Xenomancers wrote:

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

What do Movie Marines have to do with balancing the game? If we made 100 tactical marines equal to a several-billion-strong PDF, those marines would cost over 4000 points each and would have a statline comparable to a Titan.

100 tabletop marines wouldn't even be able to take on the modern US army, much less all of present-day Earth.

Imperial Guard is the easiest army to proxy ever, especially if you're just planning to spam conscripts. Go buy some plastic army men, most Wal-Marts sell them at around $10 for 100 models, convince someone to play a few games against you and see how it goes.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

What do Movie Marines have to do with balancing the game? If we made 100 tactical marines equal to a several-billion-strong PDF, those marines would cost over 4000 points each and would have a statline comparable to a Titan.

100 tabletop marines wouldn't even be able to take on the modern US army, much less all of present-day Earth.

Imperial Guard is the easiest army to proxy ever, especially if you're just planning to spam conscripts. Go buy some plastic army men, most Wal-Marts sell them at around $10 for 100 models, convince someone to play a few games against you and see how it goes.

He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

A group of PJ's (roughly 12) could not take one a battalion of infantry (40-80) in today's modern day military...

 Xenomancers wrote:
He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

That... that's not even close to true. Most elite infantry actually do really badly against light infantry. The Battle of Sphacteria is my favorite example but there are many more.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

What do Movie Marines have to do with balancing the game? If we made 100 tactical marines equal to a several-billion-strong PDF, those marines would cost over 4000 points each and would have a statline comparable to a Titan.

100 tabletop marines wouldn't even be able to take on the modern US army, much less all of present-day Earth.

Imperial Guard is the easiest army to proxy ever, especially if you're just planning to spam conscripts. Go buy some plastic army men, most Wal-Marts sell them at around $10 for 100 models, convince someone to play a few games against you and see how it goes.

He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

No, no it's really not. Do you think that Delta Force or Seal Team 6 mows down enemy combatants by the thousands in open battle? No, in fact Special Forces' job is usually to avoid fighting as much as possible. They usually have one particular target, one thing that needs to be blown up or one hostage that needs to be extracted, and they want to get to that one target with as little shooting as possible. Getting their position fixed and overrun is exactly what they're weak against. What makes them so effective is that they're really, really good at avoiding open battle entirely.

Elite armies holding out against an endless horde only happens in movies. In practical combat, even the most elite highly trained special forces follow the rule of 3: if at all possible, only engage a target that you outnumber at least 3:1.

Now, if you want to argue that Space Marines should be all about recreating that cinematic experience instead, there's a few problems with that.

1: You're asking another player to help you recreate a cinematic experience where you effortlessly sweep his models off the table. Think of the other player, man.

2: Tactical Marines cannot simply shoot a shooty horde off the table as long as their bolters are Rapid 1. It's not their role, either deploy a specialized anti-horde unit to deal with the problem, or leverage the tacs' flexibility, which is their real asset, to shoot at melee units and melee shooty units.

3: If Space Marines were really the gods of battle you imagine them to be, they would cost way more than 12 points.

 Selym wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I feel like Guard players are absolutely in denial right now and will say anything if it means justifying having something OP

Just like C:SM players last edition

Not directed at anyone in particular, but being UP in one edition does not justify being OP the next for "revenge". Neither does the reverse make sense. GW flattens some codexes and makes unbeatable others on this principle. It's not "being fair", it's not about "getting your turn". It's about them making money at the expense of our H-H-H-Hobby. The correct solution is genuine attempts at balance.

You mean the Gladius that literally nobody denied was OP but you're deciding otherwise to fit your narrative?

Whole threads went down with SM players arguing that the IG had it better in 7e. So no.

I've seen those threads, and they were telling the IG player what to do as they refused to adapt (at all). Non-Gladius wasn't an issue, but as long as Gladius exists, Tactical Marines can be in the OP category.

So while we do need to adapt to hordes now...theres not really a good anti-horde weapon. With my Necrons I don't have to worry as much, simply because Warriors will get them down to a 6+, Gauss Immortals dropped off will negate their save entirely, and Tesla Immortals will combo well with Overlords.

However, with my Marines (and to an extent Chaos Marines as I just use the same models to experiment with lists for both armies) and Skitarii, I don't exactly have a lot of great options. I definitely have some weapons more efficient than others, but none of them actually good. I'm only lucky that the Ranger squads I have built get Arqs, and that I MIGHT be able to damage and kill Priests and Commisars.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

That... that's not even close to true. Most elite infantry actually do really badly against light infantry. The Battle of Sphacteria is my favorite example but there are many more.

Yeah...Those greek heavy infantry really struggled against hordes.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

What do Movie Marines have to do with balancing the game? If we made 100 tactical marines equal to a several-billion-strong PDF, those marines would cost over 4000 points each and would have a statline comparable to a Titan.

100 tabletop marines wouldn't even be able to take on the modern US army, much less all of present-day Earth.

Imperial Guard is the easiest army to proxy ever, especially if you're just planning to spam conscripts. Go buy some plastic army men, most Wal-Marts sell them at around $10 for 100 models, convince someone to play a few games against you and see how it goes.

He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

No, no it's really not. Do you think that Delta Force or Seal Team 6 mows down enemy combatants by the thousands in open battle? No, in fact Special Forces' job is usually to avoid fighting as much as possible. They usually have one particular target, one thing that needs to be blown up or one hostage that needs to be extracted, and they want to get to that one target with as little shooting as possible. Getting their position fixed and overrun is exactly what they're weak against. What makes them so effective is that they're really, really good at avoiding open battle entirely.

Elite armies holding out against an endless horde only happens in movies. In practical combat, even the most elite highly trained special forces follow the rule of 3: if at all possible, only engage a target that you outnumber at least 3:1.

Now, if you want to argue that Space Marines should be all about recreating that cinematic experience instead, there's a few problems with that.

1: You're asking another player to help you recreate a cinematic experience where you effortlessly sweep his models off the table. Think of the other player, man.

2: Tactical Marines cannot simply shoot a shooty horde off the table as long as their bolters are Rapid 1. It's not their role, either deploy a specialized anti-horde unit to deal with the problem, or leverage the tacs' flexibility, which is their real asset, to shoot at melee units and melee shooty units.

3: If Space Marines were really the gods of battle you imagine them to be, they would cost way more than 12 points.

None of this really applies to anything. This isn't elite infantry vs new recruits, this is 8 foot tall genetically enhanced killing machines armed with .75 caliber automatic grenade launchers against new recruits.

Why are so many 40k players under the impression that being 8 feet tall is somehow an asset in a shootout?

You know a Space Marine player is losing a balance argument when they start falling back on lore.

 ross-128 wrote:
Why are so many 40k players under the impression that being 8 feet tall is somehow an asset in a shootout?

You know a Space Marine player is losing a balance argument when they start falling back on lore.

Holy crap I was just talking about how worthless heavy infantry are in this game - they have 0 purpose. They lose out to hordes in every situation - ALWAYS. Tatical marines have always been GAK - I don't expect that to change really. There is literally 0 arguement against conscripts being OP though. They beat Dedicated melle units in close combat. They are underpointed. It's clear as day.

I'm not even sure what's being argued at this point. I myself am happy to try to solve hordes instead of scatbike/warp spider/wraithknight lists. Sounds like conscripts should have 6+ armor or even no armor, though.

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Two turns of whirlwind battery, a turn of inceptor fire and a DC charge fix this problem. Don't underestimate whirlwinds, as you can't get away from them and they are non-trivial to knock out.

Who in their right mind would bring Inceptors, though?

I did. I really like them so far. They are a very BA unit.

But over 70ppm? Or are you going by the price in the Dark Imperium box? Because that's not accurate.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
He was talking about an abstract idea of elite armies not being able to fight hordes. It's totally backwords anyways. Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry. This game has that backwards.

That... that's not even close to true. Most elite infantry actually do really badly against light infantry. The Battle of Sphacteria is my favorite example but there are many more.

Yeah...Those greek heavy infantry really struggled against hordes.

Hey man I was just saying that your sentence "elite infantry's role in warfare has always been to crush light infantry" is demonstrably false, as often the preferred asset against heavy, elite armies has been light infantry, e.g. Agincourt.

Just sayin'.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry.

And then guns got invented and that all changed.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Two turns of whirlwind battery, a turn of inceptor fire and a DC charge fix this problem. Don't underestimate whirlwinds, as you can't get away from them and they are non-trivial to knock out.

Who in their right mind would bring Inceptors, though?

I did. I really like them so far. They are a very BA unit.

But over 70ppm? Or are you going by the price in the Dark Imperium box? Because that's not accurate.

No i paid 75 pp i think. They were $$ because of no scatter deep strike. Maybe they work better for ba because dc are very distracting. They are useless on a open map, but on a normal map i think they are close to okay.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ashiraya wrote:Grey Knights?

Selym wrote:Deathwatch?

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Harlequins.

Can i just say that none of those factions are truly intended to be a stand alone army in the first place? Each of those is a "best of the best, of the best, of the best, with honors, Sir!" army, and I'm not suprised that they would have some problems vs. cheap hordes, given their inherent lower model count and lack of options. It would also suprise me if they functioned decently againt an Ork or Tyranid horde, as well.

I think thats fine. In fact I prefer it.

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

"Normal" Space Marine chapters were not on the list, you'll notice. Normal space marine chapters have cheaper infantry, and access to equipment like whirlwinds, thunderfires, and loads of frag missiles if they want it. Normal space marines should be fine at murdering hordes, and they are.

Deathwatch and Grey Knights dont go around conquering planets. Theyre used in specific situations, and given specific equipment for their respective, particular missions. Pitched battle against renegade masses isnt their thing.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Whoa Jeezy. When you took math in school did you just think it was some mumbo jumbo?

I'm an accounting major; as such, I'm fairly certain I've taken more advanced math classes than most people here, and deal with math far more often in a more practical setting. And it's taught me the quite simple fact that problems the real world is rarely as straightforward as a multiple choice question on a test.

The half-assed theorycrafting that says "OMG CONSCRIPTS OP PLS NERF!" has not thus far held up to anyone's playtesting. And it's fairly obvious why-- this half-assed theorycrafting assumes that conscript-using players are given every advantage possible by their opponents and the opponents will be making every single tactical mistake possible. Like "all of my conscripts will fire at once in rapid fire range, but at the same time, they're so spread out you can't flank them to get what they're protecting!". Or "There's enough conscripts to completely block line of sight to the units they're protecting, yes even if they're large vehicles!". Or "I have nothing better to spend command points or orders on than conscripts!". Or "if you can't delete conscripts in one turn they're overpowered!".

Your theorycrafting is crap, because your unspoken assumptions are crap, and do not reflect the real situation in the real world.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Why are so many 40k players under the impression that being 8 feet tall is somehow an asset in a shootout?

You know a Space Marine player is losing a balance argument when they start falling back on lore.

Holy crap I was just talking about how worthless heavy infantry are in this game - they have 0 purpose. They lose out to hordes in every situation - ALWAYS. Tatical marines have always been GAK - I don't expect that to change really. There is literally 0 arguement against conscripts being OP though. They beat Dedicated melle units in close combat. They are underpointed. It's clear as day.

We've already gone over why they don't, you just refuse to believe you could possibly be wrong. Which is why I've been telling you to go get some plastic army men and play the game.

Because I know that no amount of argument, no amount of math, and no amount of logic will ever change your mind. It's clear that the only thing that could possibly change your mind is if you go actually play as IG and lose. So go do that.

And make sure you're playing a real opponent, because everybody fudges the results when they play against themselves.

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry.

And then guns got invented and that all changed.

This game is not based around modern warfare - men are fighting with swords - it is basically midevil combat with a futuristic flare to it. Space marines are basically modeled around roman legions...quite literally - they are 1000 man armies that break down to the squad level - that is exactly what a roman legion was. What did roman legions do? They conquered hordes of germanics/ and brittans time and time again - always outnumbered - always winning.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Elite infantries roll in warfare has always been to crush light infantry.

And then guns got invented and that all changed.

This game is not based around modern warfare

Nor around medieval warfare.

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Whoa Jeezy. When you took math in school did you just think it was some mumbo jumbo?

I'm an accounting major; as such, I'm fairly certain I've taken more advanced math classes than most people here, and deal with math far more often in a more practical setting. And it's taught me the quite simple fact that problems the real world is rarely as straightforward as a multiple choice question on a test.

The half-assed theorycrafting that says "OMG CONSCRIPTS OP PLS NERF!" has not thus far held up to anyone's playtesting. And it's fairly obvious why-- this half-assed theorycrafting assumes that conscript-using players are given every advantage possible by their opponents and the opponents will be making every single tactical mistake possible. Like "all of my conscripts will fire at once in rapid fire range, but at the same time, they're so spread out you can't flank them to get what they're protecting!". Or "There's enough conscripts to completely block line of sight to the units they're protecting, yes even if they're large vehicles!". Or "I have nothing better to spend command points or orders on than conscripts!". Or "if you can't delete conscripts in one turn they're overpowered!".

Your theorycrafting is crap, because your unspoken assumptions are crap, and do not reflect the real situation in the real world.

You crunch numbers for a living and you talk about math like it's hokus pokus? Give me a break man.

I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

What he's saying is garbage in, garbage out. If you start with bad assumptions, your math will give you bad results.

For example, if I assume that a cow is a uniform sphere coinciding with its center of gravity, and is in a frictionless environment with no air resistance, this will more or less suffice for calculating the orbital mechanics of a cow that has been launched into space. However, those assumptions will not tell me how long it takes a cow to walk from Oklahoma to Nebraska no matter how much math I do.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You crunch numbers for a living and you talk about math like it's hokus pokus? Give me a break man.

Strawman arguments are shameful and you should be ashamed of yourself for making them.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Ashiraya wrote:Grey Knights?

Selym wrote:Deathwatch?

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Harlequins.

Can i just say that none of those factions are truly intended to be a stand alone army in the first place? Each of those is a "best of the best, of the best, of the best, with honors, Sir!" army, and I'm not suprised that they would have some problems vs. cheap hordes, given their inherent lower model count and lack of options. It would also suprise me if they functioned decently againt an Ork or Tyranid horde, as well.

I think thats fine. In fact I prefer it.

All space marine chapters are the same size - minus a few outliers. Some are just better than others. Just a company of a chapter is supposed to be able to conquer whole planets...so dealing with hordes is actually something they should be able to do.

"Normal" Space Marine chapters were not on the list, you'll notice. Normal space marine chapters have cheaper infantry, and access to equipment like whirlwinds, thunderfires, and loads of frag missiles if they want it. Normal space marines should be fine at murdering hordes, and they are.

Deathwatch and Grey Knights dont go around conquering planets. Theyre used in specific situations, and given specific equipment for their respective, particular missions. Pitched battle against renegade masses isnt their thing.

Alright it's math time I guess.

WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You crunch numbers for a living and you talk about math like it's hokus pokus? Give me a break man.

Strawman arguments are shameful and you should be ashamed of yourself for making them.

How is it strawman? You work with math on a regualr basis for a living - and disregard it's ability to determine units strengths in a game which breaks down to dice rolls and statistics. You should be ashamed of yourself for insulting your own craft.

I honestly feel like arguing with this guy is like yelling at a brick wall, useless. He has it in his mind that his nids should be better than guardsman. Players like him are the reason I'm honestly hoping nids get needed into the ground hard again.

Are conscripts 5+ to hit?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I honestly feel like arguing with this guy is like yelling at a brick wall, useless. He has it in his mind that his nids should be better than guardsman. Players like him are the reason I'm honestly hoping nids get needed into the ground hard again.

Hormagaunts should beat conscripts in melle - if you disagree with this you are most certainly don't understand what the term balance means.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Martel732 wrote:
Are conscripts 5+ to hit?

Yeah but they are 3 points and get 4 shots a turn with orders. They have a 5+ save too. Oh and they will also be fearless - because they have an HQ in their army.

I only want to say that I agree with the sentiment that Grey Knights and Deatwatch should be part of a bigger faction, Inquisition, alongside Sisters of Battle.

But they are their own faction. To say that "They are a specific elite army so they shouldn't be capable of fighting hordes" is just totally bonkers from a balance perspective. They are part of the game, so they should be able to win agains't every other army. Ones could be a easier match-up, and others more hard, ok, I agree with that.
But when the point is "Your Gk can't win agains't hordes, bring IG"... I think that is just absurd from a balance standpoint.

Is like the Imperail Knight army of 7th all over again.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Then you do the math and figure you 10 man strike squad takes 8 wounds from a full strength 50 man conscript...and actually loses when it gets charged it's kinds like...man whats the point?

The point is to find a way around the basic thought process you are bringing. Think outside the box. If you can't do that, this isn't the game for you. Honesty, there are plenty of nerfs with nids I know should happen. I honestly think faints are TOO cheap. 5 ppm is what they should be for HOW good they are in melee

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I honestly feel like arguing with this guy is like yelling at a brick wall, useless. He has it in his mind that his nids should be better than guardsman. Players like him are the reason I'm honestly hoping nids get needed into the ground hard again.

I refer you to my earlier statement:

 Selym wrote:

Not directed at anyone in particular, but being UP in one edition does not justify being OP the next for "revenge". Neither does the reverse make sense. GW flattens some codexes and makes unbeatable others on this principle. It's not "being fair", it's not about "getting your turn". It's about them making money at the expense of our H-H-H-Hobby. The correct solution is genuine attempts at balance.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Are conscripts 5+ to hit?

Yeah but they are 3 points and get 4 shots a turn with orders.

Yes, they can get 4 shots a turn with Orders.

But that actually requires a certain set of circumstances to happen.
1) They need to be within Order range of a model with "Voice of Command"(spoiler: Commissars don't count). Since Conscripts can't take Vox-Casters, that means there needs to be a Company or Platoon Commander within 6" of the Conscripts.
2) They need to not have been targeted by other Orders that turn.
3) They need to be within Rapid Fire range.

FRSRF just changes their Lasguns to Rapid Fire 2.
So at 13-24 inches, those Conscripts are firing 2 shots.
12 inches or less(aka: "Rapid Fire range"), they're firing 4.

They have a 5+ save too. Oh and they will also be fearless - because they have an HQ in their army.

So who's issuing the Orders if you took Lord Commissars as your HQs? And Priests as your Elites?

Yeah, the 5+ save is nasty...

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I honestly feel like arguing with this guy is like yelling at a brick wall, useless. He has it in his mind that his nids should be better than guardsman. Players like him are the reason I'm honestly hoping nids get needed into the ground hard again.

I have 7 armies man. I play literally every kind of matchup. I play hordes - I play mech - I play elites. I have all the horses in this fight. I also know how bad for the game it is to have units like this in the game. An unpointed tank can still be killed by a few las cannons. An underpointed titan still dies when you hit it with lots of melta. Underpriced 50 man blobs can't be removed efficiently and when you factor in the fact that they are more than capable of making back their points during a game...whilst being unkillable...and screening for army...it's easy to see why this unit is being called out in a thread. When people could be complaing about D scythe wraithgard or something.

Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

This is why there is no need to change. In one instance they kille 7 models in the other they were murdered by 10. THAT is balance

 techsoldaten wrote:
Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

Sounds like you played a newb gaurd player that didnt realize he could drop out of combat for no penalty so you never should have gotten 2 rounds of combat. Then he blast your 200 point zerker squad out in the open with his line of lemon russ. - congrats - you killed 20 men - 60 points of conscripts.

 Galas wrote:
I only want to say that I agree with the sentiment that Grey Knights and Deatwatch should be part of a bigger faction, Inquisition, alongside Sisters of Battle.

But they are their own faction. To say that "They are a specific elite army so they shouldn't be capable of fighting hordes" is just totally bonkers from a balance perspective. They are part of the game, so they should be able to win agains't every other army. Ones could be a easier match-up, and others more hard, ok, I agree with that.
But when the point is "Your Gk can't win agains't hordes, bring IG"... I think that is just absurd from a balance standpoint.

Is like the Imperail Knight army of 7th all over again.

Haha. Well, im not saying they shouldnt be able to do it, im just saying that I'm not suprised that they struggle with it, and that I don't mind.

As for 40k balance, I think it's fine to have sub-factions which only really function well as adjunct forces. It enables more variety, but doesnt require shoehorning new units and fluff into the universe.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

Sounds like you played a newb gaurd player that didnt realize he could drop out of combat for no penalty so you never should have gotten 2 rounds of combat. Then he blast your 200 point zerker squad out in the open with his line of lemon russ. - congrats - you killed 20 men - 60 points of conscripts.

You'll find anyway in your mind you can to make them still seem good

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

Sounds like you played a newb gaurd player that didnt realize he could drop out of combat for no penalty so you never should have gotten 2 rounds of combat. Then he blast your 200 point zerker squad out in the open with his line of lemon russ. - congrats - you killed 20 men - 60 points of conscripts.

You'll find anyway in your mind you can to make them still seem good

You are on a whole other level man - you don't even think conscripts are good? LOL.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Adding this to the conversation. I played against an AM army with 2 x 50 man squads of conscripts along with several Leman Russ tanks. I was playing a Khorne CSM list mostly consisting of Predators, Rhinos and Berzerkers.

The mechanics were predictable. In one case, I missed a charge with the Berzerkers, his Platoon Commander issued First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire! on one of the conscript squads. The Berzerkers took 7 wounds off 100 lasgun shots, then were charged and wiped out.

In another case, I got the charge with the Berzerkers. In two rounds of combat, the Berzerkers killed nearly 40 conscripts and all but 2 of the rest succumbed to the effects of morale.

Conscripts are a legitimately good unit but I would not call them overpowered. Their greatest strength appears to be taking up space. With 100 conscripts, you can protect a gunline from assault by occupying the entire width of the table. Even with the effects of morale, it takes a lot of wounds to chew through that many models.

Sounds like you played a newb gaurd player that didnt realize he could drop out of combat for no penalty so you never should have gotten 2 rounds of combat. Then he blast your 200 point zerker squad out in the open with his line of lemon russ. - congrats - you killed 20 men - 60 points of conscripts.

You'll find anyway in your mind you can to make them still seem good

You are on a whole other level man - you don't even think conscripts are good? LOL.

Good yes, OP no

Take 50 men conscript. Give them "Catachan" keyword Get comissar and platoon commander with them. Get a searchlight (from FW), and make sure that harker sits close to them. Now enjoy your unit, that can fire down every threat with 100 BS4 reroll one shots. Or add aegis defence line, add priest and Straken, and place all this treasure pack near your artillery and anihilate every deep striking/charging idiot with 200 BS4+ reroll 1 shots or 150(actually 250, after you get an order Fix bayonets!) BS5+ hits in melee.

Mathhammer OP. In real game - supergood, but not total gamebreaker (as Eldar 7th edition and grav-cannon spam was)

 Xenomancers wrote:


WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.

The math is a tiny fraction of the picture, as others have pointed out. A big blob can rarely bring all its weapons to bear on a target, and a battle isnt decided soley on "points reduction".

Though i bet a TL Assault Cannon Razorback could pretty effectively kite a strung out conscript squad. And if hordes were becoming a problem in my area, I wouldnt take one whirlwind, Id take 3.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.

The math is a tiny fraction of the picture, as others have pointed out. A big blob can rarely bring all its weapons to bear on a target, and a battle isnt decided soley on "points reduction".

Though i bet a TL Assault Cannon Razorback could pretty effectively kite a strung out conscript squad. And if hordes were becoming a problem in my area, I wouldnt take one whirlwind, Id take 3.

Game on - I'll bring 3 units of 50 conscripts - your move.

 Xenomancers wrote:
How is it strawman?

I never said math is useless, that was your statement because you have nothing more than shameful, pathetic strawman arguments to draw back on. I said your assumptions were crap. Your baseline assumptions, derived from ignorance, caused your half-assed theorycrafting to not align with reality.

The fact is, your faulty assumptions cause you to have an overly simplistic view of the situation, which doesn't reflect the actually rather complex reality. For example... yes, guardsmen can theoretically get 4 shots off each... but to have the entire 50-model squad get 4 shots off would require literally everything to go right for the Guard player, and the Guard player's opponent to make every single mistake possible. Which is a ridiculous notion, and one of MANY you have made here-- in fact, you've made a lot of assumptions that are themselves inherently contradictory, like assuming the guard unit is spread out like a wall, and yet also assuming they are all able to get rapid fire and pile in at once, two situations that literally cannot happen at the same time.

And no manner of clever math will save you from bad assumptions.

Were you an accountant operating with this attitude you have, you would not only get your clients in a lot of deep gak, and potentially get yourself put in jail with potentially hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars in debt owed to your clients when you get out.

Thankfully, this is merely a discussion about a dice-based board game whereupon the players move plastic miniatures around, so you don't have any responsibility to be right. Doesn't mean you're not wrong, though.

I see you've conveniently forgot to allocate points for your support units again. You seem to do that a lot. :p

Melissa is 100% correct- although conscripts can perform a couple of tasks well, they cannot possibly do everything to you at once. Try simulating a full unit of charging hormagants vs 25 conscripts, except you get to kill up to 50. Conscripts are designed to be expendable bubble wrap units, so if they're not strung out wide across the opponent's deployment zone edge, your hypothetical opponent has already misplayed severely.

Don't blatantly manipulate numbers in favor of your viewpoint and get all upset when people call out that sort of BS.

The 5+ armor is the worst part, I think. Those conscripts are never getting a full rapid fire off against my lists. Plus, I can tie them down to objectives by taking out the smaller units of real guardsmen or whatever.

 ross-128 wrote:
I see you've conveniently forgot to allocate points for your support units again. You seem to do that a lot. :p

You mean the auto include HQ choices that every guard army takes anyways?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The 5+ armor is the worst part, I think. Those conscripts are never getting a full rapid fire off against my lists. Plus, I can tie them down to objectives by taking out the smaller units of real guardsmen or whatever.

There wont be other gaurdsmen - thats the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Melissa is 100% correct- although conscripts can perform a couple of tasks well, they cannot possibly do everything to you at once. Try simulating a full unit of charging hormagants vs 25 conscripts, except you get to kill up to 50. Conscripts are designed to be expendable bubble wrap units, so if they're not strung out wide across the opponent's deployment zone edge, your hypothetical opponent has already misplayed severely.

Don't blatantly manipulate numbers in favor of your viewpoint and get all upset when people call out that sort of BS.

I don't expect my expensive units to be able to do more than one thing at once...why would I expect a 150 point 50 man to do anything but do better than any other 150 point unit could possibly do? Thats all it needs to do to be OP. BTW there is 0 reason not to stack your blobs as close together as they can be now - no more blast weapons. Plus it helps you spam more 50 man conscript squads.

Won't be other guardsman? You're naive. My list only includes one unit tops of conscripts if at all, and is still a very viable list. There will be plenty of other guardsman for Martel to go after if him and inever fought. You're thinking in a bubble, which doesn't surprise me as a tyranid main player. I could care less if you have "other armies" your mind set is.. well, I can just tel you are the "loads of fun" player in your area

I'm going to bet most guard armies will want to fill out a brigade to maximize CPs. That will mean probably 2 full size conscript units, tops, and 4+ generic infantry or scion squads. Of course there will be other dudes to shoot at.


Side note: And if you think I personally will waste elite/HQ slots to give orders to my cheap, expendable screens, you're either crazy or insulting my intelligence. Their job is to eat wounds, not dish them out. Sinking both points and kill points into a non-optimal, secondary role that won't be improved that much further for a throwaway unit is how to make bad lists.

What he's saying is that he's going to make a list of just conscripts and HQ units and nothing else, and he thinks he's going to dominate every tournament with it.

A laughable notion, really.

I can't help but think that I can play around these guys on a typical board with some LoS blocking terrain. It doesn't need to be huge, either, to eclipse half the unit. They're probably too good, but will likely be changed. They're no scatbikes, though, because I can avoid them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.

The math is a tiny fraction of the picture, as others have pointed out. A big blob can rarely bring all its weapons to bear on a target, and a battle isnt decided soley on "points reduction".

Though i bet a TL Assault Cannon Razorback could pretty effectively kite a strung out conscript squad. And if hordes were becoming a problem in my area, I wouldnt take one whirlwind, Id take 3.

Game on - I'll bring 3 units of 50 conscripts - your move.

Well thats easy, the whirlwinds all fire on one squad, do a bunch of casualties and watch as they lose more to their morsle checks. they do this from 72" away, and immune to return fire.

Or do you think there might be other units involved? And maybe 40k involves things other than math.

I look forward to playing against the coscript horde, and hearing about how theyre sweeping tournaments.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Sounds like you played a newb gaurd player that didnt realize he could drop out of combat for no penalty so you never should have gotten 2 rounds of combat. Then he blast your 200 point zerker squad out in the open with his line of lemon russ. - congrats - you killed 20 men - 60 points of conscripts.

You do realize that Khorne Berzerkers can fight twice in every combat phase, right?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I see you've conveniently forgot to allocate points for your support units again. You seem to do that a lot. :p

You mean the auto include HQ choices that every guard army takes anyways?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The 5+ armor is the worst part, I think. Those conscripts are never getting a full rapid fire off against my lists. Plus, I can tie them down to objectives by taking out the smaller units of real guardsmen or whatever.

There wont be other gaurdsmen - thats the point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Melissa is 100% correct- although conscripts can perform a couple of tasks well, they cannot possibly do everything to you at once. Try simulating a full unit of charging hormagants vs 25 conscripts, except you get to kill up to 50. Conscripts are designed to be expendable bubble wrap units, so if they're not strung out wide across the opponent's deployment zone edge, your hypothetical opponent has already misplayed severely.

Don't blatantly manipulate numbers in favor of your viewpoint and get all upset when people call out that sort of BS.

I don't expect my expensive units to be able to do more than one thing at once...why would I expect a 150 point 50 man to do anything but do better than any other 150 point unit could possibly do? Thats all it needs to do to be OP. BTW there is 0 reason not to stack your blobs as close together as they can be now - no more blast weapons. Plus it helps you spam more 50 man conscript squads.

You're completely wrong on that last account.

Conscripts have crap firepower. Every conscripts blob is a Manticore you don't have, or several heavy weapons units.

You want to take advantage of the big-ness of a conscript unit to spread it out all across the field in a long line that absorbs the entire enemy first turn charge, then falls back out of combat to allow the actually lethal elements of your army to pulverize the enemy. Because toughness doesn't kill enemies, you want the minimum of conscripts you can get and still have an adequate defense and the rest of the points on support units, like artillery.

I'd guess the "right number" of conscripts might be 50-100, depending on how large the game is.


There will be other guardsmen, because conscripts can't have Plasmaguns or Lascannons.


Also, if we're including the IG's mandatory HQ's, then we should also include the mandatory support the other armies have along, like the Swarmlord, Tervigon, Ghazskull, Wierdboys, Painboys, Celestine, etc.

Better idea. Just bring some properly supported Khornate Berserkers and eat those conscripts for brunch. Khorne will be pleased at that much bloodshed.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I see you've conveniently forgot to allocate points for your support units again. You seem to do that a lot. :p

You mean the auto include HQ choices that every guard army takes anyways?

If you're saying that it's going to be your entire list, then you've got to pay for the support too because they're part of the list. If you're trying to put the unit in isolation, then it doesn't get any support.

Additionally, Commissars and Priests are elite, not HQ.

You've been making a habit of comparing 300 points of Conscripts with nearly 200 points of support to around 150 points of unsupported enemy units, and acting like it's some kind of travesty that they can win. And you try to pass it off as "150 points of conscripts can stomp a hole in 150 points of other units, if they have 150 more points of conscripts and 200 points of buffs supporting them! Look how OP that is!"

Remember, the cost of buffs is borne by the model granting the buffs, but you DO have to pay for that model.

Or, in the more recent case, if you're trying to use 450 points of conscripts with maximum support your opponent is not going to get a budget of 150 points to oppose them. They're going to have nearly 700 points to work with.

100 shots from these guys generates two wounds vs a typical tank, or one wound vs a hard to hit flyer like stormraven. That's what you exploit here. One volley from assault cannon/sponson stormravens makes the squad more manageable. Hell, I might even start using heavy bolters on my stormravens.

Conscripts definitely can cause some serious problems for people. I think the most significant of which is that its just horrifyingly tedious to play against them.

I like measuring other units against the Inquisition Acolytes.

I get 3 wounds with 5+ for 8 points, So I'm not really sure why people are so frustrated. I can't even imagine someone complaining about the acolytes. For +2 pts I can get a storm bolter. So thats .3 pts more for a storm bolter at the same points-per-wound.

Volume of fire has always been a critically important thing for a D6 based game. I dunno, I guess I just don't care as much about losing?

Melissia wrote:What he's saying is that he's going to make a list of just conscripts and HQ units and nothing else, and he thinks he's going to dominate every tournament with it.

A laughable notion, really.

I would pay to see the look on his face when his Conscripts come up against four Imperial Knights at 2000 points. Somebody mathhammer out how many lasgun shots it takes on average to kill an Imperial Knight...

Martel732 wrote:I can't help but think that I can play around these guys on a typical board with some LoS blocking terrain. It doesn't need to be huge, either, to eclipse half the unit. They're probably too good, but will likely be changed. They're no scatbikes, though, because I can avoid them.

LOS-blocking terrain is huge in 8th, doubly so against Conscripts and IG/AM in general. Because area terrain is back large blobs have a very difficult time gaining cover saves, and it's a lot harder for vehicles to get cover as well.

The Imperial knights will lose the game on objectives, though. 3 pt dudes are strong, for sure. I'll have to see them on the board to determine if they are busted.

Late to the party.

They don't even beat bog-standard assault marines for that matter. Or Seraphim, who aren't even that great at assault (though they do have twin pistols, which is pretty hardcore for causing wounds in different ways)

Powerclaws munch througt Conscripts like a hot knive in butter. Rerolling to wounds, the +1 attack plus the -2 AP that negates the 5+ armour work very nicely.

Whittle them down, assault with DC. DC are for sure anti-horde now, as they are not very effective vs heavy targets anymore without a LOT of expensive wargear. Also, don't forget the stormbolter upgrades on all your vehicles. They add up fast now vs T3 chumps. I think these guys just have one point of armor too much.

Yeah, storm bolters are WAY better than they used to be.

Seems like kite and whittle or bring out the tanks and put them in front is an easy way of dealing with them.

you will have to knock them out of cover but a 4+ save is hardly anything to count on.

4+ save on a 3 pt model is stupid good. That's why I think they should get the crappy flak jackets, which are 6+.

Don't have my book in front of me-- how many units do you need in cover to have the entire squad have the cover save? I know LoS requires ALL the squad to be LoS blocked. With a 50-conscript squad, having all fifty of them in cover is quite a feat.

Martel732 wrote:
4+ save on a 3 pt model is stupid good. That's why I think they should get the crappy flak jackets, which are 6+.

they dont have the model for t shirts on guardsmen. thats probably why they are sitting on 5+

 Melissia wrote:
Don't have my book in front of me-- how many units do you need in cover to have the entire squad have the cover save? I know LoS requires ALL the squad to be LoS blocked. With a 50-conscript squad, having all fifty of them in cover is quite a feat.

iirc most terrain says that the whole unit needs to be within the base of a terrain piece while at the same time also saying that any other model needs to be obscured 50% or something.

its a little confusing from that terrain leak. i dont have my book on hand as well though

If your enemy can put all of his 50 blob conscripts in cover you are playing in a battle with a very big terrain

 Melissia wrote:
Don't have my book in front of me-- how many units do you need in cover to have the entire squad have the cover save? I know LoS requires ALL the squad to be LoS blocked. With a 50-conscript squad, having all fifty of them in cover is quite a feat.

ALL of the models need to be either on or in terrain to gain Cover.

 Melissia wrote:
Don't have my book in front of me-- how many units do you need in cover to have the entire squad have the cover save? I know LoS requires ALL the squad to be LoS blocked. With a 50-conscript squad, having all fifty of them in cover is quite a feat.

The entire squad must be in or on the terrain feature.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The 50% thing is referring to non-infantry. It's basically impossible for a land raider in this edition.

Yeah I don't see conscripts getting cover anywhere near as often as needed for the hypothetical 4+ save to matter until the unit's already been whittled down by enemy fire.

Martel732 wrote:
The Imperial knights will lose the game on objectives, though. 3 pt dudes are strong, for sure. I'll have to see them on the board to determine if they are busted.

Knights can pin the blob in combat, stay relatively safe, and then walk away the last turn to grab objectives. Some missions won't be so easy though.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah I don't see conscripts getting cover anywhere near as often as needed for the hypothetical 4+ save to matter until the unit's already been whittled down by enemy fire.

Agreed, but the 5+ is very effective vs many weapons now. That's why I think they should get the used flak vests for a 6+

Martel732 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah I don't see conscripts getting cover anywhere near as often as needed for the hypothetical 4+ save to matter until the unit's already been whittled down by enemy fire.

Agreed, but the 5+ is very effective vs many weapons now. That's why I think they should get the used flak vests for a 6+

Eh. Speaking from experience-- playing Sisters with Shield of Faith against armor-ignoring attacks-- a 6+ save (most anti-infantry weapons are at least ap-1, reducing the 5+ save to a 6+) really isn't that useful when you need it the most.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Imperial knights will lose the game on objectives, though. 3 pt dudes are strong, for sure. I'll have to see them on the board to determine if they are busted.

Knights can pin the blob in combat, stay relatively safe, and then walk away the last turn to grab objectives. Some missions won't be so easy though.

That will depend on positioning and some rule type things

objectives are now whoever has the most models on it

if they are already on it then you are going to have to mulch them

if you get last turn and its positioned so you can get it but they cant then you are good. (very situational)

and depending on how its played you may or may not be able to sit directly on top denying the enemy the ability to get close enough from any angle. (honestly its a bit cheesy to drive over that ammo dump that you REALLY need with a bane blade)

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.

The math is a tiny fraction of the picture, as others have pointed out. A big blob can rarely bring all its weapons to bear on a target, and a battle isnt decided soley on "points reduction".

Though i bet a TL Assault Cannon Razorback could pretty effectively kite a strung out conscript squad. And if hordes were becoming a problem in my area, I wouldnt take one whirlwind, Id take 3.

Game on - I'll bring 3 units of 50 conscripts - your move.

Well thats easy, the whirlwinds all fire on one squad, do a bunch of casualties and watch as they lose more to their morsle checks. they do this from 72" away, and immune to return fire.

Or do you think there might be other units involved? And maybe 40k involves things other than math.

I look forward to playing against the coscript horde, and hearing about how theyre sweeping tournaments.

Your on the right track but they are fearless - you have to kill their commanders first which are characters - for that you need snipers - which cost points a lot of points. He can just ignore your whirlwinds unfortunately - they just dont do enough damage.

Err, snipers can be had for fairly cheap by a lot of armies. Rangers, scout snipers, ratlings, etc.

If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

I had a good friend of mine that played IG, and his mantra was "If you infantry isn't dying, you aren't playing IG correctly".
A IG player that spam conscripts WANT you to shoot them. Just ignore them. Shoot the tanks, the elite troops, etc... those conscripts LITERALLY can't stop you from shooting whatever you want.

 Melissia wrote:
Err, snipers can be had for fairly cheap by a lot of armies. Rangers, scout snipers, ratlings, etc.

exceptionally available for the imperium

probably a little less so for other factions

But at least the sniper scouts can start costing a lot if you equip them with camo cloaks as modeled. they are a bit more expensive than a tactical squad. not that they are bad at all.

2+ save in cover oh baby.

 Galas wrote:
If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

I had a good friend of mine that played IG, and his mantra was "If you infantry isn't dying, you aren't playing IG correctly".
A IG player that spam conscripts WANT you to shoot them. Just ignore them. Shoot the tanks, the elite troops, etc... those conscripts LITERALLY can't stop you from shooting whatever you want.

Yeah then people tell you it's your fault if they get in rapid fire range...
Typically - it goes like this.
"Ignore them - they can't hurt anything."
"Oh you let them get in rapid fire range - you got outplayed"
"50 guys killed 8 guys? whats the problem?"

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Then you do the math and figure you 10 man strike squad takes 8 wounds from a full strength 50 man conscript...and actually loses when it gets charged it's kinds like...man whats the point?

Well in the scenario i created, I had line of sight to one conscript, not all 50 could return fire. Maybe he could move his blob, but you're looking at maybe 20 shots tops from the conscripts against a 2+ save from ruins.

But the point is, that's how i play it, if i can. It's not always easy to do that. And, in the case of ITC maps, it's rarely possible.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

I had a good friend of mine that played IG, and his mantra was "If you infantry isn't dying, you aren't playing IG correctly".
A IG player that spam conscripts WANT you to shoot them. Just ignore them. Shoot the tanks, the elite troops, etc... those conscripts LITERALLY can't stop you from shooting whatever you want.

Yeah then people tell you it's your fault if they get in rapid fire range...
Typically - it goes like this.
"Ignore them - they can't hurt anything."
"Oh you let them get in rapid fire range - you got outplayed"
"50 guys killed 8 guys? whats the problem?"

They are a giant blob of 50 guys running througt the board. I assume you are playing with a full army. A TAC army should had anti-horde weaponry and long range weaponry to be able to attack multiple points or units of the enemy army at once. This is not a binary "Attack their conscripts with everything or just ignore them all the game". You should value the threat the enemy units phose to you to decide what to priorice in every turn of the game. Thats why is fun.

At least thats how I see it. I still think that the way Commisars works isn't apropiate because it isn't scalable. Is the same efect to a unit of 10 guards that for 50 conscripts for the same price.

 Galas wrote:
If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

The only reason to bother shooting conscripts is if they're on an objective. And even then, it's trivial to just assault them off of it with anything even resembling a dedicated assault unit. Even generic assault marines with no upgrades will, point for point, tear conscripts a new donkey-cave.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Then you do the math and figure you 10 man strike squad takes 8 wounds from a full strength 50 man conscript...and actually loses when it gets charged it's kinds like...man whats the point?

Well in the scenario i created, I had line of sight to one conscript, not all 50 could return fire. Maybe he could move his blob, but you're looking at maybe 20 shots tops from the conscripts against a 2+ save from ruins.

But the point is, that's how i play it, if i can. It's not always easy to do that. And, in the case of ITC maps, it's rarely possible.

Even in the situation it is possislbe - you are putting a 210 point unit out to kill maybe 10 3 point guys at max - and don't kid yourself - the scion command squad was going to wipe you out anyways. The blob did it's job to suck you out and make you think shooting 40 anti infantry shoots was going to do something effective.

 Galas wrote:

At least thats how I see it. I still think that the way Commisars works isn't apropiate because it isn't scalable. Is the same efect to a unit of 10 guards that for 50 conscripts for the same price.

And this is the core problem. If the Commissar had diminished effectiveness on blobs of 20+ that would be perfectly acceptable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Then you do the math and figure you 10 man strike squad takes 8 wounds from a full strength 50 man conscript...and actually loses when it gets charged it's kinds like...man whats the point?

Well in the scenario i created, I had line of sight to one conscript, not all 50 could return fire. Maybe he could move his blob, but you're looking at maybe 20 shots tops from the conscripts against a 2+ save from ruins.

But the point is, that's how i play it, if i can. It's not always easy to do that. And, in the case of ITC maps, it's rarely possible.

Even in the situation it is possislbe - you are putting a 210 point unit out to kill maybe 10 3 point guys at max - and don't kid yourself - the scion command squad was going to wipe you out anyways. The blob did it's job to suck you out and make you think shooting 40 anti infantry shoots was going to do something effective.

Well we're talking about how to eliminate conscripts, not if it's a good idea or not. Fundamentally you have to attack the conscripts, because they are either squatting objectives or protecting something you need to get passed them to target.

I'm fine with 50 bodies being hard to remove, but i feel they should be subject to morale losses, with at most a 6+ save.

Even as it is right now, it's really just a minor problem that people are blowing out of proportion. 50 conscripts are actually fairly trival to remove over the course of a couple turns.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

The only reason to bother shooting conscripts is if they're on an objective. And even then, it's trivial to just assault them off of it with anything even resembling a dedicated assault unit. Even generic assault marines with no upgrades will, point for point, tear conscripts a new donkey-cave.

as has already been pointed out countless times...conscripts actually beat assault units of their same point cost. You just cant argue with math.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:

At least thats how I see it. I still think that the way Commisars works isn't apropiate because it isn't scalable. Is the same efect to a unit of 10 guards that for 50 conscripts for the same price.

And this is the core problem. If the Commissar had diminished effectiveness on blobs of 20+ that would be perfectly acceptable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know what kind of lists people are making but for ba, oblique attacks work well vs hordes since they aren't very mobile.

Yes. With GK the way I deal with it, is try to land in cover and use my stormbolters (ideally in rapid fire) to deal with hordes.

With the new 40k, if you can see one conscript only, you can inflict any number of casualties on the unit. So, it's entirely possible to shoot them, without being shot back.

But this is possible only on maps with a lot of terrain. In the ITC setup, this really can't happen, the map is effectively a bowling ball.

Then you do the math and figure you 10 man strike squad takes 8 wounds from a full strength 50 man conscript...and actually loses when it gets charged it's kinds like...man whats the point?

Well in the scenario i created, I had line of sight to one conscript, not all 50 could return fire. Maybe he could move his blob, but you're looking at maybe 20 shots tops from the conscripts against a 2+ save from ruins.

But the point is, that's how i play it, if i can. It's not always easy to do that. And, in the case of ITC maps, it's rarely possible.

Even in the situation it is possislbe - you are putting a 210 point unit out to kill maybe 10 3 point guys at max - and don't kid yourself - the scion command squad was going to wipe you out anyways. The blob did it's job to suck you out and make you think shooting 40 anti infantry shoots was going to do something effective.

Well we're talking about how to eliminate conscripts, not if it's a good idea or not. Fundamentally you have to attack the conscripts, because they are either squatting objectives or protecting something you need to get passed them to target.

I'm fine with 50 bodies being hard to remove, but i feel they should be subject to morale losses, with at most a 6+ save.

We are in agreement then - the units weakness should be leadership. Making them fearless makes them impossible to deal with.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You just cant argue with math.

Actually, I can, because your math sucks and plenty of people have pointed out exactly why your math sucks and why you're wrong.

He also continues to keep doing it, by pulling a scion squad out of thin air that apparently doesn't cost anything either.

You can't just add hundreds of points of models retroactively and then still claim you're making an even comparison.

Yes. He's lying his ass off to try to make a point, it's goddamn insulting.

edit - made a mistake. Commissars can't give orders. Seen this misplayed a few times, brought that assumption in here.

Why dont you guys just make some lists

a full one that you would normally use then theory away with no risk of pulling things out of an assback.

How did they get FRFSRF without an officer?

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, storm bolters are WAY better than they used to be.

I would say Storm Bolters are a wash this edition. Many units get armor saves against them now and the units that the higher RoF would help them with have increased in wounds. I would say SB have not gotten anymore powerful as a result.

 Quickjager wrote:
Many units get armor saves against them now

That's true of every single anti-infantry weapon out there, and thus irrelevant.

 Quickjager wrote:
and the units that the higher RoF would help them with have increased in wounds.

Single-wound minis have, for the most part, stayed single-wound minis.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, storm bolters are WAY better than they used to be.

I would say Storm Bolters are a wash this edition. Many units get armor saves against them now and the units that the higher RoF would help them with have increased in wounds. I would say SB have not gotten anymore powerful as a result.

it doubled in shots with the caviat that people can take saves on them.

i want to say it got better since weight of fire is a good way of dealing with all sorts of things.

No it is entirely relevant because that just means anti-infantry weapons have overall gotten worse. Stormbolters are ironically better at killing other marines now.

EDIT: Weight of fire is good. I just wonder where the meta will settle since I doubt the MEQ profile will be where the majority of models will be.

 Quickjager wrote:
No it is entirely relevant because that just means anti-infantry weapons have overall gotten worse

Four shots against a unit with a 6+ save is better than 2 shots against a unit with no save. Seriously, stop overestimating a 6+ save, it's pretty much garbage.

I mean if we really want to run with these free support units, I can "prove" that a single conscript model, not a squad, just a model, can kill a Knight in a single shot. If it's "supported" by a Shadowsword.

The Shadowsword supporting the conscript fires 6 shots from the volcano cannon, the Knight is a titanic unit so it hits on 3+ for 4 hits. It wounds on 2+ re-rolling failures, so basically all of them wound and the knight probably won't make any of its invuln saves. Each unsaved wound does 2d6 damage with an average of 7, so the Knight loses an average of 28 wounds. It only has 24, so it has a better than 50% chance of dying outright.

Let's just ignore the fact that I took some major leaps by assuming you'd get six shots and no saves, a single 3 point conscript model just killed a Knight in a single shot! Clearly, a single 3 point model killing a 400+ point model in one hit is hilariously OP, let's never mind the nearly 500 points that Shadowsword "support" would cost. I mean that's practically an auto-include anyway so who cares?

 Melissia wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
No it is entirely relevant because that just means anti-infantry weapons have overall gotten worse

Four shots against a unit with a 6+ save is better than 2 shots against a unit with no save. Seriously, stop overestimating a 6+ save, it's pretty much garbage.

You're the grot going on about a 6+ save, get over it. I'm saying that the stormbolter is just a wash overall.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Your on the right track but they are fearless - you have to kill their commanders first which are characters - for that you need snipers - which cost points a lot of points. He can just ignore your whirlwinds unfortunately - they just dont do enough damage.

Commissars are the only ones who can do the "Summary Execution" bit.

Commissars cannot issue Orders.

 Quickjager wrote:
You're the grot going on about a 6+ save

Don't try to lie to me about how you're not complaining about them getting saves again, when not a post before you were whining about them getting saves. I don't have to put up with that crap.

Not a post before lol.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


WW anti infantry missle is 2d6 str 6 shots with 0 AP. It costs over 100 points. It will average 7 hits 6 wounds and 4 kills 3 kills if they are in cover. 9-12 points a turn.
A marine with a frag missle d6 shots average 3-4 -about 3 average hits 2 average wounds. Less than 2 average kills - less than 1 if they have cover. 3-6 points per turn. Marine with a rocket costs 33 points.
TL assault cannon is the best thing we got - 12 shots - 8 hits - 6 wounds - 5 kills. 15 points a turn.

I'd do the math for the conscripts shooting back but I'll let you in on a secrete - the conscripts win vs basically everything.

The math is a tiny fraction of the picture, as others have pointed out. A big blob can rarely bring all its weapons to bear on a target, and a battle isnt decided soley on "points reduction".

Though i bet a TL Assault Cannon Razorback could pretty effectively kite a strung out conscript squad. And if hordes were becoming a problem in my area, I wouldnt take one whirlwind, Id take 3.

Game on - I'll bring 3 units of 50 conscripts - your move.

Well thats easy, the whirlwinds all fire on one squad, do a bunch of casualties and watch as they lose more to their morsle checks. they do this from 72" away, and immune to return fire.

Or do you think there might be other units involved? And maybe 40k involves things other than math.

I look forward to playing against the coscript horde, and hearing about how theyre sweeping tournaments.

Your on the right track but they are fearless - you have to kill their commanders first which are characters - for that you need snipers - which cost points a lot of points. He can just ignore your whirlwinds unfortunately - they just dont do enough damage.

Im afraid you missed the point. If conscrpts are fearless, theyre operating with support. My whirlwinds will also have support, and thats where your mathammer starts to fail. The context is larger than your math models. Im just not going to be afraid of T3, BS 5+, sv. 5+, S 3 gun hordes. It doesn't matter what your argument is, I put my faith in reasonably competetive players to sort it out in actual games.

The problem with mathhammer is that is pure theory. In reality, the terrain, the distribution of the units, etc... plays even a bigger part of how effective a big blob of 50 units can be than they pure stats.

Is like people claiming that 4000 grots could kill a Warlord titan. Yeah, put 4000 grots in 12" of a Warlord titan at the same time. C'mon, do it in a physical and real table

 Desubot wrote:
Why dont you guys just make some lists

a full one that you would normally use then theory away with no risk of pulling things out of an assback.

On that note, I'd created a notional army list when I saw this thread, trying to imagine how a 'Conscript Spam is OP' army-list might look in the 2000pt BAO format:

++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [92 PL, 1999pts] ++

+ HQ +

Company Commander [3 PL, 35pts]: Power axe, Shotgun

Company Commander [3 PL, 35pts]: Power axe, Shotgun

Company Commander [3 PL, 35pts]: Power axe, Shotgun

Tempestor Prime [2 PL, 45pts]: Power axe, Tempestus Command Rod

Tempestor Prime [2 PL, 45pts]: Power axe, Tempestus Command Rod

+ Troops +

Conscripts [6 PL, 150pts]: 50x Conscript

Conscripts [6 PL, 150pts]: 50x Conscript

Conscripts [6 PL, 150pts]: 50x Conscript

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 68pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 68pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 68pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Heavy Weapon Team: Lascannon
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword

+ Elites +

Commissar [2 PL, 36pts]: Boltgun, Power axe

Commissar [2 PL, 36pts]: Boltgun, Power axe

Commissar [2 PL, 36pts]: Boltgun, Power axe

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 84pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 84pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 84pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 84pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun

Militarum Tempestus Command Squad [3 PL, 84pts]
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun
. Tempestus Scion: Meltagun

+ Fast Attack +

Scout Sentinels [2 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Lascannon

Scout Sentinels [2 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Lascannon

Scout Sentinels [2 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Lascannon

+ Heavy Support +

Basilisks [6 PL, 108pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

Basilisks [6 PL, 108pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

Basilisks [6 PL, 108pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

Manticore [7 PL, 133pts]: Heavy Bolter

++ Total: [92 PL, 1999pts] ++

Idea being you deploy the Scout Sentinels aggressively to push back infiltrators and help provide DS bubblewrap; at least one conscript squad serves as additional bubble wrap, while the other two will likely push. IG infantry squads provide a firebase anchor. Scion C2 squads for the obvious AT deep strikes, with Tempestors to drop with them if I need orders. One commissar dedicated to each Conscript squad, with at least two Company Commanders to provide orders (and redundancy against one being picked off) while the third probably hangs back with the firebase.

I don't imagine it'd do terribly, but spending a minimum of 211 points to make an effective 50-man Conscript blob effective should be - is someone arguing that 211 pts for an effective unit is broken? Same points nets you a Commissar and some 36 Ratlings... notional 4+ in cover plus 36" range sniper rifles that cause mortal wounds on a 6+; that should put a dent in something, I'd hope... and that's just a sterile mathhammer/conjecture anecdote using Ratlings.

Regardless, just wanted to throw out a list that spammed the two 'OP' options for IG; in the end, it's real killing power again relies in the IG heavy slot. I have a MechVet list that gives 3 Conquerors and 2 LR Tank Commanders with 4 Tauroxi, for example; I imagine the two armies would bloody each other pretty brutally, Conscripts or not.

Edit: The one mention I wanted to give and forgot to is... this army has 150 Conscripts alone, not counting the rest of the force. Just moving them alone would be a pain; and good luck finding enough terrain to hide each individual squad of 50 while they advance on the enemy (let alone to share with the three 10-man infantry squads).

last warning for this thread.

Play nice or don't play at all.

GhostRecon wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Why dont you guys just make some lists

a full one that you would normally use then theory away with no risk of pulling things out of an assback.

On that note, I'd created a notional army list when I saw this thread, trying to imagine how a 'Conscript Spam is OP' army-list might look in the 2000pt BAO format:

Quite a pickle of a list.

thats a ton of bodies and a decent amount of answers

surprising how much you can fit into 2k

 Galas wrote:
The problem with mathhammer is that is pure theory. In reality, the terrain, the distribution of the units, etc... plays even a bigger part of how effective a big blob of 50 units can be than they pure stats.

Is like people claiming that 4000 grots could kill a Warlord titan. Yeah, put 4000 grots in 12" of a Warlord titan at the same time. C'mon, do it in a physical and real table

This is 100% spot on, and another reason why I prefer maps that are heavy on terrain.

I still maintain that Conscripts should receive a diminished effect from Commissar/Lord Com Summary Execution. You can sacrifice a conscript to negate up to 5 morale casualties. So let's say you lose 20, and roll a 3. You could execute 5 conscripts to negate this effect, rather than losing 15. Still very effective, and more reasonable than 1 loss.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The problem with mathhammer is that is pure theory. In reality, the terrain, the distribution of the units, etc... plays even a bigger part of how effective a big blob of 50 units can be than they pure stats.

Is like people claiming that 4000 grots could kill a Warlord titan. Yeah, put 4000 grots in 12" of a Warlord titan at the same time. C'mon, do it in a physical and real table

This is 100% spot on, and another reason why I prefer maps that are heavy on terrain.

I still maintain that Conscripts should receive a diminished effect from Commissar/Lord Com Summary Execution. You can sacrifice a conscript to negate up to 5 morale casualties. So let's say you lose 20, and roll a 3. You could execute 5 conscripts to negate this effect, rather than losing 15. Still very effective, and more reasonable than 1 loss.

My contribution to the thread would be:

Add a new special rule to conscripts. Something like Get back in line you rabble!; Instead of restricting casualties due to failed morale checks to one, Commissars and Lord Commissars using the Summary Execution rule halve (rounding up, to a minimum of one) all casualties caused by morale to Conscript units.

@GhostRecon, interesting list. My first impression is that for tanged damage output youre really relying on rhe four artillery vehicles. My thinking is that a solid Lascannon-heavy list could strip the long ranged capability of the artillery pretty quickly, which would leave you mostly at 12" range fore good firepower output. It'd be an interesting fight though.

Side note, my math gives 3 TLAC Razorbacks with Captain support kills 22 odd conscripts a turn at 24", whuch is a mighty solid kill rate.

GhostRecon wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The problem with mathhammer is that is pure theory. In reality, the terrain, the distribution of the units, etc... plays even a bigger part of how effective a big blob of 50 units can be than they pure stats.

Is like people claiming that 4000 grots could kill a Warlord titan. Yeah, put 4000 grots in 12" of a Warlord titan at the same time. C'mon, do it in a physical and real table

This is 100% spot on, and another reason why I prefer maps that are heavy on terrain.

I still maintain that Conscripts should receive a diminished effect from Commissar/Lord Com Summary Execution. You can sacrifice a conscript to negate up to 5 morale casualties. So let's say you lose 20, and roll a 3. You could execute 5 conscripts to negate this effect, rather than losing 15. Still very effective, and more reasonable than 1 loss.

My contribution to the thread would be:

Add a new special rule to conscripts. Something like Get back in line you rabble!; Instead of restricting casualties due to failed morale checks to one, Commissars and Lord Commissars using the Summary Execution rule halve (rounding up, to a minimum of one) all casualties caused by morale to Conscript units.

That's certainly faster and easier :3

ITT:

> 5+ Sv T3 50W units are unstoppable!
> Maths isn't real!
> Conscripts both can and can't fire 200 lasrounds at everything!
> No they can't, yes they can!
> IG should be OP this ed, they were UP last one!
> No they shouldn't, but nids need to be made unplayable!
> IG have unlimited boardspace an support units!
> Spending 4 turns and 3x the guard's pointscost of firepower to disable one unit is a fair trade!
> You're a liar!
> No, you're a liar!
> Mods! Somebody is arguing with me!

Is there anything of actual value to discuss here?

 Insectum7 wrote:
@GhostRecon, interesting list. My first impression is that for tanged damage output youre really relying on rhe four artillery vehicles. My thinking is that a solid Lascannon-heavy list could strip the long ranged capability of the artillery pretty quickly, which would leave you mostly at 12" range fore good firepower output. It'd be an interesting fight though.

Side note, my math gives 3 TLAC Razorbacks with Captain support kills 22 odd conscripts a turn at 24", whuch is a mighty solid kill rate.

Dunno that is quite a lot of drop meltas. i guess it will have trouble against well turtled or well spaced out armies that prevent you from dropping in close enough.

it might not have that much of a drop on heavy infantry though large quantity of dakka from the conscript line, if they ever make it up far should be okish for it.

I think we can all agree conscripts have a fair amount of utility value, everything else... I say 15 ppm.

 Selym wrote:

> IG should be OP this ed, they were UP last one!
> No they shouldn't, but nids need to be made unplayable!

This has been the most crazy one. Is like... "wow, the emphaty". Thats the kind of people you don't want to ear their feedback

 Desubot wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@GhostRecon, interesting list. My first impression is that for tanged damage output youre really relying on rhe four artillery vehicles. My thinking is that a solid Lascannon-heavy list could strip the long ranged capability of the artillery pretty quickly, which would leave you mostly at 12" range fore good firepower output. It'd be an interesting fight though.

Side note, my math gives 3 TLAC Razorbacks with Captain support kills 22 odd conscripts a turn at 24", whuch is a mighty solid kill rate.

Dunno that is quite a lot of drop meltas. i guess it will have trouble against well turtled or well spaced out armies that prevent you from dropping in close enough.

it might not have that much of a drop on heavy infantry though large quantity of dakka from the conscript line, if they ever make it up far should be okish for it.

I hear ya. But, yeah, I think a well defended castle would make a strong stand. It'd be a fun siege. Lots of Lascannon and Missile Launcher troops backed by AC Razorbacks and Whirlwinds, against the mind-wiped horde of bodies.

 Quickjager wrote:
I think we can all agree conscripts have a fair amount of utility value, everything else... I say 15 ppm.

Let's propose the following solution:

Conscripts: 20 ppm
Guardsmen: 16 ppm
Veterans: 12 ppm

Now there are no more OP Guardsmen ^.^

 Selym wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I think we can all agree conscripts have a fair amount of utility value, everything else... I say 15 ppm.

Let's propose the following solution:

Conscripts: 20 ppm
Guardsmen: 16 ppm
Veterans: 12 ppm

Now there are no more OP Guardsmen ^.^

Idk if serious or joking and I'm just bad at sarcasm o.o

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I think we can all agree conscripts have a fair amount of utility value, everything else... I say 15 ppm.

Let's propose the following solution:

Conscripts: 20 ppm
Guardsmen: 16 ppm
Veterans: 12 ppm

Now there are no more OP Guardsmen ^.^

Idk if serious or joking and I'm just bad at sarcasm o.o

I'm a logical person, of course I'm serious. It's the only solution.

Im not sure we will see more that 100 Conscripts (2 squads) played in competitive games. Its just too much to realistically move. I am noticing that Tournaments for 8th are starting to impliment a minimum 4 turn rule... which i like.

I run 2 squads of 40 and its a pain moving and figuring out who is in rapid fire range,orders, retreats ect ect.

6th edition had lots of armies running blob squads.. but never really more that 2 of them. Anything more was unweildy and slow.

for fun games.... its not fun moving 300 conscripts. Not sure 100 is fun either. Blobs have been around and could be utterly rediculous in 7th if you added characters too them and i didnt really see many on the tournament tables.

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You just cant argue with math.

Actually, I can, because your math sucks and plenty of people have pointed out exactly why your math sucks and why you're wrong.

Humm - you don't think I can set up a 50 man unit to maximize against assault units? Setting up in formation like so will guarantee between30-40 bases within 1" contact with a 20 man charging unit due to 3" pile in moves.
000 00000 000
00000000000000000000
00000000000000000000 Conscripts

0000000000 Hormagaunts (this is hormagaunts best case scenario - provided there are is impassible terrain forcing them to hit more central in the ranks.
0000000000
And since you chose what models die - it's relatively easy to ensure you get the most attacks back possible. This number will be between 30 and 40 attacks back - I used the figure of 40 vs 20 hormagaunts in my mathhammer presentation. In my mathhammer presentation

Lets assume this is the result after overwatch (this is without frfsrf - these hormagaunts got a 9 inch charge off out of a trygon and they have a synapse creature in range to make them fearless)
24 hormgaunts - 48 attacks
48/2 = 24 reroll 1's to hit 24/6 = 4 4/2 = 2 = 26 hits 26/2 = 13 reroll 1's 13/6 = (2.2 we will call that 2 for this round) 2/2 =1 = 14 wounds 14/3 = 4.666 (this is the saves number we will call that 5) = 9 wounds. That's 27 points worth of damage - the unit has already taken 30 points of damage during overwatch.
Lets say the bare minimum 30 attacks back from the conscripts.
10 hit - 5 wound - 1 saves = 4 wounds

So the round goes 10 hormaguants dead 9 conscripts dead. 50 points lost for the nids 27 points lost for the conscripts.
Most the Hormagaunts are in base contact and can't consolidate. Those that do aren't able to prevent the unit from falling back.
Round 2 - 41 conscripts fall back - get back into the fight order. 82 las guns shots 82/3 = 27.3 (27) 27/2 = 13.6 (14) 14/6 = 2.333 (well call that 2 saves) = 12 dead hormagaunts = 8 hormagaunts remain. Barely enough to even survive the overwatch damage - and are beaten if they charge.

End results - 41 conscripts remain - 8 hormagaunts remain - this is the average result for a first turn alpha assault against conscripts - hormgaunts managed a long charge - hit the formaton where is was weakest and still - they got plastered. Not in the least bit OP if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedsdead wrote:
Im not sure we will see more that 100 Conscripts (2 squads) played in competitive games. Its just too much to realistically move. I am noticing that Tournaments for 8th are starting to impliment a minimum 4 turn rule... which i like.

I run 2 squads of 40 and its a pain moving and figuring out who is in rapid fire range,orders, retreats ect ect.

6th edition had lots of armies running blob squads.. but never really more that 2 of them. Anything more was unweildy and slow.

for fun games.... its not fun moving 300 conscripts. Not sure 100 is fun either. Blobs have been around and could be utterly rediculous in 7th if you added characters too them and i didnt really see many on the tournament tables.

Easily solved by using rank trays.

I mean, being able to affectively kill gaunts has never really made a unit OP... a unit of 10 zerkers could do it just as easily with their double pile in double fight phase special rule. Killing 20 gaunts (2x their numbers) easily. Also, you're talking 50 scripts to 20 gaunts.

BrianDavion wrote:
Honest question for those making a big deal about this, do you actually have people able to afford multiple conscript blobs locally?

Those 5-man snap fit Cadians are $8.50 on Amazon or just $10 at GW shop. Basically $2 a piece. Not too bad.

I will be running 3x 25 man Conscript Squads in my 1000 point list with some other fun stuff. So please go for them and make a mess of them on the battlefield.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
I mean, being able to affectively kill gaunts has never really made a unit OP... a unit of 10 zerkers could do it just as easily with their double pile in double fight phase special rule. Killing 20 gaunts (2x their numbers) easily. Also, you're talking 50 scripts to 20 gaunts.

its was an equal point value 30 gaunts vs 50 scripts. 150points each. It's not just conscript's all melle units are pretty boned when an enemy can fall back and shoot you in return. Conscripts just epitomize the BS by being super cheap and having insane overwatch and having 200 lasgun shots for a 150 point unit. This edition is supposed to be balanced.

They are still 300$ for 150 Conscripts.

You can go better with historical riflemen and put them a bunch of lasguns. You can have 0,50 cents a model in historicals with ease.

 womprat49 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Honest question for those making a big deal about this, do you actually have people able to afford multiple conscript blobs locally?

Those 5-man snap fit Cadians are $8.50 on Amazon or just $10 at GW shop. Basically $2 a piece. Not too bad.

I paid less for more Cultists off Ebay. It's not out of the question to do the same with guard.

Conscripts seem pretty OP to me. Great damage and survivability for their points cost. I do think you will see them in tournaments if people can bring themselves to paint hundreds of them up.

I agree with those saying there are issues getting them all into range but you dont need to. FRFSRF gives them great fire power. Get back in the fight allows you skip out of combat without consequence. FRFSRF within 12 inches is some of the most effective shooting in the game vs almost anything. Its not amazinf against Rhinos (about the worst target) but its better than most alternatives.

I expect you will see lists which are half conscripts and half artillery park that doesnt need LOS because reasons.

Tyel wrote:
Conscripts seem pretty OP to me. Great damage and survivability for their points cost. I do think you will see them in tournaments if people can bring themselves to paint hundreds of them up.

I agree with those saying there are issues getting them all into range but you dont need to. FRFSRF gives them great fire power. Get back in the fight allows you skip out of combat without consequence. FRFSRF within 12 inches is some of the most effective shooting in the game vs almost anything. Its not amazinf against Rhinos (about the worst target) but its better than most alternatives.

I expect you will see lists which are half conscripts and half artillery park that doesnt need LOS because reasons.

You are very intelligent.

 Melissia wrote:

 Galas wrote:
If conscripts don't give cover saves nor they block LOS... why is people shooting Conscripts in the first place?

The only reason to bother shooting conscripts is if they're on an objective. And even then, it's trivial to just assault them off of it with anything even resembling a dedicated assault unit. Even generic assault marines with no upgrades will, point for point, tear conscripts a new donkey-cave.

Point for point, generic assault marines with no upgrades and no transport will likely find half the unit dead before the reach melee range. With jump packs they do better with deepstriking, but missing the charge out of deepstrike again hurts.

Generally, nothing that isn't a vehicle, monstrous creature, or mounted in a vehicle will perform particularly well against them. Oh or outranging them that works as well. Against MEQ, conscripts are only marginally less powerful than a plasma havoc squad of the same cost would be, and with orders they dramatically outperform plasma havocs against MEQ for their price. Conscripts butcher all other infantry fairly easily.

Still harping on gaunts I see, still ignoring the cost of supporting units, and still ignoring the guy who gets blammed by the Commissar because screaming about Fearless fits your narrative better.

Here's a couple thoughts: why don't the gaunts use their own support units, such as having a support unit initiate the charge to block the overwatch? Without overwatch the gaunts do enough damage to tilt the fight the other way and snowball in their favor. Additionally, since the tactic relies on disengaging and shooting then they're technically not winning in melee, they're shooting.

And if gaunts are the only unit that have this problem, has it occurred to you that maybe it is gaunts who are the outlier? After all, why do you pay nearly the same for a S3 T3 A2 WS4+ gaunt, as you pay for a S4 T4 A3 WS3+ Ork Boy who can also shoot? If Ork Boyz are fairly priced, then perhaps it is Hormagaunts who are overpriced? Especially since the Boyz morale mitigation is built-in, while the gaunts' is external to them.

 ross-128 wrote:
Still harping on gaunts I see, still ignoring the cost of supporting units, and still ignoring the guy who gets blammed by the Commissar because screaming about Fearless fits your narrative better.

Here's a couple thoughts: why don't the gaunts use their own support units, such as having a support unit initiate the charge to block the overwatch? Without overwatch the gaunts do enough damage to tilt the fight the other way and snowball in their favor. Additionally, since the tactic relies on disengaging and shooting then they're technically not winning in melee, they're shooting.

And if gaunts are the only unit that have this problem, has it occurred to you that maybe it is gaunts who are the outlier? After all, why do you pay nearly the same for a S3 T3 A2 WS4+ gaunt, as you pay for a S4 T4 A3 WS3+ Ork Boy who can also shoot? If Ork Boyz are fairly priced, then perhaps it is Hormagaunts who are overpriced? Especially since the Boyz morale mitigation is built-in, while the gaunts' is external to them.

The trygon that got the gaunts there costs almost 200 points. I wasn't ignoring anything.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Still harping on gaunts I see, still ignoring the cost of supporting units, and still ignoring the guy who gets blammed by the Commissar because screaming about Fearless fits your narrative better.

Here's a couple thoughts: why don't the gaunts use their own support units, such as having a support unit initiate the charge to block the overwatch? Without overwatch the gaunts do enough damage to tilt the fight the other way and snowball in their favor. Additionally, since the tactic relies on disengaging and shooting then they're technically not winning in melee, they're shooting.

And if gaunts are the only unit that have this problem, has it occurred to you that maybe it is gaunts who are the outlier? After all, why do you pay nearly the same for a S3 T3 A2 WS4+ gaunt, as you pay for a S4 T4 A3 WS3+ Ork Boy who can also shoot? If Ork Boyz are fairly priced, then perhaps it is Hormagaunts who are overpriced? Especially since the Boyz morale mitigation is built-in, while the gaunts' is external to them.

The trygon that got the gaunts there costs almost 200 points. I wasn't ignoring anything.

Is there any particular reason why it's just sitting there and watching instead of charging in first? It is significantly more capable of absorbing the overwatch than they are. Paying 200 points just for the synapse aura is wasteful, if you're going to put it on the table you should use it.

You're also ignoring the fact that gaunts being over-priced is a much more plausible explanation than conscripts being under-priced, when you consider how both units compare to Ork Boyz.

Tyel wrote:
Conscripts seem pretty OP to me. Great damage and survivability for their points cost. I do think you will see them in tournaments if people can bring themselves to paint hundreds of them up.

I agree with those saying there are issues getting them all into range but you dont need to. FRFSRF gives them great fire power. Get back in the fight allows you skip out of combat without consequence. FRFSRF within 12 inches is some of the most effective shooting in the game vs almost anything. Its not amazinf against Rhinos (about the worst target) but its better than most alternatives.

I expect you will see lists which are half conscripts and half artillery park that doesnt need LOS because reasons.

Terrible damage, unless with 12" and given orders. And then its merely ok-ish.

This thread has gotten out of hand a few times now - I'm going to leave it locked for at least a day. Please remember, you can make your point more effectively by Not being rude... when you wrestle in mud, everyone gets filthy!

Locking...