And a parking lot would fit the size of the game very well, because a standard battle takes place on a field of about 80 by 100 meters, which is something between a small and a big parking lot.
Who here honestly thinks this is going to be the ultimate winning formation in this book? I don't think it will be. There are too many other things that are powerful as well that will work the same or better.
In addition there reaches a point where you would rather take something else, even if it gives up the free transport. Depending on centurions prices and kit outs I am considering taking one of those instead. I want to try a large unit of heavy bolter cents with tiggy for the rending warlord trait. It could be interesting just having that many shots.
A prediction. You will almost never see this formation on the table.
Why ? Your average shop/club player isn't going to be able to put 10+ hulls down on the table.
Your not going to see if from tournament players either who would put down the money for this. Why ? Eldar Jetbikes/Warp Spiders shoot Razorbacks off the table, and in return the Space Marine formation doesn't put out that much damage
I've been running 9 pods with almost 80 marines for a while now, and done well with them. Started using them in 6th. They are fun to play and very effective. Razorbacks are also pretty good if used correctly.
I feel better now that I just put together 8 rhino chassis last week.
The real question is do I keep using full company...or switch to a Cad/Allied detachment with Sternguard, bolter drill and finally finish my Deathwatch army.....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
If a Demi company gets 1 use of a battle doctrine, does the full company, since its two demi companies, get the use of 2 doctrines????
Yeah I can't see myself rushing out to buy a load of Razorback kits, I've enjoyed building theone I have, and I have an old second edition one that needs restoring. Will likely just get a couple of Dev sets, and some more tactical marines to fill out some of the gals in my infantry, and maybe get one more razorback and a couple of pods.
As someone who's in it mainly for the modelling and the hobby right now, I just want a nice variety of cool stuff to build and paint that I can then play pick up games with.
Leth wrote: Who here honestly thinks this is going to be the ultimate winning formation in this book? I don't think it will be. There are too many other things that are powerful as well that will work the same or better.
In addition there reaches a point where you would rather take something else, even if it gives up the free transport. Depending on centurions prices and kit outs I am considering taking one of those instead. I want to try a large unit of heavy bolter cents with tiggy for the rending warlord trait. It could be interesting just having that many shots.
Depends on mission type. ITC tournament missions that are very objective based, including maelstrom? Having 2 IC's, 50 marines, and 10 razors with a touch less than half your points is pretty glorious. That gives plenty of room to start a detachment that has something actually threatening, like a centstar or some white scar bikers. If it's true that you can take two full companies with no auxiliaries, then that's FORTY UNITS in 1850! My msu spam BA list only gets to 25! That's a lot of units to have to chew through.
In a random eternal war mission? Not as good. Insta-loss for purge the alien, and better the more objectives there are.
A significant factor is: does anyone actually want to BUY 20 razorbacks just to have a good tourney army for a couple years. The formation isn't exactly "future-proof." It may up and vanish next codex, and then you have a bunch of razorbacks gathering dust.
mercury14 wrote: Okay so in an 1850 list, SM armies can get actually TWENTY free tanks, correct? Even just ten free tanks is completely ridiculous. For one, every single SM player is going to use a 10-tank Razorback screen from now on, giving a cover save to the rest of their army. There aren't enough turns in the game to counter it.
WIth 10-20 free tanks they don't even need a shooting phase, they can just roll onto all the objectives and there's basically nothing anyone can do.
Welcome to the age of spam and cookie cutter armies. If you thought it was bad before, you had no idea.
A prediction. You will almost never see this formation on the table.
Why ? Your average shop/club player isn't going to be able to put 10+ hulls down on the table.
Your not going to see if from tournament players either who would put down the money for this. Why ? Eldar Jetbikes/Warp Spiders shoot Razorbacks off the table, and in return the Space Marine formation doesn't put out that much damage.
Every SM player I know owns more than 10 vehicles. Most own 5 vehicles just in drop pods.
The formation doesn't put out much damage? Ten TL Heavy Bolters is nothing to laugh at when you play something like Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyrannids, etc. But let's put that aside.... 10 free Razorbacks.... invest 200 points and you get ten TL Lascannons and now everything in the game dies to it.
That's completely ridiculous. This formation is incredibly stupidly broken.
Honestly too much of the game is still dependent on who goes first. No amount of formation shenanigans is going to change that. 40k will remain shackled to who goes first until we change the turn sequence to alternating phases.
A significant factor is: does anyone actually want to BUY 20 razorbacks just to have a good tourney army for a couple years. The formation isn't exactly "future-proof." It may up and vanish next codex, and then you have a bunch of razorbacks gathering dust.
SickSix wrote: Honestly too much of the game is still dependent on who goes first. No amount of formation shenanigans is going to change that. 40k will remain shackled to who goes first until we change the turn sequence to alternating phases.
Agreed, it's something which you can point at which none of the other most popular systems share. Neither X Wng, Infinity or Warmahordes allow a player to do what they like without sanction.
Feel free to check out my humble efforts. This is a pre play test version with some work to do, but it should be playable, rule of thumb is if there isn't a change specified, stick to the BRB. Highly recommended to be used in conjunction with Zagman's balanced Codexes down in the Prop Rules forum.
When is that new Terminator Captain coming out?????
What new Terminator Captain? You mean the one that came exclusively with Strike Force Ultra? It came out a year and a half ago. It has not been made available since. GW are douches for using it in examples when it is impossible to buy.
When is that new Terminator Captain coming out?????
What new Terminator Captain? You mean the one that came exclusively with Strike Force Ultra? It came out a year and a half ago. It has not been made available since. GW are douches for using it in examples when it is impossible to buy.
When is that new Terminator Captain coming out?????
What new Terminator Captain? You mean the one that came exclusively with Strike Force Ultra? It came out a year and a half ago. It has not been made available since. GW are douches for using it in examples when it is impossible to buy.
Except they haven't been using anything that is either A) not buildable out of their sets or B) not available off their shelves.
The phrasing on the Terminator Captain in Strike Force Ultra was that it was initially exclusive to that set, so there is a very real possibility it will be made available.
The free Razorbacks formation makes my Iron Hands very happy. Though still no special character is kind of disappointing. I feel like I'd rather have had Razorbacks and Dreads (SM armor in general) get noticeable buffs than see a formation give everything free stuff.
But I do look forward to putting down a bunch of TL Assault Cannon Razorbacks, enough to even throw some TLLC ones down in the backfield.
One post said just rhinos/pods/razorbacks were free but another said "dedicated transports"... Do centurions in the formation get free Land Raiders or not?
When is that new Terminator Captain coming out?????
What new Terminator Captain? You mean the one that came exclusively with Strike Force Ultra? It came out a year and a half ago. It has not been made available since. GW are douches for using it in examples when it is impossible to buy.
Except they haven't been using anything that is either A) not buildable out of their sets or B) not available off their shelves.
The phrasing on the Terminator Captain in Strike Force Ultra was that it was initially exclusive to that set, so there is a very real possibility it will be made available.
Initially exclusive, and still currently unavailable.
When is that new Terminator Captain coming out?????
What new Terminator Captain? You mean the one that came exclusively with Strike Force Ultra? It came out a year and a half ago. It has not been made available since. GW are douches for using it in examples when it is impossible to buy.
Except they haven't been using anything that is either A) not buildable out of their sets or B) not available off their shelves.
The phrasing on the Terminator Captain in Strike Force Ultra was that it was initially exclusive to that set, so there is a very real possibility it will be made available.
Initially exclusive, and still currently unavailable.
Who's to say for how much longer?
The listing that went up today is interesting because it doesn't have the Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain listed--despite the two having been shown in leaks at the same time. It leads me to think that we still have at least an additional week of Marine releases.
well, I have to say I called the free transport upgrade last month when discussing new marine formations. My only stipulation was that it had to be full sized squads.
The listing that went up today is interesting because it doesn't have the Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain listed--despite the two having been shown in leaks at the same time. It leads me to think that we still have at least an additional week of Marine releases.
The codex has typically been made available on the penultimate week of a release cycle, so that people picking it up don't get any spoilers too far ahead. That means any more vanilla marine releases are unlikely.
The most likely scenario is:
Jun 12th: SM Librarian pre-order
Jun 19th: DA Chaplain + codex pre-order
Jun 26th: Follow-up DA kit or random filler
July 4th: WHFB reboot pre-order
When is that new Terminator Captain coming out?????
What new Terminator Captain? You mean the one that came exclusively with Strike Force Ultra? It came out a year and a half ago. It has not been made available since. GW are douches for using it in examples when it is impossible to buy.
Except they haven't been using anything that is either A) not buildable out of their sets or B) not available off their shelves.
The phrasing on the Terminator Captain in Strike Force Ultra was that it was initially exclusive to that set, so there is a very real possibility it will be made available.
Initially exclusive, and still currently unavailable.
Who's to say for how much longer?
The listing that went up today is interesting because it doesn't have the Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain listed--despite the two having been shown in leaks at the same time. It leads me to think that we still have at least an additional week of Marine releases.
I am hoping for a TFC in plastic with a plastic Techmarine more than I am a Terminator Captain. I would be happy if they did release him, though.
The listing that went up today is interesting because it doesn't have the Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain listed--despite the two having been shown in leaks at the same time. It leads me to think that we still have at least an additional week of Marine releases.
The codex has typically been made available on the penultimate week of a release cycle, so that people picking it up don't get any spoilers too far ahead. That means any more vanilla marine releases are unlikely.
The most likely scenario is:
Jun 12th: SM Librarian pre-order
Jun 19th: DA Chaplain + codex pre-order
Jun 26th: Follow-up DA kit or random filler
July 4th: WHFB reboot pre-order
And yet, the promo pictures of the Librarian actually had him with Ultramarine iconography on his pauldrons and tabard with the inset photos having Dark Angels' iconography.
The listing also has him listed as "Space Marine Terminator Librarian" in the same timeframe as an Ultramarines painting book. If it were a Dark Angels release, it would say "Dark Angels Terminator Librarian" just like we saw with the Blood Angels one.
jSewell wrote: The free Razorbacks formation makes my Iron Hands very happy. Though still no special character is kind of disappointing. I feel like I'd rather have had Razorbacks and Dreads (SM armor in general) get noticeable buffs than see a formation give everything free stuff.
But I do look forward to putting down a bunch of TL Assault Cannon Razorbacks, enough to even throw some TLLC ones down in the backfield.
One post said just rhinos/pods/razorbacks were free but another said "dedicated transports"... Do centurions in the formation get free Land Raiders or not?
Just base Rhinos, Razorbacks and Drop Pods as Ded Trans.
The listing that went up today is interesting because it doesn't have the Dark Angels Interrogator Chaplain listed--despite the two having been shown in leaks at the same time. It leads me to think that we still have at least an additional week of Marine releases.
The codex has typically been made available on the penultimate week of a release cycle, so that people picking it up don't get any spoilers too far ahead. That means any more vanilla marine releases are unlikely.
The most likely scenario is:
Jun 12th: SM Librarian pre-order
Jun 19th: DA Chaplain + codex pre-order
Jun 26th: Follow-up DA kit or random filler
July 4th: WHFB reboot pre-order
Yeah, but it's hard to spoil a model coming out that's already been previously available. My guess is that it will be released about two years after Strike Force Ultra came out, or during a time with no marine releases, which ever one comes sooner.
As for those talking about the 20 free vehicles, who is going to run that?
That's
2xCaptain
2xChaplain
12 x 5 Tacs
4 x 5 Assault
4 x 5 Dev No upgrades for 1760. 90 Points isn't going to get you much of anything for those squads. Less than 1 special weapon a piece and all your free razorbacks are heavy bolters. I guess you could take 9 meltaguns, but still you'd get wtf pwned by most things.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd much rather run 2 demis (880) plus upgrades.
Stormraven is on the right, the big one to the left with a tactical marine walking out of it is the Thunderhawk. Would be truly awesome if it did come out in a plastic kit.
The one with the open ramp, the big one in the foreground is not the one from Forgeworld!
I checked both I have and there is a major discrepancy:
The side doors have been set back for 2 cm compared to the ones I have! But those have some days...and newer moulds might have those doors set back.
But in my book this might well be a plastic one!
GREAT FIND!!! WOW!!!
edit: will try to take a pic to proof my point!
Re-edit: ERROR it's the Forgeworld one!
I only looked at the left side and never evr noticed that the door on the right side is really set back so far and is not in the same position as the left side door!
Red Marine wrote: In 25 years of 40k ive never heard of 2 tyranids sweeping a fortification clean of the enemy. Not once. There is no other army who's table top performance is so diametrically different than their fluff.
Read more then.
The Doom of Malan'ti is a regular Zoanthrope. It killed an entire craftworld.
I think you are wrong miniholic. Go look at the FW site. The side doors do not match up. One is under the canard wing (right side if looking head on) the other is not.
SickSix wrote: Honestly too much of the game is still dependent on who goes first. No amount of formation shenanigans is going to change that. 40k will remain shackled to who goes first until we change the turn sequence to alternating phases.
Frankly all of these "use once per game" that can give you twinlinked everything, +3 cover save, +4 BS and junk. It just makes the first turn action that much MORE important. I really wish GW would get away from it.
Nicorex wrote: I think you are wrong miniholic. Go look at the FW site. The side doors do not match up. One is under the canard wing (right side if looking head on) the other is not.
The door isn't under the wing in the new pic, either.
The one with the open ramp, the big one in the foreground is not the one from Forgeworld!
I checked both I have and there is a major discrepancy:
The side doors have been set back for 2 cm compared to the ones I have! But those have some days...and newer moulds might have those doors set back.
But in my book this might well be a plastic one!
GREAT FIND!!! WOW!!!
edit: will try to take a pic to proof my point!
Re-edit: ERROR it's the Forgeworld one!
I only looked at the left side and never evr noticed that the door on the right side is really set back so far and is not in the same position as the left side door!
And a parking lot would fit the size of the game very well, because a standard battle takes place on a field of about 80 by 100 meters, which is something between a small and a big parking lot.
a standard battle takes place on a field where everything is within 1/3 of the effective range of the smallest weapon?
I mean people can run flat out 100 meters.
An assault rifle is effective to roughly 300 meters.
A pistol perhaps 50 meters.
I dont see 40k as being 100 meters square. More like 500 meters square
ImAGeek wrote: The rivets are there, just harder to see on the whitish one.
He actually has a point.
FW's photos have the 'rivets' running along the side panel of the doors(the raised part in front of the Heavy Bolters) as protruding while the photographed one by all appearances has them recessed.
Whether it's just the person who built the Thunderhawk had issues with those rivets and filed them down or it is in fact a new kit is up for debate though.
ImAGeek wrote: The rivets are there, just harder to see on the whitish one.
He actually has a point.
FW's photos have the 'rivets' running along the side panel of the doors(the raised part in front of the Heavy Bolters) as protruding while the photographed one by all appearances has them recessed.
Whether it's just the person who built the Thunderhawk had issues with those rivets and filed them down or it is in fact a new kit is up for debate though.
The rivets all look the same to me. The ones on the side are recessed and the big ones on the front protrude, like here:
I guess if you're making just a lot of Assault Marines and Vanguard they're decent, and giving your Scouts or other Infiltrating units Shrouded and possible Stealth on Turn 1 is nice... but is it better than giving them UM Doctrines, Bolter Drill, or even 6+ FNP? I dunno.
Maybe it's useful as an "anti alpha strike" list, where you load up on Camo Cloak Scouts for a turn 1 4+ guaranteed even outside of cover, guaranteed 2+ in any cover (even 5+), which makes you much more able to weather things like Drop Pods, Nemesis Strike Force or Dark Eldar Turn 1 DS, or Skitarii scout forward lists (if Night Fight, Camo Cloak Raven Guard has a 2+ in any cover and a 4+ outside of cover even against a Omnispex).
Seriously, has GW ever snuck in a new kit in White Dwarf without talking about it? That doesn't seem to be how they operate. Hell that would actually demonstrate some cleverness that I just don't think they possess.
SickSix wrote: Seriously, has GW ever snuck in a new kit in White Dwarf without talking about it? That doesn't seem to be how they operate. Hell that would actually demonstrate some cleverness that I just don't think they possess.
Actually, I think we have seen terrain before it was released in WD.
Nevelon wrote: While part of me is going to miss the fleet and re-rolling snap shots, I think I can deal with the new doctrines.
Is it just me, or does the wording on the UM doctrines imply is works for all UM things in your army, including vehicles?
It sure does. "All Ultramarine Models". Vehicles are models. Ultramarines are probably the best chapter tactics by far now, other than WS for Bikespam armies.
The big thing here is the example under the intro section:
If an Ultramarines Tactical Squad is joined by an Imperial Fists Chaplain, it counts as neither an Ultramarines unit nor an Imperial Fists unit.
No more mixing and matching CTs. Can't just bring a WS character on a Bike and give Space Wolf TWC Hit and Run.
SickSix wrote: Seriously, has GW ever snuck in a new kit in White Dwarf without talking about it? That doesn't seem to be how they operate. Hell that would actually demonstrate some cleverness that I just don't think they possess.
Actually, I think we have seen terrain before it was released in WD.
Before they did the switch to WD weekly, we saw the Black Guard/Executioners for Dark Elves a month early--albeit in a very small snapshot.
Nevelon wrote: Is it just me, or does the wording on the UM doctrines imply is works for all UM things in your army, including vehicles?
This would only be the case if the vehicle had "Chapter Tactics" as a special rule (which they presently don't -- also the drop pods in the new codex don't). Though I do see what you mean, in the 6e book, it read, "Models in this detachment..." under Ultramarines combat doctrines, and that's always been understood to mean models with the Chapter Tactics SR, not all models in the detachment.
Nevelon wrote: While part of me is going to miss the fleet and re-rolling snap shots, I think I can deal with the new doctrines.
Is it just me, or does the wording on the UM doctrines imply is works for all UM things in your army, including vehicles?
It sure does. "All Ultramarine Models". Vehicles are models. Ultramarines are probably the best chapter tactics by far now, other than WS for Bikespam armies.
The big thing here is the example under the intro section:
If an Ultramarines Tactical Squad is joined by an Imperial Fists Chaplain, it counts as neither an Ultramarines unit nor an Imperial Fists unit.
No more mixing and matching CTs. Can't just bring a WS character on a Bike and give Space Wolf TWC Hit and Run.
Actually, it means that White Scars Librarian palling around with Lysander or Marneus Calgar for hit and run wouldn't work, since both have the chapter tactics special rule, but if that same librarian is with Draigo or Logan Grimnar, it will work just fine, since neither Draigo nor Logan have the Chapter Tactics special rule to counter act the White Scars version.
Requizen wrote: It sure does. "All Ultramarine Models". Vehicles are models. Ultramarines are probably the best chapter tactics by far now, other than WS for Bikespam armies.
I would disagree. Why do some models have the Chapter Tactics special rule, and not others, then? And in the old book, it read, under Devastator Doctrine, "Models in this detachment may re-roll To Hit with Snap Shots". Do you play with that allowing vehicles (without Chapter Tactics) to reroll to hit with snap shots in 6e ct rules?
Except in the context of that restriction it is referring to chapters that have chapter tactics within the book. You can still join allied units and retain all of your chapter tactics but it is nice to see that little addition. White scars still having hit and run is a surprise, although not unwanted.
Tactical doctrine is better than expected since it occurs in both the phases. Throw an ic in the unit and now they get it if the you it is a tactical, same with assault or dev units. Quite interesting to see how it works out. Need to see the formations exact wording since we have obviously missed some fine details.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: Except in the context of that restriction it is referring to chapters that have chapter tactics within the book. You can still join allied units and retain all of your chapter tactics but it is nice to see that little addition. White scars still having hit and run is a surprise, although not unwanted.
Tactical doctrine is better than expected since it occurs in both the phases. Throw an ic in the unit and now they get it if the you it is a tactical, same with assault or dev units. Quite interesting to see how it works out. Need to see the formations exact wording since we have obviously missed some fine details.
Also if you read the combat tactics section whenever it refers to models or units only those with the combat tactics special rule are being referenced.
You know, I'm beginning to wonder if Iron Hands are really good now, in a Company. I always liked Ultramarines before, because of the combat doctrines, and granted, getting them twice is cool.
But using the doctrine even once is really enough to change the course of the game, and perhaps FNP is worth giving up a second combat doctrine use...
Note that Flesh is Weak is buffed too. Old version was "best FNP version", new one is +1 to FNP.
SickSix wrote: Seriously, has GW ever snuck in a new kit in White Dwarf without talking about it? That doesn't seem to be how they operate. Hell that would actually demonstrate some cleverness that I just don't think they possess.
Yeah, the plastic Trygon was in a white dwarf a few months early, people worked out it wasn't the FW one. They actually did it quite a bit at one point iirc.
Requizen wrote: It sure does. "All Ultramarine Models". Vehicles are models. Ultramarines are probably the best chapter tactics by far now, other than WS for Bikespam armies.
I would disagree. Why do some models have the Chapter Tactics special rule, and not others, then? And in the old book, it read, under Devastator Doctrine, "Models in this detachment may re-roll To Hit with Snap Shots". Do you play with that allowing vehicles (without Chapter Tactics) to reroll to hit with snap shots in 6e ct rules?
How do you define an Iron Hand vehicle to get their bonus? It seems to me any argument that gets used to tag a vehicle for the IHCT can also be used to define a model as an UM one.
-Gauntlet of Ultramar lost Unwieldy. Still not specialist. So that's base 5A at I5 S8. Calgar loses his grenades if taking the Armor of Antilochus though.
-Grav Cannon with amp is NOT 7 but 4 melta bombs.
-Sicarius gained Furious Charge. Dropped by 2 melta bombs.
-Tigurius unchanged and did NOT gained rending has previously said.
-Cassius unchanged
-Telion no longer an upgrade, but IC. Gained one HP, costs 10 melta bombs
-Chronus gained one hp, treated as a passenger if tank goes kaboom. Otherwise unchanged. Upgrade vehicule to character smile.png
-Khan unchanged
-Vulkan unchanged
-Shrike unchanged
-Django Unchained
-Lysander got his weapons changed from S10 to +6S. Weird.
-Rest have been discussed.
-Terminator captain is no longer a separate entry. CM is an upgrade. Nothing else changed
-Libby, Chaplain unchanged
-Techmarine : Costs +3 Melta Bombs, comes stock with a power axe, +1HP +1CT. Basically the new MotF but at - 5 melta bombs. Motf as disappeared.
-Scout HAVE MARINE STATLINE without point modification. Yes, you read that right.
-Crusader squads have been written of the book. No, that one's not true. Sorry for that templars smile.png
-Command squads are elite now, -2 melta bombs
-Assault Centurions dropped by 5 melta bombs (unit), 1 per model. Veteran Sergeant is NOT stock now, an upgrade of 2 melta bombs. (still comes cheaper by 3 smile.png)
-Vanguard Veterans : power weapon and lightning claw upgrade now ONLY COSTS ONE MELTA BOMB PER LEVEL. Heroïc intervention let reroll one or two dice when charging, not taking malus for multiple charges.
-Sternguards went down by 2 melta bomb (as it should have been in the previous dex)
-I confirm that Dreads have 4 attacks. Cannot take multiple drop pods for units of dread. They have chapter tactics, ninja boost for the UM.
-Contrary to what was said, the Legion of the Damned deep striking is not buffed. Completely unchanged.
-Terminator -5 melta bombs per unit, one per model. TH/SS now cost 2, has said.
-Assault squads comes stock without Jump Packs, but in the final same PPM.
-Assault bikes went down by one melta bomb per model.
-Land speeders went down by one melta bomb, as well some of their weapon upgrade (to lazy to check line by line)
-Stormtalon now comes with a bonus 6" if zooming. Keeps the strafing run. Weapon upgrades cost vastly reduced.
-Dev squads can now take a cherub. Give them the silly look special rules, as well as rerool to hit. For one model. One use only. Yay. Auspex now decreases the cover save by one (12" range).
-Dev centurions have the same price tweaks as assault. Grav cannon is + one melta bomb on them, for a total of five. Costlier for them than for other squads.
-Tank squads are as previously said, with special rules.
-Vindicator lost the stock Storm Bolter, lost one melta bomb per model.
-Gauntlet of Ultramar lost Unwieldy. Still not specialist. So that's base 5A at I5 S8. Calgar loses his grenades if taking the Armor of Antilochus though.
-Grav Cannon with amp is NOT 7 but 4 melta bombs.
-Sicarius gained Furious Charge. Dropped by 2 melta bombs.
-Tigurius unchanged and did NOT gained rending has previously said.
-Cassius unchanged
-Telion no longer an upgrade, but IC. Gained one HP, costs 10 melta bombs
-Chronus gained one hp, treated as a passenger if tank goes kaboom. Otherwise unchanged. Upgrade vehicule to character smile.png
-Khan unchanged
-Vulkan unchanged
-Shrike unchanged
-Django Unchained
-Lysander got his weapons changed from S10 to +6S. Weird.
-Rest have been discussed.
-Terminator captain is no longer a separate entry. CM is an upgrade. Nothing else changed
-Libby, Chaplain unchanged
-Techmarine : Costs +3 Melta Bombs, comes stock with a power axe, +1HP +1CT. Basically the new MotF but at - 5 melta bombs. Motf as disappeared.
-Scout HAVE MARINE STATLINE without point modification. Yes, you read that right.
-Crusader squads have been written of the book. No, that one's not true. Sorry for that templars smile.png
-Command squads are elite now, -2 melta bombs
-Assault Centurions dropped by 5 melta bombs (unit), 1 per model. Veteran Sergeant is NOT stock now, an upgrade of 2 melta bombs. (still comes cheaper by 3 smile.png)
-Vanguard Veterans : power weapon and lightning claw upgrade now ONLY COSTS ONE MELTA BOMB PER LEVEL. Heroïc intervention let reroll one or two dice when charging, not taking malus for multiple charges.
-Sternguards went down by 2 melta bomb (as it should have been in the previous dex)
-I confirm that Dreads have 4 attacks. Cannot take multiple drop pods for units of dread. They have chapter tactics, ninja boost for the UM.
-Contrary to what was said, the Legion of the Damned deep striking is not buffed. Completely unchanged.
-Terminator -5 melta bombs per unit, one per model. TH/SS now cost 2, has said.
-Assault squads comes stock without Jump Packs, but in the final same PPM.
-Assault bikes went down by one melta bomb per model.
-Land speeders went down by one melta bomb, as well some of their weapon upgrade (to lazy to check line by line)
-Stormtalon now comes with a bonus 6" if zooming. Keeps the strafing run. Weapon upgrades cost vastly reduced.
-Dev squads can now take a cherub. Give them the silly look special rules, as well as rerool to hit. For one model. One use only. Yay. Auspex now decreases the cover save by one (12" range).
-Dev centurions have the same price tweaks as assault. Grav cannon is + one melta bomb on them, for a total of five. Costlier for them than for other squads.
-Tank squads are as previously said, with special rules.
-Vindicator lost the stock Storm Bolter, lost one melta bomb per model.
AAAAAAAAAAAAND that's all folks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dariokan
Ugh. I thought SM had enough favoritism as is. /CSM rant
Scouts are back to their original stats from two or three editions ago, when they were cheapo marines with a 4+ save. This may actually make them even more viable than before now.
Hola. Now that is awesome. No reason not to take it in the Tactical squad now. Crap, gotta buy more devastator boxes :X
-Scout HAVE MARINE STATLINE without point modification. Yes, you read that right.
OMG. What Changed?! Don't leave us hanging. So cruel!!!
-Command squads are elite now, -2 melta bombs
Sweet!
-I confirm that Dreads have 4 attacks. Cannot take multiple drop pods for units of dread. They have chapter tactics, ninja boost for the UM.
Whoa, that's very nice
-Stormtalon now comes with a bonus 6" if zooming. Keeps the strafing run. Weapon upgrades cost vastly reduced.
Hmmm....
Thank you!!!!
Did I miss a post about the tank squad bonuses (other than Land Raider)?
Scouts used to have full marine statlines, barring the armor save. The 3 WS/BS is new from the 5th? ed codex. I’d have to check the shelf.
IIRC from either upthread here, over on Warseer a/o B&C:
All vehicles can squadron you get bonus if you take 3. Whirlwinds get shred and pinning. Preds get monster and tank hunter.
Vindis get a apoc pie plate of doom
Stalkers get interceptor and ignore cover
Nope. Ive never read an Aliens rip off, re-hash completely devoid of science fiction. Honestly ive never wanted to read The Life of Pi in a buncker. There hasnt been a day where a friend of mine said "Theres a great book where 1 Lictor kills 300 terrified, lowly PDF guardsmen over 400 pages and it was good.".
Much more to the point, that went ROCKETING over your head, was not that "my bolter porn is better than yours" is the idea that this new codex doesnt do anything the fans want. Im sure xenos players love the idea of gobbling up piles of marines every turn, but its 2 codexes and multiple years of SM being the mid-tier army every bases thier performance on. If I have to hear/read "My flyrant can kill twice as many marines per game as your Phoenix Lord!", again I want it to MEAN something. I want to enjoy all the games where decurions & overpowered MCs roll up my army. The way to do that is make marines hard to kill. Make'em 30 points a piece. Hell, 40! We dont care. We just want marines. Real Adeptus Astartes.
Also if you cant reasonably join me in a meaningful conversation about the shortfalls of the new SM codex, please dont sink to critiquing the pulp fiction I choose to read.
-grav cannon and amp for just under a blackjack.
Whoa...that's lower than expected. Best Devastator gun by a mile then.
-scouts with full marine profile
Hawt. Wish that happened in the BA dex. Maybe I'll run counts as red "black Templar" scout spam or something. Rage for losing a guy last turn or to overwatch seems nifty.
-Gauntlet of Ultramar lost Unwieldy. Still not specialist. So that's base 5A at I5 S8. Calgar loses his grenades if taking the Armor of Antilochus though.
Daang. Well, I guess as a LoW that makes sense. That sound you hear is Imotekh crying in comparison, btw.
-Grav Cannon with amp is NOT 7 but 4 melta bombs.
Solid, gonna sell them units too.
-Telion no longer an upgrade, but IC. Gained one HP, costs 10 melta bombs
Interesting. Combined with below, Scouts are quite cool.
-Chronus gained one hp, treated as a passenger if tank goes kaboom. Otherwise unchanged. Upgrade vehicule to character smile.png
Warlord tank would be cool if vehicles weren't so easy to blow up.
-Shrike unchanged
-Scout HAVE MARINE STATLINE without point modification. Yes, you read that right.
BS4 Scouts? For the same price? Whooooaaah, that's pretty huge. Scout armies are a pretty big deal now.
-Vanguard Veterans : power weapon and lightning claw upgrade now ONLY COSTS ONE MELTA BOMB PER LEVEL. Heroïc intervention let reroll one or two dice when charging, not taking malus for multiple charges.
Quite interesting. Vanguards being better means that there could be some cool builds now. Still, Jump isn't quite awesome.
-Sternguards went down by 2 melta bomb (as it should have been in the previous dex)
One of the best units in the book got better. Are we still crying?
-I confirm that Dreads have 4 attacks. Cannot take multiple drop pods for units of dread. They have chapter tactics, ninja boost for the UM.
Sucks for Raven Guard. Good for Ultramarines and maybe Imperial Fists (if you take Bolter type guns)
-Contrary to what was said, the Legion of the Damned deep striking is not buffed. Completely unchanged.
boo
-Stormtalon now comes with a bonus 6" if zooming. Keeps the strafing run. Weapon upgrades cost vastly reduced.
Possibly quite good. SM flyers could use a boost, rarely see them, at least in my experience.
-Dev squads can now take a cherub. Give them the silly look special rules, as well as rerool to hit. For one model. One use only. Yay. Auspex now decreases the cover save by one (12" range).
BrookM wrote: Scouts are back to their original stats from two or three editions ago, when they were cheapo marines with a 4+ save. This may actually make them even more viable than before now.
I am an idiot, sorry. I misread the leak as a NEW statline, I understand now DUH.
niv-mizzet wrote: -grav cannon and amp for just under a blackjack.
Whoa...that's lower than expected. Best Devastator gun by a mile then.
-scouts with full marine profile
Hawt. Wish that happened in the BA dex. Maybe I'll run counts as red "black Templar" scout spam or something. Rage for losing a guy last turn or to overwatch seems nifty.
Grav: Yeah, no kidding, huh?
Black Templars ---> Crimson Templars!
It's funny. The sculpted BA parts from the Tactical box -- mostly legs and shoulders -- plus all the sculpted jump packs from the Deathstorm boxes convinced me to remodel my entire Blood Angels army, which had been pretty much untouched for nearly 15 years -- though I (mostly) play them as vanilla successors.
I guess if you're making just a lot of Assault Marines and Vanguard they're decent, and giving your Scouts or other Infiltrating units Shrouded and possible Stealth on Turn 1 is nice... but is it better than giving them UM Doctrines, Bolter Drill, or even 6+ FNP? I dunno.
Maybe it's useful as an "anti alpha strike" list, where you load up on Camo Cloak Scouts for a turn 1 4+ guaranteed even outside of cover, guaranteed 2+ in any cover (even 5+), which makes you much more able to weather things like Drop Pods, Nemesis Strike Force or Dark Eldar Turn 1 DS, or Skitarii scout forward lists (if Night Fight, Camo Cloak Raven Guard has a 2+ in any cover and a 4+ outside of cover even against a Omnispex).
doesnt shrouded confer. IE you take a raven guard character and put him in a unit for +2 cover first turn. Not that bad. Particularly if techmarines are still cheap.
Chaplain x2 - 180
Captain - 90
9 Tac Squads in 9 Razorbacks with Las/Plas - 810
3 Dev Squads with 4 Grav and Cherubs in Drop Pods with Deathwind - 495
3 Assault Squads with 2 Flamers in Drop Pods - 270
1845
3 Demi Companies:
Chaplain x2 - 180
Captain - 90
9 Tac Squads with Melta/combi-Melta - 810
3 Dev Squads with 4 Grav and Cherub - 465
3 Assault Squads with 2 Flamers - 240
15 Free Drop Pods - 0
6 Deathwinds - 60
1845
That's a lot of drop pods. I'm sure Games Workshop would be very happy
pretre wrote: Chaplain x2 - 180
Captain - 90
9 Tac Squads in 9 Razorbacks with Las/Plas - 810
3 Dev Squads with 4 Grav and Cherubs in Drop Pods with Deathwind - 495
3 Assault Squads with 2 Flamers in Drop Pods - 270
1845
Crazyterran wrote: Seems that grav cannons are 35pts, which puts the rest of what the guy said into question...
Grav cannons were rumored at 35 when someone said they were almost double a lascannon. This guy is reading straight out of the book.
They could both be right. Lascannons could be 10! Wouldn't that be something, huh? Imagine if a 5-man devastator squad with 4 lascannons was 110 points. That would be some value.
Crazyterran wrote: Seems that grav cannons are 35pts, which puts the rest of what the guy said into question...
Grav cannons were rumored at 35 when someone said they were almost double a lascannon. This guy is reading straight out of the book.
20 and 35 both sound wrong.
If a gravcannon and gravamp are worth 20 points more than a heavy bolter and equal to a twinlinked lascannon, they should be more than a regular lascannon
Crazyterran wrote: Seems that grav cannons are 35pts, which puts the rest of what the guy said into question...
Grav cannons were rumored at 35 when someone said they were almost double a lascannon. This guy is reading straight out of the book.
20 and 35 both sound wrong. If a gravcannon and gravamp are worth 20 points more than a heavy bolter and equal to a twinlinked lascannon, they should be more than a regular lascannon
but they shouldnt be more than 30.
35 is right. check the german screenshots. It's the last thing in the heavy weapon list under Lazerkannen.
Desubot wrote:Whats really to cry about. not much significant changed.
And things most people considered trash at least got a slight cost reduction.
Honestly, this book is a lot like the Necron book in my eyes. Chapter Tactics (the book defining thing, like Reanimation) got buffed. Most things got cheaper. Small boosts all around, very few (if any) nerfs.
Seems pretty similar to me. I'm sure SM players will really enjoy this book
I guess if you're making just a lot of Assault Marines and Vanguard they're decent, and giving your Scouts or other Infiltrating units Shrouded and possible Stealth on Turn 1 is nice... but is it better than giving them UM Doctrines, Bolter Drill, or even 6+ FNP? I dunno.
Maybe it's useful as an "anti alpha strike" list, where you load up on Camo Cloak Scouts for a turn 1 4+ guaranteed even outside of cover, guaranteed 2+ in any cover (even 5+), which makes you much more able to weather things like Drop Pods, Nemesis Strike Force or Dark Eldar Turn 1 DS, or Skitarii scout forward lists (if Night Fight, Camo Cloak Raven Guard has a 2+ in any cover and a 4+ outside of cover even against a Omnispex).
doesnt shrouded confer. IE you take a raven guard character and put him in a unit for +2 cover first turn. Not that bad. Particularly if techmarines are still cheap.
Also bikes can Jink for 2+
It does make them decent allies, that's true. Giving Shrouded to some allied Skitarii or IG could be quite cool. And yeah, makes bikes good... but then again, Scars bikes get 3+ jink on every turn, not just the first. So, a nice boost, but I wouldn't build an army around it.
I think Scout-focused Raven Guard might be interesting, as I said before. Camo Cloak Scouts are now much shootier and with Shrouded are quite hard to kill on Turn 1. Not tourney topping, but quite interesting.
3 Demi Companies:
Chaplain x2 - 180
Captain - 90
9 Tac Squads with Melta/combi-Melta - 810
3 Dev Squads with 4 Grav and Cherub - 465
3 Assault Squads with 2 Flamers - 240
15 Free Drop Pods - 0
6 Deathwinds - 60
1845
That's a lot of drop pods. I'm sure Games Workshop would be very happy
pretre wrote: Chaplain x2 - 180
Captain - 90
9 Tac Squads in 9 Razorbacks with Las/Plas - 810
3 Dev Squads with 4 Grav and Cherubs in Drop Pods with Deathwind - 495
3 Assault Squads with 2 Flamers in Drop Pods - 270
1845
They look a lot better, but still, with the other upgrades, grav, etc. there's not really any reason to take them :( S4AP5 with one assault cannon is just so useless on a unit that's going to cost you 200 points after upgrades. lol... you are better off with 2 of the new dreadnoughts
pretre wrote: Supposedly Devs get heavy weapons for a different price. That's why he says they are 20 instead of 35.
Ahhhhh I see. I think they come with a heavy bolter by default, or something, so that would make sense, right? Or that was the rumor. Then again, base cost of devs may have gone up? Need a pic of the page!
At this rate, I won't need to buy the new Codex. I'll just have to learn German!
pretre wrote: Supposedly Devs get heavy weapons for a different price. That's why he says they are 20 instead of 35.
Ahhhhh I see. I think they come with a heavy bolter by default, or something, so that would make sense, right? Or that was the rumor. Then again, base cost of devs may have gone up? Need a pic of the page!
At this rate, I won't need to buy the new Codex. I'll just have to learn German!
remember when devs paid MORE for heavy weapons than tacticals?
Lascannons on tactical, 25 points. Same lascannon on the same marine, only a devistator cost 45 points.
pretre wrote: Supposedly Devs get heavy weapons for a different price. That's why he says they are 20 instead of 35.
Ahhhhh I see. I think they come with a heavy bolter by default, or something, so that would make sense, right? Or that was the rumor. Then again, base cost of devs may have gone up? Need a pic of the page!
At this rate, I won't need to buy the new Codex. I'll just have to learn German!
remember when devs paid MORE for heavy weapons than tacticals?
Lascannons on tactical, 25 points. Same lascannon on the same marine, only a devistator cost 45 points.
Some days I regret building mine with Missile Launchers, but, c'est la vie.
that has gotta be one of the easiest post paint job mods there is.
Ehh, those Missile Launchers have also gotten me good things more than a few times. I used plastic glue, so, sadly, no taking them out. I suppose I could cut the tips off. They'll look close enough at that point.
Vintersorg wrote: Not surprised at all to see all these point drops.
Less points, more models. More money for mama GW.
And all when 2000 points is becoming more and more common.
At this rate in five years we will have the battlefields so crammed with stuff that you won't be able to move anything .
Nah, the points totals of games will probably drop. In 5th it seemed that 2500 and 2000 point games (and sometimes tournaments) were common. Now everyone's playing 1850.
Whats the best way to run scouts with this change? Bolter scouts or CCW+pistol.
Also I like how command squad is a elite now, you can run Iron Hand 2-3 units on grav bikes with SS gets you a highly mobile shooty unit thats hard to kill(3++, 4+ FNP) and decent in combat.
Ah, makes a little more sense, in order to get the free transports you have to take one the Auxiliary formations. Little bit more of a tax, but not too bad, just throw in 3 Librarian formation and roll.
Merellin wrote: So basicaly, Vanilla Marine scouts, Are now identical to space wolf Scouts, Exept for being cheeper..? Great..
Just like they used to be.
Except Space wolf scouts used to at least get a fun rule for going to the opponents board edge.
They dont have that anymore?
Nope.. Current Space Wolf Scouts are basicaly identical to regular marine scouts, Exept they have WS and BS 4, And they are Elite, and cost as much as a Grey Hunter.. And now regular marine scouts get all the bonuses Space Wolf scouts have, But they are cheeper and are troops..
Shamanlord1961 wrote: Ah, makes a little more sense, in order to get the free transports you have to take one the Auxiliary formations. Little bit more of a tax, but not too bad, just throw in 3 Librarian formation and roll.
Shamanlord1961 wrote: Ah, makes a little more sense, in order to get the free transports you have to take one the Auxiliary formations. Little bit more of a tax, but not too bad, just throw in 3 Librarian formation and roll.
Or 3 scout formation. They're awesome now!
True, didn't think about that one, been a little more focused on just throwing in Librarians for the fun of it.
The Scout formation would be cheaper also, if you are focusing on the full company.
Merellin wrote: So basicaly, Vanilla Marine scouts, Are now identical to space wolf Scouts, Exept for being cheeper..? Great..
Just like they used to be.
Except Space wolf scouts used to at least get a fun rule for going to the opponents board edge.
They dont have that anymore?
Nope.. Current Space Wolf Scouts are basicaly identical to regular marine scouts, Exept they have WS and BS 4, And they are Elite, and cost as much as a Grey Hunter.. And now regular marine scouts get all the bonuses Space Wolf scouts have, But they are cheeper and are troops..
I see some little text on the footnote about Tigurius and stuff. Am I guessing the German correctly, that you can replace the Chaplain with Tigurius (etc), and Captain with Lysander (etc)?
I see some little text on the footnote about Tigurius and stuff. Am I guessing the German correctly, that you can replace the Chaplain with Tigurius (etc), and Captain with Lysander (etc)?
Crazyterran wrote: The fact that you have to take an auxiliary means that running a full battle company might be a bit to expensive for 1500 and below...
The suppression force (WW+LS) looks to be the cheapest at 115. Might be something else, still running on 3rd hand info. Points might also have changed.
I think the Gladius is neat. It's open to crazy amounts of abuse, but ultimately it still comes down to whether you or your opponent wants to be "that guy" and ensure they have 500-700 more points through transports.
It's going to be very interesting to see how ITC handles this. The wording is that you have to take two demi-companies, but they don't allow duplications of a formation -- and even if they did you'd hit 3 sources just taking the full company, making it hard to stay at 1850 effectively.
We'll likely just see SM double-CAD at the tournament level.
There is a disturbing lack of non-formation auxiliary choices. I'll probably be forced to stick with a CAD. I don't mind buying a few models or vehicles to update to the new codex, it comes with the territory, but this seems to be the most restricive "decurion" so far.
Chapter Master is a Captain upgrade, so unless there's a restriction in the formation I don't see why you couldn't upgrade him.
With a separate character title and stat-line. Upgrade or not, a captain is not a chapter master and vice-versa. The formation specifically calls for a captain and allows every special character captain, but denies the CM equivalent. I'm sure people will argue for it, but RAW it's clear.
Note to those looking to build the full company that the librarium is a command selection not an auxilary, so won't satisfy the aux 1+ requirement. Scouts is probably the only fluffy/competitive option if you were going drop pod route. Anti air one or whirlwind one makes sense if doing razor spam
winterman wrote: Note to those looking to build the full company that the librarium is a command selection not an auxilary, so won't satisfy the aux 1+ requirement. Scouts is probably the only fluffy/competitive option if you were going drop pod route. Anti air one or whirlwind one makes sense if doing razor spam
If grav is really 20 points, instead of 35, it leaves plenty of points for double demi plus aux.
Ultramarines CT : Each doctrine Once per game (all models with CT)
Gladius : Each Doctrine once per game (all models with CT that are part of a Gladius) from the French book
Demi Company : Tactical Doctrine once per game (all models with CT that are part of the demi company) from the German book
That means with a full Ultramarine company, you get 2/2/2 army wide doctrines, +1 with Calgar, and 2 extra tactical doctrines that affects each demi-company once per game.
That's a whole lotta buffs. Though again, I'm thinking Iron Hands could be better, because FNP may be preferable to getting more buffs than you have turns to use (though the extra army-wide tactical doctrine is ace)
Chapter Master is a Captain upgrade, so unless there's a restriction in the formation I don't see why you couldn't upgrade him.
With a separate character title and stat-line. Upgrade or not, a captain is not a chapter master and vice-versa. The formation specifically calls for a captain and allows every special character captain, but denies the CM equivalent. I'm sure people will argue for it, but RAW it's clear.
It allows Khan and Vulkan though, who are clearly Chapter Masters.
Crimson Devil wrote: I may have missed this because I'm on my phone. Do tactical squads get heavy flamers?
It looks like the german gear page has #2 note on it, which says something about sternguard and LotD. So I’m guessing it’s still restricted like the last book.
winterman wrote: Note to those looking to build the full company that the librarium is a command selection not an auxilary, so won't satisfy the aux 1+ requirement. Scouts is probably the only fluffy/competitive option if you were going drop pod route. Anti air one or whirlwind one makes sense if doing razor spam
If grav is really 20 points, instead of 35, it leaves plenty of points for double demi plus aux.
True. Now all you gotta do is convince ITC to let you take two demi companies, cause as it stands now that is illegal at their events and any that follow their army build rules (like all the events in the PacNW that I know of...)
Has anyone seen anything about trading out Tactical Squads for Crusader Squads in the main Detatchment, or any BT formation beside what that first Command Formation is?
winterman wrote: Note to those looking to build the full company that the librarium is a command selection not an auxilary, so won't satisfy the aux 1+ requirement. Scouts is probably the only fluffy/competitive option if you were going drop pod route. Anti air one or whirlwind one makes sense if doing razor spam
If grav is really 20 points, instead of 35, it leaves plenty of points for double demi plus aux.
True. Now all you gotta do is convince ITC to let you take two demi companies, cause as it stands now that is illegal at their events and any that follow their army build rules (like all the events in the PacNW that I know of...)
Hey! You're stalking me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rybackstun wrote: Has anyone seen anything about trading out Tactical Squads for Crusader Squads in the main Detatchment, or any BT formation beside what that first Command Formation is?
It allows Khan and Vulkan though, who are clearly Chapter Masters.
Both wrong.
Vulkan He'stan - Former Captain of the 4th Company, He'stan now serves as the Chapter's current Forgefather. Tu'Shan is the Chapter Master.
Kor'sarro Khan is the Khan (Captain) of the 3rd Brotherhood (Company) of the White Scars Space Marine Chapter and is also the Chapter's current Master of the Hunt. Jubal Khan is the current chapter master.
Chapter Master is a Captain upgrade, so unless there's a restriction in the formation I don't see why you couldn't upgrade him.
With a separate character title and stat-line. Upgrade or not, a captain is not a chapter master and vice-versa. The formation specifically calls for a captain and allows every special character captain, but denies the CM equivalent. I'm sure people will argue for it, but RAW it's clear.
It allows Khan and Vulkan though, who are clearly Chapter Masters.
Except that neither of them are chapter masters and never have been. Have you read either of their fluff or even their titles?
docdoom77 wrote: There is a disturbing lack of non-formation auxiliary choices. I'll probably be forced to stick with a CAD. I don't mind buying a few models or vehicles to update to the new codex, it comes with the territory, but this seems to be the most restricive "decurion" so far.
Clearly you haven't seen the formations for the Eldar Warhost. At least the Space Marine codex formations appear to have something resembling flexibility!
docdoom77 wrote: There is a disturbing lack of non-formation auxiliary choices. I'll probably be forced to stick with a CAD. I don't mind buying a few models or vehicles to update to the new codex, it comes with the territory, but this seems to be the most restricive "decurion" so far.
Clearly you haven't seen the formations for the Eldar Warhost. At least the Space Marine codex formations appear to have something resembling flexibility!
I OWN that book. They do have auxilliary choices which are not formations, allowing you to bring a single units (Wraithknights for instance). Same with the Necrons. In these leaks, I have seen nothing similar in the Space Marine book.
Chapter Master is a Captain upgrade, so unless there's a restriction in the formation I don't see why you couldn't upgrade him.
With a separate character title and stat-line. Upgrade or not, a captain is not a chapter master and vice-versa. The formation specifically calls for a captain and allows every special character captain, but denies the CM equivalent. I'm sure people will argue for it, but RAW it's clear.
It allows Khan and Vulkan though, who are clearly Chapter Masters.
Except that neither of them are chapter masters and never have been. Have you read either of their fluff or even their titles?
Huh, guess not. I only have a cursory understanding of Marine characters, I was under the impression that those were Chapter Master characters.
Chapter Master is a Captain upgrade, so unless there's a restriction in the formation I don't see why you couldn't upgrade him.
With a separate character title and stat-line. Upgrade or not, a captain is not a chapter master and vice-versa. The formation specifically calls for a captain and allows every special character captain, but denies the CM equivalent. I'm sure people will argue for it, but RAW it's clear.
It allows Khan and Vulkan though, who are clearly Chapter Masters.
Except that neither of them are chapter masters and never have been. Have you read either of their fluff or even their titles?
Huh, guess not. I only have a cursory understanding of Marine characters, I was under the impression that those were Chapter Master characters.
No my friend, you think of Pedro Cantor, High Marshal Helbrect and Marneus Augustus Calgar. They are the name Chapter Masters of the book.
Hmm, only +10ppm for dual claws. Suddenly, running Shrike's Wing doesn't seem so insane! Or at least, cheap enough that my ultra-fluffy tastes can tolerate it!
I don't know if this was answered in the monster of this thread but.... All of those new "auxiliary" formations; Do you have to take a demi company to have access to them or are you allowed to take them piecemeal and only get the special gladius strike force if you take one with a demi company?
Paradigm wrote: Hmm, only +10ppm for dual claws. Suddenly, running Shrike's Wing doesn't seem so insane! Or at least, cheap enough that my ultra-fluffy tastes can tolerate it!
Hard to go wrong at 5ppm for power toys. I know I’m going to be emptying out my bitsbox onto my VVs. Axe/sword for as many as I can, probably some more LCs as well. The carnage they cause is going to be glorious.
Paradigm wrote: Hmm, only +10ppm for dual claws. Suddenly, running Shrike's Wing doesn't seem so insane! Or at least, cheap enough that my ultra-fluffy tastes can tolerate it!
Hard to go wrong at 5ppm for power toys. I know I’m going to be emptying out my bitsbox onto my VVs. Axe/sword for as many as I can, probably some more LCs as well. The carnage they cause is going to be glorious.
my CSM chosen are weeping right now. As are warptalons
Does the Razorback with the multi melta count as a Razorback, for the free transport formation? I'd much prefer those over TL Lascanons or heavy bolters.
My german is not so good anymore, and some translations don't make sense to me, but can you confirm that Ehrenklinge is a Relic Blade ? Because I only know ehren as honour.
Does anyone who can translate the equipment list know if Eviscerators can be taken by anyone else other than Assault Squads? Inquiring psychopathic Blood Angel Captains want to know!
Zewrath wrote: Does the Razorback with the multi melta count as a Razorback, for the free transport formation? I'd much prefer those over TL Lascanons or heavy bolters.
Only the vehicles are free, you need to pay for the upgrades. So you can take a base Razorback for free, but have to pay for the weaponry other than the Heavy Bolter.
If a Gladius Strike Force contains two Battle Demi-Companies, one of them with one Captain and the other a Chaplain, these two Battle Demi-Companies together form a Battle Company.
Each unit of the Battle Company which has the option of having a Rhino, a Razorback or a Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport vehicle as an option may take one of these three vehicles for free (the [Punktkosten for revaluations] and other options must still be paid as normal).
Incidentally, it would be horrible if you got them with free upgrades, because a 70 point tactical squad would give you a free 75 point vehicle >.<
Also: notice how nobody is talking about Assault Marines losing their free Drop Pod now?
Zewrath wrote: Does the Razorback with the multi melta count as a Razorback, for the free transport formation? I'd much prefer those over TL Lascanons or heavy bolters.
Only the vehicles are free, you need to pay for the upgrades. So you can take a base Razorback for free, but have to pay for the weaponry other than the Heavy Bolter.
I know but does the multi melta razorback actually COUNT as a razorback? Or is it a special kind of razorback? If it it's called 'melta pattern razorback' then it wouldn't actually count, from a RAW POV, as the razorback that is available for free in the formation.
Am I making sense? Not sure how I should explain it otherwise.
Paradigm wrote: Does anyone who can translate the equipment list know if Eviscerators can be taken by anyone else other than Assault Squads? Inquiring psychopathic Blood Angel Captains want to know!
Also, Dread squadrons... Yeeaaah!
I think Dreadnoughts need Dreadnought-sized Eviscerators
My german is not so good anymore, and some translations don't make sense to me, but can you confirm that Ehrenklinge is a Relic Blade ? Because I only know ehren as honour.
Yes. Relic blade = Ehrenklinge. Though you are right, the precise translation would be honour blade.
Zewrath wrote: I know but does the multi melta razorback actually COUNT as a razorback? Or is it a special kind of razorback? If it it's called 'melta pattern razorback' then it wouldn't actually count, from a RAW POV, as the razorback that is available for free in the formation.
Am I making sense? Not sure how I should explain it otherwise.
I took it out of the translation because it was obvious, but the original German version contained page numbers for Rhino, Razorback and Drop Pod.
So assuming the Razorback options haven't changed, you can pick from TL Heavy Bolter (free), TL Heavy Flamer (free), or for 20 points, any of the following: TL Assault Cannon, TL Lascannon or Lascannon and twinlinked plasma gun.
The best option would either be las or las/plas, depending on how you want to play them. Of course, you get to either kitbash/convert or buy pricey part from forgeworld if the case is the latter
Talys wrote: Also: notice how nobody is talking about Assault Marines losing their free Drop Pod now?
Or how they got 3 ppm cheaper?
Not really. They just separated them from the jump packs for 3 ppm. Exactly the same as before with Jump Packs, more expensive with a drop pod.
A little different with Gladius though:
Before: 85 for 5 with free drop pod. 170 for 10 with free drop pod.
CAD or Single Det: 105 for 5 with drop pod. 175 for 10 with drop pod.
Full Company: 70 for 5 with drop pod. 140 for 10 with drop pod.
Talys wrote: Also: notice how nobody is talking about Assault Marines losing their free Drop Pod now?
Or how they got 3 ppm cheaper?
Not really. They just separated them from the jump packs for 3 ppm. Exactly the same as before with Jump Packs, more expensive with a drop pod.
A little different with Gladius though:
Before: 85 for 5 with free drop pod. 170 for 10 with free drop pod.
CAD or Single Det: 105 for 5 with drop pod. 175 for 10 with drop pod.
Full Company: 70 for 5 with drop pod. 140 for 10 with drop pod.
The free transports formation definitely changes things, but I don't see myself ever running it. There's buying more models for a new codex and theres buying MORE models for a new codex, ya know?
Zewrath wrote: I know but does the multi melta razorback actually COUNT as a razorback? Or is it a special kind of razorback? If it it's called 'melta pattern razorback' then it wouldn't actually count, from a RAW POV, as the razorback that is available for free in the formation.
Am I making sense? Not sure how I should explain it otherwise.
I took it out of the translation because it was obvious, but the original German version contained page numbers for Rhino, Razorback and Drop Pod.
So assuming the Razorback options haven't changed, you can pick from TL Heavy Bolter (free), TL Heavy Flamer (free), or for 20 points, any of the following: TL Assault Cannon, TL Lascannon or Lascannon and twinlinked plasma gun.
The best option would either be las or las/plas, depending on how you want to play them. Of course, you get to either kitbash/convert or buy pricey part from forgeworld if the case is the latter
Fair enough, that does seem air tight.
Assault cannon spam it is then!!!
Paradigm wrote: Does anyone who can translate the equipment list know if Eviscerators can be taken by anyone else other than Assault Squads? Inquiring psychopathic Blood Angel Captains want to know!
The section on close combat weapons says as follows:
Close Combat Weapons-list
a model may replace its bolter, bolt pistol and/or close combat weapon with one of the following weapons:
Chainsword
Power claw (Lightning Claw)
Power Weapon
Power Fist
Power Hammer (Thunder Hammer)
So is Telion an HQIC or in another slot? People keep saying he's an IC instead of an upgrade, but can I just run Telion + 2 scout squads in a cheap Scout army?
Yodhrin wrote: Do we have clarity yet on whether the Librarius formation can be taken outside the "Decurion"?
It's safe to say, that since it is a formation, you can absolutely run it outside the "decurion." It's only non-formation auxilliaries that cannot be taken outside of "decurion style" formations.
Paradigm wrote: Does anyone who can translate the equipment list know if Eviscerators can be taken by anyone else other than Assault Squads? Inquiring psychopathic Blood Angel Captains want to know!
The section on close combat weapons says as follows:
Close Combat Weapons-list
a model may replace its bolter, bolt pistol and/or close combat weapon with one of the following weapons:
Chainsword
Power claw (Lightning Claw)
Power Weapon
Power Fist
Power Hammer (Thunder Hammer)
I’m hoping it’s a line item purchase for captains. Similar to relics blades. Not holding my breath though at this point. Might need to make a new pair of arms. <sigh>
Requizen wrote: So is Telion an HQIC or in another slot? People keep saying he's an IC instead of an upgrade, but can I just run Telion + 2 scout squads in a cheap Scout army?
Yodhrin wrote: Do we have clarity yet on whether the Librarius formation can be taken outside the "Decurion"?
It's safe to say, that since it is a formation, you can absolutely run it outside the "decurion." It's only non-formation auxilliaries that cannot be taken outside of "decurion style" formations.
Yodhrin wrote: Do we have clarity yet on whether the Librarius formation can be taken outside the "Decurion"?
All formations can be taken as stand-alones outside the Detachments.
Brilliant thanks. One last question; is there any sign of a freely-available formation based around Centurions? I'd love to be able to represent all my planned Mechanicus factions without having to pay a Troops tax.
Yodhrin wrote: One last question; is there any sign of a freely-available formation based around Centurions? I'd love to be able to represent all my planned Mechanicus factions without having to pay a Troops tax.
From the looks of it, taking one of the Chapter Masters is an auxiliary formation of some sort, am I correct? It looks like you can take one of them and 0-1 Command Squads and 0-1 Honour Guard. Sucks, because I would rather have just taken Pedro instead of a Captain.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the looks of it, taking one of the Chapter Masters is an auxiliary formation of some sort, am I correct? It looks like you can take one of them and 0-1 Command Squads and 0-1 Honour Guard. Sucks, because I would rather have just taken Pedro instead of a Captain.
Kind of matches the LOW changes in other books. They want the biggest hero characters to be rare and for there to be a lower level leader on the field.
Also, I wonder how people will rule the Raptors Chapter Tactics. Currently it reads:
Strike from the Shadows (as per the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic in Codex: Space Marines): Models in this detachment have the Scout special rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in the detachment have the Stealth special rule. Note that units which contain models with any variant of the Bulky special rule do not benefit from either rule.
It's written out with the old rules, yet says "as per Raven Guard Chapter Tactic in Codex: Space Marines". This wouldn't be the first time the rules conflicted, especially when GW updates something that FW references. I wonder how ITC or other organizations would rule it.
Requizen wrote: Also, I wonder how people will rule the Raptors Chapter Tactics. Currently it reads:
Strike from the Shadows (as per the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic in Codex: Space Marines): Models in this detachment have the Scout special rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in the detachment have the Stealth special rule. Note that units which contain models with any variant of the Bulky special rule do not benefit from either rule.
It's written out with the old rules, yet says "as per Raven Guard Chapter Tactic in Codex: Space Marines". This wouldn't be the first time the rules conflicted, especially when GW updates something that FW references. I wonder how ITC or other organizations would rule it.
That entire FW list being technically out dated, probably will need some heavy Housing and FAQs.
casvalremdeikun wrote: From the looks of it, taking one of the Chapter Masters is an auxiliary formation of some sort, am I correct? It looks like you can take one of them and 0-1 Command Squads and 0-1 Honour Guard. Sucks, because I would rather have just taken Pedro instead of a Captain.
Kind of matches the LOW changes in other books. They want the biggest hero characters to be rare and for there to be a lower level leader on the field.
That is true. Though I may be willing to give up ObSec on everyone and just take a CAD. Pedro needs his Sternguard. And since he comes stock with FNP, I will run him with a beatstick unit. Still going to replace my two LS Typhoons with a squad of Grav Bikes eventually, but this made me not have to buy a third Tactical Squad and Rhino. I want my buffed scouts out there too.
Requizen wrote: Also, I wonder how people will rule the Raptors Chapter Tactics. Currently it reads:
Strike from the Shadows (as per the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic in Codex: Space Marines): Models in this detachment have the Scout special rule. In addition, on the first game turn, models in the detachment have the Stealth special rule. Note that units which contain models with any variant of the Bulky special rule do not benefit from either rule.
It's written out with the old rules, yet says "as per Raven Guard Chapter Tactic in Codex: Space Marines". This wouldn't be the first time the rules conflicted, especially when GW updates something that FW references. I wonder how ITC or other organizations would rule it.
That entire FW list being technically out dated, probably will need some heavy Housing and FAQs.
Not really. The rest of the chapter tactics either have their own rules written out or just tell you to use one of the book rules. Raptors are the only ones that specifically list a book Chapter Tactic and also have it written out like that.
I sitll dont understand how OS works with a demi company.
is EVERYTHING in the demi-company OS? or just the things that were already OS (what i was reading it as), but troops being OS is only defined in a CAD i thought so they wouldnt necessarily be OS here would they?
ALso would a captain on a bike make the bike squad in that slot in a demi OS?
OS is normally only for a CAD. The Demi company (and battle company) are also OS. This means OS jump marines, dreads, dedicated transports, and even the captain/chapter master.
Raven Guard gets screwed over even harder. Observe:
1) Shrike has Infiltrate.
2) Shrike can only join Jump Infantry during deployment.
3) Per the Rules FAQ, an IC without Infiltrate cannot join a unit with Infiltrate, and vice versa.
4) Neither of the Jump Infantry units in the codex have Infiltrate
Conclusion: Shrike cannot join any unit during deployment.
tetrisphreak wrote: OS is normally only for a CAD. The Demi company (and battle company) are also OS. This means OS jump marines, dreads, dedicated transports, and even the captain/chapter master.
Unfortunately, this is incorrect. Objective Secured as defined in the BRB only applies to troops choices. The only additional units that Objective Secured confers upon are dedicated transports taken for troops choices.
Suddenly, all those free transports are looking mighty nice...
Just saw this on the LS Storm, Drop Pod goes where??
Jamming Beacon
"Enemies that scatter when Deep Striking within 12" of a model with this special rule roll double the number dice to determine the scatter distance."
tetrisphreak wrote: OS is normally only for a CAD. The Demi company (and battle company) are also OS. This means OS jump marines, dreads, dedicated transports, and even the captain/chapter master.
Unfortunately, this is incorrect. Objective Secured as defined in the BRB only applies to troops choices. The only additional units that Objective Secured confers upon are dedicated transports taken for troops choices.
Suddenly, all those free transports are looking mighty nice...
That's not how it works. In a CAD, the benefit is just for Troops. It even says for troops. For the Demi-Company detachment, it's for everyone. Look:
Says two demi-companies together form a battle company. Look forward to seeing how this is ruled since it could be argued as being a single formation from both the way it is worded and that it is inside a single detachment
(Since a lot of TOs don't allow duplicate formations within an army)
tetrisphreak wrote: OS is normally only for a CAD. The Demi company (and battle company) are also OS. This means OS jump marines, dreads, dedicated transports, and even the captain/chapter master.
Unfortunately, this is incorrect. Objective Secured as defined in the BRB only applies to troops choices. The only additional units that Objective Secured confers upon are dedicated transports taken for troops choices.
Suddenly, all those free transports are looking mighty nice...
No, you are wrong. CAD gives troops OS, but OS is not limited as a troops only rule. The Demi company grants OS to the entire formation. See also skyblight gargoyles - a fast attack choice that is granted OS by a formation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jSewell wrote: Says two demi-companies together form a battle company. Look forward to seeing how this is ruled since it could be argued as being a single formation from both the way it is worded and that it is inside a single detachment
(Since a lot of TOs don't allow duplicate formations within an army)
These new space marine dreadnoughts are better than the Blood Angels ones in just about every way. The 100 pt dread has as many attacks as a death company dread, for 25 less pts. Not going to lie, I'm a bit salty.
Yeah, it allows Tiggy. And 2 obsec demi-companies to form a single company is crazy good for missions objective missions. Sad thing is I think I have everything I'd want to use for that except for the Grav Devs....
buddha wrote: I'm also liking the land raider formation for battle brothers like skitarii.
It's expensive, but 3 LRs ignoring everything but Explodes single handedly makes Electro-Priests really, really good. And you could even throw in Ruststalkers in there.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. OR they could've fixed the core problem of those units. Just making vehicles free isn't fixing the problem when you want to do something like a CAD.
2. Except you completely miss the point about Eldar. Serpentspam isn't the issue. It's the level of balance. There's literally no point to any other troop choice than Scatterbikes. Admit it.
3. I shouldn't HAVE to ally with ANYTHING. Codices are supposed to be standalone forces. You're telling us that we need to buy other armies. That's not how it's supposed to work. Allies should compliment a force, not fix the glaring holes.
4. Nobody is asking for Marines to solo monstrous creatures. Quit the strawman and actually answer the complaints.
1. As I and other people have stated, this would not help the plight of the basic space marine. In 40k there are vehicles that can crush them, big weapons that can vaporize them, and creatures that dwarf space marines in every way and can just squish them. Space marines are better-than-basic infantry, and no infantry is meant to survive the large machines of war.
2. I would say that Windriders are the best troop choice, but not necessarily scatter lasers as their weapon. What has that got to do with anything? They still either have the choice to die or jink.. And anyways, Eldar are millions of years more advanced than humans, so they get some nice bikes. It's not like you can win with just the nice bikes. And they're still way weaker and harder to play than Wave Serpents, in skill-less noob spam armies.
3. Well, look. You're buying 1850 points. So it's not like it's costing you more. And I'm not saying that you CAN'T play space marines by themselves; I'm saying if SM were as powerful as Eldar by themselves, with battle brothers, they'd be an unstoppable force. Which would be terrible. It's your choice whether you want to ally or not -- it's a fact that allies make Space Marines and Eldar more powerful; avail yourself of the option or not. It's part of the game.
4. It's not a straw man argument at all. Half the game can destroy anything without the types of saves that are associated with monstrous creatures, characters with special stuff, or psychic abilities. Terminators have great armor. Even invulnerable saves! Guess what, they still crumple like paper. To "fix" space marines in the sense of making every one of the 1000 of the chapter heroic, you would literally need to make them so powerful that they'd cost a hundred points a model. And then since Aspect Warriors are even MORE powerful, those would cost like, two hundred points a model. And what would be the point? Because ultimately, a Titan or a fortification going kaboom, still should kill a Space Marine with no effort.
You know, kinda like Green Beret charges Abrams, Abrams rolls over Green Beret, movie ends. It doesn't matter how genetically enhanced and awesome the Green Beret is, he was never meant to go charge the tank. That's why he and his other 4 buddies have their own (smaller) tank! Which now, they don't have to pay separately for. Yay. Or you know, you can just say screw the elite forces, and take your own tank. Or 3, and then go kaboom and leave a big crater. Yay again!
Happy times.
1. They're outclassed by other infantry. Looking "elite" is not the same AS actually being elite. You have people that whine over ATSKNF and grenades, but the former doesn't get used because they die quickly and the latter never gets used because you'd have to be a REALLY bad player to have a Tactical Marine charge your Wave Serpent.
2. You actually aren't serious are you? Scatterbikes put out more shots than Wave Serpents for the points and still have a ridiculous range.
3. So you're admitting that the codices are just poorly written. If you absolutely have to ally in something because the core army you WANT to play is that weak, there's a glaring problem in the codex writing. Eldar and Necrons do not have this problem, and they're singular armies. Space Marines are a singular army and SHOULD be able to hold their own. Except they can't.
4. This isn't tanks we're dealing with. We're dealing with Necron Warriors and Scatterbikes.
