Have we thought about running scions as the troops portion of the AMCP battery? The reason I ask is they can deep strike in later in the game to cap objectives after the initial bloodletting happens. That way they won't give up first blood and it negates your opponents anti infantry weapons. Still need a place to hide the commander with Kurov's Aquila though. The other bonus is your first few drops can be null drops as you place the scions squads in reserve.
My biggest issue is your HQ is still squishy and has no friends and you can't use the regen if you have a deepstrike HQ.
Your scions are still better for objective capture than infantry squads though Imho. But should you try and add the psychic defence or CC ability your paying close to marine prices with more drops.
1. If the new standard is 1750, it's going to be close to impossible to have 3 knights and still have a screen or really anything other than those 3 knights,with the exception of a bare minimum guard detachment.
2. which sounds better.
Warden and errant or crusader and gallant. Either combination has the same total weapons and damage output, just distributed between the two differently, and almost identical point cost. Normally I'd say in 40k specializing is always better, but when 50% of your army is 2 units having them both able to fight and shoot seems to be better than conventional 40k logic. You won't lose all of your shooting when 1 goes down.
3. Anyone know from leaks yet if the aux Superheavy lets you make that singular knight a character or is it only if you take the detachment requiring 3.
Instead of 3 knights I'm looking at only taking 2, each in heir own super heavy aux so there are still points for some allied space marines for point holding. Or if I have to take 3 to get characters, 2 knights + armiger. (I realize this won't give CP, I'm more concerned with the being able to take warlord traits and relics than the loss of the 3 CP.)
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Cptn_Snuggles wrote: Have we thought about running scions as the troops portion of the AMCP battery? The reason I ask is they can deep strike in later in the game to cap objectives after the initial bloodletting happens. That way they won't give up first blood and it negates your opponents anti infantry weapons. Still need a place to hide the commander with Kurov's Aquila though. The other bonus is your first few drops can be null drops as you place the scions squads in reserve.
That's was my initial idea too. Only reason I'm not is because I already have a ton of space marines I've been looking for an excuse to paint. IMHO scions will be the most optimal choice to run with knights.
Danny slag wrote: 1. If the new standard is 1750, it's going to be close to impossible to have 3 knights and still have a screen or really anything other than those 3 knights,with the exception of a bare minimum guard detachment.
3 questor class and a minimum battalion of marines is possible working out exact points but its possible
2. which sounds better.
Warden and errant or crusader and gallant. Either combination has the same total weapons and damage output, just distributed between the two differently, and almost identical point cost. Normally I'd say in 40k specializing is always better, but when 50% of your army is 2 units having them both able to fight and shoot seems to be better than conventional 40k logic. You won't lose all of your shooting when 1 goes down.
3. Anyone know from leaks yet if the aux Superheavy lets you make that singular knight a character or is it only if you take the detachment requiring 3.
only if you use the strategum to give him a relic or warlord trait and they don't get house hold traditions in aux
Instead of 3 knights I'm looking at only taking 2, each in heir own super heavy aux so there are still points for some allied space marines for point holding. Or if I have to take 3 to get characters, 2 knights + armiger. (I realize this won't give CP, I'm more concerned with the being able to take warlord traits and relics than the loss of the 3 CP.)
Answers in bold and don't do double auxiliary its jus flat out tge worst way to run knights even 2 plus helvine is better.
Danny slag wrote: 1. If the new standard is 1750, it's going to be close to impossible to have 3 knights and still have a screen or really anything other than those 3 knights,with the exception of a bare minimum guard detachment.
3 questor class and a minimum battalion of marines is possible working out exact points but its possible
2. which sounds better.
Warden and errant or crusader and gallant. Either combination has the same total weapons and damage output, just distributed between the two differently, and almost identical point cost. Normally I'd say in 40k specializing is always better, but when 50% of your army is 2 units having them both able to fight and shoot seems to be better than conventional 40k logic. You won't lose all of your shooting when 1 goes down.
3. Anyone know from leaks yet if the aux Superheavy lets you make that singular knight a character or is it only if you take the detachment requiring 3.
only if you use the strategum to give him a relic or warlord trait and they don't get house hold traditions in aux
Instead of 3 knights I'm looking at only taking 2, each in heir own super heavy aux so there are still points for some allied space marines for point holding. Or if I have to take 3 to get characters, 2 knights + armiger. (I realize this won't give CP, I'm more concerned with the being able to take warlord traits and relics than the loss of the 3 CP.)
Answers in bold and don't do double auxiliary its jus flat out tge worst way to run knights even 2 plus helvine is better.
Thank you!
More questions. Someone earlier just mentioned that imperium is no longer a keyword...so how can knight ally with anything if that's true? Seems like that would be the only keyword they'd share with anything else.
tneva82 wrote: 18 shots hitting 3+ with reroll. 14 hits rather than 12, 1/6 increase.
12 shots, 4+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.
18 shots, 5+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.
36 shots, 6+, 7 hits rather than 6, 1/6 boost.
1/6 boost seems pretty consistent.
Yes because your increaseing the success rate by 1/6 which is factoring in the chance of success
His calculations were based on directly increaseing the success by 1/6 giving you
15 hits, 8 hits, 9 hits 12 hits which is why yours are right and his isn't.
However if you look at your two 18 shot examples the first gives you an increase of 2/18 the second 1/18. Youve gained more successfull shots from rerolling 1's in the first rather than the second.
Its absolute success's that matter not relative ones
So, it is essentially 16% more hits, but, if it helps to break it down here is how i generally do the math via excel.
Number of shots / 6 * chance of hitting - i.e (18/6)*4 for when you're hitting on 3's.
Total shots - total hits / chance of 1's - i.e (18-12)/2 - only missing on 1's and 2's, so chance of 1's is half.
Total 1's / 6 * chance of hitting - i.e. (3/6)*4
Add original hits to re-roll 1's to hit.
Bit of a ball ache at first glance, but it helps break things down in steps for people that aren't happy doing it all in one formula.
No you increase the number of successfull hits not hits theres a huge difference
I suggested scions as an allied option a couple of pages back. I particularly like how you can have small squads which you can fit into transports - which as a bonus are pretty good units themselves. Knights have a horde problem and you could do a lot worse than a couple of Taurox Primes for dealing with it.
Here's how a 1750 point list might look. At 2k I'd drop a prime and add a 4th knight.
Knight Lance
Crusader 473
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber
Ironstorm Missile Pod
Crusader 473
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber
Ironstorm Missile Pod
Gallant 354
Reaper Chainsword
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Heavy Stubber
Militarum Tempestus Battalion
Lord Commissar 31
Bolt pistol
Chainsword
Lord Commissar 31
Bolt pistol
Chainsword
5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol
5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol
5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol
Taurox Prime 124
Taurox Gatling Cannon
2 Autocannon
Taurox Prime 114
Taurox Gatling Cannon
2 Hotshot Volley Guns
An auxiliary detachment doesn't let you pick a house, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't unlock stratagems. It's the superheavy detachment where you get to make one of your guys a character.
Stratagems would let you pay CPs to upgrade your guy, if you get them, but I don't think you do.
A better idea might be to take an armiger. You don't get CPs unless you bring 3 big knights but you get to make one a character and you do unlock stratagems, relics and house traits. I think this means it makes way more sense to bring a knight and two little friends if you're bringing knight allies than just the knight on his own. The armigers are good anyway.
Scions do seem the way to go.
Personally I'm going to have to ally in space marines because that's what I have.
Rough math my 1750 list comes out to essentially:
Crusader
Gallant
Armiger
2 watch captains
3x5 intercessor squads with an inceptor in each
The marine portion of that is 650 pts. Still would rather have scions, but intercessors with SIA and auto bolters are kinda nasty. Plus mine all have the shoulder shield that aesthetically matches the knights and looks cool, and looking cool makes your dice roll better according to science.
Deathwatch is certainly another good option. Your troops are ok and you can have a librarian too. It's an option where no unit is a tax or a liability. They even help quite a bit with hordes.
I think I'd personally keep the points down, with just 3 units of 5 intercessors. I don't think it's worth including an inceptor unless you've got a bunch of other stuff in there. If I was going to add stuff I'd put 4 aggressors and an inceptor into one squad, then leave the other 2 barebones with bolt rifles. Those are good units for 100 points.
I can just make my ultramarine batallion and Canis Crusader and warden fix into a 1750 list. But thats squeezing the marines down to 430 points. At 2k I can add a helverin and some carapace weapons and a few extras for the boots on the ground.
Mandragola wrote: I suggested scions as an allied option a couple of pages back. I particularly like how you can have small squads which you can fit into transports - which as a bonus are pretty good units themselves. Knights have a horde problem and you could do a lot worse than a couple of Taurox Primes for dealing with it.
Here's how a 1750 point list might look. At 2k I'd drop a prime and add a 4th knight.
Knight Lance
Crusader 473
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber
Ironstorm Missile Pod
Crusader 473
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber
Ironstorm Missile Pod
Gallant 354
Reaper Chainsword
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Heavy Stubber
Militarum Tempestus Battalion
Lord Commissar 31
Bolt pistol
Chainsword
Lord Commissar 31
Bolt pistol
Chainsword
5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol
5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol
5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
4 Hot Shot Lasguns
Hot Shot Laspistol
Taurox Prime 124
Taurox Gatling Cannon
2 Autocannon
Taurox Prime 114
Taurox Gatling Cannon
2 Hotshot Volley Guns
An auxiliary detachment doesn't let you pick a house, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't unlock stratagems. It's the superheavy detachment where you get to make one of your guys a character.
Stratagems would let you pay CPs to upgrade your guy, if you get them, but I don't think you do.
A better idea might be to take an armiger. You don't get CPs unless you bring 3 big knights but you get to make one a character and you do unlock stratagems, relics and house traits. I think this means it makes way more sense to bring a knight and two little friends if you're bringing knight allies than just the knight on his own. The armigers are good anyway.
Taking Guilliman in a Super-Auxilliary opens Stratagems. Taking any Space Marine LoW opens Stratagems for that Chapter because it does, indeed, get a Chapter. I'd be shocked if Knights couldn't pick a Household keyword (even if no bonus) and Stratagems.
Danny slag wrote: 1. If the new standard is 1750, it's going to be close to impossible to have 3 knights and still have a screen or really anything other than those 3 knights,with the exception of a bare minimum guard detachment.
3 questor class and a minimum battalion of marines is possible working out exact points but its possible
2. which sounds better.
Warden and errant or crusader and gallant. Either combination has the same total weapons and damage output, just distributed between the two differently, and almost identical point cost. Normally I'd say in 40k specializing is always better, but when 50% of your army is 2 units having them both able to fight and shoot seems to be better than conventional 40k logic. You won't lose all of your shooting when 1 goes down.
3. Anyone know from leaks yet if the aux Superheavy lets you make that singular knight a character or is it only if you take the detachment requiring 3.
only if you use the strategum to give him a relic or warlord trait and they don't get house hold traditions in aux
Instead of 3 knights I'm looking at only taking 2, each in heir own super heavy aux so there are still points for some allied space marines for point holding. Or if I have to take 3 to get characters, 2 knights + armiger. (I realize this won't give CP, I'm more concerned with the being able to take warlord traits and relics than the loss of the 3 CP.)
Answers in bold and don't do double auxiliary its jus flat out tge worst way to run knights even 2 plus helvine is better.
Thank you!
More questions. Someone earlier just mentioned that imperium is no longer a keyword...so how can knight ally with anything if that's true? Seems like that would be the only keyword they'd share with anything else.
Imperium is not a keyword within a detatchment it is between detatchments so can have a knights detatchment and a guard detatchment what you cant have is a supreme command detatchment with a knight and guard
Taking Guilliman in a Super-Auxilliary opens Stratagems. Taking any Space Marine LoW opens Stratagems for that Chapter because it does, indeed, get a Chapter. I'd be shocked if Knights couldn't pick a Household keyword (even if no bonus) and Stratagems.
Just downloaded the codex to check. Found a couple of interesting things.
You do get stratagems for an auxiliary detachment. You also get household traditions actually, which I thought you didn't. The Knight Lances rule is seperate from the Household Traditions rule. All knight detachments are from a household and unlock stratagems, but only lances get you CPs and a character.
So this means you can take an auxiliary knight and upgrade it to be a character and/or have a relic. I'd thought you'd have to bring armigers to make this work but you don't. They do let you make the knight into a character though.
Interestingly, all knights in a knight lance have to be from the same household. You can't have 3 knights from different households in one detachment. This goes further than the restriction in most other codices, which let you take any chapter of marines (for example) but lose chapter tactics if you do. Knights flat out aren't allowed to. However Freeblades are a total exception to this. A freeblade can join a detachment with anyone you like, and it doesn't remove their household benefits.
Also you only get a character from one lance in your army. If you somehow took 2 lances (say by taking 3 big knights in one, 1 big knight and 2 armigers in a second) you'd still only get one character.
Freeblades do still pick whether they are Imperial or mechanicum - which is really interesting. It means you can access stratagems and relics that would normally only be available to the other "side" to what you've taken. So for example you could take an imperial knight lance but bring a mechanicum castellan armed with Cawl's Wrath, or maybe get an imperial freeblade Gallant for a mechanicum army, which could then use the "fight again when killed" stratagem.
I might well paint up a freeblade to have access to this option. I'm not sure it's really worth it for my Taranis knights, but it's worth considering. It would be fun too.
Interesting that you're interpreting the wording differently to how I did.
Knightly lance is one charictor per superheavy detachment.
Also the house hold traditions also state super heavy detachment. I read that as only the superheavy detail and not the superheavy aux detachment.
Ice_can wrote: Interesting that you're interpreting the wording differently to how I did.
Knightly lance is one charictor per superheavy detachment.
Also the house hold traditions also state super heavy detachment. I read that as only the superheavy detail and not the superheavy aux detachment.
Oh no, you're right. It specifically says "excluding super-heavy auxiliary detachments" under "abilities". No household traits for auxiliary knights. And they can't be freeblades either, as those also come under the same "abilities" heading.
I still think you get stratagems though. That just seems to require Imperial Knight detachments. And you can have a relic if your warlord is a knight, or just by playing a stratagem to get one. note that you can spend 1cp to make a knight get a relic and become a character - though he wouldn't get a warlord trait unless you decided to make him your warlord... and I don't think it's too late to make that call when you play the stratagem. Dunno!
I got confused because it starts out in "Might of the Forge Worlds" by talking about "Imperial Knight Detachments". Only in the "abilities" section (for lances, household traits and freeblades) does it start talking about super-heavy detachments.
Mandragola wrote: If people want to deep strike melta guns to fire at your knights then you can't stop them. Screens won't work.
Two reasons for this. The big FAQ came out, so they are coming down on turn 2. So your screen of 10 guys with T3 and 5+ saves no-longer exists. Also knights have a move stat of 12", while IG have a move of 6". Screens don't work if they are behind you.
You cannot cover the whole board, permanently, with 30 imperial guardsmen. People are going to get to fire their plasma guns and meltas at your knights.
The good news is that a melta gun fired by a 3+ BS model does an average 0.58 wounds to a knight with rotated shields, outside of 6" (which they will be after deep striking). Even without the stratagem it's 0.77 wounds. So instead of stressing over something that's not actually a threat, spend your points on more knights, accept that being on a battlefield is dangerous and you'll inevitably take some damage, and do unto others harder than they do unto you.
If people engaged in such fatalist thinking, nobody would run shooting at all.
There are plenty of infiltrating and scouting melta units ontop of the usual deep strike. Some Tau units also just straight up move across the board. Furthermore, screening other Knights or melee units from getting into CC with your Knight is important, as many Knight builds are most vulnerable in CC.
As someone who plays AdMech+Guard, let me tell you that Move! Move! Move! is the most commonly used order in turns one and two. And you don't have to move your Knight ahead of your screen if you know the hammer is coming down next turn.
Ice_can wrote: Interesting that you're interpreting the wording differently to how I did.
Knightly lance is one charictor per superheavy detachment.
Also the house hold traditions also state super heavy detachment. I read that as only the superheavy detail and not the superheavy aux detachment.
Oh no, you're right. It specifically says "excluding super-heavy auxiliary detachments" under "abilities". No household traits for auxiliary knights. And they can't be freeblades either, as those also come under the same "abilities" heading.
I still think you get stratagems though. That just seems to require Imperial Knight detachments. And you can have a relic if your warlord is a knight, or just by playing a stratagem to get one. note that you can spend 1cp to make a knight get a relic and become a character - though he wouldn't get a warlord trait unless you decided to make him your warlord... and I don't think it's too late to make that call when you play the stratagem. Dunno!
I got confused because it starts out in "Might of the Forge Worlds" by talking about "Imperial Knight Detachments". Only in the "abilities" section (for lances, household traits and freeblades) does it start talking about super-heavy detachments.
You get stratagems and relics for sure. You don't get traditions. You do get Freeblades though, I think. If you look at the Freeblade Qualities and Burdens, the only requirement is that your army is battleforged. SH Auxiliary is still battleforged; in fact, Lances also require you to be battleforged.
Spoiler:
One important thing: You are only allowed to give Q&B to ONE Freeblade per detachment. ONE.
Mandragola wrote: Deathwatch is certainly another good option. Your troops are ok and you can have a librarian too. It's an option where no unit is a tax or a liability. They even help quite a bit with hordes.
I think I'd personally keep the points down, with just 3 units of 5 intercessors. I don't think it's worth including an inceptor unless you've got a bunch of other stuff in there. If I was going to add stuff I'd put 4 aggressors and an inceptor into one squad, then leave the other 2 barebones with bolt rifles. Those are good units for 100 points.
The inceptor was just there to add some more horde firepower and let them fall back and shoot if they have to screen for the knights. You might be right though and it's not really worth the points in many cases. Cutting those means room for better carapace weapons on the knights.
Codex in hand, can now fully clarify a few things;
1) Can't mix different Households in the same detachment which is a bit of a bummer. There's a rule explicitly spelling it out.
2) Freeblades do get Qualities and Burdens in Super Heavy Auxiliary detachments.
3) Knights in Super Heavy Auxiliaries don't get Household Traditions.
4) From what I can tell, the Outflank stratagem does work on a full three-strong unit of Armigers.
Interestingly, though Imperial Knights Super Heavy detachments get zero Command Points unless they have any combination of three or more Questoris and/or Dominus type Knights, the "example army" page common to every codex contradicts that rule. It shows a picture of a Valiant, a Warden and a Warglaive, and says;
"Comprising three Lords of War, this force....also fulfils the requirements of a Battle-forged Super-heavy Detachment, meaning that it goes to battle with an impressive six Command Points to spend on Stratagems."
Even the codex writers weren't sure how to handle the Armiger/Command Point situation Those "example army" pages are aimed at beginners; it'd be pretty funny if a beginner buys that set of models following the advice of the codex, then learns the army only has 3CP instead of 6CP because of the Knight Lance army rule
Caederes wrote: Codex in hand, can now fully clarify a few things;
1) Can't mix different Households in the same detachment which is a bit of a bummer. There's a rule explicitly spelling it out.
2) Freeblades do get Qualities and Burdens in Super Heavy Auxiliary detachments.
3) Knights in Super Heavy Auxiliaries don't get Household Traditions.
4) From what I can tell, the Outflank stratagem does work on a full three-strong unit of Armigers.
Interestingly, though Imperial Knights Super Heavy detachments get zero Command Points unless they have any combination of three or more Questoris and/or Dominus type Knights, the "example army" page common to every codex contradicts that rule. It shows a picture of a Valiant, a Warden and a Warglaive, and says;
"Comprising three Lords of War, this force....also fulfils the requirements of a Battle-forged Super-heavy Detachment, meaning that it goes to battle with an impressive six Command Points to spend on Stratagems."
Even the codex writers weren't sure how to handle the Armiger/Command Point situation Those "example army" pages are aimed at beginners; it'd be pretty funny if a beginner buys that set of models following the advice of the codex, then learns the army only has 3CP instead of 6CP because of the Knight Lance army rule
I think at this point it’s got to be FAQ’d. Not a single person outside of the rules team can see why they have made it this way. That in itself is very telling
Even if they compromise and change the requirement to 1 Dominus or Questoris Knight per Super Heavy detachment, that would at least be acceptable.
I'm really happy that Freeblades do get their special rules in Super Heavy Auxiliaries, at least they got that part right! Seems like they are designed to operate as the solo-Knight additions to other armies, hence why the Freeblade rules are weaker than the household traditions overall.
What place does the Forgeworld line have in the new Codex rules?
I have a Cerastus Atropos from Forgeworld that might one day be part of a Knight army but I wonder if they can even use any of the rules from the codex?
Ok apologies for my confusion over freeblades. It comes from the fact that Freeblades are listed under the abilities that you get in a super-heavy detachment. I now see that that entry is just saying that freeblades don’t break up a household detachment.
So yes, an auxiliary freeblades will get his qualities and burdens and access to stratagems and relics. It’s a bit weird that only one model per detachment gets Q+Bs though. It means there’s no point in a lance of freeblades and armigers shouldn’t really be freeblades either.
It’s good that auxiliary knights can get the full benefits though - it makes a lot of sense for freeblades to work on their own effectively.
@Mandragola
No need for apologies. Everything was speculation up until somebody actually saw the Q&B page.
I actually would have been shocked if Freeblades couldn't operate alone.
Anyhow, for lone Knights, I think a Raven Crusader is ideal, followed by a Freeblade Warden. Legendary Hero looks surprisingly good on one, but what about the burdens? Weary Machine Spirit is a given due to the Machine Spirit Resurgent stratagem cancelling it out at will for 1 CP, but what about the other? I am thinking Haunted by Failure.
Ideasweasel wrote: Does Landstrider apply to the warlord using it or just nearby knights?
Both, it's all Knights from the same Household as the Warlord within 6", and as models are in range of their own auras provided the keywords line up, all checks out.
Ideasweasel wrote: Does Landstrider apply to the warlord using it or just nearby knights?
Both, it's all Knights from the same Household as the Warlord within 6", and as models are in range of their own auras provided the keywords line up, all checks out.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I was weighing up in my mind the best warlord trait/relics for various knights. I reckon I would take the knight seneschal trait with para gauntlet for a Gallant.
Lancers are beasts this edition, and the Acheron is still a better Valiant than the Valiant. Either is a good buy.
The Atropos is still the best FW Knight overall, and the Porphoron benefits from the 1cp Rotate Ion Shield strat that cost 3cp for Dominus Knights, which is a bargain.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Lancers are beasts this edition, and the Acheron is still a better Valiant than the Valiant. Either is a good buy.
The Atropos is still the best FW Knight overall, and the Porphoron benefits from the 1cp Rotate Ion Shield strat that cost 3cp for Dominus Knights, which is a bargain.
Opting out of a screen with this list, but having a second turn drop option that can shoot an ungodly amount of Plasma. Ideally, the Knights are shooty enough to clear a path for the MT to land. Tossed in Exalted Court, so I can get Landstrider and Ion Bulwark. Seems worth it to buff my advancing and charging Knights, who will for sure be advancing because they can shoot without penalty. That is kinda nasty. And I can always go Full Tilt with one of the CC ones, just because. Kurov's and Grand Strategist are there for CP regen, but they are on some squishy dudes who will be up front and personal, so not sure how long they will last. But even a few CP saved is helpful and the Rod for multiple Take Aim! orders sounds good enough. The Knights may also act enough as Distraction 'Fex that the Scions don't get as much punishment. Probably not a particularly good list, but just messing about. I don't own the Scions, but I love the models and wouldn't mind an excuse to get some.
Opting out of a screen with this list, but having a second turn drop option that can shoot an ungodly amount of Plasma. Ideally, the Knights are shooty enough to clear a path for the MT to land. Tossed in Exalted Court, so I can get Landstrider and Ion Bulwark. Seems worth it to buff my advancing and charging Knights, who will for sure be advancing because they can shoot without penalty. That is kinda nasty. And I can always go Full Tilt with one of the CC ones, just because. Kurov's and Grand Strategist are there for CP regen, but they are on some squishy dudes who will be up front and personal, so not sure how long they will last. But even a few CP saved is helpful and the Rod for multiple Take Aim! orders sounds good enough. The Knights may also act enough as Distraction 'Fex that the Scions don't get as much punishment. Probably not a particularly good list, but just messing about. I don't own the Scions, but I love the models and wouldn't mind an excuse to get some.
My goodness mate. More plasma than a Doom guy vs boss fight! That list looks quite fun. I was considering keeping mine Admech and opting for a Lucius style tactical nuke but you only get 3 per 10 man unit and they cost so much more. What do you think of the Gallant? Would swapping the errant for him give you a bit more punch up front?
Armiger damage boosted by 46% if they're within 6" of Preceptor
+2" to charge and advance for Preceptor and Armigers if they're within 6"
Packhunters (1CP) can let the 2nd Warglaive reroll a failed charge
Bonded Oathsmen (1CP) lets Armigers within 6" perform Heroic Intervention (up to 6")
The Warglaives threaten a 23" charge, the Preceptor 21", and everyone can shoot while advancing without penalty.
Considering that the Armiger buff is an efficiency upgrade over non-Gallant Questoris models in melee, it only takes 2 turns of melee against the least point efficient targets to make this Preceptor combo more point-per-wound efficient than any other shooty Questoris with a relic weapon.
The benefits come with the hassle of keeping the Warglaives within 6" of the Preceptor, keeping the Warglaives alive long enough to matter, and the Helm Dominatus only effects 1 enemy unit per turn.
So the question is: is it worth the hassle of min/maxing Armigers when I could take a more lethal (or more durable) Questoris variant?
I highly doubt you are going to get 2 turns of melee in with those Armigers.
Furthermore, the entire strategy seems to have a lot of dependencies. Lots of things can go wrong; mutually dependent is not the same thing as mutually supportive.
For example, what if they nuke your Preceptor on turn one? What if any of your units rolls a dud when they advance or charge? What if you're fighting something stronger than you in melee or shooting?
I think they key with Warglaives in melee is to go after screens and use sweep attack. They will also be a good deterrant against fast moving t1 charges with the Bonded Oathsmen strat. 1CP to have then join in and sweep attack the death company 3 times will be fantastic. Once the preceptor finally gets released I think my lists will be (Big Knight 1) (Big Knight 2) Preceptor with Paragon Gauntlet, Warglaive unit with 3.
Suzuteo wrote: Lots of things can go wrong; mutually dependent is not the same thing as mutually supportive.
See, that's the crux of my dilemma. I really want to like the Preceptor, but even at its best it plays like a house of cards. I think if run with 4 Armigers, the dependencies are mitigated, but that's a lot more investment than I want to make.
I want a Questoris to join my Warglaives in supporting some AdMech, not becoming a capstone in a specialized anti-armor list. So I guess a house Raven Warden with Landstrider and Endless Fury. Though if I took the 4++ trait and the 2+ relic I could shrug off the dakka from the hordes I want to engage.
This is the list I am currently looking at doing. Two Wardens and a Valiant with a small contingent of Space Marines. I will have 9 CP to work with. Thoughts?
casvalremdeikun wrote: This is the list I am currently looking at doing. Two Wardens and a Valiant with a small contingent of Space Marines. I will have 9 CP to work with. Thoughts?
That could work. The main thing I’d do is change the marines to deathwatch. Intercessors are buffed so much by SIA.
I also think you might be better off running your knights as house raven, if you really want to run a valiant. Give someone landstrider and have him zerg forward, using the order of companions stratagem to reroll all his 1s in the shooting phase. That should help get your meltas and harpoon into range, which is when the fun really starts. Maybe give him landstrider and 2+ armour. You could stick landstrider on someone else so he could have the 4++ warlord trait, but that creates a dependency.
Super-heavy Detachment
House Krast
Crusader (Warlord) w/ Avenger Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer, Ironstorm Missile Pod: Warlord Trait = House Krast trait (re-roll 1s to-hit), Relic = House Krast relic (+1 Damage against models with Wounds characteristic of 10 or more, or +2 Damage against Titanic models)
Gallant w/ Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod
Gallant w/ Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Ironstorm Missile Pod
Super-heavy Auxiliary Detachment
House Raven
Castellan w/ Volcano Lance, Plasma Decimator, Two Twin Meltaguns, Two Siegebreaker Cannons, Two Shieldbreaker Missiles
And the mandatory bare-bones Guard battalion with either Cadian or Valhallan rules; the army total comes to just under 2000.
Four Knights seems too good to pass up on compared to three Knights with more upgrades. I could swap the Ironstorms out to upgrade the Thermal Cannon on the Crusader to a Rapid-Fire Battle Cannon, but I think I prefer the Thermal Cannon even if the Battle Cannon can get more mileage out of the +1/2 Damage relic.
I'm committed to a Castellan and it absolutely has to be House Raven to be decent, not for the trait (which it won't get in the auxiliary) but for the re-roll all 1s in the Shooting phase stratagem that is just too awesome for 1CP on a model with such random weapons.
However, for the main detachment I went for House Krast as Gallants generally get very little value out of House Raven unless you've got Stormspears up top (whereas I don't much care if I can't fire Ironstorms) and the Crusader with the House Krast +1 Damage relic is actually a nasty tank hunter with some good dice luck (which the re-roll 1s to-hit Warlord Trait helps with). Krast is awesome for Gallants, especially when I'm trying to successfully land the Death Grip attack. Controlled Aggression is an ok stratagem, it's nowhere near as potentially game-changing as the House Terryn fight twice stratagem but I prefer Krast for Gallants, and overall Mechanicus seems like the better way to go than Imperialis thanks to all those juicy Mechanicus-specific stratagems (the main one being that you bypass the damage chart and act as normal for 1CP, meaning opponents have to commit to destroying the Knights, and my other favourite being the 5++ against mortal wounds lasting an entire phase also for 1CP).
That's what I'm leaning towards now and I think it's moderately scary while still being a mix of Knights that I like. I've considered dropping the Crusader down to a Warden, but losing out on the Thermal Cannon in exchange for a melee weapon I probably won't need is a bit of a bummer. Honestly, the Krast relic actually makes the RFBC an interesting prospect, but I'm not sure if it's worth losing out on the Ironstorms for. Interested to see what others think there.
As far as Exalted Court and Heirlooms of the Household are concerned, I will always take two extra Warlord Traits (4++ against shooting on the Castellan and Landstrider on one of the Gallants) and at least one extra Heirloom (Cawls' Wrath on the Castellan) with another one present on the Landstrider Gallant if I feel it's necessary (either the Paragon Gauntlet or the 2++ armour). This would leave me with 7CP to work with in a game provided I don't take three relics, or 6CP if I wanted to put Kurov's Aquila on a Company Commander, which should be enough for what I need to do. Ideally I won't have to use Ion Aegis on the Castellan, which is why having hyper aggressive Gallants and a really nasty Krast Crusader seems like the best way to create real target saturation problems for an opponent.
Actually, here's a quick rules question as I can't recall how it works in other scenarios; if I have "re-roll 1s" per the House Raven stratagem, how does that work with, say, a 3D3 roll for Damage? I'm assuming I don't re-roll any individual D3 rolls of 1, but that the re-roll 1s only applies to the overall roll (as technically the 3D3 Damage on the Volcano Lance is a single roll)?
Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 2 Extra Warlord Traits (-3CP)
Heirlooms of the Household: Heirlooms of the Household: 2 Extra Heirlooms (-3CP)
Household Choice . Questor Mechanicus: House Raven
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins . Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
Knight Gallant Heavy stubber, Heirloom: The Paragon Gauntlet, Reaper chainsword,
. Character Exalted Court Member: Warlord Trait: Knight Seneschal
Knight Preceptor Heavy stubber, Heirloom: The Helm Dominatus, Ironstorm missile pod, Thunderstrike gauntlet
. Character Warlord: Warlord Trait: Landstrider
Knight Warden Heavy stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Ironstorm missile pod, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Heavy Flamer
. Character Exalted Court Member: Warlord Trait: Cunning Commander
++ Total: [93 PL, 1748pts] ++
The goal is to scoot and shoot the Perceptor + Helverins, allowing them to move, advance, and shoot at BS 2+ re-roll 1’s, while the Warden mops up chaff and the Gallant smashes face. I’m not worried about 4++ or better saves on my guys, nor the standard Strat dickery, just stacking up useful bonuses and playing quick games.
Also, with a minor equipment change, I got can drop a Helverin for a Guard Battery, and have enough CP for a few choice Strats.
Question: People at my local GW say you don't get house traits if you have less than three Questoris/Dominous class knights in a Super Heavy detachment.
Reading my 'Dex, it doesn't look like that's the case-you can grab traits with one Questoris and two Armigers.
JNAProductions wrote: Question: People at my local GW say you don't get house traits if you have less than three Questoris/Dominous class knights in a Super Heavy detachment.
Reading my 'Dex, it doesn't look like that's the case-you can grab traits with one Questoris and two Armigers.
Am I wrong? Are they wrong?
I've seen people saying that too, but you get to pick a character and get household benefits, the only thing you don't get is the 3CP.
What's confusing them is that you're still "battleforged" with armigers you just don't get "command benefits," and when you look at command benefits, they are just the CP. the character and household is from being battle forged, which you are.
For $250 whole american dollerydoos, you too can have 4 s16 6 damage attacks from a Lancer.
The horror I tell you, the absolute horror.
Okay that statement is quite out of context that Str and Damage characteristic only activate IF you roll a 6+ before you shoot. Jeeze man the Atrapos is good but not THAT good.
What are people's thoughts on the chain sword, specifically for errant. The gauntlet is sexy, but you really have to take the relic gauntlet if you want to fist, otherwise you're going to miss too much. So for my errant I can go relic gauntlet, or relic melee Invul save + chain sword. Can't decide if the save is worth giving up the fist, kinda feels like it is because most melee units have AP, and having your expensive knifpght get into melee just to be wrecked by 200pts of power axes sounds sad. Plus the chain sword has enough strength and so for most things you'll be in melee with, except maybe a land raider.
What do you guys think.
*btw my lance is a crusader, errant (gallant is sweet but getting past screens into melee isn't guaranteed so I feel better having at least some gun) and an armiger.
For $250 whole american dollerydoos, you too can have 4 s16 6 damage attacks from a Lancer.
The horror I tell you, the absolute horror.
Let's see, the most point per damage effective units by miles in almost every single army are forgeworld, and in this example of the knight cost 3 times standard knights. So yeah, pay2win.
For $250 whole american dollerydoos, you too can have 4 s16 6 damage attacks from a Lancer.
The horror I tell you, the absolute horror.
Okay that statement is quite out of context that Str and Damage characteristic only activate IF you roll a 6+ before you shoot. Jeeze man the Atrapos is good but not THAT good.
I wrote Lancer, friend. I never mentioned an Atrapos.
Even then, I misspoke as a Lancer is still only S14.
JNAProductions wrote: Question: People at my local GW say you don't get house traits if you have less than three Questoris/Dominous class knights in a Super Heavy detachment.
Reading my 'Dex, it doesn't look like that's the case-you can grab traits with one Questoris and two Armigers.
Am I wrong? Are they wrong?
Far as I can tell you get traits as long as you have 3 knights. The only problem armigers have is they don't generate CP unless there are at least 3 big knights.
For example with my Admech I'm only running Armigers at the moment and they still get house traits and amusingly one even gets to be a character. There are very few relics and warlord traits they can make use of, but they look fun at least. I get they're supposed to be support knights for the big ones, but it is kind of sad there aren't more relics and abilities focused specifically on them. It looks to me that if you want to run an armiger heavy list you'll want at least 1-2 big knights to provide leadership bonuses and abilities, since so many strategems, relics, and warlord traits are made with them specifically in mind.
Another fun little thing I noticed, you can take an Armiger as a free blade. There's a couple of fun little abilities they can make use of in smaller games but I don't think you'd want to run a freeblade armiger at anything over a 1000pts.
casvalremdeikun wrote: This is the list I am currently looking at doing. Two Wardens and a Valiant with a small contingent of Space Marines. I will have 9 CP to work with. Thoughts?
That could work. The main thing I’d do is change the marines to deathwatch. Intercessors are buffed so much by SIA.
I also think you might be better off running your knights as house raven, if you really want to run a valiant. Give someone landstrider and have him zerg forward, using the order of companions stratagem to reroll all his 1s in the shooting phase. That should help get your meltas and harpoon into range, which is when the fun really starts. Maybe give him landstrider and 2+ armour. You could stick landstrider on someone else so he could have the 4++ warlord trait, but that creates a dependency.
Deathwatch would push me over my points limit, I think. That and I don't have any Primaris Deathwatch. The models I listed above are from my Crimson Fists army.
As for the House Tradition, I have considered House Raven, but my brother has six House Raven Knights, so that would be confusing. That and I don't want to copy. Cadmus or Taranis are a possibility. But Mortan seems like it is fun due to the bonuses to hit in CC. I haven't painted any of mine yet.
Danny slag wrote: What are people's thoughts on the chain sword, specifically for errant. The gauntlet is sexy, but you really have to take the relic gauntlet if you want to fist, otherwise you're going to miss too much. So for my errant I can go relic gauntlet, or relic melee Invul save + chain sword. Can't decide if the save is worth giving up the fist, kinda feels like it is because most melee units have AP, and having your expensive knifpght get into melee just to be wrecked by 200pts of power axes sounds sad. Plus the chain sword has enough strength and so for most things you'll be in melee with, except maybe a land raider.
What do you guys think.
I think you're probably right that the fist is not worth it unless you're taking the relic. The only foe against which it is even slightly better than the sword is T8 with 3+ or 2+ save, without invulnerable save, and when your profile has not degraded. Sword is better in all other situations, sometimes significantly. Then again this is not taking into account tossing dead foes for extra damage or the fist stratagem with which you can pretty much make sure that a thing that needs to die dies. The sword stratagem is nice, but I don't think that it is nearly as good.
In any case, I'd probably prioritise defence over offence. If your knight with a relic fist of doom is charging towards the enemy, it will be a priority target, and that fist won't do any good when you're dead. 4++ warlord trait and the relic fist would probably be a decent combo, it may not help you in the melee, but will help you to get there in good health. Though if you have a Dominus, you probably want to give that trait to it instead.
House Mortan can run fists without issue due to their +1 to hit when charging/being charged/heroically intervening. A Mortan Gallant is better served by taking Sanctuary or the Armour of the Sainted Ion than the Paragon Gauntlet.
casvalremdeikun wrote: This is the list I am currently looking at doing. Two Wardens and a Valiant with a small contingent of Space Marines. I will have 9 CP to work with. Thoughts?
That could work. The main thing I’d do is change the marines to deathwatch. Intercessors are buffed so much by SIA.
I also think you might be better off running your knights as house raven, if you really want to run a valiant. Give someone landstrider and have him zerg forward, using the order of companions stratagem to reroll all his 1s in the shooting phase. That should help get your meltas and harpoon into range, which is when the fun really starts. Maybe give him landstrider and 2+ armour. You could stick landstrider on someone else so he could have the 4++ warlord trait, but that creates a dependency.
Deathwatch would push me over my points limit, I think. That and I don't have any Primaris Deathwatch. The models I listed above are from my Crimson Fists army.
As for the House Tradition, I have considered House Raven, but my brother has six House Raven Knights, so that would be confusing. That and I don't want to copy. Cadmus or Taranis are a possibility. But Mortan seems like it is fun due to the bonuses to hit in CC. I haven't painted any of mine yet.
Fair enough then. I play crimson fists myself so I’d never criticise that!
On the chainsword/fist question, I think you can make a case in favour of the fist. Weirdly, it mainly centres on the fact that feet are better against most targets anyway. So you’re kicking away at a unit, and then you death grip a hapless character nearby. The sword doesn’t give you that option.
For a gallant the fist is actually slightly better than the sword. It tends to hit on a 3 and wound on a 2, while the sword hits on a 2 and wounds on a 3 against tough things. So the average damage is the same but the fist lets you throw tanks at people. And you’re likely to be kicking any soft target anyway.
JNAProductions wrote: Question: People at my local GW say you don't get house traits if you have less than three Questoris/Dominous class knights in a Super Heavy detachment.
Reading my 'Dex, it doesn't look like that's the case-you can grab traits with one Questoris and two Armigers.
Am I wrong? Are they wrong?
the restriction is: You only get Households tradition in a superheavy detachment.
So a single knight in an auxilary superheavy detachment doesn't get tradition.
A single knight in a superheavy detachment (with armigers) gets traditions (but no command benefits read: 3 CP).
casvalremdeikun wrote: This is the list I am currently looking at doing. Two Wardens and a Valiant with a small contingent of Space Marines. I will have 9 CP to work with. Thoughts?
That could work. The main thing I’d do is change the marines to deathwatch. Intercessors are buffed so much by SIA.
I also think you might be better off running your knights as house raven, if you really want to run a valiant. Give someone landstrider and have him zerg forward, using the order of companions stratagem to reroll all his 1s in the shooting phase. That should help get your meltas and harpoon into range, which is when the fun really starts. Maybe give him landstrider and 2+ armour. You could stick landstrider on someone else so he could have the 4++ warlord trait, but that creates a dependency.
Deathwatch would push me over my points limit, I think. That and I don't have any Primaris Deathwatch. The models I listed above are from my Crimson Fists army.
As for the House Tradition, I have considered House Raven, but my brother has six House Raven Knights, so that would be confusing. That and I don't want to copy. Cadmus or Taranis are a possibility. But Mortan seems like it is fun due to the bonuses to hit in CC. I haven't painted any of mine yet.
Fair enough then. I play crimson fists myself so I’d never criticise that!
On the chainsword/fist question, I think you can make a case in favour of the fist. Weirdly, it mainly centres on the fact that feet are better against most targets anyway. So you’re kicking away at a unit, and then you death grip a hapless character nearby. The sword doesn’t give you that option.
For a gallant the fist is actually slightly better than the sword. It tends to hit on a 3 and wound on a 2, while the sword hits on a 2 and wounds on a 3 against tough things. So the average damage is the same but the fist lets you throw tanks at people. And you’re likely to be kicking any soft target anyway.
When my Mortan Gallant charges, even with a plain Thunderstrike Gauntlet. So that is pretty rad. And I definitely look forward to getting Death Grip off (on a 2+ no less!).
Mortan's Warlord Trait and Stratagem makes me regret getting a Valiant instead of a Castellan. Being able to camp in back and lay waste is pretty awesome. -1 to hit against a rear Knight and being able to shoot without penalty is pretty awesome. Maybe I will make a Crusader instead of one of the Wardens. The ability to blast away is pretty cool. It would give me one of every basic Knight type.
Household Choice
. Questor Imperialis: House Hawkhroud or Mortan
+ Lord of War +
Armiger Helverins [9 PL]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
Knight Gallant [20 PL]: Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet
Knight Valiant [30 PL]: Character
. One Siegebreaker Cannon & Four Shieldbreaker Missiles: 4x Shieldbreaker Missile, Twin Siegebreaker Cannon
Knight Warden [23 PL]: Heavy stubber, Ironstorm missile pod, Reaper chainsword
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
++ Total: [95 PL, 1750pts] ++
Going to build this list. Alternatively can drop the primaris Psyker and an infantry squad for a tempestor prime and a barebone tempestus squad. I think my warlord will be the Valiant and always take 3CP exalted court and 1 CP relic.
Opting out of a screen with this list, but having a second turn drop option that can shoot an ungodly amount of Plasma. Ideally, the Knights are shooty enough to clear a path for the MT to land. Tossed in Exalted Court, so I can get Landstrider and Ion Bulwark. Seems worth it to buff my advancing and charging Knights, who will for sure be advancing because they can shoot without penalty. That is kinda nasty. And I can always go Full Tilt with one of the CC ones, just because. Kurov's and Grand Strategist are there for CP regen, but they are on some squishy dudes who will be up front and personal, so not sure how long they will last. But even a few CP saved is helpful and the Rod for multiple Take Aim! orders sounds good enough. The Knights may also act enough as Distraction 'Fex that the Scions don't get as much punishment. Probably not a particularly good list, but just messing about. I don't own the Scions, but I love the models and wouldn't mind an excuse to get some.
My goodness mate. More plasma than a Doom guy vs boss fight! That list looks quite fun. I was considering keeping mine Admech and opting for a Lucius style tactical nuke but you only get 3 per 10 man unit and they cost so much more. What do you think of the Gallant? Would swapping the errant for him give you a bit more punch up front?
I have punch via the feet and two Reaper Chainswords. I don't think a Gallant really offers much, especially with the Raven trait.
And.yea, allllllll the plasma. Because they can re-roll ones with Take Aim, so it's less of a liability and they shoot well to begin with. I can either drop them T1 in my deployment zone or T2 for a bit of a alpha-ish strike. They aren't going to stand up to high volume shooting, but if they get one round in they'll do some hurt. And I can hold back the smaller team to drop onto a distant objective even.
Anyone else have input on the list before I blow a lot of cash on some Scions?
Opting out of a screen with this list, but having a second turn drop option that can shoot an ungodly amount of Plasma. Ideally, the Knights are shooty enough to clear a path for the MT to land. Tossed in Exalted Court, so I can get Landstrider and Ion Bulwark. Seems worth it to buff my advancing and charging Knights, who will for sure be advancing because they can shoot without penalty. That is kinda nasty. And I can always go Full Tilt with one of the CC ones, just because. Kurov's and Grand Strategist are there for CP regen, but they are on some squishy dudes who will be up front and personal, so not sure how long they will last. But even a few CP saved is helpful and the Rod for multiple Take Aim! orders sounds good enough. The Knights may also act enough as Distraction 'Fex that the Scions don't get as much punishment. Probably not a particularly good list, but just messing about. I don't own the Scions, but I love the models and wouldn't mind an excuse to get some.
My goodness mate. More plasma than a Doom guy vs boss fight! That list looks quite fun. I was considering keeping mine Admech and opting for a Lucius style tactical nuke but you only get 3 per 10 man unit and they cost so much more. What do you think of the Gallant? Would swapping the errant for him give you a bit more punch up front?
I have punch via the feet and two Reaper Chainswords. I don't think a Gallant really offers much, especially with the Raven trait.
And.yea, allllllll the plasma. Because they can re-roll ones with Take Aim, so it's less of a liability and they shoot well to begin with. I can either drop them T1 in my deployment zone or T2 for a bit of a alpha-ish strike. They aren't going to stand up to high volume shooting, but if they get one round in they'll do some hurt. And I can hold back the smaller team to drop onto a distant objective even.
Anyone else have input on the list before I blow a lot of cash on some Scions?
If things are about to get spendy then I’d consider getting a couple of sets of the start collecting box. I have a feeling that you might find the dakka from taurox primes as valuable as the pew pew from plasma.
Right now I think your list is a bit rock/paper/scissors. You could struggle with hordes. A couple of taurox Gatling cannons would help somewhat with that.
I’m not 100% sure this is correct, but on balance I think you’d find it useful to have the tauroxes in your collection, so that you had the option of running them.
I'd agree with the above, as detestable as plasma spam scions are, what are they hunting that your knights won't have been better equipped to tackle?
Ivun saves= Avenger
Heavy Armour = Termal or CC Multiwound midels= RFBC or AGC
Hoards = feet
Found the reason they thought armigers didn’t need to generate cp, 3 cp a turn you can make a literally untouchable knight nothing can deal with unless you yourself charge and get it killed in your own turn “our darkest hour” has no limitations on it for 2 cp, for 1 more you fight on top profile
Limited cp inherent to a specific codex is meaningless when for the point cost of one Armiger you can get 5 cp from an AM Battery. No, that’s not “the reason”.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Limited cp inherent to a specific codex is meaningless when for the point cost of one Armiger you can get 5 cp from an AM Battery. No, that’s not “the reason”.
On the discussion about Reaper Chainsword vs. Thunderstrike Gauntlet:
Don't forget that the "hit someone on a ruin" stratagem explicitly requires to have one of those weapons. You cannot do it with feet.
Question to the guard battalions:
Is it worth it to put them in chimeras? The 30 infantrymen will die quickly and with the transports you will overload the enemy even more on vehicles.
Another way to deal with enemies upstairs in ruins is to shoot them. I can’t see this being a major problem in most cases. The stratagem to fight them in cc isn’t amazingly good, as you’re only likely to kill a couple of models with a reaper chainsword, and less than that with the fist.
On CPs, I find the idea of a “CP-heavy” codex kind of hilarious. It just means a codex with stratagems that you’d actually like to use, unlike the ones in something like the SM codex. 6 isn’t many CPs, but it’s actually what a lot of people had before the recent FAQ.
Knights were almost viable before the codex, when they had no stratagems. Now they are cheaper and have a bunch of great stratagems, but apparently they need an AM battalion to be viable.
My suggestion is to just live with not having that many CPs. It would be nice to have more, but not as nice as having more knights. I might be biased in this feeling because I play Taranis. My strategy is basically to outlast my opponent, by fielding as many T8 wounds with FNP as possible. I probably won’t be taking more relics and extra warlord traits – other than the near-obligatory cunning commander. I think I can manage with 6 CPs, but it may be that other houses suit a more aggressive play-style, which justifies bringing a battery along.
Mandragola wrote: Another way to deal with enemies upstairs in ruins is to shoot them. I can’t see this being a major problem in most cases. The stratagem to fight them in cc isn’t amazingly good, as you’re only likely to kill a couple of models with a reaper chainsword, and less than that with the fist.
On CPs, I find the idea of a “CP-heavy” codex kind of hilarious. It just means a codex with stratagems that you’d actually like to use, unlike the ones in something like the SM codex. 6 isn’t many CPs, but it’s actually what a lot of people had before the recent FAQ.
Knights were almost viable before the codex, when they had no stratagems. Now they are cheaper and have a bunch of great stratagems, but apparently they need an AM battalion to be viable.
My suggestion is to just live with not having that many CPs. It would be nice to have more, but not as nice as having more knights. I might be biased in this feeling because I play Taranis. My strategy is basically to outlast my opponent, by fielding as many T8 wounds with FNP as possible. I probably won’t be taking more relics and extra warlord traits – other than the near-obligatory cunning commander. I think I can manage with 6 CPs, but it may be that other houses suit a more aggressive play-style, which justifies bringing a battery along.
I agree. Knights are pretty interesting and viable without soup, but, you do then have to pretty much build your list around a single idea as you won’t have the CP flexibility to attempt to go down more than 1 strategy imo.
Looking at my list for July, I’m pretty much spending 10CP before the game and in deployment, leaving me with 6CP – which after I take Full Tilt, Death Grip and RIS into account, I’m down to 2. Would be wholly relying on getting a couple back with Kurov’s Aquila, otherwise, my 2 turns need to be absolutely incredible.
I could save myself an additional 3CP, but it would completely depend on who I am up against, and whether or not, I’d expect to have all my infantry just shot off the table turn 1.
Looking forward to getting some kits built when I get home from work in a couple of hours!
gendoikari87 wrote: Found the reason they thought armigers didn’t need to generate cp, 3 cp a turn you can make a literally untouchable knight nothing can deal with unless you yourself charge and get it killed in your own turn “our darkest hour” has no limitations on it for 2 cp, for 1 more you fight on top profile
Run that past me again mate. What was the reason?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mandragola wrote: Another way to deal with enemies upstairs in ruins is to shoot them. I can’t see this being a major problem in most cases. The stratagem to fight them in cc isn’t amazingly good, as you’re only likely to kill a couple of models with a reaper chainsword, and less than that with the fist.
On CPs, I find the idea of a “CP-heavy” codex kind of hilarious. It just means a codex with stratagems that you’d actually like to use, unlike the ones in something like the SM codex. 6 isn’t many CPs, but it’s actually what a lot of people had before the recent FAQ.
Knights were almost viable before the codex, when they had no stratagems. Now they are cheaper and have a bunch of great stratagems, but apparently they need an AM battalion to be viable.
My suggestion is to just live with not having that many CPs. It would be nice to have more, but not as nice as having more knights. I might be biased in this feeling because I play Taranis. My strategy is basically to outlast my opponent, by fielding as many T8 wounds with FNP as possible. I probably won’t be taking more relics and extra warlord traits – other than the near-obligatory cunning commander. I think I can manage with 6 CPs, but it may be that other houses suit a more aggressive play-style, which justifies bringing a battery along.
Wow. How are you spending 10 CPs before deployment?
I’m looking at taking this army at 1750pts:
Castellan with 4 missiles and 1 turret (which I know is worse, but it saves points!). Ion Bulwark and Cawl’s Wrath. 593
Warden with reaper chainsword and ironstorm rocket pod. 427
Errant with fist. 400
2 Armigers with stubbers. 328
The tournament lets you spend CPs before the battle on stuff like extra relics without writing them on your list, so I usually won’t. But I think I’ll always take cunning commander for 0CP (total) on one of the knights, and maybe take a relic on the other one so that all 3 are characters. Endless fury on the Warden is likely to be the one I go for, though there are plenty of other good options of course.
I would consider a gallant instead of the two armigers, but it doesn’t really work well with the points. I’d have to turn the warden into an errant and lose its rocket pod, which overall would mean a significant loss of firepower. I actually think the armigers are a great deal for their price. They are too dangerous to ignore, so hopefully they’ll draw fire off my big guys. If that means I’ve got a big knight or two running around after the enemy runs out of anti-knight firepower, I should be in good shape.
They are only using eternal war stratagems, not maelstrom, so I’m not as worried about maelstrom as I might otherwise have been. The relic might be a slight issue though, as nobody in my list can pick it up! I’d actually consider dropping an armigers and switching the Errant for a gallant so as to try and squeeze in some assassins or something - but I think I’ll just go with an all-knight approach instead.
What do y'all knight players think of the Knight Styrix? As a Mechanicus player I have been building one with this as a goal:
Knight Styrix
reaper chainsword - relic: reroll 1s to hit, strength 16
volkite chierovile: 45" heavy 5 strength 8 AP -3 damage d6, wound roll of 6 generates additional hit on target
house Mortan: no household bonus because Auxiliary detachment
house Mortan warlord trait: -1 to be hit from 18" or further away
house Mortan stratagem: 1cp ignore all negative shooting modifiers, for enemy -2 to hit Alaitoc flyers
other special defensive properties: 4++ vs shooting 5++ vs melee from Knight Styrix special ability
other special defensive properties: regenerate 1 wound per turn on a 6 from Knight Styrix special ability
other special offensive properties: ignore cover (except va vehicles) from Knight Styrix special ability
Mandragola wrote: Wow. How are you spending 10 CPs before deployment?
I’m looking at taking this army at 1750pts:
Castellan with 4 missiles and 1 turret (which I know is worse, but it saves points!). Ion Bulwark and Cawl’s Wrath. 593
Warden with reaper chainsword and ironstorm rocket pod. 427
Errant with fist. 400
2 Armigers with stubbers. 328
The tournament lets you spend CPs before the battle on stuff like extra relics without writing them on your list, so I usually won’t. But I think I’ll always take cunning commander for 0CP (total) on one of the knights, and maybe take a relic on the other one so that all 3 are characters. Endless fury on the Warden is likely to be the one I go for, though there are plenty of other good options of course.
I would consider a gallant instead of the two armigers, but it doesn’t really work well with the points. I’d have to turn the warden into an errant and lose its rocket pod, which overall would mean a significant loss of firepower. I actually think the armigers are a great deal for their price. They are too dangerous to ignore, so hopefully they’ll draw fire off my big guys. If that means I’ve got a big knight or two running around after the enemy runs out of anti-knight firepower, I should be in good shape.
They are only using eternal war stratagems, not maelstrom, so I’m not as worried about maelstrom as I might otherwise have been. The relic might be a slight issue though, as nobody in my list can pick it up! I’d actually consider dropping an armigers and switching the Errant for a gallant so as to try and squeeze in some assassins or something - but I think I’ll just go with an all-knight approach instead.
6 on exalted court and 2 extra relics.
1 on guard aquila relic
probably 3 on tallarn ambush in order to keep some troops alive til turn 3.
Mandragola wrote: Another way to deal with enemies upstairs in ruins is to shoot them. I can’t see this being a major problem in most cases. The stratagem to fight them in cc isn’t amazingly good, as you’re only likely to kill a couple of models with a reaper chainsword, and less than that with the fist.
On CPs, I find the idea of a “CP-heavy” codex kind of hilarious. It just means a codex with stratagems that you’d actually like to use, unlike the ones in something like the SM codex. 6 isn’t many CPs, but it’s actually what a lot of people had before the recent FAQ.
Knights were almost viable before the codex, when they had no stratagems. Now they are cheaper and have a bunch of great stratagems, but apparently they need an AM battalion to be viable.
My suggestion is to just live with not having that many CPs. It would be nice to have more, but not as nice as having more knights. I might be biased in this feeling because I play Taranis. My strategy is basically to outlast my opponent, by fielding as many T8 wounds with FNP as possible. I probably won’t be taking more relics and extra warlord traits – other than the near-obligatory cunning commander. I think I can manage with 6 CPs, but it may be that other houses suit a more aggressive play-style, which justifies bringing a battery along.
I agree. Knights are pretty interesting and viable without soup, but, you do then have to pretty much build your list around a single idea as you won’t have the CP flexibility to attempt to go down more than 1 strategy imo.
Looking at my list for July, I’m pretty much spending 10CP before the game and in deployment, leaving me with 6CP – which after I take Full Tilt, Death Grip and RIS into account, I’m down to 2. Would be wholly relying on getting a couple back with Kurov’s Aquila, otherwise, my 2 turns need to be absolutely incredible.
I could save myself an additional 3CP, but it would completely depend on who I am up against, and whether or not, I’d expect to have all my infantry just shot off the table turn 1.
Looking forward to getting some kits built when I get home from work in a couple of hours!
Holy gak, 16cp. Lol If that doesn't show an issue with the AM battery I don't know what would.
I thought 8 was a lot.
Mandragola wrote: Another way to deal with enemies upstairs in ruins is to shoot them. I can’t see this being a major problem in most cases. The stratagem to fight them in cc isn’t amazingly good, as you’re only likely to kill a couple of models with a reaper chainsword, and less than that with the fist.
On CPs, I find the idea of a “CP-heavy” codex kind of hilarious. It just means a codex with stratagems that you’d actually like to use, unlike the ones in something like the SM codex. 6 isn’t many CPs, but it’s actually what a lot of people had before the recent FAQ.
Knights were almost viable before the codex, when they had no stratagems. Now they are cheaper and have a bunch of great stratagems, but apparently they need an AM battalion to be viable.
My suggestion is to just live with not having that many CPs. It would be nice to have more, but not as nice as having more knights. I might be biased in this feeling because I play Taranis. My strategy is basically to outlast my opponent, by fielding as many T8 wounds with FNP as possible. I probably won’t be taking more relics and extra warlord traits – other than the near-obligatory cunning commander. I think I can manage with 6 CPs, but it may be that other houses suit a more aggressive play-style, which justifies bringing a battery along.
I agree. Knights are pretty interesting and viable without soup, but, you do then have to pretty much build your list around a single idea as you won’t have the CP flexibility to attempt to go down more than 1 strategy imo.
Looking at my list for July, I’m pretty much spending 10CP before the game and in deployment, leaving me with 6CP – which after I take Full Tilt, Death Grip and RIS into account, I’m down to 2. Would be wholly relying on getting a couple back with Kurov’s Aquila, otherwise, my 2 turns need to be absolutely incredible.
I could save myself an additional 3CP, but it would completely depend on who I am up against, and whether or not, I’d expect to have all my infantry just shot off the table turn 1.
Looking forward to getting some kits built when I get home from work in a couple of hours!
Holy gak, 16cp. Lol If that doesn't show an issue with the AM battery I don't know what would.
I thought 8 was a lot.
I totally agree.
Under 1500 points of Knights, and then 2 AM battalions containing melta, plasma and 70 bodies. I wouldn't use this in friendly games though... unless it turns out that it REALLY sucks
Yeah, I’m not sure about the CP loss for less than three Questor and/or Dominus per Lance. It says as much in the rules, but there are two examples in the book that contradict this.
One page shows a Questor and two Armigers, stating that Lance gives them 6 CP total (3 for Super Heavy Detachment + starting 3). Another shows an army of two Super Heavy Detachments with Armigers for a CP total of 9.
So... yeah, the examples provided are breaking the codex’s own rules. Maybe the FAQ will correct this.
Danny slag wrote: What are people's thoughts on the chain sword, specifically for errant. The gauntlet is sexy, but you really have to take the relic gauntlet if you want to fist, otherwise you're going to miss too much. So for my errant I can go relic gauntlet, or relic melee Invul save + chain sword. Can't decide if the save is worth giving up the fist, kinda feels like it is because most melee units have AP, and having your expensive knifpght get into melee just to be wrecked by 200pts of power axes sounds sad. Plus the chain sword has enough strength and so for most things you'll be in melee with, except maybe a land raider.
Feet and Gauntlet are almost always better than the Reaper except against things like Tau Commanders. If you don't want to use Death Grip, then don't use it.
