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That first company formation does look awesome.

And kinda suspiciously like the old Dark Angels special sauce....

Looks like we know how they shafted DA this turn around!

Nevermind

Apparently you do pay for upgrades on the free transports, at least.

Per Iuchiban on Warseer
Chapter tactics are:

Ultramarinres:
- Can use one battle doctrine (Tac, Dev or Assault) once per game. Can use Tac once, Dev once, and Assault once.

White Scars
- Reroll when running
- Bikes get skilled rider, and +1S to HoW attacks

Imperial Fists
- Reroll "1" to hit when using bolt weapons (Bolt pistol, boltgun, heavy bolter, assault bolter and combi-weapons)
- Reroll to penétrate against buildings. Devs and Dev cents have tankhunter SR.

-Black Templars
- Crusade + Adamantium Will
- No Libs
- If a unit loses a model during any shooting phase, that unit gets Counterattack and Rage.

Iron Hands
- Characters and vehicles have the "It will not die" SR. Techmarines have +1 to repair
- Non, vehicle models get FnP (6+). If model already has FnP, gains +1 instead.

Salamanders
- FnP (4+) vs flamers. Reroll to wound and to penetrate when firing flamers.
- All characters improve one weapon to Mastercrafted

Raven Guard
- Shrouded during until turn 2. May add +1 to night fight roll
- May use jump packs both in Movement and Assault phase. Reroll to wound HoW attacks.

Some info about the Special Characters

Kor'sarro Khan
- Gives Scout to the Bikes in his army
- Give 1D3 victory points if he kills the enemy warlord in a challenge.
Warlord trait: 12" bubble of rerolling L tests

Vulkan
- No changes
Warlord trait: FnP

Shrike
- No changes
Warlord trait: Fear. Fear tests with 3D6

Lysander
- No changes
Warlord trait: FnP

Kantor
- Sternguard vets have objetive secured SR
- Oath of Rynn: same
Warlord trait: FnP

Helbrecht
- No changes
- Warlord and unit have Furious charge

Grimaldus
- Cenobyte servitors give FnP at 6"
- Units in same Detachment use warlord L

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Apparently you do pay for upgrades on the free transports, at least.

I'm not familiar with SM that well, what do Razorbacks come with stock?

Do we have any scans on that stuff? As is I am tempted to call humbug.

Only one devastator squad per demi company?
No way for Black Templars to use one of their few remaining little snow flakes?

Who knows? But I am not convinced.

Requizen wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Apparently you do pay for upgrades on the free transports, at least.

I'm not familiar with SM that well, what do Razorbacks come with stock?

Twin-linked heavy bolter. Not garbage, but the TL lascannons or LC/TL Plasmagun Turrets are well worth their points.

 Talys wrote:
@niv-mizzet -- isn't the whole point of the competitive game to win though? It hardly matters which force would win in 12 turns when the game ends in 6, and one side has more victory points. In the fluff, Imperium technology is far inferior to Necron and Eldar, so being able to win on points (and lose ultimately, in a table-or-nothing game) would be good design, I think.

That being said, you can still DraigoStar, bikespam and all the other fun stuff that you could before. I mean, it looks like you can even get a DraigoStar AND 10 free razorbacks...

No one ever said that the worst army in this game can't beat the best army in this game. The issue is that some armies have a downhill coasting ride during games, while other armies have an uphill struggle.
An additional consideration during the ITC events because of this is tiebreakers; when I run an MSU style list that just tries to play to the mission and do well, I end up winning either 6-5 or 5-1 or something similar.
On the flipside, an elder list doing well has consistent 11-0 or 11-1 wins.
This means that if both I and that Eldar guy end up at the end of the tournament having never played each other, but with the same w/l record, he outranks me by default. Some of them don't use the 1000 point system for win/loss ratio as well, which means at those you're at a SEVERE disadvantage, and you can be outranked by someone with a worse record if all their wins were shutouts. (I went to one where the wins were only 10 points, and while I did lose to 1st place eldar guy, even had I won, he would've still outranked me just because the rest of his record was all perfect wins, and mine were struggles.)

And eldar don't take 12 turns to win by tabling lol. Part of my MSU strategy currently is to null deploy with a couple pods and massive turn 2+ reserves and submit as little of my army as possible to damage for as long as possible just to stay alive, and then pray for t5 end, because I can still get tabled despite all that in t6, and definitely t7.

Raven Guard are sick. Sure losing scout sucks but a reliable 4+ cover save in the open and your assault squads are fast as feth? That's way better. Start in the enemy's face and go tear them up.

Ratflinger wrote:
Do we have any scans on that stuff? As is I am tempted to call humbug.

Only one devastator squad per demi company?
No way for Black Templars to use one of their few remaining little snow flakes?

Who knows? But I am not convinced.

This is the guy who has posted the last few leaks with very high accuracy. Details may be missing (Crusader Squads being used in Demicompany, for example), but for the most part he's been on target for Eldar and Mechanicus (and I think he did Necrons as well?).

Ratflinger wrote:
Do we have any scans on that stuff? As is I am tempted to call humbug.

Only one devastator squad per demi company?
No way for Black Templars to use one of their few remaining little snow flakes?

Considering there's only 2 Dev squads in a full Battle Company, and the formation is a Demi-Company, as in half a full company, this makes complete sense.

Templars don't fight in Battle Companies anyways. They're organised into Crusades which really have no formal structural organisation, just whatever the relevant Marshal wants, along with support assets that specific Crusade will likely require to attain it's goals.
Again, fluffy as hell that BT's don't get the benefits of the basic codex formations, considering they tend to wipe their arses with St.Girlyman's magazine!

Templars can still use all the other formations alongside their special snowflake Crusader Squads though.

 Las wrote:
Raven Guard are sick. Sure losing scout sucks but a reliable 4+ cover save in the open and your assault squads are fast as feth? That's way better. Start in the enemy's face and go tear them up.

Starting in the enemy's face isn't really possible without Scout though...

Requizen wrote:

 Las wrote:
Raven Guard are sick. Sure losing scout sucks but a reliable 4+ cover save in the open and your assault squads are fast as feth? That's way better. Start in the enemy's face and go tear them up.

Starting in the enemy's face isn't really possible without Scout though...

Start at the edge of your zone, move 12" assault charge with the reroll. You might get a lucky t1 charge if you catch your opponent off guard. Besides, it's not like you could charge t1 with scout. At least this way your dudes will be alive for a t2 charge. Hell, it makes podded ravens pretty kick ass, too

Experiment 626 wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
Do we have any scans on that stuff? As is I am tempted to call humbug.

Only one devastator squad per demi company?
No way for Black Templars to use one of their few remaining little snow flakes?

Considering there's only 2 Dev squads in a full Battle Company, and the formation is a Demi-Company, as in half a full company, this makes complete sense.

Templars don't fight in Battle Companies anyways. They're organised into Crusades which really have no formal structural organisation, just whatever the relevant Marshal wants, along with support assets that specific Crusade will likely require to attain it's goals.
Again, fluffy as hell that BT's don't get the benefits of the basic codex formations, considering they tend to wipe their arses with St.Girlyman's magazine!

Templars can still use all the other formations alongside their special snowflake Crusader Squads though.

Yeah, perhaps I worded it somewhat strangely. Sure, it makes sense, but it seems so damn inflexible which makes me doubt the validity of it all.

Look at necrons and Eldar, there are some flexibility in how you build your Reclamation Legion and the spehss elf equivalent.

The formations seem somewhat strange to me. If they prove true, I have to admit that I will be more than a little disappointed. The formation benefits do not seem awful, but it all seems dull with little room slowed for personal choice. Playing basically the same list over and over seems boring.

The Warseer poster being quoted says the RG chapter tactic doesn't apply the units that begin embarked... so that really limits the effectiveness of shrouding first turn.

I think it's a big net loss to exchange scour for the ability to get a couple of Assault Squads up the board quickly. In DoW deployment you'd need a 12" charge, and if you fail that unit is sitting in the open ready to die the next turn when shrouding expires.

So yeah:

Iron Hands CT for IWND on 12 Drop Pods and 2 Dreads for the lols and 6+ FNP on the 62 Marines

Two Demis for Full Company:

Captain - 90
Chaplain - 90
4 Tacs with Combi-Grav and Grav Can, Drop pod with Deathwind - 125/ea
2 Tacs with Combi-Grav and Grav Can, Drop pod with Locator Beacons - 125/ea
2 Assaults with 2 Flamers in Drop Pod with Deathwind - 90 ea
1 Devs with 4 GC and Rerolls in Drop Pod - 215
1 Devs with 4 GC and Rerolls in Drop Pod/Locator Beacon - 225
Dreadnought (MM/PF) in Drop Pod/Deathwind - 110
Dreadnought (MM/PF) in Drop Pod/Deathwind - 110
Aegis with Comm - 80

 Las wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Las wrote:
Raven Guard are sick. Sure losing scout sucks but a reliable 4+ cover save in the open and your assault squads are fast as feth? That's way better. Start in the enemy's face and go tear them up.

Starting in the enemy's face isn't really possible without Scout though...

Start at the edge of your zone, move 12" assault charge with the reroll. You might get a lucky t1 charge if you catch your opponent off guard. Besides, it's not like you could charge t1 with scout. At least this way your dudes will be alive for a t2 charge. Hell, it makes podded ravens pretty kick ass, too

Their Assault Marines could already do that, using JPs twice a turn. What has been traded is Scout for Shrouded, which seems like a big loss to me. It might be a little more thematic, but Scout was actually one of the best CTs for changing how a Chapter actually played, making them amazing in Rhinos and surprisingly quick even on foot. Getting into special/double tap/charge range a turn earlier is far better than a turn of boosted cover.


On another note, I may be the only person who thinks Termies are too cheap now! TDA with power fists for less than the round 200 feels wrong!

Ratflinger wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
Do we have any scans on that stuff? As is I am tempted to call humbug.

Only one devastator squad per demi company?
No way for Black Templars to use one of their few remaining little snow flakes?

Considering there's only 2 Dev squads in a full Battle Company, and the formation is a Demi-Company, as in half a full company, this makes complete sense.

Templars don't fight in Battle Companies anyways. They're organised into Crusades which really have no formal structural organisation, just whatever the relevant Marshal wants, along with support assets that specific Crusade will likely require to attain it's goals.
Again, fluffy as hell that BT's don't get the benefits of the basic codex formations, considering they tend to wipe their arses with St.Girlyman's magazine!

Templars can still use all the other formations alongside their special snowflake Crusader Squads though.

Yeah, perhaps I worded it somewhat strangely. Sure, it makes sense, but it seems so damn inflexible which makes me doubt the validity of it all.

Look at necrons and Eldar, there are some flexibility in how you build your Reclamation Legion and the spehss elf equivalent.

The formations seem somewhat strange to me. If they prove true, I have to admit that I will be more than a little disappointed. The formation benefits do not seem awful, but it all seems dull with little room slowed for personal choice. Playing basically the same list over and over seems boring.

Eldar sure, but not Necrons. The only variety in Reclamation Legion is which version of Immortals you take and if you take Lychguard or not. Every Reclamation Legion I've seen looks pretty much the same except for transports and if you take Zahndrekh over a regular Overlord.

What? You get to pick differing number of Warrior units, Immortal units, Lychguard, Monoliths and Tomb Blades.

"Lysander
- No changes
Warlord trait: FnP "



Thank god they got rid of the last one where you must kill something something in CC.

Ratflinger wrote:
What? You get to pick differing number of Warrior units, Immortal units, Lychguard, Monoliths and Tomb Blades.

Can you not take more than 1 Assault/Devestator unit?

 Desubot wrote:
"Lysander
- No changes
Warlord trait: FnP "



Thank god they got rid of the last one where you must kill something something in CC.

I am looking at Pedro Kantor with FNP and am very happy. But now I kinda want to get Lysander as well. If Lysander meets the criteria for a Captain for a Demi-Company, I will be running him and Pedro for some shenannigans.

0-1 Command Squad
0-1 Dread
Special, Heavy, and Sarge in each Tac squad
4 Heavy choices and a Sarge choice in each Dev squad
Dev Cents instead of Devestators
JP/no, 2 Specials, and Sarge in each ASM squad
Bikes or Assault Cents instead of ASM
*three* DT for each to pick from

That's a lot of options. Compare to the Guardian Defender warhost options?
-Heavy weapon and Warlock for each Guardian squad. Like a Tac, but no special weapons, and fewer Leader options by a lot
-Heavy weapons choices on the Vyper and WarWalker. Much like Dev heavy weapons.
-Farseer has options, but not nearly as much as a Captain.

Look at all the optionals in the SM formations. So many 0-N or A-B options. Did CWE have *any*?

We all know CWE is OP, but the SM company has *many many* more options. CWE Warhosts are actually quite restrictive, especially comparatively.

Am I reading this right? If the rumors are true, did Loyalist Terminators really go down to 35 ppm? You do know what this means, right?

Loyalist Termies are useable! Even the shooty ones! Praise the Emperor!

Sucks to be Blood Angels though. But then again, they are paying 5 points for Furious Charge Termies...

If the Gladius Strike Force is a Detachment, isn't it possible for you to add other stuff on that isn't a formation or whatnot? Like add in a unit of Sternguard or a Land Raider?

jakejackjake wrote:

Nocturnus wrote:
While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.

They buffed quite a bit. The few changes they made did make marines a gak load more powerful. Anyone who doesn't see it is nuts


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Wasn't one of the many bleets from Eldar Apologists that "all " new codexes would be like that one.

Have we now had several Codexes without any new units - just redone ones? Thats not a bad thing I guess. maybe no more Sleighs?

If any codex doesn't need new units its marines

You people are insane you can squadron predators and they get tank/monster hunter. You can get three big blasts with awesome anti troop stats and shred and pinning

There's a formation where every unit get a free dedicated transport... Marines are going to trump eldar

Judging by what others are saying, I think you are in the minority. For competitive play, Marines are largely in the same boat they are currently in. Their units are merely okay. They failed to address the problem units( Termies, Dreads) and added grav to everything else. Whoopie-frickin-doo. Eldar are going to smash this army to pieces. And talk about laziness. They couldn't even be bothered to update or add new relics? Formations are okay-ish but nothing outstanding. And at 1500 points, you'll struggle to take advantage of them. Very disappointed by this release.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Sucks to be Blood Angels though. But then again, they are paying 5 points for Furious Charge Termies...

Yeah, now if only they got Chapter Tactics...

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Am I reading this right? If the rumors are true, did Loyalist Terminators really go down to 35 ppm? You do know what this means, right?

Loyalist Termies are useable! Even the shooty ones! Praise the Emperor!

Sucks to be Blood Angels though. But then again, they are paying 5 points for Furious Charge Termies...

Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield went up 5 points though. So, all other Termies are cheaper, but the ones that most people used are the same price. Seems ok to me, imo.

You also have the problem with this demi company/company stuff, that some chapter tactics are more or less useless.

1-2 units of bikes for White Scars? Woo.

1-2 assault squads for Black Templars? Great.

1-2 devastator units for Imperial Fists? Splendid.

The add-on formations are huge and cumbersome.

And I do not really consider the fact that you get to pick wargear and weapons for marines to be some inherent customiseability in the formation thingy. That is just how marines work.

I do not know, but the whole thing looks like a hoax to me, and if it is not, that looks like such a low effort job for the most high profile codex.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If the Gladius Strike Force is a Detachment, isn't it possible for you to add other stuff on that isn't a formation or whatnot? Like add in a unit of Sternguard or a Land Raider?

Depends what options it allows. You can always take both it and a CAD. I know the Eldar one had some ala carte options in addition to the sub-formations.