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Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

I mean, we have proven if. You refuse to accept it cause it isn't your toy that got better.

This is simple math. Do you really think Conscripts should be able to hold their own in melle vs an equal points value of hormagaunts? because the math says they actaully beat the hormagaunts.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

I mean, we have proven if. You refuse to accept it cause it isn't your toy that got better.

This is simple math. Do you really think Conscripts should be able to hold their own in melle vs an equal points value of hormagaunts? because the math says they actaully beat the hormagaunts.

Good, the army I play is efficiant.. I'm sorry not every army is. Your point? Maybe hormagaunts should just be better.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

Hahahaha.... They can't get there. And if they are in rapid fire range, you got outplayed my friend and messed up badly. It's pretty simple that way, because if I managed to get 50 guys, 50 guys, within 12" of you without being shot or charged. Seriously.



Space Marines can go and cry in a corner. You shouldn't be able to beat our big horde in a straight up tit-for-tat gunfight or swordfight. Use precision and strategic targeting to cripple key elements of our force, like artillery and tanks and heavy weapons batteries, rather than trying to churn through our chaff.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Taking both is essentially making the unit completely useless and not worth taking at all, as any simple amount of easily done damage would ruin the entire unit in one turn, even with 50 men.

Kind of like everyone else fodder troops?

Are you really scared of 4 dead marines? Like previously stated also, take both away and they still won't break. We can get so many cp that we just use 2 to
Not break

Lets assume the marines shoot back - 10 man marine squad - 10 shots out of rapid fire 6-7 hits -4-5 wounds - 3-4 failed saves....are you freaking kidding me? 9 to 12 points killed compared to 52 points? This is balance to you?

10 marines shooting vs 50 guys... 5x the amount of people, 2x the amount of shots? Yes, that's balance..

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

I mean, we have proven if. You refuse to accept it cause it isn't your toy that got better.

This is simple math. Do you really think Conscripts should be able to hold their own in melle vs an equal points value of hormagaunts? because the math says they actaully beat the hormagaunts.

Good, the army I play is efficiant.. I'm sorry not every army is. Your point? Maybe hormagaunts should just be better.

There are a few glaring examples of OP I've seen so far - most everything else seems reasonable. It's much easier to fix the outliers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
10 marines shooting vs 50 guys... 5x the amount of people, 2x the amount of shots? Yes, that's balance..

Points? and its 5x the amount of shots - their guns have the exact same rate of fire.

Answer is still yes

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

PFFF - these index are hardly the final product. This is just a game we can play for the next month to a year until our real codex come out. This is the real play testing phase.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honesty CANT find a way around a squad or two of conscripts... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 30 man squad only. With 2 commissar for support plus rest of the army. A simple fodder unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but hardcore players.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honestly CAN'T find a way around a squad or two of Scatterbikes... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 6 man squad only. With 2 farseers for support plus the rest of the army. A simple supporting fire unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but the hardcore players.

Sure enough, about a few months after the 7th edition Eldar codex dropped, it was dominating.

Your stupid "it won't be abused" argument is bad and you should feel bad. I didn't think anyone in my area would actually by half a hundred Ferisian Wolves, and sure enough the lists started making rounds.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

I mean, we have proven if. You refuse to accept it cause it isn't your toy that got better.

This is simple math. Do you really think Conscripts should be able to hold their own in melle vs an equal points value of hormagaunts? because the math says they actaully beat the hormagaunts.

Except for the part where they don't.

Hormagaunts are 5 points per model, but they get 2 attacks instead of 1. So at equal points, the hormagaunts will get slightly more attacks. They're WS4+, so 50% more of those attacks will hit. They also re-roll 1s to hit, further improving their accuracy, and they also re-roll to-wound rolls of 1, helping them convert more of those hits into wounds.

All of those re-rolls on top of the higher base hit rate means that much more of the hormagaunts' attacks will actually get through, so in a melee the hormagaunts will win.

Now, if you want to throw in an officer, a Commissar, and a Priest, you've got to add about 86 points to that comparison.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Someone's upset a bit to much. Not receive orders? Lore wise tell me how that makes any bit of sense? Not break? The whole point of a commissar is to instill so much fear that the individuals listen to his orders even if it means certain death. It plays as it should.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS? CONSCRIPTS ARE MILITIA. Are you seriously trying to justify militia being unbreakable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
And that isn't going to change anytime soon, so hopefully you all get use to it.

PFFF - these index are hardly the final product. This is just a game we can play for the next month to a year until our real codex come out. This is the real play testing phase.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honesty CANT find a way around a squad or two of conscripts... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 30 man squad only. With 2 commissar for support plus rest of the army. A simple fodder unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but hardcore players.

Wow, someone is really... really upset that some other army has a nice new toy. If you honestly CAN'T find a way around a squad or two of Scatterbikes... maybe this isn't the game for you? You don't sound like you're to much into having fun. For example, my list uses a simple 6 man squad only. With 2 farseers for support plus the rest of the army. A simple supporting fire unit. Not abused. Not even maximized. Just seems like so much hype for something that isn't even gonna be abused by anyone but the hardcore players.

Sure enough, about a few months after the 7th edition Eldar codex dropped, it was dominating.

Your stupid "it won't be abused" argument is bad and you should feel bad. I didn't think anyone in my area would actually by half a hundred Ferisian Wolves, and sure enough the lists started making rounds.

I actually said it would be abused in the competitive scene.

 ross-128 wrote:
Wait, if you think conscripts should cost 5 points, how much would a guardsman cost? Or a Veteran for that matter, since those are 6 points? O_o

I misspoke.

Conscripts should be 4.5. Guradsmen 5.5, vets 6.5 (because marine level ballistic skill).

Using a 6 point shoota boy as baseline for this. (s6 t6 bs 5+ sv 6+) the 5+ save on these is the difference. There is no way a 5+ save on a 1 wound model should be 3 (when comparable 1 wound models have 7+ save.) conscripts have armor that is halfway between a grot and a marine...which is why they should cost SOMETHING more than the grot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sure enough, about a few months after the 7th edition Eldar codex dropped, it was dominating.

Your stupid "it won't be abused" argument is bad and you should feel bad. I didn't think anyone in my area would actually by half a hundred Ferisian Wolves, and sure enough the lists started making rounds.

Scatterbikes aren't that bad.

I dealt with it.

Scatterbikes are also different from conscripts, in that they're fast and have firepower, and are effectively resilient through their speed.

Conscripts are slow and completely lack firepower even with their massive numbers, and really only have an obnoxious level of resilience for people who want to see how badass their Space Marines are at killing a dozen men with a single bullet.



With regards to competitive abuse, I play fairly competitively, but not in tournaments [at least, not frequently]. At the very least, I play to win. I bring 50 of them. Any more and their lack of firepower and general unwieldiness would become a detriment to my force. Maybe 100, but that's the upper limit on effectiveness. The big guns carry the day, really,and the conscripts give me the turn or two of breathing room I really need for them to do so.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sure enough, about a few months after the 7th edition Eldar codex dropped, it was dominating.

Your stupid "it won't be abused" argument is bad and you should feel bad. I didn't think anyone in my area would actually by half a hundred Ferisian Wolves, and sure enough the lists started making rounds.

Scatterbikes aren't that bad.

And just like that you lose literally any credibility you had. Literally the one unit ANYBODY agreed was entirely underpriced, you decided wasn't that bad because you dealt with them. Clearly you're a better player than anyone ever, including those tournament winners that agree that Scatterbikes were underpriced considerably.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Sure enough, about a few months after the 7th edition Eldar codex dropped, it was dominating.

Your stupid "it won't be abused" argument is bad and you should feel bad. I didn't think anyone in my area would actually by half a hundred Ferisian Wolves, and sure enough the lists started making rounds.

Scatterbikes aren't that bad.

And just like that you lose literally any credibility you had. Literally the one unit ANYBODY agreed was entirely underpriced, you decided wasn't that bad because you dealt with them. Clearly you're a better player than anyone ever, including those tournament winners that agree that Scatterbikes were underpriced considerably.

I have actually been chronically at a loss for why Scatterbikes were so OP.

They can chop my little guys up into pieces, but they didn't really make a dent in my heavy equipment. Also, I didn't see a whole lot of them.

I was able to, in a Tournament, demolish them using Sisters of Battle by throwing Celestine and some Dominions at them, we didn't win the battle, but we did kill the Wraithknight and all the Scatterbikes. Outside of tournaments, Leman Russ Tanks and my heavy artillery works wonders. Wraithknights were a bigger problem.


What I really hated was the Optimized Stealth Cadre. It was a formation that was specifically designed to destroy my army, no matter what list I made. Sure, it may not have been as efficient on other armies, but it pissed me off because it hard countered mine the way I like to play, and we use tailored lists in my casual group.

I imagine that's what the conscript problem is too, but there are more Space Marine players than Imperial Guard players. Conscripts aren't a significant obstacle to Tyranids, Orks, etc., even Sisters, just to Space Marines.

So, Inquisitor Lord Katherine, you base your perception of what is OP and what is not based in how that affect you personally, and only in that metric?

Hmmm....

Katherine was talking about scatter bikes in 8th and they have had a relative price increase.

Also if 50 guys are all in 12" rapid fire range, you deserved to lose that unit of marines.

Be carefull of calculating who wins in a multi round fight because the very basic math we use to calculate average wounds doesn't hold up when you do that, it supposes all rolls to be independant of each other and they are not in this case (degredation due to casualties).

Scatterbikes were only OP if you were trying to play 5th edition against a 7th edition army in my opinion. Invisible death stars only feared them for their movement and ObSec. Renegades & Heretics (one of the two top scoring groups in late 7th) just instantly obliterated them with massed Earthshakers.

 Galas wrote:
So, Inquisitor Lord Katherine, you base your perception of what is OP and what is not based in how that affect you personally, and only in that metric?

Hmmm....

considering she used actual graphs to back up her statements in the past, that puts her a leg up above all of us.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Hard to say which is more broken - 3 point modles doubling their offensive output in squads of 50- or 3 point modles being unable to be removed because of 5+ saves and being immune to morale.

Orders. Doubling 50*1/3*1/3*1/3=2 is 4 marines killed, which isn't exactly scary, but...

Orks and Tyranids are also immune to Morale, and have much more dangerous blobs. Boyz can have 6 attacks on the charge [2 base, 1 from the choppa, 1 from having over 20 models, 1 from Warpath, 1 from Ghazskull, according to my Ork-playing friend], Hormagaunts can turn-1 charge with a massive number of hits as well. And that's before we get into expensive blobs, like Necron Warriors, who are basically unkillable in a tit-for-tat exchange of fire, even at close range, and have a leadership so high that battleshock isn't much of a concern for them.

And, fundamentally, even if the commissar effect was removed, the Conscripts are still morale proof, since we can spend 2 CP to not run away.

In rapid fire range they kill 8 marines a turn - they nearly wipe a unit of termagants or hormagaunts. They even beat hormagants in melle per points not even factoring overwatch. you want to continue talking about how conscripits are not OP?

No they don't.

First, it's 7.4 marines a turn, and you got that by assuming 200 shots for the guard via FRFSRF, and not putting the marines into cover. It's literally a best case scenario against a brain-dead marine player.

The moment the marines are in cover, the guard lose half those kills.

Also, you're not taking unit-spread into account. There's no way you're getting a blob of fifty models all into rapid fire range. Not even with a 12" range. It's not physically possible unless your opponent was 4" away, snake-eyes'd his charge, and didn't have any command points left (or spent one and re-rolled another 1).

Finally, @ Inquisitor Lord Katherine, please spend 2 command points to keep your conscripts from breaking. I want you to spend those because you're essentially spending 2/3rds of 1k points worth of command points to keep a conscript squad from breaking. Making you spend those points on that is literally the best thing I can make you spend them on because you've got 2 less points for stratagems, heavy weapon re-rolls, and auto-passing morale saves on much more expensive units.

Earth127 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
So, Inquisitor Lord Katherine, you base your perception of what is OP and what is not based in how that affect you personally, and only in that metric?

Hmmm....

considering she used actual graphs to back up her statements in the past, that puts her a leg up above all of us.

I'm not gonna question that, but I have seen many IG apologyst that seems to me like Tau and Eldar players talking how Riptidewing and Wraithknights were fine (And I'm saying this as a Tau player, and a player that likes how 8th is about infantry). But personally I think the problem with 8th IG isn't Conscripts. Is the Tempestus Scions command squads spam full of plasma. THATS OP.

I'm sure Conscripts aren't as OP as people is is saying they are. But I'm still think they aren't really balanced with other mediocre units of other armies. And I still think the way Commisar interacts with them is just too much.

Thats why I think 40k should double everything (even the max points for games) in points to have more room in the low end.

I do find it humorous that we are arguing about conscripts, to go along with scions.

But OP is OP. Hopefully we can all persuade GW about their very good attempt at balance in 8th, and how they are 99% the way there. Once conscripts are 4 pts and scions get a bump, and the other oddballs get fixed, all will be well.

Write GW!

I'll grant you that one Galas, just doubling all the points woulf help the lower brackets.

But in a game that is this dice heavy the ability to ignore dice is massively powerfull (why you should not underestimate smite ) so I think it's the comissar and CP cost that should go up.

edit: yuup we have actual mail adress to contact them community@gwplc.com. Stick '40k/AoS feedback' in the header.
Hint when writing companies, be short precise and to the point.

Also in an FAQ they said a feedback tool was coming.

If I were GW I'd wait whit any rebalancing untill fate of Konor is over tough.

I think conscripts Should be 6+ save and that would "Balance" them fine though I don't think they are terribly unbalanced now.

Are they good? Definitely. The best tarpit unit in the game? With commissars probably. Overpowered? Eh I tend to say no. By themselves without commissars they would be much worse off as they become extremely vulnerable morale checks. But Commissars negating their biggest weakness I really becomes a game of how to Get rid of the commissar or just devoting enough firepower to melt the unit.

Haven't seen much that can beat Knights, as of yet, speaking of OP units. Local store's IG player is moving away from conscript blobs and artillery support this week after losing 3 games in a row to pure knight spam. At that point it apparently just boils down to whether or not table objectives are in play.

So what does a theoretical 'conscript blob abuse' player take to fight a handful of straight Knights? At 2k it seems to be about four or five of them.

To say that commissars should make units immune to morale is just too much. Honestly considering what they are put up against there should be a non-negligible chance of them shooting the commissar and running instead!

 Ashiraya wrote:
To say that commissars should make units immune to morale is just too much. Honestly considering what they are put up against there should be a non-negligible chance of them shooting the commissar and running instead!

i really liked the previous version where they would kill off a dude if they failed a test to make a success. edit: oh wait its the same thing now though.

 Jambles wrote:
Haven't seen much that can beat Knights, as of yet, speaking of OP units. Local store's IG player is moving away from conscript blobs and artillery support this week after losing 3 games in a row to pure knight spam. At that point it apparently just boils down to whether or not table objectives are in play.

So what does a theoretical 'conscript blob abuse' player take to fight a handful of straight Knights? At 2k it seems to be about four or five of them.

Oh, for that, I'd say a Shadowsword and a techpriest to keep it alive long enough to get a few good hits in. 3+ to hit them, 2+ if supported by a Salamander or Saber searchlight, re-rollable if you've got a Trojan, 2+ to wound, also re-rollable, all they'll get is their 5+ invuln. Then it'll do 2d6 damage for each unsaved wound. Four should do them in on average, so re-rolling the number of shots to try to get 4+ would be a good use of command points. Think of the Shadowsword as really big "artillery support". Lascannons and heavy bolters can help if the volcano cannon turns up short.

For the rest of the army, focusing fire on one target at a time is important to make absolutely sure one of those knights is taken off the table each turn. Either finish off any Knight that the Shadowsword has weakened, or work on taking wounds off the next target.

It's very much a "local meta" thing, but the Shadowsword is pretty much designed to hard-counter a superheavy meta. There is a risk of concentrated fire rolling well and taking it out on the first turn, so fights against Knights will be very swingy (you'll be fighting uphill if the Shadowsword dies, and walking in the park if it lives), but if he brings enough anti-tank to reliably deal with the Shadowsword, he's probably not throwing enough dice to deal with the infantry so there's still a chance.

 Galas wrote:
I'm sure Conscripts aren't as OP as people is is saying they are. But I'm still think they aren't really balanced with other mediocre units of other armies. And I still think the way Commisar interacts with them is just too much.

Can't you just kill the Commissar then?

 Aesthete wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I'm sure Conscripts aren't as OP as people is is saying they are. But I'm still think they aren't really balanced with other mediocre units of other armies. And I still think the way Commisar interacts with them is just too much.

Can't you just kill the Commissar then?

I can because I always field Vindicares, but thats not the problem. Paying the same to make a 20 men unit inmune to morale that 50 men inmune to morale when morale should be their hardest weakness is the problem. Is a rules problem, not points or tactics one.

 Aesthete wrote:
Can't you just kill the Commissar then?

Sadly, not every army has snipers to deal with them. I play chaos and the only way to have snipers (just found this out), is to buy the Forgeworld Imperial Guard book for the R&H list. The unit is marauders I believe, and to buy an entire book to play one unit from a list that is complete trash and doesn't function, is not the way to do this. I wish I was Imperial at times so I could take 2 Vindicares or that I could cast the targeted mortal wound power more than once. If I could cast that power multiple times, than I'd use sorcerers for sniping purposes.

 Galas wrote:
I can because I always field Vindicares, but thats not the problem. Paying the same to make a 20 men unit inmune to morale that 50 men inmune to morale when morale should be their hardest weakness is the problem. Is a rules problem, not points or tactics one.

This is so true, I don't care about the fact that Conscripts can do insane damage for cheap under ideal scenarios, I care that attacking them is close to pointless and even if you kill 40 guys, the rest will sit there and still block you. With orcs, if you kill 15 guys in a boy squad than d6 will run, and every kill after that makes another 2 run so is effectively 3 kills per guy. Nids are only fearless in synapse, and besides warrior primes, everything else is big enough that you can just shoot it to death and then cause morale problems. Brimstones might be cheaper and tougher, but have next to no offense and have no morale ignoring abilites. Guard just needs to run 1 extremely cheap guy and poof, no more morale problems.

On the bright side to all this, the guy who loves conscripts in my group ran 150 in a 1500 point game the other day. Even though he won, he said it was too many dice that he'd probably never do it again.