Crimson Devil wrote: You know it is funny that the White Scars and Iron Hands have two of the most popular chapter tactics yet their Limited Editions are two of the last to sell out in the US. lol
A lot of us bought the Iron Hands special edition last time around, for myself I thought I was rewarding GW for finally paying the chapter some attention, which is technically true, if "gutting the chapter's background of everything that made the fans like them in the first place and turning them into a chapter of petty passive-aggressive spankers" counts as attention.
I doubt many will be making the same mistake twice.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Unlike eldar, where everything got turned up to 12, marines seem to be staying about the same as the last book.
Oh, I wouldn't count GW out just yet
There have essentially been zero leaks, and we already know that SM get 35 point drop pods in the FA slot -- that's huge, all by itself. Cuts down the need to ally for taxi service and in a competitive space lets you take another ally detachment. Also, Devastators (and probably Tacs) can get Grav Cannons with amps, which is potentially huge (points cost matters, and special rules & formations matter even more). ASM lost the free drop pod, and barring some amazing formation, will probably still suck... but who plays vanilla Space Marines and takes ASM.
Oh yes, and we also know that it's possible to run the same Combat Doctrines more than once, another potentially massive buff. How many times have Ultramarines won on their CTs? Now, just imagine, they can use the same CT again. If you could get Relentless 2-3 times, Devastators suddenly look a lot better. If you can reroll all failed hits on Tacticals a few times, they don't look so bad anymore.
There are tank squads that will do Special Things, but we don't know what. Some of them might be good. But all it takes is for GW to underestimate ONE buffed unit/formation/combination, and there goes the farm.
Are you still talking about Dark Angels? You are such a joker!
Formosa wrote: Thats because you know the fluff, the fluff means nothing to someone looking at the shelf and seeing feudal knights and knights templar, all they will see is 2 slightly different types of knight, both with robes, tabards etc.
Unlike,say, Blood Angels and normal marines. If you look at the shelf, you will see red marines and other color marines and therefore instantly get the huge difference between the two armies.
Are you still talking about Dark Angels? You are such a joker!
Formosa wrote: Thats because you know the fluff, the fluff means nothing to someone looking at the shelf and seeing feudal knights and knights templar, all they will see is 2 slightly different types of knight, both with robes, tabards etc.
Unlike,say, Blood Angels and normal marines. If you look at the shelf, you will see red marines and other color marines and therefore instantly get the huge difference between the two armies.
Not sure if serious... but by looking at Blood Angels, you see red marines looking angry, swinging lots of sharp things around, with blood everywhere. That's enough to get the basic gist of the army.
Got my Dark Angels transfer sheet today- Beautiful doesn't do it justice. Truly awesome stuff they're knocking out at GW towers decals wise. No more of this silly fething cutting around the transfers nonsense for me. Looks like you can be as rough-arsed as you like now, as they've only coated the images and not the entire sheet they're on.
I can very, very easily build a normal marine army where lots of people are swinging a lot of sharp things around, and a blood angel army where almost nobody swings sharp things around. Actually, I remember facing blood angel armies where I literally only saw some vehicles in front of me. And those that were transport carried people with more guns than sharp stuff.
Also, if we are using this as an argument, Black Templar can have their basic units literally full of people swinging chainsaws around. while dark angels are not that much about chainsawing people.
So, you are putting blood everywhere on your blood angels? Does that not look a bit… ridiculous and too much over the top? In a bad way?
Seriously, I cannot see how Black Templar could be considered too close from Dark Angels visually, while the Blood Angels are considered visually different enough from normal marines.
Just got my BA decal sheet in the post and am a bit confused....no regular marine sized shoulder pad chapter markings? Theres terminator and scout sizes but no regular. WTF?
Floyd73 wrote: Just got my BA decal sheet in the post and am a bit confused....no regular marine sized shoulder pad chapter markings? Theres terminator and scout sizes but no regular. WTF?
Umm.. They aren't strictly for terminators. Those will fit on tac squads too.
Floyd73 wrote: Just got my BA decal sheet in the post and am a bit confused....no regular marine sized shoulder pad chapter markings? Theres terminator and scout sizes but no regular. WTF?
Umm.. They aren't strictly for terminators. Those will fit on tac squads too.
Thanks. Not too happy they've increased the size, the old sizing was perfect.
Besides as a BA player, I'm not sure what there is to complain about in that regard since you've been showered with shiny shiny bling shoulder pads in all your chapter specific stuff lol.
Are you still talking about Dark Angels? You are such a joker!
Formosa wrote: Thats because you know the fluff, the fluff means nothing to someone looking at the shelf and seeing feudal knights and knights templar, all they will see is 2 slightly different types of knight, both with robes, tabards etc.
Unlike,say, Blood Angels and normal marines. If you look at the shelf, you will see red marines and other color marines and therefore instantly get the huge difference between the two armies.
Not sure if serious... but by looking at Blood Angels, you see red marines looking angry, swinging lots of sharp things around, with blood everywhere. That's enough to get the basic gist of the army.
Yeah not sure if serious too.
Wolves at first glance: vikings in space
Blood angels at first glance: renaissance looking, blood obsessed, angelic
Dark angels at first glance: monastic knights, robes, cool looking knight characters.
Ultramarines at first glance: Romans in space
Black templars at first glance: robes, knights templar, cool looking knight characters.
All told to me by my niece, and she know nothing about 40k, this is how I came to the conclusion in the first place.
Iuchiban from Warseer (the one that spoiled many rules from several codices before they had been released) is going to post scan from his new Space Marines codex. He's at work not and will be back later this day
I can very, very easily build a normal marine army where lots of people are swinging a lot of sharp things around, and a blood angel army where almost nobody swings sharp things around. Actually, I remember facing blood angel armies where I literally only saw some vehicles in front of me. And those that were transport carried people with more guns than sharp stuff.
Also, if we are using this as an argument, Black Templar can have their basic units literally full of people swinging chainsaws around. while dark angels are not that much about chainsawing people.
You've missed the fething point. Of the Blood Angels specific units, how many of them involve hacking the enemy to bits, or getting very close to set them on fire? So what if you can build your close combat orientated army into a gunline?
So, you are putting blood everywhere on your blood angels? Does that not look a bit… ridiculous and too much over the top? In a bad way?
Seriously, I cannot see how Black Templar could be considered too close from Dark Angels visually, while the Blood Angels are considered visually different enough from normal marines.
1) This is 40k, where fascist psychopaths drive around in futuristic tanks to hit people with a sword. OTT is the status quo. 2) I was actually referring to the names and the iconography. Blood Angels (like Space Wolves and their wolfy stuff) have a lot of things with 'blood' in their name, and all of their upgrade kits have a drop of blood somewhere.
3) Because the distinction between Teutonic knights and Knights Templar is lost on most people, but insane BLOOD marines are different enough from the Roman style Ultramarines.
I have seen the new Marine Codex the command tanks are not in it. Tac Squads can take Grav, All dreadnoughts now have 4 base attacks. Only LOW is Calgar. No master of the Forge but Techmarines can take Conversion Beamers. Iron Hand Chapter Tactics now add +1 to feel no pain. Raven Guard lost Scout but now get Shrouded turn 1 and +1 to roll for Night fight. Most others stay similar. Any other questions i'll try my best to answer.
Sallies get 4+ FNP against flame weapons and preroll to wound with them. Scars can no longer scout land raiders. Templars can't take Librarians and get rage if they take damage from shooting the previous turn or overwatch. Bolter Drill can use special ammo now. Tac Doctrine lets tac squads reroll all hits in shooting and assault.
Formations looked ok nothing amazing. The termi one can DS from turn 1. No assault marine formation. Bike are troops if you take any HQ on a bike, no need to be five man now. Temis squads of both kinds got a 5 point drop but THSS cost the same as before after buying the upgrade for them. Centurions are pretty much the same. Ultras get the 3 doctrines other chapters can use the tac one once a game if they take the decurian which is call Gladius Strike force.
no change in relics
Templars get counter attack too after getting shot. Other armies only get the tac doc if they take the extra expensive formations. The docs look a lot better Ultras probably have the best chapter tactics still. Twin links grav centurions in pods seems scary. Chapter Master is now an upgrade for a captain.
Basically they all allow to reroll ones for either shooting or assault depending on which one it is. Tacs reroll everything for the tac doc. Assault marines and assault centurions reroll all hits in combat for assault. Devs and Dev centurions reroll shooting to hit for theirs.
More from B&C
-Templars get counter attack too after getting shot.
-Other armies (not UM) only get the tac doc if they take the extra expensive formations.
-The docs look a lot better Ultras probably have the best chapter tactics still.Twin links grav centurions in pods seems scarey.
-Chapter Master is now an upgrade for a captain.
And regarding doctrines
Basically they all allow to reroll ones for either shooting or assault depending on which one it is. Tacs reroll everything for the tac doc. Assault marines and assault centurions reroll all hits in combat for assault. Devs and Dev centurions reroll shooting to hit for theirs.
[User comment, not from B&C source Russ] So,from what i understand of it,the UM trait IS the doctrines,one use each as in the old codex.If an UM army uses the formations that enables other chapters use the doctrines,they get more uses instead.
The best formation from what I saw is strike force ultra. Can arrive turn 1 get +1 shot if ds or +1 a if assault from a vehicle.
All vehicles can squadron you get bonus if you take 3. Whirlwinds get shred and pinning. Preds get monster and tank hunter.
Again,B&C
-Honour Guard are still there can be in units of 10 and can take raiders as transport.
-There is a Raider formation.
-Both anti air tanks got better, the stalker can fire twice at 2 targets or can be twin linked.
-Signum no change.
-Vanguard can reroll charge distance,1 or both dice,and ignore disordered charge.
-Most Character stayed the same,
-Emperor's Champion got a buff always s6 ap2 now.
-Telion is now a HQ.He is an IC.
-So is Cronos,he has 2 wounds and can join a unit if his tank is destroyed.
-Techmarines all have 2 wounds now.
-TFC can be taken in squadrons, if you have 3 you get +1 BS.
Same source as above
-Calgar can pick his Warlord Trait from the marine list the best one being FNP.
- Shrike and any jump unit he joins can infiltrate.
-Vulcan master crafts melt weapons.
-Khan gives scout to bikes rhinos and razors.
-No Iron Hand character.
-Lysander has 4 wounds and Eternal warrior still and Fist or Dorn is +6S. Fist is still unwieldy.
-Kantor makes Sternguards objective secured
-Helbrecth gives all units Hatred and Fleet once per game.
-Sicarius lets you effect reserves and give one tac squad a usr.
-Kahn, Sicarius and Him still only ap3.
-Honour Guard and Command Squads are Elites now you don't need characters to take them.
-All termis are 5 cheaper THSS upgrade is 5 points more.
-You can take a librarian formation where one librarian can know any of the powers the others have if they don't cast and warp charges are on 3+
Looks like I might have to do my counts as Deathwatch army, since bolter drill is rumored to count for special ammo.
Love how Bolter and Chainsword shut down the rumor thread that the guy was answering questions on. The Mods there are such tools. They aren't cool like the Mods here.
Looks like I might have to do my counts as Deathwatch army, since bolter drill is rumored to count for special ammo.
Bleh, I know. Last edition, Scout made them fairly worthwhile except that Kahn did the same thing for Scars... now they don't have it and he still does it. So much for being the sneaky, first strike type army. Shrouded turn 1 isn't bad... but that's pretty gakky compared to some of the other ones. Shrike looks somewhat better, I guess.
I hope they're missing something :\
I'd probably go Ultramarines (well, a successor) at this point.
Did UM Dev tactics lose Relentless plus reroll snapshots Tactics-wide? (Sure, twinlink devs is by-the-numbers better, but feels a lot less... awesome.)
SickSix wrote: Sounds like SM will be rolling heavy on the HS options now. I might actually have to get a third Predator and a 3rd Vindicator.
It’s not like the HS slot wasn’t crowded before. It will be interesting to see if the squadron bonuses are going to be worth the points dedicated to getting 3x the units. It’s going to end up being a chunk of your army sunk in big units. For the cheaper tanks, sure. But even with the bonuses, I don’t see taking 3x preds or vindis.
Looks like I might have to do my counts as Deathwatch army, since bolter drill is rumored to count for special ammo.
Love how Bolter and Chainsword shut down the rumor thread that the guy was answering questions on. The Mods there are such tools. They aren't cool like the Mods here.
I facepalmed. You have a guy with an early codex for the faction you've built your website for, and they shut down the thread. Some people need to be a little less precious about discussion of toy soldiers on the internets.
SickSix wrote: Sounds like SM will be rolling heavy on the HS options now. I might actually have to get a third Predator and a 3rd Vindicator.
I know. Monster Hunter and Tank Hunter on the Preds will make for some easy Wraithknight murder.
3 TLLC plus 6 LC shots rerolling sounds? Yes please!
Yes, but is it 420 points (give or take, if they get changed) good? Without splitfire you only get to shoot one thing a turn. Sure, you are going to vaporize it, but how many things require that level of firepower? Facing a list without a giant juicy target, you are going to have problems. Plus you have the problems that face preds these days, weak side/back armor, the ability to move/fire effectively, etc.
I think a trio of whirlwinds at ~200 points is going to end up being a more practical option for most play. OtTFCs. Possibly the AA tanks.
I was thinking about the low end preds and wondering if there was a place for them in a squadron? 3x Dakka preds (AC/HB) is less then 300 points (current pricing) and can put a lot of shots downrange. Does the addition of monster/tank hunter make it more worthwhile? Is 225 too overpriced for 3 naked preds with just the ACs up top? It will be interesting to get the new book and get into details.
SickSix wrote: Sounds like SM will be rolling heavy on the HS options now. I might actually have to get a third Predator and a 3rd Vindicator.
I know. Monster Hunter and Tank Hunter on the Preds will make for some easy Wraithknight murder.
3 TLLC plus 6 LC shots rerolling sounds? Yes please!
Yes, but is it 420 points (give or take, if they get changed) good? Without splitfire you only get to shoot one thing a turn. Sure, you are going to vaporize it, but how many things require that level of firepower? Facing a list without a giant juicy target, you are going to have problems. Plus you have the problems that face preds these days, weak side/back armor, the ability to move/fire effectively, etc.
I think a trio of whirlwinds at ~200 points is going to end up being a more practical option for most play. OtTFCs. Possibly the AA tanks.
I was thinking about the low end preds and wondering if there was a place for them in a squadron? 3x Dakka preds (AC/HB) is less then 300 points (current pricing) and can put a lot of shots downrange. Does the addition of monster/tank hunter make it more worthwhile? Is 225 too overpriced for 3 naked preds with just the ACs up top? It will be interesting to get the new book and get into details.
Allegedly the AA tanks have Interceptor and the Stalker has Ignore Cover while in a squadron. For 225 pts, that is a pretty good anti-air platform. You are right about the Predator, but not a whole lot of stuff is going to get behind it before it annihilates(ha) multiple targets. If Squadrons don't have to fire at the same target, you could actually do some useful stuff.
I am actually looking forward to Bolted Drill affecting Sternguard Special Ammunition. Best little change to the IF Tactics.
Allegedly the AA tanks have Interceptor and the Stalker has Ignore Cover while in a squadron. For 225 pts, that is a pretty good anti-air platform. You are right about the Predator, but not a whole lot of stuff is going to get behind it before it annihilates(ha) multiple targets. If Squadrons don't have to fire at the same target, you could actually do some useful stuff.
I am actually looking forward to Bolted Drill affecting Sternguard Special Ammunition. Best little change to the IF Tactics.
If by “best little change” you mean “making one of the better units in the codex even better” I’m there with you. Bolter drill eliminates most of the problem with vengeance rounds, and turns hellfire into “all hits, all wounds, make a zillion armor saves” (OK that’s a slight exaggeration, but close) I’m not going to re-paint my army or anything, but if that’s true, I’m a little envious of the Sons of Dorn.
Which is wrong. Ultramarines’ sin is pride, not envy.
I like that techmarines are 2 wounds now like the other non-chain of command specialists like librarians and chaplains. Too bad that doesn't apply retroactively to BA and SW though.
I'm starting to regret my Special Edition purchase, too, although not as much as I would if I were a Raven Guard player. From all reports, it doesn't sound like a whole lot got changed. I was certainly expecting a better Assault Squad with the new box, but instead we ended up with an already bad unit getting a slight nerf, and now Raven Guard with already bad Chapter Tactics taking a slight nerf as well. I really wish someone would post more details about the Decurion detachment and the various Formations, to see if that at least is worthwhile.
Allegedly the AA tanks have Interceptor and the Stalker has Ignore Cover while in a squadron. For 225 pts, that is a pretty good anti-air platform. You are right about the Predator, but not a whole lot of stuff is going to get behind it before it annihilates(ha) multiple targets. If Squadrons don't have to fire at the same target, you could actually do some useful stuff.
I am actually looking forward to Bolted Drill affecting Sternguard Special Ammunition. Best little change to the IF Tactics.
If by “best little change” you mean “making one of the better units in the codex even better” I’m there with you. Bolter drill eliminates most of the problem with vengeance rounds, and turns hellfire into “all hits, all wounds, make a zillion armor saves” (OK that’s a slight exaggeration, but close) I’m not going to re-paint my army or anything, but if that’s true, I’m a little envious of the Sons of Dorn.
Which is wrong. Ultramarines’ sin is pride, not envy.
Speaking of Ultramarines, I wish I saw that thread before they locked it; I need to know how Tigurius changes.
The most used Special Character in Codex: Space Marines, and nobody asks about him. Gahh.
Chief Librarian Mephiston wrote: I'm starting to regret my Special Edition purchase, too, although not as much as I would if I were a Raven Guard player. From all reports, it doesn't sound like a whole lot got changed. I was certainly expecting a better Assault Squad with the new box, but instead we ended up with an already bad unit getting a slight nerf, and now Raven Guard with already bad Chapter Tactics taking a slight nerf as well. I really wish someone would post more details about the Decurion detachment and the various Formations, to see if that at least is worthwhile.
The guy who has done most of the previous Codex leaks on Warseer has the SM codex, and there's another guy on there doing things now.
Leman Russ SW on Warseer:
Only Calgar is LOW all others are HQ
Raven Guard get shrouded till the start of turn 2
Jump packs can still be used for movement and assault and get rerolls, I believe all units and Dreadnoughts get shrouded but not 100%
>Are Honor guards' rules changed? Do they still come with Art. armor, bolter, pistol and Power weapon? Thanks in advance, Leman Russ SW!
Still the same, get raider as transport, units of up to 10, can take relic blades and Champion can take Hammer.
If you take a full company all dedicated transports are free
You have to take a Demi company which is Captain or Chaplian, 3 Tac Squads, 1 Dev Squad or Dev Centurion Squad, one Assault, bike or Assault Centurion Squad then you can take different Auxiliary detachments. The Demi Company allows you to use the Tactical Doctrine once per game. Most of the Auxiliary detachment can be take on their own as a formation.
Didn't check scout bikes, if you take the scout formation they all get precision shot first turn and any turn they don't do anything they get shrouded.
Only Compulsory in gladius is a demi company, there are lots of auxiliaries you can take. No free stuff unless you take a full company then you get free dedicated transport.
Gadius is the name of the Decurion style formation the only thing you have to take is a demi company there are lots of options to take most of the stuff in the codex with it. heavy bolsters are not free neither is flakk.
While the pts drop on Termies is welcomed, I think the biggest issue with them whether or not they're still stuck at only 1 heavy weapon unless they go for the full 10 man squad... if they could take 2 heavies for 6-10 strong squads, that would most certainly help significantly boost them back into seeing regular table time.
Looks like this will help people be happier with the Eldar Dex - oh wait...............
Wonder why they took out Master of the Forge?
Looks a pretty lazy update?
Would have been nice for First Founding Chapters like Raven Guard and Salamanders to get a single signature unique unit - we Know they have stealth squads and elite Terminators respectively................
When you make the regular techmarine 2 wounds and give him the conversion beamer access, I suspect you pretty much covered 95% of why folks took the master of the forge. The tech will be a MOTF in all but probably one stat like LD or attacks.
I hope they didn't make the Command Squad have to take the Company Champion and Apothecary like the BA Command Squad. I have no desire to take the stupid Company Champion. If the rumor is true and they are Elites, it kinda sucks but at least I can run a Command Squad with Pedro Kantor without having to take a Captain.
Edit: From the user's response, it looks like the Apothecary and Champ are still upgrades, so that is great.
When you make the regular techmarine 2 wounds and give him the conversion beamer access, I suspect you pretty much covered 95% of why folks took the master of the forge. The tech will be a MOTF in all but probably one stat like LD or attacks.
I wonder if they will keep the dread FOC swapping. Guessing no, but <shrug>
When you make the regular techmarine 2 wounds and give him the conversion beamer access, I suspect you pretty much covered 95% of why folks took the master of the forge. The tech will be a MOTF in all but probably one stat like LD or attacks.
My Astral Claws laugh at this update. We have a Special Character MotF, so that role is still filled. No demotions for my army.
I dunno, I'm gonna wait on most of these. Not that I don't believe this guy per se, but he's going from memory. I think that these should be taken with salt, even if they are mostly correct.
pretre wrote: Wait, if I take a full company, all transports are free? Shut the front door.
All the land raiders!!!!
Unless the chapter tactics are pretty sweet the Demi company doesn't seem worth losing objective secured for. Will have to see if there are detachment bonuses as well as specific formation bonuses as well.
pretre wrote: Wait, if I take a full company, all transports are free? Shut the front door.
Too bad you are paying like 2500 pts to get it on the field.
Cheap HQ - 75
6 Tactical Squads - 840
3 Assault Squads - 420
3 Dev Squads - 420
That's 1755. Then add a butt-ton of points in transports for free. What 12 Razorbacks?
I guess it depends on what they define as a 'full company' though.
pretre wrote: Wait, if I take a full company, all transports are free? Shut the front door.
All the land raiders!!!!
Unless the chapter tactics are pretty sweet the Demi company doesn't seem worth losing objective secured for. Will have to see if there are detachment bonuses as well as specific formation bonuses as well.
100 marine bodies is 1300 points, so that leaves 550/700 points for the command models and upgrades at 1850/700. Probably not doable at 1850 but you might be able to squeeze something into 2k.
I hope you all realize the "full company" is likely an apoc-intended formation with every part of the Gladius that will be over 3000 pts like other other huge ones.
Don't get your hopes up thinking you'll get 10 free Razorbacks at 1850 and be disappointed then get angry at GW... just don't do it.
100 marine bodies is 1300 points, so that leaves 550/700 points for the command models and upgrades at 1850/700. Probably not doable at 1850 but you might be able to squeeze something into 2k.
Auswin wrote: I hope you all realize the "full company" is likely an apoc-intended formation with every part of the Gladius that will be over 3000 pts like other other huge ones.
Don't get your hopes up thinking you'll get 10 free Razorbacks at 1850 and be disappointed then get angry at GW... just don't do it.
I hope you realize every game is apoc intended. dontyaknow?
Still full company full of free lasorbacks. mmmmmmmmm
Iuchiban@Warseer wrote:Ok, let's go:
The basic "Decurión" is the Demi battle company:
- 1 Captain or Chaplain
- 0-1 Command squad
- 3 Tactical squads
- 1 Assault squad, Bike squad, Attack bike squad, Land speeder squad or Assault Cents.
- 1 Devastator squad or Dev Cent squad.
- 0-1 Dreadnought of any type.
This formation may use any battle doctrines once per battle
If you take 2 Demi-Companies, you get a full Company. (First company with a Captain and the second with a Chaplain). If done so, any unit that is able to purchase a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, may do so without any additional cost.
Termins are now 175 points (Both types), altough hammer and shied cost +10 points
Devastator, for +5 points, may once per game, reroll to hit. Grav cannons + amp cost 35 points.
Chapter master upgrade is not one per army.
No Land Raider Squadrons, but one Formation (3 Land Raiders of any type). They reroll to wound vs Gargantuan Creatures and to penétrate vs Superhevies. If they are at 6" of any other Raider of the formation, they ignore any result on the damage chart but destroyed.
To get the benefit of the tank squadrons you need 3 of them. You lose the benefit if you lose a tank.
My god are smurfs good at pods now. Put three dev cents in pods x3 and three tac squads in pods with grav gun combi grav and heavy grav then take 3 command squads all with grav guns... Did I mention the word grav?
Tac trait or dev trait depending on which half you want to bring in, basically two full turns of twin linked murder. Feel free to put melta on those command squads if your afraid a million grav shots won't handle armor...
I really don't get how people are saying nothing is changing. My god, just having vehicle squadrons without a benefit is major, but the benefits so far are all insane. 3 vindicators generating an apocalyptic ignores cover blast?...Seriously?! 3 whirlwinds gaining shred... Jesus trip TFC's with BS5!!!! Thats 12 s6 barage templates for only 300pts and a single Heavy slot!
Also awseome black templars got huge perks. They can seriously stop bitching now (they were justified before btw). Counter attack, crusader, adwill, rage damn these guys are going to be a menace. Just take triple honor guard and start the butchery.
Auswin wrote: I hope you all realize the "full company" is likely an apoc-intended formation with every part of the Gladius that will be over 3000 pts like other other huge ones.
Don't get your hopes up thinking you'll get 10 free Razorbacks at 1850 and be disappointed then get angry at GW... just don't do it.
I hope you realize every game is apoc intended. dontyaknow?
Still full company full of free lasorbacks. mmmmmmmmm
True that... I'm using it as shorthand for 3000+ game. It's very cool. I just hope people temper expectations and assume they're getting the ad mech/skitarri/IK formation on steroids. It'll only disappoint.
bump those up to 10 man each and you're at 1580. That gives you 270 in heavy weapons/upgrades and then you get 10 free Razorbacks or drop pods or whatever. Not bad.
bump those up to 10 man each and you're at 1580. That gives you 270 in heavy weapons/upgrades and then you get 10 free Razorbacks or drop pods or whatever. Not bad.
10 free razorbacks....so las/plas or twin-las and you are looking at what, 750 points of free stuff for spending 880? Almost half your army is free off the bat.
Calgar (275) may choose his warlord trait from the codex.
They are:
- Warlord gains Fear. Test is done with 3D6.
- Warlord and his unit get Furious Charge
- Warlord has FnP - Every shooting phase pick a unit at max 12". Shooting weapons of this unit get the Rending SR
- Any unit in the same Detachment may use Warlord's Ld - Any unit at 12" reroll Ld tests (Moral, Pinning, Fear)
His army may use one additional doctrine, once per game.
BTW doctrines are cumulative. If you have an Ultramarines detachment, using a DemiCompany and Calgar, you may use the same doctrine 3 times during the battle.
The real question with the free transports is if the weapon upgrades are free for the razors, or if you get the base razor free, but have to pay for the las/plas.
Ohhh, and it says free vehicles, we will have to see if that includes upgrades or not.
I can see getting free las/plas or twin linked assault cannons for free. Add in a free hunter killer(never thought I would take those again lol)
Holy gak!!! Is it just the tacticals that get objective secured or the whole detachment?
Man, now I have to see all the rules on all of these things together, starting to sound like marines got a serious boost.
The versatility of the mandatory detachment is also quite nice. Especially if they don't require full squads. Wording is gonna be key here. Now I am super excited!!
Bikes are not twin linked and they don't have amps, also why not take bikes for troops and then grav devs in pods?
If you think grav devs are bad your wrong frankly. Sure they are expensive, and they better be. You put them in a pod at 10 strong and you have 6 five man units each putting out 6 twin linked grav shots with amps, 36 shots on the drop which turns to 60 shots the following turn. That's so brutal. Zero misshap chance, guarenteed range and alpha strike.
Blacksails wrote: The real question with the free transports is if the weapon upgrades are free for the razors, or if you get the base razor free, but have to pay for the las/plas.
I doubt that the upgrades will be free. TLHB/TLHF yes, but anything else? Way too many points for a fully pimped Razorback, 105 pts (all current upgrades and TLLC) bought with a 70pts Tac Squad sounds a bit too good to be true. Even when adding a GravCan+Amp you're at 105pts of TacSquad adding another 105pts of DT.
Blacksails wrote: The real question with the free transports is if the weapon upgrades are free for the razors, or if you get the base razor free, but have to pay for the las/plas.
I doubt that the upgrades will be free. TLHB/TLHF yes, but anything else? Way too many points for a fully pimped Razorback, 105 pts (all current upgrades and TLLC) bought with a 70pts Tac Squad sounds a bit too good to be true. Even when adding a GravCan+Amp you're at 105pts of TacSquad adding another 105pts of DT.
I wouldn't put it passed GW.
Hence my question, because it could swing either way.
Blacksails wrote: The real question with the free transports is if the weapon upgrades are free for the razors, or if you get the base razor free, but have to pay for the las/plas.
I doubt that the upgrades will be free. TLHB/TLHF yes, but anything else? Way too many points for a fully pimped Razorback, 105 pts (all current upgrades and TLLC) bought with a 70pts Tac Squad sounds a bit too good to be true. Even when adding a GravCan+Amp you're at 105pts of TacSquad adding another 105pts of DT.
You may not want to play against admech then lol. Free gear seems to be the response to other armies free abilities and stat boosts.
Apparently rather then pricing things correctly to begin with, they would rather you play large games with set unit purchases... I wonder why that is
Yea, I read grav canons as that second special weapon everyone wants for tacs since it has salvo and an amp. Makes vanilla marines pretty insane now actually. Especially smurf tactics in those pods.
ASM can't take pods. And why would you when you can get Razorbacks? Take the LasPlas or AsC variants and take your enemy down with a hailstorm of fire.
It looks like the Warlord traits changed dramatically or Calgar gets his own special snowflake traits to choose from. If they did change, I wonder who gets what. That rending trait looks brutal.
I could see myself taking Deathwind pods if they were free.
Deathwinds are so underrated it's crazy. Even I turn my nose at them usually until I play this one guy that ends up clogging the middle of the table with 5 by turn 2 every game. 5 s 5 large blasts is a massive PITA especially once you start killing pods leaving your unit in a ring with no consolidation for the next round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wait every update for when drop pods get ceramite plating since they drop from orbit
Ok, let's go:
The basic "Decurión" is the Demi battle company:
- 1 Captain or Chaplain
- 0-1 Command squad
- 3 Tactical squads
- 1 Assault squad, Bike squad, Attack bike squad, Land speeder squad or Assault Cents.
- 1 Devastator squad or Dev Cent squad.
- 0-1 Dreadnought of any type.
This formation may use any battle doctrines once per battle
If you take 2 Demi-Companies, you get a full Company. (First company with a Captain and the second with a Chaplain). If done so, any unit that is able to purchase a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, may do so without any additional cost.
Termins are now 175 points (Both types), altough hammer and shied cost +10 points
Devastator, for +5 points, may once per game, reroll to hit. Grav cannons + amp cost 35 points.
Chapter master upgrade is not one per army.
No Land Raider Squadrons, but one Formation (3 Land Raiders of any type). They reroll to wound vs Gargantuan Creatures and to penétrate vs Superhevies. If they are at 6" of any other Raider of the formation, they ignore any result on the damage chart but destroyed.
To get the benefit of the tank squadrons you need 3 of them. You lose the benefit if you lose a tank.
Let's go with the formations:
Demi-Company (See above)
Anti-Air Defence Force
- 1 unit of Hunters
- 1 unit of Stalkers
Benefits:
- If one Hunter hits a flyer with the main weapon, all Stalkers in the unit get +1BS when firing at this flyer.
Restrictions:
- Unit of Stalkers: Mínimum 2
1st Company Task Force
- 3-5 Units from:
Termis
Assault Termis
Sternguard Veterans
Vanguard Veterans
Benefits:
- Fear
- Fearless
- At the beginning of the game, pick an enemy unit. Units in this formation have Preferred Enemy against the picked unit
- Enemy units get -2 to L, if they are a 12" of a mínimum of 3 units of this formation
Restrictions: None
Strilke Force Ultra
- 1 Captain
- 2 Termi squads
- 2 Assault Termi squads
- 1 Venerable Dreadnoght
- 1 Stormraven
- 1 LR Crusader or Redeemer
Benefits:
- All units stay in Reserve. Start rolling on your turn 1.
- After coming from reserves, or disembarking, shooting weapons of the Termi squads get +1 shoot (For Example, Assault Cannon becomes Heavy 5)
- When disembarking from a transport, assault Termi units get +1A.
Restrictions:
Captain must have Terminator Armour
All units must enter via DS, unless embarked in a Transport.
Reclusiam Command Squad
- 1 Chaplain
- 1 Command Squad
Benefits:
- All units at 6" benefit from the Fanatic SR, not only the Chaplain unit
Restrictions:
- Unit must purchase a Razorback. Chaplain may not leave the command squad.
10th Company Task Force
- 3-5 units of:
Scout Squad
Scout Bike
0-1 Telion
Benefits:
- Precisión shots during first turn
- If the unit has not the Stealth SR, they get it until the move, shoot, charge, etc.
Restrictions:
- Scout bikes must purchase the mines.
Storm Wing
- 1 Stormraven
- 2 Stormtalons
Benefits:
- Make only a reserve roll for the whole unit
- Stormraven gets the Strafin Run SR, if at least a Talon is alive.
Restrictions:
None
Centurión Siege Breaker Cohort
- 2-4 Assault Cent squads
- 1 Ironclad
Benefits:
- If they destroy a Transport, unit inside the 2D6 S6 AP4 hits, Ignore cover.
- Reroll to penétrate vs buildings
Restrictions:
None
Land Raider Spearhead
- 3 Raiders of any type.
Benefits:
- See previous posts
Restrictions:
None
Librarius Conclave
3-5 Librarians
Benefits:
- Pick one Librarian, This guy knows all the powers of any Lib of the formation at 12". Those Libs may not cast powers this turn. Picked Lib harness warp charges with 3+ if one Lib is at 12" or less. If 2 Libs at 12" or less, harnessing is with 2+.
Restrictions:
None
Armoure Task Force
- 1 Techmarine
- 0-3 TFC - 3-5 Units of
Vindicators
Predators
Whirlwinds
- 0-1 Chronus
Benefits:
- Ignore crew shaken and stunned if at 6" of a Techmarine or a Techmarine gunner
- Thechmarine and Techmarine gunner get +1 to Ominissiah rolls (repair vehicles)
Suppression Force
- 1 Whirlwind unit
- 1 Landspeeder unit
Benefits:
- One landspeeder may pick an enemy unit at 12". Whirlwinds reroll to hit vs this unit. If the picked unit is out of range of the whirlwinds, the may fire ignoring it.
Restrictions:
None
I could see myself taking Deathwind pods if they were free.
Deathwinds are so underrated it's crazy. Even I turn my nose at them usually until I play this one guy that ends up clogging the middle of the table with 5 by turn 2 every game. 5 s 5 large blasts is a massive PITA especially once you start killing pods leaving your unit in a ring with no consolidation for the next round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wait every update for when drop pods get ceramite plating since they drop from orbit
To be Fair the ceramite parts are on the bottom and on the doors that are now facing the floors. perhaps auto pass on lava terrain
Ok, let's go:
The basic "Decurión" is the Demi battle company:
- 1 Captain or Chaplain
- 0-1 Command squad
- 3 Tactical squads
- 1 Assault squad, Bike squad, Attack bike squad, Land speeder squad or Assault Cents.
- 1 Devastator squad or Dev Cent squad.
- 0-1 Dreadnought of any type.
This formation may use any battle doctrines once per battle
If you take 2 Demi-Companies, you get a full Company. (First company with a Captain and the second with a Chaplain). If done so, any unit that is able to purchase a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, may do so without any additional cost.
Termins are now 175 points (Both types), altough hammer and shied cost +10 points
Devastator, for +5 points, may once per game, reroll to hit. Grav cannons + amp cost 35 points.
Chapter master upgrade is not one per army.
No Land Raider Squadrons, but one Formation (3 Land Raiders of any type). They reroll to wound vs Gargantuan Creatures and to penétrate vs Superhevies. If they are at 6" of any other Raider of the formation, they ignore any result on the damage chart but destroyed.
To get the benefit of the tank squadrons you need 3 of them. You lose the benefit if you lose a tank.
Let's go with the formations:
Demi-Company (See above)
Anti-Air Defence Force
- 1 unit of Hunters
- 1 unit of Stalkers
Benefits:
- If one Hunter hits a flyer with the main weapon, all Stalkers in the unit get +1BS when firing at this flyer.
Restrictions:
- Unit of Stalkers: Mínimum 2
1st Company Task Force
- 3-5 Units from:
Termis
Assault Termis
Sternguard Veterans
Vanguard Veterans
Benefits:
- Fear
- Fearless
- At the beginning of the game, pick an enemy unit. Units in this formation have Preferred Enemy against the picked unit
- Enemy units get -2 to L, if they are a 12" of a mínimum of 3 units of this formation
Restrictions: None
Strilke Force Ultra
- 1 Captain
- 2 Termi squads
- 2 Assault Termi squads
- 1 Venerable Dreadnoght
- 1 Stormraven
- 1 LR Crusader or Redeemer
Benefits:
- All units stay in Reserve. Start rolling on your turn 1.
- After coming from reserves, or disembarking, shooting weapons of the Termi squads get +1 shoot (For Example, Assault Cannon becomes Heavy 5)
- When disembarking from a transport, assault Termi units get +1A.
Restrictions:
Captain must have Terminator Armour
All units must enter via DS, unless embarked in a Transport.
Reclusiam Command Squad
- 1 Chaplain
- 1 Command Squad
Benefits:
- All units at 6" benefit from the Fanatic SR, not only the Chaplain unit
Restrictions:
- Unit must purchase a Razorback. Chaplain may not leave the command squad.
10th Company Task Force
- 3-5 units of:
Scout Squad
Scout Bike
0-1 Telion
Benefits:
- Precisión shots during first turn
- If the unit has not the Stealth SR, they get it until the move, shoot, charge, etc.
Restrictions:
- Scout bikes must purchase the mines.
Storm Wing
- 1 Stormraven
- 2 Stormtalons
Benefits:
- Make only a reserve roll for the whole unit
- Stormraven gets the Strafin Run SR, if at least a Talon is alive.
Restrictions:
None
Centurión Siege Breaker Cohort
- 2-4 Assault Cent squads
- 1 Ironclad
Benefits:
- If they destroy a Transport, unit inside the 2D6 S6 AP4 hits, Ignore cover.
- Reroll to penétrate vs buildings
Restrictions:
None
Land Raider Spearhead
- 3 Raiders of any type.
Benefits:
- See previous posts
Restrictions:
None
Librarius Conclave
3-5 Librarians
Benefits:
- Pick one Librarian, This guy knows all the powers of any Lib of the formation at 12". Those Libs may not cast powers this turn. Picked Lib harness warp charges with 3+ if one Lib is at 12" or less. If 2 Libs at 12" or less, harnessing is with 2+.
Restrictions:
None
Armoure Task Force
- 1 Techmarine
- 0-3 TFC - 3-5 Units of
Vindicators
Predators
Whirlwinds
- 0-1 Chronus
Benefits:
- Ignore crew shaken and stunned if at 6" of a Techmarine or a Techmarine gunner
- Thechmarine and Techmarine gunner get +1 to Ominissiah rolls (repair vehicles)
Suppression Force
- 1 Whirlwind unit
- 1 Landspeeder unit
Benefits:
- One landspeeder may pick an enemy unit at 12". Whirlwinds reroll to hit vs this unit. If the picked unit is out of range of the whirlwinds, the may fire ignoring it.
Restrictions:
None
Buff, that was a big one ....
thought there was something better, oh well
Assuming that these are true, they are pretty lackluster in my opinion. Not sure if these will be used from a competitive standpoint.
Leth wrote: Ohhh, and it says free vehicles, we will have to see if that includes upgrades or not.
I can see getting free las/plas or twin linked assault cannons for free. Add in a free hunter killer(never thought I would take those again lol)
Holy gak!!! Is it just the tacticals that get objective secured or the whole detachment?
Man, now I have to see all the rules on all of these things together, starting to sound like marines got a serious boost.
The versatility of the mandatory detachment is also quite nice. Especially if they don't require full squads. Wording is gonna be key here. Now I am super excited!!
Yeah. That full company sounds amazing. If DT upgrades are free, that would be insane. Oh, the vehicles.....
The Librarian Conclave sounds solid, too.
The Land Raider formation... ignore all damage except for "destroyed"?! I wonder if that means, all damage except Explodes (7+). Sounds crazy? But at the cost, you're better off taking a full company for a truckload of razorbacks.
Talys wrote: Oh, yes, worth mentioning -- Dreadnoughts at 4 attacks, if the points haven't gone up -- makes them a lot more interesting.
Already enjoy my punchy ironclads so this is great.
Honestly not sure what people were expecting with the formations.
I think most of them are fine.
Still want confirmation on the Vindicator one
Yeah! I think the formations look pretty solid, without going overboard. So far, Full Company looks to be the craziest of the bunch.
I think there's a bunch of people hoping for something ridiculously overpowered, "3 devastator squads, get all 12 free grav cannons" or "500 point core, free army upgrades!" so that they have an easy "I win" formation, and there's a bunch of people hoping for something ridiculously overpowered so that they can complain that it's another broken rulebook, and then a bunch more people that were hoping for a reprint of 6e so that they can complain about that
Most of the formations look like they have some perk without being over the top; a lot we won't know until we have the actual text, and until it gets play-tested. But really, Space Marines were decent before, and it looks like some solid net gains, to me.
And yeah, I wanna see if I need to buy 2 more vindicators
MajorWesJanson wrote: Unlike eldar, where everything got turned up to 12, marines seem to be staying about the same as the last book.
SM are the thing that everything is compared to and the only ever remotely balanced book in the game. Everything is balanced against them, most of the time rather well but things break down away from that.
DE are alright against SM, SM are alright against DE 'nids are aright against SM, SM are alright against 'nids
IG are alright against SM, SM are alright against IG
What happens when DE square off against 'nids or IG? Horrors
While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.
Talys wrote: Oh, yes, worth mentioning -- Dreadnoughts at 4 attacks, if the points haven't gone up -- makes them a lot more interesting.
Already enjoy my punchy ironclads so this is great.
Honestly not sure what people were expecting with the formations.
I think most of them are fine.
Still want confirmation on the Vindicator one
When the power scale of the eldar ones are along the lines of free weapon upgrades and +1WS/BS, there was the hope for some really nice boosts. Not that what we have is bad, but a lot of them have high buy in costs and kinda nice (but not OMG nice) benefits.
Talys wrote: Oh, yes, worth mentioning -- Dreadnoughts at 4 attacks, if the points haven't gone up -- makes them a lot more interesting.
Already enjoy my punchy ironclads so this is great.
Honestly not sure what people were expecting with the formations.
I think most of them are fine.
Still want confirmation on the Vindicator one
When the power scale of the eldar ones are along the lines of free weapon upgrades and +1WS/BS, there was the hope for some really nice boosts. Not that what we have is bad, but a lot of them have high buy in costs and kinda nice (but not OMG nice) benefits.
When the power scale is tipped to the eldar side with a 1 ton weight. chucking another 1 ton weight on the other side is only just gona break the fethin scale. i REALLY wish we could just remove the 1 ton weight on the eldar side.
I'm interested to see what happens to the DA codex after this. Just bought my SW one, I think I need to somehow convince the wife that having 2 army's to play is a good thing....
Maybe if I put some money aside for an embroidery machine for her!
Being a new player to 40K (Well very old returning one, last time I played Termies had a 2d6 armour save lol), I am quite intrigued by a lot of the synergy in this codex.
When the power scale is tipped to the eldar side with a 1 ton weight. chucking another 1 ton weight on the other side is only just gona break the fethin scale. i REALLY wish we could just remove the 1 ton weight on the eldar side.
I tend to agree with you. The other option would for everyone to adjust to the new level. Which looks to not be happening.
On the bright side, I can continue to play my marines without feeling dirty at the FLGS. The same can’t be said about my Eldar.
Dreads having 4 attacks means that Contemptors need to be updated as such! Sure it's more practical to have two Assault Cannons but Fists look SOOOO nice.
When the power scale is tipped to the eldar side with a 1 ton weight. chucking another 1 ton weight on the other side is only just gona break the fethin scale. i REALLY wish we could just remove the 1 ton weight on the eldar side.
I tend to agree with you. The other option would for everyone to adjust to the new level. Which looks to not be happening.
On the bright side, I can continue to play my marines without feeling dirty at the FLGS. The same can’t be said about my Eldar.
Yes! The solution to Wraithknights being too cheap is not to make everyhthing else too cheap.
Nightlord1987 wrote:Yup. Now I'm still stuck in the fence as to play my Loyalists as a DA Successor, or an IH one....
I'm glad Tech marines got a bump. Definitely my favorite guy.
Me too. Conversion beamer makes Techmarine sound pretty cool. Now we need a new model!
When you make the regular techmarine 2 wounds and give him the conversion beamer access, I suspect you pretty much covered 95% of why folks took the master of the forge. The tech will be a MOTF in all but probably one stat like LD or attacks.
maybe the MotF is not in the codex
or maybe he has 3 wounds
If the techmarine on TFC have 2 wounds. Guess which great unit from C:SM just got better?
Nocturnus wrote: While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.
They buffed quite a bit. The few changes they made did make marines a gak load more powerful. Anyone who doesn't see it is nuts
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Morden wrote: Wasn't one of the many bleets from Eldar Apologists that "all " new codexes would be like that one.
Have we now had several Codexes without any new units - just redone ones? Thats not a bad thing I guess. maybe no more Sleighs?
If any codex doesn't need new units its marines
You people are insane you can squadron predators and they get tank/monster hunter. You can get three big blasts with awesome anti troop stats and shred and pinning
There's a formation where every unit get a free dedicated transport... Marines are going to trump eldar
Yeah, I hate to say it, as it is an unbelievably lazy "fix"... but adding Grav like it was free candy, makes under-costed Wraithknights look a whole lot less intimidating.
Again... GW does some of the laziest passes at balancing I have ever seen, it it is sort of there...
... unless you're every non-Eldar, non-Imperium player.
Nocturnus wrote: While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.
They buffed quite a bit. The few changes they made did make marines a gak load more powerful. Anyone who doesn't see it is nuts.
I guess I must be nuts then. As a tourney player, I would still consider a game against these 7e marine rumors much easier than a matchup against taxi'd admech or eldar/crons.
We have triple vehicle sets that lose their special ability by knocking one out. A land raider formation that takes up most of an army, a bunch of very "meh" subformations for the gladius. The full company getting a bunch of free razorbacks or pods can make a run at tournaments. Bikers still look good, cents (assuming no change) still look good. Their actual competitive armies that abuse the best units didn't change much, but what they did NOT get, which is what I was hoping for, is a book where you can take whatever you want and have it be at least viable, similar to eldar/crons.
Even if I did play against a ton of free transports, it's still just a bunch of foot marines. Not exactly the most broken model in the game.
Nocturnus wrote: While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.
They buffed quite a bit. The few changes they made did make marines a gak load more powerful. Anyone who doesn't see it is nuts
I must be nuts because I'm just not seeing a massive upgrade. One-use combat doctrines, when compared to the detachment bonuses for Necrons, Eldar, and even Khorne Daemonkin, don't sound all that great, given the required units. Stock tactical termies for 35 points doesn't address their problem, ie, they are too fragile and lack offensive punch. TH/SS termies, the only useful ones, are the same cost (and still a bit overpriced). Termies needed improvements, not a points drop. 4 attacks for dreads is okay, but given that dreads rarely make it to combat, are outclassed by the majority of MCs, and can still be tarpitted rather easily, its not enough to make me suddenly want to field them.
Gravcannons in tacticals and devastator squads is nice, granted, but 49 points for a single T4 wound with a 3+ save is prohibitively expensive and rather useless against Orks, Chaos Daemons, and even DE. At least it makes the rest of the armies rely on reserves and bubble-wrap to protect their heavy hitters from grav-alpha strikes. Vehicle squadrons are nice, and the bonuses even more so. That's probably, in my opinion, the best upgrade to the entire army, but I don't think it makes them a gak-load more powerful, but it does allow SM a nice counter to some of the more problematic units and army builds.
The majority of the formations are either not that impressive or require far too much to be feasible (or both). I'd say the Librarian formation will end up as the top formation because its rather potent and can be fielded without breaking the bank.
So far, I'm not really impressed in light of the more recent codex releases. I'm still hoping there are some key bits of info being left out on these leaks, but I doubt that is the case.
Crimson Devil wrote: You know it is funny that the White Scars and Iron Hands have two of the most popular chapter tactics yet their Limited Editions are two of the last to sell out in the US. lol
A lot of us bought the Iron Hands special edition last time around, for myself I thought I was rewarding GW for finally paying the chapter some attention, which is technically true, if "gutting the chapter's background of everything that made the fans like them in the first place and turning them into a chapter of petty passive-aggressive spankers" counts as attention.
I doubt many will be making the same mistake twice.
Agreed. It should just be renamed the Ultramarine Codex again.
While I like the Salamanders or IH until they are given more than oh they just get x and ignore the fluff I like. I won't be supporting the Blandmarine codex anytime soon.
The majority of the formations are either not that impressive or require far too much to be feasible (or both). I'd say the Librarian formation will end up as the top formation because its rather potent and can be fielded without breaking the bank.
Assuming it's the same as the Dark Angels Librarius Conclave(a dataslate that came out awhile ago--and the wording so far seems to be the same), there is a bit of a downside.
You nominate a single model at the start of the Psychic phase, and that model then gets the access to any psychic powers known by other models from this Formation within 12" until the end of the phase; however other models from this Formation within 12" of the nominated model cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase.
The Warp Charge points on a 3+ rather than 4+ has the same 12" restriction and only applies to the nominated model.
Again--assuming it's the same; which it very much looks to be.
Ok, let's go:
The basic "Decurión" is the Demi battle company:
- 1 Captain or Chaplain
- 0-1 Command squad
- 3 Tactical squads
- 1 Assault squad, Bike squad, Attack bike squad, Land speeder squad or Assault Cents.
- 1 Devastator squad or Dev Cent squad.
- 0-1 Dreadnought of any type.
This formation may use any battle doctrines once per battle
If you take 2 Demi-Companies, you get a full Company. (First company with a Captain and the second with a Chaplain). If done so, any unit that is able to purchase a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, may do so without any additional cost.
Termins are now 175 points (Both types), altough hammer and shied cost +10 points
Devastator, for +5 points, may once per game, reroll to hit. Grav cannons + amp cost 35 points.
Chapter master upgrade is not one per army.
No Land Raider Squadrons, but one Formation (3 Land Raiders of any type). They reroll to wound vs Gargantuan Creatures and to penétrate vs Superhevies. If they are at 6" of any other Raider of the formation, they ignore any result on the damage chart but destroyed.
To get the benefit of the tank squadrons you need 3 of them. You lose the benefit if you lose a tank.
Let's go with the formations:
Demi-Company (See above)
Anti-Air Defence Force
- 1 unit of Hunters
- 1 unit of Stalkers
Benefits:
- If one Hunter hits a flyer with the main weapon, all Stalkers in the unit get +1BS when firing at this flyer.
Restrictions:
- Unit of Stalkers: Mínimum 2
1st Company Task Force
- 3-5 Units from:
Termis
Assault Termis
Sternguard Veterans
Vanguard Veterans
Benefits:
- Fear
- Fearless
- At the beginning of the game, pick an enemy unit. Units in this formation have Preferred Enemy against the picked unit
- Enemy units get -2 to L, if they are a 12" of a mínimum of 3 units of this formation
Restrictions: None
Strilke Force Ultra
- 1 Captain
- 2 Termi squads
- 2 Assault Termi squads
- 1 Venerable Dreadnoght
- 1 Stormraven
- 1 LR Crusader or Redeemer
Benefits:
- All units stay in Reserve. Start rolling on your turn 1.
- After coming from reserves, or disembarking, shooting weapons of the Termi squads get +1 shoot (For Example, Assault Cannon becomes Heavy 5)
- When disembarking from a transport, assault Termi units get +1A.
Restrictions:
Captain must have Terminator Armour
All units must enter via DS, unless embarked in a Transport.
Reclusiam Command Squad
- 1 Chaplain
- 1 Command Squad
Benefits:
- All units at 6" benefit from the Fanatic SR, not only the Chaplain unit
Restrictions:
- Unit must purchase a Razorback. Chaplain may not leave the command squad.
10th Company Task Force
- 3-5 units of:
Scout Squad
Scout Bike
0-1 Telion
Benefits:
- Precisión shots during first turn
- If the unit has not the Stealth SR, they get it until the move, shoot, charge, etc.
Restrictions:
- Scout bikes must purchase the mines.
Storm Wing
- 1 Stormraven
- 2 Stormtalons
Benefits:
- Make only a reserve roll for the whole unit
- Stormraven gets the Strafin Run SR, if at least a Talon is alive.
Restrictions:
None
Centurión Siege Breaker Cohort
- 2-4 Assault Cent squads
- 1 Ironclad
Benefits:
- If they destroy a Transport, unit inside the 2D6 S6 AP4 hits, Ignore cover.
- Reroll to penétrate vs buildings
Restrictions:
None
Land Raider Spearhead
- 3 Raiders of any type.
Benefits:
- See previous posts
Restrictions:
None
Librarius Conclave
3-5 Librarians
Benefits:
- Pick one Librarian, This guy knows all the powers of any Lib of the formation at 12". Those Libs may not cast powers this turn. Picked Lib harness warp charges with 3+ if one Lib is at 12" or less. If 2 Libs at 12" or less, harnessing is with 2+.
Restrictions:
None
Armoure Task Force
- 1 Techmarine
- 0-3 TFC - 3-5 Units of
Vindicators
Predators
Whirlwinds
- 0-1 Chronus
Benefits:
- Ignore crew shaken and stunned if at 6" of a Techmarine or a Techmarine gunner
- Thechmarine and Techmarine gunner get +1 to Ominissiah rolls (repair vehicles)
Suppression Force
- 1 Whirlwind unit
- 1 Landspeeder unit
Benefits:
- One landspeeder may pick an enemy unit at 12". Whirlwinds reroll to hit vs this unit. If the picked unit is out of range of the whirlwinds, the may fire ignoring it.
Restrictions:
None
Buff, that was a big one ....
thought there was something better, oh well
Assuming that these are true, they are pretty lackluster in my opinion. Not sure if these will be used from a competitive standpoint.
You really think the full company, clocking in at around 1480 without gear, with objective secured and free transports adding up to 700+ points is lackluster? Are we playing the same game?
Nocturnus wrote: While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.
They buffed quite a bit. The few changes they made did make marines a gak load more powerful. Anyone who doesn't see it is nuts.
I guess I must be nuts then. As a tourney player, I would still consider a game against these 7e marine rumors much easier than a matchup against taxi'd admech or eldar/crons.
We have triple vehicle sets that lose their special ability by knocking one out. A land raider formation that takes up most of an army, a bunch of very "meh" subformations for the gladius. The full company getting a bunch of free razorbacks or pods can make a run at tournaments. Bikers still look good, cents (assuming no change) still look good. Their actual competitive armies that abuse the best units didn't change much, but what they did NOT get, which is what I was hoping for, is a book where you can take whatever you want and have it be at least viable, similar to eldar/crons.
Even if I did play against a ton of free transports, it's still just a bunch of foot marines. Not exactly the most broken model in the game.
They opened up so many more combinations than is reasonable. Necrons are by no ways overpowered compared to this new books rumors. Eldar are if you face just maxed wind riders with scatter and wraithknights. Those are the only really overpowered units. The rest is comparable and if you don't think so Id assume it's rose colored glasses. the new rules are strong. You may just be upset it wasn't chamged the way you wanted but it got beefed a lot. I'd face necron over marines if the generals are of equal level as is
You absolutely can not take anything with eldar. Play a game against a good list and opponent with no win drifters or wraithknights and it's easy unless your list sucks, and again this isn't true as a necron player either
You really think the full company, clocking in at around 1480 without gear, with objective secured and free transports adding up to 700+ points is lackluster? Are we playing the same game?
Yeah, that one is going to be VERY solid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 1450 gets you the following:
Captain & Chappy 6x5 Tacticals w/Combi-Grav & Grav Cannon 2x5 Assault Marines w/2 Flamers 2x5 Devs w/4 Grav Cannons 10 Free drop Pods Add an Aegis with Comms for what, 80? That's 1530 Add 10 Deathwinds. That's 1630.
220 Points? Two dreadnoughts with Free Deathwind Drop Pods?
That's 12 Deathwind Drop Pods 20 Grav Cannons and 6 Combi-Gravs 4 Flamers Two Dreadnoughts 62 Marine bodies
I'm actually beginning to feel tempted to just say 'feth it' and use my Chaos Marines as Templars... Loyalists are now so far above and beyond anything my traitors can pull, unless I go for a mostly daemonic force.
And I'd finally be able to get an actual Heavy Flamer for my sneaky Alpha Legion infiltrators, posing as a unit of Dragon Claws from the Black Dragons Chapter!
@Orrock -- I don't think the 1480 company is the scary one.
Take just the bare minimum - captain, chaplain, 30 tacticals, 10 assault and 10 devastator, and you're clocking in at much lower than that. If the upgrades are free on the razorbacks, that's 750 points of transports, not to mention 10 heavy weapon vehicle models not easy to remove. Still 550 points worth at minimum.
I don't think the money is on grav cannons on the tactical unless they force you to take 10 man tacticals.
And, a reasonable compromise might be to drop one of the dev squads (and lose a razorback) in exchange for a 3-4 man devastator centurion squad as the death star.
That leaves plenty of room to ally in Draigo, and/pr skitarii in pods, since 35 pt pods are now part of the faction. Points left over go to special weapon upgrades for the tactical, librarians, and maybe a command squad (with another free razorback!)
I don't think upgrades on the transports are going to be free. We'll have to wait to see the exact wording, but a free heavy bolter razorback isn't exactly terror inducing.
Talys wrote: @Orrock -- I don't think the 1480 company is the scary one.
Take just the bare minimum - captain, chaplain, 30 tacticals, 10 assault and 10 devastator, and you're clocking in at much lower than that. If the upgrades are free on the razorbacks, that's 750 points of transports, not to mention 10 heavy weapon vehicle models not easy to remove. Still 550 points worth at minimum.
I'm laughing my butt off at people complaining that SM didn't get buffed into the freaking moon like Eldar. The bonuses and changes we've seen so far have been nothing but buffs, and getting free transports in an army known for stocking up on Drop Pods, Rhinos, and Razorbacks already is insane. What I've seen so far easily puts them on par with Necrons imo.
Not being as good as the army with spammable D weapons, GCs, and the most powerful Jetbikes in the game doesn't mean it sucks, lol.
Though I do with Raven Guard were better =\ I think my hypothetical new Space Marine army will be using Ultramarine tactics.
Ok, let's go:
The basic "Decurión" is the Demi battle company:
- 1 Captain or Chaplain
- 0-1 Command squad
- 3 Tactical squads
- 1 Assault squad, Bike squad, Attack bike squad, Land speeder squad or Assault Cents.
- 1 Devastator squad or Dev Cent squad.
- 0-1 Dreadnought of any type.
This formation may use any battle doctrines once per battle
If you take 2 Demi-Companies, you get a full Company. (First company with a Captain and the second with a Chaplain). If done so, any unit that is able to purchase a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, may do so without any additional cost.
Termins are now 175 points (Both types), altough hammer and shied cost +10 points
Devastator, for +5 points, may once per game, reroll to hit. Grav cannons + amp cost 35 points.
Chapter master upgrade is not one per army.
No Land Raider Squadrons, but one Formation (3 Land Raiders of any type). They reroll to wound vs Gargantuan Creatures and to penétrate vs Superhevies. If they are at 6" of any other Raider of the formation, they ignore any result on the damage chart but destroyed.
To get the benefit of the tank squadrons you need 3 of them. You lose the benefit if you lose a tank.
Let's go with the formations:
Demi-Company (See above)
Anti-Air Defence Force
- 1 unit of Hunters
- 1 unit of Stalkers
Benefits:
- If one Hunter hits a flyer with the main weapon, all Stalkers in the unit get +1BS when firing at this flyer.
Restrictions:
- Unit of Stalkers: Mínimum 2
1st Company Task Force
- 3-5 Units from:
Termis
Assault Termis
Sternguard Veterans
Vanguard Veterans
Benefits:
- Fear
- Fearless
- At the beginning of the game, pick an enemy unit. Units in this formation have Preferred Enemy against the picked unit
- Enemy units get -2 to L, if they are a 12" of a mínimum of 3 units of this formation
Restrictions: None
Strilke Force Ultra
- 1 Captain
- 2 Termi squads
- 2 Assault Termi squads
- 1 Venerable Dreadnoght
- 1 Stormraven
- 1 LR Crusader or Redeemer
Benefits:
- All units stay in Reserve. Start rolling on your turn 1.
- After coming from reserves, or disembarking, shooting weapons of the Termi squads get +1 shoot (For Example, Assault Cannon becomes Heavy 5)
- When disembarking from a transport, assault Termi units get +1A.
Restrictions:
Captain must have Terminator Armour
All units must enter via DS, unless embarked in a Transport.
Reclusiam Command Squad
- 1 Chaplain
- 1 Command Squad
Benefits:
- All units at 6" benefit from the Fanatic SR, not only the Chaplain unit
Restrictions:
- Unit must purchase a Razorback. Chaplain may not leave the command squad.
10th Company Task Force
- 3-5 units of:
Scout Squad
Scout Bike
0-1 Telion
Benefits:
- Precisión shots during first turn
- If the unit has not the Stealth SR, they get it until the move, shoot, charge, etc.
Restrictions:
- Scout bikes must purchase the mines.
Storm Wing
- 1 Stormraven
- 2 Stormtalons
Benefits:
- Make only a reserve roll for the whole unit
- Stormraven gets the Strafin Run SR, if at least a Talon is alive.
Restrictions:
None
Centurión Siege Breaker Cohort
- 2-4 Assault Cent squads
- 1 Ironclad
Benefits:
- If they destroy a Transport, unit inside the 2D6 S6 AP4 hits, Ignore cover.
- Reroll to penétrate vs buildings
Restrictions:
None
Land Raider Spearhead
- 3 Raiders of any type.
Benefits:
- See previous posts
Restrictions:
None
Librarius Conclave
3-5 Librarians
Benefits:
- Pick one Librarian, This guy knows all the powers of any Lib of the formation at 12". Those Libs may not cast powers this turn. Picked Lib harness warp charges with 3+ if one Lib is at 12" or less. If 2 Libs at 12" or less, harnessing is with 2+.
Restrictions:
None
Armoure Task Force
- 1 Techmarine
- 0-3 TFC - 3-5 Units of
Vindicators
Predators
Whirlwinds
- 0-1 Chronus
Benefits:
- Ignore crew shaken and stunned if at 6" of a Techmarine or a Techmarine gunner
- Thechmarine and Techmarine gunner get +1 to Ominissiah rolls (repair vehicles)
Suppression Force
- 1 Whirlwind unit
- 1 Landspeeder unit
Benefits:
- One landspeeder may pick an enemy unit at 12". Whirlwinds reroll to hit vs this unit. If the picked unit is out of range of the whirlwinds, the may fire ignoring it.
Restrictions:
None
Buff, that was a big one ....
thought there was something better, oh well
Assuming that these are true, they are pretty lackluster in my opinion. Not sure if these will be used from a competitive standpoint.
You really think the full company, clocking in at around 1480 without gear, with objective secured and free transports adding up to 700+ points is lackluster? Are we playing the same game?
You are absolutely right. That is the only one that really stands out.
@Requizen - the people who are upset want an easily spammable, low model count formation.
Like say, razorbacks getting holo shields, jink, and 60" shooting range or tacticals getting rending bolters, and terminators getting FNP and 5 heavy weapons per squad!
Requizen wrote: I'm laughing my butt off at people complaining that SM didn't get buffed into the freaking moon like Eldar. The bonuses and changes we've seen so far have been nothing but buffs, and getting free transports in an army known for stocking up on Drop Pods, Rhinos, and Razorbacks already is insane. What I've seen so far easily puts them on par with Necrons imo.
Not being as good as the army with spammable D weapons, GCs, and the most powerful Jetbikes in the game doesn't mean it sucks, lol.
Though I do with Raven Guard were better =\ I think my hypothetical new Space Marine army will be using Ultramarine tactics.
To bad Marines still wont be able to flat out kill off Crons.
Eldar is just a fethin mess and it makes me sad pandas.
Personally liking the Demi Company Assuming dev combat doctrens will be copy pastaed.
4 Multi melta kill all tanks Dev squads, extreme alpha strike Grav devs.
Nocturnus wrote: While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.
They buffed quite a bit. The few changes they made did make marines a gak load more powerful. Anyone who doesn't see it is nuts.
I guess I must be nuts then. As a tourney player, I would still consider a game against these 7e marine rumors much easier than a matchup against taxi'd admech or eldar/crons.
We have triple vehicle sets that lose their special ability by knocking one out. A land raider formation that takes up most of an army, a bunch of very "meh" subformations for the gladius. The full company getting a bunch of free razorbacks or pods can make a run at tournaments. Bikers still look good, cents (assuming no change) still look good. Their actual competitive armies that abuse the best units didn't change much, but what they did NOT get, which is what I was hoping for, is a book where you can take whatever you want and have it be at least viable, similar to eldar/crons.
Even if I did play against a ton of free transports, it's still just a bunch of foot marines. Not exactly the most broken model in the game.
They opened up so many more combinations than is reasonable. Necrons are by no ways overpowered compared to this new books rumors. Eldar are if you face just maxed wind riders with scatter and wraithknights. Those are the only really overpowered units. The rest is comparable and if you don't think so Id assume it's rose colored glasses. the new rules are strong. You may just be upset it wasn't chamged the way you wanted but it got beefed a lot. I'd face necron over marines if the generals are of equal level as is
You absolutely can not take anything with eldar. Play a game against a good list and opponent with no win drifters or wraithknights and it's easy unless your list sucks, and again this isn't true as a necron player either
Lolno. Everything in the eldar dex is good. I've been rocking people out with shining spears, dark reapers, striking scorpions, you name it. Most of them ended with 11-0 wins for the eldar in ITC missions.
And if I were running a decurion against myself running this marine book, the decurion wins unless the marine "me" is running one of the already powerful marine builds like cent stars, bikers, or pod spam. (In which case an actual game happens!) Like I said, it's POSSIBLE that the full company might get added to that list as tourney-capable, especially in objective-focused ITC missions, but it's just another msu spam tactic with playing to the mission. You may win, but you aren't ever going to dominate the board against the real supermen of the game. It's the same way I win with blood angels now.
@niv-mizzet -- isn't the whole point of the competitive game to win though? It hardly matters which force would win in 12 turns when the game ends in 6, and one side has more victory points. In the fluff, Imperium technology is far inferior to Necron and Eldar, so being able to win on points (and lose ultimately, in a table-or-nothing game) would be good design, I think.
That being said, you can still DraigoStar, bikespam and all the other fun stuff that you could before. I mean, it looks like you can even get a DraigoStar AND 10 free razorbacks...
I could see myself taking Deathwind pods if they were free.
Deathwinds are so underrated it's crazy. Even I turn my nose at them usually until I play this one guy that ends up clogging the middle of the table with 5 by turn 2 every game. 5 s 5 large blasts is a massive PITA especially once you start killing pods leaving your unit in a ring with no consolidation for the next round.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wait every update for when drop pods get ceramite plating since they drop from orbit
To be Fair the ceramite parts are on the bottom and on the doors that are now facing the floors.
perhaps auto pass on lava terrain
Well in game there is no requirement for the doors to be open like any other transport. Who says they don't blow open then close back up
Requizen wrote: I'm laughing my butt off at people complaining that SM didn't get buffed into the freaking moon like Eldar. The bonuses and changes we've seen so far have been nothing but buffs, and getting free transports in an army known for stocking up on Drop Pods, Rhinos, and Razorbacks already is insane. What I've seen so far easily puts them on par with Necrons imo.
Not being as good as the army with spammable D weapons, GCs, and the most powerful Jetbikes in the game doesn't mean it sucks, lol.
Though I do with Raven Guard were better =\ I think my hypothetical new Space Marine army will be using Ultramarine tactics.
To bad Marines still wont be able to flat out kill off Crons.
Eldar is just a fethin mess and it makes me sad pandas.
Personally liking the Demi Company Assuming dev combat doctrens will be copy pastaed.
4 Multi melta kill all tanks Dev squads, extreme alpha strike Grav devs.
Its gona be fun on the bun.
Wouldn't the Vindicator apocalyptic blast wipe Crons off the map due to bypassing RA?
Requizen wrote: I'm laughing my butt off at people complaining that SM didn't get buffed into the freaking moon like Eldar. The bonuses and changes we've seen so far have been nothing but buffs, and getting free transports in an army known for stocking up on Drop Pods, Rhinos, and Razorbacks already is insane. What I've seen so far easily puts them on par with Necrons imo.
Not being as good as the army with spammable D weapons, GCs, and the most powerful Jetbikes in the game doesn't mean it sucks, lol.
Though I do with Raven Guard were better =\ I think my hypothetical new Space Marine army will be using Ultramarine tactics.
To bad Marines still wont be able to flat out kill off Crons.
Eldar is just a fethin mess and it makes me sad pandas.
Personally liking the Demi Company Assuming dev combat doctrens will be copy pastaed.
4 Multi melta kill all tanks Dev squads, extreme alpha strike Grav devs.
Its gona be fun on the bun.
Wouldn't the Vindicator apocalyptic blast wipe Crons off the map due to bypassing RA?
Noting fully bypasses RP which is the slowed thing.
And the thing that worries me the most being harvest wraiths still get there invul (though this would be one of the best chances at dealing with them.)
Talys wrote: @pretre -- yeah, exactly. Who wouldn't take 1080 (or 880) with a free 550?
I'm thinking a drop Company or Razor Company will be pretty damn effective.
Yeah, I think so -- you can do a mix too. Without mixing models painted for different chapters, I have 5 razorbacks, 7 drop pods and 3 rhinos. Which means I will probably buy more razorbacks...O.o
If the upgrades are free, DWML on the pods would be pretty awesome too.
Talys wrote: @pretre -- yeah, exactly. Who wouldn't take 1080 (or 880) with a free 550?
I'm thinking a drop Company or Razor Company will be pretty damn effective.
Yeah, I think so -- you can do a mix too. Without mixing models painted for different chapters, I have 5 razorbacks, 7 drop pods and 3 rhinos. Which means I will probably buy more razorbacks...O.o
If the upgrades are free, DWML on the pods would be pretty awesome too.
Even without free upgrades, 20 points per lasplas and 10 points per Deathwind is money in the bank.
I posted my 1850 with 12 Drop Pods (with 12 Deathwind), 18 Grav Cannons, 6 Grav Guns, 4 Flamers, Comm Relay and 2 Dreads Already. And that isn't even terribly optimised. And that's 12 Obsec units too.
Talys wrote: @pretre -- yeah, exactly. Who wouldn't take 1080 (or 880) with a free 550?
I'm thinking a drop Company or Razor Company will be pretty damn effective.
Yeah, I think so -- you can do a mix too. Without mixing models painted for different chapters, I have 5 razorbacks, 7 drop pods and 3 rhinos. Which means I will probably buy more razorbacks...O.o
Requizen wrote: I'm laughing my butt off at people complaining that SM didn't get buffed into the freaking moon like Eldar. The bonuses and changes we've seen so far have been nothing but buffs, and getting free transports in an army known for stocking up on Drop Pods, Rhinos, and Razorbacks already is insane. What I've seen so far easily puts them on par with Necrons imo.
Not being as good as the army with spammable D weapons, GCs, and the most powerful Jetbikes in the game doesn't mean it sucks, lol.
Though I do with Raven Guard were better =\ I think my hypothetical new Space Marine army will be using Ultramarine tactics.
To bad Marines still wont be able to flat out kill off Crons.
And that's fine. Necrons are supposed to be the most durable army in the game, that's their shtick. Their shooting is pretty good but not top tier, their Assault is pretty good but outside Wraiths not top tier, their vehicles are all durable but Open Topped, etc. The defining trait of Necrons is durability, so no army should really be able to just "flat out kill them".
Marines will kick their ass in terms of tactical flexibility and vehicle spam. They win in terms of special and heavy weapon output as well, and artillery.
Talys wrote: @pretre -- yeah, exactly. Who wouldn't take 1080 (or 880) with a free 550?
I'm thinking a drop Company or Razor Company will be pretty damn effective.
Yeah, I think so -- you can do a mix too. Without mixing models painted for different chapters, I have 5 razorbacks, 7 drop pods and 3 rhinos. Which means I will probably buy more razorbacks...O.o
Razorspam is back after 1 edition hiatus
This is actually what I'm thinking for my hypothetical SM. Razorspam with a Company. Sure, you can kill off a Razorback pretty easily. But what about a whole buttload of them?
Requizen wrote: I'm laughing my butt off at people complaining that SM didn't get buffed into the freaking moon like Eldar. The bonuses and changes we've seen so far have been nothing but buffs, and getting free transports in an army known for stocking up on Drop Pods, Rhinos, and Razorbacks already is insane. What I've seen so far easily puts them on par with Necrons imo.
Not being as good as the army with spammable D weapons, GCs, and the most powerful Jetbikes in the game doesn't mean it sucks, lol.
Though I do with Raven Guard were better =\ I think my hypothetical new Space Marine army will be using Ultramarine tactics.
^agree
I don't understand why people hate on D weapons yet give grav a fething pass. It's the same gun almost when you break it down, it can hurt ANYTHING in the game and the more elite and expensive the target, the better it gets. I don't get why ITC felt the need to jump the shark and newter D when now the last two books in a row have so much cheap spammable grav it is stupid.
I watched the last frontline stream and the neutered version of D scythe guard came in and literally only killed one kataphron thanks to their asinine D tweak. The irony was the unit had heavy grav canons and deleted the whole scytheguard unit in return. 315 point unit creamed by a 165 stock unit + dominus. Same thing with the wraith knight, he did jack because his heavy D canons were terrible.
There is probably 3-4 times as much grav in a marine list then any list from eldar with D, it is amazing how massive a boost devastators just got with grav canons/amps. You take them in 10 man units and your getting 2 squads with 2 canons each plus a combi in one and a free fething pod!
I'm just hoping GW derped and somehow worded it so that you're allowed to substitute Crusader Squads for Tactical Squads in the Demi-Company. Why yes, I would like 6 free Land Raiders, thankyouverymuch!
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm just hoping GW derped and somehow worded it so that you're allowed to substitute Crusader Squads for Tactical Squads in the Demi-Company. Why yes, I would like 6 free Land Raiders, thankyouverymuch!
Either way templars appear to have gotten some very nice buffs.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Hey look, a Forge World Devastator Squad is cheaper (not including postage) in Australia and gives you 5 of the heavy weapon of your choice. Unfortunately there's no Grav Cannons.
Even the Assault Squad from FW is cheaper by ~$2, though it lacks some of the options (all of which except for the Eviscerator is probably in your bitz box anyway)
When in doubt, use Volkites as Counts-As Gravcannons.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I'm just hoping GW derped and somehow worded it so that you're allowed to substitute Crusader Squads for Tactical Squads in the Demi-Company. Why yes, I would like 6 free Land Raiders, thankyouverymuch!
If you take 2 Demi-Companies, you get a full Company. (First company with a Captain and the second with a Chaplain). If done so, any unit that is able to purchase a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, may do so without any additional cost.
If that's a properly reported rule, no free Land Raiders.
Requizen wrote: I'm laughing my butt off at people complaining that SM didn't get buffed into the freaking moon like Eldar. The bonuses and changes we've seen so far have been nothing but buffs, and getting free transports in an army known for stocking up on Drop Pods, Rhinos, and Razorbacks already is insane. What I've seen so far easily puts them on par with Necrons imo.
Not being as good as the army with spammable D weapons, GCs, and the most powerful Jetbikes in the game doesn't mean it sucks, lol.
Though I do with Raven Guard were better =\ I think my hypothetical new Space Marine army will be using Ultramarine tactics.
^agree
I don't understand why people hate on D weapons yet give grav a fething pass. It's the same gun almost when you break it down, it can hurt ANYTHING in the game and the more elite and expensive the target, the better it gets. I don't get why ITC felt the need to jump the shark and newter D when now the last two books in a row have so much cheap spammable grav it is stupid.
I watched the last frontline stream and the neutered version of D scythe guard came in and literally only killed one kataphron thanks to their asinine D tweak. The irony was the unit had heavy grav canons and deleted the whole scytheguard unit in return. 315 point unit creamed by a 165 stock unit + dominus. Same thing with the wraith knight, he did jack because his heavy D canons were terrible.
There is probably 3-4 times as much grav in a marine list then any list from eldar with D, it is amazing how massive a boost devastators just got with grav canons/amps. You take them in 10 man units and your getting 2 squads with 2 canons each plus a combi in one and a free fething pod!
Stop talking sense man! Haven't you drunk the Kool-Aid yet - the new codex is absolute trash and does nothing for those poor, downtrodden Loyalists. Marines are still the worst army in the game!
Ultramarinres:
- Can use one battle doctrine (Tac, Dev or Assault) once per game. Can use Tac once, Dev once, and Assault once.
White Scars
- Reroll when running
- Bikes get skilled rider, and +1S to HoW attacks
Imperial Fists
- Reroll "1" to hit when using bolt weapons (Bolt pistol, boltgun, heavy bolter, assault bolter and combi-weapons)
- Reroll to penétrate against buildings. Devs and Dev cents have tankhunter SR.
-Black Templars
- Crusade + Adamantium Will
- No Libs
- If a unit loses a model during any shooting phase, that unit gets Counterattack and Rage.
Iron Hands
- Characters and vehicles have the "It will not die" SR. Techmarines have +1 to repair
- Non, vehicle models get FnP (6+). If model already has FnP, gains +1 instead.
Salamanders
- FnP (4+) vs flamers. Reroll to wound and to penetrate when firing flamers.
- All characters improve one weapon to Mastercrafted
Raven Guard
- Shrouded during until turn 2. May add +1 to night fight roll
- May use jump packs both in Movement and Assault phase. Reroll to wound HoW attacks.
Some info about the Special Characters
Kor'sarro Khan
- Gives Scout to the Bikes in his army
- Give 1D3 victory points if he kills the enemy warlord in a challenge.
Warlord trait: 12" bubble of rerolling L tests
Vulkan
- No changes
Warlord trait: FnP
Shrike
- No changes
Warlord trait: Fear. Fear tests with 3D6
Lysander
- No changes
Warlord trait: FnP
Kantor
- Sternguard vets have objetive secured SR
- Oath of Rynn: same
Warlord trait: FnP
Helbrecht
- No changes
- Warlord and unit have Furious charge
Grimaldus
- Cenobyte servitors give FnP at 6"
- Units in same Detachment use warlord L
Talys wrote: @niv-mizzet -- isn't the whole point of the competitive game to win though? It hardly matters which force would win in 12 turns when the game ends in 6, and one side has more victory points. In the fluff, Imperium technology is far inferior to Necron and Eldar, so being able to win on points (and lose ultimately, in a table-or-nothing game) would be good design, I think.
That being said, you can still DraigoStar, bikespam and all the other fun stuff that you could before. I mean, it looks like you can even get a DraigoStar AND 10 free razorbacks...
No one ever said that the worst army in this game can't beat the best army in this game. The issue is that some armies have a downhill coasting ride during games, while other armies have an uphill struggle.
An additional consideration during the ITC events because of this is tiebreakers; when I run an MSU style list that just tries to play to the mission and do well, I end up winning either 6-5 or 5-1 or something similar.
On the flipside, an elder list doing well has consistent 11-0 or 11-1 wins.
This means that if both I and that Eldar guy end up at the end of the tournament having never played each other, but with the same w/l record, he outranks me by default. Some of them don't use the 1000 point system for win/loss ratio as well, which means at those you're at a SEVERE disadvantage, and you can be outranked by someone with a worse record if all their wins were shutouts. (I went to one where the wins were only 10 points, and while I did lose to 1st place eldar guy, even had I won, he would've still outranked me just because the rest of his record was all perfect wins, and mine were struggles.)
And eldar don't take 12 turns to win by tabling lol. Part of my MSU strategy currently is to null deploy with a couple pods and massive turn 2+ reserves and submit as little of my army as possible to damage for as long as possible just to stay alive, and then pray for t5 end, because I can still get tabled despite all that in t6, and definitely t7.
Raven Guard are sick. Sure losing scout sucks but a reliable 4+ cover save in the open and your assault squads are fast as feth? That's way better. Start in the enemy's face and go tear them up.
Ratflinger wrote: Do we have any scans on that stuff? As is I am tempted to call humbug.
Only one devastator squad per demi company?
No way for Black Templars to use one of their few remaining little snow flakes?
Who knows? But I am not convinced.
This is the guy who has posted the last few leaks with very high accuracy. Details may be missing (Crusader Squads being used in Demicompany, for example), but for the most part he's been on target for Eldar and Mechanicus (and I think he did Necrons as well?).
Ratflinger wrote: Do we have any scans on that stuff? As is I am tempted to call humbug.
Only one devastator squad per demi company?
No way for Black Templars to use one of their few remaining little snow flakes?
Considering there's only 2 Dev squads in a full Battle Company, and the formation is a Demi-Company, as in half a full company, this makes complete sense.
Templars don't fight in Battle Companies anyways. They're organised into Crusades which really have no formal structural organisation, just whatever the relevant Marshal wants, along with support assets that specific Crusade will likely require to attain it's goals.
Again, fluffy as hell that BT's don't get the benefits of the basic codex formations, considering they tend to wipe their arses with St.Girlyman's magazine!
Templars can still use all the other formations alongside their special snowflake Crusader Squads though.
Las wrote: Raven Guard are sick. Sure losing scout sucks but a reliable 4+ cover save in the open and your assault squads are fast as feth? That's way better. Start in the enemy's face and go tear them up.
Starting in the enemy's face isn't really possible without Scout though...
Las wrote: Raven Guard are sick. Sure losing scout sucks but a reliable 4+ cover save in the open and your assault squads are fast as feth? That's way better. Start in the enemy's face and go tear them up.
Starting in the enemy's face isn't really possible without Scout though...
Start at the edge of your zone, move 12" assault charge with the reroll. You might get a lucky t1 charge if you catch your opponent off guard. Besides, it's not like you could charge t1 with scout. At least this way your dudes will be alive for a t2 charge. Hell, it makes podded ravens pretty kick ass, too
Ratflinger wrote: Do we have any scans on that stuff? As is I am tempted to call humbug.
Only one devastator squad per demi company?
No way for Black Templars to use one of their few remaining little snow flakes?
Considering there's only 2 Dev squads in a full Battle Company, and the formation is a Demi-Company, as in half a full company, this makes complete sense.
Templars don't fight in Battle Companies anyways. They're organised into Crusades which really have no formal structural organisation, just whatever the relevant Marshal wants, along with support assets that specific Crusade will likely require to attain it's goals.
Again, fluffy as hell that BT's don't get the benefits of the basic codex formations, considering they tend to wipe their arses with St.Girlyman's magazine!
Templars can still use all the other formations alongside their special snowflake Crusader Squads though.
Yeah, perhaps I worded it somewhat strangely. Sure, it makes sense, but it seems so damn inflexible which makes me doubt the validity of it all.
Look at necrons and Eldar, there are some flexibility in how you build your Reclamation Legion and the spehss elf equivalent.
The formations seem somewhat strange to me. If they prove true, I have to admit that I will be more than a little disappointed. The formation benefits do not seem awful, but it all seems dull with little room slowed for personal choice. Playing basically the same list over and over seems boring.
The Warseer poster being quoted says the RG chapter tactic doesn't apply the units that begin embarked... so that really limits the effectiveness of shrouding first turn.
I think it's a big net loss to exchange scour for the ability to get a couple of Assault Squads up the board quickly. In DoW deployment you'd need a 12" charge, and if you fail that unit is sitting in the open ready to die the next turn when shrouding expires.
Iron Hands CT for IWND on 12 Drop Pods and 2 Dreads for the lols and 6+ FNP on the 62 Marines
Two Demis for Full Company:
Captain - 90
Chaplain - 90
4 Tacs with Combi-Grav and Grav Can, Drop pod with Deathwind - 125/ea
2 Tacs with Combi-Grav and Grav Can, Drop pod with Locator Beacons - 125/ea
2 Assaults with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90 ea
1 Devs with 4 GC and Rerolls in Drop Pod - 215
1 Devs with 4 GC and Rerolls in Drop Pod/Locator Beacon - 225
Dreadnought (MM/PF) in Drop Pod/Deathwind - 110
Dreadnought (MM/PF) in Drop Pod/Deathwind - 110
Aegis with Comm - 80
Las wrote: Raven Guard are sick. Sure losing scout sucks but a reliable 4+ cover save in the open and your assault squads are fast as feth? That's way better. Start in the enemy's face and go tear them up.
Starting in the enemy's face isn't really possible without Scout though...
Start at the edge of your zone, move 12" assault charge with the reroll. You might get a lucky t1 charge if you catch your opponent off guard. Besides, it's not like you could charge t1 with scout. At least this way your dudes will be alive for a t2 charge. Hell, it makes podded ravens pretty kick ass, too
Their Assault Marines could already do that, using JPs twice a turn. What has been traded is Scout for Shrouded, which seems like a big loss to me. It might be a little more thematic, but Scout was actually one of the best CTs for changing how a Chapter actually played, making them amazing in Rhinos and surprisingly quick even on foot. Getting into special/double tap/charge range a turn earlier is far better than a turn of boosted cover.
On another note, I may be the only person who thinks Termies are too cheap now! TDA with power fists for less than the round 200 feels wrong!
Ratflinger wrote: Do we have any scans on that stuff? As is I am tempted to call humbug.
Only one devastator squad per demi company?
No way for Black Templars to use one of their few remaining little snow flakes?
Considering there's only 2 Dev squads in a full Battle Company, and the formation is a Demi-Company, as in half a full company, this makes complete sense.
Templars don't fight in Battle Companies anyways. They're organised into Crusades which really have no formal structural organisation, just whatever the relevant Marshal wants, along with support assets that specific Crusade will likely require to attain it's goals.
Again, fluffy as hell that BT's don't get the benefits of the basic codex formations, considering they tend to wipe their arses with St.Girlyman's magazine!
Templars can still use all the other formations alongside their special snowflake Crusader Squads though.
Yeah, perhaps I worded it somewhat strangely. Sure, it makes sense, but it seems so damn inflexible which makes me doubt the validity of it all.
Look at necrons and Eldar, there are some flexibility in how you build your Reclamation Legion and the spehss elf equivalent.
The formations seem somewhat strange to me. If they prove true, I have to admit that I will be more than a little disappointed. The formation benefits do not seem awful, but it all seems dull with little room slowed for personal choice. Playing basically the same list over and over seems boring.
Eldar sure, but not Necrons. The only variety in Reclamation Legion is which version of Immortals you take and if you take Lychguard or not. Every Reclamation Legion I've seen looks pretty much the same except for transports and if you take Zahndrekh over a regular Overlord.
Desubot wrote: "Lysander
- No changes
Warlord trait: FnP "
Thank god they got rid of the last one where you must kill something something in CC.
I am looking at Pedro Kantor with FNP and am very happy. But now I kinda want to get Lysander as well. If Lysander meets the criteria for a Captain for a Demi-Company, I will be running him and Pedro for some shenannigans.
0-1 Command Squad
0-1 Dread
Special, Heavy, and Sarge in each Tac squad
4 Heavy choices and a Sarge choice in each Dev squad
Dev Cents instead of Devestators
JP/no, 2 Specials, and Sarge in each ASM squad
Bikes or Assault Cents instead of ASM
*three* DT for each to pick from
That's a lot of options. Compare to the Guardian Defender warhost options?
-Heavy weapon and Warlock for each Guardian squad. Like a Tac, but no special weapons, and fewer Leader options by a lot
-Heavy weapons choices on the Vyper and WarWalker. Much like Dev heavy weapons.
-Farseer has options, but not nearly as much as a Captain.
Look at all the optionals in the SM formations. So many 0-N or A-B options. Did CWE have *any*?
We all know CWE is OP, but the SM company has *many many* more options. CWE Warhosts are actually quite restrictive, especially comparatively.
If the Gladius Strike Force is a Detachment, isn't it possible for you to add other stuff on that isn't a formation or whatnot? Like add in a unit of Sternguard or a Land Raider?
Nocturnus wrote: While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.
They buffed quite a bit. The few changes they made did make marines a gak load more powerful. Anyone who doesn't see it is nuts
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Mr Morden wrote: Wasn't one of the many bleets from Eldar Apologists that "all " new codexes would be like that one.
Have we now had several Codexes without any new units - just redone ones? Thats not a bad thing I guess. maybe no more Sleighs?
If any codex doesn't need new units its marines
You people are insane you can squadron predators and they get tank/monster hunter. You can get three big blasts with awesome anti troop stats and shred and pinning
There's a formation where every unit get a free dedicated transport... Marines are going to trump eldar
Judging by what others are saying, I think you are in the minority. For competitive play, Marines are largely in the same boat they are currently in. Their units are merely okay. They failed to address the problem units( Termies, Dreads) and added grav to everything else. Whoopie-frickin-doo. Eldar are going to smash this army to pieces. And talk about laziness. They couldn't even be bothered to update or add new relics? Formations are okay-ish but nothing outstanding. And at 1500 points, you'll struggle to take advantage of them. Very disappointed by this release.
TheNewBlood wrote: Am I reading this right? If the rumors are true, did Loyalist Terminators really go down to 35 ppm? You do know what this means, right?
Loyalist Termies are useable! Even the shooty ones! Praise the Emperor!
Sucks to be Blood Angels though. But then again, they are paying 5 points for Furious Charge Termies...
Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield went up 5 points though. So, all other Termies are cheaper, but the ones that most people used are the same price. Seems ok to me, imo.
You also have the problem with this demi company/company stuff, that some chapter tactics are more or less useless.
1-2 units of bikes for White Scars? Woo.
1-2 assault squads for Black Templars? Great.
1-2 devastator units for Imperial Fists? Splendid.
The add-on formations are huge and cumbersome.
And I do not really consider the fact that you get to pick wargear and weapons for marines to be some inherent customiseability in the formation thingy. That is just how marines work.
I do not know, but the whole thing looks like a hoax to me, and if it is not, that looks like such a low effort job for the most high profile codex.
casvalremdeikun wrote: If the Gladius Strike Force is a Detachment, isn't it possible for you to add other stuff on that isn't a formation or whatnot? Like add in a unit of Sternguard or a Land Raider?
Depends what options it allows. You can always take both it and a CAD. I know the Eldar one had some ala carte options in addition to the sub-formations.
casvalremdeikun wrote: If the Gladius Strike Force is a Detachment, isn't it possible for you to add other stuff on that isn't a formation or whatnot? Like add in a unit of Sternguard or a Land Raider?
Depends what options it allows. You can always take both it and a CAD. I know the Eldar one had some ala carte options in addition to the sub-formations.
As long as I can put Pedro, an Honour Guard, and some Sternguard in, I will be happy.
Nocturnus wrote: Judging by what others are saying, I think you are in the minority. For competitive play, Marines are largely in the same boat they are currently in. Their units are merely okay. They failed to address the problem units( Termies, Dreads) and added grav to everything else. Whoopie-frickin-doo. Eldar are going to smash this army to pieces. And talk about laziness. They couldn't even be bothered to update or add new relics? Formations are okay-ish but nothing outstanding. And at 1500 points, you'll struggle to take advantage of them. Very disappointed by this release.
I don't get the "buff entitlement" mentality. Coming from a guy who mostly plays space Marines curtently, but has a huge collection of other stuff:
- Space Marines are not a broken faction
- They win plenty of tournaments
- They are a very popular and versatile faction
- They are IoM and BB with other factions for awesome combos
- After this codex, they will be stronger, not weaker
If GW did nothing except give SMFA fro pods, that would be a big buff. But no, there's plenty of cool stuff. Why should every formation be so good that it will curb stomp most of the other factions best lists?
After CWE codex, SM have been doing fine. Now, they will do better.
Oh yeah, and how are dreadnoughts getting 4 attacks in the statline not a huge buff?!
Personally I am not as much worried that the codex will be bad as much as I am concerned that it will be really dull.
Space Marines are somewhat of a tertiary army for me right now, and if the rumours prove to be true they will likely stay that way.
I do not expect them to dumpster CWE, or be as good. But I do hope they are fun to play.
I think it is perfectly reasonable to be disappointed if the codex is just a reprint with a few lackluster formations that look like they were written up during a coffee break or two.
That's fair enoug, Ratflinger, but would it really be better if they could "dumpster Eldar" as you put it? I think that would be horrible.
Also, keep in mind that like it or not, 40k is a game of allies for some factions, and taken as a whole, IoM looks to be getting a pretty decent boost.
While I don't think dreadnoughts are going to now be the best unit ever, I think A4 makes them a lot better for people who want to field them, or to not be deadweight in a formation.
Talys wrote: That's fair enoug, Ratflinger, but would it really be better if they could "dumpster Eldar" as you put it? I think that would be horrible.
Also, keep in mind that like it or not, 40k is a game of allies for some factions, and taken as a whole, IoM looks to be getting a pretty decent boost.
While I don't think dreadnoughts are going to now be the best unit ever, I think A4 makes them a lot better for people who want to field them, or to not be deadweight in a formation.
No, it would not be better if they did dumpster CWE, or if they even were on par due to the ally system. Eldar are over the top strong.
I just think that the formations look dull and overly cumbersome, and I would be more than a little disappointed with the army construction benefiting some chapters immensely while doing very little for others.
All in all, it makes me doubt the accuracy of the leaks, especially when there are no scans or pictures. And like I have already stated, if the rumours indeed are true, I will be disappointed. Not because SM would have a hard time measuring against Eldar or whatever, but because my initial impressions from what I have read here is that the release appears to be incredibly low effort and lacking in cohesion.
what do you guys think of the Land Raider formation, worth it ?
It’s got some nice perks. Unlike the tank squadrons, it’s just a formation, so you don’t all have to shoot at the same thing. I do think it’s a little crazy to dedicate ~750 points to 3 tanks. It’s a very R/P/S list. But if you are the kind of person tempted to roll a heavy armor spearhead, it looks OK. Ignoring some damage results will help keep you rolling, but you still loose HP, and can still blow up. So there are going to be a lot of hard counters out there.
But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens
Do they, though? Baleflamer is not a "Flamer Weapon" as defined in the BRB.
We will need to wait for 8th edition for that.
It really depends on the wording. if its just template then yeah they have protection. otherwise bale flamer and various chem and darkeldariee things and neuron weapons wont proc them.
what do you guys think of the Land Raider formation, worth it ?
It’s got some nice perks. Unlike the tank squadrons, it’s just a formation, so you don’t all have to shoot at the same thing. I do think it’s a little crazy to dedicate ~750 points to 3 tanks. It’s a very R/P/S list. But if you are the kind of person tempted to roll a heavy armor spearhead, it looks OK. Ignoring some damage results will help keep you rolling, but you still loose HP, and can still blow up. So there are going to be a lot of hard counters out there.
I’m more of a TAC guy, so it’s not my cup of tea.
If really wanted to take it to extremes, you can now do an all-armour SM list. Combine the LR formation with the Techmarine+Tank Squadrons one and you could get the 3 Raiders, and maybe 2 Vindis, 2 Whirlwinds and 2 Press into a 1850 list easily. Shove the Techmarines into the Raiders and bring the noise!
what do you guys think of the Land Raider formation, worth it ?
It’s got some nice perks. Unlike the tank squadrons, it’s just a formation, so you don’t all have to shoot at the same thing. I do think it’s a little crazy to dedicate ~750 points to 3 tanks. It’s a very R/P/S list. But if you are the kind of person tempted to roll a heavy armor spearhead, it looks OK. Ignoring some damage results will help keep you rolling, but you still loose HP, and can still blow up. So there are going to be a lot of hard counters out there.
I’m more of a TAC guy, so it’s not my cup of tea.
If really wanted to take it to extremes, you can now do an all-armour SM list. Combine the LR formation with the Techmarine+Tank Squadrons one and you could get the 3 Raiders, and maybe 2 Vindis, 2 Whirlwinds and 2 Press into a 1850 list easily. Shove the Techmarines into the Raiders and bring the noise!
Assuming you can take the formations in a non-Gladius detachment, seeing as the Eldar/Necron ones require a War Host/Decurion respectively.
Most formations can be taken on their own, even ones that are part of the Multiple-Formation-Detachments. There are exceptions, like the Auxiliary Eldar formations that can only come in a Warhost, but something like the Aspect Shrine or Wraith Host formation could be taken separately and/or in conjunction with other detachments. I'd guess most of these will be the same.
Nocturnus wrote: Judging by what others are saying, I think you are in the minority. For competitive play, Marines are largely in the same boat they are currently in. Their units are merely okay. They failed to address the problem units( Termies, Dreads) and added grav to everything else. Whoopie-frickin-doo. Eldar are going to smash this army to pieces. And talk about laziness. They couldn't even be bothered to update or add new relics? Formations are okay-ish but nothing outstanding. And at 1500 points, you'll struggle to take advantage of them. Very disappointed by this release.
I don't get the "buff entitlement" mentality. Coming from a guy who mostly plays space Marines curtently, but has a huge collection of other stuff:
- Space Marines are not a broken faction
- They win plenty of tournaments
- They are a very popular and versatile faction
- They are IoM and BB with other factions for awesome combos
- After this codex, they will be stronger, not weaker
If GW did nothing except give SMFA fro pods, that would be a big buff. But no, there's plenty of cool stuff. Why should every formation be so good that it will curb stomp most of the other factions best lists?
After CWE codex, SM have been doing fine. Now, they will do better.
Oh yeah, and how are dreadnoughts getting 4 attacks in the statline not a huge buff?!
I don't have "buff entitlement". I was merely hoping for more than a simple cut and paste job of the current codex. Marines are not weak. They are mediocre. And whether people want to admit it or not, the Eldar codex changed the game. Seeing as it's a new book, the only way to balance things out would be to put the other books on a level playing field. Formations are fine for big games but how are you going to use them in 1000-1500pt games? As for dreads, they still die from any sort of concentrated fire. Who cares about 4 attacks when you're never going to get there to use them? But, I am not looking to argue. I think overall, GW could have made this book really interesting but instead opted for a half assed job. It really isn't much different than the current book.
I don't know if anyone has brought this up or not.... I play a pretty heavy forgeworld iron hands list with a master of the forge so that I can take more than 1 "relic of the armory" tank. What are the odds that this is now broken because there is no longer a master of the forge option in the codex?
I would hope that they will FAQ it to state just techmarine or remove the requirement.
But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens
Do they, though? Baleflamer is not a "Flamer Weapon" as defined in the BRB.
Why not? There is no "flamer" USR the way there's a melta USR. It also has flamer in the name and is a weapon specific to a codex. If the CT says FNP against flamer and heavy flamer specifically, sure. Otherwise I'd argue that they get it.
It is broken, they won't FAQ it, make do. Just like Blood Angels make do since the Reclusiarch is gone. House rule it, like every other broken rule in the game. Turn it into an HQ Techmarine or whatever the best equivalent becomes.
But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens
Do they, though? Baleflamer is not a "Flamer Weapon" as defined in the BRB.
Why not? There is no "flamer" USR the way there's a melta USR. It also has flamer in the name and is a weapon specific to a codex. If the CT says FNP against flamer and heavy flamer specifically, sure. Otherwise I'd argue that they get it.
But "Flamer" also has a definition in the BRB and Baleflamer isn't in it.
But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens
Do they, though? Baleflamer is not a "Flamer Weapon" as defined in the BRB.
Why not? There is no "flamer" USR the way there's a melta USR. It also has flamer in the name and is a weapon specific to a codex. If the CT says FNP against flamer and heavy flamer specifically, sure. Otherwise I'd argue that they get it.
But "Flamer" also has a definition in the BRB and Baleflamer isn't in it.
Are Tau fusion weapons there under melta? And how do they interact with, say, ceramite plating? They have the melta rule right? (Honest question I'm nowhere near a brb)
Hmmm. Just noticed that Vulkan has FNP instead of Iron Resolve! That's a cool buff.
I even own the model (unpainted)... too bad I only have 1 metal painted space marine painted salamaders hahahaha.
@Nocturnus -- I wasn't specifically referring to you, by the way. I think Marines are incredibly strong, especially once you consider allies. I know a lot of people don't like to, but whatever, Battle Brothers is a core part of the game, and if Marines were equal to Eldar without allies, that would introduce way more problems once you factored in AdMech, Grey Knights, and Skitarii.
I'm curious as to whether you think Codex CWE is more than a simple cut and paste job out of the 6e Codex CWE. Really, I think the SM changes sound no more or less game-changing, other than that CWE changed spammable units from Wave Serpents to Windriders.
Putting aside power level, there are a whole wack-load of neat formations. Some of them might be powerful -- for instance, Strike Force Ultra could be a sleeper, but I'm not sure. With an extra attack, Terminators could be scary, with T1 teleport in. But I'm not sure til we try it... at least it gives me something to do with the shelves full of painted terminators I own. Some of them like the Librarians seem kind of neat.
It sounds like you can make a tank army too, which would be really cool, especially with Techmarine buffs and squadron bonuses (which we haven't seen yet, except that they're "really powerful" or some such).
And drop pods being in the base codex is a pretty huge change/buff, and all that grav is significant too.
Dunno, I'm pretty excited, man. Maybe not as powerful as D weapons and scatter lasers, but certainly a power level increase, and significant changes.
Also, my gut tells me that if you can take 5 man tac squads, a full gladius company will be competitive. Regarding sub-1000 point games, I can't say. The only sub-1850 that I play is Kill Team, and those are much smaller games with a whole different set of rules. Otherwise, the point levels we play at are 1850, 2000, 2500, 3000-4000, with 3000+ games reserved for games with a lot of titans and large, expensive models.
What I'm most curious about: Why is the Limited Edition 165 page, and the regular edition 200 page?
Are Tau fusion weapons there under melta? And how do they interact with, say, ceramite plating? They have the melta rule right? (Honest question I'm nowhere near a brb)
I'm sure Tau fusion blaster is a Melta weapon.
Edit -- so, yeah, ceramite plating works against fusion blaster (as it protects against the extra damage from any weapon with the Melta SR).
Killermonkey wrote: I don't know if anyone has brought this up or not.... I play a pretty heavy forgeworld iron hands list with a master of the forge so that I can take more than 1 "relic of the armory" tank. What are the odds that this is now broken because there is no longer a master of the forge option in the codex?
I would hope that they will FAQ it to state just techmarine or remove the requirement.
SharkoutofWata wrote: It is broken, they won't FAQ it, make do. Just like Blood Angels make do since the Reclusiarch is gone. House rule it, like every other broken rule in the game. Turn it into an HQ Techmarine or whatever the best equivalent becomes.
House ruling has always been possible. His question is "if I am playing in a tournament, are they going to let me use my sicarian, raptor, and contemptor all at once" and the answer is no.
Killermonkey wrote: I don't know if anyone has brought this up or not.... I play a pretty heavy forgeworld iron hands list with a master of the forge so that I can take more than 1 "relic of the armory" tank. What are the odds that this is now broken because there is no longer a master of the forge option in the codex?
I would hope that they will FAQ it to state just techmarine or remove the requirement.
I actually like the extra shot rule for the Terminators when they strike in. Entirely helps one of the issues of damage input, even if it is only for a turn.
All these formations dont fix SMs main problem. MEQ & Rhino chasis tanks are way to easy to destroy. Every post about any tactic, formation or unit is always, "But how many MEQ can it kill?". The demi or full company farmation are built on 50-100 MEQ. Theres no forum on any site lacking in "How to kill MEQ" posts.
In most of the new formations the marines didnt get harder to kill. Vindis, whirlwinds, etc are no harder to pop either. Plus the loss of a single vehicle means the survivors lost their USRs. If a single necron warrior died & the decurion stopped working would you call that awesome? How about 1 windrider dies & they lose jink? Does that sound fair?
Space Marine players wanted better marines, not more. Theres multiple threads about "Should marines be more elite?", & the answer is always YES. Instead we've got IG marines. This way eldar & necron players feel like bad asses with cut & paste net lists, while SM remove piles of cheap MEQ. With these new formations we'll feel like we've still got a chance after removing a tank squadron & 20 marines.
Killermonkey wrote: I don't know if anyone has brought this up or not.... I play a pretty heavy forgeworld iron hands list with a master of the forge so that I can take more than 1 "relic of the armory" tank. What are the odds that this is now broken because there is no longer a master of the forge option in the codex?
I would hope that they will FAQ it to state just techmarine or remove the requirement.
SharkoutofWata wrote: It is broken, they won't FAQ it, make do. Just like Blood Angels make do since the Reclusiarch is gone. House rule it, like every other broken rule in the game. Turn it into an HQ Techmarine or whatever the best equivalent becomes.
House ruling has always been possible. His question is "if I am playing in a tournament, are they going to let me use my sicarian, raptor, and contemptor all at once" and the answer is no.
What tournament has their heads up their backsides as much as GW? ITC put out a FAQ very promptly allowing Blood Angels to take a Chaplain instead of a Reclusiarch, and Space Wolves to take a normal Rune Priest and skipping the Saga of the whatever. That is a tournament house rule that any organizer can understandably get behind. Asking a tournament organizer to house rule it is endlessly more helpful than waiting for a GWFAQ that will never come.
Talys wrote: Hmmm. Just noticed that Vulkan has FNP instead of Iron Resolve! That's a cool buff.
That is one thing that concerns me about these leaks.
Lysander is also written as FnP, yet picture “leaks” from the digital preview says Lysander have Iron Resolve.
So either they changed the Iron Resolve trait from the old thing to be FnP or parts of these rumors are wrong.
Talys wrote: Hmmm. Just noticed that Vulkan has FNP instead of Iron Resolve! That's a cool buff.
That is one thing that concerns me about these leaks.
Lysander is also written as FnP, yet picture “leaks” from the digital preview says Lysander have Iron Resolve.
So either they changed the Iron Resolve trait from the old thing to be FnP or parts of these rumors are wrong.
Killermonkey wrote: I don't know if anyone has brought this up or not.... I play a pretty heavy forgeworld iron hands list with a master of the forge so that I can take more than 1 "relic of the armory" tank. What are the odds that this is now broken because there is no longer a master of the forge option in the codex?
I would hope that they will FAQ it to state just techmarine or remove the requirement.
SharkoutofWata wrote: It is broken, they won't FAQ it, make do. Just like Blood Angels make do since the Reclusiarch is gone. House rule it, like every other broken rule in the game. Turn it into an HQ Techmarine or whatever the best equivalent becomes.
House ruling has always been possible. His question is "if I am playing in a tournament, are they going to let me use my sicarian, raptor, and contemptor all at once" and the answer is no.
What tournament has their heads up their backsides as much as GW? ITC put out a FAQ very promptly allowing Blood Angels to take a Chaplain instead of a Reclusiarch, and Space Wolves to take a normal Rune Priest and skipping the Saga of the whatever. That is a tournament house rule that any organizer can understandably get behind. Asking a tournament organizer to house rule it is endlessly more helpful than waiting for a GWFAQ that will never come.
Well, our local TO gave up re-writing GW's game for them a while ago. So now its allllll the stupid broken stuff in the game is allowed. Mabye you should mention it on frontline gamings twitch stream, see if they plan on addressing this.
Counterattack and Rage could be cool for BTs but it's a shame that the Demi-Company could be locked out to BTs without an alternative formation for Crusader Squads.
If the Dread rumor is true, then awesome. Gives me another reason to run an Ironclad dread with the big Stormraven Squad I wanted to make.
From what I can see, does this mean that BT also lose out on their Accept any Challenge, No Matter Odds rule they had from before? That would suck if true, since it really fit their modelling after Sigismund's emphasis on close combat and challenging enemy champions.
Grimskul wrote: From what I can see, does this mean that BT also lose out on their Accept any Challenge, No Matter Odds rule they had from before? That would suck if true, since it really fit their modelling after Sigismund's emphasis on close combat and challenging enemy champions.
How does that suck? You can still challenge all you want and nobody is stopping you.
Grimskul wrote: From what I can see, does this mean that BT also lose out on their Accept any Challenge, No Matter Odds rule they had from before? That would suck if true, since it really fit their modelling after Sigismund's emphasis on close combat and challenging enemy champions.
How does that suck? You can still challenge all you want and nobody is stopping you.
...Because they lose fluffy buffs like re-roll to hits and rending?
Grimskul wrote: From what I can see, does this mean that BT also lose out on their Accept any Challenge, No Matter Odds rule they had from before? That would suck if true, since it really fit their modelling after Sigismund's emphasis on close combat and challenging enemy champions.
How does that suck? You can still challenge all you want and nobody is stopping you.
Fluff reasons presumably, just wouldn't "feel right" to turn challenges down as a Black Templar I'm guessing.
Red Marine wrote: All these formations dont fix SMs main problem. MEQ & Rhino chasis tanks are way to easy to destroy. Every post about any tactic, formation or unit is always, "But how many MEQ can it kill?". The demi or full company farmation are built on 50-100 MEQ. Theres no forum on any site lacking in "How to kill MEQ" posts.
No matter what happened with the new SM codex, though, this wasn't going to change. Making marines 'more elite' is a silly idea (and one undoubtedly favored by mostly Marine players, of course) - when they're -already- 'elite'. They're pretty much the standard by which everyone else is measured, at least in the groups I've played with before.
Why are there so many posts about beating MEQ forces? Maybe because MEQ forces make up the largest plurality in the community? I admit whenever I make a list, I always look first at AP3 weapons. When 99% of my opponent's army has a 3+ save - what do you expect us to do, go with AP4 weapons and just hope for the best?
And someone else (not you, Red) complained that the marine dread is 'only' AV12, and will suffer from focus fire... isn't that what -anyone- with AV12 and a powerful fig has to worry about? That isn't limited to marine dreads.
The codex offers upgrades. LOTS of upgrades. Some of them are strong (wasn't there something about free transports?), and some are subtle - but obviously some Marine players were hoping for more OOT goodness.
Talys makes some very level-headed comments- Marines are stronger now - even if they aren't as strong as some would like.
But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens
Do they, though? Baleflamer is not a "Flamer Weapon" as defined in the BRB.
Why not? There is no "flamer" USR the way there's a melta USR. It also has flamer in the name and is a weapon specific to a codex. If the CT says FNP against flamer and heavy flamer specifically, sure. Otherwise I'd argue that they get it.
But "Flamer" also has a definition in the BRB and Baleflamer isn't in it.
Are Tau fusion weapons there under melta? And how do they interact with, say, ceramite plating? They have the melta rule right? (Honest question I'm nowhere near a brb)
Yeah, as mentioned ceramite plating protects against the bonus provided by melta, whereas all Flamer weapons are template weapons, but not all template weapons are Flamers, and in true sloppy tradition GW have utterly failed to address which are which beyond the first five minutes of the new ed..
Yeah, as mentioned ceramite plating protects against the bonus provided by melta, whereas all Flamer weapons are template weapons, but not all template weapons are Flamers, and in true sloppy tradition GW have utterly failed to address which are which beyond the first five minutes of the new ed.. Squirrel!
Well, all Flamer Weapons in the BRB are templates. Several 7th Ed. 'dexes have classified other weapons as flamer-type (Ork come to mind), one of which is a small blast and the other a large blast.
But yes, Baleflamers are NOT flamers as defined by the game. Absurd? Yes. When GW finally get's around to updating CSMs (ie. making them even worse and less flavourable. I had to, sorry ) they most likely will be.
Yeah, as mentioned ceramite plating protects against the bonus provided by melta, whereas all Flamer weapons are template weapons, but not all template weapons are Flamers, and in true sloppy tradition GW have utterly failed to address which are which beyond the first five minutes of the new ed..
Squirrel!
Well, all Flamer Weapons in the BRB are templates. Several 7th Ed. 'dexes have classified other weapons as flamer-type (Ork come to mind), one of which is a small blast and the other a large blast.
But yes, Baleflamers are NOT flamers as defined by the game. Absurd? Yes. When GW finally get's around to updating CSMs (ie. making them even worse and less flavourable. I had to, sorry ) they most likely will be.
Mort wrote:
And someone else (not you, Red) complained that the marine dread is 'only' AV12, and will suffer from focus fire... isn't that what -anyone- with AV12 and a powerful fig has to worry about? That isn't limited to marine dreads.
Well, this one I can sort of get. AV 12 with weaker side/rear is absolutely awful for a non-skimmer unit and feels like a relic remaining from an age past not reflected in point costs with the Rhino being an exception. It is dirt cheap and easy to break. Nuking one for first blood is worthwhile. After that? Not so much.
AV 12 when you get cover/invo save? Fine. Otherwise one can make short work of it with S7.
Okay so in an 1850 list, SM armies can get actually TWENTY free tanks, correct? Even just ten free tanks is completely ridiculous. For one, every single SM player is going to use a 10-tank Razorback screen from now on, giving a cover save to the rest of their army. There aren't enough turns in the game to counter it.
WIth 10-20 free tanks they don't even need a shooting phase, they can just roll onto all the objectives and there's basically nothing anyone can do.
Welcome to the age of spam and cookie cutter armies. If you thought it was bad before, you had no idea.
But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens
Do they, though? Baleflamer is not a "Flamer Weapon" as defined in the BRB.
Why not? There is no "flamer" USR the way there's a melta USR. It also has flamer in the name and is a weapon specific to a codex. If the CT says FNP against flamer and heavy flamer specifically, sure. Otherwise I'd argue that they get it.
But "Flamer" also has a definition in the BRB and Baleflamer isn't in it.
yeah, it is likely the Salamanders are not resistent to the raw chaos that heldrakes spew forth.
Still it isnt like heldrakes are that popular these days and my bet it when CSM get a new codex, heldrakes are going to get nerfed further.
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mercury14 wrote: Okay so in an 1850 list, SM armies can get actually TWENTY free tanks, correct? Even just ten free tanks is completely ridiculous. For one, every single SM player is going to use a 10-tank Razorback screen from now on, giving a cover save to the rest of their army. There aren't enough turns in the game to counter it.
WIth 10-20 free tanks they don't even need a shooting phase, they can just roll onto all the objectives and there's basically nothing anyone can do.
Welcome to the age of spam and cookie cutter armies. If you thought it was bad before, you had no idea.
DE and Tau lost their cheap mass cary haywiregrenades....
mercury14 wrote: Okay so in an 1850 list, SM armies can get actually TWENTY free tanks, correct? Even just ten free tanks is completely ridiculous. For one, every single SM player is going to use a 10-tank Razorback screen from now on, giving a cover save to the rest of their army. There aren't enough turns in the game to counter it.
WIth 10-20 free tanks they don't even need a shooting phase, they can just roll onto all the objectives and there's basically nothing anyone can do.
Welcome to the age of spam and cookie cutter armies. If you thought it was bad before, you had no idea.
I have to confess, I'm a little stupefied that so many people are excited about fielding a full company. I'm kind of bummed that the way to make this very fluffy list work is to simply make a third of it free.
mercury14 wrote: Okay so in an 1850 list, SM armies can get actually TWENTY free tanks, correct? Even just ten free tanks is completely ridiculous. For one, every single SM player is going to use a 10-tank Razorback screen from now on, giving a cover save to the rest of their army. There aren't enough turns in the game to counter it.
WIth 10-20 free tanks they don't even need a shooting phase, they can just roll onto all the objectives and there's basically nothing anyone can do.
Welcome to the age of spam and cookie cutter armies. If you thought it was bad before, you had no idea.
Yeah, when you think ObSec you think Marines now. If the rumors are right and a company gives free vehicles and ObSec on everything, they're going to completely dominate any objective-based game. Just minimum 2x Assault, 2x Dev, and 6x Tac is 10 ObSec units with transports, and then add in Combat Squads. Yeah, kill all of that off of Objective Markers before the end of turn 5.
mercury14 wrote: Okay so in an 1850 list, SM armies can get actually TWENTY free tanks, correct? Even just ten free tanks is completely ridiculous. For one, every single SM player is going to use a 10-tank Razorback screen from now on, giving a cover save to the rest of their army. There aren't enough turns in the game to counter it.
WIth 10-20 free tanks they don't even need a shooting phase, they can just roll onto all the objectives and there's basically nothing anyone can do.
Welcome to the age of spam and cookie cutter armies. If you thought it was bad before, you had no idea.
I have to confess, I'm a little stupefied that so many people are excited about fielding a full company. I'm kind of bummed that the way to make this very fluffy list work is to simply make a third of it free.
Im not sure that people know what 10-20 free tanks looks like on the board.
mercury14 wrote: Okay so in an 1850 list, SM armies can get actually TWENTY free tanks, correct? Even just ten free tanks is completely ridiculous. For one, every single SM player is going to use a 10-tank Razorback screen from now on, giving a cover save to the rest of their army. There aren't enough turns in the game to counter it.
WIth 10-20 free tanks they don't even need a shooting phase, they can just roll onto all the objectives and there's basically nothing anyone can do.
Welcome to the age of spam and cookie cutter armies. If you thought it was bad before, you had no idea.
I have to confess, I'm a little stupefied that so many people are excited about fielding a full company. I'm kind of bummed that the way to make this very fluffy list work is to simply make a third of it free.
Im not sure that people know what 10-20 free tanks looks like on the board.
mercury14 wrote: Okay so in an 1850 list, SM armies can get actually TWENTY free tanks, correct? Even just ten free tanks is completely ridiculous. For one, every single SM player is going to use a 10-tank Razorback screen from now on, giving a cover save to the rest of their army. There aren't enough turns in the game to counter it.
WIth 10-20 free tanks they don't even need a shooting phase, they can just roll onto all the objectives and there's basically nothing anyone can do.
Welcome to the age of spam and cookie cutter armies. If you thought it was bad before, you had no idea.
I have to confess, I'm a little stupefied that so many people are excited about fielding a full company. I'm kind of bummed that the way to make this very fluffy list work is to simply make a third of it free.
Im not sure that people know what 10-20 free tanks looks like on the board.
It looks like somewhere between 350-1100 free points.
mercury14 wrote: Okay so in an 1850 list, SM armies can get actually TWENTY free tanks, correct? Even just ten free tanks is completely ridiculous. For one, every single SM player is going to use a 10-tank Razorback screen from now on, giving a cover save to the rest of their army. There aren't enough turns in the game to counter it.
WIth 10-20 free tanks they don't even need a shooting phase, they can just roll onto all the objectives and there's basically nothing anyone can do.
Welcome to the age of spam and cookie cutter armies. If you thought it was bad before, you had no idea.
I have to confess, I'm a little stupefied that so many people are excited about fielding a full company. I'm kind of bummed that the way to make this very fluffy list work is to simply make a third of it free.
Im not sure that people know what 10-20 free tanks looks like on the board.
It looks like somewhere between 350-1100 free points.
I mean physically on the map. Gridlocked parking lot.
I play Dark Eldar and Harlequins. What possible chance for a fun game is there here for either me or the SM player?
SickSix wrote: I'm not sure people realize how much 20 'free' tanks costs
Can't really start with that. If you start there, then you can't complain about Wraithknight or Wraithguard with D because those models cost quite a bit as well. Balance discussion is inherently divorced from modelling/hobby discussion.
with 10 free tanks in a 2-deep screen across the map, SM never have to worry about assault armies and their whole army gets a cover save. They could do that before but if cost them. Now it doesn't.
mercury14 wrote: with 10 free tanks in a 2-deep screen across the map, SM never have to worry about assault armies and their whole army gets a cover save. They could do that before but if cost them. Now it doesn't.
Well, it still costs them. You're sinking most of your points into units that, I think every marine player would agree, are suboptimal. I see this list being the ultimate version of Reece's ravenguard rhino rush list- it's not going to kill much, but it will be nearly impossible to wipe off the objectives. Maybe that's gamebreaking in the tournament sense, but as a casual player I would MUCH rather see that over an army that cannot be killed and can hurt anything I have (Necrons), or an army that is nearly as durable as me with six times the firepower (eldar).
That said, I really hate the buy-10-get-them-all-free move. Prior to this sort of thing, I didn't think 40k was pay-to-win at all....land speeder storms and wyches cost just as much as wave serpents and fire dragons, after all. But this move to reward the player for having as many big huge models as possible (making them squadrons, giving them squadron bonuses, making them FREE with formations) is the first time I've felt pretty bad.
Red Marine wrote: All these formations dont fix SMs main problem. MEQ & Rhino chasis tanks are way to easy to destroy. Every post about any tactic, formation or unit is always, "But how many MEQ can it kill?". The demi or full company farmation are built on 50-100 MEQ. Theres no forum on any site lacking in "How to kill MEQ" posts.
In most of the new formations the marines didnt get harder to kill. Vindis, whirlwinds, etc are no harder to pop either. Plus the loss of a single vehicle means the survivors lost their USRs. If a single necron warrior died & the decurion stopped working would you call that awesome? How about 1 windrider dies & they lose jink? Does that sound fair?
Space Marine players wanted better marines, not more. Theres multiple threads about "Should marines be more elite?", & the answer is always YES. Instead we've got IG marines. This way eldar & necron players feel like bad asses with cut & paste net lists, while SM remove piles of cheap MEQ. With these new formations we'll feel like we've still got a chance after removing a tank squadron & 20 marines.
Honestly I wouldn't even consider it if the entire detachment didn't have objective secured. However he said that they retain that rule which makes them very, very powerful. Who cares about scatter bikes when they have to kill 20+ separate OS units to be able to score a point and keep it.
Full company + stern guard + Pedro. Amazing.
Honestly considering just running all of the marines with basic bolters/stern guard bolters
Ally in some mechanicus for grav or haywire....good times.
The recent books have been playing to the fluff much better than before. As to people's comments if you read the fluff of marines against necrons and eldar, they die. They die a lot.
Becoming more elite within the current game mechanics would not solve their problems. Hey would still die at the same rate. Instead we are now able to play a much more tactical game with our marines, maneuvering, maximizing our special rules in list building. Most of e options remained. Ravenguard got a boost IMO for the lists they want to run. Couldn't assault after scouting anyway it just put them closer to eat more fire power, especially if going second. I will take improved survival anyday.
You & every other xenos player always miss the point about the idea of more elite marines. Just making marines better if you take giant buckets of them doesn't help. I dont want to play Imperial Guard in power armor with ork trukks. I want a smaller meaner army. Like the eldar have. Theres no fluff where 50 necrons cleanse a whole world. In 25 years of 40k ive never heard of 2 tyranids sweeping a fortification clean of the enemy. Not once. There is no other army who's table top performance is so diametrically different than their fluff.
Im tired of pulling out a huge SM army, then packing away a dozen models with a vehicle a turn. That's what every other army is supposed to do. The death of a single marine is supposed to be significant.There are a lot of SM players, but the purpose of my army shouldn't be tohave zero chance of winning so you feel good about your necrons & eldar.
You & every other xenos player always miss the point about the idea of more elite marines. Just making marines better if you take giant buckets of them doesn't help. I dont want to play Imperial Guard in power armor with ork trukks. I want a smaller meaner army. Like the eldar have. Theres no fluff where 50 necrons cleanse a whole world. In 25 years of 40k ive never heard of 2 tyranids sweeping a fortification clean of the enemy. Not once. There is no other army who's table top performance is so diametrically different than their fluff.
Im tired of pulling out a huge SM army, then packing away a dozen models with a vehicle a turn. That's what every other army is supposed to do. The death of a single marine is supposed to be significant.There are a lot of SM players, but the purpose of my army shouldn't be tohave zero chance of winning so you feel good about your necrons & eldar.
Talys wrote: Hmmm. Just noticed that Vulkan has FNP instead of Iron Resolve! That's a cool buff.
That is one thing that concerns me about these leaks.
Lysander is also written as FnP, yet picture “leaks” from the digital preview says Lysander have Iron Resolve.
So either they changed the Iron Resolve trait from the old thing to be FnP or parts of these rumors are wrong.
To be fair Iron Resolve sounds very FNP eeeeeee
Iron Resolve is the FNP trait. Both Pedro and Lysander have it, and they both have FNP listed as their trait.
You & every other xenos player always miss the point about the idea of more elite marines. Just making marines better if you take giant buckets of them doesn't help. I dont want to play Imperial Guard in power armor with ork trukks. I want a smaller meaner army. Like the eldar have. Theres no fluff where 50 necrons cleanse a whole world. In 25 years of 40k ive never heard of 2 tyranids sweeping a fortification clean of the enemy. Not once. There is no other army who's table top performance is so diametrically different than their fluff.
Im tired of pulling out a huge SM army, then packing away a dozen models with a vehicle a turn. That's what every other army is supposed to do. The death of a single marine is supposed to be significant.There are a lot of SM players, but the purpose of my army shouldn't be tohave zero chance of winning so you feel good about your necrons & eldar.
A thousand times this.
This new book IS stronger, that much is irrefutable. But the units that people wanted to be stronger remained unchanged, and instead they're basically only better because "lol formations" bonuses and a broken gun.
At least they took a minor first shot at trying to fix terminators, even if it was the least effort intensive path possible (drop the points some!) rather than going for a more creative fix.
You & every other xenos player always miss the point about the idea of more elite marines. Just making marines better if you take giant buckets of them doesn't help. I dont want to play Imperial Guard in power armor with ork trukks. I want a smaller meaner army. Like the eldar have. Theres no fluff where 50 necrons cleanse a whole world. In 25 years of 40k ive never heard of 2 tyranids sweeping a fortification clean of the enemy. Not once. There is no other army who's table top performance is so diametrically different than their fluff.
Im tired of pulling out a huge SM army, then packing away a dozen models with a vehicle a turn. That's what every other army is supposed to do. The death of a single marine is supposed to be significant.There are a lot of SM players, but the purpose of my army shouldn't be tohave zero chance of winning so you feel good about your necrons & eldar.
I don't really get this logic. The fluff is not the crunch. It's been that way for years now.
"Imperial Guard in power armor"? Please. Don't resort to hyperbole because a single squad of marines isn't able to solo an entire army like in the books. That's just not the way the game works, and if you're expecting it to, then you apparently haven't been paying attention to the game for a long time.
Marines are what the game is based around. They are the midpoint around which elite and horde armies/units balance themselves. The marine will never have the statline of a Hive Tyrant while being as numerous as Orks, but that's ok because that's what they're built to do. If that doesn't appeal to you... I dunno? You can look up the rules for Movie Marines on 1d4chan, where a Marine is T6 W2 3+/4++ for 100 points a pop and play with that. But that's not what 40k is, and will never be.
fidel wrote: Also in case no one knew this - confirmed Whites Scars no longer have hit and run, as well as no bike formation in the book.... again....
I would put money on the fact that the Bike Formation is either going to be in a White Dwarf and usable by DA(for Ravenwing) as well as C:SM, or in the actual DA Codex, and be usable by both DA and C:SM. Never underestimate the ability of GW to pinch every penny they can out of you.
Accolade wrote: So I guess play-to-win is in full swing now, huh?
Isn't that the point of a competitive game?
That rather depends on whether you view lists as gaming or metagaming - for me it is the latter. I play to win once we put models down on the tabletop, using these new horrors seems rather cheap to me, like an international sports team clawing in better players from other countries by changing the rules such that someone who's third cousin's aunt twice removed was of that country qualifies them for citizenship. We all know why GW is putting out these "buy 1, get 10 FREE!" formations and detachments, it's so that people will buy a lot more models than they planned to because they don't need to pay any points to use them on the table; cynically embracing their greed to give yourself a 25%+ points advantage isn't being "competitive", it's just unsportsmanlike.
You & every other xenos player always miss the point about the idea of more elite marines. Just making marines better if you take giant buckets of them doesn't help. I dont want to play Imperial Guard in power armor with ork trukks. I want a smaller meaner army. Like the eldar have. Theres no fluff where 50 necrons cleanse a whole world. In 25 years of 40k ive never heard of 2 tyranids sweeping a fortification clean of the enemy. Not once. There is no other army who's table top performance is so diametrically different than their fluff.
Im tired of pulling out a huge SM army, then packing away a dozen models with a vehicle a turn. That's what every other army is supposed to do. The death of a single marine is supposed to be significant.There are a lot of SM players, but the purpose of my army shouldn't be tohave zero chance of winning so you feel good about your necrons & eldar.
I don't really get this logic. The fluff is not the crunch. It's been that way for years now.
"Imperial Guard in power armor"? Please. Don't resort to hyperbole because a single squad of marines isn't able to solo an entire army like in the books. That's just not the way the game works, and if you're expecting it to, then you apparently haven't been paying attention to the game for a long time.
Marines are what the game is based around. They are the midpoint around which elite and horde armies/units balance themselves. The marine will never have the statline of a Hive Tyrant while being as numerous as Orks, but that's ok because that's what they're built to do. If that doesn't appeal to you... I dunno? You can look up the rules for Movie Marines on 1d4chan, where a Marine is T6 W2 3+/4++ for 100 points a pop and play with that. But that's not what 40k is, and will never be.
Exalted. A thousand times this.
There are plenty of stories in the fluff where Space Marines lose as well. In Farsight Enclaves an entire Strike Force is wiped out when, having heard that his enemies preferred power armor, Farsight had his troops bring nothing but plasma weapons.
It reminds me of the people complaining that "Everything got better!" in the new Eldar codex. Everything in this codex got better too! You now have a reason to take METAL BOXES over drop pods! It's even tied to the lore, with formations mimicking the tactics from the Codex Astartes and Chapter Tactics playing into how each chapter prefers to fight.
Marines are the baseline by which other armies are measured. Even looking at Xenos and Chaos armies, you can see what Space Marine units influenced them.
Has anyone been looking at the whole picture? Space Marines have been made significantly more powerful in this new book. Maybe not to the level of Eldar, and to a lesser extent Necrons and Mechanicus, but that ties into having to balance those armies against everyone else. Anyone who was expecting that level of power was just wishlisting and destined for disappointment.
I for one look forward to playing against new new Space Marine codex. I'll just have to make sure that there's enough terrain on the board, including at least one piece of impassible terrain, and that setup is done before deployment.
I'll have you parking lot make so many dangerous terrain checks, you'll concede out of sheer frustration! (And being immobilized )
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Las wrote: I'm starting to really dislike formations. They're just kind of boring.
I find them an excellent means of adapting the lore into the tabletop. 7th edition is formation edition. Formations are the future, so get used to them.
Accolade wrote: So I guess play-to-win is in full swing now, huh?
Isn't that the point of a competitive game?
That rather depends on whether you view lists as gaming or metagaming - for me it is the latter. I play to win once we put models down on the tabletop, using these new horrors seems rather cheap to me, like an international sports team clawing in better players from other countries by changing the rules such that someone who's third cousin's aunt twice removed was of that country qualifies them for citizenship. We all know why GW is putting out these "buy 1, get 10 FREE!" formations and detachments, it's so that people will buy a lot more models than they planned to because they don't need to pay any points to use them on the table; cynically embracing their greed to give yourself a 25%+ points advantage isn't being "competitive", it's just unsportsmanlike.
How is this functionally different to taking advantage of whichever new toy has the best return on points other than that it's easier for older collectors to put it together and more restrictive than something being good on its own?
Las wrote: I'm starting to really dislike formations. They're just kind of boring.
I haven't liked them since they first showed up. Mainly because GW is terribad at making them. We get junk like "3 units of BA terminators that can RUN and SHOOT the turn they enter play!!!" right beside a bunch that are a hodgepodge of tacticals alongside other foot marines that get random junk like stubborn, and finally you flip to one of the ridiculous pages like "these already good shooting units get tank hunter for free, have preferred enemy against several popular armies, and they only drawback is that they are a little better in melee against you, which should never come up" or the exceptionally lazy "you must take these things, but have ALL THE FREE POINTS."
Either fortunately or unfortunately, the ITC doesn't allow redundant detachments, so no doubling down on full companies there for 20 free razorbacks. 10 is still pretty stout though. It's a shame most of the auxiliaries kinda suck. The librarius could be interesting.
I think what we'll probably see is an iron hands gladius full company with razors, with some form of centstar or dual centstars mixed in from another detachment/faction to get stuff done.
Accolade wrote: So I guess play-to-win is in full swing now, huh?
Isn't that the point of a competitive game?
That rather depends on whether you view lists as gaming or metagaming - for me it is the latter. I play to win once we put models down on the tabletop, using these new horrors seems rather cheap to me, like an international sports team clawing in better players from other countries by changing the rules such that someone who's third cousin's aunt twice removed was of that country qualifies them for citizenship. We all know why GW is putting out these "buy 1, get 10 FREE!" formations and detachments, it's so that people will buy a lot more models than they planned to because they don't need to pay any points to use them on the table; cynically embracing their greed to give yourself a 25%+ points advantage isn't being "competitive", it's just unsportsmanlike.
How is this functionally different to taking advantage of whichever new toy has the best return on points other than that it's easier for older collectors to put it together and more restrictive than something being good on its own?
I love how people talk about it as if the formation is "free". Free implies that all points are created equal. They are not. It is free points wise, however in return you are giving up efficiency in other areas. You are devoting over half your points to units that dont really....do much other than exist. While that is helpful for winning the mission it doesnt kill your opponents as well as cripples you in KP missions. It makes it very restrictive for bring in other forces as well as removes options like FA drop pods as a option.
They could not just reduce the prices of everything to bring it in line with these units would comparitively be worth, nor can they really change Iconic unit costs since they are in a variety of books. People would just min/max spam them. So instead we get a semblence of points balance by giving "free" options in return for making you buy specific units.
So yes it is points free but you are giving up lots of flexibility and efficiency to do it.
Here is the thing, even from the rumors I can tell that it is not the optimal build. There are other builds and a large variety of options available in this book that are better than the "free" transports.
Have we seen anything about dev cents? Changes in points or shift from twin linked to two weapons? Look forward to hearing about them since I would like to run my las cents again, but they are just not worth the points with one twin linked shot..
You & every other xenos player always miss the point about the idea of more elite marines. Just making marines better if you take giant buckets of them doesn't help. I dont want to play Imperial Guard in power armor with ork trukks. I want a smaller meaner army. Like the eldar have. Theres no fluff where 50 necrons cleanse a whole world. In 25 years of 40k ive never heard of 2 tyranids sweeping a fortification clean of the enemy. Not once. There is no other army who's table top performance is so diametrically different than their fluff.
Im tired of pulling out a huge SM army, then packing away a dozen models with a vehicle a turn. That's what every other army is supposed to do. The death of a single marine is supposed to be significant.There are a lot of SM players, but the purpose of my army shouldn't be tohave zero chance of winning so you feel good about your necrons & eldar.
A thousand times this.
This new book IS stronger, that much is irrefutable. But the units that people wanted to be stronger remained unchanged, and instead they're basically only better because "lol formations" bonuses and a broken gun.
At least they took a minor first shot at trying to fix terminators, even if it was the least effort intensive path possible (drop the points some!) rather than going for a more creative fix.
But why would GW want you to buy only a few models? The easier it is to remove them, the more you'll have to field (and purchase). COME ON
Yodhrin wrote: That rather depends on whether you view lists as gaming or metagaming - for me it is the latter. I play to win once we put models down on the tabletop, using these new horrors seems rather cheap to me, like an international sports team clawing in better players from other countries by changing the rules such that someone who's third cousin's aunt twice removed was of that country qualifies them for citizenship..
Except that it's not. This isn't the players changing the rules. It's the rules of the game changing.
Going back to when the decurion came out, my general opinion was: "crons are good, decurion makes them even better."
The gladius full company brings up a parallel. Basic marines suck, but free transports makes them better.
I'm just none too happy about a new dex going "hey, we didn't fix anything about the crappy units, but we made a formation that's kinda broken, so that should balance out right?"
Really at this rate we're all going to end up with guardsmen statlines for every race, and formations that change your statlines to what they should be. -_-
mercury14 wrote:So the old Space Marine codex was so very underpowered that GW needed to hand them 550 free points a match to make them on par with the rest of 40k?
If you took a 2 captains, 30 tactical marines, 10 devastators, and 10 assault marines -- an Adeptus Astartes Company -- yes. Using the 6e codex, a Space Marine Company of any chapter sucked balls. In 7e, it's a lot better, because taking that full company includes their vehicles.
In the 6e codex, if you took a specialized Space Marine battleforce and combined the best units from the codex with allies guaranteed to give you by far the most broken mechanic of the game (Invisibility), or spammed the very best unit in the codex (grav bikes), you had a pretty good chance against even the toughest enemies. Who, by the way, are taking the very best units in THEIR codex.
What formations and formation bonuses provide is a mechanism by which individual units of the very best models have to compete with groups of potentially inferior models. It's a superior way of list-building, because it discourages spamming the best unit, since the formation it self is generally not spammy.
Personally, I would much rather take or face the free razorbacks, the tacticals, assault, and devastators, plus another thousand points or so of upgrades, other stuff, and allies, than just the best units in the game. Likewise, I am happy that Eldar got lots of buffs on many units, because playing against wave serpents, you know, gets old. And in-before-someone-complains... Scatter bikes are WAY easier to deal with than Wave Serpent spam. Gimme the scatter bikes ANY day.
TheNewBlood wrote:Has anyone been looking at the whole picture? Space Marines have been made significantly more powerful in this new book. Maybe not to the level of Eldar, and to a lesser extent Necrons and Mechanicus, but that ties into having to balance those armies against everyone else. Anyone who was expecting that level of power was just wishlisting and destined for disappointment.
People are also ignoring the fact that Space Marines can Battle Brother other very good factions: Imperial Knights, Skitarii, and Grey Knights. It's all fine to say, "as a single faction..." However, Xenos players have very few battle brother choices, whether they like it or not! How would those Tau like to be Battle Brothers with a faction with big stompy titans, or a faction that has haywire on every freaking die roll? Be able to share psychic powers, transports, and so on? But, but, what if they had to ALLY to get that? Would they care?
Put on the other shoe -- how would you like the Tau or Orks or Tyranid to have that capability? Would you care that they had to ally in order to get it?
TheNewBlood wrote:Becoming more elite within the current game mechanics would not solve their problems. Hey would still die at the same rate. Instead we are now able to play a much more tactical game with our marines, maneuvering, maximizing our special rules in list building. Most of e options remained. Ravenguard got a boost IMO for the lists they want to run. Couldn't assault after scouting anyway it just put them closer to eat more fire power, especially if going second. I will take improved survival anyday.
Marines ARE tougher than Imperial Guard. They have a better statline, and ATSKNF is not a silly nothing of a special rule. The core "problem" -- if you want to call it that -- is that weapons have gotten better, and power armor isn't enough to protect you against weapons that far outstrip its protection.
Really, NOTHING is good enough to give you protection unless you get invulnerable saves, guaranteed cover, or invisibility. And none of those would b a good thing to give to a basic troop in the game. Even if you gave Space Marines 2+ armor, all you'd accomplish is more expensive marines that died to all the things with AP2 that they die to now. They only thing they'd win easily against is crappy MSU fire. Besides, just because a Space Marine is a super HUMAN doesn't mean it can walk up to a giant Eldar Titan, a C'Tan, or a Riptide and stab it in the foot, and go ha ha. And clearly, Space Marines in Power Armor are NOT the most powerful units that the Imperium, or even the Adeptus Astartes have. I mean, Terminators, Centurions, Sanguinary Guard, Dreadnoughts, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights...
If you want to get silly analyzing the fluff, the whole idea is ridiculous anyhow. There is no way 1,000 space marines can be as effective as 1,000,000,000 Imperial Guard (that's billion) -- and the ratio is probably worse than that (1 SM to 1 million IG). I mean, heck, they'd all have to be Imperial Knights in titan sized suits to warrant that kind of ratio.
niv-mizzet wrote: Going back to when the decurion came out, my general opinion was: "crons are good, decurion makes them even better."
The gladius full company brings up a parallel. Basic marines suck, but free transports makes them better.
I'm just none too happy about a new dex going "hey, we didn't fix anything about the crappy units, but we made a formation that's kinda broken, so that should balance out right?"
Really at this rate we're all going to end up with guardsmen statlines for every race, and formations that change your statlines to what they should be. -_-
I am halfway surprised that the free transports don't kick in with the Demi-Company. People would be buying Razorbacks and Drop Pods by the truckloads if it was.
niv-mizzet wrote: I'm just none too happy about a new dex going "hey, we didn't fix anything about the crappy units, but we made a formation that's kinda broken, so that should balance out right?
Not quite fair. Tacticals and Devastators get Grav Cannons, Terminators are 5 points less, and Dreadnoughts have 4 base attacks. That's SOMETHING. Not really enough on the Terminators. But especially the Grav Cannons have potential!
And the demi and full company formations, don't forget the reroll bonus.
Plus, there are going to be squads, that will make vehicles better. We just don't know what they are.
Either fortunately or unfortunately, the ITC doesn't allow redundant detachments, so no doubling down on full companies there for 20 free razorbacks. 10 is still pretty stout though. It's a shame most of the auxiliaries kinda suck. The librarius could be interesting.
Unless, of course, you can take 2 of the base formations in one Detachment, like with the Necron's Reclamation Legion or whatever (1+ in a Decurion Detachment)
casvalremdeikun wrote: I am halfway surprised that the free transports don't kick in with the Demi-Company. People would be buying Razorbacks and Drop Pods by the truckloads if it was.
Cynical Talys says: What space marine player doesn't already have razorbacks and drop pods? If you just made a demi-company kick it in, you'd only need 5 vehicles between the two, and who doesn't have that already?
Practical Talys says: Oh, well, all my space marine buddies have at least 5 drop pods (more like 7 or 9...). And most have at least a few razorbacks. This will get people to top up the razorback count to 10, and maybe the pods to 9!!
Either fortunately or unfortunately, the ITC doesn't allow redundant detachments, so no doubling down on full companies there for 20 free razorbacks. 10 is still pretty stout though. It's a shame most of the auxiliaries kinda suck. The librarius could be interesting.
Unless, of course, you can take 2 of the base formations in one Detachment, like with the Necron's Reclamation Legion or whatever (1+ in a Decurion Detachment)
...wait. You can do that in a single decurion? O.O I'm not near my buddy's necron book. If you can run multiple full companies and call it a single gladius detachment, then kinda-holy-carp. The one downside is fitting two full companies at 1850 while taking the (I'm assuming here) minimum 1 auxiliary.
Either fortunately or unfortunately, the ITC doesn't allow redundant detachments, so no doubling down on full companies there for 20 free razorbacks. 10 is still pretty stout though. It's a shame most of the auxiliaries kinda suck. The librarius could be interesting.
Unless, of course, you can take 2 of the base formations in one Detachment, like with the Necron's Reclamation Legion or whatever (1+ in a Decurion Detachment)
If you wanted an entirely Astartes force, I think you could be pretty scary if you allied in podspam melta Flesh Tearers (assault marines) to take care of the "tough stuff" and had a razorback gunline of lascannons supported by the marines in front. The pods effectively only cost 15 points anyhow, and leave behind more AV12 that opponent has to delete to keep them busy while you position your lascannons and engage little stuff with your tacticals.
Either fortunately or unfortunately, the ITC doesn't allow redundant detachments, so no doubling down on full companies there for 20 free razorbacks. 10 is still pretty stout though. It's a shame most of the auxiliaries kinda suck. The librarius could be interesting.
Unless, of course, you can take 2 of the base formations in one Detachment, like with the Necron's Reclamation Legion or whatever (1+ in a Decurion Detachment)
...wait. You can do that in a single decurion? O.O I'm not near my buddy's necron book. If you can run multiple full companies and call it a single gladius detachment, then kinda-holy-carp. The one downside is fitting two full companies at 1850 while taking the (I'm assuming here) minimum 1 auxiliary.
I dunno about just spamming razorbacks. I'd want my army to have some other stuff, too. An invisible deathstar, pods in the back with haywire or melta, thunderwolf cav, Imperial Knights, that kind of thing. Personally, I find varied forces much more effective than spammed battleforces, because it gives you options and flexibility; your opponent doesn't instantly know what you're going to do every turn before you make it. I mean, there's not much unpredictable you can do with 30 scatter laser jet bikes.
...wait. You can do that in a single decurion? O.O I'm not near my buddy's necron book. If you can run multiple full companies and call it a single gladius detachment, then kinda-holy-carp. The one downside is fitting two full companies at 1850 while taking the (I'm assuming here) minimum 1 auxiliary.
I'm pretty sure it leaked somewhere that the demi-company was the only requirement to a Gladius detachment.
Either fortunately or unfortunately, the ITC doesn't allow redundant detachments, so no doubling down on full companies there for 20 free razorbacks. 10 is still pretty stout though. It's a shame most of the auxiliaries kinda suck. The librarius could be interesting.
Unless, of course, you can take 2 of the base formations in one Detachment, like with the Necron's Reclamation Legion or whatever (1+ in a Decurion Detachment)
...wait. You can do that in a single decurion? O.O I'm not near my buddy's necron book. If you can run multiple full companies and call it a single gladius detachment, then kinda-holy-carp. The one downside is fitting two full companies at 1850 while taking the (I'm assuming here) minimum 1 auxiliary.
We're not entirely sure how the Gladius/Demi-Company/Full Company paradigm works. It would be... interesting if you could do a full Company as well as expanding the entire thing to a Gladius, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Red Marine wrote: . In 25 years of 40k ive never heard of 2 tyranids sweeping a fortification clean of the enemy. Not once. There is no other army who's table top performance is so diametrically different than their fluff.
They're called Lictors. And today they're still a far cry from their 2nd edition 'assassin' incarnation.
In 25 years you've never read one of the dozen or so bits of fiction involving a Lictor? Really?
mercury14 wrote:So the old Space Marine codex was so very underpowered that GW needed to hand them 550 free points a match to make them on par with the rest of 40k?
If you took a 2 captains, 30 tactical marines, 10 devastators, and 10 assault marines -- an Adeptus Astartes Company -- yes. Using the 6e codex, a Space Marine Company of any chapter sucked balls. In 7e, it's a lot better, because taking that full company includes their vehicles.
In the 6e codex, if you took a specialized Space Marine battleforce and combined the best units from the codex with allies guaranteed to give you by far the most broken mechanic of the game (Invisibility), or spammed the very best unit in the codex (grav bikes), you had a pretty good chance against even the toughest enemies. Who, by the way, are taking the very best units in THEIR codex.
What formations and formation bonuses provide is a mechanism by which individual units of the very best models have to compete with groups of potentially inferior models. It's a superior way of list-building, because it discourages spamming the best unit, since the formation it self is generally not spammy.
Personally, I would much rather take or face the free razorbacks, the tacticals, assault, and devastators, plus another thousand points or so of upgrades, other stuff, and allies, than just the best units in the game. Likewise, I am happy that Eldar got lots of buffs on many units, because playing against wave serpents, you know, gets old. And in-before-someone-complains... Scatter bikes are WAY easier to deal with than Wave Serpent spam. Gimme the scatter bikes ANY day.
TheNewBlood wrote:Has anyone been looking at the whole picture? Space Marines have been made significantly more powerful in this new book. Maybe not to the level of Eldar, and to a lesser extent Necrons and Mechanicus, but that ties into having to balance those armies against everyone else. Anyone who was expecting that level of power was just wishlisting and destined for disappointment.
People are also ignoring the fact that Space Marines can Battle Brother other very good factions: Imperial Knights, Skitarii, and Grey Knights. It's all fine to say, "as a single faction..." However, Xenos players have very few battle brother choices, whether they like it or not! How would those Tau like to be Battle Brothers with a faction with big stompy titans, or a faction that has haywire on every freaking die roll? Be able to share psychic powers, transports, and so on? But, but, what if they had to ALLY to get that? Would they care?
Put on the other shoe -- how would you like the Tau or Orks or Tyranid to have that capability? Would you care that they had to ally in order to get it?
TheNewBlood wrote:Becoming more elite within the current game mechanics would not solve their problems. Hey would still die at the same rate. Instead we are now able to play a much more tactical game with our marines, maneuvering, maximizing our special rules in list building. Most of e options remained. Ravenguard got a boost IMO for the lists they want to run. Couldn't assault after scouting anyway it just put them closer to eat more fire power, especially if going second. I will take improved survival anyday.
Marines ARE tougher than Imperial Guard. They have a better statline, and ATSKNF is not a silly nothing of a special rule. The core "problem" -- if you want to call it that -- is that weapons have gotten better, and power armor isn't enough to protect you against weapons that far outstrip its protection.
Really, NOTHING is good enough to give you protection unless you get invulnerable saves, guaranteed cover, or invisibility. And none of those would b a good thing to give to a basic troop in the game. Even if you gave Space Marines 2+ armor, all you'd accomplish is more expensive marines that died to all the things with AP2 that they die to now. They only thing they'd win easily against is crappy MSU fire. Besides, just because a Space Marine is a super HUMAN doesn't mean it can walk up to a giant Eldar Titan, a C'Tan, or a Riptide and stab it in the foot, and go ha ha. And clearly, Space Marines in Power Armor are NOT the most powerful units that the Imperium, or even the Adeptus Astartes have. I mean, Terminators, Centurions, Sanguinary Guard, Dreadnoughts, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights...
If you want to get silly analyzing the fluff, the whole idea is ridiculous anyhow. There is no way 1,000 space marines can be as effective as 1,000,000,000 Imperial Guard (that's billion) -- and the ratio is probably worse than that (1 SM to 1 million IG). I mean, heck, they'd all have to be Imperial Knights in titan sized suits to warrant that kind of ratio.
1. OR they could've fixed the core problem of those units. Just making vehicles free isn't fixing the problem when you want to do something like a CAD.
2. Except you completely miss the point about Eldar. Serpentspam isn't the issue. It's the level of balance. There's literally no point to any other troop choice than Scatterbikes. Admit it.
3. I shouldn't HAVE to ally with ANYTHING. Codices are supposed to be standalone forces. You're telling us that we need to buy other armies. That's not how it's supposed to work. Allies should compliment a force, not fix the glaring holes.
4. Nobody is asking for Marines to solo monstrous creatures. Quit the strawman and actually answer the complaints.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 1. OR they could've fixed the core problem of those units. Just making vehicles free isn't fixing the problem when you want to do something like a CAD. 2. Except you completely miss the point about Eldar. Serpentspam isn't the issue. It's the level of balance. There's literally no point to any other troop choice than Scatterbikes. Admit it. 3. I shouldn't HAVE to ally with ANYTHING. Codices are supposed to be standalone forces. You're telling us that we need to buy other armies. That's not how it's supposed to work. Allies should compliment a force, not fix the glaring holes. 4. Nobody is asking for Marines to solo monstrous creatures. Quit the strawman and actually answer the complaints.
1. As I and other people have stated, this would not help the plight of the basic space marine. In 40k there are vehicles that can crush them, big weapons that can vaporize them, and creatures that dwarf space marines in every way and can just squish them. Space marines are better-than-basic infantry, and no infantry is meant to survive the large machines of war.
2. I would say that Windriders are the best troop choice, but not necessarily scatter lasers as their weapon. What has that got to do with anything? They still either have the choice to die or jink.. And anyways, Eldar are millions of years more advanced than humans, so they get some nice bikes. It's not like you can win with just the nice bikes. And they're still way weaker and harder to play than Wave Serpents, in skill-less noob spam armies.
3. Well, look. You're buying 1850 points. So it's not like it's costing you more. And I'm not saying that you CAN'T play space marines by themselves; I'm saying if SM were as powerful as Eldar by themselves, with battle brothers, they'd be an unstoppable force. Which would be terrible. It's your choice whether you want to ally or not -- it's a fact that allies make Space Marines and Eldar more powerful; avail yourself of the option or not. It's part of the game.
4. It's not a straw man argument at all. Half the game can destroy anything without the types of saves that are associated with monstrous creatures, characters with special stuff, or psychic abilities. Terminators have great armor. Even invulnerable saves! Guess what, they still crumple like paper. To "fix" space marines in the sense of making every one of the 1000 of the chapter heroic, you would literally need to make them so powerful that they'd cost a hundred points a model. And then since Aspect Warriors are even MORE powerful, those would cost like, two hundred points a model. And what would be the point? Because ultimately, a Titan or a fortification going kaboom, still should kill a Space Marine with no effort.
You know, kinda like Green Beret charges Abrams, Abrams rolls over Green Beret, movie ends. It doesn't matter how genetically enhanced and awesome the Green Beret is, he was never meant to go charge the tank. That's why he and his other 4 buddies have their own (smaller) tank! Which now, they don't have to pay separately for. Yay. Or you know, you can just say screw the elite forces, and take your own tank. Or 3, and then go kaboom and leave a big crater. Yay again!
If Windriders are the best, Grav Bikers aren't that far behind. Being able to reliably deal with practically everything is a pretty nice boon. High Armor Save - Fire the Twin-linked Bolters on the bike, Low Armor Save - Fire your whatever many Grav shots at them. Paired with Ko'sarro Khan and the White Scars Chapter Tactics, you have scouting bikes with an easy-to-make Jink save (I can't remember if they will have a 3+ or a 4+), you can put these bikes right in range for the Grav or the bolters. Bolters may suck, but when they are twin-linked they actually aren't that bad. I should know, I was twin-linking every bolt weapon known to man with my Sentinels of Terra. I might actually run a Bike Squad instead of an Assault Squad if the Gladius Strike Force allows it. Gotta get me some Grav on the board (I have plenty of Melta and Plasma, no Grav so far).
casvalremdeikun wrote: If Windriders are the best, Grav Bikers aren't that far behind. Being able to reliably deal with practically everything is a pretty nice boon. High Armor Save - Fire the Twin-linked Bolters on the bike, Low Armor Save - Fire your whatever many Grav shots at them. Paired with Ko'sarro Khan and the White Scars Chapter Tactics, you have scouting bikes with an easy-to-make Jink save (I can't remember if they will have a 3+ or a 4+), you can put these bikes right in range for the Grav or the bolters. Bolters may suck, but when they are twin-linked they actually aren't that bad. I should know, I was twin-linking every bolt weapon known to man with my Sentinels of Terra. I might actually run a Bike Squad instead of an Assault Squad if the Gladius Strike Force allows it. Gotta get me some Grav on the board (I have plenty of Melta and Plasma, no Grav so far).
Yes indeed. Saying that Tacticals "need to be fixed" is not much different from saying that Gaurdians "need to be fixed". Relative to Bikes and Windriders, they are just not as good for a troop choice. For that matter, Dire Avengers, too. If you look at troops generally as a potential tax to getting better units, Bikes and Winders are not a tax at all, whereas DA, Guardians, Tactical Marines, and to a lesser extent, Scouts, are things that most people don't want except as a way of unlocking better stuff.
On the other hand, with the new Company, once you toss in a Razorback, the whole equation changes. A 5 man tactical with a Razorback -- now it's no longer a tax.
In a way, it's a clever fix. Not everyone will like it, for sure. A lot of people just won't want to paint the models. It's kind of MSU-ish, except not quite.
Yodhrin wrote: That rather depends on whether you view lists as gaming or metagaming - for me it is the latter. I play to win once we put models down on the tabletop...
So you put no thought into creating a list?
Making lists is part of the game. Has been since they started making army lists for us to use. To imply that it's 'meta-gaming' strikes me as naive.
Yodhrin wrote: That rather depends on whether you view lists as gaming or metagaming - for me it is the latter. I play to win once we put models down on the tabletop...
So you put no thought into creating a list?
Making lists is part of the game. Has been since they started making army lists for us to use. To imply that it's 'meta-gaming' strikes me as naive.
I could be wrong, but if Yodrin is like me, the "meta-game" is making lists that you never play (some, never model). I only have like, 10,000 of those.
casvalremdeikun wrote: If Windriders are the best, Grav Bikers aren't that far behind. Being able to reliably deal with practically everything is a pretty nice boon. High Armor Save - Fire the Twin-linked Bolters on the bike, Low Armor Save - Fire your whatever many Grav shots at them. Paired with Ko'sarro Khan and the White Scars Chapter Tactics, you have scouting bikes with an easy-to-make Jink save (I can't remember if they will have a 3+ or a 4+), you can put these bikes right in range for the Grav or the bolters. Bolters may suck, but when they are twin-linked they actually aren't that bad. I should know, I was twin-linking every bolt weapon known to man with my Sentinels of Terra. I might actually run a Bike Squad instead of an Assault Squad if the Gladius Strike Force allows it. Gotta get me some Grav on the board (I have plenty of Melta and Plasma, no Grav so far).
Yes indeed. Saying that Tacticals "need to be fixed" is not much different from saying that Gaurdians "need to be fixed". Relative to Bikes and Windriders, they are just not as good for a troop choice. For that matter, Dire Avengers, too. If you look at troops generally as a potential tax to getting better units, Bikes and Winders are not a tax at all, whereas DA, Guardians, Tactical Marines, and to a lesser extent, Scouts, are things that most people don't want except as a way of unlocking better stuff.
On the other hand, with the new Company, once you toss in a Razorback, the whole equation changes. A 5 man tactical with a Razorback -- now it's no longer a tax.
In a way, it's a clever fix. Not everyone will like it, for sure. A lot of people just won't want to paint the models. It's kind of MSU-ish, except not quite.
The problem with the new Battle Company and all of its free transports is that it doesn't leave enough room for all of my fun Crimson Fist toys, like my Sternguard squad(now with Bolter Drill on Sternguard Ammo and ObSec because of Pedro Kantor) and Pedro Kantor (now with FNP and hopefully a better armor save!).
Talys wrote: @casvalremdeikun -- yeah, I understand what you mean. There are tough choices indeed!
I'm happy to try them out though.
I plan to run the majority of a Demi-Company (may or may not use the Command Squad or the Dreadnought). It seems like a character can't be substituted for the Captain or Chaplain, which sucks. In my case, technically Pedro is the First Company Captain in addition to being the Chapter Master. There is no real way to run him alongside the Demi-Company as of right now. And that blows since he just got frickin' FNP so running him alongside his Honour Guard(who have better armor because reasons) isn't suicide. I will figure something out, I guess.
Talys wrote: @casvalremdeikun -- yeah, I understand what you mean. There are tough choices indeed!
I'm happy to try them out though.
I plan to run the majority of a Demi-Company (may or may not use the Command Squad or the Dreadnought). It seems like a character can't be substituted for the Captain or Chaplain, which sucks. In my case, technically Pedro is the First Company Captain in addition to being the Chapter Master. There is no real way to run him alongside the Demi-Company as of right now. And that blows since he just got frickin' FNP so running him alongside his Honour Guard(who have better armor because reasons) isn't suicide. I will figure something out, I guess.
I think the guy said that you can substitute any of the characters into the demi-company or any of the formations as long as it fits(might not be right on that one)
While i am all hungry for leaks and spoilers, i find it quite pointless dedicating 4-5 pages arguing about the power of a formation we have not yet to exactly read. For all i know, it might give only free Rhinos or Drop Pods or make us pay the cost for each Razorback upgrade other than the HB.
Since we are talking 10+ razors, 55 pts razors is a very different beast than 75 pts razors
spartiatis wrote: While i am all hungry for leaks and spoilers, i find it quite pointless dedicating 4-5 pages arguing about the power of a formation we have not yet to exactly read. For all i know, it might give only free Rhinos or Drop Pods or make us pay the cost for each Razorback upgrade other than the HB.
Since we are talking 10+ razors, 55 pts razors is a very different beast than 75 pts razors
It's already confirmed hat you have to pay for all upgrades.
I just can't wait to see if we can swap out named characters in the formations or not. Would be nice if we could.
Talys wrote: @casvalremdeikun -- yeah, I understand what you mean. There are tough choices indeed!
I'm happy to try them out though.
I plan to run the majority of a Demi-Company (may or may not use the Command Squad or the Dreadnought). It seems like a character can't be substituted for the Captain or Chaplain, which sucks. In my case, technically Pedro is the First Company Captain in addition to being the Chapter Master. There is no real way to run him alongside the Demi-Company as of right now. And that blows since he just got frickin' FNP so running him alongside his Honour Guard(who have better armor because reasons) isn't suicide. I will figure something out, I guess.
I think the guy said that you can substitute any of the characters into the demi-company or any of the formations as long as it fits(might not be right on that one)
I have a devious grin on my face(think the Grinch) assuming this is true. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my Captain (that little gak has been through so much and has NEVER been a casualty), but Pedro is just so damn cool (even better with FNP). I really like his model too (need to rebase it though). If it is not the case, I probably won't be running poor Pedro since I love the ObSec Demi-Company. I guess I will have to see how flexible the Demi-Company really is.
I just realized I forgot to ask the Warseer posters if Dorn's Arrow counts as a Bolt weapon.
EDIT: I just thought of something. If CM is an upgrade to Captain, theoretically a CM character could be used in place of a Captain if a Captain character or CM non-character could. LAWYER'D!
spartiatis wrote: While i am all hungry for leaks and spoilers, i find it quite pointless dedicating 4-5 pages arguing about the power of a formation we have not yet to exactly read. For all i know, it might give only free Rhinos or Drop Pods or make us pay the cost for each Razorback upgrade other than the HB.
Since we are talking 10+ razors, 55 pts razors is a very different beast than 75 pts razors
It's already confirmed hat you have to pay for all upgrades.
I just can't wait to see if we can swap out named characters in the formations or not. Would be nice if we could.
Yeah!! Being able to put named characters into the Chapter Master makes sense and is cool.
The confirmation of not including upgrades -- I'm not sure where it came from, though I read it here, I think, from someone that just reported it. Still, 550 points of free stuff is a lot! 750 would be more, yes Aren't we greedy? hahaha.
I could see myself sacrificing a few Razorbacks for Bikes / Dev Centurions. Even if I took away both Assault Squads and a Devastator Squad, that's still 385 in free transports...
mercury14 wrote: Okay so in an 1850 list, SM armies can get actually TWENTY free tanks, correct? Even just ten free tanks is completely ridiculous. For one, every single SM player is going to use a 10-tank Razorback screen from now on, giving a cover save to the rest of their army. There aren't enough turns in the game to counter it.
WIth 10-20 free tanks they don't even need a shooting phase, they can just roll onto all the objectives and there's basically nothing anyone can do.
Welcome to the age of spam and cookie cutter armies. If you thought it was bad before, you had no idea.
A prediction. You will almost never see this formation on the table.
Why ? Your average shop/club player isn't going to be able to put 10+ hulls down on the table.
Your not going to see if from tournament players either who would put down the money for this. Why ? Eldar Jetbikes/Warp Spiders shoot Razorbacks off the table, and in return the Space Marine formation doesn't put out that much damage.
Crazyterran wrote: I could see myself sacrificing a few Razorbacks for Bikes / Dev Centurions. Even if I took away both Assault Squads and a Devastator Squad, that's still 385 in free transports...
Yeah, the way to look at it though, is how many points you need for your army.
In the context of the bikes, for example, the assault squad is 70 points; the razorback is worth 55. So, for 90 points, you get 5 assault marines plus a lascannon razorback. You just can't get that mileage out of the equivalent points in bikes. So, if you NEED the bikes, yeah, of course, dump the ASM, but otherwise...
*puts on thinking cap* Maybe if we squeeze reaalllyyy tight, the bikes will fit into the razorback?
The devastator squad could be dicier, partly because we're not sure what the default weapons are -- with heavy bolters, at base cost, they might be ok to leave them as is, or it might be better to dump them and put the points into the dev cent. At least we have choices right?
This is another way to look at it -- since bikes are definitely not a tax and ONE dev cents squad is definitely useful, if you can take a named character in place of the captain, your real Gladius Maximus Tax is...
Crazyterran wrote: And it's not like those 30 tactical marines are useless, either.
Though they are close A UM or IF Demi/Battle Company is going to be pretty mean though, with the buffs to the Tactical Marines(REROLL ALL THE ONES!), and it gets even better if you can take Marneus Calgar as the Demi/Battle Company Champion.
Crazyterran wrote: And it's not like those 30 tactical marines are useless, either.
Though they are close A UM or IF Demi/Battle Company is going to be pretty mean though, with the buffs to the Tactical Marines(REROLL ALL THE ONES!), and it gets even better if you can take Marneus Calgar as the Demi/Battle Company Champion.
Even better, actually. All models in the detachment get reroll 1's, but tacticals get to reroll all failed hits! Since you can do that twice, it's gold with the Dev Cents.
Remember, those tactical squads also have grenades, too, and with rerolls to hit, it's something. With extra points at the end, you can throw in some special weapons too, and they are at least a threat.
I don't know if this was known yet, but on the GW online store, all of the Space Marine factions have been relabeled as Adeptus Astartes: X (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Marines, and Space Wolves). Hints at SW and GK getting a Codex Trademark Proofing Update?
The only thing i wonder is if i have enough transports...
I have about 6 drop pods and a few rhinos, but the number i need now i don't have.
And that is probably exactly what GW is going for: selling transports again. The last edition was bad for transports, the edition one before that most IG never came out of theirs.
Now Space Marine transports are back again.
ORicK wrote: The only thing i wonder is if i have enough transports...
I have about 6 drop pods and a few rhinos, but the number i need now i don't have.
And that is probably exactly what GW is going for: selling transports again. The last edition was bad for transports, the edition one before that most IG never came out of theirs.
Now Space Marine transports are back again.
That was the point I made a page or so ago. They know everyone has Tacticals and FA/HS coming out their butts, but not necessarily the transports needed to field the Battle Company with free transports. So now they are looking at banking a boatload of money from people that want to get the free transports. And a parking lot of Rhinobacks or drop pods is going to be pretty fun to throw down.
A parking lot!
A good idea for a "40k edition contemporary" scenery piece!
I too have loads of infantry.
On 28mm scale i find tanks (including transports) out of place. So i usually play infantry themed armies with the exception of the fact that i have some drop pods (they fit 28mm scale warfare).
And allthough many of these armies are Apocalypse size nowadays (i collect and play since 1990), i still have very few transports and vehicles.
And i am not going to go buy loads of them now either...
ORicK wrote: A parking lot!
A good idea for a "40k edition contemporary" scenery piece!
I too have loads of infantry.
On 28mm scale i find tanks (including transports) out of place. So i usually play infantry themed armies with the exception of the fact that i have some drop pods (they fit 28mm scale warfare).
And allthough many of these armies are Apocalypse size nowadays (i collect and play since 1990), i still have very few transports and vehicles.
And i am not going to go buy loads of them now either...
Me neither. So far the only "guaranteed" purchases for me are a box of Devs (to complete my ML and LC squads), 5 or so bikes (for a squad of Grav Bikes), and a box of Tacticals+Razorback(for another Combi-Melta/Meltagun squad). And the book, of course. Gonna have to put in a few hours of overtime to pay for it, but oh well.
