This is a shortsighted thing for you to have done, unless you're going to take the time to walk your coworker through the basics of building, painting, and playing. And "focusing on eBay" isn't a good way to introduce someone to any miniatures game as the prices range from stupidly low to stupidly high.
If he can get stuff for stupidly low...?
I like how you ignore the first part(because spoiler, I doubt he'll be willing to sit down and take the time to walk the coworker through the basics) and the other part("stupidly high").
Why not as he would be saving money.
Because it leads to the nonsense of people expecting stuff to be rockbottom prices, to the point where even independents are considered "overpriced".
I ignored them because they have no relevance on where he obtains his miniatures - he still has the same problem of learning the craft whether he purchases the items from ebay, GW or an independent.
If he purchases them for stupidly low then its no longer a question of stupidly high - and just isn't a problem. In that case he gets his item cheap. Full stop.
Lastly, there is no expectation if hes using EBay as people naturally use it to see if they can either obtain an item thats rare or discontinued or if they can get it cheaper. Just because hes new to Warhammer doesn't mean he is new to EBay. Its no big secret EBay is full of cheap, 2nd hand stuff. Unless its another independent trader on EBay selling cheaper, then its obvious to everyone using EBay for the last two decades that its going to cost more - first hand, should they buy it from a retailer - indie or big chain.
You would think that would be evident, but it's not. The number of times I've heard people in hobby shops complaining that they can't get stuff for the same as some eBay or Amazon seller is higher than it should be.
Kanluwen wrote: You would think that would be evident, but it's not. The number of times I've heard people in hobby shops complaining that they can't get stuff for the same as some eBay or Amazon seller is higher than it should be.
Well I'm still at odds with the logic, but I do have a respect for experience. Fair play to you, Kanluwen.
Kanluwen wrote: You would think that would be evident, but it's not. The number of times I've heard people in hobby shops complaining that they can't get stuff for the same as some eBay or Amazon seller is higher than it should be.
Well I'm still at odds with the logic, but I do have a respect for experience. Fair play to you, Kanluwen.
It might be a US thing, but it's...not great. The argument usually goes from eBay/Amazon to recasters pretty quick when the 'new hotness' is Forge World related.
Regarding the whole walking a person through the basics thing? It's one thing for someone being able to talk up their hobby--it's another to be able to teach someone the basics. A lot of us are advanced enough to have built up tricks or ways of easing the workload for ourselves that might work for us but not for someone else. I had been starting to teach a few people airbrushing before this whole nonsense and it was hard to differentiate my way of doing things from the basic way to do things.
Regarding the whole walking a person through the basics thing? It's one thing for someone being able to talk up their hobby--it's another to be able to teach someone the basics. A lot of us are advanced enough to have built up tricks or ways of easing the workload for ourselves that might work for us but not for someone else. I had been starting to teach a few people airbrushing before this whole nonsense and it was hard to differentiate my way of doing things from the basic way to do things.
I think its good you took others under your wing. I notice modern GW stores(here in the UK) making an effort to teach the young'uns but its usually a self-taught thing. An art student would most likely have a head start, but most of us would see an amazing model in White Dwarf, buy it, slap it together and paint it...hmmm. Never quite 'Eavy Metal standard, sadly. And thats the point when we either resigned ourselves or just solidered on until we improved.
All I can say is that Youtube is an absolute godsend.
Well armed with the new price bloat, larger than a great unclean one, I look forward to tomorrow announcements just to be utterly floored by how outrageous the costs will be. I can't wait to sleep in, and pick up the information second hand as even if it rocks my world It'll be shamefully over costed and hyped to heck and back.
I really miss the days I had genuine excitement for a new release. That I planned how many new boxes I'd get Now ? Not a chance I'd think that anymore as even a box of standard guard will be pushing ever upwards till they cost as much as space marines.
How a company can so completely talk out of their own rear end is quite the feet. I wonder if their talking heads ever feel bad to try and act like one of us peddling such a companies lies and bull crap. I mean I get we all got to make a living and maybe I'm just not cut out for the world as it is but I'd feel bad. Telling someone what an awesome value 10 ancient Cadian Guard models are, before they remake the kit for 60$ " NEW" horde infantry.
Yknow, not that bad, mostly big kits that where a whole paycheck or hobby budget anyway, a few weird things, but alot of is either incredibly expensive it liekly wont matter. and os in expensive that a buck or 2 wont matter.
I already see it coming. When they ever re do the Guard, my god those prices will soar through the heavens. It'll be a new kind of madness for chaff infantry.
I'm curious how many people here play more than one Games Workshop game, because it seems like maybe the people most okay with this price increase only play one game, or even just one army in one game.
I used to engage with almost every GW game line, and it became impossible to do so - and it wasn't just the price. The number of releases you needed for each game system increased. Like, now, every game system seems to get an annual. AoS has faction terrain and endless spells. KT and Warcry have killzones/ravaged lands. Underworlds spreads out cards among different warband packs. Warcry also has card sets to play legacy factions. Some of these games have specialized dice that are sold separately (or included in starter sets which disappear after two months). The Necromunda tactics cards are pretty cool, but they don't even last one week. Not to mention that you now have to have a subscription to White Dwarf to get all the content (like fyreslayers for Warcry).
The idea that the core experience of a GW game is just a rulebook, codex, and models is kind of out of date. And that would be troublesome, but not deal breaking if you only played one game system - but if you play multiple systems, it can be an overwhelming burden (made worse by the constant, unrelenting onslaught of price increases).
It's obvious that GW doesn't expect people to play every game they make - it is financially impossible at this point - but if you keep up with two or three, this isn't another $5 for a single model. This is probably an extra $100-$200 a year per game system.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I already see it coming. When they ever re do the Guard, my god those prices will soar through the heavens. It'll be a new kind of madness for chaff infantry.
It's already high if you don't have bits for heavy weapons teams or special weapons.
$35(Cadian/Catachan Squad)+$35(Command Squad)+$40(Heavy Weapon Squad) unless you go for bits sellers.
You'd be looking at $44 or $50 for all the options with any new Guard kit, assuming they keep it at 10 models(which isn't guaranteed).
I have multiple painted Mantic armies, and I gotta agree: the quality of the kits simply isn’t as high. They dont build as easily, the detail is often soft, the poses can be goofy, and the design aesthetic is all over the map.
Mantic has a niche, but it’s a cheaper product in every way.
Polonius wrote: I have multiple painted Mantic armies, and I gotta agree: the quality of the kits simply isn’t as high. They dont build as easily, the detail is often soft, the poses can be goofy, and the design aesthetic is all over the map.
Mantic has a niche, but it’s a cheaper product in every way.
They also aren't like GW, which isn't at THAT higher a quality to be charging as much as they do, so your defense is bad.
Sqorgar wrote: I
I used to engage with almost every GW game line, and it became impossible to do so - and it wasn't just the price. The number of releases you needed for each game system increased.
I used be that way as well. Besides large 40K armies, I had multiple armies for Warmaster, every Battlefleet Gothic fleet with every option, Mordheim bands, several Necromunda gangs, you name it. I think I have just as much build and paint time now, and percentage wise more disposable income- but I simply can't keep up anymore. The cost for a character model is crazy high and there's just too many releases, too often.
Red Corsair wrote: So GW offered gift vouchers providing a 5-10% discount as a way to continue sales while production was down, only to re-open and within a couple of weeks increase prices 5-10% and also before any of the new or interesting things are out?
Yet there are people questioning why folks are upset, citing past outrage as if it even remotely applies to the largest global economic downtrend in a lifetime?
Oh but guys, a thread back in 2006 had some peeps complaining about prices, so you guys must be wrong despite the fact there wasn't mass unemployment then. Geeze.
That’s something I forgot about. The value proposition those vouchers presented will no longer be the same come June so anyone that actually purchased any should definitely cash them out before then.
Dentry wrote: That’s something I forgot about. The value proposition those vouchers presented will no longer be the same come June so anyone that actually purchased any should definitely cash them out before then.
Unless you bought Forge World vouchers that is... but then again I've not bought a thing from FW since they fethed over the rest of the world by making our products more expensive for no reason.
Not Online!!! wrote: Could you imagine that? I allready can See 50 £ for 10 models that equate to 40 pts at Max Equipment.
The worst part being that said new Guard would probably end up looking like the Warriors from this set. "That means they'll look awesome. What's the problem with that?" Sure, 10 of them do look pretty damned awesome. But when you've got 60+ on the table and you realise it's the same 10 poses repeated over and over again it suddenly won't be so awesome...
Honestly Mantic's latest plastics have been a serious step up in improvement. Not GW level yet, but leaps and bounds beyond their early offerings. Go check out the Abyssal Dwarf or Northkin sprues.
It's crazy to think it's cheaper to get boutique resins in some cases than an actual plastic squad now.
I paid less for my Kingdom Death Dragon King (with additional human form, slaves and armor survivor set) than GW wants for one goblin character. It’s nuts when you think about it.
And yes, Kingdom Death plastics are GW-tier quality.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hell, I got a 15mm scales Dreamforge Leviathan, a plastic kit of superior quality, for about the price of a Space Marine terminator librarian.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I paid less for my Kingdom Death Dragon King (with additional human form, slaves and armor survivor set) than GW wants for one goblin character. It’s nuts when you think about it.
And yes, Kingdom Death plastics are GW-tier quality.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hell, I got a 15mm scales Dreamforge Leviathan, a plastic kit of superior quality, for about the price of a Space Marine terminator librarian.
Well, the Dragon King is what, $150 from the store? It’s huge, and very good quality, not saying anything negative about it, I’m just confused as to which goblin character is more expensive than that?
Oh man, that’s crazy. I’m pretty sure I got him for like $25 during the Kickstarter. I thought maybe he’d been bumped up to $75, which would still be a great deal...but $150 is almost as much as the core set. Never mind then.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Oh man, that’s crazy. I’m pretty sure I got him for like $25 during the Kickstarter. I thought maybe he’d been bumped up to $75, which would still be a great deal...but $150 is almost as much as the core set. Never mind then.
Well, the core set is $400 at full price haha. The first Kickstarter prices were insane for what the product actually ended up being.
Whelp, GW just lost another sale. Picked up some Mantic vehicles for my marines & IG for about 1/2 what it would cost me from GW. That taps me out from any consideration of buying the forthcoming AdMech cavalry or flopter.
This seems such a reversal from the Apocalypse sets they were dropping last year. Glad I finished bulking out some of my armies with those before a price hike.
I was hoping some day we'd see the (beautiful) Black Coach in a Start Collecting set so it would be a "reasonable" enough price to grab, but instead they're raising it's price? No thanks, GW.
GW pricing is okay for skirmish games, but with the mass battle games, it's mostly older players with established collections + sunk cost fallacy + "no-one will play anything else" fallacy that keeps it going. So many other choices nowadays, and that's before you look at 3d printing nibbling away at the margins.
They've made some good decisions over the last few years ( specialist games, contrast paints), but overall the business model keeps getting more capitalistic, loads of limited release minis at £35 a pop to get those FOMO buyers wallets open, heck there's even loot crates with ultra-rares and a game system with CCG-style blocks to cycle in the new set every 18 months. I do wonder when they'll start offering "GW premium" where you subscribe to get exclusive digital content and minis only sold to paid-up members.
Just Tony wrote: Whelp, time for all of you who stay current to save up for the new edition.
It's going to be pricey to be sure. I'm predicting the new codex drops will come in about 50 to 60 USD standard. I'd caution people who don't like tossing their cash into the fire to just keep up with the army you'll actually play and only when you are going to be able to play. As is I don't foresee when this year I'll even get a chance to play another game so I'm no rush personally.
Lord Damocles wrote: Buy your Necron Warriors now before the price rises and then the kit is replaced by one with more options in it!
Am I doing business right, GW?
I think GW has a (IMO justified) perception that customers will be willing to pay more for a higher-quality kit even if that kit is a 'remaster' of an older model.
Lord Damocles wrote: Buy your Necron Warriors now before the price rises and then the kit is replaced by one with more options in it!
Am I doing business right, GW?
I think GW has a (IMO justified) perception that customers will be willing to pay more for a higher-quality kit even if that kit is a 'remaster' of an older model.
But why increase the price of the OLD kit when it's shortly going to be replaced anyway?
Some will not like it because it isn't the old kit, some won't want the new kit because they don't match the old kit, so profit on the rush before the price rise, then profit on the rush before the kit is retired. Then profit on the new kit.
Its like the underpants gnomes joke, except:
Step 1: Profit
Step 2: Also Profit
Step 3: Profit some more.
As a bonus, it helps clear excess stock that would otherwise just be destroyed (as I seriously doubt they're going to bother making new casts of the current kit after showing off the replacement)
Lord Damocles wrote: Buy your Necron Warriors now before the price rises and then the kit is replaced by one with more options in it!
Am I doing business right, GW?
I think GW has a (IMO justified) perception that customers will be willing to pay more for a higher-quality kit even if that kit is a 'remaster' of an older model.
But why increase the price of the OLD kit when it's shortly going to be replaced anyway?
I assume because omitting kits from the price increases would be a dead giveaway that they are getting replaced, and GW wants to maintain more control over their previews than that.
Lord Damocles wrote: Buy your Necron Warriors now before the price rises and then the kit is replaced by one with more options in it!
Am I doing business right, GW?
I think GW has a (IMO justified) perception that customers will be willing to pay more for a higher-quality kit even if that kit is a 'remaster' of an older model.
But why increase the price of the OLD kit when it's shortly going to be replaced anyway?
because people are more likley to accept the price increase with the new box if the gab is smaller
old box is 20, new one is 30 is hard but if you raise the old box to 25 some time before people will say that just 5 more for shiny new stuff is ok
Wow that will.be like a percentage for each person who plays their systems
That's why they have multiple game systems and a constant stream of new/updated models, as well as a third edition of their flagship game out.
No matter how many times you shill for Games Workshop, they're not going to give you any free models. Sorry.
For your own sake, I hope that last line was a poor attempt at humor rather than an earnestly held belief. It'd be far less embarrassing for you to be an abysmal comedian than a conspiracy theorist.
Lord Damocles wrote: Buy your Necron Warriors now before the price rises and then the kit is replaced by one with more options in it!
Am I doing business right, GW?
I think GW has a (IMO justified) perception that customers will be willing to pay more for a higher-quality kit even if that kit is a 'remaster' of an older model.
But why increase the price of the OLD kit when it's shortly going to be replaced anyway?
I assume because omitting kits from the price increases would be a dead giveaway that they are getting replaced, and GW wants to maintain more control over their previews than that.
Well they sure did control that information for all of twelve hours before revealing the new kit...
Destroyers and Monoliths didn't increase, but they're getting replaced too.
Lord Damocles wrote: Buy your Necron Warriors now before the price rises and then the kit is replaced by one with more options in it!
Am I doing business right, GW?
I think GW has a (IMO justified) perception that customers will be willing to pay more for a higher-quality kit even if that kit is a 'remaster' of an older model.
But why increase the price of the OLD kit when it's shortly going to be replaced anyway?
I assume because omitting kits from the price increases would be a dead giveaway that they are getting replaced, and GW wants to maintain more control over their previews than that.
Well they sure did control that information for all of twelve hours before revealing the new kit...
Destroyers and Monoliths didn't increase, but they're getting replaced too.
Were it my choice I would not have raised the price of the old kit (and/or 25 for the new one, for that matter), but putting myself in the mindset of GWs perspective I can see why they did it even if I do not agree.
I mean GW is worth all the good will, they care only about you, their love is strange, not like ours. They love us, by charging us ever more money for the same offerings. They should be called Games WorkshopDD, with the Double Ds for a Double Dip of their price adjustments game.
Just a little reminder that the prices go up (sorry, "are adjusted") from Monday onwards, so if there was something on the list you wanted anyway, you may want to pick it up this weekend before it increases as much as 20% in some cases.
returning player here, I'm about to purchase my first boxes of CSM...
So I'm assuming they are dropping prices of some old models (I'm interested into Talons and Raptors) because new -pricey- designs are around the corner ?
Yeah, lol on Mantic for not taking their customers for granted and squeezing them for all they’ll give before tossing them aside like a sack of moldy tangerines.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Yeah, lol on Mantic for not taking their customers for granted and squeezing them for all they’ll give before tossing them aside like a sack of moldy tangerines.
Right!? Imagine gakking on them in this thread. Not that I want to post reddit/4chan tier memes but some people just want to CONSOOOOOOOOM.
I'm not going to stop buying GW because I'm a stupid addict. That said, I've slowed purchases to a trickle. But I will cringe every time I press that purchase button and maybe one day I'll be in a position where my bank account won't be able to take the hit. I hope I'll be able to fully stop then...
Well I checked the pre-releases today and quite frankly my head exploded ...I am I think pretty much done with "chasing the GDW plastic train" . I have walls of un-built GDW plastics and thousands of points built .Enough to last a lifetime . I have stopped buying the endless train of rulebooks through sheer exhaustion of trying to keep up. I think it is time to go back to my origins and start playing Rogue Trader again ....
Since I can now purchase a Saga army for the same price as one Necron Scythe model I will do that. Thank you GW for helping me justify more models purchases!
keas66 wrote: Well I checked the pre-releases today and quite frankly my head exploded
During these difficult times, we're all in this together. Now, more than ever, we have to face the new normal. As we stay apart, we can still come together over our hatred of $60 for 3 models. The new normal is the same old bs.
keas66 wrote: Well I checked the pre-releases today and quite frankly my head exploded ...I am I think pretty much done with "chasing the GDW plastic train" . I have walls of un-built GDW plastics and thousands of points built .Enough to last a lifetime . I have stopped buying the endless train of rulebooks through sheer exhaustion of trying to keep up. I think it is time to go back to my origins and start playing Rogue Trader again ....
AngryAngel80 wrote: Don't worry boys, those Orks will be 50$ by the next one or two adjustments, all the way up. Just not this day.
Just don't get my father started on the tale of how he and a group of friends went to the pub and his friend bought the next round of drinks. Announcing upon his return that the round (of about 5 or so people) came to nearly a whole pound!
Today it would be in the region of £20! That's a rise of 20 times!
The archaecopter seems really expensive, the other stuff pretty much as expected.
i don't expect I will stop buying as such, but the level of that buying may be significantly reduced. I do want to expand on my Sisters but their price is already established and it's not going to be a competitive army for me, more of a fun build.
The other bonus is that, unlike a model plane, when you play with your GW models they don't run a high chance of being smashed into tiny tiny bits at the end of play. I've seen more than enough videos of model planes not just landing badly but crashing into tiny tiny bits as the hurtle into the ground. Now there's a hobby where you really have to love building and rebuilding.
The other bonus is that, unlike a model plane, when you play with your GW models they don't run a high chance of being smashed into tiny tiny bits at the end of play. I've seen more than enough videos of model planes not just landing badly but crashing into tiny tiny bits as the hurtle into the ground. Now there's a hobby where you really have to love building and rebuilding.
He may be referring specifically to the Yano plane theory. Yano proposed a conjecture predicting the b-exponents of an irreducible plane curve singularity which is generic in its equisingularity class. But everyone know about this, right?
Hot damn, I wonder what the Underworlds warbands are going up to. I was going to buy Rippas Snarlfangs and the Grymwatch for adding to skirmish warband collections.
AegisGrimm wrote: Hot damn, I wonder what the Underworlds warbands are going up to. I was going to buy Rippas Snarlfangs and the Grymwatch for adding to skirmish warband collections.
See my above link.
$33 for the Beastgrave warbands, $34 for the previous season's.
AegisGrimm wrote: Hot damn, I wonder what the Underworlds warbands are going up to. I was going to buy Rippas Snarlfangs and the Grymwatch for adding to skirmish warband collections.
Interestingly, it seems that only the price of the actual Underworlds warbands go up, as I can't see the models-only kits (i.e. without cards) being listed, so presumably they stay the current price.
Still ordered a kit the other day though, as the complete set with a discount from an independent store was cheaper than the models-only one direct from GW. Probably won't be much of a different left after the price increase.
I do want to note that a lot of this is marketing tricks to push people into buying bundles. Start collectings and their regularly cycling two army boxes. It's a tool so they can go "See how much you are saving picking up rise of the phoenix".
It's actually pretty common marketing trick here. Bundles as deals, which get you to buy in on models you wouldn't get otherwise.
For example, as it stands, if I were to start to seriously collect space marines again (dumping all my really truly abysmally painted old marines), I'd pick up three start collecting space wolves. But that leaves me with three sets of space wolf gubbins I won't use cause I play ultramarines, and three lieutenants I don't need. And then, since I've already bought in because of the "deal" I'd be pushed into buying in on things to round out my force. Eliminators are too good to go without. Oh, I probably need some extra hqs that aren't lieutenants (of which I would have 4 at this point. And I already have captains, so they won't be that).
The vehicles are the things that kill me the most though. Man that sticker shock is rough. Although, mentally, character models are easily the worst value, they're not a throbbing 80 plus dollars.
Yeah! Only rich people deserve luxuries! Poor people should be glad they don't starve in the street too often!
I’m 99.9% sure they were being tongue in cheek.
It's a rather common sentiment though. That, as a luxury, only the affluent deserve GW products. They rarely state out the corollary of "And poor people don't deserve luxury goods" which is implicit in this line of argument and is super distressing from an ethical stand point.
Yeah! Only rich people deserve luxuries! Poor people should be glad they don't starve in the street too often!
I’m 99.9% sure they were being tongue in cheek.
It's a rather common sentiment though. That, as a luxury, only the affluent deserve GW products. They rarely state out the corollary of "And poor people don't deserve luxury goods" which is implicit in this line of argument and is super distressing from an ethical stand point.
I've seen people on this forum genuinely say so.
I can't recall the charming fellows name. But it was along the lines of "If you've not spent as much as I have then I'm not going to play you".
Expect this to be deleted soon of course.
Ah it was edited and posts removed to hide the goof up HAHA. sad.
AegisGrimm wrote: Hot damn, I wonder what the Underworlds warbands are going up to. I was going to buy Rippas Snarlfangs and the Grymwatch for adding to skirmish warband collections.
See my above link.
$33 for the Beastgrave warbands, $34 for the previous season's.
Wow that will.be like a percentage for each person who plays their systems
That's why they have multiple game systems and a constant stream of new/updated models, as well as a third edition of their flagship game out.
And I'm sure all 15 customers will be pleased to hear you say that.
I've never even heard of Mantic...
Allow me...
another UK based gaming company that produces it's own games and range of models, it very much hangs off the disillusionment of disgruntled GW customers who have moved away due to pricing or the scrapping of Warhammer. It's model range is a bit hit and miss but at a far better price. Mantic regularly make tongue in cheek announcements after GW have done so.
The creator of Mantic (Ronnie Renton) is a nice guy who attends gaming shows and replies to emails
Several people mock them on here, personally I don't see them as anything more than an alternative.
And it's relevant in this thread I believe as with another GW price adjustment Mantic may well pick up some more customers.
It is no surprise that the GW faithful does not know about Mantic. GW has done a Kimmy Schmidt on them so they have no idea what is going on outside the bomb shelter.
Tokhuah wrote: It is no surprise that the GW faithful does not know about Mantic. GW has done a Kimmy Schmidt on them so they have no idea what is going on outside the bomb shelter.
Its mostly that game stores in the states don't regularly stock Mantic products, and can (or at least used to) have a hard time ordering their products.
It really has nothing to do with GW.... much like a thread about GW prices has nothing to do with Mantic.
Local stores have nothing to do with it. This is the information age and everything is on the internet, therefore people should know everything. Seriously though, I know about Mantic because I am a gamer who is constantly looking around the internet for what is happening in the wider community, not a GW gamer who plops into the Warhammer Community page to be informed... A source that provides the same fair and balanced perspective of gaming as *** news.
Tokhuah wrote: Local stores have nothing to do with it. This is the information age and everything is on the internet, therefore people should know everything. Seriously though, I know about Mantic because I am a gamer who is constantly looking around the internet for what is happening in the wider community, not a GW gamer who plops into the Warhammer Community page to be informed... A source that provides the same fair and balanced perspective of gaming as *** news.
What do you expect Warhammer Community to do? Talk about Privateer Press? Mantic? Knight Models?
Don't be dense. And yeah, local stores have everything to do with it here in the US. If it is not stocked or played regularly in a local independent shop? It probably won't get traction or be looked into further.
Yes, it was Malestrom Games and Mierce, but there’s no reason to talk about it ITT.
Mantic exists, to some degree, because of GW’s decade-long era of anti-customer policies prior to the Roundtree era. During that time, many gamers became a lot more savvy about this hobby beyond the boundaries of GW.
Mantic exists because metachasers want cheaper stuff and the metachasers don't care about quality.
Their whole schtick is and always will be "generic stuff that can be repped in GW--but cheaper!". Don't try to spin this as "gamers became more savvy". People still try to spin Infinity as a super cheap game because it has free rules--while ignoring that their consumer friendliness in products is basically nonexistent.
You want to talk about a fandom that's effectively blind to the company & pricing? Look no further than Corvus Belli.
Kanluwen wrote: Mantic exists because metachasers want cheaper stuff and the metachasers don't care about quality.
Their whole schtick is and always will be "generic stuff that can be repped in GW--but cheaper!". Don't try to spin this as "gamers became more savvy". People still try to spin Infinity as a super cheap game because it has free rules--while ignoring that their consumer friendliness in products is basically nonexistent.
You want to talk about a fandom that's effectively blind to the company & pricing? Look no further than Corvus Belli.
Still cannot get my head round some of the things you defend GW for when Corvus Belli can do literally no right in your eyes. GW are no more consumer friendly a company than CB are.
Still cannot get my head round some of the things you defend GW for when Corvus Belli can do literally no right in your eyes. GW are no more consumer friendly a company than CB are.
Difference is that GW doesn't pretend to be your buddy. GW doesn't purposely stifle their growth and use the "we're just a small time group..." excuse as cover whenever they have issues. They also don't pretend that it would be some exorbitant thing to start adding extra parts into the boxes.
Also, pretty sure I've never said that GW is "consumer friendly".
Still cannot get my head round some of the things you defend GW for when Corvus Belli can do literally no right in your eyes. GW are no more consumer friendly a company than CB are.
Difference is that GW doesn't pretend to be your buddy. GW doesn't purposely stifle their growth and use the "we're just a small time group..." excuse.
Also, pretty sure I've never said that GW is "consumer friendly".
Yeah, sure. GW in this age of community site and social media (which I enjoy, personally) are definitely not pretending to ‘be your buddy’.
Funny, i heard about Mantic about the time Gw destroyed the game i was playing and offered me an alternative using the models i had sold off already while also being more affordable in general.
and infinity with free rules probably isn't where any savings come from- unless the games scale has changed from when i was looking into Aleph. now Scale is a better show of savings instead of the considering just about anyone is wowed by the scale of a common GW game (referring to 40k and older fantasy here- thats what i got drawn in by), then probably is a least a little put off by the pricing.
Kanluwen wrote: Mantic exists because metachasers want cheaper stuff and the metachasers don't care about quality.
Their whole schtick is and always will be "generic stuff that can be repped in GW--but cheaper!". Don't try to spin this as "gamers became more savvy". People still try to spin Infinity as a super cheap game because it has free rules--while ignoring that their consumer friendliness in products is basically nonexistent.
You want to talk about a fandom that's effectively blind to the company & pricing? Look no further than Corvus Belli.
I’m not a metachaser. I was I to GW for the setting and the minis. Manchu is right: GW pushes away a lot of people, including me, leading to a much more savvy group of gamers. Mantic does well because they’ve managed to take their origin as a source of discount miniatures and expand with a lot of new games, many well-received, better minis, and a positive attitude towards customers.
No one brought up Infinity in this thread but you.
Anyway, more savvy gamers being more aware of the competition is certainly a thing that happened. Look at the boom of small and mid-tier wargames that emerged during the Kirby years. Look at Kickstarter and the “deluxe” board game boom.
You're right in that I might be overstating that it's "nonsense", but gamers becoming more aware of the competition is not the same thing as becoming "more savvy" in my opinion.
What word would you use to describe players who become more aware of the larger world or miniature games, more aware of options they have both to save money and explore alternate settings and rule sets, and more aware of opinions counter to those experienced in GW stores and on GW boards/fan sites?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What word would you use to describe players who become more aware of the larger world or miniature games, more aware of options they have both to save money and explore alternate settings and rule sets, and more aware of opinions counter to those experienced in GW stores and on GW boards/fan sites?
'Aware'
I'm still not sure why they wouldn't go to GW's warhammer site to hear about warhammer releases though.
No, you didn’t. You were right, it was his own example. Meanwhile in reality:
Anyway, more savvy gamers being more aware of the competition is certainly a thing that happened. Look at the boom of small and mid-tier wargames that emerged during the Kirby years. Look at Kickstarter and the “deluxe” board game boom.
Exactly. GW makes lovely things that I really like. But I’m far far, far past the stage where GW was the only or even the primary company on my hobby radar.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: What word would you use to describe players who become more aware of the larger world or miniature games, more aware of options they have both to save money and explore alternate settings and rule sets, and more aware of opinions counter to those experienced in GW stores and on GW boards/fan sites?
Well, I'd probably go with "aware of other options" for one?
Manchu, you're the person in question who stated that "gamers have become more savvy". I used the example of Infinity directly in relation to that--because to this day, people still try to spin it as a "super cheap game" because of free rules(which is true), a free army builder(which is also true), "anything can do anything!"(it can't--lists matter despite the insistence of those folk who try so hard to spin things) and "lower model count"(which is kinda/sorta true).
The problem with that is you end up chasing the meta hard whenever they change things up. The whole of the Infinity Tournament System(which is effectively the de facto playstyle, because groups get prize support in the form of exclusive models from it) is specifically set up to change the meta and make people change their lists...which ends up involving (shock!) buying things.
The reason I say savvy is because customers not only became aware of the hobby beyond GW but also started to develop a different sense of value for cost.
@Kan, I am always wary of the “it’s really cheap” argument for any miniatures game, because there is (if nothing else) always the question of terrain.
Tokhuah wrote: This is the information age and everything is on the internet.
Not forgetting the White Dwarf magazine is usually sitting besides 6 other Wargaming magazines in the store.
So even without Internet you'd have to be pretty tunnel visioned to not see what's surrounding it on the shelf.
Tokhuah wrote: It is no surprise that the GW faithful does not know about Mantic. GW has done a Kimmy Schmidt on them so they have no idea what is going on outside the bomb shelter.
My time is limited, playing one miniature game is difficult enough. So typically I don't go out looking for others. In my area, the only thing played is 40K with some bits of AoS in the corners.
Kanluwen wrote: Mantic exists because metachasers want cheaper stuff and the metachasers don't care about quality.
Their whole schtick is and always will be "generic stuff that can be repped in GW--but cheaper!". Don't try to spin this as "gamers became more savvy". People still try to spin Infinity as a super cheap game because it has free rules--while ignoring that their consumer friendliness in products is basically nonexistent.
You want to talk about a fandom that's effectively blind to the company & pricing? Look no further than Corvus Belli.
Although I usually disagree with your persistent GW white knighting, it is usually quite well written. Some of it even makes vague sense to GWophiles. This post however is such a horrendous lie. All the gamers I know accept that a lot of Mantic figures aren't as good as GW, but the games are far better. They're also not trapped in that GW-spread belief that you have to buy minis from the rules writer. I bet there's a far bigger percentage of Mantic gamers playing with GW models than the other way round.
The metachasers are most likely tournament players who have to use GW figures for 'official' style tournies anyway.
Far better is an exceedingly subjective statement. Personally, I find their games boring, flavorless, and I really can't stand the way their unit footprint wound mechanic works.
Kanluwen wrote: Mantic exists because metachasers want cheaper stuff and the metachasers don't care about quality.
Their whole schtick is and always will be "generic stuff that can be repped in GW--but cheaper!".
Typical example of Mantic's generic, low-quality proxies for GW models according to Kan, apparently loved by metachasers, so presumably they can pass for official models at GW events at a cursory glance
Kanluwen wrote: Mantic exists because metachasers want cheaper stuff and the metachasers don't care about quality.
Their whole schtick is and always will be "generic stuff that can be repped in GW--but cheaper!".
Typical example of Mantic's generic, low-quality proxies for GW models according to Kan, apparently loved by metachasers as they can pass for official models at GW events at a cursory glance
Poor quality dispelled.
Awaits;
a) But I just don't like them
b) No one plays that round here
c) It's too generic (prior to complaining about GW special rules)
d) and so on...
a) But I just don't like them
b) No one plays that round here
c) It's too generic (prior to complaining about GW special rules)
d) and so on...
Sorry, but those are all fething ugly. If GW offered those as an army, I would not play it. If those were new releases for an army I already played, I would replace them with third party models.
Meanwhile i kind of like those models, because i often have an issue with parts of GW's Aesthetics. they don't fit because they aren't fitting for what im going for.
People buy for different things, and i tend towards a menality of cheaper, because i don't get the same sense of quality others do out of GW. maybes its because im less visual.
EnTyme wrote: I'm still waiting for the day this community comes up with a more creative way to dismiss dissenting opinions than to claim "white knighting".
Well, I've seen plenty of criticism of what could be termed "white knight" behaviour ITT, but a quick search shows that the term has actually been used once by one user, and then quoted by one other.
Kanluwen wrote: Mantic exists because metachasers want cheaper stuff and the metachasers don't care about quality.
Their whole schtick is and always will be "generic stuff that can be repped in GW--but cheaper!".
Typical example of Mantic's generic, low-quality proxies for GW models according to Kan, apparently loved by metachasers as they can pass for official models at GW events at a cursory glance
Poor quality dispelled.
Awaits;
a) But I just don't like them
b) No one plays that round here
c) It's too generic (prior to complaining about GW special rules)
d) and so on...
I think the top right is a much cooler genestealer but all the others look garbage.
Anyway... as always I have the same one word: Ebay
EnTyme wrote: I'm still waiting for the day this community comes up with a more creative way to dismiss dissenting opinions than to claim "white knighting".
Well, I've seen plenty of criticism of what could be termed "white knight" behaviour ITT, but a quick search shows that the term has actually been used once by one user, and then quoted by one other.
So congratulations, your wait is over
This is good news indeed!
We have (mostly) become the change we wanted to see!
So not to distract from the people defending their chosen game miniature companies and attacking the chosen company of the other, but did anybody else notice that some stuff they said was going to go up in price actually didn't?
Typical GW, they can't even get right which of their products they're going to start gouging you more for.
edit: Oh yeah, apparently some people did, it was just buried in the flood that came afterward.
and yes, people can buy whatever they like for whatever price they are willing to pay
if someone is fine with a 100$ BigMac because it is the Burger he likes most, no problem with it.
just don't call on other people who say you can get something better for the price and/or much more to eat than just a single burger
(specially if you talk about dinner, more expensive often just means that you pay for the location and the look on the table, not for quality and taste)
I for myself rather get a 25€ flyer from Mantic instead of a 80€ flyer from GW (no matter if AdMech, Marines, Guard or 35€ instead of 50/80€ for a tank), specially if I need more than one to play.
And as the new Steampunk/lowGothic/RedBrick style of GW is not really my taste regarding SciFi (in my opinion the new AdMech would fit much better to AoS) and I am much happier with my Dwarfs in Space from Mantic
But also not only about Minis, if they are about collecting and not just to play personal taste is more important than price up to a point, but also about game boxes
Going with a Deadzone 2 player Set, I get more models than I need to start playing and even have enough for bigger sized team later (if I build the pre-made teams for intruduction games)
for Kill Team, Box is more than twice times more expensive and I still need to buy regular Boxes to get enough Minis for a standard sized game
If I pay a premium price for a game, I expect also a Premium Product and not a base that does not work without expensions and/or detailed knowledge of the game before you buy into it.
Jidmah wrote: If you take your wive out for dinner, do you go to the restaurant you like, or to the cheap one with the 100% organic food?
Ah... that common misconception that a high price equates to the best.
Except you are the one advertising that the lowest price equates to the best, I merely stated that I like what GW offers.
So do you agree that you are the one with misconception, or do you prefer being a hypocrite?
I stated that highest cost does not always equate to the best. I didn't advertise anywhere that lowest price was the best.
I'm not sure what misconception I have?
Sorry, but those are all fething ugly. If GW offered those as an army, I would not play it. If those were new releases for an army I already played, I would replace them with third party models.
There is a difference between someone's preference (and definition of ugly) and a well made/painted model.
Gimgamgoo wrote: I stated that highest cost does not always equate to the best. I didn't advertise anywhere that lowest price was the best.
I'm not sure what misconception I have?
In the context of my quote, you did imply that the going to a cheaper restaurant is the superior choice.
Sorry, but those are all fething ugly. If GW offered those as an army, I would not play it. If those were new releases for an army I already played, I would replace them with third party models.
There is a difference between someone's preference (and definition of ugly) and a well made/painted model.
Not really. Being well made (or painted) might add to whether I like a model or not, but in the end I'd never buy a model because it's well made, and I'd buy a model I like even if it's not well made.
Awaits; a) But I just don't like them b) No one plays that round here c) It's too generic (prior to complaining about GW special rules) d) and so on...
Mantic stuff looks good in promotional pictures, but what you actually receives bares little resemblance.
I'd love it if the casting quality of my Dungeon Saga miniatures matched the quality in the pictures used to promote the Kickstarter.
I can only speak for the HIPS stuff, personally. I've heard they botched a coupls of those (basilean infantry and goblins IIRC), but the ones I've had were of pretty good quality (unarmored and armored skeletons, not-marines, not-squats and not-protoss), and all of those were very good quality. The Deadzone scenery is also pretty great.
But honestly, lately there's been a resurgence in decent plastic sprues from a fair amount of companies.
Jidmah wrote: If you take your wive out for dinner, do you go to the restaurant you like, or to the cheap one with the 100% organic food?
Ah... that common misconception that a high price equates to the best.
Except you are the one advertising that the lowest price equates to the best, I merely stated that I like what GW offers.
So do you agree that you are the one with misconception, or do you prefer being a hypocrite?
I stated that highest cost does not always equate to the best. I didn't advertise anywhere that lowest price was the best.
I'm not sure what misconception I have?
Sorry, but those are all fething ugly. If GW offered those as an army, I would not play it. If those were new releases for an army I already played, I would replace them with third party models.
There is a difference between someone's preference (and definition of ugly) and a well made/painted model.
There is indeed a difference between technical quality and artistic style.
Technical quality is in the sharpness of the details, the lack of production errors, and other very dry, objective fact.
What do you expect Warhammer Community to do? Talk about Privateer Press? Mantic? Knight Models?
It is not what is being discussed but what people know. I expect people who are gamers to not be tunnel visioned into one source Only knowing about Games Workshop, Marvel IP games, or Magic with no perspective about what else is out there does not provide an informed perspective, in fact it is a bit cultish. This is what GW wants of course.
Point is, price adjustments are BS, they are price hikes they just want to use hand wavium to make it sound better. Adjusting is better than gouging.
As for what models are better ? I'd say I think GW had much better models. I don't appreciate the single pose yet nice looking models as much anymore, they feel pretty yet soulless and bleh. This has gone down this path for awhile and I feel like the golden age of what I loved about GW models has passed and all they will do is become more easy build but nice as time goes on.
That for me is why I like the old marines more than the new. Sure the new look cool but it's all very samey and boring. Same feeling I had with the Sigmarines they never sparked even one desire to buy them as they just look so boring and lacking in flavor. So the more they keep jacking up prices the more I think people will look else where.
Mantic isn't a bad company its just not as popular in the states and honestly the only thing GW has going for it is presence at this point. If there was another system, from a better company with as much presence to get traction, at this point I'd drop GW like a bad date. The only thing good I can say about them is their customer support is great.
Almost 50 USD for a Chimera is insane, when new Guard drop and they are like 60$ for 10 that will be even more insane and that is all these price hikes hint to, a taste of things to come. As a wise soul stealing Wizard once said, it has begun.
I'm really disappointed that GW saw fit to jack up the price on Beastgrave by 25% to $100. With sales tax in BC that comes to $112 if you're buying it from GW direct (my local store where I play is in fact a GW store).
The price hike doesn't affect me in that I already own everything for Underworlds, but I feel really pessimistic about the effect it's going to have on the community we're growing here (assuming we're ever allowed to play in person again.
For reference, Nightvault was $70, Beastgrave was already an increase on that to $80 and I don't think it was an especially easy sell. It'll be even tougher now that it's in three digits.
GW's overseas pricing doesn't seem to consider sticker shock at all. Furthermore, with UK retail prices already inclusive of 20% VAT, foreign prices are even more out of whack. Beastgrave's new retail price in the UK is £50 - including 20% VAT. The Canadian retail price is equivalent to a UK ex-VAT price of £59 - which would be £70.80 at the till. Does anyone in the UK seriously think that Beastgrave is worth 70 quid?
Mantic isn't a bad company its just not as popular in the states and honestly the only thing GW has going for it is presence at this point. If there was another system, from a better company with as much presence to get traction, at this point I'd drop GW like a bad date.
it is difficult to say how much presence Mantic's Deadzone has, because of the pure nature of the game, you don't need a Club or Store to play, same with Walking Dead.
yet those are Mantic's best selling games and just what I have seen people play at home in small groups with no big interaction outside FB
the direct competition is Kill Team, while Warpath rivals 40k in size/amount of models, there rules are more comparable to Apocalypse (or the other way around as WP is the older one) which is not to everyones liking
for the size in between Deadzone and 40k, Star Wars Legion and it fills this gab perfectly. It is the typical FFG game, so has a lot of problem to keep stuff in stock as the demand is higher than the production and skips WYSIWYG for cards and the SW setting is not for everyone but it is there and played a lot.
I looked at some of the prices in the online store yesterday, and can safely say that my expenditures will slow down for sure. I was thinking of finishing up some of my old marines to round out the collection......but now GW sees fit to raise most of those prices? Weird choice. So I'm pretty much done with any catch up, what I have is what I have unless I find something really cheap in secondary market that is good.
Sure, I will get the 9th boxset, but will be more selective on individual character models...those prices are obscene.
Mantic isn't a bad company its just not as popular in the states and honestly the only thing GW has going for it is presence at this point. If there was another system, from a better company with as much presence to get traction, at this point I'd drop GW like a bad date.
it is difficult to say how much presence Mantic's Deadzone has, because of the pure nature of the game, you don't need a Club or Store to play, same with Walking Dead.
yet those are Mantic's best selling games and just what I have seen people play at home in small groups with no big interaction outside FB
the direct competition is Kill Team, while Warpath rivals 40k in size/amount of models, there rules are more comparable to Apocalypse (or the other way around as WP is the older one) which is not to everyones liking
for the size in between Deadzone and 40k, Star Wars Legion and it fills this gab perfectly. It is the typical FFG game, so has a lot of problem to keep stuff in stock as the demand is higher than the production and skips WYSIWYG for cards and the SW setting is not for everyone but it is there and played a lot.
It just ends up being saturation for me, like I'd love to try Legion but honestly I'm not sure I trust FFG much either at this point. Though I enjoy the SW stuff it's just such a niche group around here, no one I know plays it so it just ends up being stuck with GW if I want to play any of the mini games. Which is really why they sit so high on the hog with the adjustments. Many I feel are just stuck, some of course would never ever leave but it's hard to know when it often is the only game in town.
Kanluwen wrote: Mantic exists because metachasers want cheaper stuff and the metachasers don't care about quality.
Their whole schtick is and always will be "generic stuff that can be repped in GW--but cheaper!".
Typical example of Mantic's generic, low-quality proxies for GW models according to Kan, apparently loved by metachasers as they can pass for official models at GW events at a cursory glance
Poor quality dispelled.
Awaits; a) But I just don't like them b) No one plays that round here c) It's too generic (prior to complaining about GW special rules) d) and so on...
e) They don't look like they belong in 40K, because they dont. If you like them, cool. Why we're talking about them in relation to 40K?
Here is what I would say. If you find 40K too expensive, why are you here crying about it? Go play this Mantic game if it's cheaper and so much better.
Also, yeah those do look stupid and ugly. Sorry but I calls it as I see it.
What do you expect Warhammer Community to do? Talk about Privateer Press? Mantic? Knight Models?
It is not what is being discussed but what people know. I expect people who are gamers to not be tunnel visioned into one source Only knowing about Games Workshop, Marvel IP games, or Magic with no perspective about what else is out there does not provide an informed perspective, in fact it is a bit cultish. This is what GW wants of course.
Or we just don't have time to waste on games that literally aren't even SOLD at our FLGS because no one plays them. I have many hobbies, 40K being one of them. I can't play everything, nor do I want to.
At least 3 of them do very much look like they could belong in 40k. I'm sure plenty could point at current 40k models and say they " don't belong " that is an entirely subjective gripe.
As for why people gripe, because they want to ? That love it or leave it attitude just eventually burns down what you claim to love as if you only allow agreement you end up with an unhelpful echo chamber.
One could say why complain about complaining ? Why not just love it and ignore those complaints ?
e) They don't look like they belong in 40K, because they dont. If you like them, cool. Why we're talking about them in relation to 40K?
because someone said Mantic is only making cheap and bad alternaitves for GW models so that meta chasers can stay on a budget
yet those models won't fit anything unless you are going to play an undiscovered alien race, so the main argument is just made up without any backup
Togusa wrote: Go play this Mantic game if it's cheaper and so much better.
I do
really looked forward to Kill Team but what GW offered was not worth the price (and I won't even need to buy new models as I have enough around) for me so I ended up with Deadzone. The game is better and cheaper.
Kanluwen wrote: Mantic exists because metachasers want cheaper stuff and the metachasers don't care about quality.
Their whole schtick is and always will be "generic stuff that can be repped in GW--but cheaper!".
Typical example of Mantic's generic, low-quality proxies for GW models according to Kan, apparently loved by metachasers as they can pass for official models at GW events at a cursory glance
Poor quality dispelled.
Awaits;
a) But I just don't like them
b) No one plays that round here
c) It's too generic (prior to complaining about GW special rules)
d) and so on...
e) They don't look like they belong in 40K, because they dont. If you like them, cool. Why we're talking about them in relation to 40K?
Here is what I would say. If you find 40K too expensive, why are you here crying about it? Go play this Mantic game if it's cheaper and so much better.
Also, yeah those do look stupid and ugly. Sorry but I calls it as I see it.
Was that directed at me?
I was quoting another post.
People were comparing toy soldiers from one company with toy soldiers from another company and the price differences and quality. After all, this was a thread about GW price 'adjustments'.
And the bit about me crying over 40k prices? Wow, aren't you entitled.
Mantic Games (rules) technically are better, but not always the minis. However, I'm not stuck in the bubble of having to purchase figures from only one manufacturer.
I do buy GW models from time to time. so yes, their price rises annoy me as much as anyone. Except possibly yourself who likes the expense.
Ah the yearly GW price gouge, sorry, adjustment...
I thought, with the "gateway game" spam junket they've been on recently that they were moving away from only focusing on the wallets of the kids of whales...
Personally I gave up buying stuff regularly a few years ago, I'm in the luxurious position of having a 20 year old company sized Dark Angels army and some Deathwing/Ravenwing, 1500+ points of CSM, a smattering of Eldar and a few random models, all bought at least 10 years ago before the great price adjustment crusade really got going. My gaming buddy has similar amounts of 40k models also. So we just proxy stuff where necessary. Something on a 25mm base is the same as something else on a 25mm base...
If I do buy anything new (last new thing I bought was Van Saar and Cawdor gangs last year, year before) it's something random just to paint, or small units (like Necromunda gangs), and I buy it from a 3rd party that offers a discount, many offer as much as 20% discount. And even then I only buy one or two things a year, if that.
I was sizing up a table full of GW terrain for Necromunda the other day though. It was looking like the thick end of £1k ($1255ish). I can get as much or more MDF terrain for a third of that cost. May not look as pretty but it'll do the job.
If I were GW I'd be looking at more ways to get people playing, and terrain is a key aspect in that! They'd do a roaring trade if they produced some low cost reasonable detail terrain!
I think, or at least hope, that a great many current gamers may be telling GW to go do one if they carry on as they are, especially in these uncertain economic times for many, including myself.
Unfortunately though there will still be a core of whales that will continue to blindly pay GW's extortionate prices. After all as whales they're all right, stuff everyone else, not their problem others can't afford the same hobby, and that they as whales are enabling GW to maintain high prices. Until that is they try to find a game and can't because GW have priced gamers out of the market, but no, that'll never happen, will it...
Don't think GW are doing themselves any favours....
Rob Lee wrote: Ah the yearly GW price gouge, sorry, adjustment...
I thought, with the "gateway game" spam junket they've been on recently that they were moving away from only focusing on the wallets of the kids of whales...
Personally I gave up buying stuff regularly a few years ago, I'm in the luxurious position of having a 20 year old company sized Dark Angels army and some Deathwing/Ravenwing, 1500+ CSM, a smattering of Eldar and a few random models, all bought at leat 10 years ago before the great price adjustment crusade really got going. My gaming buddy has similar amounts of 40k models also. So we just proxy stuff where necessary. Something on a 25mm base is the same as something else on a 25mm base...
If I do buy anything new (last new thing I bought was Van Saar and Cawdor gangs last year, year before) it's something random just to paint, or small units (like Necromunda gangs), and I buy it from a 3rd party that offers a discount, many offer as much as 20% discount. And even then I only buy one or two things a year, if that.
I think a great many current gamers may be telling GW to go do one if they carry on as they are, especially in these uncertain economic times for many, including myself.
Unfortunately though there will still be a core of affluent gamers (whales) that will continue to blindly pay GW's extortionate prices. After all they're all right. Until they try to find a game and can't because GW have priced gamers out of the market, but no, that'll never happen, will it...
Don't think GW are doing themselves any favours....
The reason GW don't learn from this, is that the whales continue to purchase. Those struggling with prices, just spend what they normally afford. They just get less for their money. It suits GW as they make the same money and have to make less product.
There's so many people on here saying how annoyed they are at the price rises, yet will spend the same budget each month on GW goods.
Many won't change. Their only friendship groups and hobby time are all based around GW games. Leaving the 'cult' has a massive impact on their social life.
e) They don't look like they belong in 40K, because they dont. If you like them, cool. Why we're talking about them in relation to 40K?
because someone said Mantic is only making cheap and bad alternaitves for GW models so that meta chasers can stay on a budget
yet those models won't fit anything unless you are going to play an undiscovered alien race, so the main argument is just made up without any backup
Togusa wrote: Go play this Mantic game if it's cheaper and so much better.
I do
really looked forward to Kill Team but what GW offered was not worth the price (and I won't even need to buy new models as I have enough around) for me so I ended up with Deadzone. The game is better and cheaper.
Cool. I'm glad you have a game to enjoy.
I enjoy 40K and look forward to the new models for Ad Mech and Necrons and plan to purchase them.
Kanluwen wrote: Mantic exists because metachasers want cheaper stuff and the metachasers don't care about quality.
Their whole schtick is and always will be "generic stuff that can be repped in GW--but cheaper!".
Typical example of Mantic's generic, low-quality proxies for GW models according to Kan, apparently loved by metachasers as they can pass for official models at GW events at a cursory glance
Poor quality dispelled.
Awaits;
a) But I just don't like them
b) No one plays that round here
c) It's too generic (prior to complaining about GW special rules)
d) and so on...
e) They don't look like they belong in 40K, because they dont. If you like them, cool. Why we're talking about them in relation to 40K?
Here is what I would say. If you find 40K too expensive, why are you here crying about it? Go play this Mantic game if it's cheaper and so much better.
Also, yeah those do look stupid and ugly. Sorry but I calls it as I see it.
Was that directed at me?
I was quoting another post.
People were comparing toy soldiers from one company with toy soldiers from another company and the price differences and quality. After all, this was a thread about GW price 'adjustments'.
And the bit about me crying over 40k prices? Wow, aren't you entitled.
Mantic Games (rules) technically are better, but not always the minis. However, I'm not stuck in the bubble of having to purchase figures from only one manufacturer.
I do buy GW models from time to time. so yes, their price rises annoy me as much as anyone. Except possibly yourself who likes the expense.
Honestly I'm not sure if I was replying to you or the other person.
I never think about price, my hobby is my hobby, it costs what it costs. I'm not rich, but I have no outstanding debt anymore and have hit the plance in life where I can afford to buy 4+ model kits per month with no repercussion. I just don't care or think about the cost.
Would be nice to have a "budget" for hobbies each month...
I think it also comes down to a perceived prestige thing. GW have positioned themselves, or try to, as the Rolls Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Pagani, Ferrari etc. of the hobby. Many whales see themselves as being above others simply because they can afford to buy GW products. Much in the same way owners of said car brands do...
Don't wish ill on anyone but hopefully the current and forthcoming economic crisis due to the current pandemic will adjust some of the selfish attitudes...
Been saying for years the selfish attitudes displayed by many of the more affluent gamers are causing the player base to shrink, and around most of the UK it has done from what I can tell, despite GW posting massive profits. The bigger global markets, like the US tournament scene, are where GW have grown, but then that's where we seem to get the negative attitudes from...
Would be nice to have a "budget" for hobbies each month...
I think it also comes down to a perceived prestige thing. GW have positioned themselves, or try to, as the Rolls Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Pagani, Ferrari etc. of the hobby. Many whales see themselves as being above others simply because they can afford to buy GW products. Much in the same way owners of said car brands do...
Don't wish ill on anyone but hopefully the current and forthcoming economic crisis due to the current pandemic will adjust some of the selfish attitudes...
Been saying for years the selfish attitudes displayed by many of the more affluent gamers are causing the player base to shrink, and around most of the UK it has done from what I can tell, despite GW posting massive profits. The bigger global markets, like the US tournament scene, are where GW have grown, but then that's where we seem to get the negative attitudes from...
This is gotta be a troll post.. Can I just confirm, you think wargamers are selfish because those that can afford GW miniatures, buy GW minatures other might not afford which somehow perpetuates high prices? Surely you could just get a buket of green-stuff and sculpt your own miniatures in a pinch if GW prices are too expensive.
How many times does this have to be said.. what one person thinks is expensive is not expensive to someone else.. Its not friggin food we all need to survive or electricity we are talking about its plastic toy solidiers.. Dont like ti dont buy it. cant afford it dfont buy it.. same with big ass Tv or expesnive cars..
I drive a piece of gak car..I do honestly... I'm going to rag it into the ground but it just keeps working year after year.. I'm not going to look at a Bentley and think the guy is selfish because he bought a Bentley so that Bentley can justify having a ludicrous price tag... I dont want/ cant afford a Bentley.. but if only all those slefihs jerks would instead drive piece of gak cars, bentleys would naturaly become cheaper we could all afford bentleys..(apart form those that cannot afford a car of any kind...but screw them I guess ?)
The Bentley driver in turn cant/wont afford a private helicopter and so on.. We should all have private helicopters by this logic eh ?
How often to customers not buying something result in a company lowering prices but maintaining the same product quality and volume?
It's VERY rare that happens. Typically when a market stops buying entirely (or en-mass) the company has to restructure. This might mean dropping a lot of product lines; dropping a lot of the company bulk and downsizing.
So you might well get cheaper warhammer- probably at a lower quality without black library without forgeworld without as much art or fluff etc...
By your logic those who can't afford should just sit staring at the wall!
There are lots of ways to get into the hobby (Even GW ) without being bank breaking. That said if there are people who seriously cannot afford it then, well, yes they will have to stare at the wall. Or play and promote other games they can afford. It's a luxury productline not food or water.
Also at present GW has seen their market GROW significantly over the years. So they are raising prices at the normal time; they are seeing the market grow and they are seeing what works and what fails. In short we are still very far from the critical mass point where they overprice themselves out of the market in the extreme.
Just the cold hard truth that many seem unable or unwilling to grasp.
Why do you think prices remain so high?
Could it perhaps be because people keep on paying them?
If price hikes continue at some point the customer base will shrink so much that the company has to reduce prices or go out of business.
That is where GW are headed.
That is where the hobby is headed - a small core of very affluent people. Much akin to aforementioned luxury car owners.
If people stopped and thought for a moment, i.e. stopped being selfish...
Applies to a great many things here in the UK.
If you are right then you have nothing to be concerned about eh ? GW will go under or adjust and you wont have to moan about their high prices anymore. So in fact people enjoying their hobby and buying stuff is a good thing as it will speed up this process. I don't know what you are upset.
The only thing that seems selfish is trying to guilt trip and prevent people from buying stuff for their chosen hobby because someone cant afford it therefore nobody should be allowed... Seems.. Well .. selfish ?
I definitely think it's fortunate there are some really good, quality games available at a lower price and entry point. In part, many of those flourished (Mantic included) due to GW being even more avaricious in the past (think 10 or so years ago) which really left some spaces open in a market they had largely dominated.
Games like Infinity, the Mantic games, X-Wing and numerous other sci-fi entries (if you exclude the historicals scene, which might have been helped a bit - Flames of War was always seen as a 'graduation' game from GW games) they all benefited from the time when GW had a lot less variety in its content, wasn't doing anything new, and with the lack of Specialist games the entry price point was much higher than it is today.
You have also had a diaspora of talented games creators that have left GW and moved on to other companies. To name just a few, Mantic was founded by ex-GW, Flames of War/Battlefront as well, the Battlefront games were authored by Warwick Kinrade (who did the Imperial Armour/Forge World books). Warlord Games (bolt action, Gates of Antares amongst others) has got Rick Priestly, literally the father of 40k, doing games development for them (!) So it is very likely that the 'soul' of the games that you like within GW exist elsewhere, simply because they are being made by the same people. Quite often the writers have more scope for adding their own input as well with those companies, as they are away from the corporate restrictions of GW.
So.. don't feel trapped and feel forced to pay those prices, look at what other options are available (is what I am trying to say)
If you are right then you have nothing to be concerned about eh ? GW will go under or adjust and you wont have to moan about their high prices anymore. So in fact people enjoying their hobby and buying stuff is a good thing as it will speed up this process. I don't know what you are upset.
The only thing that seems selfish is trying to guilt trip and prevent people from buying stuff for their chosen hobby because someone cant afford it therefore nobody should be allowed... Seems.. Well .. selfish ?
Yeah, yeah.
I'd rather see an increased player base, to bring in more and more players. That in turn should bring costs down, with more money floating about, supposedly it's basic supply and demand economics.
If that is selfish, well...
I live in a relatively affluent part of mid/north Essex. Prior to the pandemic you couldn't get a game of anything tabletop outside of a handful of well established clubs like Wayland in Hockley, or the Chelmsford bunker, I think there's a small relatively obscure club in Colchester also, those or GW's stores in Chelmsford and Colchester.
People look at GW's hobby and see it as a very expensive hobby that they don't want to get into. The GW side of the hobby at least, seems to have become more one of miniature collecting and showing off for the social media generation, rather than wargaming, which goes back to my point of "prestige".
Given that GW is the highest profile company out there Is people's perception of the hobby, and the distinct lack of a player base in many areas, good for growing the hobby from our perspective as hobbyists?
GW and people with attiudes like yours, who support GW's business practice, do the hobby no favours.
Rich man poor man shouldn't even be part of the hobby.
Overread wrote: How often to customers not buying something result in a company lowering prices but maintaining the same product quality and volume?
It's VERY rare that happens. Typically when a market stops buying entirely (or en-mass) the company has to restructure. This might mean dropping a lot of product lines; dropping a lot of the company bulk and downsizing.
So you might well get cheaper warhammer- probably at a lower quality without black library without forgeworld without as much art or fluff etc...
By your logic those who can't afford should just sit staring at the wall!
There are lots of ways to get into the hobby (Even GW ) without being bank breaking. That said if there are people who seriously cannot afford it then, well, yes they will have to stare at the wall. Or play and promote other games they can afford. It's a luxury productline not food or water.
Also at present GW has seen their market GROW significantly over the years. So they are raising prices at the normal time; they are seeing the market grow and they are seeing what works and what fails. In short we are still very far from the critical mass point where they overprice themselves out of the market in the extreme.
And, as we all know, the poor deserve nothing but cold concrete, moldy bread, and brackish water.
The poor deserve to have hobbies and luxuries as much as you do mate.
The poor deserve to have hobbies and luxuries as much as you do mate.
I never said they don't deserve to have hobbies. Just that they don't "deserve" a specific one which is only one company of many in a single market. Just like you can't justify everyone having a DSLR camera or a drone etc.. There are many hobbies that simply price people out; you can't guilt trip fans nor a company into supporting a market they aren't aiming for. GW isn't aiming for the bottom end of affordability with their product; its not a market they are "chasing". Other companies ARE chasing or at least are affordable to those markets.
You can wargame on the cheap; perhaps it means you have to put a ibt more effort into promoting the game locally for your area, but otherwise there are cheap options. GW, Mantic, PP, etc.... none of the companies are required (legally nor morally) to make their products affordable to all. I'm sure GW and others do their best (within the bounds of also making a profit and income) to keep their price as low as they can.
It would less of an issue if, like homeownership, most people never had any expectation of buying GW minis. However, many of us have been buying their product for decades and gradually been priced out. It’s hard not to feel betrayed when we have such a long, emotional investment in the “hobby” even through GW’s darkest days only to feel like we were forced out. And this is happening across the board in many of the pastimes where we found happiness, in succession, so it hits harder.
People feel it more when something is taken away than if they never had it at all.
Overread wrote: I'm sure GW and others do their best (within the bounds of also making a profit and income) to keep their price as low as they can.
Hahahaha
Oh wait you're serious.
GW cultivated their Apple-like cult for a reason. They can jack up prices yearly and the conspicuous consumers will be on here bragging about how they can afford the new hundred dollar 5 man Cadian box or whatever.
It's the triumph of marketing over economic decision making.
I never said they don't deserve to have hobbies. Just that they don't "deserve" a specific one which is only one company of many in a single market.
Why?
Give us one good cogent reason, that isn't the usual "it's the way it is", why people should not be able to afford to enjoy GW's part of the hobby, especially those who have invested their time and money in GW's products to date? And other than GW's shareholders dividends what detriment would GW pricing themselves more affordably have on the hobby - and no quality does not have to be sacrificed, other more affordable companies have shown us that?
Saying that people don't "deserve" is like a snobbish rich person sneering at someone less wealthy who's accidentally been let into the private members club - "oh you couldn't possibly afford to live the way I do, you have no place in my circles"...
Overread wrote: I'm sure GW and others do their best (within the bounds of also making a profit and income) to keep their price as low as they can.
Hahahaha
Oh wait you're serious.
GW cultivated their Apple-like cult for a reason. They can jack up prices yearly and the conspicuous consumers will be on here bragging about how they can afford the new hundred dollar 5 man Cadian box or whatever.
It's the triumph of marketing over economic decision making.
Their shareholders have literally said to never lower the prices and they listen, which is all the more baffling.
My point is that no one is entitled to luxury products. They are priced at what they are priced at. Companies choose (within reason) what segment of the market they aim for and they go for that.
Sure I'd love if everyone could afford and was able to play with warhammer models - the more the better. I don't disagree. But at the same time I don't agree that the best solution is for GW to fight for the bottom barrel prices for their product. Indeed aiming at that segment would come at a cost to other things. At the same time sure if someone rose to be as big as GW in their own market GW might well be able to find ways to operate with lower prices. I just don't think they'd be earthshatteringly lower than they are now.
I'd also note that every single hobby I'm aware of has gone up in price - even MTG card packs have gone up over 10 years or so in price (and that's after going up over 20 years as well). Camera gear, cars, most things have gone up - we live in an enconomic system that has slaved itself to the concept of ever increasing values - even if in relative terms we are no better off (if not slightly worse off).
It's a debate for another place, but it's more a consequence of of prices keeping up with inflation but wages staying relatively stagnant, at least in the American context.
No I'm asking for a valid explanation other than "it's the way it is", which is what you've just trotted out.
There is no such thing as the bottom end of the market. The hobby is generally one of reasonably comfortably off people anyway. There's a reason the media refer to the hobby in general as "opiates for middle class nerds".
We're all gamers and miniature painters. That's the market. Like I said before, rich man poor man shouldn't even be a part of it from the point of view of hobbyists wanting each other to enjoy the hobby and for new people to come into the hobby.
Nothing to do with entitlement either, but if you want to go down that route, from where I'm sitting it seems like a core of very affluent people feel entitled to keep the riff raff out of their hobby, and yeah, why shouldn't gamers who have invested money and time over the years feel entitled to continue to be able to do so?
We're all gamers and miniature painters. That's the market. Like I said before, rich man poor man shouldn't even be a part of it.
Like it or not it is part of it.
Sure it would be fantastic to live in a Star-Trek style future where the playing field is far more level and most people live a comfortable affluent life. Secure in both their environment; home and work and able to afford most entertainments. One might also argue that shifts toward concepts like living wages (I believe Spain is touting that they are going to try that out and Sweeden voted on trying it out a year or two back) and the like can help; we still live in a very consumer driven economy. It's quite beyond wargamers or GW to change the whole nature of economics. At least if you remain only within the context and confines of the hobby.
Overread wrote: I'm sure GW and others do their best (within the bounds of also making a profit and income) to keep their price as low as they can.
.. i have to ask why you think this.
look at how other companies handle making plastic models that could function as IG. they all have their different ways and costs, but how do you think GW asking as much as they do for cadian infantry or tempestus, outside of particular aesthetics and the GW brand is in any way keeping the price as low as they can, especially compared to other companies?
I don't want to bring up wargames atlantic again- ive done enough of that lately.
At this point i find it more reasonable to believe GW charges what they can to optimize per unit sale because they produce physical product, and do these raises to optimize how much they can get per box while not filling up their warehouses with unsold things- maybe even using the announcements coming out to force a buyers rush. for some people the prices are more than fine. others can't or won't even begin. others are more being strong armed, both as the prices increase, or out of love of the setting (i know i wouldn't be here without the setting), or the fact they may have nobody to play with if they were to change games.
Thats the other detail. sometimes the only places to get a game are either only doing GW or ARE GW stores. can't bring my guard idea to those places because i don't like GW's current infantry guard aesthetic if they ban the use of the models i would rather use, and im not buying their aesthetic just to play it in more places because of the cost either, so the idea just dies (also, im not paying that much for a valkyrie. no thank you) as does another player of any stripe not showing up locally. one has to wonder how many people are kept out because of these factors, but it's not enough to matter in what seems to be the plan. GW can only produce so much anyway, i guess. do more players matter if they ship enough product to make them happy? no.
I try to get the best value possible for my investments in anything, so i cannot justify the bulk of the costs. I already have to much unopened or metal product ive barely been able to use and have buyers remorse for because of how things went locally, so unless something drastic happens, im out whether or not i want to be. and since i keep showing up here, i guess i don't want to be.
Again with the advocation of the status quo. Just because something is, doesn't mean it has to remain so. Do you think we would have seen the fall of the Berlin wall if the youth at the time on the East German side had said "oh well, it's the way it is"?!!?!
Back in the late 90s/early 00s I put together a 100+ company of Dark Angels, mostly just the generic Space Marine models of the time, nothing special, on a shoe string income. Wages were not too dissimilar to today vs cost of living and cost of living certainly wasn't much different to now. So wealth balancing is a moot point.
You simply cannot put such an army together on the same budget in the same time frame now and the models aren't orders of magnitude better than they were back then, in fact some of the sculpts in metal have better defined details than some of GWs plastic models today.
I simply cannot see how GW's pricing can be defended, or someone can sit there and say that it shouldn't be challenged because GW are doing well. GW doing well can be argued quite easily as a negative thing for the hobby - it's pushing people out of the hobby, whilst some people coming into the hobby struggle to get into it.
we still live in a very consumer driven economy. It's quite beyond wargamers or GW to change the whole nature of economics. At least if you remain only within the context and confines of the hobby.
Ah so we as consumers cannot change a consumer driven economy. Do you not see the contradiction there?
Goes back to my point about people having an "I'm all right, don't care about anyone else, so I won't bother trying to change anything" attitude.
Overread wrote: I'm sure GW and others do their best (within the bounds of also making a profit and income) to keep their price as low as they can.
Hahahaha
Oh wait you're serious.
GW cultivated their Apple-like cult for a reason. They can jack up prices yearly and the conspicuous consumers will be on here bragging about how they can afford the new hundred dollar 5 man Cadian box or whatever.
It's the triumph of marketing over economic decision making.
Their shareholders have literally said to never lower the prices and they listen, which is all the more baffling.
Can you take a guess as to how i know this is complete fiction?
If you are right then you have nothing to be concerned about eh ? GW will go under or adjust and you wont have to moan about their high prices anymore. So in fact people enjoying their hobby and buying stuff is a good thing as it will speed up this process. I don't know what you are upset.
The only thing that seems selfish is trying to guilt trip and prevent people from buying stuff for their chosen hobby because someone cant afford it therefore nobody should be allowed... Seems.. Well .. selfish ?
Yeah, yeah.
I'd rather see an increased player base, to bring in more and more players. That in turn should bring costs down, with more money floating about, supposedly it's basic supply and demand economics.
If that is selfish, well...
I live in a relatively affluent part of mid/north Essex. Prior to the pandemic you couldn't get a game of anything tabletop outside of a handful of well established clubs like Wayland in Hockley, or the Chelmsford bunker, I think there's a small relatively obscure club in Colchester also, those or GW's stores in Chelmsford and Colchester.
People look at GW's hobby and see it as a very expensive hobby that they don't want to get into. The GW side of the hobby at least, seems to have become more one of miniature collecting and showing off for the social media generation, rather than wargaming, which goes back to my point of "prestige".
Given that GW is the highest profile company out there Is people's perception of the hobby, and the distinct lack of a player base in many areas, good for growing the hobby from our perspective as hobbyists?
GW and people with attiudes like yours, who support GW's business practice, do the hobby no favours.
Rich man poor man shouldn't even be part of the hobby.
It is supply and demand.. And GW is supplying .. people are buying ... Seems to be working in the parameters of free market. So again i dont understand what your issue is apart from in your relative experience its too expensive therefore nobody should buy it which is silly. The whole status quoe idealism just doesn't work in reality.. If I can afford to do something I.e. Buy a model I want and like the look of, why should I not do it and have enjoyment from it just to make it more accessible for someone I dont know or care about and more likely than not doesnt care about me? Thats some wierd moral mental gymastics throwing around from some idealistic moral high horse that has nothign to do with how the world or humans work..
That sounds like your local scene is lacking veriety of wargames rather than the hobby being too expensive and you blame it on GW marketing and owning stores in which they naturaly want people play GW games....
Maybe try organise a wargaming club and promote non GW games and recruit into those rather than lazily blame GW for lack of people geting into war-gaming because GW is too expensive? GW absolutely does not have a monopoly on wargaming/tabletop gaming. Its certainly a brand with a lot of presance but as a community its the community job not to recruit people into GW as an entry and in the age of internet thats never been easier.
And if somebody wants to get into 40k because of black library .. nobody else is selling space marine miniatures so naturally they will charge what they want.. Thats how free market works.
My local club is thriving and 40k/AOS are only about 40% of what gets put down on the table on a regular night. A lot of antaras, wild west, x wing, KOW and varius board games etc.
Personally I like my eldar wraith contructs, their aesthetics and their lore... If another company would be making cool Eldar wraith constructs Id be buying those too for sure...Some of the Artel W stuff looked good but is actualy more expensive than GW for resin... so.... I will keep paying for their silly toy solidiers until I see other silly toy solidiers I like or their toy solidiers become too expensive for me to afford..
I think Mierce minatures make a veriaty of awesome sculpts for certain things and some of their kits are priced reasonably others less so. However there is not gaming presenace for their game but I still buy an occasional miniature from them. But the fact mierce game system and minatures are not too popular is due to me not doing my part and promoting it.
And for the record GW minatures are expensive as gak for the most part. Not saying they arent.. But are they too expensive ? That depends on the buyer. I certainly don't buy everything they sell and certainly not at full prices if I can help it and also wheel and flip stuff on ebay to fund the hobby..
You don't have to be 'very affluent' to be able to afford a £30 box of plastic models. And comparing GW's prices to the Berlin Wall is ludicrous.
At the end of the day GW prices do make me wince sometimes but I can afford them. I'm not a millionaire sitting in a golden mansion, just a run of the mill civil servant. I see GW's prices as a trade-off that has allowed them to i) continue trading fir decades, and ii) continue producing a busy release schedule of new high quality plastic kits. That's worth it to me.
Who are these mythical people for whom a £30 box of models is an iron curtain forbidding them from participating in the hobby, but when it was £25 last week everything was fine?
soviet13 wrote: You don't have to be 'very affluent' to be able to afford a £30 box of plastic models. And comparing GW's prices to the Berlin Wall is ludicrous.
At the end of the day GW prices do make me wince sometimes but I can afford them. I'm not a millionaire sitting in a golden mansion, just a run of the mill civil servant. I see GW's prices as a trade-off that has allowed them to i) continue trading fir decades, and ii) continue producing a busy release schedule of new high quality plastic kits. That's worth it to me.
Who are these mythical people for whom a £30 box of models is an iron curtain forbidding them from participating in the hobby, but when it was £25 last week everything was fine?
Yeah, yeah, we get it Argive, you're all right, good for you. Perhaps you'd like to move to my part of Essex and see the apathy, even amongst the affluent. I tried to get a club off the ground some 10 years ago. No-one was interested. 2 clubs in the area over a period of about 10 years folded for the exact same reasons - not enough people interested, premises too costly, can't really run it at people's homes due to homes being too small (although to be fair one had an issue with kids and snobby parents causing problems). That situation hasn't changed.
@soviet13 -
For many that £5 difference is the straw that breaks the camel's back. Quite a few people on here stating that if you care to read the thread. And given the current effect the current pandemic is having on the economy there are plenty of people who would normally be able to afford a £25 box set, who now are finding they cannot afford to absorb the regular GW price hikes.
It's quite insulting, and arrogant, to imply such people do not exist.
And no, I wasn't "comparing GW's prices" to the Berlin wall. You know full well I wasn't and stating that I am is what is ludicrous.
It is the attitude of people. Again, it's obviously something that many people simply cannot grasp.
Are people seriously saying everyone deserves to have GW minis, and those that keep buying at these prices are selfish. is that really someone's position?
Wow, just wow.
It's really simple mathematics. You have options, freedom to choose if you will. You can either afford to play as is, find a way to afford to play (different job, asset allocation etc) or you just can't afford it and move on. There are many ways to play this game at a cheaper level. sure, you're not meta chasing, playing FOTM, but you can still play.
But telling people they are selfish and having a woe is me attitude because people are paying current prices is simply a level of entitlement that is borderline sad.
You mean stating the truth. Of course it's a truth that you and certain others obviously find hard to grasp for one reason or another.
And of course you're entitled to your opinion. As am I.
You can have an opinion, but then cannot on the same page say it's an absolute truth. Doesn't work that way.
You said you have been in this hobby for 20-30 years (not going to go back and check, but think it was around that number). Well, my guess is you probably have enough models to continue playing this game...do you really need more? Is the shiny new so necessary to your enjoyment of the hobby?
No. Both can be in the same page, they are not mutually exclusive, one can state a truth, whilst also stating an opinion on the same page.
I'll use a factual example of how selfish people here in the UK are. I was a member of a reasonably well known, amongst the scale modelling hobby, closed off private forum. I paid for the "privilege". When this pandemic started in the UK the owner of the site stated point blank that he wanted no discussion of it. Furthermore when it was announced we were all to be "locked down" he also stated that no information about services available to help those in need was to be posted, despite helpful information generally not being publicised and not being easy to find. Because "he wanted to keep things "lite"". A couple of members were in that bracket of "being in need".
Since the "lockdown" in March he and his merry band of followers have continued to host live streams on Youtube and carry on as normal (that's fair enough). However despite being in a very good position to do something they've made no effort nor mention of any charitable efforts or helping anyone in need. Just concerns over how they're going to get their modelling supplies, what kit they're going to build next, and promoting themselves. A couple of members of the forum had to give up their membership due to current circumstances. It's only £4 per month and the site owner has always stated that he doesn't need the membership fees to survive. Might have been good for those people to be able to retain a membership, if only to help with their mental wellbeing.
They are not an isolated example. And I cancelled my membership on principle.
You think modellers and gamers aren't selfish? Think again.
As for the shiny new being necessary for my enjoyment. No it's not. Sure I'm in a relative "luxurious" position of having a ton of models.
That doesn't alter the facts of the player base being squeezed and people leaving or being put off of getting into the hobby. Knowing people who have left the hobby people don't tend to go play something else within the hobby, they get out of the hobby altogether.
It's all very well stating go play something else, but a) what if a person doesn't enjoy that something else, b) what if that person cannot get a game playing something else, and c) why should they? [rhetorical question - I know the trotted out response will be "'cos"].
This is ridiculous. It’s a niche hobby and one company sells their products at value. It’s supply and demand and if you don’t understand how that works time to take a basic economics class. GW is a business that has to turn a profit for its share holders. If a customer can’t afford their products it’s unfortunate but it’s not their issue.
Looks at the prices of smart phones. All the new phones are coming out at $1k now a days. That is ridiculous when I remember ten years ago buying a smart phone for like $100 and thinking I was ripped off. But people will still buy them.
Those prices, are at that level, however, not because of actual supply and demand, no matter how you dress it up, but because companies can get away with it. There is no actual demand for models at such inflated prices, I'm sure even whales would concede that they'd like to pay less, but there is no choice if you want a GW model.
I would have thought, that shareholders would want as much money coming in as possible, thus as many customers as possible, not to push people away, especially existing customers. I know if I were a shareholder, or even a small business owner, I would. My mistake. Durr guess I dun unnderstand basic ecceynomics.
It is everything to do with supply and demand. People still buy the products(demand), so the company continues to produce the product(supply). So long as customers buy the product the company will sell at the price point that nets them the most profit while there is still demand.
Once customers stop buying a specific product they stop producing or they shake up the company and discontinue a game or refresh a product line.
You’re making an assertion that lowering prices will increase sales or bring in new customers. I would rebuke that based on the fact that there are other companies producing miniatures at a lower price- why haven’t they taken over the market. Durr lower prices mean more money for company and more people can buy them. No..
GW could easily lower their prices and make just as much profit.
Look at how many people in this thread have stated they will lower or completely stop their investment in GW's product.
Are you seriously telling me, if those people go through with their thoughts, that's good for GW? Good for the hobby? How many people have GW alienated and lost out on sales from over the past 10-15 years?!
Turning away existing customers because what money they could spend is not enough, is good business.
Azreal13 wrote: Lol, this thread has got to the point where both sides are arguing so ineptly i have neither the time nor desire to unpick it all.
No, please do. Would be interesting to hear from a supposed shareholder (that was your implication earlier in the thread wasn't it?) just exactly what the motivation is for alienating many of your existing customers...
Would be nice to have a "budget" for hobbies each month...
I think it also comes down to a perceived prestige thing. GW have positioned themselves, or try to, as the Rolls Royce, Bentley, Aston Martin, Pagani, Ferrari etc. of the hobby. Many whales see themselves as being above others simply because they can afford to buy GW products. Much in the same way owners of said car brands do...
Don't wish ill on anyone but hopefully the current and forthcoming economic crisis due to the current pandemic will adjust some of the selfish attitudes...
Been saying for years the selfish attitudes displayed by many of the more affluent gamers are causing the player base to shrink, and around most of the UK it has done from what I can tell, despite GW posting massive profits. The bigger global markets, like the US tournament scene, are where GW have grown, but then that's where we seem to get the negative attitudes from...
The only problem with this statement is that the player base is growing, not shrinking. Each year for the past 4 years LVO has shattered it's attendee record for 40K Champs, if memory serves last year they hit nearly 600. Most of the other game stores in my area also see much more interest in their products. My local store in my small community has had their 40K sales surpass their MTG sales six months in a row now.
There isn't anything selfish about me being honest, I love the game, I support the company. If you don't, that's fine. You have the freedom to choose what to spend your money on and when.
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Rob Lee wrote: GW could easily lower their prices and make just as much profit.
Look at how many people in this thread have stated they will lower or completely stop their investment in GW's product.
Are you seriously telling me, if those people go through with their thoughts, that's good for GW? Good for the hobby? How many people have GW alienated and lost out on sales from over the past 10-15 years?!
Turning away existing customers because what money they could spend is not enough, is good business.
I've heard it all now.
50 people in an internet thread, on a site that probably less than 20% of the community of players visit or have accounts on.
Your assertion is wrong. GW lowering prices wouldn’t increase demand. Charging less for something doesn’t produce more profit???
Some people on the internet told you they would buy more products from GW if the prices were less..cool all these comments don’t make a fraction of the sales GW has.
You’re speaking nonsense. GW is a billion £ corporation that has an obligation to its share holders to turn a solid profit. They’re diversifying their product and cashing in on a multitude of different revenue streams. Increasing their prices on select products will give them an indication of product demand and turn a profit on those products that their is still a demand for. If a product doesn’t have any demand they will probably discontinue it.
They aren’t turning away customers. You can buy whatever you want.
Azreal13 wrote: Lol, this thread has got to the point where both sides are arguing so ineptly i have neither the time nor desire to unpick it all.
No, please do. Would be interesting to hear from a supposed shareholder (that was your implication earlier in the thread wasn't it?) just exactly what the motivation is for alienating many of your existing customers...
See, you've got such a tenuous grip on the conversation you don't even realise a joke when you see it.
The reason i knew it was nonsense was because that's not how shareholding works, outside of some limited voting rights in matters that are nearly always foregone conclusions at the AGM, all shareholders do is collect their dividend and watch their initial investment increase in value. If either of these things ceases to perform in the way the shareholder wishes, they don't storm into the boardroom insisting the company change its policy, they just sell their stake and move on.
In the very specific case of GW there may be an argument that Kirby, as the largest individual shareholder, may hold some sway, but that would have more to do with his still holding a non executive position than with his stake.
You're in the US. I'm talking about the UK. Well aware that overseas markets are growing.
As for how many people - it's wider than just this online community. Please don't be so intentionally obtuse/naive.
Perhaps though not where you are, what with the big cons, like LVO, Adepticon etc. How they going for ya this year, hmm?
Okay, I'm going to stop and give you that. I have heard in the past that the UK market even plays the game vastly differently than the US market does. And it makes sense that you would also have a different type of consumer culture.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Your assertion is wrong. GW lowering prices wouldn’t increase demand. Charging less for something doesn’t produce more profit??? They aren’t turning away customers. You can buy whatever you want.
Never stated more profit. I said as much.
Bit simplistic, but I'll try anyhow - 10 people buy a product costing each 10 bits of gold. That's 100 bits of gold. 100 people buy the same product at 1 bit of gold...
No don't tell me, even simple maths like that is broken in business terms...
As for turning away customers, I thought they just announced yet another price hike, meaning people have to choose whether to spend the same for less, simply less with them or not spend at all...
Sounds like pushing away existing customers to me.
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Azreal13 wrote: [
See, you've got such a tenuous grip on the conversation you don't even realise a joke when you see it.
The reason i knew it was nonsense was because that's not how shareholding works, outside of some limited voting rights in matters that are nearly always foregone conclusions at the AGM, all shareholders do is collect their dividend and watch their initial investment increase in value. If either of these things ceases to perform in the way the shareholder wishes, they don't storm into the boardroom insisting the company change its policy, they just sell their stake and move on.
In the very specific case of GW there may be an argument that Kirby, as the largest individual shareholder, may hold some sway, but that would have more to do with his still holding a non executive position than with his stake.
Actually, I just wanted to see if you would expand on what you were inferring.
I wasn't the one originally stating shareholders were at fault. They don't seem to be turning away from GW in droves though...
Jjohnso11 wrote: Your assertion is wrong. GW lowering prices wouldn’t increase demand. Charging less for something doesn’t produce more profit???
Never stated more profit. I said as much.
Bit simplistic, but I'll try anyhow - 10 people buy a product costing each 10 bits of gold. That's 100 bits of gold. 100 people buy the same product at 1 bit of gold...
No don't tell me, even simple maths like that is broken in business terms...
[quote=]
They aren’t turning away customers. You can buy whatever you want.
Oh silly me. I thought they just announced yet another price hike, meaning people have to choose whether to spend the same for less, simply less with them or not spend at all...
Sounds like pushing away existing customers to me.
I would make the following statement about the price hike on older kits: I think it's foolish to buy older kits that have a high chance of getting completely redone in the next 2-4 years. We know that the likely business plan is to phase out all of the old line and make sure the entire 40K product line is up to the same modern standards. Buying Berserkers or Boyz right now just isn't a wise investment anyway, which might be some of the reason prices on those kits went up.
Y'all need to look up elasticity of demand/price sensitivity then come back when you've a clue what you're arguing.
In short, lower margins can mean increased volumes and therefore more profit. But then, maybe it won't.
If you're the head of a publicly traded company turning over millions, you going to make that call when you're already selling product about as fast as you can make it, and sometimes faster?
Aren't non-GW gaming clubs (before pandemic) really popular in the UK? I always seem to see social media and blog posts about all sorts of games being played in the UK. Frostgrave? Gaslands? All sorts of historical gaming events? What's keeping warhammer interested people from doing likewise?
I agree that people willing to pay more allows a company to charge more. That's a pretty basic concept. GW had record sales and profits after they introduced start collecting at 50 pounds and they still had it after they upped the price over 50 pounds. Had their sales dipped, then they could have gone back to 50 pounds to restore their number sold. But it didn't. So they didn't.
None of this should be controversial, right? And you're just saying that purchaser is just as involved in the transaction as the seller? That shouldn't be a crazy thing to say either.
You think that if GW lowers the price of a Space Marine my wife will suddenly buy a box because they are a good deal? She would never have heard of/nor had an interest in little plastic soldiers.
Your simple math doesn’t work because the customers you’re saying will suddenly start buying the products don’t exist in the numbers you’re using. Reducing the price of a product doesn’t increase demand ten fold.
Simple business math.
a) Demand is 10 customers. Supply is 10 products. Price is market value.
b) Demand is 100 customers. Supply is 50 products. Price is above market value.
c) Demand is 50 customers. Supply is 100 products. Price is below market value.
Which example do you think is GW? If I go on eBay right now and try to find that Catachan limited release do you think he’s b?
It sounds like the are checking their product line for if there is a demand.
Chamberlain wrote: Aren't non-GW gaming clubs (before pandemic) really popular in the UK? I always seem to see social media and blog posts about all sorts of games being played in the UK. Frostgrave? Gaslands? All sorts of historical gaming events? What's keeping warhammer interested people from doing likewise?
I can only speak from personal experience on this.
Such clubs seem to be in the larger cities or in very "middle England" areas. Where I live, despite being full of affluent commuters, clubs have failed every time. Usually, as I've stated before, due to costs of hosting them combined with lack of interest. Unless you have a large house, and can accommodate a large group of friends, you can't just go and setup a club. Venues want paying, you have to have insurance, there's issues over who and what the insurance will cover, loads of other stuff that gets in the way.
Don't get me wrong, but it's great if you happen to be lucky enough to live in areas of the UK where there are successful clubs. It's just those clubs seem to be fewer in number than in the past in my experience. There doesn't seem to be much of a club network for sharing stuff, most clubs appear to be isolated to their own areas, unless I'm missing something. One could spend weeks trawling Facebook and still not really find anything useful. And I'm only aware of one convention, and that's in the south (east or west, I forget). GW even put a stop to Games Day for a while as I recall.
I grew up, in the late 80s, into the early 90s, with after school games clubs being a thing in my area, good luck finding one of those in my area bringing fresh meat into the hobby now.
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Jjohnso11 wrote: You think that if GW lowers the price of a Space Marine...
Your wife might not. Existing players probably would. That's part of the point I'm trying to make here. One which you are intentionally dismissing.
Do you not think that existing players would like to pay less? No don't tell me, everyone is happy about paying more and wouldn't buy more or get a friend involved if the prices were lowered. That's basically your logic.
My logic is they are a business trying to turn a profit. I can’t fault the niche hobby company for increasing prices when demand has increased. It’s good business and it if they are doing it correct it will keep them in business producing high quality plastic toy soldiers.
Trying. They already turn 50-70 million a year profit.
For the six months to December 1 2019 their profits rose 44%.
They are hardly struggling, I doubt they'll even struggle that much during the current circumstances. And I'd debate the "high quality", especially where many units get overlooked for new releases. The plastic Catachans were poorly moulded when they were released, that was at least 15 years ago, probably even more, and I bought a box!!
The Khorne Berserkers are in desperate need of a refresh also.
Like I also said in a previous post, some of the their metal models, circa late 90s and onwards, have better defined details than current plastic ones.
Oh and finecast (although that brand name has been conveniently "retired"), oh the horror stories I've seen. A guy I know of, bought a FW Avenger (?), and posted his build of it in a youtube series, yeah, the canopy was all frosted, and parts were bent. I know resin has a habit of doing that, but GW's resin has a reputation...
Do you not think that existing players would like to pay less? No don't tell me, everyone is happy about paying more and wouldn't buy more or get a friend involved if the prices were lowered. That's basically your logic.
Wasn't there also a decade where GW had massive price hikes and their sales volume fell year over year over year until they got a new CEO and then start collecting happened, actually talking to the customer happened and they went from a decline to record sales and profit?
I think they should have held the start collecting at 50 pounds and been committed to being accessible to new people, but I understand that they were at production capacity and couldn't have taken advantage of it right then anyway.
It will be quite some time before we see what the pandemic does for GW sales numbers. It's possible that they'll have to radically drop prices to compete for less disposable income in a pandemic induced depression or they might decide to radically increase prices in hopes that every project gets profitable on release day even at low sales numbers. Maybe this will be the start of another decade long cycle of jacking up prices to make up for falling volume?
Wasn't there also a decade where GW had massive price hikes and their sales volume fell year over year over year until they got a new CEO and then start collecting happened, actually talking to the customer happened and they went from a decline to record sales and profit?
,,,Maybe this will be the start of another decade long cycle of jacking up prices to make up for falling volume?
Think so. To be honest I pretty much went away from the hobby/didn't pay attention to GWs goings on between about '05 and '15, I met, on a train, someone who worked in a "local" GW store once around '05-'10 and she wasn't complimentary about what was gong on with GW at the time. Came back to find GW had thrown a hissy fit over IP, WFB had ceased to be and prices had risen massively.
Rob Lee wrote: GW could easily lower their prices and make just as much profit.
Evidence? Keep in mind if you halve the price you need to MORE than double the sales to keep profits same. If you just double the # of kits you sell with halving price you DECREASE your profit...Good job!
GW is interested in one thing only: Profit. They don't do price hikes just for sake of higher price. High price isn't the end goal. It's the road to the end goal(higher profits). GW increases prices because it keeps giving them higher profits. It's all about maximizing profits.
They have incidentally tried cheaper price points for new kits so they have some idea on actual effect releasing new kit at lower price band than usual has. Clearly profit HASN'T increased.
If they lose some customers but get more profits it's good deal for GW.
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Rob Lee wrote: Trying. They already turn 50-70 million a year profit.
For the six months to December 1 2019 their profits rose 44%.
Yes. And if they didn't keep rising prices their profits wouldn't have rose as much. They aren't in here to keep same profits as before. Whole western economy system DEPENDS on everything growing including profits. Simply staying same isn't good enough. Got to keep increasing profits. And for that: Price hikes since they have been working just fine.
As long as price hikes=bigger profits the GW will keep increasing. Because GW wants to keep increasing profits.
You assume they are in for charity. They are not. They are in it for profits. Lotsa profits. More and more profits.
Argive wrote:
It is supply and demand.. And GW is supplying .. people are buying ... Seems to be working in the parameters of free market.
Jjohnso11 wrote:
Simple business math.
a) Demand is 10 customers. Supply is 10 products. Price is market value.
b) Demand is 100 customers. Supply is 50 products. Price is above market value.
c) Demand is 50 customers. Supply is 100 products. Price is below market value.
Which example do you think is GW? If I go on eBay right now and try to find that Catachan limited release do you think he’s b?
It sounds like the are checking their product line for if there is a demand.
why do you think that GW price is market driven?
GW has a monopol on GW Minis, there is no market they need to compete and if the Supply is 100 but the demand is 50, GW will increase the price so that those 50 pay for the 50 that are not selling as well.
GW has made clear some time ago how they calculate their prices, the kit itself needs to pay for its investment (design, casting, marketing, storage etc) in at the release weekend, everything is considered "failed"
So they take the expected sales of the box and price it in the way that it will pay off. Something that is expected to sell less at release is higher than something that is expected to sell more.
but there is no market behind of supply and demand as no matter how high the demand is or if the demand changes over time the price will be set for expected sales at release
the yearly price adjustments are there to get costumer used to specific values of models kits before they release a new one and GW constanly testing were the red line in pricing is.
the release something overpriced just to see if people still paying for it or not, and if not it will be released in a box that offers a huge "saving" (f2p mobile games buisness model)
also GW does not want to sell more, they have found their sweetspot with size of production, and selling more would mean to increase production which means a big investment in something not needed.
so the price is also set at a value were they sell what they can produce, and if they start to sell more, they increase the prices to get back to this sweet spot again.
tneva82 wrote:
Rob Lee wrote: GW could easily lower their prices and make just as much profit.
Evidence? Keep in mind if you halve the price you need to MORE than double the sales to keep profits same. If you just double the # of kits you sell with halving price you DECREASE your profit...Good job
no, otherwise we would not see box sets like start collecting boxes or similar that let save something on the kits.
the already payed off but they cannot lower the initial price for the single box to sell more, the same as they cannot lower the price if they crosed a line with it and it is not selling at all, but they can make Christmas boxes, Start Collecting boxes, Stand Alone Game or 2 Player Campaign boxes that people will buy without changing the original price.
because as soon as GW lowers the price, as standard market of supply and demand would suggest, their initial pricing would be questioned much more
so there is also the problem of luxury goods, that once you reached a point you cannot go back without loosing your luxury reputation
Price rises are inevitable. I don't like it, but so what.
You can't say the player base will shrink or leave without proving it.
If you're making a definitive statement, you'll need to prove that statement. And that means going beyond your local gaming group. Things likes quarterly sales reports will tell you very fast if more or less are being sold.
Jjohnso11 wrote: Looks at the prices of smart phones. All the new phones are coming out at $1k now a days. That is ridiculous when I remember ten years ago buying a smart phone for like $100 and thinking I was ripped off. But people will still buy them.
You... must not have looked very hard. Or outside of a certain couple of manufacturers.
Moopy wrote: Price rises are inevitable. I don't like it, but so what.
You can't say the player base will shrink or leave without proving it.
If you're making a definitive statement, you'll need to prove that statement. And that means going beyond your local gaming group. Things likes quarterly sales reports will tell you very fast if more or less are being sold.
I said I suspect. Call it an educated guess if you will. Difficult to accept that I may actually be right though, I know.
If you really want proof though, go back and look at the time when GW were starting to engage in gouging people, look at how sales dropped off and GW were having problems (as I understand it, I wasn't keeping tabs on GW at the time), and that was without a pandemic stuffing people's economic futures up...
History teaches a great many things if you can be bothered learning.
Have a golf clap if you're not going to be affected. Well done you.
After this graph the trend continues upwards until covid-19 hit. We have no idea what the financial situation is atm.
IMHO: to understand this price increase there are 2 Things that can explain it. And it is a departure from what their CEO wrote in last year's financial report. He said they would only be increasing prices by always making then next release X% more expensive(I believe it was something like 2 or 3%)
1) GW can't handle their usual volume of sales due to social distancing, people pending less etc. . So if you want to keep your profits level you need to increase prices. BTW given their production issues last year A case could be made they should have raised prices even then. I'm glad they didn't.
2)Other things have become more expensive. I don't know about the UK but here in Belgium pretty much everyhting has either seen prices collapse (like fuel) or a price increase. Including on base rescources. It could be GW is simply following that general trend.
What's annoying with all the whales and their "if you can't afford it, don't" attitude, is that we need new players.
We all know GW is the entrance to the hobby in general for a lot of youngsters. As those get priced out, there's less and less gamers in general. Yes GW can keep feeding on the whales for years to come. As the whale numbers decrease, the prices can go up to keep the profit the same, so it won't affect GW for a very long time.
The other problem is that if GW prices are going up, other companies follow. This is fair enough if production costs or wages are going up, but to keep increasing prices for pure shareholder profit, and it going on to affect the entire hobby. Not good.
TLDR.
1. Ridiculously high prices = less new blood into the hobby = less people to play against
2. Other companies raise prices to keep just a bit behind GW = bad for all
For new players, some armies are cheaper than others. There are always 'cheap' ways into 40k.
Price rises happen every year. How many kits went up in price? The OP's quote says 400 of 3,000 products.
I was not a universal price-rise, and lots of kits have not changed.
Gimgamgoo wrote: What's annoying with all the whales and their "if you can't afford it, don't" attitude, is that we need new players.
We all know GW is the entrance to the hobby in general for a lot of youngsters. As those get priced out, there's less and less gamers in general. Yes GW can keep feeding on the whales for years to come. As the whale numbers decrease, the prices can go up to keep the profit the same, so it won't affect GW for a very long time.
The other problem is that if GW prices are going up, other companies follow. This is fair enough if production costs or wages are going up, but to keep increasing prices for pure shareholder profit, and it going on to affect the entire hobby. Not good.
TLDR.
1. Ridiculously high prices = less new blood into the hobby = less people to play against
2. Other companies raise prices to keep just a bit behind GW = bad for all
Especially on the new blood side, i have seen a lot of guys attempt to get into the hobby because of TW Warhammer, lore , etc.
When they first look at the prices it's a dropoff quota of about 50%, not to mention that a lot of people will drop out because of the local community, which may or may not be accepting of new people, or small games, which may or may not be large enough to field multiple types of game as in competitive laid back, narative and so forth.
And then there is the issue of the Rules bloat respectively drought depending on what faction you are playing. Even just fielding 1 army at an decent pointlevel often requires alot of time and effort, getting then constantly beaten because some factions just get more or better rules or your specific faction get's ignored for a whole edition or in some cases even more certainly doesn't help it either, i was at a point in 8th which my R&H basically just got shelved , if it weren't for the fact that i had a halffinished CSM army lying around i'd have dropped out completely.
And there are multiple such factions which basically had players drop out due to that.
e) They don't look like they belong in 40K, because they dont. If you like them, cool. Why we're talking about them in relation to 40K?
Because one person mentioned that Mantic did a snarky "price adjustment" annoucement in imitation of GW but actually lowered prices by 15%, and this massively triggered people whose families were murdered by Mantic so we got a few pages of off-topic gakking on their quality.
I hate the price increases, yet I have kept on buying and therefore accept I am part of the problem/my own worst enemy.
However, there will be a tipping point. Of course many people can afford it currently and will continue to buy, but they must surely reach a point where this stops being the case and I think they're almost there.
But only when GW's bottom line is affected will there be any change to their pricing policy.
I've been in this hobby since 1987. As far back as I can remember people have said that GW's prices are too high and they're about to price themselves out of the market.
What's actually happened is that GW have continued to trade and expand (admittedly things were a bit wobbly for a few years but they got through it) while their nearest competitors, with lower prices that GW 'clearly ought to emulate' have all eventually gone out of business.
I think GW know what they are doing. And I don't mind my eyes watering at the prices now and again if it means that GW is guaranteed to be around tomorrow, next year, and in 10 years. And not just 'around' but continuing to put out loads of plastic kits including characters, subfactions, and specialist games - stuff that is risky, that might not sell, that we wouldn't get if they were just scraping by.
soviet13 wrote: I've been in this hobby since 1987. As far back as I can remember people have said that GW's prices are too high and they're about to price themselves out of the market.
at least here we had the period during mid 5th edition until late 7th edition were people welcomed the change in price coming with the new plastic boxes and that they were in the right size to start units (instead of the old 10+3 box+blister stuff)
also some historical gamers started playing as a plastic Warhammer or 40k army was equal or cheaper than a full metal historical one
the big "GW prices are too high" complaining started here after the release of the fantasy Greatsword Box, as it was the first time the plastic kit was more expensive than the metal models it replaced
(before that it was just an expensive hobby, after that the complaining about their prices never ended)
Rob Lee wrote: The plastic Catachans were poorly moulded when they were released, that was at least 15 years ago, probably even more, and I bought a box!!
Try 1999. I bought a box in the Glasgow GW store then went to watch The Blair Witch Project!!
They seemed so fresh and new back then especially with 20 in the box. Relatively cheap, very large Imperial Guard armies seemed like they could be a thing.
I went back to the 2nd Ed metals. I still love the commlink bits though.
Rob Lee wrote: The plastic Catachans were poorly moulded when they were released, that was at least 15 years ago, probably even more, and I bought a box!!
Try 1999. I bought a box in the Glasgow GW store then went to watch The Blair Witch Project!!
They seemed so fresh and new back then especially with 20 in the box. Relatively cheap, very large Imperial Guard armies seemed like they could be a thing.
I went back to the 2nd Ed metals. I still love the commlink bits though.
OK, wow, didn't think they were that old, possibly when I bought them as well then, around that time. I've only got the remnants of the sprues left of mine, handy for Lasguns for Necromunda. Can't recall what I did with the actual models.
The poor deserve to have hobbies and luxuries as much as you do mate.
I never said they don't deserve to have hobbies. Just that they don't "deserve" a specific one which is only one company of many in a single market. Just like you can't justify everyone having a DSLR camera or a drone etc.. There are many hobbies that simply price people out; you can't guilt trip fans nor a company into supporting a market they aren't aiming for. GW isn't aiming for the bottom end of affordability with their product; its not a market they are "chasing". Other companies ARE chasing or at least are affordable to those markets.
You can wargame on the cheap; perhaps it means you have to put a ibt more effort into promoting the game locally for your area, but otherwise there are cheap options. GW, Mantic, PP, etc.... none of the companies are required (legally nor morally) to make their products affordable to all. I'm sure GW and others do their best (within the bounds of also making a profit and income) to keep their price as low as they can.
And this is okay with you that people who want to enter a hobby are barred from it by their financial circumstances?
Fun fact: The Landraider is now effectively £117 in Japan!
For all of you trying to say "people still whined in the 90s that it was too expensive" should try to remember if it cost that much back then.
But if GW are still making profits overall, I guess it's fine, because only looking at short-term profits is a flawless system, and there have never been busts, crashes, or recessions in human history.
Second fun fact: I've only been able to get onto the GW website from June 1st, after the site was 'down for maintenance' since before the hikes were announced. The hikes were never announced in Japanese.
Swear to god it seems like some of the people so fervently defending GWs trash business practices are feeling personally attacked by people saying "yeah, this is a silly price for little space men, I think it isn't clever to pay that much money" while they themselves add another unpainted box of them to their pile, instead of doing something enriching with that cash.
Goldswords started it, Warhammer being deleted finished it.
AoS with it's "jump like a squig hopper, paint your face green and scream waaagh as loud as you can for +20 dice" rules was pretty much just an act of grave defilement by the time it came out.
IMO, Necromunda re-release is the only GW release where they've done everything right recently. Great new models, rules retain the fun of the old version, low price point, haven't run a bulldozer through the background or done a CCG-style release schedule like underworlds. Only GW game that has real traction at my club.
The poor deserve to have hobbies and luxuries as much as you do mate.
I never said they don't deserve to have hobbies. Just that they don't "deserve" a specific one which is only one company of many in a single market. Just like you can't justify everyone having a DSLR camera or a drone etc.. There are many hobbies that simply price people out; you can't guilt trip fans nor a company into supporting a market they aren't aiming for. GW isn't aiming for the bottom end of affordability with their product; its not a market they are "chasing". Other companies ARE chasing or at least are affordable to those markets.
You can wargame on the cheap; perhaps it means you have to put a ibt more effort into promoting the game locally for your area, but otherwise there are cheap options. GW, Mantic, PP, etc.... none of the companies are required (legally nor morally) to make their products affordable to all. I'm sure GW and others do their best (within the bounds of also making a profit and income) to keep their price as low as they can.
And this is okay with you that people who want to enter a hobby are barred from it by their financial circumstances?
Not saying I agree with it, but financially speaking there are obviously things you can't do because of financial circumstances and that obviously applies to hobbies.
For example, I would like to have my own house and yet that is something I cannot do right now (buying a house or even renting one has become a luxury in my country of origin).
While it would be better if products were fairly priced, rather than priced for huge profits, that is not the reality we live in (smartphones are priced for something that has nothing to do with actual value, but rather the status).
And this is okay with you that people who want to enter a hobby are barred from it by their financial circumstances?
In a word, yes.
Harsh, but ultimately the world works on capitalism, and it is a harsh mistress. However, we're not talking about being able to afford bread and milk here - it's a luxury hobby.
I'm not sure where this rationale ends. What if these same people decide they don't want to play Warhammer, they want to get into SCUBA diving, or sky diving, or golf, or yachting, or motor racing...
Are people seriously saying everyone deserves to have GW minis, and those that keep buying at these prices are selfish. is that really someone's position?
Wow, just wow.
It's really simple mathematics. You have options, freedom to choose if you will. You can either afford to play as is, find a way to afford to play (different job, asset allocation etc) or you just can't afford it and move on. There are many ways to play this game at a cheaper level. sure, you're not meta chasing, playing FOTM, but you can still play.
But telling people they are selfish and having a woe is me attitude because people are paying current prices is simply a level of entitlement that is borderline sad.
Yes. Yes everyone that wants to deserves to be able to play GW games in an ideal society, just as they deserve to have good housing and quality food. Now that's pure utopianism post scarcity, but it is the moral ideal. That you find that utterly ludicrous is, well, not great.
But beyond the moral ideal, the prices GW is charging for their products are not a reflection of any level of social good, they could be lower and maintain a profit. Indeed they could be lower and probably garner MORE profit. I'd love to see the profits of forgeworld before and after they "equalized" (raised) prices for literally the entire world except UK. I suspect Forge world's growth.... slowed. So even without the utopian ideal, GW could strive to be more inclusive likely without sacrificing much, if any, profit.
And the idea that you can just get a "different job" is so mired in entitled privilege that it's kind of laughable. Most people I find don't put too much thought into the interconnected nature of the modern economy and how the business practices of even a model producing hobby company reflect poorly upon it (and not even the most poorly, compared to many companies, GW is saintly in their treatment of employees and doesn't dodge taxes as relentlessly), so i do spend some time tying to get them to connect their passion to something bigger. People literally work 10 hour days every day for a year to barely afford to live. I know people who work those kind of hours that have, previously, loved GW games and simply been utterly priced out. So yes, you, personally, are selfish.
Argive wrote:
It is supply and demand.. And GW is supplying .. people are buying ... Seems to be working in the parameters of free market.
Jjohnso11 wrote:
Simple business math.
a) Demand is 10 customers. Supply is 10 products. Price is market value.
b) Demand is 100 customers. Supply is 50 products. Price is above market value.
c) Demand is 50 customers. Supply is 100 products. Price is below market value.
Which example do you think is GW? If I go on eBay right now and try to find that Catachan limited release do you think he’s b?
It sounds like the are checking their product line for if there is a demand.
why do you think that GW price is market driven?
GW has a monopol on GW Minis, there is no market they need to compete and if the Supply is 100 but the demand is 50, GW will increase the price so that those 50 pay for the 50 that are not selling as well.
GW has made clear some time ago how they calculate their prices, the kit itself needs to pay for its investment (design, casting, marketing, storage etc) in at the release weekend, everything is considered "failed"
So they take the expected sales of the box and price it in the way that it will pay off. Something that is expected to sell less at release is higher than something that is expected to sell more.
but there is no market behind of supply and demand as no matter how high the demand is or if the demand changes over time the price will be set for expected sales at release
the yearly price adjustments are there to get costumer used to specific values of models kits before they release a new one and GW constanly testing were the red line in pricing is.
the release something overpriced just to see if people still paying for it or not, and if not it will be released in a box that offers a huge "saving" (f2p mobile games buisness model)
also GW does not want to sell more, they have found their sweetspot with size of production, and selling more would mean to increase production which means a big investment in something not needed.
so the price is also set at a value were they sell what they can produce, and if they start to sell more, they increase the prices to get back to this sweet spot again.
tneva82 wrote:
Rob Lee wrote: GW could easily lower their prices and make just as much profit.
Evidence? Keep in mind if you halve the price you need to MORE than double the sales to keep profits same. If you just double the # of kits you sell with halving price you DECREASE your profit...Good job
no, otherwise we would not see box sets like start collecting boxes or similar that let save something on the kits.
the already payed off but they cannot lower the initial price for the single box to sell more, the same as they cannot lower the price if they crosed a line with it and it is not selling at all, but they can make Christmas boxes, Start Collecting boxes, Stand Alone Game or 2 Player Campaign boxes that people will buy without changing the original price.
because as soon as GW lowers the price, as standard market of supply and demand would suggest, their initial pricing would be questioned much more
so there is also the problem of luxury goods, that once you reached a point you cannot go back without loosing your luxury reputation
This hits the nail on the head. GW pricing isn't driven by a perfectly free market of supply and demand that literally does not exist outside the dreams of people who don't actually know much about markets.
GW curates its price and its markets. The price rises aren't incidental, and they are, in fact, deliberately pricing people out of the hobby. People defending price rises are either purely egoist, or worse.
GW probably have fewer customers - people have been made redundant, or furloughed on 80% pay and so lost much of their disposable income.
But then there's that other group of middle, the middle-class, 30-somethings who also make up a good portion of GW customers, who are still employed, working from home, and have a load of excess money at the moment because there's no chance of going on holiday this year, no gigs to go to, no festivals, no cinema, no theatre, no eating out, no travel costs - they've got a tonne more disposable income.
Those people can afford the increased prices (for now) and it might help bridge the losses from many people having to just stop buying hobby stuff entirely. It makes sense from that perspective.
Is it consumer friendly? No of course not. But honestly it's the most understandable GW price increase in years.
GW probably have fewer customers - people have been made redundant, or furloughed on 80% pay and so lost much of their disposable income.
But then there's that other group of middle, the middle-class, 30-somethings who also make up a good portion of GW customers, who are still employed, working from home, and have a load of excess money at the moment because there's no chance of going on holiday this year, no gigs to go to, no festivals, no cinema, no theatre, no eating out, no travel costs - they've got a tonne more disposable income.
Those people can afford the increased prices (for now) and it might help bridge the losses from many people having to just stop buying hobby stuff entirely. It makes sense from that perspective.
Is it consumer friendly? No of course not. But honestly it's the most understandable GW price increase in years.
No no, that will be understandable for the NEXT price rise.
Companies the size of GW plan out their budgets way in advance. This isn't spur of the moment, likely these prices were pegged to be risen a year ago, and if anything outside an eye for greed influenced it, it would be insulating the company for Brexit.
Of course in the truly free market that some people think we have, I wouldn't have to say things like likely or usually, we'd have easy access to GW financials. Because a truly free market is reliant of easy access of information between two parties.
lord_blackfang wrote: Because one person mentioned that Mantic did a snarky "price adjustment" annoucement in imitation of GW but actually lowered prices by 15%, and this massively triggered people whose families were murdered by Mantic so we got a few pages of off-topic gakking on their quality.
Some people in this thread were acting like Mantic's announcement was the peak of comedic genius and really knocked GW down a peg. To some of us, it just came off like the nerdy kid in Stranger Things trying to show off for his girlfriend by talking back to the sheriff. One user snarkily remarked that all three Mantic players must really be proud.
I'm all for social justice and the redistribution of wealth but putting the onus on a manufacturer of plastic spacemen to start the revolution is a bit much. They're not exploiting the vulnerable. They're not extorting people for basic services. They're just selling some slighly expensive toys. Why shouldn't they charge whatever they think will make them the most money?
And this is okay with you that people who want to enter a hobby are barred from it by their financial circumstances?
I don't see how this could ever not be the case, barring some post-scarcity science fiction future. Things cost money, and people only have a finite amount of money. This is a hobby involving little plastic models. It's a luxury.
soviet13 wrote: I'm all for social justice and the redistribution of wealth but putting the onus on a manufacturer of plastic spacemen to start the revolution is a bit much. They're not exploiting the vulnerable. They're not extorting people for basic services. They're just selling some slighly expensive toys. Why shouldn't they charge whatever they think will make them the most money?
And this is okay with you that people who want to enter a hobby are barred from it by their financial circumstances?
I don't see how this could ever not be the case, barring some post-scarcity science fiction future. Things cost money, and people only have a finite amount of money. This is a hobby involving little plastic models. It's a luxury.
Are you sure you're really for the 'redistribution of wealth? because it doesnt sound like you are. generally people who are for that sort of thing don't talk about' companies being able to charge what they like', or 'luxuries' Your views are all over the place.
How surprising to find so many experts all in a single thread! :p
Now, I really *am* an expert in a lot of these areas (I teach marketing and management at a top10 university). I'm not going to respond to every single post here, but thought I'd just give a few summary points:
1) Things cost money.
2) GW doesn't *owe* you anything.
3) This is a hobby, not a religion.
4) There are a lot more costs involved in producing models than you may think.
5) GW doesn't want you to buy all of the products in one go. While volume is important, it's more about repeat purchases
5b) Also, don't forget the associated time and effort that individuals invest in a box of miniatures. It's not so simple as to say 'more sales = good, less sales = bad'
6) One person's personal experience DOES NOT = truth.
And finally (for now at least...), whatever your stance on GW pricing, I think it's fair to say there are now more ways to enter the GW Hobby(TM) than ever before -- and at many different price points. This is something GW has done really well of late, and has helped foster a resurgence in hobby activity, and has brought a lot of new people into the hobby from all sorts of angles. The part work magazines have been a great hit in drawing in a different breed of gamers (a friendlier, less beardy new audience), plus video games, funkopop etc. Remember: you don't need to buy a 2k point army before you start contributing to GW's profits.
scarletsquig wrote: IMO, Necromunda re-release is the only GW release where they've done everything right recently.
Say what now??? Are you kidding me?
A drip-fed release, with increasingly contradictory rule books, all of which were invalidated once they were all out, and are being replaced again, combined with slow release schedule, gaps in the line that are still around from the first set of books, and constant problems with the rules.
Done everything right? Necromunda is the perfect example of when the "Early Access" model from Steam is applied to a tabletop game. Newcromunda's release has been a disaster almost right from the start.
scarletsquig wrote: IMO, Necromunda re-release is the only GW release where they've done everything right recently.
Say what now??? Are you kidding me?
A drip-fed release, with increasingly contradictory rule books, all of which were invalidated once they were all out, and are being replaced again, combined with slow release schedule, gaps in the line that are still around from the first set of books, and constant problems with the rules.
Done everything right? Necromunda is the perfect example of when the "Early Access" model from Steam is applied to a tabletop game. Newcromunda's release has been a disaster almost right from the start.
I'll give you lotr then. Stable rules, very good balance, all profiles in 2 books, rules in a 3rd, all expansions have valuable content and much of the content they even upload as a pdf on the site. Continuing releases of new models. The only downside is that some of the older models are sometimes not available for months. And a high amount of failcast, especially on the hobbit front.
MJRyder wrote: 5) GW doesn't want you to buy all of the products in one go.
Um, yeah they do. Half the stuff they release sells out within a week or two, or six months at the most. The army models they release for 40k and AoS stick around, but every two army box, card set, dice pack, discount bundle, terrain set, and optional expansion do not. Go check out how many Kill Team products GW still sells. While you are there, check if they have the Warcry starter set or any Necromunda cards, Blood Bowl pitches, or board games before Blackstone Fortress. Do you like two army battle boxes? Too bad! They don't even make it through the entire pre-order period.
Edit: I'll be honest, if I could find GW products after release, I would have a policy to not get GW stuff anymore. If I could wait on stuff, saving up to get it, and then get it at my leisure (assuming I didn't find something better value elsewhere first), I could live with that. I'd buy less stuff, spend less overall, and be happier with the stuff that I did buy and the price I paid for it. But the pressure to buy now or forever miss out makes GW a permanent "miss out" for me.
soviet13 wrote: I'm all for social justice and the redistribution of wealth but putting the onus on a manufacturer of plastic spacemen to start the revolution is a bit much. They're not exploiting the vulnerable. They're not extorting people for basic services. They're just selling some slighly expensive toys. Why shouldn't they charge whatever they think will make them the most money?
And this is okay with you that people who want to enter a hobby are barred from it by their financial circumstances?
I don't see how this could ever not be the case, barring some post-scarcity science fiction future. Things cost money, and people only have a finite amount of money. This is a hobby involving little plastic models. It's a luxury.
Perfect is the enemy of good. GW can't be perfect, but they can be better.
scarletsquig wrote: IMO, Necromunda re-release is the only GW release where they've done everything right recently.
Say what now??? Are you kidding me?
A drip-fed release, with increasingly contradictory rule books, all of which were invalidated once they were all out, and are being replaced again, combined with slow release schedule, gaps in the line that are still around from the first set of books, and constant problems with the rules.
Done everything right? Necromunda is the perfect example of when the "Early Access" model from Steam is applied to a tabletop game. Newcromunda's release has been a disaster almost right from the start.
I'll give you lotr then. Stable rules, very good balance, all profiles in 2 books, rules in a 3rd, all expansions have valuable content and much of the content they even upload as a pdf on the site. Continuing releases of new models. The only downside is that some of the older models are sometimes not available for months. And a high amount of failcast, especially on the hobbit front.
HBMC hates lotr though.
MJRyder wrote: How surprising to find so many experts all in a single thread! :p
Now, I really *am* an expert in a lot of these areas (I teach marketing and management at a top10 university). I'm not going to respond to every single post here, but thought I'd just give a few summary points:
1) Things cost money.
2) GW doesn't *owe* you anything.
3) This is a hobby, not a religion.
4) There are a lot more costs involved in producing models than you may think.
5) GW doesn't want you to buy all of the products in one go. While volume is important, it's more about repeat purchases
5b) Also, don't forget the associated time and effort that individuals invest in a box of miniatures. It's not so simple as to say 'more sales = good, less sales = bad'
6) One person's personal experience DOES NOT = truth.
And finally (for now at least...), whatever your stance on GW pricing, I think it's fair to say there are now more ways to enter the GW Hobby(TM) than ever before -- and at many different price points. This is something GW has done really well of late, and has helped foster a resurgence in hobby activity, and has brought a lot of new people into the hobby from all sorts of angles. The part work magazines have been a great hit in drawing in a different breed of gamers (a friendlier, less beardy new audience), plus video games, funkopop etc. Remember: you don't need to buy a 2k point army before you start contributing to GW's profits.
XD "You don't need a 2k army to contribute to GW's profits" sounds like an ad from a corporate dystopia. "You may not be able to afford the full product, but you can still give us money for productlite!"
And finally (for now at least...), whatever your stance on GW pricing, I think it's fair to say there are now more ways to enter the GW Hobby(TM) than ever before -- and at many different price points. This is something GW has done really well of late, and has helped foster a resurgence in hobby activity, and has brought a lot of new people into the hobby from all sorts of angles. The part work magazines have been a great hit in drawing in a different breed of gamers (a friendlier, less beardy new audience), plus video games, funkopop etc. Remember: you don't need to buy a 2k point army before you start contributing to GW's profits.
I guess we'll discover if the Dark Imperium, Know No Fear and First Strike entry level boxes were considered a success if the same or similar is repeated with the launch of 9th.
I know I picked up all three but I loved the cute cardboard Bunker and Container terrain that came with the latter two.
Personally I'm hoping for a Conquest v2 at some point that uses the 9th starter models as the core. I consider the £640 cost of Conquest to be money well spent. When I say £640, I'm not including the extra issues I'm still buying. £7.99 Rhino hulls and £15.98 Plagueburst Crawlers were top value.
And finally (for now at least...), whatever your stance on GW pricing, I think it's fair to say there are now more ways to enter the GW Hobby(TM) than ever before -- and at many different price points. This is something GW has done really well of late, and has helped foster a resurgence in hobby activity, and has brought a lot of new people into the hobby from all sorts of angles. The part work magazines have been a great hit in drawing in a different breed of gamers (a friendlier, less beardy new audience), plus video games, funkopop etc. Remember: you don't need to buy a 2k point army before you start contributing to GW's profits.
I guess we'll discover if the Dark Imperium, Know No Fear and First Strike entry level boxes were considered a success if the same or similar is repeated with the launch of 9th.
I know I picked up all three but I loved the cute cardboard Bunker and Container terrain that came with the latter two.
Personally I'm hoping for a Conquest v2 at some point that uses the 9th starter models as the core. I consider the £640 cost of Conquest to be money well spent. When I say £640, I'm not including the extra issues I'm still buying. £7.99 Rhino hulls and £15.98 Plagueburst Crawlers were top value.
I like the way you think.
All you can say is- BOHICA.
We have to adjust. Hope they have those smaller starter sets, but if not, I have more then enough to hold fast for a year or three.
I have to say though, GW... damn dudes. Of any time to spout off a dumb move- THIS ranks up there. How about a Kiss first, or even take us to Dinner before you bend us all collectively over the gaming table?
MJRyder wrote: 5) GW doesn't want you to buy all of the products in one go.
Um, yeah they do. Half the stuff they release sells out within a week or two, or six months at the most. The army models they release for 40k and AoS stick around, but every two army box, card set, dice pack, discount bundle, terrain set, and optional expansion do not. Go check out how many Kill Team products GW still sells. While you are there, check if they have the Warcry starter set or any Necromunda cards, Blood Bowl pitches, or board games before Blackstone Fortress. Do you like two army battle boxes? Too bad! They don't even make it through the entire pre-order period.
Edit: I'll be honest, if I could find GW products after release, I would have a policy to not get GW stuff anymore. If I could wait on stuff, saving up to get it, and then get it at my leisure (assuming I didn't find something better value elsewhere first), I could live with that. I'd buy less stuff, spend less overall, and be happier with the stuff that I did buy and the price I paid for it. But the pressure to buy now or forever miss out makes GW a permanent "miss out" for me.
I'm sorry my friend, but I think you may have misinterpreted the meaning behind the point I was making. I didn't want to go into too much detail, as quite simply, it's a complex subject, and we have quite a range of different readers on these forums.
To put it simply:
The core 'product' that GW sells, is plastic miniatures used for wargaming or display purposes. Collecting, building and painting these models is what GW used to describe as 'the Hobby(TM)'.
Beyond this core product, there is the literary material and codexes/lore books that feed into the above. The BL novels also serve as standalone products in their own right
Some items (dice etc.), are very much about volume, and selling out quickly. These types of product are separate to the core 'product', but are a useful way of adding value to the hobby and generating additional short term sales.
Of course, the thing with the Hobby, is that while GW can certainly sell individual items to any consumer, the real value is in creating loyal fans who come back for repeat purchases, and who can also be persuaded to diversify into other game systems. This is why GW don't want you to purchase everything in one go, because a) you'll never be able to paint it all at once (which might inhibit you from wanting to buy more), and b) you're not exposed to the regular 'touch points' of marketing communications, and you're not connected to the GW community. One bulk purchase doesn't guarantee your future loyalty.
I can go into this in more detail if you like, but I hope you get the general idea.
I guess we'll discover if the Dark Imperium, Know No Fear and First Strike entry level boxes were considered a success if the same or similar is repeated with the launch of 9th.
You can't judge the success of these boxes on sales alone. It's only really something you can measure in terms of long-term sales trends and the size of the customer base. The purpose of these boxes really is the give multiple entry points to new players, or to existing players who may want to dip their toes in a different game system.
I mean, just anecdotally, I myself have bought one of the smaller AoS sets as a way to get my hands on some of the great new minis and get a flavour for the game, but without spending so much money. Thing is, now I've bought that set, I now want to buy more... (which is exactly what GW wants).
[P.S. Also, I completely agree with you about the boxes -- this was a really nice way to make the most of the packaging and add to the experience of new players!]
Being priced out of a hobby is normal. You don't go to a yacht club and complain about how yachts should be available to everyone.
That said, I think most people complaining about being priced out of their hobby are actually priced out of their patience.
It took me almost a year to save up enough money to get everything I wanted from the orktober release, because I was having financial troubles in that time.
You might not be able to start a new army or stay on top of every release and meta-change if you're broke, but it's not hard to find enough money to just continue playing your favorite army.
If you can't afford a 30 GBP box, you also couldn't afford the 25 GBP box. It basically means you will be getting the box one month later. If you have less than 5 GBP to spend on 40k per month... sorry, but this is not a hobby you can afford with your budget.
I also think that it's insane that you are now paying twice as much for the exact same box of ork boyz are now than when I bought my first one. But GW has been rising prices every year, people should know what they have signed up for.
In the end, it's a very simple decision. If you no longer get an enjoyment from 40k that is worth its cost, you walk away from it. Models, especially decently painted ones, can be sold with almost no losses and you can start a cheaper hobby with the money you get.
And this is okay with you that people who want to enter a hobby are barred from it by their financial circumstances?
It's called life. I would like to race car as a hobby. Too expensive for me though.
Economics are built on all not having same options due to money
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posermcbogus wrote: Fun fact: The Landraider is now effectively £117 in Japan!
For all of you trying to say "people still whined in the 90s that it was too expensive" should try to remember if it cost that much back then.
But if GW are still making profits overall, I guess it's fine, because only looking at short-term profits is a flawless system, and there have never been busts, crashes, or recessions in human history.
Second fun fact: I've only been able to get onto the GW website from June 1st, after the site was 'down for maintenance' since before the hikes were announced. The hikes were never announced in Japanese.
Swear to god it seems like some of the people so fervently defending GWs trash business practices are feeling personally attacked by people saying "yeah, this is a silly price for little space men, I think it isn't clever to pay that much money" while they themselves add another unpainted box of them to their pile, instead of doing something enriching with that cash.
And if GW profits drop they will do something even dropping prices if that's required. Profit is end goal for GW. Not high cost in box. They keep rising costs because that's proven to be best way to raise profits. When that doesn't work they won't do it.
But beyond the moral ideal, the prices GW is charging for their products are not a reflection of any level of social good, they could be lower and maintain a profit. Indeed they could be lower and probably garner MORE profit. I'd love to see the profits of forgeworld before and after they "equalized" (raised) prices for literally the entire world except UK. I suspect Forge world's growth.... slowed. So even without the utopian ideal, GW could strive to be more inclusive likely without sacrificing much, if any, profit.
Yes they could still be profitable. Of course if they halved prices they wouldn't even double sales(and exactly doubling reduces profits...You would need to MORE THAN DOUBLE sales with halving prices but guess what? It hasn't worked out for GW in practice when they tried to lower prices...) so would get less profits.
GW isn't here for "social good". They aren't doing it to make world better. They aren't in it for virtue signalling. They are in for one thing: profit.
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Sgt. Cortez wrote: I'll give you lotr then. Stable rules, very good balance, all profiles in 2 books, rules in a 3rd, all expansions have valuable content and much of the content they even upload as a pdf on the site. Continuing releases of new models. The only downside is that some of the older models are sometimes not available for months. And a high amount of failcast, especially on the hobbit front.
LOTR is pretty good game though it too has now whole bunch of supplements so for some models you need more than 3 books. Price wise the LOTR armies are more reasonable as long as you don't go for heavy elite or OOP(100£ for shade...bloody....) models.
Can easily get multiple different forces for price of 40k/AOS army. One issue is some of the older plastic kits(rivendel plastic elves, moria goblins) being rather poor by today's standards. They weren't even top notch during release! And the scale creep with new models is bit annoying.
Hobbit armies are annoyingly expensive, balance wise isn't as good(tournament top lists tend to have at least elements of hobbit army book contents...) and annoyingly many of the hobbit armies are tied into having specific model for their army bonus which makes all the armies from those books look very similar. It's like tying Minas Tirith force so that you pretty much need to have Aragorn in it.
You all seem to forget the fact that even if GW lowered prices and saw a sudden short term increase in volume of sales, this wouldn't necessarily lead to better performance in the long run. This is because it still takes you the same amount of time to build and paint your miniatures -- a crucial bottleneck in the process of consumption when it comes to GW's core 'product'. It also doesn't really have that much of an impact on bringing in new players, so again, doesn't really benefit GW in the long run.
I think someone mentioned it before, but let's not forget here that GW is an *aspirational* hobby, whose hobbiests are collectors as much as they are gamers. GW doesn't owe any of you anything. It certainly doesn't have an obligation to make its products as cheap as possible. This isn't just because of economic reasons, but also because it uses the money it generates to reinvest in future models, new books, new sculpts etc. I really do find it funny just how many people complain on the one hand that the prices are too high, but then are also very quick so complain when GW doesn't produce anything for their own particular niche army.
tneva82 wrote: GW isn't here for "social good". They aren't doing it to make world better.
Quite a few people argue that they are doing the exact opposite. By that logic, raising prices so less people start playing 40k might even be considered a good deed
MJRyder wrote: You all seem to forget the fact that even if GW lowered prices and saw a sudden short term increase in volume of sales, this wouldn't necessarily lead to better performance in the long run. This is because it still takes you the same amount of time to build and paint your miniatures -- a crucial bottleneck in the process of consumption when it comes to GW's core 'product'. It also doesn't really have that much of an impact on bringing in new players, so again, doesn't really benefit GW in the long run.
I think someone mentioned it before, but let's not forget here that GW is an *aspirational* hobby, whose hobbiests are collectors as much as they are gamers. GW doesn't owe any of you anything. It certainly doesn't have an obligation to make its products as cheap as possible. This isn't just because of economic reasons, but also because it uses the money it generates to reinvest in future models, new books, new sculpts etc. I really do find it funny just how many people complain on the one hand that the prices are too high, but then are also very quick so complain when GW doesn't produce anything for their own particular niche army.
Not to mention profit margin of kit at 50£ is lower than at 100£. Expenses stay same. From 100£ more is pure profit.
That's why you need to increase sales more than you reduced. Halve the price? Better more than double the sales! And unless they get tons of new players they run into issue you mention. Would I buy more sisters if prices were halved? Yes. Double? Unlikely. I could not paint fast enough...I'm already barely staying float with my pile of shame...
Don't forget if you half the cost you don't just need double the sales. Half the cost for double the sales means that you've made the same profit for double your production investment. You'd have to sell many times the amount to actually make an increase in your overall profits.
Not forgetting vast increases in sales can trigger a need for expansion, which comes with a direct cost. More product shifting means more production capacity needed - for GW that means buying land, building factories, training staff, more staff in the long term which means higher running costs.
So now if GW is already at capacity (or very near too it) then an aggressive market expansion campaign that triples model sales is just not feasible for them. They can't meet such a demand without a massive investment. For GW that means using profits to invest in that since they don't take out loans (which is what a lot of other firms do to expand really quickly - which can come back to bite them hard when the market slows down).
It's simple to think that more volume of sales can result in reduced prices per unit and greater profits through volume. However that assumes you can scale production without cost. When you start to factor in costs to expand as well the values start to shoot up. Like I said a lot of other big names on the highstreet mask over this by taking out big loans early on. This allows them to maintain their price point ,whilst investing vast sums into more production, staff, facilities etc... It raises their running costs considerably, which is fine when they are the hot name on the street and when the market is doing well. Then when you hit a slump those debts can kill them off just as fast because now their running costs end up greater than their income.
GW probably have fewer customers - people have been made redundant, or furloughed on 80% pay and so lost much of their disposable income.
But then there's that other group of middle, the middle-class, 30-somethings who also make up a good portion of GW customers, who are still employed, working from home, and have a load of excess money at the moment because there's no chance of going on holiday this year, no gigs to go to, no festivals, no cinema, no theatre, no eating out, no travel costs - they've got a tonne more disposable income.
Those people can afford the increased prices (for now) and it might help bridge the losses from many people having to just stop buying hobby stuff entirely. It makes sense from that perspective.
Is it consumer friendly? No of course not. But honestly it's the most understandable GW price increase in years.
No no, that will be understandable for the NEXT price rise.
Companies the size of GW plan out their budgets way in advance. This isn't spur of the moment, likely these prices were pegged to be risen a year ago, and if anything outside an eye for greed influenced it, it would be insulating the company for Brexit.
I disagree. While I'm sure a price rise of some sort was planned, the one that has be announced would have undoubtedly been informed by the current situation. Yes, there would have a been a budged plan for a price rise to happen by the start of the year but all those budgets would have been revised as the true impact of the situation became apparent. The factory was closed for a month. That alone means everything needs to be reforecast and re-planned.
The hobby is miniature wargaming and it is really, really hard to bar anyone from that hobby on a financial basis through pricing. Being barred from a particular brand? Sure. But the hobby itself? It can be so cheap.
In the early 2000s when I was struggling with a pile of student debt and then had a health issue that cost me my job, I still managed to stay in the hobby even though I sold all my warhammer brand stuff to pay bills.
Today the situation is even better with the huge amount of gamer crafting youtube videos about making terrain and monsters from recycled (ie free) and cheap dollar store materials. With so many free rules. My games of Grimdark Future and Age of Fantasy have both been more balanced than 40k and Age of Sigmar (and I have very few balance complaints about 40k).
I do not believe GW has any duty to price people into our out of the hobby. They are just one brand. They are not barring people from the hobby in the same way people can't afford race car driving or yachting.
The problem is people that think GW is "The Hobby™". I am currently in a pretty good position, financially, and i don't mind dropping money on GW product so long as it's actually models that I like, but you can absolutely participate in this hobby for cheap.
In 2011 I was not nearly so fortunate, I was unemployed and ebaying off my collections just to pay rent, painting for hire where I could. I still managed to play Warmachine just fine. I had to get creative and made a nature themed Circle Orboros army that was half unofficial models. Close-enough stand-ins (or thematically consistent stand-ins) like Confrontation Wolfen in place of Tharn Ravagers and beastmen Ungors in place of Tharn Bloodtrackers, wood elf spearmen in place of Wolves of Orboros. Actual rocks for Standing Stones etc. It wasn't kosher for tournaments but everything was well painted and based and well themed, so my friend's had no issue playing against them.
The price increase sucks, A LOT, but there's always other options if you can't afford new GW. Buy 2nd hand, convert, or just be proactive and push your friends into other games that are less expensive (and often better written). Rule of Cool goes a LONG way towards people's acceptance of conversions and counts-as, because while people may turn up their noses at your He-Man action figure "Warhammer Giant" if you just plop one down as-is on a square base made of cardboard, they often won't really mind at all if you go through the effort of puttying in the joints, greenstuffing on some tattered clothes and painting it up real nice. If it looks like you put real effort into scratchbuilding your Ork Battlewagon, people recognize and respect that. If you plop down a cheap dollar-store truck toy as your Battlewagon, not so much. But even then I've seen that exact thing happen down at the FLGS game night. I've also seen people with hand-drawn guardsmen (was actually kinda impressive) and I've seen a full 3,000 point game of Warhammer Fantasy played with just cardboard rectangles cut out of boxes to match what the unit footprints would be, the guys had a heck of a good time crossing out squares as units lost "models" and ripping them up if the units died or routed
There are ways to play 40k without using any 40k models, albeit you are limited to not being able to play at GW stores or the top tables of major tournaments. For >99% of players both of those aren't issues.
People have every right to complain about being priced out of a hobby. Just because GW doesn't "owe" them anything doesn't mean they don't have a right to feel sad and angry that they can no longer engage in the hobby they like because they can no longer afford to do so. It's like saying if lightning strikes your house and burns it down and you lose everything, you shouldn't be angry or sad, because "that's just life" and nature doesn't owe you anything. It is missing the point.
I've never understood the strange way some people think that "it's the free market" is a response to a moral argument. The fact that GW doesn't care about anything besides making money is not a refutation of someone's charge that they are behaving badly; if anything, it is a confirmation of it.
It's also dishonestly talking out of both sides of your mouth, because GW very much presents itself as being in the "hobby" business, not as a faceless multinational behemoth interested only in extracting as much money as it can from each customer. You can't on the one hand try to excuse GW's behavior because it's a profit-seeking corporation while on the other hand overlooking all the ways it tries to convince people it is not just a profit-seeking corporation but instead a friendly part of the hobbyist community.
Kalamadea wrote: The problem is people that think GW is "The Hobby™".
It that a problem? I know that became a tagline for GW articles during 7th edition (alongside forging that narrative), but I never met anyone who actually believed it. And few that didn't mock or ignore it.
If someone finds themselves priced out of a particular brand but they mistakenly think that they need that brand in order to participate in the hobby, then it's actually their own thinking that is standing in their way.
You could say the same thing about getting your leg chopped off. If that makes you sad about what you've lost out on the ability to do, then it's actually your own thinking that is standing (ha, ha, I crack me up!) in the way, because there's still plenty of other things you can do even without a leg.
It's not wrong, but it's silly and inaccurate to the extent it seeks to portray a loss as not a real loss. One can overestimate the importance of a loss, but a loss is still a loss. Being unable to afford a brand you used to be able to afford is a loss even if you can still afford a cheaper brand, and it's reasonable for someone to be sad over that loss.
Thankfully even after the "loss" of no longer being able to afford the warhammer brand you still have things you can do about it. And they are way easier than trying make life work with a prosthetic leg.
Kalamadea wrote: The problem is people that think GW is "The Hobby™".
It that a problem? I know that became a tagline for GW articles during 7th edition (alongside forging that narrative), but I never met anyone who actually believed it. And few that didn't mock or ignore it.
There's literally examples in this thread of posters referring to 40K as their hobby.
Which is akin to saying you "Call Of Duty" or "Grand Theft Auto."
There's many accounts who have posting history almost exclusively in the 40K sections of the site. Frequently threads duplicate themselves in those sections around new releases, which I'd say is indicative that some don't even look outside it to the general sections, otherwise how else would you miss a thread at the top of N+R that's already potentially dozens of posts long?
Now, whether that's a problem? Probably not to those inside the bubble, but if that cage is becoming a little less guilded as GW ratchets up the pressure on the finances, and those people are looking for an escape but thanks to the way they've been inducted into the hhhobby, they're ignorant to their options, then maybe?
Chamberlain wrote: Thankfully even after the "loss" of no longer being able to afford the warhammer brand you still have things you can do about it. And they are way easier than trying make life work with a prosthetic leg.
Telling other people their feelings of loss are wrong and unreasonable is typically neither effective nor compassionate.
If someone is sad that they can't afford GW products any more because they genuinely loved them, I don't see any reason to try to demean them for feeling that way. Why not just let them have their feelings, instead of insisting on piling onto them and saying "not only have your lost something you loved, but you're also wrong and a wimp to let it bother you!"
It feels especially silly to be policing the reasonableness of peoples' feelings about a hobby that literally involves spending large amounts of money on tiny toy soldiers.
yukishiro1 wrote: You could say the same thing about getting your leg chopped off. If that makes you sad about what you've lost out on the ability to do, then it's actually your own thinking that is standing (ha, ha, I crack me up!) in the way, because there's still plenty of other things you can do even without a leg.
It's not wrong, but it's silly and inaccurate to the extent it seeks to portray a loss as not a real loss. One can overestimate the importance of a loss, but a loss is still a loss. Being unable to afford a brand you used to be able to afford is a loss even if you can still afford a cheaper brand, and it's reasonable for someone to be sad over that loss.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaat......... I mean ... whaaaaaaaat......???????
Being priced out of GW models is somehow similiar to loosing a leg... Ok I have officialy been stunned... Need a second there to collect myself.
Its not a loss if you a haven't got it... It would be a loss if NOBODY would be able to buy GW models coz they stop making miniatures. Then there is physicaly no way to get new GW minatures.
You can always get a second job to afford that GW hobby if you need it so much it feels like loosing a leg... If I had lost a leg and could magically fix it by earning more money / having extra £2.50 to buy that box of troops.... I would just like do that. Alas you cant just magicaly re-grow a leg its a ludacris comparison.. What even is this conversation anymore..
That wooshing sound was the point. The point isn't that losing a leg is equivalent to losing the ability to afford a hobby you enjoy, it was that it's arrogant and unreasonable to try to police other peoples' feelings and tell them what is or is not reasonable for them to feel sad about losing.
It's also remarkably tasteless and out of touch to be going back to the old "just fire up the job cannon and get another job" line at a time when there are literally hundreds of millions of people all over the world unemployed as the result of a global catastrophe.
yukishiro1 wrote: That wooshing sound was the point. The point isn't that losing a leg is equivalent to losing the ability to afford a hobby you enjoy, it was that it's arrogant and unreasonable to try to police other peoples' feelings and tell them what is or is not reasonable for them to feel sad about losing.
No the point was quite clearly you mad ea comparison between loosing a leg and not being able to afford a specific brand of something you liked.
You realise the logical basis of what you've just suggested is that all problems anyone may have that are in any way related to a lack of finances can be simply solved by earning more money?
You do understand how tenuous that argument is?
EDIT Clearly you did, as you've now edited your post.
Chamberlain wrote: Thankfully even after the "loss" of no longer being able to afford the warhammer brand you still have things you can do about it. And they are way easier than trying make life work with a prosthetic leg.
Telling other people their feelings of loss are wrong and unreasonable is typically neither effective nor compassionate.
If someone is sad that they can't afford GW products any more because they genuinely loved them, I don't see any reason to try to demean them for feeling that way. Why not just let them have their feelings, instead of insisting on piling onto them and saying "not only have your lost something you loved, but you're also wrong and a wimp to let it bother you!"
It feels especially silly to be policing the reasonableness of peoples' feelings about a hobby that literally involves spending large amounts of money on tiny toy soldiers.
If someone finds they can no longer be a consumer of a brand they can have all the bad feels about that they want.
Then they can ask themselves whether or not they are interested in continuing on with the hobby or if being a consumer of a brand was what they were really interested in all along. If they want to continue in the hobby then huge vistas are about to open before them.
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yukishiro1 wrote: arrogant and unreasonable to try to police other peoples' feelings and tell them what is or is not reasonable for them to feel sad about losing.
When i stop and think about it, it might not actually be reasonable to emotionally suffer because you no longer get to be a consumer of a brand. Especially when we are talking about GW raising prices and pricing them out and it not being emblematic of a personal financial calamity. They still have the money to spend at the previous lower price. After they decide that GW isn't something they can justify buying any more, it's not like their only option is to drop the hobby entirely.
So if you want to keep going with this attempt at morally shaming people about GW prices you can, but I don't think it's going to really land with most people.
Chamberlain wrote: If someone finds themselves priced out of a particular brand but they mistakenly think that they need that brand in order to participate in the hobby, then it's actually their own thinking that is standing in their way.
For plenty of people, it is quite difficult to impossible to participate in wargaming without GW products.
Chamberlain wrote: If someone finds themselves priced out of a particular brand but they mistakenly think that they need that brand in order to participate in the hobby, then it's actually their own thinking that is standing in their way.
For plenty of people, it is quite difficult to impossible to participate in wargaming without GW products.
And one of the options they have is to now only use 2nd hand models. This happened to a guy in my gaming group. He lost his job and his new one paid just a bit worse. He decided no more new stuff, joined some facebook buy/sell groups, set up ebay notifications and regularly checks craigslist/kijiji. Every few months he gets a score like $300 for an entire 2000 point army. He then splits that up and sells it unit by unit at half retail until he breaks even, keeping the rest of the models.
I guess he could have just given up and quit. In the end though, he now has larger armies than any of us who buy new.
I'm not trying to shame anyone over GW's prices, just the opposite in fact. I was specifically calling out people who try to shame people for complaining about being priced out of the hobby by GW's prices. It just seems a bit craven to be kicking someone while they're down, telling them their feelings of loss are unreasonable. Especially when GW's whole business model is centered around cultivating a feeling among its customers that it is more than just a brand. When a brand trades on that kind of "more than just a company" image, it's especially unreasonable to mock people who buy into it until they literally cannot buy into it any more.
Nobody likes the guy who responds to someone's feelings of loss with "suck it up, it's not really a loss anyway, maybe it's even a gain, stop being emotional." It is a good idea in life to strive not to be that guy.
Chamberlain wrote: If someone finds themselves priced out of a particular brand but they mistakenly think that they need that brand in order to participate in the hobby, then it's actually their own thinking that is standing in their way.
For plenty of people, it is quite difficult to impossible to participate in wargaming without GW products.
And one of the options they have is to now only use 2nd hand models. This happened to a guy in my gaming group. He lost his job and his new one paid just a bit worse. He decided no more new stuff, joined some facebook buy/sell groups, set up ebay notifications and regularly checks craigslist/kijiji. Every few months he gets a score like $300 for an entire 2000 point army. He then splits that up and sells it unit by unit at half retail until he breaks even, keeping the rest of the models.
I guess he could have just given up and quit. In the end though, he now has larger armies than any of us who buy new.
Okay, I have to ask, are you defending GW's prices or just kind of wandering into a cul de sac of "Well akshully"?
yukishiro1 wrote: Especially when GW's whole business model is centered around cultivating a feeling among its customers that it is more than just a brand. When a brand trades on that kind of "more than just a company" image, it's especially unreasonable to mock people who buy into it until they literally cannot buy into it any more.
I'm not sure someone being duped by marketing makes any anguish they have because GW raised prices on a kit more reasonable.
Nobody likes the guy who responds to someone's feelings of loss with "suck it up, it's not really a loss anyway, maybe it's even a gain, stop being emotional." It is a good idea in life to strive not to be that guy.
I'm beginning to think that society might actually benefit with more people like that. Pandemic, economic upheaval, social unrest all might mean we might need to re-calibrate our reactions and no longer being able to be a consumer of a brand might just not rate as a real loss in such a climate. If it is a result or emblematic of a larger financial reversal, then that's a different story though. If it's "I have $100 for a start collecting, but GW will only sell me one at $115" then yeah, maybe that isn't something to get upset over. Maybe in that case, "suck it up, it's not really a loss anyway, maybe it's even a gain, stop being emotional."
Okay, I have to ask, are you defending GW's prices or just kind of wandering into a cul de sac of "Well akshully"?
GW's prices range from okay to terrible. We know from their financials that they care about maintaining margins, so existing products get bumped up in price to meet their targets. And they're going to keep doing that.
So now what?
If you have 50GBP for a start collecting but GW will only sell it to you for 60, what are you going to do about it? Realize there are other options? Realize there are ways to get it or something like it for less?
Nah, just quit. You're priced out, so it's all over right? Hobby gone right?
Wow, so much rancor about people being upset for something a company did.
I think most people here "gets" that GW is a private company, not a charity, and that they can set their prices however they want to.
I think many people here should also get that there's people that can feel upset when a company does that, and even say as much, online or otherwise.
It doesn't even have to do with whether you can afford it or not, but rather with being disappointed with a company, or because they're feeling somehow betrayed by the move (due to the aforementioned company's efforts trying to convince everyone that they have changed, maybe), or because the rises make them realize that what they have bought over the years wasn't worth the price they paid for, either... probably there are as many reasons as people upset by the move.
I don't think anyone needs to be told "but you can just buy less, or not buy, or buy second hand, or use other stuff"... I mean, does anyone really not know that already? You can know that, and still be upset.
That is well said and largely my position. I will admit that I only became more inflammatory after the example of someone losing a limb and moral appeals to having compassion made it just a bit too ridiculous for me. Though I'm actually not sure just how wide spread money saving techniques are known to people. People may know on some conceptual level that they could theoretically switch some of their purchasing to 2nd hand, but I don't know if it's something they know in a practical sense. And it is one technique among many if price becomes an issue.
And I am against the equation of the hobby with the buying of a single brand.
yukishiro1 wrote: You could say the same thing about getting your leg chopped off. If that makes you sad about what you've lost out on the ability to do, then it's actually your own thinking that is standing (ha, ha, I crack me up!) in the way, because there's still plenty of other things you can do even without a leg.
It's not wrong, but it's silly and inaccurate to the extent it seeks to portray a loss as not a real loss. One can overestimate the importance of a loss, but a loss is still a loss. Being unable to afford a brand you used to be able to afford is a loss even if you can still afford a cheaper brand, and it's reasonable for someone to be sad over that loss.
Whaaaaaaaaaaaat......... I mean ... whaaaaaaaat......???????
Being priced out of GW models is somehow similiar to loosing a leg... Ok I have officialy been stunned... Need a second there to collect myself.
Its not a loss if you a haven't got it... It would be a loss if NOBODY would be able to buy GW models coz they stop making miniatures. Then there is physicaly no way to get new GW minatures.
You can always get a second job to afford that GW hobby if you need it so much it feels like loosing a leg... If I had lost a leg and could magically fix it by earning more money / having extra £2.50 to buy that box of troops.... I would just like do that.
Alas you cant just magicaly re-grow a leg its a ludacris comparison.. What even is this conversation anymore..
I think you so missed the point. If you used to have something and now don't, it's a loss.
'Go out and get a second job for the extra £2.50 if you're so desperate for GW models?'
Wow. Such compassion.
You do realise a vast amount of UK workers (many now called 'key workers') have had either 0% or close to 0% pay rises for an entire decade. Inflation is at close to an all time low, but GW feel the need to bunk up a lot of prices by 15-20% (yearly). Your solution... go get another job? Jeez.
If there was such thing as the Hobby Ombudsman, GW would never leave court.
Considerable price increases when a good chunk of the world is entering an economic down turn. Absolutely terrible value proposition for players (have mercy on the poor gits trying to start an IG or Orks army) but I guess GW thinks they can pull more money out of their wealthier patrons and stabilize with higher margins. I think GW is continually pricing themselves out of reach of younger players and the lower middle class but then again they seem to be doing ok considering how many people seem to just buy anything they release without hesitation. Their pricing structure is probably going to help them in the short to medium term but might weaken them in the long term with a potentially shrinking their current user base and creating a higher barrier to entry for new customers..
Most other conmpanies are not beholden to their 12-month (?) strategy and shareholder pressure.
GW is in a strange place in the wargaming world being the behemoth it is. Most other companies can handle the customer base they have, but GW has to handle the worldwide marketplaces they have their stores. So much presence means a lot of contradictory decisions to be made.
So, price rises were promised to investors last year, and changing that would cause stockmarket problems, I expect.
[I made all of that up, as I am not in the industry at all.]
I've never understood the strange way some people think that "it's the free market" is a response to a moral argument. The fact that GW doesn't care about anything besides making money is not a refutation of someone's charge that they are behaving badly; if anything, it is a confirmation of it.
Wow, I'm sorry, but there are an awful lot of problems with your argument, as you seem to be conflating several different ideas and assuming they are equivalent. I've highlighted two of the main issues above ^.
1) The free market point is *not* about morals. It's not a moral argument. Sure, you can make it a moral argument in the sense that 'capitalism=bad', but really, we're not going to bring down capitalism any time soon, so you really do need to move beyond the overly simplistic argument that rising prices is somehow immoral. After all, following your logic, everything should be free. And that of course, is a logical impossibility as the world as we know it would simply stop working.
2) Building on point #1, your second false assumption is that any sort of price rise is in somehow 'bad', and that GW are 'behaving badly'. Of course, 'bad' here is a relativistic argument. The point here is that everyone has choices. Just because GW (or any other company for that matter) raises prices, doesn't mean they are deliberately out to hurt you personally. They're certainly not 'behaving badly'. It's just economics.
I can give you a more detailed lesson on all of the above if you like, but I don't really want to bore everyone.
'Go out and get a second job for the extra £2.50 if you're so desperate for GW models?' Wow. Such compassion.
You do realise a vast amount of UK workers (many now called 'key workers') have had either 0% or close to 0% pay rises for an entire decade. Inflation is at close to an all time low, but GW feel the need to bunk up a lot of prices by 15-20% (yearly). Your solution... go get another job? Jeez.
This has nothing to with compassion. If you want to continue with your hobby, which is nothing but pure luxury, find a way to do so. Cut luxury spendings elsewhere, get another job, buy second hand models, sell painted models, learn how to recast/model/papercraft/3D print. Keep playing with the miniatures you have, paint models for other people, sell your pile of shame, make a plan for when you can buy which models. There are so many options. If you tried all those, and still can't afford to stay in the 40k hobby - you simply can't afford it. Just like I can't afford joining a yacht club or collecting sports cars. That's just how life is and there is nothing wrong with not being able to afford a luxury good - because you don't need any of them.
You deserve compassion if you can't afford food, clothing, housing, education for your kids or proper healthcare. But for a hobby which has always been an expensive luxury good and which I could not afford myself for large parts of my life? Nope. None.
For a lot of people, GW, or 40K, is the hobby. Not "mini wargaming".
It's not just building, painting and playing. It's investing in the world, reading about it, reading the novels, following all the GW stuff on Twitch and on Warhammer Community. Getting excited about new releases, etc.
If priced out, one could potentially start a new hobby, try and do the same thing for another brand. But it would be difficult as most brands don't put out as much stuff as GW do, there's not quite the volume to "get in to". Plus there's the whole sunk cost thing. Sure, these other games are cheaper, but I'm starting from square one, I don't have anything, that initial outlay is still going to be steep, and not ideal if I've just been laid off.
The flip side of this is that if you're of a certain mind, you can continue to engage with the GW hobby even if you can't afford to buy anything new. You can still consume all the free online content, you can still get into arguments on Dakka about what new rules are overpowered, and you can still make a list of minis you want to get when you can afford it again. But for some it'd just be frustrating to be finding out about all this stuff you can't afford.
I know so many people who buy Chinese recasts (I would never do that, I hate that they do that, I don't agree with it at all, but hey you don't have a huge pile of people with whom to play, so you just can't be too picky, else you jst don't have enough people to play with), I wonder if that could contribute to the decision of GW to increase prices, to maintain profit.
I don't know elswhere in the world how things go, but over where I play, Chinese recasts are really costing them a good chunk of sales
addnid wrote: I know so many people who buy Chinese recasts (I would never do that, I hate that they do that, I don't agree with it at all, but hey you don't have a huge pile of people with whom to play, so you just can't be too picky, else you jst don't have enough people to play with), I wonder if that could contribute to the decision of GW to increase prices, to maintain profit.
I don't know elswhere in the world how things go, but over where I play, Chinese recasts are really costing them a good chunk of sales
A large chunk of people don't even know you can buy cheaper from independents and only buy direct from GW. For all the doom and gloom, recasters are probably a pretty tiny of people amount overall even when locally it might seem to not be the case.
deano2099 wrote: For a lot of people, GW, or 40K, is the hobby. Not "mini wargaming".
Yeah, for me too. It's not the single hobby I have but I'm not into mini wargaming, I'm only interested in 40k, more specifically in 40k orks. I also own a SW army but with the primaris releases, which I can't stand, I'm not going to update it.
It shouldn't sound that strange and it applies to many other hobbies and passions: for example I love football but I mostly watch the games involving the team I support and my national team, I don't give a damn about Liverpool, Barcelona or Brazil games even if they are the best expression of that sport at the moment. Another example is about videogames: I'm only insterested in 5-6 franchises as I just love to play 1-2 games a year, including old ones that I have finished 10+ times before. Now, if those sagas get a new episode I may play it, otherwise I couldn't care less about videogames even if I adore a few of them. Same with 40k: if the interest in my beloved orks dies then the entire mini wargaming dies for me.
This has nothing to with compassion. If you want to continue with your hobby, which is nothing but pure luxury, find a way to do so. Cut luxury spendings elsewhere, get another job, buy second hand models, sell painted models, learn how to recast/model/papercraft/3D print. Keep playing with the miniatures you have, paint models for other people, sell your pile of shame, make a plan for when you can buy which models. There are so many options.
If you tried all those, and still can't afford to stay in the 40k hobby - you simply can't afford it. Just like I can't afford joining a yacht club or collecting sports cars.
That's just how life is and there is nothing wrong with not being able to afford a luxury good - because you don't need any of them.
You deserve compassion if you can't afford food, clothing, housing, education for your kids or proper healthcare. But for a hobby which has always been an expensive luxury good and which I could not afford myself for large parts of my life? Nope. None.
deano2099 wrote: For a lot of people, GW, or 40K, is the hobby. Not "mini wargaming".
Blackie wrote: It's not the single hobby I have but I'm not into mini wargaming, I'm only interested in 40k, more specifically in 40k orks.
I think it is important to point out that even if people stick with a single brand, it still is the miniature wargaming hobby. Whether GW or other popular games like Infinity, Bolt Action, Kings of War, Frostgrave and myriads of other fantasy and historical games they're all related and share the same general methodolgy in that you're pushing painted models around a table to simulate the field of battle.
deano2099 wrote: For a lot of people, GW, or 40K, is the hobby. Not "mini wargaming".
Blackie wrote: It's not the single hobby I have but I'm not into mini wargaming, I'm only interested in 40k, more specifically in 40k orks.
I think it is important to point out that even if people stick with a single brand, it still is the miniature wargaming hobby. Whether GW or other popular games like Infinity, Bolt Action, Kings of War, Frostgrave and myriads of other fantasy and historical games they're all related and share the same general methodolgy in that you're pushing painted models around a table to simulate the field of battle.
I understand your point, but kind of disagree.
I read 30K/40K books, I watch YouTube channels dedicated to 40K, and buy/paint/play with 40K mimiatures. If 40K somehow went away, I would not be seeking to replace it with other games because I am not invested in their lore, and don't have the time or inclination to become so. For me, playing the wargame is just a byproduct of my interest in the setting.
I was similarly invested in The Old World, but when WFB ceased to exist, I simply stopped playing; the AoS lore doesn't work for me.
addnid wrote: I know so many people who buy Chinese recasts (I would never do that, I hate that they do that, I don't agree with it at all, but hey you don't have a huge pile of people with whom to play, so you just can't be too picky, else you jst don't have enough people to play with), I wonder if that could contribute to the decision of GW to increase prices, to maintain profit.
I don't know elswhere in the world how things go, but over where I play, Chinese recasts are really costing them a good chunk of sales
With the recent financials I suspect recasts are doing next to no damage* to GW, and are just a straw boogeyman (see aaa video games smoke and mirrors regarding the same thing)
*as per the rules im not cheerleading for ip theft its very much a personal choice
harlokin wrote: I understand your point, but kind of disagree.
I read 30K/40K books, I watch YouTube channels dedicated to 40K, and buy/paint/play with 40K mimiatures. If 40K somehow went away, I would not be seeking to replace it with other games because I am not invested in their lore, and don't have the time or inclination to become so. For me, playing the wargame is just a byproduct of my interest in the setting.
Out of curiosity, why is that? Have you learned about other wargames' settings, or were you never interested? If some settings that you are already interested in (from, say, a book, TV show, movie) is made in a wargame that becomes very popular, would you be likely to play it?
deano2099 wrote: For a lot of people, GW, or 40K, is the hobby. Not "mini wargaming".
Blackie wrote: It's not the single hobby I have but I'm not into mini wargaming, I'm only interested in 40k, more specifically in 40k orks.
I think it is important to point out that even if people stick with a single brand, it still is the miniature wargaming hobby. Whether GW or other popular games like Infinity, Bolt Action, Kings of War, Frostgrave and myriads of other fantasy and historical games they're all related and share the same general methodolgy in that you're pushing painted models around a table to simulate the field of battle.
I understand your point, but kind of disagree.
I read 30K/40K books, I watch YouTube channels dedicated to 40K, and buy/paint/play with 40K mimiatures. If 40K somehow went away, I would not be seeking to replace it with other games because I am not invested in their lore, and don't have the time or inclination to become so. For me, playing the wargame is just a byproduct of my interest in the setting.
so your hobbies are reading, watching YT videos, miniature painting and wargaming and you prefere the Warhammer 40k Franchise for all of those over other themes
