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 Revarien wrote:
So if I pre-ordered the special edition, will it come today by post or tomorrow while I'm wanting to play games, lol.

(in the states)

You'll get it sometime next week, if the previous releases are any prediction.

 kronk wrote:

 Revarien wrote:
So if I pre-ordered the special edition, will it come today by post or tomorrow while I'm wanting to play games, lol.

(in the states)

You'll get it sometime next week, if the previous releases are any prediction.

yeah... that's what I figured. Oh well. :/

I don't trust sending it to a store - only to be accidentally sold off or something random like that.

 Revarien wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Revarien wrote:
So if I pre-ordered the special edition, will it come today by post or tomorrow while I'm wanting to play games, lol.

(in the states)

You'll get it sometime next week, if the previous releases are any prediction.

yeah... that's what I figured. Oh well. :/

I don't trust sending it to a store - only to be accidentally sold off or something random like that.

Just for future reference, when having stuff sent to a Games Workshop store--they aren't supposed to ever put preordered(or even any direct-ordered) items on the shelves to sell.

Individual preorders, especially for items like the Collector Edition books, come in their own shipping boxes with an invoice and everything so there's no real chance for it to "accidentally" get sold off.

So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.

Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...

Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?

"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."

Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....

I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....

S8 can still instant kill him away.
Melta his face!

fidel wrote:
So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.

Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...

Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?

"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."

Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....

I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....

Captain, meet Thunder Hammer. Thunder Hammer, Captain.

fidel wrote:
So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.

Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...

Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?

"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."

Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....

I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....

Yeah it looks like RAW the guy is immune to anything that doesn't cause instant death. Toss him on a Bike, and suddenly only s10 and sD weapons can hurt him at all. Every other wound regardless of pass/fail on armor/invuln saves would pass it's 1+ FNP roll.

However i doubt any TO's would let people play it that way, I'd count on seeing it house-ruled everywhere that 1 always fails even on FNP rolls. not RAW, but to do otherwise seriously breaks the game. Well, for that one Chapter Master at least.

Edit: double post.

I would agree with you on the RAW, however I am pretty sure in the rule book they have already stated that a roll of a 1 is always a natural fail in these circumstances.... hence the BS 6+ chart.

I think people may be theorying too hard on the vanguard vs. honor guard-- Who, outside of when they're free like in that BA formation, completely loads out their squads with power weapons (i.e. the price per guy is inflated)? Also, is artificer armor that much better than some storm shields when going up against whatever you want a ton of power weapons to take down? And then there's general customization like a smattering of higher power weapons or being able to avoid the cost of one more assault transport/more chances to get shot up waiting to get to melee.

And then there's always just vastly more reliable charges. A re-roll per die pushes the average up by around 2, probably more.

I'm not saying Vanguard are world killers, but think "another squad can spam basic power weapons better" isn't damning when they can do other things than that.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
I think people may be theorying too hard on the vanguard vs. honor guard-- Who, outside of when they're free like in that BA formation, completely loads out their squads with power weapons (i.e. the price per guy is inflated)? Also, is artificer armor that much better than some storm shields when going up against whatever you want a ton of power weapons to take down? And then there's general customization like a smattering of higher power weapons or being able to avoid the cost of one more assault transport/more chances to get shot up waiting to get to melee.

And then there's always just vastly more reliable charges. A re-roll per die pushes the average up by around 2, probably more.

I'm not saying Vanguard are world killers, but think "another squad can spam basic power weapons better" isn't damning when they can do other things than that.

True, but a 2+ armour save is 50% better if the enemy doesn't have AP3 weapons, and if they have AP3 weapons, but not AP2...

Also, if they're shot at for whatever reason, Honour Guard will do better.

 -Shrike- wrote:

fidel wrote:
So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.

Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...

Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?

"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."

Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....

I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....

Captain, meet Thunder Hammer. Thunder Hammer, Captain.

Toss him on a bike.... Lol toughness 5!

Doesn't he also get eternal warrior from Gorgons chain?

fidel wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:

fidel wrote:
So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.

Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...

Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?

"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."

Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....

I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....

Captain, meet Thunder Hammer. Thunder Hammer, Captain.

Toss him on a bike.... Lol toughness 5!

Doesn't he also get eternal warrior from Gorgons chain?

I'll introduce him to a Demolisher Cannon, then. Even if it does, I'm pretty sure being subject to ID prevents you from taking FNP? I'm not sure about that one.

 -Shrike- wrote:

fidel wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:

fidel wrote:
So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.

Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...

Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?

"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."

Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....

I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....

Captain, meet Thunder Hammer. Thunder Hammer, Captain.

Toss him on a bike.... Lol toughness 5!

Doesn't he also get eternal warrior from Gorgons chain?

I'll introduce him to a Demolisher Cannon, then. Even if it does, I'm pretty sure being subject to ID prevents you from taking FNP? I'm not sure about that one.

Eternal Warrior states that any wound that would cause instant death only removes 1 instead. Feel No Pain also states that ID ignores it, even if the model has EW. So yeah, the gorgon's chain giving EW is nice, but you can still ignore FNP with anything that causes instant death. In this case S10, S, and/or force activated weaponry.

Edit - the Ork LOL icon replacing S: D when typed unspaced is actually quite hilarious.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:

fidel wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:

fidel wrote:
So I just read this and I wanted to see what you guys though.

Apparently the Iron hands HQ can get a +1 FNP and now be invulnerable...

Essentially he gets +1 from chapter tactics, +1 from gorgons, and +1 if he rolls on command trait. If you pop that squad with endurance (4+ FNP) he now has a 1+ FNP - which literally makes him untouchable to all but weaponry no?

"...no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."

Straight from the rule book, under Maximum Save. And FNP isn't a save....

I would never play it like this - but technically RAW.... ugh....

Captain, meet Thunder Hammer. Thunder Hammer, Captain.

Toss him on a bike.... Lol toughness 5!

Doesn't he also get eternal warrior from Gorgons chain?

I'll introduce him to a Demolisher Cannon, then. Even if it does, I'm pretty sure being subject to ID prevents you from taking FNP? I'm not sure about that one.

Eternal Warrior states that any wound that would cause instant death only removes 1 instead. Feel No Pain also states that ID ignores it, even if the model has EW. So yeah, the gorgon's chain giving EW is nice, but you can still ignore FNP with anything that causes instant death. In this case S10, S, and/or force activated weaponry.

Edit - the Ork LOL icon replacing S: D when typed unspaced is actually quite hilarious.

Yeah so he is EW, so he is only gonna take one wound. Of course he could just LOS it to someone else in the squad, or jink and take a 4+ cover save, or take his 3++ invunerable save.

IE he fares fare better against the demolisher cannon than the LR will against his thunder hammer.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If I had the money, I would run a very fluffy Unbound army using Pedro Kantor and a bunch of Sternguard squads. The fact Pedro makes them ObSec mitigates one of the major drawbacks of Unbound (the biggest being people hate it and ban it). If I could figure out a way to do this without going unbound, I would buy like ten boxes of Sternguard without a thought.

Would that actually work? Huh, if it does, it'll be a nice way to put together a real Deathwatch force without having to take tax units that don't fit the theme; Pedro, Libby, 2 or 3 Sternguard squads, maybe a dread or two - noice. Essentially no downside from being unbound, since Pedro's trait is fixed anyway and the SG get obsec from him.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If I had the money, I would run a very fluffy Unbound army using Pedro Kantor and a bunch of Sternguard squads. The fact Pedro makes them ObSec mitigates one of the major drawbacks of Unbound (the biggest being people hate it and ban it). If I could figure out a way to do this without going unbound, I would buy like ten boxes of Sternguard without a thought.

Would that actually work? Huh, if it does, it'll be a nice way to put together a real Deathwatch force without having to take tax units that don't fit the theme; Pedro, Libby, 2 or 3 Sternguard squads, maybe a dread or two - noice. Essentially no downside from being unbound, since Pedro's trait is fixed anyway and the SG get obsec from him.

Yes it does. His rule gives all Sternguard in his Detachment ObSec. So running Pedro Kantor with like five squads of Sternguard is doable and has the benefits of a Battleforged army. Hilarious side effect of his ability. Maybe even intended.

Does Unbound have detachments?

Bharring wrote:
Does Unbound have detachments?

Not really. Unbound is field whatever you like so there doesn't have to be any structured army.

Bharring wrote:
Does Unbound have detachments?

In Unbound, every model that is the same faction as your Warlord (in this case Pedro) is part of you Primary Detachment. So yes, it does have Detachments, just not quite the same way as Battleforged.

I'm hoping I get to download mine at the strike of midnight.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If I had the money, I would run a very fluffy Unbound army using Pedro Kantor and a bunch of Sternguard squads. The fact Pedro makes them ObSec mitigates one of the major drawbacks of Unbound (the biggest being people hate it and ban it). If I could figure out a way to do this without going unbound, I would buy like ten boxes of Sternguard without a thought.

Would that actually work? Huh, if it does, it'll be a nice way to put together a real Deathwatch force without having to take tax units that don't fit the theme; Pedro, Libby, 2 or 3 Sternguard squads, maybe a dread or two - noice. Essentially no downside from being unbound, since Pedro's trait is fixed anyway and the SG get obsec from him.

But can you? Unbound counts a detachment but gets no command benefits. Is hold the line a command benefit? Some say yes, some say no. Sure is a commandER benefit.

But on the subject: Think what you can do battleforged now. With the gladius detachment you could get a Demi-company led by a chaplain. Take the mandatory auxiliary formation as a 1-st company task force and take sternguards. Slap in strikeforce command formation that is only Pedro and BAM! Everything is one detachemt and EVERYONE gets objective secure. (Tactical, Assault, Devastators as command benefit of demi-company, Pedro give objective secure to the remaining Sternguard!)

WindsOfFury wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If I had the money, I would run a very fluffy Unbound army using Pedro Kantor and a bunch of Sternguard squads. The fact Pedro makes them ObSec mitigates one of the major drawbacks of Unbound (the biggest being people hate it and ban it). If I could figure out a way to do this without going unbound, I would buy like ten boxes of Sternguard without a thought.

Would that actually work? Huh, if it does, it'll be a nice way to put together a real Deathwatch force without having to take tax units that don't fit the theme; Pedro, Libby, 2 or 3 Sternguard squads, maybe a dread or two - noice. Essentially no downside from being unbound, since Pedro's trait is fixed anyway and the SG get obsec from him.

But can you? Unbound counts a detachment but gets no command benefits. Is hold the line a command benefit? Some say yes, some say no. Sure is a commandER benefit.

But on the subject: Think what you can do battleforged now. With the gladius detachment you could get a Demi-company led by a chaplain. Take the mandatory auxiliary formation as a 1-st company task force and take sternguards. Slap in strikeforce command formation that is only Pedro and BAM! Everything is one detachemt and EVERYONE gets objective secure. (Tactical, Assault, Devastators as command benefit of demi-company, Pedro give objective secure to the remaining Sternguard!)

Hold the Line is not a Command Benefit. It is a special rule on a character. Command Benefits are tied directly to Detachments. You are right about the Gladius allowing for a whole bunch of ObSec, but it defeats the purpose behind an all-Sternguard army.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If I had the money, I would run a very fluffy Unbound army using Pedro Kantor and a bunch of Sternguard squads. The fact Pedro makes them ObSec mitigates one of the major drawbacks of Unbound (the biggest being people hate it and ban it). If I could figure out a way to do this without going unbound, I would buy like ten boxes of Sternguard without a thought.

Would that actually work? Huh, if it does, it'll be a nice way to put together a real Deathwatch force without having to take tax units that don't fit the theme; Pedro, Libby, 2 or 3 Sternguard squads, maybe a dread or two - noice. Essentially no downside from being unbound, since Pedro's trait is fixed anyway and the SG get obsec from him.

I already made my metal Pedro into a converted DW model because I saw something similar back in 5th ed. I was going to have a small DW force back then... might get back to work on it myself!


Also, after my previous post, I finally got a tracking number for my limited edition... looks like next week it is! :/

Yeah I'll wait until I have 'dex in hand to confirm 100% that the wording supports it working that way, but if so me likey a loty. Always wanted to do a small DW force.

Looking through my book; lots of recycled fluff.

New stuff:

The Inceptors, Destroyers, and Solar Hawks get colors schemes.

The Solar Hawks get a stupid looking chapter symbol.

The Death Spectres are now officially Raven Guard.

Question: would the new Vanguard Veterans squad be good without jump pack in a land raider riding with Grimaldus or i better stick with honor guard ? what's more cost efficient ?

 RedFox wrote:
Question: would the new Vanguard Veterans squad be good without jump pack in a land raider riding with Grimaldus or i better stick with honor guard ? what's more cost efficient ?

Well, Honour Guard are 135 pts for five with no upgrades, and they have bolters, bolt pistols, and power weapons. Vanguards are 115 pts for power weapons on everyone. So Vanguards have the edge there, since no one is going to be firing those bolters. Those 20 extra points can give two models a Storm Shield, give one a Relic Blade and a Storm Shield, the list goes on. Honestly, I think this is one of the few instances a VV squad is better than something else. The ability to reroll charge distance is also quite nice. The Honour Guard do have the ability to take a Land Raider as a dedicated transport, which is kinda cool.

does it change anything about the land raider ? starting a VV in a LR (using the LR formation) is exactly the same...

 RedFox wrote:
Question: would the new Vanguard Veterans squad be good without jump pack in a land raider riding with Grimaldus or i better stick with honor guard ? what's more cost efficient ?

The honor guard. Same vet statline, 2+ armor while dropping the vanguard abilities. Multiassaulting with marines doesn't come up that often. Reroll assault is cool admittedly. Power weapon VV's without packs are only a point less. On the upside, you can take some bullet catcher VV's with no gear to make the unit cheaper, but bullet catchers aren't as useful in a unit that is going in a land raider.