Since I looked couldn't find a tactica for the Imperial knights I figured I'd start one since I'll be making a knight army when the codex drops. Already got two armigers.

Anyone more experienced with knights care to drop their 2 cents?

https://spikeybits.com/2018/04/rumors-knight-release-order-lineup.html

So far looking good

Currently everything seems overpriced. Cc options need a good 50 point cut.

Anyone have anything they’d like to add?

I'd argue the chassis for the big knights is vastly overpriced at 320 points. Really it's tough to say how much anything is worth pre stratagems, traits and stat changes. If the big knights don't get either a 2+ save or a 5+ invuln in close combat as well I'll be sad.

All Knights are currently overpriced.

The big ones by about 100-125pt, while the baby ones by like 60pt.

Until this is fixed or the Codex gives them some bomb extra rules, they will be a non-starter force. Heck, even putting them in Soup/AdMech is a liability.

Hopefully, the upcoming Knight Codex remedies this, because it is one of my favorite forces in the Imperium and my favorite model GW has made (I own... just... so many).

I woudl agree that the knights are overpriced, especially the close combat options. That is partially a function of how good the Titanic Feet are, which makes attacking with any other weapon a bad idea in most cases. I would put the overcost at 40-50 points.

I disagree that the force is a non-starter though. Ive taken a Quastor list to my last two tournaments and done fairly well. It isn't a pure knights list, because tournament games generally require you to take objectives and you just can't have 500 point knights sitting on objectives. They need to me moving around to get in the proper weapon ranges and to charge people. Fortunately, you can take other Imperial forces for objective holding, screeing and psychic defense. I guess I might as well post the list Ive been using, which needs to be changed after the FAQ but not by much:



Four Infantry squads generally gives me enough to set up a screen and stop melta/plasma/Captain Smash from deepstriking right on the knights. They are also among the fastest squads in the game with the move move move order, and so are good at grabbing objectives. The psychers and the Culexus provide psychic defense to stop mortal wounds, which the knights hate. The Eversor usually ends up either grabbing an objective or charging a tank to stop it from shooting for a turn.

The knights are the core of the list, of course. With Rotate Ion Shields and rerolling saves with CP they are surprisingly survivable vs shooting, and they are usually fast enough to decide which close combats they get involved in. Just avoid getting charged by daemon princes and similar things and you can step on people all day. The Thermal Cannons are some of the few weapons that you might be able to one shot vehicles with in 8th and the Avenger Gatling Cannons are fairly good at killing everything. Giving your warlod 5 attacks (with Knight Seneshal) with Ravager means that you get 15 foot attacks or 5 S 14 dmg 6 attacks that reroll 1s to hit, which aint bad.

I could've sworn there was one from long ago, but this works for me!

As others have said, the Knights are just a bit overpriced right now. I'm hoping for a ramp up in firepower or decrease in cost. The main issue is that they're paying through the nose to be durable when they aren't actually very durable and can be shredded fairly easily.

Well baneblade pays for durability it does t have too but it at least has 30 heavy bolter shots and a kick ass gun

Anyone else use the Atropos? I think it's one of the only viable knights right now, because of a) its increased invuln save and b) its rerolls to hit and wound in CC vs monsters and vehicles.

Chainsword should be free and gauntlet 5-10 points. Base point cost should be no more than 300, preferably around 280.

Anyhow, the best Knight list is probably AdMech, a single cheap-as-possible Crusader, and a detachment that can deep strike or otherwise be extremely mobile.

You can also do something nuts like this:

Yeah that's my point why wouldnt you pay 43pts more for a knight that is actually a proper terror in cc, and can have a 3++ vs shooting whenever you want? Add on 14" move and you have a plain upgrade from the standard Knight unit, all for the price of one barebones infantry squad.

The real question on my mind is: will knights be a viable stand alone army. Right now they have little to no anti hoard

gendoikari87 wrote:
The real question on my mind is: will knights be a viable stand alone army. Right now they have little to no anti hoard

That we can't know until the Armiger gets new weapon options, along with the rumored new Knights coming along. The new big Knight with all the guns could be. Or the Helliger or whatever?

Right now, too many future variables to predict what this army will look like post-Codex (provided the Codex coincides with the kit releases).

Do we even have an eta on the codex? I’m expecting it to be announced early May

There's an event 5/12-14th that's rumored to get us some more information.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
All Knights are currently overpriced.

Think how the poor Wraithknight feels. 400 points for the same basic stats as an Imperial Knight but without a 5++ vs shooting. :(

I have no doubt that the new codex will buff/discount the IKs as appropriate.

 Karhedron wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
All Knights are currently overpriced.

Think how the poor Wraithknight feels. 400 points for the same basic stats as an Imperial Knight but without a 5++ vs shooting. :(

I have no doubt that the new codex will buff/discount the IKs as appropriate.

It is paying for the sins of prior editions.

And as an AdMech player, I have immense doubts the Knight Codex will make them better (by reducing them to playable point values). GW simply does not get how to point its LoW in a balanced way.

The Knight Styrix seems pretty good. The Volkite gun it has is comparable to a rapid fire battlecannon. More importantly though, it has a 4++ against shooting and a 5++ in melee. The Siege claw is worth it because of the twin rad cleanser it comes with. Use the IK rotate ion shields strategem on a Knight Styrix and you're looking at a 3++ against shooting attacks. They also ignore cover saves when shooting, and have blessed autosimulacrum. They also blow up bigger, which is also fun.

Yep, Styrix and Atropos are the only two knights worth it at the moment. I prefer the Atropos because of its unmatched tank busting capabilities. In my first game with one he walked up to one chimera and shot it open, charged into CC with another two, and killed them both in ine round of CC. The guy doesn't mess when he's up close.


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(And yes, I felt a bit bad punishing the one guy trying to make mech guard work! )

A big need for knights to function as a standalone is some form of objective secured. Without it, they can't hold anything and aren't killy enough to ward off the chaff that will contest.

I actually played my first game with my 2 armigers and a joint admech force of 1500 points today. I ended up being tabled on round 6 in a game where I was ahead 10-4 on points. I played a fun list against a much stronger list though so I'm not surprised. The armigers, much like I suspected they would, underperformed. I got round one and both of them stripped 7 wounds of a fire prism, one of them died during his turn and the other was brought down to 6 wounds. Round 2 it stripped 4 wounds of a hemlock and then died.

Thoughts? No psychic defense is really difficult to overlook. Their damage is too random. 80% of my opponents army was hiding in buildings so they couldn't charge. 12 T7 wounds wit a 3+/5++ just isn't that tough, so as soon as I ran out of CP they were sitting ducks.



The psychic defense is at least somewhat fixed by a stratagem that works like the Graia one (deny a spell within 24" on 4+) or a stratagem that gives them a 5+ FnP against mortal wounds during that phase.

The damage is probably going to stay the same way, it'll be less painful with a points drop. Maybe the warlord can give an aura that makes them reroll the random number of shots?

GW needs to fix the terrain rules. My opponent played alaitoc (which is a whole other discussion in regards to stacking modifiers) but could place almost all of his units on top of ruins, including his vehicles since they have fly. So my dragoons and armigers were rendered almost useless.



Man I wish these things would be 180ish points, which is a fair value.

So for the lulz I brought out the knights to play for the first tune since seventh. Three knights (Crusader, Errant and Gallant) versus a poxwalkers farm.

It did not go well.

Between the mortal wounds from his seven characters, and the mortal wounds from the poxwalkers, and the FNP on everything, I managed to lose the Crusader and Gallant and a third of the wounds on my Errant by the end of turn four, in exchange for two of his three units of poxwalkers and several characters, but in that time due to some lucky card draw, he ended up with 10vp to my 2.

So version two has paired Crusaders and three culexus for some desperately needed psychic defence

So a friend has asked to borrow my knights for a forthcoming tournament, after his GKs were nerfed into the ground by the Big FAQ. I've put together a 2k list for him out of what I've got, and would value suggestions on how he should play.

Note: the list's been submitted and there's no chance of getting new models in time anyway. I'm after suggestions on how to use it, not criticism of it (did my best!) or other models to bring instead.

Super-Heavy Detachment, Questor Imperialis [1994 Points] + 3 CP

Knight Paladin, Rapid-fire Battlecannon, Reaper Chainsword - upgraded to Ravager relic, 2x Heavy Stubbers, Stormspear Rocket Pod – WARLORD – [503pts]

Knight Errant, Thermal Cannon, Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber – [435pts]

Knight Crusader, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Rapid-fire Battlecannon, 2x Heavy Stubbers, Heavy Flamer, Ironstorm Missile Pod – [556pts]

Cerastus Knight-Castigator, Castigator Bolt Cannon, Tempest Warblade – [500pts]

My thinking is that he'll do best if he's able to concentrate the power of his 4 knights, but that this works against him in Maelstrom. The Crusader is happy enough with sitting back and shooting at things, if he draws cards that tell him to capture/defend things on his own side. Best results will probably come from having all of the knights kicking the same target though.

Any help would be welcome!

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Godeskian wrote:
So for the lulz I brought out the knights to play for the first tune since seventh. Three knights (Crusader, Errant and Gallant) versus a poxwalkers farm.

It did not go well.

Between the mortal wounds from his seven characters, and the mortal wounds from the poxwalkers, and the FNP on everything, I managed to lose the Crusader and Gallant and a third of the wounds on my Errant by the end of turn four, in exchange for two of his three units of poxwalkers and several characters, but in that time due to some lucky card draw, he ended up with 10vp to my 2.

So version two has paired Crusaders and three culexus for some desperately needed psychic defence

On the plus side, the poxwalker farm doesn't work any more. Since the latest FAQ the DG guy has to pay reinforcement points for any new poxwalkers, which makes the list pointless. Sorry for your friend with the poxwalkers - sounds like he's in the same spot as my GK-playing friend with a list that doesn't work at all.

Mandragola wrote:
On the plus side, the poxwalker farm doesn't work any more. Since the latest FAQ the DG guy has to pay reinforcement points for any new poxwalkers, which makes the list pointless. Sorry for your friend with the poxwalkers - sounds like he's in the same spot as my GK-playing friend with a list that doesn't work at all.

Only if the added models would take the unit above starting strength.

 p5freak wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
On the plus side, the poxwalker farm doesn't work any more. Since the latest FAQ the DG guy has to pay reinforcement points for any new poxwalkers, which makes the list pointless. Sorry for your friend with the poxwalkers - sounds like he's in the same spot as my GK-playing friend with a list that doesn't work at all.

Only if the added models would take the unit above starting strength.

Sure, but a unit (or units) of 20 poxwalkers doesn’t constitute a “farm”, and really shouldn’t threaten a knight army. It really should be possible to kill a unit each turn.

Have there been any rumors on what the other knights are armed with? We know the big dude has a million guns and one has a spear, what else do we know?

So all the rumors focus on knights (duh) but is everything still going to be LOW? Are knights going to be delegated to nothing but super heavy detachment? Be nice if one of the kits was a troop and hq or if they’d give us praefect hqs and house guard troops so we could battalion. But then there’s imperial guard for that so at the end of the day it’s not that important

gendoikari87 wrote:
So all the rumors focus on knights (duh) but is everything still going to be LOW? Are knights going to be delegated to nothing but super heavy detachment? Be nice if one of the kits was a troop and hq or if they’d give us praefect hqs and house guard troops so we could battalion. But then there’s imperial guard for that so at the end of the day it’s not that important

It would be nice if they followed FW's lead from the Heresy. But I highly doubt that will ever happen.

Unfortunately not but at 2000pts you can still bring a brigade of ig and super heavy detachment. Giving it the grand strategist trait should make for enough cp

So June is when things start happening for knights yeah?

 Ideasweasel wrote:
So June is when things start happening for knights yeah?

Late may early june. Something like that. All we know is it's before orks and after harlequins.

I have to imagine we'll know more after warhammer fest this weekend. Surely they tease the date and/or show off a few armiger variants etc.

One can only hope.

at this point I'd say august is most likely. or end of july. Time it to be around the time of the titanicus release

Current rumour mill suggests second week of June for release

One of the new rumoured kits is "Knight Preceptor / Special Character (with full cockpit & pilot figure)", and with Armigers in action, there does seem at least the possibility of more structured Knight formations.

Sources: spikeybits and belloflostsouls

https://spikeybits.com/2018/05/knight-castellan-valiant-rules-rumors.html

Legit?

I sure hope so!

I kind of doubt a dam 10 weapon will be introduced in a codex

https://spikeybits.com/2018/05/6-new-knight-house-rules-spotted-rumors.html

All the salt for those rumors. I wouldn't call SpikeyBits a reliable source.

As a Chaos player who runs a Renegade Knight, I’d be happy with <Legion> being added to their faction keywords.

One can dream ...

So I've decided I'm taking Knights to the GT in July. This has hilarious written all over it

Ha, I found this thread once more!

So let’s ignore the potential points cost at the moment, but how ‘bout some Valiant strategy?

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/GWPreview-May27-KnightValiant1ed.jpg

They say this big son of a gun will be the close range walking castle. Will he be worth it to take, strategically? How many layers of guardsman need to stand in front of it?

 Apple Peel wrote:
Ha, I found this thread once more!

So let’s ignore the potential points cost at the moment, but how ‘bout some Valiant strategy?

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/GWPreview-May27-KnightValiant1ed.jpg

They say this big son of a gun will be the close range walking castle. Will he be worth it to take, strategically? How many layers of guardsman need to stand in front of it?

with the changes to deepstrike i don't think it's as necessary to worry about screeners as much. (watch some dumb gak interpret that as saying screeners aren't important at all anymore).

I think the bigger question, at least for myself, will be: Do i want 1 of the BIG knights and a tone of armigers or 2 crusaders and a bunch but fewer smaller armigers. IN any case i'll still be packing a brigade of guard for screening/CP generation.

gendoikari87 wrote:


I think the bigger question, at least for myself, will be: Do i want 1 of the BIG knights and a tone of armigers or 2 crusaders and a bunch but fewer smaller armigers. IN any case i'll still be packing a brigade of guard for screening/CP generation.

Ideally I think you want multiples of three for bonus CP whichever you choose. Since I don't own any IG, I'm debating how best to build a 1750, and I think it'll be crusaders and four Armigers (depending on points drops of course)

I am pretty excited.

I attempted to get involved with 40k last year via Grey Knights but my first love is the giant robots.

Godeskian wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:


I think the bigger question, at least for myself, will be: Do i want 1 of the BIG knights and a tone of armigers or 2 crusaders and a bunch but fewer smaller armigers. IN any case i'll still be packing a brigade of guard for screening/CP generation.

Ideally I think you want multiples of three for bonus CP whichever you choose. Since I don't own any IG, I'm debating how best to build a 1750, and I think it'll be crusaders and four Armigers (depending on points drops of course)

I am honestly leaning toward this. Grapping the renegade box and multiple armigers. the new knights are fancy but i'm sure relics are going to be abundant and if we get the multiple deal all should be good. my current plan for 2000 is

1 Battalion of Imperial guard for screening
1 Super heavy detachment with Crusader and 2x Helverins
1 super heavy detachment with Warden and 2x2 Armigers

Guard will be giving the relic and warlord trait that gives extra CP and between the three detatchments that's 14 CP. Then i'll give the crusader and warden relics (unless it turns out you HAVE to make your LOW a warlord to give them relics. then only one obviously and the IG get no warlord)

While nothing is set in stone until the codex comes out, I'm hoping I can cram at least one of the big knights, two regular ones and an Armiger into 1750, for a tourney I'm going to

Is there any hint of points on the new Castellan?

 w0nderland wrote:
Is there any hint of points on the new Castellan?

Rumors say about 670ish, but another rumor also said you can fit 3 at 1,850.

I guess my question is ... do I want one?
And or the new character knight and or Renegade and or Armigers. And the codex.

Seems best to let the codex drop and try and work out what the viable units will be.

Regardless of whether its objectively good, I'll be buying a Castellan because it looks boss.

I really want to run a Gallant, but may wind up running the Errant with Thermal Cannon and Thunderstrike Gauntlet (Or magnetize the one arm and be able to run either-or).

That said, anyone have any experience running the Gallant pattern knight? I want one to run with my Vostroyan guard. (Fielding it as the Manifest Fury, piloted by the freeblade knight Sir Yardan).

Plan is to have the left chest mount be a Meltagun, with the thunderstrike gauntlet on the left arm, and the reaper chain sword on the right arm, possibly with the thermal cannon being an alternative build option.

Any feedback and thoughts appreciated. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Problem with gallant is that you are fielding 2 CC weapons but you have to use either or. Ability to switch isn't that useful compared to having big gun. Especially with 3-4 model army where you cannot have guys fiddling thumbs. Gallant will be sitting duck first turn and so only does something turn 2 onward. And really when having one or the other isn't enough?

At least 7th you got extra attack out of 2 weapons.

Caved in and asked FLGS to get me some. Will have errant, errant/paladin, 2 fully magnetized knight, looks like 2 autocannon baby knight, will get forge bane and also castellan. That ought to be decent knight household to support my IG.

As for your build configuration...Just magnetize it so that you can field any of the patterns. This expensive kit no point settling on one. Stupid me for being timid with first knight.

Hopefully the Gallant gets some suitable price drops in the coming codex, since it's all melee all the time. I only own one knight, and don't have any plans for more than one.

As I said, I plan on being able to run it as a Gallant and as an Errant (Thermal Cannon and Thunderstrike Gauntlet), so I'll be able to play it two different ways and see which I prefer, but at least visually the Gallant wins all day long for me personally.

I do hope the Gallant gets the extra attack rule back also, as an aside, as it makes sense thematically having 2 weapons. Or, give the Reaper Chainsword and Thunder Strike Gauntlet both an extra attack a-la the normal chainsword rule so that Gallants get an extra 2 attacks for fielding all Melee weapons. Would give them some added threat for their specialty.

Just thinking out loud. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

So the household rules leak seems to be correct, when you compare them with the teasers from the 40k facebook page.
I would like to rank their effectiveness.

Reminder:

Questor Imperial Houses

Terryn: extra d6 advance or change
Cadmus: reroll wounds in CC on anything with less than 12w profile
Griffith: +1A when charging, charged, or via Heroic Intervention.
Mortan: +1 to hit when charging, charged, or via Heroic Intervention.
Hawkshroud: has double wounds for statline purposes when damaged
forgoten knight walpaper

Questor Mechanicus Houses

Raven: When they make Advance moves, treat Heavy weapons as Assault weapons.
Taranis: 6+ FNP against Mortal Wounds.
Krast: RR hits when charging, charged, or via Heroic Intervention against TITAN keyword
Vulker: Rerolls 1’s when targeting the closest enemy unit during the shooting phase.

A simple price reduction for the gallant could make it a terror. Imagine it being 350 points. Or 300. Basically a giant bullet magnet for cheap

For households I'm leaning toward Terryn or Hawkshroud. Vulker maybe.

We taking any bets on whether the new big Knights are stuck with their 2 Primary weapons?

IE: Harpoon/Flamer and Plasma/Volcano

Or do we think they might be able to maybe swap them out?

IE: Flamer/Flamer and Plasma/Plasma, etc

I'm, personally, hoping I can double down and I am more than happy to buy a second kit to facilitate that. Lmao

Since theylook like separate kits not a chance

I wish I'd been smart enough to magnetise all the weapon options with my first quartet of knights. Sigh. Oh well

tneva82 wrote:
Since theylook like separate kits not a chance

A few things.

1.) I don't think they're separate kits. I think they're "separate" in the same way AOS kits are, in that some are sold with a different name, but the contents are all the same.

2.) I mostly mean even if they ARE single kits, I'm happy to run 2x Flamers, or 2x Plasma which are options from a single kit. I'm not in any way attempting to swap weapons cross Knight.

Looks like you could run 3 autocannon turrets or 6 Missile turrets, as the Dominus has 3 carapace hard points.

SJ

 Cephalobeard wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Since theylook like separate kits not a chance

A few things.

1.) I don't think they're separate kits. I think they're "separate" in the same way AOS kits are, in that some are sold with a different name, but the contents are all the same.

2.) I mostly mean even if they ARE single kits, I'm happy to run 2x Flamers, or 2x Plasma which are options from a single kit. I'm not in any way attempting to swap weapons cross Knight.

Maybe. We'll see. Flg asked which one i wanted.

As for 2...depends do you get 2 plasma in 1 box or not. We have seen nothing indicating yes

I specifically imagine there will only be one of each option per box. However, it's possible this becomes a thing similar to Renegade Knights where the Renegade version can dual wield when the imperial cannot, but we'll see.

Current gw...anyway flgs guy said unlike say mek gun that's 1 order code(gw site has it as 4 units) big knights are 2 order choices so 1 kit with both options unlikely. I went with plasma guy. Harpoon looks weird fos me

Interesting. Obviously they don't want people magnetising two builds out of one kit

Bit of a shame considering the only difference is from the "elbow" down on each kit.

Oh well. The arms will only be $30-50 each on ebay, I'd wager. Still cheaper than full kits.

Next year they will release a third variant and package them all in one box!

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Bit of a shame considering the only difference is from the "elbow" down on each kit.

Oh well. The arms will only be $30-50 each on ebay, I'd wager. Still cheaper than full kits.

I doubt that!
Considering only 1 of each arm in box who in thier right mind will sell thier arms and play armless knights. You’ll be lucky to find them under $50 for a while.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/29/29th-may-meet-the-dominus-class-knightgw-homepage-post-1/

Some pretty crazy abilities. If these have a good price I could see the Dominuses knights being good centerpiece models for a variety of armies.

Ion Aegis for example being able to potentially give a line a of Imperial Guard tanks 5+ invuln is pretty nice, as is their oathbreaker shield piercer missile strategem that basically let's you drop characters reliably even if they can't be seen. Given the popularity of IG company commanders to be CP batteries, having an ability that practically guarantees you can kill him turn 1 is very handy. Now they'd have to hide them in a vehicle or fortification.

Big kicker will be the price, but I like that GW seems to be leaning toward more Xd3 weapons as well for more consistent rolls and averages. I'm pretty sure I'd want the Castellan as it's basically an Executioner tank and a shadowsword wrapped into one titan, but that flamer on the other variant is deadly enough to even threaten most planes.

If the rumours about Armigers are correct then they might be quite spammable.

~165 for a 12 wound guy with decent wounds, speed and ability in cc (especially if the rumours they're gettnig a sweep attack are true) would be a great little unit. I could honestly see a case for taking a whole bunch of them. 6 come in at around 1k points. You could have 8 of them and one of the big guys in 2k.

Whether or not they get the multi-attack is crucial to whether this would work at all. So is the profile of the autocannons on the Helligers.

My gut says the autocannons are just autocannons.... maybe icarus autocannons

Sounds they are 2d3 shot autocannons. Bit odd weapon choice

For $170 USD it would be great if it was a single kit that could be magnetised.

So it would. Why you think gw decided not to?

Someone above ...

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Bit of a shame considering the only difference is from the "elbow" down on each kit.

Oh well. The arms will only be $30-50 each on ebay, I'd wager. Still cheaper than full kits.

As someone (I think) who know very well the bits business and order easily more than 400€ of bits a year, I can guarentee that you wont find the single most desirable bits of a 170$ kit for less than 100 USD.
Thats literally the only thing of value in the box.

ALSO, The Carapace are different on the two models and I dont see GW giving 2 carapace on top of Huge weapons for both types in a single kit for "only" 170$. So definetly 2 different kits.

Do we know if the meltas on the dominus knights can be swapped for something else? I really wouldn't want 60 pts worth of 12' guns on a model that will most likely sit back and lob shells...

So, three single Armigers in a LOW detachment and rhen a second LOW detachment with your main knights? Get 9 command points to work with.

Was thinking of a volcano/plasma dominus with missiles, and either a pair of crusaders or two FW Knights, depending. Will probably run them as freeblades, since Ive painted all my knights in different schemes.

tneva82 wrote:
Sounds they are 2d3 shot autocannons. Bit odd weapon choice

I'd hope that they aren't just D3 shots apiece - especially when the "cannons" on the new Knights are 2D3 apiece... But then... This is GW, and logic doesn't really apply.

If the big Dominus is two kits, I'll take whichever one doesn't have the Plasma-type gun and kitbash from my Plasma Destructor instead.

Thoughts on the super flamer?

Well if the leaked terrain piece does max out random shots then put them both next to your shooting units and delete basically any hoard or CC unit that comes to tarpit or kill them.

I\m betting on rerolls rather than max shots.

Even then, you could still get a noticeable increase if you're only rerolling 1s, 2s and maybe 3s if you feel lucky.

Assuming that's not rerolling to hit's.

If my friend is right, it's max shots, regain d6 Wounds or refresh your used one-shot-weapons. For 32.50€ I'd take one.

Depending on points cost, the Forge Shrine may end up being an autoinclude, shoving a Dominus Knight on it and never leaving so you can keep it at a decent wound count, or max shots on weapons. Refresh a missile may be the lesser choice, depending on how actually effective the shrine is, and how effective the other weapons are. If the shrine max's shots on all weapons, it'll be rather absurd.

The problem with terrain is even if it does slightly improve efficiency it usually costs so much it’s better to just take another unit that actually does real Damage.

So with today’s announcement knights got about twice as durable. 5++ to 4++ on up to two knights will be easy. If the relic holds true that’s two knights always at 4++ with one at 3++ due to RIS.

They will be vulnerable in cc however....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to get real froggy, and RIS does not specify a max, use all three on a single knight for a 2++ against shooting

Hi folks.

So those with forgeworld knights. Can someone assist me with the legality of playing them in 40k.

How do stratagems and relics etc work now the codex has been previewed. If I were to buy 3 acastus knights could I make them house Taranis and use stratagems on them legally? Or are forgeworld choosing to leave this a mystery?

I notice apps like BattleScribe etc let you add them do 40k. And yet on forgeworld website the porphryion only shows up under 30k.

Chapter approved however had point increases for forgeworld knights and applies to 40k not other game systems.

For someone new to the knights like I am it’s very confusing. Maybe I’m being a bit slow too haha.

40k rules are in index sold separately. Legal there.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Hi folks.

So those with forgeworld knights. Can someone assist me with the legality of playing them in 40k.

How do stratagems and relics etc work now the codex has been previewed. If I were to buy 3 acastus knights could I make them house Taranis and use stratagems on them legally? Or are forgeworld choosing to leave this a mystery?

I notice apps like BattleScribe etc let you add them do 40k. And yet on forgeworld website the porphryion only shows up under 30k.

Chapter approved however had point increases for forgeworld knights and applies to 40k not other game systems.

For someone new to the knights like I am it’s very confusing. Maybe I’m being a bit slow too haha.

Presumably, since the other books are this way, the Questor Imperialis keyword is what determines if you get strategems or not, so as long as your army is battle forged and you have a detachment of Questor Imperialism, you should be good to go. Some strategems will also probably to specific to what household keyword the knight has, so you'll want to be aware of that as well. Household will also determine what chapter tactics your knights get. But generally you will just treat the FW knights the same as any other unit.

The free relic is unlocked by whatever faction your warlord is from, but if you've unlocked a factions strategems, you can spend CP to get 1-2 from their list of relics.

I don't suppose anyone has done the math on the Castallen vs Crusader yet have they?

Kdash wrote:
I don't suppose anyone has done the math on the Castallen vs Crusader yet have they?

From Gryphonne.

Gryphonne wrote:
Points values below, these are from SS82s preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZII_xblylU&t=1s

These do not include carapace weapons! Sorry for the formatting, also note, might have some mistakes

Warden 285 + (75 + 17) + 30 + 4 = 411
Errant 285 + 76 + 30 + 4 = 395
Gallant 285(?) + 30 + 35 + 4 = 354
Warglaive 160 + 4 (includes Thermal Spear and Chaincleaver)
Helverin 170 + 4 (includes Armiger Autocannon)
Paladin 285 + (100 + 4) + 30 + 4 = 423
Crusader 285 + (75 + 17) + (100 + 4) + 4 = 485
Canis Rex 450 (Includes all wargear)
Valiant 500, includes Metla and 2 primary weapons for free + weapon options on 3 carapace hardpoints
Castellan 510, includes Metla and 2 primary weapons for free + weapon options on 3 carapace hardpoints
Preceptor 385 (Includes Las Impulsor) + 30 + 4 = 419

Also, Gallant is now 5 attacks and WS2+.

Thermal Cannon 76
Stormspear 45
Reaper chainsword 30
Gauntlet 35
Avenger Gatling 75
Heavy Flamer 17
Rapid Fire BC 100
Stubber 4
Shieldbreaker Missile 12
Siegebreaker Cannon 35

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Super heavy Detatchment 1
Knight warden (Ion Trait, Endless Fury, Stormspear, Thunderstrike, melta) 474
2 x Armiger Warglaive (stubber) 328
2 x Armiger Warglaive (stubber) 328

Super Heavy 2
Knight Paladin (TBD defensive trait, invuln relic(cp), Icarus autocannon, Melta) 466
Armiger Helverin 174
Armiger Helverin 174

Total 1944

High King Tybalt and his Kingsward sally forth!

gendoikari87 wrote:

Spoiler:

Kdash wrote:
I don't suppose anyone has done the math on the Castallen vs Crusader yet have they?

From Gryphonne.

Gryphonne wrote:
Points values below, these are from SS82s preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZII_xblylU&t=1s

These do not include carapace weapons! Sorry for the formatting, also note, might have some mistakes

Warden 285 + (75 + 17) + 30 + 4 = 411
Errant 285 + 76 + 30 + 4 = 395
Gallant 285(?) + 30 + 35 + 4 = 354
Warglaive 160 + 4 (includes Thermal Spear and Chaincleaver)
Helverin 170 + 4 (includes Armiger Autocannon)
Paladin 285 + (100 + 4) + 30 + 4 = 423
Crusader 285 + (75 + 17) + (100 + 4) + 4 = 485
Canis Rex 450 (Includes all wargear)
Valiant 500, includes Metla and 2 primary weapons for free + weapon options on 3 carapace hardpoints
Castellan 510, includes Metla and 2 primary weapons for free + weapon options on 3 carapace hardpoints
Preceptor 385 (Includes Las Impulsor) + 30 + 4 = 419

Also, Gallant is now 5 attacks and WS2+.

Thermal Cannon 76
Stormspear 45
Reaper chainsword 30
Gauntlet 35
Avenger Gatling 75
Heavy Flamer 17
Rapid Fire BC 100
Stubber 4
Shieldbreaker Missile 12
Siegebreaker Cannon 35

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super heavy Detatchment 1
Knight warden (Ion Trait, Endless Fury, Stormspear, Thunderstrike, melta) 474
2 x Armiger Warglaive (stubber) 328
2 x Armiger Warglaive (stubber) 328

Super Heavy 2
Knight Paladin (TBD defensive trait, invuln relic(cp), Icarus autocannon, Melta) 466
Armiger Helverin 174
Armiger Helverin 174

Total 1944

High King Tybalt and his Kingsward sally forth!

Just be aware though - you'd be starting the game with only 2CP with that setup :(

Kdash wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Spoiler:

Kdash wrote:
I don't suppose anyone has done the math on the Castallen vs Crusader yet have they?

From Gryphonne.

Gryphonne wrote:
Points values below, these are from SS82s preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZII_xblylU&t=1s

These do not include carapace weapons! Sorry for the formatting, also note, might have some mistakes

Warden 285 + (75 + 17) + 30 + 4 = 411
Errant 285 + 76 + 30 + 4 = 395
Gallant 285(?) + 30 + 35 + 4 = 354
Warglaive 160 + 4 (includes Thermal Spear and Chaincleaver)
Helverin 170 + 4 (includes Armiger Autocannon)
Paladin 285 + (100 + 4) + 30 + 4 = 423
Crusader 285 + (75 + 17) + (100 + 4) + 4 = 485
Canis Rex 450 (Includes all wargear)
Valiant 500, includes Metla and 2 primary weapons for free + weapon options on 3 carapace hardpoints
Castellan 510, includes Metla and 2 primary weapons for free + weapon options on 3 carapace hardpoints
Preceptor 385 (Includes Las Impulsor) + 30 + 4 = 419

Also, Gallant is now 5 attacks and WS2+.

Thermal Cannon 76
Stormspear 45
Reaper chainsword 30
Gauntlet 35
Avenger Gatling 75
Heavy Flamer 17
Rapid Fire BC 100
Stubber 4
Shieldbreaker Missile 12
Siegebreaker Cannon 35

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super heavy Detatchment 1
Knight warden (Ion Trait, Endless Fury, Stormspear, Thunderstrike, melta) 474
2 x Armiger Warglaive (stubber) 328
2 x Armiger Warglaive (stubber) 328

Super Heavy 2
Knight Paladin (TBD defensive trait, invuln relic(cp), Icarus autocannon, Melta) 466
Armiger Helverin 174
Armiger Helverin 174

Total 1944

High King Tybalt and his Kingsward sally forth!

Just be aware though - you'd be starting the game with only 2CP with that setup :(

*puts on monacle* Jolly good, 2CP sounds Terrific. I assumed i'd have to waste all CP on the extra character trait strat and Relic strat. So that's 2 more CP than I thought i'd have. Jolly good and good hunting and all that!

Woof...

Ok. So I'm going to field a single freeblade knight with my Vostroyan Firstborn guard.

From the fluff, Sir Yardan and his Knight, Manifest Fury.

Going to build it as a Gallant with the chest mount sporting a meltagun so I can advance and still shoot. Should be a literal TON of fun with 5 attacks base, and hitting on 2+, he should be the apex predator of Distraction Carnifexes for the fairly reasonable price of 359 points.

Looking forward to this for sure.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

So.... two SH detachments:

3x Gallants in one
Warden, Gallant and a Warglaive in another

Lol five Knights? I have no seen anything from the 'Dex (nor even watched the video), so that may be silly but I am hellbent on having five on the table dammit!

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
So.... two SH detachments:

3x Gallants in one
Warden, Gallant and a Warglaive in another

Lol five Knights? I have no seen anything from the 'Dex (nor even watched the video), so that may be silly but I am hellbent on having five on the table dammit!

You're going to run into the "no more than three of a unit" (optional) rule.

 raverrn wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
So.... two SH detachments:

3x Gallants in one
Warden, Gallant and a Warglaive in another

Lol five Knights? I have no seen anything from the 'Dex (nor even watched the video), so that may be silly but I am hellbent on having five on the table dammit!

You're going to run into the "no more than three of a unit" (optional) rule.

Unlike chaos knights, imperial knights have 3 distinct data cards

But not 2 separate gallant sheets. 4 gallants.

Winters SEO has a review on YouTube of the new codex. Mouth saws a few things, but lots of interesting things coming

Two Gallants, an Errant, a Warden, a Crusader. 5 Knights, will tide me over until they fix the FW points, I think.

Can't think of a better way to get 5 knights in a list, anyone else?

Probably make the Crusader the Character/Warlord/ with the relic gatling gun. The Gallants get 15 stomps each hitting on 2s.

Throwing errands into the mix helps.

I think I’d go with a warden, errant, crusader (with battlecannon) and two gallants. That comes to 1999.

I’m trying to work out a list with an admech battalion to go with my Taranis knights. I’m thinking something like:

Castellan with Cawl’s wrath and 4++.
Paladin
Crusader with bc
Armiger Warglaive

Then a stygies battalion comprising:
2 enginseers
2x5 Rangers
3 breachers with heavy arc rifles and torsion claws

That leaves me with 40 points for toys. I could give the rangers an arc rifle or two and/or stick carapace weapons on my questoris knights. Maybe upgrade some rangers to vanguard, though mostly I expect I’ll be having them camp objectives so they’d benefit marginally more from the range.

Oh yeah, forgot about that stupid rule. So, I guess that list needs a tweak. I'll brainstorm when I have the Codex in hand. But I'm hell-bent on 5 Knights. Because it'll look sick.

Currently playing between two ideas at 1750, which is what my area has moved to locally.

I can fit:

Admech Battalion
2x Enginseer
3x 5 Rangers

AM Battalion
2x Company Commander
1x 9 Infantry 1 mortar
2x 10 Infantry

Super-heavy
Lancer
5x Armiger or Gallant, 3x Armiger

ORRRR, I can do:

Admech Battalion
2x Enginseer
3x 5 Rangers, 2 Snipers w/ Omnispex

AM Battalion
2x Company Commander
3x 9 Infantry 1 Mortar

Super-heavy
1x Lancer
2x Gallant or 1x Gallant 2x Armiger

I'm more interested in the first list, using the Lancer, Gallant and 3x Warglaives.

Between being House Terryn, Outflanking the unit of 3 Warglaives, Full tilt charging the Lancer, etc, I'm getting a good amount of turn 1 charges.

Can you pick any combination of missiles cannons on top of the new guys or are they set?

Seems at least 2/1 and 1/2 are possible. Whether 3/0 or 0/3 are possible I don't know.

jcd386 wrote:

 Ideasweasel wrote:
Hi folks.

So those with forgeworld knights. Can someone assist me with the legality of playing them in 40k.

How do stratagems and relics etc work now the codex has been previewed. If I were to buy 3 acastus knights could I make them house Taranis and use stratagems on them legally? Or are forgeworld choosing to leave this a mystery?

I notice apps like BattleScribe etc let you add them do 40k. And yet on forgeworld website the porphryion only shows up under 30k.

Chapter approved however had point increases for forgeworld knights and applies to 40k not other game systems.

For someone new to the knights like I am it’s very confusing. Maybe I’m being a bit slow too haha.

Presumably, since the other books are this way, the Questor Imperialis keyword is what determines if you get strategems or not, so as long as your army is battle forged and you have a detachment of Questor Imperialism, you should be good to go. Some strategems will also probably to specific to what household keyword the knight has, so you'll want to be aware of that as well. Household will also determine what chapter tactics your knights get. But generally you will just treat the FW knights the same as any other unit.

The free relic is unlocked by whatever faction your warlord is from, but if you've unlocked a factions strategems, you can spend CP to get 1-2 from their list of relics.

Cheers,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
40k rules are in index sold separately. Legal there.

You guys helped clear that all up for me

So let me get this straight, If I am bringing a knight in a super heavy auxiliary detachment as an ally, I can spend 1 CP to turn him into a character with an warlord trait and another to give him a relic and he can still bring the household rules because the knight lances rule doesn't affect the auxiliary detachment?

So for example for 2 CP. I can have an ally Hawkshroud Knight with the 4++ warlord trait and any relic I feel like it, even if my army is from another faction. Or do knights have a rule similar to the IG one for super heavy auxiliary detachment where they can't get the regiment rules.

 GuardStrider wrote:
So let me get this straight, If I am bringing a knight in a super heavy auxiliary detachment as an ally, I can spend 1 CP to turn him into a character with an warlord trait and another to give him a relic and he can still bring the household rules because the knight lances rule doesn't affect the auxiliary detachment?

So for example for 2 CP. I can have an ally Hawkshroud Knight with the 4++ warlord trait and any relic I feel like it, even if my army is from another faction. Or do knights have a rule similar to the IG one for super heavy auxiliary detachment where they can't get the regiment rules.

I think you should be able to do this.

So I’ll be trading in a warglaive to get a guard battalion... brings me to 8 cp .... 2 questoris knights 5 armigers 29 infantry models with three missile launchers

While good value as the Renegade boxed set only comes with one of the Warden upgrade sprues what are thoughts on running Questoris class Knights without the rocket pod. If you're running just Knights I would have thought you'd want all the guns you can bring to get the most out of each Knight and the Iccarus Autocannon alternative look rather meh.

 Astmeister wrote:

 GuardStrider wrote:
So let me get this straight, If I am bringing a knight in a super heavy auxiliary detachment as an ally, I can spend 1 CP to turn him into a character with an warlord trait and another to give him a relic and he can still bring the household rules because the knight lances rule doesn't affect the auxiliary detachment?

So for example for 2 CP. I can have an ally Hawkshroud Knight with the 4++ warlord trait and any relic I feel like it, even if my army is from another faction. Or do knights have a rule similar to the IG one for super heavy auxiliary detachment where they can't get the regiment rules.

I think you should be able to do this.

I don't think you'll get an Household tradition for an Auxiliary

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:

 GuardStrider wrote:
So let me get this straight, If I am bringing a knight in a super heavy auxiliary detachment as an ally, I can spend 1 CP to turn him into a character with an warlord trait and another to give him a relic and he can still bring the household rules because the knight lances rule doesn't affect the auxiliary detachment?

So for example for 2 CP. I can have an ally Hawkshroud Knight with the 4++ warlord trait and any relic I feel like it, even if my army is from another faction. Or do knights have a rule similar to the IG one for super heavy auxiliary detachment where they can't get the regiment rules.

I think you should be able to do this.

I don't think you'll get an Household tradition for an Auxiliary

There's nothing that we know of right now that says otherwise, and there's nothing that leads me to believe you couldn't.

tneva82 wrote:
Seems at least 2/1 and 1/2 are possible. Whether 3/0 or 0/3 are possible I don't know.

Thanks. Perhaps if I scour the review videos I can find a shot of the datasheet to clarify.

Here's my Starting point for a 2k Knights list:

+++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [131 PL, 1998pts] +++

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) ++

Household: Taranis

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Helverin
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

Armiger Helverin
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

Knight Errant: Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword, Thermal cannon

Knight Gallant: Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet

Knight Gallant: Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) ++

Forge World: Lucius

+ HQ +

Tech-Priest Enginseer: Omnissian Axe, Servo-arm

Tech-Priest Enginseer: Omnissian Axe, Servo-arm, The Solar Flare
. Warlord: Necromechanic

+ Troops +

Skitarii Rangers: 4x Skitarii Ranger
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle

Skitarii Rangers: 4x Skitarii Ranger
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle

Skitarii Rangers: 4x Skitarii Ranger
. Ranger Alpha: Galvanic rifle

Created with BattleScribe

11 cp starting, burning three on Exalted court to Character everyone - Ion Bulwark on one and Landstrider on the other. The Bulwark goes first and provides cover for the other. One more CP for the Helm Dominatus for the Errant. Seven CP is low, but it's still probably workable. If there's a particularly heavy gunline, look to spend just one on Exalted Court and Sally Forth with the Landstrider model. Also Lucius gives you the ability to hold one Ranger unit for Deep Strike, and the Solar Flare + Necromechanic + Tech-Adept lets you heal 4 wounds a turn and also keep up with your knights. Probably be used to keep the Helverins up, however.

Well, from the looks of it, I am going to be running the following Knight Setup:

House Mortan

Warden with Thunderstrike Gauntlet (upgraded to the Paragon Gauntlet) with a Stormspear Rocket Pod - 461 pts

Warden with Thunderstrike Gauntlet (AGC upgraded to Endless Fury) with a Stormspear Rocket Pod - 461 pts

Valiant with 2x Siegebreaker Missiles and 2x Siegebreaker Cannon with Traitor's Pyre - 594 pts

Total is 1516 pts.

I am thinking a small contingent of Primaris Space Marines will run alongside them (a Captain, Librarian with Null Zone, and three squads of Intercessors). The total price is 480 pts.

This gives me 11 command points of which I will be spending 3 from the start for additional relic (which, according to the reviews I have watched, makes the Knights a character so they can perform Heroic Interventions).

Fluffwise, I am making the Valiant the High King (he will be the Warlord with the Ion Bulwark Warlord Trait. The two Wardens are his fraternal twins sons.

How do you get so many knight characters to use the relics arnt you limited to 1?

U02dah4 wrote:
How do you get so many knight characters to use the relics arnt you limited to 1?

My understanding of the Strategem is that it is one of two ways to get additional Knight characters. Exalted Court is the other. One gives you relics, the other gives you Warlord traits.

I believe you have to use two separate stratagems. One to make them characters with a warlord trait, and one to give them a relic. I really hope I’m incorrect though as that’d free up 3 CP from my list.

EDIT: Oh wow, crazy timing. See above.

The two stratagems are separate.

Exalted Court costs 1/3 CP and allows you to choose 1/2 non-character knights. They become characters and gain a warlord trait. You may not choose the same trait more than once.

Heirlooms of the Household costs 1/3 CP and allows you to take 1/2 relics on character knights in any detachment.

For each Super-heavy Detachment you have one Knight in that detachment is chosen to be a Character (for free).

If your Warlord is a Knight then one model in his detachment may take a relic for free.

As far as I can see, there's no way to make an Armiger a character.

Isnt the wording on the lance detatchment rule

If your army is Battle-forged, select one model from every Imperial Knights detachment. Those models gain the Character keyword

Wouldnt that let you character an armiger

Well, if the Relic Strategem doesn't allow you to put the relics on additional models somehow, it is worthless.

No it works i wasnt aware there was a character strategem so I assumed you had to do it by multi detatchmenting

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Well, if the Relic Strategem doesn't allow you to put the relics on additional models somehow, it is worthless.

It's not worthless because there are various ways to get extra character knights to give relics. For example:

- Use the stratagem to have a second (or third) knight character.
- Run a second detachment of knights.
- Run one detachment of knights, but have some random character in another detachment be your warlord. Now you need to user the stratagem to give your character knight a relic.

There are plenty of good reasons to make someone else your warlord. Knights are far from invincible and can't be hidden, and you might like some of the other warlord traits.

I'm definitely thinking about running a brigade or maybe a battalion of guard with my knights for obsec and command point purposes. Are there any leaks on point costs already?

Just wish I knew if Armigers could be characters. I picked up 4 for dirt cheap when forgebanes dropped and didn't feel like running a big knight. I know there are some relics that help them so if I could make even just one a character it'd be really nice.

Warden 285 + (75 + 17) + 30 + 4 = 411
Errant 285 + 76 + 30 + 4 = 395
Gallant 285(?) + 30 + 35 + 4 = 354
Warglaive 160 + 4 (includes Thermal Spear and Chaincleaver)
Helverin 170 + 4 (includes Armiger Autocannon)
Paladin 285 + (100 + 4) + 30 + 4 = 423
Crusader 285 + (75 + 17) + (100 + 4) + 4 = 485
Canis Rex 450 (Includes all wargear)
Valiant 500, includes Metla and 2 primary weapons for free + weapon options on 3 carapace hardpoints
Castellan 510, includes Metla and 2 primary weapons for free + weapon options on 3 carapace hardpoints
Preceptor 385 (Includes Las Impulsor) + 30 + 4 = 419

Also, Gallant is now 5 attacks and WS2+.

Thermal Cannon 76
Stormspear 45
Reaper chainsword 30
Gauntlet 35
Avenger Gatling 75
Heavy Flamer 17
Rapid Fire BC 100
Stubber 4
Shieldbreaker Missile 12
Siegebreaker Cannon 35

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Just wish I knew if Armigers could be characters. I picked up 4 for dirt cheap when forgebanes dropped and didn't feel like running a big knight. I know there are some relics that help them so if I could make even just one a character it'd be really nice.

they can but only 1 per detatchment

I see a few people with gallant in their lists now which makes me hapyy. Does this mean they're more viable?

Here's first list I'm planning to try when I get models.

Castellan(2 cannons, 1 missile)
Crusader
Gallant
warglaive
helverin

2 IG commanders, 3 infantry squads(2 with mortars), mortar HWS.

Not sure what house/whatever though I'm thinking of freeblading one of questor knights for fun. For warlord trait maybe 4++ for the castellan as I expect that one to soak up tons of firepower. Maybe character up crusader for relic avenger? One IG commander gets kurov's aquilla for CP stealing. Though requires 3 strategems from opponent to pay back so wonder if it's worth it

8 CP after spending 3 for extra warlord/relic for knight and kurov's aquilla.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fatbudda319 wrote:
I see a few people with gallant in their lists now which makes me hapyy. Does this mean they're more viable?

They did get boost. Whether that's enough remains to be seen. Probably people are interested trying it out so that's why you see them soon. Need to try out whether it's worth it or not.

What about a Megaera made character for a 3++/4++ that you can boost up to 2++/3++ with Rotate Ion Shield?

Using the Index, it was the only knight that at least has a small chance of surviving a round of heavy fire. I think now it can be really hard to bring down...

 Cybtroll wrote:
What about a Megaera made character for a 3++/4++ that you can boost up to 2++/3++ with Rotate Ion Shield?

Using the Index, it was the only knight that at least has a small chance of surviving a round of heavy fire. I think now it can be really hard to bring down...

The Iron Bulwark Warlord Trait gives you a 4+ invulnerable save against shooting, it does not increase your save by one.

Additionally, Rotate Ion Shields increases your invulnerable save to a maximum of 3+

Also the Styrix is leagues better than the Megaera.

That seems a good list to me. I think I’d make the Castellan your warlord with the 4++ trait and go for an admech house so he can have Cawl’s wrath.

Then spend a cp to make your gallant a character too and give him the landstrider trait to boost him and your Armiger. First turn charges for both are feasible.

I’m considering a similar list. The main thing I’d change is to take an admech detachment instead of IG. They are a little more expensive but it lets you use canticles and the knight of the cog stratagem.

On turn 1 you can pick reroll 1s to hit with shooting and give it to your Castellan as he overcharges Cawl’s wrath and fires a missile at some unfortunate character. Later on it might be handy on the gallant to get rerolls of 1s in combat.

The admech guys themselves aren’t really better than the IG, but there are a few shenanigans you can get up to. They’ve got a warlord trait to regain cps, they can repair knights a little bit and stygies guys can infiltrate if you’re prepared to pay for it - which could come in handy sometimes.

I think that being the infantry accompaniment for knights is probably quite a thankless task. There aren’t going to be loads of them and they are going to be shot at by the many enemies that will struggle to hurt the knights.

As such, while they’ll certainly provide a useful cp store, they’ll also give you a far less useful 5 more drops - significantly reducing your chance of getting first turn - and 5 more easy KPs for your opponent. I’m not completely sure this is a good thing overall. It might be, but it needs testing.

So, if I take a gallant in an Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment, does he get the beneftis of household traditions plus can I use Knight stratagems on him i.e. Heirlooms and exalted court?

 Astmeister wrote:

Warden 285 + (75 + 17) + 30 + 4 = 411
Errant 285 + 76 + 30 + 4 = 395
Gallant 285(?) + 30 + 35 + 4 = 354
Warglaive 160 + 4 (includes Thermal Spear and Chaincleaver)
Helverin 170 + 4 (includes Armiger Autocannon)
Paladin 285 + (100 + 4) + 30 + 4 = 423
Crusader 285 + (75 + 17) + (100 + 4) + 4 = 485
Canis Rex 450 (Includes all wargear)
Valiant 500, includes Metla and 2 primary weapons for free + weapon options on 3 carapace hardpoints
Castellan 510, includes Metla and 2 primary weapons for free + weapon options on 3 carapace hardpoints
Preceptor 385 (Includes Las Impulsor) + 30 + 4 = 419

Also, Gallant is now 5 attacks and WS2+.

Thermal Cannon 76
Stormspear 45
Reaper chainsword 30
Gauntlet 35
Avenger Gatling 75
Heavy Flamer 17
Rapid Fire BC 100
Stubber 4
Shieldbreaker Missile 12
Siegebreaker Cannon 35

That Castellan price is without the hardpoint weapons right? Otherwise the difference between the Castellan and the Crusader is smaller than I thought. I am still really undecided which of those two would work better as a fire support ally, guess I'll just wait for battlescribe to update and then make and share some lists to see what people think.

Can you use the strat to make your knight a character and give it a warlord trait then declare it your warlord for a second warlord trait

no. they get the warlord trait AS IF they are a warlord. if they are your warlord they cannot get another one.

Mandragola wrote:
That seems a good list to me. I think I’d make the Castellan your warlord with the 4++ trait and go for an admech house so he can have Cawl’s wrath.

Then spend a cp to make your gallant a character too and give him the landstrider trait to boost him and your Armiger. First turn charges for both are feasible.

I’m considering a similar list. The main thing I’d change is to take an admech detachment instead of IG. They are a little more expensive but it lets you use canticles and the knight of the cog stratagem.

On turn 1 you can pick reroll 1s to hit with shooting and give it to your Castellan as he overcharges Cawl’s wrath and fires a missile at some unfortunate character. Later on it might be handy on the gallant to get rerolls of 1s in combat.

The admech guys themselves aren’t really better than the IG, but there are a few shenanigans you can get up to. They’ve got a warlord trait to regain cps, they can repair knights a little bit and stygies guys can infiltrate if you’re prepared to pay for it - which could come in handy sometimes.

I think that being the infantry accompaniment for knights is probably quite a thankless task. There aren’t going to be loads of them and they are going to be shot at by the many enemies that will struggle to hurt the knights.

As such, while they’ll certainly provide a useful cp store, they’ll also give you a far less useful 5 more drops - significantly reducing your chance of getting first turn - and 5 more easy KPs for your opponent. I’m not completely sure this is a good thing overall. It might be, but it needs testing.

There's enough terrain here that I can hide 1 or 2 infantry squads generally. If he wants to manouver to shoot he'll likely expose himself open for my knights.

Remembered I don't HAVE to have my warlord knight to get warlord traits etc. IG commander to one to get the warlord trait, 3CP to character up 2 of my knights, 3 CP more for 2 relics. 11-6=5 CP. Quite a little but 5+ regene, 5+ steal. 7 and spare+steals in average so about same if opponent uses few strategems only.

Ad mech detachment is out for now unless it's something you can build from forge bane contents but 20 infantry is rather little for infantry and I need 2nd HQ cheaply(money) for that anyway. Actually the dominus is so expensive I cant' fit without dropping something from knights so...I would be looking thus 2 engineers and 3 squads of 5 rangers.

Now albeit who knows maybe I do use them time to time. I never play same lists twice anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iago40k wrote:
So, if I take a gallant in an Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment, does he get the beneftis of household traditions plus can I use Knight stratagems on him i.e. Heirlooms and exalted court?

Unknown yet for first and don't see why not 2nd. For 1st it depends is there similar rule to IG. So far nobody has SAID so but not quarantee.

 Thadin wrote:
Depending on points cost, the Forge Shrine may end up being an autoinclude, shoving a Dominus Knight on it and never leaving so you can keep it at a decent wound count, or max shots on weapons. Refresh a missile may be the lesser choice, depending on how actually effective the shrine is, and how effective the other weapons are. If the shrine max's shots on all weapons, it'll be rather absurd.

The Sacristan Shrine knight scenery piece COULD have been so good...

I'm not one to get angry or rage at GW for shonky rules but I am a bit sad at such a hugely missed opportunity. Paying 80 points and skipping an entire turn to heal d3 wounds?!?!!??!?! Are you crazy??!?!

Here are three ways in which it could have worked which might make it worth taking... in order of preference from 1 to 3.

1. You got the bonus before the negative.
If you end your movement within 1" of the Shrine, in your next shooting phase you get to do one of the standard rites. In your next turn, the knight cannot move, shoot or charge and is reduced to 1 attack.
At least you get the benefit immediately, at full BS on turn one. Then you sacrifice T2 to reload/refuel and can act normally again in T3.

2. The benefits were pretty much tripled
You give up a turn as per standard rules. Then in in the next turn you can either:
- Heal 3d3 wounds
- Fire any one weapon 3 times instead of once
- Move twice in your movement phase as per your current Move characteristic

3. You got all the benefits, not just one.
You give up a turn as per standard rules. Then in your next turn you heal d3 wounds AND fire at maximum capacity AND get a bonus 6".


Anyway, pure theory and wishlisting but if one of the above were the rules it would be an interesting and compelling new model.

As it is, by the time you get a benefit you have skipped a whole turn and are probably hitting on 4's or 5's anyway!

Nuts.

Yeah that shrine is super hyper mega niche. Generally it just ain't worth it. I can think about 1 scenario where that truly would be useful. That's valiant against army that's in 2 parts. One gunline that will begin at ~35" from you and lob at you so you aren't reaching them on turn 1. Other being massed deep strike force that will come down on you on turn 2.

THERE it might be worth it to make sure you make maximum hurt on the deep strike elements.

Rest of time? Unlikely to run into situation where it might be useful.

It's not even going to be any cover for you as it's too small to block LOS so not even purchasable LOS block.

I doubt I would use it much even if it was free...All it does basically is generate bit of area on terrain you have to manouver around. That might be useful to hinder opponents movement but might hinder you as well.

Ironically that usage as enemy movement blocker is about best use it has...

edit: Well same scenario except rather than deep strike regular ground infantry that somehow starts that 35" or so away AND you start the game. And other short ranged knights like gallant but valiant is obviously biggest benefitter from this in this hyper niche scenario.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iago40k wrote:
So, if I take a gallant in an Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment, does he get the beneftis of household traditions plus can I use Knight stratagems on him i.e. Heirlooms and exalted court?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1950/751594.page#10009559

Seems the traditions are listed as what you get for imperial knight detachments(EXCLUDING auxiliary...) so answer would be no after all.

tneva82 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iago40k wrote:
So, if I take a gallant in an Super Heavy Auxiliary detachment, does he get the beneftis of household traditions plus can I use Knight stratagems on him i.e. Heirlooms and exalted court?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1950/751594.page#10009559

Seems the traditions are listed as what you get for imperial knight detachments(EXCLUDING auxiliary...) so answer would be no after all.

Well, bummer there go my plans to get a knight

Well freeblade is pseudo-tradition and seems still legal. Plus warlord&relic&strategems still probably works.

Plus you could get 2 helverins and have the traditions and average 16 S7 -1 D3 shots.

tneva82 wrote:
Well freeblade is pseudo-tradition and seems still legal. Plus warlord&relic&strategems still probably works.

Dunno, It seems to me that the Freeblade stuff is listed in the abilities that can only be taken in the Super Heavy Detachment

 GuardStrider wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well freeblade is pseudo-tradition and seems still legal. Plus warlord&relic&strategems still probably works.

Dunno, It seems to me that the Freeblade stuff is listed in the abilities that can only be taken in the Super Heavy Detachment

Refer to thread I linked. There's more talk there. Promisingly GW in promo material spoke about lone freeblades to support your main army which hints "yes" for freeblades in auxiliary det.

I'm still very much in love with House Terryn.

Waiting on exact wording so I can confirm whether the Outflank works on a unit of Armigers, but if it does then I'm quite excited to unleash martial fury.

We haven't had confirmation but so far IG are the only army where your superheavies don't get regimental tactics in an auxiliary detachment. I'd be surprised if IKs didn't get them.

If all else fails you can take a couple of armigers or helligers. You won't get CPs but you'll be able to make your knight a character for free.

Here's a potential all-knight list. 2000 points on the nose.

Castellan 604
2 turrets and 2 missiles
4++ warlord trait, Cawl's Wrath

Gallant 354
Landstrider warlord trait, maybe

Warden 411
Stock

Crusader 457
Thermal Cannon and Avenger

Helverin 174

My existing guys are house Taranis. I'd stick with that as they seem decent enough.

I've just managed to get a ticket for heat 1 of the 40k GT, and it's actually 1750, not 2k. That's a tricky points value for knights really. It's also in not much over a month's time!Here's a first stab at a list:

Castellan 604
2 turrets and 2 missiles
4++ warlord trait, Cawl's Wrath

Gallant 354
Landstrider warlord trait, maybe

Warden 411
Stock

Tallarn Battalion

Tank commander with punisher and 3 hvy bolters

Tempestor Prime

5 Tempestus Scions

2 infantry squads.

The idea here is to run non-useless IG allies. The tank commander gives me some much-needed anti-horde, the infantry squads can skulk somewhere and the scions can be held back to drop onto objectives.

Fitting in a battalion at 1750 is still really awkward. I'm not at all sure what the best option is, and seriously considering not having one. I've just been looking at sisters as another option, as Celestine would come in very handy. That would mean trading out the Castellan for something smaller though.

There's a screenshot in the News and Rumor thread that says excluding Super-Heavy Auxiliary.

That said, you can still take the House keyword for using stratagems and relics I think. You just won't get the house bonus.

So slighty mech related and also slightly knight related, and actually fluffyish

Current new list thoughts

Stygis bat
Enginseer
Enginseer

5 man ranger squad x3

Stygis bat
Enginseer
Enginseer

5 man ranger squad x3

House Raven knight lance
Knight Gallant with 2+ to move/charge/advance WL and the 2+ armor relic and a top hat stormspear

Knight Castellan with 4 shoulder cannons and 2 missles, Cawls Wrath Relic plasma and 4++ wl trait

Knight Crusader with battle cannon, relic avenger, stormspear hat and either the ignore ap 1 WL trait or the 1cp and 1 reroll or the wounds rolls of 6s do mortal wounds

should be slightly under 2k, 16 command points to start and either 10 or 11 to use in game once all the wl traits/relics are bought

Imperial Knight Lance, 1750 Army

SuperHeavy:

Knight Lancer
Warlord (4++), Relic (2+ Armor)

Knight Gallant
Warlord (5++ vs Melee)

3x Armiger Warglaives
Melta Gun, x3

Cadian Battalion:

2x Company Commander

3x 9 Infantry, 1 Mortar

Cadian Battalion:

2x Company Commander

2x 9 Infantry, 1 Mortar

1x 10 Infantry

----


Here's what I'm working with. Local Meta moved to 1750. Digging it.

Can we actually run the FW knights at this point? Would love to take my lancer.

A Cerastus Acheron, a Gallant and a Warden are 1260 points, leaving you enough for a small but useful Battalion (Elysian, Scion and/or Infantry Squad for objectives) even at 1500 (we usually play this size).

I've had my lancer painted forever. Are they pretty good these days? I haven't played it this edition.

2+ Armor (with a relic) 4++ Inv (Against everything) With a Warlord Trait, pushing to 2+3++ with 1CP.

They're tanks. They don't do a ton of damage, they just don't die.

For those of you running Guard, are you screening or just hunkering down with them?

Depends scenario and opponents army. The more i need to control objectives the more i will try to keep them alive. Knights are few to control objectives

Trying to figure out what combination of Knights to go.
Few ideas I've had, all of these assume at least a minimum Guard battalion tagging along for support;

1) Warden, Gallant, Gallant in House Terryn Knight Lance, then Valiant in Hawkshroud Auxiliary (for stratagem, looks like auxiliary doesn't get tradition rules but should still unlock the Overwatch stratagem).

2) Castellan, Valiant, Gallant in mixed House Knight Lance, then use leftover points for three Culexus Assassins. Castellan is Raven (re-roll 1s stratagem), Valiant is Hawkshroud (Overwatch stratagem), Gallant is Terryn (fight twice stratagem).

3) Same as 2) but instead of anti-psyker assassins, run a second Guard battalion with some Mortar support (should fit 2x3 teams).

It's hard to say whether taking two Dominus' and one Questoris, or one Dominus and three Questoris', is the right way to go. It's impossible to fit two Dominus and two Questoris' alongside a Guard battalion assuming all the leaked points are accurate, otherwise I'd just do that.
As far as the Dominus' shoulder weapons are concerned, I'm thinking going 2xSiegebreaker Cannon hardpoints and 1xShieldbreaker Missile hardpoint (you get 2 missiles in each battery, so 2 guns and 2 missiles) is probably the best way to go. Siegebreakers are only 9 points more than a pair of missiles and can be fired every turn with no restrictions and aren't hungry for Command Points like the Shieldbreakers are.
I don't really care for the Armigers look-wise so they're out, and I want to run at least one Dominus which means the Valiant stays put in each list, though I would prefer to run both as I adore the Castellan too. I don't like tripling up on anything either so the likely soon-to-be-very-popular Gallant trio is not what I want to run. Quite the pickle to be in!

It's sad that the Castellan is so reliant on being Mechanicus-aligned for the relic plasma weapon considering the House Mortan unique 1CP stratagem would let it obliterate Aeldari flyers with ease.

Side note, it sounds like House Terryn's fight twice stratagem doesn't trigger at the end of the phase like similar stratagems from other armies, but after a House Terryn model has made all of its attacks. That's....bananas if it's accurate. Source is GMG Gaming by the way.

How’re you doing a mixed house Knight Lance?

EDIT: Ah, never mind. You’re just forgoing the household benefits in face of just using stratagems, Hrmm. Definitely needs lots of CP’s then.

 Buzzdady wrote:
How’re you doing a mixed house Knight Lance?

EDIT: Ah, never mind. You’re just forgoing the household benefits in face of just using stratagems, Hrmm. Definitely needs lots of CP’s then.

Yeah exactly, a lot of the Knights really want to be from differing households, and the Mechanicus/Imperialis alignment with certain relics and stratagems is limiting unless you go mixed houses in the same detachment. For example, I don't mind losing out on Raven's advance and shoot normally buff for a Castellan if it means I get to give it re-roll 1s for a phase (which is amazing with it's guns in particular) and not lock the other Knights into that household, especially as a Valiant generally wants to be Hawkshroud with that crazy stratagem (or any flavour of Imperialis for the relic flamer) and Terryn seems like a no brainer for a Gallant (fight twice is incredible on them). Of course, actually benefiting from the Hawkshroud trait is good for literally every Knight, but at the same time the Valiant's main draw is the auto-hitting flamer and that doesn't care about a degrading profile. Similarly, being able to combine Full Tilt with Landstrider and the Terryn trait on a Gallant is a tough one to chew, but the Terryn trait itself is the least necessary component of that combo (just roll well for your runs and charges). The codex designers did a really good job of making it tough to decide between pure Household or mixed Household for a Lance depending on what Knights you want to run (and because I want to run Dominus' and Gallants together, that's a tough choice).

Very insightful! Thanks for the write up. Has me thinking though...

If you take a lance under a certain household, and then a super heavy auxiliary with a fourth Knight, you’d be unable to use the stratagem to get extra relics on both detachments, right?

So the lance has 1 relic, use the stratagem to get 2 more. You could only give them to the other knights in that lance, not one to a lance knight and one to the super heavy auxiliary one. I suppose you could make that one a character and your warlord for a relic and then use the stratagem on the lance.

I don't think there's anything stopping you from giving one extra relic to your Lance and the other extra relic to your Auxiliary, ditto with the extra Warlord/character stratagem. It's certainly what I plan on doing if I go for a variation of Option 1) as listed above.

Just worked out that you can legally field Guilliman (Auxiliary), a minimum Guard battalion, and 4 Gallants (Knight Lance) in 2000 points. I wouldn't do it, but good lord that would be terrifying For CP, you get 3 (Guilliman Warlord) + 3 (Knight Lance) + 3 (Battle-Forged) + 5 (Battalion) = 14CP. You'll always spend at least 2CP on the Guard and Knight extra relics (Kurov's + Paragon Gauntlet), maybe 5CP if you want one of the other nice Knight relics a Gallant can use (i.e. Helm for +1 Attack, 2+ save, 5++ in combat, etc), then 3CP for the extra Warlords (4++ on one and Landstrider on the other seem like the best bets). Hopefully you refund a lot of those, then spam Full Tilt and Terryn's fight twice stratagem with Guilliman giving any nearby Knights re-roll 1s to-hit Also, because the Lance automatically makes one of the Knights a character and you can split the extra relic and warlord stratagems among the other three should you wish, you can have all 4 Gallants and Guilliman together capable of massed Heroic Interventions Just watch out for Flyers!

That would make for a pretty crazy game. I really love the flavor this codex adds now, I’ll see how I feel going against them though!

Small side question: your warlord needs to be on the table to refund spent cp’s I believe, so you couldn’t refund ones spent on relics and such as they’re before the game, right?

Good catch, that would be correct. Honestly though that's one of those grey area debates that still hasn't been resolved as far as I know (or did I miss that in the FAQ?)

Haven’t looked for it specifically in a bit, I know that’s how our team and our opponents were handling it at Adepticon anyway. Obviously would be real nice if you could refund though.

While I would never run more than one Knight (I am technically more of a Soup player), in terms of what mix of Knights to do, I would think the deciding factor is WLT, stratagem, and relic scarcity.

That being said, this may be most efficient:

Raven Gallant - Reaper, Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Relic: Armour of the Sainted Ion, WLT: Landstrider
Raven Warden - Avenger, Heavy Flamer, Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear, Relic: Endless Fury or Paragon, WLT: Ion Bulwark
Raven Castellan - Plasma Decimator, Volcano Lance, 2x Shieldbreaker, 2x Twin Meltas, 2x Twin Siegebreaker, Relic: Cawl's Wrath, WLT: Cunning Commander

Can't have duplicate Warlord Traits unfortunately, so no 4++ on multiple Knights without using the stratagem.

Caederes wrote:
Can't have duplicate Warlord Traits unfortunately, so no 4++ on multiple Knights without using the stratagem.

Oh. Well, in that case, I suppose the Castellan gets Cunning Commander? There's not much flexibility here. Gallant needs Landstrider and Armour of the Sainted Ion, Warden needs Ion Bulwark (it's less efficient on the Castellan), and Castellan needs Cawl's Wrath.

 Buzzdady wrote:
That would make for a pretty crazy game. I really love the flavor this codex adds now, I’ll see how I feel going against them though!

Small side question: your warlord needs to be on the table to refund spent cp’s I believe, so you couldn’t refund ones spent on relics and such as they’re before the game, right?

Assuming you’re talking about Grand Strategist from the IG codex?

This has not been addressed in an FAQ, but that is because it’s addressed in the codex. You need to be on the table for Grand Strategist.

What we should really do is put together a list of which knights want to be which houses. I’m firmly of the belief that the relics and stratagems are far superior to any house traditions, so I absolutely plan on running a mixed house detachment.

I am confused. Why are there two IK tactica threads? And codex is out, so we should all go over to the other thread?

Are there two? The other I thought was a rumors thread

Now that the codex is out, the rumors thread should move here to the tactica thread.

In any case, here are my impressions:

Dominus Knights suck. They cost an awful lot, are less durable than Questoris Knights because there's no way anyone can afford 3 CP Rotate Ion Shields every turn, and only one of them has access to the tools to fulfill its role (the Castellan).

The best lone Knight you can run now is a Raven Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear. You can take two Helverins for support. I think they are mediocre, but they do give your Warden that delicious move, advance, shoot, charge turn one--rerolling 1s the entire time.

Perceptor sucks. The Las-Impulsor is a jack of all trades weapon that essentially halves the range of better guns. Paradoxically, it pretty much forces you to take Helverins, which are a hyper-specialized T6 vehicle killer.

Mechanicus Knights have so many advantages, it's not even a fair comparison. Best Houses (Taranis and Raven), best stratagem (Machine Spirit Resurgent), access to Canticles (Death Grip with Invocation of Machine Might instant kills a ton of stuff), and they get the Castellan.

Imperialis Knights suck unless you run a Hawkshroud Lance. Furthermore, they can only take Valiant. The only bright side is outflanking Gallants, but there are much, much better deep strike options out there.

Freeblades are a big missed opportunity. I don't think the qualities are appealing enough or the burdens harsh enough to ever make someone not want to pick.

Finally, the Auxiliary and Lance rules are not fluffy and unduly punishing, especially to the Imperialis side, which relies on having a tradition to make up for their lack of Machine Spirit Resurgent.

In summary, the codex creates some really strong builds and adds much needed value to Knights, but it also intentionally created some weird de-synergy and inequality.

Considering that the Castellan is previewed in Terryn colours, I’m going to say that the dominus being admech/Imperialis locked is wrong

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering that the Castellan is previewed in Terryn colours, I’m going to say that the dominus being admech/Imperialis locked is wrong

I don't think he literally means that Imperialis can't use Castellans, but more that if you want to be competitive a Castellan should always be Mechanicus aligned for Cawl's Wrath as it turns a bad gun into a decent/good one.

But as he pointed out, Dominus aren’t very competitive to begin with.

Crusaders, Wardens, Gallants and allied Helverins seem the way to go this book. With the fist and Gatling gun being the relics of choice.

Caederes wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering that the Castellan is previewed in Terryn colours, I’m going to say that the dominus being admech/Imperialis locked is wrong

I don't think he literally means that Imperialis can't use Castellans, but more that if you want to be competitive a Castellan should always be Mechanicus aligned for Cawl's Wrath as it turns a bad gun into a decent/good one.

This. The thing is a waste of 600+ points without Cawl's Wrath. The Valiant is in a similar situation.

Suzuteo wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering that the Castellan is previewed in Terryn colours, I’m going to say that the dominus being admech/Imperialis locked is wrong

I don't think he literally means that Imperialis can't use Castellans, but more that if you want to be competitive a Castellan should always be Mechanicus aligned for Cawl's Wrath as it turns a bad gun into a decent/good one.

This. The thing is a waste of 600+ points without Cawl's Wrath. The Valiant is in a similar situation.

For the Valiant it is to a much less significant degree. It kills 4ish MEQs instead of 6ish MEQs.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering that the Castellan is previewed in Terryn colours, I’m going to say that the dominus being admech/Imperialis locked is wrong

I don't think he literally means that Imperialis can't use Castellans, but more that if you want to be competitive a Castellan should always be Mechanicus aligned for Cawl's Wrath as it turns a bad gun into a decent/good one.

This. The thing is a waste of 600+ points without Cawl's Wrath. The Valiant is in a similar situation.

For the Valiant it is to a much less significant degree. It kills 4ish MEQs instead of 6ish MEQs.

True. But the Valiant, as cool as it looks, isn't well-equipped to do the role it is supposed to fulfill. 12" anti-MC and 18" anti-horde shooting at 3+ (but usually 4+ or 5+ because he never gets MSR) and only 10" move is awful. At least the Castellan has scary guns with good range. But Dominus in general is a white elephant. Expensive as hell, requires CP we don't have, poor in melee, and neither durable nor effective at removing threats from the board.

Raven Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear all the way. Maybe with two Helverins; I still have yet to decide if the free Advance move is worth it or not.

I feel that results might not bear out this lack of faith in the Valiant.

I think you can thunder it up the middle of the board flaming stuff and sniping a character a turn, charging anything within range just to get the additional movement distance, then when it dies use the stratagem to make it 50% likely to detonate and do d6 mortals to all units in 3d6" range. (edit this is not entirely accurate... assuming no rerolls I think it is 75% chance to blow up but only 25% chance to blow 3d6)

It's a 600 point suicide unit and I want one.

At the absolute worst it is a total zone denial tool as your opponent will be spending a considerable amount of energy trying to stay more than 20"-28" away from it so they won't get harpooned and cremated next turn.

I don’t think you can competitively run a Castellan and a Valiant. I’ve been trying but I’m not at all certain that you can take different houses in the same detachment (try as I might)

That being said, I think you go Raven for all of those re-rolls. I think I can fit two min batallions and 3 knights, even if one is a Castellan

So let me get this straight, if say I take an IK SHD that has a Questoris Knight and 2 Armigers and an Ad Mech Battalion as my army but my warlord is an Ad Mech character, can I spend 2 CP on Exalted Court and Heirlooms to give the Knight in my SHD a WL trait and relic even though my warlord is from a different faction?

 Silentz wrote:


It's a 600 point suicide unit and I want one.

This tech priest gets it

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
So let me get this straight, if say I take an IK SHD that has a Questoris Knight and 2 Armigers and an Ad Mech Battalion as my army but my warlord is an Ad Mech character, can I spend 2 CP on Exalted Court and Heirlooms to give the Knight in my SHD a WL trait and relic even though my warlord is from a different faction?

Yes.

Thats my plan as I'm fairly sure that CP regeneration is going to be a big boost to my knight army.

Right now I'm thinking 3 of the mid size knights, exact configuration to be decieded once I have a codex

But what is everyone else thoughts on Cannis Rex?
I have an army list in mind thats probably not optimised but I'm try to do something a little less oh another IG CP farm plus actual army.

I just sent this letter to 40kFAQ@gwplc.com

Hope this finds you well.

I'm writing regarding the Lance Formation from the new knights codex.

From the Imperial Knight Codex:

"Knight Lances

If your army is battle-forged, select one model in each Imperial Knight Super-Heavy Detachment in your army. That model gains the Character keyword. However, the command benefit of each Imperial Knight Super Heavy detachment is changed to none, unless it contains any combination of at least three Questorus Class, and/or Dominus Class unit"

From the big FAQ:

“When creating a Battle-forged army, the Battalion and Brigade Detachments are seen as not offering enough command points for the number of units you must include. As a result, we will increase the Battalion Detachment’s Command Benefits to +5 Command Points and the Brigade Detachment’s to +12 Command Points. These changes appear in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook errata, but are shown below for convenience."

From the blog post about the big FAQ:

“The rules team have done a great job of giving armies access to a whole host of characterful Stratagems to play with. The only issue was, Command Points were often in short supply, especially for ‘elite’ style armies. So, to reward players who build their lists using the Battalion and Brigade Detachments, we’re offering even more Command Points to these Troop-heavy forces."

The above change was done to help elite armies who couldn't get enough command points, compared to armies that can spam cheap battalions and brigades to get more command points, without fielding the now notorious Guard CP Battery (180 points guard battalion with, with CP regenerating warlord trait and relic).

So the reason for this email is to ask, why the imperial Knight Codex actively discourages running pure knights as an army?

In a 2000 point game my army can at most have 6CP if I run only imperial Knights. Yet the rules encourage me to run the notorious Astra Militarum CP battery, as for 180 points I can get an extra 5CP (bringing me up to 11CP) and the ability to regenerate CP. In addition, it seems like the intention is to penalize players that take the new Armiger models, as there are literally no benefits for taking them when a similarly priced Guard Battery grants CP, ObSec, and CP regeneration.

It seems that there was a lack of communication between the introduction of Armigers in Forgebane, where we were told that Armigers will be a great source of cheap CP, and printing of the codex where Armigers deny CP from IK detachments. It is understandable that the increased CP cited in the Big FAQ occurred after the IK codex was already printed, however, with an official correction or explanation, I see no reason to purchase models I cannot use.

In addition, with official Grand Tournament point values dropping to 1750, the handicap given to IK armies does not encourage anyone to purchase the new models, due to the Dominus class being too expensive points wise, and the Armigers being useless for CP.

I for one will be encouraging players in my area to delay purchasing any of the new models until this issue is resolved favorably.

Thank you, and have a good day,

And yes, I encourage everyone like minded to vote with their wallets.

SJ

Done, just sent them an email. Can send it to anyone who wants a laugh

Was going to get a castellan and two boxes of armigers until i saw armigers wont help with cp. :/

I'm still getting two boxes of Warglaives. Even without CP, two Guard Battalions allows me to do what I want to do, but I've sent my own angry email and will be commenting on all of their FB posts. Lol

Well if emails works change likely come before warglaives are released outside forgebane

Caederes wrote:
I don't think there's anything stopping you from giving one extra relic to your Lance and the other extra relic to your Auxiliary, ditto with the extra Warlord/character stratagem. It's certainly what I plan on doing if I go for a variation of Option 1) as listed above.

Just worked out that you can legally field Guilliman (Auxiliary), a minimum Guard battalion, and 4 Gallants (Knight Lance) in 2000 points. I wouldn't do it, but good lord that would be terrifying For CP, you get 3 (Guilliman Warlord) + 3 (Knight Lance) + 3 (Battle-Forged) + 5 (Battalion) = 14CP. You'll always spend at least 2CP on the Guard and Knight extra relics (Kurov's + Paragon Gauntlet), maybe 5CP if you want one of the other nice Knight relics a Gallant can use (i.e. Helm for +1 Attack, 2+ save, 5++ in combat, etc), then 3CP for the extra Warlords (4++ on one and Landstrider on the other seem like the best bets). Hopefully you refund a lot of those, then spam Full Tilt and Terryn's fight twice stratagem with Guilliman giving any nearby Knights re-roll 1s to-hit Also, because the Lance automatically makes one of the Knights a character and you can split the extra relic and warlord stratagems among the other three should you wish, you can have all 4 Gallants and Guilliman together capable of massed Heroic Interventions Just watch out for Flyers!

That sounds crazy fun.

Rule of 3 prevents 4 gallants, no?

 Crazyterran wrote:
Rule of 3 prevents 4 gallants, no?

Correct.

Ok since we're reviewing units, here are my thoughts so far.

The Imperialis/Mechanicus split is really important. Some of the stratagems are limited to one or the other - notably the "fight when you die" one is imperialis-only.

Don't take a Valiant. They force you to take imperialis. Actually it wants to be house Raven, with landstrider so it can get up close fast and start burning things. It can't then have the relic flamer, but I think it's a worthwhile trade-off to let you fire at all in turn 1.

That said, the harpoon is kind of a joke weapon, so the flamer has a lot of work to do to catch up. I really can't see a compelling reason to take this guy. Any model that routinely fails to fire on turn 1 is kind of a non-starter in my book.

I think a castellan with Cawl's wrath is probably worth its points. Specifically, a house Taranis (luckily the house my existing 4 knights are painted as!) knight with the 4++ warlord trait and Cawl's Wrath looks like a pretty solid option.

I actually think the preceptor looks like a solid all-rounder. If you check the maths on his gun it actually performs well against pretty much anything. It's obviously only worth taking him if you've got Armigers, but if you do then he'll be a perfectly adequate knight as well as buffing them. Not a superstar, but not a liability, basically.

This matters because the major problem knights seem to have is hordes. A decent way to deal with them might well be to send in a few armigers with a preceptor. I quite like armigers now. They've come down to a very respectable price point and can attack any target you want.

The paladin looks overcosted now. In fact the crusader does too, with a battlecannon. A battlecannon is better than a thermal cannon, but I don't think it's 28 points better. For the price you could have a carapace gun and points to spare. I'm pretty sure that's always a better option. Thermal cannon and ironstorm missile pod > battlecannon, and costs less. In reality, the decision might come down to a few points here or there. If you can afford it and the missile pod, the battlecannon is still the better of the two options.

The avenger is great, so the crusader remains by far the best option for most knights. I really wish they'd brought in a sweep attack option for chainswords and fists, to give us a reason to take them. Stomps are probably too good really.

It's definitely a strength that you have an army without many drops. I'd want to keep it that way. As such I think I'm abandoning my plan of using an admech detachment as allies. The guys you get just seem terrible. Instead I'm looking at a battalion of militarum tempestus, with a taurox prime or two. I'll be able to set up my characters in that along with a squad of 5 guys, and the others can deep strike in where needed. That also gives me a useful couple of null deployments at the start before I have to start dropping 400+ point models on the board. Here's what that list might look like at 1750:

Taranis Knight Lance

Castellan 604
2 Turrets
2 Missiles
4++ warlord trait
Cawl's Wrath

Warden 427
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Reaper Chainsword
Heavy Stubber
Stormspear Rocket Pod

Gallant 354
Reaper Chainsword
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Heavy Stubber
Landstrider

Militarum Tempestus Battalion

Tempestor Prime 45
Tempestor Command Rod
Chainsword

Primaris Psyker 46
Force Stave

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
Hot Shot Lasguns/pistol

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
Hot Shot Lasguns/pistol

5 Militarum Tempestus Scions 50
Hot Shot Lasguns/pistol

Taurox Prime 124
Taurox gatling cannon
Two Autocannons

Kind of oddly, it actually ends up working for the militarum tempestus regiment. Not a huge bonus, but it should generate an occasional extra shot now and then.

So regarding Knights Gallant. Should they get the Meltagun instead of the Heavy Stubber? And what about Carapace Weapons? It seems like they might actually benefit from having either a Stormspear or Ironstorm missile launcher for laying down some ranged shots while they rush up the field.

I'd probably take the Meltagun and that's it. You'll probably be using the advance and charge strat most of the time.

If you're House Raven, then a carapace weapon is a good idea if you can afford it since they can still advance and fire it with no penalty. A Meltagun complements it nicely since it wants to be up close and personal and the Heavy Stubber probably won't make a huge difference if whatever you want to charge is being screened anyway.

 Dynas wrote:

Caederes wrote:
I don't think there's anything stopping you from giving one extra relic to your Lance and the other extra relic to your Auxiliary, ditto with the extra Warlord/character stratagem. It's certainly what I plan on doing if I go for a variation of Option 1) as listed above.

Just worked out that you can legally field Guilliman (Auxiliary), a minimum Guard battalion, and 4 Gallants (Knight Lance) in 2000 points. I wouldn't do it, but good lord that would be terrifying For CP, you get 3 (Guilliman Warlord) + 3 (Knight Lance) + 3 (Battle-Forged) + 5 (Battalion) = 14CP. You'll always spend at least 2CP on the Guard and Knight extra relics (Kurov's + Paragon Gauntlet), maybe 5CP if you want one of the other nice Knight relics a Gallant can use (i.e. Helm for +1 Attack, 2+ save, 5++ in combat, etc), then 3CP for the extra Warlords (4++ on one and Landstrider on the other seem like the best bets). Hopefully you refund a lot of those, then spam Full Tilt and Terryn's fight twice stratagem with Guilliman giving any nearby Knights re-roll 1s to-hit Also, because the Lance automatically makes one of the Knights a character and you can split the extra relic and warlord stratagems among the other three should you wish, you can have all 4 Gallants and Guilliman together capable of massed Heroic Interventions Just watch out for Flyers!

That sounds crazy fun.

I believe a FAQ said you can't Regen on before the battle strats like relics. Otherwise looks good!

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
If you're House Raven, then a carapace weapon is a good idea if you can afford it since they can still advance and fire it with no penalty. A Meltagun complements it nicely since it wants to be up close and personal and the Heavy Stubber probably won't make a huge difference if whatever you want to charge is being screened anyway.

I am going House Mortan. So I definitely want up close and personal. I actually thought about the Ironstorm for helping with screens.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Rule of 3 prevents 4 gallants, no?

Correct.

Yeah unfortunately I've not played too much 40K since the Big FAQ so that rule keeps creeping up on me to destroy my crazy ideas
You could still do a similar list with 3 Knights + Guilliman + Guard, just either upgrade (i.e. Stormspears) the Knights (maybe change into more expensive variants at the cost of weaker melee?) or invest more into the Guard (Pask, Mortar teams, etc) with the ~360 points you'll have spare. Conceptually a Knight torpedo bodyguard for Guilliman sounds almost awesome enough to justify owning 3 of the same Knight variant.

As far as weapons on the Gallant are concerned, it really depends on what you are doing. House Raven is the best choice if you want to give them some decent weaponry, namely the Stormspear rocket pods on top (overall the best carapace weapon). If you're not bothering with carapace weapons, the Gallants probably want to be Terryn for fight-twice (while expensive in a CP starved army, it's different from other factions' fight twice stratagems by working after a Knight has fought rather than at the end of the phase, can be a huge difference maker) and extra D6 discard the lowest for advance and charge rolls, though if that compromises the other Knights/relics in your list then don't bother (most Knights don't want to be Terryn) and look for something more universal. Landstrider and Full Tilt are really all the Gallants need to make it in quickly.

EDIT: Mortan? Hmm. See if the points saved on the meltagun are worth spending elsewhere in your list; if not, that meltagun can do some good work. I think the Stormspear maths out to be the best carapace weapon in almost any situation, but if you don't necessarily plan on shooting it every turn or having the Gallant survive too long, saving points on the Ironstorm probably isn't a bad idea.

I think the Strategem where you treat a wounded Knight at the non degraded stat line is gold. 1 Cp ( i forget the name) Probably use that one every turn. most opponents will focus fire a single knight before moving on to the next (as they should) thus you will basically always be having all your knights at full functionality. That is vital for BS/WS stats.

Guilliman is annoyingly good. The only thing better though is probably another knight.

Stratagems are good, but I think you're better off with more killing power most of the time.

Here's a really straightforward 2k list. Looks pretty scary to me. 4 knights with lots of big guns.

Castellan 604
2 Turrets
2 Missiles
4++ warlord trait
Cawl's Wrath

Crusader 485
Rapid-fire Battlecannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
2 Heavy Stubbers

Crusader 457
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber

Warden 452
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Reaper Chainsword
Stormspear Rocket Pod

I guess you could use the exalted court stratagem, though I'm not sure what else you need really so I think maybe you'd just look after your 6 precious CPs. Then hang back and blaze away.

Incidentally, house Krast seem utterly brutal. You have rerolls to hit if you charge, are charged or heroically intervene (so always, basically). You've got a relic that makes all your weapons do 1 more damage to anything with 10+ wounds and a warlord trait that makes you always reroll 1s to hit.

They could make a list with 2 Castellans in. Give one Cawl's wrath and 4++. The other gets the Krast relic and trait. List could look like this:

Krast Knight Lance

Castellan 593
Turret
4 Missiles
4++ warlord trait
Cawl's Wrath

Castellan 593
Turret
4 Missiles
Krast Trait
Krast Relic

Crusader 457
Thermal Cannon
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber

Gallant 354
Reaper Chainsword
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Heavy Stubber

Personally, I'm planning to take a Castellan with full Siegebreakers, a Custodes Outrider of 3 bike squads and one Captain (adding an extra for 11 total) with the -1 to be Hit flag and then a minimum AM CP battalion.

Castellan is 4++ with Cawl's Wrath. So all his anti-vehicle with 11 Hurricane Bolters for chaff (66/132 shots!) And a manageable 9 CP.

 Silentz wrote:
I feel that results might not bear out this lack of faith in the Valiant.

I think you can thunder it up the middle of the board flaming stuff and sniping a character a turn, charging anything within range just to get the additional movement distance, then when it dies use the stratagem to make it 50% likely to detonate and do d6 mortals to all units in 3d6" range. (edit this is not entirely accurate... assuming no rerolls I think it is 75% chance to blow up but only 25% chance to blow 3d6)

It's a 600 point suicide unit and I want one.

At the absolute worst it is a total zone denial tool as your opponent will be spending a considerable amount of energy trying to stay more than 20"-28" away from it so they won't get harpooned and cremated next turn.

The thing about a Knight is that you have to eliminate threats to it to allow it to make back it's points. I doubt any Knight is going to kill more than 400 points worth of units without massive support. That's ultimately why I don't think Knights will be successful alone except against unprepared armies. There is also an efficiency problem because we can only use Full Tilt and Ion Shield once per phase. Fortunately, depending on the wording, Raven stratagem can be spammed because it affects multiple phases throughout the turn. Definitely use once during the Psychic phase and again in Movement and possibly again in Shooting.

That being said, the huge advantage of Mechanicum Knights means that we almost guaranteedly will be partnered with AdMech. Stygies Dragoons and Electro-Priests are probably our best bet for alpha striking. Kastelan Robots handle hordes.

Suzuteo wrote:
Now that the codex is out, the rumors thread should move here to the tactica thread.

In any case, here are my impressions:

Dominus Knights suck. They cost an awful lot, are less durable than Questoris Knights because there's no way anyone can afford 3 CP Rotate Ion Shields every turn, and only one of them has access to the tools to fulfill its role (the Castellan).

The best lone Knight you can run now is a Raven Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear. You can take two Helverins for support. I think they are mediocre, but they do give your Warden that delicious move, advance, shoot, charge turn one--rerolling 1s the entire time.

Perceptor sucks. The Las-Impulsor is a jack of all trades weapon that essentially halves the range of better guns. Paradoxically, it pretty much forces you to take Helverins, which are a hyper-specialized T6 vehicle killer.

Mechanicus Knights have so many advantages, it's not even a fair comparison. Best Houses (Taranis and Raven), best stratagem (Machine Spirit Resurgent), access to Canticles (Death Grip with Invocation of Machine Might instant kills a ton of stuff), and they get the Castellan.

Imperialis Knights suck unless you run a Hawkshroud Lance. Furthermore, they can only take Valiant. The only bright side is outflanking Gallants, but there are much, much better deep strike options out there.

Freeblades are a big missed opportunity. I don't think the qualities are appealing enough or the burdens harsh enough to ever make someone not want to pick.

Finally, the Auxiliary and Lance rules are not fluffy and unduly punishing, especially to the Imperialis side, which relies on having a tradition to make up for their lack of Machine Spirit Resurgent.

In summary, the codex creates some really strong builds and adds much needed value to Knights, but it also intentionally created some weird de-synergy and inequality.

I would have to respectfully disagree. For maybe 100 points more, Dominus class is far more shooty than any of the regular knights. The fire power output is far higher. Not to mention the option to use that siegebreaker missile to snipe an important character is pricelss. So, If you want efficiency in fire output, Dominus outperforms regular knights by shots and damage per point. The only issue would be that if you have enough fire power to destroy a Dominus in one turn, then its more points lost compared to losing a regular knight to shooting on turn 1. However, nowadays, with the strategem on ion shields to give +1 save, and the warlord trait of 4++, its not so easy to destroy a knight, much less a Dominus class in one turn of shooting. I mean, we are talking about a 28W, T8, 4++ (upgradable to 3++).

Suzeteo, Rotate Ion Shields is only 1 CP.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Suzeteo, Rotate Ion Shields is only 1 CP.

Dominuses have to pay 3cp to rotate their ion shields

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Suzeteo, Rotate Ion Shields is only 1 CP.

Dominuses have to pay 3cp to rotate their ion shields

Seriously?! What the hell for?

Yeah. 1/2 I could maybe understand but the 1/3 is vicious.

I wanted to chime in and sing the praises of one strat I haven't seen mentioned much yet- the Ravens' "Order of Companions"

For those who have not seen, for 2 CP it lets you re-roll 1's for the number of shots, to hit, to wound, and the number of wounds when variable. On a beast like the Castellan, this has an enormous impact, increasing the long-range damage efficiency by up to 68%, as shown below. A big part of the reason is how many times it comes into play when looking at the Castellan's weapons, with the two big ones both having variable shots. For reference, re-rolling 1s on a D6 gives you an average of 3.92 while a D3 gives 2.3333.

Suzuteo wrote:

The thing about a Knight is that you have to eliminate threats to it to allow it to make back it's points. I doubt any Knight is going to kill more than 400 points worth of units without massive support. That's ultimately why I don't think Knights will be successful alone except against unprepared armies. There is also an efficiency problem because we can only use Full Tilt and Ion Shield once per phase. Fortunately, depending on the wording, Raven stratagem can be spammed because it affects multiple phases throughout the turn. Definitely use once during the Psychic phase and again in Movement and possibly again in Shooting.

That being said, the huge advantage of Mechanicum Knights means that we almost guaranteedly will be partnered with AdMech. Stygies Dragoons and Electro-Priests are probably our best bet for alpha striking. Kastelan Robots handle hordes.

Well on target rich enviroment castellan will make points back with volcano cannon vs leman russ and it\s kind in 4 turns. Then shoulder guns, melta guns, carapace weapons and plasma weapon. Plus making points back doesn't mean just killing. Soaking up firepower and area control also are important.

I almost wonder if the Blessed by Sancristans would be a good option for the Valiant instead of the relic flamer. Rerolls to wound is great, but on an average of 11 hits, you are going to do two-ish mortal wounds.

By the way, Heirlooms of the Household makes the recipient model also gain the character keyword. You don't need to use Exalted Court to make them a character first.

Wow. That's big. So you need to decide is 1/3 CP's worth to give warlord trait as well as relic. IF you want relic AND warlord trait for 3 knights that's whopping 6 CP. You could save 2 by settling for 1 extra warlord trait only.

tneva82 wrote:
Wow. That's big. So you need to decide is 1/3 CP's worth to give warlord trait as well as relic. IF you want relic AND warlord trait for 3 knights that's whopping 6 CP. You could save 2 by settling for 1 extra warlord trait only.

I am more likely to do an extra relic and an extra Warlord Trait. If I take Cunning Commander for one of those traits, it refunds itself. I am more apt to take the relics though.

Knights are so CP hungry with hard way to get them especially if they want more than 3 knights I might skimp on 3rd warlord trait. We'll see. I have to look what others there are besides 4++ that really appeal to me.

The rules for Armigers not counting towards CP makes this article kind of misleading.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/12/unit-focus-armiger-warglaivesgw-homepage-post-4/

While Armigers may be “small” by the standard of Imperial Knights, they’re still comparable in power to the mightiest war machines used by other armies, and thus, you’ll find them in the Lord of War slot. Unlike other Lords of War, you’ll be able to fit up to three Armigers in a single slot, making filling out a Super-heavy Detachment – and netting three Command Points – easy! We’d recommend pairing two with a fully fledged Imperial Knight for a balanced and powerful collection of units.

tneva82 wrote:
Knights are so CP hungry with hard way to get them especially if they want more than 3 knights I might skimp on 3rd warlord trait. We'll see. I have to look what others there are besides 4++ that really appeal to me.

1d4chan has all of their information updated in their tactics section now (they don't have the relics for the Houses in yet). I am still thinking going with House Mortan. I wish their Warlord Trait made more sense for them.

I'm currently starting a Gallant build to use alongside my Vostroyan Firstborn army as a Freeblade. Skipping the carapace weapon, as I want to save points where I can but I am going to splurge slightly and spend an extra 13 points on the chest mounted Meltagun as I want to be able to advance with my knight and still shoot (Assault weapon) and then use the 2CP stratagem to allow for a charge even if you advanced in the movement phase.

Am I correct in that you can make a lone knight in your force your warlord (Freeblade specifically)? If so, the 4++ Invunerable save (Ion Bulwark) WL trait or the +1 attack (Knight Seneschal) WL trait seem to be the ones to go with, depending on what kind of opponent you're facing. Up against Orks or a swarm army? Go with the extra attack WL trait. Up against a shooty force? Roll with the 4++ WL trait.

Freeblade Qualities and burdens I would chose would be Indomitable for the quality (+1 Wound and Leadership) and Driven to Slaughter (No fallback, change BS to BS:6+) and Obsessed with Vengeance (Can only target and charge the closest enemy unit). The knight has only 1 gun on it and will be charging anything it can every turn to try and do as much damage as possible before it dies, so even if I do fail the leadership test (At LD:10) it will rarely affect how I'm generally using the Knight.

Lastly, the Paragon Gauntlet seems to be the best option for the Gallant. It allows you to hit without the -1 penalty and use the Death Grip Stratagem so you hit on a 2+ with that single attack

I'm excited to get my knight built and try it out. At 367 points, I feel like it'll do well making back a fair portion of its points most games.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Anyone considered going heavy Amigers instead of heavy knights? I know Amigers in a supreme command detachment don't get the cp. But the fire power of a Helverin is no joke. Its the equivalent of two predator tank autocannons for just 174 points.

6 Helverins cost 1,044 points and packs the equivalent of 12 predator tank autocannons. That's 24d3 shots.with each shot doing 3 damage. @_@

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Am I correct in that you can make a lone knight in your force your warlord (Freeblade specifically)? If so, the 4++ Invunerable save (Ion Bulwark) WL trait or the +1 attack (Knight Seneschal) WL trait seem to be the ones to go with, depending on what kind of opponent you're facing. Up against Orks or a swarm army? Go with the extra attack WL trait. Up against a shooty force? Roll with the 4++ WL trait.

Freeblades don't seem to be characters on their own and aux detachment gets no characters so to do that you need to spend CP's to make freeblade character with WL trait. Albeit that means you have the normal warlord to assign still.

tneva82 wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Am I correct in that you can make a lone knight in your force your warlord (Freeblade specifically)? If so, the 4++ Invunerable save (Ion Bulwark) WL trait or the +1 attack (Knight Seneschal) WL trait seem to be the ones to go with, depending on what kind of opponent you're facing. Up against Orks or a swarm army? Go with the extra attack WL trait. Up against a shooty force? Roll with the 4++ WL trait.

Freeblades don't seem to be characters on their own and aux detachment gets no characters so to do that you need to spend CP's to make freeblade character with WL trait. Albeit that means you have the normal warlord to assign still.

I was under the impression that a freeblade if fielded as a lone LoW (I intend to use mine as part of a Supreme Command Detachment) you could make it your warlord, which would confer character to the Knight, and then open up the knight relic list. Or did I misunderstand how freeblade knights work in conjunction with a larger Imperial force (Guard in my case)?

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

What HQ you were planning to field with knight? With FAQ Imperium keyword is out now. What faction keyword knight share with some HQ models you plan apart from Imperium?

Haven't heard that freeblades would be automatically characters. If they are then different.

Warlord btw doesn't give automatically character. You can make any model(even lowly ripper swarm) your warlord but then unless it has character no warlord trait.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I would have to respectfully disagree. For maybe 100 points more, Dominus class is far more shooty than any of the regular knights. The fire power output is far higher. Not to mention the option to use that siegebreaker missile to snipe an important character is pricelss. So, If you want efficiency in fire output, Dominus outperforms regular knights by shots and damage per point. The only issue would be that if you have enough fire power to destroy a Dominus in one turn, then its more points lost compared to losing a regular knight to shooting on turn 1. However, nowadays, with the strategem on ion shields to give +1 save, and the warlord trait of 4++, its not so easy to destroy a knight, much less a Dominus class in one turn of shooting. I mean, we are talking about a 28W, T8, 4++ (upgradable to 3++).

Your point only makes sense if you're set on running Knights. But there are a ton of more efficient shooting vehicles that you take for 600 points. (Shadowswords are an easy example.) Really, you have to get your Knights into CC to make their points back. This was the case before the codex, and even more so after the codex, since the best improvements are going toward Questoris Knights with a Thunderstrike Gauntlet.

Shieldbreaker Missiles look better on paper than in practice. But they are one shot per turn, one use per battle, cost 2CP, and might not even hit.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Suzeteo, Rotate Ion Shields is only 1 CP.

Dominuses have to pay 3cp to rotate their ion shields

Seriously?! What the hell for?

Yeah. You must have missed that. But the math easily bears out that Questoris Knights are much more durable than Dominus Knights. For example, they take 30% more lascannon shots.

Yeah shadowsword wrecks many targets. Of course castellan vs shadowsword duel is likely to end up in castellan win even if shadowsword gets to shoot first. 3d3=6 shots, 3 hits, let's say 3 wounds. 3++ so 1 through, 2d6 damage=7. Result firepower about halves damage with volcano lance plus plasma + shoulder+carapace. Did shadowsword have titanic keyword btw? If yes even better. No way shadowsword can take that firepower long enough to take out target. Even 2nd turn won't be enough.

What questor btw wrecks leman russ without even using even half the guns it has? As it is with russes volcano lance alone makes up points in 4 turns. Add in no CP battery for enemy IG after turn 1.

Same toughnesd same saves fewer W how are they more durable.

Sure its more pricey to protect them but if you doiuble brigade you can do it for a couple of turns if thats your priority

tneva82 wrote:
What HQ you were planning to field with knight? With FAQ Imperium keyword is out now. What faction keyword knight share with some HQ models you plan apart from Imperium?

Haven't heard that freeblades would be automatically characters. If they are then different.

Warlord btw doesn't give automatically character. You can make any model(even lowly ripper swarm) your warlord but then unless it has character no warlord trait.

Ah, I had forgotten the removal of Imperium only as the keyword for a battleforged detachment. I almost always run mono codex (I do make the occasional Guard + Blood Angels lists but they're both in their own detachments). I had planned on running a pair of Company Commanders alongside a Lord Commissar in the Supreme Command with a Command squad as the elite and the Freeblade as my LoW in the detachment, then allying in a Battalion detachment of Guard with Tank Commanders, lots of infantry squads, a Valkyrie, a couple of armored sentinels, and a couple of artillery tanks. Just a blend of armor and infantry to help back the knight up at range.

I can just run the Battalion with a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment. I'll get fewer orders perhas, but I can live with that.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah shadowsword wrecks many targets. Of course castellan vs shadowsword duel is likely to end up in castellan win even if shadowsword gets to shoot first. 3d3=6 shots, 3 hits, let's say 3 wounds. 3++ so 1 through, 2d6 damage=7. Result firepower about halves damage with volcano lance plus plasma + shoulder+carapace. Did shadowsword have titanic keyword btw? If yes even better. No way shadowsword can take that firepower long enough to take out target. Even 2nd turn won't be enough.

What questor btw wrecks leman russ without even using even half the guns it has? As it is with russes volcano lance alone makes up points in 4 turns. Add in no CP battery for enemy IG after turn 1.

Except a Shadowsword comes in the 400 points range, doesn't eat CP like a fat kid at Hometown Buffet, and can get the Catachan or Militarum Tempestus Regimental Doctrine? Why wouldn't you take the option that requires less investment and has fewer dependencies and greater efficiency?

Comparing a Castellan to a Shadowsword is a bit unfair. The former does cost 50% more than the Shadowsword and is specialized to kill something like the Shadowsword. (I mentioned the Shadowsword because it's a better choice than the Castellan in almost every situation.)

Most of the Questoris Knights can close into CC with a Leman Russ, which effectively kills it even if it does not actually do so that turn.

U02dah4 wrote:
Same toughnesd same saves fewer W how are they more durable.

Sure its more pricey to protect them but if you doiuble brigade you can do it for a couple of turns if thats your priority

They have a 3++ invulnerable save, whereas the Dominus is stuck with 4++ unless you spend 3 CP, which is exorbitant. You will quickly run out of CP to use.

Your 3 CP is not going to be spent giving your Dominus a better invulnerable save. It is going to be spent doing two or three other, more impactful things with your other Knights. (Taking a Dominus creates a risk mitigation and opportunity cost nightmare.)

Even 600 pts shadowswords won't kill dominus. And dominus isn't particularly shv specialist.

As fmr questor vs russ...that requires h2h weapon rather than gun and will happen t3 earliest short of super luck on advance and charge rolls. Russ begins game like 36" away and moves away. Have fun chasing one. Plus you need to clear chaff to get past first and exposes knights on the rote

And if enemy points volcano cannon at it 3cp(2 ig bat plus regen) is cheap price

Suzuteo wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I would have to respectfully disagree. For maybe 100 points more, Dominus class is far more shooty than any of the regular knights. The fire power output is far higher. Not to mention the option to use that siegebreaker missile to snipe an important character is pricelss. So, If you want efficiency in fire output, Dominus outperforms regular knights by shots and damage per point. The only issue would be that if you have enough fire power to destroy a Dominus in one turn, then its more points lost compared to losing a regular knight to shooting on turn 1. However, nowadays, with the strategem on ion shields to give +1 save, and the warlord trait of 4++, its not so easy to destroy a knight, much less a Dominus class in one turn of shooting. I mean, we are talking about a 28W, T8, 4++ (upgradable to 3++).

Your point only makes sense if you're set on running Knights. But there are a ton of more efficient shooting vehicles that you take for 600 points. (Shadowswords are an easy example.) Really, you have to get your Knights into CC to make their points back. This was the case before the codex, and even more so after the codex, since the best improvements are going toward Questoris Knights with a Thunderstrike Gauntlet.

Shieldbreaker Missiles look better on paper than in practice. But they are one shot per turn, one use per battle, cost 2CP, and might not even hit.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Suzeteo, Rotate Ion Shields is only 1 CP.

Dominuses have to pay 3cp to rotate their ion shields

Seriously?! What the hell for?

Yeah. You must have missed that. But the math easily bears out that Questoris Knights are much more durable than Dominus Knights. For example, they take 30% more lascannon shots.

Knights are cool, knights are fun, and this is a knight tactica thread. Why wouldn't I want to discuss running knights... lol They might not be the most efficient shooting unit in the entire 40k universe, but they don't have to be. Everything has its own individual strengths. If everyone was only going strictly for shootiest unit, then everyone would only play one single army... That's not the case right?

They just need to good enough. And I think that with all the buffs IK has received, they are "good enough" now. I just watched another battle report last night. a 4 knight army went up against a Ynnari force (2000 pts both) with 3 squads of dark reapers and altoic goodness and illanari characters and psykers. The knight force didn't even run any Dominus units, but it still won in the end. It tabled the Ynnari force.

You can only use the strategem to buff ion saves on one knight so if your buffing your questoris your not buffing your dominous. Your also not buffing it indefinitely if you run a knight at 3++ its still going to take damage and eventually its not worth it

It also means that only 1 questoris is a 3++ the rest are 5++ and guess who is getting shot first

Yes it is more costly to buff the dominous but you can so its disingenuous to say its less tough its just tactically poor to buff its invul so why not give it the 2+ armour save and the ++'s to another knight

As a solo knight though 2+ 4++ 6+++ 28W is pretty tough


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Anyone considered going heavy Amigers instead of heavy knights? I know Amigers in a supreme command detachment don't get the cp. But the fire power of a Helverin is no joke. Its the equivalent of two predator tank autocannons for just 174 points.

6 Helverins cost 1,044 points and packs the equivalent of 12 predator tank autocannons. That's 24d3 shots.with each shot doing 3 damage. @_@

With the armigers I don't think its the case of or but of and - you get more value out of a warlord trait and relic on a galant than an armager but when I look at what id build armigers are definitely a great choice for non characters or freeblades
1 crusader
1 warden
1 gallant
1 armager freeblade
1 armager

A list of 9 armagers and 2 helvarins would be cool but dont overdo it on the helvarins sure all that 3 damage sounds awesome against vehicles but when you meet that horde army your 6 helvarins only have enough firepower to kill 108 pts of guardsman and will never make their points back.

My opinion on the Dominus class:

Valliant is good, because the flamer solves problems knights have. Flyers, horde infantry and -1/2/3 to hit things. (Hemlocks).
The Harpoon is just a gimmick, but if you are close enough, it can pop a transport per turn.

Castellan seems to weak for me. He is just good with Cawl's wrath. With this relic he should be pretty good.

On the other hand, I only recommend Dominus Knights for character sniping.

Hemlock gets pretty much wrecked by Castellan. Auto hit yes but hitting like a brick when you hit is also good way. It packs enough shots to land hits and each hit hurts.

Oh and btw mechanicum traits and strategems are better than knight house so that Cawl's wrath is accessible. Or just forget household traditions. Though main point of interest is volcano lance. Plasma is just a bonus

Questoris knights give you a far more durable army because they are so much cheaper. You get a lot more T8 wounds across your list by taking them. Armigers give you even more wounds per point, though at only T7 they aren’t quite as valuable.

You do get the 4++ to stick on one knight though. The Castellan is a great candidate for that.

However, there are two ways to make your knights live a long time. One is to be tough. The other is to kill the things that threaten you, fast. Castellans are good at this. Valiants are terrible at it.

I’ve watched a couple of batreps now featuring valiants. Tabletop tactics have one in which when a valiant does almost nothing in turns 1 and 2. After that it starts to have fun, killing mortarion and a bunch of other stuff. In another report against nids the valiant gets taken out in cc.

Overall I’m not convinced that either is a “must have”. I do think the Castellan is useful because it looks like it wins duels against the kinds of things that usually scare knights. The valiant’s problem is that going near the enemy is risky and slow. A house raven one with landstrider and a 2+ save would be my choice I think, so that it could get around the board.

Yeah neither are must have's which is great.

And I agree on valiant having trouble doing much early. It has threat range of 28" to begin with. That's easily ignored on gunlines. If gunline doesn't want you need at least 4" advance roll to get anything and even then first target will be cheap chaff.

Castellan meanwhile at least can threaten from T1 on the word go and thanks to size and 8th ed LOS rules not many places on board where you can hide anything but basic infantry. And if those are squishy characters(ork weirboys, IG CP battery etc) even that won't be protection.

Suzuteo wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
I feel that results might not bear out this lack of faith in the Valiant.

I think you can thunder it up the middle of the board flaming stuff and sniping a character a turn, charging anything within range just to get the additional movement distance, then when it dies use the stratagem to make it 50% likely to detonate and do d6 mortals to all units in 3d6" range. (edit this is not entirely accurate... assuming no rerolls I think it is 75% chance to blow up but only 25% chance to blow 3d6)

It's a 600 point suicide unit and I want one.

At the absolute worst it is a total zone denial tool as your opponent will be spending a considerable amount of energy trying to stay more than 20"-28" away from it so they won't get harpooned and cremated next turn.

The thing about a Knight is that you have to eliminate threats to it to allow it to make back it's points. I doubt any Knight is going to kill more than 400 points worth of units without massive support. That's ultimately why I don't think Knights will be successful alone except against unprepared armies. There is also an efficiency problem because we can only use Full Tilt and Ion Shield once per phase. Fortunately, depending on the wording, Raven stratagem can be spammed because it affects multiple phases throughout the turn. Definitely use once during the Psychic phase and again in Movement and possibly again in Shooting.

That being said, the huge advantage of Mechanicum Knights means that we almost guaranteedly will be partnered with AdMech. Stygies Dragoons and Electro-Priests are probably our best bet for alpha striking. Kastelan Robots handle hordes.

with a single knight elimination of threats quickly is a priority because they’re all going after your one knight.... when you have 2-3 and a bunch of armigers that story changes rapidly. Also the opponent has to choose whether to shoot the 4++ knight or the 2+/5++ first and bank on whether or not you’ll blow rotate ion shields on the wrong one. And then after that head game is done the armigers that haven’t been shot at ride in and wreck face in cc

Opponent can start firing at one target with lesser guns. If you use rotate ion shield right away he can switch target. If you wait for big guns...Well then all the lesser guns(like lascannons) gets to shoot at will.

tneva82 wrote:
Opponent can start firing at one target with lesser guns. If you use rotate ion shield right away he can switch target. If you wait for big guns...Well then all the lesser guns(like lascannons) gets to shoot at will.

not at will any time it’s targeted you can pop it, so you can weather one to bait them into thinking you’ll let that one go, then pop it when they start the big guns, now they’ve wasted at minimum 2 units shooting and have to choose if they’re going to keep firing at the same one

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah neither are must have's which is great.

And I agree on valiant having trouble doing much early. It has threat range of 28" to begin with. That's easily ignored on gunlines. If gunline doesn't want you need at least 4" advance roll to get anything and even then first target will be cheap chaff.

Castellan meanwhile at least can threaten from T1 on the word go and thanks to size and 8th ed LOS rules not many places on board where you can hide anything but basic infantry. And if those are squishy characters(ork weirboys, IG CP battery etc) even that won't be protection.

Hmmm, 28 inches seem like a pretty big threat range to me. And even if it can't bring all of its guns to bear on turn 1, it will definitely be able to do so on turn 2. The guns it has on its carapace are substantial. Let's say we go 3 siege breaker cannons. That's the equivalent of having 6 predator tank autocannons shooting on turn 1. I think that's not too shabby for turn 1 shooting from the Valiant. Turn 2 onwards, we will then add the awesome firepower of the confragation cannon and that ridiculous spear, and the 4 melta guns.

And this is of course, assuming the opposing player knows how scary that confrag cannon is, and has purposely positioned himself far back enough to be out of that 28 inch threat range turn 1. To me, both the Dominus models fufill two different roles while being awesome at shooting in general, and tough to kill as well. So, if I could, I would choose to run both.

I am leaning towards a tricked out melee Gallant (very cheap), and then using the points saved for a Valiant and a Castellan. Which one would the opponent want to focus on? With the landstrider warlord trait, the Gallant could potentially be right in their face turn 1, The Castellan is firing all its ranged weapons turn 1, while the Valiant is moving into the middle of the board, creating a huge area denial midboard while providing supporting fire as well.

Give all 3 knights defensive artifacts. I expect to be shot at. With all the new heirlooms and warlord traits and such, IK just got a lot more durable to shooting while being able to handle a lot of different situations now. For example, the Gallant can have landstrider trait and Sanctuary heirloom (5++ in melee). If shot at, I will spend the 1 cp to raise its Ion shields to 4++. Valiant will take the Ion bulwark warlord trait and use Traitor's Pyre. So, that has a 4++ as well. The Castellan will use the Armour of the Sainted Ion giving it a 2+, 5++. All three will be pretty durable.

gendoikari87 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Opponent can start firing at one target with lesser guns. If you use rotate ion shield right away he can switch target. If you wait for big guns...Well then all the lesser guns(like lascannons) gets to shoot at will.

not at will any time it’s targeted you can pop it, so you can weather one to bait them into thinking you’ll let that one go, then pop it when they start the big guns, now they’ve wasted at minimum 2 units shooting and have to choose if they’re going to keep firing at the same one

You fire your AT guns from lesser to bigger. Until he pops all your previous guns have got through without ion shield. If knight intercepts then not only you got previously guns without ion shield now you can fire(say that volcano cannon) at another target all together.

Just wanted to bring up the Atropos, the strongest CC Knight in the game, precodex. While it's lost that spot to a pimped out Gallant, it does benefit hugely from the advance&charge strat, as its base move is 14" and it advances 2d6".

This means that if he has a target within 30" he has a pretty great chance of getting it in CC that turn. That's a mighty big threat area. For this reason, I think the Atropos might be best suited to House Raven, purely to unlock the shoot+advance trait. One of his guns has a range of 9" too, so it synergises well with it.

The guy is now a real landstrider.

Atrapos... strongest CC Knight?

Am I missing something?

Isn't the Lancer, undoubtedly, the strongest CC Knight purely through virtue of an innate 4++ (Now can be 3++) In melee and ranged?

Or do you simply mean the strongest close range Knight, not necessarily close combat?

Edit: Yes. I missed that the gun had a melee mode.

The Atropos can be 3++ vs shooting and 4++ in melee (4++ and 5++ normally) can reroll hits and wounds vs MC, vehicles and buildings rather than just hits on the charge.

However, I agree, the Lancer is better in melee due to the fact it can be 3++ in melee (2++ if you rotate, I think?) and the -1 to hit.

The Atropos gets there easier and has better guns on the way in, though.

The Atropos beats the Lancer because it gets to reroll all failed hits and wounds in CC with monsters and vehicles, whereas the Lancer only rerolls hits in the same situation, if it charged.

However, as you point out, the Lancer gets a 4++ in CC, 3++ with the strat, as opposed to 5++/4++. I prefer his 3++ against shooting though.

Finally, the Atropos has two actually quite nice guns.

Hey, they're both great, but I went for the Atropos because reroll hits and wounds is scary. Now the guy can hoof it 30" to be in CC in turn one, shooting on the way with no penalty, he's just got a new lease of life.

gendoikari87 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Opponent can start firing at one target with lesser guns. If you use rotate ion shield right away he can switch target. If you wait for big guns...Well then all the lesser guns(like lascannons) gets to shoot at will.

not at will any time it’s targeted you can pop it, so you can weather one to bait them into thinking you’ll let that one go, then pop it when they start the big guns, now they’ve wasted at minimum 2 units shooting and have to choose if they’re going to keep firing at the same one

Dude. Would you fall for this trick? Never make strategies that assume your opponent is dumber than you.

In any case, defending three Knights with one stratagem is impossible at high level play. It's made even more difficult if the one the opponent opens up on is a Dominus or Imperialis Knight. The former because you have to commit 3CP to the defense. The latter because you don't have any margin of error for that damage table.

Oh, and those of you arguing three Knights are easier to defend than one need to work on your risk management skills. Instead of using mutually supporting units with diverse strengths and weaknesses to execute a strategy, you're doubling down on one set of strengths and weaknesses and mistaking redundancy for efficacy. I would be shocked if a Knight Lance ever made it to the last table in the state that they're in.

So whats the best setup for a gallant? the better save relic?

Personally I plan to run mine as House Raven to complement my Ad Mech army, Landstrider WL trait for the +2 to advances and charges, the Paragon Gauntlet, a Stormspear Rocket Pod, and a meltagun. Run up the field turn 1 and get a good chance at a turn 1 charge, Rotate Ion Shields for a 4++ because he's going to be a big target, and then proceed to smash face.

It appears that you get Rotate Ion Shields for 1cp on the Dominus if you take the Dominus as a Knight of the Cog in an AdMech detachment. Because GW doesn’t read their own rules.

SJ

Any way to buff Knights with psychic support so far?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It appears that you get Rotate Ion Shields for 1cp on the Dominus if you take the Dominus as a Knight of the Cog in an AdMech detachment. Because GW doesn’t read their own rules.

SJ

Purely raw, I don't believe the Dominuses would get access to any strategems from the admech codex, as they're from another book. You can see this backed up by the fact that GW reprinted all the relevant strategems in the knight codex. If they intended for you to cross reference the admech codex they wouldn't have bothered including the admech strats in the knight codex.

Even if there's some sort of legalese that theoretically let's you do this, a person would be an idiot to build a list around it right now. GW is FAQing codexes within a couple of weeks of them dropping. GW will update the admech FAQ to state that no, you must pay 3cp to rotate the shields on a Dominus, no ifs ands or buts.

So yeah, I guess you could theoretically use it for an event if it happens in the next week or something, but odds are it'll be FAQ'd soon if there is even any room for debate on this. RAI is obvious here, it's kind of like when the guard codex dropped and people were taking cover with tanks and using ogryn bodyguards to take wounds for tank commanders. There may not be anything saying you -cant- do that right now, but you'd be a fool to assume GW will let it slide.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It appears that you get Rotate Ion Shields for 1cp on the Dominus if you take the Dominus as a Knight of the Cog in an AdMech detachment. Because GW doesn’t read their own rules.

SJ

Purely raw, I don't believe the Dominuses would get access to any strategems from the admech codex, as they're from another book. You can see this backed up by the fact that GW reprinted all the relevant strategems in the knight codex. If they intended for you to cross reference the admech codex they wouldn't have bothered including the admech strats in the knight codex.

Pure RAW you get admech detachment you have access to that strategem and since it's keywords works...Strategems across codex DO work if keywords share with the sole exception of daemon deep strike which is specifically excluded and not even "this applies to all strategems across different codexes period" style but "this applies to this singular strategem" style.

Thus as long as you have ad mech det RAW that strategem IS usable...But RAI is rather obvious. We'll see how long it takes to change.

Since the Dominus route feels best left for the future, I'm thinking of expanding my Knight and Guard with a couple more Questors from Renegade and a pair of Armigers.

From the looks of things, I can get essentially this combination of arms on my Questors taking into account the limits on points and sprue parts:
2x Avengers
1x RFBC
1x Thermal
1x Chainsword
1x Gauntlet

So, here's the question. Is it better to run a pair of Crusaders and a Gallant or a mix of Crusader, Warden, and.... probably a Paladin I guess?

Why not magnetize the lot and run whatever suits your fancy for each game?

What is the best bataillon to add to your knight army?
Seems the choices are
1. Regular ig: 2 commanders or 1 Psyker and 1 commander, 30guards
2. Dkk: 2 officer and 30 guards
3. Mechanicus: 2 engineer and 15 rangers
4. Sisters : 2 canoness and 15 sisters.f

Everything else looks like too much points.
Guard is either the cheapest or bring much needed psychic defence. On the other hand fragile for holding objectives.
Dkk won't flee so but not much else
Mechanics can repair your knights and sanitation potshots might do something. They have several way to be a tad harder to kill.
Sister have act of faith...

So which one to take. Really are there to give co and hold objective, so we are not expecting them to do miracles.

tneva82 wrote:
Why not magnetize the lot and run whatever suits your fancy for each game?

Already did. That's why I talk in terms of which arms I have in my army and then I have to remember what knight that combo actually refers to.

Doctor-boom wrote:
What is the best bataillon to add to your knight army?

So which one to take. Really are there to give co and hold objective, so we are not expecting them to do miracles.

I like IG for cheap bodies, mechanicus for bringing in reroll buff auras for knights. Castellan that reroll 1's to hit sounds evil. D3 cawl's wrath that is very unlikely to overheat? Oh yes please!

tneva82 wrote:

Doctor-boom wrote:
What is the best bataillon to add to your knight army?

So which one to take. Really are there to give co and hold objective, so we are not expecting them to do miracles.

I like IG for cheap bodies, mechanicus for bringing in reroll buff auras for knights. Castellan that reroll 1's to hit sounds evil. D3 cawl's wrath that is very unlikely to overheat? Oh yes please!

Agreed, an admech battalion does sound good. Other than that though, you're basically paying a bunch of points for 5 CPs, and getting 5 drops too. I do think that's a problem in an army that wants to go first so much.

The problem with Admech is that you get the cool synergy with the knight of the cog stratagem, for one turn of the game, and then what? I guess you could do it again to give a gallant rerolls of 1s to hit in combat. But the actual rangers seem worse than useless to me. I'd actually consider trying to fit in an IG battalion and a tech priest on his own as an auxiliary, as that seems to be enough to unlock admech stratagems (due to the weirdly inconsistent way GW goes about writing rules!).

Sisters are interesting. They have Celestine, so at least one unit isn't a tax. A unit of hvy bolter retributors could also be useful, as they'll usually get to fire twice a turn. And the sisters are kind of ok for the price.

An option with guard is to bring some added firepower. I like how you can have a tank commander as an HQ, as he might actually accomplish something. Likewise a primaris psyker. I actually think it could be good to bring some scion troops, for late-ish game objective grabbing. You can of course just take 3 infantry squads and 2 officers, but they feel painfully useless to me.

I'm far from convinced that a battalion is a good idea. Maybe at 2k, so you can still have 4 proper knights with it, but if it's a choice between a knight or a few CPs and bodies I'd go for a knight every time. I can live with using fewer stratagems. I feel like if I bring 4 knights and I meet a guy with 3 knights and some trash infantry, I win. Thanks for first blood and a few extra kill points.

Ultimately I think there are two ways to lose as IKs: if your opponent can kill all your knights and if they can flood the board to capture all the objectives. If I'm taking allies I want them to help me with at least one of those problems, and right now I'm not seeing how that's the for a lot of these options. I need the allies to actually do something - not just bring CPs and then die.

This is why Guilliman has such potential. He brings 3CPs and makes a great warlord. He's 1 drop, he can't be picked out, he's a beast in cc and he makes nearby knights reroll 1s to hit for free. Oh and you get a mini version of landstrider with him too. It's a shame I hate him so much, because he'd be great if I didn't!

Accordingly, I'm looking at all-knight options for this 1750pt tournament I'm going to. I'm looking at two variants. One has a Castellan, gallant and 2 errants; the other has a castellant, warden, errant and two armigers. On the whole I think I prefer the second option, though there isn't much in it. Let me know your thoughts:

Option 1. 1750 on the nose.

Castellan 593
Turret
4 Missiles
4++ warlord trait
Cawl's Wrath

Errant 395
Thermal Cannon
Reaper Chainsword
Heavy Stubber

Errant 395
Thermal Cannon
Reaper Chainsword
Heavy Stubber

Gallant 367
Reaper Chainsword
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Meltagun

Option 2. 1748

Castellan 593
Turret
4 Missiles
4++ warlord trait
Cawl's Wrath

Errant 400
Thermal Cannon
Thunderstrike Gauntlet
Heavy Stubber

Warden 427
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Reaper Chainsword
Heavy Stubber
Ironstorm Missile Pod

2 Armiger Warglaives 164
2 Heavy Stubbers

To be honest I think option 2 is significantly better. The warden is a lot better than an errant, especially with its ironstorm pod. I'm not sure how two armigers stack up compared with a gallant but I like at least having the option of hanging back and shooting. The surprisingly long range on their meltas should help with that.

The trouble is, fielding 4 big scary knights at 1750 is very tempting indeed!

I'm toying with the idea of a Sally Forth Valiant. It solves a lot of his range and squishiness issues.

 raverrn wrote:
I'm toying with the idea of a Sally Forth Valiant. It solves a lot of his range and squishiness issues.

You can't Sally Forth Dominus-class Knights.

A house Raven valiant with landstrider is massively better than any other option, so far as I can see. The ability to get the harpoon and 4 meltas into range on turn 1 is huge.

Even then, I really don't like how you're forced to rush the enemy. Bad things happen to knights that go near the enemy - they get smited and people rapid fire plasma at them. I like the option to hang back for a turn or two if I need to, eliminating threats, before I move forward. I'm not a fan of any unit that has to act in a particular way, especially when you're investing so many points in the thing.

gendoikari87 wrote:
with a single knight elimination of threats quickly is a priority because they’re all going after your one knight.... when you have 2-3 and a bunch of armigers that story changes rapidly.

The opponent's strategy does not change when you take multiple Knights. It changes when you take units that disrupt his strategy to kill your Knights. One Knight, two, three. Doesn't matter as long as you also bring stuff to kill the things that the opponent relies on to kill your Knight or Knights.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Also the opponent has to choose whether to shoot the 4++ knight or the 2+/5++ first and bank on whether or not you’ll blow rotate ion shields on the wrong one. And then after that head game is done the armigers that haven’t been shot at ride in and wreck face in cc

This is terrible game theory and economics. Always assume your opponent is going to make the optimal choice and then consider your optimal choice in response. Nobody who wins tournaments ever relies on their opponents making play mistakes, but always seeks to maximize the impact of his skill on the game state.

Furthermore, realize that Rotate Ion Shield, Ion Bulwark, etc. are SCARCE defensive resources that become suboptimal when defense demanded exceeds defense supplied. If you have one Knight, you can protect 100% of your Knight. Every Knight you add beyond that demands more defensive resources.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:
A house Raven valiant with landstrider is massively better than any other option, so far as I can see. The ability to get the harpoon and 4 meltas into range on turn 1 is huge.

Even then, I really don't like how you're forced to rush the enemy. Bad things happen to knights that go near the enemy - they get smited and people rapid fire plasma at them. I like the option to hang back for a turn or two if I need to, eliminating threats, before I move forward. I'm not a fan of any unit that has to act in a particular way, especially when you're investing so many points in the thing.

You're not going to even want to get the meltas into range turn one because their primary targets are probably screened or deep striking anyway. Remember, Knights cannot move or advance over infantry. Only fall back. Also, without Ion Bulwark or Sacred Ion, your Valiant is dead turn one unless you remove threats to it. If most armies can kill Magnus in one turn, they can kill your Valiant too.

Smite spam is not too effective against Mechanicum Knights. Benevolence gives us an additional 5+ save from mortal wounds.

I totally agree with you on forced choices though. I think the best Knight is still the Raven Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear, followed by Taranis/Raven Crusader because they have the option of plinking the first or second turn while acting as a counter-charger for your artillery. Death Grip with Knight of the Cog is 2 CP to almost guaranteedly kill a Captain or Space Marine character.

Mandragola wrote:
A house Raven valiant with landstrider is massively better than any other option, so far as I can see. The ability to get the harpoon and 4 meltas into range on turn 1 is huge.

Even then, I really don't like how you're forced to rush the enemy. Bad things happen to knights that go near the enemy - they get smited and people rapid fire plasma at them. I like the option to hang back for a turn or two if I need to, eliminating threats, before I move forward. I'm not a fan of any unit that has to act in a particular way, especially when you're investing so many points in the thing.

How fast that thing goes? 10" move, 2" landstrider, let's be generous and 4" for advance. 16". Unless enemy wants that's not range for melta nor harpoon. You aren't even quaranteed T1 flamer for anything but chaff.

Suzuteo wrote:

I totally agree with you on forced choices though. I think the best Knight is still the Raven Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear, followed by Taranis/Raven Crusader because they have the option of plinking the first or second turn while acting as a counter-charger for your artillery. Death Grip with Knight of the Cog is 2 CP to almost guaranteedly kill a Captain or Space Marine character.

I think I'm right there with you, I like the Raven Gallant with a Stormspear a lot but I feel like a Raven Warden with the Paragon Gauntlet and Stormspear might be one of the best all rounders. The upgrade of the Paragon Gauntlet over the Thunderstrike Gauntlet outweighs the improvement of Endless Fury over a regular Avenger Gatling Cannon to me. Not only does the Paragon Gauntlet make it much more threatening against other Titanic units, it also makes its Death Grip more reliable since it's hitting on 3+ instead of 4+. I still feel like the Gallant is the best "duelist" out of all of them since given its 2+ WS and 5 attacks, the Paragon Gauntlet can one round another knight, let alone almost every vehicle in the game, fairly easily. It's definitely going to be a hard choice for me to decide between them for my Ad Mech army.

I think cheapo Gallant is the third best option. I feel the problem with Gallant is that its really dependent on getting into CC to make its points back (more forced choices). Furthermore, the Reaper is 30 points we're not getting back, whereas Endless Fury or Avenger is always useful.

Indeed, the key comparison seems to be:

Thermal Cannon vs. Gauntlet + Stormspear vs. Reaper, +1A, +1WS