I'm also glad that you live in a fantasy world. You didn't the riddle on how 3 Knights with nearly 700 points to spare with bubblewrap won't kill off your marines. Also, do you seriously for a second believe that the bubblewrap is immobile and unable to move out of the way from the Knights? And somehow they will also cause them to get stuck for 5-7 rounds while you peacefully sit back and sit on objectives? Do you even hear yourself?
Since when? The rulebook states that you can declare a secondary target to your primary target. There's no restrictions on single models.
This is also entirely irrelevant because we have now established that with 3 Knights they'll easily have a bubblewrap, which means that the Knights can delete 1-2 squads each, each turn and will literally kill the rest of your reserves just as fast as they enter the board. After turn 4, he will just clean up.
Zewrath wrote: Since when? The rulebook states that you can declare a secondary target to your primary target. There's no restrictions on single models.
This is also entirely irrelevant because we have now established that with 3 Knights they'll easily have a bubblewrap, which means that the Knights can delete 1-2 squads each, each turn and will literally kill the rest of your reserves just as fast as they enter the board. After turn 4, he will just clean up.
Sure, sure. We have established your opinion on the matter.
I'm also glad that you live in a fantasy world. You didn't the riddle on how 3 Knights with nearly 700 points to spare with bubblewrap won't kill off your marines. Also, do you seriously for a second believe that the bubblewrap is immobile and unable to move out of the way from the Knights? And somehow they will also cause them to get stuck for 5-7 rounds while you peacefully sit back and sit on objectives? Do you even hear yourself?
Wait, is zewrath arguing that 6e drop pod marine spam made even better by 7e's free transports and extra grav options is not a good list when the top marine player in the ITC got there by using a 6e pod marine spam list?
Seriously, a whole bunch of obsec units showing up all over the board and constantly getting both maelstrom a turn, denying you maelstrom unless you roll up "kill 2 units," getting almost certain first blood/first strike, and either claiming or denying you the primary is actually pretty beast in the ITC missions. Especially when it goes 2nd. That means you only get 4-6 turns to kill it all, and some of it is off-table and not killable until after t2 or 3.
And while you may argue that multiassault is possible with single models in the core rules, the ITC FAQ clarifies that you can never assault more than one unit with one model.
niv-mizzet wrote: Wait, is zewrath arguing that 6e drop pod marine spam made even better by 7e's free transports and extra grav options is not a good list when the top marine player in the ITC got there by using a 6e pod marine spam list?
Seriously, a whole bunch of obsec units showing up all over the board and constantly getting both maelstrom a turn, denying you maelstrom unless you roll up "kill 2 units," getting almost certain first blood/first strike, and either claiming or denying you the primary is actually pretty beast in the ITC missions. Especially when it goes 2nd. That means you only get 4-6 turns to kill it all, and some of it is off-table and not killable until after t2 or 3.
And while you may argue that multiassault is possible with single models in the core rules, the ITC FAQ clarifies that you can never assault more than one unit with one model.
No, he's arguing that said list has a mediocre damage output against knights with a bubblewrap and is not realistically going to so much else other than getting deleted 4-6 squads on average per turn. Furthermore, the other list was optimized around Calgar and drop pods with proper payload. Not a list were 5/13 of the units and HQ's are dead weigth. Furthermore, how did the 6th edition drop pod work? To my knowledge, you would lose if you didn't have anything on the table at the end of a turn, so unless he went first in all his match ups, how was that list even remotely reliable? Just curious.
Zewrath wrote: Since when? The rulebook states that you can declare a secondary target to your primary target. There's no restrictions on single models.
It's been that way since 6th Edition dude. You declare Primary and Secondary targets. The initial charger must move into base contact with the Primary Target - if he can't, then the charge fails. Any other model in the unit can move into base contact with either the Primary or Secondary targets (but can only move into the Secondary Target if it cannot reach an unengaged model in the Primary Target).
Therefore, a Single Model unit can only ever charge the Primary Target. I guess nothing stops you declaring a Secondary Target though, so they can get a free Overwatch on you??
Zewrath wrote: Since when? The rulebook states that you can declare a secondary target to your primary target. There's no restrictions on single models.
It's been that way since 6th Edition dude. You declare Primary and Secondary targets. The initial charger must move into base contact with the Primary Target - if he can't, then the charge fails. Any other model in the unit can move into base contact with either the Primary or Secondary targets (but can only move into the Secondary Target if it cannot reach an unengaged model in the Primary Target).
Therefore, a Single Model unit can only ever charge the Primary Target. I guess nothing stops you declaring a Secondary Target though, so they can get a free Overwatch on you??
Fair enough. Never came up in my games so w/e. Still doesn't change anything in my point above.
In theory, if you've got three models stood in a V-shape and you're charging the middle one, a single model can end up in a multiple assault if the three targets are all equidistant from the middle of the V-shape, and the distance to that middle point is also the radius of your base (it gets wonky with oval bases, but still works in theory).
Good luck getting that scenario to happen in-game though.
Zewrath wrote: To my knowledge, you would lose if you didn't have anything on the table at the end of a turn, so unless he went first in all his match ups, how was that list even remotely reliable? Just curious.
Zewrath wrote: To my knowledge, you would lose if you didn't have anything on the table at the end of a turn, so unless he went first in all his match ups, how was that list even remotely reliable? Just curious.
End of any game turn not player turn.
Yes, in 7th. They made that distinction clear. Not in 6th.
First of all, GoonBandito wins the prize for not only correctly recalling the rules, but describing it in a simple fashion that anyone can understand. Exalt for that!
For reference, the rule is on p.55 in bold under Multiple Combats: "a charging model is not permitted to move into base contact with a model in a secondary target, unless it cannot move into base contact with an unengaged model in the primary target."
Multiple combat works when you have unit A with 2+ members charging units B and C. Once the model #1 in unit A charges unit B (or C, if B is unreachable), model #2 can decide whether it charges unit B or C. The BRB is actually pretty clear.
On the subject of drop pods, MSU, and Knights --
A lot of it is really skill level of the players involved. A skilled drop pod player is fearsome, but most drop pod players do goofy stupid things. Same with Knights.
Petre seems to know what he's talking about I share a few similar experiences, but I must say that my experiences playing more than 7 pods is very limited, because that's not the kind of game or style I like. But anyhow, drop pods are a army that have the potential to win in a wide variety of games, and I think that most of us can agree that Gladius Company gives pod armies more potential than a CAD drop pod army.
If you think you're going to have a near-100% win ratio against a CAD pod army, then you'll probably still do just fine against a pod Gladius Company played by the same people. It's not some magic potion.
Knights are also good, but they're hardly unbeatable.
Zewrath wrote: To my knowledge, you would lose if you didn't have anything on the table at the end of a turn, so unless he went first in all his match ups, how was that list even remotely reliable? Just curious.
End of any game turn not player turn.
Yes, in 7th. They made that distinction clear. Not in 6th.
It was Game Turn in 6th as well. Pg 122 (If you still have a copy)
Zewrath wrote:Since when? The rulebook states that you can declare a secondary target to your primary target. There's no restrictions on single models.
You can, but you can only come into base contact with the 1 target (the primary, or if you can't reach it, the secondary). If you had a second model, it could choose which target, as long as it's in range. (see above for quoted rule)
Zewrath wrote:Furthermore, how did the 6th edition drop pod work? To my knowledge, you would lose if you didn't have anything on the table at the end of a turn, so unless he went first in all his match ups, how was that list even remotely reliable? Just curious.
You are right, of course. ANY game turn where only 1 player has no models, the other player wins. But, assuming that you have some warlord (Calgar, Captain, whatever), just park him out of range near an objective on your own side of the table.
Yes, yes but I don't give a hoot about the multiple assault crap. As I said it's irrelevant now.
3 Knights will delete 4-6 5-man squads on average per turn. On average you can expect 4 extra drop pods the next round, all of which are incapable of doing jack against the Knights and will die at the same pace as they enter the board, unless they are dropped far away, in which case the Knights will use their turn to easily clean 3-5 drop pods. Fast forward to turn 3 and the Knights will just go around the map and clear up the useless remains of the drop pods / MSU units, while quite possibly holding objectives meanwhile, due to their fast movement
I'm genuinely baffled at how anyone fails to see this.
Zewrath wrote: Yes, yes but I don't give a hoot about the multiple assault crap. As I said it's irrelevant now.
3 Knights will delete 4-6 5-man squads on average per turn. On average you can expect 4 extra drop pods the next round, all of which are incapable of doing jack against the Knights and will die at the same pace as they enter the board, unless they are dropped far away, in which case the Knights will use their turn to easily clean 3-5 drop pods. Fast forward to turn 3 and the Knights will just go around the map and clear up the useless remains of the drop pods / MSU units, while quite possibly holding objectives meanwhile, due to their fast movement
I'm genuinely baffled at how anyone fails to see this.
You are grossly overvaluing knights. Where are you pulling this 4-6 figure from? Do you visualize your opponent placing his marines in opportune positions for you to clear 4-6 a turn? Is the battlefield in your minds eye a barren wasteland devoid of all LOS blocking terrain?
Zewrath wrote: Yes, yes but I don't give a hoot about the multiple assault crap. As I said it's irrelevant now.
3 Knights will delete 4-6 5-man squads on average per turn. On average you can expect 4 extra drop pods the next round, all of which are incapable of doing jack against the Knights and will die at the same pace as they enter the board, unless they are dropped far away, in which case the Knights will use their turn to easily clean 3-5 drop pods. Fast forward to turn 3 and the Knights will just go around the map and clear up the useless remains of the drop pods / MSU units, while quite possibly holding objectives meanwhile, due to their fast movement
I'm genuinely baffled at how anyone fails to see this.
You are grossly overvaluing knights. Where are you pulling this 4-6 figure from? Do you visualize your opponent placing his marines in opportune positions for you to clear 4-6 a turn? Is the battlefield in your minds eye a barren wasteland devoid of all LOS blocking terrain?
With multiple battle cannons, ap3 rocket launchers and ap3 rending Gatling cannons on squads that the person claims that he will land near the Knights? Is this hard for people? Really?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: Dude, just let it go. He has his opinion and is not to be swayed.
Except yours don't add up to reality. I already explained how bad your list would fare against 3 Knights with wrap. It gets even worse with 5 Knights lined up. Is it so hard to admit that your precious little list folds against a certain list?
Zewrath wrote: Yes, yes but I don't give a hoot about the multiple assault crap. As I said it's irrelevant now.
3 Knights will delete 4-6 5-man squads on average per turn. On average you can expect 4 extra drop pods the next round, all of which are incapable of doing jack against the Knights and will die at the same pace as they enter the board, unless they are dropped far away, in which case the Knights will use their turn to easily clean 3-5 drop pods. Fast forward to turn 3 and the Knights will just go around the map and clear up the useless remains of the drop pods / MSU units, while quite possibly holding objectives meanwhile, due to their fast movement
I'm genuinely baffled at how anyone fails to see this.
You are grossly overvaluing knights. Where are you pulling this 4-6 figure from? Do you visualize your opponent placing his marines in opportune positions for you to clear 4-6 a turn? Is the battlefield in your minds eye a barren wasteland devoid of all LOS blocking terrain?
With multiple battle cannons, ap3 rocket launchers and ap3 rending Gatling cannons on squads that the person claims that he will land near the Knights? Is this hard for people? Really?
Of course, we are incorrect. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Zewrath wrote: Yes, yes but I don't give a hoot about the multiple assault crap. As I said it's irrelevant now.
3 Knights will delete 4-6 5-man squads on average per turn. On average you can expect 4 extra drop pods the next round, all of which are incapable of doing jack against the Knights and will die at the same pace as they enter the board, unless they are dropped far away, in which case the Knights will use their turn to easily clean 3-5 drop pods. Fast forward to turn 3 and the Knights will just go around the map and clear up the useless remains of the drop pods / MSU units, while quite possibly holding objectives meanwhile, due to their fast movement
I'm genuinely baffled at how anyone fails to see this.
You are grossly overvaluing knights. Where are you pulling this 4-6 figure from? Do you visualize your opponent placing his marines in opportune positions for you to clear 4-6 a turn? Is the battlefield in your minds eye a barren wasteland devoid of all LOS blocking terrain?
With multiple battle cannons, ap3 rocket launchers and ap3 rending Gatling cannons on squads that the person claims that he will land near the Knights? Is this hard for people? Really?
Of course, we are incorrect. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Zewrath wrote: Yes, yes but I don't give a hoot about the multiple assault crap. As I said it's irrelevant now.
3 Knights will delete 4-6 5-man squads on average per turn. On average you can expect 4 extra drop pods the next round, all of which are incapable of doing jack against the Knights and will die at the same pace as they enter the board, unless they are dropped far away, in which case the Knights will use their turn to easily clean 3-5 drop pods. Fast forward to turn 3 and the Knights will just go around the map and clear up the useless remains of the drop pods / MSU units, while quite possibly holding objectives meanwhile, due to their fast movement
I'm genuinely baffled at how anyone fails to see this.
You are grossly overvaluing knights. Where are you pulling this 4-6 figure from? Do you visualize your opponent placing his marines in opportune positions for you to clear 4-6 a turn? Is the battlefield in your minds eye a barren wasteland devoid of all LOS blocking terrain?
When presenting a hypothetical scenario that involves 'unbeatable army A' vs. the 'lolz actually sucks army B', army 'A' always has perfect positioning & LoS while army 'B' is always in perfect clumped-up formation for maximum damage, and the game is played entirely on Planet Bowling Ball.
Zewrath wrote: Yes, yes but I don't give a hoot about the multiple assault crap. As I said it's irrelevant now.
3 Knights will delete 4-6 5-man squads on average per turn. On average you can expect 4 extra drop pods the next round, all of which are incapable of doing jack against the Knights and will die at the same pace as they enter the board, unless they are dropped far away, in which case the Knights will use their turn to easily clean 3-5 drop pods. Fast forward to turn 3 and the Knights will just go around the map and clear up the useless remains of the drop pods / MSU units, while quite possibly holding objectives meanwhile, due to their fast movement
I'm genuinely baffled at how anyone fails to see this.
You are grossly overvaluing knights. Where are you pulling this 4-6 figure from? Do you visualize your opponent placing his marines in opportune positions for you to clear 4-6 a turn? Is the battlefield in your minds eye a barren wasteland devoid of all LOS blocking terrain?
With multiple battle cannons, ap3 rocket launchers and ap3 rending Gatling cannons on squads that the person claims that he will land near the Knights? Is this hard for people? Really?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pretre wrote: Dude, just let it go. He has his opinion and is not to be swayed.
Except yours don't add up to reality. I already explained how bad your list would fare against 3 Knights with wrap. It gets even worse with 5 Knights lined up. Is it so hard to admit that your precious little list folds against a certain list?
Have you actually played against a 6e drop pod army piloted by a good opponent at a RTT or GT or are you making blind assumptions and spouting "is it really that hard for people to grasp?" ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: And with that we should probably shift the list building debates to the appropriate sub-fourm.
Zewrath wrote: Yes, yes but I don't give a hoot about the multiple assault crap. As I said it's irrelevant now.
3 Knights will delete 4-6 5-man squads on average per turn. On average you can expect 4 extra drop pods the next round, all of which are incapable of doing jack against the Knights and will die at the same pace as they enter the board, unless they are dropped far away, in which case the Knights will use their turn to easily clean 3-5 drop pods. Fast forward to turn 3 and the Knights will just go around the map and clear up the useless remains of the drop pods / MSU units, while quite possibly holding objectives meanwhile, due to their fast movement
I'm genuinely baffled at how anyone fails to see this.
You are grossly overvaluing knights. Where are you pulling this 4-6 figure from? Do you visualize your opponent placing his marines in opportune positions for you to clear 4-6 a turn? Is the battlefield in your minds eye a barren wasteland devoid of all LOS blocking terrain?
When presenting a hypothetical scenario that involves 'unbeatable army A' vs. the 'lolz actually sucks army B', army 'A' always has perfect positioning & LoS while army 'B' is always in perfect clumped-up formation for maximum damage, and the game is played entirely on Planet Bowling Ball.
1.
5 Knights in line. Clump around 1-2 Knights to even have a chance to focus the firepower needed to kill a Knight with his list. 1 Knight dies. 4 are left and kills the clump and kills the rest of the useless incoming units.
2.
5 Knights in line. Drop pod in front of all Knights so they can't move because "lol tacticz". No Knight dies due to no way to focus fire. Knights kills each of the squads that lands in front of them and assaults the drop pod and kills the rest of the useless incoming units.
3.
5 Knights in line. Deploy drop pods "tacticz" away from Knights and LOS and in a dense urban jungle with huge LOS. Knights spend 1 extra turn on getting in range and starts killing. Meanwhile the SM has no way of focusing fire on the Knight for the entire game. SM can honker down and hope to get lucky draws on the mael cards.
Nope. No scenario is the SM army even remotely good. Not SM in general, mind, just the listed drop pod army of course, because for some reason people are willing to devoid themselves of reality just to make it stand out to be the best list. EVAH!
3.
5 Knights in line. Deploy drop pods "tacticz" away from Knights and LOS and in a dense urban jungle with huge LOS. Knights spend 1 extra turn on getting in range and starts killing. Meanwhile the SM has no way of focusing fire on the Knight for the entire game. SM can honker down and hope to get lucky draws on the mael cards.
Saturday morning GMT is the official release time, I think. Stores in my area are supposed to hold onto them until that time -- which translates into roughly 24 hours from now (Friday afternoon).
Anyways, I love the new Space Marine codex. I've been reading through it, and I think that anyone who likes/plays SM will appreciate the new book.
Saturday morning GMT is the official release time, I think. Stores in my area are supposed to hold onto them until that time -- which translates into roughly 24 hours from now (Friday afternoon).
Anyways, I love the new Space Marine codex. I've been reading through it, and I think that anyone who likes/plays SM will appreciate the new book.
So far, I'm pretty happy with what I see. Updated for 7th, with nothing too OTT.
Yea, considering that stalker squad of three, not bad for its points, also the formation of one stalker and one hunter is not a bad price to get your auxiliary in
Leth wrote: Yea, considering that stalker squad of three, not bad for its points, also the formation of one stalker and one hunter is not a bad price to get your auxiliary in
That Formation requires at least two Stalkers and a Hunter. You could go all out and go three Stalkers(gaining Ignore Cover) and the Hunter. Shooting 9 Str7 AP4 at FMCs and Flyers at BS5 with Ignores Cover is pretty cool. Not much is going to make it out of that, especially when dogged by the Skyspear as well.
So, I am a little confused on how Feel No Pain works. How, exactly, are Iron Hands dudes getting 3+ FNP? I get how they can get a 4+ (the 5+ from the Apothecary, adding in their 1+ to get 4+), but not 3+ (or even 2+). If I put a character with FNP, such as Pedro or Vulkan, with a Command Squad, do they get more than the 5+ they already have?
Clan Bakugan has access to a +1 FNP relic (Gorgon's Chain) and a Warlord Trait on +1 FNP, so it's very possible to have 2+ FNP in a command squad. Hope you have a Vindicare!
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Clan Bakugan has access to a +1 FNP relic (Gorgon's Chain) and a Warlord Trait on +1 FNP, so it's very possible to have 2+ FNP in a command squad. Hope you have a Vindicare!
Ah. Shoot, there goes Pedro + Command Squad = Super Pedro. Oh well.
Vanguards special rule actually brings a lot for many units, especially those comprised of multiple IC's(Think T wolves) they can all join, have multiple targets and not lose the fleet charge bonus as well as the bonus attacks for charging/furious charge. Very useful just hard to bring the unit into a list and keep their points reasonable lol. They really need FNP, but by that point you might as well get Sang Guard or Honor Guard.
It's hard to bite the cost for foot vanguard even with 5 point power weapons. 24 a man vs 25 a man for honor guard, who come with power weapons and 2+ armor, but lose the vv abilities of course.
They could make for a pretty mean multiassault deathstar. Mix in some BA for a jump Libby, jump priest, and maybe Dante, and if they make it to assault, watch out!
Zewrath wrote: Yes, yes but I don't give a hoot about the multiple assault crap. As I said it's irrelevant now.
3 Knights will delete 4-6 5-man squads on average per turn. On average you can expect 4 extra drop pods the next round, all of which are incapable of doing jack against the Knights and will die at the same pace as they enter the board, unless they are dropped far away, in which case the Knights will use their turn to easily clean 3-5 drop pods. Fast forward to turn 3 and the Knights will just go around the map and clear up the useless remains of the drop pods / MSU units, while quite possibly holding objectives meanwhile, due to their fast movement
I'm genuinely baffled at how anyone fails to see this.
You are grossly overvaluing knights. Where are you pulling this 4-6 figure from? Do you visualize your opponent placing his marines in opportune positions for you to clear 4-6 a turn? Is the battlefield in your minds eye a barren wasteland devoid of all LOS blocking terrain?
When presenting a hypothetical scenario that involves 'unbeatable army A' vs. the 'lolz actually sucks army B', army 'A' always has perfect positioning & LoS while army 'B' is always in perfect clumped-up formation for maximum damage, and the game is played entirely on Planet Bowling Ball.
1.
5 Knights in line. Clump around 1-2 Knights to even have a chance to focus the firepower needed to kill a Knight with his list. 1 Knight dies. 4 are left and kills the clump and kills the rest of the useless incoming units.
2.
5 Knights in line. Drop pod in front of all Knights so they can't move because "lol tacticz". No Knight dies due to no way to focus fire. Knights kills each of the squads that lands in front of them and assaults the drop pod and kills the rest of the useless incoming units.
3.
5 Knights in line. Deploy drop pods "tacticz" away from Knights and LOS and in a dense urban jungle with huge LOS. Knights spend 1 extra turn on getting in range and starts killing. Meanwhile the SM has no way of focusing fire on the Knight for the entire game. SM can honker down and hope to get lucky draws on the mael cards.
Nope. No scenario is the SM army even remotely good. Not SM in general, mind, just the listed drop pod army of course, because for some reason people are willing to devoid themselves of reality just to make it stand out to be the best list. EVAH!
The way i read the second option. And please correct me if i am wrong is that....
You shoot unit 1 and assault unit 2 which isnt allowed unless knights have some rule i am not familiar with. Cause base ruling says you can only charge the unit you shot at.... i dont play with or against them.
Zewrath wrote: Yes, yes but I don't give a hoot about the multiple assault crap. As I said it's irrelevant now.
3 Knights will delete 4-6 5-man squads on average per turn. On average you can expect 4 extra drop pods the next round, all of which are incapable of doing jack against the Knights and will die at the same pace as they enter the board, unless they are dropped far away, in which case the Knights will use their turn to easily clean 3-5 drop pods. Fast forward to turn 3 and the Knights will just go around the map and clear up the useless remains of the drop pods / MSU units, while quite possibly holding objectives meanwhile, due to their fast movement
I'm genuinely baffled at how anyone fails to see this.
You are grossly overvaluing knights. Where are you pulling this 4-6 figure from? Do you visualize your opponent placing his marines in opportune positions for you to clear 4-6 a turn? Is the battlefield in your minds eye a barren wasteland devoid of all LOS blocking terrain?
When presenting a hypothetical scenario that involves 'unbeatable army A' vs. the 'lolz actually sucks army B', army 'A' always has perfect positioning & LoS while army 'B' is always in perfect clumped-up formation for maximum damage, and the game is played entirely on Planet Bowling Ball.
1.
5 Knights in line. Clump around 1-2 Knights to even have a chance to focus the firepower needed to kill a Knight with his list. 1 Knight dies. 4 are left and kills the clump and kills the rest of the useless incoming units.
2.
5 Knights in line. Drop pod in front of all Knights so they can't move because "lol tacticz". No Knight dies due to no way to focus fire. Knights kills each of the squads that lands in front of them and assaults the drop pod and kills the rest of the useless incoming units.
3.
5 Knights in line. Deploy drop pods "tacticz" away from Knights and LOS and in a dense urban jungle with huge LOS. Knights spend 1 extra turn on getting in range and starts killing. Meanwhile the SM has no way of focusing fire on the Knight for the entire game. SM can honker down and hope to get lucky draws on the mael cards.
Nope. No scenario is the SM army even remotely good. Not SM in general, mind, just the listed drop pod army of course, because for some reason people are willing to devoid themselves of reality just to make it stand out to be the best list. EVAH!
The way i read the second option. And please correct me if i am wrong is that....
You shoot unit 1 and assault unit 2 which isnt allowed unless knights have some rule i am not familiar with. Cause base ruling says you can only charge the unit you shot at.... i dont play with or against them.
Well, he needs to shoot the target he charges thats correct. But sinbce its a super heavy it can target more than one target with shooting. So he would just shot a stubber or something against the thing he wants to charge and the rest of the weapons against what he wants to kill with shooting.
If I had the money, I would run a very fluffy Unbound army using Pedro Kantor and a bunch of Sternguard squads. The fact Pedro makes them ObSec mitigates one of the major drawbacks of Unbound (the biggest being people hate it and ban it). If I could figure out a way to do this without going unbound, I would buy like ten boxes of Sternguard without a thought.
Zewrath wrote: Yes, yes but I don't give a hoot about the multiple assault crap. As I said it's irrelevant now.
3 Knights will delete 4-6 5-man squads on average per turn. On average you can expect 4 extra drop pods the next round, all of which are incapable of doing jack against the Knights and will die at the same pace as they enter the board, unless they are dropped far away, in which case the Knights will use their turn to easily clean 3-5 drop pods. Fast forward to turn 3 and the Knights will just go around the map and clear up the useless remains of the drop pods / MSU units, while quite possibly holding objectives meanwhile, due to their fast movement
I'm genuinely baffled at how anyone fails to see this.
You are grossly overvaluing knights. Where are you pulling this 4-6 figure from? Do you visualize your opponent placing his marines in opportune positions for you to clear 4-6 a turn? Is the battlefield in your minds eye a barren wasteland devoid of all LOS blocking terrain?
When presenting a hypothetical scenario that involves 'unbeatable army A' vs. the 'lolz actually sucks army B', army 'A' always has perfect positioning & LoS while army 'B' is always in perfect clumped-up formation for maximum damage, and the game is played entirely on Planet Bowling Ball.
1.
5 Knights in line. Clump around 1-2 Knights to even have a chance to focus the firepower needed to kill a Knight with his list. 1 Knight dies. 4 are left and kills the clump and kills the rest of the useless incoming units.
2.
5 Knights in line. Drop pod in front of all Knights so they can't move because "lol tacticz". No Knight dies due to no way to focus fire. Knights kills each of the squads that lands in front of them and assaults the drop pod and kills the rest of the useless incoming units.
3.
5 Knights in line. Deploy drop pods "tacticz" away from Knights and LOS and in a dense urban jungle with huge LOS. Knights spend 1 extra turn on getting in range and starts killing. Meanwhile the SM has no way of focusing fire on the Knight for the entire game. SM can honker down and hope to get lucky draws on the mael cards.
Nope. No scenario is the SM army even remotely good. Not SM in general, mind, just the listed drop pod army of course, because for some reason people are willing to devoid themselves of reality just to make it stand out to be the best list. EVAH!
The way i read the second option. And please correct me if i am wrong is that....
You shoot unit 1 and assault unit 2 which isnt allowed unless knights have some rule i am not familiar with. Cause base ruling says you can only charge the unit you shot at.... i dont play with or against them.
Super heavies can fire at multiple targets. Stubber one, battlecannon the other, charge the one you stubbered.
5 Knights could pretty easily kill ten units a turn.
Revarien wrote: So if I pre-ordered the special edition, will it come today by post or tomorrow while I'm wanting to play games, lol.
(in the states)
Nope. At least in Germany you had to order last Saturday at the latest to get it delivered to your local GW store for the release date. There should be a disclaimer telling you what preordering for your region entails.
Revarien wrote: So if I pre-ordered the special edition, will it come today by post or tomorrow while I'm wanting to play games, lol.
(in the states)
You'll get it sometime next week, if the previous releases are any prediction.
yeah... that's what I figured. Oh well. :/
I don't trust sending it to a store - only to be accidentally sold off or something random like that.
Just for future reference, when having stuff sent to a Games Workshop store--they aren't supposed to ever put preordered(or even any direct-ordered) items on the shelves to sell.
Individual preorders, especially for items like the Collector Edition books, come in their own shipping boxes with an invoice and everything so there's no real chance for it to "accidentally" get sold off.
So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.
Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...
Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?
"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."
Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....
I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....
fidel wrote: So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.
Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...
Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?
"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."
Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....
I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....
fidel wrote: So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.
Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...
Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?
"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."
Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....
I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....
Yeah it looks like RAW the guy is immune to anything that doesn't cause instant death. Toss him on a Bike, and suddenly only s10 and sD weapons can hurt him at all. Every other wound regardless of pass/fail on armor/invuln saves would pass it's 1+ FNP roll.
However i doubt any TO's would let people play it that way, I'd count on seeing it house-ruled everywhere that 1 always fails even on FNP rolls. not RAW, but to do otherwise seriously breaks the game. Well, for that one Chapter Master at least.
I would agree with you on the RAW, however I am pretty sure in the rule book they have already stated that a roll of a 1 is always a natural fail in these circumstances.... hence the BS 6+ chart.
I think people may be theorying too hard on the vanguard vs. honor guard-- Who, outside of when they're free like in that BA formation, completely loads out their squads with power weapons (i.e. the price per guy is inflated)? Also, is artificer armor that much better than some storm shields when going up against whatever you want a ton of power weapons to take down? And then there's general customization like a smattering of higher power weapons or being able to avoid the cost of one more assault transport/more chances to get shot up waiting to get to melee.
And then there's always just vastly more reliable charges. A re-roll per die pushes the average up by around 2, probably more.
I'm not saying Vanguard are world killers, but think "another squad can spam basic power weapons better" isn't damning when they can do other things than that.
spiralingcadaver wrote: I think people may be theorying too hard on the vanguard vs. honor guard-- Who, outside of when they're free like in that BA formation, completely loads out their squads with power weapons (i.e. the price per guy is inflated)? Also, is artificer armor that much better than some storm shields when going up against whatever you want a ton of power weapons to take down? And then there's general customization like a smattering of higher power weapons or being able to avoid the cost of one more assault transport/more chances to get shot up waiting to get to melee.
And then there's always just vastly more reliable charges. A re-roll per die pushes the average up by around 2, probably more.
I'm not saying Vanguard are world killers, but think "another squad can spam basic power weapons better" isn't damning when they can do other things than that.
True, but a 2+ armour save is 50% better if the enemy doesn't have AP3 weapons, and if they have AP3 weapons, but not AP2...
Also, if they're shot at for whatever reason, Honour Guard will do better.
fidel wrote: So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.
Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...
Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?
"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."
Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....
I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....
fidel wrote: So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.
Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...
Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?
"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."
Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....
I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....
Doesn't he also get eternal warrior from Gorgons chain?
I'll introduce him to a Demolisher Cannon, then. Even if it does, I'm pretty sure being subject to ID prevents you from taking FNP? I'm not sure about that one.
fidel wrote: So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.
Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...
Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?
"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."
Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....
I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....
Doesn't he also get eternal warrior from Gorgons chain?
I'll introduce him to a Demolisher Cannon, then. Even if it does, I'm pretty sure being subject to ID prevents you from taking FNP? I'm not sure about that one.
Eternal Warrior states that any wound that would cause instant death only removes 1 instead. Feel No Pain also states that ID ignores it, even if the model has EW. So yeah, the gorgon's chain giving EW is nice, but you can still ignore FNP with anything that causes instant death. In this case S10, S, and/or force activated weaponry.
Edit - the Ork LOL icon replacing S: D when typed unspaced is actually quite hilarious.
fidel wrote: So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.
Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...
Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?
"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."
Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....
I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....
Doesn't he also get eternal warrior from Gorgons chain?
I'll introduce him to a Demolisher Cannon, then. Even if it does, I'm pretty sure being subject to ID prevents you from taking FNP? I'm not sure about that one.
Eternal Warrior states that any wound that would cause instant death only removes 1 instead. Feel No Pain also states that ID ignores it, even if the model has EW. So yeah, the gorgon's chain giving EW is nice, but you can still ignore FNP with anything that causes instant death. In this case S10, S, and/or force activated weaponry.
Edit - the Ork LOL icon replacing S: D when typed unspaced is actually quite hilarious.
Yeah so he is EW, so he is only gonna take one wound. Of course he could just LOS it to someone else in the squad, or jink and take a 4+ cover save, or take his 3++ invunerable save.
IE he fares fare better against the demolisher cannon than the LR will against his thunder hammer.
casvalremdeikun wrote: If I had the money, I would run a very fluffy Unbound army using Pedro Kantor and a bunch of Sternguard squads. The fact Pedro makes them ObSec mitigates one of the major drawbacks of Unbound (the biggest being people hate it and ban it). If I could figure out a way to do this without going unbound, I would buy like ten boxes of Sternguard without a thought.
Would that actually work? Huh, if it does, it'll be a nice way to put together a real Deathwatch force without having to take tax units that don't fit the theme; Pedro, Libby, 2 or 3 Sternguard squads, maybe a dread or two - noice. Essentially no downside from being unbound, since Pedro's trait is fixed anyway and the SG get obsec from him.
casvalremdeikun wrote: If I had the money, I would run a very fluffy Unbound army using Pedro Kantor and a bunch of Sternguard squads. The fact Pedro makes them ObSec mitigates one of the major drawbacks of Unbound (the biggest being people hate it and ban it). If I could figure out a way to do this without going unbound, I would buy like ten boxes of Sternguard without a thought.
Would that actually work? Huh, if it does, it'll be a nice way to put together a real Deathwatch force without having to take tax units that don't fit the theme; Pedro, Libby, 2 or 3 Sternguard squads, maybe a dread or two - noice. Essentially no downside from being unbound, since Pedro's trait is fixed anyway and the SG get obsec from him.
Yes it does. His rule gives all Sternguard in his Detachment ObSec. So running Pedro Kantor with like five squads of Sternguard is doable and has the benefits of a Battleforged army. Hilarious side effect of his ability. Maybe even intended.
In Unbound, every model that is the same faction as your Warlord (in this case Pedro) is part of you Primary Detachment. So yes, it does have Detachments, just not quite the same way as Battleforged.
casvalremdeikun wrote: If I had the money, I would run a very fluffy Unbound army using Pedro Kantor and a bunch of Sternguard squads. The fact Pedro makes them ObSec mitigates one of the major drawbacks of Unbound (the biggest being people hate it and ban it). If I could figure out a way to do this without going unbound, I would buy like ten boxes of Sternguard without a thought.
Would that actually work? Huh, if it does, it'll be a nice way to put together a real Deathwatch force without having to take tax units that don't fit the theme; Pedro, Libby, 2 or 3 Sternguard squads, maybe a dread or two - noice. Essentially no downside from being unbound, since Pedro's trait is fixed anyway and the SG get obsec from him.
But can you? Unbound counts a detachment but gets no command benefits. Is hold the line a command benefit? Some say yes, some say no. Sure is a commandER benefit.
But on the subject: Think what you can do battleforged now. With the gladius detachment you could get a Demi-company led by a chaplain. Take the mandatory auxiliary formation as a 1-st company task force and take sternguards. Slap in strikeforce command formation that is only Pedro and BAM! Everything is one detachemt and EVERYONE gets objective secure. (Tactical, Assault, Devastators as command benefit of demi-company, Pedro give objective secure to the remaining Sternguard!)
casvalremdeikun wrote: If I had the money, I would run a very fluffy Unbound army using Pedro Kantor and a bunch of Sternguard squads. The fact Pedro makes them ObSec mitigates one of the major drawbacks of Unbound (the biggest being people hate it and ban it). If I could figure out a way to do this without going unbound, I would buy like ten boxes of Sternguard without a thought.
Would that actually work? Huh, if it does, it'll be a nice way to put together a real Deathwatch force without having to take tax units that don't fit the theme; Pedro, Libby, 2 or 3 Sternguard squads, maybe a dread or two - noice. Essentially no downside from being unbound, since Pedro's trait is fixed anyway and the SG get obsec from him.
But can you? Unbound counts a detachment but gets no command benefits. Is hold the line a command benefit? Some say yes, some say no. Sure is a commandER benefit.
But on the subject: Think what you can do battleforged now. With the gladius detachment you could get a Demi-company led by a chaplain. Take the mandatory auxiliary formation as a 1-st company task force and take sternguards. Slap in strikeforce command formation that is only Pedro and BAM! Everything is one detachemt and EVERYONE gets objective secure. (Tactical, Assault, Devastators as command benefit of demi-company, Pedro give objective secure to the remaining Sternguard!)
Hold the Line is not a Command Benefit. It is a special rule on a character. Command Benefits are tied directly to Detachments. You are right about the Gladius allowing for a whole bunch of ObSec, but it defeats the purpose behind an all-Sternguard army.
casvalremdeikun wrote: If I had the money, I would run a very fluffy Unbound army using Pedro Kantor and a bunch of Sternguard squads. The fact Pedro makes them ObSec mitigates one of the major drawbacks of Unbound (the biggest being people hate it and ban it). If I could figure out a way to do this without going unbound, I would buy like ten boxes of Sternguard without a thought.
Would that actually work? Huh, if it does, it'll be a nice way to put together a real Deathwatch force without having to take tax units that don't fit the theme; Pedro, Libby, 2 or 3 Sternguard squads, maybe a dread or two - noice. Essentially no downside from being unbound, since Pedro's trait is fixed anyway and the SG get obsec from him.
I already made my metal Pedro into a converted DW model because I saw something similar back in 5th ed. I was going to have a small DW force back then... might get back to work on it myself!
Also, after my previous post, I finally got a tracking number for my limited edition... looks like next week it is! :/
Yeah I'll wait until I have 'dex in hand to confirm 100% that the wording supports it working that way, but if so me likey a loty. Always wanted to do a small DW force.
Question: would the new Vanguard Veterans squad be good without jump pack in a land raider riding with Grimaldus or i better stick with honor guard ? what's more cost efficient ?
RedFox wrote: Question: would the new Vanguard Veterans squad be good without jump pack in a land raider riding with Grimaldus or i better stick with honor guard ? what's more cost efficient ?
Well, Honour Guard are 135 pts for five with no upgrades, and they have bolters, bolt pistols, and power weapons. Vanguards are 115 pts for power weapons on everyone. So Vanguards have the edge there, since no one is going to be firing those bolters. Those 20 extra points can give two models a Storm Shield, give one a Relic Blade and a Storm Shield, the list goes on. Honestly, I think this is one of the few instances a VV squad is better than something else. The ability to reroll charge distance is also quite nice. The Honour Guard do have the ability to take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport, which is kinda cool.
RedFox wrote: Question: would the new Vanguard Veterans squad be good without jump pack in a land raider riding with Grimaldus or i better stick with honor guard ? what's more cost efficient ?
The honor guard. Same vet statline, 2+ armor while dropping the vanguard abilities. Multiassaulting with marines doesn't come up that often. Reroll assault is cool admittedly. Power weapon VV's without packs are only a point less. On the upside, you can take some bullet catcher VV's with no gear to make the unit cheaper, but bullet catchers aren't as useful in a unit that is going in a land raider.
The Skyhammer Annihilation Force comprises:
- Two Assault Squads with Jump Packs
- Two Devastator Squads in Drop Pods
And no less than four special rules:
- Shock Deployment: All units in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Instead of using the normal deployment and reserve rules for these units, you can, during deployment, choose whether this Formation will arrive during your first or second turn. The entire Skyhammer Annihilation Force automatically arrives on the turn you choose—no Reserve Rolls are required. Ignore this Formation's Drop Pods for the purposes of the Drop Pod Assault special rule.
- First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.
- Suppressing Fusillade: A unit targeted by a Skyhammer Annihilation Force's Devastator Squad in the Shooting phase must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6, regardless of how many casualties were inflicted. If the test is failed, the enemy unit does not Fall Back, but must immediately Go to Ground. If the test is passed, the enemy unit is unable to fire Overwatch for the rest of the turn.
- Leave No Survivors: Assault Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force can use their Jump Packs in both the Movement phase and the Assault phase. If an Assault Squad from a Skyhammer Annihilation Force charges a unit that has Gone to Ground as a result of the Suppressing Fusillade special rule, that Assault Squad can reroll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls in the ensuring Assault phase.
My immediate impression is - "Whoah. That could be devastating." But the more I think about it, the more I'm unsure. I mean, it's better than the Blood Angels' Angel's Fury Alpha Strike detachment as there's no real tax to be had here. But will a 10-man SM Assault Squad really get the job done? Will it do what you need it to do?
Gotta push those kits, I guess. This formation is a good way to get a bunch of squads of Grav Devs down field. Drop your two pods from this formation, then choose to drop MORE Grav Devs from your primary force. The fact the ASM can charge the turn they arrive is nice. I dunno, this formation has a lot going for it, but I don't know if it is realy worth it.
Well, two sets of four Grav cannons is 40 Grav shots the turn they drop. Devastator doctrine on top of that, means that two units are going to die hard. Follow that up with an assault marine charge...
2 5man dev squads with gravs and pods are 490 points. 2 assault squads with all of the trimmings total 520 pts (2 flamers, 2 eviscerators, power weapon on sergeant, melta bomb, veteran upgrade)
1010 points, and you can easily shave a bunch if you don't take the eviscerators or the veteran upgrades. Heck, dropping those would make it 890.
Heck, just run the assault squads with chainswords and bolt pistols and it is 850 even. 1000 points left to buy Grav centurions in a pod, Tigurius, outflanking scouts, or Draigo/Tigurius/gk Libby/centurions and scout/strike squad tax.
I... I might pick that formation up. Jesus. 55 Grav Cannon shots in an opponents face turn one. With the added podturions, that is.
Crazyterran wrote: 55 Grav Cannon shots in an opponents face turn one. With the added podturions, that is.
Also, merry marinemas, brothers.
Good lord! Though, in reality, what exactly are you going to be able to take down with that if you don't have split fire on the devs? Two big things? Obviously the Dev Cents don't have that problem.
Crazyterran wrote: 55 Grav Cannon shots in an opponents face turn one. With the added podturions, that is.
Also, merry marinemas, brothers.
Good lord! Though, in reality, what exactly are you going to be able to take down with that if you don't have split fire on the devs? Two big things? Obviously the Dev Cents don't have that problem.
2 things from those devastaors, 1-2 things from the pod centurions, then whatever damage the assault squad wrecks with essentially 4 attacks on the charge, re rolling to hit and to wound. (1 base, 1 ccw, 1 charge, 1 hammer of wrath).*
If whatever you hit with 20-40 Grav shots survives. Like you are playing orks or daemons or something.
Just had a look at the Dev box contents on bitsandkits.co.uk and have to say I'm a bit disappointed. The lensed helmets had me really excited, but they all look off. Overloaded and poorly designed/scaled. Bare heads are dreadful.The torsos are decidedly meh and I'm not even that impressed by the legs anymore.
Got some Assault bits from the same site through the post today and while most of those are more satisfying, the legs are crushingly disappointing. Poseable? Pah. It's nice to have some new legs in motion, but to claim they are poseable is misleadeding at best.
The Skyhammer Annihilation Force comprises:
- Two Assault Squads with Jump Packs
- Two Devastator Squads in Drop Pods
And no less than four special rules:
- Shock Deployment: All units in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force start the game in Deep Strike Reserve. Instead of using the normal deployment and reserve rules for these units, you can, during deployment, choose whether this Formation will arrive during your first or second turn. The entire Skyhammer Annihilation Force automatically arrives on the turn you choose—no Reserve Rolls are required. Ignore this Formation's Drop Pods for the purposes of the Drop Pod Assault special rule.
- First the Fire, then the Blade: On the turn they arrive from Deep Strike Reserve, the Devastator Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force have the Relentless special rule and the Assault Squads can charge even though they arrived from Reserves that turn.
- Suppressing Fusillade: A unit targeted by a Skyhammer Annihilation Force's Devastator Squad in the Shooting phase must take a Morale test at the end of the phase on 3D6, regardless of how many casualties were inflicted. If the test is failed, the enemy unit does not Fall Back, but must immediately Go to Ground. If the test is passed, the enemy unit is unable to fire Overwatch for the rest of the turn.
- Leave No Survivors: Assault Squads in a Skyhammer Annihilation Force can use their Jump Packs in both the Movement phase and the Assault phase. If an Assault Squad from a Skyhammer Annihilation Force charges a unit that has Gone to Ground as a result of the Suppressing Fusillade special rule, that Assault Squad can reroll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls in the ensuring Assault phase.
My immediate impression is - "Whoah. That could be devastating." But the more I think about it, the more I'm unsure. I mean, it's better than the Blood Angels' Angel's Fury Alpha Strike detachment as there's no real tax to be had here. But will a 10-man SM Assault Squad really get the job done? Will it do what you need it to do?
It's not about getting the job done, its about crippling your enemy. You dont need to kill a unit for that. Now you can lock an enemy unit in CC from turn 1, before they are able to shoot a single shot (except overwatch maybe).. Thats brutal. Just pick your enemies best shooty bits and shut them down for some turns until the real CC experts arrive. Everything else that might help them out to get free will be taken on by the devastors. Droppods where unbalanced (too cheap) without this special rules. Now they are just silly.
If your interested in fluffy battles, this formation might be nice, but for regular games is just another OP-formation-nonsense. I think GW has finally found the final nail in the coffin for competitive 40k ---> formations
I really dislike crippling alpha strikes... Where's the fun in half your army being gone before you get to do anything? I'm glad no one in my group runs those kinds of lists.
sockwithaticket wrote: Just had a look at the Dev box contents on bitsandkits.co.uk and have to say I'm a bit disappointed. The lensed helmets had me really excited, but they all look off. Overloaded and poorly designed/scaled. Bare heads are dreadful.The torsos are decidedly meh and I'm not even that impressed by the legs anymore.
Got some Assault bits from the same site through the post today and while most of those are more satisfying, the legs are crushingly disappointing. Poseable? Pah. It's nice to have some new legs in motion, but to claim they are poseable is misleadeding at best.
The ASM legs are posable -- just cut off the guide tab, just like the marshmallow robot.
I don't know what you mean with the devastators. You get awesome torsos, legs, chests and helmets. I think the targeting reticle a were great. It's cool, too, that you get 7 front torsos and 6 legs
sockwithaticket wrote: Just had a look at the Dev box contents on bitsandkits.co.uk and have to say I'm a bit disappointed. The lensed helmets had me really excited, but they all look off. Overloaded and poorly designed/scaled. Bare heads are dreadful.The torsos are decidedly meh and I'm not even that impressed by the legs anymore.
Got some Assault bits from the same site through the post today and while most of those are more satisfying, the legs are crushingly disappointing. Poseable? Pah. It's nice to have some new legs in motion, but to claim they are poseable is misleadeding at best.
The ASM legs are posable -- just cut off the guide tab, just like the marshmallow robot.
I don't know what you mean with the devastators. You get awesome torsos, legs, chests and helmets. I think the targeting reticle a were great. It's cool, too, that you get 7 front torsos and 6 legs
I've already done that and, sure, you can rotate the leg you're attaching, but if a realistic/practical pose is your goal you really can't deviate much from the intended positioning. At least that's my impression after half an hour of mucking around with them. In fact I've found you need to remove the guide tab to normalise a couple of the stock poses, just little rotations, but entirely necessary if they're to look right.
Regarding the devastators I think the targetting reticules were a good idea poorly executed. Many of the primary lenses look far too large and there are too many of them. I like most of the current targetter heads as they usually have one sensibly sized lens, perhaps one smaller secondary one and what seems to be a laser tracer, practical and uncluttered. I know I can keep using them rather than these, but it's always nice to find a little more variety. The only torso in that bunch that makes me go 'I must have that in my army' is the Mk. VIII one.
That Skyhammer Skyhammer Annihilation Force bundle with formation rules is the closest thing to "day 1 DLC" we will get.
Looks nice tho.
Could read some of it, seems like they have a special rule named “First The Fire, Then The Blades”
Devastators get relentless the turn they arrive in the drop pods and Assault marines may charge the turn they arrive from Deep Strike.
Also is a rule that looks like it's called “Leave No Survivors”
Could only get some of it from the low res picture on GW page. Get is as Assault Marines can jump both in movement and in assault.
WindsOfFury wrote: That Skyhammer Skyhammer Annihilation Force bundle with formation rules is the closest thing to "day 1 DLC" we will get.
Looks nice tho.
Could read some of it, seems like they have a special rule named “First The Fire, Then The Blades”
Devastators get relentless the turn they arrive in the drop pods and Assault marines may charge the turn they arrive from Deep Strike.
Also is a rule that looks like it's called “Leave No Survivors”
Could only get some of it from the low res picture on GW page. Get is as Assault Marines can jump both in movement and in assault.
Just look further up the page. Sounds a bit ridiculous to me, the only other formation I can think of which allows drop pod + assault is the Khorne Berzerker and Kharybdis blood something. But given the price of the Kharybdis, and the fact you have to take a 20 man squad of Berzerkers, it just doesn't seem very efficient.
My Deathwing terminators aren't too impressed with that formation since that' pretty much what we should be doing. I guess it does leave me some hope that the DA codex will have some good detachments.
Since I posted that, I've been giving some though to what you could do with it. Sure, everyone's high on Grav Devs right now, but what about taking advantage of Relentless and dropping MMDevs? Make 'em Imperial Fists. Want to kill a Knight or two first turn? Combat squad them for taking out a higher number of transports and/or light tanks. Run them as Salamanders with Vulkan to twin-link those MM's. Run it in a Raptors army with Lias Issodon so you get the first strike with those, plus Issodon hitting units prior to Turn 1.
It also got me thinking, not only is this a good ruse for GW to sell Dev Squads. It's also a good way to sell Stalkers and other Interceptor models.
Death By Monkeys wrote: Since I posted that, I've been giving some though to what you could do with it. Sure, everyone's high on Grav Devs right now, but what about taking advantage of Relentless and dropping MMDevs? Make 'em Imperial Fists. Want to kill a Knight or two first turn? Combat squad them for taking out a higher number of transports and/or light tanks. Run them as Salamanders with Vulkan to twin-link those MM's. Run it in a Raptors army with Lias Issodon so you get the first strike with those, plus Issodon hitting units prior to Turn 1.
It also got me thinking, not only is this a good ruse for GW to sell Dev Squads. It's also a good way to sell Stalkers and other Interceptor models.
Yeah, I think the key here is you can get this REALLY Cheap.
5 Devs 70 + Drop Pod 35 - 105 5 Devs 70 + Drop Pod 35 - 105 5 Assault Squad with Flamer and MB - 80 5 Assault Squad with Flamer and MB - 80 370 Points before Heavy Weapons. This is the new version of the firebase support cadre.
I could easily slot this into either my SW Pod army or my SOB army without a problem. What're the cheap heavies? MM for 10 a pop? 450?
That formation is really too much, to be honest. I'd put it up right up there with webway D-sycthes...whatever you point it at will die, with virtually no defenses. I'd feel bad about playing it.
Colpicklejar wrote: That formation is really too much, to be honest. I'd put it up right up there with webway D-sycthes...whatever you point it at will die, with virtually no defenses. I'd feel bad about playing it.
Actually, it's worse if you don't annihilate just one thing.
With MM on the Devs, you nuke two big things. Then you assault two other things to tie them up during turn one while the rest of your stuff spreads out. Just shut down 4 units on turn 1.
Death By Monkeys wrote: Since I posted that, I've been giving some though to what you could do with it. Sure, everyone's high on Grav Devs right now, but what about taking advantage of Relentless and dropping MMDevs? Make 'em Imperial Fists. Want to kill a Knight or two first turn? Combat squad them for taking out a higher number of transports and/or light tanks. Run them as Salamanders with Vulkan to twin-link those MM's. Run it in a Raptors army with Lias Issodon so you get the first strike with those, plus Issodon hitting units prior to Turn 1.
It also got me thinking, not only is this a good ruse for GW to sell Dev Squads. It's also a good way to sell Stalkers and other Interceptor models.
Yeah, I think the key here is you can get this REALLY Cheap.
5 Devs 70 + Drop Pod 35 - 105
5 Devs 70 + Drop Pod 35 - 105
5 Assault Squad with Flamer and MB - 80
5 Assault Squad with Flamer and MB - 80
370 Points before Heavy Weapons. This is the new version of the firebase support cadre.
I could easily slot this into either my SW Pod army or my SOB army without a problem. What're the cheap heavies? MM for 10 a pop? 450?
There's some text in the restrictions box. I'd guess squads will have to be 10 strong to go with the stuff you'd actually buy in the bundle.
Colpicklejar wrote: That formation is really too much, to be honest. I'd put it up right up there with webway D-sycthes...whatever you point it at will die, with virtually no defenses. I'd feel bad about playing it.
Actually, it's worse if you don't annihilate just one thing.
With MM on the Devs, you nuke two big things. Then you assault two other things to tie them up during turn one while the rest of your stuff spreads out. Just shut down 4 units on turn 1.
Very true. I dub this formation Excommunicate Cheesetoris
Colpicklejar wrote: That formation is really too much, to be honest. I'd put it up right up there with webway D-sycthes...whatever you point it at will die, with virtually no defenses. I'd feel bad about playing it.
The way formations are going, I think the next few years are going to be all about building and painting, and not so much playing.
My immediate impression is - "Whoah. That could be devastating." But the more I think about it, the more I'm unsure. I mean, it's better than the Blood Angels' Angel's Fury Alpha Strike detachment as there's no real tax to be had here. But will a 10-man SM Assault Squad really get the job done? Will it do what you need it to do?
The formation is just two assault squads with jump packs and two dev squads in pods.
There's no restriction to the number... or which battle brothers join the jump pack marines and pods.
Every single angry, smashy IC in the Imperium of Man just got the perfect turn one assault delivery system.
You could even put IG priests in there to give them re-rollable saves in CC.
GW in one fell swoop granted the wish of every competitive Marine player.
Behold, the age of the Assault Squad. Never did I think I'd see this day come.
So Smashfether in Terminator Armour can now join that formation and, as he's part of the Assault Squad for all rules purposes, he's allowed to assault turn 1?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So Smashfether in Terminator Armour can now join that formation and, as he's part of the Assault Squad for all rules purposes, he's allowed to assault turn 1?
Yes, but unlike the Assault Squad he can't use his Terminator armour to move, so he might not be able to fight in combat while the rest of the assault squad conga-lines to keep in coherency when they charge if they scatter too far.
Yes, they can move after they deep strike with their jump packs.
Yes, they can re-roll charge distance with their jump packs when they charge.
And yes, they still can get to you if they scatter 12".
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So Smashfether in Terminator Armour can now join that formation and, as he's part of the Assault Squad for all rules purposes, he's allowed to assault turn 1?
Yes, but unlike the Assault Squad he can't use his Terminator armour to move, so he might not be able to fight in combat while the rest of the assault squad conga-lines to keep in coherency when they charge if they scatter too far.
Yes, they can move after they deep strike with their jump packs.
Yes, they can re-roll charge distance with their jump packs when they charge.
And yes, they still can get to you if they scatter 12".
Just realized that Jump Packs is a thing for HQs too. Now I feel silly.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So Smashfether in Terminator Armour can now join that formation and, as he's part of the Assault Squad for all rules purposes, he's allowed to assault turn 1?
Yes, but unlike the Assault Squad he can't use his Terminator armour to move, so he might not be able to fight in combat while the rest of the assault squad conga-lines to keep in coherency when they charge if they scatter too far.
Yes, they can move after they deep strike with their jump packs.
Yes, they can re-roll charge distance with their jump packs when they charge.
And yes, they still can get to you if they scatter 12".
Oh, feth, I didn't think of that. This formation is ludicrous. You can pick a very expensive shooting unit and shoot at them with grav cannons. Not dead? Take a pinning test. Failed? Well, you've gone to ground. Pass? You're going to be ripped apart by [MOD EDIT - Language! And ultimately you're responsible for the content of your posts - don't count on the expeltive filter to catch everything, because it doesn't! Alpharius] and the assault marines, and you can't even overwatch against them.
What is with this absurd obsession with the past and this mythical 'correct' way 40k is meant to be played?
If you like playing 5th or 4th or 3rd edition, go find people to play it with you. It's a lot cheaper.
Change is good. It keeps the game interesting. It forces the meta to change. It forces new strategies and armies and ideas.
If you want a balanced ruleset with finely tuned, periodic competitive tweaks switch to X-Wing or Armada or League of Legends.
40k is what it is. A constantly evolving, multi-headed hydra of absurdity, a sprawling meta-game of arcane knowledge as confusing, eldritch and byzantine as the universe in which it is set.
Like life in the Imperium of Man, Two things are certain: 40k is going to be unfair. And GW is vastly uncaring.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: What is with this absurd obsession with the past and this mythical way 40k is meant to be played?
If you like playing 5th or 4th or 3rd edition, go find people to play it with you. It's a lot cheaper.
Change is good. It keeps the game interesting. It forces the meta to change. It forces new strategies and armies and ideas.
If you want a balanced ruleset with finely tuned, periodic competitive tweaks switch to X-Wing or Armada or League of Legends.
40k is what it is. A constantly evolving, multi-headed hydra of absurdity, a sprawling meta-game of arcane knowledge as confusing, eldritch and byzantine as the Imperium of Man in which it is set.
Change is good, but that doesn't mean that GW needs to bring out formations allowing marine players to table you turn 1. Seriously, a list with multiple copies of this formation would be horrible. Thank goodness most places don't allow more than 1 copy of each.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: What is with this absurd obsession with the past and this mythical way 40k is meant to be played?
If you like playing 5th or 4th or 3rd edition, go find people to play it with you. It's a lot cheaper.
Change is good. It keeps the game interesting. It forces the meta to change. It forces new strategies and armies and ideas.
If you want a balanced ruleset with finely tuned, periodic competitive tweaks switch to X-Wing or Armada or League of Legends.
40k is what it is. A constantly evolving, multi-headed hydra of absurdity, a sprawling meta-game of arcane knowledge as confusing, eldritch and byzantine as the Imperium of Man in which it is set.
This post should be added in large type to this site's banner forever.
40k has always sucked as a game. We as players just assumed GW was incompetent at rules design. So people griped but continued to play. Now GW is just phoning it in with bad decision making to move product. The short term gain mentality will kill 40k. How many people are going to invest in a game when the outcome is determined at army purchase? Why invest my time and money in a game that really isn't a game anymore?
All his post is a another variation of shut up and GTFO.
What's so delusional about acknowledging the reality of what 40k is?
You and I know it's not going to change or could ever be the perfectly accurate and balanced grimdark wargame that so many fans imagine it deserves to be.
Why not accept it for what it is and enjoy it?
I also realise it's a form of schadenfreude to constantly hate on the game and GW while continuing to play it. It releases stress, beats an uncaring strawman, no one gets
hurt or annoyed except other forum goers. Negativity has its purposes too at times, but only when logically directed.
All his post is a another variation of shut up and GTFO.
What's so delusional about acknowledging the reality of what 40k is?
A largely unbalanced piece of junk? Not to say you can't have fun with it, mind you. It's still undeniably bad.
You and I know it's not going to change or could ever be the perfectly accurate and balanced grimdark wargame that so many fans imagine it deserves to be.
I guess it's because people still care. That's why they complain.
The moment people stop caring is the true breaking point. Once they don't complain about it anymore, they are truly lost to GW.
Why not accept it for what it is and enjoy it?
I didn't enjoy the game evolved and so I stopped playing in early 5th. "But Korraz, why don't you just find people that play 4th or 3rd if that's what you liked?" Because there aren't any around and it's too much work to build a new group or locate the few oddballs scattered about. I simply do not care enough, I prefer to spend my time with things that are more fun to me.
People need to realize that while someone is still complaining, he still cares. Things can still turn around and GW can become the champion of hearts again while people still care enough about them to voice their opinion. Demanding silence is practically calling for GW's demise to come even quicker.
Delakar wrote: A new Codex already? Oh, piss off. Money grubbing leeches.
Played the game since 3rd edition. People used to complain constantly about how long it took to update codexs. Now people complain about how quickly they do it. Can't make everyone happy. I don't see it as expensive at all, but I only play a few different armies, one of whom is all but forgotten by GW (SOB) and I'd love if they got updates they my other armies (DA/SM and Eldar) did. Sure, I could easily criticize the way they go about things, but I don't mind them updating books every 2 years one single bit.
Yes. Ork players used to complain. Dark Eldar players used to complain, Sisters of Battle players complain. Because they waited 13 years for a new book.
Space Marine players, however, did not. At least not about the frequency. No Space Marine player said "Gee, I'd sure like to have a new book for 40-50 bucks every two years!"
Korraz wrote: Yes. Ork players used to complain. Dark Eldar players used to complain, Sisters of Battle players complain. Because they waited 13 years for a new book.
Space Marine players, however, did not. At least not about the frequency. No Space Marine player said "Gee, I'd sure like to have a new book for 40-50 bucks every two years!"
I've had a SM army for over 17 years. I've heard plenty of complaining in that time. Guess I, and the people around me, just don't see 40-50 dollars every 2 years as significant in any way. Different player bases I guess. Not putting down anyone who feels differently, just saying that there's people who obviously feel differently on the matter.
All his post is a another variation of shut up and GTFO.
What's so delusional about acknowledging the reality of what 40k is?
A largely unbalanced piece of junk? Not to say you can't have fun with it, mind you. It's still undeniably bad.
You and I know it's not going to change or could ever be the perfectly accurate and balanced grimdark wargame that so many fans imagine it deserves to be.
I guess it's because people still care. That's why they complain.
The moment people stop caring is the true breaking point. Once they don't complain about it anymore, they are truly lost to GW.
Why not accept it for what it is and enjoy it?
I didn't enjoy the game evolved and so I stopped playing in early 5th. "But Korraz, why don't you just find people that play 4th or 3rd if that's what you liked?" Because there aren't any around and it's too much work to build a new group or locate the few oddballs scattered about. I simply do not care enough, I prefer to spend my time with things that are more fun to me.
People need to realize that while someone is still complaining, he still cares. Things can still turn around and GW can become the champion of hearts again while people still care enough about them to voice their opinion. Demanding silence is practically calling for GW's demise to come even quicker.
Well said. The response I was typing out was far more emotional and less well thought out than Korraz's.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So Smashfether in Terminator Armour can now join that formation and, as he's part of the Assault Squad for all rules purposes, he's allowed to assault turn 1?
"Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit."
All the fancy stuff surrounding the formation are special rules.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: What is with this absurd obsession with the past and this mythical 'correct' way 40k is meant to be played?
If you like playing 5th or 4th or 3rd edition, go find people to play it with you. It's a lot cheaper.
Change is good. It keeps the game interesting. It forces the meta to change. It forces new strategies and armies and ideas.
If you want a balanced ruleset with finely tuned, periodic competitive tweaks switch to X-Wing or Armada or League of Legends.
40k is what it is. A constantly evolving, multi-headed hydra of absurdity, a sprawling meta-game of arcane knowledge as confusing, eldritch and byzantine as the universe in which it is set.
Like life in the Imperium of Man, Two things are certain: 40k is going to be unfair. And GW is vastly uncaring.
This is a nail and you hit it on the head! Great quote Asmodai Asmodean.. And the right attitude to have. I play the game to have fun, and I love all of the different formations. That being said if I play a power hungry D*ck, I will gladly inform them at the end of the game. And the next time they come around for a game I will let them know I can pass on "their version of 40k/ aka the right way to play".
So you'll confront someone for playing by the rules?
Because that, despite what you may have intended to say, is what you've said.
There should never be this sort of discussion in relation to the game, the difference between competitive and casual should largely be down to attitude, not army choice.
Korraz has the right of it - people complain because they care, taking the stance of "suck it up or feth off" that people agreeing with that post are taking is fine, but don't expect much sympathy when you're complaining that you can't find anyone to play your multi-headed hydra of absurdity.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So Smashfether in Terminator Armour can now join that formation and, as he's part of the Assault Squad for all rules purposes, he's allowed to assault turn 1?
Yes, but unlike the Assault Squad he can't use his Terminator armour to move, so he might not be able to fight in combat while the rest of the assault squad conga-lines to keep in coherency when they charge if they scatter too far.
Yes, they can move after they deep strike with their jump packs.
Yes, they can re-roll charge distance with their jump packs when they charge.
And yes, they still can get to you if they scatter 12".
Emphasis mine. The deep strike rule states a model cannot move further (except run moves). The formation allows them to charge only. The formation does allows them to use the jump packs in the subsequent movement and assault phases (similar to RG chapter tactics) instead of one or the other.
Death By Monkeys wrote: Since I posted that, I've been giving some though to what you could do with it. Sure, everyone's high on Grav Devs right now, but what about taking advantage of Relentless and dropping MMDevs? Make 'em Imperial Fists. Want to kill a Knight or two first turn? Combat squad them for taking out a higher number of transports and/or light tanks. Run them as Salamanders with Vulkan to twin-link those MM's. Run it in a Raptors army with Lias Issodon so you get the first strike with those, plus Issodon hitting units prior to Turn 1.
It also got me thinking, not only is this a good ruse for GW to sell Dev Squads. It's also a good way to sell Stalkers and other Interceptor models.
You can't get Vulkans buff for this formation. His special rule only apply to his Detachment and there is now way to get him in the same Detachment and the Gladius Detachment is locked to only the formations in the codex.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So Smashfether in Terminator Armour can now join that formation and, as he's part of the Assault Squad for all rules purposes, he's allowed to assault turn 1?
Yes, but unlike the Assault Squad he can't use his Terminator armour to move, so he might not be able to fight in combat while the rest of the assault squad conga-lines to keep in coherency when they charge if they scatter too far.
Yes, they can move after they deep strike with their jump packs.
Yes, they can re-roll charge distance with their jump packs when they charge.
And yes, they still can get to you if they scatter 12".
Oh, feth, I didn't think of that. This formation is ludicrous. You can pick a very expensive shooting unit and shoot at them with grav cannons. Not dead? Take a pinning test. Failed? Well, you've gone to ground. Pass? You're going to be ripped apart by smashfucker and the assault marines, and you can't even overwatch against them.
Also, let's not forget that you can combat squad the devastators, so you can shoot all the big guns at something you really want dead, and then shoot all the bolter marines at something you want pinned. That's four units either dead or pinned (with even LD 10 failing 50% of the time).
Death By Monkeys wrote: Since I posted that, I've been giving some though to what you could do with it. Sure, everyone's high on Grav Devs right now, but what about taking advantage of Relentless and dropping MMDevs? Make 'em Imperial Fists. Want to kill a Knight or two first turn? Combat squad them for taking out a higher number of transports and/or light tanks. Run them as Salamanders with Vulkan to twin-link those MM's. Run it in a Raptors army with Lias Issodon so you get the first strike with those, plus Issodon hitting units prior to Turn 1.
It also got me thinking, not only is this a good ruse for GW to sell Dev Squads. It's also a good way to sell Stalkers and other Interceptor models.
You can't get Vulkans buff for this formation. His special rule only apply to his Detachment and there is now way to get him in the same Detachment and the Gladius Detachment is locked to only the formations in the codex.
Yup, that is a major bummer. The codex explicitly states only the datasheets listed in the book can be used in the Gladius Strike Force. Kinda lame, but thems the brakes.
angelofvengeance wrote: Yeah- though I suppose you could take a dremel bore bit and grind his head out to pop a different one in? Maybe even a Terminator helmet perhaps?
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: What is with this absurd obsession with the past and this mythical 'correct' way 40k is meant to be played?
If you like playing 5th or 4th or 3rd edition, go find people to play it with you. It's a lot cheaper.
Change is good. It keeps the game interesting. It forces the meta to change. It forces new strategies and armies and ideas.
If you want a balanced ruleset with finely tuned, periodic competitive tweaks switch to X-Wing or Armada or League of Legends.
40k is what it is. A constantly evolving, multi-headed hydra of absurdity, a sprawling meta-game of arcane knowledge as confusing, eldritch and byzantine as the universe in which it is set.
Like life in the Imperium of Man, Two things are certain: 40k is going to be unfair. And GW is vastly uncaring.
Perfect! Lol
I agree that change is good, keeps things from stagnating. Yet change for the sake of change, with no foresight or planning? It's just a cash cow for some old men now, and we can either wear our pants in silly places or we can adapt the slurry of confusion to suit our wants.
Or, you know, hold the company accountable for the quality of it's product. If you bought a coffee table and it turned out that the coffee table was unable to hold coffee cups, you'd be driving back to Ikea, not tearing apart your cupboards to make shims.
My RG army has borrowed heavily from the Dark Angels in terms of bits and such, they kinda have a bling problem. That chappie would fit in nicely with a bit of modification...
But I already have a chaplain in that army so, an extra one would be... extraneous?
angelofvengeance wrote: Codex is out now anyways so we can probably lock this thread and carry on the various discussions elsewhere??
We are still getting new stuff, apparently.
Dark Angels are getting new stuff, not Space Marines.
The last bit of Space Marines stuff(Librarian in Terminator Armor and the Ultramarines painting guide) went up for preorder today.
We also received an unannounced new formation.
"Unannounced" means "not in White Dwarf or leaked by independents", right?
And there's nothing to talk about with the Skyhammer formation in this thread. There is a thread dedicated to the formation elsewhere.
Oh I know. This one is pretty well done. Codex is out. Disappointing Librarian(no ability to replace the head!) is coming next week. Not anything new to talk about. ON TO THE DARK ANGEL THREAD!
I share a few similar experiences, but I must say that my experiences playing more than 7 pods is very limited, because that's not the kind of game or style I like. But anyhow, drop pods are a army that have the potential to win in a wide variety of games, and I think that most of us can agree that Gladius Company gives pod armies more potential than a 
Or Limited?
