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U02dah4 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

That's almost always a worse choice as even vs optimal targets with 1 less attack your not gaining much

Now running mixed weapons across the UNIT can be fine.1 Double Buzzblades Mortie does enough damage against things like cultists to not be a huge sacrifice on an anchorite and do so much MORE damage against rhinos that they'll be extremely useful against non-ideal targets.

Just useing the earlier examples

Flails kill 6 cultists, Both 4.5 Buzzsaw 3.7

Flails kill 4CSM Buzzsaw 3CSM Both 3

Buzz saw 3.5 intercessors Both 2.6 flails 2

Buzzsaw 6 damage to rhino Both 4.5 Flails 2 damage to a rhino.

Flails or buzzsaws are always the best depending on target while Both makes only a small difference to the worst option in the grey area in the middle between the two weapons and significantly underperformed the best vs an optimised target

Your almost always better picking for your meta and targeting appropriately

Mathematically, yes. If you select a perfect target every time, obviously you're going to be more effective with a single weapon type.

Unfortunately, real game states are rarely so convenient as to offer up perfect targets every time. There's some value to be had with some degree of flexibility. Whether that value is greater than or less than the value of just raw better numbers...depends on the games honestly.

Also, the hard truth of all of this is that it often doesn't matter what melee weapon you equipped because the Tau player killed all of them in his first shooting phase.

ERJAK, show me on the doll where the Tau touched you. Not every game is going to be against Tau. They are a pretty rough matchup for Sisters, yes (heck, with the nerfs a lot of matchups are a bit rough), but you've been bringing them up a lot lately in this thread and others and you won't stop harping about them. Maybe instead of crying about how OP Tau are you could work with the rest of us on coming up with ways to beat them, as well as how to come up with some competitive lists/strategies that will work now that Sisters have eaten nerfs. Saying stuff like "doesn't matter what you do because the Tau killed all of X unit in their first shooting phase" isn't really helpful at all.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
ERJAK, show me on the doll where the Tau touched you. Not every game is going to be against Tau. They are a pretty rough matchup for Sisters, yes (heck, with the nerfs a lot of matchups are a bit rough), but you've been bringing them up a lot lately in this thread and others and you won't stop harping about them. Maybe instead of crying about how OP Tau are you could work with the rest of us on coming up with ways to beat them, as well as how to come up with some competitive lists/strategies that will work now that Sisters have eaten nerfs. Saying stuff like "doesn't matter what you do because the Tau killed all of X unit in their first shooting phase" isn't really helpful at all.

It's illustrative. I use Tau because they're the current boogeymen but the same holds true for most competitive shooting armies. Pick an army that has really strong shooting and substitute the name if it makes you feel better.

Personally, I don't know (or care) if Tau are OP, but they do exemplify the thing WE specifically struggle with. Large Volume, long range shooting. Especially the type that ignores LOS. And yes, certain units aren't very good BECAUSE they'll be wiped out by any competent shooting army in one turn. It's a legitimate reason not to take immolators or Castigators. Other units will get wiped out in one turn but it doesn't matter because they're good even with one turn on the board. Repentia and Retributors and Mortifiers are units like this.

Mortifiers, especially 3+ model units, are very fragile for their points and are prone to being targeted down. Usually this is a good thing because you get at least one round of their solid shooting and force your opponent to expend shots clearing them out, opening up the way for transports/characters/etc to move up field.

Just because they die doesn't mean they weren't valuable and contributed to a successful outcome, it just means that spending too much time worrying about which melee weapon you took isn't really necessary. Even against melee armies, where they absolutely WILL get to swing, your opponent wanting to charge you will limit your ability to get ideal targets as well. The nature of the game is such that the difference between 5 and 3 dead cultists isn't as important as how you use the model that killed said cultists. That's what my point was.

Games against heavy shooting armies like Tau AREN'T won OR (usually) lost in list building for us. From a list building standpoint, the only real option we have to specifically counter armies that specialize in large volume, long range shooting is to take valorous heart, and that's only an effective solution if it's less than AP-2. Whether you bring flails or buzzsaws isn't going to be the deciding factor in those games. As long as you're bringing a reasonable strategy, you'll likely have just as much of a chance with a trade heavy OoML build as an aggressive BR build. The only exception is bringing bad units that also have a bad matchup. If you bring triple Castigator against Tau, that's not going to end well no matter how good you play it.

Where you beat armies like Tau is in the mission. Focus on objectives, play defensively, stick to cover(better smart missiles than smart missiles AND railguns), don't give up points you don't have to. Thanks to the 9th ed tabling rules, you can lose 2000pts of your army to 200pts of theirs and win if you play the mission well.

Do I think that Tau will have a strong advantage over us after the nerf? Obviously. Will they be unbeatable? No. You just have to understand what the consequences are to even small mistakes against armies with that kind of shooting pressure, i.e. dies in one turn.

I disagree games arnt won or lost by who tablewipes who.

Against that army sure I'm expecting to get wiped or close to it but if I can score well enough I'm still winning.

Ooml is certainly still viable leap of faith is an auto 12 and we can play both RND and engage with the right build. The aim isn't to survive till 5 its to score enough and stop the enemy scoring enough in turns 1-3 that 5 when we are dead doesn't matter.

Vh isn't the only answer

Does anyone know the height of the hospitalier?

I'm wanting to make an alternative from sanistasia minst I know the base is 50mm

U02dah4 wrote:
Does anyone know the height of the hospitalier?

I'm wanting to make an alternative from sanistasia minst I know the base is 50mm

Not really an answer to your question, but I had 2 metal Hospitallers that I converted onto 50mm, I imagine Sanistasia Minst would be fine if you can fill out her base to make it not look empty.

U02dah4 wrote:
Does anyone know the height of the hospitalier?

I'm wanting to make an alternative from sanistasia minst I know the base is 50mm

6.5 cm, including the base.

Perfect thankyou

Having just sat down and read the codex:
It seems like Ebon Chalice has a really nasty combo using Heavy Flamer Retributors and a pair of stratagems. Cleansing Flames + Cleansed by Fire is a pricey combination, but with four heavy flamers, a cherub, and a combi-flamer, it's all but guaranteed to get all three mortal wounds on top of a huge number of regular wounds. (Stack on Divine Guidance for the AP buff to really crank up the damage.)

Am I inflating the value in my head, or is this just a strong combo?

Your not over inflateing the combo but it is costly. the big problem is that now you have to be mono subfaction the non flamer units in your army which is the bulk of your army are just better in other subfactions while the order conviction is too miricle dice intensive given their scarcity.

Also this is what I came up with for sanistasia as a hospitalier

U02dah4 wrote:
Your not over inflateing the combo but it is costly. the big problem is that now you have to be mono subfaction the non flamer units in your army which is the bulk of your army are just better in other subfactions while the order conviction is too miricle dice intensive given their scarcity.

That's fair. I'm honestly not too impressed by the other subfactions - The Bloody Rose base option is fine but the warlord trait and relic both feel underwhelming, (The relic is just a much worse version of the Teeth of Terra, and Righteous Rage just seems superior as a melee beatstick trait,) and several of the subfaction abilities just don't feel impactful at all. They'll have a difference, but I can't see myself building whole armies around them, except for maybe Valorous Heart.

OPG tournament I finalised my list and I'm going OML (after finding out the WTC ban fortifications in their faq). I think it's the best at playing the mission at the moment and that's sometimes more important than damage output or staying power

The extra miracle dice make the difference for reliable maxing of a leap of faith secondary

The other half is weaker but can be nice on occasion especially with big units like novitiates

Honour the Martyrs is hideously powerful when combined with beat sticked characters they have to kill. Who doesn't want +1 to wound that LoW for 90% of your army for the rest of the game

Shieldbearer WL is pretty strong once you realise its bonus sacrifice dice apply to any character and its worded in such a way as you get two 6's when the character dies (sacrifice and OML warlord trait)combined with the chaplet of Sacrifice these rules are powerful

Then you have the righteous rage Martyrs strength blade of Sacrifice beststick combo as good as any BR character

Then we have a Martyrs duty strat which is great value for 1cp on melta repentia while death before disgrace is huge being able to give a unit obsec at the right moment is clutch for playing the mission

I also find myself switching to the passion over hand of the emperor. I'm less melee orientated so it's less crucial I make those charges and so with only one or two melee units that need to get in and plenty of miracle dice it's not needed while the switch to passion makes up some of the difference from br

Okay, am I crazy or are Mortifiers just flatly better than Penitent Engines for a negligible point cost? Mortifiers are significantly more accurate, you can buy better armor, and they can fight even after being killed. Penitent Engines can... charge after advancing.

Seeing as I'm paying for the two heavy flamers, I really don't see nearly as much utility in advance+charge as I do in hitting more often and attacking even if I get destroyed.

Mortifiers are usually better, yes, but that advance and charge from a Pengine can come in handy in certain situations. For instance, if you need to reach a table quarter to score Engage on All Fronts, and a regular Advance move won't quite get you there, you can charge to make up the remaining distance assuming there is an enemy in the right place (and assuming said enemy won't just destroy your Pengine...).

Also, personally I think Heavy Bolters are better on Mortifiers; they take advantage of the accuracy and provide some good long range punch. If I wanted flamers, I probably would just take Pengines. The auto-max shots strat is hilarious on a full 4-model unit of Pengines; 48 auto hits at S6 will be very dangerous to a lot of things, and they are D1 so all the damage reduction stuff doesn't affect them.

1) accuracy doesn't matter on a flamer so you could argue the PE is more accurate

2) On circle deployment maps your Penitent engine can probably charge T1 and tie something up

3) PE is slightly cheaper

4) if your not going to pay for the armour. upgrade its not really a difference

Their different units I look to include a Penitent engine for utility but mortifiers after that

Waaaghpower wrote:
Having just sat down and read the codex:
It seems like Ebon Chalice has a really nasty combo using Heavy Flamer Retributors and a pair of stratagems. Cleansing Flames + Cleansed by Fire is a pricey combination, but with four heavy flamers, a cherub, and a combi-flamer, it's all but guaranteed to get all three mortal wounds on top of a huge number of regular wounds. (Stack on Divine Guidance for the AP buff to really crank up the damage.)

Am I inflating the value in my head, or is this just a strong combo?

For the CPs you pay, it's probably not worth it to do both unless you're after a really hard target, I'd just say to do one or the other. I had been doing Cleansed by Fire on Seraphim when they drop in but IMHO it's not going to be worth it against most targets, unless you REALLY need something dead.

Waaaghpower wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Your not over inflateing the combo but it is costly. the big problem is that now you have to be mono subfaction the non flamer units in your army which is the bulk of your army are just better in other subfactions while the order conviction is too miricle dice intensive given their scarcity.

That's fair. I'm honestly not too impressed by the other subfactions - The Bloody Rose base option is fine but the warlord trait and relic both feel underwhelming, (The relic is just a much worse version of the Teeth of Terra, and Righteous Rage just seems superior as a melee beatstick trait,) and several of the subfaction abilities just don't feel impactful at all. They'll have a difference, but I can't see myself building whole armies around them, except for maybe Valorous Heart.

The subfaction will 100% decide how you build your army (unless you do Engine of Redemption spam).

+1 Attack -1 AP doesn't seem like that big of a deal...right up until you realize that it increases the damage repentia do by 80%. +1 attack and run and charge is fantastic on melee characters that stuggle with speed and while that relic is terrible, the generic sword relic is not. Neither is Rapturous blows which encourages you to take our excellent defensive relics.

The bonuses from OoML, especially with the supplement, highly encourage a trade heavy playstyle that gets almost as much value out of your units dying as your opponent's units killing.

Valorous Heart turns the army into an objective grinder, focused on clogging up no man's land objectives with bodies whose odd statlines (most notably 2+4++ T3 1W) mean your opponent is almost always wasting some aspect of their weapon profile.

You can include units that have weaker synergy with the subfaction rules for specific tasks (i.e. OoML often includes Zephyrim as suicide objective grabbers) but in general what subfaction you are will be the determining factor in what units you bring.

+1A on repentia is really a 50% increase vs most targets the extra ap is often wasted. I would also argue that when you go melee heavy your reliant on making multiple charges so you you take +1 to adv and charge as your SR over extra hits on 6's which can make up 1/6 of the difference which is more viable when your not reliant on multi charges and can miricle dice the charge. So for most games it's about 33% more as BR with +1 to charge compared to another faction with the passion Thats still a big boost but its nowhere near 80%.

U02dah4 wrote:
+1A on repentia is really a 50% increase vs most targets the extra ap is often wasted. I would also argue that when you go melee heavy your reliant on making multiple charges so you you take +1 to adv and charge as your SR over extra hits on 6's which can make up 1/6 of the difference which is more viable when your not reliant on multi charges and can miricle dice the charge. So for most games it's about 33% more as BR with +1 to charge compared to another faction with the passion Thats still a big boost but its nowhere near 80%.

Except I didn't say '80% against select targets in real world circumstances blah blah blah blah blah' I said 80% increase. Which is the raw numerical value. Which is correct for the point I was making. If I was having whatever imaginary argument you were having with yourself, you would be correct. I wasn't so I was correct and you were just blathering at the void.

Your point was that as long as you ignore real games and focus on optimal targets only in perfect circumstances it gives you an 80% boost which effects list construction more strongly

So ever since CA 2022 I have been trying to experiment with a few different lists, like double Exorcists, big Brigade Detachments of six BSS, etc. Given the choice to play Bloody Rose, OoML, or Valorous Heart in order to remain semi-competitive in my local meta (though I am also a big fan of EC still) I have chosen Valorous Heart because of my non melee morde playstyle.I still bring a custom fluffy Order for more narrative games, but I am just speaking from my matched play pickup game experience, which are the majority of games I play.

However, while most of my lists have been pretty successful against the "casual competitive" lists my local opponents often bring, I have actually run into a slight wall against a local Death Guard player. While I have barely ever had issues with Death Guard in the past few editions (while they have been somewhat of a struggle in terms of removing them from the board I have always been able to play the objective game better with my playstyle and approach), ever since the CA changes it has been more difficult to deal with triple PBC's and I am even dealing with old Possessed bombs now using summoned DP's and other character support.

I have traditionally actually faired pretty well with the "20 girls with 4 Storm Bolters" approach in the past buffed up by character support so I am debating going back to that along with an Exorcist, Sacresants, two squads of MM Rets of course, a few other minimum BSS squads for objectives and the Vahl/Dogmata/Hospitaller combo for the blob of girls coupled with the transhuman strat to maintain survivability. Finally, I plan on bringing a few deep strikers such as Celestine and Seraphim/Zephyrim to score engage and perhaps RND and a Dominion squad for some Blessed Bolts.

Anyway, I know a big part of this has just been some poor playing on my part. I perhaps have been overcommitting certain units in the center, and I try not to abuse the Bodyguard shenanigans (though my Sacresants usually get focused by this guy anyway by the PBC's if they are hiding or by everything else if they are pushing up) just out of sportsmanship, but I was hoping some people could share some advice on the Death Guard matchup. It's just been really interesting the last few games where I have just been losing the center or even more primary objectives very quickly compared to my previous times playing against the faction. My various opponents have been playing well of course, but I would say neither of us are building GT winning lists. There are some shenanigans here and there on both sides of course, but we keep it pretty fair, so I am just not exactly sure why the last few games have just been so difficult for me to even have a chance of winning when I would say Death Guard got hit harder than we did in CA. In fact, in one of my most recent victories against the faction I actually brought Repentia despite them being a relatively sub-optimal choice against them. So idk, I haven't hit a wall like this in my local meta since getting consistently crushed by Eldar in the middle of 7th edition (not even with the beta dex in the middle of 8th) so I am just at somewhat of a loss right now.

In the last four or so games I have played against the faction I won 2 of them (prior to CA 2022) and then pretty much lost the last 2 (the ones after CA 2022) though one of those was by a slim margin where I actually realized I won by a single point after the fact and we just calculated points wrong. Still though, these last two games have just been so much more difficult than the ones prior to CA.

Anyway, sorry for how long this got, I know this is a small sample size and there was some pretty bad luck on both myself and my opponent's sides as well, but just any advice people could give with this matchup post CA would be appreciated!

Doing some loose theorycrafting on a list:
I'm looking at potentially running a mechanized Argent Shroud list.

I won't post the full list, but the basic idea is this:
Take 4-5 Rhinos and some Exorcists. All vehicles get hunter-killer missiles.
Cram the rhinos full of Battle Sisters with Multi-Meltas. Add in flamer Dominions to taste. Have one rhino filled with Sacresancts and a Preacher, plus a beatstick canoness and her palatine buddy for good measure.
Bring along Celestine with two hand-flamer units of Seraphim.

Turn one, march forward and unleash the heavy fire. 6+ Hunter Killer Missiles and roughly 12 Exorcist Missile Launcher shots should put dents in most armor. (Mathhammer says that the full volley should put about eighteen wounds on a knight, give or take, not factoring in acts of faith. Obviously stratagems and board conditions make it unlikely that I'll be maxing out damage, and these numbers assume I haven't been damaged yet, so practically speaking it means 'if I get first turn'.) Celestine probably starts on the board, though I might keep her in reserves if I'm worried about snipers.

More to the point, I use this first turn to maximize my map control - Everything on the board is a tank chassis at the moment, making anti-infantry fire less-than useful.

Turn two, my battle sisters get out and unload their barrage of multi-meltas. My command tank with the sacresancts + beatstick can go after any particularly hard targets, be they an objective in the center of the board.

Seraphim drop down and Dominions get out, roasting everything that I can get within flamer range. (I'll probably spend the CPs to use Deadly Descent for extra flamer shots if I'm up against a proper horde.)

From there, play out the game and see how it goes.

The main thing I think this list is lacking is D2 weapons - The Sacresancts have their maces, Celestine and Canoness can both put down reliable D2, Heavy Bolters on the Exorcists, but that's about it. When facing infantry Space Marines, I'm going to have to rely heavily on chip damage, which doesn't feel like a great plan. I've got some points wiggle room, but don't know what to spend it on - I don't want to have Heavy Bolter Retributors sitting out in the open on turn one, as they'll instantly become a fire magnet, and while our new Storm Bolters are D2, the lack of AP makes them feel like a sharp step down from the cheap-as-chips highly efficient 8th edition Storm Bolter. (Also no Storm Bolter sergeants means RIP sixty point troop squads putting out sixteen bolter shots in a turn, but that's a choice that's long been gone.)

Penitent Engines or Mortifiers would be a similarly obvious target - While a squad of Mortifiers with Buzz Blades and Heavy Bolters would provide both D2 melee and D2 shooting, they're also the only thing in my army that would have T5 and no invuln, making them easy pickings for any S5-6 mid-damage shooting that aren't great against tougher vehicles but would be wasted on squishy troops. I might run them anyways. (Paragon Warsuits have the same problem, as well as the issue of 'I don't own any Paragon Warsuits'.)

Thoughts? Am I too worried about target saturation? Am I missing an easy solution, or other obvious problems?

Waaaghpower wrote:
Doing some loose theorycrafting on a list:
I'm looking at potentially running a mechanized Argent Shroud list.

I won't post the full list, but the basic idea is this:
Take 4-5 Rhinos and some Exorcists. All vehicles get hunter-killer missiles.
Cram the rhinos full of Battle Sisters with Multi-Meltas. Add in flamer Dominions to taste. Have one rhino filled with Sacresancts and a Preacher, plus a beatstick canoness and her palatine buddy for good measure.
Bring along Celestine with two hand-flamer units of Seraphim.

Turn one, march forward and unleash the heavy fire. 6+ Hunter Killer Missiles and roughly 12 Exorcist Missile Launcher shots should put dents in most armor. (Mathhammer says that the full volley should put about eighteen wounds on a knight, give or take, not factoring in acts of faith. Obviously stratagems and board conditions make it unlikely that I'll be maxing out damage, and these numbers assume I haven't been damaged yet, so practically speaking it means 'if I get first turn'.) Celestine probably starts on the board, though I might keep her in reserves if I'm worried about snipers.

More to the point, I use this first turn to maximize my map control - Everything on the board is a tank chassis at the moment, making anti-infantry fire less-than useful.

Turn two, my battle sisters get out and unload their barrage of multi-meltas. My command tank with the sacresancts + beatstick can go after any particularly hard targets, be they an objective in the center of the board.

Seraphim drop down and Dominions get out, roasting everything that I can get within flamer range. (I'll probably spend the CPs to use Deadly Descent for extra flamer shots if I'm up against a proper horde.)

From there, play out the game and see how it goes.

The main thing I think this list is lacking is D2 weapons - The Sacresancts have their maces, Celestine and Canoness can both put down reliable D2, Heavy Bolters on the Exorcists, but that's about it. When facing infantry Space Marines, I'm going to have to rely heavily on chip damage, which doesn't feel like a great plan. I've got some points wiggle room, but don't know what to spend it on - I don't want to have Heavy Bolter Retributors sitting out in the open on turn one, as they'll instantly become a fire magnet, and while our new Storm Bolters are D2, the lack of AP makes them feel like a sharp step down from the cheap-as-chips highly efficient 8th edition Storm Bolter. (Also no Storm Bolter sergeants means RIP sixty point troop squads putting out sixteen bolter shots in a turn, but that's a choice that's long been gone.)

Penitent Engines or Mortifiers would be a similarly obvious target - While a squad of Mortifiers with Buzz Blades and Heavy Bolters would provide both D2 melee and D2 shooting, they're also the only thing in my army that would have T5 and no invuln, making them easy pickings for any S5-6 mid-damage shooting that aren't great against tougher vehicles but would be wasted on squishy troops. I might run them anyways. (Paragon Warsuits have the same problem, as well as the issue of 'I don't own any Paragon Warsuits'.)

Thoughts? Am I too worried about target saturation? Am I missing an easy solution, or other obvious problems?

Don't forget that the AS trait no longer works on the turn you disembark (the move, advance and count as stationary part anyway). GW felt the need to take that away from us.

That said, armor spam is possibly a workable concept but Exorcists are a bit pricy for it. One might not be a bad idea to give the option of non-LOS shooting (if you're willing to blow 2 CP for the privilege), but otherwise save a few points and take Immolators instead. You probably also want to be Valorous Heart rather than Argent Shroud.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Don't forget that the AS trait no longer works on the turn you disembark (the move, advance and count as stationary part anyway). GW felt the need to take that away from us.

Well that is... frustrating, absurd, and needlessly kneecaps a faction that wasn't OP to begin with. There's effectively no reason to bring AS in anything but a footslogging list, wheeee.

What about running a Minoris house with Guided by the Emperor and Shield of Aversion? (So 'free reroll' and 'Ignore AP-1'.) I like having that reroll on my MSU, and I'd get at least some of VH's durability buff.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Don't forget that the AS trait no longer works on the turn you disembark (the move, advance and count as stationary part anyway). GW felt the need to take that away from us.

Well that is... frustrating, absurd, and needlessly kneecaps a faction that wasn't OP to begin with. There's effectively no reason to bring AS in anything but a footslogging list, wheeee.

What about running a Minoris house with Guided by the Emperor and Shield of Aversion? (So 'free reroll' and 'Ignore AP-1'.) I like having that reroll on my MSU, and I'd get at least some of VH's durability buff.

These are actually the traits I use for my custom order and I have had success with them in most of my pre CA 2022 pickup games. They help things like the occasional Exorcist or Castigator be a little more relevant, and I like those models so it makes them somewhat more viable despite both being underwhelming/too epensive. I know Immolator spam was discussed previously in this thread, but its viability was questionable at best because of how we are relegated to T7 which just means even less now than it did in 8th with how lethal the game is. If we still had some T8 vehicles this would be a different story, but mechanized Sisters, while I still love, just doesn't seem to be a way to stay relevant right now.

It does just suck that we are being more and more pigeonholed into playing Bloody Rose or Martyred Lady to have a shot, which is why I am trying to make Valorous Heart work with my usual playstyle in more competitive environments. As I stated above though, the Death Guard matchup has been somewhat frustrating lately, even using things like Blessed Bolts to get those mortals through whenever I can. Things are tough right now against certain armies it seems, and while I still have a winning record with the 9th edition codex, it just seems like things are going to be more difficult going forward. I am still hopeful things will get better but at this moment I may be sticking to more narrative games for a while.

On the subject of making Valorous Heart work, I'm considering running a pure footslogging list - 100% infantry in power armor.

Again, I'm trying to plan around target saturation. If my entire army is T3 3+6++ bodies, I'll be robbing my opponent of a chance to use any anti-tank weaponry against me.

The downside is, of course, that my entire army is T3 3+6++ bodies. My longest range is a heavy bolter and while I'm highly mobile for a footslogging army, I'll still be outmaneuvered by
bikes and vehicles. A Brigade can pretty easily fill out with 15-20 MSU squads, plus characters for flavor and support. Multi-Meltas for tanks and monsters, Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolters for heavy infantry, flamers for hordes.

The question is, I guess - are our troops solid enough to build an army like this, or will we just fall apart?

Waaaghpower wrote:
On the subject of making Valorous Heart work, I'm considering running a pure footslogging list - 100% infantry in power armor.

Again, I'm trying to plan around target saturation. If my entire army is T3 3+6++ bodies, I'll be robbing my opponent of a chance to use any anti-tank weaponry against me.

The downside is, of course, that my entire army is T3 3+6++ bodies. My longest range is a heavy bolter and while I'm highly mobile for a footslogging army, I'll still be outmaneuvered by
bikes and vehicles. A Brigade can pretty easily fill out with 15-20 MSU squads, plus characters for flavor and support. Multi-Meltas for tanks and monsters, Heavy Bolters and Storm Bolters for heavy infantry, flamers for hordes.

The question is, I guess - are our troops solid enough to build an army like this, or will we just fall apart?

Other than the obvious fact of having to build and paint more basic bolter Sisters than I would ever personally like to (I have enough for a Brigade's worth of MSU Troop squads and one or two more beyond that) I can at least tell you that I did try a "board control focused VH Brigade" list with about 65 bodies plus characters against a DG player a few weeks back and had mixed results. While I did end up narrowly winning on objectives (initially there was a discrepancy in final calculation but when we re-calculated it seemd like it was a one point swing in my favor, but honestly I feel better calling it a draw with how incredibly close it was) it just didn't actually seem viable, but that could just be I did not fully commit to 100% infantry. I had an Exorcist for ignoring some LoS shooting and I think brought one other vehicle, possibly a Castigator for funsies. I also brought some basic Celestians just because, since I was expecting a relatively casual game against this guy but had trounced him in a past game so I was trying to go pretty easy in this match. Since that first game though he has consistently been bringing different subfactions and different combos that I think just outright counter what I am trying to test with most of my current lists, so that might just be skewing the results a bit.

Maybe 100+ T3 3+/6++ (maybe 5++ if you just go for an Indomitable Belief Canoness?) is actually the answer for non-Bloody Rose armies, but I can tell you from experience at about 65-70 models I was getting out-attritioned. Granted, I am trying to out-survive DG right now which I know is not a smart move lol. I did play around with a theorycrafting a few lists based on this idea, and if you include Vahl, a Canoness and Celestine and then just fill out a Brigade with 6 BSS (stock or with a special/heavy weapon each), 3 MM Rets, 2 squads of deep strikers (Seraphim/Zephyrim), some SB Dominions, a full squad of Sacresants and then a full squad of Repentia followed by additional character support like a Dogmata and then maybe a Repentia Superior (depending on the weapons in the BSS) you can get something like 80ish bodies with character support on the table. If you take out a few things here and there and rearrange then you can probably get closer to that 100 bodies mark. If we start taking out Celestine or some other character support too we probably at least get to 100 models and maybe a little over. I agree that its viability is dubious, but it may be a mission winner kind of list until it runs into a hard counter of some kind.

I might give a purely "horde" list like this a try at some point, but I do still really like our tanks and I usually play FLGS "casual competitive" games so I would need someone who is okay with me running this. If I get any results I will let you know!

Here's a spec list with 94 bodies, summarized:
Beatstick Canoness (Rapturous Blows + Righteous Rage + Blessed Blade)
Celestine
Missionary
Palatine w/ Litanies of Faith

6x Battle Sisters with a multi melta+combi melta
2x Celestian Sacresants
Celestians w/ Melta Loadout
Dialogus
Dogmata
Imagifier w/ Relic Standard (Warrior & Faithful for move, charge, and strength bonus - she runs with the sacresants)

2x Dominions with Storm Bolters
2x Seraphim, one Flamer one Melta

2x Retributors with three Heavy Bolters
2x Retributors with two Heavy Flamers

Theoretically I could drop some support characters and lean even further into the 'horde' elements, but I can't for practical reasons - I'm out of models at this point. (I don't even have enough models to run this WYSIWYG, but I can at least put this on the board with a heavy for every heavy, a special for every special, and accurate characters.)

I'm not running Repentia because without a transport their lack of armor is worrying. Even with buffs to get them up to 4++, they're just too vulnerable for comfort, and Sacresants fill a similar role but have 2+ armor and a 4++ invuln stock. Worse Wound rolls and worse AP, but better hits and far superior durability is good for me.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Here's a spec list with 94 bodies, summarized:
Beatstick Canoness (Rapturous Blows + Righteous Rage + Blessed Blade)
Celestine
Missionary
Palatine w/ Litanies of Faith

6x Battle Sisters with a multi melta+combi melta
2x Celestian Sacresants
Celestians w/ Melta Loadout
Dialogus
Dogmata
Imagifier w/ Relic Standard (Warrior & Faithful for move, charge, and strength bonus - she runs with the sacresants)

2x Dominions with Storm Bolters
2x Seraphim, one Flamer one Melta

2x Retributors with three Heavy Bolters
2x Retributors with two Heavy Flamers

Theoretically I could drop some support characters and lean even further into the 'horde' elements, but I can't for practical reasons - I'm out of models at this point. (I don't even have enough models to run this WYSIWYG, but I can at least put this on the board with a heavy for every heavy, a special for every special, and accurate characters.)

I'm not running Repentia because without a transport their lack of armor is worrying. Even with buffs to get them up to 4++, they're just too vulnerable for comfort, and Sacresants fill a similar role but have 2+ armor and a 4++ invuln stock. Worse Wound rolls and worse AP, but better hits and far superior durability is good for me.

I completely understand just not having the exact models. I definitely spent WAY too much when our new plastic kits initially came out (and continue to spend too much definitely) but for the most part I only really have one of each unit aside from BSS, 2 Rhinos, Exorcists, and Immolators as well as 4 of the Engines. I have a plethora of special and heavy weapons (about 40ish girls with a combination of SBs, HFs, Flamers, Meltas, MMs, and HBs) and about 20-25 Basic Bolter girls, then 5 Celestians along with 10 Sacresants (trying to convert another 5), 20 Seraphim, 10 Zephyrim, 14 Repentia, varous Sister Superiors and then every support character other than a Dialogus and some of the Ministorum units like Crusaders and DCA). Based on my recent count I have about 150 models not counting the tanks, my one squad of warsuits, and walkers. Plastic crack man, but even then with my versatility I still can't do EVERYTHING I want to of course.

I agree that Repentia in a list like this is probably not the way to go, and a second Sacresant squad makes more sense. I plan on getting another unit of 5 or 10 at some point, but at this point I really only have my one unit of 10 to work with. I still think MM Rets are just the way to go (even though I still love HB Rets especially in smaller games) so for a list like this I think I would just put anti-infantry weapons on the BSS and leave the Meltas on the Rets. The Imagifier and Celestians I think can also go if we are trying to be as competitive as possible (though in more casual games they would be fine), along with the Dialogus and/or Missionary. I think the Dogmata brings more to the table compared to the Dialogus, though if you wanted to bring both just to have more hymns for units and take the missionary out that would be fine too. I haven't invested in the missionary and preacher much in 9th (mostly because they are the last pewter models that I am forced to use since I do not like the Taddeus sculpt very much and I am trying to play all plastic right now) but I do think each still have their place in the army. All 3 models giving litanies out, while interesting, feels like it would have diminishing returns. Lastly I think Vahl is still mandatory for something like this, especially if you are at least going to have one MM Ret squad and to just buff the battle line in general as everything moves up.

Overall, I completely understand that this is your collection so the "less competitive" options are just part and parcel of what you have, but I do think there is an optimized way to bring a list like this. The question of it working will only be answered through testing in various games against various armies and opponents, but I do think you are on to something with us being an actual horde, even if we do not focus on the "melee" aspect. I know the answer to all of this is just "be Bloody Rose" but I have never played this army that way, and GW won't force me to start doing so now. I want my mid-range shooting backed up by some melee threats, and Emperor dammnit I will make it work post CA 2022!

Good points all around, though I disagree about the rets - Why would you take Meltas on Rets over Heavy Bolters when the army's heavy weapon distribution would be the same?

My thinking is this: Retributors ignore cover. I'd much rater have my AP-1 weapons ignoring cover, where it'll matter a *lot*, than my AP-4 weapons where most targets won't have much of a save (or will hit their invuln) anyways. The MMs do lose armorium cherub access, but they also get more splitfire and ablative wounds protecting the guns.