Guys idk about you but having 4 shots per turn coming out of a 3 point model seems pretty broken. now with better orders than ever, a 40 man blob can output 160 shots... That will be enough to decimate anything, i know people want to math-hammer and say it takes 500 shots to down a landraider, but say i have 2 60 man conscript blobs thats 480 shots coming from them alone, and thats only 180 points. Dont get me wrong as a guard player i love the fact we are becoming more powerful but its not fun when i get to board wipe them turn 3 i like having friends.

You wanna hear some more math hammer?

Basic S3 AP- shooting, which should be effective against light infantry such as conscripts, actually does more points worth of damage (on average per shot) to super heavy infantry such as Terminators. You've mentioned how effective they are at shooting, but thats how massively resilient they are. Add in easy and cheap access to morale immunity to make them unbeatable.

Guardsmen and conscripts are too cheap, plain and simple.

It definitely seems like it at first glance. I suspect you'll see some changes sooner or later from GW.

We have a local guy who has 450 and is planning to use them in 2,000 point games. Theoretically he can roll 1800 dice a turn....

I'm hoping/expecting they'll faq it to where Conscripts can't accept orders and the comissar has to kill d3 to negate morale. Both of those seem like sensible nerfs from a fluff and power perspective.

i cant say that im super upset about it tho. Throughout all of 7th guard was considered a lower tier army. Now i can run an effective brigade that holds nothing but conscripts, basilisks, rough riders, and commissars, as well as company commanders. From a fluff standpoint its really cool that we can have this WW1-esk feeling and manticores will be really cool as well.

The commisar's morale rule makes sense for ever other IG unit except conscripts. Regular guardsmen and conscripts need to be bumped up by 1 point back to their original cost. Either that or increase the cost of weapon options and remove the conscript's ability to receive orders and benefit from commissars .

I think a good change to the summary execution rule is that the commissar may execute a model instead of rolling a D6 for morale (Chosen before rolling). Any casualties in excess of leadership still result in lost models. It essentially means you always roll a 1 for leadership, but if you use it you'll always lose at least one guy.

The commisar rule should have been half the casualties, now it's just dumb.

Conscript squad size should also be reduced to maybe 30.

How the resilience math for brimstones vs these guys ? pretty sure they're the worst!

If they nerf the commissar benefits to conscripts then nids and orcs should have their morale negation benefits also removed. It would be easier just to make them smaller units with no more than 20-30 in a unit. The points and giving conscripts isn't a problem. The only possible problem is how large of a unit you can take of them which amplifies those other areas.

Four shots a turn sounds great, until you realize that said Conscript model has to be within 12" to achieve that number of shots. And only hits on a 5+ with a S3 weapon. And is even weaker than that in CC due to only having one attack at the same level of accuracy. And only has a 5+ save.

You can take a large blob of Conscripts, but all that means is that the Conscripts now deal more damage on average while losing a lot of efficiency against any given attack due to the number of models that will die.

I just played a 1500 point game, using Conscripts, a Shadowsword, some tanks, and some artillery.

I was facing mixed Chaos. He had a lot of horrors, a Stormlord full or renegade mortarmen, and a Helldrake.

I won handily, but it's worth mention that the conscripts were basically gone after turn 2. The Shadowsword and Pask, and to a lesser extent, the Wyvern and Punisher, were far more contributing to my cause.

He had first go and used the Stormlord and mortars on the Conscripts, which reduced them to about a dozen men. I retaliated by melting down the Stormlord with my Shadowsword and hosing down his horrors with my Punisher and Wyvern, killing quite a few as well. I wasn't able to kill the mortars. He brought on the Helldrake and moved up his Horrors, flaming the remaining conscripts, then charging them. He bombarded my other infantry units with his Mortars, erasing them. I returned fire, destroying the Helldrake then unloaded into the depleted Horror blob with my Wyvern and Shadowsword's sponsons, removing them from existence, and focused the other one with the Punisher.

For what it's worth, none of his Horror blobs fled the field. He just spent CP to keep them in place if they were really threatened. A mortar team failed battleshock once, but that was it.

I like it in theory, except:

1) units this large are annoying as feth to play against. Takes forever to deploy, move, and attack. When you're rolling 80+ dice something is wrong with the game. Just like AoS it's just the wrong game system for units this large rolling this many dice.

2) orders I'm fine with, but the commissars ability essentially ignore battleshock is dumb. Real dumb. It should be the way to deal with them. It's silly that they're more resilient to casualties than SM veterans. Probably says more about the morale system maybe.

They suck at killing things, and they do die. I don't think they're OP, just a huge contributor to NPE.

Conscripts are fine at 3 ppm, it's not the cost that breaks them.

The thing that breaks them is;
1) Squadsize.
2) Spam.. You used to be able to take 1 conscript squad for each infantry platoon. Now you can fill your troop-selections with them and nothing else.

Possible fix?
Squadsize of 10-30, not 10-50, and make it so you can only have 1 conscript squad for every, let's say, third infantry squad.
If these changes are insufficient to bring them in line, I guess it's possible to make it harder for them to recieve orders.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I just played a 1500 point game, using Conscripts, a Shadowsword, some tanks, and some artillery.

I was facing mixed Chaos. He had a lot of horrors, a Stormlord full or renegade mortarmen, and a Helldrake.

I won handily, but it's worth mention that the conscripts were basically gone after turn 2. The Shadowsword and Pask, and to a lesser extent, the Wyvern and Punisher, were far more contributing to my cause.

He had first go and used the Stormlord and mortars on the Conscripts, which reduced them to about a dozen men. I retaliated by melting down the Stormlord with my Shadowsword and hosing down his horrors with my Punisher and Wyvern, killing quite a few as well. I wasn't able to kill the mortars. He brought on the Helldrake and moved up his Horrors, flaming the remaining conscripts, then charging them. He bombarded my other infantry units with his Mortars, erasing them. I returned fire, destroying the Helldrake then unloaded into the depleted Horror blob with my Wyvern and Shadowsword's sponsons, removing them from existence, and focused the other one with the Punisher.

For what it's worth, none of his Horror blobs fled the field. He just spent CP to keep them in place if they were really threatened. A mortar team failed battleshock once, but that was it.

I'll call 300 points of Conscripts tying up 600+ points of Super Heavy and mortars for two turns a massive win. Then in the second turn tying up however many points of horros and Helldrakes; sounds like over 1000 points got tied up by 300 points. Seems about on par with what a 3ppm model should do.


IG artillery is fantastic this edition; hiding out of LOS and dishing out a massive amount of high S, AP ignoring shots.

Conscripts are the exact same cost as they were in 7th, where guard was dominated the majority of the time. The only thing that has changed is the way the game is played. Does that justify an increased cost? Maybe, but consider that it will create a domino effect.

If conscripts are 4ppm, infantry squads have to be 5ppm. If infantry squads are 5ppm, heavy weapons teams will also increase in cost. So now by increasing the cost of 1 unit, you just increased the cost of half the army.

Everyone keeps blaming conscripts but maybe the reason is that the new FRFSRF DOUBLED in effectiveness between 7th & 8th edition?

Guard has always been marketed as "drowning your opponent in bodies" and its most abundant resource being body count. In previous edition, that just simply wasn't true. For the first time in the game the guard are reflective of what they were always meant to be and everyone is losing their mind.

fe40k wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I just played a 1500 point game, using Conscripts, a Shadowsword, some tanks, and some artillery.

I was facing mixed Chaos. He had a lot of horrors, a Stormlord full or renegade mortarmen, and a Helldrake.

I won handily, but it's worth mention that the conscripts were basically gone after turn 2. The Shadowsword and Pask, and to a lesser extent, the Wyvern and Punisher, were far more contributing to my cause.

He had first go and used the Stormlord and mortars on the Conscripts, which reduced them to about a dozen men. I retaliated by melting down the Stormlord with my Shadowsword and hosing down his horrors with my Punisher and Wyvern, killing quite a few as well. I wasn't able to kill the mortars. He brought on the Helldrake and moved up his Horrors, flaming the remaining conscripts, then charging them. He bombarded my other infantry units with his Mortars, erasing them. I returned fire, destroying the Helldrake then unloaded into the depleted Horror blob with my Wyvern and Shadowsword's sponsons, removing them from existence, and focused the other one with the Punisher.

For what it's worth, none of his Horror blobs fled the field. He just spent CP to keep them in place if they were really threatened. A mortar team failed battleshock once, but that was it.

I'll call 300 points of Conscripts tying up 600+ points of Super Heavy and mortars for two turns a massive win. Then in the second turn tying up however many points of horros and Helldrakes; sounds like over 1000 points got tied up by 300 points. Seems about on par with what a 3ppm model should do.


IG artillery is fantastic this edition; hiding out of LOS and dishing out a massive amount of high S, AP ignoring shots.

It was a massive win. He didn't have a chance, but not because of the conscripts. Mostly because he didn't have anything half-effective against tanks. Sure, he erased my conscripts, but he didn't erase my tanks while my real power was in tanks and artillery. He just couldn't. His Stormlord tried with it's Lascannons, and didn't do anything to the Shadowsword.

It was an equal chore for the next few turns to rip my way though the Horrors. My entire army's firepower could also remove about one of his Horror units a turn.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

fe40k wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I just played a 1500 point game, using Conscripts, a Shadowsword, some tanks, and some artillery.

I was facing mixed Chaos. He had a lot of horrors, a Stormlord full or renegade mortarmen, and a Helldrake.

I won handily, but it's worth mention that the conscripts were basically gone after turn 2. The Shadowsword and Pask, and to a lesser extent, the Wyvern and Punisher, were far more contributing to my cause.

He had first go and used the Stormlord and mortars on the Conscripts, which reduced them to about a dozen men. I retaliated by melting down the Stormlord with my Shadowsword and hosing down his horrors with my Punisher and Wyvern, killing quite a few as well. I wasn't able to kill the mortars. He brought on the Helldrake and moved up his Horrors, flaming the remaining conscripts, then charging them. He bombarded my other infantry units with his Mortars, erasing them. I returned fire, destroying the Helldrake then unloaded into the depleted Horror blob with my Wyvern and Shadowsword's sponsons, removing them from existence, and focused the other one with the Punisher.

For what it's worth, none of his Horror blobs fled the field. He just spent CP to keep them in place if they were really threatened. A mortar team failed battleshock once, but that was it.

I'll call 300 points of Conscripts tying up 600+ points of Super Heavy and mortars for two turns a massive win. Then in the second turn tying up however many points of horros and Helldrakes; sounds like over 1000 points got tied up by 300 points. Seems about on par with what a 3ppm model should do.


IG artillery is fantastic this edition; hiding out of LOS and dishing out a massive amount of high S, AP ignoring shots.

It was a massive win. He didn't have a chance, but not because of the conscripts. Mostly because he didn't have anything half-effective against tanks. Sure, he erased my conscripts, but he didn't erase my tanks while my real power was in tanks and artillery. He just couldn't. His Stormlord tried with it's Lascannons, and didn't do anything to the Shadowsword.

It was an equal chore for the next few turns to rip my way though the Horrors. My entire army's firepower could also remove about one of his Horror units a turn.

this looks good. but honestly your bat rep is not representative: the problem is not 50 conscripts, the problem is 300 conscripts + artillery. Your list was fine, not cheesetasty.

 gigabite244 wrote:
i cant say that im super upset about it tho. Throughout all of 7th guard was considered a lower tier army. .

That's lousy excuse similar to many "ahahaha your eldar got nerfed to useless" posts I see here. That just shows balance isn't what was hoped for in the first place but revenge and own toys into top...

Wrong thread.

I would say Conscripts must be banned from receiving Orders. They weren't trained well enough to follow Orders.

Commissar needs a rules rework.
What if...
Aura of Discipline was REMOVED
Commissar became Ld 11
Lord Commissar became Ld 12
Commissar Yarrick became Ld13
Infantry Squads became Ld 5 (Sergeant 6)


Summary Execution becomes
"During the Morale Phase, you may execute a model in a Friendly IG Infantry unit within 6". If you do, that unit uses the Commissar's Ld Stat of their own."

This would have the effect of heavily reducing the effects of Shock without completely removing it as it currently does.


Oh, Let's bring back the idea of a Chain of Command influencing the Bravery of Troops around it.

Platoon Commander, Sergeant Kell, Sergeant Harker gain the current Aura of Discipline, but reduced to 3" instead.
This would make them Ld7, meaning that Sergeants are useful unless your Army are all Veterans. Which makes sense since they have Veteran Sergeants.
Actually, let's change this slightly...
Platoon Commander is renamed to Platoon Lieutenant
Sergeant Kell and Sergeant Harker are promoted to Lieutenant Kell and Lieutenant Harker
Veteran Sergeant from Veteran Squad becomes a Lieutenant
Now it's consistent that they are Ld7 because they are Lieutenants


Final thing to fix would be the Regimental Standard. +1 Ld doesn't really work with these rules. Changed to
"Friendly IG Infantry units within 12" subtract 1 from any Morale test they take."

Now the Regimental Standard stacks with the other rules we laid out.


Final things to fix in IG
Infantry Squads can be upto size 40
** Gains "For every 20 Guardsman, one additional guardsman may replace his lasgun with a Special Weapon."

Veterans can be upto size 30...
** Reduces"3 Veterans Special Weapons." into just 1... but
** Gains "For every 10 Veterans, one additional guardsman may replace his lasgun with a Special Weapon."
** Becomes Troop choice.


To Fix Daemons...
Brimstone Horror loses it's Invuln save...

You need 216 heavy bolter shots to kill a landraider. And 346 heavy bolter shots to kill an equivalent points of conscripts in the open. So, even if you up their cost to 4 they'll still be tougher than a landraider vs a number of anti-infantry weapons.

 gigabite244 wrote:
i cant say that im super upset about it tho. Throughout all of 7th guard was considered a lower tier army. Now i can run an effective brigade that holds nothing but conscripts, basilisks, rough riders, and commissars, as well as company commanders. From a fluff standpoint its really cool that we can have this WW1-esk feeling and manticores will be really cool as well.

Cool can my Terminators have 5 wounds each and stay the same price so I can play fluffy finally?

 koooaei wrote:
You need 216 heavy bolter shots to kill a landraider. And 346 heavy bolter shots to kill an equivalent points of conscripts in the open. So, even if you up their cost to 4 they'll still be tougher than a landraider vs a number of anti-infantry weapons.

People don't understand just how good 50 wounds is; and that's before factoring in armor saves and the like.

Even the heaviest of vehicles have 20/40/75 wounds (with 75 wounds being on the 2000/4000 point titans); 50 wounds is a crap ton this edition.

Hitting on 4+ (BS3)
Wounding on 3+ (S4-5)
Saving on 5+ (AP-0)

Has it taking 150.15 shots on average to down a Guardsman squad.

 koooaei wrote:
You need 216 heavy bolter shots to kill a landraider. And 346 heavy bolter shots to kill an equivalent points of conscripts in the open. So, even if you up their cost to 4 they'll still be tougher than a landraider vs a number of anti-infantry weapons.

That is most likely because many vehicles are too vulnerable to S5+ weapons, which they weren't before, while low toughness models are less vulnerable to the same. Vehicle toughness and weapons with high strength should have increased toughness/strength I think. We have also removed most of the anti-horde weapons, so light infantry benefit more. Heavy Bolters were never really good against Conscripts.

But yes, the Conscripts should be nerfed in some way. Because I don't like large swings, I think beginning with them being unable to receive orders are a good start. In that case, they lose half of their theoretical damage output. If that isn't enough, maybe look over the Commissar interact. In any case a I think a rule akin to the following would be preferrable to a flat increase in points, as that would have consequences for the entire list which may not be good.

Untrained:

Conscripts cannot benefit from Orders or Leadership Auras. Summary Execution removes D3 models instead of 1


Of course, it could be bumped to all auras (I just think that whipping them into a frenzy with a priest could be considered fluffy) and D6 models instead of 1. In this case, they would still be the massive roadblock they should be, but morale should kill more models and their damage output is worse than other choices such as normal guardsmen. However, all other alternatives exhausted, I think they should be bumped in points.

As a guard player i can honestly say that on paper consripts look scary and in certain circumstances they can be hella effective from the couple of 8th games I've played, but i think conscripts have a sort of ciriticaln mass and i'd place ut at arounf 100. If your're taking more than 100 conscripts your going to be wasting time and I'd even say points.

They cant do everything, they NEED support and orders which mrans your tying charater and thus more points into them characters, especially charaters like a commisar are easily sniped out because if your daisy chaining conscripts out to syay in bubble range you're not getting all that firepower you could from orders (honestly its overrated). If your sending out multiples of commissars or commanders to negate the effects of sniping your taking points you could have spent elswhere to reinforce a meatsheild that most dangerous in inside of 12 inches and sucks at close combat, wounds most thing on 5-6+ and is as slow as cold syrup unless yet again you pump orders into them.

Offensivly at most I use them for cleanup duty, prime example in two games so far i've busted down vehicles with my heavy weapons to 1w remaining, cue the FRFSRF conscripts okay last wound gone, that as much as I expect from them. On the otherhand another scenario, double bubblewrap to deny deepstrike into my backline and soak charges, it this scenario they are so spread out i can't really bring all the lasguns to bear for overwatch and i just fall them back so other better guns can wipe put the threat down, like cheap hwt, vet squads, special weapon squads, dakkabus Tauroxes, hellhounds, plenty of other stuff. Put them on objectives and just let them score points caise now its number of models that determines control. I think their best suite as a defensive tool and a distraction by using their dice bucket and shaking it menacingly.

But thats okay, focus on the shmucks and pay no mind to the big guns behind the curtain

*Also screw moving more than 100 conscripts, makes me want to bludgeon myself over the head with said dice bucket.*

 Ir0njack wrote:
As a guard player i can honestly say that on paper consripts look scary and in certain circumstances guars can be hella effective from the couple of 8th games I've played but i think conscripts have a sort of ciriticaln mass and i'd place ut at arounf 100. If your're taking more than 100 conscripts your going to be wasting time and I'd even say points.

They cant do everything, they NEED support and orders which mrans your tying charater and thus more points into them characters, especially charaters like a commisar are easily sniped out because if your daisy chaining conscripts out to syay in bubble range you're not getting all that firepower you could from orders (honestly its overrated). If your sending out multiples of commissars or commanders to negate the effects

The only army with good Snipers is IG. So it's not "easily Sniped".

Also, Platoon Commander and Commissar is just 50 points total.

That's literally 200 points for a 50 (52?) man squad

The problem with Conscripts isn't really the cost of a Conscript, it's the Commissar. Huge morale losses should be what makes killing conscripts more efficient but that one cheap model makes it so a conscript blob does not have any counters.

I think conscripts's firepower is a bit overrated. But they don't need to kill stuff to shine.
They can completely shut down any enemy DS, and/or provide an excellent protection against charges from the front. Against assault-heavy armies, it can delay the attack on the important stuff by a couple turns, which is enough for the guard's shooty things to deal some serious pain.
Against shooty-armies that have enough range, they'll get ignored and won't do much.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
We have a local guy who has 450 and is planning to use them in 2,000 point games. Theoretically he can roll 1800 dice a turn....

But.. but... he'll dent the playing table with that much rolling :c

 Talamare wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:
As a guard player i can honestly say that on paper consripts look scary and in certain circumstances guars can be hella effective from the couple of 8th games I've played but i think conscripts have a sort of ciriticaln mass and i'd place ut at arounf 100. If your're taking more than 100 conscripts your going to be wasting time and I'd even say points.

They cant do everything, they NEED support and orders which mrans your tying charater and thus more points into them characters, especially charaters like a commisar are easily sniped out because if your daisy chaining conscripts out to syay in bubble range you're not getting all that firepower you could from orders (honestly its overrated). If your sending out multiples of commissars or commanders to negate the effects

The only army with good Snipers is IG. So it's not "easily Sniped".

Also, Platoon Commander and Commissar is just 50 points total.

That's literally 200 points for a 50 (52?) man squad

Eldar Rangers, Necron deathmarks, SM scouts, Vindicar for any imperial army or Ratlings since they are imperium keyword, with T3 4w and 5+ armor commisars can totally be sniped, especially if you want to try and get in range for that full effect FRFSRF. Also 50 pts is a third of the cost of the squad, but if you're running 200-300 conscripts with their own commissar and commander that's what, 800-1000pts in just bodies with no upgrades, that seems pretty impractical.

fresus wrote:
I think conscripts's firepower is a bit overrated.

They deal a bit more damage to a rhino than an equivalent point cost of leman russ with a battle cannon, lascannon and 2 hb. That's out of rapid fire range.

The fact blasts do random shots, then random hits, is what makes blobs so hard to deal with. What used to be blast should do their maximum number of shots at all times. There is no reason for the double randomness. Template weapons should allow a reroll of the number of shots against 5 or more targets.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact blasts do random shots, then random hits, is what makes blobs so hard to deal with. What used to be blast should do their maximum number of shots at all times. There is no reason for the double randomness. Template weapons should allow a reroll of the number of shots against 5 or more targets.

Or have the rule "If this targets a unit of 20 or more models, it deals max shots and does not have to roll for number of attacks"

Sining wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact blasts do random shots, then random hits, is what makes blobs so hard to deal with. What used to be blast should do their maximum number of shots at all times. There is no reason for the double randomness. Template weapons should allow a reroll of the number of shots against 5 or more targets.

Or have the rule "If this targets a unit of 20 or more models, it deals max shots and does not have to roll for number of attacks"

On top of a big price cut for blast weapons, that could work too.

Also, I think Wounds need to spill over. Lascannon shot should devastate a Conscript blob.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Sining wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact blasts do random shots, then random hits, is what makes blobs so hard to deal with. What used to be blast should do their maximum number of shots at all times. There is no reason for the double randomness. Template weapons should allow a reroll of the number of shots against 5 or more targets.

Or have the rule "If this targets a unit of 20 or more models, it deals max shots and does not have to roll for number of attacks"

On top of a big price cut for blast weapons, that could work too.

Also, I think Wounds need to spill over. Lascannon shot should devastate a Conscript blob.

Game designers (I'm looking at you THQ) tend to just assume the Lascannon is some sort of sniper rifle that is really good against tanks. It's a fething WMD. It makes anything less durable than a Land Raider's amour plating go "whoosh!"

I'd be really excited about conscript spam but I only have 40 models of guardsmen that I always used to run as veterans. I'd get my wallet out but Dark Imperium has already emptied it.

 Selym wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Sining wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The fact blasts do random shots, then random hits, is what makes blobs so hard to deal with. What used to be blast should do their maximum number of shots at all times. There is no reason for the double randomness. Template weapons should allow a reroll of the number of shots against 5 or more targets.

Or have the rule "If this targets a unit of 20 or more models, it deals max shots and does not have to roll for number of attacks"

On top of a big price cut for blast weapons, that could work too.

Also, I think Wounds need to spill over. Lascannon shot should devastate a Conscript blob.

Game designers (I'm looking at you THQ) tend to just assume the Lascannon is some sort of sniper rifle that is really good against tanks. It's a fething WMD. It makes anything less durable than a Land Raider's amour plating go "whoosh!"

Agreed. There is no way that a single human can dissipate the energy of a giant laser beam, but a Land Raider can't. Otherwise the IG would be plastering their tanks in Conscripts rather than giving them lasguns.

Anybody standing close to the beam would be absolutely shafted in anything less durable than power armour.

Honest question for those making a big deal about this, do you actually have people able to afford multiple conscript blobs locally?

BrianDavion wrote:
Honest question for those making a big deal about this, do you actually have people able to afford multiple conscript blobs locally?

If I can count a dude that now lives 200+ miles from me... yes?

Longtime IG players almost always have a spare few dozen lads lying about. I once bought a batch of 60 alternate models because even with some pricey p&p from the other side of the world and UK customs demanding a ton of cash they were still cheaper than GW stuff. Really not hard to find players who'll spam that.

Also bear in mind what happened as soon as people realised Scatbikes were good last ed.

 koooaei wrote:

fresus wrote:
I think conscripts's firepower is a bit overrated.

They deal a bit more damage to a rhino than an equivalent point cost of leman russ with a battle cannon, lascannon and 2 hb. That's out of rapid fire range.

Aaaaaaaand Leman Russ' do gak all damage in 8th. Or did you just forget that.

I'll willing to bet that nobody in this entire thread that is complaining about conscript spam had ever vsed it in 8th. I've never seen a game with players like Warhammer 40k's - you guys just like whining.

Yeah, and?

 Ir0njack wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:
As a guard player i can honestly say that on paper consripts look scary and in certain circumstances guars can be hella effective from the couple of 8th games I've played but i think conscripts have a sort of ciriticaln mass and i'd place ut at arounf 100. If your're taking more than 100 conscripts your going to be wasting time and I'd even say points.

They cant do everything, they NEED support and orders which mrans your tying charater and thus more points into them characters, especially charaters like a commisar are easily sniped out because if your daisy chaining conscripts out to syay in bubble range you're not getting all that firepower you could from orders (honestly its overrated). If your sending out multiples of commissars or commanders to negate the effects

The only army with good Snipers is IG. So it's not "easily Sniped".

Also, Platoon Commander and Commissar is just 50 points total.

That's literally 200 points for a 50 (52?) man squad

Eldar Rangers, Necron deathmarks, SM scouts, Vindicar for any imperial army or Ratlings since they are imperium keyword, with T3 4w and 5+ armor commisars can totally be sniped, especially if you want to try and get in range for that full effect FRFSRF. Also 50 pts is a third of the cost of the squad, but if you're running 200-300 conscripts with their own commissar and commander that's what, 800-1000pts in just bodies with no upgrades, that seems pretty impractical.

You know, it's like saying that invisible deathstars were fine because cullexus.

By the time your average amount of snipers kills 2-3 comissars that didn't bother to sit behind blos, the game will end.

I haven't played with or against conscript spam yet this edition, so take this with a grain of salt, but the main issue is the synergies going on. Cap conscripts at unit size 30, make them roll against leadership to take orders, and say they take a number of losses for morale equal to the tens number of what the squad started with (so a unit built at 30 would take 3 losses from commissar, a unit built at 20 would lose 2, etc). I'd say don't implement all of these at once, but try one, maybe two, see how it works, and then finagle it from there and they'll become useful without breaking too much of the game.

 Intruder wrote:
I've never seen a game with players like Warhammer 40k's - you guys just like whining.

Fairly sure that's the point of being a 40k fan.

Damage shouldn't split over, or you end with the differentiation between horde killers and anti heavy weapons.

Don't broke the system just to fix Conscripts guys.

I have ear 0 complaints again'st Tyranid or Ork hordes, because those are powerfull but balanced.

Conscripts+Commisar are the problem. So don't toss "solutions" that only broke the system just to counter a specific combo of two units. Thats just absurd.

A 6+ save and being incapable of taking orders is just enough to balance the Conscripts. If you want make the Commisar hability kill a model for every 10 models in the unit to cancel morale effects.

More BLAM is better BLAM

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Intruder wrote:
I've never seen a game with players like Warhammer 40k's - you guys just like whining.

Fairly sure that's the point of being a 40k fan.

That's in the licence agreement. Should read those.

 Intruder wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

fresus wrote:
I think conscripts's firepower is a bit overrated.

They deal a bit more damage to a rhino than an equivalent point cost of leman russ with a battle cannon, lascannon and 2 hb. That's out of rapid fire range.

Aaaaaaaand Leman Russ' do gak all damage in 8th. Or did you just forget that.

I'll willing to bet that nobody in this entire thread that is complaining about conscript spam had ever vsed it in 8th. I've never seen a game with players like Warhammer 40k's - you guys just like whining.

What does that matter? The question is are they overpowered and the answer is yes.

Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Intruder wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

fresus wrote:
I think conscripts's firepower is a bit overrated.

They deal a bit more damage to a rhino than an equivalent point cost of leman russ with a battle cannon, lascannon and 2 hb. That's out of rapid fire range.

Aaaaaaaand Leman Russ' do gak all damage in 8th. Or did you just forget that.

I'll willing to bet that nobody in this entire thread that is complaining about conscript spam had ever vsed it in 8th. I've never seen a game with players like Warhammer 40k's - you guys just like whining.

What does that matter? The question is are they overpowered and the answer is yes.

Really? Have you played them? Have you played against them? I've done both, and can tell you they're not nearly as ridiculous as you people think they are. Seriously, unless you've actually seen them in action - just stop. It's embarrassing.

I actually did. They're rediculously good. And they're in an army with even more rediculously good and spammable scion comsquads.
The eldar ig hate is real. You got to tailor your list to oppose this combo. Unless you're playing a horde army yourself.

Shooting the theoretical in the back of the head before you can play against the theoretical= *WIN*

 Intruder wrote:

Really? Have you played them? Have you played against them? I've done both, and can tell you they're not nearly as ridiculous as you people think they are. Seriously, unless you've actually seen them in action - just stop. It's embarrassing.

Yes, I did. They're good, but not game winning or game breaking. They have to work together with their support elements, and those support elements have to have their own power improved by 200 points by the existence of the conscripts.

And yes, they're worth the 200 points because they put a turn or two of CQC buffer between my tanks and the enemy, to prevent my armor from being locked in combat early in the game. By late game they're too depleted to keep being a buffer, but hopefully my armor could have made up the difference with the extra turn of unmolested shooting.

Well I faced 50 inna 500 points game. Swamped the relic unable to move them with lots of firepower so...

For the Space Marines: Get one of the funny Dreads with double Grav-Flux-Bombard and shoot a blob of 50 with just 22D3 Shots at S9 Ap5 and Bs2. Should do the trick.

XeZZ wrote:
Well I faced 50 inna 500 points game. Swamped the relic unable to move them with lots of firepower so...

For the Space Marines: Get one of the funny Dreads with double Grav-Flux-Bombard and shoot a blob of 50 with just 22D3 Shots at S9 Ap5 and Bs2. Should do the trick.

Is that a forgeworld dread? I guess forgeworld will be getting my money finally.

conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.

 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.

How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

XeZZ wrote:
Well I faced 50 inna 500 points game. Swamped the relic unable to move them with lots of firepower so...

For the Space Marines: Get one of the funny Dreads with double Grav-Flux-Bombard and shoot a blob of 50 with just 22D3 Shots at S9 Ap5 and Bs2. Should do the trick.

Great. Countering a brokenly good unit with a brokenly good weapon. Just what I wanted from the new edition...

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

Not much sympathy here from me and I play orks mainly. If you want an army that can do everything all around, then you should be playing space marines.

Certain factions in this game have always been better than some others at some things. Eldar have been good at scooting around and getting objectives, and tended to trounce armies that needed to castle up and not move in objective missions. Tau have been good at ignoring cover, and have trounced armies that depended heavily on it. Dark eldar have been good at wounding against toughness and handily trounced armies that depend on MCs.

Things have never been perfectly fair. Sure some armies (Orks, NIds) cant snipe characters.... but they can do some other things really well. The fact that there are some bad matchups for certain factions or types of lists isnt the end of the world, and it actually makes things somewhat interesting IMO. As long as all the factions are viable to win, then I'm 100% okay with having some types of lists be hard counters against others.

Sure, commissar heavy conscript armies are going to be really good against like ork hordes, or nids... But the second it happens to face a space marine army spamming snipers its going to get recked.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.

How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

Like whomst'ded?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.

How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

Thinking about it orks, chaos, nids have no snipers

the 3 of them all have hordes though.. coincidence? I THINK MAYBE!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.

How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

It hardly matters even for the Armies that CAN bring Snipers

All the Snipers except for Ratlings are pretty over costed/under gunned.

GAdvance wrote:
Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.

would love to see what i think are the old frag rules come back. Lets say any squad using the commissar for leadership of rolls a 6, the commisar is slain and the 6 stands as the leadership roll.

Definitely agree that orders shouldnot work on conscripts. They're far too green to tale generalised orders.

 Talamare wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.

How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

It hardly matters even for the Armies that CAN bring Snipers

All the Snipers except for Ratlings are pretty over costed/under gunned.

Pretty much. And that doesn't even account for the fact certain armies have no Snipers at all (Grey Knights and Deathwatch unless they take allies, but running two armies is not a solution to that problem). Orks have a stupidly high amount of attacks they can pump out, so they can wipe out Conscriptissar fairly easily, same with Tyranids. But low model count armies are never going to be able to move that blob off an objective. Nevermind the fact that the way objectives work, Grey Knights are never going to score an objective in the first place.

The hyperbole of this thread is off the chart!

 Talamare wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.

How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

It hardly matters even for the Armies that CAN bring Snipers

All the Snipers except for Ratlings are pretty over costed/under gunned.

All Imperial Armies can bring Vindicares, which are fantastic and easily negate the morale bonus of Imperial Guard.

Non-Imperial armies I feel for, but something like half the roster can take the best sniper in the game and they can do it in high quantity if they want.

Conscripts could be a problem, looking at Mathammer, but I'd definitely say GW should wait for some major tournaments to get list winners published before we go nuts. People screamed about Space Marines in 7th but most big tournaments were getting won by Eldar, Renegades & Heretics and Chaos. And I say this as a primarily Grey Knight player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 davou wrote:
conscripts arent that broken, but people certainly need to account for characters in list building now.

You need anti infantry, anti tank, anti MC, and anti character.

If you cant handle one part of those list, you will suffer when you face an army that takes advantage of it.

How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

It hardly matters even for the Armies that CAN bring Snipers

All the Snipers except for Ratlings are pretty over costed/under gunned.

Pretty much. And that doesn't even account for the fact certain armies have no Snipers at all (Grey Knights and Deathwatch unless they take allies, but running two armies is not a solution to that problem). Orks have a stupidly high amount of attacks they can pump out, so they can wipe out Conscriptissar fairly easily, same with Tyranids. But low model count armies are never going to be able to move that blob off an objective. Nevermind the fact that the way objectives work, Grey Knights are never going to score an objective in the first place.

You don't have to run two armies beyond the technical sense. You can literally just take an elite slot in a detachment and stuff a Vindicare in it. HQ: Draigo and Voldus, Troops: 3x Terminators, Elite: Vindicator. Done. There's a Battalion.

Punisher23 wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.

would love to see what i think are the old frag rules come back. Lets say any squad using the commissar for leadership of rolls a 6, the commisar is slain and the 6 stands as the leadership roll.

Definitely agree that orders shouldnot work on conscripts. They're far too green to tale generalised orders.

Why the Hell would the Commissar die? So you can feel happy about yourself?

I don't think they need to be nuked from orbit as some people are suggesting. They're strong, sure, maybe borderline OP, but they're not entirely gamebreaking as far as I can tell. Not enough to justify huge, sweeping nerfs, it's just more a "if you're facing Guard you better be prepared for these guys because that's one of their strong points".

And you know, every faction should probably have some units like that. Units that are like "Oh you're facing that faction? Better be ready to deal with X, because it plays right to their strengths."

NM.

But if Conscripts fail a Leadership test, the Commissary should die.

No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

(For those wondering I say 5 because with no leadership modifiers in all but one edge case 5 will mean your typical 10 man Guard squad will only lose a maximum of 1 model if the Sergeant is alive. The edge case is rolling a 6 when 8 models died that turn, in which case with the sergeant and another shmuck alive will terminate the squad)

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

Either that or making commissars only be able to blam one unit a turn seems like the simplest rule change. Allow lord commissars to effect multiple units. So either you can only save one unit of conscripts or have shell out more points

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

(For those wondering I say 5 because with no leadership modifiers in all but one edge case 5 will mean your typical 10 man Guard squad will only lose a maximum of 1 model if the Sergeant is alive. The edge case is rolling a 6 when 8 models died that turn, in which case with the sergeant and another shmuck alive will terminate the squad)

This probably the only idea i could support at all in this thread. Probably the only one that will ever be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
NM.

But if Conscripts fail a Leadership test, the Commissary should die.

So basically worthless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

Either that or making commissars only be able to blam one unit a turn seems like the simplest rule change. Allow lord commissars to effect multiple units. So either you can only save one unit of conscripts or have shell out more points

Sounds redundant with the possibility of multiple commissars.

Auto-killing the Commissar and stripping orders completely are both far too extreme. At most, I would just make conscripts go back to 5e order rules: they have to pass a LD check for the order to succeed. Nothing bad happens if they fail, other than the order being a dud. The commissar would help them pass orders, but even LD8 only gives them slightly more than a 50% chance. Commissars and Lord Commissars going from LD9/10 to LD8/9 as they have in 8th edition is enough of a nerf in that situation, I think that would make the conscripts just unreliable enough to rein them in.

Though they could probably get away with being left as-is too. While they are a bit above the power curve, enough to probably end up being a signature unit, they're not going to cause the kind of weeping and gnashing of teeth that Wrathknights, Riptide Wings, or scatter bikes did. Especially since their offensive power quickly evaporates as they lose models.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

Punisher23 wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.

would love to see what i think are the old frag rules come back. Lets say any squad using the commissar for leadership of rolls a 6, the commisar is slain and the 6 stands as the leadership roll.

Definitely agree that orders shouldnot work on conscripts. They're far too green to tale generalised orders.

Why the Hell would the Commissar die? So you can feel happy about yourself?

No, so the effect of the commisars aura s not a given thing and there is a potential risk. Say a squad of conscripts takes 20 casualties from the horriffic, ravaging hordes. Do you not think that a group of new recruits/forcibly recruited troops might think feth this and en mass overpower the commissar whos shooting them and leg it? Would only happen on a roll of a 6, so its a small chance that can use a command reroll.

It's almost as if people forget that in 40k, human life is the cheapest component in the galaxy.

People loosing their mind over a horde IG army? What? I'd be happy to play against it. It's fluffy and also morbid - essentially conscripted men in 40k are glorified meat shields, or cannon fodder for a meat grinder.

It's almost as if people still want to play 7th style elite, low count armies than moving on to the age of 8th proper big armies... Conscripts aren't the problem - people unable or unwilling to adapt to beat them is.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
It's almost as if people forget that in 40k, human life is the cheapest component in the galaxy.

People loosing their mind over a horde IG army? What? I'd be happy to play against it. It's fluffy and also morbid - essentially conscripted men in 40k are glorified meat shields, or cannon fodder for a meat grinder.

It's almost as if people still want to play 7th style elite, low count armies than moving on to the age of 8th proper big armies... Conscripts aren't the problem - people unable or unwilling to adapt to beat them is.

You realize some armies have no choice but to be low model count, right? Or is these some magic way to cut the price of Grey Knight units in half? Or should GK players shelve their armies for an entire edition?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
It's almost as if people forget that in 40k, human life is the cheapest component in the galaxy.

People loosing their mind over a horde IG army? What? I'd be happy to play against it. It's fluffy and also morbid - essentially conscripted men in 40k are glorified meat shields, or cannon fodder for a meat grinder.

It's almost as if people still want to play 7th style elite, low count armies than moving on to the age of 8th proper big armies... Conscripts aren't the problem - people unable or unwilling to adapt to beat them is.

You realize some armies have no choice but to be low model count, right? Or is these some magic way to cut the price of Grey Knight units in half? Or should GK players shelve their armies for an entire edition?

If you want to play low count armies, that's fine. Just be aware that elite armies like that aren't meant to be able to take on hordes. That's what allies are for. The "magical points reduction" you sarcastically put won't happen, so you either:

A. Ally with another army that you can go head to head with hordes

B. Try to develop new tactics to beat the hordes with only your faction

C. Suck it up, and continue to play the way you want.

But, you went with D. Whine that my small elite force can't compete with a numberless horde army, so call for the horde army choice unit to be nerfed so I can continue as I please without needing to change.

You have options. Everyone has. People need to be pro active in developing counters than calling for nerfs.

There is no counterplay when the only answer is, "see that IG army? Make sure half of your army is IG to deal with them".

I'm playing Grey Knights, end of story.

 Quickjager wrote:
There is no counterplay when the only answer is, "see that IG army? Make sure half of your army is IG to deal with them".

I'm playing Grey Knights, end of story.

Pretty much my thought exactly. Why should I have to play 75% Not-Grey Knights to have any hope of winning with my Grey Knights?

PS, I don't play Grey Knights.

I already said earlier in thread that conscripts need mild tweaks, but deciding they are not allowed orders and also kill a commissar on a failed check? This is getting kind of stupid. Just go with the above "reduce by 5" method if you want morale to still kick them in the teeth. If you want reduced firepower just cap them at 30 and force them to roll to take orders like previous editions. Nerfing them so hard that they become something you never see on the field ever is NOT the solution.

Sidenote: I seem to remember a time when the Grey Knights were specifically in a codex that included Stormtroopers/Scions and Inquisitors, as well as special permissions to take a small section of Guard units. I remember almost starting an army (before school, work, etc got in the way) back then specifically because of that mix of interesting features. Play pure power armor if you want, but really they are one of the armies that makes complete sense adding an Inquisitor and Scions to, its less adding in another codex and more patching the units back in.

kurhanik wrote:
...they are one of the armies that makes complete sense adding an Inquisitor and Scions to...

Yea that is why I have 30 scions and Tauroxes w/ gatling guns, 4 Inquisitors, and a Knight. But let us go back to my previous point... I don't want a half IG ARMY!

If I put Scions in my army guess what that does!

From a practical perspective it also means I have to spend MORE points on IG because I can't put this entire formation in Deep Strike reserves; you know where Scions want to be either Grav-Chuting in w/ meltas or vanilla deepstriking with Plasma. Tauroxes are great, but they don't provide the alpha strike such an combined army needs to survive off of momentum-wise.

EDIT: This is HORDES edition, where number the number of single wound models you can field matters the most. The core rules support it far more than anything else. If the answer to a problem is ALLY IN THE PROBLEM then there is a bigger problem.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

(For those wondering I say 5 because with no leadership modifiers in all but one edge case 5 will mean your typical 10 man Guard squad will only lose a maximum of 1 model if the Sergeant is alive. The edge case is rolling a 6 when 8 models died that turn, in which case with the sergeant and another shmuck alive will terminate the squad)

This is an excellent solution. The real problem is the commissar's ability scaling absurdly well with the conscripts, and this would fix that without making the commissars worthless.

 Quickjager wrote:

EDIT: This is HORDES edition, where number the number of single wound models you can field matters the most. The core rules support it far more than anything else. If the answer to a problem is ALLY IN THE PROBLEM then there is a bigger problem.

Something Something Previous Edition we sucked so too bad something something you're just a whiner.

Agreed. So much agreed. I shouldn't have to play a horde army to deal with a horde army. Horde armies should have ways for Elite armies to deal with them, because horde armies will never have a problem with elite armies due to probability and how everything can wound everything.

Get a load of these people saying "use anti-horde tactics" and "build your army to deal with hordes." Have you ever actually tried building an IG army using the new list? Those hordes account for like 20% of your points. So great, I built the perfect anti-infantry-horde army and now I'm completely unequipped to deal with the other 80% which consists of tanks and artillery hiding behind walls. Then there are the scions who deep-strike anti-armor weapons flawlessly without needing pods at a very cheap price. Where other armies have to specialize, the IG get to have their cake, eat it too, and then have some more cake.

Real News wrote:
Get a load of these people saying "use anti-horde tactics" and "build your army to deal with hordes." Have you ever actually tried building an IG army using the new list? Those hordes account for like 20% of your points. So great, I built the perfect anti-infantry-horde army and now I'm completely unequipped to deal with the other 80% which consists of tanks and artillery hiding behind walls. Then there are the scions who deep-strike anti-armor weapons flawlessly without needing pods at a very cheap price. Where other armies have to specialize, the IG get to have their cake, eat it too, and then have some more cake.

Is it chocolate?

I'm struggling to build a viable TAC list for CWE that can account for the fact that over the next year I'm likely to be facing both 'Script spam and mechanised marines with few opportunities to adapt my list...

Any ideas that won't get shot off the table T1 due to the presence of 10-16 lascannons?

 Talamare wrote:

 Ir0njack wrote:
As a guard player i can honestly say that on paper consripts look scary and in certain circumstances guars can be hella effective from the couple of 8th games I've played but i think conscripts have a sort of ciriticaln mass and i'd place ut at arounf 100. If your're taking more than 100 conscripts your going to be wasting time and I'd even say points.

They cant do everything, they NEED support and orders which mrans your tying charater and thus more points into them characters, especially charaters like a commisar are easily sniped out because if your daisy chaining conscripts out to syay in bubble range you're not getting all that firepower you could from orders (honestly its overrated). If your sending out multiples of commissars or commanders to negate the effects

The only army with good Snipers is IG. So it's not "easily Sniped".

Are you serious?

So Eldar Rangers, Necron Deathmarks, Tau Sniper Drones, Space Marine Scouts, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some other stuff don't exist?

Also, Platoon Commander and Commissar is just 50 points total.

That's literally 200 points for a 50 (52?) man squad

That's also an Elite slot, an HQ slot, and a Troops slot.

Still not sure what the big deal is about Conscripts. Oooh, ahhhh. They're cheap.

Welcome to forever?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No, that's not a good idea at all.

All that really needs to be done is to make the Commissar's rule reduce the number of casualties by a number, rather than make it a flat maximum of 1.

If it was something like 'Reduce the number of casualties suffered by a failed Morale test by 5 (to a minimum of 1)' or some other value other than 5 it'd be fine. That way murderising 1/2 a 50 man conscript blob wouldn't result in a single guy dying, but would result in some a decent chunk of the unit fleeing.

(For those wondering I say 5 because with no leadership modifiers in all but one edge case 5 will mean your typical 10 man Guard squad will only lose a maximum of 1 model if the Sergeant is alive. The edge case is rolling a 6 when 8 models died that turn, in which case with the sergeant and another shmuck alive will terminate the squad)

Counter point:

Make it so that when you perform the Battle Shock test(because you are still supposed to perform one from what I'm reading, you just only ever lose one model to it from the Commissars) any rolls of 6 result in the Commissar taking a Mortal Wound in addition to the one model being lost.

The coward shot first or his buddies tried to frag the Commissar as well, that kind of thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

EDIT: This is HORDES edition, where number the number of single wound models you can field matters the most. The core rules support it far more than anything else. If the answer to a problem is ALLY IN THE PROBLEM then there is a bigger problem.

Something Something Previous Edition we sucked so too bad something something you're just a whiner.

Agreed. So much agreed. I shouldn't have to play a horde army to deal with a horde army. Horde armies should have ways for Elite armies to deal with them, because horde armies will never have a problem with elite armies due to probability and how everything can wound everything.

It's called getting into assault.

Remember that the Commissars are only protected against shooting. So assault the bastard, rip his head off and watch the Conscripts scatter.

How am I getting into assault with a guy surrounded by a blob of cheap wounds? Or is there some weird rule that allows me to flat-out ignore units so I can just charge the guy in the center.

And yes, IG are the only ones with good Snipers. Ratling Snipers cost half as much as a squad of SM Scouts and are just as effective. Rangers are even worse in terms of price.

Your idea for the Commissar is interesting. I could see that if the number of casualties is greater than the Commissar's Leadership, that something bad happens to him. It's gonna be hard to keep all those boys in line if bodies pile up. Perhaps even the Summary Execution ability going away after the unit takes casualties greater than his leadership.

I hope conscript armies become the new meta because my baneblade (or in today's case Stormhammer) companies will have a field day.

Already fought Orcs and Nids and lol hordes.

Yea, I already mentioned this in another thread but ironically Baneblade WANTS to be assaulted by hordes. The whole world is topsy turvy...

casvalremdeikun wrote:How am I getting into assault with a guy surrounded by a blob of cheap wounds? Or is there some weird rule that allows me to flat-out ignore units so I can just charge the guy in the back?

Jump pack units and multi-charges come to mind. There's no penalty to charging units for assalting multiple units now.

Keep in mind that Conscripts are terrible at CC, and even if they Fall Back to shoot their expected damage output vs MEQ is abysmal without FRFSRF.

Real News wrote:Get a load of these people saying "use anti-horde tactics" and "build your army to deal with hordes." Have you ever actually tried building an IG army using the new list? Those hordes account for like 20% of your points. So great, I built the perfect anti-infantry-horde army and now I'm completely unequipped to deal with the other 80% which consists of tanks and artillery hiding behind walls. Then there are the scions who deep-strike anti-armor weapons flawlessly without needing pods at a very cheap price. Where other armies have to specialize, the IG get to have their cake, eat it too, and then have some more cake.

You do realize that Conscripts even with buffs have extremely low damage output in shooting, right? A full blob of 50 with FRFSRF at 24 inches will, thanks to BS5+, only deal about 3 wounds to an MEQ squad assuming perfectly average rolls. At 12 inches this jumps to almost 7 wounds, but good luck getting 50 28mm models within 12 inches of a 28mm model on a 6x4 board. Even without other units on the board, it isn't easy.

Units no longer receive cover from having another friendly unit intervene in the line of fire from an enemy unit. Long-range weapons can shoot through Conscripts like they aren't there.

Selym wrote:
I'm struggling to build a viable TAC list for CWE that can account for the fact that over the next year I'm likely to be facing both 'Script spam and mechanised marines with few opportunities to adapt my list...

Any ideas that won't get shot off the table T1 due to the presence of 10-16 lascannons?

Shuriken Cannons and Scatter Lasers on Infantry squads and Wave Serpents. Add Windrisers with Shuriken Cannons to taste.

Personally I would be far more worried about four Imperial Knights at 2000pts than Conscript spam. Fun fact: assuming all die rolls follow the arithmetic mean, you need an average of 27 BS3+ Lascannon shots to kill a single Imperial Knight.

casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:

EDIT: This is HORDES edition, where number the number of single wound models you can field matters the most. The core rules support it far more than anything else. If the answer to a problem is ALLY IN THE PROBLEM then there is a bigger problem.

Something Something Previous Edition we sucked so too bad something something you're just a whiner.

Agreed. So much agreed. I shouldn't have to play a horde army to deal with a horde army. Horde armies should have ways for Elite armies to deal with them, because horde armies will never have a problem with elite armies due to probability and how everything can wound everything.

If only horde armies mostly spammed easy-to-kill models, like Conscripts. Or Gaunts. Or Boyz. But sadly, we all know how durable those units are to most every weapon in the game.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
How am I getting into assault with a guy surrounded by a blob of cheap wounds? Or is there some weird rule that allows me to flat-out ignore units so I can just charge the guy in the center.

I think you really need to read how Charge and the Fight phase work.

Page 182 in the main rulebook.

Also, theoretically you can ignore the units so you can just charge the guy in the center if he isn't fully surrounded by a circle of Conscripts. You just need to be able to make a 12 inch Charge and be able to circle around to end within 1" of the Commissar.

And yes, IG are the only ones with good Snipers. Ratling Snipers cost half as much as a squad of SM Scouts and are just as effective. Rangers are even worse in terms of price.

You've just put two different things into effect there. You put cost and a qualifier as to them "being good".

If you really want to get into the nitty gritty details...
Ratlings can't be affected by Orders. They have "Militarum Auxilia" as their Regiment.
Space Marine Scouts can be affected by abilities for the Chapters.
Rangers? Same thing.

Your idea for the Commissar is interesting. I could see that if the number of casualties is greater than the Commissar's Leadership, that something bad happens to him. It's gonna be hard to keep all those boys in line if bodies pile up. Perhaps even the Summary Execution ability going away after the unit takes casualties greater than his leadership.

Yeah...no.

If that were to be the case then Conscripts would be utterly useless, seeing as how the base unit size is 20.

In all honesty, I don't know how people thought things would shake out with Guard but man is it hilarious seeing the outrage at one of the more ridiculous units from before(Conscript blobs) being just as irritating as before.

Conscripts have gotten literally nothing but buffs from the core rule changes. To the extent they are worth FAR MORE than any previous edition, for less investment,

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE BETTER

-They get an armor save against what used to be AP5 weapons

-They are better at holding objectives due to it being based on how models you have near it now

-They cannot be wiped in a sweeping advance now

-They have a Commissar cannot be engaged in a challenge or shot (snipers stay the same)

-They autopass orders

-They fear no templates

-They can wound anything on 6, yes it a long shot, yes it is still a buff, no I am not worried about one 50 man blobs shooting

-They have tactical choices between staying in as a tarpit or falling back and shooting.

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE WORSE

-Don't provide cover saves as intervening models

WHAT DIDN'T CHANGE

-They can still be used to bubblewrap tanks from assault

-They deny board room for Deepstrike, Infiltration, etc.

-They perform admirably as a tarpit

-Stats



They have literally been nothing but buffed; its insane they still have a 5+ armor save when the weapons they feared lost essentially half their offensive power. It;s insane they can hold objectives better than any other unit. Objectives should have been contested based off leadership.

Knock them down to a 6+ armor save and no orders. They will still be good.

I think they're too expensive atm. Baneblades can kill them.

Should be 2ppm.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
How am I getting into assault with a guy surrounded by a blob of cheap wounds? Or is there some weird rule that allows me to flat-out ignore units so I can just charge the guy in the center.

And yes, IG are the only ones with good Snipers. Ratling Snipers cost half as much as a squad of SM Scouts and are just as effective. Rangers are even worse in terms of price.

Your idea for the Commissar is interesting. I could see that if the number of casualties is greater than the Commissar's Leadership, that something bad happens to him. It's gonna be hard to keep all those boys in line if bodies pile up. Perhaps even the Summary Execution ability going away after the unit takes casualties greater than his leadership.

I'll say it again. The entire Imperium has good snipers. The entire Imperium can take a Vindicare as if it was part of their own, specific unit roster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
Conscripts have gotten literally nothing but buffs from the core rule changes. To the extent they are worth FAR MORE than any previous edition, for less investment,

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE BETTER

-They get an armor save against what used to be AP5 weapons

-They are better at holding objectives due to it being based on how models you have near it now

-They cannot be wiped in a sweeping advance now

-They have a Commissar cannot be engaged in a challenge or shot (snipers stay the same)

-They autopass orders

-They fear no templates

-They can wound anything on 6, yes it a long shot, yes it is still a buff, no I am not worried about one 50 man blobs shooting

-They have tactical choices between staying in as a tarpit or falling back and shooting.

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE WORSE

-Don't provide cover saves as intervening models

WHAT DIDN'T CHANGE

-They can still be used to bubblewrap tanks from assault

-They deny board room for Deepstrike, Infiltration, etc.

-They perform admirably as a tarpit

-Stats



They have literally been nothing but buffed; its insane they still have a 5+ armor save when the weapons they feared lost essentially half their offensive power. It;s insane they can hold objectives better than any other unit. Objectives should have been contested based off leadership.

Knock them down to a 6+ armor save and no orders. They will still be good.

Yeah, they got buffed. It's not that horrid. Take some snipers and then battle shock them.

I have no idea why objectives should be based off leadership. You'd end up with ties more often than not and everything would go nuts.

Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

Or, instead of everybody losing their heads over 3 point models, we can focus on a *real* issue, such as the number of hits for former blast and template weapons being unacceptably low? Buff quantity of dice rolled per shooting attack, and those pesky 1W models that are so totally-OP-GW-please-nerf will be easier to kill without depending on morale losses.

I think the anti-IG people in this thread secretly want to see 20 conscripts flee after turn 1. It's almost as if conscripts aren't the problem, but the burning desire to abuse morale mechanics is.

@Kanluwen: "Ratlings can't be affected by Orders. They have "Militarum Auxilia" as their Regiment. "

This is incorrect - you can have your regiment as <Militarum Auxilia>; the only regiment that you CAN'T take is <Militarum Tempestus>, as it's specifically spelled out in the Regiment rules.

Also, don't forget that Ratlings can shoot and scurry when they overwatch; aka they'll never be able to be charged.

@KommissarKiln: Blast weapons likely need some scaling shots on them, as some of the weapons already have - that said, this only weakens infantry heavy/horde armies (Orks), instead of just Conscripts.

And even if you did increase blasts? You just make them even more valuable, as 50 wounds > any other squad size on the table, especially at 3ppm; 30 Ork Boyz is still 30 wounds - perhaps a KFF will increase this number relatively - but that's 180+80 for 30 Boyz+KFF versus 150+20 for Conscripts. They're still winning, no matter the comparison.

The issue is that the main way you fight massive blobs, morale, doesn't apply to them.

 Quickjager wrote:
Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

The big bad from the Silmarillion?

Anyway, cheeky references aside, snipers are your answer. Maybe that's not how you want to play: I sympathize. I hate using non-walker vehicles. Just an aesthetic thing.

But that's the counterplay option. Both players then get to show their tactical minds in positioning. Not liking that is one thing, but it doesn't make anyone overpowered. We should wait for some tournaments instead to see what ends up at the top tables.

 KommissarKiln wrote:
Or, instead of everybody losing their heads over 3 point models, we can focus on a *real* issue, such as the number of hits for former blast and template weapons being unacceptably low? Buff quantity of dice rolled per shooting attack, and those pesky 1W models that are so totally-OP-GW-please-nerf will be easier to kill without depending on morale losses.

I think the anti-IG people in this thread secretly want to see 20 conscripts flee after turn 1. It's almost as if conscripts aren't the problem, but the burning desire to abuse morale mechanics is.

I would love for that to happen. I would love for you to stop making baseless accusations.

Audustum wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

The big bad from the Silmarillion?

Anyway, cheeky references aside, snipers are your answer. Maybe that's not how you want to play: I sympathize. I hate using non-walker vehicles. Just an aesthetic thing.

But that's the counterplay option. Both players then get to show their tactical minds in positioning. Not liking that is one thing, but it doesn't make anyone overpowered. We should wait for some tournaments instead to see what ends up at the top tables.

What if your army doesn't have snipers? I play Orks- we don't get sniper units.

Sure, I make it to melee, maybe kill the majority of the squad - but then I get shot up everything else; we can't ignore the frontline either since we don't have good artillery/anti-armor units that can hit the backline vehicles.

180+62 points of Boyz+Weirdboy for jump ends up losing to 150+20 of Conscripts. And if I take smaller squads (say in trukks) to try and time everything hitting the Conscript wall at once - well, that just lowers the odds that I'll be able to full clear a Conscript platoon in the first place, and at an even higher cost.

Audustum wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

The big bad from the Silmarillion?

Anyway, cheeky references aside, snipers are your answer. Maybe that's not how you want to play: I sympathize. I hate using non-walker vehicles. Just an aesthetic thing.

But that's the counterplay option. Both players then get to show their tactical minds in positioning. Not liking that is one thing, but it doesn't make anyone overpowered. We should wait for some tournaments instead to see what ends up at the top tables.

I would love snipers being apart of my army if it didn't take 2 vindicare to kill one commissar.

fe40k wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

The big bad from the Silmarillion?

Anyway, cheeky references aside, snipers are your answer. Maybe that's not how you want to play: I sympathize. I hate using non-walker vehicles. Just an aesthetic thing.

But that's the counterplay option. Both players then get to show their tactical minds in positioning. Not liking that is one thing, but it doesn't make anyone overpowered. We should wait for some tournaments instead to see what ends up at the top tables.

What if your army doesn't have snipers? I play Orks- we don't get sniper units.

Sure, I make it to melee, maybe kill the majority of the squad - but then I get shot up everything else; we can't ignore the frontline either since we don't have good artillery/anti-armor units that can hit the backline vehicles.

180+62 points of Boyz+Weirdboy for jump ends up losing to 150+20 of Conscripts. And if I take smaller squads (say in trukks) to try and time everything hitting the Conscript wall at once - well, that just lowers the odds that I'll be able to full clear a Conscript platoon in the first place, and at an even higher cost.

If you look a few pages I did note Orks were one potential issue. That's more easily resolved by simply introducing something to Orks rather than nerfing Astra Militarum. Though since you're also a horde army we need to wait and see which horde actually comes out on top in competitive settings before making changes in my opinion.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Keep try to dismiss me by going "take some snipers" you sound just like Morgoth. Doubt you even know who that is.

Because you could inflict wounds to the opposing unit and whoever has the higher leadership at the end of the player turn could be in control. If they're locked into fighting because it stayed the same it portrays an ongoing struggle. It would reward having actual high leadership in an army be on the frontlines.

The big bad from the Silmarillion?

Anyway, cheeky references aside, snipers are your answer. Maybe that's not how you want to play: I sympathize. I hate using non-walker vehicles. Just an aesthetic thing.

But that's the counterplay option. Both players then get to show their tactical minds in positioning. Not liking that is one thing, but it doesn't make anyone overpowered. We should wait for some tournaments instead to see what ends up at the top tables.

I would love snipers being apart of my army if it didn't take 2 vindicare to kill one commissar.

It takes 2 shots from a Vindicare to kill a Commissar on average, though you have a not insignificant chance of doing it in 1. Conscripts aren't exactly long range. They're not going to alpha strike you unless you alpha strike them. Wait for turn 2 to deploy your reserves.

Or, if you really want to deploy them turn 1, just take 2 Vindicares. They're only 90 points each.

180 points for a T1 kill, 90 for a T2 kill (though at this point commissar is behind LoS). The Imperial Guard players I know aren't dumb, they know how to play the game.

fe40k wrote:
Sure, I make it to melee, maybe kill the majority of the squad - but then I get shot up everything else; we can't ignore the frontline either since we don't have good artillery/anti-armor units that can hit the backline vehicles.

so you want your boys to be able to mulch the things they assault, and then be invulnerable to counterattack afterwards?

And we do have stuff that can hit back line vehicles, its just not the focus of our army most of the time. Tankbustas, koptas with rokkits and saws, mobile trukk nobs, hell, we can even literally teleport now.

Having snipers is kinda stupid mechanically and in fluff for orks. We got some of the cheapest beatiest troops and HQ's in the game, thats our millieux, not tactical dismantling of complex synergies. if an army is put together with a ton of synergies in mind, it WILL do well against a beater horde of orks. But it will also fall apart to a sniper heavy army. The sniper heavy army will fall apart to the beater horde, and there are tons of other flavors or rock-paper-scissors left to find too. This is good for the game, not bad.

We a brick not a scalpel.

 Quickjager wrote:
180 points for a T1 kill, 90 for a T2 kill (though at this point commissar is behind LoS). The Imperial Guard players I know aren't dumb, they know how to play the game.

The Vindicare can literally deep strike (independent operative) with a 72" range rifle. This is where tactics come into play. You want to put him in places where, for the Commissar to get out of LoS, he has to move away from where the conscript blob wants to go. The range on his buff is only 6". Then the Astra Militarum player can either choose to get those conscripts where he needs them or keep his Commissar safe.

Audustum wrote:

It takes 2 shots from a Vindicare to kill a Commissar on average, though you have a not insignificant chance of doing it in 1.

Dont forget we now have rerolls to make the less likely stuff happen a bit more often.

fe40k wrote:
@Kanluwen: "Ratlings can't be affected by Orders. They have "Militarum Auxilia" as their Regiment. "

This is incorrect - you can have your regiment as <Militarum Auxilia>; the only regiment that you CAN'T take is <Militarum Tempestus>, as it's specifically spelled out in the Regiment rules.

By your logic, I can have a Regiment called "Officio Prefectus" and issue Orders to Commissar Yarrick.

No. That's not how it is intended to work and playing it like that is being a twit. You and I both know that you're making a disingenuous argument and that you and others like you would even remotely think that it is somehow intended to work like that is mindfreakingboggling.

Also, don't forget that Ratlings can shoot and scurry when they overwatch; aka they'll never be able to be charged.

I'd suggest you read "Shoot Sharp and Scarper". It doesn't say that it can be used while Overwatching.

 davou wrote:

Audustum wrote:

It takes 2 shots from a Vindicare to kill a Commissar on average, though you have a not insignificant chance of doing it in 1.

Dont forget we now have rerolls to make the less likely stuff happen a bit more often.

Fair point!

 davou wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Sure, I make it to melee, maybe kill the majority of the squad - but then I get shot up everything else; we can't ignore the frontline either since we don't have good artillery/anti-armor units that can hit the backline vehicles.

so you want your boys to be able to mulch the things they assault, and then be invulnerable to counterattack afterwards?

And we do have stuff that can hit back line vehicles, its just not the focus of our army most of the time. Tankbustas, koptas with rokkits and saws, mobile trukk nobs, hell, we can even literally teleport now.

Having snipers is kinda stupid mechanically and in fluff for orks. We got some of the cheapest beatiest troops and HQ's in the game, thats our millieux, not tactical dismantling of complex synergies. if an army is put together with a ton of synergies in mind, it WILL do well against a beater horde of orks. But it will also fall apart to a sniper heavy army. The sniper heavy army will fall apart to the beater horde, and there are tons of other flavors or rock-paper-scissors left to find too. This is good for the game, not bad.

We a brick not a scalpel.

I'm actually in favor of Orks getting Snipers.

"Fifteen Hours" had a great little bit with Gretchin sniper teams fighting human sniper teams in no man's land between the Orks and the Guard...of course the Gretchin were themselves the bait for the Guard snipers, who Kommandos would go after.

Mmmmm then they'll just daisy chain the conscripts till the commissar is in a out of LOS ruin corner or tank. What now.

 Quickjager wrote:
Mmmmm then they'll just daisy chain the conscripts till the commissar is in a out of LOS ruin corner or tank. What now.

Then someone has just made a wonderful daisy chain for an assault army to pull themselves in with?

This kind of nonsense is getting ridiculous. Play the frigging game or don't, quit whining about Conscripts and Commissars.

Na, I'll keep talking to you like I talked to the Eldar in 6th.

 Quickjager wrote:
Mmmmm then they'll just daisy chain the conscripts till the commissar is in a out of LOS ruin corner or tank. What now.

This literally invalidates nothing I just told you. You have a deep striking, 72" gun. You can definitely position it to see into those nooks.

Anyway, making a conga-line like this takes up a lot of movement and limits where those Conscripts can actually go. Unless you're playing some weird variant where every objective he needs is hanging out on his half of the table (in which case that's a mission problem on your end) then you get an advantage just from forcing him/her to do this.

Not to mention, the range on the Conscripts' guns is terrible so if they're making lines this long than you've won half the battle: they can't actually shoot most of your army because they're stretching far back. Just shoot at them yourself and make holes in the chain.

Alright you know what I'm done; I'm just gonna wait for the tourney players to show you all otherwise. You guys are just insane that you can't see their utility for that amount of points is dumb.

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright you know what I'm done; I'm just gonna wait for the tourney players to show you all otherwise. You guys are just insane that you can't see their utility for that amount of points is dumb.

Considering your whole argument has been these ridiculous scenarios of daisy chaining Conscripts across the board or Commissars being hidden from sight but able to give out their aura still while ignoring counterpoint...might be for the best.

It is a 6 inch fething aura, I can hide a commissar behind a chimera, baneblade, or LRBT. Sorry daisy chaining is real, Thunderdome did it all the time last edition.

EDIT: Sorry you can't see past your own faction bias, tournies will tell the truth.

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright you know what I'm done; I'm just gonna wait for the tourney players to show you all otherwise. You guys are just insane that you can't see their utility for that amount of points is dumb.

"I'm not crazy, so the only conclusion is that everyone else is crazy!"}

Personally I am bringing stormhammer companies to tournaments; those will knock the conscript armies down a peg and hopefully into the loser's bracket.

Oh wait conscripts don't have counters I'm screwed.

Yeah, I'm gonna side with Quickjager on this one - seen a few batreps where this exact damn thing happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright you know what I'm done; I'm just gonna wait for the tourney players to show you all otherwise. You guys are just insane that you can't see their utility for that amount of points is dumb.

"I'm not crazy, so the only conclusion is that everyone else is crazy!"}

Personally I am bringing stormhammer companies to tournaments; those will knock the conscript armies down a peg and hopefully into the loser's bracket.

Oh wait conscripts don't have counters I'm screwed.

Yes, it's very handy that everyone can take stormhammers...

 Selym wrote:
Yeah, I'm gonna side with Quickjager on this one - seen a few batreps where this exact damn thing happens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright you know what I'm done; I'm just gonna wait for the tourney players to show you all otherwise. You guys are just insane that you can't see their utility for that amount of points is dumb.

"I'm not crazy, so the only conclusion is that everyone else is crazy!"}

Personally I am bringing stormhammer companies to tournaments; those will knock the conscript armies down a peg and hopefully into the loser's bracket.

Oh wait conscripts don't have counters I'm screwed.

Yes, it's very handy that everyone can take stormhammers...

Can't they?

The Imperium keyword covers half the armies in the game, so there's that.

Surely Xenos have superheavy tanks as well? Let me look at their Forge World index... I know for a fact that Orks and Eldar do. Oh, and Tau have that big suit, the Tau'nar, and Necrons have the Tesseract Vault. Oh, and Chaos just have Loyalist tanks so nothing lost there. Let me think of what other factions don't have a superheavy tank of some kind... will get back to you.

I'm also loving how Conscripts are such an amazing Distraction Carnifex that it's as if the rest of the army can't even be targeted by shooting until they're 100% dead, or that fast Fly units can get past them for short range weapons or melee, or throwing a cheap transport will tarpit their tarpit, or that in any mission besides Relic, there will be other (or no) objectives to hold... Did I mention ignoring them and targetting the rest of the army? That might work.

Complaining about someone sinking 1200 points into 6 full size units with Commissars and Commanders is fair, as is being unhappy with other types of spam; complaining that the units in question exist and have synergy is ridiculous.

Conscripts are okay. Some forge world unit can kill them easily. You just have to pay 3x what a plastic model would cost - work with crap resin - and buy a whole new book of rules to use it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Conscripts are okay. Some forge world unit can kill them easily. You just have to pay 3x what a plastic model would cost - work with crap resin - and buy a whole new book of rules to use it.

That's a whole 'nother set of complaints.

We can start another thread about forge world pricing, quality, and rules, if you'd like? We've only had 30 of those or so, 'bout time for another anyways.

 Quickjager wrote:
It is a 6 inch fething aura, I can hide a commissar behind a chimera, baneblade, or LRBT. Sorry daisy chaining is real, Thunderdome did it all the time last edition.

Then kill the Chimera, Baneblade, or LRBT. When it dies, it can potentially kill the Elite slot Commissar(5+ save with 3W and no Invulnerable Save--a LRBT or Chimera exploding can cause D3 Mortal Wounds within 6"). A Baneblade dying can cause D6 Mortal Wounds within 2D6".

And by the way, that's on each unit. Killing those vehicles you're talking about will take an investiture of high S, rend modifying multi-wound firepower but the end result can kill that Commissar potentially AND start putting Mortal Wounds onto the Conscripts you're whining about.

So please. Tell me more about how you want to hide them next to a vehicle when all vehicles this edition have some kind of "Explodes" rule.

EDIT: Sorry you can't see past your own faction bias, tournies will tell the truth.

Yeah, okay...

You know what tournaments commonly tell us?

Not a whole hell of a lot applicable to the game as a whole. Because tournaments tend to have house rules in effect that aren't going to be in effect for most people's actual games.

Ooooh a D6 chance to do D3 wounds, which is exactly the amount a Commissar has. Lets math that out... 5% chance.

 Quickjager wrote:
Ooooh a D6 chance to do D3 wounds, which is exactly the amount a Commissar has. Lets math that out... 5% chance.

And yet, there's still a chance that it happens...

Maybe you should just start using Commissar Lords for your "example" instead since they have an Invulnerable Save and more Wounds.

But realistically, if you're having trouble taking down a 5+ 3W character using Snipers or maneuvering and then whining about how "the tournament players will show you all!"?

My only reply to you is "Get good, son!".

Why would I? I can take almost 2 commissars for 1 Lord commissar, for more wounds more board presence of the aura AND it is two models.

 Kanluwen wrote:

fe40k wrote:
@Kanluwen: "Ratlings can't be affected by Orders. They have "Militarum Auxilia" as their Regiment. "

This is incorrect - you can have your regiment as <Militarum Auxilia>; the only regiment that you CAN'T take is <Militarum Tempestus>, as it's specifically spelled out in the Regiment rules.

By your logic, I can have a Regiment called "Officio Prefectus" and issue Orders to Commissar Yarrick.

No. That's not how it is intended to work and playing it like that is being a twit. You and I both know that you're making a disingenuous argument and that you and others like you would even remotely think that it is somehow intended to work like that is mindfreakingboggling.

Also, don't forget that Ratlings can shoot and scurry when they overwatch; aka they'll never be able to be charged.

I'd suggest you read "Shoot Sharp and Scarper". It doesn't say that it can be used while Overwatching.

You're so wrong on both points it's not even funny - I'll give you a chance to point out the rules that state that I'm incorrect.

1) With regards to "Militarum Auxilia" and orders: what's the difference between the following two Regiments?

Militarum Tempestus
Militarum Auxilia

The difference is that one of them explicitly can't be taken as a <Regiment> keyword. Additionally, it quite clearly spells out in the Regiment keyword block at the beginning of the Index that if a unit doesn't have <Regiment>, instead it will be from whatever Regiment that is listed as a keyword; which "Militarum Auxilia" is. And since you need a fluff explanation as well - are you honestly trying to tell me that the entire Auxilia support division of the Astra Militarum has NO officers? Who gives them any form of orders then?

And yes, "Officio Prefectus" IS a Regiment - it's the regiment of command and control, the Officer division. There's no benefit atm to taking it, as it excludes you from giving bonuses to other regiments - but you COULD take it if you wanted.

2) Ratlings "Shoot Sharp and Scarper" - "Immediately after making a shooting attack, this unit can move as if it where the Movement phase (though it cannot advance as part of this move)."
2.1) Charge Phase - Overwatch: "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge Phase), and uses all the normal rules, except that a 6 is always required to hit, irrespective of the firer's Ballistic Skill or Modifiers."

You'll notice that the Ratling ability does not have any restrictions detailing that it can only be used in the Shooting Phase; all it requires is a "shooting attack"; you'll also notice that Overwatch is "resolved like a normal shooting attack". So, in short, Ratlings can move after firing overwatch.

Shortest version: You're wrong on all counts. I can backup my sources with the rules, can you? At the moment, all I'm seeing is "I don't feel like it should be played that way", not any actual rules - but again, you're welcome to prove me wrong.

The Tesseract Vault can delete a third of a conscipt squad, on average, in a turn with just its groovy star-god powers. Then the Tesla Spheres will wipe out (*does quick headmath*) about 10 more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not saying that this means conscripts are fine or whatnot -- I just find it funny.

 Quickjager wrote:
Why would I? I can take almost 2 commissars for 1 Lord commissar, for more wounds more board presence of the aura AND it is two models.

Sure, and now you're spending 2 Elites slots just for redundancy. If tournaments have detachment limits, which I'm certain they will, that's fewer Ratlings and Scion Comm Squads to abuse, even more so when you add in one or more officers for orders. Again, why even bother prioritizing the screen unit when you can deal with actual damage dealers in an IG army?

Alright honest question, do you think a IG army will not be able to at least fill ONE Bridge detachment? I don't really see an issue with them being able to do it and still have pretty good units fulfilling the requirements?

And you're missing the point Kiln, there are armies that don't have the capability of shooting effectively past the screening unit, they have to assault.

EDIT: Lol Bridge detachment.

Come to think of it -- I hadn't really realized how good C'tan are against hordes.

1/6 of a squad deleted, each turn. Any size of squad I might add, as long as they have 1 wound apiece.

Three C'tan + a Tesseract Vault destroys, or almost destroys, any squad of 1-wound infantry in the game

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright honest question, do you think a IG army will not be able to at least fill ONE Bridge detachment? I don't really see an issue with them being able to do it and still have pretty good units fulfilling the requirements?

And you're missing the point Kiln, there are armies that don't have the capability of shooting effectively past the screening unit, they have to assault.

EDIT: Lol Bridge detachment.

If you can't shoot past the screening unit...then flank around the screening unit?

All you have to do is ensure that the closest unit when firing is the character, then poof the screen is pointless.

Shhh, I'm trying to talk the Ork, not you guardsmen.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright honest question, do you think a IG army will not be able to at least fill ONE Bridge detachment? I don't really see an issue with them being able to do it and still have pretty good units fulfilling the requirements?

And you're missing the point Kiln, there are armies that don't have the capability of shooting effectively past the screening unit, they have to assault.

EDIT: Lol Bridge detachment.

If you can't shoot past the screening unit...then flank around the screening unit?

All you have to do is ensure that the closest unit when firing is the character, then poof the screen is pointless.

The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is not a valid source of tactics. This is the 41st millennium, and We Shall Know No Boardspace!

Sidenote: Place the commissar inside the blob. And possibly next to 1+ other blobs. Now you can't shoot him, or assault him, and there is little surrounding boardspace for flanking.

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright honest question, do you think a IG army will not be able to at least fill ONE Bridge detachment? I don't really see an issue with them being able to do it and still have pretty good units fulfilling the requirements?

And you're missing the point Kiln, there are armies that don't have the capability of shooting effectively past the screening unit, they have to assault.

EDIT: Lol Bridge detachment.

Wait, are you trying to say that any army that can fill a brigade should suck? What's wrong with having good units?

You're severely overreacting to how good conscripts are. Nobody is denying that they're good, but they're not so strong that they need an Exterminatus dropped on them. Considering the position that IG was in during 7th edition, nobody should be surprised that they're a lot stronger in 8th. They got some much-needed buffs and now they're good, really good due to how the core rules were re-structured, but they're not broken. Trying to pre-emptively nuke them back to 7th edition joke status would be complete overkill.

I never said that now stop projecting. That is what your maglight is for guardsman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you guys simply cannot engage a conversation on good faith then I'm sad. Attempting to twist a statement's meaning to such an extent you would make the Keyword <Chapter> or <Regiment> abusers look tame is paltry and pitiable.

Many of your counterpoints are so insulting they don't even deserve the denigration you seem to expect.

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright honest question, do you think a IG army will not be able to at least fill ONE Bridge detachment? I don't really see an issue with them being able to do it and still have pretty good units fulfilling the requirements?

And you're missing the point Kiln, there are armies that don't have the capability of shooting effectively past the screening unit, they have to assault.

EDIT: Lol Bridge detachment.

If you can't shoot past the screening unit...then flank around the screening unit?

All you have to do is ensure that the closest unit when firing is the character, then poof the screen is pointless.

The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer is not a valid source of tactics. This is the 41st millennium, and We Shall Know No Boardspace!

Sidenote: Place the commissar inside the blob. And possibly next to 1+ other blobs. Now you can't shoot him, or assault him, and there is little surrounding boardspace for flanking.

And now you have to consistently maintain that or lose the Commissar.

But seriously, this kind of theoryhammering is just "But what if..." crap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:
I never said that now stop projecting. That is what your maglight is for guardsman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you guys simply cannot engage a conversation on good faith then I'm sad. Attempting to twist a statement's meaning to such an extent you would make the Keyword <Chapter> or <Regiment> abusers look tame is paltry and pitiable.

Many of your counterpoints are so insulting they don't even deserve the denigration you seem to expect.

Weren't you done awhile ago?

And really, trying to claim that these counterpoints are being made in bad faith is laughable from the guy who constantly has to change the scenario.

Talking about conscripts and talking about how certain community members act is quite different. It used to be bringing up a series of counterpoints used to be called debating.

 Quickjager wrote:
Talking about conscripts and talking about how certain community members act is quite different. It used to be bringing up a series of counterpoints used to be called debating.

Wern't you the one complaining that I sounded exactly like Morgoth?

Do you know Morgoth?

fe40k wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

fe40k wrote:
@Kanluwen: "Ratlings can't be affected by Orders. They have "Militarum Auxilia" as their Regiment. "

This is incorrect - you can have your regiment as <Militarum Auxilia>; the only regiment that you CAN'T take is <Militarum Tempestus>, as it's specifically spelled out in the Regiment rules.

By your logic, I can have a Regiment called "Officio Prefectus" and issue Orders to Commissar Yarrick.

No. That's not how it is intended to work and playing it like that is being a twit. You and I both know that you're making a disingenuous argument and that you and others like you would even remotely think that it is somehow intended to work like that is mindfreakingboggling.

Also, don't forget that Ratlings can shoot and scurry when they overwatch; aka they'll never be able to be charged.

I'd suggest you read "Shoot Sharp and Scarper". It doesn't say that it can be used while Overwatching.

You're so wrong on both points it's not even funny - I'll give you a chance to point out the rules that state that I'm incorrect.

1) With regards to "Militarum Auxilia" and orders: what's the difference between the following two Regiments?

Militarum Tempestus
Militarum Auxilia

The difference is that one of them explicitly can't be taken as a <Regiment> keyword. Additionally, it quite clearly spells out in the Regiment keyword block at the beginning of the Index that if a unit doesn't have <Regiment>, instead it will be from whatever Regiment that is listed as a keyword; which "Militarum Auxilia" is. And since you need a fluff explanation as well - are you honestly trying to tell me that the entire Auxilia support division of the Astra Militarum has NO officers? Who gives them any form of orders then?

And yes, "Officio Prefectus" IS a Regiment - it's the regiment of command and control, the Officer division. There's no benefit atm to taking it, as it excludes you from giving bonuses to other regiments - but you COULD take it if you wanted.

2) Ratlings "Shoot Sharp and Scarper" - "Immediately after making a shooting attack, this unit can move as if it where the Movement phase (though it cannot advance as part of this move)."
2.1) Charge Phase - Overwatch: "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge Phase), and uses all the normal rules, except that a 6 is always required to hit, irrespective of the firer's Ballistic Skill or Modifiers."

You'll notice that the Ratling ability does not have any restrictions detailing that it can only be used in the Shooting Phase; all it requires is a "shooting attack"; you'll also notice that Overwatch is "resolved like a normal shooting attack". So, in short, Ratlings can move after firing overwatch.

Shortest version: You're wrong on all counts. I can backup my sources with the rules, can you? At the moment, all I'm seeing is "I don't feel like it should be played that way", not any actual rules - but again, you're welcome to prove me wrong.

Sorry but Kanluwen is 100% correct; GW specifically addressed this on their Guard vs Custodes live stream game and confirmed that Militarum Auxilia is not a regimental keyword, and you cannot slap it onto an officer to make him a member of the Militarum Auxilia. For the sake of what you are trying to do the keyword <Militarum Auxilia> might as well be <Space Wolves>.

edit: It may have been in their IG faction discussion video, but either way they specifically addressed this issue.

 Quickjager wrote:
Talking about conscripts and talking about how certain community members act is quite different. It used to be bringing up a series of counterpoints used to be called debating.

Bringing up a series of counterpoints certainly is called debating.

Bringing up a series of counterpoints, having them debunked/countered and then insinuating that someone is "arguing in bad faith" as a counter is called being disingenuous and potentially skirting close to trolling.

ITT: Pointing out that conscripts hordes can be ludicrously tough is wrong and you should leave Dakka for it.

We've gone meta and started arguing that we shouldn't be allowed to argue about the subject.

And yet you had no answer to Selym, "you have to consistently maintain that"...? What does that even mean? It is such a non-answer to a specific but very much grounded in reality and likely situation. Why is it hard to maintain that? What threats exist? You have no counterpoint except to dismiss everyone by calling their contribution, "...this kind of theoryhammering is just "But what if..." crap."

To maintain 6 inches from your own units when you decide where they go and who dies is child's play or dare I say easy enough for a Ogryn?

You should be more polite to Selym who has done nothing except come out with two posts this conversation.

EDIT: Now three posts.

 Selym wrote:

Sidenote: Place the commissar inside the blob. And possibly next to 1+ other blobs. Now you can't shoot him, or assault him, and there is little surrounding boardspace for flanking.

People are putting out all sorts of ways to protect the commissar, and all are valid, but they all can't be done simultaneously. If a commissar is in the middle of the blob, it's not behind LoS terrain and is sniperable. If it's daisy chained to behind terrain, there's less troops in the blob and the commissar is potentially vulnerable to deep strike. Without a fair number of models around the commissar he can get engaged in melee. If the conscripts are bunched up they are not taking up much footprint to protect other elements of the army. If they're spread out then their shooting is ineffective.

Tabletop play is different to math hammer basically.

 davou wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
How are armies with no ability to pick out Characters supposed to deal with this then?

Not much sympathy here from me and I play orks mainly. If you want an army that can do everything all around, then you should be playing space marines.

Certain factions in this game have always been better than some others at some things. Eldar have been good at scooting around and getting objectives, and tended to trounce armies that needed to castle up and not move in objective missions. Tau have been good at ignoring cover, and have trounced armies that depended heavily on it. Dark eldar have been good at wounding against toughness and handily trounced armies that depend on MCs.

Things have never been perfectly fair. Sure some armies (Orks, NIds) cant snipe characters.... but they can do some other things really well. The fact that there are some bad matchups for certain factions or types of lists isnt the end of the world, and it actually makes things somewhat interesting IMO. As long as all the factions are viable to win, then I'm 100% okay with having some types of lists be hard counters against others.

Sure, commissar heavy conscript armies are going to be really good against like ork hordes, or nids... But the second it happens to face a space marine army spamming snipers its going to get recked.

It's the other way around, actually. Conscripts lose to Hormagaunts, and Ork Boyz, but absolutely wreck Space Marines.

I've been playing games using them. Works far better on armies that rely on snipes to dislodge them [small elite armies like Space Marines], and are only good for soaking Tyranids' first turn charge to give you two turns of shooting.

Snipers is still not the answer.

As people have said, it takes roughly 2 turns for a Vindicare to kill a Commissar. There isn't just a single Commissar...

It takes every other army even more points to be able to succeed with Snipers.

 Talamare wrote:
Snipers is still not the answer.

As people have said, it takes roughly 2 turns for a Vindicare to kill a Commissar. There isn't just a single Commissar...

It takes every other army even more points to be able to succeed with Snipers.

Sounds like you need to take two of them and not complain because I'm going to bring up Imperium can bring Imperium and therefore it's your own fault.

That's really what some of you sound like, mildly exaggerated of course.

 Quickjager wrote:
Do you know Morgoth?

Look, this doesn't really help. I'm sure as most powerful of the Ainur, Morgoth would have no problems dealing with hordes. Commissars or no comissars, I'm sure his mere dreadful presence would send the poor conscripts fleeing. But we are trying to come up with counters that are viable even if one happens not to be a all powerful lord of darkness.

 Quickjager wrote:
Conscripts have gotten literally nothing but buffs from the core rule changes. To the extent they are worth FAR MORE than any previous edition, for less investment,

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE BETTER

-They get an armor save against what used to be AP5 weapons

-They are better at holding objectives due to it being based on how models you have near it now

-They cannot be wiped in a sweeping advance now

-They have a Commissar cannot be engaged in a challenge or shot (snipers stay the same)

-They autopass orders

-They fear no templates

-They can wound anything on 6, yes it a long shot, yes it is still a buff, no I am not worried about one 50 man blobs shooting

-They have tactical choices between staying in as a tarpit or falling back and shooting.

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE WORSE

-Don't provide cover saves as intervening models

WHAT DIDN'T CHANGE

-They can still be used to bubblewrap tanks from assault

-They deny board room for Deepstrike, Infiltration, etc.

-They perform admirably as a tarpit

-Stats



They have literally been nothing but buffed; its insane they still have a 5+ armor save when the weapons they feared lost essentially half their offensive power. It;s insane they can hold objectives better than any other unit. Objectives should have been contested based off leadership.

Knock them down to a 6+ armor save and no orders. They will still be good.

Yeah, thats what I think should be. A 6+ armor save and no orders. Or no Orders and the commisar killing a model for every 10 models in the unit to retain the formation.

Hordes aren't the problem. They are, at last, viable. The problem is the Conscripts+Commisar combo.

Ork and Tyranids hordes are very balanced.

And the problem of Grey Knights vs Hordes is not that Hordes as a whole are very powerfull, is that GK are pretty crappy right now. The solution isn't making hordes useless, just buffing GK.

As a chaos player, I really want to know what my snipers are. Really do tell. The closest I can get is the one sorcerer power, but since you can only cast it once per turn it is like a vindicari but I can't spam more if I want to.

 Quickjager wrote:
Conscripts have gotten literally nothing but buffs from the core rule changes. To the extent they are worth FAR MORE than any previous edition, for less investment,

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE BETTER

-They get an armor save against what used to be AP5 weapons

-They are better at holding objectives due to it being based on how models you have near it now

-They cannot be wiped in a sweeping advance now

Never could be. If they didn't have a commissar attached last edition, they weren't taken. And that's before Stubborn and the Commissar's leadership is taken into account.

-They have a Commissar cannot be engaged in a challenge or shot (snipers stay the same)

No, because he's part of the unit. When the unit gets targeted, unless you have precision shot, you can't target him until he's the last guy in the squad or the closest model. So it's the same effect.

-They autopass orders

Lord Commissars are Ld 10. That's almost a guaranteed pass, almost.

-They fear no templates

-They can wound anything on 6, yes it a long shot, yes it is still a buff, no I am not worried about one 50 man blobs shooting

-They have tactical choices between staying in as a tarpit or falling back and shooting.

This is by far the biggest buff. The fact that a unit assaulting them can still be shot by other units in the army because they fall back is really the buff they got. Which is entirely offset by the fact that Hormagaunts, Seraphim, and a myriad of other things can charge on turn 1 and 2 where before a turn 3 charges was pretty much the earliest feasible for all but the fastest units.

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE WORSE

-Don't provide cover saves as intervening models

WHAT DIDN'T CHANGE

-They can still be used to bubblewrap tanks from assault

-They deny board room for Deepstrike, Infiltration, etc.

-They perform admirably as a tarpit

-Stats



They have literally been nothing but buffed; its insane they still have a 5+ armor save when the weapons they feared lost essentially half their offensive power. It;s insane they can hold objectives better than any other unit. Objectives should have been contested based off leadership.

Knock them down to a 6+ armor save and no orders. They will still be good.

They definitely should keep the 5+ armorsave. They have the same equipment as guardsmen. At best, they could receive orders less efficiently to represent crappier training, but without them completely they'd go right back to being garbage.

Commissars could also go up in price, which would be the far more correct thing to do than nerfing conscripts themselves, considering they service more than one unit while last edition Lord Commissars gave stubborn to all nearby units but could only use Summary Execution on the unit that they're in and regular Commissars only serviced the unit they were in, and Conscripts could only be supported by a Lord Commissar.



One more thing to all the people saying to take snipers:

Snipers are ineffective. I hide my Commissar behind a LoS-blocking terrain piece, or one of my many tanks, along side my Company Commander, and you can't get to him.

Look to Boyz and Hormagaunts, and Seraphim and Dominions with Flamers and Punishers, and Fire Warriors and Battlesuits with Flamers to churn through the Conscripts. Snipers are 100% ineffective against conscripts.

I played a game against Tyranids yesterday. I siezed the initiative with a CP and melted the Swarmlord and a squad of 'gaunts with my first turn of shooting. Then, he brought up a Trygon Prime and a squad of Hormagaunts and charged into the Conscripts, made the charge with both units and killed on the order of 30 of them right then and there.

The conscripts were effective, and worth the 210 points spent on them and their support since it save my tanks from that turn 1 charge, and gave me the opportunity I needed for my Punisher and Shadowsword and Pask to melt through the Hormagaunts, but I don't think they're unfair. They allow me to not be instantly locked down by something like Hormagaunts that makes a turn 1 charge. If I hadn't stolen the Initiative, he would have been able to also shoot my conscripts with the Termigaunt squad I wiped out, and/or brought up the Termigaunt squad that was hiding in the back of his board holding a point, and would have killed them all and been able to consolidate his Hormagaunts 6" into 3 of my tanks and my lascannon team to lock them off too.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

Sorry but Kanluwen is 100% correct; GW specifically addressed this on their Guard vs Custodes live stream game and confirmed that Militarum Auxilia is not a regimental keyword, and you cannot slap it onto an officer to make him a member of the Militarum Auxilia. For the sake of what you are trying to do the keyword <Militarum Auxilia> might as well be <Space Wolves>.

edit: It may have been in their IG faction discussion video, but either way they specifically addressed this issue.

I'll try to find these videos - it's possible that I'm wrong, in which case I'll rescind my statements. Thank you for providing a source.

However, you can see based on current wording, how I could think that it's possible to take Militarum Auxilia as a regiment choice.

They really should put this in the FAQ if they've already made a decision on it.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Conscripts have gotten literally nothing but buffs from the core rule changes. To the extent they are worth FAR MORE than any previous edition, for less investment,

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE BETTER

-They get an armor save against what used to be AP5 weapons

-They are better at holding objectives due to it being based on how models you have near it now

-They cannot be wiped in a sweeping advance now

Never could be. If they didn't have a commissar attached last edition, they weren't taken. And that's before Stubborn and the Commissar's leadership is taken into account.

-They have a Commissar cannot be engaged in a challenge or shot (snipers stay the same)

No, because he's part of the unit. When the unit gets targeted, unless you have precision shot, you can't target him until he's the last guy in the squad or the closest model. So it's the same effect.

-They autopass orders

Lord Commissars are Ld 10. That's almost a guaranteed pass, almost.

-They fear no templates

-They can wound anything on 6, yes it a long shot, yes it is still a buff, no I am not worried about one 50 man blobs shooting

-They have tactical choices between staying in as a tarpit or falling back and shooting.

This is by far the biggest buff. The fact that a unit assaulting them can still be shot by other units in the army because they fall back is really the buff they got. Which is entirely offset by the fact that Hormagaunts, Seraphim, and a myriad of other things can charge on turn 1 and 2 where before a turn 3 charges was pretty much the earliest feasible for all but the fastest units.

WHAT CHANGED FOR THE WORSE

-Don't provide cover saves as intervening models

WHAT DIDN'T CHANGE

-They can still be used to bubblewrap tanks from assault

-They deny board room for Deepstrike, Infiltration, etc.

-They perform admirably as a tarpit

-Stats



They have literally been nothing but buffed; its insane they still have a 5+ armor save when the weapons they feared lost essentially half their offensive power. It;s insane they can hold objectives better than any other unit. Objectives should have been contested based off leadership.

Knock them down to a 6+ armor save and no orders. They will still be good.

They definitely should keep the 5+ armorsave. They have the same equipment as guardsmen. At best, they could receive orders less efficiently to represent crappier training, but without them completely they'd go right back to being garbage.

Commissars could also go up in price, which would be the far more correct thing to do than nerfing conscripts themselves, considering they service more than one unit while last edition Lord Commissars gave stubborn to all nearby units but could only use Summary Execution on the unit that they're in and regular Commissars only serviced the unit they were in, and Conscripts could only be supported by a Lord Commissar.



One more thing to all the people saying to take snipers:

Snipers are ineffective. I hide my Commissar behind a LoS-blocking terrain piece, or one of my many tanks, along side my Company Commander, and you can't get to him.

Look to Boyz and Hormagaunts, and Seraphim and Dominions with Flamers and Punishers, and Fire Warriors and Battlesuits with Flamers to churn through the Conscripts. Snipers are 100% ineffective against conscripts.

I played a game against Tyranids yesterday. I siezed the initiative with a CP and melted the Swarmlord and a squad of 'gaunts with my first turn of shooting. Then, he brought up a Trygon Prime and a squad of Hormagaunts and charged into the Conscripts, made the charge with both units and killed on the order of 30 of them right then and there.

The conscripts were effective, and worth the 210 points spent on them and their support since it save my tanks from that turn 1 charge, and gave me the opportunity I needed for my Punisher and Shadowsword and Pask to melt through the Hormagaunts, but I don't think they're unfair. They allow me to not be instantly locked down by something like Hormagaunts that makes a turn 1 charge. If I hadn't stolen the Initiative, he would have been able to also shoot my conscripts with the Termigaunt squad I wiped out, and/or brought up the Termigaunt squad that was hiding in the back of his board holding a point, and would have killed them all and been able to consolidate his Hormagaunts 6" into 3 of my tanks and my lascannon team to lock them off too.

I agree with this completely, people also run bad all comer lists. They need to actually be able to deal with horde armies. Just to test the Crusader land raider I used it vs Guard and slaughtered A mass of conscripts, that plus my devastator squads I was able to deal with the tanks and grunts. I lost by one VP point but it was a great game. People need to stop running small units of big creatures and make real all comer lists. We are still coming out of the MC/Drop pod spam 7th. also hell blasters squads are alot of fun to run.
(Edited because this post was/Is a mess)

I can't help but feel that all this salt is from people who used low model count death stars in 7th and ruined about all the fun in the game. The game feels a lot more like 3rd edition now, which is great. Conscripts are far from OP. They're just actually viable now. My first game against Tau a stealth team used infiltrate to set up right by my deployment. My first turn saw 50 conscripts with FRFSRF within rapid fire range. That was 200 shots. I did 1 unsaved wound. I charged and lost a few guys. His next turn, he simply flew away and went about with his plan. So OP

Colonel Cross wrote:
I can't help but feel that all this salt is from people who used low model count death stars in 7th and ruined about all the fun in the game. The game feels a lot more like 3rd edition now, which is great. Conscripts are far from OP. They're just actually viable now. My first game against Tau a stealth team used infiltrate to set up right by my deployment. My first turn saw 50 conscripts with FRFSRF within rapid fire range. That was 200 shots. I did 1 unsaved wound. I charged and lost a few guys. His next turn, he simply flew away and went about with his plan. So OP

Statistically you should have killed about 2 with the shooting, and done 1 wound in cc, leaving only one with 1w remaining, which is pretty good considering units with -1 to hit like Stealth Suits halve your damage output. Let's not forget the main thing we're complaining about here is the insane points efficiency of units of 50 conscripts with a commissar, not them being just overpowered like some of the unkillable deathstars of 6th and 7th.

 Khaine wrote:

Colonel Cross wrote:
I can't help but feel that all this salt is from people who used low model count death stars in 7th and ruined about all the fun in the game. The game feels a lot more like 3rd edition now, which is great. Conscripts are far from OP. They're just actually viable now. My first game against Tau a stealth team used infiltrate to set up right by my deployment. My first turn saw 50 conscripts with FRFSRF within rapid fire range. That was 200 shots. I did 1 unsaved wound. I charged and lost a few guys. His next turn, he simply flew away and went about with his plan. So OP

Statistically you should have killed about 2 with the shooting, and done 1 wound in cc, leaving only one with 1w remaining, which is pretty good considering units with -1 to hit like Stealth Suits halve your damage output. Let's not forget the main thing we're complaining about here is the insane points efficiency of units of 50 conscripts with a commissar, not them being just overpowered like some of the unkillable deathstars of 6th and 7th.

No, it's a complaint about them being over powered.

Pour that salt.

The problem is that there is no efficient anti horde guns. You can match them with your own. You can alpha strike. You cannot however mathhammer your way to win whereas you very easily do so against elite infantry or vehicles. There are okay and bad choices against conscripts, there are no good choices.

4 conscripts do more damage and are harder to kill in every situation when compared to a space marine. Whether this makes them overpowered is questionable but its fair to ask whether its intentional.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

Punisher23 wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.

would love to see what i think are the old frag rules come back. Lets say any squad using the commissar for leadership of rolls a 6, the commisar is slain and the 6 stands as the leadership roll.

Definitely agree that orders shouldnot work on conscripts. They're far too green to tale generalised orders.

Why the Hell would the Commissar die? So you can feel happy about yourself?

The Guardsmen shoot back.

 NivlacSupreme wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

Punisher23 wrote:

GAdvance wrote:
Why not just reduce the number of wounds commisars have to 2 and stop them being able to affect multiple units.

Suddenly snipers have the effect they're meant to and the cost effectiveness change, we all know that if the commisar is dead the unit will take horrific battleshock casualties.

would love to see what i think are the old frag rules come back. Lets say any squad using the commissar for leadership of rolls a 6, the commisar is slain and the 6 stands as the leadership roll.

Definitely agree that orders shouldnot work on conscripts. They're far too green to tale generalised orders.

Why the Hell would the Commissar die? So you can feel happy about yourself?

The Guardsmen shoot back.

Tbf, the Catachans are infamous for this - sometimes even doing it *before* the Commissar has a chance to murder someone. There is a very high rate of commissariat and officerial accidents in that regiment.

Good thing I play cadians, regardless that's a pretty terrible idea for a rule.

It's not something that typically happens on the field of battle - Commissars are pretty intimidating/inspirational figures by default, not to mention well-trained; someone trying to shoot one while in the middle of a firefight with a group of Tau or whatever is probably just putting himself next in line to get BLAMMed, not to mention depriving yourself of someone to help you shoot the enemy. It's better to pick your moment. Commissars assigned to the Catachans or similar unruly regiments are far more likely to have an unfortunate gun-cleaning accident, get drunk and stumble into heavy traffic, or have an encounter with an ork sniper.

Damn those ork snipers.

It seems to me that keeping Commissars from boosting Conscripts is both unfluffy - that's exactly where you'd want them! - and would absolutely neuter the poor cannon fodder. Morale isn't necessarily how you're 'supposed' to kill them; they're crappier Guardsmen, they die to everything, Morale just means they'll completely evaporate without someone to keep them in line. It's a powerful combination, yeah, but one with an obvious vulnerability or two, and it does best when stationed on an objective in heavy terrain so the Commissar has a good place to hide. It's not a be-all-end-all combination.

I reckon the easiest, fluffliest and most balanced solution is to make flamers more scary against large blobs. Men setting eachother on fire while trying to put themselves out 'n' whatnot. Or flamers cause DX mandatory losses due to fleeing in terror or something...

so far this all seems speculative.

wait for a few months, see what happens when the conscript spam is actually applied, and then adjust points costs accordingly in an errata if required.

Tyel wrote:
The problem is that there is no efficient anti horde guns. You can match them with your own. You can alpha strike. You cannot however mathhammer your way to win whereas you very easily do so against elite infantry or vehicles. There are okay and bad choices against conscripts, there are no good choices.

4 conscripts do more damage and are harder to kill in every situation when compared to a space marine. Whether this makes them overpowered is questionable but its fair to ask whether its intentional.

There are very efficient anti-horde weapons and units out there. Seraphim and Flamer Dominions, Wyverns, Mortars, Hormagaunts, Boyz, etc. And there's even more that may not be as points efficient, but are definitely good at it, like Punishers and Stormlords.

I've been playing games, using conscripts, and against fairly large infantry hordes, and none of us are having problems.

Also, I wonder how much cover people play with when they make the argument of 'just daisy-chain the conscripts to the commanders/commissars who are out of LoS'.

Not every table has to be an urban battle. Sometimes a few craters, some treelines and maybe two small ruins will do as well.

fe40k wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

Sorry but Kanluwen is 100% correct; GW specifically addressed this on their Guard vs Custodes live stream game and confirmed that Militarum Auxilia is not a regimental keyword, and you cannot slap it onto an officer to make him a member of the Militarum Auxilia. For the sake of what you are trying to do the keyword <Militarum Auxilia> might as well be <Space Wolves>.

edit: It may have been in their IG faction discussion video, but either way they specifically addressed this issue.

I'll try to find these videos - it's possible that I'm wrong, in which case I'll rescind my statements. Thank you for providing a source.

However, you can see based on current wording, how I could think that it's possible to take Militarum Auxilia as a regiment choice.

They really should put this in the FAQ if they've already made a decision on it.

Yes I agree that the wording is iffy, as I assumed that you could do what you suggested with officers before I saw the video.

So when I look at the forum I see threads in tactica trying to take as many lascannons as possible and discussions vaunting Dreadnoughts, Razorbacks and other units that can take multiple heavy weapons.

Then I see threads complaining about horde armies being OP.

I feel like there might be a correlation.

"Correlation does not imply causation".

Horde's aren't as strong as people think they are; take Missile Launchers, Twin AC Razorbacks, Gatling/Missile Taurox Prime, and other versatile weapons.

People will adapt to bubblewrapping and dealing with horde units and mechanics as time goes on.

I think people are really underestimating armor this edition around; a full mech list is unrealistic for a balanced army list to deal with - hordes still have the problem of actual table space and getting in range; armor can focus itself where needed, and is damn near impossible for most armies to get rid of in reasonable amounts.

Regardless of the status of Hordes and Armored lists; Conscripts are a problem at 3ppm with everything they provide - especially the squad size, orders are 5x more effective on them; since orders are written for 10 man IG squads.

Maybe GW is trying their old version of balance in a new way. Instead of "too many things to account for and counter" it's "each single thing is too hard for a TAC list to tackle, so everyone must bring a tailored list".

Which is stupid.

fe40k wrote:
"Correlation does not imply causation".

Horde's aren't as strong as people think they are; take Missile Launchers, Twin AC Razorbacks, Gatling/Missile Taurox Prime, and other versatile weapons.

People will adapt to bubblewrapping and dealing with horde units and mechanics as time goes on.

I think people are really underestimating armor this edition around; a full mech list is unrealistic for a balanced army list to deal with - hordes still have the problem of actual table space and getting in range; armor can focus itself where needed, and is damn near impossible for most armies to get rid of in reasonable amounts.

Regardless of the status of Hordes and Armored lists; Conscripts are a problem at 3ppm with everything they provide - especially the squad size, orders are 5x more effective on them; since orders are written for 10 man IG squads.

On vehicles, yes. I ran an IG list on opening day consisting entirely of tanks, and a token tax of troops. People didn't like me for it.

Again, I think they're quite okay as is. We need them in a long line so we can actually have a turn when playing the Tyranids, and Orks, and Chaos, etc, and not have our tanks and artillery turn into a big melee ball.

They're not hard to kill, but they are 1 turn of stalling so that we can actually have a shooting phase. Almost every faction has a means to massacre them, except Space Marines, and I think that's the "problem". And I don't really thing that's a problem, because small, elite forces shouldn't be able to confront and beat massed troops in open battle, but should instead on careful strikes to cripple the support and the leadership and complete the objectives, which, it's worth mention, the Space Marines are certainly capable of.

Space Marines also have generalist units, that are capable of performing many tasks, but excellent at none, and pay more for versatility, while we have specialist units that are good at their one job but poor at all other ones, and are accordingly cheap.

Azoqu wrote:As a chaos player, I really want to know what my snipers are. Really do tell. The closest I can get is the one sorcerer power, but since you can only cast it once per turn it is like a vindicari but I can't spam more if I want to.

Do I get a cookie if I answer your question by telling you about MoK Warp Talons with an Icon being able to charge and kill most anything the turn after they come in? Because I feel that deserves a cookie.

Khaine wrote:Statistically you should have killed about 2 with the shooting, and done 1 wound in cc, leaving only one with 1w remaining, which is pretty good considering units with -1 to hit like Stealth Suits halve your damage output. Let's not forget the main thing we're complaining about here is the insane points efficiency of units of 50 conscripts with a commissar, not them being just overpowered like some of the unkillable deathstars of 6th and 7th.

The downside with Conscripts is that while they are very efficient for their points their average damage output is, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, quite low. Arguably, if they weren't so efficient for their points they would be garbage.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

The downside with Conscripts is that while they are very efficient for their points their average damage output is, as has been repeatedly demonstrated, quite low. Arguably, if they weren't so efficient for their points they would be garbage.

Oh you done diddly dun it now!


I did some mathammering with my Eldar, and came to the conclusion that unless I actually bother reading up on DE units, I cannot kill conscripts fast enough. I also found that I'm almost immune to conscripts anyway, so...

While I'm on the subject, the general reaction to 8E conscripts basically reads like this 4chan thread (warning, huge):

Let's see what happens... I call conscripts being key element to astra militarum armies dominating games, simply by being in the way, while the rest of the army blows up the enemy.

Waaargh wrote:
Let's see what happens... I call conscripts being key element to astra militarum armies dominating games, simply by being in the way, while the rest of the army blows up the enemy.

This is entirely true. Because we have a line of men to absorb first turn charges, the rest of our army gets a turn of shooting to deliver a crippling blow to the enemy.

But Sisters Seraphim supported by Celestine can hypothetically reach 28"-43". Hormagaunts or Genestealers can hypothetically reach 23-41" when supported by the Swarmlord. Orks under Da Jump have a 48% chance of getting the 30 boyz in, and a 73% chance of getting either the boys or the wierdboy in. Of course, anything that can deep strike has a natural 28% chance of making it in naturally and a 52% chance with a command-point re-roll of one of the dice.

If we didn't have our long line of space-consuming, deep-strike blocking, charge-blocking cheap bodies, we wouldn't be able to actually play the game.

And, of course, Hormgaunts and Seraphim can still conceivably get to the tanks, since Seraphim can fly over the conscript perimeter and Hormagaunts can consolidate 6", effectively placing everything within 8" of the Conscripts in danger.


And, of course, long-range shooting armies, like ourselves and the Tau, can shoot past the conscripts to take out their supporting elements without actually having to deal with the conscript line itself.


Conscripts are good, there's no question of it, and they will be the key to us winning. Without them, we have no effective defense against assault-based armies. But you can overcome them, and I don't think they're undercosted. If they cost anymore, they'd be too expensive for a turn or two of delaying action. Remember, they'll almost never make back their cost in points through their own shooting and melee power, they make back their cost through the extra round of shooting they buy the tanks and guns behind them.

As I've been saying, conscripts are definitely strong and are an important part of a well-rounded Guard army.

However, in all the battle reports I've seen nobody has had *too* much trouble dealing with them. They've done their job and they were a rock-solid unit, but they didn't single-handedly roll up the table.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Waaargh wrote:
Let's see what happens... I call conscripts being key element to astra militarum armies dominating games, simply by being in the way, while the rest of the army blows up the enemy.

This is entirely true. Because we have a line of men to absorb first turn charges, the rest of our army gets a turn of shooting to deliver a crippling blow to the enemy.

But Sisters Seraphim supported by Celestine can hypothetically reach 28"-43". Hormagaunts or Genestealers can hypothetically reach 23-41" when supported by the Swarmlord. Orks under Da Jump have a 48% chance of getting the 30 boyz in, and a 73% chance of getting either the boys or the wierdboy in. Of course, anything that can deep strike has a natural 28% chance of making it in naturally and a 52% chance with a command-point re-roll of one of the dice.

If we didn't have our long line of space-consuming, deep-strike blocking, charge-blocking cheap bodies, we wouldn't be able to actually play the game.

And, of course, Hormgaunts and Seraphim can still conceivably get to the tanks, since Seraphim can fly over the conscript perimeter and Hormagaunts can consolidate 6", effectively placing everything within 8" of the Conscripts in danger.


And, of course, long-range shooting armies, like ourselves and the Tau, can shoot past the conscripts to take out their supporting elements without actually having to deal with the conscript line itself.


Conscripts are good, there's no question of it, and they will be the key to us winning. Without them, we have no effective defense against assault-based armies. But you can overcome them, and I don't think they're undercosted. If they cost anymore, they'd be too expensive for a turn or two of delaying action. Remember, they'll almost never make back their cost in points through their own shooting and melee power, they make back their cost through the extra round of shooting they buy the tanks and guns behind them.

Pretty sure every army has to contend with this stuff without have the luxury of spending 200 points for a 50 man screening line that can't efficiently be killed that is more efficient at killing tanks than dedicated tank weapons....This unit flat out needs to be unable to receive orders and not be effected by the commissar rule. They are fodder. If you want a stalwart unit that is hard to break you should have to upgrade to guardsmen (who have training) and cost a reasonable 5 points (more comparable to what other armies pay for a cheap body). Unbreakable 30 man guard units will still be hugely effective.

Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

Lol how is this thread still going?

Colonel Cross wrote:
Lol how is this thread still going?

Because conscripts are still 3 points.

And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

PFFF - these index are hardly the final product. This is just a game we can play for the next month to a year until our real codex come out. This is the real play testing phase.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

PFFF - these index are hardly the final product. This is just a game we can play for the next month to a year until our real codex come out. This is the real play testing phase.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honesty CANT find a way around a squad or two of conscripts... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 30 man squad only. With 2 commissar for support plus rest of the army. A simple fodder unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but hardcore players.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

PFFF - these index are hardly the final product. This is just a game we can play for the next month to a year until our real codex come out. This is the real play testing phase.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honesty CANT find a way around a squad or two of conscripts... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 30 man squad only. With 2 commissar for support plus rest of the army. A simple fodder unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but hardcore players.

Conscripts aren't a new toy - they were popular in 7th as a cheap tarpit. They have just become a lot better with the new wounding mecahnics and save mechanics and character mechanics. BTW all I play with are hardcore players.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honesty CANT find a way around a squad or two of conscripts... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 30 man squad only. With 2 commissar for support plus rest of the army. A simple fodder unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but hardcore players.

You have managed to successfully point out that overpowered units aren't that bad with a gentleman's agreement that limits their usage. Congratulations, everyone is perfectly aware of this. It should still be fixed, and people complaining do indeed help insure that things are fixed as soon as possible.

I could see maybe no orders, but the commissar rule is just that, a special rule with the commissar. That is something I do not think should be taken away. It assists in the survivability. Without it the unit would never be taken. I can meet halfway in the fact that I'd honestly STILL take this unity even if I couldn't give it orders. I would not take this unit if I had the fear of the entire unit running away after one turn, essentially making it useless in its purpose as a screen

You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

With that logic, many units are OP, as many similar point costed and role playing units have already been pointed out in other threads to be better than the rest. Tau for instance have many models now that while equally point costed, still fall short to their counter parts. So, those are OP too, correct?

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

With that logic, many units are OP, as many similar point costed and role playing units have already been pointed out in other threads to be better than the rest. Tau for instance have many models now that while equally point costed, still fall short to their counter parts. So, those are OP too, correct?

Any unit that is so markedly, obviously OP is OP, yes.

 JimOnMars wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

With that logic, many units are OP, as many similar point costed and role playing units have already been pointed out in other threads to be better than the rest. Tau for instance have many models now that while equally point costed, still fall short to their counter parts. So, those are OP too, correct?

Any unit that is so markedly, obviously OP is OP, yes.

What army do you play by chance? Just curious. I'm sure I could point out a few units that need points adjustments. The point is, over powered is what eldar, tau, etc use to be. You're telling me conscripts are on That level? I'll laugh

Conscripts are good but ork storm boyz and other jump infantry will tear them into pieces first turn. Not a threat to the boyz.

40k should double everything in points (The max of the games too, so normal game 4k points instead of 2k) to have more desing space in the low spectrum. That way a Conscript could be 6 points, a Gretchin 4 points, a Guardsmen 8 points, a Hormagaunt 9 points, a Ork Boy 10 points, etc...

 JimOnMars wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

Perhaps those lower defensive stats are the price that grots pay for being BS3+ in a full-strength squad. (they're 4+ baseline, and go to 3+ if their squad has 20 or more models) I also note that their pistols are S3, not S2, and being pistols they can be used in melee.

Or would you like to contend that grots would need to be WS5+ BS3+ S3 T3 1W Sv 5+ to be "even" with WS5+ BS5+ S3 T3 1W Sv5+ conscripts, even though that would put them pretty close to a Veteran's stat line?

Now, maybe BS3+ by itself is not enough to completely bring grots up to par, but it probably is enough to make it so overall the difference between them is less than 1 point. If GW wants to be able to fine-tune the low end that much, they'd have to increase the baseline for points across the board so that each point represents less value.

 Xenomancers wrote:
BTW all I play with are hardcore players.

We were unaware you play weekly to practice for the ETC/ATC.

Do you have battle reports or pictures of these matchups so we can see where you're having this issue? I know most warmachine players record their Win/Loss/Casters and lists.

The 150-200 Foot Guard lists haven't been that OP from two two games I've had so far in 8th. I've yet to see 300+ models on a table in 8th.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
You are still severely over-reacting to the conscripts' ability to generate amusing mathhammer. It's a lot of panic over nothing.

Conscripts are just good, not overpowered. There's nothing wrong with them being good.

Conscripts and gretchen are both 3 points. conscripts are t3 (grots t2) s3 (s2) rapid fire 24 (pistol 12) 5+ !!! (7+)

If they were not overpowered, they would have the same stat line as the other 3 point unit, or have minuses for every plus.

They are OP.

With that logic, many units are OP, as many similar point costed and role playing units have already been pointed out in other threads to be better than the rest. Tau for instance have many models now that while equally point costed, still fall short to their counter parts. So, those are OP too, correct?

Tau have special rules and better weapons - support fire alone justifies their points costs.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

What army do you play by chance? Just curious. I'm sure I could point out a few units that need points adjustments. The point is, over powered is what eldar, tau, etc use to be. You're telling me conscripts are on That level? I'll laugh

I play orks. Currently tankbustas are a little OP at 17 points.

The problem with conscripts is that they shoot and defend like a 5 point model but are 40% off. Tankbustas should be about 20 and so are 15% off. Not 40%.

a 40% discount puts them in the wraithknight/scatbike/riptide (7e) category. It seems odd because most people don't have 100 of the things, but 100 sv5+ wounds that can rapid fire 4 shots each puts them up there.

Wait, if you think conscripts should cost 5 points, how much would a guardsman cost? Or a Veteran for that matter, since those are 6 points? O_o

 JimOnMars wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

What army do you play by chance? Just curious. I'm sure I could point out a few units that need points adjustments. The point is, over powered is what eldar, tau, etc use to be. You're telling me conscripts are on That level? I'll laugh

I play orks. Currently tankbustas are a little OP at 17 points.

The problem with conscripts is that they shoot and defend like a 5 point model but are 40% off. Tankbustas should be about 20 and so are 15% off. Not 40%.

a 40% discount puts them in the wraithknight/scatbike/riptide (7e) category. It seems odd because most people don't have 100 of the things, but 100 sv5+ wounds that can rapid fire 4 shots each puts them up there.

If they could not receive orders, would you think they are more fairly costed, as that 4 shots goes away? Mind you I am standing firm they SHOULD benefit from the commissars ability.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?

Conscripts are hasty planetary levies, and would be drawn the way the ordinary tithe is met: from the Planetary Defense Force. They're quite a bit better than Hive Militia, and have equipment and some training, but aren't particularly well disciplined or experienced.

I'm not actually sure why they, who have at least had some, if inadequate, training, have lower WS and BS than Chaos Cultists, who are deluded civilians.

Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?

Conscripts are hasty planetary levies, and would be drawn the way the ordinary tithe is met: from the Planetary Defense Force. They're quite a bit better than Hive Militia, and have equipment and some training, but aren't particularly well disciplined or experienced.

I'm not actually sure why they, who have at least had some, if inadequate, training, have lower WS and BS than Chaos Cultists, who are deluded civilians.

They are well armed militia essentially.

Taking both is essentially making the unit completely useless and not worth taking at all, as any simple amount of easily done damage would ruin the entire unit in one turn, even with 50 men.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.



It's amusing to do the mathhammer for the entire 50-man blob in rapid-fire range, but if you've ever actually tried to play with Conscripts and do that, you'll find it nearly impossible. At best, maybe a dozen can get there, and that's assuming they didn't get charged or shot to pieces on turn 1.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Taking both is essentially making the unit completely useless and not worth taking at all, as any simple amount of easily done damage would ruin the entire unit in one turn, even with 50 men.

Kind of like everyone else fodder troops?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Taking both is essentially making the unit completely useless and not worth taking at all, as any simple amount of easily done damage would ruin the entire unit in one turn, even with 50 men.

Kind of like everyone else fodder troops?

What do you mean "everyone else's fodder troops?"

Tryanids and Orks are immune to morale. That sums up everyone that matters' fodder troops.


Other factions that have them, like Tau and Chaos, deserve to have crappier fodder troops and our armies because they're not horde armies, and shouldn't be fielding big blobs of expendable guys as efficiently as armies that are supposed to work that way.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Taking both is essentially making the unit completely useless and not worth taking at all, as any simple amount of easily done damage would ruin the entire unit in one turn, even with 50 men.

Kind of like everyone else fodder troops?

Are you really scared of 4 dead marines? Like previously stated also, take both away and they still won't break. We can get so many cp that we just use 2 to
Not break

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

IMO, it's neither. Conscripts are a tar-pit, and using orders on them to make them fire better is going to largely be a waste except in specific circumstances. Their biggest advantage is that they're some of the cheapest wounds in the game. They're pretty terrible at everything else they do, though.

Because of how characters work in this edition, snipers should prove to be exceptionally common. This means the commissar is only a problem until you take him out.

If you don't pack snipers, that's your choice to make.

If your opponent kills your snipers before they can do their jobs, GG. You got out-played.

Also, in order to take full advantage of conscripts, you need to have an officer who can issue orders within 6" of them since they cannot take a vox-caster (if I'm remembering correctly. I don't have my books in front of me). If he's that far forward, and you can kill the commissar, you can kill him too.

That's one more free victory point.

Finally, after you claim those two victory points conscripts only have LD 4, so just shoot them. They can only tarpit things they can assault, and if you have the resources necessary to kill two low-wound, low armor save characters (which is to say it's not difficult), just hit the conscript squad as hard as you can. Blow away a big chunk of them in one turn, and the morale phase will do the rest of your job for you.

Then, the only armies that can't snipe them into irrelevance blob better than IG do and will barely be slowed down by that conscript squad regardless.

New edition: new tools.
New tools: new problems.
New problems: new solutions.

May the meta never stop changing.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

I mean, we have proven if. You refuse to accept it cause it isn't your toy that got better.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

I mean, we have proven if. You refuse to accept it cause it isn't your toy that got better.

This is simple math. Do you really think Conscripts should be able to hold their own in melle vs an equal points value of hormagaunts? because the math says they actaully beat the hormagaunts.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

I mean, we have proven if. You refuse to accept it cause it isn't your toy that got better.

This is simple math. Do you really think Conscripts should be able to hold their own in melle vs an equal points value of hormagaunts? because the math says they actaully beat the hormagaunts.

Good, the army I play is efficiant.. I'm sorry not every army is. Your point? Maybe hormagaunts should just be better.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

Hahahaha.... They can't get there. And if they are in rapid fire range, you got outplayed my friend and messed up badly. It's pretty simple that way, because if I managed to get 50 guys, 50 guys, within 12" of you without being shot or charged. Seriously.



Space Marines can go and cry in a corner. You shouldn't be able to beat our big horde in a straight up tit-for-tat gunfight or swordfight. Use precision and strategic targeting to cripple key elements of our force, like artillery and tanks and heavy weapons batteries, rather than trying to churn through our chaff.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Taking both is essentially making the unit completely useless and not worth taking at all, as any simple amount of easily done damage would ruin the entire unit in one turn, even with 50 men.

Kind of like everyone else fodder troops?

Are you really scared of 4 dead marines? Like previously stated also, take both away and they still won't break. We can get so many cp that we just use 2 to
Not break

Lets assume the marines shoot back - 10 man marine squad - 10 shots out of rapid fire 6-7 hits -4-5 wounds - 3-4 failed saves....are you freaking kidding me? 9 to 12 points killed compared to 52 points? This is balance to you?

10 marines shooting vs 50 guys... 5x the amount of people, 2x the amount of shots? Yes, that's balance..

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

I mean, we have proven if. You refuse to accept it cause it isn't your toy that got better.

This is simple math. Do you really think Conscripts should be able to hold their own in melle vs an equal points value of hormagaunts? because the math says they actaully beat the hormagaunts.

Good, the army I play is efficiant.. I'm sorry not every army is. Your point? Maybe hormagaunts should just be better.

There are a few glaring examples of OP I've seen so far - most everything else seems reasonable. It's much easier to fix the outliers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
10 marines shooting vs 50 guys... 5x the amount of people, 2x the amount of shots? Yes, that's balance..

Points? and its 5x the amount of shots - their guns have the exact same rate of fire.

Answer is still yes

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

PFFF - these index are hardly the final product. This is just a game we can play for the next month to a year until our real codex come out. This is the real play testing phase.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honesty CANT find a way around a squad or two of conscripts... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 30 man squad only. With 2 commissar for support plus rest of the army. A simple fodder unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but hardcore players.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honestly CAN'T find a way around a squad or two of Scatterbikes... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 6 man squad only. With 2 farseers for support plus the rest of the army. A simple supporting fire unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but the hardcore players.

Sure enough, about a few months after the 7th edition Eldar codex dropped, it was dominating.

Your stupid "it won't be abused" argument is bad and you should feel bad. I didn't think anyone in my area would actually by half a hundred Ferisian Wolves, and sure enough the lists started making rounds.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

I mean, we have proven if. You refuse to accept it cause it isn't your toy that got better.

This is simple math. Do you really think Conscripts should be able to hold their own in melle vs an equal points value of hormagaunts? because the math says they actaully beat the hormagaunts.

Except for the part where they don't.

Hormagaunts are 5 points per model, but they get 2 attacks instead of 1. So at equal points, the hormagaunts will get slightly more attacks. They're WS4+, so 50% more of those attacks will hit. They also re-roll 1s to hit, further improving their accuracy, and they also re-roll to-wound rolls of 1, helping them convert more of those hits into wounds.

All of those re-rolls on top of the higher base hit rate means that much more of the hormagaunts' attacks will actually get through, so in a melee the hormagaunts will win.

Now, if you want to throw in an officer, a Commissar, and a Priest, you've got to add about 86 points to that comparison.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

PFFF - these index are hardly the final product. This is just a game we can play for the next month to a year until our real codex come out. This is the real play testing phase.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honesty CANT find a way around a squad or two of conscripts... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 30 man squad only. With 2 commissar for support plus rest of the army. A simple fodder unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but hardcore players.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honestly CAN'T find a way around a squad or two of Scatterbikes... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 6 man squad only. With 2 farseers for support plus the rest of the army. A simple supporting fire unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but the hardcore players.

Sure enough, about a few months after the 7th edition Eldar codex dropped, it was dominating.

Your stupid "it won't be abused" argument is bad and you should feel bad. I didn't think anyone in my area would actually by half a hundred Ferisian Wolves, and sure enough the lists started making rounds.

I actually said it would be abused in the competitive scene.

 ross-128 wrote:
Wait, if you think conscripts should cost 5 points, how much would a guardsman cost? Or a Veteran for that matter, since those are 6 points? O_o

I misspoke.

Conscripts should be 4.5. Guradsmen 5.5, vets 6.5 (because marine level ballistic skill).

Using a 6 point shoota boy as baseline for this. (s6 t6 bs 5+ sv 6+) the 5+ save on these is the difference. There is no way a 5+ save on a 1 wound model should be 3 (when comparable 1 wound models have 7+ save.) conscripts have armor that is halfway between a grot and a marine...which is why they should cost SOMETHING more than the grot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sure enough, about a few months after the 7th edition Eldar codex dropped, it was dominating.

Your stupid "it won't be abused" argument is bad and you should feel bad. I didn't think anyone in my area would actually by half a hundred Ferisian Wolves, and sure enough the lists started making rounds.

Scatterbikes aren't that bad.

I dealt with it.

Scatterbikes are also different from conscripts, in that they're fast and have firepower, and are effectively resilient through their speed.

Conscripts are slow and completely lack firepower even with their massive numbers, and really only have an obnoxious level of resilience for people who want to see how badass their Space Marines are at killing a dozen men with a single bullet.



With regards to competitive abuse, I play fairly competitively, but not in tournaments [at least, not frequently]. At the very least, I play to win. I bring 50 of them. Any more and their lack of firepower and general unwieldiness would become a detriment to my force. Maybe 100, but that's the upper limit on effectiveness. The big guns carry the day, really,and the conscripts give me the turn or two of breathing room I really need for them to do so.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sure enough, about a few months after the 7th edition Eldar codex dropped, it was dominating.

Your stupid "it won't be abused" argument is bad and you should feel bad. I didn't think anyone in my area would actually by half a hundred Ferisian Wolves, and sure enough the lists started making rounds.

Scatterbikes aren't that bad.

And just like that you lose literally any credibility you had. Literally the one unit ANYBODY agreed was entirely underpriced, you decided wasn't that bad because you dealt with them. Clearly you're a better player than anyone ever, including those tournament winners that agree that Scatterbikes were underpriced considerably.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sure enough, about a few months after the 7th edition Eldar codex dropped, it was dominating.

Your stupid "it won't be abused" argument is bad and you should feel bad. I didn't think anyone in my area would actually by half a hundred Ferisian Wolves, and sure enough the lists started making rounds.

Scatterbikes aren't that bad.

And just like that you lose literally any credibility you had. Literally the one unit ANYBODY agreed was entirely underpriced, you decided wasn't that bad because you dealt with them. Clearly you're a better player than anyone ever, including those tournament winners that agree that Scatterbikes were underpriced considerably.

I have actually been chronically at a loss for why Scatterbikes were so OP.

They can chop my little guys up into pieces, but they didn't really make a dent in my heavy equipment. Also, I didn't see a whole lot of them.

I was able to, in a Tournament, demolish them using Sisters of Battle by throwing Celestine and some Dominions at them, we didn't win the battle, but we did kill the Wraithknight and all the Scatterbikes. Outside of tournaments, Leman Russ Tanks and my heavy artillery works wonders. Wraithknights were a bigger problem.


What I really hated was the Optimized Stealth Cadre. It was a formation that was specifically designed to destroy my army, no matter what list I made. Sure, it may not have been as efficient on other armies, but it pissed me off because it hard countered mine the way I like to play, and we use tailored lists in my casual group.

I imagine that's what the conscript problem is too, but there are more Space Marine players than Imperial Guard players. Conscripts aren't a significant obstacle to Tyranids, Orks, etc., even Sisters, just to Space Marines.

So, Inquisitor Lord Katherine, you base your perception of what is OP and what is not based in how that affect you personally, and only in that metric?

Hmmm....