It's nice to see people picking back up on the idea of Sisters as a danger close shooting army rather than all charges all the time.

leerm02 wrote:
Hey there folks!

So, as I am one of those poor masochistic fools who try to have a ton of smaller armies instead of one big army, I've starting thinking about getting a 1k(ish) Sisters of Battle force together.

Mostly: I love the look of the models, the super-over-the-top gothic thing, the flamers and meltas...

That being said: what would you folks say would be your MUST include for a small force (around 1k ish) of sisters?

Thanks in advance!

I'm late on this, but if you're getting Vahl some Sacresants won't go amiss. I also like dominions with storm bolters. As others have said, Mortifiers are pretty popular with Pengines less so, Paragons least of all but I still think they have a niche that still needs to be found. In a low points game even one Mortifier could be a real nasty surprise but that's been cut back somewhat.

I would not recommend getting more than one Combat Patrol box, its models are monopose and distinct enough from their box counterparts to be worth taking a dip in but not worth doing it twice unless you're making a big army with a ton of repeating units. The boxed versions aren't exactly super dynamic and modular but are at least more friendly to arm and head swaps.

Yes, Mortifier/Pengine legs can be posed to have both feet touch the ground, you just need to cut the guiding peg on the ball joint and you should get more range to pose it - it may require some adjustments to cables or the base, I haven't had a chance to try it myself yet.

Just had a game with my Sisters this evening, playing against my friend's Death Guard. I was running the list I posted a few posts above. He was running the following:

For secondaries, I took Retrieve Octarius Data, Defend the Shrine, and the mission secondary. He took To the Last (for which his Daemon Prince and two of his Crawlers were chosen), the mission secondary, and I can't remember what his other one was.
The game was really close and saw me squeak out a 57-54 victory, with only Morvenn Vahl left standing with one wound left and she was on the shrine objective (I maxed it for 15 points). I had killed all of his Crawlers and two of the units of Deathshrouds, as well as most of the Poxwalkers and a couple of the Dreads, but everything else lived.

My takeaways:
-You really have to use terrain well to make Repentia work. I didn't do this well and so my Repentia were lame ducks for most of the game.
-Death Guard is a tough matchup for a Repentia-heavy Sisters list. This is another reason why they didn't feel like they really did much.
-Morvenn Vahl is an absolute all-star. She should be windmill-slammed into any Sisters list for competitive play. Absolutely the MVP of my list. Even if she only uses her reroll buff on herself, she puts in solid work.
-Sacresants can be annoying to kill, especially if you use cover a little better than I did.
-You really need a way to reroll low Miracle dice or just get more of them, making the Litanies of Faith relic very valuable. I consistently rolled low on mine and it really hamstrung me. I'll be swapping out the relics and traits before my tournament.
-I'm actually feeling like the Indomitable Belief warlord trait is a trap choice, as it encourages castling up in an army that wants to cover the board to some degree.

With this game in mind, I'm making a couple of last-minute adjustments to my list. Nothing drastic as I don't want to have to buy and paint a ton more models. Main thing I'm doing is dropping one of the Repentia from the 5-girl squad, which reduces the PL of the unit such that I can put it into reserves along with one of the big units for 1 CP, as well as freeing up the points for a bigger and better change: swapping out the Dialogus for a Dogmata. The Dialogus aura just didn't matter in my game, and I would have been much better off with a good way to give more models ObSec. Her extra trait will be Inspiring Orator to increase the range of her litany, which will be Blazing Piety (a nice way to dish out a few cheeky mortal wounds), and the relic will be Litanies of Faith instead of the Book of St. Lucius. I'm also switching the Retributor squads a bit, putting 2 HB and 2 MM in each unit so that one of them isn't a bullseye for my opponent's shooting. They'll probably be what rides in the Rhinos with the Dominions in most games.

Won an RTT recently, just gonna do a quick overview.

List was Argent+Bloody Rose:

Argent was a battalion with Morvenn, Celestine, 2 BSS with MM 1 BSS with HF, 4MM Rets, 4HF+Combi-melta Rets, 2 Squads of 4SB dominions.

BR was Rapturous Blows Canoness with Mantle+Ire, Dogmata, 2 8 girl repentia squads with superior, 10squad of Zpehyrim, Battle sanctum. 15 Sacresants

Got the bye first round, which inflated my score a bit but honestly there was only one other list there that wasn't countered by mine and I played him round 3.

So second game I played against new Orkz with a gargantuan squigothh and with a pretty standard backup crew. Put most things out of LoS and only left the Sacresants to shoot at. Morvenn and 10 Sacresants on the left flank, Celestine and the bulk of my other units on the right flank. 2 units of BSS and the Sanctum holding down the back court.

Dice failed me utterly turn one so I failed to kill a trukk on a midfield objective with quite a lot of my shooting (including a round of blessed bolts that resulted in ZERO mortal wounds) and barely touched the squiggoth. This ended up hurting me quite a bit. Failing to bracket the squiggoth meant that when he Charged Morvenn (who I left exposed deliberately to try and bait it in) took exactly enough damage to kill her in one round. Oof. The truck surviving meant I could charge the Boyz inside which almost led to Celestine getting crumped (survived with one wound). Fortunately he made some bad decisions with target selection that ended up getting failing to do any catastrophic damage. Once my deepstrikers showed up they mulched a bunch of what he had and it was a mop up after that. Fairly low scoring because I screwed up to the Last with Morvenn dying and we ended on turn 4.

3rd game was against Custodes with 3 Telemon, Bike Character, Trajann, the wniged forgeworld unit, and 3 regular custodes squads. Vanguard Strike deployment, he deployed aggressively, I hid behind obscuring. He went straight for a scrum in the middle, this was a mistake.

He charged a bait unit of Stormbolter doms on the middle objective, which got him close enough that turn 2 I could hit him with EVERYTHING. Shooting didn't do a whole lot (HT retributors HF did more wounds than 12 MM shots) but in melee my rapturous blows canoness popped a 6 on the miracle dice for a 6" bubble of mortal wounds on hit. For around 100 total attacks. Rerolling 1s to hit and wound for Morvenn. Gave Celestine full rerolls here and she just went OFF. 5 6s killed a wounded Telemon before her regular attacks could even swing. At the end of the combat phase 2 telemons were dead and one had like 3 wounds left with both of his characters losing wounds to the explosion.

Problem was, he was VERY ahead on points at this juncture, and with me taking a very bad Raise the Banners High, I had a lot of ground to make up.

Leap of Faith got me 12 on the primary (We marked it as 15 because it's the first time I've used this secondary and forgot it was 12 max. My fault but wouldn't have changed the outcome.)

Raise only got me 7 but the mission secondary got me 15 and the primary got me 40 so I ended up taking it by 10 points (actually 7 because again, I fethed up leap).

All in all a really good tournament and I learned a lot. I'm still not as up on the rules of the new codex as I need to be. Making a mistake like 15 on Leap is totally unacceptable, I also played SEVERAL things very poorly or just wrong (thankfully to my detriment) in the first round.

Nvm

Just finished up playing Sisters in the Gateway Open GT earlier today, so I thought I'd throw up a quick summary of how I did and my takeaways from the event. First up, my list:

In every game, I put a squad of Dominions and a squad of Retributors in each Rhino, I put the Zephyrim into "deep strike", and I spent 1 CP to outflank the small Repentia unit and one of the big units. I always chose The Passion as my Sacred Rite.

In game 1, the mission was Scorched Earth. I faced a Necron list with 30 Lychguard, a couple of Doomsday Arks, a Hexmark Destroyer, and some other things. My secondaries were Retrieve Octarius Data, Engage on All Fronts, and No Prisoners (due to resurrecting Lychguard I figured I could score high since I would get points each time I killed a model). My opponent chose Retrieve Octarius Data, Engage on All Fronts, and Grind Them Down. I got first turn and in my first turn managed to bag half a squad of Lychguard and take a few wounds off of a Doomsday Ark with Morvenn Vahl's shooting. Unfortunately for me, most of the Lychguard ended up getting right back up on my opponent's turn thanks to a Res Orb or something. I don't remember much of the rest of the game except for one thing: when I dropped in my Zephyrim, my opponent used a strat to drop in his Hexmark guy and gunned down most of them before they even got to do anything. Thankfully enough of them survived to kill all of the Immortals holding an objective. I had no idea that was a thing and so it was a total "gotcha" moment, but I have to chalk it up to my complete inexperience with Necrons in 9th. The game ended up going south for me, although I did manage to score plenty of points. The final score was 95-63 in favor of my opponent.

In game 2, the mission was Retrieval. My opponent was running a Deathwing-heavy Dark Angels list with a Terminator squad, a Deathwing Knight squad (in which he took a Master-crafted weapon to make the flail 3 damage!), a Volkite Contemptor, and a Leviathan with the big melta weapon, along with some Ravenwing Black Knights, a Dark Talon, a Ravenwing Apothecary, some Infiltrators, Ezekiel, and a couple of Terminator characters. I chose the Retrieve Octarius Data, Engage on All Fronts, and Minimize Losses (mission specific) secondaries. My opponent took Stubborn Defiance, Raise the Banners High, and Grind Them Down. I got first turn once again, and I didn't accomplish much other than to get my Retributors into a ruin with a good vantage point and bring down the plane despite it using the 4++ stratagem. Again, I don't remember all of the game at all, other than the fact that my Mortifiers basically mulched his Infiltrators (stopping Stubborn Defiance in its tracks), but in turn were themselves mulched by the Deathwing Knights (all of them failing their 4+ to fight after death roll). My Repentia also failed to kill the Volkite Contemptor after charging it, which resulted in them becoming fine pink mist. Despite denying my opponent from getting any points at all for Stubborn Defiance, I ended up losing this one as well, as the final score was 77-63. I made plenty of foolish decisions, none of which by themselves lost me the game but cumulatively just kept me from scoring enough.

In game 3, we were playing the Sweep and Clear mission. My opponent was running a fluffy Imperial Fists army composed mainly of 30k models that were beautifully painted. A bunch of 10-man Tactical and Devastator units, a 5-man Relic Terminator squad, plus a Predator and a Land Raider, as well as a Captain and Lieutenant and a couple of Rhinos were what comprised the list. I took the Retrieve Octarius Data, Engage on All Fronts, and No Prisoners secondaries, while my opponent chose Assassinate, Stranglehold, and No Prisoners. There isn't a whole lot to say about the game itself; I got first turn, blew up the Predator and a Rhino and picked off a couple of random Tacticals, and moved most of my stuff up the board. My opponent's return fire was mostly ineffective, killing a couple of random models. Such was the pattern of the game, although when all was said and done my opponent did get a few points for No Prisoners, but very little else. It was very one-sided in my favor, with a final score of 90-19. We just talked it out after turn 4 as he only had a Rhino and a couple of Marines still standing so it was obvious I was going to table him.

On to day 2. Game 4 had the mission Battle Lines. My opponent was running White Scars, with two big bricks of claw/shield Vanguard Vets, 3 Volkite Contemptors, a Khan on Bike with some relic, a Phobos Lieutenant, a unit of Suppressors, a Primaris Techmarine, and some Incursors and Intercessors as troops. I chose the mission secondary, Defend the Shrine, and Retrieve Octarius Data, while my opponent chose Engage on All Fronts, Retrieve Octarius Data, and Assassinate. This is the only game in which Morvenn Vahl ended up dying, but not before she killed more than her points worth and tanked a frankly obscene amount of aggro. If anything, my opponent was not aggressive enough with his VanVets, although they did kill some of my stuff before I managed to bag them. My Mortifiers also really pulled their weight in this one, killing several models including one of the VolCons and surviving the whole game. I did end up losing all of my characters when all was said and done, though. Thankfully, I still managed to stay ahead on points and I won the game 79-56. I only ended up getting 3 points on Shrine because Morvenn just couldn't hold on indefinitely and my opponent held it at the end of the game.

In the final game, the mission was Overrun. My opponent brought Black Templars (sheesh, more Space Marines!). He had 3 Redemptor Dreadnoughts (2 with gatling and one with plasma), a VolCon, Grimaldus, a Primaris Chaplain on Bike, a Primaris Techmarine, a Primaris Apothecary (all three of these had the Chapter leader upgrades), 2 Crusader Squads, an Incursor Squad, a 4-man Eradicator squad, and a big brick of TH/SS Terminators. For secondaries, I chose Retrieve Octarius Data, Engage on All Fronts, and Assassinate, while my opponent chose Oaths of Moment, Engage on All Fronts, and Retrieve Octarius Data. The game proved to be one of the best games of 40k I've ever experienced in my seven years of playing 40k. It swung back and forth several times such that we had no idea who was on top until we tallied up the scores. The result: an 82-82 tie! My opponent said the toughest thing about my army was all of my different shenanigans like Miracle Dice and all the rerolls, and the fact that Repentia can punch so far above their weight (two of them managed to punch out the Techmarine by themselves). I had to mostly just play the objectives, as my shooting failed to inflict anywhere near enough damage early on to blunt his firepower from the Dreads and Eradicators.

So I ended up with a 2-2-1 record and finished 26th out of 56 players, which for my skill level and lack of experience in 9th edition is a pretty solid showing. I do feel like there are lots of ways I could optimize my list better, and I definitely need some practice to tighten up my game, but overall I'm pretty happy with Sisters as an army. They are an absolute blast to play! Morvenn Vahl is probably the best character in all of 40k currently, for her points. She just does so much and takes a lot of effort to actually kill. The only time she died was because I played her extremely aggressively in that game. The other units I was super happy with were the Repentia. I doubt they'd be as good in other Orders, but as Bloody Rose they are stupendously killy and will almost always trade up before they die, except when they fail their charges or end up fighting things they really should be better staying away from (like Dreadnoughts or anything Death Guard). I really also love some of our army mechanics, especially Acts of Faith. Being able to guarantee a charge out of reserves makes Repentia or Zephyrim extremely dangerous. I definitely look forward to more tournament outings with my Sisters in the future.

New magnus and 23 casting coming my way. Magnus, 6 rubrik squads, 10 terminators(likely 1 squad), ahrimann, 2 exalted, the new character.

List i have more or less made(3x7 repentia, 4x5 and 20 bss, 5 dominion, 2x5 retributors, lotsa multi melta, melta, heavy bolters. 4 rhino, melta immolator, null rod, relic brazier.

What should i target at? How heavy should i try to hunt magnus? Or should i try to thin others?

With that many casters lots of rituals so guess 2-3 undeniable will be coming my way.

Any other suggestions?

tneva82 wrote:
New magnus and 23 casting coming my way. Magnus, 6 rubrik squads, 10 terminators(likely 1 squad), ahrimann, 2 exalted, the new character.

List i have more or less made(3x7 repentia, 4x5 and 20 bss, 5 dominion, 2x5 retributors, lotsa multi melta, melta, heavy bolters. 4 rhino, melta immolator, null rod, relic brazier.

What should i target at? How heavy should i try to hunt magnus? Or should i try to thin others?

With that many casters lots of rituals so guess 2-3 undeniable will be coming my way.

Any other suggestions?

you could always meme on him with crossbows and miracle dice the wound roll for guaranteed mortals for laughs

tneva82 wrote:
New magnus and 23 casting coming my way. Magnus, 6 rubrik squads, 10 terminators(likely 1 squad), ahrimann, 2 exalted, the new character.

List i have more or less made(3x7 repentia, 4x5 and 20 bss, 5 dominion, 2x5 retributors, lotsa multi melta, melta, heavy bolters. 4 rhino, melta immolator, null rod, relic brazier.

What should i target at? How heavy should i try to hunt magnus? Or should i try to thin others?

With that many casters lots of rituals so guess 2-3 undeniable will be coming my way.

Any other suggestions?

Might seem obvious, but definitely take the sacred rite that lets you automatically Deny the Witch on a 5+. Not sure what order you are running; Valorous Heart would be ideal for the 5+++ vs. mortals. Otherwise your list looks decent. I would kind of want Mortifiers for this matchup as with their 5+++ they can soak some of the psychic wounds and their 2 damage guns will let you ignore the Rubrics' All is Dust rule (assuming that hasn't changed, haven't really seen what the new Tsons book is like).

Strategy-wise, I would definitely try to have some chaff in between your good units and the enemy at all times to take the smites. If your opponent comes toward you with Magnus, give him a face full of melta. Otherwise, focus down the rubrics to limit places where the characters can hide and if you catch a character away from the units, nuke it. And don't forget your stratagems; there are some decent ones that are only relevant vs. psychic stuff, such as Thrice-Blessed Hull and the one where you can block a power on a 4+ roll (after attempting to DtW).

Penitents have 5+++ as well. Guns only d1 but on flipside in melee saws have good ap and damage.

Main purpose is smite catcher, cheap unit to throw at objective and/or soak overwatch　before repentia charges in.

2 orders. Argent shroud and bloody rose.

And yes 5+ deny in use. Biggest spells i can't deny but hopefully reduces damage a bit.

tneva82 wrote:
Penitents have 5+++ as well. Guns only d1 but on flipside in melee saws have good ap and damage.

Main purpose is smite catcher, cheap unit to throw at objective and/or soak overwatch　before repentia charges in.

2 orders. Argent shroud and bloody rose.

And yes 5+ deny in use. Biggest spells i can't deny but hopefully reduces damage a bit.

20 battle sisters+immune to magic prayer. Any spells that target closest get shut off with good positioning.

I'm guessing this has come up a lot already, but is there any current merit to the paragon warsuits?

I've seen the paragon character (morvenn?) appear in several lists, so I was just curious, as having her with a retinue of otther suits would seem pretty cool thematically.

Niiru wrote:
I'm guessing this has come up a lot already, but is there any current merit to the paragon warsuits?

I've seen the paragon character (morvenn?) appear in several lists, so I was just curious, as having her with a retinue of otther suits would seem pretty cool thematically.

Paragons are cool, but they are just too overcosted to be competitive at all really. Very unfortunate. Morvenn Vahl, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. She should absolutely be windmill slammed into any competitive Sisters list. She's absurdly good for her points cost.

Thematically it would be cool to have Morvenn with some regular Paragons, and indeed a squad of Paragons would be an excellent choice for her reroll all hits/wounds buff, but they just aren't survivable enough for their cost.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'm guessing this has come up a lot already, but is there any current merit to the paragon warsuits?

I've seen the paragon character (morvenn?) appear in several lists, so I was just curious, as having her with a retinue of otther suits would seem pretty cool thematically.

Paragons are cool, but they are just too overcosted to be competitive at all really. Very unfortunate. Morvenn Vahl, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. She should absolutely be windmill slammed into any competitive Sisters list. She's absurdly good for her points cost.

Thematically it would be cool to have Morvenn with some regular Paragons, and indeed a squad of Paragons would be an excellent choice for her reroll all hits/wounds buff, but they just aren't survivable enough for their cost.

That's a shame. Is there no way to make them work?

Mortifiers and Penitents would fit the theme, but they aren't core so don't really benefit which is a shame.

Niiru wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'm guessing this has come up a lot already, but is there any current merit to the paragon warsuits?

I've seen the paragon character (morvenn?) appear in several lists, so I was just curious, as having her with a retinue of otther suits would seem pretty cool thematically.

Paragons are cool, but they are just too overcosted to be competitive at all really. Very unfortunate. Morvenn Vahl, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. She should absolutely be windmill slammed into any competitive Sisters list. She's absurdly good for her points cost.

Thematically it would be cool to have Morvenn with some regular Paragons, and indeed a squad of Paragons would be an excellent choice for her reroll all hits/wounds buff, but they just aren't survivable enough for their cost.

That's a shame. Is there no way to make them work?

Mortifiers and Penitents would fit the theme, but they aren't core so don't really benefit which is a shame.

I don't think it's a case where they can't work, they just lack the damage output you'd expect for their cost. They're durable, but there's usually harder-hitting or less expensive options that are more tempting.

Niiru wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'm guessing this has come up a lot already, but is there any current merit to the paragon warsuits?

I've seen the paragon character (morvenn?) appear in several lists, so I was just curious, as having her with a retinue of otther suits would seem pretty cool thematically.

Paragons are cool, but they are just too overcosted to be competitive at all really. Very unfortunate. Morvenn Vahl, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. She should absolutely be windmill slammed into any competitive Sisters list. She's absurdly good for her points cost.

Thematically it would be cool to have Morvenn with some regular Paragons, and indeed a squad of Paragons would be an excellent choice for her reroll all hits/wounds buff, but they just aren't survivable enough for their cost.

That's a shame. Is there no way to make them work?

Mortifiers and Penitents would fit the theme, but they aren't core so don't really benefit which is a shame.

They work in Pen. Engine/Mortifier skew lists.

Lammia wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'm guessing this has come up a lot already, but is there any current merit to the paragon warsuits?

I've seen the paragon character (morvenn?) appear in several lists, so I was just curious, as having her with a retinue of otther suits would seem pretty cool thematically.

Paragons are cool, but they are just too overcosted to be competitive at all really. Very unfortunate. Morvenn Vahl, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. She should absolutely be windmill slammed into any competitive Sisters list. She's absurdly good for her points cost.

Thematically it would be cool to have Morvenn with some regular Paragons, and indeed a squad of Paragons would be an excellent choice for her reroll all hits/wounds buff, but they just aren't survivable enough for their cost.

That's a shame. Is there no way to make them work?

Mortifiers and Penitents would fit the theme, but they aren't core so don't really benefit which is a shame.

They work in Pen. Engine/Mortifier skew lists.

Eh...even then only because they can get melta. Ideally you'd want more pengines/morties and to cough up a few extra points for retributors.

It's off meta enough to be playable though. You'll still need key good stuff, maybe more so. But it gets your Nundams on the table.

Lammia wrote:
It's off meta enough to be playable though. You'll still need key good stuff, maybe more so. But it gets your Nundams on the table.

So I just checked goonhammer and apparently a guy took down a GT with a unit of MM Paragons on tap!

And 2 full MM ret squads.

And 2 immolators with Hunter Killers...

Okay...let me check the other top lists (Ironhands, Admech vehicle spam, Drukhari with lots of multiwound models and vehicles, Redemptor based BTs, Redemptor based SWs, Invictor based Salamanders, Rhinos and Plague Crawlers)

Ah...that's why. This is arguably the greatest counter meta pick in the history of competitive 40k.

ERJAK wrote:

Lammia wrote:
It's off meta enough to be playable though. You'll still need key good stuff, maybe more so. But it gets your Nundams on the table.

So I just checked goonhammer and apparently a guy took down a GT with a unit of MM Paragons on tap!

And 2 full MM ret squads.

And 2 immolators with Hunter Killers...

Okay...let me check the other top lists (Ironhands, Admech vehicle spam, Drukhari with lots of multiwound models and vehicles, Redemptor based BTs, Redemptor based SWs, Invictor based Salamanders, Rhinos and Plague Crawlers)

Ah...that's why. This is arguably the greatest counter meta pick in the history of competitive 40k.

It's a Ramshackle world, Nundams just want to rule it

Lammia wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Lammia wrote:
It's off meta enough to be playable though. You'll still need key good stuff, maybe more so. But it gets your Nundams on the table.

So I just checked goonhammer and apparently a guy took down a GT with a unit of MM Paragons on tap!

And 2 full MM ret squads.

And 2 immolators with Hunter Killers...

Okay...let me check the other top lists (Ironhands, Admech vehicle spam, Drukhari with lots of multiwound models and vehicles, Redemptor based BTs, Redemptor based SWs, Invictor based Salamanders, Rhinos and Plague Crawlers)

Ah...that's why. This is arguably the greatest counter meta pick in the history of competitive 40k.

It's a Ramshackle world, Nundams just want to rule it

Ahh, for a second there I thought it was going to turn out to have some hidden benefits of Paragons

Well, The Benefit of Warsuits is they blended the army's profile between the Sacroscants, Engines of Redemption/Immolators and Rets

It's a shame the paragons don't have any kind of decent invuln.

Niiru wrote:
It's a shame the paragons don't have any kind of decent invuln.

Indeed. Even a 5++ like Seraphim/Zephyrim get would go a long way. Their 6++ SoF save just doesn't cut it, and unless I'm very much mistaken both ways to buff the SoF save (Indomitable Belief trait, and the hymn) only work on infantry so Paragons are SOL.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Niiru wrote:
It's a shame the paragons don't have any kind of decent invuln.

Indeed. Even a 5++ like Seraphim/Zephyrim get would go a long way. Their 6++ SoF save just doesn't cut it, and unless I'm very much mistaken both ways to buff the SoF save (Indomitable Belief trait, and the hymn) only work on infantry so Paragons are SOL.

Litany will buff them.

So, I haven't played in a few editions, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried a Sacred Rose canoness with Wrath of the Emperor, the Righteous Judgement blessing, and the Sacred Rose Warlord trait.

It seems like you could get a mortal wound and 2 damage AP - 2 (assuming Divine Guidance) wound every round at 18" ignoring LOS, plus 3 additional chances to roll for more at the cost of half a miracle die of any face.

Mavnas wrote:
So, I haven't played in a few editions, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried a Sacred Rose canoness with Wrath of the Emperor, the Righteous Judgement blessing, and the Sacred Rose Warlord trait.

It seems like you could get a mortal wound and 2 damage AP - 2 (assuming Divine Guidance) wound every round at 18" ignoring LOS, plus 3 additional chances to roll for more at the cost of half a miracle die of any face.

It hasn't won any GTs, but people have been playing around with SR.

It's an interesting idea but 'considered to be a 6' isn't an unmodified 6, so it *shouldn't* work.

Lammia wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, I haven't played in a few editions, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried a Sacred Rose canoness with Wrath of the Emperor, the Righteous Judgement blessing, and the Sacred Rose Warlord trait.

It seems like you could get a mortal wound and 2 damage AP - 2 (assuming Divine Guidance) wound every round at 18" ignoring LOS, plus 3 additional chances to roll for more at the cost of half a miracle die of any face.

It hasn't won any GTs, but people have been playing around with SR.

It's an interesting idea but 'considered to be a 6' isn't an unmodified 6, so it *shouldn't* work.

p.91: "A Miracle dice is not a modifier or an inherently modified dice (so, for example, if you use a Miracle dice with a value of 1 for a Morale test, that is considered to be an unmodified roll of 1.)" The WL trait doesn't modify the miracle dice into a 6 because, by definition, it can't be modified. The trait says regardless of what that one MD per turn was, it's a 6 now. The value of a miracle dice that gets used counts as if you rolled that result, so it counts as an unmodified 6.

Yeah, I was assuming any modifier to the MD is not a modifier to the roll.

edit: Noob question, can you use multiple stratagems on the same unit's shooting? I don't think those existed last time I played.

yadrzzob wrote:

Lammia wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, I haven't played in a few editions, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried a Sacred Rose canoness with Wrath of the Emperor, the Righteous Judgement blessing, and the Sacred Rose Warlord trait.

It seems like you could get a mortal wound and 2 damage AP - 2 (assuming Divine Guidance) wound every round at 18" ignoring LOS, plus 3 additional chances to roll for more at the cost of half a miracle die of any face.

It hasn't won any GTs, but people have been playing around with SR.

It's an interesting idea but 'considered to be a 6' isn't an unmodified 6, so it *shouldn't* work.

p.91: "A Miracle dice is not a modifier or an inherently modified dice (so, for example, if you use a Miracle dice with a value of 1 for a Morale test, that is considered to be an unmodified roll of 1.)" The WL trait doesn't modify the miracle dice into a 6 because, by definition, it can't be modified. The trait says regardless of what that one MD per turn was, it's a 6 now. The value of a miracle dice that gets used counts as if you rolled that result, so it counts as an unmodified 6.

It says miracle dice aren't inherently modified dice. You can absoutely modify them.

But that's something that can cleared up in a faq

That interpretation would gut already kind of lackluster ways of turning your MD into a 6.

Lammia wrote:

yadrzzob wrote:

Lammia wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, I haven't played in a few editions, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried a Sacred Rose canoness with Wrath of the Emperor, the Righteous Judgement blessing, and the Sacred Rose Warlord trait.

It seems like you could get a mortal wound and 2 damage AP - 2 (assuming Divine Guidance) wound every round at 18" ignoring LOS, plus 3 additional chances to roll for more at the cost of half a miracle die of any face.

It hasn't won any GTs, but people have been playing around with SR.

It's an interesting idea but 'considered to be a 6' isn't an unmodified 6, so it *shouldn't* work.

p.91: "A Miracle dice is not a modifier or an inherently modified dice (so, for example, if you use a Miracle dice with a value of 1 for a Morale test, that is considered to be an unmodified roll of 1.)" The WL trait doesn't modify the miracle dice into a 6 because, by definition, it can't be modified. The trait says regardless of what that one MD per turn was, it's a 6 now. The value of a miracle dice that gets used counts as if you rolled that result, so it counts as an unmodified 6.

It says miracle dice aren't inherently modified dice. You can absoutely modify them.

But that's something that can cleared up in a faq

Except we've had like 6 FAQs since miracle dice came out and it hasn't been so...

Mavnas wrote:
That interpretation would gut already kind of lackluster ways of turning your MD into a 6.

...A six is still a six. It's a SoF save, a maximum advance roll, a wound on anything, half a 12 inch charge. It's not nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

Lammia wrote:

yadrzzob wrote:

Lammia wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, I haven't played in a few editions, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried a Sacred Rose canoness with Wrath of the Emperor, the Righteous Judgement blessing, and the Sacred Rose Warlord trait.

It seems like you could get a mortal wound and 2 damage AP - 2 (assuming Divine Guidance) wound every round at 18" ignoring LOS, plus 3 additional chances to roll for more at the cost of half a miracle die of any face.

It hasn't won any GTs, but people have been playing around with SR.

It's an interesting idea but 'considered to be a 6' isn't an unmodified 6, so it *shouldn't* work.

p.91: "A Miracle dice is not a modifier or an inherently modified dice (so, for example, if you use a Miracle dice with a value of 1 for a Morale test, that is considered to be an unmodified roll of 1.)" The WL trait doesn't modify the miracle dice into a 6 because, by definition, it can't be modified. The trait says regardless of what that one MD per turn was, it's a 6 now. The value of a miracle dice that gets used counts as if you rolled that result, so it counts as an unmodified 6.

It says miracle dice aren't inherently modified dice. You can absoutely modify them.

But that's something that can cleared up in a faq

Except we've had like 6 FAQs since miracle dice came out and it hasn't been so...

We had a day 0 patch since this Codex came out...

Lammia wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
That interpretation would gut already kind of lackluster ways of turning your MD into a 6.

...A six is still a six. It's a SoF save, a maximum advance roll, a wound on anything, half a 12 inch charge. It's not nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

Lammia wrote:

yadrzzob wrote:

Lammia wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, I haven't played in a few editions, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried a Sacred Rose canoness with Wrath of the Emperor, the Righteous Judgement blessing, and the Sacred Rose Warlord trait.

It seems like you could get a mortal wound and 2 damage AP - 2 (assuming Divine Guidance) wound every round at 18" ignoring LOS, plus 3 additional chances to roll for more at the cost of half a miracle die of any face.

It hasn't won any GTs, but people have been playing around with SR.

It's an interesting idea but 'considered to be a 6' isn't an unmodified 6, so it *shouldn't* work.

p.91: "A Miracle dice is not a modifier or an inherently modified dice (so, for example, if you use a Miracle dice with a value of 1 for a Morale test, that is considered to be an unmodified roll of 1.)" The WL trait doesn't modify the miracle dice into a 6 because, by definition, it can't be modified. The trait says regardless of what that one MD per turn was, it's a 6 now. The value of a miracle dice that gets used counts as if you rolled that result, so it counts as an unmodified 6.

It says miracle dice aren't inherently modified dice. You can absoutely modify them.

But that's something that can cleared up in a faq

Except we've had like 6 FAQs since miracle dice came out and it hasn't been so...

We had a day 0 patch since this Codex came out...

But the modifying of miracle dice has functioned the same way since the original launch of the 8th edition codex and Terrible Knowledge has also been essentially the same since then. So 'does an auto 6 = unmodified 6?' has been around for years now.

The 'day zero' FAQ was roughly the 6th opportunity they've had to address it and they haven't.

ERJAK wrote:

Lammia wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
That interpretation would gut already kind of lackluster ways of turning your MD into a 6.

...A six is still a six. It's a SoF save, a maximum advance roll, a wound on anything, half a 12 inch charge. It's not nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ERJAK wrote:

Lammia wrote:

yadrzzob wrote:

Lammia wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
So, I haven't played in a few editions, but I'm wondering if anyone has tried a Sacred Rose canoness with Wrath of the Emperor, the Righteous Judgement blessing, and the Sacred Rose Warlord trait.

It seems like you could get a mortal wound and 2 damage AP - 2 (assuming Divine Guidance) wound every round at 18" ignoring LOS, plus 3 additional chances to roll for more at the cost of half a miracle die of any face.

It hasn't won any GTs, but people have been playing around with SR.

It's an interesting idea but 'considered to be a 6' isn't an unmodified 6, so it *shouldn't* work.

p.91: "A Miracle dice is not a modifier or an inherently modified dice (so, for example, if you use a Miracle dice with a value of 1 for a Morale test, that is considered to be an unmodified roll of 1.)" The WL trait doesn't modify the miracle dice into a 6 because, by definition, it can't be modified. The trait says regardless of what that one MD per turn was, it's a 6 now. The value of a miracle dice that gets used counts as if you rolled that result, so it counts as an unmodified 6.

It says miracle dice aren't inherently modified dice. You can absoutely modify them.

But that's something that can cleared up in a faq

Except we've had like 6 FAQs since miracle dice came out and it hasn't been so...

We had a day 0 patch since this Codex came out...

But the modifying of miracle dice has functioned the same way since the original launch of the 8th edition codex and Terrible Knowledge has also been essentially the same since then. So 'does an auto 6 = unmodified 6?' has been around for years now.

The 'day zero' FAQ was roughly the 6th opportunity they've had to address it and they haven't.

Terrible Knowledge is different from the SR WL trait though; it creates the die as a 6. Light of the Divine changes the value of an existing dice, closer to Moment of Grace's effect.

This WL trait didn't exist before, so there's only been one 'phoned in' FaQ that could've answered this case.

Is there anything preventing you from putting a Battle Sanctum on top of a control point? It becomes a terrain feature when you place it I the deployment phase, which seems to sidestep the "control points cannot be in area terrain" part of battlefield setup.

Hankovitch wrote:
Is there anything preventing you from putting a Battle Sanctum on top of a control point? It becomes a terrain feature when you place it I the deployment phase, which seems to sidestep the "control points cannot be in area terrain" part of battlefield setup.

Area terrain can't be put over objectives.

Lammia wrote:

Hankovitch wrote:
Is there anything preventing you from putting a Battle Sanctum on top of a control point? It becomes a terrain feature when you place it I the deployment phase, which seems to sidestep the "control points cannot be in area terrain" part of battlefield setup.

Area terrain can't be put over objectives.

Correct answer, incomplete reason. Fortifications always count as terrain features, which can't be placed on top of objectives. The fact that it becomes area terrain after setup is irrelevant.

However, you can put a battle sanctum 1mm away from the objectve market and still contest the objective through it.

ERJAK wrote:

Lammia wrote:

Hankovitch wrote:
Is there anything preventing you from putting a Battle Sanctum on top of a control point? It becomes a terrain feature when you place it I the deployment phase, which seems to sidestep the "control points cannot be in area terrain" part of battlefield setup.

Area terrain can't be put over objectives.

Correct answer, incomplete reason. Fortifications always count as terrain features, which can't be placed on top of objectives. The fact that it becomes area terrain after setup is irrelevant.

However, you can put a battle sanctum 1mm away from the objectve market and still contest the objective through it.

This is why I have a micrometer in my gaming bag.

ERJAK wrote:

Lammia wrote:

Hankovitch wrote:
Is there anything preventing you from putting a Battle Sanctum on top of a control point? It becomes a terrain feature when you place it I the deployment phase, which seems to sidestep the "control points cannot be in area terrain" part of battlefield setup.

Area terrain can't be put over objectives.

Correct answer, incomplete reason. Fortifications always count as terrain features, which can't be placed on top of objectives. The fact that it becomes area terrain after setup is irrelevant.

However, you can put a battle sanctum 1mm away from the objectve market and still contest the objective through it.

Actually that ones debated. Some people count the objective as the centre of the objective marker and some people count the objective as the whole area of the objective. In which case you can't do that the latter interpretation is more common in my experience.

However given it has to be a set distance from other terrain features it is largely unplaceable anyway.

 deviantduck wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Lammia wrote:

Hankovitch wrote:
Is there anything preventing you from putting a Battle Sanctum on top of a control point? It becomes a terrain feature when you place it I the deployment phase, which seems to sidestep the "control points cannot be in area terrain" part of battlefield setup.

Area terrain can't be put over objectives.

Correct answer, incomplete reason. Fortifications always count as terrain features, which can't be placed on top of objectives. The fact that it becomes area terrain after setup is irrelevant.

However, you can put a battle sanctum 1mm away from the objectve market and still contest the objective through it.

This is why I have a micrometer in my gaming bag.

I understand the necessity sometimes, with some people, but it's still sad that you need one.

The new Sisters models presented for Killteam are looking very nice. What do you guys think, will we see these models as a new unit in 40k any time soon?

And if so, in what role? I guess they would fit nicely into the codex as a second troop unit. 4+ armour, perhaps bs/ws4+ and no acces to bolters/special weapons. Would we find a use for such a unit?

 Singleton Mosby wrote:
The new Sisters models presented for Killteam are looking very nice. What do you guys think, will we see these models as a new unit in 40k any time soon?

And if so, in what role? I guess they would fit nicely into the codex as a second troop unit. 4+ armour, perhaps bs/ws4+ and no acces to bolters/special weapons. Would we find a use for such a unit?

If they're a troop and they're cheaper than battle sisters they're better than battle sisters.

If they were even just 8ppm instead of 11, they could be T2, S2, BS 6+, WS6+, 7+ Save, LD 1, doesn't benefit from army special rules, no <order> keyword and it would NOT matter. 90% of a battle sister's value is in being a troop and having at least 1 wound. 7% is the 3+ armor, 3% is the BS3+.

It's weird to me that this wasn't immediately obvious to everyone who started talking about them as troops(in other places). No one has taken a chaos space marine in like...5 editions because of how much better cultists are. They had to push intercessors SUPER hard AND move scouts to an elite choice to stop people from taking them. A cheaper troop choice will be the better troop choice in the majority of situations. Look at all the ork lists that max out on gretchin.

I deeply, deeply hope that these are elites or fast attacks OR that they're the same price as battle sisters because even at 10ppm I can't really see a point to taking a 55pt squad of battle sisters over a 50pt squad of these.

If I had to guess their profile I'd have to say WS4+ BS4+ or 3+ S3 T3 W1 A1 Ld7 Sv5+. Probably anywhere from 6-9ppm. If they're troops, they'll probably have a place as your cheap obsec objective holders, especially in the backfield. I'm not sure that they'll made Battle Sisters redundant, especially if they give them a "one per BSS like Cultists". If they're not troops, then they're probably not going to compete with Crusaders (for cheapness) and Seraphim (for mobility).

Having played quite a few games with the current Sisters book, and seen plenty of Goonhammer articles detailing Sisters lists that are winning events, here is my revised tier list of our units:

Morvenn Vahl: S Tier: This is exactly where I predicted she would be. She's absolutely an auto-include in competitive play.

Canoness: A Tier: Turns out the Blessings are pretty good on a properly kitted-out Canoness. To me, Bloody Rose with a Blessed Blade and Rapturous Blows is probably one of the best setups, but Martyred Lady can do a pretty killy one from their supplement and there are certainly other good loadouts. You can definitely make a decent list without a Canoness though.

Palatine: B Tier: Great for bringing one of the utility Blessings (such as Word of the Emperor) as cheaply as possible, otherwise with Morvenn she's kind of redundant.

Junith Eruita: C Tier: Martyred Lady have a somewhat more useful Canoness loadout from the supplement as mentioned above. Between that and Morvenn you don't really need Junith. She's not awful, but there are better choices.

Missionary: D Tier: Just take a Preacher. Or better yet a Dogmata. Between Vahl, Celestine, and utility Canonesses, we don't need "slot fillers" that much.

Celestine: S Tier: She's good, REAL good. Probably another auto-include, although I did run a list in an event last month without her and didn't sorely miss her. But then, I didn't exactly finish in the top 10 without her either...

Triumph of Saint Katherine: C Tier: Few people are taking this in competitive lists, although it is occasionally done. You really have to build around it and even then I don't think it's optimal. Further testing may be required (I don't own the model so someone else will have to test it ).

Ephrael Stern & Kyganil: B Tier: Rising in popularity, from what I've seen, so honestly the jury's still out on this pair. I still think they are a discount Celestine, but I might pick the models up and give them a try.

Battle Sister Squad: B Tier: Still our only troops (for now, we'll see what Force Org slot the upcoming Novitiates will be), but you see a fair few lists with only a single basic unit as a tax for a Patrol. It seems that the 20-girl brick is also an idea that hasn't really panned out, which doesn't surprise me. Personally I still think there's a good list out there with a bunch of these each with a MM in an Argent Shroud detachment, but so far we haven't seen it competitively unless I totally missed it. Hence the demotion to B Tier.

Aestred Thurga & Agathae Dolan: D Tier: Nobody is taking these in competitive play. To the surprise of no one. Mostly the problem is that they compete for a crowded slot (Elites).

Imagifier: C Tier: I honestly thought these would be more useful, but this is another unit that you don't see in comp lists. I'd rate them D-Tier but I personally wonder if there might yet be a use for them nobody's figured out yet. A couple of the available buffs are decent.

Dialogus: C Tier: I originally thought this was the best priest in the book. I was way off in that estimation. In the one game I ran her, she did diddly-squat for me. And this seems to be borne out in the comp scene, as nobody else is using one either.

Preacher: C Tier: I personally think it could be worth running one of these if you wanted to take Arco-Flagellants (jump out of a Rhino with them, use the strat to auto-cast War Hymn outside the Command phase, profit), but there really isn't much reason to take a Preacher outside of this one niche use, as far as I can tell. A Dogmata does the job much better otherwise.

Celestians: C Tier: Nobody's taking them because they are generalists in a game that rewards specialists, but to me they aren't an awful unit. I'll admit I have yet to find a niche for them, and apparently nobody else has either.

Celestian Sacresants: S Tier: Just having the Bodyguard rule makes them basically an auto-include, especially in a Bloody Rose list. Honestly they do just fine in other lists as well as you don't take them for just their raw offensive output. Halberds seem to be the way to go, as the good AP on them is often worth more than the extra damage from the maces.

Hospitaller: B Tier: Kind of a "take it or leave it" option. Useful in some lists, but definitely won't make the cut in others.

Dogmata: A Tier: Best priest in the book, hands down. The ObSec buff alone is pretty nice; combine that with the ability to shoot without disrupting actions and the hymns and you have a very nice little force multiplier. I'm still trying to get the hang of using her to the fullest myself, but I'm already convinced she's good.

Paragon Warsuits: D Tier: Sadly, these haven't really panned out, with a couple of exceptions. The meta is just inimical to them at the moment, and they are overcosted. Hopefully that eventually changes; I want to run my Nundams, dammit!

Repentia Superior: B Tier: Not a strictly necessary edition to a list even in Bloody Rose, but probably a good buy if you want to footslog Repentia. Footslogging Repentia may not be the best plan though, as I've found out.

Sisters Repentia: A Tier: These are definitely one of the best "trade piece" units in the book. Even a small unit, in the Bloody Rose order, can kill something worth triple their points without breaking a sweat. Just watch out for Death Guard, Dreadnoughts, or anything vehicular and Orky; damage reduction effects are their Achilles' heel.

Crusaders: B Tier: Still great for the "action slaves" role, as they are very cheap. Recently some players have started running a couple of proper units of them though; I guess maybe there's some decent play there?

Arco-Flagellants: B Tier: I rate these lower than before due to my lack of testing and the fact that I haven't seen them in many top lists; I plan to give them a proper shakedown soon enough. I definitely think there's potential for them in some lists.

Death Cult Assassins: B Tier: An alternative to Crusaders as action slaves; less popular since the do cost a bit more, but they do basically the same job.

Dominion Squad: S Tier: Perhaps not a total auto-include, but I absolutely love these! The ability to get a pregame move on a Rhino can be clutch, and they are great for carrying 4 ACSBs and using Blessed Bolts.

Seraphim Squad: B Tier: Personally I still don't care for these, but some players who are a lot better at this game than me have been having good success with them (in Ebon Chalice detachments), so I'll defer to their wisdom. The melta ones are still trash.

Zephyrim Squad: A Tier: I like small units of them as harassment in a non-BR list, but if I'm running BR I'll take a full unit of ten and go murder something. Probably the second best melee unit in the book (after Repentia).

Retributor Squad: A Tier: I'm very glad that I was wrong about them initially; they are actually still very relevant in lists. I think units with 4 MM are a thing of the past in general though; mixed units with Meltas and Flamers seem to be the most popular option. To me, even the humble Heavy Bolter is good in the right situation, although it is the least good option.

Mortifiers: B Tier: I've had mixed success with these; in a couple of games they were amazing, but in others they were utter trash. They do show up in top tournament lists sometimes though, so maybe I'm playing them wrong.

Penitent Engines: B Tier: I'm actually considering running single ones of these and using them the same way Chaos players use Spawn: as a vector to score positional secondaries like Engage on All Fronts. The ability to advance and charge some chaff unit could really help them leap across large distances in a hurry, making them ideal for this role. Just don't charge something that will kill it easily!

Exorcist: D Tier: As predicted, they just aren't good, even with the strat to ignore LoS. They are just too expensive.

Castigator: D Tier: Same as the Exorcist; too many points for not enough utility.

Rhino: A Tier: While some lists probably don't need these, they are useful most of the time, if only to protect expensive units from getting splatted easily on the first turn of the game. I don't see myself running a Rhino-less list anytime soon.

Immolator: F Tier: Bad unit is still bad. 30 point decrease and maybe we can talk, but until then, it can stay on the shelf (at the FLGS that is, I'm not buying one for 75 USD unless it's actually decent).

Battle Sanctum: D Tier: Most tournament terrain setups still make these unusable, but in events with player-placed terrain they actually seem to be okay.

It's been interesting to see which of my predictions were borne out and which turned out to be way off. I'm hardly an expert, but at least now I can speak about this book from experience. Overall we do have a pretty decent selection of units, and the army is still perhaps the most fun army I've ever run in terms of having lots of tricks. We'll see how Sisters continue to stack up as more codexes are released.

Just played a game vs. my friend's Orks. The mission was the one where you get to move the objectives around (with the mission secondary of holding the one in your deployment zone, basically free 15 points unless you let your backfield get overrun). I was trying out my latest competitive list, a pure Argent Shroud list that was as follows:

My opponent had the following:

I chose the mission secondary, To The Last, and Bring Them Down; my opponent chose the mission secondary, Retrieve Octarius Data, and Stranglehold. My three most expensive units (relevant for TTL) were Morvenn, Celestine, and the Sacresants.
I ended up winning the game (final score was 87-60 or so), due to some pretty insane luck with the dice and due to just how strong the Argent Shroud order conviction is. MSU Meltas is the real deal, I think; it certainly is a viable playstyle for Sisters, along with Bloody Rose Melee and other good builds. The reroll a hit or wound for each of the melta units is extremely strong, and the ability to advance while still firing at full effectiveness is also quite useful. One thing I'm working on is how to deploy properly with the Sacresants and the two big characters; I deployed them too far back and played way too cagey with them, which could have cost me the game had a few things gone differently. If you play Morvenn too conservatively, you're wasting her excellent melee capabilities. Just watch out for stuff like Ghazghkull Thraka that can dumptruck her even with her damage reduction. Same goes for the Sacresants; they need to be able to credibly threaten the midboard, yet remain in terrain out of LOS if possible to maximize their utility with the Bodyguard ability. Celestine I think did some good work in this game, and she could have done even more if I'd played better. The other major standout unit for me was the Arco-Flagellants. Those guys are decently durable with their 2 wounds and 5+++, and with a combination of Extremis Trigger Word and War Hymn they put out 9 attacks apiece, easily enough to mulch something worth more points than themselves. In my game, even after losing most of the squad from their transport dying and getting charged by the Squighog Boyz (the Rhino exploded and did 2 mortal wounds to those before they charged), they still managed to get 8 5+ wound rolls on 10 hits and wiped those squig riders. The three surviving Arcos then proceeded to charge and kill a 10-man Boyz unit on an objective (with the help of War Hymn/Trigger Word) before finally being killed (soaking a decent amount of firepower as they died). Just nuts!

Some good Sisters builds in the latest Competitive Innovations article from Goonhammer:
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-three-apiece/
The main one that really has me fascinated is the last one in the article, a pure Martyred Lady build with no Morvenn Vahl or Celestine at all. I'd love to give that one a try myself sometime! The other Sisters lists are pretty standard stuff, although one of them used Valorous Heart instead of Ebon Chalice or Argent Shroud alongside Bloody Rose, which is at least a slightly different spin on a common list archetype.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Some good Sisters builds in the latest Competitive Innovations article from Goonhammer:
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-three-apiece/
The main one that really has me fascinated is the last one in the article, a pure Martyred Lady build with no Morvenn Vahl or Celestine at all. I'd love to give that one a try myself sometime! The other Sisters lists are pretty standard stuff, although one of them used Valorous Heart instead of Ebon Chalice or Argent Shroud alongside Bloody Rose, which is at least a slightly different spin on a common list archetype.

That OoML list is fascinating, as a OoML player myself it's nice to see someone going outside the obvious archetype and having success. I've always maintained that OoML have some nice tricks that make them an interesting choice.

On another note, Sacresants. Should I run a single unit of 5 or is it best to go for the full 10-woman unit to guarantee their sheer durability?

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Some good Sisters builds in the latest Competitive Innovations article from Goonhammer:
https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-three-apiece/
The main one that really has me fascinated is the last one in the article, a pure Martyred Lady build with no Morvenn Vahl or Celestine at all. I'd love to give that one a try myself sometime! The other Sisters lists are pretty standard stuff, although one of them used Valorous Heart instead of Ebon Chalice or Argent Shroud alongside Bloody Rose, which is at least a slightly different spin on a common list archetype.

That OoML list is fascinating, as a OoML player myself it's nice to see someone going outside the obvious archetype and having success. I've always maintained that OoML have some nice tricks that make them an interesting choice.

On another note, Sacresants. Should I run a single unit of 5 or is it best to go for the full 10-woman unit to guarantee their sheer durability?

I prefer to run a unit of 10 with the Halberds (take the Spear on the Superior though; it's worth it for the 2 damage); makes them a bit harder to shift plus a bit more board coverage for bodyguard shenanigans.

Novitiates are cheaper than I expected at 75pts for 10 models and 4+ armour is better than I expected too. Can even punch above their weight with the Zealot or Fanatic strat if you have a Priest nearby and you can give them 2 attacks if you swap out their Autogun (which IMHO is probably wisest). Poor Battle Sisters need a point drop because these are definitely going to be more popular as both backfield campers and budget, obsec Arco-flagellants.

They seem great for reserves with a built in reroll charge in a BR list

You need to remember the rule saying that you can't include more units than battle sisters so their is still a place for battle sisters

U02dah4 wrote:
You need to remember the rule saying that you can't include more units than battle sisters so their is still a place for battle sisters

Ahh I missed that part in my once-over, that's good.

Novitiates seem good, but I don't see myself running more than one unit of them. Being stuck at 10 models size means they can't share a Rhino with a buff character (and can't fit in an Immolator at all, if it matters), which sucks for keeping them supported (they need a priest nearby for the Holy Rage strat). They are probably best used as a backfield deterrent unit, camping an objective and punishing someone who gets close enough. If you really stack the buffs, they can get up to 5 attacks per model (1 base, +1 for melee weapon, +1 for charging from their own rule, +1 for being Bloody Rose and charging, +1 if you chant War Hymn on them from a priest), which is bananas on such a cheap unit! It's just that getting them there could be an issue, hence my suggestion to use them in the backfield.

I actually wonder if there is merit to the idea of taking 2 flamers in the unit in an Ebon Chalice setup to give you even more angles on their Mortal Wound strat. Probably not since we already have Seraphim for that, but...eh.

I just think it's nice to finally have a second troop choice.

Honestly, they aren't anything world-breaking, but I think scrounging 20 points in a BR detachment to trade out 1 unit of BBS is worth it. You're going to have a dogmata almost certainly, and they're a nice cheap tool for mid-to-late game threat where a BBS would do nothing. They cost so little they are worth being just 10 bodies.

...but if you 'turn them on' with even the most trivial of buffs (+1 attack) it's suddenly 50 attacks.

...if you have vahl and a rapturous blows cannnoness around, it's also like 13 mortals, plus 38~(t4) 22~ (t5-7), 14~ (t8+) ap -1 wounds...so like, it kills anything other than a knight in one go and almost kills a knight.

Mind you I'm not saying you should build to do that (you shouldn't) but these are all reasonable tools many armies will have. The fact that they are otherwise 10 cheap obsec core wounds that just can also do all of that other stuff to me really shows some good value, particularly for mid to late game plays.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Interestingly, they are very comparable to arco-flagelants: roughly the same durability per point, T3, 4+ and SoF vs T4 5++, 1 more point per wound, though more favorable for the new girls since 1 wound is always better than 2 per point. Roughly 30% less output per point (4 S4 ap-1 for 14 points vs 4 S5 ap-1 zealot for 13 points) but much better access to strats/support and, critically, obsec.

Arcos have felt like an almost-good unit for a while now. But slotting into a better slot (elite vs troops), having obsec, arguably a tiny bit more durability and better support for essentially a 30% reduction in offense (in a vacuum, since buffed the units are much closer) really feels like probably enough to push into 'yup I'll take these' territory.

I think 1 is an easy replacement if your takeing 3 bss I would be tempted to take a second

Can someone explain this rule to me. Both Mortifiers and Penitent Engines have this rule.

"Instrument of Pain and Penance - this unit cannot perform any actions"

But ... both are vehicles. Like since when have vehicles been able to perform actions?

Seems like a total waste of ink space to even have this rule.

There's no universal "vehicles cannot perform action" rule. Only units universally banned from doing those are aircraft and fortifications while for rest of action it depends on action itself to limit. While most of the actions say "infantry" there are some(at least in mission specific" ones that say "one unit from your army". These can be done via vehicles as well.

First such scenario I found: incursion 33.

It's a catch all rule. Should any scenario have an opportunity for a the unit to perform an action, the rules says no because they exist only to cause pain.

So if we take a super heavy aux detachment with Sisters, we lose miracle dice, do we lose sacred rites too?

Yes; both of those things are our "faction pure" bonuses.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Yes; both of those things are our "faction pure" bonuses.

are you sure?

Sacred Rites are not a purity bonus. They don’t even require a Adepta Sororitas detachment.

Lammia wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Yes; both of those things are our "faction pure" bonuses.

are you sure?

I asked because I could see we lose miracle dice, but I didn't see the same for sacred rights. we keep convictions because it explicitly allows super heavy aux. Anyone else have any input?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alextroy wrote:
Sacred Rites are not a purity bonus. They don’t even require a Adepta Sororitas detachment.

so it's only micarcle dice then?

Correct. They reversed which one was the purity bonus between the 8th and 9th edition codexes.

 alextroy wrote:
Correct. They reversed which one was the purity bonus between the 8th and 9th edition codexes.

Okay, guess I was thinking of the previous book. My bad. It's never come up for me since I've never run Sisters in a soup list.

Whoops I guess Dakka didn't show there was a new page for me for some reason

So what are the most consistent secondaries for us to take?

Leap of faith if you build to it

but it very Much varies based on your build.

Engage on all fronts Is a common pick

Engage on All Fronts, Retrieve Octarius Data are probably the ones I pick the most, but then just about everybody picks those two. I actually have had some success with To The Last, with Morvenn Vahl, Celestine, and my big unit of Sacresants needing to stay alive to score it. Bodyguard tricks are the real deal and have won me games. Other than those, the only Sisters one I've used much is Defend the Shrine, and that's only a good pick on a few missions.

An interesting Sisters list made it into the Lists of the Week section of the latest Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-december-duels/

Paragons, Immolators, and Penitent Engines were the main focus of the list; all units that are generally considered subpar at best (I've always thought Immolators were trash; shows what I know, eh?).

Here's hoping that when the new Chapter Approved drops (with its points updates), some of the less competitive Sisters stuff gets a points drop. Exorcists and Castigators need to drop by at least 20 to even be worth a look, and Paragons should be at least 10 ppm cheaper as well (although, as seen above, some players can seem to make them work). Immolators really need a points drop too. I am, however, fully expecting Morvenn Vahl to get a price bump; she's insanely good for her current points cost.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
An interesting Sisters list made it into the Lists of the Week section of the latest Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-december-duels/

Paragons, Immolators, and Penitent Engines were the main focus of the list; all units that are generally considered subpar at best (I've always thought Immolators were trash; shows what I know, eh?).

Here's hoping that when the new Chapter Approved drops (with its points updates), some of the less competitive Sisters stuff gets a points drop. Exorcists and Castigators need to drop by at least 20 to even be worth a look, and Paragons should be at least 10 ppm cheaper as well (although, as seen above, some players can seem to make them work). Immolators really need a points drop too. I am, however, fully expecting Morvenn Vahl to get a price bump; she's insanely good for her current points cost.

Immolators and Paragons have a very specific niche against mech heavy lists. The biggest being that they tend to flatten SM dreadnaughts fairly well, which are both a popular pick and something a lot of popular sister's setups don't have great answers for.

If you're expecting a lot of dreadnaught, admech armor, raiders, buggies, the way we are now, they're a good pick. The chassis for the immolator is still probably 20pts overpriced though, which is why the immolation flamer version is nowhere to be seen. I agree with the 10ppm for Paragons as well.

That's also a list that wants to bury a couple of specific targets in melta fire and then just kinda coast out the rest of the game on objectives, which rhino chassis vehicles are pretty good at considering most armies bring the minimum amount of anti-tank they can get away with to avoid losing huge chunks of their army to darklances.

Exorcist's big problem is that it costs 2CP per turn to shoot. Until they make that a 1CP strat, it could be 140 and it still wouldn't see any play. Castigators are unsalvageable.

ERJAK wrote:
Exorcist's big problem is that it costs 2CP per turn to shoot. Until they make that a 1CP strat, it could be 140 and it still wouldn't see any play. Castigators are unsalvageable.

Honestly I think the Exorcist might be okay-ish at 140. You don't have to use the stratagem; you could just direct fire it at something, and 3d3 krak missiles is nothing any player with tanks wants to see coming at them. I definitely agree that the strat should be 1CP though; not sure what the hell GW was thinking making it 2CP when other armies get non-LOS shooting baked into their datasheets.

I don't know that the Castigator is unsalvageable; it would have to be like 130 (the current cost of a Drukhari Ravager) to be worth taking, and even then we have other units that do basically the same job, so it would probably be in the same boat as Celestians (okay unit, but just not needed).

 deviantduck wrote:
So what are the most consistent secondaries for us to take?

I'm actually finding Sacred Grounds to be a pretty decent codex secondary since Celestine can perform it.

Just body guard her with shield girls and she can just stand on the point and finish the action. Now it depends on what the map looks like, but when there is a close objective or 2 this is an easy 8-12 points since it also completes at the end of the game potentially letting you nap a middle objective if you are going second. But Celestine almost guarantees 8 on this since when she does finally die on a 2+ she'll revive and still finish the action.

Other than that, we do engage pretty naturally. Rod if you build for it is pretty good, if you take celestine and vahl building a to the last target is pretty simple since it's hard to kill them through bodyguards. If you are melee focused stranglehold is also usually pretty strong as sisters can generally trade a unit to take a point.

One important thing to note, and it will affect our list building: ROD is going away soonish, to be replaced with RND (Retrieve Nachmund Data). 2-man "action slave" units just aren't going to cut it anymore, and even a 5-model unit will have a 1/6 chance of failing unless that unit has ObSec. I'm wondering if we are going to start seeing more small BSS units in lists, or perhaps 6-girl Seraphim units (since 6 models guarantees a success). Personally I'm of the opinion that RND will not be anywhere near as universally chosen as ROD was (and that goes for all armies, not just Sisters), and that armies that do want to go for RND are going to be much more purpose-built with it in mind.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
One important thing to note, and it will affect our list building: ROD is going away soonish, to be replaced with RND (Retrieve Nachmund Data). 2-man "action slave" units just aren't going to cut it anymore, and even a 5-model unit will have a 1/6 chance of failing unless that unit has ObSec. I'm wondering if we are going to start seeing more small BSS units in lists, or perhaps 6-girl Seraphim units (since 6 models guarantees a success). Personally I'm of the opinion that RND will not be anywhere near as universally chosen as ROD was (and that goes for all armies, not just Sisters), and that armies that do want to go for RND are going to be much more purpose-built with it in mind.

It was mentioned that its troops, not necessarily obsec, and it was the same for some of the other objectives(like teleport homers)

Bloody rose supplement incoming I guess?

The stratagem's they showed off are EXTREMELY meh. The one for Paragon Warsuits is obnoxiously specific. Fueled by rage is a shooting stratagem in an army that doesn't really shoot (outside of Retributors who get punished for using it). Firey(spelling?) example is worse than both Righteous Rage and their existing warlord trait. Armor of True Sacrifice is interesting but it basically creates a sac character. Do we have a way of inflicting damage on our own units? Because if we do that could be an awesome way to gain miracle dice.

It IS nice that they're working on letting us generate more miracle dice again. That was one of the major areas the new Codex failed compared the old one. Realistically, we get so few miracle dice that I'm surprised we haven't seen more experimentation with allying in shooting components.


Looking at these a second time, it looks like there's a lot of effort to push paragon warsuits so far. Both stratagems only really work on Paragons.

I'm certainly whelmed. How many rules can we stack on a canoness until it's too many?

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm certainly whelmed. How many rules can we stack on a canoness until it's too many?

What's funny is that the ideal use of that relic is to put it on a stock Palantine and slowly kill it yourself. 45pts and 1 CP for 5 miracle dice is totally worth. Anything else is a complete waste. Like your opponent is just going to sit back and very carefully do 1 wound per phase so you can max out your MD from it.

The warlord trait is just straight up terrible.

ERJAK wrote:
Looking at these a second time, it looks like there's a lot of effort to push paragon warsuits so far. Both stratagems only really work on Paragons.

We'll see how hard they are trying to push Paragons whenever the new points update comes out. They need at minimum a 10 ppm drop to be viable, probably more like 15-20 ppm (don't see them getting that much though).

The first strat they showed seems like it would be good to help Paragons be good at horde-clearing; usually you'll probably take meltas which aren't great vs. hordes so having another tool to help deal with loads of gribblies is not a bad thing. The other one would be good on a variety of shooting units (pity they jacked up the CP cost to use it on Retributors; funnily enough it's still just 1CP for Paragons!). One problem I've had is that Retributors tend to be a "one and done" unit because once they are out of their transports they have a massive bullseye on them, so this at least helps make sure they take out one more target before they go down. The warlord trait is way too situational (I'm sure there are more in the book though that are perhaps better), but the relic might actually be good on a fighty Canoness (I might choose it instead of the Mantle of Ophelia on my usual murder-Canoness build just for the chance of getting more Miracle dice). You'll get at least one extra Miracle dice from it even if your character gets instantly punked.

I look forward to finding out what else Bloody Rose get from the book; the Martyred Lady stuff from the other book wasn't too shabby even if it wasn't quite enough to make them super competitive.

New leaks from CA 2022.

Morvenn, Sacresanct and Novitiates (????) all took significant hits. (A unit of novitiates is ONE HUNDRED POINTS stock now, which means you can throw yours out because they were only seeing fringe use at 75.)

Paragons got a 10ppm drop (woo...)

Exorcists and Immolators went down 10ppm(bullgak)

But the big kick in the dick is that you apparently aren't able to mix subfactions anymore. Which means we drop down probably close to a full tier as an army.

GW sucks.

Do you have a link or source to share about these leaks? I would think if you can't mix subfactions they would do this to other books as well like TSons who mix their cults.

skycapt44 wrote:
Do you have a link or source to share about these leaks? I would think if you can't mix subfactions they would do this to other books as well like TSons who mix their cults.

That's You with a capital Y. As in NO ONE can mix their Chapter tactics anymore. It's apparently from the Canhammer podcast or something? Saw the leaked list on Bolter and chainsword.

what do you mean by mix subfactions? you can't have a detachment of bloody rose and a detachment of ooml?

or do you mean junith can't be in a bloody rose detachment?

 deviantduck wrote:
what do you mean by mix subfactions? you can't have a detachment of bloody rose and a detachment of ooml?

or do you mean junith can't be in a bloody rose detachment?

You can no longer take bloody rose and OOML in the same army.

ERJAK wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
what do you mean by mix subfactions? you can't have a detachment of bloody rose and a detachment of ooml?

or do you mean junith can't be in a bloody rose detachment?

You can no longer take bloody rose and OOML in the same army.

That neuters us quite a bit.

ERJAK wrote:
New leaks from CA 2022.

Morvenn, Sacresanct and Novitiates (????) all took significant hits. (A unit of novitiates is ONE HUNDRED POINTS stock now, which means you can throw yours out because they were only seeing fringe use at 75.)

Paragons got a 10ppm drop (woo...)

Exorcists and Immolators went down 10ppm(bullgak)

But the big kick in the dick is that you apparently aren't able to mix subfactions anymore. Which means we drop down probably close to a full tier as an army.

GW sucks.

Vahl was inevitable, I'm curious how much Sacresants go up though. 14ppm isn't far off from where they deserve to be, their main issue is that the bodyguard rule can be abused badly for them. Novitiates don't deserve a bump at all, I don't understand why they would get one.

10ppm for Paragons, Exorcists and Immolators are helpful but they need more to be truly viable.

Can you explain not being able to mix sub-factions? Surely the flexible army construction GW allows will allow us to have mixed subfactions still in some regard, is it just removing order rules in some manner or is it flat-out disallowed now? Is this a Sisters-only nerf or game-wide? It's definitely going to hurt Sisters since that's the default competitive setup for us, but as a more casual player who's just running one detachment anyway it doesn't affect me too much. Maybe we'll see OOML getting some play now.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
New leaks from CA 2022.

Morvenn, Sacresanct and Novitiates (????) all took significant hits. (A unit of novitiates is ONE HUNDRED POINTS stock now, which means you can throw yours out because they were only seeing fringe use at 75.)

Paragons got a 10ppm drop (woo...)

Exorcists and Immolators went down 10ppm(bullgak)

But the big kick in the dick is that you apparently aren't able to mix subfactions anymore. Which means we drop down probably close to a full tier as an army.

GW sucks.

Vahl was inevitable, I'm curious how much Sacresants go up though. 14ppm isn't far off from where they deserve to be, their main issue is that the bodyguard rule can be abused badly for them. Novitiates don't deserve a bump at all, I don't understand why they would get one.

10ppm for Paragons, Exorcists and Immolators are helpful but they need more to be truly viable.

Can you explain not being able to mix sub-factions? Surely the flexible army construction GW allows will allow us to have mixed subfactions still in some regard, is it just removing order rules in some manner or is it flat-out disallowed now? Is this a Sisters-only nerf or game-wide? It's definitely going to hurt Sisters since that's the default competitive setup for us, but as a more casual player who's just running one detachment anyway it doesn't affect me too much. Maybe we'll see OOML getting some play now.

Sacrosanct go up to 16ppm, which is 1 more PPM than I think they should be.

I personally think the changes to Paragons, Exorcists, and Immolators are completely irrelevant, but do agree that they need more to be viable.

The exact wording of the new rule is unknown but you will at least lose something significant (probably miracle dice for us) in order to take more than 1 Order Conviction (which might be worth it, honestly. I think I get like 4 useful miracle dice per game now with how trash the new codex is compared to the old one). It might be a straight up ban on it. don't know yet. It's game wide but nothing else gets punched with it as hard as SoB does.

I'm just hoping that the BR supplement is decent because if OoML is really our best mono-order list now, that's gonna suck. It's easily the most boring faction to play and the OoML stuff was about as underwhelming as 40k supplements get.

The "no mixing subfactions" thing is to bring everyone else in line with the two new books (Custodes and GSC). Their monofaction bonuses only work if your entire army is from the same subfaction. Doesn't affect me personally; I wasn't mixing Orders anyways. EC is probably dead competitively now though.

Yeah that's probably a disaster for variability most factions are going to drop to 1 or 2. Subfactions and the rest will see zero play.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
The "no mixing subfactions" thing is to bring everyone else in line with the two new books (Custodes and GSC). Their monofaction bonuses only work if your entire army is from the same subfaction. Doesn't affect me personally; I wasn't mixing Orders anyways. EC is probably dead competitively now though.

Honestly, unless the BR supplement is WAY better than it looks like it's going to be, it kinda kills Sisters as competitively. BR will muddle through and the masochists who have been trying to make OoML work might still have a chance but not being able to mix subfactions AND seeing just about every list go up between 35 and 45pts means we drop at least a full tier in terms of competitiveness.

It's just yet another example of GW throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Honestly, it's probably better to just throw out miracle dice. With the nerfs to MD generation from the last codex, I've been averaging maybe 3 instances per game where the dice make any kind of difference at all. I feel like there's way less value there than there is in being able to drop BR repentia into AS lists.

ERJAK wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
The "no mixing subfactions" thing is to bring everyone else in line with the two new books (Custodes and GSC). Their monofaction bonuses only work if your entire army is from the same subfaction. Doesn't affect me personally; I wasn't mixing Orders anyways. EC is probably dead competitively now though.

Honestly, unless the BR supplement is WAY better than it looks like it's going to be, it kinda kills Sisters as competitively. BR will muddle through and the masochists who have been trying to make OoML work might still have a chance but not being able to mix subfactions AND seeing just about every list go up between 35 and 45pts means we drop at least a full tier in terms of competitiveness.

It's just yet another example of GW throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Honestly, it's probably better to just throw out miracle dice. With the nerfs to MD generation from the last codex, I've been averaging maybe 3 instances per game where the dice make any kind of difference at all. I feel like there's way less value there than there is in being able to drop BR repentia into AS lists.

Now that's just hyperbole. Sisters are still going to be okay; the top players will find ways to make them still work. BR are just fine by themselves and don't NEED AS or EC to boost them; personally I think AS works fine by itself (and is super fun to play too!).

Regarding the nerfs, we all knew Morvenn Vahl was undercosted; I'm honestly surprised she didn't get bumped all the way up to 300 points instead of 285. Sacresants were also just a little too spectacular for their points, especially because of the Bodyguard bullgak they could pull with MV and Celestine. I personally think they are just fine even at 16 ppm; it'll be other parts of the list where sacrifices will be made. One thing will change; we won't need the little 2-model units of Crusaders/DCA as "action slave" units because of the changes to secondaries, so that's something we don't have to spend points on anymore. I definitely think 10 ppm is too little of a drop for Paragons, and way too little for the Exorcist and Immolator. And is the Castigator dropping at all?

Regarding Miracle dice, I think we still need them. They've come in very handy for guaranteeing a charge out of reserves for Repentia or Zephyrim in my games, plus it's nice to be able to spike a big damage roll on a melta shot once in a while. Of course, I say this as someone who doesn't generally place very highly in tournaments and who already doesn't mix Orders, so take it with a grain of salt.

A 25% increase in novitiates is terrible especially given they require a tax unit I mean compare the shooty variant with guardsman or better yet the 10 man voidsman unit you can take as an agent of the imperium. 2 pts less same guns same w same T same SV. Oh and no tax and the only gain you make is the keyword and (the extra A on the charge is partially negated by the other unit having +1Ws in terrain. The fight variant might be just about playable (not good) in BR but its massively over costed in any other.

Sacresants is an over nerf their only 1w models I felt they were about balanced. Sure combined up with 300pts worth of support they might be just about useable but not as stand alones really that's a justification for increasing the cost of vahl/celestine not the Sacresants

So I've been trying to think of new ideas to try for Sisters. Mixed orders seems to be dying, so you either have to play mono-Order (which, as I said earlier, is already what I do) and accept that either your shooting or melee will be less efficient, or play mixed Orders and just give up Miracle dice (which is a no-go for me; MD are part of Sisters' identity as a faction and I won't give them up, no sir!). But, I do have some other options that are compromises of a sort:
-Play Argent Shroud, and if you want more melee power, just take different units that don't rely on the Order keyword as much, namely Mortifiers, Penitent Engines, and maybe even Arco-Flagellants (I tried Arcos out and was disappointed though). Heck, even Death Cult Assassins can be mean if they reach combat; 2+ to hit with rerolls is no joke, although they will struggle mightily with higher-Toughness targets. Personally I still think it could be worth it to include Zephyrim or Sacresants in an AS list; Zephys have a lot of attacks even without the extra one from the BR conviction, and Sacresants have the Bodyguard keyword for added value (not sure I would still run the full 10 though unless I was playing BR). Celestine and Vahl are also very strong in melee of course.
-Play Valorous Heart, and go for board control rather than offensive power. With their strat you can still get one Retributor unit able to move and shoot accurately, and they can make one of the tankiest characters in the game when you combine their warlord trait with the Mantle of Ophelia. Their Order Conviction makes your units somewhat more difficult to shift, so lean into that with your list building.
-My most radical idea, but one I've been thinking about more and more recently: play an Order Minoris (custom subfaction). The combo I've been thinking about that gives some benefit to both shooting and melee is Devout Fanaticism and Guided By The Emperor's Will. Devout Fanaticism is the same as Space Marines' Born Heroes (a popular choice for their custom Chapters), and GbtEW gives us the reroll part of Argent Shroud, which helps with shooting but also helps with melee too. Having +1 to hit in melee helps mitigate the lack of the extra attacks from the BR conviction (you are getting less hits per fight phase but not as many less as you might think), and the ability to reroll a hit or wound helps mitigate the moving and shooting penalty on our Retributors. Melee-wise, the only thing I'd truly miss from BR is the Tear Them Down strat, but...eh. Zephyrim still have their +1 to wound since it's not order-locked, and you can still use War Hymn on a Repentia unit to give them a good number of attacks (auto-cast it with Fiery Oratory right after disembarking if you bring a priest along), and +1 to hit on them means they're hitting on a rerollable 3+ instead of a 4+. I'd still bring Morvenn and Celestine along because they're always great (even with Morvenn being more expensive).

 ZergSmasher wrote:
So I've been trying to think of new ideas to try for Sisters. Mixed orders seems to be dying, so you either have to play mono-Order (which, as I said earlier, is already what I do) and accept that either your shooting or melee will be less efficient, or play mixed Orders and just give up Miracle dice (which is a no-go for me; MD are part of Sisters' identity as a faction and I won't give them up, no sir!). But, I do have some other options that are compromises of a sort:
-Play Argent Shroud, and if you want more melee power, just take different units that don't rely on the Order keyword as much, namely Mortifiers, Penitent Engines, and maybe even Arco-Flagellants (I tried Arcos out and was disappointed though). Heck, even Death Cult Assassins can be mean if they reach combat; 2+ to hit with rerolls is no joke, although they will struggle mightily with higher-Toughness targets. Personally I still think it could be worth it to include Zephyrim or Sacresants in an AS list; Zephys have a lot of attacks even without the extra one from the BR conviction, and Sacresants have the Bodyguard keyword for added value (not sure I would still run the full 10 though unless I was playing BR). Celestine and Vahl are also very strong in melee of course.
-Play Valorous Heart, and go for board control rather than offensive power. With their strat you can still get one Retributor unit able to move and shoot accurately, and they can make one of the tankiest characters in the game when you combine their warlord trait with the Mantle of Ophelia. Their Order Conviction makes your units somewhat more difficult to shift, so lean into that with your list building.
-My most radical idea, but one I've been thinking about more and more recently: play an Order Minoris (custom subfaction). The combo I've been thinking about that gives some benefit to both shooting and melee is Devout Fanaticism and Guided By The Emperor's Will. Devout Fanaticism is the same as Space Marines' Born Heroes (a popular choice for their custom Chapters), and GbtEW gives us the reroll part of Argent Shroud, which helps with shooting but also helps with melee too. Having +1 to hit in melee helps mitigate the lack of the extra attacks from the BR conviction (you are getting less hits per fight phase but not as many less as you might think), and the ability to reroll a hit or wound helps mitigate the moving and shooting penalty on our Retributors. Melee-wise, the only thing I'd truly miss from BR is the Tear Them Down strat, but...eh. Zephyrim still have their +1 to wound since it's not order-locked, and you can still use War Hymn on a Repentia unit to give them a good number of attacks (auto-cast it with Fiery Oratory right after disembarking if you bring a priest along), and +1 to hit on them means they're hitting on a rerollable 3+ instead of a 4+. I'd still bring Morvenn and Celestine along because they're always great (even with Morvenn being more expensive).

I've had the same lines of thought but ran into a few problems:

The problem with the AR setup is ideally you'd want mortifiers and pengines because they synergize very well with AR's run and gun playstyle, EXCEPT Pengines, Mortifiers, AND Retributors are all heavy support so you pretty much have to run a Spearhead to bring everything you need. Dropping retributors for any reason in AR is a big no-no. This cuts out the one benefit of not mixing factions, which is the extra 3 CP. Arcos aren't a bad pick either, especially if you're REALLY loading up on melta.

That said, in a normal battalion you do still have room for up to 4 characters and Celestine, Morvenn, and Stern make up a very effective melee contingent,especially if you have at least 5 sacresancts giving them bodyguard.

I personally have never thought Zephyrim were good (despite their representation on top tables, my anecdotal experience is that they hit things, do nothing, and then die) but Sacresancts will always have a place so long as you have at least 1 melee character.

The 2 big flaws with VH are 1. They relied on Sacresancts even more than bloody rose did because of how they synergized with the Conviction, and 2. Battle Sisters are extremely mediocre.

Your last option might have legs, but it also might just end up being a 'worst of both worlds' situation since the GOOD part of argent shroud is the remain stationary and +1 to hit is almost always worse than +1 attack, even ignoring the extra AP.

Played my first game of 9th this weekend. Got wrecked by Custodes. Trajan ate a Canoness and Vahl and I think he only took 2 wounds. I think I did fail about 85% of the 4++'s tho. It was nice to knock the rust off.

Played my first game of 9th this weekend too. 1k points in an escalation league, I was up against Crusher Stampede Nids and, worst of all, I was borked in melee because I brought OOML Repentia, mace Sacresants and a Blessed Blade Canoness, so all of them were suffering mightily from the -1 damage on MCs. I did end up winning because I focused on the objectives and whittled down the Swarmlord and Tyranid Warriors on Turn 2. My Canoness managed to solo a Haruspex too without taking any damage in return, which was incredible (and unlikely). She was armed with Blessed Blade and Martyr's Vengeance (took off 9 wounds with the relic inferno pistol alone, it's no joke when you can sub in Miracle Dice for the damage roll) and had the Word of the Emperor blessing which helped immensely. Poor Sacresants got wiped out by shooting the Swarmlord with their bolt pistols and then he rolled a 6, killing the last 3 with mortal wounds. All-in-all, a very fun and successful first game for my Sororitas though.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Played my first game of 9th this weekend too. 1k points in an escalation league, I was up against Crusher Stampede Nids and, worst of all, I was borked in melee because I brought OOML Repentia, mace Sacresants and a Blessed Blade Canoness, so all of them were suffering mightily from the -1 damage on MCs. I did end up winning because I focused on the objectives and whittled down the Swarmlord and Tyranid Warriors on Turn 2. My Canoness managed to solo a Haruspex too without taking any damage in return, which was incredible (and unlikely). She was armed with Blessed Blade and Martyr's Vengeance (took off 9 wounds with the relic inferno pistol alone, it's no joke when you can sub in Miracle Dice for the damage roll) and had the Word of the Emperor blessing which helped immensely. Poor Sacresants got wiped out by shooting the Swarmlord with their bolt pistols and then he rolled a 6, killing the last 3 with mortal wounds. All-in-all, a very fun and successful first game for my Sororitas though.

Cool that you won but the words 'OOML' and "Repentia" that close together in a sentence like that made me throw up in my mouth a little bit.

Ehh I get that it's not the ideal way to play but I have an OOML army, I love Repentia and at 1k I don't have the points to take multiple detachments.

Honestly, the Repentia were fine in any case, they were 1 of 3 units still on the board at the end.

 deviantduck wrote:
Played my first game of 9th this weekend. Got wrecked by Custodes. Trajan ate a Canoness and Vahl and I think he only took 2 wounds. I think I did fail about 85% of the 4++'s tho. It was nice to knock the rust off.

Trajann is an absolute monster in the just-released Custodes book; I'm honestly not surprised he was able to dumptruck the Canoness. That sounds like tough luck with Vahl, though. I've gotten pretty unlucky with Vahl a time or two myself; she's plenty tanky until she just can't make a damn 4++.

In my most recent outing of 3 games, Celestine went down in each game. In 2 of the 3, she rolled a 1 for getting back up. The first time it happened I was irritated; when it happened again a mere 2 games later I was furious that my luck could be that horrible. But, ultimately sometimes luck can decide games.

Most of the list i play usually run about 6 to 7 immolators.....

Yea. i tend to rip half an armies worth of units with just immolators

with the -pts in the new chapter approved.... i can make an immolator doomstack of bout 8 multi melta immolators in a 2k points list easy.

my highest total i got for melta shots is 56...... seeing if i can tweak the list a bit

FYI, since immolators are dedicated transport, rule of 3 doesn't apply to them

mchammadad wrote:
Most of the list i play usually run about 6 to 7 immolators.....

Yea. i tend to rip half an armies worth of units with just immolators

with the -pts in the new chapter approved.... i can make an immolator doomstack of bout 8 multi melta immolators in a 2k points list easy.

my highest total i got for melta shots is 56...... seeing if i can tweak the list a bit

FYI, since immolators are dedicated transport, rule of 3 doesn't apply to them

I assume Argent Shroud for the shooting benefits, yes? Or Valorous Heart to reduce AP1/2? I definitely admit that with the points drop, they are looking slightly better, especially if you are running a lot of them as you seem to be.

Honestly my wallet cringes at the thought of buying all those Immolators though.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Played my first game of 9th this weekend. Got wrecked by Custodes. Trajan ate a Canoness and Vahl and I think he only took 2 wounds. I think I did fail about 85% of the 4++'s tho. It was nice to knock the rust off.

Trajann is an absolute monster in the just-released Custodes book; I'm honestly not surprised he was able to dumptruck the Canoness. That sounds like tough luck with Vahl, though. I've gotten pretty unlucky with Vahl a time or two myself; she's plenty tanky until she just can't make a damn 4++.

In my most recent outing of 3 games, Celestine went down in each game. In 2 of the 3, she rolled a 1 for getting back up. The first time it happened I was irritated; when it happened again a mere 2 games later I was furious that my luck could be that horrible. But, ultimately sometimes luck can decide games.

He kept popping transhuman and the turning off rerolls strat. Only 50% chance to hit with no rerolls really stings. His first round of attacks against MV I failed 4 of 5 4++.
I also fired 14 melta shots that game for a total of 3 wounds.

mchammadad wrote:
Most of the list i play usually run about 6 to 7 immolators.....

Yea. i tend to rip half an armies worth of units with just immolators

with the -pts in the new chapter approved.... i can make an immolator doomstack of bout 8 multi melta immolators in a 2k points list easy.

my highest total i got for melta shots is 56...... seeing if i can tweak the list a bit

FYI, since immolators are dedicated transport, rule of 3 doesn't apply to them

The problem with Immolators is that they're really bad unless your opponent is ALSO bringing a mech heavy list.

Immo spam has a strong matchup into armies like Ork buggy spam and Ironhands (and I bet would see quite a bit of success vs crusher stampede depending on the build) but gets absolutely dumped on by things like Dark Eldar and Black Templar and loses the mirror match hard.

They've seen some success as a dedicated counter-meta pick as a result but blind going into a big tournament with immospam is a dangerous prospect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deviantduck wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Played my first game of 9th this weekend. Got wrecked by Custodes. Trajan ate a Canoness and Vahl and I think he only took 2 wounds. I think I did fail about 85% of the 4++'s tho. It was nice to knock the rust off.

Trajann is an absolute monster in the just-released Custodes book; I'm honestly not surprised he was able to dumptruck the Canoness. That sounds like tough luck with Vahl, though. I've gotten pretty unlucky with Vahl a time or two myself; she's plenty tanky until she just can't make a damn 4++.

In my most recent outing of 3 games, Celestine went down in each game. In 2 of the 3, she rolled a 1 for getting back up. The first time it happened I was irritated; when it happened again a mere 2 games later I was furious that my luck could be that horrible. But, ultimately sometimes luck can decide games.

He kept popping transhuman and the turning off rerolls strat. Only 50% chance to hit with no rerolls really stings. His first round of attacks against MV I failed 4 of 5 4++.
I also fired 14 melta shots that game for a total of 3 wounds.

You mean wounding, right? Because I don't see anything on Trajann's Datasheet that would give him -2 to hit.

Yes, wounding. My bad.

Going over the points changes and the subfaction changes again...the future looks bleak.

Monofaction lists tended to rely HEAVILY on the 3 units that took the hardest nerfs.

AS, VH, and BR relied heavily on Vahl.

OoML, BR, and VH relied heavily on sacresancts.

Every Sister's list relied heavily on Armorium Cherubs.

With all the changes, a typical Mono-BR list went up 65-75pts a typical mono VH list went up 95, a typical mono-AS list went up 55pts and a typical Mono-OoML list went up between 30-50pts.

We receive nothing in compensation for either the subfaction change or the point hikes.

So, in reality our best hope between now and the next CA is the BR supplement.

What we've seen so far from the BR supplement is 1 Warlord Trait, 1 Relic, and 2 stratagems.

They've said we're getting an Army of Renown, so that just leaves (based on the OoML supplement) 2 Warlord Traits, 3 Relics, and 6 stratagems.

The things they've shown off so far are largely useless. The shoot on death strat is mediocre because it's 2CP for rets but it's not nothing so whatever. The relic is awful, the warlord trait is worse, the Paragon strat requires you bring paragons.

The Relics and Warlord Traits BR already have access to are good enough that they'd REALLY have to push the supplement stuff enough to make them worthwhile picks. Let alone a significant advantage to the army. We absolutely do not need more 'Jump through 8 hoops and do a standing backflip with concrete shoes to get 1 miracle die' crap so hopefully what we've seen is the last of that. IF there is something that lets us wound our OWN units to gain some sort of a buff, that miracle dice relic will be very interesting. If not it remains useless.

So it's very doubtful that we'll see much in the way of a boost from WT or Relics. So looking to stratagems, what could we see there?

Well, looking at the OoML supplement we see:
A stratagem that gives a mediocre buff against one specific army. Not gonna cut it.
A stratagem that gives a really stupid bonus in a really convoluted way and kills off our own models. Bad.
A stratagem that makes you jump through hoops to get a bonus you can't really benefit from. The equivalent for BR would be 'one additional AP on bolter weapons if you shoot at a target that was shot at by 6 or more units in the same shooting phase.' Bad.
The strat we've already seen for Paragons (that is terrible compared to the OoML one.)
A strat for the useless tanks no one cares about.
An extremely situational strat everyone will look at as the reason to use the supplement but that will underwhelm.
The strat we've already seen, which is a bad clone of the OoML one.
And a strat that lets us take a second bad warlord trait.

So the strats probably aren't going to offer much for us either. Our best hope is that the Army of Renown is closer to the Crusher Stampede than the mechanicus defense force.

I think you missed the mission changes that prevent are 2 man units scoring secondary's making that even worse

U02dah4 wrote:
I think you missed the mission changes that prevent are 2 man units scoring secondary's making that even worse

Isn't it more that it makes it so that they can't reliably pull of Octarius Data? They can still do other secondaries.

It makes it so they almost always fail at octarious data 1/6 chance of success

They also can't do engage on all fronts unless you atleast buy an extra model which doubles there power level and makes them more costly to reserve

Yes they can score the ones you don't take

Unless my opponent has an obvious kill mission those two are current auto includes. They are still doable but a shift from 2 man to 6 comes with a significant loss in efficiency

U02dah4 wrote:
I think you missed the mission changes that prevent are 2 man units scoring secondary's making that even worse

I never did that, so it wasn't something I thought about tbh.

Well thank goodness I'm back in the saddle just in time for sisters to be mediocre again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also looks like the Battle Sanctum is able to be played now, but I just read the 9th rules for it, and it doesn't seem worthwhile. I guess if you park it on an objective a squad of BSS can hold one to generate a MD without wasting units.

So that's worth it?

 deviantduck wrote:
Well thank goodness I'm back in the saddle just in time for sisters to be mediocre again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also looks like the Battle Sanctum is able to be played now, but I just read the 9th rules for it, and it doesn't seem worthwhile. I guess if you park it on an objective a squad of BSS can hold one to generate a MD without wasting units.

So that's worth it?

You actually can't put it on TOP of an objective. Also, because of the way obscuring works, it's actually better to have it a little ways in front of an objective so your squad can cap the objective while being BEHIND its footprint.

Also, the balance slate coming in February and the Bloody Rose supplement might, MIGHT, MAYBE have some compensation for us in this regard.

ERJAK wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Well thank goodness I'm back in the saddle just in time for sisters to be mediocre again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also looks like the Battle Sanctum is able to be played now, but I just read the 9th rules for it, and it doesn't seem worthwhile. I guess if you park it on an objective a squad of BSS can hold one to generate a MD without wasting units.

So that's worth it?

You actually can't put it on TOP of an objective. Also, because of the way obscuring works, it's actually better to have it a little ways in front of an objective so your squad can cap the objective while being BEHIND its footprint.

Also, the balance slate coming in February and the Bloody Rose supplement might, MIGHT, MAYBE have some compensation for us in this regard.

I thought you just couldn't cover the objective entirely? Put the left wall across the objective, for instance.

 deviantduck wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Well thank goodness I'm back in the saddle just in time for sisters to be mediocre again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also looks like the Battle Sanctum is able to be played now, but I just read the 9th rules for it, and it doesn't seem worthwhile. I guess if you park it on an objective a squad of BSS can hold one to generate a MD without wasting units.

So that's worth it?

You actually can't put it on TOP of an objective. Also, because of the way obscuring works, it's actually better to have it a little ways in front of an objective so your squad can cap the objective while being BEHIND its footprint.

Also, the balance slate coming in February and the Bloody Rose supplement might, MIGHT, MAYBE have some compensation for us in this regard.

I thought you just couldn't cover the objective entirely? Put the left wall across the objective, for instance.

I actually can't find the rule at the moment, last I knew the footprint of the model couldn't touch the objective at all. Could be wrong though.

ERJAK wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Well thank goodness I'm back in the saddle just in time for sisters to be mediocre again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also looks like the Battle Sanctum is able to be played now, but I just read the 9th rules for it, and it doesn't seem worthwhile. I guess if you park it on an objective a squad of BSS can hold one to generate a MD without wasting units.

So that's worth it?

You actually can't put it on TOP of an objective. Also, because of the way obscuring works, it's actually better to have it a little ways in front of an objective so your squad can cap the objective while being BEHIND its footprint.

Also, the balance slate coming in February and the Bloody Rose supplement might, MIGHT, MAYBE have some compensation for us in this regard.

I thought you just couldn't cover the objective entirely? Put the left wall across the objective, for instance.

I actually can't find the rule at the moment, last I knew the footprint of the model couldn't touch the objective at all. Could be wrong though.

I keep confusing the objectives with the giant mats everyone uses. The 40mm center can't be in the terrain or the footprint, but the 3" radius near it can. so you can sit in footprint of the terrain and cap it.

 deviantduck wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
Well thank goodness I'm back in the saddle just in time for sisters to be mediocre again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It also looks like the Battle Sanctum is able to be played now, but I just read the 9th rules for it, and it doesn't seem worthwhile. I guess if you park it on an objective a squad of BSS can hold one to generate a MD without wasting units.

So that's worth it?

You actually can't put it on TOP of an objective. Also, because of the way obscuring works, it's actually better to have it a little ways in front of an objective so your squad can cap the objective while being BEHIND its footprint.

Also, the balance slate coming in February and the Bloody Rose supplement might, MIGHT, MAYBE have some compensation for us in this regard.

I thought you just couldn't cover the objective entirely? Put the left wall across the objective, for instance.

I actually can't find the rule at the moment, last I knew the footprint of the model couldn't touch the objective at all. Could be wrong though.

I keep confusing the objectives with the giant mats everyone uses. The 40mm center can't be in the terrain or the footprint, but the 3" radius near it can. so you can sit in footprint of the terrain and cap it.

Exactly! Just looking at the battle sanctum I tried putting it on a table so that the objective was just outside the 'front' of the cathedral part, which ended up being a mistake. Because you lose obscuring being inside it, it's actually better to put it in front of the objective so you can cap it WITHOUT standing inside the footprint. You lose cover but you're ACTUALLY outside of LoS then.

In my vast experience with 9th, all 1.5 games, I find that part so weird. You're safer hiding behind and outside of ruins (and the imaginary footprint) than standing in ruins...assuming you don't want/care to shoot back.

Even more nerfs that weren't previously mention Dominions also go up 2ppm for NO fething REASON.

ERJAK wrote:
Even more nerfs that weren't previously mention Dominions also go up 2ppm for NO fething REASON.

Yay. So... leave Morvenn on the sprue and start on some GSC instead?

 deviantduck wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Even more nerfs that weren't previously mention Dominions also go up 2ppm for NO fething REASON.

Yay. So... leave Morvenn on the sprue and start on some GSC instead?

As of right now, with Drukhari seeing no significant changes, Custodes seeing release day buffs, GSC coming out strong and Crusher Stampede getting a slap on the wrist Sisters(as well as several other Low Tier 1, high tier 2 armies, we're absolutely not the only ones who got hit here. We just got hit the HARDEST.) have been smacked down at least a full tier in effectiveness. Every single competitive build just went up 100+pts, even if they didn't soup and currently we have nothing to pivot to.

The Bloody Rose Supplement looks, so far, like it will be the same level of boon as the OoML one was. Which is to say, very little. If the things they haven't shown are much stronger than the strats/relics we've seen, it could be possible to regain some of that lost ground for BR players. The wildcard is the Army of Renown. Crusher Stampede made Tyranids instantly tier 1, but none of the other AoRs have had any competitive impact.

The other thing that could potentially really help is the February balance patch. If they redo the rules for Castigators, Exorcists, and Paragons, that PLUS the point drops might give us something we can pivot to. If Exorcists got to the point where the datasheet didn't essentially read "pay 170pts, lose 8CP" or if the Castigator got a gun that did damage, that would be enough to take the burden of all of our shooting off of Retributors AND give Bloody rose lists a reasonable method of doing damage from afar.

Looking at the changes I feel slightly more inclined towards a brigade. Now I don't need a subfaction. It would save a couple of CP

Dominions going up a couple points doesn't make sense to me, if they needed toning down then Blessed Bolts is the issue, not Dominions. There's no reason for them to be 5pts more than a Battle Sister for the same profile, a scout move and more access to special weapons. This change was nonsense IMHO.

No mixed subfactions is gonna suck on the competitive end but IMHO it's better for the game as a whole if you can't just plug your subfaction's weaknesses with another subfaction. And those who aren't playing top-tier competitive lists probably won't even notice.

ERJAK wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Even more nerfs that weren't previously mention Dominions also go up 2ppm for NO fething REASON.

Yay. So... leave Morvenn on the sprue and start on some GSC instead?

As of right now, with Drukhari seeing no significant changes, Custodes seeing release day buffs, GSC coming out strong and Crusher Stampede getting a slap on the wrist Sisters(as well as several other Low Tier 1, high tier 2 armies, we're absolutely not the only ones who got hit here. We just got hit the HARDEST.) have been smacked down at least a full tier in effectiveness. Every single competitive build just went up 100+pts, even if they didn't soup and currently we have nothing to pivot to.

The Bloody Rose Supplement looks, so far, like it will be the same level of boon as the OoML one was. Which is to say, very little. If the things they haven't shown are much stronger than the strats/relics we've seen, it could be possible to regain some of that lost ground for BR players. The wildcard is the Army of Renown. Crusher Stampede made Tyranids instantly tier 1, but none of the other AoRs have had any competitive impact.

The other thing that could potentially really help is the February balance patch. If they redo the rules for Castigators, Exorcists, and Paragons, that PLUS the point drops might give us something we can pivot to. If Exorcists got to the point where the datasheet didn't essentially read "pay 170pts, lose 8CP" or if the Castigator got a gun that did damage, that would be enough to take the burden of all of our shooting off of Retributors AND give Bloody rose lists a reasonable method of doing damage from afar.

Not looking food for an army of renown. It's starting to look like we've already seen the meat of it.

That is an extremely odd page layout.

First off,I love how it's a 'codex supplement' that's 3 pages long.

Second of all...an entire page devoted to just relics?

Also, by the look of it, the army of renown is Crusade only. Which would be on brand for GW'S treatment of Sisters lately.

Wait...it jumps from 78 to...83? Either we're getting 20+ stratagems or these dumb motherfethers seriously used FOUR FULL PAGES of this stupid thing for goddam army photos. IN THE RULES SECTION.

I don't think I'm buying a GW book ever again after this.

Time to sail the high seas, eh?

 deviantduck wrote:
Time to sail the high seas, eh?

Yarr Matey. Considering it's THREE PAGES, shouldn't be too hard.

Cue We're the Millers meme, "You guys still pay for GW books...?"

mchammadad wrote:
Most of the list i play usually run about 6 to 7 immolators.....

Yea. i tend to rip half an armies worth of units with just immolators

with the -pts in the new chapter approved.... i can make an immolator doomstack of bout 8 multi melta immolators in a 2k points list easy.

my highest total i got for melta shots is 56...... seeing if i can tweak the list a bit

FYI, since immolators are dedicated transport, rule of 3 doesn't apply to them

Do you mind sharing your immo spam list? I'm sitting on a ton of old 4ed immolators and was thinking of using them as a cheaper way to get back into the game.

Thanks!

 MrFlutterPie wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
Most of the list i play usually run about 6 to 7 immolators.....

Yea. i tend to rip half an armies worth of units with just immolators

with the -pts in the new chapter approved.... i can make an immolator doomstack of bout 8 multi melta immolators in a 2k points list easy.

my highest total i got for melta shots is 56...... seeing if i can tweak the list a bit

FYI, since immolators are dedicated transport, rule of 3 doesn't apply to them

Do you mind sharing your immo spam list? I'm sitting on a ton of old 4ed immolators and was thinking of using them as a cheaper way to get back into the game.

Thanks!

Immospam lists basically write themselves thanks to how many points they use.

Example list:

Canoness Blessed Blade, IP, Warlord Righteous Rage, Relic Mantle
Palantinex2
2x MM BSS
1x HF BSS
3xStormbolter Dominions
2x4 MM Rets with double Cherub.
1x4 HF Rets with Combi Melta and Double Cherub
1x5 Repentia
6x MM Immolators
2kish Points

A keen eyed observer will notice that around 1750pts of that list is generally considered "Locked in". Even if you only went 2MM on the Rets, that still leaves you around 1600pts with 0 replaceable parts.

Can I confirm that novitiates didn't change pts?

U02dah4 wrote:
Can I confirm that novitiates didn't change pts?

oh yea, what happened with that? weren't they rumored to jump up?

 deviantduck wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Can I confirm that novitiates didn't change pts?

oh yea, what happened with that? weren't they rumored to jump up?

They were, they did not.

Since I have 3 units I am happy


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First attempt at a post CA list

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/803205.page#11296948

Hi guys. Sorry to brother you with a list. Of it’s not ok to post Ill erase it

I just need a little bit of feedback as I haven’t played sisters in months.

Is something like this in any way viable I todays sisters meta?

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) [99 PL, 1,992pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost

Order Convictions: Order: Argent Shroud

+ HQ +

Canoness [5 PL, 110pts]: Blessed Blade, Plasma pistol, Relic: Iron Surplice of Saint Istaela, Rod of Office, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 2. Righteous Rage
. Word of the Emperor

Celestine and Geminae Superia [10 PL, 200pts]
. 2x Geminae Superia: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Power sword

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad [9 PL, 146pts]: Incensor Cherub
. 7x Battle Sister: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Ministorum Flamer
. Sister Superior: Chainsword
. . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad [9 PL, 161pts]: Incensor Cherub
. 7x Battle Sister: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sister Superior
. . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad [3 PL, 75pts]
. 3x Battle Sister: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Sister Superior
. . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun

+ Elites +

Celestian Sacresants [3 PL, 75pts]
. 4x Celestian Sacresant (Anointed Halberd): 4x Anointed Halberd, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Sacresant Superior: Bolt pistol, Spear of the Faithful

Paragon Warsuits [13 PL, 250pts]
. Paragon: 2 Storm Bolters, Ministorum Heavy Flamer, Paragon War Mace
. Paragon: Heavy bolter, Paragon Grenade Launchers, Paragon War Mace
. Paragon Superior: Multi-melta, Paragon Grenade Launchers, Paragon War Mace

+ Fast Attack +

Dominion Squad [4 PL, 80pts]
. Dominion Superior: Chainsword
. . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter

Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 95pts]
. 2x Seraphim: 4x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades
. Seraphim Superior: Chainsword, Plasma pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Ministorum Hand Flamers
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Ministorum Hand Flamers

+ Heavy Support +

Exorcist [9 PL, 180pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher

Penitent Engines [6 PL, 110pts]
. Penitent Engine: 2x Penitent Flails
. Penitent Engine: 2x Penitent Flails

Retributor Squad [6 PL, 150pts]: 2x Armourium Cherub
. Retributor Superior
. . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta

+ Dedicated Transport +

Immolator [7 PL, 130pts]: Immolation flamers

Immolator [7 PL, 150pts]: Twin multi-melta

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

++ Total: [99 PL, 1,992pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Depends how competitive your meta is, but this looks like a decent enough list in a less-competitive setting. Paragons are meh for the points and you can probably afford to drop the Incensor Cherubs and Simulacrum Imperialis on the Battle Sister squads, but it's not like your list is straight-up bad. I'd honestly consider swapping one, or both, of the Immolators for a Rhino and then put the points saved there + the points from the BSS equipment into a Dogmata, another Seraphim squad, or more Sacresants. 5 Sacresants are great for the points, but die very quickly to volume of fire.

Good evening lads, I was wondering : am I allowed to take a relic on the Germinae Superia knowing that the rule state that " A GEMINAE SUPERIA counts as a named character for all rules purposes".

Futhermore, I don't quite understand if Celestine is taking my first free relic slot with her weapon or whatever she carries in her datasheet. Can I take my free relic despite having Celestine or must I pay for any relic I would like to bring?

Thanks you for your help, as always !

 ierp wrote:
Good evening lads, I was wondering : am I allowed to take a relic on the Germinae Superia knowing that the rule state that " A GEMINAE SUPERIA counts as a named character for all rules purposes".

Futhermore, I don't quite understand if Celestine is taking my first free relic slot with her weapon or whatever she carries in her datasheet. Can I take my free relic despite having Celestine or must I pay for any relic I would like to bring?

Thanks you for your help, as always !

Celestine and the twins are named characters. Named characters can't take relics.

Celestine's blade isn't a relic. It's just built in wargear on the unit.

Ok, thanks you verry much. I wasn't sure for the germinae knowing the fact they were elite slot back in 8th codex.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Spoiler:

Scoundrel80 wrote:
Hi guys. Sorry to brother you with a list. Of it’s not ok to post Ill erase it

I just need a little bit of feedback as I haven’t played sisters in months.

Is something like this in any way viable I todays sisters meta?

++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) [99 PL, 1,992pts] ++

+ Configuration +

Detachment Command Cost

Order Convictions: Order: Argent Shroud

+ HQ +

Canoness [5 PL, 110pts]: Blessed Blade, Plasma pistol, Relic: Iron Surplice of Saint Istaela, Rod of Office, Warlord, Warlord Trait: 2. Righteous Rage
. Word of the Emperor

Celestine and Geminae Superia [10 PL, 200pts]
. 2x Geminae Superia: 2x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Power sword

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad [9 PL, 146pts]: Incensor Cherub
. 7x Battle Sister: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Ministorum Flamer
. Sister Superior: Chainsword
. . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad [9 PL, 161pts]: Incensor Cherub
. 7x Battle Sister: 7x Bolt pistol, 7x Boltgun, 7x Frag & Krak grenades
. Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sister Superior
. . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad [3 PL, 75pts]
. 3x Battle Sister: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Sister Superior
. . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun

+ Elites +

Celestian Sacresants [3 PL, 75pts]
. 4x Celestian Sacresant (Anointed Halberd): 4x Anointed Halberd, 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
. Sacresant Superior: Bolt pistol, Spear of the Faithful

Paragon Warsuits [13 PL, 250pts]
. Paragon: 2 Storm Bolters, Ministorum Heavy Flamer, Paragon War Mace
. Paragon: Heavy bolter, Paragon Grenade Launchers, Paragon War Mace
. Paragon Superior: Multi-melta, Paragon Grenade Launchers, Paragon War Mace

+ Fast Attack +

Dominion Squad [4 PL, 80pts]
. Dominion Superior: Chainsword
. . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter
. Dominion w/ Special Weapon: Artificer-crafted storm bolter

Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 95pts]
. 2x Seraphim: 4x Bolt pistol, 2x Frag & Krak grenades
. Seraphim Superior: Chainsword, Plasma pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Ministorum Hand Flamers
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Ministorum Hand Flamers

+ Heavy Support +

Exorcist [9 PL, 180pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher

Penitent Engines [6 PL, 110pts]
. Penitent Engine: 2x Penitent Flails
. Penitent Engine: 2x Penitent Flails

Retributor Squad [6 PL, 150pts]: 2x Armourium Cherub
. Retributor Superior
. . Bolt Pistol & Boltgun
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta
. Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Multi-melta

+ Dedicated Transport +

Immolator [7 PL, 130pts]: Immolation flamers

Immolator [7 PL, 150pts]: Twin multi-melta

Sororitas Rhino [4 PL, 80pts]

++ Total: [99 PL, 1,992pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Depends how competitive your meta is, but this looks like a decent enough list in a less-competitive setting. Paragons are meh for the points and you can probably afford to drop the Incensor Cherubs and Simulacrum Imperialis on the Battle Sister squads, but it's not like your list is straight-up bad. I'd honestly consider swapping one, or both, of the Immolators for a Rhino and then put the points saved there + the points from the BSS equipment into a Dogmata, another Seraphim squad, or more Sacresants. 5 Sacresants are great for the points, but die very quickly to volume of fire.

Also, if you DO bring paragons, bring 3 multimeltas. I can see you're trying for Holy trinity, but mathematically Holy Trinity already isn't a particularly good stratagem. On Paragons it's full on garbage tier.

Thanks a ton, guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thing is I’m pretty sure I’ll be facing 3x plague burst crawler and I simply can’t figure out how to approach that whith these gals. I feel retributors crumble to that.

Well I would put the rets into reserve that way they come on the board edge and get atleast one round of shooting off

I think it's very difficult to know exactly what a competative army looks like for the sisters at the moment their have been too many changes to points/removal of 2nd subfactions/mission structures

I am not sure argent shroud is the best way to go.

I suspect you will get themed lists

BR lists focussing heavily on melee units but with very limited shooting i imagine will win big or lose heavily in a charge at the enemy

VH lists will focus on numbers and board control and surviving with a little more shooting support these gals are focusing the mission they won't score as highly but won't lose so hard.

OOML I think could do very well but they suffer from not being as combat buffy or survivable but they have some nice tricks and now we can take a fortification again a leap of faith is an auto 12vp so very strong on mission. Downside is not as survivable as VH or as killy as BR

AS every bit of them apart from the subfaction trait is weak (the strat is useful occasionally but many games it does nothing). The subfaction trait is strong especially when it comes to shooting but we are not a shooty army compared to other factions and if you try to out shoot a shooty army it wont go well. This made it a nice include as a second detatchment but its melee buffs are not a patch on BR and it can't play the missions like VH and OOML

bloody rose supplement is trash. You literally can't use Celestine or even a hospitaller.

GW are the dumbest people on the planet.

Thats wrong you can

In order to have a bloody rose detatchment for the purpose of the supplement your models must be Cult imperialis BR agent of the imperium or unaligned

But... you are not restricted to 1 detatchment you could have BR detatchment without non BR sanctified units and a second detatchment with the BR keyword legal under the new chapter approved rules without the benefits or restrictions

Warlord traits are only giveable to your actual warlord fiery example is the best +1 to w and 2 miracle dice on a kill but not great. Relics require a bloody rose warlord to access so that would exclude vahl but not celestine in a second detatchment and celestine is probably more fitting with BR. However they are weak so I would be unlikely to use them.

That brings it to the stratsgems these are opened up by your army including an order the bloody rose detatchment not the army being wholy order of the bloody rose detatchment

+1 to charge on repentia can be clutch

RR1 to unit of multimeltas if they target a unit 6" of board edge is nice your probably takeing 1

+1to Wound and +2 ap to a beneficence character is damn nice

Pre game moving a transport is OP

Then you get a good close range defensive buff and a damage buff Savage twist is damn nice on novitiates


In conclusion kudos GW for writing a rule that means that only a portion of detatchments with order of the bloody rose keyword are order of the bloody rose detatchments. Order of the bloody rose detatchments are distinct from an adepta sororitas detatchment with the order of the bloody rose conviction this will create no confusion.

The WL and relics are rather weak but there's some nice strats

WL and relics are keyed to your warlord not having a order of the bloody rose detatchment so it's a few extra options with no changes with no vahl

If you pay the CP for a second detatchment you can include what you want but you'll lose the relics and wl options if you don't have a BR Warlord - looking at vahl - and you gain strats

Or you can not pay the CP and lose access to a few options. And gain everything

The supplement isn't broken but it shouldn't be BR was one of our strongest subfactions to begin with but certainly its a nice power boost

U02dah4 wrote:
Thats wrong you can

In order to have a bloody rose detatchment for the purpose of the supplement your models must be Cult imperialis BR agent of the imperium or unaligned

But... you are not restricted to 1 detatchment you could have BR detatchment without non BR sanctified units and a second detatchment with the BR keyword legal under the new chapter approved rules without the benefits or restrictions

Warlord traits are only giveable to your actual warlord fiery example is the best +1 to w and 2 miracle dice on a kill but not great. Relics require a bloody rose warlord to access so that would exclude vahl but not celestine in a second detatchment and celestine is probably more fitting with BR. However they are weak so I would be unlikely to use them.

That brings it to the stratsgems these are opened up by your army including an order the bloody rose detatchment not the army being wholy order of the bloody rose detatchment

+1 to charge on repentia can be clutch

RR1 to unit of multimeltas if they target a unit 6" of board edge is nice your probably takeing 1

+1to Wound and +2 ap to a beneficence character is damn nice

Pre game moving a transport is OP

Then you get a good close range defensive buff and a damage buff Savage twist is damn nice on novitiates


In conclusion kudos GW for writing a rule that means that only a portion of detatchments with order of the bloody rose keyword are order of the bloody rose detatchments. Order of the bloody rose detatchments are distinct from an adepta sororitas detatchment with the order of the bloody rose conviction this will create no confusion.

The WL and relics are rather weak but there's some nice strats

WL and relics are keyed to your warlord not having a order of the bloody rose detatchment so it's a few extra options with no changes with no vahl

If you pay the CP for a second detatchment you can include what you want but you'll lose the relics and wl options if you don't have a BR Warlord - looking at vahl - and you gain strats

Or you can not pay the CP and lose access to a few options. And gain everything

The supplement isn't broken but it shouldn't be BR was one of our strongest subfactions to begin with but certainly its a nice power boost

There's ZERO reason to take a second non-supreme commander detachment, other than unlocking the supplement rules. No one is going to spend 2CP for the privilege of unlocking this...dreck.

Also, the rest of that doesn't make any sense. The OoML supplement already exists! And that allows Sanctified units! There wasn't any confusion about an OoML detachment, why would there be about a Bloody Rose detachment?

It helps though, that the supplement is actually terrible. The benefits included in the detachment are literally weaker than just being able to include Celestine. The difference between Celestine and the next best thing you could spend 200pts on is MORE than the value of the entire supplement.

The warlord traits are unbelievably terrible. ANYTHING that requires your opponent to behave in a certain way is bad and all of these require your opponent to behave in a certain way. Incandescent reprisal is the only one worth looking at and that's ENTIRELY because of the 5++ wound shrug. Righteous Rage and the Stock Bloody Rose trait are both MILES better than any of these.

The relic sword saves you 5 points on a blessed blade. That's it. It's not particularly better than the Blade of Saint Ellynor (D3 vs MW on 6s) but it's cheaper and combos with Rapturous blows so...sure. The rest of the relics are complete garbage.

+1 to charge on Repentia...within 6" of a Repentia Superior...for 2CP if you have so much as 6 repentia models. Always just use a CP reroll. It's FAR more likely to net a positive result, is 1 CP cheaper on Repentia units of 6 or more AND doesn't require a repentia superior. The fact that they even printed such a garbage strat is insulting.

Why are you wasting Retributor shots on something within 6" of a NON-PLAYER board edge? That's no man's land. There's no objectives over there. The only thing that this will ever target is outflankers and if your opponent outflanks within 24" of your retributors and doesn't kill your retributors...that was a free game anyway.

Using outrage of the Matriarch's on a beneficence Canoness is the most anti-synergy thing I've ever heard. The strat only works on models that have 6+ wounds. Beneficence only gives you the extra attacks against units that have 6+ models. Also, the +2 AP is only on wound rolls of 6. A regular Blessed Blade does more damage. Also, the strat is just straight up dead against anything but vehicles or mounted units in most armies.

Pregame moving a transport is good. IF YOU GO FIRST. Since none of our vehicle+unit combos are resilient enough for plopping down on a first turn objective to be anything but suicidal, it has very limited utility going second. So you're gambling a Rhino full of Repentia on winning the go first die roll.

-1 to hit within 6" means nothing. Anything you'd be in melee with is likely already hitting on 2s or pumping out so many attacks it doesn't matter what they're hitting on. Anything that gets that close to bloody rose before shooting is just going to kill you in melee anyway. The only thing that might survive with this strat is Sacresancts and they took MASSIVE hits in the last CA. Combine that with having no meaningful character bodyguard and it's a big feels bad man.

Savage Twist is just a worse Tear Them Down. Also, bloody rose was already killing things just fine. They didn't need to waste ANOTHER strat on that.

The ONLY things in this entire supplement that's worthy of competitive consideration are the Shoot when you die strat and the pregame move strat.


I personally won't be using it at all, even when I play mono-bloody rose. It's not worth 2CP to grab a bloody rose patrol to unlock these stratagems, even in lists where I don't also need to add extra units.

I respectfully disagree the wl and relic you get regardless of whats in your detatchment. The stratagems arnt worthless some are pretty nice having the choice between paying 2cp or restricting your list arnt terrible options.

I wouldn't have taken vahl in a BR list and can't normally find a space for a hospitalier and a list can certainly be built without celestine

The question is are the strats worth it

Often repentia have a reroll to charge especially near a superior but a 7" reroll is a lot more successful I'm not saying its perfect but I have easily lost games due to a maxed out repentia failing its charge and this lets you reroll one while makeing it more likely while you miracle a second

Quite often I can think of lots of games where an opponent's aircraft have ended up 6" from a board edge. Sure you won't use the strat all the tome but it's a nice option will have and it would see use

Maybe I overestimated the character buff strat but again it's a strat and I'm not saying its broken in all situations against all targets but it's nice to have as an option.

I will probably try BR and OOML I really need to test them but I think there is enough their to be a valid choice not a mandatory or broken one and that is a very tough line for a supplement to walk when it is one or our strongest subfactions. If your not takeing celestine/vahl it's an improvement if you are I think 2cp is a pretty close call for those options

Guys, before you get your panties in a twist, I expect GW will put out a FAQ fixing some of the issues like including Sanctified characters and such, to make it more in line with the OoML supplement. If they don't, I'll be absolutely shocked. Of course, maybe the goal is to wean us away from part one of every Sisters list design being "just take Morvenn Vahl". Still, if the way it currently reads is indeed a feature rather than a bug, the whole supplement is dead in the water competitively; Vahl is just too good to give up even with her points increase.

Regarding the relics, I like Mina's Wrath. It gives an alternative to my previous "Murderess" build (which is Blessed Blade, Blazing Ire, Rapturous Blows) and makes a decent character killer when combined with Fiery Example. Of course, as I said just above it's not worth leaving out Vahl for it. Seriously hoping they FAQ it so that you can get the new traits with Saint in the Making rather than only your actual Warlord, but unless the OoML ones are already that way, it won't happen. The other two relics are skippable for sure; nobody's gonna bring an Imagifier just for their new relic, and

I definitely like some of the strats. Pregame moving a transport full of nasties is HILARIOUS, and the fact that it only costs 1CP to do it with Sacresants is awesome. Probably worth 2CP to do it with Repentia and combos well with their +1 to charge strat; not so much for Retributors though, so just let them ride with the Dominions instead. The flank-clearing one is cool on Retributors, but it also isn't bad on Paragons or, dare I say it, our tanks. No, it likely doesn't make the tanks worth it, but it does help them get just a bit more value so...eh. Wade Into the Foe is great if you already are planning on taking Paragons as it makes them somewhat meaner vs. hordes of gribblies, but you still aren't going to clear out a full unit of Necron Warriors in a single fight phase or anything. Nice to have something to buff Paragons though, as I'm still fishing for a reason to bring them.

Overall, final verdict will need to wait for the inevitable FAQ for this book.

So when I look at contrasting list these are the two that spring to mind for me

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/803303.page

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/803205.page

The OOML is focused around scoring an auto 12 for leap of faith, retrieve nachmund data and engage on all fronts (barring kill missions or mission specific missions)

The BR list is much more in your opponent's face and will focus on engage on all fronts retrieve nachmund data and sacred grounds

or defend the shrine engage on all fronts and a mission specific/kill mission

I think the ooml list better mission wise but the BR has a much higher damage output - I would need to field test them

I think our strategy of taking Sacresants, Morvenn, and Celestine for To The Last is still viable (unless that secondary is gone and I don't know about it?), despite the points cost increases. Bodyguard shenanigans are strong.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Guys, before you get your panties in a twist, I expect GW will put out a FAQ fixing some of the issues like including Sanctified characters and such, to make it more in line with the OoML supplement. If they don't, I'll be absolutely shocked. Of course, maybe the goal is to wean us away from part one of every Sisters list design being "just take Morvenn Vahl". Still, if the way it currently reads is indeed a feature rather than a bug, the whole supplement is dead in the water competitively; Vahl is just too good to give up even with her points increase.

Regarding the relics, I like Mina's Wrath. It gives an alternative to my previous "Murderess" build (which is Blessed Blade, Blazing Ire, Rapturous Blows) and makes a decent character killer when combined with Fiery Example. Of course, as I said just above it's not worth leaving out Vahl for it. Seriously hoping they FAQ it so that you can get the new traits with Saint in the Making rather than only your actual Warlord, but unless the OoML ones are already that way, it won't happen. The other two relics are skippable for sure; nobody's gonna bring an Imagifier just for their new relic, and

I definitely like some of the strats. Pregame moving a transport full of nasties is HILARIOUS, and the fact that it only costs 1CP to do it with Sacresants is awesome. Probably worth 2CP to do it with Repentia and combos well with their +1 to charge strat; not so much for Retributors though, so just let them ride with the Dominions instead. The flank-clearing one is cool on Retributors, but it also isn't bad on Paragons or, dare I say it, our tanks. No, it likely doesn't make the tanks worth it, but it does help them get just a bit more value so...eh. Wade Into the Foe is great if you already are planning on taking Paragons as it makes them somewhat meaner vs. hordes of gribblies, but you still aren't going to clear out a full unit of Necron Warriors in a single fight phase or anything. Nice to have something to buff Paragons though, as I'm still fishing for a reason to bring them.

Overall, final verdict will need to wait for the inevitable FAQ for this book.

The thing is, the supplement doesn't affect Morvenn at all. There are ZERO barriers to taking her thanks to the supreme commander detachment. It's almost a targeted nerf at hospitallers and Celestine which makes 0 sense.

Mina's wrath is...fine but it sort of locks you out of Word of the Emperor since the Blade of Saint Ellynor does so much more damage when you're already ignoring Invuls. It's decent to put on a dirt cheap canoness or a Palantine but...that's about it.

Fiery example is really bad. It only works on characters, and gets you maybe 1 miracle dice every other game. Both Blazing Ire and Righteous rage are just way better. Also, OoML had a stratagem specifically to take their warlord traits because, as weak as it was, it was at least designed by someone who knew what they were doing.

The Rhino move strat is the only reason to bother with the book at all. Being able to deliver repentia (and it will be repentia, sacresancts aren't worth it as a missile unit at 16ppm) 21 inches before charge moves is quite good. HOWEVER, it's both easily countered by good deployment AND only has meaningful value going first. Spending 2CP for +1 charge is so exploitatively terrible we should be boycotting it on principle.

The flank clear stratagem requires your opponent to sit a unit valuable enough to be shot at by Multi-Meltas with 6" of a non-player board edge. If they're doing that...I kinda just say let them. There isn't a single mission where that's in range to cap an objective, so who cares? The exception are things that come in from outflank and aircraft, like U02 said, but even then...those units already did their job. If it had been surrounded by some stronger options it would have been a decent niche strat. Because the other stratagems are so weak, it looks worse than it actually is.

Paragons are bad. Any strat that requires them is, unfortunately, automatically bad as a result.

The crux of the matter is this: Sisters of Battle had a 43% winrate at the LVO, the largest tournament in north america, PRE-NERF. We lose subfaction soup AND every competitive list goes up at least 60pts, if not closer to 100. We needed the bloody rose supplement to offer something meaningful to our gameplan if we even wanted to not crash and burn competitively after the savaging CA2022 gave us. Yet, all it managed to do was rub salt in the wound by giving us 3 bad warlord traits, 3 badrelics, 7 incredibly mediocre stratagems, and a 2CP Yolo meme strat. All while locking us out of hospitallers, dialogus, and Celestine unless we pay ANOTHER 2 CP.

We had a good run but we're looking at at least the next 6 months being a throwback to the 6th-7th digital only codex days. We can hope for a hail mary in the balance slate but...oof.

The only one restriction and it's slight is that morvehn has to be your warlord and that disables wl and relics not that they are strong

I disagree atleast partially- 7 mediocre strats is better than none. It was already one of our stronger builds and good ones could easily be too powerful

You also have to consider the game as a whole and that's a very complex thing. It's so much about how much we got nerfed but how much we got nerfed in comparison to others.

The change in sub factions didn't just effect us and the change in missions impact some other factions more. This makes it very difficult to see where we stand until the dust settles. Yes drukhari will be strong but custodes struggle with some of the mission changes hopefully once adjusted we will be middleish

The main reason take the dialogus was to take shield off faith on both subfactions so he's not a loss. The hospitalier was often meh outside a very specific build.

We also got a big buff to some builds in the return of the battle sanctum which for leap of faith is superb

U02dah4 wrote:
The only one restriction and it's slight is that morvehn has to be your warlord and that disables wl and relics not that they are strong

I disagree atleast partially- 7 mediocre strats is better than none. It was already one of our stronger builds and good ones could easily be too powerful

You also have to consider the game as a whole and that's a very complex thing. It's so much about how much we got nerfed but how much we got nerfed in comparison to others.

The change in sub factions didn't just effect us and the change in missions impact some other factions more. This makes it very difficult to see where we stand until the dust settles. Yes drukhari will be strong but custodes struggle with some of the mission changes hopefully once adjusted we will be middleish

The main reason take the dialogus was to take shield off faith on both subfactions so he's not a loss. The hospitalier was often meh outside a very specific build.

We also got a big buff to some builds in the return of the battle sanctum which for leap of faith is superb

Repectfully, the unfortunate truth of our current situation is that it would take more than a codex supplement to make us 'too good'. We've fallen down so much compared to the rest of the field that preserving the internal balance of the codex can't really be a primary concern anymore. We need ANY build that can hold its own. Bloody rose has been consistently losing punch relative to other factions, OoML has to play the trading game with 100pt smaller lists, and VH and AR just don't have the offense necessary to stand up to Tau or Eldar shooting.

The game as a whole has us facing a continuing downward trend of capability, even before the significant nerfs we received. The changes in subfactions didn't just affect us, but it did affect us the most, which means we fall compared to the rest of the field. The mission changes end up pretty neutral for most armies and even the ones who ARE significantly impacted by them, like Custodes, would need to have their win rate crater 17% to get down to where we are before you account for the abysmal CA2022 changes.

To me, it seems somewhat of a foregone conclusion where we'll end up. Based on the LVO performances, our many consecutive nerfs, and our historically bad matchups against aeldari and tau in a time where both appear to be getting extremely strong releases, we can expect a significant drop to SoB winrates across the board.

The point isn't that not being able to take the Dialogus and Hospitaller is a major loss, the point is that it's a totally needless restriction GW slapped onto an already very anemic codex supplement. One that the previous, only slightly less anemic, codex supplement didn't have.

With our armies getting smaller and most missions now requiring some amount of action slaving, we have even less resources to spend getting miracle dice out of the Sanctum. Bloody Rose straight up doesn't have the infantry to spare and OoML both doesn't really need the extra dice and will run out of action economy relatively quickly due to their trade heavy playstyle. It's nice that we can actually deploy it and the obscuring is certainly helpful; but it's not going to make up for the 60pts every SoB player needs to cut now.

All of this could change with a snap of GW's fingers in the February balance pass. Drop the Exorcist 10 more points, increase both missile systems Ap by 1, make devastating refrain a 1CP stratagem and that immediately puts us in a spot where we now have relatively guaranteed damage output both OoML and BR can leverage to advance their gameplans.

Revert the nerfs to Dominions and Armorium Cherubs. Give Paragon warsuits an additional wound. Drop Mortifiers and penitent engines 5 points per model. Let any variety of immolator auto-explode. Fix Tale of the Stoic and give the Dialogus something to make her a more reasonable choice compared to the Dogmata.

All that together would allow us to stay roughly where we are now while giving us more options for list building, anchored by strong non-LoS shooting from the exorcist.

Having played a few of the new missions I do feel like CA2022 missions will be tougher for Sisters. 2 missions have no objectives in the deployment zones, and none have two objectives in the deployment zones. That's a pretty big hit to the more passive playstyle Sisters have excelled at.

Rumor is that bodyguard is also being "addressed" in the February balance patch, which I assume means it will not function in its current state. While I think bodyguard is a bad rule for the game, it's been a critical part of Sisters playing the midfield objectives with Celestine.

ERJAK wrote:
All of this could change with a snap of GW's fingers in the February balance pass. Drop the Exorcist 10 more points, increase both missile systems Ap by 1, make devastating refrain a 1CP stratagem and that immediately puts us in a spot where we now have relatively guaranteed damage output both OoML and BR can leverage to advance their gameplans.

This I would love to see. Even 2/3 of these would make Exorcists worth taking again.

 Dendarien wrote:
Having played a few of the new missions I do feel like CA2022 missions will be tougher for Sisters. 2 missions have no objectives in the deployment zones, and none have two objectives in the deployment zones. That's a pretty big hit to the more passive playstyle Sisters have excelled at.

Rumor is that bodyguard is also being "addressed" in the February balance patch, which I assume means it will not function in its current state. While I think bodyguard is a bad rule for the game, it's been a critical part of Sisters playing the midfield objectives with Celestine.

If they hit bodyguard as well that makes the bump to Sacresancts beyond unnecessary. Without bodyguard they're just mediocre repentia in BR and a 2+ save T3 1W model to everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
All of this could change with a snap of GW's fingers in the February balance pass. Drop the Exorcist 10 more points, increase both missile systems Ap by 1, make devastating refrain a 1CP stratagem and that immediately puts us in a spot where we now have relatively guaranteed damage output both OoML and BR can leverage to advance their gameplans.

This I would love to see. Even 2/3 of these would make Exorcists worth taking again.

And just this one change would be absolutely massive for Sisters. Our biggest weakness in both bloody rose and OoML is we have almost no consistent shooting pressure. Just being able to force our opponent to respond to Exorcist fire would be absolutely massive for us.

Those Exorcist changes would be phenomenal to the army as you all say, and I have especially been miffed about the reduction in AP on both missiles since the reveal that it happened in one of the packaging datasheets. Just that alone, even with the 170 points it is now with the anti-Tank missiles would at least make it a more viable choice in the "casually competitive" scene. If Refrain goes to 1CP then all the better.At this point the Exorcist needs to be like 160 max with the Exorcist Launcher, honestly I would prefer 150 or 155, and keep the anti-infantry mode at 140 base of course.

Sacresants, especially if Bodyguard is getting reworked, really only needed a one point bump to 15 at most and the Dominion nerfs just make zero sense to me. Even with the Blessed Bolts strat without rerolls from Vahl it can be a bit swingy. I have played several games where multiple strats only got me 4 mortal wounds and not the max of 6, which is always what we are looking for, even with at least base rerolls from a Canoness and Palatine.

While I am not a hardcore competitive, WAAC style player, I won't lie that since 9th started my win rate has been through the roof in my local meta, bringing what I would consider pretty "balanced and all comer style lists," and that has been really nice. If we have to endure a few months or more of returning to either low B or high C tier, I will accept it, but after 20 years of almost constant neglect it was really nice to be in the spotlight and have such a nice power boost from late 8th until now. I guess let's just be happy that, even in this "dark time" it will hopefully be better than the days of our White Dwarf codex.

My hope is that this is all fleeting and by this time next year we will be talking about a whole set of buffs the army got and a return to the sight of an occasional GT winning list that we had over the summer! I know I am new to the conversation and most of this is redundant or has already been discussed, but I have been following this thread for a while now and at least wanted to chime in with some "light" even though things look pretty dark right now.

I am a multi army player and I think that always helps you keep a broader perspective I can look at seiglers admech lvo winning list and see its losing 180 pts sure siegler can overcome that but not aj avg player. I can see custodes struggling with Rod (RnD) and engage now they require numbers to be effective. I can see space marines going from a space marine mission and a chapter mission to only being able to take one of the two and also being a little more costly if they want to build to engage while guard and knights got boosts although they were so far down the tiers it doesn't change too much


Drukhari are not gonna change but each of those armies took a hit and it isn't clear to me how big because their in different ways. No custodes won't drop 17% but swings are inverse if they drop 4% other armies increase their win% conversely if knights win 4% more games other armies drop win %

As to now I think bodyguard shenanigans was borderline before and is now too inefficient.

But with the buff of battle sanctum leap of faith board control msu seems good and we wernt really hit in the missions. With that build.

Honestly, Sisters weren't even bad when we were stuck with the White Dwarf 'dex, the lack of support just made people assume they sucked but for my money they were the best CQB MSU army - basically cheaper Space Marines with more special weapons all over the place. Definitely prefer where the army is now tho.

As I've said in the past though, the Exorcist has traditionally been our only effective ranged anti-tank option (the Castigator tries to do that now but lol) and with all the nerfs the army's gotten this past month I think we can afford to make it good again.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Honestly, Sisters weren't even bad when we were stuck with the White Dwarf 'dex, the lack of support just made people assume they sucked but for my money they were the best CQB MSU army - basically cheaper Space Marines with more special weapons all over the place. Definitely prefer where the army is now tho.

As I've said in the past though, the Exorcist has traditionally been our only effective ranged anti-tank option (the Castigator tries to do that now but lol) and with all the nerfs the army's gotten this past month I think we can afford to make it good again.

I didn't play with the white dwarf deck at all but I did play with the digital only 6th dex a lot in both 6th and 7th and hoo boy was that rough. You had a decent chance against marines if they didn't use any psykers or Battle Company but playing Eldar was so hilariously one sided it wasn't even funny. A good eldar player could table an average Sisters player without losing a single model if they killed the Exorcists first.

I actually managed to get the exorcist banned from a casual tournament we had in those days. Good times...good times.

We seem stuck in this really odd cycle now where we get absolutely busted rules and then garbage in quick succession. The Index rules for sisters were quietly beyond OP. I actually came in top 32 at a Major with that book well after most armies had gotten their codex. 5 units of full scout dominions and double moving melta seraphim were obscene. Celestine was the single best model in the entire GAME at that point. I played a thousand point tournament where she averaged 800pts killed per game by herself. If they'd have released our new units and given us Order Conviction rules on top of THAT book, we would have made Drukhari look like pre-codex GSC.

Then the beta codex came out, and with it, the dark times. It was unbelievable how much worse the beta codex was than the Index. I dropped out after two games at Adepticon because across both games the knight crusader was basically my only useful model and it was really, really boring.

Then the first REAL codex came out and was probably my favorite book GW ever printed. God it was so good with so many interesting builds and the only bad unit in the entire thing was the Immolator. Loved it.

Then the multimelta change happened and we were broken OP bullgak for a while.

Then the new book came out and was a basically Lacroix version of the 8th edition dex. The inclusion of Vahl and Sacresanct as well as fixing Celestine and Dominions did a lot to prop the book up, but it was clearly a weaker core than we had in 8th.

Now with the hits we took in CA2022 and how anemic the BR supplement was...idk, it's not looking good.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Honestly, Sisters weren't even bad when we were stuck with the White Dwarf 'dex, the lack of support just made people assume they sucked but for my money they were the best CQB MSU army - basically cheaper Space Marines with more special weapons all over the place. Definitely prefer where the army is now tho.

As I've said in the past though, the Exorcist has traditionally been our only effective ranged anti-tank option (the Castigator tries to do that now but lol) and with all the nerfs the army's gotten this past month I think we can afford to make it good again.

While I did not play much with the White Dwarf dex (I was still using the Witch Hunters dex for most of when I started at the end of 4th/early 5th) I definitely remember the digital codex in 6th and 7th not being nearly as bad as people remember. I guess compared to the digital dex I just consider the White Dwarf one to be annoying because of the Acts of Faith System that was still using the Faith Point mechanic, which while I liked narratively, always seemed to be a bit janky in the game. I preferred just having a leadership test to take on each unit for their specific AoF during 6th and 7th. But I concede that the system in 5th and even 3rd for that matter at least let you give certain buffs where you needed and giving us good flexibility instead of each unit having its own AoF that it was stuck using. One thing I do wish they would have kept in the 9th codex was our ability to bring two special weapons/one special and one heavy in minimum squads of 5, and then just do up to two heavy weapons in squads of 10 and then up to four special weapons in max squads of 20. If nothing else, it at least separated us from marines a bit. Though, if we want to be the "postergirl" of 40k next to the "posterboy" I guess I am fine with accepting the "marine treatment" when it comes to 5 and 10 woman squads.

As for the Exorcist, I agree with you completely. Even with access to a 72" S9 Battle Cannon with flat 3 damage and 4d3 autocannon shots (which are both nice options to have) Miracle Dice make that d6 damage so much scarier than it ever was in early 8th and 3d3 S8 shots are just wonderful compared to a lowly d6 (see the Castigator Battle Cannon). I just want that AP back to -3, there was NO reason to bring either missiles AP down honestly. The iteration of the Exorcist in the 8th codex (without the T8 and 12 wounds of course since that was getting changed the moment we had a MBT like the Castigator) at its current points value would be about the closest thing to a perfect tank for us, even if Devastating Refrain remains at 2CP. I am honestly wondering, if any buffs to the Exorcist actually occur at the end of the month, if just bringing two or three again might be viable in certain builds. Only time will tell of course, but right now there are just a few too many things in the codex that make me scratch my head wondering why they did that (Tale of the Stoic) and it makes any amount of nerfs to the army or decent change to the game knock us down a tier. We just always felt fragile, teetering between upper mid-tier and lower top tier, and we got hit hard because of bodyguard shenanigans, a GT we won last summer with a list piloted by a great player, and the mixing of orders like BR/AS/EC. Compared to Dark Eldar (nope never calling them Drukhari sorry), Admech, Grey Knights, and some of the other "top factions" we just needed a limited points increase on Vahl and Sacresants and then a 20 points drop to each of our tanks and Warsuits, and maybe a 1-5 points drop on a few other units like our support characters.

I still think we will shake out somewhere in the middle of B tier moreso than C tier after all is said and done though, so let's have some faith and play around to find what works going forward, despite the lackluster supplement.

P.S (this is more of a rant you can stop reading here if you want)

Finally, I am going to go back to it one more time...WHY are Exorcist missiles, which are supposed to be STRONGER than krak missiles, JUST KRAK MISSILES NOW? Do the words "melta missile" mean nothing to them? Sorry, the Exorcist is, as anyone who has read my posts before knows, just about my favorite model in the entire line (old and new of course) and it hurts to see what they have done with my baby. It's either been okay but overcosted or not great and overcosted or undercosted but bad or just somewhere in between. Even when it has been "good" it has always felt just a bit too expensive for not having a rule to ignore LoS, and now that it finally has a way of getting it, its overcosted again with the "best" (relatively) version of its missiles. This is the one thing I will complain about until they actually get it right, so don't mind me, but it's just always so close and then takes a massive swing in the wrong direction and it is so disappointing even after the number of shots got buffed at least. Just give us Heavy 3d3 S8 AP -3 DD6 Exorcist Missiles and hell give it Blast so it can't fire in melee that made sense to me. Then Heavy 3d6 S5 (maybe 6) AP -2 D1 Blast/Ignores Cover for the Conflagration rockets and if they actually did go to strength 6 make them 10 points sure, otherwise just keep them free.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
ERJAK,

I like your analysis of the cycle we are currently in and I definitely agree with you. Additionally, I played dozens of games against Eldar in 5th-7th edition and agree with you completely. I do not believe I ever won a single game against them until we got the Index rules in 8th.

Let's just be happy we aren't stuck with the beta codex at least. The 9th book is going to keep us better than that right!

Hi, old player returning to the game here, so forgive me if I ask something that is 'common sense'.

Does a Valorous Heart list make sense right now? I'm thinking a big squad of sacresancts running with a canoness, Ephrael, dialogus, hospitaller, and some penitent engines to make a big scary centre block that can absorb an absurd amount of punishment whilst still dishing out a fair amount. Then having some 10girl squads, dominions, retributors, and 5 MM immolators to smack face and take objectives.

I can pack all this into 2000pts and it seems to have a nice balance of resilience (the canoness in particular can be incredibly tanky), firepower (30+ melta shots), and numbers.

Its one of the three bloody rose, and order of our martyred lady being the other two however due to the recent changes noone can give you a data based answer only speculation

 J.Black wrote:
Hi, old player returning to the game here, so forgive me if I ask something that is 'common sense'.

Does a Valorous Heart list make sense right now? I'm thinking a big squad of sacresancts running with a canoness, Ephrael, dialogus, hospitaller, and some penitent engines to make a big scary centre block that can absorb an absurd amount of punishment whilst still dishing out a fair amount. Then having some 10girl squads, dominions, retributors, and 5 MM immolators to smack face and take objectives.

I can pack all this into 2000pts and it seems to have a nice balance of resilience (the canoness in particular can be incredibly tanky), firepower (30+ melta shots), and numbers.

Pure VH had the best showing of any sister's setup at the LVO, so it's one of our best strategies, but there are some serious challenges going forward:

1. No other list made more use of Sacresancts, Vahl, and Retributors. Most VH lists maxed out on all 3. The point bumps to those units REALLY hurt.
2. Tau and Eldar are likely going to get plenty of tools that will bypass VH defenses easily and with both books looking extremely strong...that's not great.

If you are going pure VH, a couple of recommendations:

1. Either take 3 minimum units of battle sisters or a big block of 20 battle sisters and then 2 minimum squads. 10 girl squads are mostly just a waste of points, even with all the defensive buffs VH can level.

2. Pengines and Mortifiers are not nearly as resilient as you might think. Sacresancts are the most resilient unit in the army in practice and even after the nerfs every VH list should figure on taking at least 25.

3. Dominions are very questionable after the bumps. Mostly just outflanking your rets should work just fine.

4. Always take a Dogmata over a dialogus. +15 points for obsec on anything and shoot while doing actions is a steal.

5. Vahl is MANDATORY. Even Argent Shroud don't benefit from her aura as much as VH do.

GFdoubles wrote:
Just give us Heavy 3d3 S8 AP -3 DD6 Exorcist Missiles

Isn't that basically what it's now except -3? Which conveniently gets basically ignored because everything worth shooting as minimum of 5++ anyway.

tneva82 wrote:

GFdoubles wrote:
Just give us Heavy 3d3 S8 AP -3 DD6 Exorcist Missiles

Isn't that basically what it's now except -3? Which conveniently gets basically ignored because everything worth shooting as minimum of 5++ anyway.

Yeah, but it's also usually a 2+. -3 would at least let us force them onto the invul.

The bigger deal is devastating refrain. If it was 1CP, I could see taking an exorcist in every list. At 2CP it's such a drain on our resources that it's not worth it to fire the thing. Even though we are in desperate need of reliable long range firepower.

Also, give the exorcist it's extra wound and T8 back. The only reason it lost them was to make people take Castigators and no one takes Castigators anyway. In fact, I'd be very surprised if there are more than a half dozen fully assembled Castigators in the world outside of GW HQ. Even casual players and modelers looked at that thing and went 'great, bad predator.'

I don't think the Castigator is worse than a Predator. Both are pretty bad, competitively. What's more, I don't know how you would fix units like that. Reducing the points costs would only go so far; they just don't do anything special to make you want to take them over more efficient options.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I don't think the Castigator is worse than a Predator. Both are pretty bad, competitively. What's more, I don't know how you would fix units like that. Reducing the points costs would only go so far; they just don't do anything special to make you want to take them over more efficient options.

You're right, points changes won't fix it. The Castigator does roughly the same amount of damage in shooting as an MM paragon warsuit and drastically less than Exorcists, let alone Retributors. The flat 3 damage means it doesn't benefit from miracle dice and the D6 shots make it so swingy you can't even rely on it for chip damage. It also has no utility that would make it stand out over even just bringing an Exorcist.

It needs a complete rules rewrite or a VERY pushed stratagem for it to see play. Even letting it benefit from Devastating refrain would be meaningless because it's still point for point worse than an Exorcist. If it had it's own strat that let all of it's guns shoot out of LoS AND let you roll two take the highest for number of shots AND it was only 1 CP, you might see people take (and be disappointed by) one.

Otherwise it needs just a significantly better profile. If they insist on leaving it T7 W11 then it needs either at least a 5+ invul or some way to ignore LoS.

The gun needs to be completely reworked. If they want to leave the defensive profile as bad as it is, The Auto Cannons need to be flat 12 shots and AP-2, The main Battle Cannon needs to be flat 4 or 5 shots with D3+3 damage and no blast. The pyre shell needs to be 4d3.

Those might seem like excessive numbers but with no additional utility and a defensive profile that basically guarantees it will die the moment it's in Line of Sight of ANYTHING in your opponent's army, it needs to have at least a chance to get it's points back in the one round per game on average it'll get to shoot.

ERJAK wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

GFdoubles wrote:
Just give us Heavy 3d3 S8 AP -3 DD6 Exorcist Missiles

Isn't that basically what it's now except -3? Which conveniently gets basically ignored because everything worth shooting as minimum of 5++ anyway.

Yeah, but it's also usually a 2+. -3 would at least let us force them onto the invul.

The bigger deal is devastating refrain. If it was 1CP, I could see taking an exorcist in every list. At 2CP it's such a drain on our resources that it's not worth it to fire the thing. Even though we are in desperate need of reliable long range firepower.

Also, give the exorcist it's extra wound and T8 back. The only reason it lost them was to make people take Castigators and no one takes Castigators anyway. In fact, I'd be very surprised if there are more than a half dozen fully assembled Castigators in the world outside of GW HQ. Even casual players and modelers looked at that thing and went 'great, bad predator.'

Honestly at this point I would be happy if the Exorcist at least went back to 12 wounds even if it stayed T7 and if the Castigator gained AP -2 on the Autocannons and "roll 2d6 take the highest" on the battle cannon sanctified shell. I know all of that alone would not be enough, but combined with the anemic points drop both tanks got it would at least be a bit more "feel good." Honestly, while I know the Castigator is not good (I have one because I need, with the exception of a few units, one of everything when it comes to Sisters) I see it more as a source of S9 than anything else. I like the number of shots on the autocannons and know that the d6 shots for the S9 profile is just bad, but other than the Castigator, Warsuits with maces, the Our Martyred Lady relic pistol and Holy Trinity (barring a few other combos that I may be forgetting), we are usually stuck with a 50/50 chance to wound T8 things. That alone makes me see the S9 battle cannon as having some value, I just wish it was actually somewhat reliable. In every game I have brought the Castigtor so far, I have always used the battle cannon and it at least made it points back (or just about) the last time I brought it, wiping out a squad of 3 Deathrsoud Termies and mowing down poxwalkers on some home objectives. My opponent got a bit reckless of course but at least the tank got to do something, and didn't even die for once! Any game before that...yea it was pretty much a non-factor lol.

Personally, I really hoped that the nerfs to the Exorcist meant the Castigator was going to at least be T8 and have a S9 gun that got some of the Basilisk treatment, but all we got was a worse tank, it's frustrating. So any buffs that these vehicles (or vehicles ingeneral) see in the balance dataslate at the end of the month will make me happy even if they just are not enough.

ERJAK wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I don't think the Castigator is worse than a Predator. Both are pretty bad, competitively. What's more, I don't know how you would fix units like that. Reducing the points costs would only go so far; they just don't do anything special to make you want to take them over more efficient options.

You're right, points changes won't fix it. The Castigator does roughly the same amount of damage in shooting as an MM paragon warsuit and drastically less than Exorcists, let alone Retributors. The flat 3 damage means it doesn't benefit from miracle dice and the D6 shots make it so swingy you can't even rely on it for chip damage. It also has no utility that would make it stand out over even just bringing an Exorcist.

It needs a complete rules rewrite or a VERY pushed stratagem for it to see play. Even letting it benefit from Devastating refrain would be meaningless because it's still point for point worse than an Exorcist. If it had it's own strat that let all of it's guns shoot out of LoS AND let you roll two take the highest for number of shots AND it was only 1 CP, you might see people take (and be disappointed by) one.

Otherwise it needs just a significantly better profile. If they insist on leaving it T7 W11 then it needs either at least a 5+ invul or some way to ignore LoS.

The gun needs to be completely reworked. If they want to leave the defensive profile as bad as it is, The Auto Cannons need to be flat 12 shots and AP-2, The main Battle Cannon needs to be flat 4 or 5 shots with D3+3 damage and no blast. The pyre shell needs to be 4d3.

Those might seem like excessive numbers but with no additional utility and a defensive profile that basically guarantees it will die the moment it's in Line of Sight of ANYTHING in your opponent's army, it needs to have at least a chance to get it's points back in the one round per game on average it'll get to shoot.

IMHO the problem with the Castigator is that it's not really filling a role that the Sisters wanted filled. Its armaments make it best suited for hunting heavy infantry, but it's not really worth 160pts for that role, nor is it worth the opportunity cost of forgoing Retributors, Exorcists (even in their current, sub-optimal status), Mortifiers and Penitent Engines to take one. If it had, like, multi-melta sponsons at the same cost it is currently then it would probably see some actual consideration, and even then it would probably be a worse pick than Retributors for the cost unless you're going for complete armour saturation.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I don't think the Castigator is worse than a Predator. Both are pretty bad, competitively. What's more, I don't know how you would fix units like that. Reducing the points costs would only go so far; they just don't do anything special to make you want to take them over more efficient options.

You're right, points changes won't fix it. The Castigator does roughly the same amount of damage in shooting as an MM paragon warsuit and drastically less than Exorcists, let alone Retributors. The flat 3 damage means it doesn't benefit from miracle dice and the D6 shots make it so swingy you can't even rely on it for chip damage. It also has no utility that would make it stand out over even just bringing an Exorcist.

It needs a complete rules rewrite or a VERY pushed stratagem for it to see play. Even letting it benefit from Devastating refrain would be meaningless because it's still point for point worse than an Exorcist. If it had it's own strat that let all of it's guns shoot out of LoS AND let you roll two take the highest for number of shots AND it was only 1 CP, you might see people take (and be disappointed by) one.

Otherwise it needs just a significantly better profile. If they insist on leaving it T7 W11 then it needs either at least a 5+ invul or some way to ignore LoS.

The gun needs to be completely reworked. If they want to leave the defensive profile as bad as it is, The Auto Cannons need to be flat 12 shots and AP-2, The main Battle Cannon needs to be flat 4 or 5 shots with D3+3 damage and no blast. The pyre shell needs to be 4d3.

Those might seem like excessive numbers but with no additional utility and a defensive profile that basically guarantees it will die the moment it's in Line of Sight of ANYTHING in your opponent's army, it needs to have at least a chance to get it's points back in the one round per game on average it'll get to shoot.

IMHO the problem with the Castigator is that it's not really filling a role that the Sisters wanted filled. Its armaments make it best suited for hunting heavy infantry, but it's not really worth 160pts for that role, nor is it worth the opportunity cost of forgoing Retributors, Exorcists (even in their current, sub-optimal status), Mortifiers and Penitent Engines to take one. If it had, like, multi-melta sponsons at the same cost it is currently then it would probably see some actual consideration, and even then it would probably be a worse pick than Retributors for the cost unless you're going for complete armour saturation.

It's interesting, the Castigator as it is, manages to be worse even accounting for the price differential than the Exorcist. An exorcist at 170 is still almost infinitely preferable to a Castigator with battle cannon at 155.

But it ALSO manages to be worse than Immolator, irrespective of the price difference. It hasn't come up as much in the comparisons but a twin MM immolator ALSO does more damage on average than the castigator. Even if the immolator had been upped 5 points instead of dropping 10 it'd still be better as a main battle tank than the Castigator is at 155.

So we have a transport that's a better battle tank than our battle tank and we have an 'artillery' that's a better battle tank than our battle tank AND we have an infantry unit that's a better battle tank than our battle tank.

It isn't something that blows the argument wide open, but it is worth pointing out that the Castigator also has 3 Heavy Bolters. I've not been blown away by the Battle Cannon, but having a touch of STR 9 hasn't exactly been useless. Flat damage also opens up miracle dice usages for other units, as not everything in the army has a Simulacrum hanging around.

Castigator can't do the job all by itself, which seems to be the major complaint, but it can definitely contribute in a few different sectors simultaneously.

Not saying it is the best tank, especially in an edition where armored boxes seem to be in short supply, but it isn't exactly a shoddy excuse for a vehicle that has no use. Perhaps the biggest flaw it has is that it doesn't synergize with a lot of the units that the competitive folks are clamoring over. The Castigator feels like it wants to sit somewhere between our frontline transports (Immolators) and the artillery (Exorcists). Just another annoyance that must be prioritized and dealt with before getting to the deep targets.

Just sharing some of my thoughts while we're dog-piling on the unit.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
It isn't something that blows the argument wide open, but it is worth pointing out that the Castigator also has 3 Heavy Bolters. I've not been blown away by the Battle Cannon, but having a touch of STR 9 hasn't exactly been useless. Flat damage also opens up miracle dice usages for other units, as not everything in the army has a Simulacrum hanging around.

Castigator can't do the job all by itself, which seems to be the major complaint, but it can definitely contribute in a few different sectors simultaneously.

Not saying it is the best tank, especially in an edition where armored boxes seem to be in short supply, but it isn't exactly a shoddy excuse for a vehicle that has no use. Perhaps the biggest flaw it has is that it doesn't synergize with a lot of the units that the competitive folks are clamoring over. The Castigator feels like it wants to sit somewhere between our frontline transports (Immolators) and the artillery (Exorcists). Just another annoyance that must be prioritized and dealt with before getting to the deep targets.

Just sharing some of my thoughts while we're dog-piling on the unit.

The thing is, it DOES synergize with everything competitive in the army. It should, theoretically, cover the single biggest weakness of Sisters competitive builds: Lack of long range shooting pressure. ANYTHING that shoots further than 24" at better than AP-1 D2 has excellent synergy with the rest of what Sisters bring to the table.

The problem with the Castigator is it's offense statline suggests that it's intended to sit back and plink away damage on a couple of different units (3 heavy bolters plus a low output cannon support that idea) and build up advantage over several turns. However, it doesn't have any of the other tools necessary to fill that roll. It doesn't ignore LoS, it's not resilient, it doesn't have any utility, it doesn't have any tricks to help keep it alive.

Compare the Castigator to the Plagueburst Crawler, a tank that excels at that same "build advantage over multiple turns' strategy and is almost the exact same price. The Castigator has a slightly higher damage output but the Plagueburst Crawler has: Native ignore LoS on its main gun, T8, 12 wounds, Disgustingly resilient, 5+ Invul(with potential for a 4+), a -1 toughness aura, and Disgusting Force (a great strat that improves its damage enough to overtake the Castigator).

The Castigator is a PlagueBurst Crawler's weapon system put on a (worse) hammerhead chassis and is the worst of both worlds as a result.

Well, another argument with the Castigator harkens back to 8th edition Exorcist: d6 is very unreliable. They fixed that with 3d3, which definitely makes the Exorcist have quite the upside while giving it some base level of performance above "roll 1 shot and miss...".

And even with the Heavy Bolters, a lot of how I walk out of a game with the Castigator hinges on how that main cannon performs. So I know how easy it is to ignore what those HBs are adding.

I normally have been running the Castigator alongside of a more mechanized approach with Immolators and a Rhino. It doesn't wow me, but it normally can grind its way into the mid game where it can help me cap or block mid-field objectives. Normally the saturation of armor makes the other player have to make some tough choices, but I understand it isn't going to be the best against players who really come to smash face.

An extra wound or two, ESPECIALLY with the new Hammerhead set to square off against it, would definitely be welcomed. I'd like to see it start filling a more heavy tank role (like the LRBT) with the Exorcist more filling that traditional Basilisk role.

But more than anything, I think the main gun is really just a tweak away from not being just... bad Maybe it is time to start breaking away from everything has to have a random profile number of shots to just making it flat Heavy 4 or 5. Let the chance reside in the following 2 rolls, not the first roll to see if you got 1 shot or not.

Again, we lived through the 8th Exorcist and GW listened well enough to acknowledge that d6 shots wasn't a good answer for a tank. And then turned right back around and slapped it on the new hotness... only to be received with the same tepid response for the community. I still like it though, just a tweak away! And we play Crusade... you think these things are overpriced in Matched Play? Lol, you cannot even add the Hunter-Killer to get these things to the 1:20 PLoints ratio. I think 1 with all the expensive options is 185, the other tank is 175... and both are 9PL.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Well, another argument with the Castigator harkens back to 8th edition Exorcist: d6 is very unreliable. They fixed that with 3d3, which definitely makes the Exorcist have quite the upside while giving it some base level of performance above "roll 1 shot and miss...".

And even with the Heavy Bolters, a lot of how I walk out of a game with the Castigator hinges on how that main cannon performs. So I know how easy it is to ignore what those HBs are adding.

I normally have been running the Castigator alongside of a more mechanized approach with Immolators and a Rhino. It doesn't wow me, but it normally can grind its way into the mid game where it can help me cap or block mid-field objectives. Normally the saturation of armor makes the other player have to make some tough choices, but I understand it isn't going to be the best against players who really come to smash face.

An extra wound or two, ESPECIALLY with the new Hammerhead set to square off against it, would definitely be welcomed. I'd like to see it start filling a more heavy tank role (like the LRBT) with the Exorcist more filling that traditional Basilisk role.

But more than anything, I think the main gun is really just a tweak away from not being just... bad Maybe it is time to start breaking away from everything has to have a random profile number of shots to just making it flat Heavy 4 or 5. Let the chance reside in the following 2 rolls, not the first roll to see if you got 1 shot or not.

As I stated previously, I have brought the Castigator in a few casual "beer and pretzel" lists, always with the Battle Cannon (maybe I will try the Autocannons one day) and I have been disappointed about 75% of the time. I LOVE that it fills that niche role of having S9 to actually have a better than 50/50 chance of wounding T8 targets at long range (like PBCs) and that it also packs enough anti-infantry firepower to realistically put a dent in hordes. I agree completely that the biggest issue with the Battle Cannon is definitely that d6 number of shots, and GW had the answer but just chose not to implement it. All the Castigator needed to make it [i]okay[i] in fluffy, casual, and maybe even casually competitive lists was either a Basilisk treatment of roll 2d6 and take the highest or a Leman Russ style rule that allowed it to fire twice if it didn't move or only moved half its movement or something. Even with its only defensive play being holy smokescreen I think it would have actually seen some more play in the casual matched play scene.

Sisters vehicles have traditionally always had less guns than other Imperial tanks/artillery/etc. (hell it took until the new models to even have a built in heavy bolter, before then paying for a storm bolter was all you had over the main weapon). I think GW has just never really understood how anemic that is compared to the main gun on a Leman Russ, its hull weapon, sponsons, and any other stubbers you add on (same goes for even something bad like a Predator). Then you add the fact Leman Russes can at least fire twice with its main weapon if they barely move and the only thing that keeps it pretty balanced and far less threatening is the fact it has a BS of 4+ and Tank Commanders are limited. I know GW loves its random number of shots, and the fix to the Exorcist going from d6 to 3d3 was SO GREAT that I am honestly baffled why they didn't at least do something to help the Castigator Battle Cannon. The 3d3 anti-infantry shots on its second profile is really nice of course, but just giving it d6+2 shots on the sanctified shell would have been such a boon for this tank.

I am really praying that there is something in the Balance Dataslate at the end of this month that helps vehicles. Either some kind of massive rework or just buffs to a bunch of vehicles, including ours. I want to play mechanzed Sisters again with Rhinos, Immolators, Exorcists, and Castigators and have a reasonable chance to win in a casually competitive environment. Just to have access to that style build again would be really cool! If they can all just get a wound back and we go back to 12 wound Exorcists and Castigators at least, that would be awesome, even if we are stuck with 11 wound Immolators and the usual 10 wound Rhino of course.

The Balance dataslate comes out and with it....drumroll please...ANOTHER NERF!

Just make all of our guns S1 and get it over with at this point.

It's a double nerf, we also got clarified in our FAQ that you can't use both ammo cherubs in the same turn. Combine that with Argent Shroud now not working out of transports, our options keep getting worse and worse.

ERJAK wrote:
The Balance dataslate comes out and with it....drumroll please...ANOTHER NERF!

Just make all of our guns S1 and get it over with at this point.

Could you be any more dramatic? I guess at least you're playing the right faction to be a drama queen I suppose.

Why the heck are units not considered to have Remained Stationary when they disembark? That makes no sense.

Honestly, the balance dataslate/FAQ nerfed us less than I was expecting (Bodyguard shenanigans continue for now), but the Armourium Cherub nerf makes no sense when they also doubled their cost.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Why the heck are units not considered to have Remained Stationary when they disembark? That makes no sense.

Honestly, the balance dataslate/FAQ nerfed us less than I was expecting (Bodyguard shenanigans continue for now), but the Armourium Cherub nerf makes no sense when they also doubled their cost.

LVO ruled the armourium cherub this way, so, I saw this coming. Still dumb.

Well, I won't be needing to paint my thrid and fourth armorium Cherub for quite some time now... I suppose that's a positive? The increased points cost + this update feel unnecessary. One of them was fine.

The thing about Argent Shroud makes absolutely zero sense. It was a nice niche that Argent Shroud had, which is now taken away. No idea why they thought this deserved to be ruled as such.

Yeah shroud is probably dead competitively. I think bloody rose or valorous heart is the way forward.

Well nice to see all that hope placed in the Balance Dataslate go right out the window. Nerfs galore and a "slap on the wirst" at best to one of the most broken factions in the game.

At this point let's just figure out how to be low B tier again for the next six months and hope that at some point everything gets rebalanced enough where we can return to low A tier. Space Marines have been underwhelming most of the edition, and if we want to be almost as popular as them this edition I will accept being just as underwhelming for a while.

We survived 20+ years of mediocrity and unplayability, it's not nearly as bad yet, and even if it goes that way, we can do it again!

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Why the heck are units not considered to have Remained Stationary when they disembark? That makes no sense.

Honestly, the balance dataslate/FAQ nerfed us less than I was expecting (Bodyguard shenanigans continue for now), but the Armourium Cherub nerf makes no sense when they also doubled their cost.

Waitwaitwait, the not remaining stationary thing overrides the Argent Shroud ability? Usually army-specific things override the BRB rules (like AS units being able to count as stationary when firing even if they Advanced). Or was this in the Sisters FAQ and I just missed it somehow?

Also, RIP Armorium Cherubs, 2020-2022.

"If a unit has disembarked from a Transport model, rules which allow that unit to be treated as though it has Remained Stationary have no effect."

Seems pretty clear-cut, but bafflingly dumb.

 bullyboy wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
The Balance dataslate comes out and with it....drumroll please...ANOTHER NERF!

Just make all of our guns S1 and get it over with at this point.

Could you be any more dramatic? I guess at least you're playing the right faction to be a drama queen I suppose.

At least I'm not going into threads for armies I barely play to butt in. Do you seriously have nothing better to do?

Also, I'd like to point out that, as you can tell from the deluge of negative reactions from other sisters players, I am 100% correct in my assessment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dendarien wrote:
Yeah shroud is probably dead competitively. I think bloody rose or valorous heart is the way forward.

Honestly, Sisters are in a bad place competitively in general. With armies going up 100pts, no subfaction soup, changes to armorium cherubs and the argent shroud rules, it's bad times.

I'm looking at Goonhammer's tier list and honestly, I can't see how we don't end up in at least low tier three or even tier 4.

Tau and GSC both got good books, every variation of Eldar is getting a good book (with better miracle dice as the cherry on top), Necrons got...some amount of buffs. Looking at it, only Guard and pure CSM really look like favorable matchups anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Why the heck are units not considered to have Remained Stationary when they disembark? That makes no sense.

Honestly, the balance dataslate/FAQ nerfed us less than I was expecting (Bodyguard shenanigans continue for now), but the Armourium Cherub nerf makes no sense when they also doubled their cost.

Waitwaitwait, the not remaining stationary thing overrides the Argent Shroud ability? Usually army-specific things override the BRB rules (like AS units being able to count as stationary when firing even if they Advanced). Or was this in the Sisters FAQ and I just missed it somehow?

Also, RIP Armorium Cherubs, 2020-2022.

GW isn't consistent enough in their rules writing for things like 'army rules overwrite BRB rules' to be usable rules of thumb.

So yeah, argent shroud remain stationary isn't even really a rule anymore. Doesn't work out of reserves, doesn't work out of transports. You can still advance out from behind obscuring to be out of range to shoot anything important because our good guns top out at 24", but that's not a great consolation prize.

You know, for once, I think letting ERJAK throw salt around unmitigated is probably the right play Sling on, my friend!

This "balance" pass seems to be AT BEST a big nothing burger. Honestly, though, it comes off as a slap in the face of people who kinda wanted meaningful changes. I guess this is an exercise in "you get what you pay for".

Purifying Tempest wrote:
You know, for once, I think letting ERJAK throw salt around unmitigated is probably the right play Sling on, my friend!

This "balance" pass seems to be AT BEST a big nothing burger. Honestly, though, it comes off as a slap in the face of people who kinda wanted meaningful changes. I guess this is an exercise in "you get what you pay for".

The thing that has me so frustrated is how much better off WE specifically but the game in general would have been if they'd just done nothing.

Yup, I see nothing but lost options across the board. I don't think anything was particularly game-altering, but options are just being removed. You wanted to play meched up Argent Shroud? Well, that's akin to playing without a Conviction for a LARGE portion of the game. The change was just unnecessary.

So to quantify the changes Sisters players have had to endure over the past couple of weeks:

1) Rising costs on units performing well, and Dominions. Vahl, Sacresants, even Armorium Cherubs had an argument. Then there was Dominions, which... while good... they weren't THAT good. The nerf should have been aimed at Blessed Bolts, not Dominion squads.

2) Armorium Cherubs "clarified" to nerf them again. Effectively, you only ever bring 1 per squad. Rets are already a massive trade piece that your opponent cannot ignore once they come out. So this was literally paying the same price for half the effect.

3) Argent Shroud and the "counted as moving" when arriving on the table, regardless of their Conviction. Seems like a pointless nerf to a style of play that didn't really exist, and now will probably not even have a chance to really exist.

4) Order mixing is gone. I personally don't mind it, but I know this is a really big deal for people scraping to get every % point out of their list and still only making it to "Gatekeeper" status for our evil, pointy-eared overlords.

5) Thrown a bone with a slight reduction to the cost of our armor, which was already floating around LRBT cost... only to see the Guard's pet baby get a 2+ while still sporting more wounds and toughness. I would have honestly liked to see a pip of armor on our tanks more than a "slight" reduction in cost. Chipping is still a very real death with the high rate of fire, and Valorous Heart and 2+ vehicles may have been an interesting sight.

6) Still cannot get over how mind-numbingly bad the Dominion change was. They got hit in both points and PL (5 now for the squad). I may bring 1 squad now just to have access to Blessed Bolts, but I don't think the squad was exactly game-ending for the opponent and this just makes them a LOT less attractive.

So yeah, I can get why there's a lot of salt coming from Sisters' players, feels like GW has been poking this player base pretty consistently for about a month while turning a bit of a blind eye to other, larger, problems.

As bad as everything looks right now, I am still hoping for some kind of saving grace here. Maybe some new competitive playstyle will come out of this (other than Bloody Rose of course), or maybe the hits to some of the other books around us will keep us in the mid-tier at least.

I go back to a Tabletop Tactics video I saw months ago where they said something to the effect of "don't worry all the changes will make sense when you see the final product of all the books, it's just gonna be a while." I still don't know exactly what they meant or even if any of that is still remotely true, but maybe once every book is out (before the SM codex 2.0 hits) we will see some "nirvana" of "balance" we have never seen in 40k before.

Or hey maybe we will get added to the 2.0 codex factions and it won't just be marines! I know we are in for a tough time regardless, but I am going to stay positive because at least we are not the red headed stepchild of 40k anymore!

While I think ERJAK's complaints are often over-stated IMHO, he's also coming at the army from a competitive standpoint whereas I'm definitely more casual so I get the difference in opinion. That said, Sisters took a hit, no question. Just seeing the whithering firepower the latest codices can put out, it feels like Sisters are getting nerfed when they definitely do not need it, it's knee-capping our ability to keep up moreso than actually balancing anything (of course, if they wouldn't power-creep the game with every new release that wouldn't be a problem...).

All these nerfs are the real reason I'm shelving my Sisters for the time being. One of the nice things about having multiple armies is being able to switch to another one if the one you're playing gets hit with the nerf bat. I was probably going to switch anyway, as I've been missing my Dark Angels despite them being less good, but this seals it. The DA are probably stronger at this point!

It will be interesting, to say the least, to see what die-hard Sisters players are able to come up with for the 2022 ITC season. It's gonna be an uphill battle for sure.

I think two variants of Sisters will emerge:

1. Bloody Rose good stuff - lots of combat characters, Vahl in a supreme command detachment maybe, Rhino full of novitiates/repentia and so on.

2. Valorous Heart mech sisters - the VH trait is really solid into a lot of Tau and Custodes damage. Even with the points increase I could see 30 sacresants just being a nightmare to remove.

ERJAK wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
The Balance dataslate comes out and with it....drumroll please...ANOTHER NERF!

Just make all of our guns S1 and get it over with at this point.

Could you be any more dramatic? I guess at least you're playing the right faction to be a drama queen I suppose.

At least I'm not going into threads for armies I barely play to butt in. Do you seriously have nothing better to do?

Also, I'd like to point out that, as you can tell from the deluge of negative reactions from other sisters players, I am 100% correct in my assessment.

wait, so that's worse than spamming literally every thread with your moaning how sisters are now "trash" or "garbage" constantly? I don't care if I play sisters once or twice or year, it's not up to you to gatekeep my presence here.
Multi order should never have been a thing (at least without a downside), so glad it makes people really make a choice (outside of playing with your buddies of course, then do whatever).
AS has been pretty much the go to alongside BR for the comp scene for awhile now, at least people will need to think more within the contents of the codex.
The Ret change, meh, give or take on that one, just no reason to buy a second one at this point.

I actually do agree with you that the points drop on the vehicles didn't go far enough, but I prefer to look for solutions, not just trash the army and go elsewhere.
Morvenn Vahl was going up in points, literally everyone knew that.
Dominions are an odd choice. Nerf the strat, not the unit.
Sacresants also are fine with the bump, but my concern is it will be unnecessary if the bodyguard rule gets addressed as people think it will.

I'm actually excited to see what people will come up with for sisters with all the changes in place, will b nice to see something other than AS/BR mix.

I'm hearing and agreeing with the reactions here, and they hit my preferred Order and unit (Dominions). I'm not sure about giving up on either, though. Assuming nice dense terrain with good variety, what about footslogging AS? Still using Dominions to sling other units into position? Or trading in the Rhino points to add meatshields? I'm imagining 20 AS Sisters with HotE surging forward trailing a Dogmata with Chatechism of Repugnance. It won't hit as hard as Blessed Bolts, but it still seems spicy.

Also, I'd love to hear more about our favorable matchups with new codices... I haven't looked much at Tau, Eldar, Nids changes.

 MacPhail wrote:
I'm hearing and agreeing with the reactions here, and they hit my preferred Order and unit (Dominions). I'm not sure about giving up on either, though. Assuming nice dense terrain with good variety, what about footslogging AS? Still using Dominions to sling other units into position? Or trading in the Rhino points to add meatshields? I'm imagining 20 AS Sisters with HotE surging forward trailing a Dogmata with Chatechism of Repugnance. It won't hit as hard as Blessed Bolts, but it still seems spicy.

Also, I'd love to hear more about our favorable matchups with new codices... I haven't looked much at Tau, Eldar, Nids changes.

I think the footslogging approach is much better with Valorous Heart than AS. Transports are also going to be key against Tau and all of their indirect fire.

I'm not planning on shelving the army by any means, but I would expect that in 3-6 months we'll be getting some sort of concession from GW when they realize they screwed up. :/

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I'm not planning on shelving the army by any means, but I would expect that in 3-6 months we'll be getting some sort of concession from GW when they realize they screwed up. :/

If they continue to roll out Order updates like they did with OoML, there will be small opportunities to adjust balance... a lot to hope for, I know, but look what Astartes chapters have grown into.

 MacPhail wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
I'm not planning on shelving the army by any means, but I would expect that in 3-6 months we'll be getting some sort of concession from GW when they realize they screwed up. :/

If they continue to roll out Order updates like they did with OoML, there will be small opportunities to adjust balance... a lot to hope for, I know, but look what Astartes chapters have grown into.

That's what was bizarre with choosing BR to roll out with nachmund book. Most players were using BR to begin with, how about adding content for perhaps SR to give them a boost?

Quick question I thought off while driving and pondering over lists: can you still advance and shoot with Argent Shroud after disembarking from a transport? A quick look made this unclear to me and I don't have all the books at hand right now. It would reaaallly suck if the new FAQs also prevented this part of the AS order to function.

Us3Less wrote:
Quick question I thought off while driving and pondering over lists: can you still advance and shoot with Argent Shroud after disembarking from a transport? A quick look made this unclear to me and I don't have all the books at hand right now. It would reaaallly suck if the new FAQs also prevented this part of the AS order to function.

If they have assault weapons like meltaguns yea you can still advance and shoot out of a transport at -1 to hit lol.

From what I am reading to the core rules FAQ and from what I am seeing discussed on multiple forums the "counts as remaining stationary" part of the conviction for AS now no longer applies when they disembark from a transport. Therefore you pretty much have to footslog with AS to get the maximal use of their conviction. If I am mistaken on any of this I am sure I will be corrected, but from the core rules FAQ and what the forums have been discussing, the answer to your query is no as far as I can tell.

Things are unfortunate to say the least right now. Though Auspex Tactics still puts Sisters up near the top of Tier 2 in his recent army tier video, so he's optimistic about us at least!

 Dendarien wrote:
I think two variants of Sisters will emerge:

1. Bloody Rose good stuff - lots of combat characters, Vahl in a supreme command detachment maybe, Rhino full of novitiates/repentia and so on.

2. Valorous Heart mech sisters - the VH trait is really solid into a lot of Tau and Custodes damage. Even with the points increase I could see 30 sacresants just being a nightmare to remove.

Bloody rose doesn't have room to run Vahl, Imo. Mono-BR along with Mono-OoML were already cutting Vahl quite frequently before the nerfs. The thing is that BR has to play SO aggressively that her force multiplier abilities almost never have more than 1-2 units in range. Celestine is generally a better take because of how much forward pressure she can put out while also benefiting from cover/LoS blocking/Sacresanct lines.

Personally, after the point bumps and thanks to the 1 good BR strat we got, a murder canoness and Celestine seems like a better purchase to me than Vahl. And yes, that's with the 2 CP cost of being forced to bring a patrol to access the new strats because GW are stupid.

In reality though, most people building BR for competitive have dropped the named characters. Canoness, Palantine, potentially an inquisitor considering how good psychic interrogation is into Tau and Custodes.

 bullyboy wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
The Balance dataslate comes out and with it....drumroll please...ANOTHER NERF!

Just make all of our guns S1 and get it over with at this point.

Could you be any more dramatic? I guess at least you're playing the right faction to be a drama queen I suppose.

At least I'm not going into threads for armies I barely play to butt in. Do you seriously have nothing better to do?

Also, I'd like to point out that, as you can tell from the deluge of negative reactions from other sisters players, I am 100% correct in my assessment.

wait, so that's worse than spamming literally every thread with your moaning how sisters are now "trash" or "garbage" constantly? I don't care if I play sisters once or twice or year, it's not up to you to gatekeep my presence here.
Multi order should never have been a thing (at least without a downside), so glad it makes people really make a choice (outside of playing with your buddies of course, then do whatever).
AS has been pretty much the go to alongside BR for the comp scene for awhile now, at least people will need to think more within the contents of the codex.
The Ret change, meh, give or take on that one, just no reason to buy a second one at this point.

I actually do agree with you that the points drop on the vehicles didn't go far enough, but I prefer to look for solutions, not just trash the army and go elsewhere.
Morvenn Vahl was going up in points, literally everyone knew that.
Dominions are an odd choice. Nerf the strat, not the unit.
Sacresants also are fine with the bump, but my concern is it will be unnecessary if the bodyguard rule gets addressed as people think it will.

I'm actually excited to see what people will come up with for sisters with all the changes in place, will b nice to see something other than AS/BR mix.

What do you mean 'actually make a choice?' There isn't a choice. There's a 'best' and an 'everything else', now. Whether it's VH or BR or OoML we won't know until probably after Adepticon, but the idea that there's NOW a choice when 3/4ths of all of your options have been removed is silly. Every single order was seen in at least one high placing sisters list previously. After the subfaction changes that drops to potentially 4, after the 'clarification' on remains as stationary, that drops it to 3. After the point nerfs to Sacresancts, Vahl, Dominions, and cherubs, that most likely drops to 2. Both OoML and VH win based on out-grinding their opponents and both are down almost 100pts of units. I would be very surprised to see both still do well.

The idea that you have to 'think more' when the choice has been boiled down to 'do I punch good(BR) or do I die slow(OoML,VH)?' is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the army, and the game as a whole functions.

Of course, even that's the most optimistic take. It assumes that after the changes to subfaction soup, the substantial points nerfs, and the changes to armorium cherubs, and the changes to remains stationary, that there still IS a reasonable competitive option within the Sisters of Battle army. There might not be. The actual choice might be what CSM, Guard, Khorne Daemon, and Ultramarine players have to make: Accept that you're going to lose most of your games against equal skill players or switch armies.That's the real choice this afforded us.

Yes, the Morvenn hit and even the Sacresanct hit were expected and even the Armorium cherub FAQ wasn't out of nowhere. But the other points increases were totally unnecessary and Dominions didn't need a nerf PERIOD. To the strat OR the unit. They weren't above the power curve at all. Oooh, a maybe chance to do six mortal wounds once in a while? How frightening. I'm sure Drukhari were shaking in their boots.

Changing the bodyguard rule is a whole complicated issue but basically, nerf the bodyguard rule, point drops to Sacresancts and all characters become necessary. Sisters of battle units are almost universally terrible statlines that rely on combining multiple overlapping rules to make them do anything. The more rules you take away, the more silly it looks to pay that much for t3.

Finally, this where familiarity with the army is important. If you'd been following the army, you'd know that there were dozens of very competitive builds using basically every combination of 5 out of the 6 Orders. Some of those got crept out as GW kept releasing more and more broken books, but that wasn't Sisters of Battle's fault. Now you have 2.5 mono order builds. Maybe. That's if 'what they come up with' isn't 'play a better army'.

I won't. I play Sisters and only Sisters. I have no interest in picking up a different army, which is part of why these totally unnecessary nerfs are so infuriating.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GFdoubles wrote:

Us3Less wrote:
Quick question I thought off while driving and pondering over lists: can you still advance and shoot with Argent Shroud after disembarking from a transport? A quick look made this unclear to me and I don't have all the books at hand right now. It would reaaallly suck if the new FAQs also prevented this part of the AS order to function.

If they have assault weapons like meltaguns yea you can still advance and shoot out of a transport at -1 to hit lol.

From what I am reading to the core rules FAQ and from what I am seeing discussed on multiple forums the "counts as remaining stationary" part of the conviction for AS now no longer applies when they disembark from a transport. Therefore you pretty much have to footslog with AS to get the maximal use of their conviction. If I am mistaken on any of this I am sure I will be corrected, but from the core rules FAQ and what the forums have been discussing, the answer to your query is no as far as I can tell.

Things are unfortunate to say the least right now. Though Auspex Tactics still puts Sisters up near the top of Tier 2 in his recent army tier video, so he's optimistic about us at least!

On a positive note, Argent Shroud is so bad as a conviction now, it doesn't matter what the exact nuances of the rule is. Nobody's playing it anyway.

 bullyboy wrote:
Multi order should never have been a thing (at least without a downside), so glad it makes people really make a choice (outside of playing with your buddies of course, then do whatever).

Let's say you have 10 units that make up 2000 points. With the current subfaction lockdown, you have 6 choices to play them. Pick one of 6 orders. That's it. End of choices.

Before, when you could mix and max subfactions as the Emperor intended, you had roughly 210 combinations with those same 10 units.

But yea... we really have the opportunity to make a choice now!

Multi order like soup should always have been a thing because it gave you choices and pre game choices is where you can have complexity because there is no time limit on how much time you have to consider options and there were always opportunity costs - you never encountered 3 subfactions because CP costs were too high.

Now you have bad options and 3 serious options suicidal charge, survive on objectives and play the mission BR VH and OOML and frankly VH will underperformed compared to other factions and BR is win big/lose big. Reality is there will be far less list diversity.

Ok putting aside how grim our competitive outlook is at the moment.

What's the general consensus on buzzsaws vs flails for mortifiers or penitent engines?

In the last codex the answer was always flails but now I'm not sure. 10 attacks vs 5 but str 8 and ap -4 makes it a decision. I'm currently building a mortifier and the weapons look very difficult to magnetize.

Really it depends on your opponent's list now.

Against 1w infantry on the front line Flails if your hitting whatever behind them buzzsaw.

Comp wise I'm looking at 1 Penitent with buzzsaw and mostly that's to fill the 3rd slot in a brigade

On the other hand having them both the buzzsaw looks cooler and is definitely less fragile

U02dah4 wrote:
Really it depends on your opponent's list now.

Against 1w infantry on the front line Flails if your hitting whatever behind them buzzsaw.

Comp wise I'm looking at 1 Penitent with buzzsaw and mostly that's to fill the 3rd slot in a brigade

On the other hand having them both the buzzsaw looks cooler and is definitely less fragile

Flails kill 6 cultists, 4 CSM, 2 Intercessors, and does 2 damage to a rhino.

Buzzsaws kill 3.7 cultists, 3.7 CSM, 3.5 intercessors and does 6 damage to a rhino.

Against anything that doesn't have exactly 3+5++ and -1 Damage the buzzblades are generally the better take.

It's nit as simple as that as your cultist show 1w infantry also are better killed by Flails and they are common in lots of armies on the frontline ourselves, guard, tau and mechanicus

U02dah4 wrote:
It's nit as simple as that as your cultist show 1w infantry also are better killed by Flails and they are common in lots of armies on the frontline ourselves, guard, tau and mechanicus

I mean, yeah. It's up to you as the player to predict the meta you'll face AND use your units efficiently. If you're reasonably confident you can consistenly target 4+ or worse save 1W, infantry, things with 5+ or better invuls, -1 damage, etc, etc, etc, then the flails will perform better.

Same as if you put the buzzblades into rhinos. Buzzblades have a wider variety of effective targets, things flails are better against are generally popular picks (-1D, 5++ are very common statlines).

When I said 3+5++, -1 damage...that's basically the most common profile in the competitive metagame at the moment.

That said, you can run buzz-blades AND flails on the same model if you're willing to sacrifice 1 additional attack for the sake of flexibility.

That's almost always a worse choice as even vs optimal targets with 1 less attack your not gaining much

U02dah4 wrote:

That's almost always a worse choice as even vs optimal targets with 1 less attack your not gaining much

Now running mixed weapons across the UNIT can be fine.1 Double Buzzblades Mortie does enough damage against things like cultists to not be a huge sacrifice on an anchorite and do so much MORE damage against rhinos that they'll be extremely useful against non-ideal targets.

ERJAK wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

That's almost always a worse choice as even vs optimal targets with 1 less attack your not gaining much

Now running mixed weapons across the UNIT can be fine.1 Double Buzzblades Mortie does enough damage against things like cultists to not be a huge sacrifice on an anchorite and do so much MORE damage against rhinos that they'll be extremely useful against non-ideal targets.

Just useing the earlier examples

Flails kill 6 cultists, Both 4.5 Buzzsaw 3.7

Flails kill 4CSM Buzzsaw 3CSM Both 3

Buzz saw 3.5 intercessors Both 2.6 flails 2

Buzzsaw 6 damage to rhino Both 4.5 Flails 2 damage to a rhino.

Flails or buzzsaws are always the best depending on target while Both makes only a small difference to the worst option in the grey area in the middle between the two weapons and significantly underperformed the best vs an optimised target

Your almost always better picking for your meta and targeting appropriately

U02dah4 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

That's almost always a worse choice as even vs optimal targets with 1 less attack your not gaining much

Now running mixed weapons across the UNIT can be fine.1 Double Buzzblades Mortie does enough damage against things like cultists to not be a huge sacrifice on an anchorite and do so much MORE damage against rhinos that they'll be extremely useful against non-ideal targets.

Just useing the earlier examples

Flails kill 6 cultists, Both 4.5 Buzzsaw 3.7

Flails kill 4CSM Buzzsaw 3CSM Both 3

Buzz saw 3.5 intercessors Both 2.6 flails 2

Buzzsaw 6 damage to rhino Both 4.5 Flails 2 damage to a rhino.

Flails or buzzsaws are always the best depending on target while Both makes only a small difference to the worst option in the grey area in the middle between the two weapons and significantly underperformed the best vs an optimised target

Your almost always better picking for your meta and targeting appropriately

Mathematically, yes. If you select a perfect target every time, obviously you're going to be more effective with a single weapon type.

Unfortunately, real game states are rarely so convenient as to offer up perfect targets every time. There's some value to be had with some degree of flexibility. Whether that value is greater than or less than the value of just raw better numbers...depends on the games honestly.

Also, the hard truth of all of this is that it often doesn't matter what melee weapon you equipped because the Tau player killed all of them in his first shooting phase.

ERJAK, show me on the doll where the Tau touched you. Not every game is going to be against Tau. They are a pretty rough matchup for Sisters, yes (heck, with the nerfs a lot of matchups are a bit rough), but you've been bringing them up a lot lately in this thread and others and you won't stop harping about them. Maybe instead of crying about how OP Tau are you could work with the rest of us on coming up with ways to beat them, as well as how to come up with some competitive lists/strategies that will work now that Sisters have eaten nerfs. Saying stuff like "doesn't matter what you do because the Tau killed all of X unit in their first shooting phase" isn't really helpful at all.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
ERJAK, show me on the doll where the Tau touched you. Not every game is going to be against Tau. They are a pretty rough matchup for Sisters, yes (heck, with the nerfs a lot of matchups are a bit rough), but you've been bringing them up a lot lately in this thread and others and you won't stop harping about them. Maybe instead of crying about how OP Tau are you could work with the rest of us on coming up with ways to beat them, as well as how to come up with some competitive lists/strategies that will work now that Sisters have eaten nerfs. Saying stuff like "doesn't matter what you do because the Tau killed all of X unit in their first shooting phase" isn't really helpful at all.

It's illustrative. I use Tau because they're the current boogeymen but the same holds true for most competitive shooting armies. Pick an army that has really strong shooting and substitute the name if it makes you feel better.

Personally, I don't know (or care) if Tau are OP, but they do exemplify the thing WE specifically struggle with. Large Volume, long range shooting. Especially the type that ignores LOS. And yes, certain units aren't very good BECAUSE they'll be wiped out by any competent shooting army in one turn. It's a legitimate reason not to take immolators or Castigators. Other units will get wiped out in one turn but it doesn't matter because they're good even with one turn on the board. Repentia and Retributors and Mortifiers are units like this.

Mortifiers, especially 3+ model units, are very fragile for their points and are prone to being targeted down. Usually this is a good thing because you get at least one round of their solid shooting and force your opponent to expend shots clearing them out, opening up the way for transports/characters/etc to move up field.

Just because they die doesn't mean they weren't valuable and contributed to a successful outcome, it just means that spending too much time worrying about which melee weapon you took isn't really necessary. Even against melee armies, where they absolutely WILL get to swing, your opponent wanting to charge you will limit your ability to get ideal targets as well. The nature of the game is such that the difference between 5 and 3 dead cultists isn't as important as how you use the model that killed said cultists. That's what my point was.

Games against heavy shooting armies like Tau AREN'T won OR (usually) lost in list building for us. From a list building standpoint, the only real option we have to specifically counter armies that specialize in large volume, long range shooting is to take valorous heart, and that's only an effective solution if it's less than AP-2. Whether you bring flails or buzzsaws isn't going to be the deciding factor in those games. As long as you're bringing a reasonable strategy, you'll likely have just as much of a chance with a trade heavy OoML build as an aggressive BR build. The only exception is bringing bad units that also have a bad matchup. If you bring triple Castigator against Tau, that's not going to end well no matter how good you play it.

Where you beat armies like Tau is in the mission. Focus on objectives, play defensively, stick to cover(better smart missiles than smart missiles AND railguns), don't give up points you don't have to. Thanks to the 9th ed tabling rules, you can lose 2000pts of your army to 200pts of theirs and win if you play the mission well.

Do I think that Tau will have a strong advantage over us after the nerf? Obviously. Will they be unbeatable? No. You just have to understand what the consequences are to even small mistakes against armies with that kind of shooting pressure, i.e. dies in one turn.

I disagree games arnt won or lost by who tablewipes who.

Against that army sure I'm expecting to get wiped or close to it but if I can score well enough I'm still winning.

Ooml is certainly still viable leap of faith is an auto 12 and we can play both RND and engage with the right build. The aim isn't to survive till 5 its to score enough and stop the enemy scoring enough in turns 1-3 that 5 when we are dead doesn't matter.

Vh isn't the only answer

Does anyone know the height of the hospitalier?

I'm wanting to make an alternative from sanistasia minst I know the base is 50mm

U02dah4 wrote:
Does anyone know the height of the hospitalier?

I'm wanting to make an alternative from sanistasia minst I know the base is 50mm

Not really an answer to your question, but I had 2 metal Hospitallers that I converted onto 50mm, I imagine Sanistasia Minst would be fine if you can fill out her base to make it not look empty.

U02dah4 wrote:
Does anyone know the height of the hospitalier?

I'm wanting to make an alternative from sanistasia minst I know the base is 50mm

6.5 cm, including the base.

Perfect thankyou

Having just sat down and read the codex:
It seems like Ebon Chalice has a really nasty combo using Heavy Flamer Retributors and a pair of stratagems. Cleansing Flames + Cleansed by Fire is a pricey combination, but with four heavy flamers, a cherub, and a combi-flamer, it's all but guaranteed to get all three mortal wounds on top of a huge number of regular wounds. (Stack on Divine Guidance for the AP buff to really crank up the damage.)

Am I inflating the value in my head, or is this just a strong combo?

Your not over inflateing the combo but it is costly. the big problem is that now you have to be mono subfaction the non flamer units in your army which is the bulk of your army are just better in other subfactions while the order conviction is too miricle dice intensive given their scarcity.

Also this is what I came up with for sanistasia as a hospitalier

U02dah4 wrote:
Your not over inflateing the combo but it is costly. the big problem is that now you have to be mono subfaction the non flamer units in your army which is the bulk of your army are just better in other subfactions while the order conviction is too miricle dice intensive given their scarcity.

That's fair. I'm honestly not too impressed by the other subfactions - The Bloody Rose base option is fine but the warlord trait and relic both feel underwhelming, (The relic is just a much worse version of the Teeth of Terra, and Righteous Rage just seems superior as a melee beatstick trait,) and several of the subfaction abilities just don't feel impactful at all. They'll have a difference, but I can't see myself building whole armies around them, except for maybe Valorous Heart.