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Got in a game today with that list. I played against Thousand Sons, with some interesting outcomes:
We both had some gear that hard-countered each other. My DTW on a 5+ caused him serious pain, but his bolters feel purpose-built to tear apart battle sister squads, falling *right* in the sweet spot of hurting us badly without worrying about overkill. (With Celestine's aura, and on my Sacresancts, those AP-2 bolts brought me down to exactly my invuln save.)

Overall, the general theme of the army worked well - he didn't have an enormous amount of anti-tank firepower and in retrospect a heavily mechanized list would probably have wrecked him pretty hard, but the anti-tank power was all effectively wasted against me. His army was more mixed, giving me good target saturation for basically every weapon in my army.

He got turn one, but couldn't get close enough to bring his firepower to bear and only dealt some chip damage, without many models in Witchfire range to really bring out any pain.

On my turn, I advanced forward, got almost my entire army into an effective engagement range, and dealt a very solid amount of damage, wiping off a unit of Tzaangors, a Demon Prince who'd been hiding behind those Tzaangors, a Rhino, half a dozen Rubric Marines, and half-killing a Defiler. (Blessed Bolts in particular came in clutch.) The Heavy Flamers ended up being all-but useless once the tzaangors were dead, but against a different army they might have been more useful.

The board was unfortunately rather cover-light, which favored him more than me. Most of my army either ignored cover (Heavy Bolter retributors), had so much AP that cover would have been irrelevant (Melta and Multi-Melta,) or I was facing a 2+ armor save anyways because of the All is Dust rule. Meanwhile, cover would have benefitted me greatly against much of his shooting, giving me a 4+ armor save instead of a 5+ against the vast majority of his shooting.

On his turn two, he deep-struck ten terminators and a termy sorcerer into my backline, which became pretty painful. Fortunately they didn't get to charge anything. I failed to Deny the Witch pretty much everything, lost all of my sacresants to shooting, lost three battle sister squads (who all got chipped down to one model then died to morale), lost one of my HF Retributor squads (no big loss,) lost half a unit of Dominions, and some other chaff. It hurt, but wasn't painful enough to stop me.

My turn two, I killed most of his terminators with shooting, then charged in and killed all but the sorcerer thanks to my beatstick Canonness popping her Mortal Wound aura and buffing some Seraphim, as well as tying up the sorcerer in melee. My Flamer seraphim deep struck and cleared an objective of cultists, (nice,) Celestine charged a Hellbrute and whiffed her attacks, (less nice,) I popped the Defiler, I killed half of the remaining rubrics.

On turn three, it was revenge of the Deny the Witch - Unlike last turn, where I consistently whiffed my rolls, this turn I successfully denied five out of seven of his psychic tests. I lost my Seraphim, nearly all of my remaining battle sisters, and most of my Celestians, plus Celestine went down for the first time after *whiffing all her attacks again in melee*. Dammit, Celestine. In melee, the rest of the Terminators went down, but the sorcerer lived.

We were both pretty ragged at this point, but I had a big advantage on map control thanks to my high mobility and my Seraphim clearing out his cultists, so while I'd only dealt slightly more damage than him, I had a big lead in victory points.

Hitting back, I finished off the Sorcerer, all but two Rubrics, one of two Hellbrutes, (Celestine *finally* did work,) and at this point was holding three objectives to his... zero.

We called it at this point since the game had been going for almost four hours, (both of us taking lots of time to check rules and generally not in a hurry,) and I needed to go. He had a Lord on one of those hover tortillas, a Sorcerer, and a Hellbrute, and two Rubrics, with nothing left to really bring firepower against squads.

My army was ragged but still more than able to deal damage and I had serious map control - I am reasonably sure I would have tabled him by turn five, but even if I didn't, he couldn't realistically score more than five victory points a turn while I'd be getting fifteen from the mission. (The mission rules gave five for holding an objective, five for holding two, and five for holding more than the opponent.) I also had a ton of points from the 'kill as many psykers as possible' secondary objective, which I'd maxed out very quickly.

Overall takeaways:
The strategy seems to have merit. Despite getting blasted apart by his AP-2 bolters, I was still able to take a punch on the chin and come back with a large amount of firepower.

I can cut a couple characters. The battle standard was fantastic for the increased move speed, and the Strength buff was handy even if it didn't do a huge amount, (I took the relic for two abilities,) but I didn't really gain much from having three hymn-singing characters. Once my Sacresants died, (which happened on turn one, he smartly focused them down since their D2 melee weapons would have been brutal on his Rubrics and fairly bad on his terminators,) half their buffs weren't any good. The increased damage to Storm Bolters from 'Catechism of Repugnance' was alright, granting me a bit of AP and some extra wounds, but I used Blessed Bolts most of the time anyways and that ended up doing the vast majority of my damage from Storm Bolters. I could drop down to *just* a dialogus or a preacher and realistically not lose anything, giving me the points to bring another squad of Celestians or Retributors.

Seraphim being able to fire their pistols in CQC is nasty. I already knew this, but using melta to blow the head off his Sorcerer was brutal.

Speaking of which, a beatstick canoness with a support squad is *also* brutal. All those extra mortal wounds on 6s, plus her own attacks doing 3D per hit and rerolling everything? It tore through Terminators like rice paper.

When running this, remember that everything is disposable and you have no idea what will survive to the next turn. Do not rely on *anything*, because every individual squad can and will die in a matter of moments if it gets focused on. Power armor and a 5++ or a 6++ is not a substitute for real durability. Instead, bring backups on top of backups, so that even if several of your first picks get killed, you still have something you can grab from nearby and start to wreck gak.

The mobility of advance+shoot heavy weapons is awesome. Re-rolling a dice for all my MSU options is also awesome.

Cover is mandatory, and should not be shirked.

All in all, it was a really fun game! I like this list and enjoyed playing it, and would be happy to do so again, which is the most important thing at the end of the day.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Good points all around, though I disagree about the rets - Why would you take Meltas on Rets over Heavy Bolters when the army's heavy weapon distribution would be the same?

My thinking is this: Retributors ignore cover. I'd much rater have my AP-1 weapons ignoring cover, where it'll matter a *lot*, than my AP-4 weapons where most targets won't have much of a save (or will hit their invuln) anyways. The MMs do lose armorium cherub access, but they also get more splitfire and ablative wounds protecting the guns.

For the Argent Shroud army you are going for where everything can advance and shoot for no penalty (footlsogging) I see the merit of having an MSU build with plenty of MMs scattered around squads. In my experience though, despite the sound logic of having lower AP weapons ignoring cover through the Rets being more useful than MMs doing the same thing, I have just found in my meta having as many MMs as possible on the board is mandatory. If I was playing a list like this I would possibly stick a MM or Meltagun in every single BSS as well as havng the MM Rets. Remember, I have about half a dozen DG players around my area so damage 2 weapons are just so inefficient.

As for your game against TS, it definitely sounds like a really fun time! I am happy that this "horde" option worked for the most part, and I do agree that you can probably drop down a few characters in order to fit another squad of something or even a few additional MSU. Since I am trying to make a VH build work instead of AS I think I will have to take a hard look at exactly how many models I can cram in, and exactly how much board control I want to have. I agree with you completely though that "having extras of everything" is definitely the way to go. At least two units of any fully footslogging infantry squad you are bringing (Rets, Dominions, Sacresants, and of course BSS). Having all of those reserves seems to have worked well for you and I am glad you got another victory for the Orders Militant!

On my own end I had an 85-47 victory against DG today playing VH (though it was more of a mixed list with an Exorcist and Vahl in addition to a bunch of MSU and Celestine) but it was pretty much a slaughter for the servants of Nurgle, my opponent was testing somewthing out for a local tournament coming up and ended up overextending early (as well as wasting 3CP on that orbital bombardment strat which ended up killing 2 Battle Sisters). As bad as it was for him (his dice were rolling like Nurgle hated him after that bombardment failed) it was a good learning experience for the list he is trying to bring to this event in a few weeks. I am slowly figuring out how best to use VH in my games, but I will test this "horde"list sooner than later! Celestine actually rolled 2 sixes for hits and ruined his DP on turn 1 with the rest of her damage after the 4 MWs, but I have had her whiff SO often lately it's not even funny, I even used "suffer not the witch" on her just to make sure she could bring the DP down!

GFdoubles wrote:

For the Argent Shroud army you are going for where everything can advance and shoot for no penalty (footlsogging) I see the merit of having an MSU build with plenty of MMs scattered around squads. In my experience though, despite the sound logic of having lower AP weapons ignoring cover through the Rets being more useful than MMs doing the same thing, I have just found in my meta having as many MMs as possible on the board is mandatory. If I was playing a list like this I would possibly stick a MM or Meltagun in every single BSS as well as havng the MM Rets. Remember, I have about half a dozen DG players around my area so damage 2 weapons are just so inefficient.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense, especially given your meta. (Not so many DG players around me, so D2 is more viable.) Though, considering my incredibly high mobility and the fact Multi-Meltas can now shoot twice, it does look like they're more viable in TAC. You're only getting 50% more shots with a heavy bolter, and I don't care as much about range, so the only real downside is the extra 10ppm. I certainly would have benefited having fewer attacks that wound on 2s and bring him down to invulns.

As for your game against TS, it definitely sounds like a really fun time! I am happy that this "horde" option worked for the most part, and I do agree that you can probably drop down a few characters in order to fit another squad of something or even a few additional MSU. Since I am trying to make a VH build work instead of AS I think I will have to take a hard look at exactly how many models I can cram in, and exactly how much board control I want to have. I agree with you completely though that "having extras of everything" is definitely the way to go. At least two units of any fully footslogging infantry squad you are bringing (Rets, Dominions, Sacresants, and of course BSS). Having all of those reserves seems to have worked well for you and I am glad you got another victory for the Orders Militant!

I definitely didn't play perfectly - on turn two I forgot my Priest could throw out mortal wounds (which would have been three automatically against chaos) and instead just blew his hymn on giving himself +1 attack since all the nearby units had died. That and some poor unit placement so I wasn't getting perfect auras - though my opponent also made some mistakes that put us on equal footing, forgetting to use all his Kabbalite Points (or whatever they're called?) on the first couple turns, which could potentially have put a few extra mortal wounds on me. It was a really good learning game.

On my own end I had an 85-47 victory against DG today playing VH (though it was more of a mixed list with an Exorcist and Vahl in addition to a bunch of MSU and Celestine) but it was pretty much a slaughter for the servants of Nurgle, my opponent was testing somewthing out for a local tournament coming up and ended up overextending early (as well as wasting 3CP on that orbital bombardment strat which ended up killing 2 Battle Sisters). As bad as it was for him (his dice were rolling like Nurgle hated him after that bombardment failed) it was a good learning experience for the list he is trying to bring to this event in a few weeks. I am slowly figuring out how best to use VH in my games, but I will test this "horde"list sooner than later! Celestine actually rolled 2 sixes for hits and ruined his DP on turn 1 with the rest of her damage after the 4 MWs, but I have had her whiff SO often lately it's not even funny, I even used "suffer not the witch" on her just to make sure she could bring the DP down!

One exorcist does sound like a great addition if you can find some LOS blocking terrain to hide it behind - and it sounds like we're both getting bad Celestine luck lately. I don't own Vahl, but looking at her base stats she seems overpriced for the buffs she gives and damage she puts out, only slightly outperforming Celestine at the cost of major mobility, and not providing much for unit support that a Cannoness and Palatine can bring. (Plus the Cannoness is a beatstick in her own right, downright scary for 85 points.)
I'm assuming I'm missing something about her that pushes her over the edge - how do you run her?

I also think this horde list would work well in a lot of places where my list suffered. -1 to hit on heavy weapons isn't terrible so you're mostly losing out on the rerolls and the ability to advance, but in exchange the durability buff is epic - I'd have suffered far, far fewer wounds today if I was running 4+ saves against his guns instead of 5+, and those mortal wounds he hit me with were brutal; getting an extra 5+ FNP would really have helped. I can see it being just as viable, if you tailor a bit towards the fact that you won't be as mobile. (So, maybe bringing all Meltaguns if you have a unit you plan on advancing for example.)

Yea I am definitely interested in trying a full horde out in VH and seeing exactly how it plays. In the game against DG today I actually had a Rapturous Blows Canoness with the extra durability of Impervious to Pain and the Surplice of St Istalea so my plan was to throw her into melee with either the Sacreants or my Repentia to get some mileage out of the mortal wounds from her miraculous ability (which you have seen for yourself is incredibly powerful). But she really was not even needed with the way things went, and honestly she was a bit out of position most of the game anyway, so she just became an extra source of rerolls for a squad of MM Rets once Vahl started moving up. I definitely need to work on my placement too and exactly how to maximize certain character buffs here and there, I am in no way a pefect player either despite being in this game since the end of 5th edition!

As for your question about Vahl, in terms of the most competitive of lists (especially in non Bloody Rose armies) I think she is almost mandatory, though I completely understand your feelings on her. Rerolling ALL Hits and Wounds on any one unit (even if it is just herself) is just a massive damage increase. I normally give it to Paragon Warsuits (when I do bring them in more casual games) or MM Rets and almost always they just obliterate something that needs to die like a PBC or other tough target even with a -1 to hit from moving or because of dense cover or something. Then she brings her own shooting of an anti-infantry "better" heavy bolter and then some anti-tank Exorcist-like missiles (or 2d6 frag missiles if you need to clear an objective). Then her melee is just brutal and her ability to fight twice will just decimate most things while she is still durable enough to survive most things (though I have definitely overcommitted her in a few games recently and I am realizing she definitely needs to be a little more conservative). While her going up to 280 hurts a bit and makes her less efficient, at 265 she was almost borderline broken (I think 270-275 would have been a sweet spot for her).

I usually run her as a part of a "second wave" moving up behind Sacresants, MM Rets, and/or a big blob of 20 Battle Sisters, giving full rerolls to whoever is going to need it most and then using her Canoness/Palatine aura to help everyone else around her out. Once Dominions and BSS start going down she bullies the center along with Sacresants and sometimes Celestine and just takes care of business, clearing most central objectives easily.

There is no doubt that, with how good she was for a while, I have misplayed her in some post CA 2022 games, thinking she can handle certain things almost single-handedly, but I guess that gives you a sense of just how strong she can be and in fact was prior to the slight points nerf. I DO NOT LIKE having to run special characters (I want my fluffy Canoness and Palatine combo) but while I won't play Bloody Rose, I understand that Vahl is just "necessary" for us (and she is probably the coolest Warsuit model).

Nothing wrong with not wanting to play her or thinking she isn't worth her points, but I think every game she has made her points back and then some through buffs on key units or by just wiping out a DP, almost killing a PBC by herself with her missiles, wiping squads of Plague Marines, Blighthaulers, Bloatdrones, Deathshrouds, and of course bringing down Redemptor Dreadnoughts, and a plethora of other hard targets. She has been useful in my games against Marines, Custodes, Necrons, and she wiped out several Tyranid nasties (Hive Tyrants, Swarmlords, etc.) prior to the Crusher Stampede thing. She even solo'd Gulliman with no buffs. There are plenty of times it just wasn't enough, but she is always useful.

GFdoubles wrote:

As for your question about Vahl, in terms of the most competitive of lists (especially in non Bloody Rose armies) I think she is almost mandatory, though I completely understand your feelings on her. Rerolling ALL Hits and Wounds on any one unit (even if it is just herself) is just a massive damage increase. I normally give it to Paragon Warsuits (when I do bring them in more casual games) or MM Rets and almost always they just obliterate something that needs to die like a PBC or other tough target even with a -1 to hit from moving or because of dense cover or something.

This is actually why I don't see her as particularly useful in my list - I'm running MSU that has no particular need for those rerolls. My army already has rerolls built in, and by design I've ensured that I don't have any major targets that could become obvious targets for focus fire. (If I had, for example, a unit of Warsuits they would have immediately eaten two lascannons, a defiler cannon, and a couple missile launchers, and some other miscellaneous anti-tank fire which instead had to get wasted against infantry - and if I had a big blob of sisters, I'd get torn apart by Blast weapons and the 'Soul Reap' stratagem, doubling his number of shots on his Soulreaper Cannons.) The best case scenario in a list I'd consider would be three multi-meltas and an armorium cherub in a unit of Retributors, where Vahl's buff would be pretty potent, but for the cost of Vahl I could also just bring two more squads of those Retributors and still have points leftover - though in practice I'm more likely to take *two* Multi Meltas and a cherub, and bring more squads.

I can see the utility if I brought a heavily mechanized army - if I'm storming a bunch of Rhinos, Mortifiers, and Warsuits up the board, with beefy units that didn't already have rerolls rolling inside the tanks ready to pop out and shoot, it'd be a different story.

That said, I apparently fethed up my list. I forgot to update Battlescribe when the points updates came out; after updating I realized I was sixty points over. I'm clueless why Dominions went up two whole points per model; the scout move is not worth two points more than Ignores Cover on the retributors, and there's very little reason to spam any of their special weapons except for Storm Bolters, specifically just to use the Blessed Bolts stratagem. The sacresants could make more sense - but I wouldn't know, because mine got obliterated before they could fight. (Also Armorium Cherbus costing 10 points seems a bit silly - that's as much as an additional heavy weapon in the squad.) I'll have to drop those characters just to make the list legal, though I'm considering swapping out a squad of Dominions for more Retributors now that I'm overspending my points on them anyways.

Waaaghpower wrote:

GFdoubles wrote:

As for your question about Vahl, in terms of the most competitive of lists (especially in non Bloody Rose armies) I think she is almost mandatory, though I completely understand your feelings on her. Rerolling ALL Hits and Wounds on any one unit (even if it is just herself) is just a massive damage increase. I normally give it to Paragon Warsuits (when I do bring them in more casual games) or MM Rets and almost always they just obliterate something that needs to die like a PBC or other tough target even with a -1 to hit from moving or because of dense cover or something.

This is actually why I don't see her as particularly useful in my list - I'm running MSU that has no particular need for those rerolls. My army already has rerolls built in, and by design I've ensured that I don't have any major targets that could become obvious targets for focus fire. (If I had, for example, a unit of Warsuits they would have immediately eaten two lascannons, a defiler cannon, and a couple missile launchers, and some other miscellaneous anti-tank fire which instead had to get wasted against infantry - and if I had a big blob of sisters, I'd get torn apart by Blast weapons and the 'Soul Reap' stratagem, doubling his number of shots on his Soulreaper Cannons.) The best case scenario in a list I'd consider would be three multi-meltas and an armorium cherub in a unit of Retributors, where Vahl's buff would be pretty potent, but for the cost of Vahl I could also just bring two more squads of those Retributors and still have points leftover - though in practice I'm more likely to take *two* Multi Meltas and a cherub, and bring more squads.

I can see the utility if I brought a heavily mechanized army - if I'm storming a bunch of Rhinos, Mortifiers, and Warsuits up the board, with beefy units that didn't already have rerolls rolling inside the tanks ready to pop out and shoot, it'd be a different story.

That said, I apparently fethed up my list. I forgot to update Battlescribe when the points updates came out; after updating I realized I was sixty points over. I'm clueless why Dominions went up two whole points per model; the scout move is not worth two points more than Ignores Cover on the retributors, and there's very little reason to spam any of their special weapons except for Storm Bolters, specifically just to use the Blessed Bolts stratagem. The sacresants could make more sense - but I wouldn't know, because mine got obliterated before they could fight. (Also Armorium Cherbus costing 10 points seems a bit silly - that's as much as an additional heavy weapon in the squad.) I'll have to drop those characters just to make the list legal, though I'm considering swapping out a squad of Dominions for more Retributors now that I'm overspending my points on them anyways.

I can definitely see Vahl being less useul in your army, this is why she is not as mandatory in most Bloody Rose lists since most of the units (Repentia especially) have some form of built-in rerolls already, and AS rerolling a hit and wound in each MSU squad ends up being almost as good and it frees you up to bring more units. I do think she will remain a mainstay for the faction for a while though, she is pretty much what Gulliman used to be Ultramarines, only much better with buffs and equally as fighty/durable for less points.

As for the points changes, yea...this is what the community has been saying since things were leaked. Dominions at 14 points makes zero sense to me, 12 was the perfect spot for them, worth it to bring a unit or 2 for the scout move in a transport (or on foot) and Blessed Bolts but not mandatory and reliant on CP enough that they were not an auto-include. 14 points just makes them fit into the " you probably only ever want one squad" category. Sacresants going up to 16 I saw coming, but 15 would have been fine I think, they are GOOD but they are not truly game breaking, even if you bring 30 of them. The only issue is the Bodyguard rule, and if that does get addressed at some point they need to go to at least 15 if not back to 14. I think if we had gotten some meaningful points buffs, these two nerfs in particular (in addition to the 15 point hike on Vahl that is competely reasonable but still rough for us) just wouldn't hurt as much. I am glad Warsuits, Exorcists, and Immolators went down a little, but each of those units really needed at least a 15 point drop (honestly I think the Warsuits should just be a flat 60 and then with the MMs 70 and then they will be average at least). I am still perplexed by why that Exorcist Missile Launcher is 30 points while the strength 9 battle cannon is 5. Even with the more reliable shot number, I think the Missile Launcher should just be 15 or 20 at most ( especially since it lost AP -3 for NO reason), meaning the Exorcist should be 155-160 maximum. The Immolator is just in a tough spot right now, maybe if it was 95 or 100 points base (105-110 with the flamers and then more with the MMs) it would be at least worth a niche look, but yea, the three "buffs" we got were not the best of bones to be thrown for what we got hit with. It's a shame because I really LOVE our motor pool and I have always been a fan of playing mechanized Sisters.

As you can tell the community is pretty salty about what happened in CA 2022. Personally my biggest pet peeve is the Exorcist, but I just love that tank and that model and if it just remained AP -3 missiles at the 170 it is right now I think it would be almost perfect (give or take the ignore LoS stratagem going down to 1CP). It's another reason why we are just in a rough place right now relative to where we were before CA, though still strong enough to go toe to toe with some of the best factions.

Finally, something to look into is playing with the new Nachmund Mission Pack. Some of those Missions do add a few twists that make it interesting and slightly change the way you play. I have been playing a few ever since CA dropped and they are different enough where I do think some of my initial losses were reacquainting myself with the mission and how the primary is now 4/8/12 points a turn instead of 5/10/15, with extra "primary points" avilable by doing like a "4th secondary objective" each turn. It's interesting and takes some getting used to, so I would suggest getting your feet wet with it as soon as you can since I think more and more people who play matched play will end up gravitating toward those missions.

Hello,

I haven't played 40k since the last faq2022 and therefore I am not aware of how sister is played as of now. Before, I was playing mixed order (Ebon Chalice and Argent Shroud), but it's not a possibily anymore so I am a bit lost.

I have to build a 1500 points list tomorrow to play against a Tau and I am totaly lost on what to do, adding the fact that Tau have a new codex that I don't master at all.

If you had any general (or specific) adivces on a list or direction to take, I would be glad.

I was thinking either :

- Full Bloody Rose with Repentias and Sacrescants but I have merely played one or two game in BR since 8th so I don't know how to play it. Futhermore, I fear that I won't have the suficient firepower to kill big Tau mech and that my rhino transporting the repentias will be wrecked instantly by his firepower.

- Otherwise I was thinking of a list consisting in Argent Shrourd with Pen Engine (or Morti) and Arcos to do close combat.

Thanks you in advance!

If you are not playing Chapter Approved: War Zone Nachmund Grand Tournament Mission Pack rules, you are free to use two Orders in your list.

If you are, I would either play what you know, which an Argent Shroud list, or go counter T'au and bring a Valorous Heart list. Tau have lots of AP -1 and AP -2 in their weapons, which VH will help mitigate.

Thanks you for your quick answer!

I was thinking of heavy infantry VH list but I fear that it will lack the base power and lethality, in so much that many units won't get the bonus (all the named HQ, all the ministorum unit (pen engine, arcos, etc.). I don't feel like it would be right to build a VH list with out taking into account the lost of good Ranged Bonus (from AS) or good Close Combat (frome BR).

God, I would have like to have the vanilla deadly descent strat to shoot babies melta at sufficient range when deep striking. Would have been a blast against Tau.

So I can make a new thread on this if people prefer. But I saw on a different post on here some discussion about an Adepta Sororitas codex 2.0, similar to the Space Marine 2.0 codex that is likely coming either later this year or early 2023. Nothing confirmed of course, just some discussion.

How likely do we think this is? For the first time we actually got a book relative early in the edition and Novitiates are not actually in the codex still despite having a datasheet. Plus, I could see them possibly compiling the various supplements (Bloody Rose, OoML) into a second codex similar to what they did with Space Marines and Chaos on 8th. Now I fully expect this, if it does happen, to occur right before "10th" drops because we still have to be the butt of that joke, but I would definitely take a revamped codex in the next year or so. It would give them a chance to possibly fix some issues like the Tale of the Stoic, Devastating Refrain (make it 1CP), and maybe even a few unit stats/points.

The only reason why I'm even giving this any thought is that we are now sort of the "poster girls" of this edition so we may actually get some space marine level treatment.

GFdoubles wrote:
So I can make a new thread on this if people prefer. But I saw on a different post on here some discussion about an Adepta Sororitas codex 2.0, similar to the Space Marine 2.0 codex that is likely coming either later this year or early 2023. Nothing confirmed of course, just some discussion.

How likely do we think this is? For the first time we actually got a book relative early in the edition and Novitiates are not actually in the codex still despite having a datasheet. Plus, I could see them possibly compiling the various supplements (Bloody Rose, OoML) into a second codex similar to what they did with Space Marines and Chaos on 8th. Now I fully expect this, if it does happen, to occur right before "10th" drops because we still have to be the butt of that joke, but I would definitely take a revamped codex in the next year or so. It would give them a chance to possibly fix some issues like the Tale of the Stoic, Devastating Refrain (make it 1CP), and maybe even a few unit stats/points.

The only reason why I'm even giving this any thought is that we are now sort of the "poster girls" of this edition so we may actually get some space marine level treatment.

Not likely.

 deviantduck wrote:

GFdoubles wrote:
So I can make a new thread on this if people prefer. But I saw on a different post on here some discussion about an Adepta Sororitas codex 2.0, similar to the Space Marine 2.0 codex that is likely coming either later this year or early 2023. Nothing confirmed of course, just some discussion.

How likely do we think this is? For the first time we actually got a book relative early in the edition and Novitiates are not actually in the codex still despite having a datasheet. Plus, I could see them possibly compiling the various supplements (Bloody Rose, OoML) into a second codex similar to what they did with Space Marines and Chaos on 8th. Now I fully expect this, if it does happen, to occur right before "10th" drops because we still have to be the butt of that joke, but I would definitely take a revamped codex in the next year or so. It would give them a chance to possibly fix some issues like the Tale of the Stoic, Devastating Refrain (make it 1CP), and maybe even a few unit stats/points.

The only reason why I'm even giving this any thought is that we are now sort of the "poster girls" of this edition so we may actually get some space marine level treatment.

Not likely.

I am in agreement that it is probably a pipedream, but we also never expected to be in plastic 4 years ago so...I am going to hold out some hope. It's really just the Novitiates datatsheet not being in the book that makes me think that at some point we will see at least some kind of reprint with that datsheet and maybe some of the supplement rules in there. I am definitely hoping for at least supplement rules for all 6 Major Orders (similar to the Marine supplements) as something like Sacred Rose really needs a glow up, and with all of the hits everything else has taken, Ebon Chalice and Argent Shroud could use some help too! Valorous Heart would be some icing on the cake!

It just sucks that for the forseeable future we will be playing catch up to the rest of the power creep until GW just nerfs/buffs everything that needs to be nerfed/buffed to rebalance everything (but then fail to balance what actually needs to be balanced). But hey, we had several months in the sun so I am glad that happened!

So now that it has been a month or two with the CA changes, does anyone want to take a stab at making an updated unit review list, or just taking a stab at the state of the army on the whole as of this moment? I know originally on this thread there were some nice lists detailing each unit and how viable it was. Now that it has been almost 10 months since release and the game has undulated in power creep and general matched play rules changes like War Zone Nachmund, anyone want to give it a go?

Personally I have gotten about 5 games in since CA, some normal 2k ones and other smaller games too. While my opponents are my local FLGS crew (so a wide variety of newer and moderately experienced players) I have actually had success in almost every game since CA except one against DG where I just got absolutely trounced due to not playing the mission well and definitely some errors on my part.

Many of the tier lists I am seeing post CA still put us in the mid-part of A tier too, so while I don't feel qualified to make an updated review of the codex along with the supplements (I don't play Bloody Rose or OoML) I wanted to see what the feelings are on here at this point. I know we got hit pretty hard, but other than a slightly more uphill battle against certain armies, it feels like we are still in an okay place.

Granted I personally have only played DG, IG, DA, and Orks since CA, so I know those are relatively tame matchups. I expect to be playing Custodes and Tau soon though, so I am sure I will feel the pain when I do!

Having hit a tournament in the meantime I absolutely outplayed a tau player to an 9-11 loss with OoML they are so far ahead in terms of power as is crusher stampede.

Evaluating units is very strategy dependent and dependent on whether the WTC FAQ is in effect (no battle sanctum).

I would also note that the biggest list building change is a move to a brigade now we don't have multi subfaction this means I assume a list wants 3 HQ and 1 elite character (as you don't want to give 15 for assassinate) (although i appreciate some players may not build to this it does max out your CP as a benefit)

OoML - advantages Leap of faith is an auto 12 VP/3 decent strats/broken MW spam cannoness/Junith - weak order trait

BR - advantages best order trait for damage output - disadvantages - list building restrictions to access supplement mean a 4th hq or no vahl/triumph/hospitallier even if you build to that the wl traits and relics are situational and the strats at best are very situational so your probably best ignoring the supplement. Other disadvantage doesn't help with the missions and shooting

VH - Survivable objective/board control build- looking at infantry spam but boosts everything except repentia

The rest of orders are not quite as competative
I rate these within faction not vs other factions


HQ Slot 1 you should take 1 of these three

Triumph (S) - your taking this to build to leap of faith and nothing else can replace it

Vahl (A) - A little over costed but very powerful as a buffer for a grab the centre investigate signals army

Celestine (B+) - A beat stick for an msu build efficient

Hq slot 2 with tau and the current meta you need Blinding Radiance

Canoness Ooml (S)- the MW sword is broken against anything except crusher stampede

Canoness other order (B+)- slightly more powerful than palatine

Palatine (B+) - cheaper than Canoness

Hq slot 3 free choice

Junith (A) - pretty good and doesn't consume your CP but OoML only held back by being a little more expensive and the cover buff being wholly within

Palatine (B+) - if your taking this you've already taken a cannoness

Ephrael (C+) - just not synergistic with the army but ok in its own right

Missionary (A/E) - do you have a battle sanctum if yes sit him in it all game, if not he's terrible

Second choice from HQ slot 1 (E) - too expensive

Troop (probably taking 3 of each in a brigade 2 of each in a battalion)

Novitiates (S BR/ A other orders) - broken in BR and still really strong in other orders if you can buff them. Only Downside is you have to take a battle sister squad for each. take the reroll banner and PS if BR

Battle sister (B) - ok my preferred build is Inferno pistols on sgt but multimeltas are also ok

El Characters

Hospitaller (A) - survivability is really strong in the meta and the fnp effecting ministorum infantry combos well with the triumph - less useful in a spread out army or with Vahl

Preacher (A) - still hyper efficient if it wasn't for assassinate would be an auto-include still a viable choice if you have a battle sanctum and don't want to waste an hq slot on a Missionary

Repentia superior (A/C)- if your BR and taking multiple large Repentia blobs this is an auto-include - if your are taking 1 repentia coming in from reserves and two min squads not worth it

Imagifier (B) - +1 S is really variable based on your opponent's list and we have lots of ways to reroll charges

Dogmata (D) - I know some might argue but OoML can make anything obsec with a strat and our main problem is survivability on that objective its not that its truly terrible its just that the other choices are better(+ i am assuming taking 6 obsec units in the first place)

Dialogus (F) - the only reason to take this was to extend Indomitable Belief to other subfactions now has no role

Aestred (F)- bad

Elite non characters
Repentia (S) - 3 Big blobs is viable in BR but my preference is for 1 big blob from reserve and two min squads in OoML

Crusader (A) - so efficient pts wise

Celestian Sacresants (A BR or Vahl/B other orders + builds)- are they good in terms of what they do yes especially in BR but stock they are not that great as melee for their cost so need Vahl/BR for melee competativeness. BG is powerful though so will see play in other builds.

Celestian Squad (B) - often don't get a look because of Sacresants but if what you want is a cheap bodyguard unit they are just as viable but you won't spam them

Arco Flagellants (B) - need a strat to be competive therefore limited to 1

Death cult assassin (D) - glass cannons with no easy way to get them to target or improve charges from reserve pts efficient if they do make it (but they wont)

Paragon warsuits (E) - they remind me of early primaris you can keep buffing them GW but they are just not competitive when the rest of your army are 1W models. they just have targets painted on them.

FA

Seraphim (B) - vanilla good for objectives- melta needs to start deployed but can serve the purpose of grabbing that more distant objective early and flamer can be strong but is a CP sink

Zephyrim (B) - I want to like the Zephyrim but in 1/3 of games they come down fail the charge and sit like lemmings waiting to be shot they also output less damage against a lot of targets than a seraphim flamer squad firing twice

Dominions (B) first unit C thereafter - overcosted, nice strat 1 of at most

Hv

Retributor (A VH, Ooml/B BR) - despite nerf multimelta and heavy flamer are both strong choices from reserves but millage varies on the Multimelta variant with VH able to shoot on 3+ with its strat and Ooml able to fire when killed on a 4+ using one of their strats still able to get value BR will favour flamers that don't role to hit

Mortifier (B+) - shine metal distractions to fill out slots and die T1

Penitent engine (B) - mildly worse in most settings but on certain maps there's value in a t1 charge. Also 5pts cheaper.

Exorcist (D+) - not efficient enough to spam and if you only take 1 will be shot off the table too easily. You can arguably make a case for devastating refrain for non LOS but its so CP intensive

Castigator (E) - not efficient enough to spam and if you only take 1 will be shot off the table too easily

Transport

Rhino/immolator (B) - there's always uses for transports but they're not core to our lists

Fortification

Battle sanctum (A/U) - outside of OoML I'm taking it for leap of faith only problem is WTC faq bans fortifications sometimes making it not an option

U02dah4 wrote:
Having hit a tournament in the meantime I absolutely outplayed a tau player to an 9-11 loss with OoML they are so far ahead in terms of power as is crusher stampede.

Evaluating units is very strategy dependent and dependent on whether the WTC FAQ is in effect (no battle sanctum).

I would also note that the biggest list building change is a move to a brigade now we don't have multi subfaction this means I assume a list wants 3 HQ and 1 elite character (as you don't want to give 15 for assassinate) (although i appreciate some players may not build to this it does max out your CP as a benefit)

OoML - advantages Leap of faith is an auto 12 VP/3 decent strats/broken MW spam cannoness/Junith - weak order trait

BR - advantages best order trait for damage output - disadvantages - list building restrictions to access supplement mean a 4th hq or no vahl/triumph/hospitallier even if you build to that the wl traits and relics are situational and the strats at best are very situational so your probably best ignoring the supplement. Other disadvantage doesn't help with the missions and shooting

VH - Survivable objective/board control build- looking at infantry spam but boosts everything except repentia

The rest of orders are not quite as competative

Thanks for the insights into the meta and your unit review! Sorry to hear about your loss against Tau, that's honestly the worst part about where 9th has been in the tournament scene since Dark Eldar dropped, even the best players piloting good armies have difficulty beating more average players playing the absolutely best armies. Maybe GW will adress this at some point soon (but it probably won't be enough as usual).

As for your unit review, thanks so much for giving us a current roadmap! I still primarily build battalions because I have found success with running Vahl and Celestine together, and a Brigade just doesn't work for that points wise usually. However, I am trying to make VH work still, so will try to build more Brigades and see how it goes. I still like the solo Exorcist just to give the army the option for ignoring LoS shooting even if it is just once at the start or even toward the end when you need to get something off a key objective. I have been bringing 2 squads of MM Rets and finding success with them for the most part (though one squad usually dies quickly to ignoring LoS shooting regardless of what I do aside from Strategic Reserve). I try to keep as much CP as possible, and have found limited success using Sacred Burden for 1CP on my Sacresant unit to give them Hand and Passion for exploding 6s to help their non BR damage output. I try to never enter a game with less than 10 with how CP hungry we always are (even then it usually isn't enough), so I usually don't want to put anything in Strategic Reserve other than a Ret or Dominion Squad at most. I have taken Rhinos for Repentia and even tried a Dominion/Ret Rhino to get them into the midfield behind obscuring, only for them to get shot to pieces because of FP Manticores and other ignoring LoS stuff. As for Blinding Radiance, I actually used to take it when the codex first dropped, but I have mostly been going with Emperor's Grace lately to stop rerolls since Custodes have found such success with it. But in general I am just bad at popping those Miraculous Abilities. I always feel strapped for MD's and if it isn't a "2" or "3" I would rather save the die for a key 4++ or morale or damage. I know with OoML this would not be an issue but I still want to play non BR and non OoML so I am determined to make one of the other Orders work, and VH is definitely more my shooty/board control playstyle.

Lastly, I still don't have any Novitiates unfortunately and didn't really plan on getting more than one squad, but maybe I will pick up two now instead (once the rest of my backlog is complete). I usually just go MSU builds but I would be willing to try 4 BSS and 2 Novitiates all pretty much stock (maybe a banner on one of the Novitiates squads at most).

Regardless, there is a bunch to consider with how CA has affected us and whee the meta currently is. I expect to only be attending very local FLGS tournaments for the forseeable future, but I used to place either 2nd or 3rd most of the time with my lists and I want to reasonably be able to do that again with the new kinds of lists we have to bring (non-BR and OoML of course, since I prefer VH, EC, and AS).

Thanks again for this!

The CP hunger was part of the reason for my shift to brigade from two detatchments the other being the loss of subfaction and that I was meeting most of the requirements before

MD are a limited resource and I wouldn't use it every game especially if you don't have triumph/battle sanctum but being hit on 4's vs 3's is a 25% reduction and probably makes more difference across an entire round of tau shooting than that key save later

I can't recommend melee novitiates enough but if you are unsure try 1 and see how they are. I would recommend the Banner though especially given they get +1 A on the charge (although once in combat he's the first I remove)

The Art of War guys did an interesting podcast episode on a VH build to deal with the current meta and ended up at something like:

Vahl
Canoness with grace
2x5 Battle Sisters
2x10 Novitiates
Hospitaller
Dogmata
28 Sacresants
2x5 MM Retributors
Exorcist
6 Seraphim
Kyria Draxis
2 Rhinos (or 1 and a Sanctum)

Don't have the Sacresants needed but going to try proxying this list next weekend if I can.

 Dendarien wrote:
The Art of War guys did an interesting podcast episode on a VH build to deal with the current meta and ended up at something like:

Vahl
Canoness with grace
2x5 Battle Sisters
2x10 Novitiates
Hospitaller
Dogmata
28 Sacresants
2x5 MM Retributors
Exorcist
6 Seraphim
Kyria Draxis
2 Rhinos (or 1 and a Sanctum)

Don't have the Sacresants needed but going to try proxying this list next weekend if I can.

Definitely let us know how your proxying goes if you are able to make it happen! After I complete my current projects I definitely want to get 10 more Sacresants and at least one Novitiate Box so maybe I will try out a slightly watered down version of this list (since I will primarily be going against a local meta in my tourneys) and I know that my Tau players are mostly Kroot builds with a few supporting Skyrays/Hammerheads and then one or two Custodes. I am never going to fully meta chase of course, but I would like to make sure my collection "always has options" so I can stay competitive with at least my FLGS crew. Most of them are more casual players but there are definitely a few WAAC guys that come around especially for the tournaments of course. I doubt I would include Draxis, but I understand needing a psyker, as our own psychic protection is somewhat meh unless you build for it or just bank on a bunch of 5+ DTW rolls every phase after taking the sacred rite against TS or GK.

I don't know we deny all powers on 6+

If you take triumph you also get a single 5+ deny

We also have deny strat

and I'd consider the null rod in a BR list ( assuming you take beneficence)

Not reliable but better than a lot of armies

GFdoubles wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:
The Art of War guys did an interesting podcast episode on a VH build to deal with the current meta and ended up at something like:

Vahl
Canoness with grace
2x5 Battle Sisters
2x10 Novitiates
Hospitaller
Dogmata
28 Sacresants
2x5 MM Retributors
Exorcist
6 Seraphim
Kyria Draxis
2 Rhinos (or 1 and a Sanctum)

Don't have the Sacresants needed but going to try proxying this list next weekend if I can.

Definitely let us know how your proxying goes if you are able to make it happen! After I complete my current projects I definitely want to get 10 more Sacresants and at least one Novitiate Box so maybe I will try out a slightly watered down version of this list (since I will primarily be going against a local meta in my tourneys) and I know that my Tau players are mostly Kroot builds with a few supporting Skyrays/Hammerheads and then one or two Custodes. I am never going to fully meta chase of course, but I would like to make sure my collection "always has options" so I can stay competitive with at least my FLGS crew. Most of them are more casual players but there are definitely a few WAAC guys that come around especially for the tournaments of course. I doubt I would include Draxis, but I understand needing a psyker, as our own psychic protection is somewhat meh unless you build for it or just bank on a bunch of 5+ DTW rolls every phase after taking the sacred rite against TS or GK.

I could have done better with detailing the characters, but one piece of tech in here is the psychic immunity hymn on the dogmata. Draxis is more in the list to bring fights last and mental interrogation.

U02dah4 wrote:
I don't know we deny all powers on 6+

If you take triumph you also get a single 5+ deny

We also have deny strat

and I'd consider the null rod in a BR list ( assuming you take beneficence)

Not reliable but better than a lot of armies

I believe that if you give the Triumph a WL trait it denies on a 3+ twice per turn.

U02dah4 wrote:
I don't know we deny all powers on 6+

If you take triumph you also get a single 5+ deny

We also have deny strat

and I'd consider the null rod in a BR list ( assuming you take beneficence)

Not reliable but better than a lot of armies

It's that reliability that I was referring to. Our best chance is a 50/50 shot for a CP which while not bad isn't exactly stellar for an entire faction that abhors psykers. The auto deny on 6 is way better than what we had in the 8th dex though, and the ability to make that a 5 plus the Rod and Triumph's WT is definitely better than plenty of armies as you say. But unless you focus on it at least a bit like the Dogmata with the psychic immunity hymn or the sacred rite, its something that I am usually okay with being a 1/6 chance each turn. If you run into TS or GK or something then just take the sacred rite and at least you have a good chance between that and the strat to spoil their day.

As I said, I am going to try a more "budget" version of that list Art of War cooked up and if the actual one gets some results or is worth taking a look at I hope to hear about it in here! I will post about my own experience if I actually get a game in with my version!

At the end of the day I am just a purist when it comes to our army, so I try to avoid taking Inquisitors or anything non Adepta Sororitas/Ministorum. I can usually get away with that for my local FLGS tourneys.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I don't know we deny all powers on 6+

If you take triumph you also get a single 5+ deny

We also have deny strat

and I'd consider the null rod in a BR list ( assuming you take beneficence)

Not reliable but better than a lot of armies

I believe that if you give the Triumph a WL trait it denies on a 3+ twice per turn.

That's not how that rule works, sadly. The Shield of Faith rule only denies on an *unmodified* roll (or if you roll higher than the test) and the Warlord trait gives a +3 to Deny rolls and an extra DTW attempt. One of Triumph's relics gives all the sacred rites to the bearer, so in effect you do get her '5 or 6' result, and the +3 is only marginally useful. While the 5+ sacred rite is active, the warlord trait only really helps in the specific case of 'your opponent rolled very low for their psychic test, and you rolled a 3 or 4 to Deny the Witch'. Without the sacred rite active, (Say, you took enough wounds to lose a relic and removed that one, and you don't have the armywide rite,) then the Warlord Trait is more useful, in that it buffs 5s as well, but for the most part the use cases overlap. The second deny-the-witch roll is much more relevant than the +3 when you've got the Sacred Rite active.

New tier list? I thought you'd never ask! I love doing these, if for no other reason than as a thought exercise for myself. Here's how I think Sisters units stack up in our new Nachmund season:

Morvenn Vahl: S tier: Even with her higher points cost, she's way too good to leave out of a list. I suppose she's not a total auto-include if there's some specific thing you're trying to achieve with a different combination of HQs though, or if you wanted to use the Bloody Rose supplement for some reason.

Canoness: A tier: Now that we have a couple of Order-specific supplements, Canonesses have more options than ever. Martyred Lady always should take one with the awesome sword, and other orders can make at least decent use of one.

Palatine: B tier: Still playing second fiddle to the Canoness, at least she's still a cheap caddy for Blessings. If you aren't running Morvenn, having a Canoness and Palatine for their buffs is a decent alternative.

Junith Eruita: B tier: I still defend this character for Martyred Lady lists. It's probably not too difficult to keep a Sacresant unit or two wholly within her cover bubble to take advantage of that. She can also do bodyguard tricks with them of course.

Missionary: D tier: There's still very little reason to take one of these. Take a Dogmata instead, or if you need a cheaper Priest just take a Preacher. HQ slots are too precious for a Missionary unless you're bringing a Brigade.

Celestine and Geminae Superia: S tier: She's still amazing, and the bodyguard tricks are still legit. Drink your opponent's tears as her gal pals touch an objective and can't be shot at!

Triumph of Saint Katherine: B tier: Now that certain secondary picks are no longer reliable (RIP Octarius Data), this model gives a good angle into Leap of Faith. Still not sure how often I would take it.

Ephrael Stern and Kyganil: C tier: Another set of combat beatsticks; not bad, but Celestine should get the nod over these two and you may not have the HQ slots or points to spare.

Battle Sister Squad: B tier: Basic troops are still basic. These may be our go-to "action slave" units now that 2-model units can't get Engage on All Fronts or reliably get Nachmund Data (which 5 BSS can).

Sister Novitiate Squad: A tier: In Bloody Rose these are crazy good; in other orders, one squad can still be pretty useful, more so than another BSS anyways.

Aestred Thurga and Agathae Dolan: F tier: No, just no.

Imagifier: C tier: A couple of decent buff options (and one useless one), but usually there simply isn't room for her in a list.

Dialogus: D tier: Her main special ability besides being a Priest is simply too situational to really make her worth bringing. Just spend the 15 additional points and take a Dogmata instead.

Preacher: B tier: A cheap Priest if you need one (or if you just need War Hymn as cheaply as possible). I like the Zealot's Vindictor option, as it makes him actually surprisingly dangerous for such a cheap character.

Celestians: C tier: I still defend these as not being bad; there are simply better options. These are generalists in a game that rewards specialists.

Celestian Sacresants: A tier: Personally I think it's still worth taking one unit for Bodyguard tricks in any list; some lists can still make credible use of lots of them despite their higher cost. Let's be honest, they were a bit too cheap before.

Hospitaller: A tier: Being able to resurrect your models is pretty good, and the bubble of 6+++ is just icing on the cake. Some lists just don't have room for her though, but now that some other units are more expensive I think she's worth stronger consideration.

Dogmata: A tier: Best priest in the book by a country mile. Personally I think the ObSec-giving ability makes her worth it by itself; giving units the ability to shoot while doing actions is just gravy!

Paragon Warsuits: D tier: Even with the points drops and the stratagem support from the BR supplement, they just don't quite get there. Especially with overtuned Tau rampaging around. They need a rules rewrite, not just points drops and situational stratagems.

Repentia Superior: C tier: If you are footslogging Repentia up the board, this is an auto-include. If you're running them in transports or from reserves, probably skip her.

Sisters Repentia: A tier: Still one of the deadliest melee units in the game, although the proliferation of damage reduction effects has reduced their usefulness in many matchups.

Crusaders: C tier: Decently durable and points efficient, but no longer useful as action slaves due to needing more models.

Arco-Flagellants: B tier: These are incredibly nasty into certain targets, but they bounce off of a lot of sturdier stuff. They need a strat to be very effective and so only one unit should ever be run.

Death Cult Assassins: D tier: They lost their only niche now that small action slave units are a thing of the past.

Dominion Squad: A tier: One squad is still worth bringing even at their increased cost. Two would not be unreasonable for redundancy. Three's definitely a crowd now though.

Seraphim Squad: C tier: Their real niche was running in an Ebon Chalice detachment for the mortal wound flamer strat, and that's no longer a viable thing. They make decent backfield action units though (drop 6 in and grab some Nachmund data).

Zephyrim Squad: A tier: Still one of the better melee units; a bit pricy to do action slave things, but can do that in a pinch. A big unit in Bloody Rose can really wreck stuff if they can make it into combat intact.

Retributor Squad: B tier: Losing access to Argent Shroud tricks hurts these, but I think they are still something that most lists need, as they fill the heavy firepower niche better than anything else.

Mortifiers: B tier: Personally I really like these; they have decent shooting and have some pretty nasty melee potential. The meta has become increasingly hostile to them though.

Penitent Engines: B tier: Similar to Mortifiers above. The advance and charge thing is very niche, but being a vehicle they can use it to score Engage in a spot where the opponent might not expect.

Exorcist: D tier: These are still bad for their cost, and their strat should not cost 2CP, but I'm thinking a lot of lists might need to bite the bullet and take one anyways since ignoring LOS is such a useful capability.

Castigator: F tier: Somehow these didn't get a points drop. They're terrible.

Sororitas Rhino: B tier: We still need metal bawkses, so these are still our go-to.

Immolator: D tier: The firepower is worth having, and I still wonder if a vehicle list could work as a skew tactic, but with Tau around that's probably a no. At least they got a bit cheaper. Ah, who am I kidding, they're still likely garbage, just a bit less so.

Battle Sanctum: B tier: Newer rules are more fortification friendly and so this might actually be usable now, in which case it's definitely worth a look in some lists.

Overall Sisters took a pretty hefty whack from the nerf bat, but they aren't total garbage. I think some good builds will shake out, especially once Custodes and Tau get whatever balance update is inevitably coming for them. We'd probably already see more Sisters if it wasn't for those two dominating the leaderboards.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
New tier list? I thought you'd never ask! I love doing these, if for no other reason than as a thought exercise for myself. Here's how I think Sisters units stack up in our new Nachmund season:

Morvenn Vahl: S tier: Even with her higher points cost, she's way too good to leave out of a list. I suppose she's not a total auto-include if there's some specific thing you're trying to achieve with a different combination of HQs though, or if you wanted to use the Bloody Rose supplement for some reason.

Canoness: A tier: Now that we have a couple of Order-specific supplements, Canonesses have more options than ever. Martyred Lady always should take one with the awesome sword, and other orders can make at least decent use of one.

Palatine: B tier: Still playing second fiddle to the Canoness, at least she's still a cheap caddy for Blessings. If you aren't running Morvenn, having a Canoness and Palatine for their buffs is a decent alternative.

Junith Eruita: B tier: I still defend this character for Martyred Lady lists. It's probably not too difficult to keep a Sacresant unit or two wholly within her cover bubble to take advantage of that. She can also do bodyguard tricks with them of course.

Missionary: D tier: There's still very little reason to take one of these. Take a Dogmata instead, or if you need a cheaper Priest just take a Preacher. HQ slots are too precious for a Missionary unless you're bringing a Brigade.

Celestine and Geminae Superia: S tier: She's still amazing, and the bodyguard tricks are still legit. Drink your opponent's tears as her gal pals touch an objective and can't be shot at!

Triumph of Saint Katherine: B tier: Now that certain secondary picks are no longer reliable (RIP Octarius Data), this model gives a good angle into Leap of Faith. Still not sure how often I would take it.

Ephrael Stern and Kyganil: C tier: Another set of combat beatsticks; not bad, but Celestine should get the nod over these two and you may not have the HQ slots or points to spare.

Battle Sister Squad: B tier: Basic troops are still basic. These may be our go-to "action slave" units now that 2-model units can't get Engage on All Fronts or reliably get Nachmund Data (which 5 BSS can).

Sister Novitiate Squad: A tier: In Bloody Rose these are crazy good; in other orders, one squad can still be pretty useful, more so than another BSS anyways.

Aestred Thurga and Agathae Dolan: F tier: No, just no.

Imagifier: C tier: A couple of decent buff options (and one useless one), but usually there simply isn't room for her in a list.

Dialogus: D tier: Her main special ability besides being a Priest is simply too situational to really make her worth bringing. Just spend the 15 additional points and take a Dogmata instead.

Preacher: B tier: A cheap Priest if you need one (or if you just need War Hymn as cheaply as possible). I like the Zealot's Vindictor option, as it makes him actually surprisingly dangerous for such a cheap character.

Celestians: C tier: I still defend these as not being bad; there are simply better options. These are generalists in a game that rewards specialists.

Celestian Sacresants: A tier: Personally I think it's still worth taking one unit for Bodyguard tricks in any list; some lists can still make credible use of lots of them despite their higher cost. Let's be honest, they were a bit too cheap before.

Hospitaller: A tier: Being able to resurrect your models is pretty good, and the bubble of 6+++ is just icing on the cake. Some lists just don't have room for her though, but now that some other units are more expensive I think she's worth stronger consideration.

Dogmata: A tier: Best priest in the book by a country mile. Personally I think the ObSec-giving ability makes her worth it by itself; giving units the ability to shoot while doing actions is just gravy!

Paragon Warsuits: D tier: Even with the points drops and the stratagem support from the BR supplement, they just don't quite get there. Especially with overtuned Tau rampaging around. They need a rules rewrite, not just points drops and situational stratagems.

Repentia Superior: C tier: If you are footslogging Repentia up the board, this is an auto-include. If you're running them in transports or from reserves, probably skip her.

Sisters Repentia: A tier: Still one of the deadliest melee units in the game, although the proliferation of damage reduction effects has reduced their usefulness in many matchups.

Crusaders: C tier: Decently durable and points efficient, but no longer useful as action slaves due to needing more models.

Arco-Flagellants: B tier: These are incredibly nasty into certain targets, but they bounce off of a lot of sturdier stuff. They need a strat to be very effective and so only one unit should ever be run.

Death Cult Assassins: D tier: They lost their only niche now that small action slave units are a thing of the past.

Dominion Squad: A tier: One squad is still worth bringing even at their increased cost. Two would not be unreasonable for redundancy. Three's definitely a crowd now though.

Seraphim Squad: C tier: Their real niche was running in an Ebon Chalice detachment for the mortal wound flamer strat, and that's no longer a viable thing. They make decent backfield action units though (drop 6 in and grab some Nachmund data).

Zephyrim Squad: A tier: Still one of the better melee units; a bit pricy to do action slave things, but can do that in a pinch. A big unit in Bloody Rose can really wreck stuff if they can make it into combat intact.

Retributor Squad: B tier: Losing access to Argent Shroud tricks hurts these, but I think they are still something that most lists need, as they fill the heavy firepower niche better than anything else.

Mortifiers: B tier: Personally I really like these; they have decent shooting and have some pretty nasty melee potential. The meta has become increasingly hostile to them though.

Penitent Engines: B tier: Similar to Mortifiers above. The advance and charge thing is very niche, but being a vehicle they can use it to score Engage in a spot where the opponent might not expect.

Exorcist: D tier: These are still bad for their cost, and their strat should not cost 2CP, but I'm thinking a lot of lists might need to bite the bullet and take one anyways since ignoring LOS is such a useful capability.

Castigator: F tier: Somehow these didn't get a points drop. They're terrible.

Sororitas Rhino: B tier: We still need metal bawkses, so these are still our go-to.

Immolator: D tier: The firepower is worth having, and I still wonder if a vehicle list could work as a skew tactic, but with Tau around that's probably a no. At least they got a bit cheaper. Ah, who am I kidding, they're still likely garbage, just a bit less so.

Battle Sanctum: B tier: Newer rules are more fortification friendly and so this might actually be usable now, in which case it's definitely worth a look in some lists.

Overall Sisters took a pretty hefty whack from the nerf bat, but they aren't total garbage. I think some good builds will shake out, especially once Custodes and Tau get whatever balance update is inevitably coming for them. We'd probably already see more Sisters if it wasn't for those two dominating the leaderboards.

I am in agreement with your overall assessment. We took some hefty nerfs from CA, but once the best of the best armies like Tau and Custodes get toned down a bit I think we will start placing to some degree in most events again. Every new tier list that comes out still puts us in A tier just due to the lethality of Bloody Rose and the board control of Valorous Heart.

Just one caveat to your personal tier list though, Castigators DID go down 10 points in the new CA. So now they are 155 with the battle cannon or 150 stock with the autocannons instead of 165 and 160, respectively. Still not really competitive by any means BUT I have found that S9 can be pretty useful in certain casual games especially against 3 PBC's and of course Leman Russes.I will always just be glad that we at least have access to SOME strength 9 and 7, and even more strength 6 than we ever had before!

Finally, I think the Exorcist belongs at least in C tier simply due to the utility of ignore LoS shooting. It is too fragile and too CP intensive, yes, but the tech choice of ignoring LoS to clear off a backfield objective or even just artillery duel a little is worth taking one (and only one).

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
I don't know we deny all powers on 6+

If you take triumph you also get a single 5+ deny

We also have deny strat

and I'd consider the null rod in a BR list ( assuming you take beneficence)

Not reliable but better than a lot of armies

I believe that if you give the Triumph a WL trait it denies on a 3+ twice per turn.

I would not spend the cp on that for the reason the other person pointed out but stock it has all 6 sacred rites including the 5+



As to the above little harsh on the Crusaders there still the same points as battle sisters but with powerswords, zealot and a 4++. You can also take them in 3's if what you want is an engage unit.

So allow me to be just a little salty for a moment. I have been reading through the new Tyranid codex that pretty much got completely leaked today, barring a few relevant things, and the Exocrine makes the Exorcist (plus the Castigator) absolutely cry.

Not gonna do the mathhammer here but on paper the nerfs to the anti-tank missiles of the Exorcist make it have an average of 6 shots at S8 AP -2 Dd6 on a T7/11W platform for 170 points.

The Exocrine, for the same points of 170, gets a MINIMUM of 7 shots at S8 AP -4 D3 on a T8/15 wound platform. It also has Blast, which while I like that we can shoot an anti-tank Exorcist in engagement range, it would be nice to have a way to automatically get that max of 9 shots without having to get lucky.

I know the codex creep is only getting worse from here but man its just so sad to watch Nids get something more efficient and scarier than one of the coolest tanks in the game for the same cost. This thing's minimum amount of shots is greater than our average and more than double our minimum. Yes it is also BS 3+ now too. When it was 4+ I could sort of understand it, but now the Exorcist needs to be like 135 for the anti-infantry missiles and 140-150 MAX for the anti-tank ones. Yes we get Dd6 which makes it scary with Miracle Dice, but at its 170 point total it needs AP -3 on the anti-tank missiles and at least the 12 wounds back, even if it is never getting T8 again.

Just so upsetting, but good for Nids at least. Had they not had Crusher Stampede for the last few months I would be a bit happier for them though.

New Faq out BR supplement is fixed so you now get the bonuses even if you have vahl/triumph/hospitallier

Still not great but it's some good news atleast fir BR

 ZergSmasher wrote:
New tier list? I thought you'd never ask! I love doing these, if for no other reason than as a thought exercise for myself. Here's how I think Sisters units stack up in our new Nachmund season:

Spoiler:

Morvenn Vahl: S tier: Even with her higher points cost, she's way too good to leave out of a list. I suppose she's not a total auto-include if there's some specific thing you're trying to achieve with a different combination of HQs though, or if you wanted to use the Bloody Rose supplement for some reason.

Canoness: A tier: Now that we have a couple of Order-specific supplements, Canonesses have more options than ever. Martyred Lady always should take one with the awesome sword, and other orders can make at least decent use of one.

Palatine: B tier: Still playing second fiddle to the Canoness, at least she's still a cheap caddy for Blessings. If you aren't running Morvenn, having a Canoness and Palatine for their buffs is a decent alternative.

Junith Eruita: B tier: I still defend this character for Martyred Lady lists. It's probably not too difficult to keep a Sacresant unit or two wholly within her cover bubble to take advantage of that. She can also do bodyguard tricks with them of course.

Missionary: D tier: There's still very little reason to take one of these. Take a Dogmata instead, or if you need a cheaper Priest just take a Preacher. HQ slots are too precious for a Missionary unless you're bringing a Brigade.

Celestine and Geminae Superia: S tier: She's still amazing, and the bodyguard tricks are still legit. Drink your opponent's tears as her gal pals touch an objective and can't be shot at!

Triumph of Saint Katherine: B tier: Now that certain secondary picks are no longer reliable (RIP Octarius Data), this model gives a good angle into Leap of Faith. Still not sure how often I would take it.

Ephrael Stern and Kyganil: C tier: Another set of combat beatsticks; not bad, but Celestine should get the nod over these two and you may not have the HQ slots or points to spare.

Battle Sister Squad: B tier: Basic troops are still basic. These may be our go-to "action slave" units now that 2-model units can't get Engage on All Fronts or reliably get Nachmund Data (which 5 BSS can).

Sister Novitiate Squad: A tier: In Bloody Rose these are crazy good; in other orders, one squad can still be pretty useful, more so than another BSS anyways.

Aestred Thurga and Agathae Dolan: F tier: No, just no.

Imagifier: C tier: A couple of decent buff options (and one useless one), but usually there simply isn't room for her in a list.

Dialogus: D tier: Her main special ability besides being a Priest is simply too situational to really make her worth bringing. Just spend the 15 additional points and take a Dogmata instead.

Preacher: B tier: A cheap Priest if you need one (or if you just need War Hymn as cheaply as possible). I like the Zealot's Vindictor option, as it makes him actually surprisingly dangerous for such a cheap character.

Celestians: C tier: I still defend these as not being bad; there are simply better options. These are generalists in a game that rewards specialists.

Celestian Sacresants: A tier: Personally I think it's still worth taking one unit for Bodyguard tricks in any list; some lists can still make credible use of lots of them despite their higher cost. Let's be honest, they were a bit too cheap before.

Hospitaller: A tier: Being able to resurrect your models is pretty good, and the bubble of 6+++ is just icing on the cake. Some lists just don't have room for her though, but now that some other units are more expensive I think she's worth stronger consideration.

Dogmata: A tier: Best priest in the book by a country mile. Personally I think the ObSec-giving ability makes her worth it by itself; giving units the ability to shoot while doing actions is just gravy!

Paragon Warsuits: D tier: Even with the points drops and the stratagem support from the BR supplement, they just don't quite get there. Especially with overtuned Tau rampaging around. They need a rules rewrite, not just points drops and situational stratagems.

Repentia Superior: C tier: If you are footslogging Repentia up the board, this is an auto-include. If you're running them in transports or from reserves, probably skip her.

Sisters Repentia: A tier: Still one of the deadliest melee units in the game, although the proliferation of damage reduction effects has reduced their usefulness in many matchups.

Crusaders: C tier: Decently durable and points efficient, but no longer useful as action slaves due to needing more models.

Arco-Flagellants: B tier: These are incredibly nasty into certain targets, but they bounce off of a lot of sturdier stuff. They need a strat to be very effective and so only one unit should ever be run.

Death Cult Assassins: D tier: They lost their only niche now that small action slave units are a thing of the past.

Dominion Squad: A tier: One squad is still worth bringing even at their increased cost. Two would not be unreasonable for redundancy. Three's definitely a crowd now though.

Seraphim Squad: C tier: Their real niche was running in an Ebon Chalice detachment for the mortal wound flamer strat, and that's no longer a viable thing. They make decent backfield action units though (drop 6 in and grab some Nachmund data).

Zephyrim Squad: A tier: Still one of the better melee units; a bit pricy to do action slave things, but can do that in a pinch. A big unit in Bloody Rose can really wreck stuff if they can make it into combat intact.

Retributor Squad: B tier: Losing access to Argent Shroud tricks hurts these, but I think they are still something that most lists need, as they fill the heavy firepower niche better than anything else.

Mortifiers: B tier: Personally I really like these; they have decent shooting and have some pretty nasty melee potential. The meta has become increasingly hostile to them though.

Penitent Engines: B tier: Similar to Mortifiers above. The advance and charge thing is very niche, but being a vehicle they can use it to score Engage in a spot where the opponent might not expect.

Exorcist: D tier: These are still bad for their cost, and their strat should not cost 2CP, but I'm thinking a lot of lists might need to bite the bullet and take one anyways since ignoring LOS is such a useful capability.

Castigator: F tier: Somehow these didn't get a points drop. They're terrible.

Sororitas Rhino: B tier: We still need metal bawkses, so these are still our go-to.

Immolator: D tier: The firepower is worth having, and I still wonder if a vehicle list could work as a skew tactic, but with Tau around that's probably a no. At least they got a bit cheaper. Ah, who am I kidding, they're still likely garbage, just a bit less so.

Battle Sanctum: B tier: Newer rules are more fortification friendly and so this might actually be usable now, in which case it's definitely worth a look in some lists.

Overall Sisters took a pretty hefty whack from the nerf bat, but they aren't total garbage. I think some good builds will shake out, especially once Custodes and Tau get whatever balance update is inevitably coming for them. We'd probably already see more Sisters if it wasn't for those two dominating the leaderboards.

Why not a new tier list?

Order Convictions:

VH: A tier. VH sacresancts are the only thing tough enough to stand up to Tau shooting while still being reasonably strong into Crusher, Custodes, and even Eldar. A meta pick, but even in a less skewed environment, still very good.

BR: B+ Tier. Supplement had 2 meaningful stratagems and that's it but the conviction was already good enough without it. Has fallen off with how easy our hyper aggression options get blunted by the big boys. Still a very solid conviction.

OoML: B+ Tier. Honestly underrated these, now having played the actual list. They tend to lean into 'our opponent is way deadlier than us' and there's a lot of that going around. They also exploit the hell out of the 12 easy points we can get from Leap. Absolutely MUST run the passion if it has any significant melee presence though.

Others: F Tier Argent Shroud has been removed and Sacred Rose and Ebon Chalice were never viable mono-convictions.

Morvenn: A Tier. Still good but her flaws are even more obvious now. Her buff aura doesn't have great targets unless you're VH, her melee stats are only 'good' for her cost, and her price tag isn't really something most lists have to spare anymore. No reason to take her in bloody rose and she's a hard sell over Celestine+Junith in OoML.

Celestine: A+ Tier. Her bodyguard abuse is the only real way we have of contesting crisis suits and other 'sit and shoot' units and outside of that she's just incredible. Even with no meaningful force multipliers, she's still almost irreplaceable.

Stern: A- Tier. Diet Celestine. Great for what she is, really nice for hero-hammer style shooting lists should our shooting units ever be good.

Junith: A+ Tier. Her actual raw power is probably B tier but what she does for 130pts for OoML is excellent and she should be in absolutely ever OoML list.

Canoness: A Tier: Great. Always been great, always be great. Never a reason not to bring one.

Palantine: B+ Tier: Cheaper Diet Canoness. Has utility in multiple lists but will often be crowded out by other characters. Still a very solid HQ choice.

Missionary: D Tier: Crap preacher. Not worth the slot.

Battle Sisters: D Tier: Our troops are bad. They're way to expensive for not being able to do anything but stand on objectives and pray. 20 Bricks are a liability, Argent Shroud being removed means they're not even a decent shooting option anymore. These need to see a drop or a significant buff in the next book.

Novitiates: B Tier: Would completely replace battle sisters in Bloody Rose if they could. If you could just take 3 units they might even be a better option in OoML and VH. Alas, you cannot so they just end up being a 1 of in Bloody Rose lists.

Astraed: Not even in crusade.

Dialogus: C. Needs to be 10-15pts cheaper or have another rule to compete with the dogmata.

Dogmata: S Tier. Easily our best buff unit. One is mandatory in every list.

Preacher: B Tier. Solid unit, often competes with a repentia superior or a palantine for #2 buff character.

Repentia Superior: B Tier. Sometimes you'll take her and kick yourself for not taking a preacher instead. Sometimes she'll whip a unit of repentia halfway across the board and win the game. Caveat Emptor.

Imagifier: D Tier. 5 different tales now, still terrible. Fix Tale of the Stoic.

Hospitaller: B Tier. Good because VH is good. Stratagem should be 3 models flat.

Celestians: C tier because of bodyguard shenanigans. Once they fix that, D Tier. They're just bad battle sisters.

Celestian Sacresanct: S Tier: An interesting case. This unit is an example of a classic problem with GW's balance passes. They took a very significant 2pt nerf per model and ended up even more autotake. The combination of the current meta combined with their higher cost crowding out other options has seen many competitive lists dropping characters/support units for more blocks of sacresancts. By trying to improve the books internal balance, GW has only succeeded in crowding out other options.

Paragon Warsuits: C- Tier: Even with significant points drops. Even with multiple highly favorable stratagems. Even with Core. These things are still overpriced crap. They're just way too fragile. They don't really have any room to drop lower in points without crowding into the Pengine/Mortifier space, but they have to. At 60pts with a multimelta, they could compete with Crisis suits or Custodes. Until then, they're just not good enough.

Repentia: A+ Tier: Still an absolute gem. Rips through most things in BR and is excellent at trading up in OoML. The extra MD also helps score Leap. Top tier unit.

Others: All the old INQ units are fine, but with the point increases we've gotten and every book coming out more broken than the last, we don't really have room for 'fine' at the moment.

Dominions: A-. Still necessary for escorting small units of repentia or Retributors up the Board. Definitely hurting after the frankly asinine point hike.

Seraphim: D- Tier. They're deepstriking objective campers. That's it. Also, it makes me incredibly salty that Deadly Descent doesn't work on melta pistols but Crisis suits can shoot out of deepstrike with 10 times the firepower.

Zephyrim: B Tier: Cheap objective grabbers in VH and OoML. Decent fast melee in BR.

Pengines/Morties: C+ Tier. Still good on paper but are absolutely trashed by the current meta. They need to be cheaper, unfortunately.

Retributors: A+ Tier. Similar to Sacresancts, After taking no less than 5 rounds of targeted nerfs I've started to take 3 units of these, rather than the 2 I was before. The meta is highly favorable towards them and they're the only thing we have that kills things at range. Even only hitting on 4+, they're still the best we got.

Exorcist: D- Tier: Won't be playable until they make devastating refrain cost 1 CP.

Immolators: C- Tier: If they drop them 10 more points and let you use the self destruct strat on the MM versions again, they can see some fringe play. Until then, they're a fun gimmick unit to spam at locals if you're not trying to top.

Castigator. F--Tier. Easily the worst unit in the book. One of the worst tanks in the game. So terrible it made the Exorcist worse just by existing. Still doesn't benefit from ANY of our army rules in any meaningful way. Feth this thing. It needs a complete Datasheet rewrite. No amount of strats or point changes will save it. An EXOCRINE is only 20pts more expensive than this sack of crap. Sidebar: They went down 10pts. They could have gone down 100 and I still wouldn't take it over retributors. They're not worth taking up an HS slot, price be damned.

Rhino: Rhino. A+.

Sanctum: B- Tier: B+ in OoML. As long as leap of Faith exists, this is a good unit. Build your own obscuring is nice too. Regardless, absolutely worth a look.


Army as a whole is much weaker, no doubt about it. Hopefully the next balance pass is actually a balance pass and can help us. Still, could be a lot worse.


Edit: Triumph: F Tier: So crap I forgot it existed. Just take a Battle Sanctum and a Canoness and save 100pts.

Poor triumph that's way to harsh

Firstly in wtc faq events its not an option to take battle sanctum

In non wtc faq events its not an either or

Generally you want two of ooml, battle sanctum, triumph if your building to leap of faith

And if you've paid for battle sanctum + cheap character for 100 pts more your getting 18w -1 to hit and a 4++ with a +1 to hit - a solid aura stacking with a cannoness buff, auto 6 ing a miracle dice is great and it's got a lot of other minor buffs.that are situationaly usefull 5+ deny being one MW aura and ignoring moral aura sure it won't damage output like the others but it's not meant to its a force multiplier.