If they retire Armageddon Dunes/Astrogranite Debris, I revolt!
So, funny thing about that. Peachy left the company and has been doing YouTube with the Painting Phase. He recommends AK interactive's texture paint, which comes in a much larger pot, is the exact same color as astrogranite (and comes in other colors) and is half the price of one of the pots of astrogranite.
The Phazer wrote: He also speaks a bit about how he's not sure how much of a "reset" the rules are, but just that it is a codex reset and the edition will have indexes at launch. So sounds a bit more consistent with the other rumours.
A codex reset with indices at launch means a pretty big rules change. An incremental core rules change doesn't require that, or at least didn't for past edition changes.
If they're jumping ship already, that would honestly make 8th/9th the shortest and least successful 'era' of 40k.
Though I'd take 6th over everything 4th and onwards. Especially 7th, since that was just a few pages of errata and WFB's most unbalanced magic system stapled onto the game in a blind fit of optimistic stupidity, followed by absolutely terribly broken army books.
Back in 7th I advocated for stripping the to wound roll, because the rules were tedious and bloated and there were too many layers of saves.
Having played One page rules I think a to wound roll/ toughness is exactly what this game would need to turn down the high lethality.
Since lethality is the main problem of 9th as well I don’t think stripping toughness would be useful, especially not with how GW writes rules. It'd work until the third Codex is released.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Back in 7th I advocated for stripping the to wound roll, because the rules were tedious and bloated and there were too many layers of saves.
Having played One page rules I think a to wound roll/ toughness is exactly what this game would need to turn down the high lethality.
Since lethality is the main problem of 9th as well I don’t think stripping toughness would be useful, especially not with how GW writes rules. It'd work until the third Codex is released.
Bump toughness across the board and cut back number of shots.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Back in 7th I advocated for stripping the to wound roll, because the rules were tedious and bloated and there were too many layers of saves.
Having played One page rules I think a to wound roll/ toughness is exactly what this game would need to turn down the high lethality.
Since lethality is the main problem of 9th as well I don’t think stripping toughness would be useful, especially not with how GW writes rules. It'd work until the third Codex is released.
Bump toughness across the board and cut back number of shots.
Push save into toughness would make for a much faster game, with resilience as a roll for super tough things, and inv saves still on some things.
Would also help a lot for balance if there was a cut off for damage as well,
Instead I just think these tern the infantry part of the game into a how much can you shoot, as I have no real expectations of GW writing good rules for it.
Though I'd take 6th over everything 4th and onwards. Especially 7th, since that was just a few pages of errata and WFB's most unbalanced magic system stapled onto the game in a blind fit of optimistic stupidity, followed by absolutely terribly broken army books.
...I'm going to assume there's a typo in there, Voss?
And GW should leave Toughness and the to-wound roll alone. Different weapons will damage enemies at different rates, which is a function of the attacker's S & AP, and the defender's T & Save(s). And this 4chan gibberish even goes beyond the daftness of AOS' fixed to-wound rolls, where a Goblin wounds a Great Unclean One as easily as it wounds a Skaven Slave - if they'd said GW were porting that over, I'd've found it more believable, unfortunately.
I sincerely hope they don't do a full reset like they did with 8th. I hated having to buy indexes only for them to be invalidated fairly soon, and the power disparity between codex and index armies that existed until everyone had their codex. Plus it would be a major feels-bad for all World Eaters players, who will only get four months with their codex before it becomes obsolete. That part wouldn't even affect me directly but I'd still be unhappy about it.
That being said, I'm not about to quit playing or anything. I'll just have to roll with the punches like everyone else. At least we're most likely getting The Lion out of the deal.
40k is one of the very few mass battle games that use toughness and armour
all others are either skirmish or have a single defence stat
this is nothing new, this is what made 40k unique among the other system around, that there is more granularity and it worked well for the initial rules
a problem if 8th/9th was that GW made a new "to wound" table without adjusting Strength/Toughness according to the new table
in theory were are back to the ideas of 3rd-7th Edition Auto-Wound of high strength weapons
if Strength is Double+1 Toughness you don't make a roll but kill the target if you hit
it is the same but without the need to do "math" during the game but just checking if there is the special rule in the unit data sheet that says yes or no
the problem is never that those things don't work with other games, or that other games make better use of such mechanics
the problem is that GW designer copy&paste rules from other games without understanding why those rules are used in the first place
Stratagems and Command Points were a literal copy of other rules, yet GW managed to crew it up in a way that people "hate" that game mechanic now no matter if it works for the other games or not
Kill Teams movement tools are another good example, literal copy of other games without using any of the advantages but just make it a ruler without numbers so people don't need to do "math"
a combined defence stat makes a faster game as you roll less dice
but you can be sure that GW will find a way to make it much slower
"Game is intended to be faster, with smaller units and a much bigger emphasis on terrain" Wasn't that the mantra of 9th? They were successful, completely. MSU is the rule. Terrain is oppressively (to the point of damaging the quality of the game) obscuring L shaped ruins. God help you if have lanes of fire with only a -1 to hit to save you. It's invisible or dead. Yep, we need more of all that. My troops auto wound? Unless they're 3x the wound count on stuff that matters like AoS this will get dirty really fast.
Toughness is now only on datasheets with a [Heavy Armour] keyword ability. E.g Terminators, Rhinos, Dreadnoughts etc. Generic troops now only roll to hit when attacking and save when defending.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think he's means rules base. For all of 6th/7th's problems, they were based on the same rules that started in 3rd.
If they moved to a new rules base for 10th, it'd make the 8th/9th period unique.
6th was about 2 years and up till 9th took the lead, it was the worst edition IMHO
Most players look back on 7th as worse but that was mostly later in the edition, based on the formation spam/allies rules. the mechanics of the game were actually slightly better in many ways in 7th.
It was the first edition that dropped after most of the original design team left.
Yes the basic mechanics were based on 3rd-5th but they added so much garbage that it was only partially recognizable. that is why when we did our hybrid edition rules most come from 3rd-5th and about the only things we use aside from some 6th/7th ed codexes that didn't exist before 5th was grenade throwing, snap fire, overwatch and combining the FW flyer rules with the GW flyer rules (making hem harder to hit but easier to kill).
40k is one of the very few mass battle games that use toughness and armour
all others are either skirmish or have a single defence stat
this is nothing new, this is what made 40k unique among the other system around, that there is more granularity and it worked well for the initial rules
That is one of the reasons i still play oldhammer. i like it for what it is-epic thematic battles in the 40K universe, not meant to be balanced, not meant to be for tournament play. it is unique in the genre, It is comparatively fast (we can usually get through 7 turns in less than 2 hours) and simple for a large battle game while not being so abstract that it loses it's simulation type feel.
I play a bunch of other game systems i enjoy (see my sig) regularly and they are all unique in their own way. It keeps you from getting burned out by playing the same game system over and over, especially when you get to play as much as our game group does.
I already have a hard confirm on a 40K game for Saturday pitting my 7th ed admech codex VS 5th ed imperial guard codex. i also have a confirm on a clan V clan classic battle tech game, i am almost certain we will also be getting some monpoc in as well....and that's just for starters.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Back in 7th I advocated for stripping the to wound roll, because the rules were tedious and bloated and there were too many layers of saves.
Having played One page rules I think a to wound roll/ toughness is exactly what this game would need to turn down the high lethality.
Since lethality is the main problem of 9th as well I don’t think stripping toughness would be useful, especially not with how GW writes rules. It'd work until the third Codex is released.
Bump toughness across the board and cut back number of shots.
Push save into toughness would make for a much faster game, with resilience as a roll for super tough things, and inv saves still on some things.
Would also help a lot for balance if there was a cut off for damage as well,
Instead I just think these tern the infantry part of the game into a how much can you shoot, as I have no real expectations of GW writing good rules for it.
Well. While BS 3+ S4 vs T4+ can be roughly be same as 4+...problem is of course with values ranging from 2+ to 6+ not much variety.
But then again that's just rumour. I'll believe it when I see it.
leopard wrote: marines kill on a 3+
normals kill on a 4+, or a 5+ v marines
orks kill on a 6+ because feth orks..
I could see them trying to streamline it that way, fits with making upgrades more costed in, and I'd expect to see "power level" pushed a lot harder
With a lot of marines conveniently elevated to 2 wounds, marines would still be much more resilient than e.g. guardsmen, just by a different mechanism. Of course that makes a lot of difference for D1 vs D2 or DD3 weapons, but that is probably a plus in GW's book, because it allows to make marines 'moar awesome' with their 20 different types of boltgun.
I'm hoping they say 'feth it' and reintroduce D4, D8, D10, D12 rolls/dice rather than 2D6+2 nonsense.
Straight dice roll. Easy. Can make tough armour tough again, such as Terminator armour being 3+ but on a D12 or something, with the fallback to 5++ on a D6 if hit with something hilariously big.
It would even benefit simple troops, such as guardsmen, would be 5+ still, but on a D8 so a straight 50/50. Hell, there's so much granularity you could have that would address issues of a straight D6 system...
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Back in 7th I advocated for stripping the to wound roll, because the rules were tedious and bloated and there were too many layers of saves.
Having played One page rules I think a to wound roll/ toughness is exactly what this game would need to turn down the high lethality.
Since lethality is the main problem of 9th as well I don’t think stripping toughness would be useful, especially not with how GW writes rules. It'd work until the third Codex is released.
Bump toughness across the board and cut back number of shots.
Push save into toughness would make for a much faster game, with resilience as a roll for super tough things, and inv saves still on some things.
Would also help a lot for balance if there was a cut off for damage as well,
Instead I just think these tern the infantry part of the game into a how much can you shoot, as I have no real expectations of GW writing good rules for it.
Well. While BS 3+ S4 vs T4+ can be roughly be same as 4+...problem is of course with values ranging from 2+ to 6+ not much variety.
But then again that's just rumour. I'll believe it when I see it.
You can do a lot with a D6 if you want, they don’t have to stick to a strict formula. Just GW has no idea of why, so we just expect a bunch of random rather than a look at refinement of systems.
It’s probably a feature for them, can now sells new books. But actually fixing issues, I expect so little.
still think that somewhere in the Nottingham bunker there needs to be a serious discussion about what 40k is meant to be.
for me you have the "universe", and games set in it, I'd like to see kill team expanded, thats the "skirmish" game, squad level. 40k used to be the sort of platoon level, not huge, individuals still matter - GW have moved more towards it being company level and up, in terms of game size
whats needed is a choice on what size of game they want, and rules suitable for it.
I'd almost say use the Apoc system as a core game, slightly more detailed and then stick a new game in between thats aimed at a 'core' or three or four units, with some supporting elements and that works at that level
current 40k is trying to work with small and large games and failing at both
The core game’s scale has grown over the years, as folk spend ever more years collecting and growing armies, and so the rules were adapted to allow larger forces to be realistically fielded.
Not also providing smaller scale, perhaps with more detailed rules is what did for WHFB, as that got to the stage where the initial outlay was pretty damned high.
I wouldn’t say no to a middle ground between Skirmish and Mass Pagga in terms of rules. Being stuck in my ways, 2nd Ed type detail would suit me. In terms of rough modern equivalent? A 1,500 point 2nd Ed game was about nice, and is probably around 1,000 points worth of modern Stuff.
The core game’s scale has grown over the years, as folk spend ever more years collecting and growing armies, and so the rules were adapted to allow larger forces to be realistically fielded.
Not also providing smaller scale, perhaps with more detailed rules is what did for WHFB, as that got to the stage where the initial outlay was pretty damned high.
I wouldn’t say no to a middle ground between Skirmish and Mass Pagga in terms of rules. Being stuck in my ways, 2nd Ed type detail would suit me. In terms of rough modern equivalent? A 1,500 point 2nd Ed game was about nice, and is probably around 1,000 points worth of modern Stuff.
Also the actual minis got a lot bigger in scale and also lots of huge sized kits these days. Meaning the footprints on a regular table feel a bit to crowded. IMO.
Smaller armies would probably be more fun to build and play and look better on the table.
A big part of it is expectation, even when we did big games we had a hard divide of players wanting to see big games with infantry and tanks, to players who just wanted to bring there biggest minis and ignore the smaller stuff.
I don’t want to see infantry reduced even more, it what makes 40k still Interesting.
So these rules do just fill me with more apathy to the GW brand.
The core game’s scale has grown over the years, as folk spend ever more years collecting and growing armies, and so the rules were adapted to allow larger forces to be realistically fielded.
Not also providing smaller scale, perhaps with more detailed rules is what did for WHFB, as that got to the stage where the initial outlay was pretty damned high.
I wouldn’t say no to a middle ground between Skirmish and Mass Pagga in terms of rules. Being stuck in my ways, 2nd Ed type detail would suit me. In terms of rough modern equivalent? A 1,500 point 2nd Ed game was about nice, and is probably around 1,000 points worth of modern Stuff.
that sort of size game, getting its own rules, but perhaps such that when you get a faction codex you also get the rules for this game as well would appeal a lot
gives options
you can use the "big" game with lower points and get a faster, less detailed game
you can use the "medium" game rules with higher points and get a slower, more detailed game
comes down to asking "do you want the individual model to make a difference or be part of a unit?"
The core game’s scale has grown over the years, as folk spend ever more years collecting and growing armies, and so the rules were adapted to allow larger forces to be realistically fielded.
Not also providing smaller scale, perhaps with more detailed rules is what did for WHFB, as that got to the stage where the initial outlay was pretty damned high.
I wouldn’t say no to a middle ground between Skirmish and Mass Pagga in terms of rules. Being stuck in my ways, 2nd Ed type detail would suit me. In terms of rough modern equivalent? A 1,500 point 2nd Ed game was about nice, and is probably around 1,000 points worth of modern Stuff.
Also the actual minis got a lot bigger in scale and also lots of huge sized kits these days. Meaning the footprints on a regular table feel a bit to crowded. IMO.
Smaller armies would probably be more fun to build and play and look better on the table.
its not even the models being physically larger as such, its the close proximity that does it, feels right for infantry up close, but tanks bumper to bumper looks wrong
thinking about it, if the "to wound" roll goes this is a massive buff to any horde shooting army like say Imperial Guard..
basically it can work in historical games where everyone is equally squishy and weapons are equally lethal if they hit - so all that matters is "did you hit?" and "do they have effective armour?"
but not sure the idea of the best anti infantry weapon being the las gun because of how many you bring working is going to be fun
A very trustworthy leaker over on TGA (AoS forum) just said at least a part of the latest rumors are false. Specifically these three things:
>Core rules are streamlined
>Psychic Phase and Command Phase are combined
>Toughness is now only on datasheets with a [Heavy Armour] keyword ability. E.g Terminators, Rhinos, Dreadnoughts etc. Generic troops now only roll to hit when attacking and save when defending.
No idea about the rest of the rumors he just quoted these and said false but at least in terms of AoS I can't remember a time he was wrong about something
I can believe that streamlining the core rules some more is a bogus rumor. What's there to streamline about it any further? Remember that the peak of GW's streamlining efforts were the core rules of AoS's release version, proudly marketed as being only four pages long. Then they had to add a twelve page FAQ/commentary document to add necessary rules and interactions to make the four pages of core rules kinda sorta work. It would be much the same for 10th ed 40k and, well, we can hope that GW occasionally learns from experience, right?
Geifer wrote: I can believe that streamlining the core rules some more is a bogus rumor. What's there to streamline about it any further? Remember that the peak of GW's streamlining efforts were the core rules of AoS's release version, proudly marketed as being only four pages long. Then they had to add a twelve page FAQ/commentary document to add necessary rules and interactions to make the four pages of core rules kinda sorta work. It would be much the same for 10th ed 40k and, well, we can hope that GW occasionally learns from experience, right?
I'd still argue that AoS is a much more streamlined system than 40k. By no means perfect, but the states I am concerned about are all on a single warscroll
Aecus Decimus wrote: As for the idea of a complete reboot, that nonsense. Selling new codices and new AoO books that will only be valid for a couple of months is not ok.
Geifer wrote: I can believe that streamlining the core rules some more is a bogus rumor. What's there to streamline about it any further?
It seems especially suspect since they specifically called out the over-streamlining of 8th as a problem when they introduced 9th. They mentioned terrain as one area they went too far with at the time. I'd be surprised if they tried to streamline the core rules again.
I'd be less surprised if they streamlined the Codeices and strats, WLT and relics in some way. That's where a lot of the current bloat is really problematic.
Dr. Mills wrote: I'm hoping they say 'feth it' and reintroduce D4, D8, D10, D12 rolls/dice rather than 2D6+2 nonsense.
Straight dice roll. Easy. Can make tough armour tough again, such as Terminator armour being 3+ but on a D12 or something, with the fallback to 5++ on a D6 if hit with something hilariously big.
It would even benefit simple troops, such as guardsmen, would be 5+ still, but on a D8 so a straight 50/50. Hell, there's so much granularity you could have that would address issues of a straight D6 system...
They will be proprietary GW d9s, copyrighted, trademarked and patented.
IIRC the next regular polyhedron is somewhere in the 50s in regards to size. I can see GW moving to that scale and just making everything based on a single roll for all of your attacks from 1 unit and an opposed roll for the defender. Cross index the resulting difference and viola!.
Dr. Mills wrote: I'm hoping they say 'feth it' and reintroduce D4, D8, D10, D12 rolls/dice rather than 2D6+2 nonsense.
Straight dice roll. Easy. Can make tough armour tough again, such as Terminator armour being 3+ but on a D12 or something, with the fallback to 5++ on a D6 if hit with something hilariously big.
It would even benefit simple troops, such as guardsmen, would be 5+ still, but on a D8 so a straight 50/50. Hell, there's so much granularity you could have that would address issues of a straight D6 system...
They will be proprietary GW d9s, copyrighted, trademarked and patented.
Geifer wrote: I can believe that streamlining the core rules some more is a bogus rumor. What's there to streamline about it any further? Remember that the peak of GW's streamlining efforts were the core rules of AoS's release version, proudly marketed as being only four pages long. Then they had to add a twelve page FAQ/commentary document to add necessary rules and interactions to make the four pages of core rules kinda sorta work. It would be much the same for 10th ed 40k and, well, we can hope that GW occasionally learns from experience, right?
I'd still argue that AoS is a much more streamlined system than 40k. By no means perfect, but the states I am concerned about are all on a single warscroll
I'm not exactly in the loop on current AoS, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that because the rules designers know the limitations of their system, work within that system and don't try to overburden it with a ton of special rules? At least comparatively speaking?
Because the big issue with 8th ed and onward is that the core rules are a poor foundation for the breadth of themes the designers want to see expressed in the rules. 40k is already too streamlined to accommodate that but the designers prefer to just tack on more special rules in a million places in the hope that the final construct somehow works.
Geifer wrote: I can believe that streamlining the core rules some more is a bogus rumor. What's there to streamline about it any further?
It seems especially suspect since they specifically called out the over-streamlining of 8th as a problem when they introduced 9th. They mentioned terrain as one area they went too far with at the time. I'd be surprised if they tried to streamline the core rules again.
I'd be less surprised if they streamlined the Codeices and strats, WLT and relics in some way. That's where a lot of the current bloat is really problematic.
Yeah, I could maybe see them try that, but would they refrain from immediately heaping more stuff back on and end up right back where they started? Rulesets expand over time. That's just the way it is and not even unique to GW. But the speed with which the designers bloated the game since 8th ed is legendary, and frankly was entirely foreseeable from the moment GW previewed the rules in the lead up to 8th ed.
If they're trying to rein in the bloat without tackling the underlying issues, I don't think it's going to be a much different experience than the previous edition.
Whitefang over on The Grand Alliance called out these three items specifically as false:
>Core rules are streamlined
>Psychic Phase and Command Phase are combined
>Toughness is now only on datasheets with a [Heavy Armour] keyword ability. E.g Terminators, Rhinos, Dreadnoughts etc. Generic troops now only roll to hit when attacking and save when defending.
Whitefang has a really, really good(albeit annoyingly cryptic) track record despite primarily being AoS rumors.
Kanluwen wrote: Whitefang over on The Grand Alliance called out these three items specifically as false:
>Core rules are streamlined
>Psychic Phase and Command Phase are combined
>Toughness is now only on datasheets with a [Heavy Armour] keyword ability. E.g Terminators, Rhinos, Dreadnoughts etc. Generic troops now only roll to hit when attacking and save when defending.
Whitefang has a really, really good(albeit annoyingly cryptic) track record despite primarily being AoS rumors.
Added to the OP, with source & link. Because i'm nice like that.
Dr. Mills wrote: I'm hoping they say 'feth it' and reintroduce D4, D8, D10, D12 rolls/dice rather than 2D6+2 nonsense.
Straight dice roll. Easy. Can make tough armour tough again, such as Terminator armour being 3+ but on a D12 or something, with the fallback to 5++ on a D6 if hit with something hilariously big.
It would even benefit simple troops, such as guardsmen, would be 5+ still, but on a D8 so a straight 50/50. Hell, there's so much granularity you could have that would address issues of a straight D6 system...
They will be proprietary GW d9s, copyrighted, trademarked and patented.
Mark my words.
It will be a D8 that starts at 2.
No, they'll have faction specific D6's. Which will actually be D8's with extra 6's for Space Marines and extra 1's for Orks. They can do a whole range of different results for each faction with specialty GW dice! Or may 1 extra 6 and another side that says "roll again", since there isn't enough of that already.
Geifer wrote: I can believe that streamlining the core rules some more is a bogus rumor. What's there to streamline about it any further?
It seems especially suspect since they specifically called out the over-streamlining of 8th as a problem when they introduced 9th. They mentioned terrain as one area they went too far with at the time. I'd be surprised if they tried to streamline the core rules again.
I'd be less surprised if they streamlined the Codeices and strats, WLT and relics in some way. That's where a lot of the current bloat is really problematic.
Yeah, I could maybe see them try that, but would they refrain from immediately heaping more stuff back on and end up right back where they started? Rulesets expand over time. That's just the way it is and not even unique to GW. But the speed with which the designers bloated the game since 8th ed is legendary, and frankly was entirely foreseeable from the moment GW previewed the rules in the lead up to 8th ed.
If they're trying to rein in the bloat without tackling the underlying issues, I don't think it's going to be a much different experience than the previous edition.
The bloat isn't a bug; it's a feature.
Every edition it's the same stupid story: "oh, there's too many special rules, too many books, we need to start over to make things easier for players..." and so they promptly release a new edition, throw out a Space Marine codex and start over with the same thing only different in a multitude of tiny, almost meaningless ways.
The entire rules cycle is driven by the company's overwhelming need to create an ever-larger bucket of profit for the shareholders.
No-one would be more delighted than me if 10th edition turned out to be a modern rewrite from the ground up that was actually fun to play with a wealth of in-game options for both players at every step of the game. But it won't. It'll be a heap of small changes that are almost impossible for my middle-aged brain to differentiate from editions past, some extra randomization (because hey, it's so cinematic! What will the dice do next? They could show almost ANYTHING!!!) and yet another treadmill-like bloat cycle of overpriced rulebooks that are out of date before you can even finish painting an army.
Man, every day I'm more grateful that I decided to sell off my Apocalypse-sized Nid army last year. Bring on the refresh! And please give us new Gaunts. Please...
leopard wrote: thinking about it, if the "to wound" roll goes this is a massive buff to any horde shooting army like say Imperial Guard..
basically it can work in historical games where everyone is equally squishy and weapons are equally lethal if they hit - so all that matters is "did you hit?" and "do they have effective armour?"
but not sure the idea of the best anti infantry weapon being the las gun because of how many you bring working is going to be fun
Well that would be depending on values. Those lasguns doing that damage on say 6+ is not so hot now is it?
I presume you weren't expecting current bs and that's it?
of course
the more dice you roll and the more often you roll them the more time it takes
the same the more often you touch a model to move it
increase the number if dice to roll because the game already takes too long has therefore the opposite effect (even if out sounds reasonable to roll more dice to compensate more models)
hence re-rolls, always wound on 6 (because if you have the chance you do it), moving outside the movement phase, and higher rate of fire increase the time needed to play without a real benefit for the game
specially if the game is won by scenario as it does not matter if half the models are dead or all of them
For this case, if GW does not re-write 40k from scratch, and I really mean this not like 8th were they took half of the old rules to save time, it won't get better but worse (no matter if there are Index or not)
Geifer wrote: I can believe that streamlining the core rules some more is a bogus rumor. What's there to streamline about it any further? Remember that the peak of GW's streamlining efforts were the core rules of AoS's release version, proudly marketed as being only four pages long. Then they had to add a twelve page FAQ/commentary document to add necessary rules and interactions to make the four pages of core rules kinda sorta work. It would be much the same for 10th ed 40k and, well, we can hope that GW occasionally learns from experience, right?
I'd still argue that AoS is a much more streamlined system than 40k. By no means perfect, but the states I am concerned about are all on a single warscroll
I'm not exactly in the loop on current AoS, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that because the rules designers know the limitations of their system, work within that system and don't try to overburden it with a ton of special rules? At least comparatively speaking?
Because the big issue with 8th ed and onward is that the core rules are a poor foundation for the breadth of themes the designers want to see expressed in the rules. 40k is already too streamlined to accommodate that but the designers prefer to just tack on more special rules in a million places in the hope that the final construct somehow works.
AoS has no toughness and you rarely measure any of your stats against an incoming stat(like Strength v. Toughness). AoS is also much less inclined to give stuff rend(ap in AoS).You can get maybe -1 rend but only the big toys and heroes can get a better rend.
So honestly the rumors kind of make me feel that 40k might go more AoS than 40k. Only time will tell though.
Added to the OP, with source & link. Because i'm nice like that.
You're doing great with this thread! For some reason, my browser doesn't like their direct-linking or I'd have given you one rather than just the quote.
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drbored wrote: Yeah, now that Whitefang has weighed in, I'm content to let all that bunk die off.
Importantly, he only quoted the rule change stuff, but left other stuff untouched.
So Dark Mech and new xenos still on the table...
Given the generally cryptic nature of Whitefang's posts, I'm willing to think that it might be the specific contents of those changes.
AoS has no toughness and you rarely measure any of your stats against an incoming stat(like Strength v. Toughness). AoS is also much less inclined to give stuff rend(ap in AoS).You can get maybe -1 rend but only the big toys and heroes can get a better rend.
So honestly the rumors kind of make me feel that 40k might go more AoS than 40k. Only time will tell though.
I really hope not. Having both fixed to hit and fixed to wound roll is pointless. In AOS you have interesting weapon choices like choosing between 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound and 4+ to hit and 3+ to wound...
Getting rid of Strength vs Toughness would massively narrow the design space that allows different weapons to be effective against different targets, which in turn would remove large chunk of tactics.
drbored wrote: Yeah, now that Whitefang has weighed in, I'm content to let all that bunk die off.
Well that's a bit of good news for a change.
Aecus Decimus wrote: On the good side it means you won't have to complain about Hammer of the Emperor Born Soldiers anymore!
Thanks?
The_Real_Chris wrote: That lethality is necessary though for game length and model density. Changing it is the only way to push up one or push down the other.
You in the market for bridges? I have a few to sell!
Crimson wrote: Getting rid of Strength vs Toughness would massively narrow the design space that allows different weapons to be effective against different targets, which in turn would remove large chunk of tactics.
Silver lining: We wouldn't need 40+ different types of Bolters.
AoS has no toughness and you rarely measure any of your stats against an incoming stat(like Strength v. Toughness). AoS is also much less inclined to give stuff rend(ap in AoS).You can get maybe -1 rend but only the big toys and heroes can get a better rend.
So honestly the rumors kind of make me feel that 40k might go more AoS than 40k. Only time will tell though.
I really hope not. Having both fixed to hit and fixed to wound roll is pointless. In AOS you have interesting weapon choices like choosing between 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound and 4+ to hit and 3+ to wound...
Getting rid of Strength vs Toughness would massively narrow the design space that allows different weapons to be effective against different targets, which in turn would remove large chunk of tactics.
I'm still not a huge fan of the way Age of Sigmar handles it. If I'm swinging an axe, I should not have the same chance of hurting a massive dragon as I do a goblin.
Geifer wrote: I can believe that streamlining the core rules some more is a bogus rumor. What's there to streamline about it any further?
It seems especially suspect since they specifically called out the over-streamlining of 8th as a problem when they introduced 9th. They mentioned terrain as one area they went too far with at the time. I'd be surprised if they tried to streamline the core rules again.
I'd be less surprised if they streamlined the Codeices and strats, WLT and relics in some way. That's where a lot of the current bloat is really problematic.
Yeah, I could maybe see them try that, but would they refrain from immediately heaping more stuff back on and end up right back where they started? Rulesets expand over time. That's just the way it is and not even unique to GW. But the speed with which the designers bloated the game since 8th ed is legendary, and frankly was entirely foreseeable from the moment GW previewed the rules in the lead up to 8th ed.
If they're trying to rein in the bloat without tackling the underlying issues, I don't think it's going to be a much different experience than the previous edition.
The bloat isn't a bug; it's a feature.
Every edition it's the same stupid story: "oh, there's too many special rules, too many books, we need to start over to make things easier for players..." and so they promptly release a new edition, throw out a Space Marine codex and start over with the same thing only different in a multitude of tiny, almost meaningless ways.
The entire rules cycle is driven by the company's overwhelming need to create an ever-larger bucket of profit for the shareholders.
No-one would be more delighted than me if 10th edition turned out to be a modern rewrite from the ground up that was actually fun to play with a wealth of in-game options for both players at every step of the game. But it won't. It'll be a heap of small changes that are almost impossible for my middle-aged brain to differentiate from editions past, some extra randomization (because hey, it's so cinematic! What will the dice do next? They could show almost ANYTHING!!!) and yet another treadmill-like bloat cycle of overpriced rulebooks that are out of date before you can even finish painting an army.
This. GW very rarely do big changes to their games, because they don't want to do something that causes sales to decline. Last time they did a radical change which resulted in poor sales it killed off what had been a 3rd core game system... Epic. So unless the game was on life support (WFB), GW are not.going to take massive risks with changing the system too much. 8th/9th isn't that different from 3rd edition. Still a lot of the old DNA in there.
2nd to 3rd was a radical change, but done to shift the game from a skirmish level to a platoon level game.
10th will be a series of minor tweaks here and there. Still going to be IGOUGO, still going to have the same phases, still going to use a D6, still going to have the same weapon types, etc... Still going to be claimed to be the best edition ever, and make GW a lot of money.
And it will use GW propietary measurements. Because the need to protect their IP the designers will drop those uncopyrightable inches in exchange for a set of random characters painted on a stick that will be online only at FW's prices.
And people will say it was the best decision ever.
From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
Dudeface wrote: From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
There is nothing really odd here, the numbers add up for an Indomitus style box, the names fit GWs naming sense, even the Overlord isn't unexpexted as Primaris finally get a flyer even if its a LoW.
Also fits other rumors close enough to be possible (Primaris Terminators instead of normal Terminators, Norn-Maleceptrix instead of Norn-Emissary)
But that also means it could just be taking old leaks, changing them slightly and adding some wishlist items like Scouts
Also why would they name every unit and weapon but then only say three big monsters for Tyranids? That sounds like "I can't think of any more names so I'll just write big monsters"
If these rumours are true, then the distinction between firstborn and Primaris is going nowhere. I hope the codexes will still allow fielding firstborn though, hell freezes over before I switch to Primaris, GW will lose me as a 40K player when that happens.
"Three big monsters for nids" might mean that they are not part of the first release wave. Generally, the further a release is, the less detailed the rumours about it are
AoS has no toughness and you rarely measure any of your stats against an incoming stat(like Strength v. Toughness). AoS is also much less inclined to give stuff rend(ap in AoS).You can get maybe -1 rend but only the big toys and heroes can get a better rend.
So honestly the rumors kind of make me feel that 40k might go more AoS than 40k. Only time will tell though.
I really hope not. Having both fixed to hit and fixed to wound roll is pointless. In AOS you have interesting weapon choices like choosing between 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound and 4+ to hit and 3+ to wound...
Getting rid of Strength vs Toughness would massively narrow the design space that allows different weapons to be effective against different targets, which in turn would remove large chunk of tactics.
What you think about AoS “wound roll” is the same I thought when returned to 40K after 15 years but concerning to melee Hit rolls. I have never understood why an Ork boy can hit on 3+ both an imperial guard and a primarch or a great demon.
That is one of the reasons why some units have some kind of rules such transhuman for wounding/hitting, -1 to wounding/hit,…
Other thing I never understood is the removing of initiative from the datasheets. It was perfectly clear who fight first in a duel without stupid rules like “this unit fight FIRST” (even against primarch), “this unit fight LAST”, “the unit fight when all units from your army had fought”,…
Added to the OP, with source & link. Because i'm nice like that.
You're doing great with this thread! For some reason, my browser doesn't like their direct-linking or I'd have given you one rather than just the quote.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: Yeah, now that Whitefang has weighed in, I'm content to let all that bunk die off.
Importantly, he only quoted the rule change stuff, but left other stuff untouched.
So Dark Mech and new xenos still on the table...
Given the generally cryptic nature of Whitefang's posts, I'm willing to think that it might be the specific contents of those changes.
It was no bother to add the link, i''m fine with looking stuff like that up for myself as long as you provide a source that is specific enough that i can search for it, which you did I understand that some people browse by phone or from some other device where they can't always provide links or pictures etc. themselves. It's all good.
Dudeface wrote:From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
I will add this last week or two has been the most excited I've been in ages for the hobby. I'm happy to have something unknown and meaty to chew over and think about, the last time we had this sort of spillage was the year long release schedule from last year.
There is nothing really odd here, the numbers add up for an Indomitus style box, the names fit GWs naming sense, even the Overlord isn't unexpexted as Primaris finally get a flyer even if its a LoW.
Also fits other rumors close enough to be possible (Primaris Terminators instead of normal Terminators, Norn-Maleceptrix instead of Norn-Emissary)
But that also means it could just be taking old leaks, changing them slightly and adding some wishlist items like Scouts
Also why would they name every unit and weapon but then only say three big monsters for Tyranids? That sounds like "I can't think of any more names so I'll just write big monsters"
Some small doubty-bits:
The Overlord Dropship has been described in one of the earliest novels that dealt with Primaris, one that gave us descriptions of some of the new Necron and Primaris units before they appeared on the Tabletop. Fall of Damnos i think it was - and the Overlord is described as larger than a thunderhawk, with about double the transport capacity, more void shields and more armaments. That being said, the book is very old and they could easily have retconned that to a more table-friendly thing.
Edit: it was 'Dark Imperium' that dealt with the Overlord, not Fall of Damnos.
Lexicanum describes it like this:
Like Blackstars, Overlords possess twin transport bays with their own assault doors, but they're considerably bigger and even more blessed with advanced technologies like energy shields.[1] The cockpit sits between the two halves of the double fuselage.[2]
Armament
An Overlord is equipped with anti-munitions cannons, wing-mounted Desolator Lascannons, nose-mounted Melta Cannons and Heavy Bolters fixed on its lower wing surfaces.[1] In addition, a variety of missiles can be mounted to the wings, and the flanks of the Overlord are studded with crewed weapons bubbles containing heavy guns. The wings may be tipped with gatling las.[2]
Transport Capacity
An Overlord can transport at least eighty Primaris Space Marines.[2] During the Battle of Ardium, an Overlord transported one early-pattern Space Marine and thirty-nine Primaris Space Marines, some of which were wearing Mk X Gravis Armour,[1] while an Overlord attached to Fleet Tertius of the Indomitus Crusade carried forty Primaris Marines (fifteen of which were Aggressors in heavy Gravis plate) in each of its twin holds during a boarding action.[2]
Other than that: that's a lot of new stuff for the 'nids, and would mean a range refresh and extension that is much larger than what the Necrons got, even if some stuff stayed exclusive to the starter box for now. Not totally unbelievable, but surely not to be taken lightly. Individually, each entry makes sense and fits with GW's modelling and naming conventiesn, except maybe the n-th rendition of not-quite biovores, but then a variety of artillery is a thing that happens in other forces too.
Other than that: that's a lot of new stuff for the 'nids, and would mean a range refresh and extension that is much larger than what the Necrons got, even if some stuff stayed exclusive to the starter box for now. Not totally unbelievable, but surely not to be taken lightly. Individually, each entry makes sense and fits with GW's modelling and naming conventiesn, except maybe the n-th rendition of not-quite biovores, but then a variety of artillery is a thing that happens in other forces too.
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts - ????
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores - Ophidians
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex - doomstalker
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS - silent king, void dragon, monolith
-New Red Terror - reanimator
Other than that: that's a lot of new stuff for the 'nids, and would mean a range refresh and extension that is much larger than what the Necrons got, even if some stuff stayed exclusive to the starter box for now. Not totally unbelievable, but surely not to be taken lightly. Individually, each entry makes sense and fits with GW's modelling and naming conventiesn, except maybe the n-th rendition of not-quite biovores, but then a variety of artillery is a thing that happens in other forces too.
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts - ????
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores - Ophidians
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex - doomstalker
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS - silent king, void dragon, monolith
-New Red Terror - reanimator
Obviously spitballing for kit size or whatever
Yeah, if you put it like that it sure sounds reasonable I somehow assumed that the Norn-whateveress was at least Hive-Tyrant-sized, and also zoned out the fact that the box would contain no infantry besides the Genestealers Blame it on a lack of coffee
stonehorse wrote: 8th/9th isn't that different from 3rd edition. Still a lot of the old DNA in there.
thinking that way is why the game does not work well in the first place
8th is a very different game from 3rd
that with a different "to wound" table and a different AP system (not even talking about movement, weapon ranges and weapon rules for now), a T4, W1, Sv3+ model needed to become a T5, W2, Sv2+ to be similar resilient, yet it took a while that all past experience with rules, points and design are useless if rules are changed on a basic level
jut because a Bolter is still a Bolter and has a Strength and AP value does not make it "not that different"
5th was not that different from 3rd but if 8th wouldn't have been much different from 7th, it would not have convinced people from coming back
(same way you could say AoS is not that different from 4th Editon Warhammer because there is still lot if the old DNA there)
H.B.M.C. wrote: That sounds worse. Or the kit could be as simple as the Necron kit, with just two weapon options per model.
I just worry... do Tyranids need another 9 or 10 new units? And what do we lose because of this?
Obviously a lot of the armies are way beyond the point where they really 'need' anything new, but of course GW wants to sell stuff and new stuff usually sells better than rehashes of old units and concepts. The other option would be to introduce completely new armies, but that is risky. That being said, Tyranids of all things have baked-in justifications for always having new stuff and crazy varieties, so i don't really see a problem. I just hope they don't do a lazy not-Kerrigan for the Whateveress, which they'll totally do
There are some armies that do actually need stuff: Dark Eldar are missing half their range in the online store due to the material they're cast in, and Eldar Aspect Warriors still rely on sculpts that at this point are close to old enough to have children that could legally drive
Damn, I will be blown away if these rumors are true. I like the sound of the new Tyranids and the rules sound like a significant departure from the current ones. Not sure if that will be good news or bad, but I am generally on-board.
Other than that: that's a lot of new stuff for the 'nids, and would mean a range refresh and extension that is much larger than what the Necrons got, even if some stuff stayed exclusive to the starter box for now. Not totally unbelievable, but surely not to be taken lightly. Individually, each entry makes sense and fits with GW's modelling and naming conventiesn, except maybe the n-th rendition of not-quite biovores, but then a variety of artillery is a thing that happens in other forces too.
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts - ????
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores - Ophidians
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex - doomstalker
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS - silent king, void dragon, monolith
-New Red Terror - reanimator
Obviously spitballing for kit size or whatever
Necrons got even more:
Royal Warden, Chronomancer, Psychomancer, Flayed Ones, Lokhust Heavy Destroyer, Convergence of Dominion and I would also count Illuminor Szeras
So right now Necrons still got more with 19 units to Tyranids 16
Other than that: that's a lot of new stuff for the 'nids, and would mean a range refresh and extension that is much larger than what the Necrons got, even if some stuff stayed exclusive to the starter box for now. Not totally unbelievable, but surely not to be taken lightly. Individually, each entry makes sense and fits with GW's modelling and naming conventiesn, except maybe the n-th rendition of not-quite biovores, but then a variety of artillery is a thing that happens in other forces too.
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts - ????
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores - Ophidians
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex - doomstalker
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS - silent king, void dragon, monolith
-New Red Terror - reanimator
Obviously spitballing for kit size or whatever
You got the Doomstalker twice here but doesn't matter since there are still:
Royal Warden, Chronomancer, Psychomancer, Flayed Ones, Lokhust Heavy Destroyer, Convergence of Dominion and I would also count Illuminor Szeras
So right now Necrons still got more with 19 units to Tyranids 16
I did have it twice because the unit in the launch box (brofex) is included again in a separate box later, hence the same kit.
Dudeface wrote: -20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
Starter boxes tend to have simplistic minis. Would they do that with a new set of Stealers?
Assault Intercessors got easy build starter box models and a multipart kit later. The question really is if we should expect Tyranids to get so lucky, since they're not Marines. Still, the kit would be used in Genestealer Cults as well, so it has a little broader appeal than usual Xenos fare. With Genestealers occasionally featuring in board games, GW may have reason to invest in both multipart and easy build molds for use down the line.
Or GW is being cheap again and skips multipart Genestealers. Who knows?
I did have it twice because the unit in the launch box (brofex) is included again in a separate box later, hence the same kit.
You're right corrected my post
No worries, if true then brofex is going to be my favourite name for a unit.
Valrak says this may be a troll attempt, but given what some people here think of him that may add or detract validity?
It might be a troll attempt, but it's a good one if so. Me, I can't tell reality and fiction apart anymore when it comes to GW names, and nothing there looks too outlandish? Even Primaris Scouts are on the table since GW gave Black Templars Primaris Neophytes.
Genestealers are strange, they are one of those models that GW has clearly updated over the years here and there and yet they are pretty much the same poses and styles as they've been since their original release (or at least so far back that they are almost unchanged)
Overread wrote: Genestealers are strange, they are one of those models that GW has clearly updated over the years here and there and yet they are pretty much the same poses and styles as they've been since their original release (or at least so far back that they are almost unchanged)
There's only so much you can do with their general layout, and they typically don't have lot of equipment and flairy stuff that you could use to make them interesting. The Stealers from the redone Space Hulk box showed what you can do with them by posing, flair and tactical rocks etc., but that would get repetitive quite fast in larger armies and i'd not want to paint three dozen of them
There are loads of alternate poses you could do even without jumping off rocks. Just bringing their outer back hands in more would make a huge difference. They are still all running the same way they always have.
Plus there's no reason they couldn't have gained spikes, spines or other features over the years. Many other units have changed drastically over the generations.
Of course sometimes no change is good and sometimes change for the sake of change along isn't what's needed
Overread wrote: There are loads of alternate poses you could do even without jumping off rocks. Just bringing their outer back hands in more would make a huge difference. They are still all running the same way they always have.
Plus there's no reason they couldn't have gained spikes, spines or other features over the years. Many other units have changed drastically over the generations.
Of course sometimes no change is good and sometimes change for the sake of change along isn't what's needed
I think Genestealers have reached the point where they're 'classic' and every departure from how they've always been causes more backlash than it's worth. Just like e.g. Terminators, you can do endless variations in posing, bling or gear, but the core will always be a 'classic' terminator shape and silhouette.
Dudeface wrote: From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
A starter box where every single thing is a brand new unit for both sides? Has that happened before?
10+ new Primaris kits and 12+ new Tyranid kits, most of which are completely new units, sounds a bit too much to me though. That sounds like an absolutely huge addition to Primaris and range refresh for Tyranids, more than seems believable although Necrons did get a big refresh too.
Dudeface wrote: From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
A starter box where every single thing is a brand new unit for both sides? Has that happened before?
10+ new Primaris kits and 12+ new Tyranid kits, most of which are completely new units, sounds a bit too much to me though. That sounds like an absolutely huge addition to Primaris and range refresh for Tyranids, more than seems believable although Necrons did get a big refresh too.
The primaris side of 8th was their intro, so 100% new. Can’t speak for the DG half.
The 9th box had a chaplain, which was a straight existing character. You could argue about the gear options for the captain/Lt being new. Units were all new at the time. Marine side; again can’t speak for the OpFor (although the warriors were a new cut of an old unit)
A starter box where every single thing is a brand new unit for both sides? Has that happened before?
10+ new Primaris kits and 12+ new Tyranid kits, most of which are completely new units, sounds a bit too much to me though. That sounds like an absolutely huge addition to Primaris and range refresh for Tyranids, more than seems believable although Necrons did get a big refresh too.
Island of Blood was new Skaven and High Elves on both sides. It only failed because they made both the unique sets of models on the same mould so you couldn't have one without the other. It was also a series of changes that they never brought to individual release for either force as well.
Nevelon wrote: The primaris side of 8th was their intro, so 100% new. Can’t speak for the DG half.
The 9th box had a chaplain, which was a straight existing character. You could argue about the gear options for the captain/Lt being new. Units were all new at the time. Marine side; again can’t speak for the OpFor (although the warriors were a new cut of an old unit)
Scarabs, warriors and overlord existed, but new options for both, likewise the cryptek was a new flavour of cryptek and the chickens were new.
In terms of hypothetical contents that box is not outside the realm of possibility or normal. Sigmar added entirely new units for both factions in dominion as well.
"Arduanters" sounds very fake to me, can someone come out of the bushes to explain the real life historical context I am ignorant of like when Reivers were announced please? TIA
Island of Blood was new Skaven and High Elves on both sides. It only failed because they made both the unique sets of models on the same mould so you couldn't have one without the other. It was also a series of changes that they never brought to individual release for either force as well.
minor correction, they did last year as the Island of Blood Skaven are now available stand-alone as Warrior Box of 20
Billicus wrote: "Arduanters" sounds very fake to me, can someone come out of the bushes to explain the real life historical context I am ignorant of like when Reivers were announced please? TIA
Quick google:
Ardaunt is anglo-saxon of ardent, which in turn is "expressing passion/spirit/enthusiasm" or "generating heat". Bit of a tenuous link but might be to represent those who are very passionate about their duty. Likely a fake name, but a lot of them are at best loosey goosey anyway.
They had to re-design the clanrats in the stand alone box, as in Isle of blood they were designed mixed on the same spruce as everything else in the box.
Mentlegen324 wrote: A starter box where every single thing is a brand new unit for both sides? Has that happened before?
Genestealers, Lictors and a Warrior Primus aren't new units. I imagine they'll get a new datasheet but bigger scouts aren't either really.
I would say this all sounds plausible enough, but obviously the Terminator description doesn't gel with the other rumours that have made them sound like an upscaled more traditional unit (but it must be said this sort of re-invention is more consistent with GW's design approach now, even down to clumsily gluing on an extra missile launcher).
Keep in mind that an 'all new' box set wasn't ever even possible before 8th edition. Half of every box was Space Marines, and they've always supposed to be strictly attached to tactical/assault/devastator & etc.
Primaris provided a way out of that (for good or ill). Though I don't think even more new units is a good plan for SM. Especially two more stupidly interchangeable I-names (though that sadly makes this more believable)
Has the 'Leonitus Crusade' been mentioned before? Is this anything to do with the Lion? Possibly more details pointing to it being a Dark Angel themed starter set?
Do the types of infantry in this set make it seem more like a certain chapter over others?
The jump pack side of this set makes me think Blood Angels but the mix of terminator primaris and scouts makes me think it could be Dark Angels also. The DA do also like to use a combined arms approach (green wing). Then again could still be Ultramarines?
Edit:
Also anyone find it interesting there's no dread or vehicle in this? Just all infantry. Must be the terminator type guys in place of a tank?
Leonitus Crusade sounds more like a misspelling of Leontus, the new Lord Solar. Would make sense for a new character said to take direct tactical inspiration from Solar Macharius to launch his own Crusade
Tim the Biovore wrote: Leonitus Crusade sounds more like a misspelling of Leontus, the new Lord Solar. Would make sense for a new character said to take direct tactical inspiration from Solar Macharius to launch his own Crusade
Leontus is supporting the Indomitus Crusade, per the Guard book, and quite busy in the Sol Segmentum with uprisings of xeno and Chaos cults.
Regarding the new rumours:
The thing that I find hardest to believe is the Chapter Master model...unless it's a hint towards Guilliman reforming the Legions to an extent.
AoS has no toughness and you rarely measure any of your stats against an incoming stat(like Strength v. Toughness). AoS is also much less inclined to give stuff rend(ap in AoS).You can get maybe -1 rend but only the big toys and heroes can get a better rend.
So honestly the rumors kind of make me feel that 40k might go more AoS than 40k. Only time will tell though.
I really hope not. Having both fixed to hit and fixed to wound roll is pointless. In AOS you have interesting weapon choices like choosing between 3+ to hit and 4+ to wound and 4+ to hit and 3+ to wound...
Getting rid of Strength vs Toughness would massively narrow the design space that allows different weapons to be effective against different targets, which in turn would remove large chunk of tactics.
I play AoS extensively and I think it is a very balanced game for the most part(or as balanced a GW game can get). I would also say that I enjoy it more these days than 40k. If anything I'd argue that AoS would be made worse with a S v T table.
Ultimately the design space is a bit of an illusion I think. A lot of games have simplified structure and are doing fine. We also do not know what the keywords are going to be in 10th. Could very well be that tanks and other heavy duty items get keywords that mean infantry can't wound them. We'll have to see how that turns out.
Tim the Biovore wrote: Leonitus Crusade sounds more like a misspelling of Leontus, the new Lord Solar. Would make sense for a new character said to take direct tactical inspiration from Solar Macharius to launch his own Crusade
Leonatos also exists/existed and was a Blood Angels Captain that led a warband on a penitent quest into the Warp, the famed Bloodquest from the comic, and later novel, of the same name.
Tim the Biovore wrote: Leonitus Crusade sounds more like a misspelling of Leontus, the new Lord Solar. Would make sense for a new character said to take direct tactical inspiration from Solar Macharius to launch his own Crusade
Leonatos also exists/existed and was a Blood Angels Captain that led a warband on a penitent quest into the Warp, the famed Bloodquest from the comic, and later novel, of the same name.
Or maybe it's supposed to be the LEONIDUS Crusade. The Lion on Crusade?
Tim the Biovore wrote: Feels like pretty poor writing even by GW standards if the Leonitus Crusade is real so hot on the heels of a dude Leontus with no relation.
Though I guess GW aren't exactly strangers to coming up with stupid names
I think the Cthonian Berserks put any suggestion GW cares about that to bed.
Tim the Biovore wrote: Feels like pretty poor writing even by GW standards if the Leonitus Crusade is real so hot on the heels of a dude Leontus with no relation.
Though I guess GW aren't exactly strangers to coming up with stupid names
I think the Cthonian Berserks put any suggestion GW cares about that to bed.
Or the fact they named so many planets Angelis they had to make an in-universe explanation for the confusion.
Tim the Biovore wrote: Feels like pretty poor writing even by GW standards if the Leonitus Crusade is real so hot on the heels of a dude Leontus with no relation.
Though I guess GW aren't exactly strangers to coming up with stupid names
I think the Cthonian Berserks put any suggestion GW cares about that to bed.
You know that Cthonia isn't a planet they're all coming from, right?
Tim the Biovore wrote: Feels like pretty poor writing even by GW standards if the Leonitus Crusade is real so hot on the heels of a dude Leontus with no relation.
Though I guess GW aren't exactly strangers to coming up with stupid names
I think the Cthonian Berserks put any suggestion GW cares about that to bed.
You know that Cthonia isn't a planet they're all coming from, right?
To be fair, that would not be the most outlandish assumption to make, given that Cthonia is an actual planet of importance in the setting
Dudeface wrote: From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
A starter box where every single thing is a brand new unit for both sides? Has that happened before?
10+ new Primaris kits and 12+ new Tyranid kits, most of which are completely new units, sounds a bit too much to me though. That sounds like an absolutely huge addition to Primaris and range refresh for Tyranids, more than seems believable although Necrons did get a big refresh too.
Genestealers isn't new unit.
If you mean sculpt about every edition launch...9e, 8e, 6e,5e. 4e, 3e. 7e wasn't as it was 6e again.
Dudeface wrote: From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
A starter box where every single thing is a brand new unit for both sides? Has that happened before?
10+ new Primaris kits and 12+ new Tyranid kits, most of which are completely new units, sounds a bit too much to me though. That sounds like an absolutely huge addition to Primaris and range refresh for Tyranids, more than seems believable although Necrons did get a big refresh too.
Genestealers isn't new unit.
If you mean sculpt about every edition launch...9e, 8e, 6e,5e. 4e, 3e. 7e wasn't as it was 6e again.
I had originally put "model" but, for some reason, I edited it to "unit".
Island of Blood was new Skaven and High Elves on both sides. It only failed because they made both the unique sets of models on the same mould so you couldn't have one without the other. It was also a series of changes that they never brought to individual release for either force as well.
minor correction, they did last year as the Island of Blood Skaven are now available stand-alone as Warrior Box of 20
Island of Blood used pre-existing Clanrat sculpts for the Skaven infantry; the only difference is the IoB ones had the shield sculpted on instead of separate like in the full (pre-existing) kit. That said, it was/is a kit everyone was happy with and no one wanted it to change at all, so there was no desire or reason to alter it from GW or customers.
Other sculpts from IoB... well take a look on ebay to see the insane markups they go for now. Speaks for itself really.
Dudeface wrote: From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
A starter box where every single thing is a brand new unit for both sides? Has that happened before?
10+ new Primaris kits and 12+ new Tyranid kits, most of which are completely new units, sounds a bit too much to me though. That sounds like an absolutely huge addition to Primaris and range refresh for Tyranids, more than seems believable although Necrons did get a big refresh too.
Genestealers isn't new unit.
If you mean sculpt about every edition launch...9e, 8e, 6e,5e. 4e, 3e. 7e wasn't as it was 6e again.
I had originally put "model" but, for some reason, I edited it to "unit".
Well edition starters are usually brand new sculpts. 7e was exception as it copied 6e contents minus books.
How have Genestealers gotten so many sculpts and yet they look like garbo with thick mold lines and flakes of flash, AND they're still on undersized bases...?
But anyway. We likely wont see if there's any confirmation of these rumors until we get potato cam pics or teasers from Adepticon.
I find it convenient that this big chunk of rumors drops at the same day as a price increase tho.
drbored wrote: How have Genestealers gotten so many sculpts and yet they look like garbo with thick mold lines and flakes of flash, AND they're still on undersized bases...?
But anyway. We likely wont see if there's any confirmation of these rumors until we get potato cam pics or teasers from Adepticon.
I find it convenient that this big chunk of rumors drops at the same day as a price increase tho.
I'd add that rumours say no teases for 10th at Adepticon, we should be expecting a Lion teaser.
Dudeface wrote: From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
*sigh*
I just can't get on board with the thought of any Primaris kits after the last disaster. I really hope it was a one off and they re-found their restraint.
lost_lilliputian wrote: After the reaction to those recently previewed ugly missile launcher primaris, lots of people said why couldn't they be shoulder mounted instead.
So I found this part interesting in the new starter set rumours:
'- 3 Primaris Instigators (Primaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)'
Part of it is confusion. Way back at the beginning of 8th, Dark Imperium was accompanied by a novel, obviously also titled 'Dark Imperium.' Amidst the random plodge of an opening sequence in some random city on a random world, there were primaris marines with shoulder mounted missile launchers that... never happened in model form. So people have been expecting that for awhile, so the nerf launchers came as an extra special bad surprise, because GW had created the expectation of something different.
As an aside, Pariah nexus also had a novel with models that never happened, (skorpekh necrons with guns, iirc; and drop pods for the primaris bikers), apparently the fiction team and the model team don't communicate well. Don't know if the writing team got told about model ideas that were later scrapped or what, but I fully expect a forthcoming novel with tyranid creatures that don't exist.
lost_lilliputian wrote: After the reaction to those recently previewed ugly missile launcher primaris, lots of people said why couldn't they be shoulder mounted instead.
So I found this part interesting in the new starter set rumours:
'- 3 Primaris Instigators (Primaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)'
Part of it is confusion. Way back at the beginning of 8th, Dark Imperium was accompanied by a novel, obviously also titled 'Dark Imperium.' Amidst the random plodge of an opening sequence in some random city on a random world, there were primaris marines with shoulder mounted missile launchers that... never happened in model form. So people have been expecting that for awhile, so the nerf launchers came as an extra special bad surprise, because GW had created the expectation of something different.
As an aside, Pariah nexus also had a novel with models that never happened, (skorpekh necrons with guns, iirc; and drop pods for the primaris bikers), apparently the fiction team and the model team don't communicate well. Don't know if the writing team got told about model ideas that were later scrapped or what, but I fully expect a forthcoming novel with tyranid creatures that don't exist.
It's not limited to models. iirc there were units described in the Ultramarines and other supplements that never became things.
lost_lilliputian wrote: After the reaction to those recently previewed ugly missile launcher primaris, lots of people said why couldn't they be shoulder mounted instead.
So I found this part interesting in the new starter set rumours:
'- 3 Primaris Instigators (Primaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)'
Part of it is confusion. Way back at the beginning of 8th, Dark Imperium was accompanied by a novel, obviously also titled 'Dark Imperium.' Amidst the random plodge of an opening sequence in some random city on a random world, there were primaris marines with shoulder mounted missile launchers that... never happened in model form. So people have been expecting that for awhile, so the nerf launchers came as an extra special bad surprise, because GW had created the expectation of something different.
As an aside, Pariah nexus also had a novel with models that never happened, (skorpekh necrons with guns, iirc; and drop pods for the primaris bikers), apparently the fiction team and the model team don't communicate well. Don't know if the writing team got told about model ideas that were later scrapped or what, but I fully expect a forthcoming novel with tyranid creatures that don't exist.
Oh I see, ok well yes I get the extra salt now why people were even more down on the ugly previews, especially if they thought shoulder mounted ones were coming.
If these new rumours are true then at least shoulder mounted grav cannons should look better than the hip missle cables are us primaris.
Unfortunately though... The price hike will hit long before the new starter sets are out so hoping at least the starter sets will be good value.
Dudeface wrote: From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
*sigh*
I just can't get on board with the thought of any Primaris kits after the last disaster. I really hope it was a one off and they re-found their restraint.
There was a comment on reddit somewhere from Peachy who claimed the desolators were painted in 2021 and had been sat around waiting to be done/released for a couple of years at that point. Kinda feels like they're the last of the "range reboot" bad idea pile.
Dudeface wrote: From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
*sigh*
I just can't get on board with the thought of any Primaris kits after the last disaster. I really hope it was a one off and they re-found their restraint.
I totally agree. I used to be a fan of Primaris when they initially launched, but I’m liking them less and less. These day my favourite marines are HH beakies. I’d rather have more infantry kits for them than any number of new Primaris kits.
If they're really going to be adding the equivalents of assault marines, terminators, scouts, and stormravens to the absurdly bloated codex, it might be time to move Firstborn out of it and into Legends where they belong. Writing so many versions of "They're like [N], but *better*!" has to be taking a toll on the poor apes writing the rules, too.
And don't get me wrong, I don't hate all the Primaris, even though I still don't own any. I really like Aggressors and Inceptors, Eliminators and Eradicators, since they didn't feel so obviously like attempts to redo existing units in a new style. Still despise the look of the tanks, though.
Dudeface wrote: From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
*sigh*
I just can't get on board with the thought of any Primaris kits after the last disaster. I really hope it was a one off and they re-found their restraint.
I totally agree. I used to be a fan of Primaris when they initially launched, but I’m liking them less and less. These day my favourite marines are HH beakies. I’d rather have more infantry kits for them than any number of new Primaris kits.
I thought when Primaris Interecessors came out, they looked quite nice, aside from their helmet which felt a bit meh. However, seeing how the Primaris range has evolved has been cringe for me, first they tried tacking on "gothic bling" in the Bladeguard vets which theoretically sounds fine, but resulted in flanderisque conflicted mess.. Then we got the Primariokart (serious WTF) and the GI Joe "cannon with seat".. Its like someone designing Primaris has a hardon for Action figues and He-Man aesthetics.. Now these missile launchers with cables guys are turning things up to 11.. I have zero hope for the new 10th ed Primaris to be honest.
All in all, I feel like GW has "lost its way" when it comes to Space Marines.. They should just stick to re-releasing the classic Firstborn era designs (MKI - MKVIII) with 2023 proportions if they cannot design anything new without losing the essence of Space Marine armour design. Primaris feels like knockoffs of GW Marines, instead of being the real deal.
If I was tasked to steer Primaris model development further, I'd tell the sculptors to lean more into the things you see in Gravis units like Eradicators, Phobos units, Suppressors and Eliminators. And stop watching GI Joe and He-Man FFS!
All in all, I feel like GW has "lost its way" when it comes to Space Marines.. They should just stick to re-releasing the classic Firstborn era designs (MKI - MKVIII) with 2023 proportions if they cannot design anything new without losing the essence of Space Marine armour design. Primaris feels like knockoffs of GW Marines, instead of being the real deal.
If I was tasked to steer Primaris model development further, I'd tell the sculptors to lean more into the things you see in Gravis units like Eradicators, Phobos units, Suppressors and Eliminators. And stop watching GI Joe and He-Man FFS!
YMMV as usual
Imho 'knockoff' is exactly like they feel. It's like back when pokemon were all the rage, and you could stroll over any flea market and see dozens of cheaply-made T-Shirts or beach towels with weird quasi-pokemon in off colours, mixes of two existing pokemon designs and so on. Only a handful of Primaris sculpts feel 'authentic' and organic to the setting, most just look like they were made in some backwater sweatshop by people unfamiliar to the setting.
GW needs to learn when less is more. There are plenty of ways that this concept, heavily armed missile armed Primaris marines could work.
Using real world weapons as a basis we could easily develop the concept of the Marine based shoulder launched Missile launcher, style it after the M202 Flash, with either 2 or 4 cells depending on the missile option. Have their power pack carry several spare missiles attached to it. Remove the extra cables and the belt feed. Separate the Rocket pod into a separate optional weapon system if you want to add rocket marines. Then give them a fairly large brace of rockets to resupply their launchers.
If you want to go further into this tacticool option for them, slap on pouches for ammunition for their guns, since the majority of Marines seem to carry enough shots for maybe 30 seconds of combat and then they'd need to resupply. (Big reason for why I don't mind modeling ammunition pouches onto their belts and attaching spare magazines to them. You don't need to slap on 3 different weapon systems to make a new model, but you can slap on some additional sensors, give them options between weapons and exploit the larger scale of these marines by making them look like they have enough ammunition to engage in the battle they're currently taking part in.
Dudeface wrote: From the WE discord, no idea if it's the same people who gave us the WE info early. If it is then high reliability, if not then it all seems very plausible but not impossible to be a wishlist:
Spoiler:
More info on 10th Edition
>New Starter Box Contents: Leonitus Crusade
SPACE MARINES
-1 Primaris Chapter Master (Think Gravis but not haunched over, armed with Power Sword and bolt pistol)
-1 Primaris Prosecutor (armed with a two-handed axe)
-1 Primaris Noviate Master (Scout Master, armed with Sniper Rifle)
-10 Primaris Space Marine Intervectors (Jump Pack Primaris, have bolter gauntlets)
-5 Primaris Noviates (New Primaris Scouts, armed with Hellblast Shotguns)
-3 Primaris Arduanters (New Primaris Terminators, equipped with Graviton Hammers and Shields, in new type of Gravis Armor)
-3 Primaris Instigators (Pimaris with shoulder mounted Grav Cannons)
TYRANIDS
-1 Norn-Maleceptrix (Big brain bug, lesser incarnation of the Norn-Queen, able to "evolve" units. Semi-feminine???)
-1 Tyranid Primus (Big warrior, has two Devourers, a large sword and a claw-whip, boosts)
-1 Lictor (New evloved form of Lictor)
-2 Magistraunt (Strange mix of venomthropes and Pyrovore)
-20 Genestealers (New kit, has an options for armored plates and acid-claws)
-1 Cerebrofex (Think blend of Carnifex and Zoanthroap, smaller Maleceptor)
-3 Genehunters (New breed of warriors, designed to be even better shock troopers, made with Space Marine Geneseeds they literally eat.)
New Kits Tyranid kits:
-New models for Termagaunts and Hormagaunts, dual kit
-New Models for Biovores and Pyrovores, dual kit that now comes in threes
-New dual kit of Cerebrofex and new super-carnifex (Genetics based off old One Eye)
-THREE NEW BIG MONSTER KITS (They say that most Nid players like their big monsters)
-New Red Terror
New Marine Kits:
-Plethora of new Characters to represent old command structure (Think the old resin character models, each one buffs a specific)
-New flying LoW called "Overlord Dropship", think a smaller Thunderhawk
-New Demolisher Tank,
-New "Veteran" unit of Assault Intercessors
-Arduant Kits can make classic Powerfist and Bolter, but with each get a missile launcher on top)
*sigh*
I just can't get on board with the thought of any Primaris kits after the last disaster. I really hope it was a one off and they re-found their restraint.
I totally agree. I used to be a fan of Primaris when they initially launched, but I’m liking them less and less. These day my favourite marines are HH beakies. I’d rather have more infantry kits for them than any number of new Primaris kits.
I thought when Primaris Interecessors came out, they looked quite nice, aside from their helmet which felt a bit meh. However, seeing how the Primaris range has evolved has been cringe for me, first they tried tacking on "gothic bling" in the Bladeguard vets which theoretically sounds fine, but resulted in flanderisque conflicted mess.. Then we got the Primariokart (serious WTF) and the GI Joe "cannon with seat".. Its like someone designing Primaris has a hardon for Action figues and He-Man aesthetics.. Now these missile launchers with cables guys are turning things up to 11.. I have zero hope for the new 10th ed Primaris to be honest.
All in all, I feel like GW has "lost its way" when it comes to Space Marines.. They should just stick to re-releasing the classic Firstborn era designs (MKI - MKVIII) with 2023 proportions if they cannot design anything new without losing the essence of Space Marine armour design. Primaris feels like knockoffs of GW Marines, instead of being the real deal.
If I was tasked to steer Primaris model development further, I'd tell the sculptors to lean more into the things you see in Gravis units like Eradicators, Phobos units, Suppressors and Eliminators. And stop watching GI Joe and He-Man FFS!
YMMV as usual
So remove bling and replace it with bling.
Bling for marines isn't new. It's decades old thing.
panzerfront14 wrote: If you want to go further into this tacticool option for them, slap on pouches for ammunition for their guns, since the majority of Marines seem to carry enough shots for maybe 30 seconds of combat and then they'd need to resupply. (Big reason for why I don't mind modeling ammunition pouches onto their belts and attaching spare magazines to them. You don't need to slap on 3 different weapon systems to make a new model, but you can slap on some additional sensors, give them options between weapons and exploit the larger scale of these marines by making them look like they have enough ammunition to engage in the battle they're currently taking part in.
LESS IS MORE.
The main thing the designers need to learn is that "tacticool" is never actually cool...
They're intercessors holding a gun, they're about as basic as a space marine can be. The model taken as a whole isn't really any different from the hellblasters. Even the weapons themselves are just an update on the old Space Crusade missile launcher. These aren't great but people are massively exaggerating their flaws.
JSG wrote: They're intercessors holding a gun, they're about as basic as a space marine can be. The model taken as a whole isn't really any different from the hellblasters. Even the weapons themselves are just an update on the old Space Crusade missile launcher. These aren't great but people are massively exaggerating their flaws.
I imagine the missile boyos would have been received much better if they had simply been Intercessors with high definition versions of the Space Crusade missile launcher.
No doubt. It was the confusing combination of two different kinds of missile launch mechanisms into the same weapon, as well as the overall proportions, that was the main sticking point for criticism, from what I've seen.
JSG wrote: They're intercessors holding a gun, they're about as basic as a space marine can be. The model taken as a whole isn't really any different from the hellblasters. Even the weapons themselves are just an update on the old Space Crusade missile launcher. These aren't great but people are massively exaggerating their flaws.
The core flaw with the Desolation Squad is I have to look way to closely at the weapon to figure out what the it is supposed to be. In fact, I was just looking at them and I still don't get what they are. Belt-fed rapid-fire mini-missile launchers with three different options of bigger missile launchers attached to them?
JSG wrote: They're intercessors holding a gun, they're about as basic as a space marine can be. The model taken as a whole isn't really any different from the hellblasters. Even the weapons themselves are just an update on the old Space Crusade missile launcher. These aren't great but people are massively exaggerating their flaws.
The core flaw with the Desolation Squad is I have to look way to closely at the weapon to figure out what the it is supposed to be. In fact, I was just looking at them and I still don't get what they are. Belt-fed rapid-fire mini-missile launchers with three different options of bigger missile launchers attached to them?
Primaris have definitely grown on me but they lack the charm and appeal of the old stuff. In a way it's like they've become completely soulless with their aesthetic
Wayniac wrote: Primaris have definitely grown on me but they lack the charm and appeal of the old stuff. In a way it's like they've become completely soulless with their aesthetic
They look like you took one of these image-generating AIs, fed it with marine pictures, and told it to churn out variations on that theme.
Wayniac wrote: Primaris have definitely grown on me but they lack the charm and appeal of the old stuff. In a way it's like they've become completely soulless with their aesthetic
They look like you took one of these image-generating AIs, fed it with marine pictures, and told it to churn out variations on that theme.
That’s it exactly. Like they’re just adding random stuff hoping that, if they add enough, it’ll eventually look cool.
If I actually played 40K, I’d be very tempted to make a marine army using just 30k kits. Beakies, 30k Landraiders and contemptors feel far more like 40K to me than any of the Primaris marines and their disgustingly ugly vehicles.
(Probably because Rogue Trader is the only edition of 40k I’ve actually played )
Wayniac wrote: Primaris have definitely grown on me but they lack the charm and appeal of the old stuff. In a way it's like they've become completely soulless with their aesthetic
As opposed to what? Sticking random purity seals and eagles everywhere?
Some of the Primaris range are definite duds. But all of it feeling "soulless" is simply because they don't have excessive amounts of random grimdark stuck on them. And good for that! If you want the grimdark stuff, play a Chapter that's known for it. I'm glad to not have to spend hours filing crap off of the Phobos kits for my Raven Guard.
That's not it at all. Primaris look like amateur modeling attempts. The turret, the gocart, the random guns everywhere but somehow never really impressive - every vehicle has to have a marine head poking out. Dudes right - it's like they fed marines into ai art generators. Even down to the "it has to have the iconic helmet, somewhere" even if it's just a dudes head poking out of a land speeder doomraiderlord.
30k kits have LESS grimdark and are still vastly superior. Less, not none (before someone tries that.)
JSG wrote: This is just old men ranting and trying to convince each other they're being objective.
Sooner or later your pant-waist will rise above your navel, you will wear the flannel of old age and give in to the temptation to complain to no-one in particular... look into your pantry, you know it to be prunes!
JSG wrote: This is just old men ranting and trying to convince each other they're being objective.
Sooner or later your pant-waist will rise above your navel, you will wear the flannel of old age and give in to the temptation to complain to no-one in particular... look into your pantry, you know it to be prunes!
tneva82 wrote: So gw makes bigger marines and it turns into ugly. Lol. Basic primaries/blade guard/hellblasters etc are just what they were bar height and rules.
(well initially less bling though with 9e got more back to what it was before primaris>
I started playing around the time of the Primaris launch and find the distaste for them to be bewildering.
The lore was kind of goofy but I don't see what people prefer about the old marines? Is it the frowny faceplate? The dumpy proportions?
The pre-Primaris DA/BA/SW specific units had more charm, but it seems clear GW is bringing back the chapter specific/grim dark aesthetic with new releases – first the Bladeguard, then the Black Templars, presumably the DA/BA in short order.
I'm genuinely curious what people prefer about the marines on the left vs. those on the right?
The pre-Primaris DA/BA/SW specific units had more charm
That sums it pretty well for me.
And well, a tactical, assault, devastator squad speaks to me.
Whatever silly name they came for
with the latest primaris stuff does not.
Making "specialist marine" squads like they
did shot the army in a totaly different
way of llist building and play.
I love eldar, I really do.
And if I want to play aspect warriors, I wil play eldar,
not marines.
I agree with the above about the AI generated
feel, and I hate with a passion the primaris vehicles.
Stupid guns everywhere, and stubbers!
Stubbers!? The damn thing on almost every
single vehicule for primaris, and it was until then the
epitome of the cheap, mass produced weapon... I cannot understand why the elite of Mankind would want
this (Meh! Guard thing!) on their vehicules.
It is great primaris players are happy with their
models.
They are just the reason I will never make
a new space marine army.
tneva82 wrote: So gw makes bigger marines and it turns into ugly. Lol. Basic primaries/blade guard/hellblasters etc are just what they were bar height and rules.
(well initially less bling though with 9e got more back to what it was before primaris>
I started playing around the time of the Primaris launch and find the distaste for them to be bewildering.
The lore was kind of goofy but I don't see what people prefer about the old marines? Is it the frowny faceplate? The dumpy proportions?
The pre-Primaris DA/BA/SW specific units had more charm, but it seems clear GW is bringing back the chapter specific/grim dark aesthetic with new releases – first the Bladeguard, then the Black Templars, presumably the DA/BA in short order.
I'm genuinely curious what people prefer about the marines on the left vs. those on the right?
Better designs. They tried to reinvent the wheel when all they needed to do was make that wheel bigger and better detailed/proportioned.
The CSM range refresh, the plastic HH 2.0 sculpts, and to an extent the Space Marine Heroes sculpts all prove this.
tneva82 wrote: So gw makes bigger marines and it turns into ugly. Lol. Basic primaries/blade guard/hellblasters etc are just what they were bar height and rules.
(well initially less bling though with 9e got more back to what it was before primaris>
I started playing around the time of the Primaris launch and find the distaste for them to be bewildering.
The lore was kind of goofy but I don't see what people prefer about the old marines? Is it the frowny faceplate? The dumpy proportions?
The pre-Primaris DA/BA/SW specific units had more charm, but it seems clear GW is bringing back the chapter specific/grim dark aesthetic with new releases – first the Bladeguard, then the Black Templars, presumably the DA/BA in short order.
I'm genuinely curious what people prefer about the marines on the left vs. those on the right?
The five guys on the left can take useful weapons.
Do old models have issues and poor proportions? Yes.
Is that fixable with a new kit? Also yes.
Does it require a lore retcon and multiple units that serve the same (but lesser, because you can't mix gear) purpose? No. Not at all.
That they've repeatedly remade new interchangeable 'I-name' units that fulfill basically the same function and in some cases render each other useless (but not the basic old marine gear layout) is beyond absurd.
MkX tactical, devastator and assault marines would have been fine.
And also, the tanks are junk. But people piled in on buying out the HH Deimos tanks and Land Raiders... weird, that.
Bonus for a new Primaris 'Preggers' Dread filling the same niche as the 'stealthy' not-a-Dreadnought.
tneva82 wrote: So gw makes bigger marines and it turns into ugly. Lol. Basic primaries/blade guard/hellblasters etc are just what they were bar height and rules.
(well initially less bling though with 9e got more back to what it was before primaris>
I started playing around the time of the Primaris launch and find the distaste for them to be bewildering.
The lore was kind of goofy but I don't see what people prefer about the old marines? Is it the frowny faceplate? The dumpy proportions?
The pre-Primaris DA/BA/SW specific units had more charm, but it seems clear GW is bringing back the chapter specific/grim dark aesthetic with new releases – first the Bladeguard, then the Black Templars, presumably the DA/BA in short order.
I'm genuinely curious what people prefer about the marines on the left vs. those on the right?
The five guys on the left can take useful weapons.
THIS.
My biggest issue with Intercessors is their lack of flexibility. Now that they're no longer any more durable than Firstborn, what role do they serve? Take a full Tactical Squad, give them a meltagun and a missile launcher, and split them into Combat Squads. Now I've got some fire support sitting on an objective and a close-range threat that can go hunting.
Also, I'm painting my Marines as Blood Ravens, and they strike me as very distrustful in Primaris marines.
tneva82 wrote: So gw makes bigger marines and it turns into ugly. Lol. Basic primaries/blade guard/hellblasters etc are just what they were bar height and rules.
(well initially less bling though with 9e got more back to what it was before primaris>
I started playing around the time of the Primaris launch and find the distaste for them to be bewildering.
The lore was kind of goofy but I don't see what people prefer about the old marines? Is it the frowny faceplate? The dumpy proportions?
The pre-Primaris DA/BA/SW specific units had more charm, but it seems clear GW is bringing back the chapter specific/grim dark aesthetic with new releases – first the Bladeguard, then the Black Templars, presumably the DA/BA in short order.
I'm genuinely curious what people prefer about the marines on the left vs. those on the right?
The five guys on the left can take useful weapons.
Do old models have issues and poor proportions? Yes.
Is that fixable with a new kit? Also yes.
You lost the plot because the new Beakies look a thousand times better than other manlet marines and still falter to Primaris design.
Also doesn't your point about a "new kit fixes things" kinda get negated if they just threw a sprue of special weapons in the Intercessor kit?
I like the Primaris marines because they are easier to paint. I've been playing since second addition, and I'm glad models were finally designed that rose (sunk?) to my gak painting skills.
Why I like Mini-Marines: Man, nostalgia. I remember painting my first lil' mariney from the 2nd edition box. Since then I've painted wolves, blood angels, many ill-fated custom chapters and, of course, my Green Marines. Plus chaos marines and eldar and orks--I know my way around Mk 7-10 power armor.
They are INFINITELY convertible and there is a wealth of models going back to the 80's. I can see why many olds want to hold on.
The good news is, those models are probably not going anywhere. If GW said "Nope, we are never making or selling another mini-marine kit!" I would totally understand the backlash.
Wayniac wrote: Primaris have definitely grown on me but they lack the charm and appeal of the old stuff. In a way it's like they've become completely soulless with their aesthetic
They look like you took one of these image-generating AIs, fed it with marine pictures, and told it to churn out variations on that theme.
Oh my gosh, that is EXACTLY it! Now that you out it in words it seems so obvious
tneva82 wrote: So gw makes bigger marines and it turns into ugly. Lol. Basic primaries/blade guard/hellblasters etc are just what they were bar height and rules.
(well initially less bling though with 9e got more back to what it was before primaris>
I started playing around the time of the Primaris launch and find the distaste for them to be bewildering.
The lore was kind of goofy but I don't see what people prefer about the old marines? Is it the frowny faceplate? The dumpy proportions?
The pre-Primaris DA/BA/SW specific units had more charm, but it seems clear GW is bringing back the chapter specific/grim dark aesthetic with new releases – first the Bladeguard, then the Black Templars, presumably the DA/BA in short order.
I'm genuinely curious what people prefer about the marines on the left vs. those on the right?
The five guys on the left can take useful weapons.
Do old models have issues and poor proportions? Yes.
Is that fixable with a new kit? Also yes.
You lost the plot because the new Beakies look a thousand times better than other manlet marines and still falter to Primaris design.
How did I 'lose the plot?' The HH beakies are exactly what they should have done rather than primaris in the first place. They don't 'falter' to primaris. They have a different armor style- if that appeals to you more, knock yourself out. But they still would've been better if they done a/t/d squads, just like they did with mk 7 and 8 armor.
Also doesn't your point about a "new kit fixes things" kinda get negated if they just threw a sprue of special weapons in the Intercessor kit?
It would 'kinda', but that doesn't seem like a concern given the new New Primaris are more of the same design philosophy. So no real threat that they're going to toss in special weapons.
tneva82 wrote: So gw makes bigger marines and it turns into ugly. Lol. Basic primaries/blade guard/hellblasters etc are just what they were bar height and rules.
(well initially less bling though with 9e got more back to what it was before primaris>
I started playing around the time of the Primaris launch and find the distaste for them to be bewildering.
The lore was kind of goofy but I don't see what people prefer about the old marines? Is it the frowny faceplate? The dumpy proportions?
The pre-Primaris DA/BA/SW specific units had more charm, but it seems clear GW is bringing back the chapter specific/grim dark aesthetic with new releases – first the Bladeguard, then the Black Templars, presumably the DA/BA in short order.
I'm genuinely curious what people prefer about the marines on the left vs. those on the right?
The marines on the left I have and the can fill different roles. The ones on the right look like proper re-scaled marine but with confused and often redundant gear. The big problem is the marines on the right were released with the worst fluff justification and were further rolled out in the greasiest way possible. They can't even use Rhinos. To add flames to the primaris dumpster fire the bikes/mario karts and vehicles look like kit bashes done by an 8 yr old, hard to justify the astronomical cost for the models. Personally I will never buy a primaris kit and reward GW for this complete gak, also won't get the guard book (main army) unless it survives the transition to 10th.
For me as i mentioned previously i like the take on MKIV maximus armor as primaris true scale armor for the most part. however the primaris range feels like GW is trying to turn the primaris line into eldar aspect warriors.
In the past you played marines as generalists. they had good enough ws/bs and a decent enough save/toughness that you could make some mistakes and still struggle through because they could do just about any job decently but no single job great.
When i see eradicators i think=fire dragons, inceptors=warp spiders etc....
I think the loss of the standard FOC and the unique thematic army lists really removed the feel of the game.
Now instead of seeing an army that looks like it obviously is configured to fight as craftworld alaitoc, armageddon steel legion, or a khorn berserker army. i see news blurbs about the top 5 meta army lists to beat in 9th ed tournament lists because they are all basically the same to maximize performance above all else. the latter is not my goal or reason i enjoy playing 40K. I own no primaris and i never will, i do however have a bunch of FW maximus armor models for the original 30K line.
tneva82 wrote: So gw makes bigger marines and it turns into ugly. Lol. Basic primaries/blade guard/hellblasters etc are just what they were bar height and rules.
(well initially less bling though with 9e got more back to what it was before primaris>
I started playing around the time of the Primaris launch and find the distaste for them to be bewildering.
The lore was kind of goofy but I don't see what people prefer about the old marines? Is it the frowny faceplate? The dumpy proportions?
The pre-Primaris DA/BA/SW specific units had more charm, but it seems clear GW is bringing back the chapter specific/grim dark aesthetic with new releases – first the Bladeguard, then the Black Templars, presumably the DA/BA in short order.
I'm genuinely curious what people prefer about the marines on the left vs. those on the right?
The five guys on the left can take useful weapons.
Do old models have issues and poor proportions? Yes.
Is that fixable with a new kit? Also yes.
You lost the plot because the new Beakies look a thousand times better than other manlet marines and still falter to Primaris design.
How did I 'lose the plot?' The HH beakies are exactly what they should have done rather than primaris in the first place. They don't 'falter' to primaris. They have a different armor style- if that appeals to you more, knock yourself out. But they still would've been better if they done a/t/d squads, just like they did with mk 7 and 8 armor.
Also doesn't your point about a "new kit fixes things" kinda get negated if they just threw a sprue of special weapons in the Intercessor kit?
It would 'kinda', but that doesn't seem like a concern given the new New Primaris are more of the same design philosophy. So no real threat that they're going to toss in special weapons.
1. It's not just "a different armor style". The proportions for Manlet Marines are completely off vs Primaris.
2. You avoid the point about a special weapon sprue completely which I find hilarious. "They won't do it so it doesn't count". The mental gymnastics Manlet Marine defenders go through is beyond ridiculous.
In the past you played marines as generalists. they had good enough ws/bs and a decent enough save/toughness that you could make some mistakes and still struggle through because they could do just about any job decently but no single job great.
You've clearly not played Marines then because the best they ever were wasn't even being played like you described LMAO. They get play with saturated heavy weapons, the non Power Armor units, or one time completely free vehicles.
Now instead of seeing an army that looks like it obviously is configured to fight as craftworld alaitoc, armageddon steel legion, or a khorn berserker army. i see news blurbs about the top 5 meta army lists to beat in 9th ed tournament lists because they are all basically the same to maximize performance above all else. the latter is not my goal or reason i enjoy playing 40K. I own no primaris and i never will, i do however have a bunch of FW maximus armor models for the original 30K line.
That's players for you. Try hards like to pretend this is some sort of competitive game and that's the end result.
Doesn't help that the game is so simple that 5 year kid can figure out optimal list so unsurprisingly everybody is playing same thinking they were particularly smart figuring out optimal list.
You've clearly not played Marines then because the best they ever were wasn't even being played like you described LMAO. They get play with saturated heavy weapons, the non Power Armor units, or one time completely free vehicles.
I likely have played longer and/or more often than most people who post on this forum.
Yes there are players who will always power game and look for the exploits, then there are players who play for the hobby side of things or for thematic story telling or another number of factors.
One example stands out from one of the few times i actuially went to an official GW tournament event- Seattle 2010 GT.
One of the players i played against had the most thematic black legion armies with a bit of everything represented. it was a great game and the other player was really a nice guy to play against. since neither one of us were playing tournament power lists and i do not even remember who won nor do i care. as i look through all the old pictures even though it was a "tournament" many of the armies still fit the thematic makeup of the army they represented-the white scars, blood angels, iyanden craftworld etc... all are clearly obvious but not identical.
I am not disliking Interecessors. They are aight aside from oversized weapons. What I am disliking are the "stolen from Stormcast" iconography details which are always copypasted to every new model, guns-on-guns-on-guns spam, and silly gocarts and other action figureness derp. Somehow much more toylike looking than Beakies ever were..
Primaris range has a lot of dud models with awkward design details. The proportions themselves are good.
Im ok with:
Interecessors (+Hvy+Assault)
Hellblasters
Inceptors (with bolters)
Eliminators
Eradicators
Infiltrators
Outriders (bikes have goofy clearance but I can live with it)
but dislike/detest:
Aggressors (the cabling looks hella derp and the gauntlets are fugly)
Gladiator
Bladeguard vets (Stormcast called, they want their bling back! Also, why did you tuck your cape in?)
Phobos librarian (I AM SHINOBI! KORAAAAAAAAAAAA)
Firestrike turret (Cobra is attacking! Go Joe!)
Primaris Chaplain (on bike sucks as well)
Primaris Librarian (My robes are all over the place..)
Invader ATV (Look, there's a star at the next chicane! Catch it! Woooooooo)
Reivers (that's a Death Company/Chaplain helmet!)
Incursors (targeters as big as the guns -why..)
Storm Speeder
Invictor warsuit
Repulsor
Most of the upcoming kits shown are also going into the dislike/detest pile, just cant remember any names so left them off the list
I'm genuinely curious what people prefer about the marines on the left vs. those on the right?
I'm sure I've answered this before in previous years, but I'll humor you. My first caveat is that Intercessors aren't actually the Primaris unit I dislike the most from a miniatures design point of view (the tanks are), but I do have the following quibbles about them (leaving aside the codex and background for now).
* I'm not a huge fan of the name. I wish they'd been called "Primaris Tactical Squad" or something, "intercessor" is a real word in the dictionary, but usually only reserved for theological texts. * The three bolt rifle variants seem like an excessive amount of only-vaguely-differentiated variants of the same basic design (which I do like as an update from the basic boltgun). This has gotten worse with the arrival of Heavy Intercessors, who have their own trio of heavy bolt rifle variants. I'm not super convinced all six variants are necessary. * Also, compare the boltrifle variants to the bolter variants from older 40k. They're all pretty subtle, compared to the old standard of "feth it, let's bolt a second one on the side" and "Idk, maybe a plasma gun under the barrel". These were both more over-the-top / cartoony (ymmv) and more visible on the tabletop. I feel I can pick out a stormbolter or a combi-plasma across the table better than I could discern whether a unit has stalker or auto boltrifles. * This is overlapping codex-related complaints, but I do think special and heavy weapons options add a lot of fun modeling and painting possibilities in a unit and an extra way of making two units look and feel a bit different even if they're all using the same line infantry weapons. * The helmets should have stayed the same. The Mk7 space marine helmet remains iconic, and the Mk10 has not filled those jumbo-sized shoes just yet. * I'm not a huge fan of the flared knee plates. It's not a terrible design element in a vacuum, but it's an odd kind of decorative archaism that I don't think much of the rest of the armor has, so it feels out of place. It is the counterpart of the raised gorget, I suppose, which in itself is carried over from the Mk8, but the knees bug me a lot more. Possibly because I could see such sticky-outy bits in that location as snagging on stuff unnecessarily all the time.
These are all petty, personal reasons, but I hope you'll pay me the respect of not talking me out of them. Rest assured, better people than you have tried to change my mind and failed.
3orangewhips wrote: The good news is, those models are probably not going anywhere. If GW said "Nope, we are never making or selling another mini-marine kit!" I would totally understand the backlash.
I find their actions speak louder than their word ever could. They don't need to tell us something that's obvious. What Firstborn kit could they even release at this point, with Primaris and 30k kits having sucked up all the oxygen from the rhetorical room?
2. You avoid the point about a special weapon sprue completely which I find hilarious. "They won't do it so it doesn't count". The mental gymnastics Manlet Marine defenders go through is beyond ridiculous.
If he doesn't, I will gladly address it. Yes, adding special weapons to intercessors would address one of my dislikes, as they would have more variety and visual interest that way (just like having heavy intercessors able to take a heavy bolter does). But it wouldn't slamdunk away all of my quibbles in the way you seem to think. I struggle to see how you could even arrive at such far-fetched notion.
In closing: Why is it so important to you that everyone agrees with you about how much "manlet marines" (why are you using this word?) are stupid and suck? If you want to talk about mental gymnastics, maybe get off the parallel bars first.
issue with the numarines etc is actually quite simple when you think about it
the game has been around for decades now, they have pretty much created every unit for marines you need or are likely to need, yet its the main line of models so they have to keep creating new ones. so new ones either duplicate old ones roles or have to try to be different but never really feel right
I actually like the models, or the earlier ones, specifically for the lack of "bling" moulded to them, yes you could add it if you wanted, but could also omit it if you wanted - seemed the right way to go for me.
some of the later stuff, well it looks like it was designed in a 3d cad package not a pencil concept sketch, way to many copy & paste parts - and while yes its power armour it really should be reused and just reposed (and some are done well) it is as noted above a bit like AI generated.
specifically has the feel of "hey we haven't done one posed this way yet and lets stick another gun on as this combo is new!" as opposed to someone creating a suite of models with the same flavour to them and having at least a basic idea of the actual purpose they are meant to fill.
HH has squads with all identical weapons, with the 'veteran' options that look like traditional tactical 40k squads, and you can sort of feel the evolution from rigid legionaries to more flexible marines. not sure there is any reason in fluff to go backwards in how they are equipped.
guess for me it also helped that my basically three colour scheme (white body, green arms & legs and grey weapon casings) carried over to them nicely, and they generally have a decent area for some spot colours
Agamemnon2 wrote: * The helmets should have stayed the same. The Mk7 space marine helmet remains iconic, and the Mk10 has not filled those jumbo-sized shoes just yet.
Mk X helmets take the grill from Mk IV, and add the angled ear bits from the classic Jes G sketch of MK VIII.
are we any closer in figuring out if this is a reboot or just an updated version?
sorry if this has been answered.
i was just looking at the OP and it says it could be either.
usernamesareannoying wrote: are we any closer in figuring out if this is a reboot or just an updated version?
sorry if this has been answered.
i was just looking at the OP and it says it could be either.
At the moment there are conflicting rumours, but the rumourmongers with a proven track record tend towards updated version, possibly with a reboot of the CP system and thus a need for Indexes for all factions. However, there is no clear evidence either way yet. The OP is updated whenever we get new info, but there hasn't been much news about 10th in the last week or so. I did not add that one video about Fulgrim/EC/whatever because it was just baseless speculation and conjecture, and i want to keep the thread somewhat focused
I'm genuinely curious what people prefer about the marines on the left vs. those on the right?
The five guys on the left can take useful weapons.
THIS.
My biggest issue with Intercessors is their lack of flexibility. Now that they're no longer any more durable than Firstborn, what role do they serve? Take a full Tactical Squad, give them a meltagun and a missile launcher, and split them into Combat Squads. Now I've got some fire support sitting on an objective and a close-range threat that can go hunting.
Yeah, mechanically I'm much more interested in sergeants that can take decent weapons and troopers that can take real special weapons. Aesthetically, yeah, nostalgia of classic parts. For background, I enjoyed the desperate imperium where their parts were interchangeable because supply lines were unreliable, equipment was difficult to manufacture, etc., they didn't have a million gun types or like 8 types of marine troops choices. Practically, I enjoy that most of my library of marine parts are compatible.
If GW had sold Primaris as a new armor mark with some exclusive units, given us some new options, and effectively slowly transitioned into a new era, I expect I wouldn't have griped much: I do like older marines and their style of details more but also do recognize that new GW proportions are generally just better. The issue I had was mostly that they tried so transparently to force the issue with dumb stuff like incompatible transports and a retcon I didn't buy (in more senses than one).
I wonder if we could get something like partial indexes. The stratagem and CP is rebooted and reworked and the indexes are for the replacing system, but we still use the codexes for datasheets.
Tyran wrote: I wonder if we could get something like partial indexes. The stratagem and CP is rebooted and reworked and the indexes are for the replacing system, but we still use the codexes for datasheets.
That's what i'm thinking. The CP-system rework would make Indexes necessary because at least some armies rely on CP-based shenanigans for subfactions, relics and so on, so you'd have to solve that somehow if you didn't want to break the lot of them by a hard cutoff of the old system. I think most of us agree that the bookkeeping of various points and abilities got out of hand, so that'd be a very obvious avenue of attack to prune stuff with a new edition.
Tyran wrote: I wonder if we could get something like partial indexes. The stratagem and CP is rebooted and reworked and the indexes are for the replacing system, but we still use the codexes for datasheets.
I think the strategems and datasheets would need to go hand in hand.
In 9th, many datasheet abilities got moved to strategems - e.g. smoke launchers. Reworking the datasheets would be desirable if the supplemental strategems went away.
Tyran wrote: I wonder if we could get something like partial indexes. The stratagem and CP is rebooted and reworked and the indexes are for the replacing system, but we still use the codexes for datasheets.
I think the strategems and datasheets would need to go hand in hand.
In 9th, many datasheet abilities got moved to strategems - e.g. smoke launchers. Reworking the datasheets would be desirable if the supplemental strategems went away.
Many of which were just dumb to move in the first place:
"Sir, we are under heavy fire, shall we launch the smoke grenades attached to the outside of the vehicle?!"
"No private, we cannot do that without express authorisation from high command, and they can only call in so many favours..."
"What, favours? But they are right there!"
"My hands are tied private..."
The tank blows up.
I'd be all for basic equipment being rolled back into the datasheet.
Yeah, I get that they're useful for mechanical balance, but they also so quickly turned into a weird design space: especially when gear is common (yeah, smoke launchers) or unique and makes more sense to just be lumped into equipment you buy or come with.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Yeah, I get that they're useful for mechanical balance, but they also so quickly turned into a weird design space: especially when gear is common (yeah, smoke launchers) or unique and makes more sense to just be lumped into equipment you buy or come with.
At the current scale and scope of the game, stuff like smoke launchers is probably very near to the point that it just has to go away. Consider it 'always on' and built-in to general modifiers, cover and so on, and save actual wargear for stuff like sophisticated countermeasures or active denial systems.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Yeah, I get that they're useful for mechanical balance, but they also so quickly turned into a weird design space: especially when gear is common (yeah, smoke launchers) or unique and makes more sense to just be lumped into equipment you buy or come with.
At the current scale and scope of the game, stuff like smoke launchers is probably very near to the point that it just has to go away. Consider it 'always on' and built-in to general modifiers, cover and so on, and save actual wargear for stuff like sophisticated countermeasures or active denial systems.
Smoke launchers used to represent an interesting choice though- do I risk a vehicle dying, or reduce that risk at the expense of the vehicle not shooting next turn? Likewise, it was something you could force onto your opponent. The same goes for Go to Ground rules.
A lot of these kind of trade-off choices are gone from modern 40k, to be replaced by the resource management of command points.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Yeah, I get that they're useful for mechanical balance, but they also so quickly turned into a weird design space: especially when gear is common (yeah, smoke launchers) or unique and makes more sense to just be lumped into equipment you buy or come with.
At the current scale and scope of the game, stuff like smoke launchers is probably very near to the point that it just has to go away. Consider it 'always on' and built-in to general modifiers, cover and so on, and save actual wargear for stuff like sophisticated countermeasures or active denial systems.
Smoke launchers used to represent an interesting choice though- do I risk a vehicle dying, or reduce that risk at the expense of the vehicle not shooting next turn? Likewise, it was something you could force onto your opponent. The same goes for Go to Ground rules.
A lot of these kind of trade-off choices are gone from modern 40k, to be replaced by the resource management of command points.
Yes. I personally think that the current scale/scope of 40k is much too big for its own good - stuff like what you mentioned is flavorful, interesting and opens design space because it gives the players options for tactical gameplay. The current size creep leads to 'parking lots' and necessitates bolting on 'artificial' gameplay and stuff like multi-phase doctrines and the like. It also does not generally sit well with the 'every model matters' philosophy that GW games have and can't really drop because selling individual models is their purpose.
It would probably be better for the health of 40k as a game to shrink back a bit towards a more skirmish-style scale, but GW wants to sell more, and bigger, models, so i doubt that this is going to happen. The best we can hope for is probably that 'proper' 40k grows so much that there'll be space for '40k Skirmish' in between it and e.g. Killteam.
Tyran wrote: I wonder if we could get something like partial indexes. The stratagem and CP is rebooted and reworked and the indexes are for the replacing system, but we still use the codexes for datasheets.
This is my personal hope. They could easily release a document that adjusts rules, takes out stratagems, or 'indexifies' stratagems to help cut down on bloat right from the get-go.
They did it with Blast weapons and a few other things. This would be a much more ambitious adjustment, but much needed for the health of the game, and especially if they do indeed change the CP system again...
All I'm really hoping for with the 10th is a stop to the bloat of stratagems. I would take them gutting secondaries as they're IMHO one of the worst parts (way too gamey), and I wouldn't mind them not having a bunch of terrain keywords either which seem like unnecessary extras. But the bare minimum is to get rid of the "every codex adds stratagems" crap.
I also wouldn't mind a more streamlined "Combat Patrol" style subset of rules, that's not just "pick 500 points and use these missions". Something with more restrictions, like when they used to have 0-1 type of stuff. Small point games can IMHO be a ton of fun, but not with the rules as they are.
The absolute best thing would be for them to basically break up 40k into three parts: Kill Team, "Firefight" (approximately company level, this would be "regular" 40k), Apocalypse (using the apoc rules that they had done with movement trays and whatnot). So you can keep stuff like flyers and superheavies and junk that don't belong in "normal" 40k in apocalypse (get rekt Knight players) and out of the regular game.
I hope they go with AoS version of Stratagems. Here’s a ~dozen generic ones everyone has access to, but then many characters offer their own unique one they can use.
AduroT wrote: I hope they go with AoS version of Stratagems. Here’s a ~dozen generic ones everyone has access to, but then many characters offer their own unique one they can use.
That would actually work really well.
Hell, just give in and adapt most of AOS to 40k. Maybe something like wounds don't carry over UNLESS it's in melee or the weapon has like Blast or something where it would make sense it could kill multiple dudes.
Tyran wrote: I wonder if we could get something like partial indexes. The stratagem and CP is rebooted and reworked and the indexes are for the replacing system, but we still use the codexes for datasheets.
This is my personal hope. They could easily release a document that adjusts rules, takes out stratagems, or 'indexifies' stratagems to help cut down on bloat right from the get-go.
They did it with Blast weapons and a few other things. This would be a much more ambitious adjustment, but much needed for the health of the game, and especially if they do indeed change the CP system again...
They did something similar with WHFB 8th so there is precedence.
Tyran wrote: I wonder if we could get something like partial indexes. The stratagem and CP is rebooted and reworked and the indexes are for the replacing system, but we still use the codexes for datasheets.
This is my personal hope. They could easily release a document that adjusts rules, takes out stratagems, or 'indexifies' stratagems to help cut down on bloat right from the get-go.
They did it with Blast weapons and a few other things. This would be a much more ambitious adjustment, but much needed for the health of the game, and especially if they do indeed change the CP system again...
Having the app this time around should, in theory, make Index-ifying easier. Everyone who has the 9th ed. Codex for an army unlocked in the app could get the 10th ed. Index rules and updates for that army unlocked in the app on launch day.
That would address many of the complaints about temporary Indexes from last time around.
Makes more sense than using up a lot of the main rulebook to print lists like in 3rd.
you certainly don't want the main rulebook with lists that are quickly out of date.
an approach similar to what Battlefront did with Flames 3 works, there the main rulebook was a slip case with three sections, the rulebook, a "gets you started" set of army lists that was gradually replaced and they had a painting guide section.
here I'd love a similar split, nice presentation slip case containing:
- the rules, every "rule" lives here, scenarios etc, the idea being this is a book you bring to games
- the armies, a starter list like the indexes, or a subset of them to get you going, intended to be replaced and in softback
- the background, all the fluff stuff thats nice to read, nice to have and can be inspiring but you don't need to play the game
then a separate quick paint guide for whatever models are in the box
and the idea that those with recent books can unlock the digital versions as they are released to avoid the "so what was this bought for?" is a nice gesture
leopard wrote: you certainly don't want the main rulebook with lists that are quickly out of date.
an approach similar to what Battlefront did with Flames 3 works, there the main rulebook was a slip case with three sections, the rulebook, a "gets you started" set of army lists that was gradually replaced and they had a painting guide section.
here I'd love a similar split, nice presentation slip case containing: - the rules, every "rule" lives here, scenarios etc, the idea being this is a book you bring to games - the armies, a starter list like the indexes, or a subset of them to get you going, intended to be replaced and in softback - the background, all the fluff stuff thats nice to read, nice to have and can be inspiring but you don't need to play the game
then a separate quick paint guide for whatever models are in the box
and the idea that those with recent books can unlock the digital versions as they are released to avoid the "so what was this bought for?" is a nice gesture
GW did a slip case set for 6th. (Might have been 7th, it’s been a while)
IMHO enough broad sweeping changes need to happen to almost every weapon profile, and a chunk of statlines that some form of index would be required. Of course, if GW doesn’t feel the need to curb the power creep as much as I do, a simple FAQ might suffice.
No way it will happen, but what I Really want them to do is stop printing books and just use the app. It was great when it could work that way thru the old AoS app.
AduroT wrote: No way it will happen, but what I Really want them to do is stop printing books and just use the app. It was great when it could work that way thru the old AoS app.
It would be nice they they still had the books, but they were 100% optional. So free rules and everything you need to play online, but for collectors ot people who want all the fluff/lore, it’s there.
I would dabble in so many armies if I didn’t need to shell out cash for codexes.
AduroT wrote: No way it will happen, but what I Really want them to do is stop printing books and just use the app. It was great when it could work that way thru the old AoS app.
I see the benefits but to be honest I've not yet had a books battery go flat on me or had a book removed from me because the publisher no long has a license for it etc.
as long as the online version doesn't need an internet connection to work (e.g. occasional updates to it not server based) and the contents and wording of it and the physical book are the same when errata for the physical book is considered there are advantages to having both for sure, but for me just an app is a hard pass, in this age there should also be the 'app' option and stuff like online army builders are very good and very useful but for actually playing I want a book
a book thats pre-drilled for a ring binder ideally so I can leave the bits I don't need at home
Kanluwen wrote: Frankly I wish they would start doing datasheet cards either as part of the book purchase or a standalone product.
I love those things for AoS.
that works [but only if they are not limited release... they need to be something someone wandering into the hobby can actually get hold of - and they need to be revised every so often - e.g. when the say twice annual rebalance is done a pack issued of any that have changed, or just have an annual re-issue for all factions - change the border colour or something so its really clear what "this years" pack is
but also don't do what Battlefront have done, leave the things as optional not ala Flames where if the card is different to the book its the card thats right (unless the FAQ says otherwise) and there is a whole stack of stuff thats only on the 'optional' cards
cards make a very good reference, I like the ones I have from AoS, I just wish I could have gotten hold of the rest of them for the factions I actually have - would be happy to have bought them but apparently GW didn't want my money
Gen.Steiner wrote: For me, I think that a return to things like Universal Special Rules - used by every army - would really help.
AoS3 is pretty good from the games I've seen of it; it wouldn't hurt to just... write 10th in the same way to be honest.
Gasp!! Don't say that too loudly or you'll bring all the rampant AoS haters out of the woodworks who still feel stung, 8 years later, by the killing of WHFB that they still insist wasn't their own fault for gatekeeping an exceedingly expensive hobby even by the standards of the early 2000's!
Gen.Steiner wrote: For me, I think that a return to things like Universal Special Rules - used by every army - would really help.
AoS3 is pretty good from the games I've seen of it; it wouldn't hurt to just... write 10th in the same way to be honest.
Gasp!! Don't say that too loudly or you'll bring all the rampant AoS haters out of the woodworks who still feel stung, 8 years later, by the killing of WHFB that they still insist wasn't their own fault for gatekeeping an exceedingly expensive hobby even by the standards of the early 2000's!
I will never give up mocking GW for that, Even when I agree !
Gen.Steiner wrote: For me, I think that a return to things like Universal Special Rules - used by every army - would really help.
AoS3 is pretty good from the games I've seen of it; it wouldn't hurt to just... write 10th in the same way to be honest.
Gasp!! Don't say that too loudly or you'll bring all the rampant AoS haters out of the woodworks who still feel stung, 8 years later, by the killing of WHFB that they still insist wasn't their own fault for gatekeeping an exceedingly expensive hobby even by the standards of the early 2000's!
I will never give up mocking GW for that, Even when I agree !
Is it alright for us to hate them because AOS 1.0 rules sucked?
Gen.Steiner wrote: For me, I think that a return to things like Universal Special Rules - used by every army - would really help.
AoS3 is pretty good from the games I've seen of it; it wouldn't hurt to just... write 10th in the same way to be honest.
Gasp!! Don't say that too loudly or you'll bring all the rampant AoS haters out of the woodworks who still feel stung, 8 years later, by the killing of WHFB that they still insist wasn't their own fault for gatekeeping an exceedingly expensive hobby even by the standards of the early 2000's!
I will never give up mocking GW for that, Even when I agree !
Is it alright for us to hate them because AOS 1.0 rules sucked?
I Agree, So go for it!
I actually love Fantasy, but it’s not like it was in a good state. And.
I still think AoS needs another few editions before it’s good, but GW is a slow beastie.
GW did a slip case set for 6th. (Might have been 7th, it’s been a while)
Yes, but that was a fluff book, an art book, and the rules. They're asking for something more like the 3rd Ed BBB with the army lists built in.
Same basic idea. Have multiple parts so you don’t need to drag the whole damn tome to game night every time. Just replace art book with starter army index.
GW did a slip case set for 6th. (Might have been 7th, it’s been a while)
Yes, but that was a fluff book, an art book, and the rules. They're asking for something more like the 3rd Ed BBB with the army lists built in.
Same basic idea. Have multiple parts so you don’t need to drag the whole damn tome to game night every time. Just replace art book with starter army index.
GW did a slip case set for 6th. (Might have been 7th, it’s been a while)
Yes, but that was a fluff book, an art book, and the rules. They're asking for something more like the 3rd Ed BBB with the army lists built in.
Same basic idea. Have multiple parts so you don’t need to drag the whole damn tome to game night every time. Just replace art book with starter army index.
this, 100% this
The idea looks good on paper but I would expect GW to do it in a way you would pay more for more books
I'm definitely in favour of maybe splitting the books out like they've done previously. Personally I'm hoping they:
Move away from you go/I go to alternate activations - seems highly unlikely but I played firefight from mantic the other week which uses AA and it's so much better.
Streamline the attack sequence - removing the to wound roll for most units sounds great to me. Again firefight works much like this. You roll to hit against a fixed BS stat then roll to beat the targets armour stat to inflict damage and that's it. Some heavy armoured units have rules requiring you to re roll successful damage rolls (again similar to what's being rumoured here with certain units still needing a to wound roll). Much quicker and simpler though.
Cap weapon damage - I like that not all guns do 1 damage but damage in 9th has gotten so far out of hand it's silly. Please just introduce a design principle that just says 'no weapon in the game can do more than X damage per shot'. How you get to X or even if you get to X can be flexible (it could be a flat value, a dice roll or dice + flat value) but X is the absolute limit. Let's not have what we got with the Tau codex in 9th.
Massively reduce stratagems - give me 6 or 7 strats with broader application across most units in my army rather than 20+ but most of which are useless.
Move away from D6s - again massively unlikely for tenth but trying to distinguish betwee the shooting ability of a vindicare assassin and an Ork boy on a scale of 1-6 just doesn't give you the range IMO.
- Dark Angels will get some sort of bodyguard unit to go wit Lion'El Johnson called the Lionguard according to trusted sources
- Blood Angels: Dante is done and shall be revealed soon
- Speculation about redone Sanguinary Guard
- Still doubling down 100% on SM vs. Tyranids in 10th box set
- Space Wolves: only speculation
- Grey Knights: no rumours
- Other chapters : Cato Sicarius as a focal character in 10th
- Speculation about a new Lysander in new Terminator armour
- Unspecified chapter-specific supplements originally scheduled for 9th will appear in 10th
- New Models in general:
- New Librarian and Terminators in 10th starter
- New Jump Assault Marines are done and will release soon, their models informed the videogame Space Marine II
- Again mentions allowing classic marine transports to transport Primaris in 10th
- 'Maybe' a new Space Marine flyer, but not the Overlord
Unfortunately the chronological listings seem to be bungled somehow due to the nested spoilers and quotes - i can't take the time to fix that just yet, but i'm aware of the problem and will do so soon-ish.
So lots more contradicting rumours (starter box contents, no overlord) combined with obvious-seeming rumours (New Dante, jump marines that look like the Space Marine 2 game) and something new out of left field (Lionguard).
True or not, I can't say, but this batch of rumours lacks weight.
Leggy wrote: So lots more contradicting rumours (starter box contents, no overlord) combined with obvious-seeming rumours (New Dante, jump marines that look like the Space Marine 2 game) and something new out of left field (Lionguard).
True or not, I can't say, but this batch of rumours lacks weight.
To be fair to the man, he's been saying about Dante for a few months now, so it only seems obvious because of reverb at this point maybe.
Leggy wrote: So lots more contradicting rumours (starter box contents, no overlord) combined with obvious-seeming rumours (New Dante, jump marines that look like the Space Marine 2 game) and something new out of left field (Lionguard).
True or not, I can't say, but this batch of rumours lacks weight.
I've felt this way with pretty much all the rumours so far. They're nearly all something pretty obvious and easy to guess as coming at some point combined with something that just sounds plausible but easy to make up as their own unique version of the rumours that already exist.
Leggy wrote: So lots more contradicting rumours (starter box contents, no overlord) combined with obvious-seeming rumours (New Dante, jump marines that look like the Space Marine 2 game) and something new out of left field (Lionguard).
True or not, I can't say, but this batch of rumours lacks weight.
To be fair to the man, he's been saying about Dante for a few months now, so it only seems obvious because of reverb at this point maybe.
Not really. GW have been slowly updating spacial characters to primaris since the range reboot in 8th, and slowly converting any metal (now resin) models into plastic since finecast debuted in 2011. EVENTUALLY a new Dante has to arrive.
Add to that the knowledge that GW will happily sit on new model designs for years, and it's perfectly safe to proclaim any Space Marine character is on its way. When it doesn't arrive, you can just shrug and claim they're holding it back for a later release/2nd wave/ it got shy.
This isn't to say Valrak is lying or acting maliciously. He simply parrots what he's told, regardless of veracity or reliability, to keep up a constant stream of content. I simply lack faith in this rumour drop.
Dude's supposed to be the oldest non-Traitor Marine still around, right? Off him and let someone new step up.
He's one of the oldest. There's definitely other Marines implied to be just as old or older, like the current Carcharodons librarian (if memory serves me right)
Does anyone else just sort of... 'check out' around the year of a new warhammer 40k edition?
I remember this happening for 9th. Rumors started ramping up for more space marines and I struggled to stay interested. Now, my eyes just start glazing over and I strap in for the fact that this is all we'll hear about for the next 4-5 months up to reveal and release, and then the next 2-3 months after will be about all the shiny new stuff space marines get, and then maybe, MAYBE once we get into the Winter we'll be free and can enjoy other factions getting updated...
drbored wrote: Does anyone else just sort of... 'check out' around the year of a new warhammer 40k edition?
I remember this happening for 9th. Rumors started ramping up for more space marines and I struggled to stay interested. Now, my eyes just start glazing over and I strap in for the fact that this is all we'll hear about for the next 4-5 months up to reveal and release, and then the next 2-3 months after will be about all the shiny new stuff space marines get, and then maybe, MAYBE once we get into the Winter we'll be free and can enjoy other factions getting updated...
The space marines entails a faction reboot of someone else. More people play marines, hence more people are invested in their changes, so you hear more about them.
drbored wrote: Does anyone else just sort of... 'check out' around the year of a new warhammer 40k edition?
I remember this happening for 9th. Rumors started ramping up for more space marines and I struggled to stay interested. Now, my eyes just start glazing over and I strap in for the fact that this is all we'll hear about for the next 4-5 months up to reveal and release, and then the next 2-3 months after will be about all the shiny new stuff space marines get, and then maybe, MAYBE once we get into the Winter we'll be free and can enjoy other factions getting updated...
The space marines entails a faction reboot of someone else. More people play marines, hence more people are invested in their changes, so you hear more about them.
Marines are also somewhat easier to describe accurately than tyranids for someone who does not play them and has no interest in the range. 'There's ones with big multipart guns, there's ones with shields and hammers and then there's bigger ones with rocketpods on their back' is easier to make sense of than 'Theres a big one with some things in its hands, about 20 smaller ones with claws and 3 medium dudes that look weird and floaty'
Maybe I just like new models, but a new edition usually promotes interest to me.
Last time round was clearly a bit weird as it occurred in and around Covid lockdowns that kind of made it feel like the edition didn't properly start for a year or so.
drbored wrote: Does anyone else just sort of... 'check out' around the year of a new warhammer 40k edition?
I remember this happening for 9th. Rumors started ramping up for more space marines and I struggled to stay interested. Now, my eyes just start glazing over and I strap in for the fact that this is all we'll hear about for the next 4-5 months up to reveal and release, and then the next 2-3 months after will be about all the shiny new stuff space marines get, and then maybe, MAYBE once we get into the Winter we'll be free and can enjoy other factions getting updated...
The space marines entails a faction reboot of someone else. More people play marines, hence more people are invested in their changes, so you hear more about them.
I like Marines and I'm interested in seeing what they get, even if for my taste Primaris produce more duds than good models. Hopefully the rumors about Tyranids being the opposing force are true since Tyranids are cool, too. But I agree with the sentiment that GW's big summer releases are a bit of a slog. Perhaps it shouldn't feel like that due to GW's considerable output (which has a flip side, see below) these days and both AoS and the range of specialist games getting attention while 40k is focused on the new Marines and NPC release, but it certainly does to me.
It's not just Marines and 40k either. I had similar feelings about Sigmarines and knockoff orcs when 3rd ed AoS came around.
In a way GW is so productive these days that the big, long drawn out release highlight that is a new edition is somewhat less exciting than the usual release schedule because these days you can be pretty sure that there's a new thing every month. Novelty of the edition poster children wears off as quickly as any other release and the miniature output is not massively larger than what random mid-edition codices can get, but occupies two or three times as much time.
Here's a pastebin doing the rounds on Discord. I have no idea on the source and definitely can't say how reliable it is, but we're only really competing with Valrak here so
there is a new digital ecosystem coming
digital strategy is baked in and hinges on the redesigned web site, including builder and a new app version
You now have a digital collection. These are small pages with content for every army you have bought and an enhanced shop page for every unit you have collected. There are codes in the boxes and publications to unlock a collected item. The content is usually a codex or vault excerpt, artwork, painting tutorials, but sometimes downloadable wallpapers additional gaming profiles for the unit or a paint scheme showcase
All these profiles are predefined. The weapon choices are made for you. These are only for starter missions
For customizable units, designed for campaign and pick up play, you need the codex. This unlocks all the options in the new app or the army builder in the shop. These builders construct an army roster for you with profiles for each unit. on these generated profiles all the relevant choices you have made, are baked in
If you have collected a codex, you automatically get digital access to additional options released in other publications for the army, for the duration of the edition.
You need a subscription for access to the army builder for anything above starter missions
The core rules are free and the starter mission pack is free. You can play a starter game without a codex or rulebook, just with the profiles in the boxes you have bought
Both a printed version of the profile and a digital code come in the box
Codex publications come with a code, but you can also buy the codes digitally. But this doesn't give you a digital version of the codex, just the unlocks collection page of the army and the units and makes the content available in army builder
When you buy the rulebook or a seasonal rulebook, you get access to further mission packs suited for campaign and more detailed pick up play.
In these formats you can customize your units and the app generates the in-game profiles for you. These profiles are compatible with the starter profiles, but you can make all the decisions
You can theoretically do this by hand if you have the codex, but it is tedious to copy all the rules by hand. Printing your generated profiles from the app is easier
The app has no in-game functionality besides looking at your profiles and the rules
The codex has all the customizable options and build-a-unit datasheets. It unlocks these options in the army builder
You need both the codex and the publication with the mission pack to built an army for the respective kind of mission. at the beginning of the edition the purchase of the warhosts tome gives you access to all the armies at once
Erratas, revised construction datasheets, point adjustments are free for subscribers and released digitally only
The plan is to leave the predefined profiles unchanged for the duration of the edition, but i don't know how this will break cross-compatibility eventually
The army builder can be used for free for the core rules and starter mission pack
A W+ subscription gives you access to all the predefined profiles from all armies without needing to buy all the boxes. But you still need the box to add a unit to your collection for the immersive content
The edition starts with the Vigil of Blood box for hooked players and a series of mini starter boxes for beginners. these can be bought at a time or as a discounted subscription or all at once once they are released. These boxes have the same plastic terrain and units as the veteran box, but also contain tools and paints and step-by-step manuals. buying all boxes gives exactly all the starter box models + hobby items. First box is building two characters. After three boxes you can play the first game with a simple color scheme. The last three boxes are not as dense as the first ones
Grand Tournament packs are released once a year. They are exclusively released as a bundle of booklet and terrain. GT is its separate ecosystem now, with its own rules, profiles and point costs. This pack gives you digitally access to the Grand Tournament unit profiles. It is supposed to be a really tight ruleset. The launch box has a mountain of terrain and will be the most expensive bundle in Gw history. GT is separated in the app from the matched play mission and has its own builder - a reskinned version of the old app. The builder is sleeker because you cannot customize units. It has a clock, a scoresheet and a QR interface to share the scoresheet. The GT section is only available with a code in the pack. Further down the road, annual packs will have only half the terrain
Codex Space Marines, Tyranids, Demons and Orks are with the playtesters, as well as Blood Angels, Space Wolves and White Scars supplements
The launch box has fewer models than in the past, but plastic terrain included. I am paraphrasing: 1 winged jump primaris captain, 1 apothecari toxinmaster, 5 sword jump primaris, 5 veteran intercessors, 5 primaris scouts with grenade launchers, heavy offroad atv, 1 shrike prime, 3 shrikes, 8 termagants with fleshborer, 8 termagants with harpoon, 6 melee gargoyles, dreadnought sized trygon, Mosque style low tech buildings, reinforced with scifi tech and walls, improvised and rugged look, some destroyed old columns and centerpiece angel statue, plastic token set
xttz wrote: Here's a pastebin doing the rounds on Discord. I have no idea on the source and definitely can't say how reliable it is, but we're only really competing with Valrak here so
well, reads as if the Mantic Games App/Website and Ambush Sets was taken as base and added the Codex ecosystem on top of it with a little bit of GW moneymaking
GT is its separate ecosystem now, with its own rules, profiles and point costs. This pack gives you digitally access to the Grand Tournament unit profiles. It is supposed to be a really tight ruleset.
If true, I don't think this is gonna work out. People will see this as the official with a capital O version and within 6 months, all pick up games will be played using those pre-set unit profiles and rules.
In general, the whole thing feels convoluted enough to be real.
Short reminder: i'll only go over the thematic summaries at the end of the OP on the weekends when i've got enough time and concentration to do it right, so for now they're a bit incomplete.
Having the GT Books come with terrain seems a little backwards since GT players are the ones playing in stores and tournaments that supply terrain already. Unless it's another attempt to push that onto the players and make them supply their own terrain for events.
Asmodai wrote: Having the GT Books come with terrain seems a little backwards since GT players are the ones playing in stores and tournaments that supply terrain already. Unless it's another attempt to push that onto the players and make them supply their own terrain for events.
The way i read it is that the Organizer is supposed to buy that kit, to supply 'The Official' tournament terrain and eliminate terrain issues as a source of 'unfairness'. But that's conjecture by me.
Yet another list of models that completely contradicts all the other lists. Immediately I doubt these rumours.
The digital collection isn't a completely terrible idea. It would require reboxing every 40k model to include a code though. Having some ways to play that require preset unit options and some ways to play that allow customised unit options will infuriate a lot of people.
Crimson wrote: I hope this isn't true. Fixed loadouts on GT seems like a terrible idea, and it would most likely become the expected standard for pick up games too.
Conversely it might be possible to actually balance the damned thing a bit better.
Asmodai wrote: Having the GT Books come with terrain seems a little backwards since GT players are the ones playing in stores and tournaments that supply terrain already. Unless it's another attempt to push that onto the players and make them supply their own terrain for events.
The way i read it is that the Organizer is supposed to buy that kit, to supply 'The Official' tournament terrain and eliminate terrain issues as a source of 'unfairness'. But that's conjecture by me.
How big box you expect it be? 1k dollars?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leggy wrote: Yet another list of models that completely contradicts all the other lists. Immediately I doubt these rumours.
The digital collection isn't a completely terrible idea. It would require reboxing every 40k model to include a code though. Having some ways to play that require preset unit options and some ways to play that allow customised unit options will infuriate a lot of people.
New editions result reboxing anyway so that's not that unrealistic
Well they call it out as 'the most expensive box ever', and the current record holder is probably one of the boxes they did back when they had 'Apocalypse' as a concept.
999$ is a pricepoint i could see.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Yeah, I get that they're useful for mechanical balance, but they also so quickly turned into a weird design space: especially when gear is common (yeah, smoke launchers) or unique and makes more sense to just be lumped into equipment you buy or come with.
At the current scale and scope of the game, stuff like smoke launchers is probably very near to the point that it just has to go away. Consider it 'always on' and built-in to general modifiers, cover and so on, and save actual wargear for stuff like sophisticated countermeasures or active denial systems.
That pastebin is plausible just because it makes the rules distribution situation seem like an incredibly convoluted mess that isn't really any use at all, and that sounds exactly like GW's rules distribution strategy.
Can we have digital codexes I can read on the train? No! Follow this flow chart that will explain if you can see the rules for this unit depending on fourteen different interactions!
The Phazer wrote: That pastebin is plausible just because it makes the rules distribution situation seem like an incredibly convoluted mess that isn't really any use at all, and that sounds exactly like GW's rules distribution strategy.
Can we have digital codexes I can read on the train? No! Follow this flow chart that will explain if you can see the rules for this unit depending on fourteen different interactions!
On the other hand, having printed inserts with rules in boxes, presumably in language-localized versions, would lead to a lot of overhead for packaging, shipping and handling as well as introducing another, historically unreliable factor into operations. That's the big red flag in this batch of rumours for me.
Well they call it out as 'the most expensive box ever', and the current record holder is probably one of the boxes they did back when they had 'Apocalypse' as a concept.
999$ is a pricepoint i could see.
The most expensive single thing I remember actually seeing on GW's online store is the Chaos fortress when AoS launched. I don't remember if that was sold as a single box rather than a bundle collection of individual items, though. The price for that exceeded 1000€ (or USD, I don't quite remember since the spectacular thing was the four digits really) and provoked a lot of laughter.
On veracity, it's not hard to say moste expensive box ever because with some context it could be the most expensive launch or starter box GW did, and just be 5€, 10€ or 15€ more expensive than what, Horus Heresy or the Necromunda one with the Khornates? That would be plausible and in keeping with GW's approach to starter boxes, involve a price hike because GW and wouldn't stand out as outrageous in GW's ecosystem. Whereas selling a starter item, even if it's marketed as a launch box rather than a starter box, for many times what these things usually costs seems uncharacteristic for GW.
Well they call it out as 'the most expensive box ever', and the current record holder is probably one of the boxes they did back when they had 'Apocalypse' as a concept.
999$ is a pricepoint i could see.
The most expensive single thing I remember actually seeing on GW's online store is the Chaos fortress when AoS launched. I don't remember if that was sold as a single box rather than a bundle collection of individual items, though. The price for that exceeded 1000€ (or USD, I don't quite remember since the spectacular thing was the four digits really) and provoked a lot of laughter.
AduroT wrote: I hope they go with AoS version of Stratagems. Here’s a ~dozen generic ones everyone has access to, but then many characters offer their own unique one they can use.
Absolutely. One similar command (strat) per phase allowed, with several choices each phase, just like AOS. Then the other command actions right on the datasheet.
It works so well in Sigmar, I truly hope they can do something similar.
Well they call it out as 'the most expensive box ever', and the current record holder is probably one of the boxes they did back when they had 'Apocalypse' as a concept.
999$ is a pricepoint i could see.
The most expensive single thing I remember actually seeing on GW's online store is the Chaos fortress when AoS launched. I don't remember if that was sold as a single box rather than a bundle collection of individual items, though. The price for that exceeded 1000€ (or USD, I don't quite remember since the spectacular thing was the four digits really) and provoked a lot of laughter.
Well sigmar is odd one. At start of aos3 they increased generic oees but early books had virtually all warscroll specific ones removed. Then mid-edition design change happened with khainites and removal was reduced to most. Then with gits they took another route and certain characters have additional effect if they give certain command. So trollboss giving +1 to hit order also gives +1a. But it still is that generic command so can't give +1 to hit elsewhere.
The Phazer wrote: That pastebin is plausible just because it makes the rules distribution situation seem like an incredibly convoluted mess that isn't really any use at all, and that sounds exactly like GW's rules distribution strategy.
Can we have digital codexes I can read on the train? No! Follow this flow chart that will explain if you can see the rules for this unit depending on fourteen different interactions!
On the other hand, having printed inserts with rules in boxes, presumably in language-localized versions, would lead to a lot of overhead for packaging, shipping and handling as well as introducing another, historically unreliable factor into operations. That's the big red flag in this batch of rumours for me.
Not at all. They've already baked the rules on instruction booklets down to symbols and numbers, so there's very little localization of the rules parts that needs to be done.
It's plausible, especially if they push WH+ as the way you get all the 'base' datasheets in the apps. Then you don't have to fool around with whatever 'codes'.
The thing that reeks to me is... ok, so future kits will have these 'codes' or whatever, but what about kits people have already bought? If I bought the new Chaos Possessed before 10th, I'm just up shitake creek or something?
Ultimately doesn't matter, this is why the codexes exist, or, otherwise, list-building apps like battlescribe.
The thing that reeks to me is... ok, so future kits will have these 'codes' or whatever, but what about kits people have already bought? If I bought the new Chaos Possessed before 10th, I'm just up shitake creek or something?
Ultimately doesn't matter, this is why the codexes exist, or, otherwise, list-building apps like battlescribe.
The way it reads, you can use the box codes to get access to that specific unit or buy the codex(or the new package with every unit) and use THAT code to get access to all your faction's units.
The thing that reeks to me is... ok, so future kits will have these 'codes' or whatever, but what about kits people have already bought? If I bought the new Chaos Possessed before 10th, I'm just up shitake creek or something?
Ultimately doesn't matter, this is why the codexes exist, or, otherwise, list-building apps like battlescribe.
The way it reads, you can use the box codes to get access to that specific unit or buy the codex(or the new package with every unit) and use THAT code to get access to all your faction's units.
With a "warhost" book at launch as a sort of catch up for all armies at once purchase.
Well they call it out as 'the most expensive box ever', and the current record holder is probably one of the boxes they did back when they had 'Apocalypse' as a concept.
999$ is a pricepoint i could see.
The most expensive single thing I remember actually seeing on GW's online store is the Chaos fortress when AoS launched. I don't remember if that was sold as a single box rather than a bundle collection of individual items, though. The price for that exceeded 1000€ (or USD, I don't quite remember since the spectacular thing was the four digits really) and provoked a lot of laughter.
They did sell it in one big box. It's still sitting in my closet.
The thing that reeks to me is... ok, so future kits will have these 'codes' or whatever, but what about kits people have already bought? If I bought the new Chaos Possessed before 10th, I'm just up shitake creek or something?
Ultimately doesn't matter, this is why the codexes exist, or, otherwise, list-building apps like battlescribe.
The way it reads, you can use the box codes to get access to that specific unit or buy the codex(or the new package with every unit) and use THAT code to get access to all your faction's units.
Ah yeah, thinking about it and reading through...
But, we'll see. A lot of it actually seems 'too good to be true' to me.
These Valrak rumours are all fake. Probably way more of the real stuff will leak out soon, so I will leave this here:
- 10th is a complete reset, some extreme changes, but still D6 based
- there is an index book called warhosts
- Overall themes:
terrain destruction
more options during army construction, streamlined game itself
faster rolling, no re-rolls
freer unit activation
- Charges, action economy, all-out attack, ward + damage taken more or less from AoS, no double turn
- units activate one at a time and can do stuff in any order they want. still ‘all your units in your turn then all your opponent’s units in his turn’
- fighting is less fiddly. you only fight in your own turn
- stats are dice values and now go from 1+ to 6+
- initiative is back
- there is no wound roll
- profile layout is aos-like
- stratagems have to be bound to units and written on the army handout
- terrain can be destroyed
- morale is completely different, some units don’t attrition but get debuffed
- GT is a completely revamped game mode with a ton of differences. for example a loadout sideboard and
- no more power levels
- armor is not only a numerical value, but has attributes against which weapon it is good
RoyRobHobGob wrote: These Valrak rumours are all fake. Probably way more of the real stuff will leak out soon, so I will leave this here:
- 10th is a complete reset, some extreme changes, but still D6 based
- there is an index book called warhosts
- Overall themes:
terrain destruction
more options during army construction, streamlined game itself
faster rolling, no re-rolls
freer unit activation
- Charges, action economy, all-out attack, ward + damage taken more or less from AoS, no double turn
- units activate one at a time and can do stuff in any order they want. still ‘all your units in your turn then all your opponent’s units in his turn’
- fighting is less fiddly. you only fight in your own turn
- stats are dice values and now go from 1+ to 6+
- initiative is back
- there is no wound roll
- profile layout is aos-like
- stratagems have to be bound to units and written on the army handout
- terrain can be destroyed
- morale is completely different, some units don’t attrition but get debuffed
- GT is a completely revamped game mode with a ton of differences. for example a loadout sideboard and
- no more power levels
- armor is not only a numerical value, but has attributes against which weapon it is good
Got anything to give that any credence? Happy to chew it over as it lines up with a lot of previous rumours, just curious if it has anything else you can mention to give extra merit to it.
Cannot give more details at the moment. But the launch box is called Vigil of Blood and will be previewed way sooner than rules teasers. Maybe teasered as early as next month.
RoyRobHobGob wrote: Cannot give more details at the moment. But the launch box is called Vigil of Blood and will be previewed way sooner than rules teasers. Maybe teasered as early as next month.
That's a nice clear yard stick to work against, the only major "wtf" I can spot is why bring back initiative if you fight only in your own turn and in any order you like?
RoyRobHobGob wrote: Cannot give more details at the moment. But the launch box is called Vigil of Blood and will be previewed way sooner than rules teasers. Maybe teasered as early as next month.
Any comment on the rumored content of the starter ?
It is a bit more complicated than the broad strokes I used. If your initiative is high enough you can interrupt the enmy turn in certain situations. In addition to other purposes.
But that's it for now. Wait for the confirmation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No terminators in the launch box.
RoyRobHobGob wrote: It is a bit more complicated than the broad strokes I used. If your initiative is high enough you can interrupt the enmy turn in certain situations. In addition to other purposes.
But that's it for now. Wait for the confirmation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No terminators in the launch box.
It's kind of odd that in games like AoS there's things like close combat which are operating almost in alternate activation within an I GO YOU GO game system. Perhaps GW wants to reinforce that they are making IGYG games and not considering alternate activation, which would discourage demands for AA systems over what GW is more used to working with.
RoyRobHobGob wrote: It is a bit more complicated than the broad strokes I used. If your initiative is high enough you can interrupt the enmy turn in certain situations. In addition to other purposes.
But that's it for now. Wait for the confirmation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No terminators in the launch box.
But I'll stop now.
I'm throwing the whole salt mine. Just joined this morning, and very first post is to crap on Valrak? Feels more like someone with an axe to grind.
RoyRobHobGob wrote:
- 10th is a complete reset, some extreme changes, but still D6 based
Well now I'm interested.
- still ‘all your units in your turn then all your opponent’s units in his turn’
And less interested.
RoyRobHobGob wrote:If your initiative is high enough you can interrupt the enmy turn in certain situations.
Aaand interested again. Sounds like some kind of resource management?
But it's nice to dream. Let's see what really happens.
RedSarge wrote:Lurker here. So we get two years out of each Edition with modern GW? Then, buy the rulebook, codices and supplements all over again?
I'm seeing stacks of hardback books on the used market for like $5...
Well, for once GW's planned obsolescence is working in my favour. The fluff in old codexes comes with considerably less plastic cement and acrylic paint clogging up all the details.
There's so many varying sets of rumours and leaks atm, often in conflict with each other, but I think we just need something to drop to give us a nod one way or the other at this stage. A potato cam photo, or a document with a title on or something.
The recurring themes though seem to be:
- Terrain becomes the 3rd player again
- A split of comp and casual rules
- Some form of simplification of the stats/dice rolling
- New web based element
Dudeface wrote: There's so many varying sets of rumours and leaks atm, often in conflict with each other, but I think we just need something to drop to give us a nod one way or the other at this stage. A potato cam photo, or a document with a title on or something.
The recurring themes though seem to be:
- Terrain becomes the 3rd player again
- A split of comp and casual rules
- Some form of simplification of the stats/dice rolling
- New web based element
Eh, from compiling them they do not seem that complicated. It looks like the big split is Valrak with his No-reset rumour which is corroborated by some dudes with good reputation on B&C, and then there's the 4chan rumours and two suspiciously large batches of rumours that appeared out of nowhere, cover huge swathes of different things in excruciating detail, and look like they recirculating stuff like the name of the box between them. And also get called out as fake by e.g. Algrim Whitefang.
At the risk of sounding like a fanboy: i'd stick with Valrak on this one at least for now, what he said so for fits in GW's general modus operandi, and the scope of rumours and how far away they are matches the overall quality and specificity of what he has time and time again proven to actually have from solid sources. In contrast, no-one can vouch for any of the 4chan or mystery pastebin stuff, and a newly-registered user that brings material could usually be a troll. It might of course all play out differently, but for now sticking with the people with somewhat of a track record is probably the best approach
Eh right now there might be one or two legit leaks and everything else is noise made up bits of leaks; bits of wishlists; people going for that buzz of being a releaser of information and attention etc...
GW will market it formally when they are ready, considering its a mid-year release and we are only half way through the 2nd month of the year its not really the time. I wouldn't expect anything until the end of March or April at the earliest.
GW marketing typically thinks in 3 month blocks; its rare that we know much if anything outside of a 3 month window. Often when we do its something like Old World or Cities of Sigmar which so far has all been generic concept art style articles and such.
Overread wrote: Eh right now there might be one or two legit leaks and everything else is noise made up bits of leaks; bits of wishlists; people going for that buzz of being a releaser of information and attention etc...
GW will market it formally when they are ready, considering its a mid-year release and we are only half way through the 2nd month of the year its not really the time. I wouldn't expect anything until the end of March or April at the earliest.
GW marketing typically thinks in 3 month blocks; its rare that we know much if anything outside of a 3 month window. Often when we do its something like Old World or Cities of Sigmar which so far has all been generic concept art style articles and such.
Original rumour was Lion at Adepticon and 10th at WHFest in April/May.
Overread wrote: Eh right now there might be one or two legit leaks and everything else is noise made up bits of leaks; bits of wishlists; people going for that buzz of being a releaser of information and attention etc...
GW will market it formally when they are ready, considering its a mid-year release and we are only half way through the 2nd month of the year its not really the time. I wouldn't expect anything until the end of March or April at the earliest.
GW marketing typically thinks in 3 month blocks; its rare that we know much if anything outside of a 3 month window. Often when we do its something like Old World or Cities of Sigmar which so far has all been generic concept art style articles and such.
Original rumour was Lion at Adepticon and 10th at WHFest in April/May.
Friday next week we'll get the first Tarot card for book 5, i expect at least some hints towards the Lion any day now. Maybe the title of 'Farsight' gets officially revealed today or this weekend, it's about time.
8th edition was first mentioned alongside a DG teaser at Adepticon in March 2017, with further rules details in April and Primaris marines not shown off until May. Then Dark Imperium released in June.
If the preview/release timeline continues as-is we're looking at something like:
Farsight / Snikrot unveiled late Feb / early March.I'm expecting them on consecutive Mondays.
AOO book 3 released early March alongside Azrael / Vashtorr
The Lion revealed at Adepticon in March, along with a teaser for 10E. This might give enough details to confirm one of these sets of rumours.
AOO book 4 released early April alongside Farsight / Snikrot
Further details at Warhammerfest end of April
AOO book 5 released early May with the Lion
10th edition in June
RoyRobHobGob wrote: Cannot give more details at the moment. But the launch box is called Vigil of Blood and will be previewed way sooner than rules teasers. Maybe teasered as early as next month.
So you're saying that one with all the digital stuff is the true one?
Been so many different rumours at this point it's getting pretty absurd.
RoyRobHobGob wrote: It is a bit more complicated than the broad strokes I used. If your initiative is high enough you can interrupt the enmy turn in certain situations. In addition to other purposes.
But that's it for now. Wait for the confirmation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No terminators in the launch box.
But I'll stop now.
I'm throwing the whole salt mine. Just joined this morning, and very first post is to crap on Valrak? Feels more like someone with an axe to grind.
Counter point: nobody with genuinely sensitive info to share is using their own account/account credentials to do so.
RoyRobHobGob wrote: It is a bit more complicated than the broad strokes I used. If your initiative is high enough you can interrupt the enmy turn in certain situations. In addition to other purposes.
But that's it for now. Wait for the confirmation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No terminators in the launch box.
But I'll stop now.
I'm throwing the whole salt mine. Just joined this morning, and very first post is to crap on Valrak? Feels more like someone with an axe to grind.
Counter point: nobody with genuinely sensitive info to share is using their own account/account credentials to do so.
Plus everyone has to start somewhere.
That's the game though, isn't it?
Yes. Besides someone posting for the first time rumours here has more credibility than someone who actively makes an income out of posting rumours.
Personally, i think they're bunk, but who even knows anymore.
I think they are bunk, only because this would get me back into 40K big time. Right now I am just trying to catch up to see what I missed. I need to buy so many books, that it just turns me away. I don't want to buy a book that is already obsolete in two weeks. GW doing something different than an IGUO system I wanted so bad. Only thing to get me back. I have learned not to get hope up when it comes to GW and they always seem to disapoint.
RoyRobHobGob wrote: It is a bit more complicated than the broad strokes I used. If your initiative is high enough you can interrupt the enmy turn in certain situations. In addition to other purposes.
But that's it for now. Wait for the confirmation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No terminators in the launch box.
But I'll stop now.
I'm throwing the whole salt mine. Just joined this morning, and very first post is to crap on Valrak? Feels more like someone with an axe to grind.
Counter point: nobody with genuinely sensitive info to share is using their own account/account credentials to do so.
Plus everyone has to start somewhere.
That's the game though, isn't it?
Yes. Besides someone posting for the first time rumours here has more credibility than someone who actively makes an income out of posting rumours.
Conversely I can't recall the last time anyone credible used Dakka to post anything for the first time.
I have a hard believing anything that talks about a major reset, just simply because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a business perspective. They had to throw everything out for 8th, because 7th was failing and 40k was shrinking. 9th edition on the other hand has been the most successful edition of 40k ever.
Which is why it would be very surprising that they would take such a massive risk with a entire new edition rewrite, when they already clearly have a very successful formula. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Sasori wrote: I have a hard believing anything that talks about a major reset, just simply because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a business perspective. They had to throw everything out for 8th, because 7th was failing and 40k was shrinking. 9th edition on the other hand has been the most successful edition of 40k ever.
Which is why it would be very surprising that they would take such a massive risk with a entire new edition rewrite, when they already clearly have a very successful formula. It just doesn't make sense to me.
It feels like we're at a tipping point back to that 7th ed "eurgh not another set of crap" position and the stipulation has been they want the game to be more user friendly for people segwaying in from potential licensed franchises, ala TV shows.
RoyRobHobGob wrote: It is a bit more complicated than the broad strokes I used. If your initiative is high enough you can interrupt the enmy turn in certain situations. In addition to other purposes.
But that's it for now. Wait for the confirmation.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No terminators in the launch box.
But I'll stop now.
I'm throwing the whole salt mine. Just joined this morning, and very first post is to crap on Valrak? Feels more like someone with an axe to grind.
Counter point: nobody with genuinely sensitive info to share is using their own account/account credentials to do so.
Plus everyone has to start somewhere.
That's the game though, isn't it?
Yes. Besides someone posting for the first time rumours here has more credibility than someone who actively makes an income out of posting rumours.
Conversely I can't recall the last time anyone credible used Dakka to post anything for the first time.
I vaguely remember potato pics leaks and such from new accounts, there used to be rumour credible folks back in the day.
Sasori wrote: I have a hard believing anything that talks about a major reset, just simply because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a business perspective. They had to throw everything out for 8th, because 7th was failing and 40k was shrinking. 9th edition on the other hand has been the most successful edition of 40k ever.
Which is why it would be very surprising that they would take such a massive risk with a entire new edition rewrite, when they already clearly have a very successful formula. It just doesn't make sense to me.
The whole machine is fuelled by change, there's no risk as such, they'll keep churning out new releases, people will keep buying them. The change is how they get existing customers to buy old stuff they didn't pick up before, or expand on whatever they do own already. Any success is in spite of, not because of the rules. There's plenty of credible reasons people may be attracted to 40K, but the actual ruleset I'd suggest isn't all that near the top.
Sasori wrote: I have a hard believing anything that talks about a major reset, just simply because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a business perspective. They had to throw everything out for 8th, because 7th was failing and 40k was shrinking. 9th edition on the other hand has been the most successful edition of 40k ever.
Which is why it would be very surprising that they would take such a massive risk with a entire new edition rewrite, when they already clearly have a very successful formula. It just doesn't make sense to me.
It feels like we're at a tipping point back to that 7th ed "eurgh not another set of crap" position and the stipulation has been they want the game to be more user friendly for people segwaying in from potential licensed franchises, ala TV shows.
But then the Amazon show is easily multiple years off at this point - they have just started doing the preleminary paperwork to even start production, so we're looking for most to all of 2023 for pre-production, writing, casting and scouting, 2024-2025 for actual shooting and then perhaps a premiere in mid to late 2025 or even 2026. At that point we're already starting to talk about 11th edition. And, on top of that, 10th would have been in a pretty advanced state of development when that whole story about the Amazon series was first rumoured, so i don't think that any considerations about that had much of a chance to influence 10th's design paradigms.
Sasori wrote: I have a hard believing anything that talks about a major reset, just simply because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a business perspective.
We had people defending Votaan with no fixes. You really think people wouldn't buy up whatever drivel GW releases?
a reset were everyone has to buy everything again while the big promise that "this time" everything will be perfect which will boost sales into the sky
is the perfect business perspective for GW
if it will work, we will see
but given that people are now defending a 6% increase were last years 5% increase caused an internet outrage, this will be the best selling version of 40k
Every new edition is "The best edition ever."... even when it's not.
Some of these rumors are intriguing, but the prospect of having another edition that will pander to the GT crowd gives me pause, and the prospect of two disparate modes of play, one targeting non-GT play and another specifically for GT-play is a serious red flag.
From Pastebin: GT is its separate ecosystem now, with its own rules, profiles and point costs.
Fragmenting W40K into effectively two different systems is the pinnacle of gak ideas. Crusade was a non-starter, so too will any differing mode of play if there also exists a Matched Play mode. If simplification and consolidation is the goal, two disparate modes of play would be its antithesis.
I don't know, but if the two-system thing is true... it could be the catalyst that pushes me to put away my dice for good.
oni wrote: Fragmenting W40K into effectively two different systems is the pinnacle of gak ideas. Crusade was a non-starter, so too will any differing mode of play if there also exists a Matched Play mode. If simplification and consolidation is the goal, two disparate modes of play would be its antithesis.
Well, that is most certainly a spicy take for a Friday.
Crimson wrote: I hope this isn't true. Fixed loadouts on GT seems like a terrible idea, and it would most likely become the expected standard for pick up games too.
Conversely it might be possible to actually balance the damned thing a bit better.
oni wrote: Fragmenting W40K into effectively two different systems is the pinnacle of gak ideas. Crusade was a non-starter, so too will any differing mode of play if there also exists a Matched Play mode. If simplification and consolidation is the goal, two disparate modes of play would be its antithesis.
Well, that is most certainly a spicy take for a Friday.
The good old "if I don't use it no one else must use it either". Classic.
You know, for those of us who aren't tournament try-hards, Crusade is an absolute blessing. I love it WAY more than the tournament scene and wish more poeple would adopt it as standard. My FLGS is currently running a year-long Crusade, and I'm having a blast.
You know, for those of us who aren't tournament try-hards, Crusade is an absolute blessing. I love it WAY more than the tournament scene and wish more poeple would adopt it as standard. My FLGS is currently running a year-long Crusade, and I'm having a blast.
Yeah, Crusade is by far my favourite way to play - and narrative play is always going to popular for people who enjoy the setting and lore.
Sasori wrote: I have a hard believing anything that talks about a major reset, just simply because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense from a business perspective. They had to throw everything out for 8th, because 7th was failing and 40k was shrinking. 9th edition on the other hand has been the most successful edition of 40k ever.
Which is why it would be very surprising that they would take such a massive risk with a entire new edition rewrite, when they already clearly have a very successful formula. It just doesn't make sense to me.
It feels like we're at a tipping point back to that 7th ed "eurgh not another set of crap" position and the stipulation has been they want the game to be more user friendly for people segwaying in from potential licensed franchises, ala TV shows.
That's a pretty interesting take.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: The whole machine is fuelled by change, there's no risk as such, they'll keep churning out new releases, people will keep buying them. The change is how they get existing customers to buy old stuff they didn't pick up before, or expand on whatever they do own already. Any success is in spite of, not because of the rules. There's plenty of credible reasons people may be attracted to 40K, but the actual ruleset I'd suggest isn't all that near the top.
So if I'm hearing this right...Magnus did nothing wrong and Tzeentch is the most powerful god?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tsagualsa wrote: But then the Amazon show is easily multiple years off at this point - they have just started doing the preleminary paperwork to even start production, so we're looking for most to all of 2023 for pre-production, writing, casting and scouting, 2024-2025 for actual shooting and then perhaps a premiere in mid to late 2025 or even 2026. At that point we're already starting to talk about 11th edition. And, on top of that, 10th would have been in a pretty advanced state of development when that whole story about the Amazon series was first rumoured, so i don't think that any considerations about that had much of a chance to influence 10th's design paradigms.
There are some pretty big games hitting sooner as well as that new animation.
Fascinating. Yeah, hard to put much faith in this latest set of rumors. They just seem way off the mark, changing things for the sake of changing things. I know GW does that, but initiative returning while wound rolls go away? Yeah, nah.
Someone's pulling the whole goat to laugh at our expense. But hey, that's internet cliques for you. People with so much time on their hands that they post in forums trying to make it so that THEIR "rumors" become the gospel so that when THEIR rumors turn out false, everyone gets mad at... GW.
The only thing I do know is that GW have pulled away from playtesters and have started to watermark documents and photographs with the persons NAME on them when the documents do go out, so leaking images is really, really unlikely to happen until someone actually gets the real product in hand. That's the only reason we don't have images of some of the rumored stuff that's coming out. People are actually scared of being pinned for the leaks this time around.
On the one hand... good? You presumably signed an NDA to become a playtester or get other early access material, so stick to the NDA.
On the other, it's a shame, but in theory that's where we get the slightly less precise text-based rumours (rather than images), as paraphrasing is trickier to track down on.
You would expect the paraphrasing to differ slightly from individual to individual, but some broad-brush trends should be identifiable if people are working from the same starting point.
Dysartes wrote: On the one hand... good? You presumably signed an NDA to become a playtester or get other early access material, so stick to the NDA.
Nah, people should break GW's NDA as often as possible. As long as playtesters are permitted to continue participating in competitive play all of GW's playtest material needs to be public.
Dysartes wrote: On the one hand... good? You presumably signed an NDA to become a playtester or get other early access material, so stick to the NDA.
Nah, people should break GW's NDA as often as possible. As long as playtesters are permitted to continue participating in competitive play all of GW's playtest material needs to be public.
Your takes continue to score a goose-egg on the scoreboard.
rumors help to spur discussion and hype, but have the danger of breaking expectations when something doesn't pan out the way people were hoping they would.
Actual leaks tend to ruin the hype, and once the leak is out, it can actually stifle a lot of discussion, to the point that people just sit around waiting for the thing to be released rather than hyped that something is coming.
When big announcements like Angron are predated by a potato-cam pic, then it spoils the wonder and surprise, because as long as things are text-based, there's still a possibility of them being false... but a picture is a lot harder to doctor up an fool people. (It happens, just less often).
that nonsense. Selling new codices and new AoO books that will only be valid for a couple of months is not ok.
So says the rules department chief monkey.
I understand that some people browse by phone or from some other device where they can't always provide links or pictures etc. themselves. It's all good.
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