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 Nevelon wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If the Gladius Strike Force is a Detachment, isn't it possible for you to add other stuff on that isn't a formation or whatnot? Like add in a unit of Sternguard or a Land Raider?

Depends what options it allows. You can always take both it and a CAD. I know the Eldar one had some ala carte options in addition to the sub-formations.

As long as I can put Pedro, an Honour Guard, and some Sternguard in, I will be happy.

Nocturnus wrote:
Judging by what others are saying, I think you are in the minority. For competitive play, Marines are largely in the same boat they are currently in. Their units are merely okay. They failed to address the problem units( Termies, Dreads) and added grav to everything else. Whoopie-frickin-doo. Eldar are going to smash this army to pieces. And talk about laziness. They couldn't even be bothered to update or add new relics? Formations are okay-ish but nothing outstanding. And at 1500 points, you'll struggle to take advantage of them. Very disappointed by this release.

I don't get the "buff entitlement" mentality. Coming from a guy who mostly plays space Marines curtently, but has a huge collection of other stuff:

- Space Marines are not a broken faction
- They win plenty of tournaments
- They are a very popular and versatile faction
- They are IoM and BB with other factions for awesome combos
- After this codex, they will be stronger, not weaker

If GW did nothing except give SM FA fro pods, that would be a big buff. But no, there's plenty of cool stuff. Why should every formation be so good that it will curb stomp most of the other factions best lists?

After CWE codex, SM have been doing fine. Now, they will do better.


Oh yeah, and how are dreadnoughts getting 4 attacks in the statline not a huge buff?!

 Talys wrote:


Oh yeah, and how are dreadnoughts getting 4 attacks in the statline not a huge buff?!

It's a big buff, but not a consequential one IMO.

Did White Scars lose Hit and Run?

That's a huge blow if so

Personally I am not as much worried that the codex will be bad as much as I am concerned that it will be really dull.

Space Marines are somewhat of a tertiary army for me right now, and if the rumours prove to be true they will likely stay that way.

I do not expect them to dumpster CWE, or be as good. But I do hope they are fun to play.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to be disappointed if the codex is just a reprint with a few lackluster formations that look like they were written up during a coffee break or two.

That's fair enoug, Ratflinger, but would it really be better if they could "dumpster Eldar" as you put it? I think that would be horrible.

Also, keep in mind that like it or not, 40k is a game of allies for some factions, and taken as a whole, IoM looks to be getting a pretty decent boost.

While I don't think dreadnoughts are going to now be the best unit ever, I think A4 makes them a lot better for people who want to field them, or to not be deadweight in a formation.

nice to see BT getting some buffs

what do you guys think of the Land Raider formation, worth it ?

The problem with dreds is AV 12 combined with low damage output. 4a at least helps fix half the problem.

6 attacks for charging Ironclaaaads!

But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens

Also, sallies laugh at heldrakes now. That rules so hard. Edit: ^ damn right

 Talys wrote:
That's fair enoug, Ratflinger, but would it really be better if they could "dumpster Eldar" as you put it? I think that would be horrible.

Also, keep in mind that like it or not, 40k is a game of allies for some factions, and taken as a whole, IoM looks to be getting a pretty decent boost.

While I don't think dreadnoughts are going to now be the best unit ever, I think A4 makes them a lot better for people who want to field them, or to not be deadweight in a formation.

No, it would not be better if they did dumpster CWE, or if they even were on par due to the ally system. Eldar are over the top strong.

I just think that the formations look dull and overly cumbersome, and I would be more than a little disappointed with the army construction benefiting some chapters immensely while doing very little for others.

All in all, it makes me doubt the accuracy of the leaks, especially when there are no scans or pictures. And like I have already stated, if the rumours indeed are true, I will be disappointed. Not because SM would have a hard time measuring against Eldar or whatever, but because my initial impressions from what I have read here is that the release appears to be incredibly low effort and lacking in cohesion.

 RedFox wrote:
nice to see BT getting some buffs

what do you guys think of the Land Raider formation, worth it ?

It’s got some nice perks. Unlike the tank squadrons, it’s just a formation, so you don’t all have to shoot at the same thing. I do think it’s a little crazy to dedicate ~750 points to 3 tanks. It’s a very R/P/S list. But if you are the kind of person tempted to roll a heavy armor spearhead, it looks OK. Ignoring some damage results will help keep you rolling, but you still loose HP, and can still blow up. So there are going to be a lot of hard counters out there.

I’m more of a TAC guy, so it’s not my cup of tea.

Thedecay wrote:
6 attacks for charging Ironclaaaads!

But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens

Do they, though? Baleflamer is not a "Flamer Weapon" as defined in the BRB.

rollawaythestone wrote:

Thedecay wrote:
6 attacks for charging Ironclaaaads!

But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens

Do they, though? Baleflamer is not a "Flamer Weapon" as defined in the BRB.

We will need to wait for 8th edition for that.

It really depends on the wording. if its just template then yeah they have protection. otherwise bale flamer and various chem and darkeldariee things and neuron weapons wont proc them.

 Nevelon wrote:

 RedFox wrote:
nice to see BT getting some buffs

what do you guys think of the Land Raider formation, worth it ?

It’s got some nice perks. Unlike the tank squadrons, it’s just a formation, so you don’t all have to shoot at the same thing. I do think it’s a little crazy to dedicate ~750 points to 3 tanks. It’s a very R/P/S list. But if you are the kind of person tempted to roll a heavy armor spearhead, it looks OK. Ignoring some damage results will help keep you rolling, but you still loose HP, and can still blow up. So there are going to be a lot of hard counters out there.

I’m more of a TAC guy, so it’s not my cup of tea.

If really wanted to take it to extremes, you can now do an all-armour SM list. Combine the LR formation with the Techmarine+Tank Squadrons one and you could get the 3 Raiders, and maybe 2 Vindis, 2 Whirlwinds and 2 Press into a 1850 list easily. Shove the Techmarines into the Raiders and bring the noise!

 Paradigm wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 RedFox wrote:
nice to see BT getting some buffs

what do you guys think of the Land Raider formation, worth it ?

It’s got some nice perks. Unlike the tank squadrons, it’s just a formation, so you don’t all have to shoot at the same thing. I do think it’s a little crazy to dedicate ~750 points to 3 tanks. It’s a very R/P/S list. But if you are the kind of person tempted to roll a heavy armor spearhead, it looks OK. Ignoring some damage results will help keep you rolling, but you still loose HP, and can still blow up. So there are going to be a lot of hard counters out there.

I’m more of a TAC guy, so it’s not my cup of tea.

If really wanted to take it to extremes, you can now do an all-armour SM list. Combine the LR formation with the Techmarine+Tank Squadrons one and you could get the 3 Raiders, and maybe 2 Vindis, 2 Whirlwinds and 2 Press into a 1850 list easily. Shove the Techmarines into the Raiders and bring the noise!

Assuming you can take the formations in a non-Gladius detachment, seeing as the Eldar/Necron ones require a War Host/Decurion respectively.

No they don't. The Necron/Eldar Formations can be taken separately, as will the SM ones (most likely, anyway).

The non-Formation choices are the only ones that can't (Wraithknights/C'Tan)

I'm curious to see the point cost of techmarines now that they have 2 wounds and that master of the forge are gone...

hope they still take no force organisation slots

I'll need those suckers to keep my LR alive!

Most formations can be taken on their own, even ones that are part of the Multiple-Formation-Detachments. There are exceptions, like the Auxiliary Eldar formations that can only come in a Warhost, but something like the Aspect Shrine or Wraith Host formation could be taken separately and/or in conjunction with other detachments. I'd guess most of these will be the same.

 Talys wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
Judging by what others are saying, I think you are in the minority. For competitive play, Marines are largely in the same boat they are currently in. Their units are merely okay. They failed to address the problem units( Termies, Dreads) and added grav to everything else. Whoopie-frickin-doo. Eldar are going to smash this army to pieces. And talk about laziness. They couldn't even be bothered to update or add new relics? Formations are okay-ish but nothing outstanding. And at 1500 points, you'll struggle to take advantage of them. Very disappointed by this release.

I don't get the "buff entitlement" mentality. Coming from a guy who mostly plays space Marines curtently, but has a huge collection of other stuff:

- Space Marines are not a broken faction
- They win plenty of tournaments
- They are a very popular and versatile faction
- They are IoM and BB with other factions for awesome combos
- After this codex, they will be stronger, not weaker

If GW did nothing except give SM FA fro pods, that would be a big buff. But no, there's plenty of cool stuff. Why should every formation be so good that it will curb stomp most of the other factions best lists?

After CWE codex, SM have been doing fine. Now, they will do better.


Oh yeah, and how are dreadnoughts getting 4 attacks in the statline not a huge buff?!

I don't have "buff entitlement". I was merely hoping for more than a simple cut and paste job of the current codex. Marines are not weak. They are mediocre. And whether people want to admit it or not, the Eldar codex changed the game. Seeing as it's a new book, the only way to balance things out would be to put the other books on a level playing field. Formations are fine for big games but how are you going to use them in 1000-1500pt games? As for dreads, they still die from any sort of concentrated fire. Who cares about 4 attacks when you're never going to get there to use them? But, I am not looking to argue. I think overall, GW could have made this book really interesting but instead opted for a half assed job. It really isn't much different than the current book.

I don't know if anyone has brought this up or not.... I play a pretty heavy forgeworld iron hands list with a master of the forge so that I can take more than 1 "relic of the armory" tank. What are the odds that this is now broken because there is no longer a master of the forge option in the codex?

I would hope that they will FAQ it to state just techmarine or remove the requirement.

rollawaythestone wrote:

Thedecay wrote:
6 attacks for charging Ironclaaaads!

But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens

Do they, though? Baleflamer is not a "Flamer Weapon" as defined in the BRB.

Why not? There is no "flamer" USR the way there's a melta USR. It also has flamer in the name and is a weapon specific to a codex. If the CT says FNP against flamer and heavy flamer specifically, sure. Otherwise I'd argue that they get it.

It is broken, they won't FAQ it, make do. Just like Blood Angels make do since the Reclusiarch is gone. House rule it, like every other broken rule in the game. Turn it into an HQ Techmarine or whatever the best equivalent becomes.

 Las wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:

Thedecay wrote:
6 attacks for charging Ironclaaaads!

But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens

Do they, though? Baleflamer is not a "Flamer Weapon" as defined in the BRB.

Why not? There is no "flamer" USR the way there's a melta USR. It also has flamer in the name and is a weapon specific to a codex. If the CT says FNP against flamer and heavy flamer specifically, sure. Otherwise I'd argue that they get it.

But "Flamer" also has a definition in the BRB and Baleflamer isn't in it.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Las wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:

Thedecay wrote:
6 attacks for charging Ironclaaaads!

But seriously, I can't even begin to explain how stoked I am that my Salamanders get a FnP vs heldrakes and doomsirens

Do they, though? Baleflamer is not a "Flamer Weapon" as defined in the BRB.

Why not? There is no "flamer" USR the way there's a melta USR. It also has flamer in the name and is a weapon specific to a codex. If the CT says FNP against flamer and heavy flamer specifically, sure. Otherwise I'd argue that they get it.

But "Flamer" also has a definition in the BRB and Baleflamer isn't in it.

Are Tau fusion weapons there under melta? And how do they interact with, say, ceramite plating? They have the melta rule right? (Honest question I'm nowhere near a brb)

Hmmm. Just noticed that Vulkan has FNP instead of Iron Resolve! That's a cool buff.

I even own the model (unpainted)... too bad I only have 1 metal painted space marine painted salamaders hahahaha.

@Nocturnus -- I wasn't specifically referring to you, by the way. I think Marines are incredibly strong, especially once you consider allies. I know a lot of people don't like to, but whatever, Battle Brothers is a core part of the game, and if Marines were equal to Eldar without allies, that would introduce way more problems once you factored in AdMech, Grey Knights, and Skitarii.

I'm curious as to whether you think Codex CWE is more than a simple cut and paste job out of the 6e Codex CWE. Really, I think the SM changes sound no more or less game-changing, other than that CWE changed spammable units from Wave Serpents to Windriders.

Putting aside power level, there are a whole wack-load of neat formations. Some of them might be powerful -- for instance, Strike Force Ultra could be a sleeper, but I'm not sure. With an extra attack, Terminators could be scary, with T1 teleport in. But I'm not sure til we try it... at least it gives me something to do with the shelves full of painted terminators I own. Some of them like the Librarians seem kind of neat.

It sounds like you can make a tank army too, which would be really cool, especially with Techmarine buffs and squadron bonuses (which we haven't seen yet, except that they're "really powerful" or some such).

And drop pods being in the base codex is a pretty huge change/buff, and all that grav is significant too.

Dunno, I'm pretty excited, man. Maybe not as powerful as D weapons and scatter lasers, but certainly a power level increase, and significant changes.

Also, my gut tells me that if you can take 5 man tac squads, a full gladius company will be competitive. Regarding sub-1000 point games, I can't say. The only sub-1850 that I play is Kill Team, and those are much smaller games with a whole different set of rules. Otherwise, the point levels we play at are 1850, 2000, 2500, 3000-4000, with 3000+ games reserved for games with a lot of titans and large, expensive models.

What I'm most curious about: Why is the Limited Edition 165 page, and the regular edition 200 page?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Las wrote:


Are Tau fusion weapons there under melta? And how do they interact with, say, ceramite plating? They have the melta rule right? (Honest question I'm nowhere near a brb)

I'm sure Tau fusion blaster is a Melta weapon.

Edit -- so, yeah, ceramite plating works against fusion blaster (as it protects against the extra damage from any weapon with the Melta SR).

Killermonkey wrote:
I don't know if anyone has brought this up or not.... I play a pretty heavy forgeworld iron hands list with a master of the forge so that I can take more than 1 "relic of the armory" tank. What are the odds that this is now broken because there is no longer a master of the forge option in the codex?

I would hope that they will FAQ it to state just techmarine or remove the requirement.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651749.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
It is broken, they won't FAQ it, make do. Just like Blood Angels make do since the Reclusiarch is gone. House rule it, like every other broken rule in the game. Turn it into an HQ Techmarine or whatever the best equivalent becomes.

House ruling has always been possible. His question is "if I am playing in a tournament, are they going to let me use my sicarian, raptor, and contemptor all at once" and the answer is no.

 Orock wrote:

Killermonkey wrote:
I don't know if anyone has brought this up or not.... I play a pretty heavy forgeworld iron hands list with a master of the forge so that I can take more than 1 "relic of the armory" tank. What are the odds that this is now broken because there is no longer a master of the forge option in the codex?

I would hope that they will FAQ it to state just techmarine or remove the requirement.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651749.page

Thanks for the link. That really sucks though! I'll just hope for an FAQ quickly so I can field my army haha

I actually like the extra shot rule for the Terminators when they strike in. Entirely helps one of the issues of damage input, even if it is only for a turn.

All these formations dont fix SMs main problem. MEQ & Rhino chasis tanks are way to easy to destroy. Every post about any tactic, formation or unit is always, "But how many MEQ can it kill?". The demi or full company farmation are built on 50-100 MEQ. Theres no forum on any site lacking in "How to kill MEQ" posts.

In most of the new formations the marines didnt get harder to kill. Vindis, whirlwinds, etc are no harder to pop either. Plus the loss of a single vehicle means the survivors lost their USRs. If a single necron warrior died & the decurion stopped working would you call that awesome? How about 1 windrider dies & they lose jink? Does that sound fair?

Space Marine players wanted better marines, not more. Theres multiple threads about "Should marines be more elite?", & the answer is always YES. Instead we've got IG marines. This way eldar & necron players feel like bad asses with cut & paste net lists, while SM remove piles of cheap MEQ. With these new formations we'll feel like we've still got a chance after removing a tank squadron & 20 marines.