Overread wrote: Don't forget one big weakness of the Lynch film is the latter half after he escapes into the desert. At that point Lynch was basically running out of time to fit the film into. If you've read the book you can connect a lot of the dots, but its very much a whistle-stop of huge events that are hardly touched upon before you're at the end battle. This new film is aiming to, far as I recall, only go as far as Paul escaping into the desert. It's a natural break part that they can end on and leave open to a sequel. If they get it then they'll have more than enough time to develop the second film.
That's the thing...both films ARE based on the same book. And Lynch's film doesn't do a bad job with the story overall up to Paul and Jessica's escape. So yeah, some sequences will look familiar because...that's the story.
From what we see in this trailer, Denis’s movie looks NOTHING like Lynch’s. The ‘84 film had a sumptuous, baroque production design. This film is severely minimalist by comparison.
creeping-deth87 wrote: Yeah, the music was a huge turn off for me as well. I'm still gonna give the movie a go in theaters, assuming they're open of course.
I won't, simply because theaters are a pointlessly stupid risk at the moment. But yeah, that music... bleh. I don't get anachronistic inserts of recent popular music in films set elsewhere/when, or crappy cover versions.
Trailer unfortunately presents the film as a checklist of major scenes (I suspect some of the missing ones won't be in at all).
Didn't expect Drax & Aquaman, but I haven't paid much attention to the casting, though I don't believe those two characters fight or even meet at any point. If they stick to the book, I expect fans of the actors will be _very_ disappointed at how things turn out for those two men. (ie, quickly and early for one and an off screen footnote for the other).
Surprised they went with Crusade over Jihad, as that's just as divisive a term (or even moreso depending on the politics).
creeping-deth87 wrote: Yeah, the music was a huge turn off for me as well. I'm still gonna give the movie a go in theaters, assuming they're open of course.
I won't, simply because theaters are a pointlessly stupid risk at the moment. But yeah, that music... bleh. I don't get anachronistic inserts of recent popular music in films set elsewhere/when, or crappy cover versions.
Trailer unfortunately presents the film as a checklist of major scenes (I suspect some of the missing ones won't be in at all).
Didn't expect Drax & Aquaman, but I haven't paid much attention to the casting, though I don't believe those two characters fight or even meet at any point. If they stick to the book, I expect fans of the actors will be _very_ disappointed at how things turn out for those two men. (ie, quickly and early for one and an off screen footnote for the other).
Surprised they went with Crusade over Jihad, as that's just as divisive a term (or even moreso depending on the politics).
Presumably, he is talking about the impending Harkonnen attack on the Atreides here, not the Fremen religion. Because if not, then yeah, avoiding the Fremen Jihad by naming it the Fremen Crusade would be pretty stupid indeed.
I must admit...against all better judgement...I'm beginning to like this trailer.
Love Dune, Herbert's novels, the KJ & BH novels, the 1984 movie, the 2000 tv shows, the landmark computer games by Cryo and Westwood....
...damn. I still need to get the new board game! Knew I forgot to order something...
Looks like they'll be taking a leaf out of the 2000 tv series by ending the first film with Paul and Jess escaping the sandworm. Which even with just two hours running time it'll be plenty of breathing room for the story and world building.
And yes, Harkonnen Force is frigging amazing. I play it in the background during games of Dune2K and doing a bit of exercise.
I guess i’ll describe why I think Eclipse is the perfect song for this trailer. The lyrics form a totalitizing litany culminating in the line “and everything under the sun is in tune” contradicted by the simple observation “but the sun is eclipsed by the moon.”
In Dune, we see the ambitions of House Atreides, the schemes of House Harkonnen, the machinations of the Bene Gesserit, the Guild, and the Emperor, the prophecies of the Fremen, “plots within plots” — all of these factions’ wills bent on forcing an outcome where their rivals have no response, basically forcing a checkmate scenario. And yet, instead, it all leads to a point of darkness, a moment of uncertainty, a place “where we dare not look,” in which there is radical freedom to choose what it all will mean. And that point is Paul in the desert of Arrakis, when he becomes “the moon” that eclipses the sun, Muad’Dib.
Even the logo for the movie is Arrakis eclipsing its sun or its moon eclipsing Arrakis.
I think they made a mistake with that song in the trailer. The sound of it just didn't fit tonally with what was happening on screen. It was very dissonant, regardless of the lyrical content. I liked everything else about the trailer though.
Manchu wrote: From what we see in this trailer, Denis’s movie looks NOTHING like Lynch’s. The ‘84 film had a sumptuous, baroque production design. This film is severely minimalist by comparison.
Oh sure, the spiritual rendition of Comfortably Numb is my fave.
I don’t get it.
This is a cover of Eclipse. It’s a pretty close cover of the original. It’s not gospel music.
I'm...agreeing with you. It's Floyd and not even that different.
Visually, I like all the big environmental shots that the Lynch film seems light on. It's important for Dune to have those kinds of images. It's an environmental story. Seems like Villeneuve has always used space and emptiness really well, and it just really works for Dune.
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Thargrim wrote: I think they made a mistake with that song in the trailer. The sound of it just didn't fit tonally with what was happening on screen. It was very dissonant, regardless of the lyrical content. I liked everything else about the trailer though.
Well, it's going to be a Zimmer score, so I'm sure we'll get plenty of BWAAAAAAAAH in the actual film.
Looks like they'll be taking a leaf out of the 2000 tv series by ending the first film with Paul and Jess escaping the sandworm. Which even with just two hours running time it'll be plenty of breathing room for the story and world building.
I mean, isn`t the novel itself explicitedly split into Part I and Part II in that regard?
For those who find the music jarring, I can understand this.
Consider that this is intentional. The trailer is asking you to see this in its own light rather than in the light of others’ visions for developing this IP.
Denis is not re-making Lynch’s movie, for example. Rather, and it cannot be stressed enough, this is his adaptation.
Likewise, the worm in this trailer is not primarily a sci fi monster but instead seems to be a kind of symbolic image, like the eclipse, evoking the human eye. The trailer concludes with Paul looking into the maw of the worm and the worm, as a giant pupil and iris, looking back, and then we hear the lyrics “all that you touch and all that you see.”
This is a cover of Eclipse. It’s a pretty close cover of the original. It’s not gospel music.
I've never been a Pink Floyd fan so wasn't familiar with it. If you want to deduct 70's rock cool points, feel free but I have to warn you that it's scant pickings in that regard for me. Regardless, the midpoint of the trailer (the 1:45 mark) sounds like a gospel music to me with a strong female solo singing with a choir backup.
It just oozes retro style industrial evil. And seeing how sickly all the Harkonnens look in this movie, I think they are going to promote an enviromental angle in some way.
I could see that as great for the actual movie but a bit heavy for a trailer where they only partly feature. Maybe they'll have a trailer where it focuses on the Harkonnens? Dave Bautista does look good as the Rabban/the Beast.
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Captain Joystick wrote: Didn't Jodorowsky want Pink Floyd to do the soundtrack for his version of Dune?
I can't help but feel the music choice is deliberate.
Yup, he did. I just watched the documentary on that last week out of boredom. Mick Jagger was supposed to be in the film although I don't recall if he and the Rolling Stones were supposed to contribute to the soundtrack on top of casting him.
Regardless, the midpoint of the trailer (the 1:45 mark) sounds like a gospel music to me with a strong female solo singing with a choir backup.
Sure, what will get from quibbling over what to call the style is limited in the extreme. But maybe now that the reference has been clarified, the choice will make more sense.
That was a trip. I am very happy, I like the music I think it fits, I am a huge fan of the design, the focal points, every image feels like a painting. Like framing in this is just top notch. The fact that the guy who also did Blade Runner 2049 is also doing Dune is... just oh my god I can't believe it. I have some hopes and I hope this knocks it out the park, and smashes disney's window.
Looks like they'll be taking a leaf out of the 2000 tv series by ending the first film with Paul and Jess escaping the sandworm. Which even with just two hours running time it'll be plenty of breathing room for the story and world building.
I mean, isn`t the novel itself explicitedly split into Part I and Part II in that regard?
Yes, in fact i even read it that way, with a break in the middle. I believe the first part ends when Paul has his awakening.
Looks like they'll be taking a leaf out of the 2000 tv series by ending the first film with Paul and Jess escaping the sandworm. Which even with just two hours running time it'll be plenty of breathing room for the story and world building.
I mean, isn`t the novel itself explicitedly split into Part I and Part II in that regard?
Been about two decades since I read Dune itself, but pretty sure it was three parts and the first ending with the sandworm chase. Unlike most others I started with House Atredies and ended with Chapter House Dune, and then carried on with the other Kevin & Brian novels as they rolled out over the years.
creeping-deth87 wrote: Yeah, the music was a huge turn off for me as well. I'm still gonna give the movie a go in theaters, assuming they're open of course.
I won't, simply because theaters are a pointlessly stupid risk at the moment. But yeah, that music... bleh. I don't get anachronistic inserts of recent popular music in films set elsewhere/when, or crappy cover versions..
I strongly suspect that it'll be a situation like Blur on the Starship Troopers trailer... music used solely for the trailer because it's more memorable than an orchestral score.
I don't think it will bomb, simply because of what it is... but I don't see it doing particularly well, to be honest. Even aside from the current economic situation, the trailer tells you absolutely nothing about what the movie is about. To anyone not familiar with the book, it just looks like a pretty but rather dark and humourless sci fi movie, and that's not going to pull in mainstream audiences.
As an aside, the Earthworm Jim cartoon (which for me pre-dates Dune by a considerable margin) really spoilt the gravity of the 'Fear is the mindkiller' mantra for me...
It looks way more accessible than BR2049 though. It's not going to pull in marvel/dc money but it could do okay...hopefully at the very least it does well enough to greenlight the second half. It'll be a real downer if Denis can't see the book all the way through to the end.
Bring on all that merch though, I want all the goodies.
Looks like they'll be taking a leaf out of the 2000 tv series by ending the first film with Paul and Jess escaping the sandworm. Which even with just two hours running time it'll be plenty of breathing room for the story and world building.
I mean, isn`t the novel itself explicitedly split into Part I and Part II in that regard?
Been about two decades since I read Dune itself, but pretty sure it was three parts and the first ending with the sandworm chase. Unlike most others I started with House Atredies and ended with Chapter House Dune, and then carried on with the other Kevin & Brian novels as they rolled out over the years.
Part 1 ends with tying up loose ends with Leto and the Baron, and then Paul's moment of revelation.
Part 2 kicks off with a lot of stuff, including stuff that is obviously in this movie (like Duncan, who spends most of Part 1 'off on a mission,' with a brief exception where he comes back to introduce Stilgar to the Duke). The sandworm crossing is a good 60-odd pages into part 2.
Part 3 kicks off with a two year time skip and pretty much rushes for the end in 120 pages or so.
Part 1 ends with tying up loose ends with Leto and the Baron, and then Paul's moment of revelation.
Part 2 kicks off with a lot of stuff, including stuff that is obviously in this movie (like Duncan, who spends most of Part 1 'off on a mission,' with a brief exception where he comes back to introduce Stilgar to the Duke). The sandworm crossing is a good 60-odd pages into part 2.
Part 3 kicks off with a two year time skip and pretty much rushes for the end in 120 pages or so.
Then its definitely been too long. Might get it down from the loft and give it another read after I finish The Massacre of Mankind.
Manchu wrote: Denis is not re-making Lynch’s movie, for example. Rather, and it cannot be stressed enough, this is his adaptation.
I agree 100%, but also feel like the Lynch film baggage is hefty and inescapable. I believe I saw an interview a while back where Villeneuve had to clarify it somewhat for the reviewer. You'd think people within the industry would get it, but film people see two films and connect them directly. Audiences *might* get it better just because more of them have probably read the book. Still, the entanglement of the two films seems like an X-factor with an uncertain effect. Will it drive some box office? Or will audiences say "where are the weirding modules and heart plugs and kitty milking?!?"
insaniak wrote: I don't think it will bomb, simply because of what it is... but I don't see it doing particularly well, to be honest. Even aside from the current economic situation, the trailer tells you absolutely nothing about what the movie is about. To anyone not familiar with the book, it just looks like a pretty but rather dark and humourlesssci fi movie, and that's not going to pull in mainstream audiences.
You may or may not be right about its success. But is it a millennial thing to demand that every film be light and humorous?
To be clear -- I'm not jumping down YOUR throat on this. It's just that I see this kind of sentiment with some frequency online and don't understand it. Dark stories, tragedies, etc. go back to the birth of drama in Greece.
Is it an MCU thing? Have Marvel movies become so pervasive that audiences expect dance-offs and one-liners all the time? Some of the greatest films in history are pretty much humorless.
warboss wrote: I don't know if any movie or franchise for years to come will pull in prepandeimic MCU money including nuMCU.
I so, so want to go and see this film in the cinema. A bunch of those shots just look epic and like they are designed for massive screens and 30-channel THX speakers blasting you from all around.
But I just won't risk it I'm afraid and I'm angry that they're releasing it during the pandemic - I know I am speaking selfishly from a country which still has high infection rates (I'm sure my opinion would be different if I lived in Finland, South Korea or New Zealand).
I don't know if it's very likely but I hope there is some kind of 'reset' in the new year, should a vaccine have arrived or most of the developed world have things under control, to be able to go and see this without risk.
So, my thoughts on the Trailer. Visually it looks awesome, and the cast they have assembled appears fantastic.
Their musical selection was...um, not something I felt fit Dune at all. A lot of the scenes and action looks very Marvel-esque/Avengers-ey, which I thought was a weird route to take (though if its done well that's ok). The obvious changing of some language (e.g. "Crusade" instead of "Jihad") is a bit concerning about staying true to the source material, so we'll see how that turns out.
@Gorgon, no it’s not a Millenial thing or a Marvel thing. It’s a natural reaction to the near-constant barrage of dark, joyless sci fi over the last 20 years. Yeah, Margel
Movies are lighter and more fun, but even our Star Trek is dour and depressing these days. Look at the John Carter adaptation, where the writer saddled an adventurous hero with dead-wife-and-kids angst. The big action scene is interspersed with this old timer punch-up hero crying over little graves. The whole genre has been affected by this trend. I completely understand someone mistaking Dune for yet another crapsack story due to that trailer.
Frank Herbert himself described the Butlerian Jihad as a “crusade against computers” so whether he really used the word “jihad” to mean something different from crusade is pretty questionable and I suspect all this smattering of Arabic and Arabic-esque terminology was more about adding some exoticism (and cultural/historical verisimilitude) to his work more so than some kind of importantly particular reference; kind of like how Zensunni doesn’t really work out to anything other than a strange phrase that tricks the mind into seeming familiar in a surprising way.
I'm going to push back on this argument that the trailer doesn't give any information - aware that by virtue of being born in 1986 and having seen parts of both the lynch version and the mini series while channel surfing, some may still consider me too knowledgeable about Dune to presume to know what true outsiders are getting from this trailer. I still think it covers the bases you need to cover in a teaser trailer for a movie coming out in 3+ months:
-We introduce our main character and that he has supernatural powers he does not fully understand, the ability to see the future is alluded to.
-By way of this, he is warned of a coming war
-We learn these powers are not without precident, and there are those who understand it and have a system of tests to weed out those who can't handle it.
-We are told the main character is inheriting power (too much, according to the ominous mentor voice)
-That power includes ruling others, he is part of a dynasty (an unworthy one, again according to the mentor)
-"My father rules an entire planet." ("He's losing it.")
-"He's getting a richer one." ("He'll lose that one too.")
-We're introduced to a world covered in desert (apparently quite wealthy) with people. The mentor names it Arakis and a Death Trap
-We see antagonists accompanied with a stinger chord ordering each other to 'kill them' - standard movie trailer bad guy introduction
-Main character laments that his family is being exterminated by said movie trailer bad guys
-Mentor asks main character how far he'll go to save himself (and unspoken, the things he cares about)
-Main character meets the girl from his visions - realizing he is on the path he was warned about
-Visual reel of potentially important characters and events, plus some of the existing completed FX shots
-"One day - the legend will be born. - All of civilization depends on it." Standard practice of splicing a longer dialogue line to describe the stakes in as over-the-top way possible.
-And we close with a line from the book (present in all other adaptions, right?) and a shot of the spice and the worm - to reassure those who would freak out and insist those parts had been cut out of the story because they weren't mentioned by name in the first trailer.
Honestly, it seems like a straightforward teaser - one that outlines the key points they're going to cover in the story - in fact I think it might give away a little too much to those who don't already know the story.
I always found “Zensunni” funny. I prefer to think it’s just a word that happens to sound like two ancient religions mashed together, because otherwise it makes about as much sense as “Wahabbuddhism” or “Voodoomormonism”. At least the Orange Catholic Bible was lacking context* enough for it to sound mysterious instead of silly.
I've listened to several people discussing the movie and I'm still not sure if it's supposed to be pronounced "Dyun" or "Doon" in English, as I'm frequently hearing both. Is this an US/Brit thing?
I’m not sure it breaks down that easily. When people are casually discussing the topological features, they often say doons. When discussing the book (and not wanting it to sound like “Doom”) or adding gravitas to the word, it is often (over)enunciated “Dyunes”. But that might be my regional thing.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: @Gorgon, no it’s not a Millenial thing or a Marvel thing. It’s a natural reaction to the near-constant barrage of dark, joyless sci fi over the last 20 years. Yeah, Margel
Movies are lighter and more fun, but even our Star Trek is dour and depressing these days. Look at the John Carter adaptation, where the writer saddled an adventurous hero with dead-wife-and-kids angst. The big action scene is interspersed with this old timer punch-up hero crying over little graves. The whole genre has been affected by this trend. I completely understand someone mistaking Dune for yet another crapsack story due to that trailer.
John Carter and the most recent ST movies are dark and joyless? Um, ok. Those films were many things, but those particular adjectives don't come to mind.
How many of the great sci-fi books were 'funny'? Dune, 1984, Neuromancer, Frankenstein, The Martian Chronicles, Fahrenheit 451, Foundation, etc.? There's a lot of darkness in the story of Dune.
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Manchu wrote: Frank Herbert himself described the Butlerian Jihad as a “crusade against computers” so whether he really used the word “jihad” to mean something different from crusade is pretty questionable and I suspect all this smattering of Arabic and Arabic-esque terminology was more about adding some exoticism (and cultural/historical verisimilitude) to his work more so than some kind of importantly particular reference; kind of like how Zensunni doesn’t really work out to anything other than a strange phrase that tricks the mind into seeming familiar in a surprising way.
This exactly. He chose it in 1965 as an exotic word for 'religious war'. Today that word has more baggage, and it makes sense to stay away from it so that audiences don't think you're making other connections and messages.
Herbert did like to work tiny fragments of Islam into his works sometimes, which dates it a little. My favorite example is when Mohammed is summoned from the dead by the protagonist of The God Makers to discuss the nature of miracles. Their conversation was the most interesting part of the book!
Denis: "Christmas...2020...classic sci-fi. Your time has come! A movie is coming - OUR movie...and when arrives it will shake Hollywood! Marvel? We come for you! We come for you!"
Denis(again...): "LONG LIVE THE FANBOYS!"
Fanboys: "LONG LIVE THE FANBOYS!"
<sounds of rabid sci-fi geeks storming theatres, stampeding attendants giving advice about covid> Laaa-laaaaaaa-LLLLAAAAAAAAAA-LAAAAAAA!!!
Denis: "Christmas...2020...classic sci-fi. Your time has come! A movie is coming - OUR movie...and when arrives it will shake Hollywood! Marvel? We come for you! We come for you!"
Denis(again...): "LONG LIVE THE FANBOYS!"
Fanboys: "LONG LIVE THE FANBOYS!"
<sounds of rabid sci-fi geeks storming theatres, stampeding attendants giving advice about covid> Laaa-laaaaaaa-LLLLAAAAAAAAAA-LAAAAAAA!!!
Shouldn't that be "MUAD'DIB! MUAD'DIB!" ?
Not a day has passed and someone already made this:
Saw this in an article about the attention to detail.
Passage from the book:
“Paul’s attention went to the carved headboard of his bed — a false headboard attached to the wall and concealing the controls for his room’s functions. A leaping fish had been shaped on the wood with thick brown waves beneath it. He knew if he pushed the fish’s visible eye that would turn on the room’s suspensor lamps. One of the waves, when twisted, controlled ventilation. Another changed the temperature.”
Denis: "Christmas...2020...classic sci-fi. Your time has come! A movie is coming - OUR movie...and when arrives it will shake Hollywood! Marvel? We come for you! We come for you!"
Denis(again...): "LONG LIVE THE FANBOYS!"
Fanboys: "LONG LIVE THE FANBOYS!"
<sounds of rabid sci-fi geeks storming theatres, stampeding attendants giving advice about covid> Laaa-laaaaaaa-LLLLAAAAAAAAAA-LAAAAAAA!!!
Shouldn't that be "MUAD'DIB! MUAD'DIB!" ?
Not a day has passed and someone already made this:
Denis: "Christmas...2020...classic sci-fi. Your time has come! A movie is coming - OUR movie...and when arrives it will shake Hollywood! Marvel? We come for you! We come for you!"
Denis(again...): "LONG LIVE THE FANBOYS!"
Fanboys: "LONG LIVE THE FANBOYS!"
<sounds of rabid sci-fi geeks storming theatres, stampeding attendants giving advice about covid> Laaa-laaaaaaa-LLLLAAAAAAAAAA-LAAAAAAA!!!
Shouldn't that be "MUAD'DIB! MUAD'DIB!" ?
Not a day has passed and someone already made this:
Captain Joystick wrote: Serious question to answer the joke question: they were added to the 80s film for some crazy reason, weren't they?
Possibly. Lynch took a lot of liberties with things. I do think the heart plugs were an amazing addition, but am probably in the minority there. I feel like Lynch does add some things in to his work now for no reason (Twin Peaks Hawk oven mitts scene from s1 is one he admitted to), but I don't know if he was doing that earlier in his career.
I enjoyed a lot of what he added to the movie. It had a lot more flavor than a straight adaptation would have, and helped me visualize the book in a way that made it stand out even more from all of the similar sci-fi stories that had been published concurrently with Dune.
gorgon wrote: Saw this in an article about the attention to detail.
Passage from the book:
“Paul’s attention went to the carved headboard of his bed — a false headboard attached to the wall and concealing the controls for his room’s functions. A leaping fish had been shaped on the wood with thick brown waves beneath it. He knew if he pushed the fish’s visible eye that would turn on the room’s suspensor lamps. One of the waves, when twisted, controlled ventilation. Another changed the temperature.”
From the trailer:
Spoiler:
That kind of attention to detail is always awesome to see! That's part of what made the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and even The Hobbit trilogy to a lesser degree, something really special. Little stuff that just looks like it jumped right out of the book and onto the screen.
Esmer wrote: I've listened to several people discussing the movie and I'm still not sure if it's supposed to be pronounced "Dyun" or "Doon" in English, as I'm frequently hearing both. Is this an US/Brit thing?
For 99.9% of the book, it's pronounced 'Arrakis'...
I have no idea why the book was called 'Dune' since that name is only used right at the start of the book, in the bit that explains that Arrakis is informally known as Dune. Nobody ever actually calls it that.
But yes, outside of the US, the word is generally pronounced 'Dyoon', although Herbert (an American) used the common US pronunciation.
one flaw in the DDL version was the fact people looked too good in it. They were guerrilla fighters on a desert planet and everyone usually looked expertly coiffed and made up as if they'd just stepped out of a salon.
Ok, some of the background characters looked properly dry and dusty, but not the stars
That's one thing the SFC did right. I could believe that their paul atraedies was a guerrilla leader, he looked the part. The paul in the DDL movie looked like he spent more time getting his skin moisturized that fighting.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: They should have their entire faces covered on the surface, except their eyes. Movies have to take some liberties.
What you just typed reminded me of some movie trivia i'll share here.
When cameron made "the abyss" he had the issue of the actor's faces being visible in scuba gear since so much was filmed underwater. He conceived of and had people create a full face revealing scuba mask that was safe and effective in actual underwater settings.
His tech team also invented a way to safely fill scuba tanks underwater while in use to speed up filming.
Cameron asked the navy for advisors and they sent two experts to help him with getting things at least passably close to right, they were so impressed with the diving technology created for the movie, which the navy did not have, they asked for the blueprints. Cameron did them one better and sent them home with the actual working equipment and the creator's contact info. The navy was interested in both designs for underwater operations.
Thats interesting to read about Cameron. I know he is really into his deep water exploration, I had read that at one point he held the record for the furthest depth reached underwater by a manned submersible, using some custom built submarine.
I don't know if stuff like that is why we are still waiting for Avatar 2 !
While casting someone who is literally named Leto as a Harkonnen could be worth it simply for the lol factor, and while Jared certainly has the touch of otherworldly haughtiness suited for the role of Feyd, he is simply too old.
He's older than Jason Isaacs and twice Chalament's age.
I adore the sci fi channel version. I recognise there are various issues with it that would probably put a lot of people off but I love the whole half-play/half-film setup of it and Ian McNeice as the Baron is one of my favourite performances of all time.
Even with the new trailer, the whole time I was thinking of the sci fi channel opening.
One thing that I already like more in both the Lynch and the SyFy version are the colors and the baroque feeling of the sets and costumes. The new movie seems to consist mainly of different shades of grey, white and beige. Which I guess is fitting for Arrakis but not so much Imperial society as a whole. The uniforms also seem to be designed with much more practicality in mind than the other version's Harkonnen uniforms both of which went out their way to ramp up the bad guy factor.
Spoiler:
Altough the 2020 Harkonnens still look comically evil out of uniform.
The miniseries handled various aspects of the story much better overall IMO. And yeah, that was a MUCH better rendition of the Baron. Of course, the miniseries creators still had trouble understanding that the Kwisatz Haderach CAN'T MAKE WATER SPRING FORTH.
As I've said, there aren't many bigger Dune or David Lynch fans than me. But I don't think it's a good movie...at all, lol. And it's not just because of the studio.
Regarding Feyd...I dunno, doesn't seem like it's that hard of a casting job. Just need a good young actor that can project some charisma and menace. Sting was fun stunt casting, but he wasn't a very good actor.
I am beginning to think that Dune is unfilmable while doing it's source material justice.
The new trailer looks great and I WILL watch this. But Dune is full of iconic dialog that when said out loud is just ridiculous. Comics have the same issue. Lines in the books that read as awesome and incredible that when people try to translate them as dialog in film and games i just.... terrible. I think this movie is going to have some crazy cringy moments that just take you right out of the movie.
Lance845 wrote: I am beginning to think that Dune is unfilmable while doing it's source material justice.
The new trailer looks great and I WILL watch this. But Dune is full of iconic dialog that when said out loud is just ridiculous. Comics have the same issue. Lines in the books that read as awesome and incredible that when people try to translate them as dialog in film and games i just.... terrible. I think this movie is going to have some crazy cringy moments that just take you right out of the movie.
The dialogue is usually in a pretty foreign register, which isn't surprising given the setting, and there are very many passages where everything stops so that characters can ponder a situation, think about their past and future, or analyze minute facial expressions and subtle word choices in order to determine someone's true intentions. It's great reading, though.
gorgon wrote: The miniseries handled various aspects of the story much better overall IMO. And yeah, that was a MUCH better rendition of the Baron. Of course, the miniseries creators still had trouble understanding that the Kwisatz Haderach CAN'T MAKE WATER SPRING FORTH.
The bit at 4:00 looks like he's having a slash, especially with the expression on his face; "aaaaahhhhh...."
Lance845 wrote: I am beginning to think that Dune is unfilmable while doing it's source material justice.
The new trailer looks great and I WILL watch this. But Dune is full of iconic dialog that when said out loud is just ridiculous. Comics have the same issue. Lines in the books that read as awesome and incredible that when people try to translate them as dialog in film and games i just.... terrible. I think this movie is going to have some crazy cringy moments that just take you right out of the movie.
A lot of the same stuff could be said for LOTR though, and that worked out. The dialogue in those books is about as non-naturalistic as it gets. So they changed it.
Is there a Gurney in this? I see pretty much everyone else in the trailer, but no one I can identify as Gurney, though a _lot_ of Duncan (especially given that his appearances in Dune are few and relatively trivial compared to later books)
I'm wondering if they combined the two roles (as they're sort of redundant), or if its just about adding 'star power' to the trailer.
IMO not too many current actors do grizzled better than Brolin, and Gurney is a grizzled kind of guy. Patrick Stewart always seemed too aristocratic to me. The actor in the miniseries was a solid fit.
Lance845 wrote: I am beginning to think that Dune is unfilmable while doing it's source material justice.
The new trailer looks great and I WILL watch this. But Dune is full of iconic dialog that when said out loud is just ridiculous. Comics have the same issue. Lines in the books that read as awesome and incredible that when people try to translate them as dialog in film and games i just.... terrible. I think this movie is going to have some crazy cringy moments that just take you right out of the movie.
A lot of the same stuff could be said for LOTR though, and that worked out. The dialogue in those books is about as non-naturalistic as it gets. So they changed it.
Yeah but I wouldn't say any of the dialog in LotR is iconic like it is in Dune. Fear is the mind killer." "The spice must flow." "My name is a killing word." I don't think anyone can say "My name is a killing word." and be taken seriously. Unless you are talking about that scene from venture brothers.
gorgon wrote: IMO not too many current actors do grizzled better than Brolin, and Gurney is a grizzled kind of guy. Patrick Stewart always seemed too aristocratic to me. The actor in the miniseries was a solid fit.
I would have liked Mickey Rourke as Gurney, in regards to being "an ugly lump of a man"
Lance845 wrote: I am beginning to think that Dune is unfilmable while doing it's source material justice.
The new trailer looks great and I WILL watch this. But Dune is full of iconic dialog that when said out loud is just ridiculous. Comics have the same issue. Lines in the books that read as awesome and incredible that when people try to translate them as dialog in film and games i just.... terrible. I think this movie is going to have some crazy cringy moments that just take you right out of the movie.
A lot of the same stuff could be said for LOTR though, and that worked out. The dialogue in those books is about as non-naturalistic as it gets. So they changed it.
Yeah but I wouldn't say any of the dialog in LotR is iconic like it is in Dune. Fear is the mind killer." "The spice must flow." "My name is a killing word." I don't think anyone can say "My name is a killing word." and be taken seriously. Unless you are talking about that scene from venture brothers.
"What is Brock doing?!"
"Maybe he's killing them with words?"
"Maybe his name is a killing word?!"
That line is from the Lynch film.
IIRC, the line from the novel is "My name has become a killing word", after Paul sees Fremen shouting his name as they kill Harkonnens. Don't really see the big deal with that, but YMMV.
gorgon wrote: IMO not too many current actors do grizzled better than Brolin, and Gurney is a grizzled kind of guy. Patrick Stewart always seemed too aristocratic to me. The actor in the miniseries was a solid fit.
I would have liked Mickey Rourke as Gurney, in regards to being "an ugly lump of a man"
gorgon wrote: IMO not too many current actors do grizzled better than Brolin, and Gurney is a grizzled kind of guy. Patrick Stewart always seemed too aristocratic to me. The actor in the miniseries was a solid fit.
I would have liked Mickey Rourke as Gurney, in regards to being "an ugly lump of a man"
gorgon wrote: IMO not too many current actors do grizzled better than Brolin, and Gurney is a grizzled kind of guy. Patrick Stewart always seemed too aristocratic to me. The actor in the miniseries was a solid fit.
I would have liked Mickey Rourke as Gurney, in regards to being "an ugly lump of a man"
You may or may not be right about its success. But is it a millennial thing to demand that every film be light and humorous?
Nobody was suggesting that every movie has to be light and humourous, I was suggesting that dry and dark sci fi specifically might not do well with mainstream audiences. If you look at a list of the highest grossing sci fi films, you get quite a way down the list before you hit anything particularly serious.
Hey all, I'm re-reading Dune (first time since high school) and am a bit confused as to how people are treating the Kynes character - isn't he Liet Kynes, Pardot Kynes's son? But all the offworlders are treating him like he "went native," when Liet Kynes is specifically the child of Pardot Kynes and a Fremen. Did I miss something? I read the Appendix before the novel, and I remember from reading in high school that he has a scene where, delirious, he talks to the shade of his father, the previous planetologist. Do people not know that Liet Kynes took over for his father? Or am I mistaken, and this has been Pardot Kynes his whole time, and we just never meet his son?
As written, the character makes more sense as an offworlder gone native, especially the way he carries imperial authority.
Also, for how important a character he would end up being, I'm surprised how little we see Duncan Idaho; he's only in three scenes, one of which he's blackout drunk. Strange that he would go on to be the only character in all six books.
Don Qui Hotep wrote: Hey all, I'm re-reading Dune (first time since high school) and am a bit confused as to how people are treating the Kynes character - isn't he Liet Kynes, Pardot Kynes's son? But all the offworlders are treating him like he "went native," when Liet Kynes is specifically the child of Pardot Kynes and a Fremen. Did I miss something? I read the Appendix before the novel, and I remember from reading in high school that he has a scene where, delirious, he talks to the shade of his father, the previous planetologist. Do people not know that Liet Kynes took over for his father? Or am I mistaken, and this has been Pardot Kynes his whole time, and we just never meet his son?
That's... not particularly weird. Especially since everyone else may not know his mother was a Fremen (just a 'native of Arrakis' if they even know (or care) about that).
But as an Imperial servant descended from an Imperial servant, 'going native,' regardless of the other side of his heritage, would be taken poorly. Particularly in a patriarchal society (which the Imperial society (or at least the court) generally seems to be. At least there is an emphasis on bloodlines, sons and proper marriages. Paul was ordered to be a girl, but Jessica ignored her superiors gave into what Leto wanted (a son) [And yes, she can explicitly control that]
Imagine a second-generation British colonial bureaucrat picking up the cultural norms and dress of India or Native Americans, and how a governing aristocrat (and his troops, spymaster, etc) would react to that.
Also, for how important a character he would end up being, I'm surprised how little we see Duncan Idaho; he's only in three scenes, one of which he's blackout drunk. Strange that he would go on to be the only character in all six books.
Yep. Duncan is almost completely irrelevant in Dune itself. Which makes casting Big Bad Superhero guy rather amusing to me, especially if they end up only doing Dune.
But
Spoiler:
his death and Paul's sense of obligation to the ghola because of that death
is important in Messiah. And what happens in that book
Spoiler:
the ghola awakening to the original's memories
is important to the Bene Tleilaxu (and others) and why he's important in future books.
Spoiler:
Duncan ends up being, essentially, what the Bene Gesserit expected/wanted Paul to be- a male counterpart to their own abilities, but without the trap of Paul's precognition. Except, of course, Duncan wasn't as controlled and ended up pointed in the wrong direction, with too many other influences
Personally, I never much cared for how Duncan became this big deal from Messiah onwards. I always found Gurney Halleck to be a much more interesting character.
I read a plot synopsis of all the books as I've only read Dune (many times) and the prequels (once). It gets weird, but good lord...
Spoiler:
The sequels get stupid. I don't like the ghola idea to begin with, but Duncan Idaho ghola #9891 turns into a superhuman with super speed and Erasmus is like 'I made you'. What was Herbert's son smoking?
Don Qui Hotep wrote: Hey all, I'm re-reading Dune (first time since high school) and am a bit confused as to how people are treating the Kynes character - isn't he Liet Kynes, Pardot Kynes's son? But all the offworlders are treating him like he "went native," when Liet Kynes is specifically the child of Pardot Kynes and a Fremen. Did I miss something? I read the Appendix before the novel, and I remember from reading in high school that he has a scene where, delirious, he talks to the shade of his father, the previous planetologist. Do people not know that Liet Kynes took over for his father? Or am I mistaken, and this has been Pardot Kynes his whole time, and we just never meet his son?
That's... not particularly weird. Especially since everyone else may not know his mother was a Fremen (just a 'native of Arrakis' if they even know (or care) about that).
But as an Imperial servant descended from an Imperial servant, 'going native,' regardless of the other side of his heritage, would be taken poorly. Particularly in a patriarchal society (which the Imperial society (or at least the court) generally seems to be. At least there is an emphasis on bloodlines, sons and proper marriages. Paul was ordered to be a girl, but Jessica ignored her superiors gave into what Leto wanted (a son) [And yes, she can explicitly control that]
Imagine a second-generation British colonial bureaucrat picking up the cultural norms and dress of India or Native Americans, and how a governing aristocrat (and his troops, spymaster, etc) would react to that.Also, for how important a character he would end up being, I'm surprised how little we see Duncan Idaho; he's only in three scenes, one of which he's blackout drunk. Strange that he would go on to be the only character in all six books.
That's a good point; I think the dissonance for me is that people act surprised that a person born on Arrakis, with one Fremen parent, and who grew up around Fremen would act like a Fremen from time to time. But you're right when considering the expectations built into the colonial worldview.
Esmer wrote: Personally, I never much cared for how Duncan became this big deal from Messiah onwards. I always found Gurney Halleck to be a much more interesting character.
I agree, although I think that Frank Herbert never had any skill writing lyrics. I choose to believe that they were just translated from Gallach, and that's why they never rhyme, or have any discernible meter or rhythm.
Manchu wrote: Is L-K’s half Fremen parentage mentioned in the first novel? Or is that from Brian Herbert and KJA’s work?
It's in the first Appendix at the end of the book. I think reading the appendices before the novel is a good idea; this is the only issue that get's confused (at least for me). I kind of got the sense that all the off-worlders thought that Liet Kynes was Pardot Kynes, especially given that his father applied for the imperial post in his name. It's on page 500 of the Ace Books paperback. But you're right that in the novel itself there's no description of Kynes, they never mention his age, or even his first name - only the Fremen call him Liet.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait a mo - just got to the part where Rabban and the Baron are talking about Kynes (pg 240 in the Ace paperback).
"Except for one thing, Uncle: the planetologist, Kynes... he's the Emperor's man, m'Lord. He can come and go as he pleases. And he's very close to the Fremen ... married one."
So not "he is half Fremen and had a Fremen mother." So it was Pardot Kynes? Or does nobody know that Liet Kynes is half-Fremen?
I just skipped ahead to see. Page 271. "I am Liet-Kynes... His Imperial Majesty's Planetologist." Is Liet-Kynes different from Liet Kynes? Next page: the voice of his father. "his father long dead, killed in the cave-in at Plaster Basin." And the quote about consequences. So that's Pardot Kynes.
So the planetologist was in fact Liet Kynes the whole time. So why does nobody mention that he's a Fremen? Either 1) Pardot Kynes kept the ancestry secret, which is a known practice throughout the novel; or 2) everyone thinks that Liet Kynes is Pardot Kynes. Because no one comments on the fact that his father was also a planetologist.
Third option: I'm a dum-dum and no one else is having this problem.
Houses Harkonnen and Atreides know the Imperial Planetologist as “Kynes” and “Dr. Kynes.” Notably, they do not seem to know his given name (much less his parentage). The only thing they know about him, it seems, is something they consider quite remarkable: unlike anyone else connected to the wider Imperium, Dr. Kynes alone has close contact with the Fremen. Certainly, they had no idea that Kynes was the leader of the Fremen. Meanwhile, the Atreides hear of a political/religious figure among the Fremen called “Liet.” They later learn that “Liet” and “Kynes” are the same, hence the hyphenated term “Liet-Kynes.” This is complicated by the apparent use of “Liet” as a given name for Dr. Kynes. It’s not clear if “Liet” is a Fremen title or a Fremen name (either like Muad’Dib or like Usul) or if Liet is not a Fremen word at all (e.g., no more so than Kynes). Based on the Brian Herbert/KJA prequel novels, “Liet” appears to be his given name.
Manchu wrote: Houses Harkonnen and Atreides know the Imperial Planetologist as “Kynes” and “Dr. Kynes.” Notably, they do not seem to know his given name (much less his parentage). The only thing they know about him, it seems, is something they consider quite remarkable: unlike anyone else connected to the wider Imperium, Dr. Kynes alone has close contact with the Fremen. Certainly, they had no idea that Kynes was the leader of the Fremen. Meanwhile, the Atreides hear of a political/religious figure among the Fremen called “Liet.” They later learn that “Liet” and “Kynes” are the same, hence the hyphenated term “Liet-Kynes.” This is complicated by the apparent use of “Liet” as a given name for Dr. Kynes. It’s not clear if “Liet” is a Fremen title or a Fremen name (either like Muad’Dib or like Usul) or if Liet is not a Fremen word at all (e.g., no more so than Kynes). Based on the Brian Herbert/KJA prequel novels, “Liet” appears to be his given name.
At the moment the reading that makes the most sense to me is that Pardot Kynes was able to navigate the bureaucracy to get his son the same position as planetologist, to help keep the work secret, and the confusion about which Kynes is which is deliberately cultivated.
EDIT: Just to be clear, what I was confused about was whether the Kynes character that appears in Dune is Pardot Kynes or Liet Kynes.
Manchu wrote: It is Liet. In his dying moments, he has a vision of his father Pardot.
Right, that's what I got to eventually. Given that there's precedent for obscuring ancestry in this feudal society, it makes sense that no one would comment on his Fremen mother, and would be confused why he "went native" rather than, y'know, being born on Arrakis and growing up among the Fremen. It seems like there might be some confusion among the offworlders as to which Kynes is which though, because they never mention that his father was also a planetologist. Anyway. Not that big a deal. I really liked the character. Wish he got a little more screen time.
I think the issue is, no one thinks the ecology of Arrakis or the Fremen matter. So it’s not that (or only that, or primarily that) Pardot Kynes is obfuscating about himself and his findings. Rather, neither House Harkonnen nor the Emperor care. That’s the real reason “going native” is noteworthy but ultimately not something anyone bothers to look into.
House Harkonan really doesn't care about anything but the profits they can get from the world. The Fremen are wildmen to be crushed and killed if they get in the way and that's about it.
The Empire also has no care for them. They don't wield great power nor influence, they are just nameless nomads. Sure they can survive in the depths of the deserts, but the Empire doesn't really care about that, they don't want to live in the Desert, they want to live in cities with water shipped in and with vast profits and the power of the spice.
Personally the only odd thing is that the Empire appears to have little understanding about the Worm and Spice life cycle.
That said in the sequel book you can see that one thing Paul tries to do is not just make the Empire care about Fremen and Dune, but also make the Femen care about life outside of Dune. That is, in part, I think why he makes them go on a crusade to other worlds. Conquering a powerbase,but also an influence base to make them care about life outside. Because without that the Fremen would be happy to burn every starport and ship and people from the face of the planet. They have no need of outside forces and have no interest in the Galaxy at large, which is why his campaign is so effective at disrupting the spice flow. The Fremen, in control of the world, could shut down all spice production and export.
Overread wrote: Personally the only odd thing is that the Empire appears to have little understanding about the Worm and Spice life cycle.
Nah, they think spice is a mineral resource like any other. There’s no reason to suspect any connection to the worms.
Which is somewhat odd when you consider that they've been harvesting it for generations and the Worms are about the only major life form on the planet barring a few nomads in tight black suits. Then again it wasn't that long ago that we didn't believe in duckbilled platypus and the idea of humans having any genetic relation to any other creature was a horrific suggestion.
That's one thing that struck me as very odd, with nobody suspecting a connection between worms and spice. Just knowing about what earthworms do for our own soil, I immediately suspected "oh, the spice must be worm poop".
Keeping in mind the society of Dune as it was portrayed.
Up until House Atreides, it's not that nobody suspected, it's that nobody cared.
One of Herbert's grand themes of the story is the importance of ecology and caring for it, and its impact not doing so. As part of that concept, having characters and institutions that simple don't is entirely within reason.
warboss wrote: It's been decades since I read the original book. Is there a time jump when he goes into the desert to live/train with the Fremen?
Yep. Not terribly long, but even for certain things to happen.
And to skip a bit to race to the climax without another 100+ pages
I have no idea how accurate the rumor was but supposedly the movie will end with Paul joining the Fremen in the desert with the second movie (if it ever happens) completing the first book. If there is an extended delay, I figure that's probably as good a point as any.
warboss wrote: It's been decades since I read the original book. Is there a time jump when he goes into the desert to live/train with the Fremen?
Yep. Not terribly long, but even for certain things to happen.
And to skip a bit to race to the climax without another 100+ pages
I have no idea how accurate the rumor was but supposedly the movie will end with Paul joining the Fremen in the desert with the second movie (if it ever happens) completing the first book. If there is an extended delay, I figure that's probably as good a point as any.
Eh. The problem with pausing there is there honestly isn't much left. The time skip is 362 pages in. The end of the book is 489. And big chunk (~40pp) of that is Gurney having series of personal crises and objections.
Unless they pad it out like its The Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies, part 2 will be really brief.
warboss wrote: It's been decades since I read the original book. Is there a time jump when he goes into the desert to live/train with the Fremen?
Sure, take all the fun out of my hyperbole.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If they pad it out like the Hobbit, maybe we’ll find out that Paul’s first child was also preborn, and just noped right out of that Golden Path business. We can have a Peter Jackson scene where he and a Sardaukar just stare at each other for five minutes. Then Chani pole-vaults I to the center of a ring of soldiers trained in the Waiting-your-turn Way for a slow-mo, sad-music wire-fu beat down.
Am not surprised at all. If takings are down 90% (according to an article I read) then any of these big budget releases are going to be a financial shotgun blast to the foot for the production companies if they release them at the moment.
Just hard luck for the fans in countries where they have Covid under control and this must be frustrating.
The question is now, in the UK at least, whether there will be any cinemas to play the films given the news that Cineworld is going to close. I would have thought it would have made sense to furlough the staff in those venues for 6 months or at least until some vaccine or better treatment was available and viewers started returning in greater numbers, but obviously it's in the same position as the rest of the arts where the government is willing to let those institutions just go bankrupt in the meantime. I assume some company or other will step in and buy the business up cheap sometime next year.
Cineworld has just mothballed rather than closed completely (although that could still come).
Does anyone know, had they filmed the footage for the second half of Dune? That’s quite common these days, as a significant chunk of production (50%+?) is in editing and post production. Would be interesting if they have, because you could get both halves released in short order next year.
They didn't film the second half of the book, but they did do "additional shooting" that wrapped up in august. This additional stuff was originally meant to be filmed right around when coronavirus became a thing. I kinda wish they would take a leap of faith and film the second half starting next year. But I doubt they will, it's just wishful thinking. It'll probably be 3-4 years before we see a part 2, assuming this first movie doesn't lose a ton of money.
The second half of the book is shorter, but it covers a greater span of time and events within it are sped up. There's a lot of "training montage" inter spaced with major events. In the Lynch film they even sped up this segment and you really feel it; there's ample space to show Fremen starting their rebellion, fighting back and starting to really make an impact all without feeling like you're padding things out. If anything it could, if well written, add depth to a segment of the book that is actually lacking.
Plus there's a slew of major epic battles and events. Just the end battle alone can be a major chunk of time.
Christopher Nolan’s “Tenet” willed itself past the $300 million mark globally this weekend even as the overall domestic box office appeared to be on the verge of collapse.
I'm totally fine with them delaying movies until a time where they're more profitable for them as long as they're not lobbying for a special handout from taxpayers for such a decidedly nonessential industry. The pandemic and its consequences aren't under the control of the movie industry but choosing to make no money now instead of just significantly less money in return for potentially more money later definitely is a choice.
If they pad it out like the Hobbit, maybe we’ll find out that Paul’s first child was also preborn, and just noped right out of that Golden Path business. We can have a Peter Jackson scene where he and a Sardaukar just stare at each other for five minutes. Then Chani pole-vaults I to the center of a ring of soldiers trained in the Waiting-your-turn Way for a slow-mo, sad-music wire-fu beat down.
Oooo... Maybe they can incorporate a buding romance between a helmeted nameless Sardaukar and a Fremen who meet in battle but instantly fall in love instead! Kind of like that fan favorite 40k romance for the ages between an eldar warlock and Vindicare.
That makes too much sense. When they finally bring their faces close for that will-they-kiss tension, the camera needs to pan away to the preborn baby making the “excellent” hand gesture.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ooh, and they can give Duncan Idaho a musical number about The Best Things in Life. Things like, you can only die once. Never outliving one’s purpose. Values never change.
They can sneak in some Buffy lyrics, because why not?
“...Knowing that it ends. Well, that depends. On if they let you goooooo...”
Ooh, and they can give Duncan Idaho a musical number about The Best Things in Life.
Only if they combine it with a Dirty Dancing style shield practice scene with Paul. I think the singing in the rain musical number by him later in Fremen garb just doesn't fit the lore though.
Give him a “Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious” song made entirely of Fremen and Bene Gesserit words. Bonus points if they find a rhyme for “chaumurky”.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Dirty Dancing number needs to segue into Flashdance’s “he’s a maniac”.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Give him a “Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious” song made entirely of Fremen and Bene Gesserit words. Bonus points if they find a rhyme for “chaumurky”.
If that was a power word, it would crack the planet's crust upon its first utterance.
The Dirty Dancing number needs to segue into Flashdance’s “he’s a maniac”.
I dunno. That sounds more like a Harkonnen number.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Easy E wrote: It would have fit the end of the Lynch film....
Hollywood needs to mine threads like this for new content. They're missing out on billions I tell you... billions!!!
And with that I'll stop with the jokes even though this is all we'll likely have for most of the next 6 months regarding this film.
warboss wrote: I'm totally fine with them delaying movies until a time where they're more profitable for them as long as they're not lobbying for a special handout from taxpayers for such a decidedly nonessential industry. The pandemic and its consequences aren't under the control of the movie industry but choosing to make no money now instead of just significantly less money in return for potentially more money later definitely is a choice.
That is all true, although I was really looking forward to this picture and am pretty bummed about it. I assumed because The Invisible Man made a tidy profit by going straight to VOD then other movies would follow - but that's a bit naive, the budget for Invisible Man was only* $7 million. Your point is a good one; the bottom line has to make sense. Still a shame though when it gets in the way of creative people getting a chance to share their work, but that's a fairly old problem.
Absolutely. I think they as producers, stars as "talents", and we as customers need to adjust our own expectations for budgets including effects and salaries in this "new normal" until things rebound (if they ever do). I don't personally believe we'll ever get back to pre-COVID box office totals during the heyday of the MCU and it's not entirely the fault of the pandemic. I think the lockdown just accelerated the timetable with a switch to more home viewing via streaming. At least for me, though, there will always be a place in my heart for the cinema experience but I was year on year declining in my total number of films seen for the past decade (except for one outlier year where I had the Moviepass service). I fully admit though that a large part of that might be my own aging and may not translate to other demographics though.
Christopher Nolan’s “Tenet” willed itself past the $300 million mark globally this weekend even as the overall domestic box office appeared to be on the verge of collapse.
Theaters are screwed. They've done everything they can to make theaters safe -- and honestly probably HAVE mitigated a lot of the risk. But people just don't trust the virus or each other. There's nothing more that industry can do if people just don't trust the environment. And no studio is going to release blockbusters that need theater audiences to turn their expected profits.
warboss wrote: Absolutely. I think they as producers, stars as "talents", and we as customers need to adjust our own expectations for budgets including effects and salaries in this "new normal" until things rebound (if they ever do). I don't personally believe we'll ever get back to pre-COVID box office totals during the heyday of the MCU and it's not entirely the fault of the pandemic. I think the lockdown just accelerated the timetable with a switch to more home viewing via streaming. At least for me, though, there will always be a place in my heart for the cinema experience but I was year on year declining in my total number of films seen for the past decade (except for one outlier year where I had the Moviepass service). I fully admit though that a large part of that might be my own aging and may not translate to other demographics though.
All good points. Before quarantine I was finding theater going to be cost-prohibitive, and only made the effort for big fun movies. I agree that expectations have to be hedged; historically, when studios depend more and more on blockbusters to break even they eventually overextend themselves. The trick as I (a decidedly non-expert) see it is to release higher quality, lower budget movies. VOD can be hugely profitable; Invisible Man was a small character-driven horror movie that grossed $135 million. I know that's probably chump change for the industry, but in a world where a third of all humans are chronically malnourished, that's a hell of a lot of money. The challenge is probably finding the right price point where more people won't just pirate it, I suppose. I imagine that very soon movie theaters will all be art theaters, showing classing movies and indie art films that aren't available elsewhere.
Don Qui Hotep wrote: All good points. Before quarantine I was finding theater going to be cost-prohibitive, and only made the effort for big fun movies. I agree that expectations have to be hedged; historically, when studios depend more and more on blockbusters to break even they eventually overextend themselves. The trick as I (a decidedly non-expert) see it is to release higher quality, lower budget movies. VOD can be hugely profitable; Invisible Man was a small character-driven horror movie that grossed $135 million. I know that's probably chump change for the industry, but in a world where a third of all humans are chronically malnourished, that's a hell of a lot of money. The challenge is probably finding the right price point where more people won't just pirate it, I suppose. I imagine that very soon movie theaters will all be art theaters, showing classing movies and indie art films that aren't available elsewhere.
I agree. The two films that surprised me the most when I had the moviepass and was going every week or two to the theater (something that I hadn't done since my early 20's) were relatively low budget (Upgrade and Peppermint). I enjoyed those two relatively simple and unpretentious movies more than I did half the marvel and star wars blockbusters that both preceded and followed them. I'm not saying that those were perfect movies by any stretch (they were just good, not even great... just plain good) but they were better than films that cost 5x their budget. Honestly I don't know if they were technically profitable though and will have to look them up though but they surprised me the most. Heck, with streaming scifi shows being made for $8+ million per episode and looking good visually (even if the acting and script are frequently gak... cough *Picard* cough *STD* cough), I'd be fine with something that was 50% higher budget than a two hour version of that. Admittedly the math isn't that simple and the costs of things like sets are amoratized over several seasons so the relative cost for a feature film would be higher blah blah blah but my point stands. Keep marketing budgets and actor salaries reasonable upfront (with a higher backend if the movie exceeds expectations) or feth them and hire relative unknowns with less of an ego/expectation instead so that a scifi movie (my favorite genre) with a budget of $50mil ($600mil+ worldwide gross) is the new "blockbuster" (like the first Deadpool a few years ago).
Don Qui Hotep wrote: All good points. Before quarantine I was finding theater going to be cost-prohibitive, and only made the effort for big fun movies. I agree that expectations have to be hedged; historically, when studios depend more and more on blockbusters to break even they eventually overextend themselves. The trick as I (a decidedly non-expert) see it is to release higher quality, lower budget movies. VOD can be hugely profitable; Invisible Man was a small character-driven horror movie that grossed $135 million. I know that's probably chump change for the industry, but in a world where a third of all humans are chronically malnourished, that's a hell of a lot of money. The challenge is probably finding the right price point where more people won't just pirate it, I suppose. I imagine that very soon movie theaters will all be art theaters, showing classing movies and indie art films that aren't available elsewhere.
I agree. The two films that surprised me the most when I had the moviepass and was going every week or two to the theater (something that I hadn't done since my early 20's) were relatively low budget (Upgrade and Peppermint). I enjoyed those two relatively simple and unpretentious movies more than I did half the marvel and star wars blockbusters that both preceded and followed them. I'm not saying that those were perfect movies by any stretch (they were just good, not even great... just plain good) but they were better than films that cost 5x their budget. Honestly I don't know if they were technically profitable though and will have to look them up though but they surprised me the most. Heck, with streaming scifi shows being made for $8+ million per episode and looking good visually (even if the acting and script are frequently gak... cough *Picard* cough *STD* cough), I'd be fine with something that was 50% higher budget than a two hour version of that. Admittedly the math isn't that simple and the costs of things like sets are amoratized over several seasons so the relative cost for a feature film would be higher blah blah blah but my point stands. Keep marketing budgets and actor salaries reasonable upfront (with a higher backend if the movie exceeds expectations) or feth them and hire relative unknowns with less of an ego/expectation instead so that a scifi movie (my favorite genre) with a budget of $50mil ($600mil+ worldwide gross) is the new "blockbuster" (like the first Deadpool a few years ago).
Hardly impressive numbers but, using a 2.5x ratio, Upgrade was technically profitable before homevideo/streaming income.
Sounds like we got to get you into the studio system. I think Warboss Productions could quickly become the mark of quality!
In other news, having just finished re-reading Dune I'm back onto Dune Messiah. I posted a few pages ago that it was a rough read for me in high school and I didn't end up enjoying it. Fast forward to now and it's quite the reverse, but I'm starting to feel like Dune Messiah should have been the last act of Dune. One of the things that I really like in the series is how it turns the idea of classical heroism on its head, with Paul basically going from Skywalker to Vader. That's such an important turn and sets the tone for the rest of the series, which I think comes to a head in a great way in book four. Dune without Dune Messiah lets Paul off the hook a little bit, I think.
There are some books that are a tough read the first time you go through them. Gardens of the Moon - the first book in Malazan book of the Fallen - is a really great example. First time isn't impossible, but there's a lot of world terminology and theories and ideas that don't get fully explored until later in the book - some not until a book or two later. So the first time you go through it there's a lot of mysterious things happening that it can be hard to see the story for the lore and setting.
Second time is a breeze because you've a vague to good understanding of the different concepts being thrown at you which lets you far more easily focus on the story and characters. It makes for, in my view, an enjoyable first and second read of the book.
I probably wouldn’t have finished* Dune Messiah without massive spoilers and moral support from the YouTube channel Quinn’s Ideas. His timeline of Dune gave me enough cheese at the end to make the maze worthwhile. Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune are both great, but require one to get through Dune Messiah first.
*I enjoyed a lot of the book for what it was, especially all the oblique conversations loaded with jargon, but was still running out of momentum due to story and character-related issues.
Sounds like we got to get you into the studio system. I think Warboss Productions could quickly become the mark of quality!
My last (and only!) film experience was making Lego stop motion short films (<1 min) for school projects in the 1980's when my uncle would let me borrow his gigantic VHS camcorder. If ever I do break into the industry, I promise to make the best films ever at my budget of $5.00 USD!
I think you’re onto something with the reliance of cinemas on blockbuster “event“ films. We have a local independent cinema that does a lot of art house stuff, foreign films and also does themed events (sci-fi marathons, Halloween horror all-nighters, etc.) in addition to the latest films (which it generally shows a few weeks after mainstream release, which is great if you miss something). I’m really hoping they can survive this mess, but also I think it shows the other things you can do with a cinema.
I’ve long said that I wish there were more re-releases of classic films; through that place I’ve been fortunate enough to see Alien, Blade Runner, Top Gun and 2001 on the big screen, all of which were originally released well before I was of cinema going age (or born). I’d love to see a theatrical release of the LoTR special editions and big screen versions of some “big” TV (Band of Brothers, etc.) A season pass to a weekly showing of BoB could be a great way to get people in the screens and seeing what else is on offer.
Of course this requires the damn virus to go away, so that people can relax on an evening out...
Finished Dune Messiah last night, very happy that I decided to go back and revisit it; there's a lot of depth that rewards re-reading. About to start Children of Dune. I never ended up watching the mini-series, I think I'll check it out after I read the book.
Honestly the delay of the film more or less sucked the wind out of me in terms of my interest in anything Dune related. I'm going to have to just put it all in the back of my head until at least next summer and just forget about it. It sucks, and I knew it was coming but i've gotta put all that hype energy somewhere else.
I'm consoling myself with the thought that at least I'll get a chance to see it in the cinema if it is released next year, whereas there would have been no chance if it came out now.
Reading my way through the books again in the meantime (although agree it's going to be impossible to maintain the emotional intensity )
It's a better choice in the long run, return on investment is questionable now, but if they hold off and release just when people are back to feeling safe in crowds it could exceed even rosy expectations.
Apparently this movie is now due to release on HBO max streaming simultaneously with it's theatrical release in october 2021. I'm not sure how well that will turn out in terms of $. Even though this is their plan i'm not sure it will hold. They're doing the same thing with WW1984 and we'll have to see how that turns out.
I was looking forward to seeing it in the cinema, whenever that happened, but I guess I'll just have to sit and wait for Netflix to get it. Maybe I should get a bigger TV for the occasion...
It's not like I ever go to the cinema to watch films anymore, the last thing that I watched was, coincidentally, Bladerunner. Great film, just doomed to not make much money; I figured that Dune was going to be in the same category, because it's a bit niche, but hopefully it would have done well enough for part 2 to get made.
Thargrim wrote: Apparently this movie is now due to release on HBO max streaming simultaneously with it's theatrical release in october 2021. I'm not sure how well that will turn out in terms of $. Even though this is their plan i'm not sure it will hold. They're doing the same thing with WW1984 and we'll have to see how that turns out.
yes although isn't Wonder Woman coming out on Christmas Day?
Hopefully by October 2021 the worst of the virus will be behind us and cinemas will be busier once more.
And I don't know how much HBO Max means to people outside of the US?
Easy E wrote: I wonder why movie studios are trying to kill movie theatres? Do they cut into the bottom line too much?
It's everyone for themselves. Not enough life boats and this ain't the gentile Titanic, chummer!
In all seriousness, Hollywood has always been cutthroat and greedy but they've just had to pretend otherwise to a degree. The streaming wars exacerbated the situation but the pandemic has just brought it to a boil.
Corona has accelerated a pattern that was slowly establishing itself. Hollywood wasn't going to let Amazon and all those other upstarts win the streaming wars.
With cinemas forced closed it pushed Hollywood to make their streaming system come to the market faster and it will have a big lasting impact on the cinema experience and the relationship between film groups and cinemas.
Just like the streaming VS Blockbuster wars this will likely be very brutal.
Cinemas will likely adapt and survive in big areas by offering an experience you can't get a home; a social event and also by likely shifting form only showing the newest and latest to showing classics, theme weeks/months etc... Eg they'll do a sci-fi week and show a big new blockbuster alongside older films and such.
The Cinema doesn't actually need to show the latest, they just need to build enough of a draw to get bums on seats.
But it will change things and a good few will likely close down.
I've read some things about this online.
Some of it reads a little conspiracy theory, but also like, it's big business.... So, anything they do reads like a conspiracy theory.
Basically, the end game is "Warner Brothers Cinemas", as a result of the removal of the antitrust laws known as the "Paramount Consent Decrees" in August.
It's also why they basically don't care a jot about films like WW84 or Dune being available (or not) overseas...
Because that's not simply not a factor in the plan.
Kill the US cinema chains, found your own brand cinema as a replacement that only shows your movies, keep 100% of the profits.
Studios are sitting there with their ***** in their hands looking at a pile of content worth billions that they can't bring to market. They've tried through theaters but no one's going. We might not reach a decent level of herd immunity until next fall, and EVEN THEN it's not clear that people will return to theaters.
So they're just supposed to take the hit...indefinitely? D***s in hands? Forget about shareholders...what about stakeholders? There are jobs at stake at the studios also.
If WB/AT&T wanted to kill theaters, then they would have cut them out completely. This plan with HBO Max may start that ball rolling anyway, but at least they're hedging their bets. As Overread said, the future is pretty clear. They could have been a lot more cutthroat all through this pandemic.
I think once herd immunity/vaccinations are mainstream and the virus no longer requires social distancing then we can expect things to reboot quite quickly.
If anything there might even be a massive boom for things like cinemas - social things people have been denied. It's one thing to not want to go when its there; its another to be told you can't go and its forced closed.
Granted what we might see is cinema groups closing doors and new firms using investment/loans to re-open once things start picking up. I expect the same for many food outlets in key areas.
Recovery should be swift provided that the vaccine rolls out well; provided that track and trace remains in operation and the international scene sorts itself out.
As I understand it, they fully DID intend to cut theatres out completely, particularly with Wonder Woman, it was only with Patty Jenkins insistence that WW84 is going to theatres at all.
So, a more stepped approach, like you say, hedging their bets, seems to be their move.
And Lynch's film doesn't do a bad job with the story overall up to Paul and Jessica's escape. So yeah, some sequences will look familiar because...that's the story. 
