 300 models total on the table. Not a lot of room to breath, which is why we pushed back hard to ensure Fire Fight would happen, as promised ages ago.
....how many models are needed for each game roughly.
Mantic Games
Firefight 10-50
Think I've got that covered with my deadzone pledges, I was hoping maybe 30-70 plus a couple of vehicles (70 being a horde).
From that quote average 30 mins for firefight? Sounds rather tame.
From the dz2 ks I went for:
A brood mother
2 progenitors
1 chemthrower
45 night crawlers
2 of the big rat beasties
4 of the shredders
I thought from the warpath ks I'd need maybe one of the tunneling vehicles, maybe another box of night crawlers and another 2 shedders for a firefight force.
NTRabbit wrote: That's how many per side, fyi, so two horde based armies - Plague f.ex - facing each other in a Warpath: Mass Battle game is going to be 300 models total on the table. Not a lot of room to breath, which is why we pushed back hard to ensure Fire Fight would happen, as promised ages ago.
Ever seen a 1750 point battle between mass orcs and tyranids?
C'mon, Mantic. WMH got volume right, Starship Troopers got size right, Terminator got them both right. Rules systems aren't copyright-able. Just swipe Terminator's and move on. Even Kings of War has abstracted LOS, ffs.
It took second edition (which is really the third) for KoW to gain abstracted LOS, though...
Paradigm wrote: Quite easily. TLOS is as easy as 'can I draw a straight line between any point of these two models' and 'is there a part of that model I can't draw a line to' (for cover purposes)
there's nothing inherently easy about TLOS. The basic premise of it makes no sense: our soldiers move around in static positions, unchanging their positions? Prone soldiers are always prone and cannot shoot past a wall that is above their eye height. Kneeling soldiers cannot go prone to shoot under a log, nor can they angle their head up to see targets above them. Starting from that premise, we then introduce laser pointers and now target our stone statue models' feet, elbows, weapons, that are inbetween tree branches and tall blades of grass.
TLOS has no benefits. It ruins immersion by turning our models into chess pieces, is impossible to write concise, unambiguous rules for, and slows down any game by requiring awkward positioning of laser pointers and vague arguments followed by concessions and players who feel slightly cheated because a model got knocked over and returning the model back to as close to it's original position actually reveals it's head as a target.
Meanwhile, several other systems have discarded TLOS for faster, less ambiguous, and more realistic LOS rules.
judgedoug wrote: Stargrunt 2 should be the first thing anyone reads when they decide to write a ruleset. It's loaded with good design ideas and promotes internal balance, while including several layers of abstraction to speed up play without losing the desired granularity of sci fi ground firefights.
I would add Tomorrow's War. I don't actually like any of the mechanics, but the book contains an absolutely fantastic discussion on the unique aspects of futuristic warfare that any game designer needs to consider.
judgedoug wrote: C'mon, Mantic. WMH got volume right, Starship Troopers got size right, Terminator got them both right. Rules systems aren't copyright-able. Just swipe Terminator's and move on. Even Kings of War has abstracted LOS, ffs.
It took second edition (which is really the third) for KoW to gain abstracted LOS, though...
judgedoug wrote: Stargrunt 2 should be the first thing anyone reads when they decide to write a ruleset. It's loaded with good design ideas and promotes internal balance, while including several layers of abstraction to speed up play without losing the desired granularity of sci fi ground firefights.
I would add Tomorrow's War. I don't actually like any of the mechanics, but the book contains an absolutely fantastic discussion on the unique aspects of futuristic warfare that any game designer needs to consider.
Both SG2 and TW share similar mechanical elegance; SST and AT-43 for unified mechanics (especially SST for ways to approach miniatures gaming in a nonstandard approach), Terminator for both unified and elegant mechanics (which coincidentally draws on SG2 as an inspiration). And of course, several editions of 40k, because there are some good nuggets in there (the streamlining of the system from 3rd ed), but the aforementioned list for anyone with mainly experience in a 40k background. I'd say they're "must own" for anyone who wants to see how different rules can achieve similar results, but using simpler and/or elegant and/or unified mechanics - even if you don't like a particular ruleset, it's pretty important to understand how certain systems deal with certain aspects.
Today's blog post interesting to see the Asterians in the artwork and they have a new drone that will probably end up on the Battledrone sprue looks like they will be one of the armies they want to get funded
Yesterday we kicked off our Warpath rules coverage with an article on Warpath: Firefight, and today I’m here to talk to you about Warpath itself.
Especially in recent years there are plenty of great sci-fi games on the market, and as such we decided that with Warpath we wanted to do something a little different, and not directly compete with those other games. Warpath was born out of the desire to create something aspirational and yet achievable. It’s that big exciting battle that you always built up your collection to play but rarely, if ever, actually played. Warpath makes that goal both affordable, and playable in just a few hours with abstracted rules and simple mechanics.
This sort of game isn’t for everyone of course, and I firmly believe that creating the Firefight rules was the right thing to do for those who want something a little more detailed. However who says we have to have just one set on rules? On with Warpath!
Warpath focuses on units rather than individuals, with small fire teams the base-level entity in the game. Essentially that means one statline for five figures rather than one for one, to improve the speed of play. There are still detailed choices to be made about the composition of your units, but these are restricted to the army-building stage so you don’t have to worry about them in the middle of a game. This squad focus does two things.
Firstly it focuses the player’s attention on overall strategy and tactical choice – the game is a lot more about which units to put where, which targets to shoot at which time, when to combine fire, when to split fire, and so on. It is less about the impact of each individual soldier, and takes more of a general’s view of the battlefield as opposed to a sergeant’s. This tactical decision making is reflected in the mechanics – suppression, charge reactions, the order of activations and Warpath’s Orders system are all designed to maximise tactical choice without adding complexity to the rules. Obvious choices are the bane of all games – it’s really important that the outcome of the game is directly influenced by player decisions to make those decisions feel meaningful.
Secondly, it means that the game can be more fast and dynamic, and that players can smoothly expand to bigger and bigger games without the game becoming clunky. We had the same goal with Kings of War, and we have successfully run 16,000 point games at our Open Days in just a few hours. We want to do similar things with Warpath, and recreate some truly epic battles.
15
Before anyone gets intimidated by the size of the game, Warpath is designed to work with forces of just 30-40 figures – the mechanics will work just as well at that size, and of course your games will be even quicker. The army selection mechanics are not fully developed yet, but we are planning that “standard” tournament-sized games will be in the 50-60 model region for elite armies like the Enforcers, with 100-150 models for horde armies such as the Plague.
Both Warpath and Firefight are perfectly valid games depending on your personal choice. Some people will only play one, and will play Firefight even on an apocalyptic scale for the cinematic experience, and others will prefer Warpath even at the smallest size for a more fast-paced strategic game. Others will start with Firefight for smaller games, and build up to Warpath for the bigger games. Whichever you prefer, I urge you to at least give both games a try – you might surprise yourself!
Look out for an updated version of the alpha rules coming soon, with all of the feedback from the community Alpha test implemented. These rules will stay in an alpha state while the alterations are tested, and we will be taking on feedback throughout the Kickstarter. Once we have everyone’s comments, we will solidify the game and go to an open beta, with plenty of time to get all of the testing done to fully balance the forces. We want to make Warpath the Kings of War of the sci-fi world, and it’s worth putting in the time to do it.
We look forward to your comments!
Remember, the Kickstarter goes live at 1:30pm BST on Monday 21st September.
When I was into 40k heavy, I played IG and Orks. I was able to play these at tournaments. Occasionally we only got to turn 2 or 3 but that was almost always because of opponents who insisted on measuring every single movement and challenging every single action with ruleshammer. Most of the time games with higher model counts are painful because the person playing the horde army did not plan accordingly.
That said, I can't stand games like Apocalypse because of how tedious they are only to have smaller actions and tactical decisions undone by broad macro tactics that nullify careful preparation.. so perhaps in that type of game there's room, from what they've described though I will be likely giving the fire fight game a try before the larger scale battle system.
The old Break track has been replaced with Resilience (amount of damage a unit can take before a team is removed) and Nerve (the unit's morale).
Much more streamlined overall, and it looks like with Firefight offering the single-figure system, Warpath is free to be a proper all-out abstracted set of super-quick rules.
overtyrant wrote: Still think it's a mistake to split Warpath into two rulebooks and two sets of rules. They need to make a decision on one set and stick with it
I already lost that argument (largely because it took place and ML was hired before I knew about it).
I won the Break track argument though, so it wasn't all doom & gloom Got to write up a few other biggies over the weekend...............
^ Thanks for pressing the point there, the Break track and previous system of suppression/ team removal was a confusing mess.
Seperate stats for the amount of damage a unit can take and its morale work so much better, combining the two like KoW doesn't work with the added complexity of sub-units.
Before things like Enforcers had no way of having the same amount of damage capacity but higher morale, and things like veermyn platoons had no way of being high damage soak but low morale.
Very important distinction since high morale should help vs. suppression and high resilience vs. actual damage, combining the two while trying to have a functioning suppression mechanic simply didn't work.
TL: DR
3 week KS 2 Rulebooks
Focus on Encorcers, Forgefathers and Veermyn first new vehicles, 1 or 2 new units
After that probably Plague, Corporation and Asterians
Zzor being saved for Deadzone
There will be no new Sphyr
New Battlezone not planned
WARPATH: YOUR QUESTIONS ANSWERED
SEPTEMBER 18, 2015 CHRIS KICKSTARTER, MANTIC GAMES, WARPATH 0
Earlier in the week we asked for your Warpath Kickstarter Questions. You’ll find our answers below!
Devilmixer
Q1) how long will this KS last, 30days?
A1) It will be shorter, Monday 21st September until Sunday 11th October.
Q2) will some of the model funded in this KS get rules in DZ??
A1) Definitely, I wouldn’t expect any of the big vehicles to make it across, but certainly any new units or heroes.
Q3) are all the factions from DZ planned for WP?
A3) Where we go wholly depends on where the community can take us, we can only do as much as the funding we get. We will be starting with the Enforcers, Forge Fathers and Veer-myn, as they have the most miniatures available to form up armies with, and we’ll aim to cap them off with vehicles, and a new unit or two. From there, it’s up to the community – we’re seeing a lot of support for Plague, Corporation and Asterians, and if we get far enough we’ll be able to tackle them.
Q4) are there plans for more battlezones in this KS?
A4) There isn’t, no. Would this be something you’d like to see?
Nicholas
Q1) What TIME will the Kickstarter launch?
A1) 1:30pm British Summer Time.
Lord_blackfang
Q1) Will Plague be a main faction?
A1) Yes – they are one of the greatest threats to the GCPS as we know it, but don’t put it past us to beat them. The Enforcers, Forge Fathers and in particularly the Asterians are very experienced in fighting them.
Tony Hopkins
Q1) Will there be rules for the big gun turret from the Battlezones Defence Line sprues?
A1) We can certainly add some, if people want to see them added.
Q2) Will there be rules for scaling buildings and taking the high ground?
A2) We think this is too complicated for people would play, however in the advanced rules there are additional mechanics for how to interact with buildings. Firefight will almost certainly have it. For taking the high ground, that’s covered by the Height element in the line of sight rules.
Nic Evans
Q1) Will both these rulesets be included in the rulebook?
A1) Both rulesets will be included in the pledge levels, as two separate books.
Q2) are you going to honor the vouchers for the warpath rulebook that you gave out with warpath army boxes a few years ago? (i’ve been saving mine just in case.)
A2) Yep, customers who have a voucher will be able to go in store when it’s available and get it. There’s no way to make them apply to the Kickstarter sorry.
Drew Williams
Q1) Will warpath have a separate rulebook to firefight? or will the game (and hopefully some of the stats & rules)be folded into the one rulebook.
A1) There will be two separate rulebooks.
Q2) there has been previous rumours concerning a marine vs z’zor starter set, any news on this?
A2) This was an idea we had for a future edition of Deadzone.
Q3) Essentially with warzone we would be getting miniatures that can function in 3 different games (deadzone (if rules are included which I can only beg repeatedly for), warpath and firefight. What about rules that could be played over various miniature ranges? How does warpath scale up to ‘BIG’ battles? Would mantic consider producing a 10mm range?
A3) Warpath scales up quite neatly due to the system of building squads out of teams, we’ve played games with as few as 30 miniatures aside, and as many as 150 miniatures a side, and it stays rapid, it’s very enjoyable. It’ll go bigger than that quite comfortably. Regarding a 10mm range – that’s very interesting! We’ll have to see. Regarding a miniatures line, well, if there’s every enough demand for something, we generally do it!
Sam
Q1) Could we please have a 6 x 4 mat like the Deadzone 2 x 2 ones?
A1) Interesting! I’ll have to set the studio boffins off to investigate that one. If you’re wanting a decent playing surface though, I recommend the Tablescape Secret Weapon plastic boards!
Lee
Q1) Will we see at least some sort of presence from the “expanded” races like the cyrstallans, Sphyr, etc? Understandably they may not be separate armies, but will they have unit options?
A1) In the rules, it is likely that there will be unit options to represent some of the more obscure races in the Warpath universe. There are no plans for new miniatures for these races during this Kickstarter however.
Jirka
Referring to the Warpath Rules and the Warpath: Firefight Rules –
Q1) So this still uses same scale as firefight?
A1) Yes, both games use the same range of 28mm miniatures.
Hmmmm, the drop ship looks disappointingly small in the above picture.
Edit: What miniatures are at the very front of that picture? I do not recognise them as being from the Deadzone Zombie sprue.
I think it is good that the KS seems (initially) very focused on a few factions and the rules but I think this will also serve to deter a lot of potential backers.
overtyrant wrote: Still think it's a mistake to split Warpath into two rulebooks and two sets of rules. They need to make a decision on one set and stick with it
I already lost that argument (largely because it took place and ML was hired before I knew about it).
I won the Break track argument though, so it wasn't all doom & gloom Got to write up a few other biggies over the weekend...............
Can you get them to rename Power to something that actually conveys that the stat means the number of dice rolled? Rate of Fire? Shots?
The plague hound is new as well as they are an upgrade to 3rd Gen squads I wonder if they will put one or 2 on the sprue. The 3rd Gen torso and legs appear to be one piece that or whoever assembled them just happened to match all the same torsos and legs
overtyrant wrote: Still think it's a mistake to split Warpath into two rulebooks and two sets of rules. They need to make a decision on one set and stick with it
I already lost that argument (largely because it took place and ML was hired before I knew about it).
You were never going to win that argument, because what Ronnie wants in a game - mass battle - does not jive with what the majority of us wanted, which is platoon to company battles. Pick mass battle only and you would have lost a good half of the potential backers and players out of hand, with no capacity to turn them around. Pick Firefight only and that's not actually a possibility, because Ronnie is the boss and wants what he wants.
Interesting, so it looks like Rebs, Marauders and Zz'or will not appear in the KS.
I'm okay with that as long as we still get Firefight army lists for everything other than Zz'or, I have a lot of Deadzone Rebs that I'd like to put to use!
Will probably pick up Forgefather and Enforcer armies initially (I already have lots from Deadzone KS assembled) and maybe expand to Asterians and Corporation since I have around 100 of the restic Corp in a box somewhere anyway and the Asterian sculpts all look brilliant.
Hoping for 100% HIPS with this as per ancient rumours I've heard about it, maybe the odd metal character but certainly no units.
Hoping that both Firefight and Warpath are good enough to become my core game, really enjoyed 40k back in the day and have been waiting for something to replace it for a while.
As I am sure as hell not using my Rebs for Deadzone, they are truly terrible in that game.
I think the KS is a bit of a missed opportunity to redo the original Marauder sprue but I do understand them wanting to focus on a smaller number of factions rather than a piecemeal odd vehicle or unit approach. That and the idea of a fully fleshed out Forge Father army is very appealing to me.
Valkyrs are in need of some more models/variation as well. If I had to choose I'd take HIPS Valkyrs over Brokkrs and just take the restic Brokkrs in repacked in proper sized teams (but I hope for HIPS Brokkrs as well). I wonder if the Drop Squad will be totally new or just a Drop pack set for the Steel Warriors in metal/resin.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I hope the Drop Squad are in similar armor to the Orbital Drop hero, Bjorn Starnafall.
I like his armor, and wouldn't mind a squad of similar guys, especially if they have some weapon options among them.
There isn't an agree button big enough
Also I think Brokkrs will stay in restic, I'd say they're meant to be used only in low volume compared to everything in the Steel Warrior multikit. Valkyrs might go hard plastic though.
And Enforcers, possibly this 'Ajax' Siege Walker in hard plastic as well. To me if it were just a regular strider with different weapon arms it would share a unit listing like all the Iron Ancestors do, I reckon it's a similar but otherwise distinct vehicle, with its own kit coming.
I'd be all about new hard plastic plague stuff. I like the restic stuff I have enough to occasionally add to my finished pile, plastic stuff would be great.
Blog mentions looking into a 6x4 mat,that has my interest! A Mantic styled big mat is just what I need, decent, not amazing, but cheap.
Wonder what the cutoff for funding will be between moar better stuffs for existing armies and starting new lines for plauge, elfs etc. A lot of what they need is already done, just a few units and some face vehicles.
I'd like more 40k analogues for Enforcers, as I'll be using spess mahrines.
I believe they're supposed to be sticking hard to those first four armies right? The ones with the plastic models now, and not going for crazy stuff like Zzor or anything. A quick, tight campaign like KoW2 it was said in the news and rumors thread. So stuff for the armies in the beta rules I guess.
6x4 mat might be cool. Since I've bought a house and the mountain of debt that brings tends to keep you in one place.. I'm leaning more towards a perma-board but... I dunno... if they make the mat sexy yet affordable enough, I wouldn't mind one either.
May as well go with a 3rd try at future space ork design, the DZ ones did'nt exactly set the world on fire. There's no getting away from goofy with orcs. Either embrace it like GW, or make them srryss bzznss....where they still look goofy. Like monkeys in business suits.
The orcs from dungeon saga look pretty good, espically the goblins. It wouldn't take much to armour them up in old corporate gear like in deadzone, just make them more serious mercs rather than comedy goons. I'd definitely bring in the hobgoblins from dz as well as demo specialists/engineers.
Theres still alot of potential out there for serious brutal scifi orcs without having to resort comedy.
What's going on is, I think, that Mantic knows full well that they can't continue to market fantasy orcs with rayguns added to the sprue; but they're also not too keen on investing in replacement plastic kits when there are more popular races still to do.
I think that GW has tainted murdered the term 'Murder-Anything' forever. (Murderfang is murdering the Murderbirds with his murderclawss while in the depths of his murderlust....)
I know folks that sold off their Space Wolves after the latest codex came out....
The Auld Grump
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RoninXiC wrote: Am I really the "only" one who likes the idea of hubs/fireteams/ squads inside units?
It makes things easier I think.
Yes, yes you are.
(My group is pretty united in loathing the mechanic. With myself being the most vocal in that regard. Grr... snarl, gnash, foam. Dang, now I've entered murderlust....)
I would love some LotR style Orcs in space. The problem is, Mantic keeps going that direction but the proportions give them tiny hands and feet and they give them idiotic tech that should be in 40k. So.. maybe the underlying theme changes for them but they are missing the point of the design phase..yet again.
I was supposed to have hit quote at some point but this was re:Mantic not getting the Marauders right.
lord_blackfang wrote: What's going on is, I think, that Mantic knows full well that they can't continue to market fantasy orcs with rayguns added to the sprue; but they're also not too keen on investing in replacement plastic kits when there are more popular races still to do.
I would state that as "the potential for sales in fantasy orcs with rayguns is much lower" since the Orks exist and have for 30-ish years. Models for that faction can be had from the secondary market for probably very cheap, and that makes them a less attractive option for Mantic to invest in "proper kits" for as a result.
In a Fantasy setting, greenskins are almost like the M4 Sherman is in the WW2 market; yeah there's tons of options already on the market but you need to have one for your range to tick the box because they're nearly-expected in that setting. In sci-fi they're not as ubiquitous, and their omission as a "core" race for plastic isn't going to sink a range.
Looking at it another way, if I make a space-greenskin product it will have to compete with the visually similar space-greenskins available from numerous manufacturers. Yes, the market for buyers is bigger, but so is the competition and the secondary market. Even if the product is well-done it may not be able to compete, and sometimes Mantic struggles with "well-done" making the prospects even bleaker. If I instead make space-fishpeople, the market may be smaller because it's a new concept, but if done well it can explode into an immensely profitable line (see also: Tau...which I actually wasn't thinking of when I first wrote this, I was thinking of the Naiads from KoW). No other manufacturer exists, and thus no secondary market exists. There's a similar risk that I might fumble the execution, but there's a much bigger upside if I do things right. Big home runs then make filling in those more marginal sales niches in the range a bit more viable.
It's a gamble, but I think there is at least some business logic behind that choice.
Does Mantic still use that hybrid stuff 'restic'? I've never bothered with the Warpath figures before because of it but I'm considering backing this kickstarter.
Slipstream wrote: Does Mantic still use that hybrid stuff 'restic'? I've never bothered with the Warpath figures before because of it but I'm considering backing this kickstarter.
They've moved a lot of their products over to regular styrene (HiPS or whatever the kids these days are calling it). They still do metals too I believe but Restic is not out of the picture completely.
Upside to superglueing them is that it actually holds much better (and sets quicker, too IME) on restic than it does on metal, and that annoying tendency of HIPS models to 'sag' or split or bend on the glue joins for many minutes after you've glued them doesn't occur with CA. I do prefer plastic glue on HIPS on balance, but honestly once you get used to it (and buy a pot or two of decent, high-viscosity CA! Can't stress this enough!) it's not that much more inconvenient, actually.
I used plastic cement or whatever you call it on my 3rd edition dark eldar, and the empire and dudes I got back around 4/5/6th edition. That's it. Everything since has been super glue. Cheap dollar store super glue. It has some cons, sure, but I'm familiar with it and used to them.
One trick I tend to use with super glue is kind of an inverse pin with blue tack. Put a teeny dot of it on one of the join surfaces and make sure you're generous enough with the glue to compensate for the tack spreading out and what not. Not even necessarily enough blue tack to fully hold the pieces in place from gravity over time, you just need enough to do the holding chore for you from the inside for a few seconds so the CA (much easier than typing super glue ) can set up. Wider/bigger joins I usually go around the outside again with another layer later to help solidify things.
I think it's a slight step back in terms of strength, but it's a lot easier than holding fiddly little parts together over and over while they keep popping loose in your twitchy hands. Another kind of bonus, if one of those joins ever breaks, it's really easy to pop both ends of the join with superglue again and stick it right back together, using that blue tack again to hold it while it sets.
Bolognesus wrote: Upside to superglueing them is that it actually holds much better (and sets quicker, too IME) on restic than it does on metal, and that annoying tendency of HIPS models to 'sag' or split or bend on the glue joins for many minutes after you've glued them doesn't occur with CA. I do prefer plastic glue on HIPS on balance, but honestly once you get used to it (and buy a pot or two of decent, high-viscosity CA! Can't stress this enough!) it's not that much more inconvenient, actually.
I've built hundreds of multipart miniatures, plastic and metal and I've never had issues supergluing them. Sometimes you do have to hold them a bit longer to make sure they set but I use locktite control gel and a small dab will usually attach an arm after maybe 10 seconds for a infantry sized model. Runny superglue might have those types of issues though but I tend to stay away from it.
EDIT:
I will say that it did seem like the restic "sucked up" the superglue and normally I have a split second to reposition with the gel glue on HiPs or metal.. this was not the case with the restic in the DZ figures. It seemed to set instantly.
Bolognesus wrote: Upside to superglueing them is that it actually holds much better (and sets quicker, too IME) on restic than it does on metal, and that annoying tendency of HIPS models to 'sag' or split or bend on the glue joins for many minutes after you've glued them doesn't occur with CA. I do prefer plastic glue on HIPS on balance, but honestly once you get used to it (and buy a pot or two of decent, high-viscosity CA! Can't stress this enough!) it's not that much more inconvenient, actually.
I've built hundreds of multipart miniatures, plastic and metal and I've never had issues supergluing them. Sometimes you do have to hold them a bit longer to make sure they set but I use locktite control gel and a small dab will usually attach an arm after maybe 10 seconds for a infantry sized model. Runny superglue might have those types of issues though but I tend to stay away from it.
EDIT:
I will say that it did seem like the restic "sucked up" the superglue and normally I have a split second to reposition with the gel glue on HiPs or metal.. this was not the case with the restic in the DZ figures. It seemed to set instantly.
Ah right, that loctite stuff is something entirely in its own class as far as setting times are concerned. Try a 'regular' superglue with restic, maybe? With normal high-viscosity CA I get plenty of time to adjust restic parts. It does set rather fast, but certainly not instantly.
I also use Loctite control gel, or ultra control if I have it, and screwed up my strider because the limbs hardened instantly into place before I could adjust the pose.
With restics and certain resins, the CA glue seems to bond instantly, but for Trollcast it takes minutes if I don't use an accelerator, even though Trollcast seems to be a type of restic. Bones minis take about five to thirty seconds to set with CA depending on the shape of the join and the surface area, which seems like the perfect amount of time to me.
Ahh, interesting stuff. It's gonna set in a few seconds or I get antsy and keep messing it up until I put it down and come back later. Once in a blue moon I can force myself to sit perfectly still and count to 60 or a hundred, but it's rare. I prefer my blue tack method, for all its pros and cons.
Does that mean a list for the existing board game pieces or proper multi-part plastics?
Will Mars Attacks get a conversion into the Warpath ruleset?
Stew commented
Yesterday, 07:17 PM Yes. It won't be in the main rulebook, but at the very least we will put up a list for free online so you can play with your Martian armies
So yeah, more like stats for what already exists. I don't think they'd be able to so easily make anything new without clearing it with Topps first. Still want to see them run a second Mars Attacks kickstarter to fit in all that other stuff they never got to like the human mutant experiments and all that Jazz.
This past deadzone Kickstarter I decided to only go in for 20-30~ bucks if I remember correctly. I hope this has more enticing things for me personally. What that is? I'll know it when I see it.
I however would love for their ORX's to be reworked in the style of the dreadball power armor orcs, clean and barebones tech/armor. So sick of the savage scrap armor orxs. I want some nice working tech versions. =/
Just been told on the FB page tthat there will be no new Marauders.
Also there seems to be a distinct lack of Marauder items listed on the Mantic webshop, wonder if Mantic are thinking of dropping them from Warpath? )Sincerely hope not, but the signs do not look good.)
Just listened to the podcast on the Mantic blog, Marauders will be done later on but they wanted to concentrate on the races with current plastics to properly round them out.
Marauders may still be on the table if the funding goes mental, otherwise they will come down the line, perhaps in a mini-kick.
Ronnie did mention that if you currently have them, you will be able to play them, whether they are in the book or if they put out a "get you by" list online.
Surely, I mean absolutely SURELY, Marauders should be in the book. I mean leaving Marauders out would be worse than, well, anything!
Also on FB been assured now that Marauders are here to stay, but if they are here to stay then why would there even be a question of them not being in the book??????
TinHat wrote: Surely, I mean absolutely SURELY, Marauders should be in the book. I mean leaving Marauders out would be worse than, well, anything!
Also on FB been assured now that Marauders are here to stay, but if they are here to stay then why would there even be a question of them not being in the book??????
If by the time of printing deadline they aren't happy with where the faction is, then they'll get the "Twilight Kin" treatment of an online PDF until the faction can be launched properly.
Well, sad to see they're going at it like usual instead of setting a high initial goal that would fund a meaningful amount of new kits right off the bat. Here, pledge for all this crap you already own and maaaybe if enough of you do that, we'll make something new!
lord_blackfang wrote: Well, I already own everything in all 3 of the army deals, so unless they unlock new deals with new models I'll be dropping out on the last day.
I'm with you here, it's kinda disappointing that there are no new models at all. I stocked up on alot of these plastic kits from the deadzone kickstarters already. I hope we plough through the stretch goals but there isn't a lot of candy to entice backers of previous campaigns.
I think the make up of the army deals is why there are still EBs left. I got one but there's nothing there I want after 2 Deadzone KS so I'm hoping Asterians will have a Battlegroup later otherwise it's down to Warfare and A La Carte the rest.
I hope that Enforcer mini isn't tied to getting an Enforcer battlegroup/ starter
NTRabbit wrote: Good to see the day 1 moaning at a kickstarter getting done as soon as possible, it's that sort of reliability that I find comforting
We're just getting started
Seriously though, we all know the drill. It'll be fast and furious for a bit, and they will add to all the battlegroups as the thing goes on. The question, as always, is will it be worth it in three weeks. Buts its fun to talk about it until then.
NTRabbit wrote: Good to see the day 1 moaning at a kickstarter getting done as soon as possible, it's that sort of reliability that I find comforting
I'll do you one better, I posted months ago that I hope they wouldn't do exactly this, and lo behold, they did. Their mediocrity is depressingly predictable.
Of course, what will happen is the campaign will stall (even earlier than usual, is my guess) and they'll start throwing a huge amount of freebies in again, which will mean they'll have to do Dungeon Saga 2 in 6 months to fund all the stuff they overpromise in Warpath. And so on and on into infinity.
You have to keep in mind the main aim is to produce the new rule book, and that's now funded,
so hopefully we'll see some new HIPS kits offered as stretches soon,
but I would have preferred a $100,000 target with new kits offered from the start (especially as they've given themselves a full year to deliver this time)
Of course, what will happen is the campaign will stall (even earlier than usual, is my guess) and they'll start throwing a huge amount of freebies in again, which will mean they'll have to do Dungeon Saga 2 in 6 months to fund all the stuff they overpromise in Warpath. And so on and on into infinity.
This is exactly how they ran the KoW project, and that didn't stall, nor did they throw in huge amounts of freebies.
That actually hasn't happened since the Mars Attacks! project, clinging onto that is just as relevant as the people who wave around that picture of the miscast Goblin test sprue from 4 years ago and claim Mantic can't make minis.
The Interceptor is about what i expected price wise. The addition of the free vehicle to the pledge level has certainly added value. I wonder if there will be vehicle bundle deals. $75 for 3 would be good.
At a guess the next stretch goal will be to add the bomber parts to the Interceptor.
It happened in DZ2 and they had to put in the Lock Down pledge with like double the value for money than the standard pledge.
I already explained previously why I think Warpath is knowingly sacrificing the pledge total for the sake of getting money earlier, which again makes me feel they ran out of cash to fulfill previous projects.
Anyway, $150k fake stretch goal prediction, 2 extra bits for the flyer to turn it into a gunship.
I'm prolly gonna go in for the rulebooks.. dunno about the models, I like different things from different armies but not enough of all of them. I'd prolly just want to stick with my 40k minis. Are there not-nid or not-necron army lists? I also kinda feel like they should have done 1 big hardback rulebook to rule them all rather than 3 little ones that you have to buy together anyway.
I like the idea of the smaller skirmish game rules... but isn't that what Deadzone was supposed to be?
i think its all pretty good really. The two player boxset looks nice to be honest, plenty of stuff and the models do look nice.
In fact, the deadzone2 quarantine pledge with a couple of extra forgefather plastic sprues at $5 each, plus a two player box set from this and you have the rules for three distinct methods of play, 2 largish armies for forgefather and enforcers plus a starter force for veermyn for about £140 total.
I get that for those that went all in on previous kickstarters this may have little extra, but I think the idea seems to be funding the rules and the vehicles, so I guess to begin with that has to be expected. The stretch goals for plastic plague will probably be the bit everyone wants anyway.
I'm in, and with having so much Enforcer and Plague stuff already, that's all I'm gonna get. Avoiding the rats and dwarves to avoid having ANOTHER full army (I have about 150 Marauders already as well). 3 is plenty.
Those Enforcer vehicles are going to get so much love though...Enforcers continuing to be superior models to Space Marines seems to be the trend.
Necros wrote: I'm prolly gonna go in for the rulebooks.. dunno about the models, I like different things from different armies but not enough of all of them. I'd prolly just want to stick with my 40k minis. Are there not-nid or not-necron army lists? I also kinda feel like they should have done 1 big hardback rulebook to rule them all rather than 3 little ones that you have to buy together anyway.
I like the idea of the smaller skirmish game rules... but isn't that what Deadzone was supposed to be?
Deadzone is skirmish, Firefight is a more normal game like Bolt Action or I'm told 40k 3rd, while Warpath is more 40k now and apocalypse.
And the closest ting to a not-nid faction is the Plague, and they'll be the first new force unlocked once they finish up the three already there.
I think all told the current KS offer is very good in terms of the 2 player set and battle groups, and it is only going to get better. The estimated p and p for ROW is a kicker for those backers, but is just reflective of the real world costs given how big the parcels will be.
My main worry is with the differing factions and add ons Mantic will make a meal of fulfillment. That is just one area where they seem unable to learn and invest, and ultimately it costs them far more than getting it right first time.
Alpharius wrote: Is there anything new in the Forgefathers bundle?
And are the Brokkrs still restic, or is everything in this KS HIPs?
There's nothing new anywhere. You get to pledge for old stuff and hope you can swap it for new stuff later if enough people pledge for old stuff to fund new stuff.
Must have had them confused with the DZ1 more Terminator like Forge Father's. Am very interested to see how the Steel Warriors sprues turn out but sadly we will probably not see that in time to have an influence on my pledge decision.
Love that plastic counter set! I'd really like to buy some as add-ons, just posted in the comments asking if that might be an option at some point (assuming reasonably priced as an add-on)
Well, its five Veer-myn models with some metal options to add variety. So its not JUST upgrade bits. I get that you're SUPER negative about this whole thing, but lets at least be honest about it.
Came late to this one - actually forgot it was happening today.
As has been said, pretty boring line-up so far for regular Mantic KS followers. (But for people new to Mantic Sci-Fi, this is one of the best debut packages I've seen on Kickstarter for a Sci-Fi starter set.) But in terms of what's coming soon, I'm quite excited. Tthe hard plastic plague and their dogs that we all know are in the wings (and can scrutinize thanks to DaveC) are looking really, really good. A little stiff and stodgy here and there, but mostly, really good. Most of the old 3rd Gens actually look great if you're willing to tinker with them and mix and match other parts, but that is a chore, and a time-intensive one if you want to be precious about your conversions like I do. But those restic Plague will add some nice variety to a squad of these HP guys. That's the thing I love about Mantic's slogging through restic production before getting to HP - if you're willing to put in the extra work on the PVC stuff, you get so much more model variety than you ever would otherwise. And these new HP Plague guys will, in turn, be excellent conversion fodder for blending with chaos or tyranid bits. Even with the PVC Dreadball Plague, although that will take a bit more work to make it stay together. Plague conversions - and by extension, the Plague themselves - are about to become so much fun.
I can see the hard plastic Plague becoming go-to model kits for 40K players interested in mutated chaos cultists or Genestealer cult conversions, too. If only Mantic could be convinced to do a Plague mutant mutation sprue in hard plastic - I really think that would add a lot and be popular for conversions across the sci-fi miniature hobby spectrum.
After the Plague, my bet is we'll be seeing the Asterian drone army + vehicle, which I'll want even more.
All told, right now this isn't worth my $120 dollars, but by the end, I will struggle to keep my pledge below $300. I'll leave $500 and up for you lunatics. What would it take to get me to change my mind on that? They'd have to do something really extremely unlikely to get me into those lofty pledging heights, like a force of hard plastic Sphyr, Rebs, or Nameless, maybe.
How do you guys do it, anyway? I have plenty of Mantic models in my collection and more coming to me with Deadzone 2, and the hard fact is that I'll either be dead or too feeble to paint them before I get that lot all done. And I'm thinking seriously about buying $300 more anyway. I remember Scarlet Squig talking about potentially dropping $1,000 or so on this KS in the past, not to pick on him. Do we all buy more than we can ever use? Does that even matter? Or is over consumption just part of the way we all enjoy this hobby? I watch myself doing this again and again and I think I'm insane. But heaven help me, I can't stop! Where, where will it all end?!?
(With me in the grave, willing a bunch of unpainted, unassembled plastic toys to my kids, charity, or hey, maybe even some of you guys if you're still around, that's where.)
I won't be buying any 3 vehicles of the same type, though. One of each will be plenty for me.
Kirasu wrote: 115$ for whatever is in the boxset is pretty good considering that's the cost of a standard bearer + horn blower from GW Age of Sigmar :p
Even if they're old models..
and by old models you mean models that haven't actually been released
Kirasu wrote: 115$ for whatever is in the boxset is pretty good considering that's the cost of a standard bearer + horn blower from GW Age of Sigmar :p
Even if they're old models..
and by old models you mean models that haven't actually been released
MLaw wrote: I'm in at Advanced for now. Some crazy stuff better happen while this is live though because right now there's very little being shown that I want.
I will say adding the free vehicle to the Advanced brought it closer in line with just grabbing a battlegroup. Basically now the printed rulebooks and misc. stuff only cost $10-$20 more depending on your pledge level which isn't unreasonable.
Though I'm in the same spot and currently not to likely to say in. But it's day 1. I'll make my decision on day 19 or so
Is there an actual difference between Warpath miniatures vs Deadzone miniatures?
I'm tired and haven't had coffee so I'm trying to understand something like $135,000 Stretch Goal. It isn't really to create "Enforcer Pathfinders" in plastic because those were part of the Deadzone miniatures, it is more so just get same miniatures but get it 'free' in the Battlegroup and Operation Heracles?
Dark Severance wrote: Is there an actual difference between Warpath miniatures vs Deadzone miniatures?
I'm tired and haven't had coffee so I'm trying to understand something like $135,000 Stretch Goal. It isn't really to create "Enforcer Pathfinders" in plastic because those were part of the Deadzone miniatures, it is more so just get same miniatures but get it 'free' in the Battlegroup and Operation Heracles?
there is no difference. The stretch goals like the pathfinders are to add additional minis not create new ones.
GrimDork wrote:I'm pretty sure they will lock in my advanced warfare pledge when they add a plague army set to the list, really looking forward to plastic 3rd gens.
Ditto. For now, I'm going to sit at $1 so I can keep track of emails. I'll jump in for reals if I like the Plague offerings and/or the Asterians look like they could give my Eldar minis a reason to come back out and play. (The latter is going to have to be better than, 'You can shoehorn them models in these rules, if you like!' though.)
Dark Severance wrote:Is there an actual difference between Warpath miniatures vs Deadzone miniatures?
I'm tired and haven't had coffee so I'm trying to understand something like $135,000 Stretch Goal. It isn't really to create "Enforcer Pathfinders" in plastic because those were part of the Deadzone miniatures, it is more so just get same miniatures but get it 'free' in the Battlegroup and Operation Heracles?
It's the old routine of putting up less of a reward than you intend to give, so you can have some stretch goals fill out rewards to what you intended all along.
New stretchgoals for the Forge Fathers. I am a bit disappointed that they are going so far with the viking dwarfs in space theme. It is not very imaginative. The sculpt even has a winged helmet and metal umlauts in its name. I mean do englishspeakers even understand how silly a name like Bröno sounds?
Yeah basically it's stretch goal padding rather than look for $25k for the VeerMyn creepers with nothing in between they split it and put the Steel Warriors extra sprue in at the $10k point they are already paid for from DZI so the actual cost to Mantic is quite low - same with the Pathfinders
How exclusive are Mantic KS exclusives? Are they really only ever available to KS backers during the campaign? Or do they add them to pledge managers for other campaigns later? Or do they just sell them to the public when it is convienent regardless of what they previously promised like Palladium and Prodos?
The odd one or 2 have ended up as part of the Mantic points scheme they have never sold them publicly or added them to later KSPMs to the best of my knowledge. Also in some cases it's the resin version that was exclusive and the same mini appears later in metal this happen with the DS Legendary heroes but for Warpath there only seems to be metal versions so the pose is exclusive they reserve the right to release an alternate pose version of the mini later they did this with the DZ Survivor mini.
What does Kickstarter Exclusive mean?
Here at Mantic we don't want to release figures through Kickstarter that will then penalise customers who miss out on the campaign. However, we do want to keep our Kickstarter exclusives a little bit special. Therefore, although our exclusive releases will never be sold at retail, they will be available later via the Mantic Points Scheme on our website, or offered as promotional figures at conventions that we attend.
In the case of the exclusive heroes available in the Warpath Kickstarter, it is these specific poses that are Kickstarter exclusive - when it comes to releasing the model at retail we will launch an alternately posed version of the character, with optional parts to make a generic hero of that type (Forward Observer/Forge Lord/etc).
My guess is the first week maybe will be them offering up variations of DZ stuff plus vehicles we've seen art for plus special characters. They'll probably start throwing out faction starters and boosters too at some point. I would guess whatever sold best out of the various KS will be saved for the middle sag to try to keep the momentum going.
MLaw wrote: My guess is the first week maybe will be them offering up variations of DZ stuff plus vehicles we've seen art for plus special characters. They'll probably start throwing out faction starters and boosters too at some point. I would guess whatever sold best out of the various KS will be saved for the middle sag to try to keep the momentum going.
I guessing we'll see the usual faction dice this wednesday, maybe they will save the scenery till the mid week sag since that will sell well. Plus we'll have the multi base movement tray for the mass battle rules. I'd also guess more suppression markers.
I hope they have the plague beast from dzi as an addon, I missed picking up on of those.
I wonder what that dropship will be at retail. $35 seems reasonable, although higher than ideal considering its size, which means the KS price won't save me any money over waiting for Miniature Market. $40 seems a bit high, which might make me view it more harshly and choose not to buy it...
Either way, $30 for a KS campaign add on just seems a bit bold. I wonder if they will reduce the price or double up the kits like they did for the enforcer jetbikes in the last DZ campaign.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I wonder what that dropship will be at retail. $35 seems reasonable, although higher than ideal considering its size, which means the KS price won't save me any money over waiting for Miniature Market. $40 seems a bit high, which might make me view it more harshly and choose not to buy it...
Either way, $30 for a KS campaign add on just seems a bit bold. I wonder if they will reduce the price or double up the kits like they did for the enforcer jetbikes in the last DZ campaign.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a three for $75 addon box to come as one of the battalion choices, same for the ff tanks.
I like the kickstarter so far. Nice smooth additions that make sense.
Not sure what to get yet. I do have enough Raging Heroes ladies to stand in as Enforcers.. but .. you knoooooww... we all need more.
3 for $75 is a really tough sell for me. Maybe if they do a mix-and-match set, so I could buy two dropships and a tank that would be more attractive. ($25 for a bearded tank seems high when I can get one at the club for the cost of a daiquiri from Robogear for $6.) Of course, 2 dropships for $30 would be the kind of amazeballs can't-miss deal that would get people talking. Just pointing that out should any Mantic employees be reading this.
At least they aren't pulling a Reaper and increasing the price when an item proves popular.
I'm a bit worried that the FF tanks are going to run $30 each via kickstarter which is a bit of a non-starter for me. Since that means they'll be close to retailing for more than a GW Rhino/Razorback.
I have to agree on the $30 vehicle option. They did the same thing with the jetbikes on DZ:I and when they caught public backlash they opened it up to a twofer. Considering the faceship is something I could easily replace with a GotG toy or similarly priced Puppetswar flyer, I can't get on board. Adding the fact that I have my Titanforge dropship already.. eh..
The FF tank is another one.. I think the design is alright (a bit on the nose) but again, it's in the price range I would expect from retail. That said, Mantic "has" been raising their prices. A lot of their stuff has made a drastic shift from "budget alternative" to "overpriced other guys". I hate to be so blunt about it but that's where it's at IMO.
DaveC wrote: The odd one or 2 have ended up as part of the Mantic points scheme they have never sold them publicly or added them to later KSPMs to the best of my knowledge. Also in some cases it's the resin version that was exclusive and the same mini appears later in metal this happen with the DS Legendary heroes but for Warpath there only seems to be metal versions so the pose is exclusive they reserve the right to release an alternate pose version of the mini later they did this with the DZ Survivor mini.
What does Kickstarter Exclusive mean?
Here at Mantic we don't want to release figures through Kickstarter that will then penalise customers who miss out on the campaign. However, we do want to keep our Kickstarter exclusives a little bit special. Therefore, although our exclusive releases will never be sold at retail, they will be available later via the Mantic Points Scheme on our website, or offered as promotional figures at conventions that we attend.
In the case of the exclusive heroes available in the Warpath Kickstarter, it is these specific poses that are Kickstarter exclusive - when it comes to releasing the model at retail we will launch an alternately posed version of the character, with optional parts to make a generic hero of that type (Forward Observer/Forge Lord/etc).
Mantic really should stop doing these metal, plastic hybrids. At the very worst, at least use resin for the upgrades pack, since it has pretty much the same density as plastic, unlike metal which is way heavier and destabilise the miniature
Hulksmash wrote: I'm a bit worried that the FF tanks are going to run $30 each via kickstarter which is a bit of a non-starter for me. Since that means they'll be close to retailing for more than a GW Rhino/Razorback.
I'm a bit lost on the scale I think, from the illustrations, and the guy next to it, I thought the tank was getting on for landraider sized, and the flyer thing was valkyrie sized. Are they smaller than that?
I've built hundreds of combined models and ignoring the VERY FEW bad ones, it has never been a problem.
Yes, you need to pin them, but otherwise it is a cheap yet effective way to increase your model range.
Ouch....The kickstarter price on a transport is basically 25% off a GW vehicle of the same cost. Which makes me wonder what these are going to retail for.
Hulksmash wrote: Ouch....The kickstarter price on a transport is basically 25% off a GW vehicle of the same cost. Which makes me wonder what these are going to retail for.
Well, keep in mind that Mantic discounts are much easier to get than GW discounts once they hit retail. I forsee quite a few of these selling once that happens.
Depends. If they retail for $40 (which they should since you'd expect at least a 25% discount on the actual kickstart item) then I don't see them moving massive numbers. If they sell them at $35 or so then they again undercut their Kickstarters with standard pricing.
And discounts deeper than 20-25% are harder to come by now that MM isn't over buying and purging with regularity
I get the impression that the forgefather vehicles are much bigger than a Rhino, in which case the comparison doesn't make much sense. The vehicle is 60% off of the price GW charges for a landraider, which may be a better comparison.
The FF tank is another one.. I think the design is alright (a bit on the nose) but again, it's in the price range I would expect from retail. That said, Mantic "has" been raising their prices. A lot of their stuff has made a drastic shift from "budget alternative" to "overpriced other guys". I hate to be so blunt about it but that's where it's at IMO.
I've noticed their prices going up, too. The metals and restics always seemed to be priced higher than I would appraise them (although I admit to being a cheap bastard), but the plastics went nuts when the Peacekeepers were going for something like $4 per mini. I get that they wanted to promote the big-savings box sets, and that those were more profitable for Mantic, but they just don't have many impulse-buy kits to draw in new customers at retail. The pledge managers, on the other hand, have had 20 for $20, or even 20 for $15, deals that have been very competitive, so long as you can meet the pledge manager window, buy items unseen, and can wait a year for them to arrive.
I haven't really thought about buying any Mantic products at retail since I saw the huge price hike on the Mars Attacks Giant Bugs. Well, I'll probably get some of their more-than-famous goblins just to try them out.
decker_cky wrote: I get the impression that the forgefather vehicles are much bigger than a Rhino, in which case the comparison doesn't make much sense. The vehicle is 60% off of the price GW charges for a landraider, which may be a better comparison.
Considering the picture presented is a current FF steel warrior they are comparable to a Rhino. 3 models wide and 4 models deep is basically a rhino. And it looks about as tall on the average of a rhino. But we'll see.
The FF tank is another one.. I think the design is alright (a bit on the nose) but again, it's in the price range I would expect from retail. That said, Mantic "has" been raising their prices. A lot of their stuff has made a drastic shift from "budget alternative" to "overpriced other guys". I hate to be so blunt about it but that's where it's at IMO.
I've noticed their prices going up, too. The metals and restics always seemed to be priced higher than I would appraise them (although I admit to being a cheap bastard), but the plastics went nuts when the Peacekeepers were going for something like $4 per mini. I get that they wanted to promote the big-savings box sets, and that those were more profitable for Mantic, but they just don't have many impulse-buy kits to draw in new customers at retail. The pledge managers, on the other hand, have had 20 for $20, or even 20 for $15, deals that have been very competitive, so long as you can meet the pledge manager window, buy items unseen, and can wait a year for them to arrive.
I haven't really thought about buying any Mantic products at retail since I saw the huge price hike on the Mars Attacks Giant Bugs. Well, I'll probably get some of their more-than-famous goblins just to try them out.
lol, yes pretty much this. For D&D I need a creature called a retriever which is basically a giant mutant spider.. I did not back the MAKS because of the board game pieces mentality and now that freakin mutant spider is about the only suitable model for what I need. MM has it for like $16 but when I looked at how much all those expansions and sets are marked up for after the KS.. WOW. Same happened with DZ and Dreadball. The prices shoot up to GW levels. I guess, in a way it's fortunate that Mantic seems to be as addicted to running Kickstarters as shopping carts as we are to buying from them.
Seriously though, looking at all of that.. if these are starting off at $30.. the MSRP is likely to be absurd.
decker_cky wrote: I get the impression that the forgefather vehicles are much bigger than a Rhino, in which case the comparison doesn't make much sense. The vehicle is 60% off of the price GW charges for a landraider, which may be a better comparison.
That's still a terrible price for many reasons.
1. Landraiders and Rhinos feature in a setting with massive cultural penetration that could support a series of NYT bestselling novels. Mantic's vehicles feature in a free PDF anthology that even Mantic doesn't believe in enough to print and sell on paper. GW makes known quanities with iconic value, while Mantic makes ...not that.
2, Landraiders don't have faces.
3. Rhinos at least look like they are based on a real tank as opposed to a rolling door-stopper battlebot.
4. They are almost certainly smaller than you expect. Every single vehicle or walker I've bought from Mantic surprised me with its deceptively diminutive stature. I'd expect the Forgefather tank to be slightly bigger than a Robogear tank. A $6 Robogear tank. A $6 Robogear tank that doesn't have a face, but does have multiple assembly and armament options.
5. GW's prices should not be used as justification for anything, except possibly for cat-burglary.
Hulksmash wrote: Ouch....The kickstarter price on a transport is basically 25% off a GW vehicle of the same cost. Which makes me wonder what these are going to retail for.
Well, keep in mind that Mantic discounts are much easier to get than GW discounts once they hit retail. I forsee quite a few of these selling once that happens.
how are Mantic discounts much easier to get at retail???
GW at a discount is very easy to get, at least for US and UK customers...
i really like the look of the bionic Rottweiler!!!
that may be my first Mantic mini i actually pay money for (i got the free Ghouls back in 2010), if a version hits retail...
i have never been tempted to buy any of their sculpts yet, because i think most of them are ugly as sin (not to mention, restic is a no-go for me), but that doggie is way better than any Cyber-Mastiff GW have ever released...
well done, whoever sculpted that Rottie...
Backed for the rules at the moment, but the I have too many Enforcers and FF Forge Guard to make either battleset worth picking up, and I'm not interested in starting another SF army at the moment. I'll watch for Asterians, and make up my mind based on what I see.
overtyrant wrote: I might actually use Space Marine tanks for the FF. At least they don't look like something from Thundercats!
Now that you put it like that.. if the FF tanks really can be assembled into something like Voltron.. I might eat my words on the cost
I find it kind of amusing that Mantic chose to use the FF tank as two stretch goals (APC and Tank) knowing full well that it's the same freaking kit. For me, I am already looking at Daemonscape, Old Crow, or Puppetswar for alternatives. Some are way cheaper but none are very far over the cost of these.. oh.. and yeah they're already waiting.
EDIT: LOL, nevermind.. I have Titanforge tanks incoming. I completely forgot. They will be PERFECT.. bwahaha
I think up to now the Ramshackle games tanks are some of the best looking for Forge Fathers, have to see how these compare
Spoiler:
I wish with the Forge Fathers that they would settle on one design aesthetic. Are these science fiction space fairers who are short and squat, with a utilitarian aspect? Or are they space dwarves with loads of ostentation? It looked like the former but then the new guy with the dwarf looks like he's been lifted straight from Fantasy!
How is the FF tank two stretch goals? It's a larger hard plastic kit and they're only asking 25k to unlock both variants, bits for both come in the same 30 dollar kit?
Or am I reading something incorrectly? Just been following loosely on my phone.
GrimDork wrote: How is the FF tank two stretch goals? It's a larger hard plastic kit and they're only asking 25k to unlock both variants, bits for both come in the same 30 dollar kit?
Or am I reading something incorrectly? Just been following loosely on my phone.
The extra turret options mentioned in the alpha rules will be added later through another stretch goal. You currently get both the apc and standard tank in this stretch goal. Considering it adds the turret and dozerblade (I assume) it's probably another sprue.
i hope that you guys dont mind a general mantic question here but since the thread seems to have a lot of traction i thought that id ask.
How do I build the outpost they show in the picture for the fortified district?
Spoiler:
It's hard to describe but the picture shows a reinforced corner piece on all 4 corners but you only get 3 in the box. There are also pieces that look like walls with closed windows however they are not walls they are meant to attach to a wall but the only walls that you get are not flat so they cannot attach to them. There are also pieces that look like fortified columns that are meant to join two walls together however you can't use them because again, the walls are not flat.
Are there instructions anywhere?
---Trying to help on the scenery--- TLDR: Battlezones are kind of like legos, a lot of people won't build it like it is on the box, so extra pieces are useful. Missing pieces are lame, but its probably because of the nature of the sprues, the sprues were made before that specific building kit was on offer. Though if you only get three corners its a tad misleading.
Hmm interesting. That could be a case of their resident hobby wizard making things work behind the scenes while the kit itself doesn't do it without a bit of editing. I mean the sprues come with what they come with and you can build them like legos anyhow you want... though I understand wanting to be able to build the picture on the box.
May be a case of the lego people getting it right and Mantic having a bit of a lag in their show-off-art and packaging departments.
The parts you're talking about that look like walls but are meant to attach, those are the ones you can see in the picture on the right side next to the dish? They definitely fit the thinner standard battlezone tiles better than they do the thicker fortified tiles. I think to make it look like the picture there must have been some cutting or filing going on beneath them. I don't have as much gripes with the fortification stuff because I've got a lot of battlezones and you can get around things sometimes if you have a lot of pieces to mix and match, others may have better solutions.
---on topic--- Ahh, I hadn't read the warpath rules thoroughly enough to know all of the flavors of beard-tank. I don't care if it takes another stretch goal, if they add another sprue to the tank without making it cost more... then the tank becomes more valuable. I do understand why someone may be upset about the 'fake stretch goals' thing, though its never really bothered me personally. I'll just be excited if the tanks are as versatile as the steel warriors.
Re the Fort I've seen pictures of it from another angle and it uses the X Frames behind the reinforced sections not the walls that come on the sprue - they don't work with the reinforced sections and neither do the corners. As for the missing corner piece that's unfortunately how they split the kit up with 3 sprues.
jorny wrote: I am a bit disappointed that they are going so far with the viking dwarfs in space theme. It is not very imaginative. The sculpt even has a winged helmet and metal umlauts in its name. I mean do englishspeakers even understand how silly a name like Bröno sounds?
Maybe he does a lot for charity.
Being fair it is only one character model, but I'm with you that I hope this doesn't see a wholesale change in aesthetic direction. The slight nods were enough, IMO.
Kirasu wrote: 115$ for whatever is in the boxset is pretty good considering that's the cost of a standard bearer + horn blower from GW Age of Sigmar :p
Even if they're old models..
and by old models you mean models that haven't actually been released
"There's nothing new!"
I already paid to have these models developed and eventually delivered. So no, for all purposes that don't involve being intentionally obtuse, they're not new, even if they don't physically exist yet.
That's what I was afraid of. Thanks so much guys.
On topic, are the forge father's going to be the highlight of the campaign? I really like the new style vs the old.
I like the dreads too but am not sure if I'm sold on the tanks. Love that enforcer flyer though.
It would look sweet on an infinity table too.
I've gone for the early bird, but the long term plan is to drop to the $50 mark then make it up with tanks, unless multiple vehicles start becoming a 'thing' at the $120 pledge level.
The thing is, with Deadzone the way it is, I already have *way* more enforcers than the sample starter army. I've got a ridiculous number of unassembled Rebs too for that matter.
Tamereth wrote: Somebody wake me up when the warpath Kickstarter begins, this is just all Deadzone stuff.
Seriously I thought the kings of war 2 Kickstarter was light on new models but this is ridiculous.
Yeah.. I'm fully in this camp now. They say they want to flesh out whatever.. but lead with existing stuff and a couple of characters/vehicles.. Then go on to talk about how they aren't going to be releasing stuff for some factions? I'm rolling my eyes for those of you who can't see. I was pretty excited for this to be honest but man, they're pulling a Mantic.
