So your argument all along was that when multiple units of the enemy army, or just incredibly shooty units, pour their entire firepower against a 50 point Razorback, it dies, and that's what you call "dying the first time it's shot at". On what merits exactly are you arguing against anyone in this thread about the future of 40K or the metagame overall? It's more than hilarious that as an example you choose Long Fangs which can split fire, meaning, if before the enemy thought he would need 5 Long Fangs against a Rhino, he would now split fire the 5 missiles against two Rhinos and kill or remove wounds from both of them. I'm dying a little inside when even trying to figure out what your actual point is. What kind of garbage do you play against? Armies that brought three 'blocks' of anti-tank firepower, meaning that because you brought 8 Razorbacks you are at an insane advantage? That's your point?
When talking about dying in a single shot I had been talking about the viability of mech spam, min maxing, and MSU builds. Those are based around bricks of high volume firepower with vehicular outliers that provide good numbers of special/heavy weapons per point. "They died in the first shot anyway" was in comment to the fact that anti mech firepower tends to be an all or nothing affair. Hydras, psyfledreads, devastators, land speeders, ravagers, etc can't split fire. The long fangs can, but will generally split fire between two transports on the hopes that it can take out both. It wasn't really a meaningful inclusion since it doesn't actually invalidate the concept of MSU. It's the only unit in the game capable of doing that and it can't bring to bear enough firepower to reliably kill two av11 tanks a turn. It also doesn't invalidate MSU since long fangs are quite likely the best single example of a min maxed unit in 40k.
MSU is a defensive stratagem that takes advantage of the built in superiority of min maxing in 40k while taking advantage of any opponent who didn't do the same. By having many low value targets with a lot of firepower you invalidate enemy shooting by making most of it "overkill", or by providing too many targets for your opponent to kill in the course of the game. laserbacks are 70 point lascanons, barely more expensive than a devastator with a lascanon and less than a terminator with cyclone. It's comparably resilient to the terminator and your opponent must exert significantly more points in killing it then you lose in the exchange.
If you don't want to actually engage in the discussions I was having please don't interject to say I'm wrong. I don't even know what your point was. A poster said that razors were far too flimsy to make razorspam a useful strategem and I said that "most tended to die in one shot anyway". They did. You didn't nickle and dime razorbacks to death, they exploded when an anti mech squad looked at them or when 3 meltaguns get in range. The entire point of MSU is to make it so that your opponent spends 200+ points to kill one 70 point las plas while you spend your firepower killing enemies of much more worth. It's about attrition and good trades.
I find it very unlikely that sixth will reduce the incidence of MSU. If anything shooty builds and especially MSU are getting more powerful given the weakening of cover and the removal of fifth editions version of kill points.
MajorTom11 wrote:I will be actually learning to play 40k for the first time this edition hopefully.
LOL! What a n00b!
I am lol! But I will learn , lot of great people around here to ask.
To the big debaters that have been going back and forth today - I am having a great time reading your posts and debate, honestly it is interesting and to me pretty high level stuff. I think everyone can benefit from all your expertise, however, try to keep it light, disagreement doesn't need to be aggressive or get personal, you are all smart enough to continue the debate without insinuating things about other people's personalities or whether they have the right to speak.
Nothing you just said actually applies to what I said, man. I'm not saying you can dodge a bullet once it's going towards you. You obviously can't. You can dodge gunfire, though, because you can see a gun coming up and avoid it. At close distances, this is easier than at medium distances. Go look at some Youtube videos of police encounters or robberies.
TedNugent wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:
TedNugent wrote:Then again, the idea of "hull points" is ridiculous from an RP standpoint, and it's in the game, so I don't know.
In real life, vehicle crews often abandon their tanks if they take one penetrating hit.
Ok, how many Tiger I crewmen abandoned their tanks after having multiple 2 pounder shells bounce harmlessly off their frontal armor?
Beats me, but having shots hit you and not do anything don't really qualify as penetrating, do they?
Somehow glossed over this in my post! This is also attributed to therion and followed what I quoted from him last.
You tell me then how the flow of battle goes for 6 Razorbacks with GH, 3 Long Fang squads and 3 units of TWC and an assortment of heroes, against an army with 8 flyers like some of the lists me and Maelstrom have posted on the army lists forum. Many other types of lists than those will emerge, and the end result will be that Razorspam is simply gone from the competitive circuit. When even two army books build TAC lists that table Razorspams of all varieties in under four turns, that army is simply no longer viable and its' removal from the deck of competitive armies has further chain effects in the metagame. Feel free to rage against change. You'll just end up as one of those wash outs who have to copy a GT winner's list later.
Well first of all the list you posted had an illegal number of troops. You need four.
I think you'll start to have issues when all your flyers come in different reserve turns. They have to be in reserve if you remember. Then all your squadrons actually get to do is shoot 3 razorbacks if you get them all. Unless the squadron rules changed in sixth (I don't have the book) you still have to shoot the same target, do you not? Thus you are wasting ~450 points to kill 70. Flyers are also very limited in the movements they get to make, minimum 18" with only a 90 degree turn means you might end up with nothing to shoot at all. Your army certainly could beat them, guard did mech spam better then wolves in my opinion, but if I remember right vendettas only have two hull points since they're flyers, so they're going to go down quick.
Your listed army works on the exact same principles and really only serves to prove my point. It's an MSU mech spam list. So is the necron list you mentioned. You're not disproving what I was saying. You don't even seem to be arguing against my points. If you just want to say that razospam specifically might die, maybe. It was never the best MSU build out there. But now you're looking into the future of the games meta and using untested lists from a ruleset that isn't out to prove your points. That doesn't seem very honest to me.
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MajorTom11 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
MajorTom11 wrote:I will be actually learning to play 40k for the first time this edition hopefully.
LOL! What a n00b!
I am lol! But I will learn , lot of great people around here to ask.
To the big debaters that have been going back and forth today - I am having a great time reading your posts and debate, honestly it is interesting and to me pretty high level stuff. I think everyone can benefit from all your expertise, however, try to keep it light, disagreement doesn't need to be aggressive or get personal, you are all smart enough to continue the debate without insinuating things about other people's personalities or whether they have the right to speak.
Anyone else exited about fortifications?
Fortress of Redemption- "set includes a twin-linked lascannon interceptor gun, two heavy bolters and a missile silo." I love the interceptor and I can't wait to see what the missile silo will have as stats!
Skyshield landing pad- "Landing pads are launch bases used by flight-capable craft to unload or evacuate troops and vital personnel. and has field generators that protect the craft and its crew from incoming fire." Worded like you may have a hard time dropping off troops if you don't use the pad!
Imperial Bastion- "resilient enough to withstand an orbital bombardment, set includes an Icarus-pattern lascannon and additional components for personalising this modular building." it shows it having 4 heavy bolters (one on each side).
Aegis defense line- "set includes four double blast shield sections and four single blast shield sections, they provide 28" of defence lines. Also included is a quad-gun emplacement that can be placed onto one of two different mounts supplied." I wonder what the stats are on the gun and barricades, the gun looks to be 2 TL autocannons though.
Imperial Strongpoint- "including two plastic Bastions and three plastic Aegis Defence Lines." Wow, that is 2 Icarus lascannons, 8 Heavy bolters (or something else), 84" of defense, and what looks to be 3x 2TL autocannons. Lot of firepower.
I personally think that the fortress of redemption looks like it will have the most heavy firepower, while the others are geared for anti infantry and light vehicle takedown. Am happy that I can use this aegis defense line that has been literally collecting dust on the top shelf unpainted that I bought for a rifleman dread conversion. What do you guys think of it all?
Wowza, so they did balance out allies... armies that are "unwilling" allies might not be desireable, and also restricting what you can take is nice too. I'm sure it will be in the FAQ that, for example, if necrons/blood angels ally, you cannot take special characters and things, and if two units are within 12" of one another on a roll of a 1 they do nothing that turn. So while there may be some great combos to be found it'll probably be balanced out in the end for the mostpart. Also, I'm not too worried about the multiple FOC's at 2k+... seems to me from what we're seeing that taking lots of heavies and things is more detrimental in many missions, as well as the fact that armor and things are greatly nerfed while things like MC's got greatly buffed. Really stinks with the power weapons though, yet another blow to "nerf wyches into sucking!" Now my dark lances will be my primary terminator killers lol
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Hulksmash wrote:I think Daemons w/a IG blob including 5 HWT's is gonna be just nasty
Balances out in the end tho; those HWT's are cutting into points you'd normally use for soul grinders, fiends, and crushers :( Assuming you take Plague squads normally for troops, whom are cheap as hell.
I am pretty sure you cannot take Imperial Strongpoint. You can take Aegis, Bastion, Fortress or Landing. The 1st post have some info on what each does. I think fortifications are simply anti-air mostly.
leohart wrote:I am pretty sure you cannot take Imperial Strongpoint. You can take Aegis, Bastion, Fortress or Landing. The 1st post have some info on what each does. I think fortifications are simply anti-air mostly.
I don't see them not letting you take imperial strongpoints, its their most expensive one, so my guess is they will try to sell it by making it the best you can get. But ya, I did see that post, but it just doesn't make sense to me personally that they won't try to reel in that $135.
Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book
l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book
Thunderfrog wrote:Eldar question (hypothetical of course.):
Do you think a Farseer + Seer Council will count as one choice as far as allies are concerned?
I'l love to bring in the above mentioned and 1 or 2 squads of pathfinders as an Eldar / Tau alliance.
If the Seer Council doesn't take up a HQ slot then I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to take one. Same thing goes for a Necron Overloard with his Royal Court. The Royal Court doesn't take up a HQ slot so should be available for an allied force if you take an Overlord.
l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book
l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book
l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book
Like that surprises anyone :p
Anything with a + shaped flying base is a flyer, it is a flyer base
lol Doesn't surprise me one bit, I was just posting to confirm it for people.
I would have been more surprised if they weren't. Hey, this Razorwing might LOOK like a supersonic aircraft, but in reality all it does is float and shoot :3
l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book
l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book
I haven't been paying more than a glance here and there at this forum as the majority of it is foggy speculation about something that I'd rather read first hand from the source.
That said, one thing of personal interest (which may have been addressed already) is whether or not there will be updated rules for Kill Teams. Is there any information about that?
leohart wrote:A Bastion with an AA gun is cheaper than a squad of sniper scouts. AV14 too. What's not to like?
The fact that it sits their, gets glanced to death and dies? not to mention most likely BS 2 and no cover saves EVER!!!! of course, its still a nice addition
Thats assuming vehicles are common, plus now we'll have to run something to take down aircraft (give those DP's bolts!). But yeah, could work well! I'm a fateweaver kinda guy, and the new Daemon fear rule really makes me hot and bothered to run some hounds/seekers... more beasts the better, they ignore terrain now! But we'll see how the "you can only take certain stuff" pans out.... As I said, I reckon they balanced it pretty decently I hope (i.e. Pallyspam GK cannot take a farseer....)
leohart wrote:A Bastion with an AA gun is cheaper than a squad of sniper scouts. AV14 too. What's not to like?
Ah yes, but can a bastion move or score? So there seems to be a pretty good balance, and of course in a bastion your unit is useless. But ya, I can see people spending the bare minimum point units and throwing them in a bastion.
I am pretty sure the gun is manned by a model and uses his BS. The bastion comes with HB on all four sides that doesn't require manning. Bastion have fire points and models inside can shoot out without being targeted.
If I can provide an AV14 fire magnets that take away those lascannon shots, I am pretty happy. Plus, I can always put my objective in my bastion. :-)
leohart wrote:I am pretty sure the gun is manned by a model and uses his BS. The bastion comes with HB on all four sides that doesn't require manning. Bastion have fire points and models inside can shoot out without being targeted.
If I can provide an AV14 fire magnets that take away those lascannon shots, I am pretty happy. Plus, I can always put my objective in my bastion. :-)
I don't think you'll be able to put the objective inside your fortification, that'd be like putting an objective inside your vehicle.
shank911 wrote:There should be a negative effect for you failing to get that charge though.
Because it allows, armies 12 inches out to be like what the hell lets go for it. And that I know of there is no minus to rolling under except you don't charge.
Uh...so let me understand this.
Player A declares a charge with his Death Company-all armed with power swords/fists, etc-really scary bastards-at Player B's Firewarriors 15 inches from where Player A's Death Company landed after moving. Player A decided to roll the dice-to never look back, and never think twice-and rolls 7 inches. The Angry Marines seethe their rage as they sit there-and take a salvo of s5 shooting (snap-fire), within Half-Distance of Player B's Firewarriors-a full size squad of 12.
Then it's Player B's turn-uh oh, Player A's Nasty Angry Vampire squad is sitting out in the middle of the map Crying cause Daddy left, but not doing very much. Player B shoots Player A's Death Company with Markerlights, and then assigns Crisis Suits and such to cleanse them with Plasma and Melta.
That several hundred point Deathstar that's really nasty given the new Rage USR, AND Furious Charge AND Feel No Pain, get's it's sad/angry ass chopped to chum in shooting because Player A rolled under.
l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book
shank911 wrote:There should be a negative effect for you failing to get that charge though.
Because it allows, armies 12 inches out to be like what the hell lets go for it. And that I know of there is no minus to rolling under except you don't charge.
Uh...so let me understand this.
Player A declares a charge with his Death Company-all armed with power swords/fists, etc-really scary bastards-at Player B's Firewarriors 15 inches from where Player A's Death Company landed after moving. Player A decided to roll the dice-to never look back, and never think twice-and rolls 7 inches. The Angry Marines seethe their rage as they sit there-and take a salvo of s5 shooting (snap-fire), within Half-Distance of Player B's Firewarriors-a full size squad of 12.
Then it's Player B's turn-uh oh, Player A's Nasty Angry Vampire squad is sitting out in the middle of the map Crying cause Daddy left, but not doing very much. Player B shoots Player A's Death Company with Markerlights, and then assigns Crisis Suits and such to cleanse them with Plasma and Melta.
That several hundred point Deathstar that's really nasty given the new Rage USR, AND Furious Charge AND Feel No Pain, get's it's sad/angry ass chopped to chum in shooting because Player A rolled under.
How is that not negative shank911?
How is it any different from now?
Any squad of Fire Warriors not using some sort of cover deserves to get butchered, and if it was in cover, you still were rolling to see if you get there.
The only difference between then and now is ..
A) You can attempt the charge from 12 inches instead of 6 and save yourself another turn of shooting.
B) Twelve Fire Warriors get to try and shoot you at BS 1 (possibly 2 if the Targeting Array kicks in on defensive fire.)
12 guys needing sixes averages 2 hits and very likely only of 1 save, which you get a 3+ 5++ against.
Oh noes! Sarcasm aside, I agree with you. Failing the charge is bad enough... and if they implemented a system like Fantasy where you sortve stumble forward it would be even worse, because then failing charges STILL get you closer to assault. (I guess it renders you likely out of cover and in the open, and probably more open to counter charges?)
deggreg@yahoo.com wrote: i love this concept, going to save me money..instead of starting a whole new army, I can just buy some and mix with current SW army...awesome
That's not saving money at all.
You decided to not get a new army, because it would be too expensive. You spend zero, and GW gains nothing.
But now you can go out and buy whatever you want. That's at least an HQ and a troops, and you have the rest of the allies matrix to fill in. With the ability to add a second troops choice and swap out any of the other 1 slots, you are then spending money you wouldn't have, and I'd bet you'd end up with an army in the end.
Which, of course, is exactly why Allies were added. I've got to say, it's a brilliant method by GW to wring more money out of their playerbase.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:So I keep hearing something about Jump Infantry being I10 on the charge, has that been verified? Cause if so, my DoA lists just became top tier...
They get one free I10 auto hit on the charge, that doesn't count as an actual attack.
It's at your base strength (so 4 for a Space Marine) and AP -.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:So I keep hearing something about Jump Infantry being I10 on the charge, has that been verified? Cause if so, my DoA lists just became top tier...
There was something about an attack at their Strength at I10, which I think is supposed to represent them landing on the charged unit foot first. I don't think all their attacks are at I10, just an extra one.
l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book
Like that surprises anyone :p Anything with a + shaped flying base is a flyer, it is a flyer base
Does that mean that they're finally standardizing these bases? Do skimmers have to have the skimmer base now?
Skimmers are supposed to be using the Skimmer Bases now, since it's in the rules that you are required to use the bases provided.
Where in the rulebook is that..?
Page 3, under Bases.
"Citadel models are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game."
Of course, nobody glues the skimmers onto the bases, but they must be mounted on the base.
And what about the models that don't come on bases? Or come on the wrong sized base? That sentence doesn't actually regulate base size. In fact, grammatically it exempts vehicles where GW forgot to put a base in the box and it implies that any model can be on any sized base as long as it came in the box.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:So I keep hearing something about Jump Infantry being I10 on the charge, has that been verified? Cause if so, my DoA lists just became top tier...
They get one free I10 auto hit on the charge, that doesn't count as an actual attack.
It's at your base strength (so 4 for a Space Marine) and AP -.
Dang, knew it was too good to be true. That's still pretty good though, against GEQ it should a least get a couple kills in to soften them up.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:So I keep hearing something about Jump Infantry being I10 on the charge, has that been verified? Cause if so, my DoA lists just became top tier...
There was something about an attack at their Strength at I10, which I think is supposed to represent them landing on the charged unit foot first. I don't think all their attacks are at I10, just an extra one.
And I wonder if you get any special rules on that extra hit, such as a Wraith's Rending ability.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:So I keep hearing something about Jump Infantry being I10 on the charge, has that been verified? Cause if so, my DoA lists just became top tier...
There was something about an attack at their Strength at I10, which I think is supposed to represent them landing on the charged unit foot first. I don't think all their attacks are at I10, just an extra one.
And I wonder if you get any special rules on that extra hit, such as a Wraith's Rending ability.
Fingers crossed. Wraiths could really use the help to be competitive.
Looks to me like a lot of people are supposing that the oint structure of the game will remain the same. What I see is that we will have 1999 and below and 2000+. Those will be two very different games. Basically Apoc has been folded into regular 40k.
Why? They want us who have maxed forces for the old FOC to buy more expensive models.
Does that mean the gmae will be bad? Heck no!
It does mean, however:
Tournies will change.
The meta cycle will restart.
3 entirely different metas will exist (1999, 2k, Allied).
Can anyone really say this is bad?
BlackMath wrote:Looks to me like a lot of people are supposing that the oint structure of the game will remain the same. What I see is that we will have 1999 and below and 2000+. Those will be two very different games. Basically Apoc has been folded into regular 40k.
Why? They want us who have maxed forces for the old FOC to buy more expensive models.
Does that mean the gmae will be bad? Heck no!
It does mean, however:
Tournies will change.
The meta cycle will restart.
3 entirely different metas will exist (1999, 2k, Allied).
Can anyone really say this is bad?
So I take with this whole "2nd FoC after 2000 pts" rule, that games are no longer capped at 2500 points?
l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book
Like that surprises anyone :p
Anything with a + shaped flying base is a flyer, it is a flyer base
Does that mean that they're finally standardizing these bases? Do skimmers have to have the skimmer base now?
Skimmers are supposed to be using the Skimmer Bases now, since it's in the rules that you are required to use the bases provided.
Where in the rulebook is that..?
Page 3, under Bases.
"Citadel models are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game."
Of course, nobody glues the skimmers onto the bases, but they must be mounted on the base.
And what about the models that don't come on bases? Or come on the wrong sized base? That sentence doesn't actually regulate base size. In fact, grammatically it exempts vehicles where GW forgot to put a base in the box and it implies that any model can be on any sized base as long as it came in the box.
Well, it's not hard to figure out which base is required, and vehicles don't typically come with one. Skimmers do, however, and they are provided with a base.
And, for using a different (scenic) base size, you have to ask your opponent if it's alright.
As fun as arguing semantics is, your skimmers need to use a base. The only ones that could position properly without looking bad/standing on a fiddly bit is the Tau ones, so...
Are you using your Hammerheads without bases to make them smaller targets?
l0k1 wrote:Don't know if anyone noticed but on GW website their newest article confirms that the Valkyrie, Vendetta, Stormraven, and Razorwing now count as fliers as per the new rule book
Like that surprises anyone :p
Anything with a + shaped flying base is a flyer, it is a flyer base
Does that mean that they're finally standardizing these bases? Do skimmers have to have the skimmer base now?
Skimmers are supposed to be using the Skimmer Bases now, since it's in the rules that you are required to use the bases provided.
Where in the rulebook is that..?
Page 3, under Bases.
"Citadel models are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game."
Of course, nobody glues the skimmers onto the bases, but they must be mounted on the base.
And what about the models that don't come on bases? Or come on the wrong sized base? That sentence doesn't actually regulate base size. In fact, grammatically it exempts vehicles where GW forgot to put a base in the box and it implies that any model can be on any sized base as long as it came in the box.
Well, it's not hard to figure out which base is required, and vehicles don't typically come with one. Skimmers do, however, and they are provided with a base.
And, for using a different (scenic) base size, you have to ask your opponent if it's alright.
As fun as arguing semantics is, your skimmers need to use a base. The only ones that could position properly without looking bad/standing on a fiddly bit is the Tau ones, so...
Are you using your Hammerheads without bases to make them smaller targets?
It's more an issue with things like thundercav, tervigons, soul grinders, marine bikes, tau crisis suits, etc. The game tells you to "use the base", but some things come with more than one and others don't come with any. Other things don't even have models to represent themselves. The number of tau vehicles i've seen off their base easily beats the number i've seen on them, same with crisis suits. Codexes don't tell you what size base to use and there are many situations where it's unclear. It has a very strong effect in the game and I'd like it if GW would take the time or effort to standardize it a bit. As it is they've done the bare minimum to ensure that infantry are on bases at all.
RedOnesGoFasta wrote:Apologies if these have already been answered but I could not find them in the summary post or the past 30 pages. Does anyone know the following:
1. What are the new vehicle squadron rules?
2. Can all units now assault after running since fleet is rumored to be re-roll the assault dice? Or is running even still in the game?
Apparently squadrons are still the same, aside from wound allocation (it's nearest models first now).
No assault after running, but fleet lets you reroll assault dice, and reroll run die if you're running.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:So I keep hearing something about Jump Infantry being I10 on the charge, has that been verified? Cause if so, my DoA lists just became top tier...
They get one free I10 auto hit on the charge, that doesn't count as an actual attack.
It's at your base strength (so 4 for a Space Marine) and AP -.
(EDITED post to make more sense)
So Tau just got good at CC with battlesuits? I can see lots of battlesuits equipped with twin linked plasma and single flamer or perhaps twin linked flamer and single plasma? Auto hit strength 5 hit at I10 possibly with 1 power weapon. After the free hits 3 att per suit or more for a commander all at strength 5. On top of that rapid fire plasma and/or flamer hits you before they CC. Plus when you charge them they get D3 flamer auto hits at you first with a twin linked plasma per suit. Not to mention one of th suits and shield drones might all be armor 2+ with FNP to survive against power weapons.
Fetterkey wrote:Can you explain the specifics of Brothers in Arms? What abilities work with allied armies and what don't?
I suspect that's going to take a lot of FAQing, since most abilities say things like "Eldar unit" because they weren't written with the idea of allies in mind. Rather than being written that way to specifically limit them, the wording wasn't considering the possibility of non-Eldar units in your army.
Fetterkey wrote:Can you explain the specifics of Brothers in Arms? What abilities work with allied armies and what don't?
I suspect that's going to take a lot of FAQing, since most abilities say things like "Eldar unit" because they weren't written with the idea of allies in mind. Rather than being written that way to specifically limit them, the wording wasn't considering the possibility of non-Eldar units in your army.
Can't join allied units or use psychic powers on allied units unless the armies are brothers in arms. The only brothers in arms eldar have is their de cousins. Maledictions like doom should still work to full effect for grudging allies, along with the runes of warding.
By the way, rattman, thank you. Quite helpful for you to volunteer like that.
Should you get the go-ahead, I'd appreciate if you have any insight into these questions, if you can find the answers:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/2760/456706.page#4443867 Also curious as to whether Extra Armour is redefined in the book.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OT: dammit, schadenfreude, I was going to start modeling my Necrons with no mouths, as "The Silent". Now I feel like I'm just going to look like I'm copying you. Blah.
OK other things of note
templates still scatter dice - BS. seen many reference to that changing its the same
Reading the special rules section my first thought is that a impy guard army with space wolf allies you can give the impy gaurd acute senses (which is changed) and they know no fear. Unless I am reading it wrong the marine ATKNF transfers to the impy guard troops
Apoc flyers simply state that they can't be hit by templates or blasts. I'd be surprised if GW would have overlooked such an exploit when even completely balance-oblivious forgeworld managed to catch it.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:So I keep hearing something about Jump Infantry being I10 on the charge, has that been verified? Cause if so, my DoA lists just became top tier...
They get one free I10 auto hit on the charge, that doesn't count as an actual attack.
It's at your base strength (so 4 for a Space Marine) and AP -.
(EDITED post to make more sense)
So Tau just got good at CC with battlesuits? I can see lots of battlesuits equipped with twin linked plasma and single flamer or perhaps twin linked flamer and single plasma? Auto hit strength 5 hit at I10 possibly with 1 power weapon. After the free hits 3 att per suit or more for a commander all at strength 5. On top of that rapid fire plasma and/or flamer hits you before they CC. Plus when you charge them they get D3 flamer auto hits at you first with a twin linked plasma per suit. Not to mention one of th suits and shield drones might all be armor 2+ with FNP to survive against power weapons.
(Please note I said good, not great)
Jump may not equal Jet for the purposes of this rule, we'll see. However, Vespid are definitely Jump, plus fleet and have a nasty assault gun...hmmm.
If a mod says it fine I will. some websites get upset when it changes from Rumors to facts
You should be fine as long as you don't post full tables or extensive verbatim sections of the rules, explaining in your own words how things work and small quotes that serve to illustrate your point will be fine.
Speaking of which, I'd love information on any changes to Open-Topped, and an explanation of what Flyers can use Evade against, whether it immediately takes them off the board or not, and whether a flyer zooming is entitled to a normal jink save like a fast skimmer
It is fine to answer questions as long as you don't post huge chunks of the rules verbatim.
There we go an official answer
Ok 2 points
going to dinner soon
try an make them specifi. No question like "are xxxx going to suck mow"
Drunkspleen wrote:Speaking of which, I'd love information on any changes to Open-Topped, and an explanation of what Flyers can use Evade against, whether it immediately takes them off the board or not, and whether a flyer zooming is entitled to a normal jink save like a fast skimmer
Fetterkey wrote:Do Penetrating Hits remove hull points? The Reddit poster claimed they didn't, but this seems extremely weird.
This, and are there any restrictions on allied units (Special Characters...)?
They are offering Draigo on that allies sales page, it seems highly unlikely that they would do so if you aren't allowed to have special characters amongst your allies.
Rattman just became everyone's best friend, its out on Saturday peeps, if you know everything early you'll just be sad when there are no surprises left :-)
Drunkspleen wrote:Speaking of which, I'd love information on any changes to Open-Topped, and an explanation of what Flyers can use Evade against, whether it immediately takes them off the board or not, and whether a flyer zooming is entitled to a normal jink save like a fast skimmer
+1 on vehicle damage rolls
whole vehicle is an access point
all passengers can shoot
they count assault vehicle (gain the USR)
evade can be used against any to hit roll, they have the jinx USR till the end of your next turn and can only take snap shots. you dont seem to go immediately off the board. you must be zooming to get an evade, which gives you jinx
Automatically Appended Next Post: Penetrating hits remove 1 hull point
coyotius wrote:There were also conflicting stories about rapid fire (stayed the same versus move and shoot to max range).
Yeah, this is a key point for me and the updating-to-6th-edition of my Space Marine Fandex, so if you could answer that Rattman, that would be great, thanks!
Personally, I'd also like to know the changes to vehicle movement and shooting if you could elaborate please?
So if wargear isn't affected by allies restrictions, what could that mean for KFF's
Pre measuring is in? that sounds terrible. talk about making a game longer than it should be as your opponent pre measures everything possible before he makes a move.
I hope that is false. the pre measuring movement was ok but not everything.
schadenfreude wrote:Took another look at the chart and I noticed something interesting.
GK have no brothers in arms (Neither do orks or necrons)
No brothers in arms means psychic powers can't be used on allied units, and GKIC can not join an allied unit.
No adding rad+psych+hammer hand to death company or salamander TH/SS termies.
I am not happy that Dark Angels can ally with Space Wolves. At least knock them down a notch...
and while everyone seems to jotice that Tyranids are left out in the cold, they may ally with themselves. Can armies ally with themselves to double up on some necessities?
"What I love about the new Allied Detatchment rules is, they capture a flavor of the WH40K universe."
What flavor is that? Bad? Terrible? 'Cause, you know, SoB with Eldar has been so prevelent in recent years. Same goes for that rich history of Tau summoning Daemons and Gretchin supporting Space Wolves!
"How many of the great battles in the history, which have featured not just one army but an alliance between two forces pressed against the enemy?"
Um... IG and Marines? Chaos and Daemons? Oh... and Blood Angels and Necrons.
I think he only remembers the most recent of these "great battles".
He was talking about real world battles like say the English and Americans vs the Germans. Although I agree with the rest of your stuff.
coyotius wrote:There were also conflicting stories about rapid fire (stayed the same versus move and shoot to max range).
Yeah, this is a key point for me and the updating-to-6th-edition of my Space Marine Fandex, so if you could answer that Rattman, that would be great, thanks!
Personally, I'd also like to know the changes to vehicle movement and shooting if you could elaborate please?
I couldnt find anything pro or con moving and rapid firing
the fluff saying "can be used to fire from the hip when advancing" I will leave that for when I get a chance to read later
azazel the cat wrote:How does Rending work?
on a roll of target suffers 1 wound as it was an AP 2 hit, vehicles get an extra d3
Can Fliers be targeted with Blast weapons?
not while in zoom mode
How do Force Weapons work?
force sword are ap3
force axe ap2
stave ap4
force if thers an unsaved would the wielder can use a force charge (need to check that) and make a force roll. all unsaved wound are ID
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:I am not happy that Dark Angels can ally with Space Wolves. At least knock them down a notch...
and while everyone seems to jotice that Tyranids are left out in the cold, they may ally with themselves. Can armies ally with themselves to double up on some necessities?
Knowing out luck? Not likely.
Which means in a world of 2000 point games with 7 Heavy Support slots (6 normal, 1 ally) the 'nids will be left in the cold unless they can ally with themselves.
Crazyterran wrote:All these people with the rulebook, and nobodys posted all of the Psychic Powers yet.
Sad panda. Saaaad panda.
Psychic Powers are for weaklings anyway. Real men play without Psychic Powers!
Any clarification on Rapid Fire weapons would be awesome. As far as I got it, it seems that you can fire 1 shot at 24'' even when moving or double tap at 12''...which seems to be Relentless useless.
RogueRegault wrote:GKs of course lack Battle Brothers to prevent the inevitable psyker splash you'd see in every army.
It's a shame the GK and Inquisitors are in the same army list. GK are a standalone strike force, but Inquisitors should show up everywhere but the Space Wolves (and Dark Angels?).
All these people with the rulebook, and nobodys posted all of the Psychic Powers yet.
way to many powers to list
Any clarification on Rapid Fire weapons would be awesome. As far as I got it, it seems that you can fire 1 shot at 24'' even when moving or double tap at 12''...which seems to be Relentless useless.
Any clarification would be greatly appreciated!
you can rapid fire and charge if you are relentless
I'm quite looking forward to Allies. I'm planning on getting the renegade Enforcers from FW and using them as Commissars to make a small Traitor Guard force to go with my IW (thus allowing me to take artillary!).
I think i am getting confused with Overwatch and Snapshot (lots of contradicting posts flying around)..
Snapshot = fire a weapon you can't normally but at BS1 (so a lascannon marine can move and fire at BS1, a tank can move 12" and fire all its guns at BS1 for example)
Overwatch = a free round of shooting at BS1 at your attackers when you are charged, using normal rules and profiles except no blast and templates do D3 hits.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:So are nemesis force halbards ap3?
Its says some weapons have their own stats. If not specified they are ap 3
It also says if it a sword or dagger its a force sword, axe or halberd is an axe and if its a mace or staff its a force staff
guess they will errata the GK codex to specific which it is
Well if they are consistent with that ruling (that's a big if lol) then Halberds being Power Axes is a pretty massive change, they would be AP2 but would drop you to I3 (I1 for Axe + 2) which gives them a meaningful downside.
What about power weapons classed as spears, I've heard it suggested that they are one of the 4 power weapon types but haven't heard what they are like compared to the others, can you explain what they are like?
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:So are nemesis force halbards ap3?
It also says if it a sword or dagger its a force sword, axe or halberd is an axe and if its a mace or staff its a force staff
guess they will errata the GK codex to specific which it is
Should bloody hope so. All the AP2 weapons seem to be the ones that lower your initiative - power fists, chainfists etc. It's logical that this is deliberate and will turn Terminator vs. Terminator fights into bloody slugfests.
The thought of +2 initiative AP2 weapons is obscene.
@rattman First off can you sum up the psychic powers for the new lore? And is there a power you can chose to take ala WFB with the 7powers as this means when my tyranids roll a warp charge 2 (which no one except swarmlord can use) won't waste their powers?
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:So are nemesis force halbards ap3?
Its says some weapons have their own stats. If not specified they are ap 3
It also says if it a sword or dagger its a force sword, axe or halberd is an axe and if its a mace or staff its a force staff
guess they will errata the GK codex to specific which it is
Well if they are consistent with that ruling (that's a big if lol) then Halberds being Power Axes is a pretty massive change, they would be AP2 but would drop you to I3 (I1 for Axe + 2) which gives them a meaningful downside.
Actually worse axes are "unwieldy" whick makes them I1
personally I think they will not change halberds, they will just gain Ap3 and +2 init as they will be classed as unlisted
Drunkspleen wrote:What about power weapons classed as spears, I've heard it suggested that they are one of the 4 power weapon types but haven't heard what they are like compared to the others, can you explain what they are like?
I heard +1 StrAP 3 on the charge, regular StrAP 4 afterwards.
A guy on BOLS claims that it is now only for shooting which I find slightly hard to believe as it goes against everything that has been said up to this point.
MoonlightSonata wrote:Could you clarify Preferred Enemy?
A guy on BOLS claims that it is now only for shooting which I find slightly hard to believe as it goes against everything that has been said up to this point.
I wouldn't use BOLS as a resource for understanding rules, they always struck me as woefully inadequate at it, posting up full articles about rules loopholes that don't actually exist etc.
oh all characters gain precision shot. on a roll of 6 (shooting or mellee) the character allocates the wound
ok so pyschic powers
biomancy
primary power is a basic smite
caster gets D3 str and toughness
target unit get -1 str and toughness
target unit get FNP assault 2 every unsaved would heals one off caster
pysker get +d3 init target makes toughness test or take 1 wound no save, if slain jumps to model with in 2' and make save. continue till someone saves or no targets left
divination
primary target unit rerolls failed hits
psycher and unit gain counter attack and get full BS for overwatch
target unit gain 4++
target unit must reroll passed armor saves
psycher and unit ignore cover
psyker rerolls failed failed hits, wounds and armor saves
psyker roll 3 dicechoose the result you want when rolling for reserves, outflank and mysterious terrain
pyromancy
primary flame breath (flamer)
psyker gains 4+ invo
target unit gains 4+ cover save
flame attack assault 1, sould blaze (no idea) blast, ignore cover
target model takes 1 wound , no armor or cover save allowed, place small blast template anyone hit takes a str 4 ap 5 hit
assault 2d6, blind, ignore cover attack
str 8, ap 1 assault 1, melta
telekenisis
assault 1 str 6 . strikedown (halves init and target moves as if its dangerous terrain)
roll 2d6 target takes hit equal to strength (11 or 12 auto wound) ap is equal to seperate dice roll
remove models from table, deepstrike within 24 inchs of where they were
hostile unit must reroll hits and wounds of 6
assault D6 pinning attack
all friendlies with 12 inchs get 5++
str 10, heavy 1 blast
telepathy
primary 3d6 - target leadership wounds to target unit
target unit has to make leadership roll or do nothing
target freindly stops falling back and gets fearless
hostile model makes an attack as if it owned by psyker
target hostile losses fearless and treats all units as fear causing
invisibility gains shrouding and stealth, hostiles charged by this unit lose counter attack and fight at WS 1
roll on table 1-2 unit pinned, 3-4 cannot run, shoot or stirke blows 5-6 attack own unit
MoonlightSonata wrote:Could you clarify Preferred Enemy?
A guy on BOLS claims that it is now only for shooting which I find slightly hard to believe as it goes against everything that has been said up to this point.
I wouldn't use BOLS as a resource for understanding rules, they always struck me as woefully inadequate at it, posting up full articles about rules loopholes that don't actually exist etc.
He seems to be somewhat incoherent and is spelling certain new rules incorrectly. All these conflicting reports from people who claim to have the book have left me with, what I can only describe as 'rumour fatigue'.
Does morale play a larger role in 6th ed? Is it still 25% shooting casualties? No Regrouping if below 50%? Rumours said you can always regroup if sergeant type model is still alive?
Are there any good mysterious terrain results? Care to list some interesting or funny ones?
Does the Heavy rule affect deepstrike in any way? Basically will a Monolith crash and burn on a 1 if I hit an enemy unit or does it work like a droppod where you stop 1" from enemy or Mawlok where you can dmg something you land on and they have to move?
Any change to Vehicle Squadron rule?
You mentioned abandoning immobilized vehicles, do you just remove it from the squadron like in 4E or is it destroyed like in 5E? The WD mentioned squadrons being more survivable, there any truth behind this?
Any change to Sniper weapons, what do they wound on now?
Do MC get any protection from ID or do GKs simply bone Nids like they do now?
rattman wrote:
biomancy
primary power is a basic smite
caster gets D3 str and toughness
target unit get -1 str and toughness
target unit get FNP assault 2 every unsaved would heals one off caster
pysker get +d3 init target makes toughness test or take 1 wound no save, if slain jumps to model with in 2' and make save. continue till someone saves or no targets left
hmmm D3+ s and t.....doom........T5 doom.....indestructible doom!!! ......if only this was always certain it would be brilliant. and all the overs seem quite ok actually.
oldone wrote:hmmm D3+ s and t.....doom........T5 doom.....indestructible doom!!! ......if only this was always certain it would be brilliant. and all the overs seem quite ok actually.
I hadn't even thought of the Doom. But imagine a Hive Tyrant barreling down on a unit with a potential Toughness and Strength of 9.
oldone wrote:hmmm D3+ s and t.....doom........T5 doom.....indestructible doom!!! ......if only this was always certain it would be brilliant. and all the overs seem quite ok actually.
I hadn't even thought of the Doom. But imagine a Hive Tyrant barreling down on a unit with a potential Toughness and Strength of 9.
You see this is another thing i would like checking (hint hint rattman =P ) can i use psychic shooting attacks as overwatch and snapfire as the hive tyrants psychic powers are psychic shooting attacks that automatically hit =D so if someone does mange to assault my hive tyrant they are going to be ws1 and bs1! i think this with wings will make hive tyrant worth their price tag.....maybe =P
oldone wrote:hmmm D3+ s and t.....doom........T5 doom.....indestructible doom!!! ......if only this was always certain it would be brilliant. and all the overs seem quite ok actually.
I hadn't even thought of the Doom. But imagine a Hive Tyrant barreling down on a unit with a potential Toughness and Strength of 9.
A Swarmlord can potentially be S9 T9 I9 with FNP to boot. Is there any mechanic to favour certain powers or re-roll if you get a bad one?
After reading all this i see that GW is still going on with their stupid mentality...; "Sooo vehicles where a tad too difficulte to pop for certain army's?...now they will be as though as papertoys!!!"
I am amongst the first people who found that full Mech army's could be annoying, but to make vehicles so weak against Glancing?...
The good idea would have been that they lose Hullpoints on Pen Hits, after all it is more frustrating to see actualy a vehicle survive a Pen hit, because you rolled a 1-2 on dmg chart, then on a Glancing hit...
Or even if you have no more Hull points you then becomes more vulnerable to Glancing hits, but directly wrecked?...Yeah..;dunno if GW staff has played a game recenlty against a recent army codex, but when your vehicles get shot at, they take like 4 shots per vehicles in mosts cases..., so yeah having LR and stuffs insta gibbed at turn one or 2 with only 4 Glancing is really dumb...
But on the other hand they make Flyers nearly unkillable?...
I think i will wait a little bit before assembling my new LR...
This 6th edition could have been really great if not for this, this replace the Wound allocation madness from 5th, i guess each Edition as is stupidly and poorly though out rule...
Oh well, i can throw out all my walkers to the trash bin...
oldone wrote:hmmm D3+ s and t.....doom........T5 doom.....indestructible doom!!! ......if only this was always certain it would be brilliant. and all the overs seem quite ok actually.
I hadn't even thought of the Doom. But imagine a Hive Tyrant barreling down on a unit with a potential Toughness and Strength of 9.
A Swarmlord can potentially be S9 T9 I9 with FNP to boot. Is there any mechanic to favour certain powers or re-roll if you get a bad one?
Well i imagine there will be a reroll for the same power, so the swarmlord will have 4 chance (one for each of his powers) to gain these psychic powers. i wondering if we have an actual chance against armies in 6th as psychic hood have changed now so SITW is a lot better as with perils getting better, i wondering if the deny the witch save can stop powers from only targeting that unit IE if my tervigon is 12" away from my genestealers and they are 6" away from my opponents space marines will i be able to use catalyst without being stop?
ShumaGorath wrote:This is totally wrong. It's possible to dodge gunfire at close range, because the angles involved mean that a smaller movement from you necessitates a larger movement from the gun tracking you. When Trinity said "Dodge this" in The Matrix, that was ironically one bullet that even a normal human could actually have dodged. Obviously, dodging after the shot is fired is impossible at close distances, but it's basically impossible at long distances too, and at close distances sudden movements may throw the attackers off.
You don't dodge things before they are existent. To dodge something it has to be corporeal and imminent. Also, no one dodges bullets, you have to be aware of something to dodge it as well. Avoiding something and dodging it aren't the same.
If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a bullet...
Slayer le boucher wrote:After reading all this i see that GW is still going on with their stupid mentality...; "Sooo vehicles where a tad too difficulte to pop for certain army's?...now they will be as though as papertoys!!!"
I am amongst the first people who found that full Mech army's could be annoying, but to make vehicles so weak against Glancing?...
The good idea would have been that they lose Hullpoints on Pen Hits, after all it is more frustrating to see actualy a vehicle survive a Pen hit, because you rolled a 1-2 on dmg chart, then on a Glancing hit...
Or even if you have no more Hull points you then becomes more vulnerable to Glancing hits, but directly wrecked?...Yeah..;dunno if GW staff has played a game recenlty against a recent army codex, but when your vehicles get shot at, they take like 4 shots per vehicles in mosts cases..., so yeah having LR and gak insta gibbed at turn one or 2 with only 4 Glancing is really dumb...
But on the other hand they make Flyers nearly unkillable?...
I think i will wait a little bit before assembling my new LR...
This 6th edition could have been really great if not for this, this replace the Wound allocation madness from 5th, i guess each Edition as is stupidly and poorly though out rule...
Oh well, i can throw out all my walkers to the trash bin...
I'll have them =P but the problem with vehicles i find wasn't that they where hard to beat, it was the number certain armies could field and it was the lack of anti-tank in some armies that made them such a good buy, so this is fixing a problem they made by making vehicles too cheap and not giving certain army books decent antitank.
rattman wrote:telepathy
primary 3d6 - target leadership wounds to target unit
target unit has to make leadership roll or do nothing
target freindly stops falling back and gets fearless
hostile model makes an attack as if it owned by psyker
target hostile losses fearless and treats all units as fear causing
invisibility gains shrouding and stealth, hostiles charged by this unit lose counter attack and fight at WS 1
roll on table 1-2 unit pinned, 3-4 cannot run, shoot or stirke blows 5-6 attack own unit
And suddenly, all my Broodlords want Invisibility.
Shrouding, Stealth, Lose counter attack and WS 1 against Genestealers? DIAMONDS¬
oldone wrote:hmmm D3+ s and t.....doom........T5 doom.....indestructible doom!!! ......if only this was always certain it would be brilliant. and all the overs seem quite ok actually.
I hadn't even thought of the Doom. But imagine a Hive Tyrant barreling down on a unit with a potential Toughness and Strength of 9.
You see this is another thing i would like checking (hint hint rattman =P ) can i use psychic shooting attacks as overwatch and snapfire as the hive tyrants psychic powers are psychic shooting attacks that automatically hit =D so if someone does mange to assault my hive tyrant they are going to be ws1 and bs1! i think this with wings will make hive tyrant worth their price tag.....maybe =P
I would hazard a guess to say yes as it's a psychic shooting attack, and even then it'd be the only thing you can shoot.
Wings alone have their cost refunded with the Vector strike. Auto hits from an MC on any unit is going to hurt. However you're going to be required (imho) to take at least 2-3 otherwise it's too easy to focus fire, even with the 6s needed to hit.
Edited because reading comprehension sucks at 3:30am.
xttz wrote:Is there any mechanic to favour certain powers or re-roll if you get a bad one?
There is a "default" power in each mastery, that you can opt to use instead of whatever you rolled up if you didn't like your roll, they are the first one in each of Rattman's lists, the ones labelled "primary".
rattman wrote:oh all characters gain precision shot. on a roll of 6 (shooting or mellee) the character allocates the wound
ok so pyschic powers
biomancy
primary power is a basic smite
caster gets D3 str and toughness
target unit get -1 str and toughness
target unit get FNP assault 2 every unsaved would heals one off caster
pysker get +d3 init target makes toughness test or take 1 wound no save, if slain jumps to model with in 2' and make save. continue till someone saves or no targets left
divination
primary target unit rerolls failed hits
psycher and unit gain counter attack and get full BS for overwatch
target unit gain 4++
target unit must reroll passed armor saves
psycher and unit ignore cover
psyker rerolls failed failed hits, wounds and armor saves
psyker roll 3 dicechoose the result you want when rolling for reserves, outflank and mysterious terrain
pyromancy
primary flame breath (flamer)
psyker gains 4+ invo
target unit gains 4+ cover save
flame attack assault 1, sould blaze (no idea) blast, ignore cover
target model takes 1 wound , no armor or cover save allowed, place small blast template anyone hit takes a str 4 ap 5 hit
assault 2d6, blind, ignore cover attack
str 8, ap 1 assault 1, melta
telekenisis
assault 1 str 6 . strikedown (halves init and target moves as if its dangerous terrain)
roll 2d6 target takes hit equal to strength (11 or 12 auto wound) ap is equal to seperate dice roll
remove models from table, deepstrike within 24 inchs of where they were
hostile unit must reroll hits and wounds of 6
assault D6 pinning attack
all friendlies with 12 inchs get 5++
str 10, heavy 1 blast
telepathy
primary 3d6 - target leadership wounds to target unit
target unit has to make leadership roll or do nothing
target freindly stops falling back and gets fearless
hostile model makes an attack as if it owned by psyker
target hostile losses fearless and treats all units as fear causing
invisibility gains shrouding and stealth, hostiles charged by this unit lose counter attack and fight at WS 1
roll on table 1-2 unit pinned, 3-4 cannot run, shoot or stirke blows 5-6 attack own unit
What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...
@rattman: Can you check if the Allies chart from the double tournament is indeed the valid one (esp how is the Tau/Grey Knight alliance)?
Is there still the difference between run and fleet, that fleet allows you to assault in the same round? Or is fleet just a better assault range?
Just like before necrons came out i have the rulebook early.
i have copy pasted this BUT i have the rulebook, so taking requests for tonight and ill post up anything you wanna know, below i can confirm as true and correct.
Core System
- Change to Pre-Measure like WHFB 8th Edition.
- Force Organization Chart is still in use, no use of Percentage
- Adding new FoC Slot called "Fortification" [0-1] / see below
- Phases remains the same, Movement, Shooting, and then Assault
- No Psychic Phase
- No Initiative Phase
Movement Phase
- Movement is pretty much the same. Infantry can move 6", Jump Infantry 12" and so on.
Shooting Phase
- Rapid Fire weapons can now fire at target 24" away irregardless of moving or not. (or choose to fire twice at target 12" away)
- Pistol is pretty much the same.
- New Weapon type "Salvo" - firing at max. range & max. shots if not move, or 1/2 range and 1/2 shots if moving.
- Heavy Weapon can now be fired on the move, but will be subjected to 'snap fire' rule.
- "Snap Fire" allows certain weapon types to shoot even if moving, but with a BS of 1 (ie. 6 to hit)
- Blast Weapons cannot "snap fire"
- You can only killed as much models in target unit as you can actually see (and within max range).
- Casualties are now removed from closest to furthest.
- Wound Allocation is completely changed.
- When shooting at unit partially in cover, player can choose to "Focus Fire" to kill only models in the open (or in a less covered position).
- You can now throw (most) grenades in the Shooting Phase at the range of 8", limited to 1 grenade per unit per Phase.
Assault Phase
- Charge Distance is now 2D6" adding together.
- Unit can elect to "Overwatch" if being assaulted. Simply a "Stand and Shoot 40K version" - resolved at BS1, Template does D3 hit instead.
- Overwatch can be done only once per turn.
- Unit declaring multiple assaults will suffer from "Disoriented Charge" (not get +1A)
- Unit assaulting multiple enemy unit is subjected to multiple Overwatch.
- Unlike Stand & Shoot, Overwatch does NOT cause Morale Check or Pinning.
- Pile-in reduced to 3" and is done at the model's Initiative Step (ie. before the model could strike)
- Casualties are removed from the front rank, like the case of Shooting Phase
- Units can elect to auto-fail Morale Check at the end of Combat if all models in the unit cannot hurt the attacker at all (ie. S3 vs T10).
- Challenges are in for IC.
- Close-Combat Weapon now have AP value, ranging from AP- to AP1. Pistols don't grant more bonus than in 5th Edition.
- Power SWORD and Lightning Claws are "S: as user" AP3, though Power AXE is S+1, AP2, but is subjected to penalties (Initiative Reduced)
- Fists and Chainfists are Sx2 AP2 and Unwieldy (Intiative reduced to 1), Thunder Hammers has "Concussive" (the exact (or almost) same rules as in 5th Edition)
Vehicles
- Vehicles are now limited to move at the maximum of 12" in the Movement Phase (though it can move further in the Shooting Phase if desired)
- Vehicles can opt to move "Flat Out" in the Shooting Phase, adding an extra 6".
- Vehicles movement and weapons. Defensive and Primary Weapons are gone. You can fire all of your weapons at most of the time. But moving faster will result in less weapon fired at basic BS, the rest will be fired at BS1 (Snap Fire)
- Fast Skimmer moving Flat Out can be more lethal (fire more weapons than in 5th and moving faster [12" Normal + 18" Flat Out])
- Skimmer got a cover save called Jink, basically 5+ cover save and improved to 4+ if going Flat Out.
- Vehicles count as WS0 (auto-hit) if stationary and WS1 (3+ hit) if moved. No idea on how Fast or Skimmer will have bonus, as cover aren't used in Assault.
- Flyers are now in, with its own rules.
- Flyers can move very fast and is hard to target (6 only to hit) unless the shooter has Skystrike rules that allow them to shoot flyer at normal BS.
- When moving fast (called "Zooming") Flyers cannot move less than 12" and cannot disembark any models.
Vehicle and Damage
- New Vehicle Damage Chart, one to rule them all. 1-2 being Shaken, 3 Stunned, 4 and 5 Weapon Destroyed and Immobilised, and 6 Explodes! You only roll the table if the shot penetrate the Armour. Wrecks occur only from taking certain amount of Glancing Hits.
- AP 2 weapons add +1 to the chart, while AP1 adds +2.
- AP"-" is no longer -1 on the table.
- Open-Topped is +1 as well.
- No more "Half Strength if the center hole is off", you always use full strength for any blast that hits the vehicle.
- Hull Points - a new style "wound" for vehicles. Any Glancing Hits removes 1 Hull Point, Penetrate Hit removes 1 Hull Point as well as rolling on the Damage Chart above. If reduced to 0 HP, the vehicle becomes Wreck.
- Vehicles has 3 or 4 HP, notable 4 HP vehicles are Ghost Ark, Land Raider, and Monolith. Details can be found in the rulebook appendix. (Bloodwing stated that some player propose that the formula for Hull Points is Front + Side(once) + Rear divide by 3. Fractions rounding down - this seems to be true.
Vehicle and Passenger
- Passenger can only disembark if vehicle move 0-6".
- Disembarking rules changes, you now place models in base contact with the access point and move up to 6" - this is the furthest distance the unit may move.
- Embarking is pretty much the same.
- Unit count as moving if the vehicle moved 0.1-6", and can only "Snap Fire" if the vehicle move 6.01 - 12"
- Open-topped transport rules are the same (access points and fire points)
- Exploding Flyer that has "zoomed" will result in a S10 no armour save on its passenger. And some sort of S6 Large Blast at any unit under the point the vehicle goes on flame.
Psychic Power
- NO PSYCHIC PHASE (or whatever people are assuming they are)
- Perils of the Warp causes one wound, no saves of any kind allowed.
- Types of psychic power, witchfire (psychic shooting attack), focused witchfire (has a chance to allow player to choose the target model when removing casualty by rolling low scores on Psychic Test), nova (affects all enemy units within range), maelstrom (affecting both friendly and enemy within range), blessing (augmented friend), and malediction (de-buff enemy).
- "Deny the Witch" - every models/units have a slight chance to nullify the effect of psychic power (6+). Chances increase if your unit has Psyker.
- Psychic Hood is reduced to 4+ Deny the Witch if the target of the power is within 6" of the wearer.
- There are 5 new Disciplines of Psychic Powers in the BRB, each has 7 Powers. Each army can access different Disciplines, some cannot use them at all.
- Casting Psychic Power remains the same as in 5th.
- Psychic Powers now have 2 level, calling Warp Charge 1 and 2. Mastery Level 1 can only use Warp Charge 1 power, while Mastery Level 2 allows you to cast 2 "Warp Charge 1" power or 1 "Warp Charge 2". Higher Mastery allows for more.
- Each Psyker generate Warp Charge equal to his Mastery Level.
Characters
- Look Out, Sir! is in. Grants character 50% chance to evade the attack if he's within 6" of friendly unit (works in combat too), resolved each successful Look Out Sir on the models within 6" instead.
- Look Out Sir! is improved to 2+ for Independent Character.
- Character can issue / accept challenges.
- One model in your army will be the Warlord (one with highest LD), Warlord can roll on a table (there's 3 table, you can choose 1) to see what benefit he receive. Examples are units within 12" can use his LD, the Character count as Scoring Units, Warlord has FNP if within 3" of Objective.
Tidbits
- Fortification - a new addition to the FoC, limited to 0-1 this allows player to purchase some kind of terrain for their army. Expensive one are Fortress of Redemption (220 points) and cheap ones are Aegis Defence Lines (50 points)
- Allies - a new system that allows player to have a detachment made of another army in the list. Allies works like WFB8th Edition with best buddies, normal allies, and untrusted. The detachment is limited to 1HQ and 1 Troop(compulsory) and additional 1 Troop, 1 Elite, 1 Fast Attack, and 1 Heavy Support.
Missions
- There are 3 Deployment Types, one being the classic Pitched Battle, second one is reversed Pitched Battle (deploying along the short table edges), and third one is a triangular deployment.
- Selecting deployment zone remains the same, roll-off to see who deploys first and go first.
- Seize Initiative is still the same.
- 6 Missions with 2 Level Objectives. Primary Objectives grants more Victory Points, but harder to achieve. Secondary Objective is always 1 VP and has 3 of them. First Blood (for getting the first "kill point", Slay the Warlord (for killing the enemy Warlord - aka. general), and Linebreaker (having your units in enemy deployment zone at the end of the game)
- Deep Strike Mishap is softened now: 1 - You're Dead, 2-3 Misplaced, and 4-6 Delayed.
- Feel No Pain dropped to 5+
- There's still only 1 Level of Instant Death, no Instant Death(x)
- Fleet allows for re-rolls on Run and possibly Assault distances.
- "Hammer of Wrath" allows model to make single attack at their base strength before combat on the turn it assault. Jump Infantry and Bike have it.
- Monstrous Creature can make "Smash" attack, forfeit half of its attack to resolve attack at Sx2 against vehicle.
- Flying Monstrous Creature can make two mode of movement. One being 24" move, performing D3+1 "Vector Strike" on a single unit within the path and then shoot up to two weapons or run 2D6" in the shooting phase. However, it cannot assault or being assaulted unless it get shot and fall down from the sky first (can't remember how you fire at it, 6 only?) Should it fall from the sky, it will take S9 hit and can now be assaulted as normal.
- Sniper has rule to allow them to allocate wounds to the model of your choice if you roll a 6 when rolling to hit.
- Rage is now +2 Attack on assault.
- Many new generalization of rules...such as Armourbane (roll 2d6 for armour penetration) and Fleshbane (2+ to wound)....this also expands to weapons as well (unwieldy, concussive, etc.)
Joey wrote:What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...
It's right there in the lists you quoted under divination, it also gives counter attack (which makes no sense whatsoever, either you charge headlong into the attacking unit, or you stand and shoot, both is just silly)
Kroothawk wrote:@rattman: Can you check if the Allies chart from the double tournament is indeed the valid one (esp how is the Tau/Grey Knight alliance)?
Is there still the difference between run and fleet, that fleet allows you to assault in the same round? Or is fleet just a better assault range?
I had a quick comparison and its basically correct, main thing is Gk dont have a brotherhood with anyone, that could have caused some massive over powerness
fleet reroll 1 dice for when determining run or charge range.
Dearest rattman, a few questions if you would be so kind;
1. Do the rules address Boneswords? Do they have their own entry? Are they lumped in with force weapons? Or do they defer to the Tyranid codex?
2. Can you confirm or deny that Fearless models no longer take extra wounds in lost combats?
3. Can you clarify the list of Monstrous Creature abilities? Some people refer to the Smash rule (halve attacks for double strength, but other people refer to a Stomp rule; does it exist? Some people have also referred to a rule that allows Monstrous Creatures to hit numerous models in base to base; does it exist?
4. Are Daemons the only army to receive the new Fear rule (I believe it might be known as "Terrify)?
Joey wrote:What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...
Second divination power.
Drunkspleen wrote:
Joey wrote:What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...
It's right there in the lists you quoted under divination, it also gives counter attack (which makes no sense whatsoever, either you charge headlong into the attacking unit, or you stand and shoot, both is just silly)
Unless it's run and shoot. A countercharge using your primary guns as you go in isn't that outlandish.
Joey wrote:What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...
It's right there in the lists you quoted under divination, it also gives counter attack (which makes no sense whatsoever, either you charge headlong into the attacking unit, or you stand and shoot, both is just silly)
Unless it's run and shoot. A countercharge using your primary guns as you go in isn't that outlandish.
Then why doesn't the assaulting unit get to fire their guns as they go in?
Altruizine wrote:Dearest rattman, a few questions if you would be so kind;
1. Do the rules address Boneswords? Do they have their own entry? Are they lumped in with force weapons? Or do they defer to the Tyranid codex?
Boneswords are not listed master weapon chart, guess they use the rules the nid codex and get ap3
2. Can you confirm or deny that Fearless models no longer take extra wounds in lost combats?
doesn't mention extra wounds in the USR now, so think not
3. Can you clarify the list of Monstrous Creature abilities? Some people refer to the Smash rule (halve attacks for double strength, but other people refer to a Stomp rule; does it exist? Some people have also referred to a rule that allows Monstrous Creatures to hit numerous models in base to base; does it exist?
MC gain fear, hammer of wrath (free i10, str self ap - attack), move through cover, relentless and smash (all attacks ap2, can halve attacks to goto str 10 and reroll armor pen special rules
4. Are Daemons the only army to receive the new Fear rule (I believe it might be known as "Terrify)?
nope see above, fear is still in there
Joey wrote:What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...
It's right there in the lists you quoted under divination, it also gives counter attack (which makes no sense whatsoever, either you charge headlong into the attacking unit, or you stand and shoot, both is just silly)
Unless it's run and shoot. A countercharge using your primary guns as you go in isn't that outlandish.
Then why doesn't the assaulting unit get to fire their guns as they go in?
According to GW that's represented by the +1 attack.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rattman wrote:
Altruizine wrote:Dearest rattman, a few questions if you would be so kind;
1. Do the rules address Boneswords? Do they have their own entry? Are they lumped in with force weapons? Or do they defer to the Tyranid codex?
Boneswords are not listed master weapon chart, guess they use the rules the nid codex and get ap3
2. Can you confirm or deny that Fearless models no longer take extra wounds in lost combats?
doesn't mention extra wounds in the USR now, so think not
3. Can you clarify the list of Monstrous Creature abilities? Some people refer to the Smash rule (halve attacks for double strength, but other people refer to a Stomp rule; does it exist? Some people have also referred to a rule that allows Monstrous Creatures to hit numerous models in base to base; does it exist?
MC gain fear, hammer of wrath, move through cover, relentless and smash special rules
4. Are Daemons the only army to receive the new Fear rule (I believe it might be known as "Terrify)?
nope see above, fear is still in there
About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.
Joey wrote:What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...
It's right there in the lists you quoted under divination, it also gives counter attack (which makes no sense whatsoever, either you charge headlong into the attacking unit, or you stand and shoot, both is just silly)
rattman wrote:2. Can you confirm or deny that Fearless models no longer take extra wounds in lost combats?
doesn't mention extra wounds in the USR now, so think not
It wasn't under the USR before either, it was under the Morale rules before.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Marrak wrote:
Drunkspleen wrote:
His Master's Voice wrote:
Drunkspleen wrote:
Joey wrote:What about the much quoted power that lets you stand and shoot at normal BS? Blob guard could really do with that...
It's right there in the lists you quoted under divination, it also gives counter attack (which makes no sense whatsoever, either you charge headlong into the attacking unit, or you stand and shoot, both is just silly)
Unless it's run and shoot. A countercharge using your primary guns as you go in isn't that outlandish.
Then why doesn't the assaulting unit get to fire their guns as they go in?
According to GW that's represented by the +1 attack.
Cool, so why doesn't counter attack mean the defenders shooting is represented by their +1 attack, there's no way you can justify defenders with counter-attack getting to make overwatch shots when attackers don't.
Altruizine wrote:Dearest rattman, a few questions if you would be so kind;
1. Do the rules address Boneswords? Do they have their own entry? Are they lumped in with force weapons? Or do they defer to the Tyranid codex?
Boneswords are not listed master weapon chart, guess they use the rules the nid codex and get ap3
2. Can you confirm or deny that Fearless models no longer take extra wounds in lost combats?
doesn't mention extra wounds in the USR now, so think not
3. Can you clarify the list of Monstrous Creature abilities? Some people refer to the Smash rule (halve attacks for double strength, but other people refer to a Stomp rule; does it exist? Some people have also referred to a rule that allows Monstrous Creatures to hit numerous models in base to base; does it exist?
MC gain fear, hammer of wrath, move through cover, relentless and smash special rules
4. Are Daemons the only army to receive the new Fear rule (I believe it might be known as "Terrify)?
nope see above, fear is still in there
Thank you!
I'm disappointed about Boneswords, but I suppose the FAQ could still state something like "Boneswords are not standard force weapons, and use the rules printed in Codex Tyranids".
On the other hand, I am very happy about MCs getting Fear. So, as it currently stands is is just "all daemons" and "all MCs" who get Fear?
Marrak wrote:
About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.
Then don't. 99% of the posts about GW breaking the game with 6th are by people who are flat out wrong about a lot of the new rules, like the guy who posted a list that would "break" the game and added in about 8 extra FOC that shouldn't have been there
-- Do units have to take an Overwatch shot against the first unit that charges them, or can they elect to "save" it for a more threatening unit they think will charge later in the phase?
Marrak wrote:
About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.
Then don't. 99% of the posts about GW breaking the game with 6th are by people who are flat out wrong about a lot of the new rules, like the guy who posted a list that would "break" the game and added in about 8 extra FOC that shouldn't have been there
well, specifically, I don't want to be "TFG" at my local store. But if the swords aren't listed I'd make a decent argument.
Is there any other codex specific weapon that follows the same wording, but was included in the master list... I wonder...
Marrak wrote:About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.
Rules in a codex always take precedence over the main rulebook. If the codex says 'ignores all armour' then you don't get armour saves unless a FAQ is issued for that codex.
Countdown to Boneswords being FAQ'd AP3 while Warscythes get FAQ'd as AP2...
rattman wrote:assuming bone swords are force/power weapon
They're not (in case anyone else asks).
edit: rattman Do 'Hammer of Wrath' attacks automatically hit, or do they need to roll against WS?
About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.
theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"
xttz wrote:
Rules in a codex always take precedence over the main rulebook. If the codex says 'ignores all armour' then you don't get armour saves unless a FAQ is issued for that codex.
Countdown to Boneswords being FAQ'd AP3 while Warscythes get FAQ'd as AP2...
That's completely untrue. If the rulebook says that weapons that say they ignore armor save count as being AP3, then that would be the rule.
Codexes typically supersede rulebook rules because they are more specific, but when the rulebook is written to clearly supersede codex wording then it does.
So while you may be right, it all depends on how the rulebook is worded, and naturally GW's FAQs will likely cover a lot of this stuff too.
About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.
theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"
Well, that basically puts that argument to rest for me. I know folks will argue it, but frankly the intention seems clear.
Shame... I love the idea with warriors with swords, but they were primarily there to take care of terminators. They'd still destroy power armor, but now I'm not sure I can justify the expenditure to myself. Especially when fielding 5 warriors with them is basically another brood of something else.
There's nothing in the codex that defines them as force weapons, so it will be up to the FAQ to make or break them.
rattman, could you check the overwatch thing?
And possibly peruse the Morale section to see if the Fearless / No Retreat rule is hiding in there? I suppose you could look at the index for "No Retreat" and if it's not in there we're safe.
About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.
theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"
Boneswords aren't force weapons either as its not the bearer that takes a test but the wounded (if that makes sense). =)
Oh and rattman can psychic shooting attacks be used as overwatch?
and for that matter what are the rules for beast and terrain? some where we where told that they ignore terrain altogether if so does it state what happens when assaulting in to cover?
rattman, can you check what fast Vehicles can do ?
Rumors : moving Flat Out can be more lethal (fire more weapons than in 5th and moving faster [12" Normal + 18" Flat Out])
So can they move 12" and fire 2 weapons with normal BS? andwhat happens when they flat out?
About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.
theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"
Well, that basically puts that argument to rest for me. I know folks will argue it, but frankly the intention seems clear.
Boneswords aren't force weapons or power weapons, so that rule doesn't apply. Until it's FAQ'd they (and Warscythes) still ignore armour. I'm actually inclined to believe that this is intentional as the Necron codex was written with 6th in mind and Warscythes are specifically phrased the same way (without mentioning power weapons).
About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.
theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"
Boneswords aren't force weapons either as its not the bearer that takes a test but the wounded (if that makes sense). =)
Oh and rattman can psychic shooting attacks be used as overwatch?
and for that matter what are the rules for beast and terrain? some where we where told that they ignore terrain altogether if so does it state what happens when assaulting in to cover?
if that's the case, Raveners are suddenly not terrible.
I wonder if the snakes have learned how to climb stairs yet. any word if beasts can go to higher levels in a ruin? For that matter, are different levels in a ruin still always 3 inches to move up or down?
wolverineD wrote:rattman, can you check what fast Vehicles can do ?
Rumors : moving Flat Out can be more lethal (fire more weapons than in 5th and moving faster [12" Normal + 18" Flat Out])
So can they move 12" and fire 2 weapons with normal BS? andwhat happens when they flat out?
doesn't have to overwatch the first unit to charge it to who ever asked that, basically declare charge, declare overwatch, roll charge range, move. but because you can't shoot while in combat if the first unit makes it into combat you wont be able to shoot at subsequent chargers
hammer of wrath = its one automatic hit at i10
preffered enamy = shooting and melle
fast vehicle move up to 12 flat out
combat speed - all weapons
cruise - 2 weapons at full bs and rest are snap fire (bs1)
ShumaGorath wrote:But now you're looking into the future of the games meta and using untested lists from a ruleset that isn't out to prove your points. That doesn't seem very honest to me.
I'm not sure why you went to lengths to discuss the advantages of MSU. I would understand if I at some point would have said the future is about large squads at objectives or something to that direction, but I didn't. All I said was that the metagame is shifting and that Razorspam is dead, and explained all the reasons why I think so. That's one particular army type -- The most popular one in the tournament circuit that I might add. That doesn't mean MSU is dead. Far from it. About the lists I mentioned, I said to go to the army lists forum to check them out and absolutely none of them are illegal so I don't know what lists you've been looking at. They're also all Necron lists. Not that it makes any difference but when the first line of your post is both incorrect and hostile it sets a bad tone for your entire response.
As far as being called dishonest, considering how much counter arguing I'm getting to my views, I'll call myself a visionary.
About boneswords... if it's not in the master list, why does it get AP3? Current wording says it ignores armor... now I know this is playing with wording a bit, but if it's not listed I'm not inclined to self-nerf my codex.
theres a line in force/power weapon section (assuming bone swords are force/power weapon) "if a force/power weapon has it own unqiue rules then ap3 weapon with extra rules as presented in the codex"
Boneswords aren't force weapons either as its not the bearer that takes a test but the wounded (if that makes sense). =)
Oh and rattman can psychic shooting attacks be used as overwatch?
and for that matter what are the rules for beast and terrain? some where we where told that they ignore terrain altogether if so does it state what happens when assaulting in to cover?
if that's the case, Raveners are suddenly not terrible.
I wonder if the snakes have learned how to climb stairs yet. any word if beasts can go to higher levels in a ruin? For that matter, are different levels in a ruin still always 3 inches to move up or down?
This is what I'm hoping is true as it will make them a decent choice to deepstrike into terrian (ignoring dangerous terrian because of move through cover) and then tieing up units in C&C so that the over units can land without being shoot to death. i thinking parasite of mortex (sp?) just got a lot better as he can now kill who he wants (see one a 6 IC can target who they like)
ShumaGorath wrote:But now you're looking into the future of the games meta and using untested lists from a ruleset that isn't out to prove your points. That doesn't seem very honest to me.
I'm not sure why you went to lengths to discuss the advantages of MSU. I would understand if I at some point would have said the future is about large squads at objectives or something to that direction, but I didn't. All I said was that the metagame is shifting and that Razorspam is dead, and explained all the reasons why I think so. That's one particular army type, the most popular one in the tournament circuit that I might add. That doesn't mean MSU is dead. Far from it. About the lists I mentioned, I said to go to the army lists forum to check them out and absolutely none of them are illegal so I don't know what lists you've been looking at. They're also all Necron lists.
As far as being called dishonest, considering how much counter arguing I'm getting to my views, I'll call myself a visionary.
I'm sure people would appreciate it if you guys could exercise some restraint and cool the debate for as long as we have rattman here answering our queries.
Could you clarify if ordnance has changed at all in light of Snapshot? if you shoot ordnance are you still unable to shoot anythign else? this coudl have a major effect on the Monolith as well (if ordnance stays the same my monoliths will be played as necron bastions from now on)
Also, could you clarify how Beasts/Cavalry work in the new rulebook?
and for that matter what are the rules for beast and terrain? some where we where told that they ignore terrain altogether if so does it state what happens when assaulting in to cover?
beasts get fleet and move through cover, doesn't specify what happens assuming you were wanting to know about the initive penalty for assaulting in cover
Could you clarify if ordnance has changed at all in light of Snapshot? if you shoot ordnance are you still unable to shoot anythign else? this coudl have a major effect on the Monolith as well (if ordnance stays the same my monoliths will be played as necron bastions from now on)
Also, could you clarify how Beasts/Cavalry work in the new rulebook?
you rock btw.
+1 on Rattman rocking, but not sure what you're asking here. Are you asking if Ordinance can't be used for Snapshot, or if you've shot Ordinance it prevents you from utilizing snapshot?
rattman wrote:
and for that matter what are the rules for beast and terrain? some where we where told that they ignore terrain altogether if so does it state what happens when assaulting in to cover?
beasts get fleet and move through cover, doesn't specify what happens assuming you were wanting to know about the initive penalty for assaulting in cover
Edited to reply to rattman's post.
Yes, although I believe it was stated earlier that beasts ignore cover, and therefore can assault with impunity through cover without the Initiative penalty. My question built on that, wondering how beasts now interact with multi-level terrain. Are they still stuck on the ground floor, or can they now climb? Also are multiple levels still considered to be 3 inches apart with regards to movement between them?
Altruizine wrote:I'm sure people would appreciate it if you guys could exercise some restraint and cool the debate for as long as we have rattman here answering our queries.
I'm sorry. I took a twelve hour break and posted a short and to the point response to Shuma's writings to close the debate, but I'll just go away and hide in a corner with my head hanging in shame because it interfered with all the 'DESTROYERS HERE I COME' posts.
its getting close to bed time for me so only a few more answers
Praxiss wrote:@Rattman
Could you clarify if ordnance has changed at all in light of Snapshot? if you shoot ordnance are you still unable to shoot anythign else? this coudl have a major effect on the Monolith as well (if ordnance stays the same my monoliths will be played as necron bastions from now on)
Also, could you clarify how Beasts/Cavalry work in the new rulebook?
you rock btw.
you can move and shoot ordanance, but if you fire ordanance and other attacks are snap shots only (BS1)
beast and CAV no idea haven't read that bit yet
cav
Altruizine wrote:I'm sure people would appreciate it if you guys could exercise some restraint and cool the debate for as long as we have rattman here answering our queries.
I'm sorry. I took a twelve hour break and posted a short and to the point response to Shuma's writings to close the debate, but I'll just go away and hide in a corner with my head hanging in shame because it interfered with all the 'DESTROYERS HERE I COME' posts.
There's no need for the melodramatics, he was polite in his request to you, which doesn't seem entirely unreasonable, so long as we are getting questions answered it's best for all involved to focus on the questions and answers.
the Monolith can move and fire everything anyway (the Heavy rule meaning it always counts as being stationary for the purposes of shooting). but under 5th ed rules, it coudl not fire the Flux arc AND the Whip, as the whip is ordnance.
So, in 6th ed. Can you fire any other weapons if you have already fired an ordnance shot? if you can then thsi also open the door to firign the Whip, Arc AND using the portal of Exile as that also counts as a shootign attack.
Altruizine wrote:I'm sure people would appreciate it if you guys could exercise some restraint and cool the debate for as long as we have rattman here answering our queries.
I'm sorry. I took a twelve hour break and posted a short and to the point response to Shuma's writings to close the debate, but I'll just go away and hide in a corner with my head hanging in shame because it interfered with all the 'DESTROYERS HERE I COME' posts.
Debates on the internet are last word contests, don't pretend otherwise!
Don't want this getting re-locked now just as it's finding some usefulness again.
Does morale play a larger role in 6th ed? Is it still 25% shooting casualties? No Regrouping if below 50%? Rumours said you can always regroup if sergeant type model is still alive?
Are there any good mysterious terrain results? Care to list some interesting or funny ones?
Does the Heavy rule affect deepstrike in any way? Basically will a Monolith crash and burn on a 1 if I hit an enemy unit or does it work like a droppod where you stop 1" from enemy or Mawlok where you can dmg something you land on and they have to move?
Any change to Vehicle Squadron rule?
Any change to Sniper weapons
One guy said PrefE was for shooting only and Hatred was for melee only. As you clarified PE, what does Hatred do?
Joey wrote:Hoping beyond hope that Leman Russes get the Heavy USR. Sponsons might actually be worthwhile
Doesn't the Lumbering Behemoth rule do pretty much the same thing already? (sincere question, i've never had a proper look through the IG codex)
It lets you fire what you could normally fire, plus the turret weapon. So if you stay still you can shoot them all, but if you move you can shoot the turret plus one. So if my Russ had lascannons and MM sponsons, and I moved, I could shoot the main cannon plus a lasscannon or one of the MMs.
So it lets you a)shoot weapons with ordinance and b)shoot two weapons on the move.
Maige wrote:So under these CCW rules, the only Dark Eldar weapons that can scratch a TEQ in CC would be the duel blades of Lilith and Sliscus (on 5+).
Not even a Huskblade......Not even Drazhar.....Not even Vect.
Yeah, I mad.
I'm not going to leap to conclusions, but assuming that is the case I'll be right there with you, really not looking forward to my Dark Eldar playing like Tau in flimsier transports.
Joey wrote:
You mean you can't go into close combat with human tanks and blow them over? That must suck
Majorly. I know you're having a wind-up/troll, but the fluff argument doesn't make any sense. The Dark Eldar are supposed to be master tormentors, using sophisticated eldritch weaponry to inflict agony unrivalled. We have our standard 'Power Weapon' but we also have Blades which incinerate everything they touch leaving a trail of husky corpses behind. We have whips which fry your nervous system on contact. We have Blades which harness the power of trapped souls and giant two-handed power machetes.
Yet the only thing cracking a termie's armour is a pair of Mary Sue's daggers and a lucky venom hit from some swashbuckling meth addict?
..........I do love me some Sliscus though.
xttz wrote:
Harlequins can at least have Rending. Personally I'd just stock up on Void Ravens and blasters instead.
Kind of a 'let them eat cake' moment. Sure Dark Eldar can still shoot alright; no better than they used to, arguably worse. That's no consolation whatsoever.
It's like "Well we cut out your right eye for no particular reason, but you still have your left one".
I told myself I wasn't gonna get butthurt over 6th, I could handle it when they cut disembark distance, but taking away the ability to dent TEQs in CC has surely rustled my jimmies.
Maige wrote:So under these CCW rules, the only Dark Eldar weapons that can scratch a TEQ in CC would be the duel blades of Lilith and Sliscus (on 5+).
Not even a Huskblade......Not even Drazhar.....Not even Vect.
Yeah, I mad.
I'm not going to leap to conclusions, but assuming that is the case I'll be right there with you, really not looking forward to my Dark Eldar playing like Tau in flimsier transports.
I may have fallen behind a little bit... Outside of the current discussion about DE being boned for power weapon selections, has anyone else talked about how much they want to kick the developers for changing the stats on PWs? An axe is different from a maul is different from a sword? Seriously? So now my CSM termies, who I just assembled with bits from the box, have mauls and axes and no swords, and have silly, seemingly random attributes? Bleh...
Are Fast, open-topped Transports still the exception to the 6" disembark rule?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 7 hours ago
nope
Automatically Appended Next Post: On Force Weapons:
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 7 hours ago
force weapons follow the same model as power weapons, all ones with their own rules are AP3. i guess one of you plays GK.
tetrisphreak wrote:Are Fast, open-topped Transports still the exception to the 6" disembark rule?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 7 hours ago
nope
Automatically Appended Next Post: On Force Weapons:
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 7 hours ago
force weapons follow the same model as power weapons, all ones with their own rules are AP3. i guess one of you plays GK.
Men, fast (open-topped) skimmers should be handled differently here. MEQ armies will be favored once again.
There's been a lot of discussion back and forth about the term "generate" when determining powers from the new psychic disciplines, especially given "Warp Charge" level. Are powers rolled randomly? Is this consistent across all races?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 8 hours ago
generating is just like getting fantasy spells (except you reroll a double dont choose.) warp charge is how many spells you can cast, some have warp charge 2 and take up 2 spells worth of casting.
Didn't specify in the thread. I imagine it's still to-wound.
Edit - re-read the post. now i'm not sure. Maybe 6-to hit is an auto wound. The reason i have confusion is right now a rending 6 counts as an auto-wound.
I'm boggling at the Power Axe thing, honestly. Only MeQ armies have the actual bit, and even then not all of them.
I also see almost no reason why you wouldn't go for a Power Fist instead, as it gives you beter Strength at the same initiative. It's not even clear yet if the axe lets you keep the extra attack from 2 ccws. It better be -amazingly- cheap, point-wise.
Is he online now?
I haven't got time to make a Reddit account, can someone please ask for a CLEAR AND CONCISE account on the CCW classifications? Call me out if there already is one somewhere but I'm not satisfied with what I've seen so far.
Sephyr wrote:I'm boggling at the Power Axe thing, honestly. Only MeQ armies have the actual bit, and even then not all of them.
I also see almost no reason why you wouldn't go for a Power Fist instead, as it gives you beter Strength at the same initiative. It's not even clear yet if the axe lets you keep the extra attack from 2 ccws. It better be -amazingly- cheap, point-wise.
Power weapon - +15 points
Power Fist - +25 points
that's why you'd choose the weapon over the fist - saving points.
Sephyr wrote:I'm boggling at the Power Axe thing, honestly. Only MeQ armies have the actual bit, and even then not all of them.
I also see almost no reason why you wouldn't go for a Power Fist instead, as it gives you beter Strength at the same initiative. It's not even clear yet if the axe lets you keep the extra attack from 2 ccws. It better be -amazingly- cheap, point-wise.
Power Fists still strike at I1, have you even been following the thread? I'm also pretty sure Power Axes are a negative to initiative.
This may have been answered somewhere, but do you get to choose which discipline/your codex powers after you have rolled, or before?
i.e. do you choose, roll, then you're stuck with what you got, or roll, then choose from the corresponding disciplines or if you're not happy just stick with chosen ones?
Maige wrote:Is he online now?
I haven't got time to make a Reddit account, can someone please ask for a CLEAR AND CONCISE account on the CCW classifications? Call me out if there already is one somewhere but I'm not satisfied with what I've seen so far.
I'm just scouring the thread for good bits of info. These responses are 8 hours old so he is probably not still online.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Any word on if units with Move Through Cover ignore difficult/dangerous terrain when charging?
That would be a nice little boon for my poor Tyranids.
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 8 hours ago
you roll an extra D6 for movement purposes and ignore dangerous terrain. sorry if i said this wrong earlier its been alot of questions. dosnt affect charges.
So wait... what about jetpack troops assaulting out of vehicals. If I'm reading what you've put below correctly, a Stormraven can go into hover mode, then move 6 inches, then jump pack troops (eg sanguinary guard) move 12 inches out, then assault 2d6 rerollable, for a maximum of 30" threat range? I love it...
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 8 hours ago
no you always get 6 out of a vehicle regardless of your movment.
Maige wrote:Is he online now? I haven't got time to make a Reddit account, can someone please ask for a CLEAR AND CONCISE account on the CCW classifications? Call me out if there already is one somewhere but I'm not satisfied with what I've seen so far.
god.ra wrote:can you please ask him for squadrons, Immobilased = wreck ? Can he clarify the rapid fire + relentless
He already answered both of those. You can read the thread without making an account there.
He listed the weapons multiple times, and said he doesn't know codex specifics, like the big choppa or eviscerator. Those are probably found in the FAQ.
Vehicle squadrons stay the same, except allocation being closest to furthest. Relentless+Rapid fire only allows you to charge after shooting, no further benefits.
1) Do monstrous creatures get impact hits? How does this mechanic work?
2) Do you always require 6s to hit flyers or only if they move over a certain distance?
3) MCs executing a smash attack still cap out at str10, correct?
4) I know a lot of people have brought up would allocation but how does it work? Do you distribute them the same starting with the nearest target and working your way back to the furthest? Or do you keep rolling saves for the first guy til he dies and then the next closest model begins taking wounds?
5) Any changes to disembarking from vehicles? How about for being fast or open topped? Any changes with firing from the firing ports?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 4 points 8 hours ago
they get hammer of wrath
always need 6 as long as its not hovering ie acting like a fast skimmer.
yup all stats are locked at 1-10.
if you have different saves you keep rolling against the closest untill it dies, not as broken as it sounds as chars give the hits to the squad on a 4+/2+. if not you just take all the saves and remove the closest models.
i must have answered this several times, have a look through.
tetrisphreak wrote:Are Fast, open-topped Transports still the exception to the 6" disembark rule?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 7 hours ago
nope
Men, fast (open-topped) skimmers should be handled differently here. MEQ armies will be favored once again.
Fast Skimmers were no faster than normal vehicles last edition when it came to disembarking troops, both could move 12 inches and disembark.
I agree it was a bad design choice though, all they have done is make it so the vehicle will be a bit further away from the disembarking models, and because it can only move 6 inches will be eligible to fire a single weapon, so they make slower fire support transports (like the already ubiquitous Razorback) more practical, cause they can shunt the units inside 12 inches just like a rhino while having their firepower still available.
pretre wrote:Woah rending is roll to hit again?
Not necessarily, rending auto-wounded on a 6 in 5th edition as well, in that, it would wound even if the strength of the attack was normally insufficient to wound.
Not necessarily, rending auto-wounded on a 6 in 5th edition as well, in that, it would wound even if the strength of the attack was normally insufficient to wound.
Yeah, I'm aware of that. His wording was vague and looked like it was a return to the other way of doing rending, however.
Thankyou, this will save a lot of time. Has anyone done an updated summary based off this guy?
Kroot has compiled all my highlights into spoilers in the 1st post of the thread.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does morale play a larger role in 6th ed? Is it still 25% shooting casualties? No Regrouping if below 50%? Rumours said you can always regroup if sergeant type model is still alive?
Are there any good mysterious terrain results? Care to list some interesting or funny ones?
can regroup as long as you are over 25% and independent chars mean you can at any time.
funny terrain, one where you get so comfortalbe taht you get feel no pain but must pass an LD test to leave it. - ice that freezes you armor and give you +1 save.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, while I'm asking Eldar questions... can Jetbikes still do their assault phase jump move? Is it 6" or 2D6? Sorry if this has been answered- I thought I saw it but then lost it again...
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 9 hours ago
its 2D6, but you may not do it if you turbo boosted. but i will say taht due to the new always measure rules this can be very effective ''move shoot move'' unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On vehicle squadrons:
the closest vehicle must be destroyed before you start hitting the rest of the squad.
Please tell me that the Weapon Skill charts have been modified. I loved how my WS 8 Succubus is fighting WS 3 and 4 units that still hit on 4's.
[–]Rixitotal[S] 3 points 9 hours ago
no change, and as a side not no change to the wound charts so you always wound on a 6 like in fantasy. wraithlords are safe.He's saying the to hit and to wound charts are both identical to 5th edition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sigvatr wrote:
tetrisphreak wrote:Are Fast, open-topped Transports still the exception to the 6" disembark rule?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 7 hours ago
nope]
*shelfs CCB*
Surfboard Lord takes a hit, Unless the FAQ for Necrons allows him to do sweep attacks in the shooting phase. Remember in 5th there was no vehicle movement in the shooting phase, so that is one rule they would have purposely written with 5th in mind, hopefully to change in 6th.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That's all again from rixitotal. in the thread there is a lot of repeated information. If you want go ahead and read through his comments, the link is:
Why? move 12 in the movement phase to pass over the enemy unit. Get your hits in. Then move flat out in the shooting phase. We now basically always get to hit on 3's. Also just moving gets you that 5+ save since it is a skimmer. and also gets the 4+ save for going flat out. Takes a little more tactical movement but hey, no problem with needing to play smarter in my opinion
I'm sorry if this is repetition but that can't be right, can it?
Can you please check (ask the guy) again? I thought Wraiths were underpriced in 5th edition, but we're being told that not only did they become an average 3" faster, they got free I10 attacks each on the charge, and their rending auto wounds with AP2 on hit rolls, making them quite possibly the best overall assault unit in the entire 40K when you consider everything they got going for them (fast, invulnerable saves, a lot of T4 wounds for the price, ignore terrain altogether, capable of popping tanks, etc).
tetrisphreak wrote:
Surfboard Lord takes a hit, Unless the FAQ for Necrons allows him to do sweep attacks in the shooting phase. Remember in 5th there was no vehicle movement in the shooting phase, so that is one rule they would have purposely written with 5th in mind, hopefully to change in 6th.
Yes, that's what I hope for, else the rule would not make sense at all. A threat range of 12'' means that you have to be right in front of the enemy unit BEFORE their turn...and they could either just run away or even assault the transport...furthermore, watch the transporter melt away.
Drastically reduced threat range with the Sweep Attack, lord can no longer sweep and disembark...yeah. Looking forward to the FAQ, else CCB is dead to me, especially now that our HD get rerolls to hit AND +1 on the damage chart.
That above is a retraction from earlier in the thread where he mentioned that pens do not drop hull points. In fact they do drop them, and additionally allow a damage roll. Glances only drop the Hull Points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: He is playing his 1st game of 6th today. I'll be interested to see his impressions when he posts again.
Ok, so a transport (even if it's a fast Skimmer or a flyer) can only allow units to disembark if it has moved 6" now? I think that's what it said on a post earlier...
Can a flyer even move only 6". As far as i am aware the nightscythe doesn't have a Hover mode so doesn't it always have to do the whoel 12"-36" Zoom thing?
Colour me confusd.
Also wanting to know the MC rules. I was about to start building a Tomb Stalker but with the nerf to fleet and random charges i'm not sure it will be worth it now.
Sephyr wrote:I'm boggling at the Power Axe thing, honestly. Only MeQ armies have the actual bit, and even then not all of them.
I also see almost no reason why you wouldn't go for a Power Fist instead, as it gives you beter Strength at the same initiative. It's not even clear yet if the axe lets you keep the extra attack from 2 ccws. It better be -amazingly- cheap, point-wise.
Power weapon - +15 points
Power Fist - +25 points
that's why you'd choose the weapon over the fist - saving points.
The cost of the power weapon is hardly justifiable, since with AP3 Termies can hardly be scratched.
Praxiss wrote:Ok, so a transport (even if it's a fast Skimmer or a flyer) can only allow units to disembark if it has moved 6" now? I think that's what it said on a post earlier...
Can a flyer even move only 6". As far as i am aware the nightscythe doesn't have a Hover mode so doesn't it always have to do the whoel 12"-36" Zoom thing?
Colour me confusd.
Also wanting to know the MC rules. I was about to start building a Tomb Stalker but with the nerf to fleet and random charges i'm not sure it will be worth it now.
Flyers that are also transports WILL be errata'd to have a 'hover mode'. That is just a prediction, but i'd bet good money on it to be true.
What i'm unsure of is if flyers are allowed to hover onto the board when the become available, or if they MUST zoom in their first turn on the board. There are lots of tiny nuances in this game that influence how people will play it, so until i get the BRB in my grubby little mitts i won't be fully satisfied. That said, a lot of these bits and pieces from rixitotal have helped quench my thirst for knowledge, at least temporarily so.
I've got big hopes that 6th edition will be the fun story-telling wargame i always had in mind.
Also go ahead and put that tomb stalker together. It's a forgeworld model anyway so i'm sure whoever agrees to let you use it won't mind house ruling his movement and such.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Let us all please remember that the prices for power weapons were set before they were AP3.
AP3 power weapons that cost a lot of points vs. cheap rending that is AP2 on all hit rolls of 6. Mind boggling.
6 new Wraiths do 5 auto-wounds against anything without invulnerable saves on the charge, and against T4 they'll also give you 8.3 saving throws to roll on top of those 5 kills?
H.B.M.C. wrote:Let us all please remember that the prices for power weapons were set before they were AP3.
Agreed, these sort of changes wont start to make sense until the next codex coems out which will, presumably start to list Power swords, axes, mauls etc as separate entries in wargear options.
Praxiss wrote:Ok, so a transport (even if it's a fast Skimmer or a flyer) can only allow units to disembark if it has moved 6" now? I think that's what it said on a post earlier...
Can a flyer even move only 6". As far as i am aware the nightscythe doesn't have a Hover mode so doesn't it always have to do the whoel 12"-36" Zoom thing?
.
I'm sure that'll be errata'd into the Night Scythe. What has me curious is if the transported units suffer when the Scythe dies. As it is now, Zooming flier transports inflict a Str10 AP1 hit on transported models when shot down, but the NS has that rule which means the models inside come in from reserve when it's shot down, as they're not actually in the flier. I'd not be surprised if they got a FAQ which made transported units immune to the Str10 AP1 hit as a result.
Sephyr wrote:I'm boggling at the Power Axe thing, honestly. Only MeQ armies have the actual bit, and even then not all of them.
I also see almost no reason why you wouldn't go for a Power Fist instead, as it gives you beter Strength at the same initiative. It's not even clear yet if the axe lets you keep the extra attack from 2 ccws. It better be -amazingly- cheap, point-wise.
Power weapon - +15 points
Power Fist - +25 points
that's why you'd choose the weapon over the fist - saving points.
The cost of the power weapon is hardly justifiable, since with AP3 Termies can hardly be scratched.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Let us all please remember that the prices for power weapons were set before they were AP3.
A-ha. That is true. However if we take the peephole of knowledge we've been given, we can extrapolate this: Power Weapons are options in codices. Our people 'in the know' have told us that in the book it says a power weapon is represented by what is held. In that regard we have this list:
Power Sword - 15 points - S: User, AP 3, I: User
Power Axe - 15 points - S: User+1, AP2, I: 1
Power Maul - 15 points - S:User+2 AP4, I: User
So for the same 15 point upgrade, depending on what you're looking for, you could potentially arm your sergeant or vanguard veteran or captain, or what-have-you, with any of the listed 'power' options (since codex gives you power weapon).
Maybe the points are too high, it wouldn't be the first time an edition change has nerfed options in a codex. however I see it as an opportunity for some really interesting modeling.
Therion wrote:AP3 power weapons that cost a lot of points vs. cheap rending that is AP2 on all hit rolls of 6. Mind boggling.
6 new Wraiths do 5 auto-wounds against anything on the charge, and against T4 they'll also give you 8.3 saving throws to roll?
My point is screaming "They're not worth it!" is pointless because when they were costed they didn't have these rules, so of course the balance has been disrupted.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Let us all please remember that the prices for power weapons were set before they were AP3.
AP3 power weapons that cost a lot of points vs. cheap rending that is AP2 on all hit rolls of 6. Mind boggling.
6 new Wraiths do 5 auto-wounds against anything without invulnerable saves on the charge, and against T4 they'll also give you 8.3 saving throws to roll on top of those 5 kills?
At first you chronically getting rules wrong in your assessment of 6th edition was kind of amusing, it's well past that now, it's just sad.
You have 0 proof that rending happens on a to-hit roll, so please stop regurgitating that garbage and spreading misinformation.
Alright fellas, i'm off to get some work done. Just a few more days and this thread really will be closed -- because we'll ALL have the book. Until then, have fun with 5th edition. Personally i'm pretty hyped about 6th and the neat scenarios/fun games it should bring with it.
Let's all cross our fingers that the power gamers and WAAC boys take at least a year before they break the book with stupid combos and lists. Yeah?
tetrisphreak wrote:Alright fellas, i'm off to get some work done. Just a few more days and this thread really will be closed -- because we'll ALL have the book. Until then, have fun with 5th edition. Personally i'm pretty hyped about 6th and the neat scenarios/fun games it should bring with it.
Let's all cross our fingers that the power gamers and WAAC boys take at least a year before they break the book with stupid combos and lists. Yeah?
It'll take 6 months before the rules lawyering calms down enough to even consider what the actual power lists are
All flyer transports can opt for hover mode at the start of the turn and then are treated as fast skimmers for the rest of the turn. This is was in the GW video. Unknown if the flyer can move out of reserve this way. But with the limit of only allowing disembark after 6", this would make the Valkyrie/Vendetta (maybe the Night Scythe as well?) unable to drop their cargo in the turn they arrive, because they have to move over 6" to be able to be deployed on the board. Also, this would mean the end of suicide melta vets I guess, as the Valkyrie/Vendetta must start in reserve.
EDIT: also, with Deepstrike unchanged, this would mean you won't be able to deploy your troops from your deepstriking transport the turn it arrives. But would allow you to snap-fire with its passengers the turn it arrives, provided the transport has firepoints/is opentopped. Interesting.
I'm guessing the rending rules haven't changed at all. In fifth, rending auto-wounds on a to-wound roll of 6. Sorry, no OP wraiths/razorwing flock.
tetrisphreak wrote:Alright fellas, i'm off to get some work done. Just a few more days and this thread really will be closed -- because we'll ALL have the book. Until then, have fun with 5th edition. Personally i'm pretty hyped about 6th and the neat scenarios/fun games it should bring with it.
Let's all cross our fingers that the power gamers and WAAC boys take at least a year before they break the book with stupid combos and lists. Yeah?
Also, this would mean the end of suicide melta vets I guess, as the Valkyrie/Vendetta must start in reserve.
I'm wondering why you came to that conclusion? Reserves are 3+ on turn two so that's 2+ with an Astropath. What you would do is zoom on the board, moving pretty much as fast as you need to get to the optimal firing position, and shooting with four heavy weapons. In the enemy's turn your Vendetta would be very hard to hit and has the option to also evade so it gets a 5+ cover save. In the Guard turn, if he wanted, he could now hover the Vendetta and drop down the cargo after moving 6", while still naturally also maintaining a strong shooting capability, but losing the 6's to hit protection.
Ouch... double whammy for Orks unless trukks get a special exemption from the "No assaulting out of moving vehicles, even open topped ones". Dark Eldar too, I would imagine.
tetrisphreak wrote:Please tell me that the Weapon Skill charts have been modified. I loved how my WS 8 Succubus is fighting WS 3 and 4 units that still hit on 4's.
[–]Rixitotal[S] 3 points 9 hours ago
no change, and as a side not no change to the wound charts so you always wound on a 6 like in fantasy. wraithlords are safe.He's saying the to hit and to wound charts are both identical to 5th edition.
Well, with both to hit charts staying as is, I can scratch two more of my fave things about the pancake edition off the list. I am disappoint.
Also, this would mean the end of suicide melta vets I guess, as the Valkyrie/Vendetta must start in reserve.
I'm wondering why you came to that conclusion? Reserves are 3+ on turn two so that's 2+ with an Astropath. What you would do is zoom on the board, moving pretty much as fast as you need to get to the optimal firing position, and shooting with four heavy weapons. In the enemy's turn your Vendetta would be very hard to hit and has the option to also evade so it gets a 5+ cover save. In the Guard turn, if he wanted, he could now hover the Vendetta and drop down the cargo after moving 6", while still naturally also maintaining a strong shooting capability, but losing the 6's to hit protection.
I think he means suicide demo vets for scout > first turn assault with MB.
Also, this would mean the end of suicide melta vets I guess, as the Valkyrie/Vendetta must start in reserve.
I'm wondering why you came to that conclusion? Reserves are 3+ on turn two so that's 2+ with an Astropath. What you would do is zoom on the board, moving pretty much as fast as you need to get to the optimal firing position, and shooting with four heavy weapons. In the enemy's turn your Vendetta would be very hard to hit and has the option to also evade so it gets a 5+ cover save. In the Guard turn, if he wanted, he could now hover the Vendetta and drop down the cargo after moving 6", while still naturally also maintaining a strong shooting capability, but losing the 6's to hit protection.
And if your opponent manages to shoot your Vendetta down (with AA/interceptor if needed), you meltavets will suffer a fiery STR10 AP1 death. It's hardly the free-scout (with or without flatout), free-deploy move it is now.
streamdragon wrote:Ouch... double whammy for Orks unless trukks get a special exemption from the "No assaulting out of moving vehicles, even open topped ones". Dark Eldar too, I would imagine.
Open Topped vehicles can be assaulted out of, they have a special rule shared with the likes of Land Raiders and Stormravens
streamdragon wrote:Ouch... double whammy for Orks unless trukks get a special exemption from the "No assaulting out of moving vehicles, even open topped ones". Dark Eldar too, I would imagine.
Open Topped vehicles can be assaulted out of, they have a special rule shared with the likes of Land Raiders and Stormravens
Ah, I must have missed that point somewhere. Just saw this:
Are Fast, open-topped Transports still the exception to the 6" disembark rule?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 7 hours ago
nope
And figured I wouldn't be getting out of any trukk that had gone farther than a Boy could walk.
I think he means suicide demo vets for scout > first turn assault with MB.
I see, well, the alpha strike leafblowing has only changed a little. It's still very potent, if not even more so. Flyers always get their optimal shots off before anyone has a chance to react and in turn are very hard to drop down. No more worrying that your Vendettas are killed before they get to shoot, or that they can only shoot only one lascannon when they enter play because of the model being so big.
Maelstrom808 wrote:Pretty sure rending is just a regurgitation of the 5th ed rules:
Ignores armor (AP2) - check
+D3 to armor penetration - check
auto-wounds regardless of toughness - check
I believe the rumor is that the auto wound occurs on the hit roll now
That rumor came from him saying that 6s auto-wound. You could take a logical leap and assume that this means to hit rolls of 6 will cause auto-wounds, or you can tie that into the current rules. I think the latter is more likely.
I wouldn't imagine normal transports would be that much more homicidal to those embarked upon them, the hull points thing already makes them a reasonably iffy choice in my mind (or it would if I didn't play Necrons and have the amazing zoomy croissant.
EDIT: In reference to that video, at least Simon isn't a robot. I like the idea of capturing terrain, especially if you can get defensive bonuses (above the norm, that is) for doing so.
streamdragon wrote:Ouch... double whammy for Orks unless trukks get a special exemption from the "No assaulting out of moving vehicles, even open topped ones". Dark Eldar too, I would imagine.
Open Topped vehicles can be assaulted out of, they have a special rule shared with the likes of Land Raiders and Stormravens
Ah, I must have missed that point somewhere. Just saw this:
Are Fast, open-topped Transports still the exception to the 6" disembark rule?
[–]Rixitotal[S] 2 points 7 hours ago
nope
And figured I wouldn't be getting out of any trukk that had gone farther than a Boy could walk.
You still misunderstand how it is rumored to work. Your trukk moves 6", you disembark the passengers up to 6" from any point on the sides of the trukk. In the assault, you move 2D6 inches to, hopefully, make contact with your target. you should also get the 1" extra for a Red Paint Job unless GW changes it in the FAQ.
All open- topped transports have the Assault USR so their passengers are eligible to assault in the same turn that they disembark. Sixth edition still doesn't allow the Rhino Rush, according to the folks that claim to have a rulebook.
Praxiss wrote:Ok, so a transport (even if it's a fast Skimmer or a flyer) can only allow units to disembark if it has moved 6" now? I think that's what it said on a post earlier...
Unless GW changes the rules for Valks and Vens, passengers can deep strike via grav chute even if the vehicle moves Flat Out. It's risky but it is an option unless revised in the codex FAQs.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Wait... if Valks have Scout... and have to start in Reserve... how would that work?
Possibly just allows them to outflank and nothing else. We don't know yet. Outflanking isn't that big of a deal though for the flyers considering how fast they are now while still firing weapons.
Praxiss wrote:Ok, so a transport (even if it's a fast Skimmer or a flyer) can only allow units to disembark if it has moved 6" now? I think that's what it said on a post earlier...
Unless GW changes the rules for Valks and Vens, passengers can deep strike via grav chute even if the vehicle moves Flat Out. It's risky but it is an option unless revised in the codex FAQs.
Flat out is now a move in the shooting phase, basically "run" for vehicles.
there's no way to know what grav chute insertion will mean in the new rules until the FAQ is out.
Praxiss wrote:Ok, so a transport (even if it's a fast Skimmer or a flyer) can only allow units to disembark if it has moved 6" now? I think that's what it said on a post earlier...
Unless GW changes the rules for Valks and Vens, passengers can deep strike via grav chute even if the vehicle moves Flat Out. It's risky but it is an option unless revised in the codex FAQs.
Flat out is now a move in the shooting phase, basically "run" for vehicles.
there's no way to know what grav chute insertion will mean in the new rules until the FAQ is out.
In that case, the rule will need a FAQ or go the way of the Dodo.
Praxiss wrote:Ok, so a transport (even if it's a fast Skimmer or a flyer) can only allow units to disembark if it has moved 6" now? I think that's what it said on a post earlier...
Unless GW changes the rules for Valks and Vens, passengers can deep strike via grav chute even if the vehicle moves Flat Out. It's risky but it is an option unless revised in the codex FAQs.
Flat out is now a move in the shooting phase, basically "run" for vehicles.
there's no way to know what grav chute insertion will mean in the new rules until the FAQ is out.
In that case, the rule will need a FAQ or go the way of the Dodo.
Same for the Stormraven rule which is pretty much the same thing.
BarBoBot wrote:So tau are battle brothers with space marines...
and not the IG who would have let them include a cool gue'vesa attachment, yeah I'm a bit perplexed by it too, presumably some of Ward's fluff will explain it... poorly
, lot of great people around here to ask.
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