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is the tv show people talked about called "children of dune ?"

Children of Dune was also a Sci Fi Channel miniseries, the second one after Dune (the Sci Fi Channel miniseries).

Hey all, I'm re-reading Dune (first time since high school) and am a bit confused as to how people are treating the Kynes character - isn't he Liet Kynes, Pardot Kynes's son? But all the offworlders are treating him like he "went native," when Liet Kynes is specifically the child of Pardot Kynes and a Fremen. Did I miss something? I read the Appendix before the novel, and I remember from reading in high school that he has a scene where, delirious, he talks to the shade of his father, the previous planetologist. Do people not know that Liet Kynes took over for his father? Or am I mistaken, and this has been Pardot Kynes his whole time, and we just never meet his son?

As written, the character makes more sense as an offworlder gone native, especially the way he carries imperial authority.

Also, for how important a character he would end up being, I'm surprised how little we see Duncan Idaho; he's only in three scenes, one of which he's blackout drunk. Strange that he would go on to be the only character in all six books.

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:
Hey all, I'm re-reading Dune (first time since high school) and am a bit confused as to how people are treating the Kynes character - isn't he Liet Kynes, Pardot Kynes's son? But all the offworlders are treating him like he "went native," when Liet Kynes is specifically the child of Pardot Kynes and a Fremen. Did I miss something? I read the Appendix before the novel, and I remember from reading in high school that he has a scene where, delirious, he talks to the shade of his father, the previous planetologist. Do people not know that Liet Kynes took over for his father? Or am I mistaken, and this has been Pardot Kynes his whole time, and we just never meet his son?

That's... not particularly weird. Especially since everyone else may not know his mother was a Fremen (just a 'native of Arrakis' if they even know (or care) about that).
But as an Imperial servant descended from an Imperial servant, 'going native,' regardless of the other side of his heritage, would be taken poorly. Particularly in a patriarchal society (which the Imperial society (or at least the court) generally seems to be. At least there is an emphasis on bloodlines, sons and proper marriages. Paul was ordered to be a girl, but Jessica ignored her superiors gave into what Leto wanted (a son) [And yes, she can explicitly control that]

Imagine a second-generation British colonial bureaucrat picking up the cultural norms and dress of India or Native Americans, and how a governing aristocrat (and his troops, spymaster, etc) would react to that.

Also, for how important a character he would end up being, I'm surprised how little we see Duncan Idaho; he's only in three scenes, one of which he's blackout drunk. Strange that he would go on to be the only character in all six books.

Yep. Duncan is almost completely irrelevant in Dune itself. Which makes casting Big Bad Superhero guy rather amusing to me, especially if they end up only doing Dune.
But is important in Messiah. And what happens in that book is important to the Bene Tleilaxu (and others) and why he's important in future books.

Personally, I never much cared for how Duncan became this big deal from Messiah onwards. I always found Gurney Halleck to be a much more interesting character.

I read a plot synopsis of all the books as I've only read Dune (many times) and the prequels (once). It gets weird, but good lord...

Voss wrote:

 Don Qui Hotep wrote:
Hey all, I'm re-reading Dune (first time since high school) and am a bit confused as to how people are treating the Kynes character - isn't he Liet Kynes, Pardot Kynes's son? But all the offworlders are treating him like he "went native," when Liet Kynes is specifically the child of Pardot Kynes and a Fremen. Did I miss something? I read the Appendix before the novel, and I remember from reading in high school that he has a scene where, delirious, he talks to the shade of his father, the previous planetologist. Do people not know that Liet Kynes took over for his father? Or am I mistaken, and this has been Pardot Kynes his whole time, and we just never meet his son?

That's... not particularly weird. Especially since everyone else may not know his mother was a Fremen (just a 'native of Arrakis' if they even know (or care) about that).
But as an Imperial servant descended from an Imperial servant, 'going native,' regardless of the other side of his heritage, would be taken poorly. Particularly in a patriarchal society (which the Imperial society (or at least the court) generally seems to be. At least there is an emphasis on bloodlines, sons and proper marriages. Paul was ordered to be a girl, but Jessica ignored her superiors gave into what Leto wanted (a son) [And yes, she can explicitly control that]

Imagine a second-generation British colonial bureaucrat picking up the cultural norms and dress of India or Native Americans, and how a governing aristocrat (and his troops, spymaster, etc) would react to that.Also, for how important a character he would end up being, I'm surprised how little we see Duncan Idaho; he's only in three scenes, one of which he's blackout drunk. Strange that he would go on to be the only character in all six books.

That's a good point; I think the dissonance for me is that people act surprised that a person born on Arrakis, with one Fremen parent, and who grew up around Fremen would act like a Fremen from time to time. But you're right when considering the expectations built into the colonial worldview.

 Esmer wrote:
Personally, I never much cared for how Duncan became this big deal from Messiah onwards. I always found Gurney Halleck to be a much more interesting character.

I agree, although I think that Frank Herbert never had any skill writing lyrics. I choose to believe that they were just translated from Gallach, and that's why they never rhyme, or have any discernible meter or rhythm.

Is L-K’s half Fremen parentage mentioned in the first novel? Or is that from Brian Herbert and KJA’s work?

 Manchu wrote:
Is L-K’s half Fremen parentage mentioned in the first novel? Or is that from Brian Herbert and KJA’s work?

It's in the first Appendix at the end of the book. I think reading the appendices before the novel is a good idea; this is the only issue that get's confused (at least for me). I kind of got the sense that all the off-worlders thought that Liet Kynes was Pardot Kynes, especially given that his father applied for the imperial post in his name. It's on page 500 of the Ace Books paperback. But you're right that in the novel itself there's no description of Kynes, they never mention his age, or even his first name - only the Fremen call him Liet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait a mo - just got to the part where Rabban and the Baron are talking about Kynes (pg 240 in the Ace paperback).

"Except for one thing, Uncle: the planetologist, Kynes... he's the Emperor's man, m'Lord. He can come and go as he pleases. And he's very close to the Fremen ... married one."

So not "he is half Fremen and had a Fremen mother." So it was Pardot Kynes? Or does nobody know that Liet Kynes is half-Fremen?

I just skipped ahead to see. Page 271. "I am Liet-Kynes... His Imperial Majesty's Planetologist." Is Liet-Kynes different from Liet Kynes? Next page: the voice of his father. "his father long dead, killed in the cave-in at Plaster Basin." And the quote about consequences. So that's Pardot Kynes.

So the planetologist was in fact Liet Kynes the whole time. So why does nobody mention that he's a Fremen? Either 1) Pardot Kynes kept the ancestry secret, which is a known practice throughout the novel; or 2) everyone thinks that Liet Kynes is Pardot Kynes. Because no one comments on the fact that his father was also a planetologist.

Third option: I'm a dum-dum and no one else is having this problem.

Houses Harkonnen and Atreides know the Imperial Planetologist as “Kynes” and “Dr. Kynes.” Notably, they do not seem to know his given name (much less his parentage). The only thing they know about him, it seems, is something they consider quite remarkable: unlike anyone else connected to the wider Imperium, Dr. Kynes alone has close contact with the Fremen. Certainly, they had no idea that Kynes was the leader of the Fremen. Meanwhile, the Atreides hear of a political/religious figure among the Fremen called “Liet.” They later learn that “Liet” and “Kynes” are the same, hence the hyphenated term “Liet-Kynes.” This is complicated by the apparent use of “Liet” as a given name for Dr. Kynes. It’s not clear if “Liet” is a Fremen title or a Fremen name (either like Muad’Dib or like Usul) or if Liet is not a Fremen word at all (e.g., no more so than Kynes). Based on the Brian Herbert/KJA prequel novels, “Liet” appears to be his given name.

 Manchu wrote:
Houses Harkonnen and Atreides know the Imperial Planetologist as “Kynes” and “Dr. Kynes.” Notably, they do not seem to know his given name (much less his parentage). The only thing they know about him, it seems, is something they consider quite remarkable: unlike anyone else connected to the wider Imperium, Dr. Kynes alone has close contact with the Fremen. Certainly, they had no idea that Kynes was the leader of the Fremen. Meanwhile, the Atreides hear of a political/religious figure among the Fremen called “Liet.” They later learn that “Liet” and “Kynes” are the same, hence the hyphenated term “Liet-Kynes.” This is complicated by the apparent use of “Liet” as a given name for Dr. Kynes. It’s not clear if “Liet” is a Fremen title or a Fremen name (either like Muad’Dib or like Usul) or if Liet is not a Fremen word at all (e.g., no more so than Kynes). Based on the Brian Herbert/KJA prequel novels, “Liet” appears to be his given name.

At the moment the reading that makes the most sense to me is that Pardot Kynes was able to navigate the bureaucracy to get his son the same position as planetologist, to help keep the work secret, and the confusion about which Kynes is which is deliberately cultivated.

EDIT: Just to be clear, what I was confused about was whether the Kynes character that appears in Dune is Pardot Kynes or Liet Kynes.

It is Liet. In his dying moments, he has a vision of his father Pardot.

 Manchu wrote:
It is Liet. In his dying moments, he has a vision of his father Pardot.

Right, that's what I got to eventually. Given that there's precedent for obscuring ancestry in this feudal society, it makes sense that no one would comment on his Fremen mother, and would be confused why he "went native" rather than, y'know, being born on Arrakis and growing up among the Fremen. It seems like there might be some confusion among the offworlders as to which Kynes is which though, because they never mention that his father was also a planetologist. Anyway. Not that big a deal. I really liked the character. Wish he got a little more screen time.

I think the issue is, no one thinks the ecology of Arrakis or the Fremen matter. So it’s not that (or only that, or primarily that) Pardot Kynes is obfuscating about himself and his findings. Rather, neither House Harkonnen nor the Emperor care. That’s the real reason “going native” is noteworthy but ultimately not something anyone bothers to look into.

House Harkonan really doesn't care about anything but the profits they can get from the world. The Fremen are wildmen to be crushed and killed if they get in the way and that's about it.

The Empire also has no care for them. They don't wield great power nor influence, they are just nameless nomads. Sure they can survive in the depths of the deserts, but the Empire doesn't really care about that, they don't want to live in the Desert, they want to live in cities with water shipped in and with vast profits and the power of the spice.


Personally the only odd thing is that the Empire appears to have little understanding about the Worm and Spice life cycle.



That said in the sequel book you can see that one thing Paul tries to do is not just make the Empire care about Fremen and Dune, but also make the Femen care about life outside of Dune. That is, in part, I think why he makes them go on a crusade to other worlds. Conquering a powerbase,but also an influence base to make them care about life outside. Because without that the Fremen would be happy to burn every starport and ship and people from the face of the planet. They have no need of outside forces and have no interest in the Galaxy at large, which is why his campaign is so effective at disrupting the spice flow. The Fremen, in control of the world, could shut down all spice production and export.

 Overread wrote:
Personally the only odd thing is that the Empire appears to have little understanding about the Worm and Spice life cycle.

Nah, they think spice is a mineral resource like any other. There’s no reason to suspect any connection to the worms.

 Manchu wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Personally the only odd thing is that the Empire appears to have little understanding about the Worm and Spice life cycle.

Nah, they think spice is a mineral resource like any other. There’s no reason to suspect any connection to the worms.

Which is somewhat odd when you consider that they've been harvesting it for generations and the Worms are about the only major life form on the planet barring a few nomads in tight black suits. Then again it wasn't that long ago that we didn't believe in duckbilled platypus and the idea of humans having any genetic relation to any other creature was a horrific suggestion.

That's one thing that struck me as very odd, with nobody suspecting a connection between worms and spice. Just knowing about what earthworms do for our own soil, I immediately suspected "oh, the spice must be worm poop".

Keeping in mind the society of Dune as it was portrayed.

Up until House Atreides, it's not that nobody suspected, it's that nobody cared.

One of Herbert's grand themes of the story is the importance of ecology and caring for it, and its impact not doing so. As part of that concept, having characters and institutions that simple don't is entirely within reason.

That trailer has me pretty hyped for this movie, and Dune never really moved the needle for me before so I never got into it. Going in fresh!

So this movie has just been delayed until october 2021. Shouldn't come as a surprise...but ouch.

By the time they decide to film the second half of the movie, Timothee will be old enough to play The Preacher.

It's been decades since I read the original book. Is there a time jump when he goes into the desert to live/train with the Fremen?

 warboss wrote:
It's been decades since I read the original book. Is there a time jump when he goes into the desert to live/train with the Fremen?

Yep. Not terribly long, but enough for certain things to happen.

And to skip a bit to race to the climax without another 100+ pages

Voss wrote:

 warboss wrote:
It's been decades since I read the original book. Is there a time jump when he goes into the desert to live/train with the Fremen?

Yep. Not terribly long, but even for certain things to happen.

And to skip a bit to race to the climax without another 100+ pages

I have no idea how accurate the rumor was but supposedly the movie will end with Paul joining the Fremen in the desert with the second movie (if it ever happens) completing the first book. If there is an extended delay, I figure that's probably as good a point as any.

 warboss wrote:

Voss wrote:

 warboss wrote:
It's been decades since I read the original book. Is there a time jump when he goes into the desert to live/train with the Fremen?

Yep. Not terribly long, but even for certain things to happen.

And to skip a bit to race to the climax without another 100+ pages

I have no idea how accurate the rumor was but supposedly the movie will end with Paul joining the Fremen in the desert with the second movie (if it ever happens) completing the first book. If there is an extended delay, I figure that's probably as good a point as any.

Eh. The problem with pausing there is there honestly isn't much left. The time skip is 362 pages in. The end of the book is 489. And big chunk (~40pp) of that is Gurney having series of personal crises and objections.
Unless they pad it out like its The Hobbit: Battle of the Five Armies, part 2 will be really brief.

 warboss wrote:
It's been decades since I read the original book. Is there a time jump when he goes into the desert to live/train with the Fremen?

Sure, take all the fun out of my hyperbole.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If they pad it out like the Hobbit, maybe we’ll find out that Paul’s first child was also preborn, and just noped right out of that Golden Path business. We can have a Peter Jackson scene where he and a Sardaukar just stare at each other for five minutes. Then Chani pole-vaults I to the center of a ring of soldiers trained in the Waiting-your-turn Way for a slow-mo, sad-music wire-fu beat down.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Sure, take all the fun out of my hyperbole.

In a post-covid world of the rapidly evolving movie industry apocalypse, it may not be hyperbole.

Am not surprised at all. If takings are down 90% (according to an article I read) then any of these big budget releases are going to be a financial shotgun blast to the foot for the production companies if they release them at the moment.

Just hard luck for the fans in countries where they have Covid under control and this must be frustrating.

The question is now, in the UK at least, whether there will be any cinemas to play the films given the news that Cineworld is going to close. I would have thought it would have made sense to furlough the staff in those venues for 6 months or at least until some vaccine or better treatment was available and viewers started returning in greater numbers, but obviously it's in the same position as the rest of the arts where the government is willing to let those institutions just go bankrupt in the meantime. I assume some company or other will step in and buy the business up cheap sometime next year.