This is kind of funny. This Ulthwe trait doesn't make me want to take gardians - it makes me want to take the exact list I've been taking the whole time in 8th. Wave serpants and wraithgaurd. Maybe a 20 man guardian squad supported by a warlock conclave could be pretty good though. We still don't know what battle focus will be - hopefully it is improved.

 Marfuzzo wrote:
btw since we understood it's gonna be a copy and paste in any case what do you bet for the rest?
I'd say
saim-han: white scars/black templars
biel tan: the one saim-han does get
alaitoc: raven guard

I would love to see Biel-tan get Salamanders. It'd be pretty weird to give them something purely CC or shooting oriented, and this promotes MSU Aspects.

I agree that White Scars make a lot of sense for Saim-Hann, though it'd also be odd insofar as a small amount of extra advance distance mostly benefits Wraithguard. Black Templars would be pretty weird since the thematically Saim-Hann units don't particularly want to charge, but then the Iyanden one is weird that way too. Really it's only Shining Spears that want anything to do with CC.

Yesterday I would have just assumed that Alatoic get the Raven Guard tactic, but the Ulthwe article seems to say that flyers get Attributes. -2 to hit on all of them and maybe even -3 on a Hemlock if Conceal still works the same way seems ridiculous.

 Fafnir wrote:
So, right now we're looking at another copy/paste codex without a whole lot of regard for flavour and some real underwhelming stuff popping out so far.

Looks a lot less IG and a lot more Admech so far.

IG Codex seems to have been a rather large mis-step in terms of power, it was to be hoped that the Eldar Codex would not be similar.

Between a considerable cut in points and the vastly expanded Runes of Fate discipline, Eldrad Ulthran makes for the perfect leader for an Ulthwé army (it helps that he’ll be available to pre-order in plastic at the same time as the codex, too!).

These Craftworld Attributes are just odd as in not what one might intuitively expect for their theme. Ulthwe getting a resilience one (even if it is handwaved away as prescience) buffing even vehicles and wraith constructs, while Iyanden gets a morale one.

Stoic, resolute craftworld that has endured much? Mechanically I'd prefer a higher chance of survival for my Wraith units, but it doesn't seem that morale benefit is so far fetched.

Btw we have all the Craftworlds traits leaks

I'll be curious to see how the Webway Assault is handled (since they alluded to discussing it on their Twitch channel this Friday), because I feel like a 20 strong Guardian unit showing up in the backfield, hitting on 2s and getting a 4++ sounds pretty entertaining.

So black guardians have the yellow guardian trait and the yellow have the black trait LMAO

Thematically those traits clearly should be switched but whatever lol.

 Red Corsair wrote:
So black guardians have the yellow guardian trait and the yellow have the black trait LMAO

Thematically those traits clearly should be switched but whatever lol.

Yep, I can see a lot of Craftworld players swapping the rules they use - but then they'll lose some stratagems which might be thematically appropriate etc...we'll see.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Btw we have all the Craftworlds traits leaks

Have we - not on the front page that I can see?

Do we know it Attributes effects all Craftworld units or just infantry and wraith constructs as seems likely?

 Elbows wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
So black guardians have the yellow guardian trait and the yellow have the black trait LMAO

Thematically those traits clearly should be switched but whatever lol.

Yep, I can see a lot of Craftworld players swapping the rules they use - but then they'll lose some stratagems which might be thematically appropriate etc...we'll see.

I mean it's not a huge deal and as you said, need to see what else they each get. Ulthwe are supposed to be psycher heavy so maybe they get a buff their (+1 to cast maybe?) plus one has Yriel and the other eldrad.

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Btw we have all the Craftworlds traits leaks

Where ?

The article was updated with the new Path of Command

"Come back tomorrow, when we’ll be checking out the indomitable warriors of Biel-Tan, alongside a new Stratagem that’ll make your Avatar of Khaine all but invincible…"

Cautiously optimistic but preparing for disappointment

Hmmmm I notice combat guardians mixed with shooty guardians. Thisis either another blunder by the studio photographers or a portent of some epic changes.

 HudsonD wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Btw we have all the Craftworlds traits leaks

Where ?

I just found this on 4chan https://i.imgur.com/Zmx3YMD.jpg

 Red Corsair wrote:


Hmmmm I notice combat guardians mixed with shooty guardians. Thisis either another blunder by the studio photographers or a portent of some epic changes.

Nah, it;s the same images that were used during all the Gathering Storm stuff - in particular the Black guardian squad loadout from them. They just couldn't be asked taking a new photo is all.

I'd be down with Guardians being 1 choice with all the options of both Storms and Defenders

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
So, right now we're looking at another copy/paste codex without a whole lot of regard for flavour and some real underwhelming stuff popping out so far.

Looks a lot less IG and a lot more Admech so far.

IG Codex seems to have been a rather large mis-step in terms of power, it was to be hoped that the Eldar Codex would not be similar.

My reference was more towards the copy/paste nature of the codex, rather than raw power. IG ended up getting a bunch of unique and characterful faction traits, while Eldar are getting a bunch that not only quick pastejobs, but also ones that don't seem to make a whole lot of sense in fluff context either.

As for the Eldar codex likely being underpowered, that's going to go without saying. It'll likely end up having one or two functioning combinations, with the possibility of a few broken aspects thanks to poor oversight involved in combining copy/paste rules with more specific unit rules. Hopefully it won't be as disappointing as Admech.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

Hmmmm I notice combat guardians mixed with shooty guardians. Thisis either another blunder by the studio photographers or a portent of some epic changes.

Nah, it;s the same images that were used during all the Gathering Storm stuff - in particular the Black guardian squad loadout from them. They just couldn't be asked taking a new photo is all.

Ah my bad then, shame. Would have been nice.

 xttz wrote:

 HudsonD wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Btw we have all the Craftworlds traits leaks

Where ?

I just found this on 4chan https://i.imgur.com/Zmx3YMD.jpg

God I hope not, really not feeling the Biel-Tan one

+1 ld when the Avatar makes them immune to morale anyway.

Re-roll 1's with shuriken weapons which most aspect warriors don't use

man, I can't wait to stop hearing admech p[layers whinge. Nothing wrong with that book, my brother has been stomping people and having a blast with it.

Imagine 2 years ago when Admech were a gamer geeks wet dream then think to now where they are already entitled to MOAR.

 xttz wrote:

 HudsonD wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:
Btw we have all the Craftworlds traits leaks

Where ?

I just found this on 4chan https://i.imgur.com/Zmx3YMD.jpg

The Biel-tan and Saim-Hann ones here are such total garbage that even for GW it's hard to believe.

A shame the Eldar Traits, not because they aren't powerfull, they have the -1 to hit on 12" etc... but because they are very... bland.

The Regimental Doctrines of IG were all very, very good, and not just in power, but in variety, fluffynes, originality, etc...
The Catachan one modified one stat of your units FFS!

That image is pure speciuulation, posted on Facebook a couple of weeks ago by someone saying "what do you guys think of these?"

 Silentz wrote:
That image is pure speciuulation, posted on Facebook a couple of weeks ago by someone saying "what do you guys think of these?"

Those are suspiciously accurate guesses then, as the Iyanden and Ulthwe ones don't really match the fluff at all and seem completely out of left field.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
So, right now we're looking at another copy/paste codex without a whole lot of regard for flavour and some real underwhelming stuff popping out so far.

Looks a lot less IG and a lot more Admech so far.

IG Codex seems to have been a rather large mis-step in terms of power, it was to be hoped that the Eldar Codex would not be similar.

My reference was more towards the copy/paste nature of the codex, rather than raw power. IG ended up getting a bunch of unique and characterful faction traits, while Eldar are getting a bunch that not only quick pastejobs, but also ones that don't seem to make a whole lot of sense in fluff context either.

As for the Eldar codex likely being underpowered, that's going to go without saying. It'll likely end up having one or two functioning combinations, with the possibility of a few broken aspects thanks to poor oversight involved in combining copy/paste rules with more specific unit rules. Hopefully it won't be as disappointing as Admech.

Agreed re the fluff - however if its in line with the other non IG codexes then its a power boost over the Index (and all those not likely to get Indexes for months).

The codexes are pretty lazy sadly but its a cash cow for GW rather than an all factions update book or similar. So no one wins - a few get OP codexes, some get dull codexes and some get sweet FA.

I just found this on 4chan https://i.imgur.com/Zmx3YMD.jpg

Ah right thanks for that.

chosen_of_khaine wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
That image is pure speciuulation, posted on Facebook a couple of weeks ago by someone saying "what do you guys think of these?"

Those are suspiciously accurate guesses then, as the Iyanden and Ulthwe ones don't really match the fluff at all and seem completely out of left field.

Haha that's a really good point.

I think we've always suspected Alaitoc will be Raven Guard/Alpha Legion. Presumably they will get the infiltrate stratagem then?

 Silentz wrote:
That image is pure speciuulation, posted on Facebook a couple of weeks ago by someone saying "what do you guys think of these?"

So you're telling me that person just happened to accurately guess the exact rules Iyanden and Ulthwe got?



Jokes aside, I'm assuming the Saim-Hann word one is just worded badly and that ignoring -1 to-hit for Heavy weapons is universal rather than Jetbikes-only. Still not a great trait though. Re-rolling charges is ok for most of the Jetbike units but not worth it on the most common Jetbike unit.

Caederes wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
That image is pure speciuulation, posted on Facebook a couple of weeks ago by someone saying "what do you guys think of these?"

So you're telling me that person just happened to accurately guess the exact rules Iyanden and Ulthwe got?



Jokes aside, I'm assuming the Saim-Hann word one is just worded badly and that ignoring -1 to-hit for Heavy weapons is universal rather than Jetbikes-only. Still not a great trait though.

than it's done...oh god the biel-tan one is just depressing...
the alaitoc one applied to tanks and wraith-construct is devastating
the saim-hann one is ok if they fix the scatter laser with an heavy 5...and shining spears rerolling charges is beautiful...i always field at least a unit as an ulthwe' player

 Silentz wrote:

chosen_of_khaine wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
That image is pure speciuulation, posted on Facebook a couple of weeks ago by someone saying "what do you guys think of these?"

Those are suspiciously accurate guesses then, as the Iyanden and Ulthwe ones don't really match the fluff at all and seem completely out of left field.

Haha that's a really good point.

I think we've always suspected Alaitoc will be Raven Guard/Alpha Legion. Presumably they will get the infiltrate stratagem then?

Yeah, though I think even that kinda goes against the fluff (I'm not a big fan of Alaitoc so I could be off on this) as I thought the reason there are so many rangers/outcasts/pathfinders is because the craftworld itself is extremely strict in its "path" system, causing many younger Eldar to choose the path of the outcast instead. So in other words, it's not the craftworld itself that uses sneaky tactics, but those that leave.

Also, I'm *hoping* a deep strike stratagem is for all Craftworlds at this point.

The Biel-Tan one is odd. +1 Leadership is almost always going to be worse than the Iyanden trait, but at the same time giving re-roll 1s to-hit to all Shuriken weapons for free when the whole army hits on 3+ normally is not terrible. Grav Tanks all have at least one Shuriken weapon, a lot of Eldar infantry either have rifles or pistols, it's fantastic for Windriders and Vypers, etc. It's not a totally insignificant buff.

The Alaitoc one looks like the all-star to the surprise of absolutely nobody that has played against Raven Guard and Alpha Legion...you'd think GW would have compensated the other Craftworlds a bit more. However, the Alaitoc one is actually even nastier because it's not just infantry and dreadnoughts....it's vehicles and flyers too unless the rule - like the Ulthwe one - says it doesn't affect units that already have a similar ability (i.e. flyers); that's a very distinct possibility! Otherwise, a flat -2 to-hit Alaitoc flyers is absurd and it makes things like Wraithknights and the like just a tad more worthwhile.

Come to think of it, I actually hope Alaitoc doesn't get that Infiltrate stratagem. Could you imagine doing that with Wraithguard/blades, assuming they limit the stratagem to infantry? Yuck. Fire Dragons even?

More ways for armies to gain CP back. Salty Chaos players have none m, and the Death Guard have the literal tax unit Tallyman.

Is it confirmed that there's a Webway Assault stratagem?

"Black Guardians" might end up being a decent alpha-strike unit if you mix Doom and the Discipline stratagem on them, not having to pay extra points probably outweighs the potential command point expenditure.

The article seems to imply Guardians are still 8 points, meaning they're still trash for anything other than filling out Wave Serpents and Troop slots. If Dire Avengers didn't drop to at least 12-13 points it looks like Eldar players will continue to have a dire time with Troops choices...

 Cream Tea wrote:
Wraithlords should be weak to anti-wraithlord weapons like lascannons though.

I think it's strange that it has a degrading statline when Dreadnoughts don't. That irks me.

It's to make up for nearly 20 years of the reverse being true.

Caederes wrote:
The Biel-Tan one is odd. +1 Leadership is almost always going to be worse than the Iyanden trait, but at the same time giving re-roll 1s to-hit to all Shuriken weapons for free when the whole army hits on 3+ normally is not terrible. Grav Tanks all have at least one Shuriken weapon, a lot of Eldar infantry either have rifles or pistols, it's fantastic for Windriders and Vypers, etc. It's not a totally insignificant buff.

The Alaitoc one looks like the all-star to the surprise of absolutely nobody that has played against Raven Guard and Alpha Legion...you'd think GW would have compensated the other Craftworlds a bit more. However, the Alaitoc one is actually even nastier because it's not just infantry and dreadnoughts....it's vehicles and flyers too unless the rule - like the Ulthwe one - says it doesn't affect units that already have a similar ability (i.e. flyers); that's a very distinct possibility! Otherwise, a flat -2 to-hit Alaitoc flyers is absurd and it makes things like Wraithknights and the like just a tad more worthwhile.

The big problem with re-rolling 1s to hit for Biel-tan is that that's what Autarchs do anyway. And only shuriken weapons is bizarre -- that's mostly good for things other than Aspect Warriors.

If these are the Attributes then there's basically no reason to take anything other than Ulthwe or Alatoic. I guess if you really want to run swarms of Guardians you can do Iyanden.

Ulthwe trait is underwhelming but it's second best IMO to aliatoc. Clear that eldar aren't even going to be close to competitive.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Caederes wrote:
The Biel-Tan one is odd. +1 Leadership is almost always going to be worse than the Iyanden trait, but at the same time giving re-roll 1s to-hit to all Shuriken weapons for free when the whole army hits on 3+ normally is not terrible. Grav Tanks all have at least one Shuriken weapon, a lot of Eldar infantry either have rifles or pistols, it's fantastic for Windriders and Vypers, etc. It's not a totally insignificant buff.

The Alaitoc one looks like the all-star to the surprise of absolutely nobody that has played against Raven Guard and Alpha Legion...you'd think GW would have compensated the other Craftworlds a bit more. However, the Alaitoc one is actually even nastier because it's not just infantry and dreadnoughts....it's vehicles and flyers too unless the rule - like the Ulthwe one - says it doesn't affect units that already have a similar ability (i.e. flyers); that's a very distinct possibility! Otherwise, a flat -2 to-hit Alaitoc flyers is absurd and it makes things like Wraithknights and the like just a tad more worthwhile.

The big problem with re-rolling 1s to hit for Biel-tan is that that's what Autarchs do anyway. And only shuriken weapons is bizarre -- that's mostly good for things other than Aspect Warriors.

If these are the Attributes then there's basically no reason to take anything other than Ulthwe or Alatoic. I guess if you really want to run swarms of Guardians you can do Iyanden.

That's the point though, it means you're getting maximum efficiency from your Guardians/Windriders/tanks/etc without needing an Autarch to baby-sit them, meaning if you have one he can always hang around your Aspect Warriors and Wraiths or whatever. It saves you points and tactical considerations in case you didn't want to run one anyway. The Ulthwe trait is similar in the sense that it saves you having to buy Spirit Stones on your vehicles.

Obviously it is weird that it doesn't affect most Aspect Warriors, but Dire Avengers get a much needed boost at least. I'm not saying it's good, just saying it's not all bad.

The Iyanden one is good if you're taking bigger assault units, but seeing as Eldar have good Leadership, if you need to use the Iyanden trait to keep your unit from running away then chances are the unit has already been gutted anyway. It's mostly just to stop bad morale rolls messing up your day, particularly with Wraiths.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Caederes wrote:
The Biel-Tan one is odd. +1 Leadership is almost always going to be worse than the Iyanden trait, but at the same time giving re-roll 1s to-hit to all Shuriken weapons for free when the whole army hits on 3+ normally is not terrible. Grav Tanks all have at least one Shuriken weapon, a lot of Eldar infantry either have rifles or pistols, it's fantastic for Windriders and Vypers, etc. It's not a totally insignificant buff.

The big problem with re-rolling 1s to hit for Biel-tan is that that's what Autarchs do anyway. And only shuriken weapons is bizarre -- that's mostly good for things other than Aspect Warriors.

If these are the Attributes then there's basically no reason to take anything other than Ulthwe or Alatoic. I guess if you really want to run swarms of Guardians you can do Iyanden.

Agreed, Biel-Tan armies are generally heavy on Aspect Warriors, the alleged trait does nothing for 6 out of the 10 different Aspects and if you were running an Autarch /Avatar (i run both) it's even more pointless because the bonuses it provides are already surpassed by these characters. Nobody in their right mind would be going for it over the alleged Alaitoc trait or Ynarri.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ulthwe trait is underwhelming but it's second best IMO to aliatoc. Clear that eldar aren't even going to be close to competitive.

The fact that Guardians apparently haven't changed in points adds credence to your claim.

However, the significant points drops for Spiritseers and apparently Eldrad could herald more changes in the codex. Traits are secondary to good points costs and profiles, no trait is going to save Guardians from being terrible if they're still a meltabomb and a half points a model with T3, 5+ save and a 12" gun. Conversely, Dire Avengers will actually be useful if they drop down to 12 or 13 points per model. We'll see.

Remember, these teasers rarely list all of the changes - meaning you could see plenty of points drops or changes (and we've seen tons of "Power Level" adjustments in almost every codex - decreasing the cost of many things, some by as much as 35%). If you take the Eldar index right now and reduce the cost on stuff...even then it's almost worthwhile. It's just really damn expensive for Tough 3 stuff that gets shot off the board easily.

I sure hope the leak guesses are wrong (but they look too accurate). Biel-Tan will be absolute garbage with that. One thing that bugs me is that there's been zero hint of making the proper units troops for the proper Craftworlds (something I think would have been mentioned in the teases). Really disappointing fluff-wise there.

I can't complain since everything thus far is at least better than the Index - that's just not saying a ton.

Biel-Tan gets ripped apart and is effectively dead in the water and the result is a more stoic populace and some better gun scopes? That would be disappointing.

I want to hear how my Aspect Warriors are changing or what strategms might help them.

But GW has said feck all so far about any of them.
And non of those Craftword Attributes help them too much either.

 Elbows wrote:
Remember, these teasers rarely list all of the changes - meaning you could see plenty of points drops or changes (and we've seen tons of "Power Level" adjustments in almost every codex - decreasing the cost of many things, some by as much as 35%). If you take the Eldar index right now and reduce the cost on stuff...even then it's almost worthwhile. It's just really damn expensive for Tough 3 stuff that gets shot off the board easily.

I sure hope the leak guesses are wrong (but they look too accurate). Biel-Tan will be absolute garbage with that. One thing that bugs me is that there's been zero hint of making the proper units troops for the proper Craftworlds (something I think would have been mentioned in the teases). Really disappointing fluff-wise there.

I can't complain since everything thus far is at least better than the Index - that's just not saying a ton.

Oh, sure, it's just pretty disappointing that there appear to be only 2 reasonable Craftworld Attributes to choose from, and both of them are fairly straightforward durability improvements. Part of what's fun about these is trying out different styles of army, building around the different kinds of advantages you can get. Like, when you look through the new Guard codex you really want to try to put together a Catachan artillery/Russ army or a Cadian infantry gunline or a Vostroyan/Armageddon mechanized force or maybe some Valhallan or Vostroyan superheavies. Here you choose between making your things a lot more durable outside of 12" or a little more durable all the time. It's not really a power-level thing; the Raven Guard tactic is one of the best anyone has. It's about lacking interesting choices.

Stratagems could still be good, although the Ulthwe one isn't anything spectacular. A generic deep strike stratagem would give us some really interesting options. If Alatoic just gets Raven Guard infiltration that'll be more finicky since it's so first turn dependent and assault-oriented.

But of course you're right that the big thing is points and unit-level rules as far as overall competitiveness is concerned.

I currently have 2 Eldar forces...Iyanden and Ulthwe. The latter I just added with the Fracture book to get back the webway assault, so I hope it comes back.
As for the Iyanden trait, it's not terrible (especially for the non degrading vehicles/wraith constructs). but the leadership change only really affects guardians which will entice you to take a single large unit. It's really odd that you would add Guardians to act as a screen to protect your wraith constructs when in reality, the constructs should be protecting the precious lives of the few remaining Eldar on Iyanden, lol. Strange old game.

It's the other aspects that I think will help Iyanden, the improved toughness, cheaper spiritseers, strategems, etc. I typically run a 5 man axe/shield sqd on foot with farseer casting Fortune on them so didn't always use transports.

I do find it funny that the teaser states "Perhaps nothing is worse than watching a couple of casualties on a costly unit of Wraithguard turn into a devastating rout". Yeah, except a couple of casualties doesn't even affect the wraithguard unit morale wise (unless there are Ld debuffs in place), and if it did reach -4, then losing 1 wraithguard is hardly a devastating rout. Plonkers.

Oooo more made to order. Might pick up that Hawk Exarch.

 DivineVisitor wrote:


Agreed, Biel-Tan armies are generally heavy on Aspect Warriors, the alleged trait does nothing for 6 out of the 10 different Aspects and if you were running an Autarch /Avatar (i run both) it's even more pointless because the bonuses it provides are already surpassed by these characters. Nobody in their right mind would be going for it over the alleged Alaitoc trait or Ynarri.

I can understand it though, Divine. Biel-Tan has always been that they have a higher proportion of Aspects, not that theirs are necessarily better. Having the populace as a whole better at shooting and 'toughing out' incoming fire does represent a more militarised outlook a bit more neatly than simply "all Aspects get +x" to my mind. Not saying that it's necessarily the greatest upgrade in the world (though lord knows in most of my games "reroll all 1's" would have been a godsend! ) but I can see the logic.

As for the Guardian forcefields, I'm surprised it's taken so long; ever since Dawn of War had it as a squad upgrade, it's always been something I've thought was an obvious idea to bring in, especially to sell an 'upgrade pack' of little, clear plastic shapes to represent it.

 bullyboy wrote:
I currently have 2 Eldar forces...Iyanden and Ulthwe. The latter I just added with the Fracture book to get back the webway assault, so I hope it comes back.
As for the Iyanden trait, it's not terrible (especially for the non degrading vehicles/wraith constructs). but the leadership change only really affects guardians which will entice you to take a single large unit. It's really odd that you would add Guardians to act as a screen to protect your wraith constructs when in reality, the constructs should be protecting the precious lives of the few remaining Eldar on Iyanden, lol. Strange old game.

It's the other aspects that I think will help Iyanden, the improved toughness, cheaper spiritseers, strategems, etc. I typically run a 5 man axe/shield sqd on foot with farseer casting Fortune on them so didn't always use transports.

I do find it funny that the teaser states "Perhaps nothing is worse than watching a couple of casualties on a costly unit of Wraithguard turn into a devastating rout". Yeah, except a couple of casualties doesn't even affect the wraithguard unit morale wise (unless there are Ld debuffs in place), and if it did reach -4, then losing 1 wraithguard is hardly a devastating rout. Plonkers.

Same thing with the decreasing statline.....this hardly ever affects the hemlock (another wraith construct) due to auto hits where BS does not matter, but it sure helps a Crimson Hunter. So while I think the trait itself is fine, it certainly doesn't reward a force made mostly of wraith constructs, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:
Oooo more made to order. Might pick up that Hawk Exarch.

where did you see this?

Why would Saim-haan want to charge anything? Why would Saim-haan ever want to take a Heavy weapon which can't use Battle Focus?

W H A T T H E F * * * * O F C Y R A X U S

 ph34r wrote:

4chan rumor

Why would Saim-haan want to charge anything? Why would Saim-haan ever want to take a Heavy weapon which can't use Battle Focus?

W H A T T H E F * * * * O F C Y R A X U S

Before getting upset, consider the source.

 pretre wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

4chan rumor

Why would Saim-haan want to charge anything? Why would Saim-haan ever want to take a Heavy weapon which can't use Battle Focus?

W H A T T H E F * * * * O F C Y R A X U S

Before getting upset, consider the source.

I consider the source shady as hell, but as the same time they got the first two right, and the first two were dumb and nonsensical. The last 3 being the obvious Raven Guard plus two more dumb and nonsensical fits my model of GW decision making to a T.

EDIT: (this is based off some user in this thread saying this photo was posted a few week ago somewhere on Facebook. I have no first hand knowledge of that being the case or not)

The Sam-Haim seems to be agaisn't the design phylosopy of all Chapter Tactics. They are all generic to affect all the army, how is the Sam-Haim one just gonna affect jetbikes?
So you have a Craftworld trait that affects all your army... but it doesn't? It doesn't makes sense.

 ph34r wrote:
EDIT: (this is based off some user in this thread saying this photo was posted a few week ago somewhere on Facebook. I have no first hand knowledge of that being the case or not)

According to GIS, that image is really new.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Jealous that IG didn't get the Made to Order treatment :(

They did, it was just well before the codex dropped. Lots of people were stocking up the different regiment models.

 pretre wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
EDIT: (this is based off some user in this thread saying this photo was posted a few week ago somewhere on Facebook. I have no first hand knowledge of that being the case or not)

According to GIS, that image is really new.

I pray you are right! The Eldar don't deserve garbage doctrines.

 ph34r wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

4chan rumor

Why would Saim-haan want to charge anything? Why would Saim-haan ever want to take a Heavy weapon which can't use Battle Focus?

W H A T T H E F * * * * O F C Y R A X U S

Before getting upset, consider the source.

I consider the source shady as hell, but as the same time they got the first two right, and the first two were dumb and nonsensical. The last 3 being the obvious Raven Guard plus two more dumb and nonsensical fits my model of GW decision making to a T.

EDIT: (this is based off some user in this thread saying this photo was posted a few week ago somewhere on Facebook. I have no first hand knowledge of that being the case or not)

It's also worth mentioning that all of those are copy/pastes of existing ones.

Alaitoc--Raven Guard
Iyanden--Valhallan(who, even if it was posted a few weeks ago, had their stuff previewed on Warhammer Community)
Ulthwe--Iron Hands
Biel-Tan and Saim Hann are the ones that I can't remember exact replicas of.

So they get the 6+ ignore wound thing on everything but heaven forbid Iron Hands get anything close to good right?

Pictures angry Saim Hann players pulling shurican cannons off jetbikes and reapplying scatter lasers, lol.

Iyanden's isn't actually a copy-paste. Its morale effect is significantly better than what the Valhallan doctrine does (tempered by Eldar units benefiting much less from it than Guard units would). If the image predates any of these articles, that's pretty compelling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So they get the 6+ ignore wound thing on everything but heaven forbid Iron Hands get anything close to good right?

Oh yeah, this is total bs. They should absolutely FAQ Marines to get Chapter Tactics on everything, maybe excepting flyers. The only real problem unit I foresee would be Razorbacks, so nerf them in some other way.

There are enough dead horses in this thread to supply an entire Mongol horde.

At this point they should just give Chapter and Legion tactics to every type unit in Chapter Approved. (Ignoring superheavies and flyers, superheavies shouldn't have that, not baneblades or Mechanicus Knights ,etc... and IG flyers being Aeronautica Imperiales don't have them either)

Daedalus81 wrote:
There are enough dead horses in this thread to supply an entire Mongol horde.

An Undead Mongol Horde, maybe

 ph34r wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
EDIT: (this is based off some user in this thread saying this photo was posted a few week ago somewhere on Facebook. I have no first hand knowledge of that being the case or not)

According to GIS, that image is really new.

I pray you are right! The Eldar don't deserve garbage doctrines.

In *theory* that images was updated 10 hours ago to include the Iyanden one check as verified, still never heard of it before today so let's see.

Very underwhelming. Not just in power level, but in flavor. Hope the items and stratagems compensate.

 Galas wrote:
The Sam-Haim seems to be agaisn't the design phylosopy of all Chapter Tactics. They are all generic to affect all the army, how is the Sam-Haim one just gonna affect jetbikes?
So you have a Craftworld trait that affects all your army... but it doesn't? It doesn't makes sense.

The rules just wouldn't have any pre-conditions like the SM ones. Just take them as they are.

 bullyboy wrote:
Pictures angry Saim Hann players pulling shurican cannons off jetbikes and reapplying scatter lasers, lol.

Even if that trait ends up being true, Shuricannons would still be better for Windrider. You cannot shoot a Heavy weapon after Advancing, which is the whole point of Battle Focus.
And weapons that have no AP are not very good this edition. Shuriken weapons at least have a change to be AP-3.
Now if they tweak the points values or make Scatter lasers Heavy 6 or something like that, it changes everything.

But I agree that the Saim-Hann trait doesn't seem right. It only affects 1 weapon on a single unit type. Seems more like a stratagem than an overall trait.
I'd bet it is more of a copy-paste of the White Scars chapter tactic, possible mixed with Black Templars

 Galas wrote:
At this point they should just give Chapter and Legion tactics to every type unit in Chapter Approved. (Ignoring superheavies and flyers, superheavies shouldn't have that, not baneblades or Mechanicus Knights ,etc... and IG flyers being Aeronautica Imperiales don't have them either)

Daedalus81 wrote:
There are enough dead horses in this thread to supply an entire Mongol horde.

An Undead Mongol Horde, maybe

But whats the reasoning? Guard made it so you have to take the 3-5 super heavies or the sup command detachment. Granted you can take 3 platoon leaders for a total of 90 points just to get doctrines but its still a tax. Leave it as is. Give it only if you take it in a detachment that isn't by itself.

I suppose that if every superheavy can have "Tactics" it could be balanced, but I think it limits the scope and freedom of those tactics.

Is not the same to give a -1 to hit in a 12" range to normal tanks, dreadnoughts and foot troops than to Imperial Knights, Khorne Lord of Skulls, Titans, Baneblades, etc...

 ph34r wrote:

Why would Saim-haan want to charge anything? Why would Saim-haan ever want to take a Heavy weapon which can't use Battle Focus?

W H A T T H E F * * * * O F C Y R A X U S

Actually the Saim-Hann gains nicely from that trait, Scatpacks can move and shoot at full BS again, and Shining Spears get re-rolls to charge. The index Battle Focus is a complete trash rule anyway.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Iyanden's isn't actually a copy-paste. Its morale effect is significantly better than what the Valhallan doctrine does (tempered by Eldar units benefiting much less from it than Guard units would). If the image predates any of these articles, that's pretty compelling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So they get the 6+ ignore wound thing on everything but heaven forbid Iron Hands get anything close to good right?

Oh yeah, this is total bs. They should absolutely FAQ Marines to get Chapter Tactics on everything, maybe excepting flyers. The only real problem unit I foresee would be Razorbacks, so nerf them in some other way.

Assault Cannons need a mild price increase and that's it. I'd think a cool extra 10-15 points would do it.

 Galef wrote:
But I agree that the Saim-Hann trait doesn't seem right. It only affects 1 weapon on a single unit type. Seems more like a stratagem than an overall trait.

I don't have my Indexes on me, but do Vypers not have the Jetbike Keyword?

Maybe they do in the Codex, which gives it a bigger application.

 Imateria wrote:

Actually the Saim-Hann gains nicely from that trait, Scatpacks can move and shoot at full BS again, and Shining Spears get re-rolls to charge. The index Battle Focus is a complete trash rule anyway.

Why would you want Scatter Lasers on your bikes unless they buff them somehow? Battle Focus makes a bigger difference than this supposed craftworld trait, unless it lets vehicles move and fire without penalty. Then it's... still not very good, bu hey.

 Cream Tea wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Actually the Saim-Hann gains nicely from that trait, Scatpacks can move and shoot at full BS again, and Shining Spears get re-rolls to charge. The index Battle Focus is a complete trash rule anyway.

Why would you want Scatter Lasers on your bikes unless they buff them somehow? Battle Focus makes a bigger difference than this supposed craftworld trait, unless it lets vehicles move and fire without penalty. Then it's... still not very good, bu hey.

I thought the 'supposed' trait literally does do that... lets vehicles move and fire heavy weapons without penalty. Making scatter lasers usable again, as they are currenly pointless as your jetbikes would need to be stationary to shoot.

Means they can't advance and shoot, but thats no big deal.

Be interesting to see if those traits are accurate though. Did they say which craftworld is up tomorrow?

Biel-Tan is up for tomorrow.

Niiru wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Actually the Saim-Hann gains nicely from that trait, Scatpacks can move and shoot at full BS again, and Shining Spears get re-rolls to charge. The index Battle Focus is a complete trash rule anyway.

Why would you want Scatter Lasers on your bikes unless they buff them somehow? Battle Focus makes a bigger difference than this supposed craftworld trait, unless it lets vehicles move and fire without penalty. Then it's... still not very good, bu hey.

I thought the 'supposed' trait literally does do that... lets vehicles move and fire heavy weapons without penalty. Making scatter lasers usable again, as they are currenly pointless as your jetbikes would need to be stationary to shoot.

Means they can't advance and shoot, but thats no big deal.

Be interesting to see if those traits are accurate though. Did they say which craftworld is up tomorrow?

The way it's worded in the picture, it applies only to jetbikes, not vehicles.

Tomorrow is Biel-Tan.

 Redemption wrote:
Biel-Tan is up for tomorrow.

That should prove it then. It's a very odd guess for a trait... +1 ld is not that good, it's not like Eldar struggle for leadership, and why give a re-roll 1's ability to shuriken weapons, when the Autarch gives a reroll 1's to all weapons, shooting and melee. Seems weird.

If these turn out to be true, it looks like GW really, REALLY wants you to field loads of Guardians. Yet in true GW fashion, they'll miss the mark entirely.

These are so obviously fake people, come on and use your heads. The image never appeared until today, on 4chan, AFTER the Ulthwe preview was out, and even more damning, it specifically mentions "Shuriken weapons" and "Jetbikes" in the traits, which is impossible because GWs 8th edition design paradigm for sub-faction rules is that they all apply to the same sets of units and have an effect that works for all of them.

How could Saim-Hann or Biel-Tan possibly be true when we already know that Iyanden and Ulthwe affect units that are not Jetbikes and do not have Shuriken weapons? The fact that anyone believed this crap for a second is sad.

Yeah I'm skeptical as well. I haven't seen the picture before, and the ones we haven't seen are the most nebulous.

chosen_of_khaine wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

chosen_of_khaine wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
That image is pure speciuulation, posted on Facebook a couple of weeks ago by someone saying "what do you guys think of these?"

Those are suspiciously accurate guesses then, as the Iyanden and Ulthwe ones don't really match the fluff at all and seem completely out of left field.

Haha that's a really good point.

I think we've always suspected Alaitoc will be Raven Guard/Alpha Legion. Presumably they will get the infiltrate stratagem then?

Yeah, though I think even that kinda goes against the fluff (I'm not a big fan of Alaitoc so I could be off on this) as I thought the reason there are so many rangers/outcasts/pathfinders is because the craftworld itself is extremely strict in its "path" system, causing many younger Eldar to choose the path of the outcast instead. So in other words, it's not the craftworld itself that uses sneaky tactics, but those that leave.

Also, I'm *hoping* a deep strike stratagem is for all Craftworlds at this point.

Alaitoc makes use of its Outcasts as they stay loyal even if they don't like the strictness of the Path system, so that Craftworld Attribute is expected for Alaitoc.

The Biel-tan one (if true) is disappointing and not very thematic. Re-rolling 1's to hit for shuriken when most Aspect Warriors don't use shurikens as their main weapons? When was the last time Banshees or Scorpions seriously shot with their pistols?

Trolling people for 1 day? not very creative. I give it a 90% chance this is true.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Trolling people for 1 day? not very creative. I give it a 90% chance this is true.

Except the track record of 4chan (even allowing for the fact that it has always been multiple people because of the anonymity problem) is by far one of the worst of any that I track.

4chan - Total rumors: (5 TRUE) / (102 FALSE) / (4 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE) - Updated 8/31/2017

They regularly troll everyone and post incorrect information. To put this into perspective, even Ghost21, a confirmed fake, has a better track record than the 4chan community.

ghost21 - Total rumors: (8 TRUE) / (59 FALSE) / (2 PARTIALLY TRUE/VAGUE) - NO RUMORS OUTSTANDING - CONFIRMED FAKE

Tidied OP up a bit and added new stuff, let me know if I missed anything

 Xenomancers wrote:
Trolling people for 1 day? not very creative. I give it a 90% chance this is true.

This is 4chan though...

Iracundus wrote:

chosen_of_khaine wrote:

 Silentz wrote:

chosen_of_khaine wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
That image is pure speciuulation, posted on Facebook a couple of weeks ago by someone saying "what do you guys think of these?"

Those are suspiciously accurate guesses then, as the Iyanden and Ulthwe ones don't really match the fluff at all and seem completely out of left field.

Haha that's a really good point.

I think we've always suspected Alaitoc will be Raven Guard/Alpha Legion. Presumably they will get the infiltrate stratagem then?

Yeah, though I think even that kinda goes against the fluff (I'm not a big fan of Alaitoc so I could be off on this) as I thought the reason there are so many rangers/outcasts/pathfinders is because the craftworld itself is extremely strict in its "path" system, causing many younger Eldar to choose the path of the outcast instead. So in other words, it's not the craftworld itself that uses sneaky tactics, but those that leave.

Also, I'm *hoping* a deep strike stratagem is for all Craftworlds at this point.

Alaitoc makes use of its Outcasts as they stay loyal even if they don't like the strictness of the Path system, so that Craftworld Attribute is expected for Alaitoc.

The Biel-tan one (if true) is disappointing and not very thematic. Re-rolling 1's to hit for shuriken when most Aspect Warriors don't use shurikens as their main weapons? When was the last time Banshees or Scorpions seriously shot with their pistols?

biel tan isnt just about aspect warriors. Banshees, scorpions and dire avengers have them, as do shining spears and reaper exarches.... . Also pistols are also used to shoot in cc now,. Im pretty ok with that and the ld buff, im a Biel Tan collector/player...

As I have 4K pts painted as Biel-Tan, I suppose I can run Alaitoc and say they are Corsairs... -1 to hit my Serpents seems better than the 6+ ward, which I can still pick up.

I have never had to utilize Ld buffs so seems very wasted and Autaurchs have a better overall +1 bubble.

So is Ulthwe the first one where the Super Special Not-Saving-Throw of Various Random Names doesn't stack with other Super Special Not-Saving-Throws of Various Random Names?

Is this a power decline after the first wave of codexes?

Too early to tell for sure, but how do you all think the Craftworld traits will interact with the Ynnari rules?

As it stands, the unit only needs The Aeldari keyword to qualify for Ynnari, and they don't lose the <Craftworld> keyword. Assuming the requirement to qualify for a Craftworld trait is the same as in other codex's, the two should not conflict, correct?

Spartacus wrote:
Too early to tell for sure, but how do you all think the Craftworld traits will interact with the Ynnari rules?

As it stands, the unit only needs The Aeldari keyword to qualify for Ynnari, and they don't lose the <Craftworld> keyword. Assuming the requirement to qualify for a Craftworld trait is the same as in other codex's, the two should not conflict, correct?

As it stands, it's a definite maybe.

We basically won't know until the codex is released, because we don't know the exact wording of the Craftworld Traits page. Might have a sentance that says "If detachment is Ynnari, then they do not get craftworld traits". Or it might specifically say "Ynnari also gain craftworld traits if detachment is battleforged". There is no way to know, unless one of the preview days gives a Ynnari example.

Did you see where
Warlocks are now 35 points? they SpiritSeer is 10 points more at 45 points.

good for spiritseers bad for warlocks

 admironheart wrote:
Did you see where
Warlocks are now 35 points? they SpiritSeer is 10 points more at 45 points.

good for spiritseers bad for warlocks

I assume you're getting that from the community page saying "only 10 more than a warlock!". But there's no reason that the person who wrote that might not have been referring to the current warlock cost, as they're still working from whatever they're being told to release on a day-to-day basis. They might not know the new warlock costs.

Alternatively, the Warlock might be 35 points, but might have the rules changed. They might get the full version of smite, or gain some wounds.

They don't have the wraith buff aura, and they have less wounds, and an awful version of smite. There was no reason to take one from the index, and if they stay the same and are 35 points, taking a bunch of spiritseers instead is a no-brainer.

Another thing - Warlocks might stay the same at 35 points, but get their jetbike upgrade a lot cheaper. Spiritseers can't take jetbikes, and warlocks on jetbikes (at the right price) might well be worth it. Return of the seer council, would be nice.

Can’t take jet bikes “yet”...

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Can’t take jet bikes “yet”...

No model no rules :p

 ph34r wrote:
No model no rules :p

That's right... which would mean we'll get no Autarch entry in the Codex, just Autarch Skyrunner and Autarch with Swooping Hawk wings, since those are the only autarchs GW sell.

That feels odd to me.

Any word on whether Shadow Specters will make the codex? Can we hope Mymeara gets some love from forgeworld?

 Generalstoner wrote:
Any word on whether Shadow Specters will make the codex? Can we hope Mymeara gets some love from forgeworld?

Shadow spectres are forge world models so their rules will come from forgeworld


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niiru wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
Did you see where
Warlocks are now 35 points? they SpiritSeer is 10 points more at 45 points.

good for spiritseers bad for warlocks

I assume you're getting that from the community page saying "only 10 more than a warlock!". But there's no reason that the person who wrote that might not have been referring to the current warlock cost, as they're still working from whatever they're being told to release on a day-to-day basis. They might not know the new warlock costs.

Alternatively, the Warlock might be 35 points, but might have the rules changed. They might get the full version of smite, or gain some wounds.

They don't have the wraith buff aura, and they have less wounds, and an awful version of smite. There was no reason to take one from the index, and if they stay the same and are 35 points, taking a bunch of spiritseers instead is a no-brainer.

Another thing - Warlocks might stay the same at 35 points, but get their jetbike upgrade a lot cheaper. Spiritseers can't take jetbikes, and warlocks on jetbikes (at the right price) might well be worth it. Return of the seer council, would be nice.

There's also three more powers (well 6 really) that we haven't seen for warlocks, destructor/renewer might come back and give them a short range but better version of destructer than the single mortal wound as well as whatever the other two powers might be.

 ph34r wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Can’t take jet bikes “yet”...

No model no rules :p

Me thinks a new kit may be on the horizon . . .

 Uriels_Flame wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Can’t take jet bikes “yet”...

No model no rules :p

Me thinks a new kit may be on the horizon . . .

spiritseer on jetbike does not fit the fluff at all

Fluff? Did someone say fluff?

 Uriels_Flame wrote:


Me thinks a new kit may be on the horizon . . .

Pics or it didn't happen.

It would be such a random thing to do when there are so many other things that would make more sense.

 Cream Tea wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
No model no rules :p

That's right... which would mean we'll get no Autarch entry in the Codex, just Autarch Skyrunner and Autarch with Swooping Hawk wings, since those are the only autarchs GW sell.

That feels odd to me.

Chances of them removing the non-jetbike Autarch is slim, and as you say there's not yet a model for it. It would be just as feasible to run a warlock on jetbike model as a spiritseer, as they're basically the same thing. In fact spiritseers are more like warlocks now, considering warlocks are... I dunno, more like slightly psychic village idiots at the moment.

Waiting on the new warlock powers is important, but if warlocks are otherwise the same then it would still be much better to take a spiritseer instead. Can survive perils, more wounds, proper smite, still gets to use new warlock powers, also buffs wraiths on the side, only 10 points more. That's the price of one spirit stones upgrade, and you get ALL of that for it. And if you play Ulthwe, you can trade all your spirit stones for spiritseers, and profit.

This is all, of course, only true if warlocks are the same. I for one hope they get a big buff. Or if they drop to like 15/20 points, then the jetbike upgrade might be worthwhile.

Any word on pricing for made to order? Should I prepare my wallet for stupidly priced Bonesingers?

Niiru wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
No model no rules :p

That's right... which would mean we'll get no Autarch entry in the Codex, just Autarch Skyrunner and Autarch with Swooping Hawk wings, since those are the only autarchs GW sell.

That feels odd to me.

Chances of them removing the non-jetbike Autarch is slim

The regular autarch isn't a model that GW currently sell, along with the autarch with warp jump generator. The only sell the winged one and the skyrunner. They've clearly stated the codices are supposed to contain their current range.

Yeah, but then they made Space Marine Lieutenants and Chaos Space Marine Exalted Champions, which while easy to kitbash have no official model.

I think our Autarchs will be safe, they would also theoretically need to remove a plethora of their weapon options aswell. Surely all the options aren't represented in what is currently sold. Could see it being too much of a hassle (#wishful thinking).

 ph34r wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Can’t take jet bikes “yet”...

No model no rules :p

The GK codex has a an entry for a grand master in dreadknight armor, and a tutorial to convert one (since the model doesn't exist).
A spiritseer skyrunner would be an easy enough conversion, by just mixing a spiritseer and a warlock skyrunner.
I find it unlikely, but so far multiple codex got new entries (like the GK GM, or the bullgryn bodyguard). A spiritseer skyrunner, while not the most fluffy or useful thing, could be a thing. As long as they don't put the exarchs on their own datasheets I'm fine.

Exarchs are supposed to be pretty badass though. Getting their own sheets would actually be pretty cool, so long as they were given the potency of an Autarch or similarly pointed HQ. Then you could even run an army based around a singular path. Which would be a nice alternative to the complete blandness of the current faction abilities.

 Fafnir wrote:
Exarchs are supposed to be pretty badass though. Getting their own sheets would actually be pretty cool, so long as they were given the potency of an Autarch or similarly pointed HQ. Then you could even run an army based around a singular path. Which would be a nice alternative to the complete blandness of the current faction abilities.

Well, if GW were to spin out another Elite infantry choice into full fledged armies themed around them, similar to how they did it with Plague Marine and/or Rubric Marines for Chaos (or Harlequins for that matter), they'd probably get their own Dex.

They don't really need a full dex though. Really, since Phoenix Lords should probably be more akin to primarchs, having the Exarchs assume something along their level, while making the Lords themselves a little more beefcake (or saving them for a later rerelease) wouldn't be terrible.

Nice that they are doing made to order for some of the old heros. Sad that craftworld Iybraesil may not be included in the new codex. Hopefully my girls get some love and Banshees can be troops with them.

I think, as a 2nd ed. player this is something I'm still coming to terms with - and something which still bugs me. When 3rd-7th occurred there was a major shift in the Eldar army. Exarchs went from badasses who could tackle anything outside of a greater daemon with a decent chance of winning to...squad leaders. Warlocks were nerfed into the ground, losing the ability to be three different levels (one of which was near Farseer level). Even they were competent in close combat, and witchblades/shining spears actually did something. Phoenix Lords were better than they are, though not too much so - no Primarchs were around, so the "level" was max'ed out by things like Avatars and Greater Daemons. Even the Farseer was 10x more potent than he is now (and he was kicked down another peg or two when they invented the Autarch). The Autarch only exists because they nuked Exarchs into paste...and wanted to sell another model.

Fluff-wise they don't match up well at all currently. In my head I still think "eh, I'll tackle that unit, I've got an Exarch there..." and then I got whooped. I also take too many guardians in 8th because I like them, and refuse to acknowledge that they're expensive and have 12" range while being weaker than fine china.

 Elbows wrote:
I think, as a 2nd ed. player this is something I'm still coming to terms with - and something which still bugs me. When 3rd-7th occurred there was a major shift in the Eldar army. Exarchs went from badasses who could tackle anything outside of a greater daemon with a decent chance of winning to...squad leaders. Warlocks were nerfed into the ground, losing the ability to be three different levels (one of which was near Farseer level). Even they were competent in close combat, and witchblades/shining spears actually did something. Phoenix Lords were better than they are, though not too much so - no Primarchs were around, so the "level" was max'ed out by things like Avatars and Greater Daemons. Even the Farseer was 10x more potent than he is now (and he was kicked down another peg or two when they invented the Autarch). The Autarch only exists because they nuked Exarchs into paste...and wanted to sell another model.

Fluff-wise they don't match up well at all currently. In my head I still think "eh, I'll tackle that unit, I've got an Exarch there..." and then I got whooped. I also take too many guardians in 8th because I like them, and refuse to acknowledge that they're expensive and have 12" range while being weaker than fine china.

I feel you. Autarchs are basically the old Exarchs and I'll never be satisfied until the Avatar is on par with the Bloodthirstier again.

Side note, I've resigned myself to never being satisfied

 Galef wrote:
If these turn out to be true, it looks like GW really, REALLY wants you to field loads of Guardians. Yet in true GW fashion, they'll miss the mark entirely.

No, it means they want to highlight that guardians are useful, too. Or are we just ingoring all the other things they say in the articles?

all the talk of new rules is hilarious. Just wait for the must have new unit. New rules that don't force you to buy new units aren't in GW's business plan. And with how old the Eldar line is...don't we have everything already?

 ender502 wrote:
all the talk of new rules is hilarious. Just wait for the must have new unit. New rules that don't force you to buy new units aren't in GW's business plan. And with how old the Eldar line is...don't we have everything already?

I'll go get the ketchup to eat with your hat.

 ender502 wrote:
all the talk of new rules is hilarious. Just wait for the must have new unit. New rules that don't force you to buy new units aren't in GW's business plan. And with how old the Eldar line is...don't we have everything already?

There are several issues with this statement.
A) While Eldar are not expecting any "new" units, almost all the Aspect Warriors are still finecast and in dire need of plastic kits. If GW truly wanted to make some bank, they would release plastic Aspects. Yet no such rumors have surfaced, nor does it look like any new models will be releases for Eldar
B) Out of all the codices released so far, only Death Guard and Marines have received new kit. The rest of the books have just been updates to the rules

 Galef wrote:

 ender502 wrote:
all the talk of new rules is hilarious. Just wait for the must have new unit. New rules that don't force you to buy new units aren't in GW's business plan. And with how old the Eldar line is...don't we have everything already?

There are several issues with this statement.
A) While Eldar are not expecting any "new" units, almost all the Aspect Warriors are still finecast and in dire need of plastic kits. If GW truly wanted to make some bank, they would release plastic Aspect. No such rumors have surfaced
B) Out of all the codices released so far, only Death Guard and Marines have received new kit. The rest of the books have just been updates to the rules

I think that the plastic Aspects are probably coming with the Ynnari. It's a gut feeling but the Ynnari seem to be the "Eldar returning to their old empire".

I would expect some Ynnari specific units, rather than Craftworld based ones.

 Galef wrote:
If GW truly wanted to make some bank, they would release plastic Aspect. No such rumors have surfaced

It's not a question of wanting to make money or not. There are real life limitations on how quickly new miniatures can be designed, manufactured and distributed. GW have obviously concluded that there is more money to be made in using their limited resource to focus on new model ranges; not just Primaris & Deathguard but also Shadespire, the upcoming Necromunda release and whatever comes after those. They also have to balance production & storage of new kits alongside maintaining stock for the existing range, otherwise codex releases will see a worse situation we had at 8E launch where various kits with improved rules suddenly ran out of stock.

New aspect kits will come in time once GW has resources to properly focus on Eldar, just like when they got around to replacing jetbikes & wraithguard.

Vorian wrote:
I would expect some Ynnari specific units, rather than Craftworld based ones.

Me too, why waste the opportunity to have a whole new product line.

Biel-tan is up https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/18/craftworld-focus-biel-tangw-homepage-post-3/

Looks like the picture was right about the Attributes. This one is garbage.

Vorian wrote:
I would expect some Ynnari specific units, rather than Craftworld based ones.

What makes you think it couldn't be both?

Not a whole lot here that's very interesting.

Biel-tan's tactic is what was on the pic. +1 Ld for Aspects and everything can re-roll hits of 1 for shuriken weapons (also there's something called "Kurnous' Bow")

Dire Avengers and Avenger Catapults are cheaper.

2 CP generic stratagem to fall back and then shoot and charge.

3 CP generic stratagem to resurrect an Avatar with d6 wounds if it dies in the Fight phase.

2 CP Biel-tan stratagem to add 2 to charge rolls and re-roll fight hits of 1, or 3 and re-roll all hits if near an Avatar.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Not a whole lot here that's very interesting.

Biel-tan's tactic is what was on the pic. +1 Ld for Aspects and everything can re-roll hits of 1 for shuriken weapons.

Dire Avengers and Avenger Catapults are cheaper.

2 CP generic stratagem to fall back and then shoot and charge.

3 CP generic stratagem to resurrect an Avatar with d6 wounds if it dies in the Fight phase.

2 CP Biel-tan stratagem to add 2 to charge rolls and re-roll fight hits of 1, or 3 and re-roll all hits if near an Avatar.

Just so we're clear:
It really feels like whoever made the picture seems to have been trying to hedge their bets.

They first say "reroll all hit rolls" and then add the "of 1" at the end.

That's the wording of the actual bit.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Not a whole lot here that's very interesting.

Biel-tan's tactic is what was on the pic. +1 Ld for Aspects and everything can re-roll hits of 1 for shuriken weapons.

Dire Avengers and Avenger Catapults are cheaper.

2 CP generic stratagem to fall back and then shoot and charge.

3 CP generic stratagem to resurrect an Avatar with d6 wounds if it dies in the Fight phase.

2 CP Biel-tan stratagem to add 2 to charge rolls and re-roll fight hits of 1, or 3 and re-roll all hits if near an Avatar.

Just so we're clear:
The picture actually said reroll all hits for Shuriken weapons.

No, you can see it on the previous page. It was right. Edit: It missed that the +1 Ld was for Aspects only, but who cares.

So once again, the CW trait is a better choice for a different CW. The Biel-tan attribute seems way better to Saim-Hann jetbikes than Aspect Warriors
At least Dire Avengers are cheaper

I'm officially holding my breath for the Saim-Hann preview tomorrow.

-

"Where Swordwind really comes into its own is with shuriken weaponry. Nearly every Craftworlds unit or vehicle has access to a shuriken weapon of some form or another, and with a near-universal Ballistic Skill of 3+ this essentially amounts to re-rolling a full half of all your missed attacks."

And most of the models that don't benefit are... aspect warriors. Who are supposed to be Biel-Tan's thing.

Yes so far they appear to be 0 for 3 in theming the Attributes.

Iyanden's is only really desirable for huge Guardian blobs, and then I guess some of the FW superheavies.

Ulthwe's is probably the best we've seen so far for everything except huge Guardian blobs.

Biel-tan's is only really that useful for Guardians or Dire Avengers in cheap Wave Serpents, or for Windriders (if those are reasonably priced). Maybe Vypers too. Also it's redundant with Autarchs.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Not a whole lot here that's very interesting.

Biel-tan's tactic is what was on the pic. +1 Ld for Aspects and everything can re-roll hits of 1 for shuriken weapons.

Dire Avengers and Avenger Catapults are cheaper.

2 CP generic stratagem to fall back and then shoot and charge.

3 CP generic stratagem to resurrect an Avatar with d6 wounds if it dies in the Fight phase.

2 CP Biel-tan stratagem to add 2 to charge rolls and re-roll fight hits of 1, or 3 and re-roll all hits if near an Avatar.

Just so we're clear:
The picture actually said reroll all hits for Shuriken weapons.

No, you can see it on the previous page. It was right. Edit: It missed that the +1 Ld was for Aspects only, but who cares.

It was two pages back, actually.

As for "who cares"? When it comes down to it, this might not be a legitimate leak or definitive listing but rather just really good guesses based on what has already been seen.

 Kanluwen wrote:
As for "who cares"? When it comes down to it, this might not be a legitimate leak or definitive listing but rather just really good guesses based on what has already been seen.

If they were predictions that actually ended up being fluffy and good, I would be more inclined to believe they were "good guesses", but the fact that they accurately guessed these completely un-fluffy and seemingly random attributes makes it hard for me to believe these were just guesses.

I think what is important to note about the picture's "guesses" is that while they are pretty accurate, they are also paraphrased.
Beil-tan attribute, for example, only gives +1LD to Aspect Warriors, rather than any unit. An important difference

Given that, my guess would be that the Saim-Hann attribute is more like:
"Units with the <Jetbike> keyword may reroll charge rolls. In addition, any unit with this attribute may ignore the -1 to hit for moving with Heavy Weapons"
If so, that would actually be the first somewhat fluffy attribute, since Saim-Hann is proficient on the move.

-

This is definitely...disappointing. As someone who runs my own Craftworld, I don't use tons of rangers or bikes and thus won't be using Saim-Hann or Alaitoc, so the three real options are the ones shown so far. They're all woefully unfluffy and quite boring. I do hope that the rest of the codex though makes Eldar worth playing.

-They did mention cheaper Dire Avengers = good.
-They mention much better jetbikes? = good.
-Some characters are definitely cheaper = good.

So if we get decent stratagems and point reductions I'll just...pick a Craftworld and roll with it. Biel-Tan was really what I was hoping for, but their trait is pretty crap. I hate re-rolls and I hate re-rolling '1's even more. Such a time wasting mechanic.

chosen_of_khaine wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
As for "who cares"? When it comes down to it, this might not be a legitimate leak or definitive listing but rather just really good guesses based on what has already been seen.

If they were predictions that actually ended up being fluffy and good, I would be more inclined to believe they were "good guesses", but the fact that they accurately guessed these completely un-fluffy and seemingly random attributes makes it hard for me to believe these were just guesses.

Really? You think these were "unfluffy and seemingly random attributes"?
Ulthwe's is fluffed not as a "Feel No Pain" but rather as an Invulnerable Save. It works for the same reason it works for the Iron Hands(cybernetics) and the same reason it works for the Death Guard(disgustingly resilient) and Graia Forge World(tenacious/refusal to retreat).

The Swordwind is supposed to be the Aspect Warriors being motivated/zealous. Hence +1 LD. Add in the warlike nature of the Craftworld(they were one of the more common ones to be attacking Imperial holdings) and you get the baked in Plague Weapon benefit that the Death Guard had.

Iyanden has long been known as stubborn and the fact that they refused to abandon their Craftworld after it was effectively gutted makes that trait make sense as well.


Not saying that there's no chance whatsoever this leak is right--but like I said, there's a chance that it is just really good guesses based on what has already been seen.

 Cream Tea wrote:


And most of the models that don't benefit are... aspect warriors. Who are supposed to be Biel-Tan's thing.

In a sense yes, but, it technically affects 4 out of the 9 Aspect warrior units. (counting the Crimson Hunter and Exarch as essentially the same unit).

But then, on top of it, it affects a hell of a lot of other things in addition to those 4 units.

No, Biel-Tan doesn't give Biel-Tan a baked-in 'Plague Weapon'. It gives non-Biel-Tan forces that use Biel-Tan's attribute 'Plague Weapon'.

As has been posted, the majority of units that don't benefit from it are the units SwordWind is based upon. Aspects. Only Dire Avengers get any real benefit from that. That's why it's terrible for Biel-Tan: sounds good, sounds similar to what they need, but implemented in a way that makes it mostly help non-Biel-Tan forces.

My biggest problem with this is that they are pretty boring. Damm, how lucky have been IG. Their Regiment Doctrines actually offer a substantial difference in gameplay, and how you build your army.

This ones, and the Admech, Chaos, and Space Marines ones? Not so much.

I dont really get the Ulthwe one, back when I still played 40k Ulthwe were known for using black guardians and seer councils. I dont see what makes them any more more resilient then any other CW fluffwise

Kdash wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:


And most of the models that don't benefit are... aspect warriors. Who are supposed to be Biel-Tan's thing.

In a sense yes, but, it technically affects 4 out of the 9 Aspect warrior units. (counting the Crimson Hunter and Exarch as essentially the same unit).

But then, on top of it, it affects a hell of a lot of other things in addition to those 4 units.

"Affects" is pretty weak. I mean, you can count Dark Reapers too if you want since the Exarch can take a shuriken cannon. But this is kind of silly. It's a tiny bonus to all Aspects other than Dire Avengers and Shining Spears, and for Spears it seems unlikely that you'd ever want to rely on this instead of doing something to buff their laser lances too. Certainly you would prefer Ulthwe's trait hands down for every Aspect other than Dire Avengers.

Dionysodorus wrote:

Kdash wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:


And most of the models that don't benefit are... aspect warriors. Who are supposed to be Biel-Tan's thing.

In a sense yes, but, it technically affects 4 out of the 9 Aspect warrior units. (counting the Crimson Hunter and Exarch as essentially the same unit).

But then, on top of it, it affects a hell of a lot of other things in addition to those 4 units.

"Affects" is pretty weak. I mean, you can count Dark Reapers too if you want since the Exarch can take a shuriken cannon. But this is kind of silly. It's a tiny bonus to all Aspects other than Dire Avengers and Shining Spears, and for Spears it seems unlikely that you'd ever want to rely on this instead of doing something to buff their laser lances too. Certainly you would prefer Ulthwe's trait hands down for every Aspect other than Dire Avengers.

Even if the Trait was worded to grant Aspects units +1 Ld and re-rolls of 1 for hit to aspects , would have been way more fluffy than let's buff shurikens weapons.

Right now it looks like a bland choice, ok i built my army and i'm facing XXX let's see wich trait beneifts me more since they are like 100% irrelevant for my army tactics aside a small boon.

P.S: also it's seems Kurnous bow return as a relic..

 ulgurstasta wrote:
I dont really get the Ulthwe one, back when I still played 40k Ulthwe were known for using black guardians and seer councils. I dont see what makes them any more more resilient then any other CW fluffwise

It's fluffed as all of Ulthwe's inhabitants have a measure of psyker ability to the point where they can kinda/sorta draw upon visions of the future rather than "Raaaaaaawr we ate all da bullets!"

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ulgurstasta wrote:
I dont really get the Ulthwe one, back when I still played 40k Ulthwe were known for using black guardians and seer councils. I dont see what makes them any more more resilient then any other CW fluffwise

It's fluffed as all of Ulthwe's inhabitants have a measure of psyker ability to the point where they can kinda/sorta draw upon visions of the future rather than "Raaaaaaawr we ate all da bullets!"

Sure, whatever. You can come up with fluff to justify almost any rule. But it strikes me as a pretty big problem that if you want to run Guardian blobs you should pick Iyanden instead, and if you want to use Wraithguard you should pick Ulthwe.

Lord Perversor wrote:

Right now it looks like a bland choice, ok i built my army and i'm facing XXX let's see wich trait beneifts me more since they are like 100% irrelevant for my army tactics aside a small boon.

Thats exactly what I was trying to say. Thei are totally irrelevant to your tactic, and nearly irrelevant to your army composition, they are just boons.

It's funny how 8th ed has been advertised as edition of "tailor made, unique rules" and 40K now just feels more copy&paste than ever before. Only with lots and lots of confusingly named 'special' and 'thematic' traits.

And there I thought that 3rd ed was bland...

Honestly, I prefer this copy-paste method to prior editions in which every army had more "special" rules than the main rule book.
It may be "bland" be you cannot deny that is a better way to get balance if every army has access to the same rules.
It's not a perfect solution, but it is better than anything I've seen in the last 3-4 editions

Wow... just, wow...

Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

So Biel-Tan's trait does practically nothing for:
Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers (the exarch already has re-roll 1's to hit), Crimson Hunter

And extra 1-2 shuriken pistol hits for:
Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees

An extra 2-4 shuriken catapult hits for:
Dire Avengers, Shining Spears

Surely that trait would be better placed on armies looking to play aggressive with Guardians, Jetbikes & Shuriken Cannon armed vehicles not an army filled with Aspect Warriors...

I understand the reasoning behind the craftworld attributes in that they don't want to shoehorn players into spamming certain units for each craftworld, but the entire point of choosing a craftworld was to theme the army with an obvious unit type. While I doubt there is someone out there who plays an Iyanden vehicle army devoid of wraith units, the craftworld attribute will still give unique benefits if they did. The consequence of this is that the craftworld attributes are so all-encompassing for most units that they don't seem like clear benefits for the supposed theme of that craftworld.

Take Swordwind Biel-Tan as an example. If I were to do an aspect warrior army, I would probably prefer the Ulthwe 6+ FNP trait rather than the Biel Tan +1 Ld for my units, especially if the Avatar continues to provide a fearless bubble.

If the Alaitoc attribute proves to be true I don't imagine seeing an army of rangers but rather an army of dark reapers with warlocks casting conceal.

Well, now we just do what Space Marine players have done for decades: Paint our army as X, but use the rules for Y.
Well played GW, well played

Quite frankly, the main issue with the Eldar index is that everything is stupidly costed. Almost everything needs a price break.

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

I had hopes that certain things will motivate me to finish and give this edition a try. It's not looking well...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Quite frankly, the main issue with the Eldar index is that everything is stupidly costed. Almost everything needs a price break.

Agreed. I was happy to see all the changes to units like Windriders and WKs from 7th to 8th.....but then I saw the points costs. So far I've played 2 games and just put everything on the shelf until the Codex.
Seeing DAs drop in price and knowing Windriders will be "much improved" gives me hope.






Too bad "hope" is the first step on the road to disappointment.
-

Man, that was a sad entry. I guess Admech and Eldar can cry on each others' shoulders.

Looks like -1 to hit is the only attribute that's really going to matter anyway.

...I guess you'll be able to drop a reviving Avatar on your opponent's doorstep with the infiltration stratagem they'll inevitably get. That might be nice.

This trait looks more like what you'd expect Alaitoc to have, +1Ld to represent their devotion to the Path system and being generalists re-roll 1's on Shuricans. Whilst the -1 to hit them they will almost certainly now get seems fluffy, a pemanent -2 on Rangers (who already have a -1 to hit them as standard) would be rather frustrating, especially when Conceal buffs it to -3.

So Ulthwe and Iyanded have each others trait, and Biel-Tan has Alaitoc's trait whilst Alaitocs actual trait is so generic it could be used to demonstrait any Eldar force striking from out of the webway from any of the 3 factions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Quite frankly, the main issue with the Eldar index is that everything is stupidly costed. Almost everything needs a price break.

Totally agree. Pricing out the army I took to ATC in 2016, it costs at least 600 points more to run now. That is a huge difference.

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Wow... just, wow...

Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

So Biel-Tan's trait does practically nothing for:
Fire Dragons, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Dark Reapers (the exarch already has re-roll 1's to hit), Crimson Hunter

And extra 1-2 shuriken pistol hits for:
Striking Scorpions, Howling Banshees

An extra 2-4 shuriken catapult hits for:
Dire Avengers, Shining Spears

Surely that trait would be better placed on armies looking to play aggressive with Guardians, Jetbikes & Shuriken Cannon armed vehicles not an army filled with Aspect Warriors...

I'm calling it now - aspect warriors are legacy and will never be replaced. Aeldari will get new units, but not those.

Here's a thought, I wonder if GW has mandated to their rules team that a trait must be useful in someway to the majority of units in an army? Would explain what we've been seeing for each codex so far.

Unfortunately, this just doesn't work for Craftworld Eldar, where each Craftworld is famous for having the core of it's army built around a choice few units or unit types (Alaitoc being the exception, despite the high number of Outcasts affiliated with it, they don't make up the bulk of the army). Makes me really worried for my Drukhari were <Kabal> <Wych Cult> and <Haemonculus Coven> should be easy to mix as well as theme a full army around.

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Wow... just, wow...

Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

And everyone is screaming and crying about those Guard rules - so being in line with other codexes is better imo.

These is enough flavour in them to be ok and they are less likely to be unbalanced against other Codex blessed armies.

No one wants OP rules again right?

Also the Craftworld traits appear to apply to infantry, vehicles and maybe even flyers - which other codexes did not get!

I'm glad DAs are going down to at most 15ppm. But if the Exarch is still free (and unchanged), going down much further would make them better than they should be. 17 was certainly too high, but a 2W model with a 4++ is thrown in for "free".

 Mr Morden wrote:

And everyone is screaming and crying about those Guard rules - so being in line with other codexes is better imo.

These is enough flavour in them to be ok and they are less likely to be unbalanced against other Codex blessed armies.

No one wants OP rules again right?

Also the Craftworld traits appear to apply to infantry, vehicles and maybe even flyers - which other codexes did not get!

Very good insight here, I agree. Having played jetbikes since 4th ed, I was suddenly labeled TFG just because my chosen theme happened to be amazaballs good in 7th.
I welcome toned down rules.
If the codex comes with a few points decreases along with these attributes, I don't think Eldar will be in a bad place at all

-

 Mr Morden wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Wow... just, wow...

Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

And everyone is screaming and crying about those Guard rules - so being in line with other codexes is better imo.

These is enough flavour in them to be ok and they are less likely to be unbalanced against other Codex blessed armies.

No one wants OP rules again right?

Also the Craftworld traits appear to apply to infantry, vehicles and maybe even flyers - which other codexes did not get!

No, everyone isn't.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Wow... just, wow...

Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

And everyone is screaming and crying about those Guard rules - so being in line with other codexes is better imo.

These is enough flavour in them to be ok and they are less likely to be unbalanced against other Codex blessed armies.

No one wants OP rules again right?

Also the Craftworld traits appear to apply to infantry, vehicles and maybe even flyers - which other codexes did not get!

This. I don't see a problem. Traits aren't supposed to be a major buff to your army, it's supposed to be a minor one that changes how you play. If you take Biel-Tan you can now park an Exarch next to some Dark Reapersso THEY can reroll 1s or something and not have him babysitting Dire Avengers for the reroll 1s. The Ld +1 is also pretty good for forward units like Banshee, Fire Dragons and Scorpions as it makes them slightly better at morale tests which can eat a lot of models over the course of a game, especially T3 ones.

Unless you want really powerful traits and all the Eldar models stay super-expensive to compensate and everyone can go back to rolling their eyes and sighing whenever you put your army on the table like in 7th.

Bharring wrote:
I'm glad DAs are going down to at most 15ppm. But if the Exarch is still free (and unchanged), going down much further would make them better than they should be. 17 was certainly too high, but a 2W model with a 4++ is thrown in for "free".

I agree that the Exarch should not be a free upgrade, especially since unlike Space Marine Sgts they're optional, but 15ppm on DA's would still be ridiculously overcosted, 13 at max.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:
Wow... just, wow...

Was pretty excited after seeing the Imperial Guard flavours but this is just depressing.

And everyone is screaming and crying about those Guard rules - so being in line with other codexes is better imo.

These is enough flavour in them to be ok and they are less likely to be unbalanced against other Codex blessed armies.

No one wants OP rules again right?

Also the Craftworld traits appear to apply to infantry, vehicles and maybe even flyers - which other codexes did not get!

This. I don't see a problem. Traits aren't supposed to be a major buff to your army, it's supposed to be a minor one that changes how you play. If you take Biel-Tan you can now park an Exarch next to some Dark Reapersso THEY can reroll 1s or something and not have him babysitting Dire Avengers for the reroll 1s. The Ld +1 is also pretty good for forward units like Banshee, Fire Dragons and Scorpions as it makes them slightly better at morale tests which can eat a lot of models over the course of a game, especially T3 ones.

Unless you want really powerful traits and all the Eldar models stay super-expensive to compensate and everyone can go back to rolling their eyes and sighing whenever you put your army on the table like in 7th.

You mean Autarchs, and in that example it would be a waste as the Dark Reaper Exarch already gives out re-roll 1's. As for the +1Ld it's also worthless since MSU is the way to run most of the Aspect squads, appropriately costed Dire Avengers might get something out of it as 10 man squads coul become viable, but Swooping Hawks already have that ability, Banshees and Scorpions are so lacking in attack power you might as well not bother and no other units are worth running at high enough numbers.

The biggest problem with these traits is not just how bland they are but that they don't remotely match the Craftworlds they've been given to.

Why don't we wait for the entire codex, before people freak. I have found that if you look at the Trait/Strategim/Relic/Warlord trait they tend to work out fairly well. The sky isn't falling until you have the book in hand. The Legion trait isn't great for Iron Warriors, but their Relic and their Warlord trait are really solid choices.

Look at whole board.

 Sim-Life wrote:

This. I don't see a problem. Traits aren't supposed to be a major buff to your army, it's supposed to be a minor one that changes how you play. If you take Biel-Tan you can now park an Exarch next to some Dark Reapersso THEY can reroll 1s or something and not have him babysitting Dire Avengers for the reroll 1s. The Ld +1 is also pretty good for forward units like Banshee, Fire Dragons and Scorpions as it makes them slightly better at morale tests which can eat a lot of models over the course of a game, especially T3 ones.

Unless you want really powerful traits and all the Eldar models stay super-expensive to compensate and everyone can go back to rolling their eyes and sighing whenever you put your army on the table like in 7th.

I mean, the ship has sailed on this already. Ulthwe's trait is really strong. Alatoic's is probably a bit stronger than that even. So either the units are priced so that those two Craftworlds are overpowered or else Biel-tan is pretty underpowered.

I'm not too worried about the traits, they were never going to be game-changers. Alaitoc is the clear winner and will be the go to tournament trait, I guess. What's more important to me is that they fix our atrocious internal balance.

So far we have confirmation of a buff for Wraithlords and a points drop for Avengers, so hopefully some other units like Banshees, Scorpions, Hawks, Grav-tanks etc will snag similar treatment.

 Prodigalson wrote:
Why don't we wait for the entire codex, before people freak. I have found that if you look at the Trait/Strategim/Relic/Warlord trait they tend to work out fairly well. The sky isn't falling until you have the book in hand. The Legion trait isn't great for Iron Warriors, but their Relic and their Warlord trait are really solid choices.

Look at whole board.

I think this has mostly not been true. The SM codex is all about Ultramarines, with Raven Guard a distant second. Chaos lists are overwhelmingly Alpha Legion. AdMech basically forces you to play Mars.

In defense of the Biel-Tan trait (which does feel anti-climactic), it is fluffy. Biel-Tan is the most militant of the Craftworlds. While, that meant more Aspect followers it includes the general populace as well.

Their primary tactic "the Swordwind" involves swooping in fast in transports and quickly obliterating the opposition in a "Tempest of Blades." That is very descriptive of a hail of shuriken fire.

Aspects get a slight buff (admittedly less offensive), and then the craftworld gets a general/specific buff.

Biel-Tan's re-roll to 1st applies to all shurikans in the entire army. That is a LOT of shots. Yea, it doesn't help aspect warriors that much, but it helps everything in the army be better. War-Walkers, Wraithlords, bikes, every underslung gun on every vehicle. Every pistol carried by every unit.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Vorian wrote:
I would expect some Ynnari specific units, rather than Craftworld based ones.

What makes you think it couldn't be both?

That they released Harlequinns without attaching a random Craftworld release to them

+1LD to Aspects does somewhat encourage bigger units of Aspects (at least in GW's mind), so it can't really be said as "unfluffy" since it does imply "more" Aspects
Iyanden is the most stubborn of CWE, so models should be less likely to run
Ulthwe inhabitants have more psychic foresight and thus can avoid harm

So overall, these traits do actually portray the fluff. They just don't seem to benefit the "units" that are associated with each CW.
I think this speaks volumes of the disconnect between GW and the players. Not so much GW's disconnect, but the players' misinterpretation of GW's intent for play style.

-

Biel Tan's trait should be the never lose more than 1 model due to morale", since they rely the most heavily on aspect warriors.

Ulthwe's trait should be re-roll 1's with Shuriken weapons since Guardians make up the bulk of their military.

Iyanden's ability should be the 6+ feel no pain as it benefits multi-wound models (like Wraith units) most.

---

You know, this stratagem is pretty fun.



Not sure if it is worth 3CP though.

Biel-tan Swordwind is about a quick application of many different tools. Shurikens, blades, las, missiles, etc - each in relatively small amounts, but all of it working together.

The tactic only buffs Shurikens. So only one of the thousand different blades (well, probably 5) are affected. Either it's minor on the few things that have it, or you just use all-Shuriken. Using all-Shuriken is (A) not Biel-Tan's way (that's massed Guardians or Guardian platforms, mostly), and (B) that's 'Killing Blow' style, not 'Thousand Blades'. Massive dakka of one type.

Prodig,
That's the point: it's not that it's bad (probably bad, but not my gripe). It's that it buffs everything except what Biel-Tan relies on. All those things you list? You'll see more in any non-Biel-Tan list (aside from Spirit Hosts).

I wanted a Swordwind attribute that actually buffs Swordwind. Not some Mont'ka reject.

 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Quite frankly, the main issue with the Eldar index is that everything is stupidly costed. Almost everything needs a price break.

Agreed. I was happy to see all the changes to units like Windriders and WKs from 7th to 8th.....but then I saw the points costs. So far I've played 2 games and just put everything on the shelf until the Codex.
Seeing DAs drop in price and knowing Windriders will be "much improved" gives me hope.






Too bad "hope" is the first step on the road to disappointment.
-

Not only does it say that Avengers drop in price, but also that their weapons dropped in price too. So at minimum, thats a 2 point drop in their total price per model. Could be more. Hope it's more, as they're still bad at 15ppm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red_Five wrote:
Biel Tan's trait should be the never lose more than 1 model due to morale", since they rely the most heavily on aspect warriors.

Ulthwe's trait should be re-roll 1's with Shuriken weapons since Guardians make up the bulk of their military.

Iyanden's ability should be the 6+ feel no pain as it benefits multi-wound models (like Wraith units) most.

---

You know, this stratagem is pretty fun.



Not sure if it is worth 3CP though.

Only works in the fight phase, so Avatar can be killed by shooting with no way to resurrect.

Costs 3CP in an army that probably only has 7-9 CP total to start with.

Imperial Guard stratagems often only cost 1 or 2 CP, in an army that can easily startwith 20+ CP.

Imperial Guard's Avatar equivalent (Celestine) can resurrect for free, multiple times, from any source of damage, costs half as much to start with, no CP's required.

Imperium in 8th is already so much worse than all reports of Eldar in 6th/7th. Everything Eldar have, Imperium have as well, only better and cheaper on every level.

Yeah I don't understand why it is limited to the fight phase AND costs 3 CP for something that only gives him 6 wounds back (max).

Wow. Color me wrong on the 4chan 'leak'.

Well the Avatar's a character with less than 10 wounds so can't be targeted, so if you stuck him at the front to be shot at you're either loosing badly or doing it wrong.

Anyone else notice that the Avatar and Celestial shield Stratagems are "Craftworld" stratagems and not Biel-tan/Ulthwe exclusive?

 Galef wrote:
Anyone else notice that the Avatar and Celestial shield Stratagems are "Craftworld" stratagems and not Biel-tan/Ulthwe exclusive?

Yes, they're obviously throwing in some information on the army as a whole in each Craftworld preview to keep up interest.

Well... my primary list is currently based around a ton of Jetbikes, Vypers, and Wave Serpents with Shuriken cannons... so naturally, they're made better by the Biel-Tan attribute! I'm not going to argue with it, as I specifically created a custom craftworld so I can run whatever rules are a good fit for the list I want to play on a given day, but it just seems so freaking weird.

Also, the Cannon re-roll means that I no longer need to give my Farseer Guide+Doom and can switch him to Fortune+Doom (or something else, depending on how the new powers shake out).

The lack of a price break on guardians is deeply disappointing. A lot of 8th ed is extremely troops-driven, both in rewards for CP and the relative power of high model count low point units.

Most of the competitive armies are driven by access to good, cheap troops. AM have it, chaos has it and while SM is more dubious in that regard, Girlyman not only brings his own command points to compensate, but also flips the math so much it's out of line with every other aura in the game.

So without guardians, our hopes really have to come to Dire Avengers and Rangers. I think dire avengers won't qualify as 'good' until they see something like 10 points per model, which seems unlikely (even though they'd still be worse than brimstones, conscripts, noise marines and cultists). They'll probably be passable at 12, but certainly not amazing.

Rangers are my bigger hope. I think if they got to 13-15 ppm (25%-30% decrease, not unheard of), we could get some real use out of them. They are durable for elves, would be cheap-ish due to their low numbers and counter a real issue in the meta, which is the power of characters. They would be solid for removing commissars, maelific lords and, if we're talking 3-6 units of them, a genuine threat to more potent characters. They wouldn't earn back their points in shooting very often, but you'd be taking them for command points and their ability to appear on and then camp objectives.

Craftworld traits aside...the revamped psychic powers and the price adjustments will probably make or break the army. For instance, if Rangers/Scouts remain obscenely expensive, they'll never be fielded, etc.

While none of the stuff so far blows my skirt up, I'll be more than happy to wait for the Codex and I'll appreciate any boost they get. I love my Eldar and won't stop playing them, but it's awfully tough right now.

After seeing the last 2, Iyanden is looking better Since I run wraithlords I will like the non degrading stat line. I may also bump the size of my foot wraithguard with axe and shield too.

As a pseudo-Biel-Tan player, the Biel-Tan bonus is not at all what I had been hoping for - the shuriken buff is more for Guardians than Aspects, and Aspects didn't really need +1 Ld. Aspects simply should have re-rolled ALL 1s.

Hilariously, it seems like Biel-Tan will be the best craftworld for a Saim-Haan army.

I really wanted to try Eldar as I loved the original models back in the days, but this feels like because a specific build of Eldar was dominating, they've beaten it with the nerf stick/bat/tree/mini-nuke until it's 'acceptable' to the other players.

This is the issue with any game that involves different sides, someone will find a way to dominate with an army, then that will get nerfed to hell, while the other sides get buffs. Then that army is the weakest around, and gets buffs, and the latest dominating army gets nerfed. It's this massive merry-go-round.

Bharring wrote:
No, Biel-Tan doesn't give Biel-Tan a baked-in 'Plague Weapon'. It gives non-Biel-Tan forces that use Biel-Tan's attribute 'Plague Weapon'.

As has been posted, the majority of units that don't benefit from it are the units SwordWind is based upon. Aspects. Only Dire Avengers get any real benefit from that. That's why it's terrible for Biel-Tan: sounds good, sounds similar to what they need, but implemented in a way that makes it mostly help non-Biel-Tan forces.

It's almost as if...

they were trying to get players away from running monotheme armies with everything min-maxed to supporting that theme,

Alcibiades wrote:

Bharring wrote:
No, Biel-Tan doesn't give Biel-Tan a baked-in 'Plague Weapon'. It gives non-Biel-Tan forces that use Biel-Tan's attribute 'Plague Weapon'.

As has been posted, the majority of units that don't benefit from it are the units SwordWind is based upon. Aspects. Only Dire Avengers get any real benefit from that. That's why it's terrible for Biel-Tan: sounds good, sounds similar to what they need, but implemented in a way that makes it mostly help non-Biel-Tan forces.

It's almost as if...

they were trying to get players away from running monotheme armies with everything min-maxed to supporting that theme,

This seems like a weird reaction to GW revealing a trait which is only of significant benefit to a handful of units. Like, I understand why you're responding to the person's post this way, but you probably should have stopped to realize that the reason the trait doesn't work well for the traditional Biel-tan theme is that it's bizarrely focused on an even narrower theme.

It’s almost as if they’re bound to fail miserably if that’s their intent. They’re still going to end up with the same themes, just used under different craftworld names that only matter on paper. The entire intent of sub factions to different armies is to promote more specific themes in the first place, otherwise there would be no craftworlds, legions, chapters, etc.

Asurman and Avatar escorting avengers across the field... Biel-Tan?

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Prodigalson wrote:
Why don't we wait for the entire codex, before people freak. I have found that if you look at the Trait/Strategim/Relic/Warlord trait they tend to work out fairly well. The sky isn't falling until you have the book in hand. The Legion trait isn't great for Iron Warriors, but their Relic and their Warlord trait are really solid choices.

Look at whole board.

I think this has mostly not been true. The SM codex is all about Ultramarines, with Raven Guard a distant second. Chaos lists are overwhelmingly Alpha Legion. AdMech basically forces you to play Mars.

Too much net listing on the brain. Abaddon is no joke. Neither is a DP that can't be picked out with a 2+ and healing 1 wound a turn.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Can’t take jet bikes “yet”...

It will happen when Wraithguard can take jetbikes, and Wraithlords get very big jetbikes, and we get rules for Craftworld Saim-Iyan.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Asurman and Avatar escorting avengers across the field... Biel-Tan?

Yes, this! I have been working around with lists all morning (as much as I can, not knowing the new avenger costs). I want to run this across the board, and have a squad of dark reapers walking up with them, getting that 5++ from asurman. Toss in a warlock to give them all conceal, and (while expensive) I think it could be a fun gunline list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:


It will happen when Wraithguard can take jetbikes, and Wraithlords get very big jetbikes, and we get rules for Craftworld Saim-Iyan.

Let me know once the Iyan-Tan list comes out with aspect wraiths

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As a pseudo-Biel-Tan player, the Biel-Tan bonus is not at all what I had been hoping for - the shuriken buff is more for Guardians than Aspects, and Aspects didn't really need +1 Ld. Aspects simply should have re-rolled ALL 1s.

And yet you can add 3 to a charge and reroll all hits if you're near an avatar.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As a pseudo-Biel-Tan player, the Biel-Tan bonus is not at all what I had been hoping for - the shuriken buff is more for Guardians than Aspects, and Aspects didn't really need +1 Ld. Aspects simply should have re-rolled ALL 1s.

And yet you can add 3 to a charge and reroll all hits if you're near an avatar.

And just by nature of being within range of an avatar, you can reroll the dice on that charge too. That gives a really nice threat range.

 Imateria wrote:
Here's a thought, I wonder if GW has mandated to their rules team that a trait must be useful in someway to the majority of units in an army?

The Ulthwe trait is universal and as such is probably one of the better ones. 16.67% more staying power for your entire army is nice and it works on and against everyone.

Iyanden benefits every unit with a degrading statline and also benefits most infantry to some extent. Not a bad choice.

Biel Tan is definitely the weakest we have seen so far.

Saim Han looks to be pretty weak too if it only benefits jetbikes. This could go up to middling if it turns out other units benefit from mobile heavy weapons.

Alaitoc will be dependent on what units benefit. If it is just infantry it will be OK. If it is all units (as hinted above) then it will be awesome and pretty much the clear winner.

 doctortom wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Can’t take jet bikes “yet”...

It will happen when Wraithguard can take jetbikes, and Wraithlords get very big jetbikes, and we get rules for Craftworld Saim-Iyan.

Did someone say Wraithlords on jetbikes?

The problem with the Biel-Tan attribute making these mono-theme armies less monotheme is that:
(1) Swordwind armies are *already* not monotheme. There are some non-Swordwind Aspect armies that spam one Aspect (like Spiders last edition), but those aren't Swordwind. And, in this edition, spamming any one aspect would fall apart easily.
(2) To use it, you need to spam Shurikens.

So the argument is they're using the attribute to make lists that don't spam not spam, and do that by making them spam?

 Galef wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Can’t take jet bikes “yet”...

It will happen when Wraithguard can take jetbikes, and Wraithlords get very big jetbikes, and we get rules for Craftworld Saim-Iyan.

Did someone say Wraithlords on jetbikes?

Spoiler:

Enjoy an exalt! That is hilarious and frightening at the same time. Wraithlords on new Vyperish bike and Wraithknights on Bright Stallions!

Oh the joys

Bharring wrote:
The problem with the Biel-Tan attribute making these mono-theme armies less monotheme is that:
(1) Swordwind armies are *already* not monotheme. There are some non-Swordwind Aspect armies that spam one Aspect (like Spiders last edition), but those aren't Swordwind. And, in this edition, spamming any one aspect would fall apart easily.
(2) To use it, you need to spam Shurikens.

So the argument is they're using the attribute to make lists that don't spam not spam, and do that by making them spam?

Where in the trait does it state a minimum number of shuriken based units in the army is required?

By "to use it", I meant to get measureable benefit out of it.

If the only shurikens are the pistols and DAs, and half the DAs are hanging out with an Autarch anyways, you're not getting much of anything out of it. Might as well use Uthwe or Alaitoc.

Which kinda works for me. I have an Uthwe Swordwind force anyways...

Alcibiades wrote:

Bharring wrote:
No, Biel-Tan doesn't give Biel-Tan a baked-in 'Plague Weapon'. It gives non-Biel-Tan forces that use Biel-Tan's attribute 'Plague Weapon'.

As has been posted, the majority of units that don't benefit from it are the units SwordWind is based upon. Aspects. Only Dire Avengers get any real benefit from that. That's why it's terrible for Biel-Tan: sounds good, sounds similar to what they need, but implemented in a way that makes it mostly help non-Biel-Tan forces.

It's almost as if...

they were trying to get players away from running monotheme armies with everything min-maxed to supporting that theme,

You're claiming that GW released rules for each Craftworld to discourage themed armies.

pm713 wrote:

You're claiming that GW released rules for each Craftworld to discourage themed armies.

Well, they did turn Raven Guard into Devastator-based siege armies while light-footed Death Guard speed across the table as agile as any Footdar army, all the while leaving White Scars dumbfounded at the hit-and-run and rapid re-deployment magic of Ultramarines and Tallarns, which they can never hope to match.

So there is that.

seems to me actually that these traits of all the stuff out so far suit a bit of a combined arms

e.g. take the trait for detachment A that suit x units
take trait for detachment B that suit y units

Wonderwolf wrote:
Well, they did turn Raven Guard into Devastator-based siege armies while light-footed Death Guard speed across the table as agile as any Footdar army, all the while leaving White Scars dumbfounded at the hit-and-run and rapid re-deployment magic of Ultramarines and Tallarns, which they can never hope to match.

My greatest regret this evening is that I cannot exalt this post more than once!

Wonderwolf wrote:

pm713 wrote:

You're claiming that GW released rules for each Craftworld to discourage themed armies.

Well, they did turn Raven Guard into Devastator-based siege armies while light-footed Death Guard speed across the table as agile as any Footdar army, all the while leaving White Scars dumbfounded at the hit-and-run and rapid re-deployment magic of Ultramarines and Tallarns, which they can never hope to match.

So there is that.

The funny part about the Raven Guard is actually it turned them closer to what they have been described as fluffwise. The "lulz assault mareenz" bit never really fit their MO.

 Latro_ wrote:
seems to me actually that these traits of all the stuff out so far suit a bit of a combined arms

e.g. take the trait for detachment A that suit x units
take trait for detachment B that suit y units

This, to be honest, has a ring of truth to it. Especially as they have now made at least one HQ choice significantly cheaper in the Spiritseer. This makes having multiple detachments easier and cheaper.

Having multiple craftworlds in one army is also very fluffy, for a Ynnari force. So perhaps they are trying to push more people into playing Ynnari.

Problem is, a Ynnari character (at the moment) breaks the traits in a detachment, and you're limited to 3 detachments. However, if they add a rule that lets a ynnari HQ not break battleforged...

You blow up our damn craftworld and then give us the shaft like its no body's business?

In all honestly I'm not really upset its just disapointing like you would think beiltan would get like "+2 or+3 in move distance on advances" this would support the sword wind idea or "1+ S for aspect warriors" because they are the most close combaty of all the eldar. Idk its kinda sad. I do like dire avengers though they are my favorite aspect. Still sad though....

If they get Dire Avengers appropriately priced, would they be good enough to make up the bulk of a Biel-Tan Force and have it work decently enough?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If they get Dire Avengers appropriately priced, would they be good enough to make up the bulk of a Biel-Tan Force and have it work decently enough?

Sure, if Dire Avengers become something like 10 or 11 points they'll be decent. The Biel-tan Attribute means that 10 point Avengers would only be a little less efficient than Guardians when shooting (though of course Guardians could benefit from an Autarch or the Ulthwe stratagem or Guide, or from the Biel-tan Attribute even). Shuriken Catapults are actually very nice general-purpose weapons. So you load up 6 squads of Avengers in 3 cheap Shuriken Cannon Serpents, and that's all of the Troops you need for 2 Battalions for a little over 700 points. You probably don't want an Autarch if you're Biel-tan, so you take a Farseer and 2 Spiritseers and something else for a little over 200 points probably. Then you have 1000 points to fill out with whatever you want, though admittedly you've pretty much run out of things that you'd want to have be Biel-tan.

Now, if you want them on foot then, no, the Biel-tan list is always going to be far worse than Alatoic or Ulthwe unless they have an absolutely ridiculous warlord trait or relic.

But yeah, ultimately the point costs are going to be what make or break different list archetypes.

Wonderwolf wrote:

all the while leaving White Scars dumbfounded at the hit-and-run and rapid re-deployment magic of Ultramarines and Tallarns, which they can never hope to match.

The White Scars who can still Hit and Run, they just get to Charge again rather than shoot. So you (hilariously) steal the Raven Guard's old shtick of Jump Packs. Shoot and Charge, then Fall Back, shoot and charge again.

OP updated.

From some of the posts I am reading people seem to be misinterpreting the fluff when they say some of these are unfluffy or don't make sense.

Biel-tan for example is known for having a lot of Aspect warriors. They are not known for having superior aspect warriors so this may be why they only get a +1 LD which is still good. Not saying the attributes are perfect but I think people should read up on the fluff first a bit more as their impression of it differs to mine.

Also the point has been made already but we haven't seen all the relics or the warlord traits yet and these with what we have seen already make up the entire rules for a given Craftworld. In actuality we have seen only half of each Craftworld, the attribute and a stratagem so maybe not be so salty just yet until we have seen everything?

Well, that's the heart of the disappointment for me - but it was what I was expecting.

I wanted GW to take a much indepth approach to army building with various IG regiments or Eldar Craftworlds or Tyranid Hive Fleets, etc. The "use the codex...here's your trait" does nothing to promote a different feel to an army. It might adjust your playstyle slightly or make you favour one unit over the others, but I was really hoping more effort would be put into creating new army lists.

I'd be fine if a Craftworld list said "here are the units you can take" and certain units were unavailable to certain Craftworlds etc. Likewise if Iyanden gets Wraithguard as troops, or if Ulthwe could take fewer Aspects or heavy vehicles, but had access to a Seer Council that the other Craftworlds did not, etc. I was really hoping for an actual change to the army structure. I figured it wouldn't happen because it hasn't in the other codices, but I feel GW has missed a big opportunity here to finally go back to some real identity in an army. I wanted to see different Craftworlds have stronger traits, balanced out by losing access to certain things. So you'd actually feel a difference playing a Saim-Hann host or an Ulthwe Strike Force. As now...you won't with the exception of a minor buff.

Sadly, I'm terribly aware that an army list which doesn't allow X unit = GW can't sell you that model/unit.

The Biel Tan attribute really isn't that bad. It might not be great if you want to run a pure Aspect army but I think it's a misconception that Biel-Tan = only Aspect Warriors. Of course you can play that way but a true Swordwind force is simply based around a core of Aspect Warriors and supported by a smattering of Guardian and vehicle units. Units such as Windriders and Vypers (which can of course be loaded out with Shruiken weaponry to your heart's content) synergise perfectly with the mechanised Swordwind style of play.

Ulthwe and Biel Tan have always been the more vanilla Craftworlds in that they deviate the least from the standard Craftworld mode of play. Ulthwe has slightly more emphasis on psykers and Guardian/support units whereas Biel Tan has slightly more emphasis on Aspects. But you could build a balanced force that could just as easily represent one as the other.

 Korlandril wrote:
OP updated.

From some of the posts I am reading people seem to be misinterpreting the fluff when they say some of these are unfluffy or don't make sense.

Biel-tan for example is known for having a lot of Aspect warriors. They are not known for having superior aspect warriors so this may be why they only get a +1 LD which is still good. Not saying the attributes are perfect but I think people should read up on the fluff first a bit more as their impression of it differs to mine.

Also the point has been made already but we haven't seen all the relics or the warlord traits yet and these with what we have seen already make up the entire rules for a given Craftworld. In actuality we have seen only half of each Craftworld, the attribute and a stratagem so maybe not be so salty just yet until we have seen everything?

They are also known for using the likes of Autarch's and The Avatar. Guess what happens if you make use of these units? Biel-Tan's already underwhelming trait becomes obsolete. Nobody is getting excited about +1Ld in this edition.

As for having more of but not better aspect warriors, you could say the same things about many other traits in place for other armies but it doesn't stop them receiving some nice thematic traits. As things stand Biel-Tan's trait is very poor for an Aspect Warrior based army and fairly pointless for one supported by an Autarch/The Avatar, hence the disappointment.

Thats not to say i was after something overpowered, I always build my lists with a theme and regularly hamstring myself to stick to it. I'm simply underwhelmed by what has been provided and i'll not be using it unless their Warlord Trait/Relic are something pretty special or interesting.

 Elbows wrote:
I wanted GW to take a much indepth approach to army building with various IG regiments or Eldar Craftworlds or Tyranid Hive Fleets, etc. The "use the codex...here's your trait" does nothing to promote a different feel to an army. It might adjust your playstyle slightly or make you favour one unit over the others, but I was really hoping more effort would be put into creating new army lists.

Do we know that the warlord traits aren't going to make certain units troops yet?

Sadly, I'm terribly aware that an army list which doesn't allow X unit = GW can't sell you that model/unit.

This may or may not be part of the reason but the fact is they already opened up these armies. If GW restricts again they would invalidate people's collections potentially. I think more freedom is great you can run your army how you want.

I don't and struggle to see much of a problem in this, unless you want to control other people's collections which isn't going to happen. Focus on the things you have control over like what you collect and who you play and you can have a great deal of enjoyment from the hobby.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

They are also known for using the likes of Autarch's and The Avatar. Guess what happens if you make use of these units? Biel-Tan's already underwhelming trait becomes obsolete. Nobody is getting excited about +1Ld in this edition.

As for having more of but not better aspect warriors, you could say the same things about many other traits in place for other armies but it doesn't stop them some nice thematic traits. As things stand Biel-Tan's trait is very poor for an Aspect Warrior based army and fairly pointless for one supported by an Autarch/The Avatar,i understand the disappointment.

Look at it another way...you no longer need pay an Autarch tax to chaperone certain units and can instead spend those points on Asurmen to support two squads of Dire Avengers (assuming he retains his special ability).

I have always found it a bit awkward incorporating the Avatar into a mechanised Swordwind force. He might work a bit better in a footdar force but that doesn't really fit the Swordwind ethos.

+1 Ld might be a bit 'meh' but it de-risks an Aspect heavy list from the vagaries of the dice. It might not be game winning but it can certainly prevent a game losing roll.

If that's the case, ALL Biel-Tan Aspect Warriors should have No Fear, automatically pass morale tests.

I've been taking a second look at the "re-roll all 1's for shuriken weaponry"... while the Autarch does give a better version of this, it is only within his bubble and you have to pay for him in your list. Also doesn't work on vehicle he is riding in, etc.

I wonder how much use this can actually get in a list.

 Enigma of the Absolute wrote:

 DivineVisitor wrote:

They are also known for using the likes of Autarch's and The Avatar. Guess what happens if you make use of these units? Biel-Tan's already underwhelming trait becomes obsolete. Nobody is getting excited about +1Ld in this edition.

As for having more of but not better aspect warriors, you could say the same things about many other traits in place for other armies but it doesn't stop them some nice thematic traits. As things stand Biel-Tan's trait is very poor for an Aspect Warrior based army and fairly pointless for one supported by an Autarch/The Avatar,i understand the disappointment.

Look at it another way...you no longer need pay an Autarch tax to chaperone certain units and can instead spend those points on Asurmen to support two squads of Dire Avengers (assuming he retains his special ability).

I have always found it a bit awkward incorporating the Avatar into a mechanised Swordwind force. He might work a bit better in a footdar force but that doesn't really fit the Swordwind ethos.

+1 Ld might be a bit 'meh' but it de-risks an Aspect heavy list from the vagaries of the dice. It might not be game winning but it can certainly prevent a game losing roll.

Sorry but i disagree, keeping in mind im specifically talking about an Aspect Warrior heavy army which i had hopes for being better represented by Biel-Tan. I for one was not bringing an Autarch because i needed more reliable Shuriken weaponry, He's brought in for the versatility of providing re-roll 1's for all shooting and combat, for that he is still needed.

And when you have The Avatar providing a 24 inch diameter bubble centered on him which allows any unit in range to ignore morale +1 Ld is very rarely going to come into play. I have yet to lose a model to morale in the games i've played.

On the occasion where morale could come up an Aspect Warrior heavy army would be better off with the Ulthwe or Alaitoc trait which are likely to keep an extra model alive, thus lowering any subsequent morale test you would be required to be take.

Biel-tan isn't awful if you're only ever bringing shuriken weapons. An Autarch has to buff a huge number of units to be worth his points for the aura alone.

The big drawback to it is just that it does very little to nothing for most units. Biel-tan is a perfectly solid choice for a detachment with only cheap Serpents and Guardians/Avengers. If there's a generic deep strike stratagem then a really good addition to any other Eldar list would be a Biel-tan Battalion with 2 non-Autarch HQs, a Serpent with 2 small units of Dire Avengers inside, and then a deep-striking unit of Guardians. This is ~400 points for 2 net CP and some really solid firepower and psychic support. Without such a stratagem it's a little harder to find a good third Troops choice unless you want to spring for another Serpent.

I doubt the Attribute makes sense for Windriders and light vehicles, though. These need something to help them not get blown to pieces turn 1. Barring massive changes, Windriders are still going to be two-wound T4 models without an invulnerable save. They're a prime target and you need to harden them. But it's not like the trait is doing nothing for you here.

It's just that you absolutely need another detachment for the rest of your army, especially any anti-tank. It's a very strange Attribute which is only actually a big deal for probably 3 units in the entire codex.

This thread is funny. Like every other thread nobody is happy until the stratagems are busted out. Seriously, it's the stratagems in every book that take things to the next level. Most traits from any of the books so far are not that great barring a select few.

Question: Does the Biel-Tan sword wind rule apply to all shuriken weapons or just aspect warriors wielding them? because from my understanding it only applies to Aspect warriors wielding shuriken weapons. If it applies to all shuriken based weapons then I think its the best rule since sliced bread but if it isn't then I'm sad.

 Eldrad wrote:
Question: Does the Biel-Tan sword wind rule apply to all shuriken weapons or just aspect warriors wielding them? because from my understanding it only applies to Aspect warriors wielding shuriken weapons. If it applies to all shuriken based weapons then I think its the best rule since sliced bread but if it isn't then I'm sad.

Where Swordwind really comes into its own is with shuriken weaponry. Nearly every Craftworlds unit or vehicle has access to a shuriken weapon of some form or another,

Red Corsair wrote:This thread is funny. Like every other thread nobody is happy until the stratagems are busted out. Seriously, it's the stratagems in every book that take things to the next level. Most traits from any of the books so far are not that great barring a select few.

For Imperial Guard, stratagems make a lot of difference. This is because they can easily get 15-25 CP's, and burn through 3 or 4 stratagems every turn.

Eldar... I dunno. I think the most I've gotten in my random list theory builds is 9 points total, and the list was very minmax and not very good. 7 or 8 is probably the more common end result, if not more like 5 or 6. Depends on if people bother with troops in their lists (which might become more useful in the codex with points drops etc).

Which means Eldar can use 3 or 4 stratagems PER GAME. Compared to IG using that many every turn.

Stratagems make a lot more of a difference to an IG army. For Eldar, they're just a novelty. Especially if they're all like that Avatar one, which is pretty situational and very expensive.

Eldrad wrote:Question: Does the Biel-Tan sword wind rule apply to all shuriken weapons or just aspect warriors wielding them? because from my understanding it only applies to Aspect warriors wielding shuriken weapons. If it applies to all shuriken based weapons then I think its the best rule since sliced bread but if it isn't then I'm sad.

All Shuriken weapons. Every single one. Which makes it interesting. Will take some testing and mathammer etc to find out how useful it actually is. Might be garbage, might be deadly. Hard to say. I currently tend to pick shuriken cannons on everything that can take them, as it's the cheapest option and lets you move still. With some dire avengers in the mix...

 Red Corsair wrote:
This thread is funny. Like every other thread nobody is happy until the stratagems are busted out. Seriously, it's the stratagems in every book that take things to the next level. Most traits from any of the books so far are not that great barring a select few.

I'm not complaining about the power level (maybe the difference in power level between them internally), but the fluff mismatch. The worst one is that Biel-Tan hardly encourages you to play aspects at all, when they're the most prolific users of them in the fluff. Meanwhile Iyanden, with few living inhabitants left, gets a rule encouraging them to take huge blob units? Ulthwé is about Guardians and psykers, but you wouldn't guess it from the trait.

It's not all bad though, Biel-Tan buffs Dire Avengers, which is fitting. More leadership for aspects is fluffy, if not very useful. Iyanden's less degenerating stats is fluffy. On the whole, though, these traits aren't conducive to each craftworld's traditional army composition.

Biggest disappointment for me in the treatment of Biel Tan (as we have so far seen) is the lack of any real rule that would support the fracture that just occurred. They should be pissed as all hell (remember they were the most warlike to begin with....now break their home......). Give me an expansion of the fluff in a meaningful way on the table top rather than just the same old Biel tan.

What if the trait does represent the fracture? Perhaps Ynarri have become the predominantly Aspect force. Plastics when they get a codex etc.

Goes on sale Friday, right? Figured we would have some leaks today/tomorrow...

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Goes on sale Friday, right? Figured we would have some leaks today/tomorrow...

Pre-order is Friday, realistically leaks will appear early next week

 Red Corsair wrote:
This thread is funny. Like every other thread nobody is happy until the stratagems are busted out. Seriously, it's the stratagems in every book that take things to the next level. Most traits from any of the books so far are not that great barring a select few.

Eh.. Most traits are garbage, but the good ones are usually broken great.
Stratagems... mostly take them or leave them, don't really care.

The ones they're showing off for eldar are amazingly bad. Or like the Court of the Young King, meh and contrary to any established fluff. The Court are Exarchs escorting the avatar. Not any old pack of aspect warriors that happen to have a sergeant can charge faster as if they were orks painted red.

But that's the only thing so far that actually supports the Biel Tan emphasis on Aspects. Everything else is, yeah, take whatever. It's fine. [And probably more a guardian army than Ulthwe, since the 6++ they get matters more to expensive stuff.


Though I'd still take Iyanden so far as traits go.


Amused by the offhand mention of avengers and their cats being cheaper, while being pictured next to a stratagem that works with anything

I agree with the Red Corsair, there’s way too much hyperbole in this thread. It seems that unless something is OP, it’s always considered “Garbage.”

It’s no surprise to me that the new Eldar codex hasn’t given tonnes of free buffs. The amount of whining about Eldar as an army in 7th has clearly had an influence on the design team, and while they haven’t nerfed them completely, they have tried to balance things out a little.

 General Kroll wrote:
I agree with the Red Corsair, there’s way too much hyperbole in this thread. It seems that unless something is OP, it’s always considered “Garbage.”

It’s no surprise to me that the new Eldar codex hasn’t given tonnes of free buffs. The amount of whining about Eldar as an army in 7th has clearly had an influence on the design team, and while they haven’t nerfed them completely, they have tried to balance things out a little.

Then you and Red Corsair havn't been paying much attention. In and of themselves the traits shown off so far aren't bad, in fact on the right army builds they can be verry good, the problem that most of us are complaining about is that the traits don't particularly fit the fluff of the Craftworlds they are being paired with in a way that makes realistic sense. I mean Iyanden having a trait that favours large blobs of Guardians is moronic, that trait is good but better characterises Ulthwe or Alaitoc.

And as for Strategems Red Corsair will probably be proved to be very wrong, because unless our troops choices have had a massive points drop on all of them we wont be using them often, which means command points will be in short supply even with the Autarchs ability to get some back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Goes on sale Friday, right? Figured we would have some leaks today/tomorrow...

Pre-order is Friday, realistically leaks will appear early next week

Saturday, it's always a Saturday.

Niiru wrote:
Eldar... I dunno. I think the most I've gotten in my random list theory builds is 9 points total, and the list was very minmax and not very good. 7 or 8 is probably the more common end result, if not more like 5 or 6. Depends on if people bother with troops in their lists (which might become more useful in the codex with points drops etc).

Seriously. It's hard to come up with an Eldar list that has a decent amount of CP, and we've already confirmed Guardians aren't dropping in points so I don't see that changing much unless the Dire Avenger point swing is massive.

 Imateria wrote:

And as for Strategems Red Corsair will probably be proved to be very wrong, because unless our troops choices have had a massive points drop on all of them we wont be using them often, which means command points will be in short supply even with the Autarchs ability to get some back.

I don't think this is quite right. It's very easy for an Eldar army to get 10 CP if it wants it, now that they have a worthwhile cheap HQ in the Spiritseer. You have your main Battalion, then you have a 1 CP Detachment, and then you pick up a 195 point Battalion consisting of 2 Spiritseers and 3 small squads of Kabalite Warriors that you're going to use to screen and hold backfield objectives. Even if you don't want to use Craftworld Troops at all this is an easy 8. That's about what most other armies are looking at from detachments. What really puts Imperium over the top is that Guilliman provides +3 and then +50%, or Guard can get 1 for every 3 stratagems the other player uses and then +50%.

Quark wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Eldar... I dunno. I think the most I've gotten in my random list theory builds is 9 points total, and the list was very minmax and not very good. 7 or 8 is probably the more common end result, if not more like 5 or 6. Depends on if people bother with troops in their lists (which might become more useful in the codex with points drops etc).

Seriously. It's hard to come up with an Eldar list that has a decent amount of CP, and we've already confirmed Guardians aren't dropping in points so I don't see that changing much unless the Dire Avenger point swing is massive.

Apart from the Guard and many people consider that this codex is the problem at the moment are the elder radically different from other codex or even Index armies in this regard.

Given that the Traits/ attributes etc should NOT be too powerful when compared to other codexes (or looking at the power boost over non Codex armies) then the options for the rules team were limited but perhaps they should have thought about which Craftworld has which trait more.

 Imateria wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I agree with the Red Corsair, there’s way too much hyperbole in this thread. It seems that unless something is OP, it’s always considered “Garbage.”

It’s no surprise to me that the new Eldar codex hasn’t given tonnes of free buffs. The amount of whining about Eldar as an army in 7th has clearly had an influence on the design team, and while they haven’t nerfed them completely, they have tried to balance things out a little.

Then you and Red Corsair havn't been paying much attention. In and of themselves the traits shown off so far aren't bad, in fact on the right army builds they can be verry good, the problem that most of us are complaining about is that the traits don't particularly fit the fluff of the Craftworlds they are being paired with in a way that makes realistic sense. I mean Iyanden having a trait that favours large blobs of Guardians is moronic, that trait is good but better characterises Ulthwe or Alaitoc.

And as for Strategems Red Corsair will probably be proved to be very wrong, because unless our troops choices have had a massive points drop on all of them we wont be using them often, which means command points will be in short supply even with the Autarchs ability to get some back.

Nope, I’ve been paying attention and fully understand the concerns you have raised about the traits. I just don’t agree. In a competitive sense, the traits could be utilised to greater affect for different units than those intended. However, that doesn’t make them unfluffy, or indeed moronic (there we go with that hyperbole again)

The Iyanden trait, combined with their relic, makes their wrait units tougher, even if it in a hyper competitive meta it won’t make a huge difference.
The Ulthwé trait, again gives a sense of psychic support in that it’s basically quasi fortune.
The Biel Tan trait specifically affects their Aspect warriors, while at the same time showing that their militia is likely some of the best trained.

The leaked Samm Hain and Alaitoc traits also seem pretty fluffy too.

To me the traits are a little overly simplistic, and that’s why in some cases they could be used in a different way than intended. But I think they are like that for a reason. It’s far easier to balance the game if you keep things simple. Guard seems to have bucked the trend so far and over stepped the power mark a little.

As for strategems, they can still add plenty of flavour, even if you’re not using a dozen of them in a game.

Part of the Biel Tan trait affects their Aspect Warriors. The other part does nothing or very little for most Aspect Warriors.
If you wanted a rule for better militia then it would be under Ulthwe because they actually have that rather than FNP.

pm713 wrote:
Part of the Biel Tan trait affects their Aspect Warriors. The other part does nothing or very little for most Aspect Warriors.
If you wanted a rule for better militia then it would be under Ulthwe because they actually have that rather than FNP.

Didn't they say that Black Guardians is a Stratagem for Ulthwe?

I think that's a pretty nice setup personally.

Same with the Craftworld trait. It's less "FNP" and more "Fate Roll"-ish .

About using Asurmen. I hope they specifically allow Phoenix Lords in <Craftworld> detatchments.

It's easy to miss, but the Phoenix Lords do not have <Craftworld> (so Asurmen cannot be Biel-Tan, or anything else).

I hope they keep it that way (the Phoenix Lords aren't like Autarchs and Farseers - they belong to the Asurayni not the Craftworld). But I hope they specify they can be part of <Craftworld> detatchments. That way, they don't stop you from playing Uthwe or Biel-Tan led by one, but they also don't get a trait they shouldn't get.

Wouldn't be the end of the world if they didn't.

Bharring wrote:
About using Asurmen. I hope they specifically allow Phoenix Lords in <Craftworld> detatchments.

It's easy to miss, but the Phoenix Lords do not have <Craftworld> (so Asurmen cannot be Biel-Tan, or anything else).

I hope they keep it that way (the Phoenix Lords aren't like Autarchs and Farseers - they belong to the Asurayni not the Craftworld). But I hope they specify they can be part of <Craftworld> detatchments. That way, they don't stop you from playing Uthwe or Biel-Tan led by one, but they also don't get a trait they shouldn't get.

Wouldn't be the end of the world if they didn't.

I would say that this is almost certain, or at least that it'll get faq'd to be possible very quickly. This has been the standard treatment for in-faction units with no subfaction, such as Fabius Bile and Commissars.

 Kanluwen wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Part of the Biel Tan trait affects their Aspect Warriors. The other part does nothing or very little for most Aspect Warriors.
If you wanted a rule for better militia then it would be under Ulthwe because they actually have that rather than FNP.

Didn't they say that Black Guardians is a Stratagem for Ulthwe?

I think that's a pretty nice setup personally.

Same with the Craftworld trait. It's less "FNP" and more "Fate Roll"-ish .

So the Black Guardians are better trained....for a little while. Then they're the same. That's a terrible way of representing better training.

It's FNP. It's just a flat durability increase with nothing actually related to Seers. The increase in Seers was better represented by having psykers everywhere. Which with these traits would be turned to something like a boost to casting powers affecting your army.

Whereas Biel-Tan's militia is better trained than Uthwe's standing army (Black Guardians are somewhere between militia and an aspect).

Source? I've never heard anything about Biel Tan having above average Guardians.

I do hope they show something that's actually worth getting really excited about. I think the only really compelling thing they've shown so far is 45 point Spiritseers, which is good and playable but not, like, thrilling.

They said that Wraithguard and Lords are getting a minor buff. They said that Dire Avengers are cheaper, but of course they're so expensive that they could be "cheaper" and still be unplayable, and I doubt anyone is expecting them to get buffed to the level of standard Battle Sisters even. We know for sure that they're relying on things like stratagems to try to make Guardians better, so nobody is expecting a whole lot here.

I mean, there's been nothing so far that comes close to the reveal of the new Grinding Advance. What's going on with the currently-terrible grav tanks? Are Rangers any good? Are all of the bad Aspects like Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders and Howling Banshees and Striking Scorpions getting some love?

So far it's hard not to feel like the codex will just be a buff to what I've already been doing. I want to feel like new possibilities for army creation are opening up. Show me something that makes me want to bring a ton of Aspect Warriors or grav tanks.

I remember reading back in 3rd ed that due to having so many aspect shrines, the proportion of guardians called up who actually had formal training (aka former aspects) was much higher. Didn't translate into stats though.

@pm - I was referencing the attribute. Reroll 1s on Shuriken weaponry help things like:
-Guardians
-Windriders (Cats or Cannons)
-WarWalkers (Cannons)
-Vypers (Cats or Cannons)
-Serpents (Cats or Cannons)
-Dire Avengers

Others (Fire Prisims, Banshees, etc) get some incidental gain but not much.

On that list, only Dire Avengers aren't Biel-Tan's militia.

Lack of source for fluff claiming Biel-Tan's militia being more skilled than Uthwe's standing army is the "joke".

Saim-Hann is up. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/19/craftworld-focus-saim-hann-oct-19gw-homepage-post-3/

We had it backwards:

Important to note that Vypers have been given the <Biker> keyword, so they will benefit from the attribute

And move-shot-move is back, but as a Stratagem

Oh hai:

Other news:

Windriders and Scatter Lasers are cheaper (how much??)
Vypers are a little cheaper and are BIKERS

Also, this is an excellent stratagem:

Not really worth it for hit and runs with most bikes but great for Wraithlords, among others. Also this plays really nicely with Ynnari.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Oh hai:

Sooo, Eldar just got the Tau crisis suits jump-shoot-jump ability? I imagine we'll see this used with Warp Spiders a good bit?

I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

 Stormonu wrote:

Sooo, Eldar just got the Tau crisis suits jump-shoot-jump ability? I imagine we'll see this used with Warp Spiders a good bit?

No, they got the Eldar Jetbike jump-shoot-jump BACK, but this time it can apply to ANY Asuryani unit. I'm looking at tanks, Wraithlord and WKs for this one, maybe a large bike unit....or Dark Reapers

-

It's 1CP per use.

It'll be game-deciding not that infrequently. The one cluch Aspect is able to scoot out of harms way at just the right moment. But only one unit per term. At the cost of a CP.

Seems fun, awesome, and with strategic downsides. Plays right into how I play my CWE. Perfect!

pm713 wrote:
I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

I mean, Grey Knights can make use of Space Marine stratagems as long as you have a Marine detachment.

Niiru wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:This thread is funny. Like every other thread nobody is happy until the stratagems are busted out. Seriously, it's the stratagems in every book that take things to the next level. Most traits from any of the books so far are not that great barring a select few.

For Imperial Guard, stratagems make a lot of difference. This is because they can easily get 15-25 CP's, and burn through 3 or 4 stratagems every turn.

Eldar... I dunno. I think the most I've gotten in my random list theory builds is 9 points total, and the list was very minmax and not very good. 7 or 8 is probably the more common end result, if not more like 5 or 6. Depends on if people bother with troops in their lists (which might become more useful in the codex with points drops etc).

Which means Eldar can use 3 or 4 stratagems PER GAME. Compared to IG using that many every turn.

Stratagems make a lot more of a difference to an IG army. For Eldar, they're just a novelty. Especially if they're all like that Avatar one, which is pretty situational and very expensive.

Sorry but this is so daft. I have been playing a ton of 40k against all the newest books as of late and sure some armies can spam CP's more then others but that isn't nearly what your making it out to be. Most books have a half dozen really glowing statagems and most of them are amazing because they are 1cp. Since you can only use them once a turn in matched play and some are situational, having 25 is totally unnecessary. Also, as a guy that ownbs a ton of guard going back to 2nd ed, thats a bullcrap claim as well. I can make a list that gets around 16 and that is with some major holes in my army, to get to 25 I'd be fielding garbage, something every army can do. You know how I know thats BS btw, because in matched play your stuck with 3 detachments meqaning you would need 3 brigades... Also you can try to claim 9 CP's somehow equates to 3-4 Strats per game.... but we both know what your doing there. It's more likely 8 or even 9 stratagems per game because we all know it's bullcrap that your gona burn your CP's on 3 point stratagems.

Basically, just relax and wait to see what really matters that they are not leaking. I am sure this book is going to be strong.

Dionysodorus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

I mean, Grey Knights can make use of Space Marine stratagems as long as you have a Marine detachment.

Seems like a bad design choice to me.

Bharring wrote:
Seems fun, awesome, and with strategic downsides. Plays right into how I play my CWE. Perfect!

I agree. It's fluffy, useful, but not overpowered. Perfect indeed

 Stormonu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Oh hai:

Sooo, Eldar just got the Tau crisis suits jump-shoot-jump ability? I imagine we'll see this used with Warp Spiders a good bit?

No the Eldar just got back proper Battlefocus as 1CP stratagem (albeit a bit stronger)

Also gotta love the wording, unless Wraith lost the Asuryani Keyword it means we can use this for slingshot them across a melee line.

So D-scythe wraithguard moves 5"+1d6 shoot then burn 1 CP to move 7" extra and bubble wrap X unit so the wraiths remain as only viable charging unit for the enemy... that can be really nasty

P.S: also seems the Fire Prism it's been *vastly Improved*.... we'll see it tomorrow

Loving it.

Dionysodorus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

I mean, Grey Knights can make use of Space Marine stratagems as long as you have a Marine detachment.

They can make use of them in that the Stratagems can be used. There's no guarantee that it will actually affect you.

Isn't "Asuryani" the keyword that the Craftworld Eldar stuff has, while "Aeldari" is the shared racial keyword?

Lord Perversor wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Oh hai:

Sooo, Eldar just got the Tau crisis suits jump-shoot-jump ability? I imagine we'll see this used with Warp Spiders a good bit?

No the Eldar just got back proper Battlefocus as 1CP stratagem (albeit a bit stronger)

Also gotta love the wording, unless Wraith lost the Asuryani Keyword it means we can use this for slingshot them across a melee line.

So D-scythe wraithguard moves 5"+1d6 shoot then burn 1 CP to move 7" extra and bubble wrap X unit so the wraiths remain as only viable charging unit for the enemy... that can be really nasty

P.S: also seems the Fire Prism it's been *vastly Improved*.... we'll see it tomorrow

*twirls moustache like a villain*

I like your thinking.

It’s good that the move shoot move is back, and I think it’s right that they have made it a strategem. That way it won’t become an overused and obnoxious gimmick.

pm713 wrote:

Dionysodorus wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I would have thought Ynnari couldn't use Craftworld stratagems.

I mean, Grey Knights can make use of Space Marine stratagems as long as you have a Marine detachment.

Seems like a bad design choice to me.

His statement is a bit of a misnomer.

Grey Knights can, possibly, be affected by Space Marine stratagems that affect keyword "Adeptus Astartes" stuff. They can't be affected by anything that is specific to the Chapters or units like Predators and Sternguard.

There was something that cropped up on the Community Facebook relatively recently I think it was where someone asked if the Alpha Legion Stratagem "Tide of Traitors" would affect Death Guard Cultists and they replied that yes, it would since it just affected keyword "Cultist" not Alpha Legion specifically. That has since given rise to this kind of thinking.