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So slighty mech related and also slightly knight related, and actually fluffyish

Current new list thoughts

Stygis bat
Enginseer
Enginseer

5 man ranger squad x3

Stygis bat
Enginseer
Enginseer

5 man ranger squad x3

House Raven knight lance
Knight Gallant with 2+ to move/charge/advance WL and the 2+ armor relic and a top hat stormspear

Knight Castellan with 4 shoulder cannons and 2 missles, Cawls Wrath Relic plasma and 4++ wl trait

Knight Crusader with battle cannon, relic avenger, stormspear hat and either the ignore ap 1 WL trait or the 1cp and 1 reroll or the wounds rolls of 6s do mortal wounds

should be slightly under 2k, 16 command points to start and either 10 or 11 to use in game once all the wl traits/relics are bought

Imperial Knight Lance, 1750 Army

SuperHeavy:

Knight Lancer
Warlord (4++), Relic (2+ Armor)

Knight Gallant
Warlord (5++ vs Melee)

3x Armiger Warglaives
Melta Gun, x3

Cadian Battalion:

2x Company Commander

3x 9 Infantry, 1 Mortar

Cadian Battalion:

2x Company Commander

2x 9 Infantry, 1 Mortar

1x 10 Infantry

----


Here's what I'm working with. Local Meta moved to 1750. Digging it.

Can we actually run the FW knights at this point? Would love to take my lancer.

A Cerastus Acheron, a Gallant and a Warden are 1260 points, leaving you enough for a small but useful Battalion (Elysian, Scion and/or Infantry Squad for objectives) even at 1500 (we usually play this size).

I've had my lancer painted forever. Are they pretty good these days? I haven't played it this edition.

2+ Armor (with a relic) 4++ Inv (Against everything) With a Warlord Trait, pushing to 2+3++ with 1CP.

They're tanks. They don't do a ton of damage, they just don't die.

For those of you running Guard, are you screening or just hunkering down with them?

Depends scenario and opponents army. The more i need to control objectives the more i will try to keep them alive. Knights are few to control objectives

Trying to figure out what combination of Knights to go.
Few ideas I've had, all of these assume at least a minimum Guard battalion tagging along for support;

1) Warden, Gallant, Gallant in House Terryn Knight Lance, then Valiant in Hawkshroud Auxiliary (for stratagem, looks like auxiliary doesn't get tradition rules but should still unlock the Overwatch stratagem).

2) Castellan, Valiant, Gallant in mixed House Knight Lance, then use leftover points for three Culexus Assassins. Castellan is Raven (re-roll 1s stratagem), Valiant is Hawkshroud (Overwatch stratagem), Gallant is Terryn (fight twice stratagem).

3) Same as 2) but instead of anti-psyker assassins, run a second Guard battalion with some Mortar support (should fit 2x3 teams).

It's hard to say whether taking two Dominus' and one Questoris, or one Dominus and three Questoris', is the right way to go. It's impossible to fit two Dominus and two Questoris' alongside a Guard battalion assuming all the leaked points are accurate, otherwise I'd just do that.
As far as the Dominus' shoulder weapons are concerned, I'm thinking going 2xSiegebreaker Cannon hardpoints and 1xShieldbreaker Missile hardpoint (you get 2 missiles in each battery, so 2 guns and 2 missiles) is probably the best way to go. Siegebreakers are only 9 points more than a pair of missiles and can be fired every turn with no restrictions and aren't hungry for Command Points like the Shieldbreakers are.
I don't really care for the Armigers look-wise so they're out, and I want to run at least one Dominus which means the Valiant stays put in each list, though I would prefer to run both as I adore the Castellan too. I don't like tripling up on anything either so the likely soon-to-be-very-popular Gallant trio is not what I want to run. Quite the pickle to be in!

It's sad that the Castellan is so reliant on being Mechanicus-aligned for the relic plasma weapon considering the House Mortan unique 1CP stratagem would let it obliterate Aeldari flyers with ease.

Side note, it sounds like House Terryn's fight twice stratagem doesn't trigger at the end of the phase like similar stratagems from other armies, but after a House Terryn model has made all of its attacks. That's....bananas if it's accurate. Source is GMG Gaming by the way.

How’re you doing a mixed house Knight Lance?

EDIT: Ah, never mind. You’re just forgoing the household benefits in face of just using stratagems, Hrmm. Definitely needs lots of CP’s then.

 Buzzdady wrote:
How’re you doing a mixed house Knight Lance?

EDIT: Ah, never mind. You’re just forgoing the household benefits in face of just using stratagems, Hrmm. Definitely needs lots of CP’s then.

Yeah exactly, a lot of the Knights really want to be from differing households, and the Mechanicus/Imperialis alignment with certain relics and stratagems is limiting unless you go mixed houses in the same detachment. For example, I don't mind losing out on Raven's advance and shoot normally buff for a Castellan if it means I get to give it re-roll 1s for a phase (which is amazing with it's guns in particular) and not lock the other Knights into that household, especially as a Valiant generally wants to be Hawkshroud with that crazy stratagem (or any flavour of Imperialis for the relic flamer) and Terryn seems like a no brainer for a Gallant (fight twice is incredible on them). Of course, actually benefiting from the Hawkshroud trait is good for literally every Knight, but at the same time the Valiant's main draw is the auto-hitting flamer and that doesn't care about a degrading profile. Similarly, being able to combine Full Tilt with Landstrider and the Terryn trait on a Gallant is a tough one to chew, but the Terryn trait itself is the least necessary component of that combo (just roll well for your runs and charges). The codex designers did a really good job of making it tough to decide between pure Household or mixed Household for a Lance depending on what Knights you want to run (and because I want to run Dominus' and Gallants together, that's a tough choice).

Very insightful! Thanks for the write up. Has me thinking though...

If you take a lance under a certain household, and then a super heavy auxiliary with a fourth Knight, you’d be unable to use the stratagem to get extra relics on both detachments, right?

So the lance has 1 relic, use the stratagem to get 2 more. You could only give them to the other knights in that lance, not one to a lance knight and one to the super heavy auxiliary one. I suppose you could make that one a character and your warlord for a relic and then use the stratagem on the lance.

I don't think there's anything stopping you from giving one extra relic to your Lance and the other extra relic to your Auxiliary, ditto with the extra Warlord/character stratagem. It's certainly what I plan on doing if I go for a variation of Option 1) as listed above.

Just worked out that you can legally field Guilliman (Auxiliary), a minimum Guard battalion, and 4 Gallants (Knight Lance) in 2000 points. I wouldn't do it, but good lord that would be terrifying For CP, you get 3 (Guilliman Warlord) + 3 (Knight Lance) + 3 (Battle-Forged) + 5 (Battalion) = 14CP. You'll always spend at least 2CP on the Guard and Knight extra relics (Kurov's + Paragon Gauntlet), maybe 5CP if you want one of the other nice Knight relics a Gallant can use (i.e. Helm for +1 Attack, 2+ save, 5++ in combat, etc), then 3CP for the extra Warlords (4++ on one and Landstrider on the other seem like the best bets). Hopefully you refund a lot of those, then spam Full Tilt and Terryn's fight twice stratagem with Guilliman giving any nearby Knights re-roll 1s to-hit Also, because the Lance automatically makes one of the Knights a character and you can split the extra relic and warlord stratagems among the other three should you wish, you can have all 4 Gallants and Guilliman together capable of massed Heroic Interventions Just watch out for Flyers!

That would make for a pretty crazy game. I really love the flavor this codex adds now, I’ll see how I feel going against them though!

Small side question: your warlord needs to be on the table to refund spent cp’s I believe, so you couldn’t refund ones spent on relics and such as they’re before the game, right?

Good catch, that would be correct. Honestly though that's one of those grey area debates that still hasn't been resolved as far as I know (or did I miss that in the FAQ?)

Haven’t looked for it specifically in a bit, I know that’s how our team and our opponents were handling it at Adepticon anyway. Obviously would be real nice if you could refund though.

While I would never run more than one Knight (I am technically more of a Soup player), in terms of what mix of Knights to do, I would think the deciding factor is WLT, stratagem, and relic scarcity.

That being said, this may be most efficient:

Raven Gallant - Reaper, Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Relic: Armour of the Sainted Ion, WLT: Landstrider
Raven Warden - Avenger, Heavy Flamer, Gauntlet, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear, Relic: Endless Fury or Paragon, WLT: Ion Bulwark
Raven Castellan - Plasma Decimator, Volcano Lance, 2x Shieldbreaker, 2x Twin Meltas, 2x Twin Siegebreaker, Relic: Cawl's Wrath, WLT: Cunning Commander

Can't have duplicate Warlord Traits unfortunately, so no 4++ on multiple Knights without using the stratagem.

Caederes wrote:
Can't have duplicate Warlord Traits unfortunately, so no 4++ on multiple Knights without using the stratagem.

Oh. Well, in that case, I suppose the Castellan gets Cunning Commander? There's not much flexibility here. Gallant needs Landstrider and Armour of the Sainted Ion, Warden needs Ion Bulwark (it's less efficient on the Castellan), and Castellan needs Cawl's Wrath.

 Buzzdady wrote:
That would make for a pretty crazy game. I really love the flavor this codex adds now, I’ll see how I feel going against them though!

Small side question: your warlord needs to be on the table to refund spent cp’s I believe, so you couldn’t refund ones spent on relics and such as they’re before the game, right?

Assuming you’re talking about Grand Strategist from the IG codex?

This has not been addressed in an FAQ, but that is because it’s addressed in the codex. You need to be on the table for Grand Strategist.

What we should really do is put together a list of which knights want to be which houses. I’m firmly of the belief that the relics and stratagems are far superior to any house traditions, so I absolutely plan on running a mixed house detachment.

I am confused. Why are there two IK tactica threads? And codex is out, so we should all go over to the other thread?

Are there two? The other I thought was a rumors thread

Now that the codex is out, the rumors thread should move here to the tactica thread.

In any case, here are my impressions:

Dominus Knights suck. They cost an awful lot, are less durable than Questoris Knights because there's no way anyone can afford 3 CP Rotate Ion Shields every turn, and only one of them has access to the tools to fulfill its role (the Castellan).

The best lone Knight you can run now is a Raven Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear. You can take two Helverins for support. I think they are mediocre, but they do give your Warden that delicious move, advance, shoot, charge turn one--rerolling 1s the entire time.

Perceptor sucks. The Las-Impulsor is a jack of all trades weapon that essentially halves the range of better guns. Paradoxically, it pretty much forces you to take Helverins, which are a hyper-specialized T6 vehicle killer.

Mechanicus Knights have so many advantages, it's not even a fair comparison. Best Houses (Taranis and Raven), best stratagem (Machine Spirit Resurgent), access to Canticles (Death Grip with Invocation of Machine Might instant kills a ton of stuff), and they get the Castellan.

Imperialis Knights suck unless you run a Hawkshroud Lance. Furthermore, they can only take Valiant. The only bright side is outflanking Gallants, but there are much, much better deep strike options out there.

Freeblades are a big missed opportunity. I don't think the qualities are appealing enough or the burdens harsh enough to ever make someone not want to pick.

Finally, the Auxiliary and Lance rules are not fluffy and unduly punishing, especially to the Imperialis side, which relies on having a tradition to make up for their lack of Machine Spirit Resurgent.

In summary, the codex creates some really strong builds and adds much needed value to Knights, but it also intentionally created some weird de-synergy and inequality.

Considering that the Castellan is previewed in Terryn colours, I’m going to say that the dominus being admech/Imperialis locked is wrong

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering that the Castellan is previewed in Terryn colours, I’m going to say that the dominus being admech/Imperialis locked is wrong

I don't think he literally means that Imperialis can't use Castellans, but more that if you want to be competitive a Castellan should always be Mechanicus aligned for Cawl's Wrath as it turns a bad gun into a decent/good one.

But as he pointed out, Dominus aren’t very competitive to begin with.

Crusaders, Wardens, Gallants and allied Helverins seem the way to go this book. With the fist and Gatling gun being the relics of choice.

Caederes wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering that the Castellan is previewed in Terryn colours, I’m going to say that the dominus being admech/Imperialis locked is wrong

I don't think he literally means that Imperialis can't use Castellans, but more that if you want to be competitive a Castellan should always be Mechanicus aligned for Cawl's Wrath as it turns a bad gun into a decent/good one.

This. The thing is a waste of 600+ points without Cawl's Wrath. The Valiant is in a similar situation.

Suzuteo wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering that the Castellan is previewed in Terryn colours, I’m going to say that the dominus being admech/Imperialis locked is wrong

I don't think he literally means that Imperialis can't use Castellans, but more that if you want to be competitive a Castellan should always be Mechanicus aligned for Cawl's Wrath as it turns a bad gun into a decent/good one.

This. The thing is a waste of 600+ points without Cawl's Wrath. The Valiant is in a similar situation.

For the Valiant it is to a much less significant degree. It kills 4ish MEQs instead of 6ish MEQs.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

Caederes wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Considering that the Castellan is previewed in Terryn colours, I’m going to say that the dominus being admech/Imperialis locked is wrong

I don't think he literally means that Imperialis can't use Castellans, but more that if you want to be competitive a Castellan should always be Mechanicus aligned for Cawl's Wrath as it turns a bad gun into a decent/good one.

This. The thing is a waste of 600+ points without Cawl's Wrath. The Valiant is in a similar situation.

For the Valiant it is to a much less significant degree. It kills 4ish MEQs instead of 6ish MEQs.

True. But the Valiant, as cool as it looks, isn't well-equipped to do the role it is supposed to fulfill. 12" anti-MC and 18" anti-horde shooting at 3+ (but usually 4+ or 5+ because he never gets MSR) and only 10" move is awful. At least the Castellan has scary guns with good range. But Dominus in general is a white elephant. Expensive as hell, requires CP we don't have, poor in melee, and neither durable nor effective at removing threats from the board.

Raven Warden with Gauntlet and Stormspear all the way. Maybe with two Helverins; I still have yet to decide if the free Advance move is worth it or not.

I feel that results might not bear out this lack of faith in the Valiant.

I think you can thunder it up the middle of the board flaming stuff and sniping a character a turn, charging anything within range just to get the additional movement distance, then when it dies use the stratagem to make it 50% likely to detonate and do d6 mortals to all units in 3d6" range. (edit this is not entirely accurate... assuming no rerolls I think it is 75% chance to blow up but only 25% chance to blow 3d6)

It's a 600 point suicide unit and I want one.

At the absolute worst it is a total zone denial tool as your opponent will be spending a considerable amount of energy trying to stay more than 20"-28" away from it so they won't get harpooned and cremated next turn.