quickfuze wrote: I thought there was something that allowed units to ignore the moving penalty for heavy weapons?
The Saim-Hann trait and it's only for Jetbikes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DivineVisitor wrote: Been trying to track all the point changes across things, think i've got everything with the exception of:
Wave Serpent (base cost)
Twin Bright Lance (assuming its also cheaper like the other twin weapons)
Anyone seen a review that covers these and any possible changes?
I've not seen those, I've been looking around for concrete changes to single Bright Lances and Shuriken Cannons myself
I'm reading differing reports saying Dire Avengers are either 12 or 13 points, mostly the latter. Not a major deal either way but I am curious.
From what i've uncovered thus far your queries are as follows:
Shuriken Cannon - 10 (17 for Twin)
Bright Lance 20 (40 for Twin)
Avengers 12 (8 base, 4 for Avenger Catapults)
With regards to options that were in the Index but not in the codex how have GW advised players to act? Im aware Rough Riders can still be used from their Index entry but what in the case of simple weapon options missing from units? And if those units have special rules that have changed from the Index to the Codex which do you use? And do they benefit from any Army Traits?
One of the major gripes i have about the new Codex's is the removal of options (in some but not all cases) due to them not selling a model with said options. It's causing me a major headache. The Autarch in particular has been hit hard by this due to the discontinuation of previous Autarch models.
I could see it being interpreted in a few ways.
1) Use the Index points and Index special rules, ignore any changes made in the new Codex to the unit
2) Use Index points but use updated special rules from new Codex for the unit
3) Use new Codex points and updated special rules from new Codex but allow the unit access to the same options it had in the Index
It would also be amazing to have a more detailed understanding of their power generation as a conclave (lots of different iterations, mainly people calling them rubbish)
As all of the videos seem unclear. As I understand they are cheaper in a conclave than as individuals? This is my understanding thus far:
Warlock: 35pts
Warlock sky runner: 65pts
Warlock conclave: 30pts per model minimum 2
Warlock skyrunner conclave: 60ptd per model minimum 2
Singing spear: 4pts
So a large conclave of 10 with singing spears = 640 pts?
Totally understand they're not optimum. Would just like to understand for fun games.
Elbows wrote: There is an entry in the Codex which basically states that use of Ynnari in the army completely invalidates the Craftworld rules/stratagems, etc.
What, seriously?
Just straight like that?
I can't believe it. That's the dumbest thing ever. Wasn't forcing us to field a separate detachment for the Ynnari characters and losing traits and relics enough? They had to make Ynnari the blandest army in 8th with no access to stratagems?
If it's like that I'm shelving my army. I'm fortunate because I had only purchased the Triumvirate and a few CWE and Harlequin models.
And please don't tell me Ynnari are fine power level wise. Stratagems are a big thing in 8th, and all revised armies are getting them. Not having them handicaps Ynnari, and SfD doesn't compensate it in the slightest. But most importantly, stratagems give armies another layer of complexity and tactics, they make them fun.
PD: B plan - use Yncarne as Avatar of Khaine, Yvraine as Eldrad, Visarch as any decent CWE character (we win here), Harlequin troupe as Banshees and call it a deal. I don't love it but it's better than play a handicapped army until GW decide to release proper rules for them.
Elbows wrote: There is an entry in the Codex which basically states that use of Ynnari in the army completely invalidates the Craftworld rules/stratagems, etc.
What, seriously?
Just straight like that?
I can't believe it. That's the dumbest thing ever. Wasn't forcing us to field a separate detachment for the Ynnari characters and losing traits and relics enough? They had to make Ynnari the blandest army in 8th with no access to stratagems?
If it's like that I'm shelving my army. I'm fortunate because I had only purchased the Triumvirate and a few CWE and Harlequin models.
And please don't tell me Ynnari are fine power level wise. Stratagems are a big thing in 8th, and all revised armies are getting them. Not having them handicaps Ynnari, and SfD doesn't compensate it in the slightest. But most importantly, stratagems give armies another layer of complexity and tactics, they make them fun.
PD: B plan - use Yncarne as Avatar of Khaine, Yvraine as Eldrad, Visarch as any decent CWE character (we win here), Harlequin troupe as Banshees and call it a deal. I don't love it but it's better than play a handicapped army until GW decide to release proper rules for them.
You can use the stratagems, you just can't use the 'craftworld attributes' (as that would obviously be insanely OP). You also don't get objective secured on your troops.
Dionysodorus wrote: Looks like Autarchs lost all their wargear options. Regular Autarchs have a power fist equivalent (6 point star glaive), winged autarchs have a fusion pistol and power sword, and skyrunners have a power sword (can be replaced with laser lance or fusion gun).
Nooo, that's sad... Do you mean the winged autarch cannot take a fusion gun? What's the point of the trait kournos hunter than?.....please don't tell me the reaper launcher also
Yeah, judging from SS82's video they're all gone apparently. The Autarch on foot and the one with Swooping Hawk Wings now have fixed wargear, and the Autarch Skyrunner comes with a power sword which he can replace with either a laser lance or fusion gun.
Was looking forward to using a Saim-Hann Autarch Skyrunner with the shoot at characters warlord trait, a fusion gun, the relic lance and a banshee mask to go hunt characters. I suppose you could use the Autarch Skyrunner entry from the index, but would that mean you have to use the old Path of Command and banshee mask rules, as they're on the datasheet?
Elbows wrote: There is an entry in the Codex which basically states that use of Ynnari in the army completely invalidates the Craftworld rules/stratagems, etc.
What, seriously?
Just straight like that?
I can't believe it. That's the dumbest thing ever. Wasn't forcing us to field a separate detachment for the Ynnari characters and losing traits and relics enough? They had to make Ynnari the blandest army in 8th with no access to stratagems?
If it's like that I'm shelving my army. I'm fortunate because I had only purchased the Triumvirate and a few CWE and Harlequin models.
And please don't tell me Ynnari are fine power level wise. Stratagems are a big thing in 8th, and all revised armies are getting them. Not having them handicaps Ynnari, and SfD doesn't compensate it in the slightest. But most importantly, stratagems give armies another layer of complexity and tactics, they make them fun.
PD: B plan - use Yncarne as Avatar of Khaine, Yvraine as Eldrad, Visarch as any decent CWE character (we win here), Harlequin troupe as Banshees and call it a deal. I don't love it but it's better than play a handicapped army until GW decide to release proper rules for them.
You can use the stratagems, you just can't use the 'craftworld attributes' (as that would obviously be insanely OP). You also don't get objective secured on your troops.
That's way more reasonable. Can you confirm it from the alleged paragraph of the new book? That's how everyone supposed it would work before, but Elbows clearly stated no stratagems for Ynnari. That's what triggered me.
Elbows wrote: There is an entry in the Codex which basically states that use of Ynnari in the army completely invalidates the Craftworld rules/stratagems, etc.
What, seriously?
Just straight like that?
I can't believe it. That's the dumbest thing ever. Wasn't forcing us to field a separate detachment for the Ynnari characters and losing traits and relics enough? They had to make Ynnari the blandest army in 8th with no access to stratagems?
If it's like that I'm shelving my army. I'm fortunate because I had only purchased the Triumvirate and a few CWE and Harlequin models.
And please don't tell me Ynnari are fine power level wise. Stratagems are a big thing in 8th, and all revised armies are getting them. Not having them handicaps Ynnari, and SfD doesn't compensate it in the slightest. But most importantly, stratagems give armies another layer of complexity and tactics, they make them fun.
PD: B plan - use Yncarne as Avatar of Khaine, Yvraine as Eldrad, Visarch as any decent CWE character (we win here), Harlequin troupe as Banshees and call it a deal. I don't love it but it's better than play a handicapped army until GW decide to release proper rules for them.
You can use the stratagems, you just can't use the 'craftworld attributes' (as that would obviously be insanely OP). You also don't get objective secured on your troops.
That's way more reasonable. Can you confirm it from the alleged paragraph of the new book? That's how everyone supposed it would work before, but Elbows clearly stated no stratagems for Ynnari. That's what triggered me.
The exact wording:
Ynnari is a keyword that some units in this book can gain when taken as part of a reborn army as detailed in other publications. If a detachment includes any Ynnari units it is no longer a craftworld detachment and will not gain either of the abilities below: The abilities listed are objective secured and the craft world attributes.
Without having the book I couldn't tell you with all certainty, but I think the key is that Ynnari gain Ynnari keyword but don't lose Craftworld keyword, so should still synergise with a lot of the stratagems which simply pick craftworld or asuryani units rather than specific craftworlds like Iyanden Ulthwe etc.
Otherwise I could be entirely wrong and it does completely rule out the two opening up space for a unique Ynnari codex.
Going from the table top tactics battle report what’s said above is correct as ynnari wouldn’t benefit from the autarchs path of command ability either, basically being ynnari means you lose access to the craftworld traits, warlord traits, relics and strategems but still have access to the generic warlord traits, relics and strategems.
Does anyone know if the Phoenix gem is one time only or every time the character dies? would be pretty hilarious to run a character in to a large group of enemies and have a good chance to keep exploding and sticking around.
Of course you don't even gain access to the stratagems if you don't have at least one Craftworld detachment in your army.
Would also not be surprised if they rule at one point that you cannot use stratagems on units outside of 'Space Marine detachments', 'Craftworld detachments' etc at some point in the future.
Dionysodorus wrote: Looks like Autarchs lost all their wargear options. Regular Autarchs have a power fist equivalent (6 point star glaive), winged autarchs have a fusion pistol and power sword, and skyrunners have a power sword (can be replaced with laser lance or fusion gun).
Nooo, that's sad... Do you mean the winged autarch cannot take a fusion gun? What's the point of the trait kournos hunter than?.....please don't tell me the reaper launcher also
Yeah, judging from SS82's video they're all gone apparently. The Autarch on foot and the one with Swooping Hawk Wings now have fixed wargear, and the Autarch Skyrunner comes with a power sword which he can replace with either a laser lance or fusion gun.
Was looking forward to using a Saim-Hann Autarch Skyrunner with the shoot at characters warlord trait, a fusion gun, the relic lance and a banshee mask to go hunt characters. I suppose you could use the Autarch Skyrunner entry from the index, but would that mean you have to use the old Path of Command and banshee mask rules, as they're on the datasheet?
That’s a shame, especially as the old Autarch with rocket launcher is available again (albeit limited) might think twice about buying it now.
Yeah, that's a kind of goofy likely outcome of how legacy index models are handled. They tell you to use the old datasheet but the newer points. So yeah, you're likely stuck with the old wording of all changed abilities.
Sadly, this wording kind of destroys any kind of functional Ynnari+CWE army: even if you field the Ynnari model un a different detachment, the moment you give the Ynnari keyword the CWE detachment units they stop being a Craftworld detachment, thus losing access to traits, relics but also Stratagems (even if they don't appear explicitly un the wording, only a Craftworld detachment can use Craftworld stratagems, right?).
And they had the nerve to repack the Triumvirate with this release ò_ó. "Hey, you can field this awesome models together with the CWE in a completely disfunctional, bland army! Nice!".
Unless there are expanded rules in the box (highly unlikely) ir some kind of beefing up un the Chapter Approved this winter, I think we are doomed to wait years for a real Ynnari army.
It'd be weird if they made a new faction and just left them in the index. Hopefully GW make some Ynnari specific troop and vehicle so they can put it in a codex, like the tempestus codex.
Ynnari seem to be doing pretty well with the Index so far and they haven't actually lost a single thing they had 2-3 days ago. Quite the opposite, some of the things they can take got cheaper and/or have a better statline (e.g. Wraithguard). Not a single thing got a points increase as far as I am aware.
Having Ynnari wait a bit longer for their own Strategems, etc.. isn't any more a nerf or unfair than having Orks, Space Wolves or Tau wait for theirs.
Indeed, as non-Ynnari Craftworld Index armies were arguably much rarer than Ynnair Index armies, it seems quite fitting that they started the Eldar-train with the arguably least-played/weakest pointy-ears faction from the Index (and if the Codex power creep of the recent books keeps going, Craftworld may well end up being the weakest again once all the books are out).
Maybe they'll get merged in with the Harlequins? They would also be a pretty short codex with their current range, so having them share a book could make sense.
Thank's to scorpion we know basically all the point costs, I already modified my list and I could fit about 240 pts more with 7 cps.
Overall I'm pretty happy with this new codex, the only thing that really disappointed me are the autarchs :(... The warp jump pack one is gone, and I have mine converted who looks gorgeous, and I was planning to do a sniper one but is not possible at all to do, shame on them. The relics for them are pretty meh...
It's unbelievable that cause they don't want to do a proper new kit they just cut rules...
About the ynnari rule I honestly don't mind as an old Eldar player I would focus on the craftworlds in any case
Wonderwolf wrote: Ynnari seem to be doing pretty well with the Index so far and they haven't actually lost a single thing they had 2-3 days ago. Quite the opposite, some of the things they can take got cheaper and/or have a better statline (e.g. Wraithguard). Not a single thing got a points increase as far as I am aware.
Having Ynnari wait a bit longer for their own Strategems, etc.. isn't any more a nerf or unfair than having Orks, Space Wolves or Tau wait for theirs.
Indeed, as non-Ynnari Craftworld Index armies were arguably much rarer than Ynnair Index armies, it seems quite fitting that they started the Eldar-train with the arguably least-played/weakest pointy-ears faction from the Index (and if the Codex power creep of the recent books keeps going, Craftworld may well end up being the weakest again once all the books are out).
As I said before, it's not mainly about being competitive, but about being fun to play. When you lack almost half of the mechsnics other armies get, it sure feels like you are playing a half-made army.
Yet, every army which is released including stratagems, warlord traits and relics make Ynnari comparatively weaker.
Is it actually the same as having Orks or Tau waiting for their turn? Not at all. We know those armies are scheduled for release sooner or later. We also know that the other two Eldar factions are very likely to be released before they even consider Ynnari. In fact, we don't even have confirmation Ynnari will get a full release anytime. Hardly the same, IMHO.
Well, enough with being salty. Count-as it will be!
Ultimately the points costs are what really matters, and Eldar have been handed a huge buff here.
From what we can see now, I expect to see Alaitoc armies as top tier - or very close to it. It looks like they even have a decent chance against tank companies.
One of the really big things will be turn one charges from fast units like banshees. I expect they'll be a very welcome threat to parking lots, because quite large numbers of them can be fielded. They won't do a lot of damage but they'll suppress a lot, while other units get the real work done. You can deep strike three units (or maybe just a couple, plus some fire dragons or something) and charge people all over the place.
Wraithknights that can move twice will also radically change things. They'll go from far away where the enemy has -1 to hit to stomping on your face in the blink of an eye.
I think units like vypers might well end up having a really key role in tying down enemy shooters. A squad could engage a number of enemy tanks at once, forcing them to fall back and miss shots (if they can even move away). They'll be all over people like a rash I think, if there aren't really serious units around ready to counter-charge them.
Meanwhile units like jetbikes and dire avengers will make really solid midfield fighters and objective grabbers, thanks to being difficult to shoot and reasonably-priced.
My understanding, following Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics reading the rule out verbatem in his Ulthwe battle report yesterday, is that an army that has any Ynnari models in it looses access to the ObSec rule and all of the Craftworld Traits.
However, it's still entirely possible to run an army with an Ynnari detachment and a Craftworlds detachment. The Craftworlds detachment wont get the above mentioned benefits but would still unlock access to the strategems and at least the generic Warlord traits and relics if not the Craftworld specific ones. This is how I've taken it since it works for Space Marines.
Imateria wrote: My understanding, following Lawrence from Tabletop Tactics reading the rule out verbatem in his Ulthwe battle report yesterday, is that an army that has any Ynnari models in it looses access to the ObSec rule and all of the Craftworld Traits.
However, it's still entirely possible to run an army with an Ynnari detachment and a Craftworlds detachment. The Craftworlds detachment wont get the above mentioned benefits but would still unlock access to the strategems and at least the generic Warlord traits and relics if not the Craftworld specific ones. This is how I've taken it since it works for Space Marines.
Yeah, but the moment you give Ynnari keyword to the CWE detachment, they lose access to all of this. And if you don't give it to them, what's the point of fielding Ynnari?
The point of fielding Ynnari is that you get an excellent Trait (Strength from Death) and access to more unit options than going from one book alone (Eldar, DE, Harlies), plus access to the 3 characters. My expectation is that if you play Ynnari, you lose any Craftworld trait, Craftworld related warlord traits, and any specific Craftworld relics or strategems. Generic units strategems should be fine.
Mantle wrote: Does anyone know if the Phoenix gem is one time only or every time the character dies? would be pretty hilarious to run a character in to a large group of enemies and have a good chance to keep exploding and sticking around.
I think I've heard it on stream that it was "the first time the bearer dies".
GW's stated reason for the Ynnari rules in the Triumvirate box is so your not forced to buy the Index to use them alongside Craftworld units. As a bonus(for GW) It also means that once the DE, Harlie and Necron codex's are out they can discontinue Index Xenos vol1.
bullyboy wrote: The point of fielding Ynnari is that you get an excellent Trait (Strength from Death) and access to more unit options than going from one book alone (Eldar, DE, Harlies), plus access to the 3 characters. My expectation is that if you play Ynnari, you lose any Craftworld trait, Craftworld related warlord traits, and any specific Craftworld relics or strategems. Generic units strategems should be fine.
I don't think you understood me well. I meant what's the point of using Ynnari without giving the Ynnari keyword to a whole detachment (in order to have a pure CW detachment with access to stratagems).
The rule says if you have any Ynnari model (not only the special characters) you are not a CW detachment. And as far as I know, if don't have a battleforged Craftworld detachment you can't use Craftworld stratagems (not talking about the specific Craftworld ones, but the "generic Craftworld" ones).
Now that I think about it, the mix-n-match of Ynnari is almost irrelevant when you can field different detachment of Asuryani, Drukkari and Harlequins side by side. The bennefit is minimal.
bullyboy wrote: The point of fielding Ynnari is that you get an excellent Trait (Strength from Death) and access to more unit options than going from one book alone (Eldar, DE, Harlies), plus access to the 3 characters. My expectation is that if you play Ynnari, you lose any Craftworld trait, Craftworld related warlord traits, and any specific Craftworld relics or strategems. Generic units strategems should be fine.
I don't think you understood me well. I meant what's the point of using Ynnari without giving the Ynnari keyword to a whole detachment (in order to have a pure CW detachment with access to stratagems).
The rule says if you have any Ynnari model (not only the special characters) you are not a CW detachment. And as far as I know, if don't have a battleforged Craftworld detachment you can't use Craftworld stratagems (not talking about the specific Craftworld ones, but the "generic Craftworld" ones).
Now that I think about it, the mix-n-match of Ynnari is almost irrelevant when you can field different detachment of Asuryani, Drukkari and Harlequins side by side. The bennefit is minimal.
I mean, the benefit is SfD. You can bring a Spearhead with Yvraine and some Dark Reapers. Also, you can unlock stratagems with a single detachment, and you can pick things that are much better as Craftworld than as Ynnari. If you want to go cheap, 165 points gets you an Alatoic Spiritseer and 2 units of Rangers, plus Craftworld stratagems. A wing of Hemlocks is super-powerful, is always better as Alatoic, and unlocks stratagems.
DanielFM wrote: Sadly, this wording kind of destroys any kind of functional Ynnari+CWE army: even if you field the Ynnari model un a different detachment, the moment you give the Ynnari keyword the CWE detachment units they stop being a Craftworld detachment, thus losing access to traits, relics but also Stratagems (even if they don't appear explicitly un the wording, only a Craftworld detachment can use Craftworld stratagems, right?).
And they had the nerve to repack the Triumvirate with this release ò_ó. "Hey, you can field this awesome models together with the CWE in a completely disfunctional, bland army! Nice!".
Unless there are expanded rules in the box (highly unlikely) ir some kind of beefing up un the Chapter Approved this winter, I think we are doomed to wait years for a real Ynnari army.
The count-as option is gaining weight...
It's a bit of a mix, Ynnari can use some Stratagems.
If it follow the rules for Imperial armies, armies made of Ynnari detachments wouldn't get the benefits of the craftworld traits or warlord traits, and wouldn't have access to Craftworld strategems.
But an Ynnari army that has a Craftworld detachment would have access to the new strategems and would be able to apply them to Ynnari detachment units, as long as they met the specific requirements - some AdMech strategems will effect <Forge World> Robots, whilst others just effect ADEPTUS MECHANICUS units or Electropriests. The former would be useless to the Ynnari, but Guardians are Guardians wherever they are from.
Fire Prism stratagem is out, and obviously the Craftworld specific ones, but the various Fire and Fade style options are still in. As long as you have a pure Craftworld detachment in your army. Stratagems are not a command benefit to a detachment, they're something at the army level.
DanielFM wrote: Sadly, this wording kind of destroys any kind of functional Ynnari+CWE army: even if you field the Ynnari model un a different detachment, the moment you give the Ynnari keyword the CWE detachment units they stop being a Craftworld detachment, thus losing access to traits, relics but also Stratagems (even if they don't appear explicitly un the wording, only a Craftworld detachment can use Craftworld stratagems, right?).
And they had the nerve to repack the Triumvirate with this release ò_ó. "Hey, you can field this awesome models together with the CWE in a completely disfunctional, bland army! Nice!".
Unless there are expanded rules in the box (highly unlikely) ir some kind of beefing up un the Chapter Approved this winter, I think we are doomed to wait years for a real Ynnari army.
The count-as option is gaining weight...
It's a bit of a mix, Ynnari can use some Stratagems.
If it follow the rules for Imperial armies, armies made of Ynnari detachments wouldn't get the benefits of the craftworld traits or warlord traits, and wouldn't have access to Craftworld strategems.
But an Ynnari army that has a Craftworld detachment would have access to the new strategems and would be able to apply them to Ynnari detachment units, as long as they met the specific requirements - some AdMech strategems will effect <Forge World> Robots, whilst others just effect ADEPTUS MECHANICUS units or Electropriests. The former would be useless to the Ynnari, but Guardians are Guardians wherever they are from.
Fire Prism stratagem is out, and obviously the Craftworld specific ones, but the various Fire and Fade style options are still in. As long as you have a pure Craftworld detachment in your army. Stratagems are not a command benefit to a detachment, they're something at the army level.
Ynnari units are still <Craftworld> units. It's just that detachments which include any Ynnari units are not "Craftworld Detachments". Ynnari Fire Prisms can make use of the stratagem as long as you've unlocked it with a Craftworld Detachment. Ynnari Alatoic Rangers can make use of the Alatoic stratagem, even.
Mandragola wrote: Ultimately the points costs are what really matters, and Eldar have been handed a huge buff here.
From what we can see now, I expect to see Alaitoc armies as top tier - or very close to it. It looks like they even have a decent chance against tank companies.
One of the really big things will be turn one charges from fast units like banshees. I expect they'll be a very welcome threat to parking lots, because quite large numbers of them can be fielded. They won't do a lot of damage but they'll suppress a lot, while other units get the real work done. You can deep strike three units (or maybe just a couple, plus some fire dragons or something) and charge people all over the place.
Wraithknights that can move twice will also radically change things. They'll go from far away where the enemy has -1 to hit to stomping on your face in the blink of an eye.
I think units like vypers might well end up having a really key role in tying down enemy shooters. A squad could engage a number of enemy tanks at once, forcing them to fall back and miss shots (if they can even move away). They'll be all over people like a rash I think, if there aren't really serious units around ready to counter-charge them.
Meanwhile units like jetbikes and dire avengers will make really solid midfield fighters and objective grabbers, thanks to being difficult to shoot and reasonably-priced.
I think the majority of the Phoenix Lords went down like 10-15 points, so nothing major. No big changes that I could see. I watched too many preview videos yesterday though so my brain is foggy with runes.
DanielFM wrote: Sadly, this wording kind of destroys any kind of functional Ynnari+CWE army: even if you field the Ynnari model un a different detachment, the moment you give the Ynnari keyword the CWE detachment units they stop being a Craftworld detachment, thus losing access to traits, relics but also Stratagems (even if they don't appear explicitly un the wording, only a Craftworld detachment can use Craftworld stratagems, right?).
And they had the nerve to repack the Triumvirate with this release ò_ó. "Hey, you can field this awesome models together with the CWE in a completely disfunctional, bland army! Nice!".
Unless there are expanded rules in the box (highly unlikely) ir some kind of beefing up un the Chapter Approved this winter, I think we are doomed to wait years for a real Ynnari army.
The count-as option is gaining weight...
ANY DEtachment can use a stratagem you have access to. So if you have at least one Craftworld detachment to get access to Craftworld stratagems, any Craftworld units in your army can use them, even the ones in an Ynnari detachment.
Goobi2 wrote: Its not hard to unlock Craftworld Strats for Ynnari. 3 Warlocks. SfD doesnt mean too much for them and they can throw around handy buffs and debuffs.
As far as I've heard (having not read the codex myself) such a detachment in an Ynnari army would still be an Ynnari detachment and not a Craftworld detachment. The Warlocks become Ynnari by being members of an Ynnari army, and the codex apparently says that Ynnari detachments are not Craftworld detachments, even though the models in them can still be Craftworld models.
Goobi2 wrote: Its not hard to unlock Craftworld Strats for Ynnari. 3 Warlocks. SfD doesnt mean too much for them and they can throw around handy buffs and debuffs.
Well, these Warlocks would bring something to the table if they were Ynnari, as they would die to a strong breeze and trigger SfD. But not if they are fielded as Craftworld. Just a thought.
A better option might be rangers, as they are cheap now and would never soulburst as they're always going to be more than 7" from a dying unit.
I'd probably spend a little more though and go with something like an Alaitoc Battallion. 3 units of Rangers, with a couple warlocks or maybe one Warlock and one Autarch with a Reaper Launcher (if this is still possible). 15 sniper shots with re-rolls of 1's, plus a reaper launcher, with the Rangers having -2 or even -3 to hit... Adds up to something like 260-300 points (depending on hq picks), gets you 3CP and craftworld stratagems, as well as obsec troops.
Goobi2 wrote: Its not hard to unlock Craftworld Strats for Ynnari. 3 Warlocks. SfD doesnt mean too much for them and they can throw around handy buffs and debuffs.
As far as I've heard (having not read the codex myself) such a detachment in an Ynnari army would still be an Ynnari detachment and not a Craftworld detachment. The Warlocks become Ynnari by being members of an Ynnari army, and the codex apparently says that Ynnari detachments are not Craftworld detachments, even though the models in them can still be Craftworld models.
Goobi2 wrote: Its not hard to unlock Craftworld Strats for Ynnari. 3 Warlocks. SfD doesnt mean too much for them and they can throw around handy buffs and debuffs.
Well, these Warlocks would bring something to the table if they were Ynnari, as they would die to a strong breeze and trigger SfD. But not if they are fielded as Craftworld. Just a thought.
A better option might be rangers, as they are cheap now and would never soulburst as they're always going to be more than 7" from a dying unit.
I'd probably spend a little more though and go with something like an Alaitoc Battallion. 3 units of Rangers, with a couple warlocks or maybe one Warlock and one Autarch with a Reaper Launcher (if this is still possible). 15 sniper shots with re-rolls of 1's, plus a reaper launcher, with the Rangers having -2 or even -3 to hit... Adds up to something like 260-300 points (depending on hq picks), gets you 3CP and craftworld stratagems, as well as obsec troops.
Warlocks bring plenty to the table as is.
Even not as Ynnari they can trigger SfD for other units near by. They can know very useful powers such as Quicken (which could be used to get those Ynnari Shining Spears across the board very quickly, who would still be able to Soul Burst that turn). And they can know Protect and Conceal to keep your hard hitters alive, or even use Jinx to help mow down enemy units. Being Craftworld, and unlocking the stratagems, they can double the range of those powers and cast from relative safety if need be.
For nearly half the cost of those Rangers, you'll get a few psykers that will have a more obvious effect on the the game. And for Obsec Troops, there is a pretty good chance Ynnari will have those too in December via Chapter Approved. But, if you absolutely need it now the Ranger method may be for you.
Goobi2 wrote: Its not hard to unlock Craftworld Strats for Ynnari. 3 Warlocks. SfD doesnt mean too much for them and they can throw around handy buffs and debuffs.
Well, these Warlocks would bring something to the table if they were Ynnari, as they would die to a strong breeze and trigger SfD. But not if they are fielded as Craftworld. Just a thought.
A better option might be rangers, as they are cheap now and would never soulburst as they're always going to be more than 7" from a dying unit.
I'd probably spend a little more though and go with something like an Alaitoc Battallion. 3 units of Rangers, with a couple warlocks or maybe one Warlock and one Autarch with a Reaper Launcher (if this is still possible). 15 sniper shots with re-rolls of 1's, plus a reaper launcher, with the Rangers having -2 or even -3 to hit... Adds up to something like 260-300 points (depending on hq picks), gets you 3CP and craftworld stratagems, as well as obsec troops.
Warlocks bring plenty to the table as is.
Even not as Ynnari they can trigger SfD for other units near by. They can know very useful powers such as Quicken (which could be used to get those Ynnari Shining Spears across the board very quickly, who would still be able to Soul Burst that turn). And they can know Protect and Conceal to keep your hard hitters alive, or even use Jinx to help mow down enemy units. Being Craftworld, and unlocking the stratagems, they can double the range of those powers and cast from relative safety if need be.
For nearly half the cost of those Rangers, you'll get a few psykers that will have a more obvious effect on the the game. And for Obsec Troops, there is a pretty good chance Ynnari will have those too in December via Chapter Approved. But, if you absolutely need it now the Ranger method may be for you.
You're right, sorry I had been thinking that a friendly unit dying only triggers soulburst if it is a friendly Ynnari unit. But it just says "any unit", so the warlocks can just be Craftworld and still trigger soulburst when they die. Probably the cheapest option, not too bad.
Though Rangers are now decent, and they don't benefit from soulburst, so no harm getting 3 extra CP's out of the deal. Especially as stratagems are at least as important/powerful as a warlock power.
DarknessEternal wrote: So naked Wraithknights are still 82 points more than the objectively superior naked Imperial Knight?
Seems so. I mean, you get a Wraithknight with a 6+++ FnP, or a Wraithknight with -1 to hit... or you can have the non-degrading damage table. All good buffs, really. Still not worth the 100 points it is overcosted I don't think.
Mandragola wrote: Wraithknights that can move twice will also radically change things. They'll go from far away where the enemy has -1 to hit to stomping on your face in the blink of an eye.
quicken is infantry/bikers only...
It is, but I understand that there's also a stratagem which does something similar. A unit can move after shooting, including to charge - according to the guy with the review video (who gets things wrong from time to time).
The stratagem might have a similar restriction on it, or the guy who read it in the video may have got it wrong, in which case ignore me. Use deep striking wraithblades instead.
Even so, options like deep striking howling banshees look like they will be highly effective. That extra 3" of charge range, along with immunity to oerwatch, makes the chances of them getting in far better. And units like vypers, with their move of 20 (if in squadrons) will be excellent for locking tanks in combat, regardless of any psychic powers or stratagems.
Mandragola wrote: Wraithknights that can move twice will also radically change things. They'll go from far away where the enemy has -1 to hit to stomping on your face in the blink of an eye.
quicken is infantry/bikers only...
It is, but I understand that there's also a stratagem which does something similar. A unit can move after shooting, including to charge - according to the guy with the review video (who gets things wrong from time to time).
The stratagem might have a similar restriction on it, or the guy who read it in the video may have got it wrong, in which case ignore me. Use deep striking wraithblades instead.
Even so, options like deep striking howling banshees look like they will be highly effective. That extra 3" of charge range, along with immunity to oerwatch, makes the chances of them getting in far better. And units like vypers, with their move of 20 (if in squadrons) will be excellent for locking tanks in combat, regardless of any psychic powers or stratagems.
Now that commisars are super nerfed I think a squad of 10 swooping hawks will be a fix presence in my list
40 shots,,,4 str 5, 36 str 3, with a guide on them is a monstruos amount of anti light infantry fire power, they only cost 133 pts,,,deep strike, mortal wounds, long range, super mobility.
must have against conscript, termagant, hellions etc etc
Some interesting changes have been made. I've not done anything with the stratagems, relics or powers yet as i haven't finished watching one of the vids.
Mandragola wrote: Wraithknights that can move twice will also radically change things. They'll go from far away where the enemy has -1 to hit to stomping on your face in the blink of an eye.
quicken is infantry/bikers only...
It is, but I understand that there's also a stratagem which does something similar. A unit can move after shooting, including to charge - according to the guy with the review video (who gets things wrong from time to time).
The stratagem might have a similar restriction on it, or the guy who read it in the video may have got it wrong, in which case ignore me. Use deep striking wraithblades instead.
Even so, options like deep striking howling banshees look like they will be highly effective. That extra 3" of charge range, along with immunity to oerwatch, makes the chances of them getting in far better. And units like vypers, with their move of 20 (if in squadrons) will be excellent for locking tanks in combat, regardless of any psychic powers or stratagems.
Can't charge after move shoot move stratagem.
Cool. Well that's probably a good thing then.
Looks like Vypers can be quickened then, as they are now bikers. Comedy 40" moves become possible, if not necessarily all that useful! If a decent-sized jetbike conclave is reasonably-priced, that might be the way to go.
The amazing thing is that we have now almost reached the point cost of the 7th edition codex, with many models within 10/20 points of their 7th edition level and some even under that! (almost all the aspects for example)
I wish someone would give the power level cost of the units, or not cover the with their hand unwittingly. My group uses power level and I want to know if the change to gear dropped the P.L. of my wraithknight. I think scorpions dropped by one, but I haven't been able to check anything else...
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: I wish someone would give the power level cost of the units, or not cover the with their hand unwittingly. My group uses power level and I want to know if the change to gear dropped the P.L. of my wraithknight. I think scorpions dropped by one, but I haven't been able to check anything else...
Most people don't care about PL. I'd like to know as well, as me and my friends sometimes play PL games, but the codex drops soon anyway. I can wait.
They dropped Autarch weapon options in the codex because they are not selling models with those weapons. Currently, there is only two Autarch you can one on the bike and one with scorpion madiblasters with wings. The One for made to order cums with banshee mask and option for reaper launcher. I have a feeling that those options will be included with the miniature when you get it just like they said bone singer rules will come with the miniature.
clodax66 wrote: They dropped Autarch weapon options in the codex because they are not selling models with those weapons. Currently, there is only two Autarch you can one on the bike and one with scorpion madiblasters with wings. The One for made to order cums with banshee mask and option for reaper launcher. I have a feeling that those options will be included with the miniature when you get it just like they said bone singer rules will come with the miniature.
Yes all know WHY they are dropped. Doesn't make that good or player friendly option though.
clodax66 wrote: They dropped Autarch weapon options in the codex because they are not selling models with those weapons. Currently, there is only two Autarch you can one on the bike and one with scorpion madiblasters with wings. The One for made to order cums with banshee mask and option for reaper launcher. I have a feeling that those options will be included with the miniature when you get it just like they said bone singer rules will come with the miniature.
There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.
The only problem is the Autarch with a warp jump generator bacause I think the generator is not listed as a wargear in the index/new codex
Of course that works only when datasheet has vanished from codex. If datasheet exists in codex but say misses options then that's the new up to date datasheet you are supposed to use. No option in datasheet=tough luck. Datasheet in older publication has been replaced by new one.
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.
Of course that works only when datasheet has vanished from codex. If datasheet exists in codex but say misses options then that's the new up to date datasheet you are supposed to use. No option in datasheet=tough luck. Datasheet in older publication has been replaced by new one.
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.
Not true. Dreadnought weapons are the prime example of how this works.
Of course that works only when datasheet has vanished from codex. If datasheet exists in codex but say misses options then that's the new up to date datasheet you are supposed to use. No option in datasheet=tough luck. Datasheet in older publication has been replaced by new one.
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.
Not true. Dreadnought weapons are the prime example of how this works.
I'm quoting GW. That's quote from page linked above.
You have datasheet A. Datasheet gets replaced by newer version. The older version no longer exists.
If you have datasheet B meanwhile that got removed from codex(say autatch with warp jump generator or rough rider) THAT is usable.
No, because the exact article you linked actually says you can use the old datasheet from the index if it has wargear options that have been removed:
There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.
Suffice to say that this index vs codex thing is confusing and it would be really nice if they would give us something more than a hard-to-find blog post on their community site with some clearer language or examples.
Once the codex is released we can just raise it on their facebook page for FAQ. A simple question of “Can my Autarch still use a banshee mask and weapon options listed in the index? If yes, which rule does it use for the mask?”
They tend to answer pretty quickly, and if they don’t have the answer it gets added to the FAQ. I asked some Guard questions 3 days before the FAQ and they were included in it.
We can always make a quick list here and I can post them all up this weekend. (Better to wait for the actual codex to ensure we have all the information)
Redemption wrote: No, because the exact article you linked actually says you can use the old datasheet from the index if it has wargear options that have been removed:
There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.
Yes yes good selective quote. Said page also says newer datasheet overwrites old one. Old one no longer exists. Your quote matters only when datasheet DISAPEARS like it did with warp spider jump generator autarch and rough riders.
Old datasheet does not exists once new comes. Otherwise you could nitpick datasheet you want. Old commisar? Sure go ahead. FAQ only deals with the codex entry so if you can use datasheet that's been updated legal play to take old style commisar from index.
Of course that works only when datasheet has vanished from codex. If datasheet exists in codex but say misses options then that's the new up to date datasheet you are supposed to use. No option in datasheet=tough luck. Datasheet in older publication has been replaced by new one.
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.
Codexes: Your Questions Answered wrote:There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example. Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
This is one of the points that GW contradicts themselves on, but they do say you can use the old datasheet to use the old wargear options even if a more up-to-date datasheet exists, as long as the new datasheet lacks one of the options your taking. If you think otherwise, why would they reference dreadnought weapons?
Yeah. And it will be even stranger with the Craftworld Autarch. E.g. will an Autarch with a Banshee mask use the banshee mask rules used on the index data sheet or the "updated" Banshee mask of the codex (which is not available to the Autarch in the Codex)?
It's less a contradiction and more a general rule with an exemption. You use the latest sheet unless you're using a model with wargear options not on the new one, then you get to use the old one with new points.
There being some subsequent unclear questions about what that means for certain Eldar abilities doesn't change the fact that GW has given us approval to do this.
tneva82 wrote:Yes yes good selective quote. Said page also says newer datasheet overwrites old one. Old one no longer exists. Your quote matters only when datasheet DISAPEARS like it did with warp spider jump generator autarch and rough riders.
Old datasheet does not exists once new comes. Otherwise you could nitpick datasheet you want. Old commisar? Sure go ahead. FAQ only deals with the codex entry so if you can use datasheet that's been updated legal play to take old style commisar from index.
This:
Matt.Kingsley wrote:If you think otherwise, why would they reference dreadnought weapons?
Dreadnoughts exist in both the index and the codex, but options like the twin autocannon have been removed.
Of course in case of the Autarch, you'd also have to use the old Path of Command and Banshee Mask rules from the index.
Of course in case of the Autarch, you'd also have to use the old Path of Command and Banshee Mask rules from the index.
Not so sure. Path of Command throws you another complication. In the Codex, it's not a rule on the Autarch data sheet. It's a general army rule along with Ancient Doom, Battle Focus, etc.. that simply kicks in if an Autarch .. any Autarch, is your Warlord.
In the index, it's on the Autarch data sheet.
So ...... does the old data sheet overwrite the generic army rule from the codex? Or does the generic rule from the Codex overwrite the old index data sheet?
I'm guessing that since the general army rules don't do anything by themselves - the datasheets just reference the general army rules to save space of a rule that's repeated often - and the old datasheet doesn't reference it but just has it in the sheet, it still uses the old one.
tneva82 wrote:Yes yes good selective quote. Said page also says newer datasheet overwrites old one. Old one no longer exists. Your quote matters only when datasheet DISAPEARS like it did with warp spider jump generator autarch and rough riders.
Old datasheet does not exists once new comes. Otherwise you could nitpick datasheet you want. Old commisar? Sure go ahead. FAQ only deals with the codex entry so if you can use datasheet that's been updated legal play to take old style commisar from index.
This:
Matt.Kingsley wrote:If you think otherwise, why would they reference dreadnought weapons?
Dreadnoughts exist in both the index and the codex, but options like the twin autocannon have been removed.
Of course in case of the Autarch, you'd also have to use the old Path of Command and Banshee Mask rules from the index.
Did they quarantee you can use them on matched play?
GW has been clear on new datasheet replacing old one. If you can use old and new datasheets along then I'll take index commisars with 1 guy autopassing morale check then. Nothing like good old cherry picking.
tneva82 wrote:Yes yes good selective quote. Said page also says newer datasheet overwrites old one. Old one no longer exists. Your quote matters only when datasheet DISAPEARS like it did with warp spider jump generator autarch and rough riders.
Old datasheet does not exists once new comes. Otherwise you could nitpick datasheet you want. Old commisar? Sure go ahead. FAQ only deals with the codex entry so if you can use datasheet that's been updated legal play to take old style commisar from index.
This:
Matt.Kingsley wrote:If you think otherwise, why would they reference dreadnought weapons?
Dreadnoughts exist in both the index and the codex, but options like the twin autocannon have been removed.
Of course in case of the Autarch, you'd also have to use the old Path of Command and Banshee Mask rules from the index.
Did they quarantee you can use them on matched play?
GW has been clear on new datasheet replacing old one. If you can use old and new datasheets along then I'll take index commisars with 1 guy autopassing morale check then. Nothing like good old cherry picking.
Oh, did Commissars lose any wargear options? No?
Well then you can't.
Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released? In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.
In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.
Another standard "talk to your opponent" GW ruling, folks.
In prep for the the UKGT heat last weekend a friend asked if he could still use his GK dreadnoughts with quad autocannons, using the options and points from the index (as twin autocannons don't have points in the codex).
He was told yes. That's about as "tournament official" as it gets.
That said, it does clearly need an FAQ. And actually I think it would be problematic to allow Autarchs to have reaper launchers under the current codex rules. The warlord trait that lets you pick out characters is not really ok if you then nuke them off the board with a heavy weapon, and the codex clearly isn't written with that understanding.
So I think there needs to be an FAQ to clarify the rule, but then they'll need to look for where that might cause problems. For instance they might change that warlord trait to say that it doesn't work with heavy weapons.
So my understanding is that the base Autarch got a 5 point price increase. So now I want to use my Warp Jump Autarch with reaper launcher.
The weapon is fine...they say to use the new points which dropped from 31 to 25 I believe. Easy enough.
But the old Warp Jump Autarch was only 7 points more than the base Autarch. So with no point pricing for the Warp Jump we are getting the old index points essentially for 2 points more than the new higher priced Codex Autarch.
Or how would you go about pricing the index version with the current Codex?
AND it did say they can use Chapter Tactics as an example. Does this mean the warp jump generator Autarch has access to Warlord traits, relics, and other CWE strategems/etc????
Yeah exactly. Neither option currently works. Or at least it works but doesn't make sense to get a jump generator for 2 points.
This is why I'm saying there need to be two parts to the FAQ. Part one needs to explain what the rules actually are, and part two needs to errata the index and codex in the light of that.
So for instance in part two you'd probably add 5 or more points to the cost of an autarch with jump generator, and you'd add a sentence to the codex warlord trait saying that you couldn't snipe characters with heavy weapons... with the possible exception of sniper rifles I guess.
admironheart wrote: So my understanding is that the base Autarch got a 5 point price increase. So now I want to use my Warp Jump Autarch with reaper launcher.
The weapon is fine...they say to use the new points which dropped from 31 to 25 I believe. Easy enough.
But the old Warp Jump Autarch was only 7 points more than the base Autarch. So with no point pricing for the Warp Jump we are getting the old index points essentially for 2 points more than the new higher priced Codex Autarch.
Or how would you go about pricing the index version with the current Codex?
AND it did say they can use Chapter Tactics as an example. Does this mean the warp jump generator Autarch has access to Warlord traits, relics, and other CWE strategems/etc????
This all seems unquestionably legal. This is like using Rough Riders with the IG codex. It's a datasheet that no longer appears in the codex, so the one in the index is the most current. All of the detachment-level rules still apply too -- he gets an Attribute by virtue of being a <Craftworld> unit, and he's an Asuryani unit so can get a warlord trait and relic and so on.
Funny. Seems like a Warp Spider Autarch is poised to become more popular without a Codex entry than he ever could've been with an entry (properly point adjusted and rules-hedged against heavy weapon character sniping at 1/3 of the cost of a FW Wraithseer).
Wonderwolf wrote: Funny. Seems like a Warp Spider Autarch is poised to become more popular without a Codex entry than he ever could've been with an entry (properly point adjusted and rules-hedged against heavy weapon character sniping at 1/3 of the cost of a FW Wraithseer).
Mandragola wrote: In prep for the the UKGT heat last weekend a friend asked if he could still use his GK dreadnoughts with quad autocannons, using the options and points from the index (as twin autocannons don't have points in the codex).
He was told yes. That's about as "tournament official" as it gets.
That said, it does clearly need an FAQ. And actually I think it would be problematic to allow Autarchs to have reaper launchers under the current codex rules. The warlord trait that lets you pick out characters is not really ok if you then nuke them off the board with a heavy weapon, and the codex clearly isn't written with that understanding.
So I think there needs to be an FAQ to clarify the rule, but then they'll need to look for where that might cause problems. For instance they might change that warlord trait to say that it doesn't work with heavy weapons.
I don't think there's an issue with him sniping characters with the Reaper Launcher to be honest. Illic's sniper rifle now does 3 damage, hits on 2+, wounds on 2+ and save is at -3 (as opposed to -2 for the Reaper Launcher) and wounds of 6+ also inflict a Mortal Wound. They do practically the same thing only Illic is 80 points.
Mandragola wrote: In prep for the the UKGT heat last weekend a friend asked if he could still use his GK dreadnoughts with quad autocannons, using the options and points from the index (as twin autocannons don't have points in the codex).
He was told yes. That's about as "tournament official" as it gets.
That said, it does clearly need an FAQ. And actually I think it would be problematic to allow Autarchs to have reaper launchers under the current codex rules. The warlord trait that lets you pick out characters is not really ok if you then nuke them off the board with a heavy weapon, and the codex clearly isn't written with that understanding.
So I think there needs to be an FAQ to clarify the rule, but then they'll need to look for where that might cause problems. For instance they might change that warlord trait to say that it doesn't work with heavy weapons.
I don't think there's an issue with him sniping characters with the Reaper Launcher to be honest. Illic's sniper rifle now does 3 damage, hits on 2+, wounds on 2+ and save is at -3 (as opposed to -2 for the Reaper Launcher) and wounds of 6+ also inflict a Mortal Wound. They do practically the same thing only Illic is 80 points.
Overall happy for Eldar players. I'm not happy about their Chapter Tactics affecting their vehicles unlike Marines (which is almost completely unfair) nor am I happy that Prisms get Grinding Advance yet my Dune Crawlers get nothing of the sort, but the point changes as a whole are pretty darn good.
Of course that works only when datasheet has vanished from codex. If datasheet exists in codex but say misses options then that's the new up to date datasheet you are supposed to use. No option in datasheet=tough luck. Datasheet in older publication has been replaced by new one.
The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.
Not true. Dreadnought weapons are the prime example of how this works.
I'm quoting GW. That's quote from page linked above.
You have datasheet A. Datasheet gets replaced by newer version. The older version no longer exists.
If you have datasheet B meanwhile that got removed from codex(say autatch with warp jump generator or rough rider) THAT is usable.
This is what GW said. You arquing with GW?
Are you purposely being obtuse? It's pretty easy how it works.
1. Model doesn't have the same options? Use the index.
2. Are points updated? Use those points.
3. Are rules updated? Use those rules.
Basically an Index is kinda "pay to play" for the older folks.
Also I don't think your Commisar example works at all because the Commisar fix came from an FAQ/Errata not a codex.
tneva82 wrote:Yes yes good selective quote. Said page also says newer datasheet overwrites old one. Old one no longer exists. Your quote matters only when datasheet DISAPEARS like it did with warp spider jump generator autarch and rough riders.
Old datasheet does not exists once new comes. Otherwise you could nitpick datasheet you want. Old commisar? Sure go ahead. FAQ only deals with the codex entry so if you can use datasheet that's been updated legal play to take old style commisar from index.
This:
Matt.Kingsley wrote:If you think otherwise, why would they reference dreadnought weapons?
Dreadnoughts exist in both the index and the codex, but options like the twin autocannon have been removed.
Of course in case of the Autarch, you'd also have to use the old Path of Command and Banshee Mask rules from the index.
Did they quarantee you can use them on matched play?
GW has been clear on new datasheet replacing old one. If you can use old and new datasheets along then I'll take index commisars with 1 guy autopassing morale check then. Nothing like good old cherry picking.
Oh, did Commissars lose any wargear options? No?
Well then you can't.
Um, actually they did. They removed power mauls and axes, so thanks for the go ahead
tneva82 wrote:Yes yes good selective quote. Said page also says newer datasheet overwrites old one. Old one no longer exists. Your quote matters only when datasheet DISAPEARS like it did with warp spider jump generator autarch and rough riders.
Old datasheet does not exists once new comes. Otherwise you could nitpick datasheet you want. Old commisar? Sure go ahead. FAQ only deals with the codex entry so if you can use datasheet that's been updated legal play to take old style commisar from index.
This:
Matt.Kingsley wrote:If you think otherwise, why would they reference dreadnought weapons?
Dreadnoughts exist in both the index and the codex, but options like the twin autocannon have been removed.
Of course in case of the Autarch, you'd also have to use the old Path of Command and Banshee Mask rules from the index.
Did they quarantee you can use them on matched play?
GW has been clear on new datasheet replacing old one. If you can use old and new datasheets along then I'll take index commisars with 1 guy autopassing morale check then. Nothing like good old cherry picking.
Oh, did Commissars lose any wargear options? No?
Well then you can't.
Um, actually they did. They removed power mauls and axes, so thanks for the go ahead
Not really, but I was digging through my stash of models I've been gifted with over the years and found out I had two DKoK Commissars(one of them is the really nice event one rocking a helmet instead of a hat)...both with Laspistols.
Imagine my surprise when I was trying to find out if I could give them Laspistols.
Outside of a strict tournament list I think the wargear losses (while it sucks GW is going that way) are really easy to ignore when playing a game.
I can't think of a single player who would be upset if you said "Hey...these guys have laspistols instead of bolt pistols" etc. You have the stats for them in your book and they're on your model.
You want to model up a Primaris Captain with a power axe and a plasma pistol? Cool, go for it, just pay the points. As long as it's something reasonable which matches the unit type --- whatever. It's not going to break the game.
Elbows wrote: Outside of a strict tournament list I think the wargear losses (while it sucks GW is going that way) are really easy to ignore when playing a game.
I can't think of a single player who would be upset if you said "Hey...these guys have laspistols instead of bolt pistols" etc. You have the stats for them in your book and they're on your model.
You want to model up a Primaris Captain with a power axe and a plasma pistol? Cool, go for it, just pay the points. As long as it's something reasonable which matches the unit type --- whatever. It's not going to break the game.
Actually, Primaris Captains can use Powerfist and Plasma Pistols.
(wink) That's why I said power axe. But you get my point, if you want to equip someone with some legacy equipment which has been around since Rogue Trader - pay the points and I won't have an issue.
Again, want a Primaris Captain with twin lightning claws? Cool, just pay the points. It's not some massive hurdle unless you're being scrutinized for a tournament, etc.
Ulthwe was split down the middle, loads followed Eldrad out the door with Yvrain joining the Reborn Warhost, the rest stayed put and were unconvinced regarding Ynnead.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Elbows wrote: It's in the new 8th Eldar Codex - so perhaps new or from the Gathering Storm book?
It's not from the Fracture of Biel-Tan, so it's either new or from Rise of the Primarck.
admironheart wrote: So my understanding is that the base Autarch got a 5 point price increase. So now I want to use my Warp Jump Autarch with reaper launcher.
The weapon is fine...they say to use the new points which dropped from 31 to 25 I believe. Easy enough.
But the old Warp Jump Autarch was only 7 points more than the base Autarch. So with no point pricing for the Warp Jump we are getting the old index points essentially for 2 points more than the new higher priced Codex Autarch.
Or how would you go about pricing the index version with the current Codex?
AND it did say they can use Chapter Tactics as an example. Does this mean the warp jump generator Autarch has access to Warlord traits, relics, and other CWE strategems/etc????
Mandragola wrote: Yeah exactly. Neither option currently works. Or at least it works but doesn't make sense to get a jump generator for 2 points.
This is why I'm saying there need to be two parts to the FAQ. Part one needs to explain what the rules actually are, and part two needs to errata the index and codex in the light of that.
So for instance in part two you'd probably add 5 or more points to the cost of an autarch with jump generator, and you'd add a sentence to the codex warlord trait saying that you couldn't snipe characters with heavy weapons... with the possible exception of sniper rifles I guess.
Not quiet.
The basic Autarch and the Autarch with Wings have the same base cost as the index versions - however, they both now have fixed weapon options. As a result an Autach in the codex is 71 points, and with wings it is 98 points. The Warp Jump Autach in the index rocks in at 73 + weapons. But base to base, the Warp Jump is priced at 8 points. Your Autach would come in at 95 points BUT would not be able to deep strike unless it gets FAQd, as the new Warp Generators allow deepstrike (i believe), but the Index rules do not.
Not really, but I was digging through my stash of models I've been gifted with over the years and found out I had two DKoK Commissars(one of them is the really nice event one rocking a helmet instead of a hat)...both with Laspistols.
Imagine my surprise when I was trying to find out if I could give them Laspistols.
Not really, but I was digging through my stash of models I've been gifted with over the years and found out I had two DKoK Commissars(one of them is the really nice event one rocking a helmet instead of a hat)...both with Laspistols.
Imagine my surprise when I was trying to find out if I could give them Laspistols.
If you mean this guy:
He's actually a Quartermaster, not a Commissar.
Can't be a very good quartermaster. He's all skin and bones.
Am I the only person who is thrilled that D-scythes roll their D3 per model now, instead of per unit? Sure you are much less likely to get 15 hits, but this is a very good thing as it tones down their already great potential while simultaneously reducing the temptation to use a CP to influence the roll (this is good because we now have so many good stratagems, but still not a lot of CPs)
What I like most is that the chance of rolling only 1 hit per model is likewise reduced, giving a much more reliable unit without the need for extra CPs.
Galef wrote: Am I the only person who is thrilled that D-scythes roll their D3 per model now, instead of per unit?
Sure you are much less likely to get 15 hits, but this is a very good thing as it tones down their already great potential while simultaneously reducing the temptation to use a CP to influence the roll (this is good because we now have so many good stratagems, but still not a lot of CPs)
What I like most is that the chance of rolling only 1 hit per model is likewise reduced, giving a much more reliable unit without the need for extra CPs.
-
I agree. I hope they do they same thing to Orks with their Burnas (which had the exact same rule, but with MUCH worse weapons).
It leads to very swingy results, where one turn a unit will do 5 hits, and next turn 15. You can't rely on them.
Now, you can rely on doing an average 8/9 hits pretty much every turn. Some turns you'll be lucky, some you'll be unlucky, but it -should- end up being more reliable. For example, an "unlucky" roll might still include a couple of 2's among the 1's, giving you a 7 instead of a 5.
Does also mean you're unlikely to get 15's as often, obviously. but D-Scythes are probably overkill against a lot of units. I'd prefer a constant 7-13 hits, vs the occasional 5 leaving me vulnerable and the occasional 15 where 5 of the hits get wasted on dead models anyway.
Galef wrote: Am I the only person who is thrilled that D-scythes roll their D3 per model now, instead of per unit?
Sure you are much less likely to get 15 hits, but this is a very good thing as it tones down their already great potential while simultaneously reducing the temptation to use a CP to influence the roll (this is good because we now have so many good stratagems, but still not a lot of CPs)
What I like most is that the chance of rolling only 1 hit per model is likewise reduced, giving a much more reliable unit without the need for extra CPs.
-
I completely agree. Wraithguard rolling once for the whole unit was something I didn't like from the beginning, even though it wasn't exactly a bad thing.
The Runes of Battle rule is really nice. Each Eldar spell counts as 1 spell when selecting powers but counts as two different spells when casting them. So we could cast Quicken and Restrain in the same turn.
I don't want nor need a larger Avatar until his states properly reflect how powerful he should be. The statline definitely reflects the old, somewhat scant model --- which is fine. I don't see any point in having a Forgeworld sized Avatar with 8 wounds which succumbs to heavy bolter fire.
Red_Five wrote: The Runes of Battle rule is really nice. Each Eldar spell counts as 1 spell when selecting powers but counts as two different spells when casting them. So we could cast Quicken and Restrain in the same turn.
Elbows wrote: I don't want nor need a larger Avatar until his states properly reflect how powerful he should be. The statline definitely reflects the old, somewhat scant model --- which is fine. I don't see any point in having a Forgeworld sized Avatar with 8 wounds which succumbs to heavy bolter fire.
The Avatar is a Character, so he doesn't really have to worry about Heavy Bolters until his meatshields are chewed through. Given the Khaine Awakened rule, they are going to have to decimate the meatshields to a man (or close to it) to target the Avatar in the shooting phase.
Red_Five wrote: The Runes of Battle rule is really nice. Each Eldar spell counts as 1 spell when selecting powers but counts as two different spells when casting them. So we could cast Quicken and Restrain in the same turn.
That was in the index, I'm glad they've kept it.
Oh cool! I did not buy Xenos 1 as I did not think I would be playing Eldar for a long while... Then the codex started being revealed and I was hit with the Eldar bug
Out of interest, how do they compare? I’ve seen a video on YouTube comparing Magnus to the Wraithknight, but that was more about feet-to-wingtips. I mean, are they eye-to-eye like that picture? No one Tzeentchian in my group, so I can’t simply stand one next to the other...
Out of interest, how do they compare? I’ve seen a video on YouTube comparing Magnus to the Wraithknight, but that was more about feet-to-wingtips. I mean, are they eye-to-eye like that picture? No one Tzeentchian in my group, so I can’t simply stand one next to the other...
Ooops, you wanted Magnus compared to the Forge World Avatar. My bad.
In the novelizations I've read, the Avatar is described as being twice the height of an Eldar, which is roughly what its current GW model is... I understand that the concept of its grandeur makes it seem like it would be huge, and see why anyone would want to represent it as such, but I fail to see how where it is now really wouldn't be a pretty decent representation of the actual scale fluffwise
Sperron wrote: In the novelizations I've read, the Avatar is described as being twice the height of an Eldar, which is roughly what its current GW model is... I understand that the concept of its grandeur makes it seem like it would be huge, and see why anyone would want to represent it as such, but I fail to see how where it is now really wouldn't be a pretty decent representation of the actual scale fluffwise
The novelization was based in the GW model. If they made him twice his size now, in the future novels it will be a giant of lava.
Sperron wrote: In the novelizations I've read, the Avatar is described as being twice the height of an Eldar, which is roughly what its current GW model is... I understand that the concept of its grandeur makes it seem like it would be huge, and see why anyone would want to represent it as such, but I fail to see how where it is now really wouldn't be a pretty decent representation of the actual scale fluffwise
GW have changed the sizes of a lot of things, and the fluff has followed suit.
The artwork also pretty consistently shows the Avatar as larger than the existing model, at least nowadays. And they've already made bigger Avatars at Forgeworld.
Warning - if you have preordered items including made to order, there is a warning stating the whole order may be delayed up to 30 days... calling tomorrow to verify but why preorder for release and then put it on hold for 30 days...
Uriels_Flame wrote: Warning - if you have preordered items including made to order, there is a warning stating the whole order may be delayed up to 30 days... calling tomorrow to verify but why preorder for release and then put it on hold for 30 days...
Because the "Made to Order" stuff will take up to 30 days to do?
This happens every time there is a release with two different dates, and it's not strictly a GW thing. They send the fewest amount of packages possible and you get warned in advance to split the order into the "specials" and the "normals" to avoid things like you're talking about.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Warning - if you have preordered items including made to order, there is a warning stating the whole order may be delayed up to 30 days... calling tomorrow to verify but why preorder for release and then put it on hold for 30 days...
Huh, I guess because they expect you to want the items all shipped in one single order, and the made-to-order items have a 30 day wait time on them. I'd expect them to ship the preorder items as soon as they're ready.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Warning - if you have preordered items including made to order, there is a warning stating the whole order may be delayed up to 30 days... calling tomorrow to verify but why preorder for release and then put it on hold for 30 days...
Because the "Made to Order" stuff will take up to 30 days to do?
This happens every time there is a release with two different dates, and it's not strictly a GW thing. They send the fewest amount of packages possible and you get warned in advance to split the order into the "specials" and the "normals" to avoid things like you're talking about.
When I made my order there was no such warning. These days, if there isn't a warning during checkout, then items are shipped as soon as ready.
Back in the 'old days' then sure, you'd expect to wait, but since amazon became a thing it's no longer the standard. A lot of companies either have a specific warning, or they give you the option to split delivery.
Might have to contact GW myself, as I only had one item mixed in with my made-to-order order, and it'd be annoying to have to wait a month for it.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Warning - if you have preordered items including made to order, there is a warning stating the whole order may be delayed up to 30 days... calling tomorrow to verify but why preorder for release and then put it on hold for 30 days...
Huh, I guess because they expect you to want the items all shipped in one single order, and the made-to-order items have a 30 day wait time on them. I'd expect them to ship the preorder items as soon as they're ready.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Warning - if you have preordered items including made to order, there is a warning stating the whole order may be delayed up to 30 days... calling tomorrow to verify but why preorder for release and then put it on hold for 30 days...
Because the "Made to Order" stuff will take up to 30 days to do?
This happens every time there is a release with two different dates, and it's not strictly a GW thing. They send the fewest amount of packages possible and you get warned in advance to split the order into the "specials" and the "normals" to avoid things like you're talking about.
When I made my order there was no such warning. These days, if there isn't a warning during checkout, then items are shipped as soon as ready.
Back in the 'old days' then sure, you'd expect to wait, but since amazon became a thing it's no longer the standard. A lot of companies either have a specific warning, or they give you the option to split delivery.
Might have to contact GW myself, as I only had one item mixed in with my made-to-order order, and it'd be annoying to have to wait a month for it.
As Kanluwen points the order should be delayed due the made to order models. My local Redshirt warned me about that and told me to make 2 separate orders in order to get my pre-order items this weekend, whitout the need to wait for the made to order ones.
Yeah I had a warning pop up when I ordered my Bonesinger saying that it might take up to 31 days I think which is fine as I am not ordering anything else with it.
I thought it was very clear and was the same with my Daemonettes.
I pre-ordered the Bonesinger and the Swooping Hawk Autarch. I don't play Eldar, but getting some of these really cool characters is worth it. I like both of their poses (Autarch looks a lot better than the plastic, IMO). Who knows, maybe I will start a small Eldar army eventually.
Years ago when I was collecting models just for aestetic I had the Banshee mask autarch and the jump pack autarch. They dissappeared (into the webway I assume).
Nice - I don't much care for the model so I was going to make my own and peruse the web for its rules when they shipped - nice to see them show up for free! Woohoo.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: About on par with any other repair unit. If you don't like them yet, you're not going to like them still.
What else currently has the keyword "Warhost"?
I take it that he means things like the Enginseer or techmarine.
I think the bonesinger is overpriced at 70 points. I'd put him around 50. He's effectively unarmed, though I guess the option of casting smite instead of doing his actual job does give you options.
Mainly a fluff mini though I think, which is fine.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: About on par with any other repair unit. If you don't like them yet, you're not going to like them still.
What else currently has the keyword "Warhost"?
I take it that he means things like the Enginseer or techmarine.
I think the bonesinger is overpriced at 70 points. I'd put him around 50. He's effectively unarmed, though I guess the option of casting smite instead of doing his actual job does give you options.
Mainly a fluff mini though I think, which is fine.
That has nothing to do with what I asked.
What else, Eldar wise, has the keyword "Warhost"? Is this model the only one or what?
<--Doesn't have the Eldar Index and is curious to see.
I agree that 70 points is a bit much, but as an option when desired I can't complain. Curious model too - considering it only has Smite and a crappy hand to hand weapon to defend itself with. Pretty cool - I've ordered an old Warlock I'll be converting into one for when desired.
Oh, so they can put point values on data sheets after all.
Why the didn't they just do that in the first place, rather than fiddling about with an absurdist's nightmare of cross-referencing!
Oh, so they can put point values on data sheets after all.
Why the didn't they just do that in the first place, rather than fiddling about with an absurdist's nightmare of cross-referencing!
Great to have rules for this model. Running Iyanden, using this model plus strategem to rebuild wraith units is going to be great. Now to figure out if I can get 3 detachments into 2000pts (Battalion with guardians, rangers, Vanguard with x3 wraith units, supreme command with 3 warlocks). 8 CPs not bad for an Eldar force.
Another thing to point out on the Bonesinger that I think is unique to him... He doesn't repair at the end of his movement phase.
Normally, Meks and Enginseers etc do their repairs at the end of their movement phase. But the Bonesinger does his in the psychic phase instead.
I don't know if this actually matters, or has any pros or cons, I just found it interesting. Does mean he could move in his movement phase, then be moved again using the Eldar warptime ability in the psychic phase, and then do his healing after that. Probably wouldn't ever happen unless you desperately needed to heal a specific unit, but it's a thought.
Niiru wrote: Another thing to point out on the Bonesinger that I think is unique to him... He doesn't repair at the end of his movement phase.
Normally, Meks and Enginseers etc do their repairs at the end of their movement phase. But the Bonesinger does his in the psychic phase instead.
I don't know if this actually matters, or has any pros or cons, I just found it interesting. Does mean he could move in his movement phase, then be moved again using the Eldar warptime ability in the psychic phase, and then do his healing after that. Probably wouldn't ever happen unless you desperately needed to heal a specific unit, but it's a thought.
That's a good point and I can see where that could be decisive in a battle.
Oaka wrote: It also looks like he can repair as a Soulburst action for a Ynnari army.
I don't think so. Soulburst allows you to cast a psychic power as if it was the Psychic phase. The reknit ability may be used in the Psychic phase, but is not a psychic power
Oaka wrote: It also looks like he can repair as a Soulburst action for a Ynnari army.
I don't think so. Soulburst allows you to cast a psychic power as if it was the Psychic phase. The reknit ability may be used in the Psychic phase, but is not a psychic power
I agree with this interpretation, as the ability isn't technically a psychic power, unfortunately.
I'm interested to find out what units are listed as "Wraith Constructs". Currently that's not a keyword in the index, instead the Wraith units are listed as "Spirit Host". (who wan't to bet they've accidentally messed this up without realising they haven't added in the Construct keyword? ) It'd also be interesting to see whether they then clarify it to allow models within a unit to be brought back after dying similar to an apothecary.
As for 70 points, i think it's a bit much, but not by more. A spiritseer is 45 points, and a tech-priest enginseer is 52? so i see this as a kind of weird hybrid getting the best of both worlds and thus needs to be slightly more expensive than the enginseer.
Kdash wrote: It'd also be interesting to see whether they then clarify it to allow models within a unit to be brought back after dying similar to an apothecary.
The rule reads "pick a model", not unit. So it cannot bring models back since you cannot select a non-existent model.
I'm interested to find out what units are listed as "Wraith Constructs". Currently that's not a keyword in the index, instead the Wraith units are listed as "Spirit Host". (who wan't to bet they've accidentally messed this up without realising they haven't added in the Construct keyword? )
Wraithguard, Wraithblades, Wraithlord, Hemlock Wraithfighter and Wraithknight have the Wraith Construct keyword.
Yep, I see nothing relating to resurrecting anything. It's an expensive curious character, but it's nice to finally have a little option to aid distressed vehicles. It is an Elite choice too, which is also a bit odd (but seen in many other codices).
Oaka wrote: It also looks like he can repair as a Soulburst action for a Ynnari army.
I don't think so. Soulburst allows you to cast a psychic power as if it was the Psychic phase. The reknit ability may be used in the Psychic phase, but is not a psychic power
I agree with this interpretation, as the ability isn't technically a psychic power, unfortunately.
I'm interested to find out what units are listed as "Wraith Constructs". Currently that's not a keyword in the index, instead the Wraith units are listed as "Spirit Host". (who wan't to bet they've accidentally messed this up without realising they haven't added in the Construct keyword? ) It'd also be interesting to see whether they then clarify it to allow models within a unit to be brought back after dying similar to an apothecary.
As for 70 points, i think it's a bit much, but not by more. A spiritseer is 45 points, and a tech-priest enginseer is 52? so i see this as a kind of weird hybrid getting the best of both worlds and thus needs to be slightly more expensive than the enginseer.
It's basically an enginseer with smite, or perhaps a better comparison would be a Warpsmith.
A Chaos Warpsmith can heal D3 wounds per turn, or he can "curse" an enemy vehicle for 1 mortal wound. He comes with a meltagun, power axe and mechatendrils for 67 points.
For about the same cost, the Bonesinger instead can "curse" (Smite) any unit he likes, for D3 (or even up to D6) mortal wounds. He can also deny a power. So his "power" is better than the Warpsmith, but he doesn't have a meltagun or mechatendrils which make the Warpsmith a nasty fighter.
So yeh, Bonesinger is probably about 17 points overpriced - the price of the meltagun. If it wasn't for that, it would probably be comparable.
It's basically an enginseer with smite, or perhaps a better comparison would be a Warpsmith.
A Chaos Warpsmith can heal D3 wounds per turn, or he can "curse" an enemy vehicle for 1 mortal wound. He comes with a meltagun, power axe and mechatendrils for 67 points.
For about the same cost, the Bonesinger instead can "curse" (Smite) any unit he likes, for D3 (or even up to D6) mortal wounds. He can also deny a power. So his "power" is better than the Warpsmith, but he doesn't have a meltagun or mechatendrils which make the Warpsmith a nasty fighter.
So yeh, Bonesinger is probably about 17 points overpriced - the price of the meltagun. If it wasn't for that, it would probably be comparable.
The warpsmith also has a flamer. And the big difference is it can repair and still shoot, whereas the bonesinger can't repair and smite. So the bonesinger comes out waaay behind. 4++ doesn't compete with 2+ and marine stats either.
strateger wrote: I still dont understand why GW release first rules for an existing model 40% overcosted
That's easy (though as it does something unique for the faction I'm not sure it's that overcosted), since the model is a limited release GW don't want it to be a staple of the faction but rather a fun model to play if you have it. If you don't want something to accidentally become too good, you have to err on the side of caution.
I think it's better that way, I wouldn't want a top choice for an army to be available for one week only (plus any old ones floating around).
strateger wrote: I still dont understand why GW release first rules for an existing model 40% overcosted
That's easy (though as it does something unique for the faction I'm not sure it's that overcosted), since the model is a limited release GW don't want it to be a staple of the faction but rather a fun model to play if you have it. If you don't want something to accidentally become too good, you have to err on the side of caution.
I think it's better that way, I wouldn't want a top choice for an army to be available for one week only (plus any old ones floating around).
Plus, if you do compare it with an enginseer, it does have the interesting bonus of being able to heal wraithguard (who are essentially infantry) as well as vehicles. In fact, a squad of 5 wraithguard/blades in a serpent have 2 spare seats for characters. Usually one would be a spiritseer (or a warlock if you're desperate for points), leaving a spare seat... healing any damaged wraithguard back to full health every turn isn't a terrible idea. And if there's no damages guard, you could heal the wave serpent, or a nearby wraithlord. He's pretty versatile for a Wraith-heavy list.
Not 70 points maybe, but I'd say 50 or 60 wouldn't be terrible for him, as he is completely unique in the Eldar lists. So 70 isn't an awful stretch.
If only they had let him choose a single Runes of Battle power though. Then he would have been spot on.
Lorizael wrote: Plastic Aspects would be a huge investment, with no return guaranteed to be big enough.
The units are so unique in design and aesthetic, that it would be hard to dual-kit them (maybe Banshees/Hawks..?), so we're talking about investing in 6 new plastic infantry kits. And how many of each of those kits will each Aeldari player actually buy? Thousands need to be sold before GW even make the cost of the molds back.
I could see maybe one or two appearing at first, to test the water. But definitely not the whole Aspect range in one go.
Shining Spears could be added to Windriders with the addition of spears. Maybe some new heads.
Dire Avengers, Guardians, Storm Guardians, Striking Scorpions and Fire Dragons all basically use the same body. The only difference are the heads and arms. Leave Guardians as is, then make a Striking Scorpions/Storm Guardians box and a Fire Dragons/Dire Avenger box.
Warp Spiders and Dark Reapers, could go together. They have similar poses (dudes holding a fatty weapon). The big issue is how large the Spiders' backpack is.
That really only leaves Banshees. I could see GW making a new Aspect Warrior that uses the same body. Maybe some kind of fast, lithe shooty unit.
Uriels_Flame wrote: I would think in order to sell the model, the bonesinger would be about 50pts as well and able to repair and smite, not either or...
The Bonesinger is a fabled collector's item, a limited edition model from years ago. They were going to sell well even if they hadn't gotten any rules at all.
Uriels_Flame wrote: I would think in order to sell the model, the bonesinger would be about 50pts as well and able to repair and smite, not either or...
Before the reprint was announced, the model was going for 50-90 bucks on ebay. This guy will sell like hot cakes, regardless of its rules.
Uriels_Flame wrote: I would think in order to sell the model, the bonesinger would be about 50pts as well and able to repair and smite, not either or...
The Bonesinger is a fabled collector's item, a limited edition model from years ago. They were going to sell well even if they hadn't gotten any rules at all.
God forbid they don't give a collector item broken rules.
Lorizael wrote: Plastic Aspects would be a huge investment, with no return guaranteed to be big enough.
The units are so unique in design and aesthetic, that it would be hard to dual-kit them (maybe Banshees/Hawks..?), so we're talking about investing in 6 new plastic infantry kits. And how many of each of those kits will each Aeldari player actually buy? Thousands need to be sold before GW even make the cost of the molds back.
I could see maybe one or two appearing at first, to test the water. But definitely not the whole Aspect range in one go.
Shining Spears could be added to Windriders with the addition of spears. Maybe some new heads.
Dire Avengers, Guardians, Storm Guardians, Striking Scorpions and Fire Dragons all basically use the same body. The only difference are the heads and arms. Leave Guardians as is, then make a Striking Scorpions/Storm Guardians box and a Fire Dragons/Dire Avenger box.
Warp Spiders and Dark Reapers, could go together. They have similar poses (dudes holding a fatty weapon). The big issue is how large the Spiders' backpack is.
That really only leaves Banshees. I could see GW making a new Aspect Warrior that uses the same body. Maybe some kind of fast, lithe shooty unit.
It was a very odd decision to not make the Windriders a dual Shining Spear kit. I'm guessing it was simply an oversight rather than a conscious decision.
I think we have to accept some level of aesthetic homogenisation if we want plastic Aspect Warriors. Then it becomes a practical question of which Aspects couple well together in a dual kit. The main issue here isn't so much matching each Aspect with another but finding a combination of three different sets of two which work. Banshees and Hawks is a no brainer. Then the two most viable options are FD+DR and WS+SS or WS+DR and FD+SS. I prefer the first as I think WS lend themselves more to the more dynamic poses of a close combat unit such as SS.
Personally I still love the current line but not in Finecast and Pewter versions seem to cost a fortune on Ebay.
Folks who keep quoting $100K for a mold are out of touch with reality. MAX per full size mold sprue is $20K USD and that is with them made in the USA. The 20K is also NOT the norm, the norm is under $10K. I'm sure even those of us with several metal and resin aspects would rebuy new plastics!
This is more a case of GW not wanting multi-part kits (they're still trying to smush the bitz sites) and remove focus from the bread and butter marines.
I too bought Made to Order bonesingers with 1-2 already in my collection, just for the parts and conversions!
Plus the model itself isn't bad as a stand-in for a Farseer or anything. You don't HAVE to use it as a Bonesinger. Just make sure you're consistent about wargear and stuff and literally no opponent will care.
Splog wrote: Plastic Aspects could be dual kitted with other Aspects, Dark Eldar units (Scorpions/Incubi), and/or new Ynnari units.
You'd have to make the dual kits based on poses/roles - leaping/agile --> banshees and hawks, with different torsos ala WHFB shadow warriors/avelorn rangers
heavy and slow --> reapers and dragons. You'd have to change up the feet or something to make things noticeable
medium +dynamic poses --> spiders and scorpions
Then chuck an extra sprue for shining spears into the jetbikes at bear minimum
leave avengers as is but put 10 in a box again
+/- new aspect, Khaine in his aspect of a fractured old man who's a part-time jobber to make ends meet
On topic, I'm more interested in the power levels, which seem to be ignored- I'd like to know what's going on with that as I'm going to take part in a slow grow league using those as a better balance than $$ cost or points cost. It's 25PL to begin, but the index PL values put the SC! Craftworlds as >25
Splog wrote: Plastic Aspects could be dual kitted with other Aspects, Dark Eldar units (Scorpions/Incubi), and/or new Ynnari units.
Yeah. But that's not how GW rolls these days. They didn't just release a plastic kit for an elite choice Eldar slot like Harlequins or an elite choice slot like Plague Marines/Rubric Marines. They turned all those into complete (mini-)armies. Presumably they'd do the same or nothing for Aspects.
Oh, so they can put point values on data sheets after all.
Why the didn't they just do that in the first place, rather than fiddling about with an absurdist's nightmare of cross-referencing!
I’ve switched to using the enhanced edition versions. These shoe the points when you click on a unit’s force org symbol. Way more convenient.
The problem with cross referencing was when there are loads of options to cost. Try adding up the price of a repulsor, for instance.
Splog wrote: Plastic Aspects could be dual kitted with other Aspects, Dark Eldar units (Scorpions/Incubi), and/or new Ynnari units.
Yeah. But that's not how GW rolls these days. They didn't just release a plastic kit for an elite choice Eldar slot like Harlequins or an elite choice slot like Plague Marines/Rubric Marines. They turned all those into complete (mini-)armies. Presumably they'd do the same or nothing for Aspects.
Aspects aren’t a sub faction though they’re a main part of the craftworld armies.
funny when I ordered mine the GW staffer said "how many" lol I just got 1. I still have the old metal Synth and Harp Bonsingers (3) from my 2nd edition days.
Curious how many wounds does the marine tech repair guy have? 4 as well?
I think the Bonesinger will be better suited to healing a Wave Serpent than a lot of the other 'wraith' constructs since they are so hard to put down anyways.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ISTHRA KASRA IS A WAY BETTER BoneSeer/BoneSinger weapon name than a psytronome shaper.
Anyways that is what the old name of it was when the first rules were released.
Ehldar wrote: Folks who keep quoting $100K for a mold are out of touch with reality. MAX per full size mold sprue is $20K USD and that is with them made in the USA. The 20K is also NOT the norm, the norm is under $10K. I'm sure even those of us with several metal and resin aspects would rebuy new plastics!
This is more a case of GW not wanting multi-part kits (they're still trying to smush the bitz sites) and remove focus from the bread and butter marines.
I too bought Made to Order bonesingers with 1-2 already in my collection, just for the parts and conversions!
Sorry but that’s demonstrably nonsense.
GW has released a tonne of multi-part kits in the last year alone, and even more if you go back over the last 3 years.
Ehldar wrote: Folks who keep quoting $100K for a mold are out of touch with reality. MAX per full size mold sprue is $20K USD and that is with them made in the USA. The 20K is also NOT the norm, the norm is under $10K. I'm sure even those of us with several metal and resin aspects would rebuy new plastics!
This is more a case of GW not wanting multi-part kits (they're still trying to smush the bitz sites) and remove focus from the bread and butter marines.
I too bought Made to Order bonesingers with 1-2 already in my collection, just for the parts and conversions!
Sorry but that’s demonstrably nonsense.
GW has released a tonne of multi-part kits in the last year alone, and even more if you go back over the last 3 years.
I have purchased a few of the Primaris kits. They are all muli-part plastic kits ,but they are also fixed posed so kit bashing using bits is not as easy as it was with the old marine kits. I could see this being a strategy to sell more whole kits as the parts aren't as valuable anymore.
We still don't know what's up with the new Start collecting box? On the GW online store it says: "This is a great-value box set that gives you an immediate collection of fantastic Aeldari miniatures, which you can assemble and use right away in games of Warhammer 40,000!".
But I didn't hear any rumors about different battlefield roles, so that box seems to still be unable to produce a battleforged force.
fresus wrote: We still don't know what's up with the new Start collecting box? On the GW online store it says: "This is a great-value box set that gives you an immediate collection of fantastic Aeldari miniatures, which you can assemble and use right away in games of Warhammer 40,000!".
But I didn't hear any rumors about different battlefield roles, so that box seems to still be unable to produce a battleforged force.
Two people grabbing random start collecting boxes that fit their personal tastes and duelling with them aren't going to care about being battleforged, anyone else will probably grab some extra stuff.
I wish they’d have added the Phoenix lords but in metal to the made to order, people are paying more than double the cost of the fine cast Webstore only versions in ebay.
fresus wrote: We still don't know what's up with the new Start collecting box? On the GW online store it says: "This is a great-value box set that gives you an immediate collection of fantastic Aeldari miniatures, which you can assemble and use right away in games of Warhammer 40,000!".
But I didn't hear any rumors about different battlefield roles, so that box seems to still be unable to produce a battleforged force.
It doesn't say anything about being a battleforged army just that you can use the models in 40k - which you can.
fresus wrote: We still don't know what's up with the new Start collecting box? On the GW online store it says: "This is a great-value box set that gives you an immediate collection of fantastic Aeldari miniatures, which you can assemble and use right away in games of Warhammer 40,000!".
But I didn't hear any rumors about different battlefield roles, so that box seems to still be unable to produce a battleforged force.
Two people grabbing random start collecting boxes that fit their personal tastes and duelling with them aren't going to care about being battleforged, anyone else will probably grab some extra stuff.
This seems to have been a common misconception, although deliberate vagueness from GW is probably closer to the truth.
8E had lots of "free rules" being touted, yet it turns out that the free rules are only for basic, non-points, play, and that should not have suprised anyone.
The term "Start Collecting" is exactly what it says, its a place to start getting into 40K, playing some basic simple games, whilst also providing existing players with a discounted source of units.
Sure, nothing on the box says you'll be able to play in matched play. It probably includes the rules for the units inside, which makes it playable with the free 40K pdf.
But it's still very odd that this is the only start collecting that can't be fielded as a patrol detachment. They only put plastic models in SC boxes, but dire avengers are about the same price as a war walker (1€ difference…), and are also an older plastic kit.
fresus wrote: If you order pre-order in a GW shop and have it delivered there, it's available on the release day. There might be something similar with other FLGS.
I have a friend who works for a GW store here in the States, and that store gets the new Codex books almost a week before the release date. Of course, they stay in the back until said release. My local FLGS gets the books on Friday in time for the release date the following day.
I have not ordered a book from GW directly since 4th edition Eldar, coincidentally. I got that in the mail two days before release (Thursday before that Saturday).
Is there a restriction to the number of them that you can use? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that while you are limited in matched play to 1 use of a specific stratagem per phase, anything that can be done pre-game is unlimited. So could you use the Webway stratagem to put more than 2 units in reserve? I imagine it would look something like this:
1 CP - 1 unit in reserves
3 CP - 2 units in reserves
4 CP - 3 units in reserves
6 CP - 4 units in reserves
and so on, until you have met the other limit of no more than 50% of your army starting in reserves.
I imagine like similar abilities it'll be FaQ'd to be one use only, otherwise nothing stops you from just using it twice to bring 2 units for 2CP rather than 3.
Pre-game stratagems like that generally have (or are FAQed with) a 'you can only use this once'. Like all the relic ones, so you can never have more than 3 relics, and can't just use the 1 CP ones twice to get a 1 CP discount.
Taganoth wrote: Quick question on the webway strike stratagem:
Is there a restriction to the number of them that you can use? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that while you are limited in matched play to 1 use of a specific stratagem per phase, anything that can be done pre-game is unlimited. So could you use the Webway stratagem to put more than 2 units in reserve? I imagine it would look something like this:
1 CP - 1 unit in reserves 3 CP - 2 units in reserves 4 CP - 3 units in reserves 6 CP - 4 units in reserves
and so on, until you have met the other limit of no more than 50% of your army starting in reserves.
Is this right, or am I daft?
Sadly I believe that the Stratagem itself says it can only be used once per game AND you cannot use both the Webway and Cloudstrike stratagems. It kinda ticks me off considering Eldar (all Aeldari) of all the factions should have the most access to this kind of deployment shenanigans. So why can we only deep strike/infiltrate 1-3 units, but Raven Guard and Alpha legion get as many as they have CPs?
Does anyone know if the Vehicle one at least allows units to disembark in the same turn it drops? Something tells me it does not allow this
Taganoth wrote: Quick question on the webway strike stratagem:
Is there a restriction to the number of them that you can use? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is my understanding that while you are limited in matched play to 1 use of a specific stratagem per phase, anything that can be done pre-game is unlimited. So could you use the Webway stratagem to put more than 2 units in reserve? I imagine it would look something like this:
1 CP - 1 unit in reserves
3 CP - 2 units in reserves
4 CP - 3 units in reserves
6 CP - 4 units in reserves
and so on, until you have met the other limit of no more than 50% of your army starting in reserves.
Is this right, or am I daft?
Sadly I believe that the Stratagem itself says it can only be used once per game AND you cannot use both the Webway and Cloudstrike stratagems. It kinda ticks me off considering Eldar (all Aeldari) of all the factions should have the most access to this kind of deployment shenanigans.
So why can we only deep strike/infiltrate 1-3 units, but Raven Guard and Alpha legion get as many as they have CPs?
Does anyone know if the Vehicle one at least allows units to disembark in the same turn it drops?
Something tells me it does not allow this
-
You disembark at the start of the movement phase, you deep strike at the end of the movement phase so sadly not but waveserpents are pretty awesome, you’re more than likely going to still have it on the board if you position it correctly.
I believe it doesn't allow you to deploy troops the turn it drops (like a drop pod).
the webway portal isn't bad being just 2 units except that it gimps you for characters wanting to come through too. An Ulthwe Strike Force (who should really be using this extensively) get to bring in 2 units, plus you can use warwalkers to outflank. It's not great but at least gives you a few units to change the vector of your attack.
For me I plan to just put a single wraithguard unit in the webway, frees up the points of taking a wave serpent. The 12" assault 1 weapon is not affected by the 9" distance required for deployment.
ill be deploying 2 squads of dire avengers in the webway for a turn 2 deployment, setting them up in range on a flank within 18" of the doomed targets. alaitoc will give them -1 to hit unless my opponent somehow gets within 12", I used to carry the DA in serpents but now I can save the points for other things.
Crusaderobr wrote: ill be deploying 2 squads of dire avengers in the webway for a turn 2 deployment, setting them up in range on a flank within 18" of the doomed targets. alaitoc will give them -1 to hit unless my opponent somehow gets within 12", I used to carry the DA in serpents but now I can save the points for other things.
I’ll also be running dire avengers although in the usual transported way, I don’t think they benefit too much from the alaitoc trait as your opponent is only 6” away from ignoring it if you’re in range of them, I’ll probably run biel tan and stick either wraith guard or fire dragons in the webway or possibly even howling banshees who will stop overwatch and only need to roll a 6 for the 9” charge, it’s perfect for them just to hold up an enemy unit for a couple of turns, with an exarch and the -1 to hit strategem most marines will be hitting them on 5s.
Quick question - someone in one of the video reviews mentioned that Banshees can charge 15" now ---- I assume that was a mis-quote, or did they get a change to the 12" charge rule?
Admittedly they have the capability to charge 15" (+3" to their roll) but I assumed they were still limited as a unit cannot charge an enemy unit outside of 12" regardless of speed. Has anyone seen if it's a special Banshee rule now expanding their threat range?
bullyboy wrote: I believe it doesn't allow you to deploy troops the turn it drops (like a drop pod).
the webway portal isn't bad being just 2 units except that it gimps you for characters wanting to come through too. An Ulthwe Strike Force (who should really be using this extensively) get to bring in 2 units, plus you can use warwalkers to outflank. It's not great but at least gives you a few units to change the vector of your attack.
For me I plan to just put a single wraithguard unit in the webway, frees up the points of taking a wave serpent. The 12" assault 1 weapon is not affected by the 9" distance required for deployment.
Personally I'm going with Wraithblades and a Spiritseer with Quicken for a 4" turn 1 charge.
Elbows wrote: Quick question - someone in one of the video reviews mentioned that Banshees can charge 15" now ---- I assume that was a mis-quote, or did they get a change to the 12" charge rule?
Admittedly they have the capability to charge 15" (+3" to their roll) but I assumed they were still limited as a unit cannot charge an enemy unit outside of 12" regardless of speed. Has anyone seen if it's a special Banshee rule now expanding their threat range?
Their new Acrobatic rule specifically allows them to declare charges from 15" instead of 12".
Galef wrote: So why can we only deep strike/infiltrate 1-3 units, but Raven Guard and Alpha legion get as many as they have CPs?
Maybe because they intend to nerf them in the upcoming Chapter Approved ? Just guessing...
Also possibly because the Raven Guard one only allows for a single RAVEN GUARD INFANTRY Unit?
You can't do 1-2-3 CPs to add more, it's 1 CP for a single Infantry Unit.
Just my opinion though.
Have I missed the FAQ that addressed this? The Raven Guard and Alpha Legions statagems that do this may only allow 1 unit per, but because you can use unlimited strats outside of a phase (which means deployment) they can use 5-6 CPs to Infiltrate 5-6 units.
The Eldar Stratagmes specifically say they can only be used once AND that you cannot use one if the other is being used. So Eldar can Infiltrate a MAX of 2 unit, while RG & AL can Infiltrate 10+ units if they have the CPs available.
Let's hope the Chapter Approved fixes this.
Galef wrote: So why can we only deep strike/infiltrate 1-3 units, but Raven Guard and Alpha legion get as many as they have CPs?
Maybe because they intend to nerf them in the upcoming Chapter Approved ? Just guessing...
Also possibly because the Raven Guard one only allows for a single RAVEN GUARD INFANTRY Unit?
You can't do 1-2-3 CPs to add more, it's 1 CP for a single Infantry Unit.
Just my opinion though.
Have I missed the FAQ that addressed this? The Raven Guard and Alpha Legions statagems that do this may only allow 1 unit per, but because you can use unlimited strats outside of a phase (which means deployment) they can use 5-6 CPs to Infiltrate 5-6 units.
The Eldar Stratagmes specifically say they can only be used once AND that you cannot use one if the other is being used. So Eldar can Infiltrate a MAX of 2 unit, while RG & AL can Infiltrate 10+ units if they have the CPs available.
Let's hope the Chapter Approved fixes this.
-
Oh no, Raven Guard and Alpha Legion specifically can infiltrate 10+ single infantry units that have not one but two specific keywords(Infantry and Raven Guard/Alpha Legion).
Even if it does get FAQ'd--I'm not seeing a problem. I'll see a problem if Alaitoc aren't allowed to do a similar thing though.
the full description is on miniwargamings review.
once per game, and not if you use cloudstrike, 1CP for 1 infantry or biker, and 3CP for 2
Exactly. And the Cloudstrike stratagem only works "if not using the Webway stratagem" So you have 2 Stratagem that cannot be used more than once under any circumstance, nor can one be used in the same game as the other.
So in Matched play, Eldar can "special deploy" as MAX of 2 units...EVER
I am not ok with Imperium and Chaos being able to do a thing more often than Eldar when that thing has been portrayed as an Eldar speciality.
So either the RG/AL strats need to be FAQ'd to only work once per game, or the Eldar strats need to become unlimited too.
the full description is on miniwargamings review.
once per game, and not if you use cloudstrike, 1CP for 1 infantry or biker, and 3CP for 2
Exactly. And the Cloudstrike stratagem only works "if not using the Webway stratagem" So you have 2 Stratagem that cannot be used more than once under any circumstance, nor can one be used in the same game as the other.
So in Matched play, Eldar can "special deploy" as MAX of 2 units...EVER
I am not ok with Imperium and Chaos being able to do a thing more often than Eldar when that thing has been portrayed as an Eldar speciality.
So either the RG/AL strats need to be FAQ'd to only work once per game, or the Eldar strats need to become unlimited too.
-
There's no per-game limit on cloudstrike. You can deepstrike any number of FLY VEHICLES.
the full description is on miniwargamings review.
once per game, and not if you use cloudstrike, 1CP for 1 infantry or biker, and 3CP for 2
Exactly. And the Cloudstrike stratagem only works "if not using the Webway stratagem" So you have 2 Stratagem that cannot be used more than once under any circumstance, nor can one be used in the same game as the other.
So in Matched play, Eldar can "special deploy" as MAX of 2 units...EVER
I am not ok with Imperium and Chaos being able to do a thing more often than Eldar when that thing has been portrayed as an Eldar speciality.
So either the RG/AL strats need to be FAQ'd to only work once per game, or the Eldar strats need to become unlimited too.
-
Just so we're clear:
Yours works as a FACTION thing. It's not a SPECIFIC thing. If it were Alaitoc only, I'd be okay with your proposal.
Until Raven Guard and Alpha Legion get their benefits on vehicles, flyers, and things of that nature--zero sympathy.
There's no per-game limit on cloudstrike. You can deepstrike any number of FLY VEHICLES.
Can anyone confirm this as it would be great. The Webway stratagem specifically says it can only be used once per battle. If the Cloudstrike stratagem does not have this restriction, I'll shut up (although Deep Striking Infantry/Bikes would have been better).
There's no per-game limit on cloudstrike. You can deepstrike any number of FLY VEHICLES.
Can anyone confirm this as it would be great. The Webway stratagem specifically says it can only be used once per battle. If the Cloudstrike stratagem does not have this restriction, I'll shut up (although Deep Striking Infantry/Bikes would have been better).
Except that wouldn't make sense, since Cloudstrike was the name they used for an Apocalypse formation back in the day--it was just Grav Tanks.
There's no per-game limit on cloudstrike. You can deepstrike any number of FLY VEHICLES.
Can anyone confirm this as it would be great. The Webway stratagem specifically says it can only be used once per battle. If the Cloudstrike stratagem does not have this restriction, I'll shut up (although Deep Striking Infantry/Bikes would have been better).
I can confirm. Cloudstrike can't be used if you use Webway Strike, but it can be used any number of times as long as you can pay for it.
Kanluwen wrote: Except that wouldn't make sense, since Cloudstrike was the name they used for an Apocalypse formation back in the day--it was just Grav Tanks.
Oh, Cloudstrike is a fine name for Vehicles to Deep Strike, I was referring to the ability to Deep Strike Infantry, rather than Infiltrate them. I would rather be able to Deep Strike as many Infantry/Bike units (a la, Black Guardians of the last edition) and only be able to drop in 1-2 Vehicle units.
Cream Tea wrote: I can confirm. Cloudstrike can't be used if you use Webway Strike, but it can be used any number of times as long as you can pay for it.
Thanks. That helps a bit. Still pretty tactically limiting.
so is it only 1 cloudstrike per round or can you get more than 1 stratagem per turn?
And the old Name was the War gear Card "Falcon Jets" that cost 15 points and made any elder grav unit bikes, vypers falcons or even the super heavy tempest able to deep strike
admironheart wrote: so is it only 1 cloudstrike per round or can you get more than 1 stratagem per turn?
And the old Name was the War gear Card "Falcon Jets" that cost 15 points and made any elder grav unit bikes, vypers falcons or even the super heavy tempest able to deep strike
Cloudstrike is used before the first turn, during deployment.
Also, both Webway Strike and Cloudstrike are deep strike, not infiltrate.
Garion wrote: Just got my codex, If anyone has questions ask away
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bonesingers can heal Wraithknights: they got the Wraith Construct keyword now
Any other rules regarding Ynnari? I know they do not benefit from the Craftworld Traits (-1 to hit, 6+++, and etc). Mostly interested on the wording on unlocking the CWE stratagems, relics, and WT.
does anyone have the forgeworld elder xenos book? Are the datafaxes available online?
Anyone with a link?
With the obvious FAQ and errata would it be better to get the digital forgeworld version? If so how do you use it and access it? Can you put it on your computer and on a smartphone/notebook?
the full description is on miniwargamings review.
once per game, and not if you use cloudstrike, 1CP for 1 infantry or biker, and 3CP for 2
Exactly. And the Cloudstrike stratagem only works "if not using the Webway stratagem" So you have 2 Stratagem that cannot be used more than once under any circumstance, nor can one be used in the same game as the other.
So in Matched play, Eldar can "special deploy" as MAX of 2 units...EVER
I am not ok with Imperium and Chaos being able to do a thing more often than Eldar when that thing has been portrayed as an Eldar speciality.
So either the RG/AL strats need to be FAQ'd to only work once per game, or the Eldar strats need to become unlimited too.
-
2 things:
1. As Kan pointed out, this isn't craftworld specific which is a totally new take on this sort of stratagem allowing you to pull some layered combos.
2. Raven G and Alpha legion don't get anything near as strong. Your not being accurate here, they get pregame infiltrate which means their pants are around their ankles when the enemy siezes 33% of the time with 1CP to reroll (if they need it).
It would have been utterly broken has they let them apply this to anything any number of times. Currently deepstrike, not infiltrate, is THE strongest special rule in the game. I am more then fine with this restriction being in place.
Closest analog currently is Lucius who can teleport any number of things, but luckily admech doesn't even come close to having the units worth synerrgizing with this to be broken. They basically get to keep some incredibly expensive things safe for a turn. They also don't have 18" warp time on the cheapest reliable casters in the game currently. Food for thought.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
admironheart wrote: does anyone have the forgeworld elder xenos book? Are the datafaxes available online?
Anyone with a link?
With the obvious FAQ and errata would it be better to get the digital forgeworld version? If so how do you use it and access it? Can you put it on your computer and on a smartphone/notebook?
thanks
I have it, it was only 28 bucks off ebay. If and when they FAQ it I'll just print off the changes and put them in the book.
@ Red Corsiar: You are correct in that I was not being accurate. I was under the impression that the CW stratagems in question were Infiltrate and Deep Strike respectively. It turns out that they are both Deep Strike, which is much better as it does not become useless if you don't get first turn.
So being limited is fair. I was just miffed that Eldar seemed to be getting less deployment shenanigans (which is their preferred style of war) than other armies. Having heard a few more reports seems to indicate that Eldar have a few decent tricks, so all is fine.
Galef wrote: @ Red Corsiar: You are correct in that I was not being accurate. I was under the impression that the CW stratagems in question were Infiltrate and Deep Strike respectively. It turns out that they are both Deep Strike, which is much better as it does not become useless if you don't get first turn.
So being limited is fair. I was just miffed that Eldar seemed to be getting less deployment shenanigans (which is their preferred style of war) than other armies. Having heard a few more reports seems to indicate that Eldar have a few decent tricks, so all is fine.
No worries, it's tough keeping all this straight without the actual book in hand yet. I have a feeling that stratagem is going to make eldar VERY scary to play against.
Garion wrote: Just got my codex, If anyone has questions ask away
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bonesingers can heal Wraithknights: they got the Wraith Construct keyword now
Any other rules regarding Ynnari? I know they do not benefit from the Craftworld Traits (-1 to hit, 6+++, and etc). Mostly interested on the wording on unlocking the CWE stratagems, relics, and WT.
so..
Craftworld Detachment = any detachment that include only Craftworld units
Craftworld unit / Craftworld Warlord = a unit or a warlord with the Asuryani keyword
If a detachment include any unit with the Ynnari keyword, that detachment is NOT a Craftworld Detachment
A Craftworld Detachment gain the following abilities:
- Path of war == objective secured
- Craftworld Attributes : if your army is BattleForged you gain a Craftworld Attribute if all it's units are from the same Craftworld.
The Craftworld Attributes are the one we alredy known (-1 to hit for Alaitoc, etc etc)
You ignore the Phonix Lords when you check if all the units are from the same Craftworld, but they don't benefict from the attribute
Stratagems: you gain access to them if you army is BattleForged and it includes ANY Craftworld Detachments (except the aux one)
Warlord Traits: you can use them if your warlord is a Craftworld Character. A Craftworld specific Warlord Trait is avalible only to Warlord from the corresponding Craftworld
Relics : if your Warlord is a Craftworld Warlord you can assign the relics to an Asuryani Character (not the Named ones)
I have a feeling that Dark Eldar will get unlimited Deep Strike abilities. Very fluffy, but probably too strong. Either GW will piss off the fluff bunnies by not giving them a true Webway army, or they piss off the rest of the community by making DE way too strong.
Either way it's gonna be a heck of a ride
Garion wrote: Just got my codex, If anyone has questions ask away
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bonesingers can heal Wraithknights: they got the Wraith Construct keyword now
Any other rules regarding Ynnari? I know they do not benefit from the Craftworld Traits (-1 to hit, 6+++, and etc). Mostly interested on the wording on unlocking the CWE stratagems, relics, and WT.
so..
Craftworld Detachment = any detachment that include only Craftworld units
Craftworld unit / Craftworld Warlord = a unit or a warlord with the Asuryani keyword
If a detachment include any unit with the Ynnari keyword, that detachment is NOT a Craftworld Detachment
A Craftworld Detachment gain the following abilities:
- Path of war == objective secured
- Craftworld Attributes : if your army is BattleForged you gain a Craftworld Attribute if all it's units are from the same Craftworld.
The Craftworld Attributes are the one we alredy known (-1 to hit for Alaitoc, etc etc)
You ignore the Phonix Lords when you check if all the units are from the same Craftworld, but they don't benefict from the attribute
Stratagems: you gain access to them if you army is BattleForged and it includes ANY Craftworld Detachments (except the aux one)
Warlord Traits: you can use them if your warlord is a Craftworld Character. A Craftworld specific Warlord Trait is avalible only to Warlord from the corresponding Craftworld
Relics : if your Warlord is a Craftworld Warlord you can assign the relics to an Asuryani Character (not the Named ones)
So if you take a Ynnari detachment (one of the Ynnari characters HAS TO BE your warlord) for that detachment you lose access to Craftworld Warlord Traits, Relics, Unique Craftworld attributes and stratagems. Ynnari detachments would only have access to non unique Craftworld stratagems (and that is providing there is at least 1 CWE detachment in your army).
Red Corsair wrote: 2. Raven G and Alpha legion don't get anything near as strong. Your not being accurate here, they get pregame infiltrate which means their pants are around their ankles when the enemy siezes 33% of the time with 1CP to reroll (if they need it).
It would have been utterly broken has they let them apply this to anything any number of times. Currently deepstrike, not infiltrate, is THE strongest special rule in the game. I am more then fine with this restriction being in place.
One problem with this has though it's totally unscalable rule. Effect is bigger the smaller the game is while the bigger the game goes the smaller the effect. As a fan of non-standard point sizes that would be annoying if we had eldar army here(well I have partial force but too small still to be usable in 8th ed. It's workable as 2nd ed ally force)
Garion wrote: Just got my codex, If anyone has questions ask away
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bonesingers can heal Wraithknights: they got the Wraith Construct keyword now
Any other rules regarding Ynnari? I know they do not benefit from the Craftworld Traits (-1 to hit, 6+++, and etc). Mostly interested on the wording on unlocking the CWE stratagems, relics, and WT.
so..
Craftworld Detachment = any detachment that include only Craftworld units
Craftworld unit / Craftworld Warlord = a unit or a warlord with the Asuryani keyword
If a detachment include any unit with the Ynnari keyword, that detachment is NOT a Craftworld Detachment
A Craftworld Detachment gain the following abilities:
- Path of war == objective secured
- Craftworld Attributes : if your army is BattleForged you gain a Craftworld Attribute if all it's units are from the same Craftworld.
The Craftworld Attributes are the one we alredy known (-1 to hit for Alaitoc, etc etc)
You ignore the Phonix Lords when you check if all the units are from the same Craftworld, but they don't benefict from the attribute
Stratagems: you gain access to them if you army is BattleForged and it includes ANY Craftworld Detachments (except the aux one)
Warlord Traits: you can use them if your warlord is a Craftworld Character. A Craftworld specific Warlord Trait is avalible only to Warlord from the corresponding Craftworld
Relics : if your Warlord is a Craftworld Warlord you can assign the relics to an Asuryani Character (not the Named ones)
So if you take a Ynnari detachment (one of the Ynnari characters HAS TO BE your warlord) you lose access to Craftworld Warlord Traits, Relics, Unique Craftworld attributes and stratagems. Ynnari detachments would only have access to non unique Craftworld stratagems.
You lose access to Warlord Traits and Relics, but the Attributes will still apply to units in your CWE detachments, and Stratagems will apply to any unit that has the keyword that the stratagem applies to, Asuryani units for example can still benefit for stratagems even if they also have the Ynnari keyword. Another important note is that being Ynnari does not prevent a unit for selecting a <Craftwolrd>, only the attribute.
Fafnir wrote: Does the Avatar get access to relics? Or does it also count as a named character? Moreover, what warlord trait does he get?
If we ignore the fact that there are, fluffwise, many Avatars of Khaine, he has the same "one per army" restriction as Prince Yriel &co and he has a weapon with a name like a relic (the Wailing Doom). I'd say he's a named character and thus can't be given a Remnant of Glory.
He doesn't have a specific Craftworld unlike Yriel and friends, so you pick one for him. However, since he is like a named character in other respects, I'd argue you have to pick the corresponding "named character trait" for the craftworld you choose for him.
Anyone know if the Phoenix lords come with specific warlord traits, I’d imagine they do but giving maugan ra the sniper trait might be fun, although it would also fit him well so it might be his trait already.
Mantle wrote: Anyone know if the Phoenix lords come with specific warlord traits, I’d imagine they do but giving maugan ra the sniper trait might be fun, although it would also fit him well so it might be his trait already.
They don't get Warlord Traits at all, nor do they gain craftworld traits. You can still bring them in an Alaitoc detachment without breaking its "alaitocness" though.
There's no per-game limit on cloudstrike. You can deepstrike any number of FLY VEHICLES.
Can anyone confirm this as it would be great. The Webway stratagem specifically says it can only be used once per battle. If the Cloudstrike stratagem does not have this restriction, I'll shut up (although Deep Striking Infantry/Bikes would have been better).
Except that wouldn't make sense, since Cloudstrike was the name they used for an Apocalypse formation back in the day--it was just Grav Tanks.
Yeah, and they're using Pathfinder in the name of one of the stratagems now when they used to be enhanced Rangers (before Tau bogarted the name Pathfinder)
There's no per-game limit on cloudstrike. You can deepstrike any number of FLY VEHICLES.
Can anyone confirm this as it would be great. The Webway stratagem specifically says it can only be used once per battle. If the Cloudstrike stratagem does not have this restriction, I'll shut up (although Deep Striking Infantry/Bikes would have been better).
Except that wouldn't make sense, since Cloudstrike was the name they used for an Apocalypse formation back in the day--it was just Grav Tanks.
Yeah, and they're using Pathfinder in the name of one of the stratagems now when they used to be enhanced Rangers (before Tau bogarted the name Pathfinder)
Quite a few strategems take their names from old apoc or other formations, or old unit options.
Red Corsair wrote: 2. Raven G and Alpha legion don't get anything near as strong. Your not being accurate here, they get pregame infiltrate which means their pants are around their ankles when the enemy siezes 33% of the time with 1CP to reroll (if they need it).
It would have been utterly broken has they let them apply this to anything any number of times. Currently deepstrike, not infiltrate, is THE strongest special rule in the game. I am more then fine with this restriction being in place.
One problem with this has though it's totally unscalable rule. Effect is bigger the smaller the game is while the bigger the game goes the smaller the effect. As a fan of non-standard point sizes that would be annoying if we had eldar army here(well I have partial force but too small still to be usable in 8th ed. It's workable as 2nd ed ally force)
Except it is scalable. It's got two buy in costs. One for smaller games around 1k and another for the 2k mark, although you can use either cost at either point level. Anything beyond that and your on your own. The designers clearly state what the optimal point levels are in matched play. If you want to play a larger game then like relics I'd simply suggest house ruling the costs. It isn't as if GW will show up from under your gaming table to piss in your Cheerios for making it work for your situation.
Was there any change to the Striking Scorpion rule that they get +1 hit when attacking a unit in cover? Like, did they specify shooting?
Most people seem to assume it's shooting only, although I think it'd be worthy of a YMDC. I'd love it if it worked in CC as well (and would really make sense).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Infiltrate would be broken for CWE. Many of our units only drawbacks are being short range infantry and not very durable. Infiltrate would ignore that 70% of the time. Other units have obscene movement, but if you let an Aspect Host get everything into optimal range of it's optimal target, it kills anything.
I'm trying to justify using a Wraithknight even though the points cost remains the same, but am I right in assuming I can run a Ynnari army exactly as before and add a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment of whichever craftworld Wraithknight I want to access the stratagems? I had read that Auxiliary detachments don't count as craftworld detachments but didn't know if that was just the auxiliary -1 CP detachments or if it also applied to the super heavy auxiliary detachment. Also, do all the rules reference Asuryani units or did anything sneak in that works on Aeldari units that Dark Eldar may be able to use?
Otherwise looking forward to trying out some new rules, probably by adding in 200 points of Illic and rangers as an Alaitoc detachment to gain access to them. When does the Fire and Fade stratagem trigger with a Soulburst if the Asuryani unit destroys an enemy unit with it's first round of shooting? If they both stack at the same time that's a 14" move after shooting, or 7" move and additional round of shooting.
Oaka wrote: I'm trying to justify using a Wraithknight even though the points cost remains the same, but am I right in assuming I can run a Ynnari army exactly as before and add a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment of whichever craftworld Wraithknight I want to access the stratagems? I had read that Auxiliary detachments don't count as craftworld detachments but didn't know if that was just the auxiliary -1 CP detachments or if it also applied to the super heavy auxiliary detachment.
It's only the Auxiliary detachment (the -1CP one) that doesn't count. Using a CWE Super Heavy detachment is a perfectly legal way to "unlock" access to CWE stratagems in an otherwise Ynnari army. Just don't make the WK a Ynnari model (why would you anyway)
Anyone posted this Stratagem yet (seen it on FB)? Feels powerful.
Forewarned
CW Stratagem
Use this Stratagem immediately after your opponent sets up a unit that is arriving on the battlefield as reinforcements within sigh of your craftworld units that is itself within 6 inches of a friendly craftworld farseer. Your unit can immediately shoot at the enemy unit as if were the shooting phase.
Is that the RAW? Because if so, it's nice to see some deepstrike defenses in this game for once that don't rely on lining your entire deployment zone with chaff.
str00dles1 wrote: Codex Dark Reapers! 2 CP to instantly kill any unit that deep strikes on the board
Would only work if you keep a farseer within 6" of those dark reapers for the whole game. Which might well be fine, but it does add 100 points to the cost of the unit, just to kill any deep strikers. And they can simply deepstrike somewhere out of line of sight of those particular dark reapers.
Only if you deep strike within 8" of a 10-man Scytheguard (and how do you do that?) or drop a pod in front of a 10-man Fire Dragon unit.
A 10-man Reaper squad will put a huge dent in anything. But it won't even wipe a 10-man Tac squad on average dice, sans support (which is limited, because it's out of phase).
So if they have a 10-man Reaper squad, think about if you really want to deepstrike, and with what...
Bharring wrote: Was there any change to the Striking Scorpion rule that they get +1 hit when attacking a unit in cover? Like, did they specify shooting?
Most people seem to assume it's shooting only, although I think it'd be worthy of a YMDC. I'd love it if it worked in CC as well (and would really make sense).
No change, why would it only work when shooting? I't pretty clear it's for any attacks.
str00dles1 wrote: Codex Dark Reapers! 2 CP to instantly kill any unit that deep strikes on the board
Would only work if you keep a farseer within 6" of those dark reapers for the whole game. Which might well be fine, but it does add 100 points to the cost of the unit, just to kill any deep strikers. And they can simply deepstrike somewhere out of line of sight of those particular dark reapers.
Well, deepstrike only works up to turn 3 and, realistically, it's only relevant turn 1 95% of the time (and turn 2 for the rest). So if you set up your Farseer next to Dark Reapers at the start of the game, it'll likely give your opponent something to think about when it matters most.
After that, use Farseer and Dark Reapers (both things you likely have anyways) as normal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fafnir wrote: Is that the RAW? Because if so, it's nice to see some deepstrike defenses in this game for once that don't rely on lining your entire deployment zone with chaff.
Funny enough, I think it works all right WITH chaff.
Should you have 20 fearless Alaitoc Guardians to bubble wrap and get a GK Grandmaster or something striking in to charge, he'll eat 60 Shuriken shots first from the Strategem, another 60 on Overwatch, and could face 20 Guardians with a 4++ using the other strategem. Situational, unlikely and CP overkill, but kinda fun.
Xenomancers wrote: 2 command points to eliminate a unit? That is kind of OPlol.
I feel this is more of a problem of a swiss terrain and greedy play usually not being punished. I wouldn't have any problem, if this Stratagem would be available to everyone.
@Cream Tea - Because people hear 'Cover' and think shooting. Once getting past doesn't-it-say-shooting, the claim typically has been cover is only a thing for shooting. I don't think the rules read that way, but didn't want to push it.
Bharring wrote: @Cream Tea - Because people hear 'Cover' and think shooting. Once getting past doesn't-it-say-shooting, the claim typically has been cover is only a thing for shooting. I don't think the rules read that way, but didn't want to push it.
The rules only say that you don't benefit from cover in the Fight phase, not that you're not considered to be in cover. Getting hit more easily isn't a benefit.
Make sure you compare rules with what you read online (and from the english book), the differences are severe. For example every Eldar unit gets 'objective secured', not only troops, in the german book. I don't buy german rules at all, so I cannot check what is wrong, but these are not just typos.
Buddy got me the scorpion dice and cards.
Unreasonably excited about the dice, they're the only aspect I routinely add to my armies, and I matched the colors to the codex when I painted them.
Damn, another codex with huge translation issues? It was bad enough with the IG codex, where the translation team seems to have assumed quite a lot of RAI... ogryn slab shields for instance only give +1 to armour saves in the german version, while its all saves in english... Never mind the horrible writing style theyve adopted lately (not translating names anymore doesnt help...)
Tyr13 wrote: Damn, another codex with huge translation issues? It was bad enough with the IG codex, where the translation team seems to have assumed quite a lot of RAI... ogryn slab shields for instance only give +1 to armour saves in the german version, while its all saves in english... Never mind the horrible writing style theyve adopted lately (not translating names anymore doesnt help...)
Is obvious that GW want to just make things in english. At this point I don't buy spanish translated things anymore, reading spanish with all the names in english is just horrible. Having random words like "Chaos" instead of "Caos" or "warp" instead of "Disformidad", heck, even "Imperium" instead of "Imperio" or basic things like "Space Marines" don't being translated anymore to "Marines Espaciales". Is painfull to read this sort of spanglish.
Bharring wrote: @Cream Tea - Because people hear 'Cover' and think shooting. Once getting past doesn't-it-say-shooting, the claim typically has been cover is only a thing for shooting. I don't think the rules read that way, but didn't want to push it.
The rules only say that you don't benefit from cover in the Fight phase, not that you're not considered to be in cover. Getting hit more easily isn't a benefit.
Also would like to add, the rules often differenciate between hit for shooting attacks or just Hit for all attacks (Guide is a quick example of such things)
Nice to see the defensive option against deepstrike (my Eldar have poor deepstrike ability whereas my CSM have a strong deepstrike ability).
I don't see it as broken as you'll be using it once for 2 CP and protecting yourself from one or two units at best. I would make this clear to your opponent before the game starts though - as that's a pretty crude thing to run into if you're not up to date on the new release.
Tyr13 wrote: Damn, another codex with huge translation issues? It was bad enough with the IG codex, where the translation team seems to have assumed quite a lot of RAI... ogryn slab shields for instance only give +1 to armour saves in the german version, while its all saves in english... Never mind the horrible writing style theyve adopted lately (not translating names anymore doesnt help...)
Is obvious that GW want to just make things in english. At this point I don't buy spanish translated things anymore, reading spanish with all the names in english is just horrible. Having random words like "Chaos" instead of "Caos" or "warp" instead of "Disformidad", heck, even "Imperium" instead of "Imperio" or basic things like "Space Marines" don't being translated anymore to "Marines Espaciales". Is painfull to read this sort of spanglish.
It really is terrible, yeah... Makes me not even want to read the fluff... :/
Still, its one thing to not translate their copyrightable terms... but when even the rules are mistranslated, thats just a pretty huge issue. At least those should be fine. And if theyre not... :/
(another anecdote here: When my brother and I got SW:A, we couldnt find the CSM option for chainswords. However, chainfists were ridiculously cheap for some reason... turns out, they translated "chainsword" as "chainfist"... -__-)
Using Alatoic army with Autarch for Re-rolls today. It has been nice for me, not for opponent. Moving from hitting on 3’s to hitting on 4/5’s pending movement with heavy weapons has a dramatic effect. Moved to just using Shuriken Cannons on my Serpents and filling it with Dscythes and fusion guns for close damage has also been great.
Liking the changes and cheaper units for sure.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also: Alatoic warp spiders with flicker jump?
Use FieldCraft for the bulk of your army.
Use The Damned for the detachment units that are supposed to be up close and take a lot of hits
Use Wild Host Detachment for all your CC Aspects that your are throwing in your enemies face.
With that in mind I am going with 3 Detachments in a 2k game with 2 Battalions and a Vanguard for a set 10CP
WebWay, Forwarned, Concordance of Power, reroll, Celestial Shield, Fire and Fade That is 7. The other 3 can be for more critical reRolls, the extra Relic Strategem or Phantasm to really confuse the enemy on deployment.
I have enough units for a Brigade in that force but the army traits seem more valuable in a surgical strike army.
Oh, so they can put point values on data sheets after all.
didn't they just do that in the first place, rather than fiddling about with an absurdist's nightmare of cross-referencing!
