New Adeptus Astartes - Page #46 Chaplain and Libby

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**Desubot**

Talys wrote:
Oh, yes, worth mentioning -- Dreadnoughts at 4 attacks, if the points haven't gone up -- makes them a lot more interesting.

Already enjoy my punchy ironclads so this is great.

Honestly not sure what people were expecting with the formations.

I think most of them are fine.

Still want confirmation on the Vindicator one

**Talys**

Desubot wrote:
Talys wrote:
Oh, yes, worth mentioning -- Dreadnoughts at 4 attacks, if the points haven't gone up -- makes them a lot more interesting.

Already enjoy my punchy ironclads so this is great.

Honestly not sure what people were expecting with the formations.

I think most of them are fine.

Still want confirmation on the Vindicator one

Yeah! I think the formations look pretty solid, without going overboard. So far, Full Company looks to be the craziest of the bunch.

I think there's a bunch of people hoping for something ridiculously overpowered, "3 devastator squads, get all 12 free grav cannons" or "500 point core, free army upgrades!" so that they have an easy "I win" formation, and there's a bunch of people hoping for something ridiculously overpowered so that they can complain that it's another broken rulebook, and then a bunch more people that were hoping for a reprint of 6e so that they can complain about that

Most of the formations look like they have some perk without being over the top; a lot we won't know until we have the actual text, and until it gets play-tested. But really, Space Marines were decent before, and it looks like some solid net gains, to me.

And yeah, I wanna see if I need to buy 2 more vindicators

**Exergy**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
Unlike eldar, where everything got turned up to 12, marines seem to be staying about the same as the last book.

SM are the thing that everything is compared to and the only ever remotely balanced book in the game. Everything is balanced against them, most of the time rather well but things break down away from that.

DE are alright against SM, SM are alright against DE
'nids are aright against SM, SM are alright against 'nids
IG are alright against SM, SM are alright against IG

What happens when DE square off against 'nids or IG? Horrors

**Nocturnus**

While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.

**Nevelon**

Desubot wrote:
Talys wrote:
Oh, yes, worth mentioning -- Dreadnoughts at 4 attacks, if the points haven't gone up -- makes them a lot more interesting.

Already enjoy my punchy ironclads so this is great.

Honestly not sure what people were expecting with the formations.

I think most of them are fine.

Still want confirmation on the Vindicator one

When the power scale of the eldar ones are along the lines of free weapon upgrades and +1WS/BS, there was the hope for some really nice boosts. Not that what we have is bad, but a lot of them have high buy in costs and kinda nice (but not OMG nice) benefits.

**Desubot**

Nevelon wrote:
Desubot wrote:
Talys wrote:
Oh, yes, worth mentioning -- Dreadnoughts at 4 attacks, if the points haven't gone up -- makes them a lot more interesting.

Already enjoy my punchy ironclads so this is great.

Honestly not sure what people were expecting with the formations.

I think most of them are fine.

Still want confirmation on the Vindicator one

When the power scale of the eldar ones are along the lines of free weapon upgrades and +1WS/BS, there was the hope for some really nice boosts. Not that what we have is bad, but a lot of them have high buy in costs and kinda nice (but not OMG nice) benefits.

When the power scale is tipped to the eldar side with a 1 ton weight. chucking another 1 ton weight on the other side is only just gona break the fethin scale. i REALLY wish we could just remove the 1 ton weight on the eldar side.

**Garrlor**

I'm interested to see what happens to the DA codex after this. Just bought my SW one, I think I need to somehow convince the wife that having 2 army's to play is a good thing....

Maybe if I put some money aside for an embroidery machine for her!

Being a new player to 40K (Well very old returning one, last time I played Termies had a 2d6 armour save lol), I am quite intrigued by a lot of the synergy in this codex.

**Nevelon**

Desubot wrote:

When the power scale is tipped to the eldar side with a 1 ton weight. chucking another 1 ton weight on the other side is only just gona break the fethin scale. i REALLY wish we could just remove the 1 ton weight on the eldar side.

I tend to agree with you. The other option would for everyone to adjust to the new level. Which looks to not be happening.

On the bright side, I can continue to play my marines without feeling dirty at the FLGS. The same can’t be said about my Eldar.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Dreads having 4 attacks means that Contemptors need to be updated as such! Sure it's more practical to have two Assault Cannons but Fists look SOOOO nice.

**Nightlord1987**

Yup. Now I'm still stuck in the fence as to play my Loyalists as a DA Successor, or an IH one....

I'm glad Tech marines got a bump. Definitely my favorite guy.

**Talys**

Nevelon wrote:
Desubot wrote:

When the power scale is tipped to the eldar side with a 1 ton weight. chucking another 1 ton weight on the other side is only just gona break the fethin scale. i REALLY wish we could just remove the 1 ton weight on the eldar side.

I tend to agree with you. The other option would for everyone to adjust to the new level. Which looks to not be happening.

On the bright side, I can continue to play my marines without feeling dirty at the FLGS. The same can’t be said about my Eldar.

Yes! The solution to Wraithknights being too cheap is not to make everyhthing else too cheap.

Nightlord1987 wrote:Yup. Now I'm still stuck in the fence as to play my Loyalists as a DA Successor, or an IH one....

I'm glad Tech marines got a bump. Definitely my favorite guy.

Me too. Conversion beamer makes Techmarine sound pretty cool. Now we need a new model!

**WrentheFaceless**

So whats the profile for the Devestator Marine grav cannon? 3/5 salvo like the centurion?

**Desubot**

WrentheFaceless wrote:
So whats the profile for the Devestator Marine grav cannon? 3/5 salvo like the centurion?

Makes the most logical sense seeing as centurions are naturally SNP otherwise salvo makes no sense.

**Mr Morden**

Wasn't one of the many bleets from Eldar Apologists that "all " new codexes would be like that one.

Have we now had several Codexes without any new units - just redone ones? Thats not a bad thing I guess. maybe no more Sleighs?

**Exergy**

warboss wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:

Wonder why they took out Master of the Forge?

When you make the regular techmarine 2 wounds and give him the conversion beamer access, I suspect you pretty much covered 95% of why folks took the master of the forge. The tech will be a MOTF in all but probably one stat like LD or attacks.

maybe the MotF is not in the codex

or maybe he has 3 wounds

If the techmarine on TFC have 2 wounds. Guess which great unit from C:SM just got better?

**jakejackjake**

Nocturnus wrote:
While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.

They buffed quite a bit. The few changes they made did make marines a gak load more powerful. Anyone who doesn't see it is nuts

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Morden wrote:
Wasn't one of the many bleets from Eldar Apologists that "all " new codexes would be like that one.

Have we now had several Codexes without any new units - just redone ones? Thats not a bad thing I guess. maybe no more Sleighs?

If any codex doesn't need new units its marines

You people are insane you can squadron predators and they get tank/monster hunter. You can get three big blasts with awesome anti troop stats and shred and pinning

There's a formation where every unit get a free dedicated transport... Marines are going to trump eldar

**NewTruthNeomaxim**

Yeah, I hate to say it, as it is an unbelievably lazy "fix"... but adding Grav like it was free candy, makes under-costed Wraithknights look a whole lot less intimidating.

Again... GW does some of the laziest passes at balancing I have ever seen, it it is sort of there...

... unless you're every non-Eldar, non-Imperium player.

**jakejackjake**

Adding grav was the smallest change. People are failin to see soooo much.

**spartiatis**

jakejackjake wrote:
Adding grav was the smallest change. People are failin to see soooo much.

What are the biggest changes in your opinion and what will drastically change the way we play our army?

**niv-mizzet**

jakejackjake wrote:
Nocturnus wrote:
While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.

They buffed quite a bit. The few changes they made did make marines a gak load more powerful. Anyone who doesn't see it is nuts.

I guess I must be nuts then. As a tourney player, I would still consider a game against these 7e marine rumors much easier than a matchup against taxi'd admech or eldar/crons.
We have triple vehicle sets that lose their special ability by knocking one out. A land raider formation that takes up most of an army, a bunch of very "meh" subformations for the gladius. The full company getting a bunch of free razorbacks or pods can make a run at tournaments. Bikers still look good, cents (assuming no change) still look good. Their actual competitive armies that abuse the best units didn't change much, but what they did NOT get, which is what I was hoping for, is a book where you can take whatever you want and have it be at least viable, similar to eldar/crons.

Even if I did play against a ton of free transports, it's still just a bunch of foot marines. Not exactly the most broken model in the game.

**ClassicCarraway**

jakejackjake wrote:
Nocturnus wrote:
While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.

They buffed quite a bit. The few changes they made did make marines a gak load more powerful. Anyone who doesn't see it is nuts

I must be nuts because I'm just not seeing a massive upgrade. One-use combat doctrines, when compared to the detachment bonuses for Necrons, Eldar, and even Khorne Daemonkin, don't sound all that great, given the required units. Stock tactical termies for 35 points doesn't address their problem, ie, they are too fragile and lack offensive punch. TH/SS termies, the only useful ones, are the same cost (and still a bit overpriced). Termies needed improvements, not a points drop. 4 attacks for dreads is okay, but given that dreads rarely make it to combat, are outclassed by the majority of MCs, and can still be tarpitted rather easily, its not enough to make me suddenly want to field them.

Gravcannons in tacticals and devastator squads is nice, granted, but 49 points for a single T4 wound with a 3+ save is prohibitively expensive and rather useless against Orks, Chaos Daemons, and even DE. At least it makes the rest of the armies rely on reserves and bubble-wrap to protect their heavy hitters from grav-alpha strikes. Vehicle squadrons are nice, and the bonuses even more so. That's probably, in my opinion, the best upgrade to the entire army, but I don't think it makes them a gak-load more powerful, but it does allow SM a nice counter to some of the more problematic units and army builds.

The majority of the formations are either not that impressive or require far too much to be feasible (or both). I'd say the Librarian formation will end up as the top formation because its rather potent and can be fielded without breaking the bank.

So far, I'm not really impressed in light of the more recent codex releases. I'm still hoping there are some key bits of info being left out on these leaks, but I doubt that is the case.

**migooo**

Yodhrin wrote:
Crimson Devil wrote:
You know it is funny that the White Scars and Iron Hands have two of the most popular chapter tactics yet their Limited Editions are two of the last to sell out in the US. lol

A lot of us bought the Iron Hands special edition last time around, for myself I thought I was rewarding GW for finally paying the chapter some attention, which is technically true, if "gutting the chapter's background of everything that made the fans like them in the first place and turning them into a chapter of petty passive-aggressive spankers" counts as attention.

I doubt many will be making the same mistake twice.

Agreed. It should just be renamed the Ultramarine Codex again.

While I like the Salamanders or IH until they are given more than oh they just get x and ignore the fluff I like. I won't be supporting the Blandmarine codex anytime soon.

**Kanluwen**

ClassicCarraway wrote:

The majority of the formations are either not that impressive or require far too much to be feasible (or both). I'd say the Librarian formation will end up as the top formation because its rather potent and can be fielded without breaking the bank.

Assuming it's the same as the Dark Angels Librarius Conclave(a dataslate that came out awhile ago--and the wording so far seems to be the same), there is a bit of a downside.

You nominate a single model at the start of the Psychic phase, and that model then gets the access to any psychic powers known by other models from this Formation within 12" until the end of the phase; however other models from this Formation within 12" of the nominated model cannot manifest psychic powers until the end of the phase.

The Warp Charge points on a 3+ rather than 4+ has the same 12" restriction and only applies to the nominated model.

Again--assuming it's the same; which it very much looks to be.

**Orock**

rkempey002 wrote:
ashikenshin wrote:
Iuchiban from warseer:

Ok, let's go:
The basic "Decurión" is the Demi battle company:
- 1 Captain or Chaplain
- 0-1 Command squad
- 3 Tactical squads
- 1 Assault squad, Bike squad, Attack bike squad, Land speeder squad or Assault Cents.
- 1 Devastator squad or Dev Cent squad.
- 0-1 Dreadnought of any type.

This formation may use any battle doctrines once per battle

If you take 2 Demi-Companies, you get a full Company. (First company with a Captain and the second with a Chaplain). If done so, any unit that is able to purchase a Rhino, Razorback or Drop Pod, may do so without any additional cost.

Termins are now 175 points (Both types), altough hammer and shied cost +10 points

Devastator, for +5 points, may once per game, reroll to hit. Grav cannons + amp cost 35 points.

Chapter master upgrade is not one per army.

No Land Raider Squadrons, but one Formation (3 Land Raiders of any type). They reroll to wound vs Gargantuan Creatures and to penétrate vs Superhevies. If they are at 6" of any other Raider of the formation, they ignore any result on the damage chart but destroyed.

To get the benefit of the tank squadrons you need 3 of them. You lose the benefit if you lose a tank.

Let's go with the formations:

Demi-Company (See above)

Anti-Air Defence Force
- 1 unit of Hunters
- 1 unit of Stalkers
Benefits:
- If one Hunter hits a flyer with the main weapon, all Stalkers in the unit get +1BS when firing at this flyer.
Restrictions:
- Unit of Stalkers: Mínimum 2

1st Company Task Force
- 3-5 Units from:
Termis
Assault Termis
Sternguard Veterans
Vanguard Veterans
Benefits:
- Fear
- Fearless
- At the beginning of the game, pick an enemy unit. Units in this formation have Preferred Enemy against the picked unit
- Enemy units get -2 to L, if they are a 12" of a mínimum of 3 units of this formation
Restrictions: None

Strilke Force Ultra
- 1 Captain
- 2 Termi squads
- 2 Assault Termi squads
- 1 Venerable Dreadnoght
- 1 Stormraven
- 1 LR Crusader or Redeemer
Benefits:
- All units stay in Reserve. Start rolling on your turn 1.
- After coming from reserves, or disembarking, shooting weapons of the Termi squads get +1 shoot (For Example, Assault Cannon becomes Heavy 5)
- When disembarking from a transport, assault Termi units get +1A.
Restrictions:
Captain must have Terminator Armour
All units must enter via DS, unless embarked in a Transport.

Reclusiam Command Squad
- 1 Chaplain
- 1 Command Squad
Benefits:
- All units at 6" benefit from the Fanatic SR, not only the Chaplain unit
Restrictions:
- Unit must purchase a Razorback. Chaplain may not leave the command squad.

10th Company Task Force
- 3-5 units of:
Scout Squad
Scout Bike
0-1 Telion
Benefits:
- Precisión shots during first turn
- If the unit has not the Stealth SR, they get it until the move, shoot, charge, etc.
Restrictions:
- Scout bikes must purchase the mines.

Storm Wing
- 1 Stormraven
- 2 Stormtalons
Benefits:
- Make only a reserve roll for the whole unit
- Stormraven gets the Strafin Run SR, if at least a Talon is alive.
Restrictions:
None

Centurión Siege Breaker Cohort
- 2-4 Assault Cent squads
- 1 Ironclad
Benefits:
- If they destroy a Transport, unit inside the 2D6 S6 AP4 hits, Ignore cover.
- Reroll to penétrate vs buildings
Restrictions:
None

Land Raider Spearhead
- 3 Raiders of any type.
Benefits:
- See previous posts
Restrictions:
None

Librarius Conclave
3-5 Librarians
Benefits:
- Pick one Librarian, This guy knows all the powers of any Lib of the formation at 12". Those Libs may not cast powers this turn. Picked Lib harness warp charges with 3+ if one Lib is at 12" or less. If 2 Libs at 12" or less, harnessing is with 2+.
Restrictions:
None

Armoure Task Force
- 1 Techmarine
- 0-3 TFC
- 3-5 Units of
Vindicators
Predators
Whirlwinds
- 0-1 Chronus
Benefits:
- Ignore crew shaken and stunned if at 6" of a Techmarine or a Techmarine gunner
- Thechmarine and Techmarine gunner get +1 to Ominissiah rolls (repair vehicles)

Suppression Force
- 1 Whirlwind unit
- 1 Landspeeder unit
Benefits:
- One landspeeder may pick an enemy unit at 12". Whirlwinds reroll to hit vs this unit. If the picked unit is out of range of the whirlwinds, the may fire ignoring it.
Restrictions:
None

Buff, that was a big one ....

thought there was something better, oh well

Assuming that these are true, they are pretty lackluster in my opinion. Not sure if these will be used from a competitive standpoint.

You really think the full company, clocking in at around 1480 without gear, with objective secured and free transports adding up to 700+ points is lackluster? Are we playing the same game?

**jakejackjake**

niv-mizzet wrote:
jakejackjake wrote:
Nocturnus wrote:
While not as bad as the Dark Eldar update, this is a lazy, half-assed codex. If the rumors are to be believed. Total cash grab to boost those quarter final sales. I see no reason to use the new book over the current one. I had hopes that Marines would at least be similar to Eldar in terms of power, but alas, it is not to be.

They buffed quite a bit. The few changes they made did make marines a gak load more powerful. Anyone who doesn't see it is nuts.

I guess I must be nuts then. As a tourney player, I would still consider a game against these 7e marine rumors much easier than a matchup against taxi'd admech or eldar/crons.
We have triple vehicle sets that lose their special ability by knocking one out. A land raider formation that takes up most of an army, a bunch of very "meh" subformations for the gladius. The full company getting a bunch of free razorbacks or pods can make a run at tournaments. Bikers still look good, cents (assuming no change) still look good. Their actual competitive armies that abuse the best units didn't change much, but what they did NOT get, which is what I was hoping for, is a book where you can take whatever you want and have it be at least viable, similar to eldar/crons.

Even if I did play against a ton of free transports, it's still just a bunch of foot marines. Not exactly the most broken model in the game.

They opened up so many more combinations than is reasonable. Necrons are by no ways overpowered compared to this new books rumors. Eldar are if you face just maxed wind riders with scatter and wraithknights. Those are the only really overpowered units. The rest is comparable and if you don't think so Id assume it's rose colored glasses. the new rules are strong. You may just be upset it wasn't chamged the way you wanted but it got beefed a lot. I'd face necron over marines if the generals are of equal level as is

You absolutely can not take anything with eldar. Play a game against a good list and opponent with no win drifters or wraithknights and it's easy unless your list sucks, and again this isn't true as a necron player either

**pretre**

Orock wrote:

You really think the full company, clocking in at around 1480 without gear, with objective secured and free transports adding up to 700+ points is lackluster? Are we playing the same game?

Yeah, that one is going to be VERY solid.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
1450 gets you the following:

Captain & Chappy
6x5 Tacticals w/Combi-Grav & Grav Cannon
2x5 Assault Marines w/2 Flamers
2x5 Devs w/4 Grav Cannons
10 Free drop Pods
Add an Aegis with Comms for what, 80?
That's 1530
Add 10 Deathwinds.
That's 1630.

220 Points? Two dreadnoughts with Free Deathwind Drop Pods?

That's 12 Deathwind Drop Pods
20 Grav Cannons and 6 Combi-Gravs
4 Flamers
Two Dreadnoughts
62 Marine bodies

**Experiment 626**

I'm actually beginning to feel tempted to just say 'feth it' and use my Chaos Marines as Templars... Loyalists are now so far above and beyond anything my traitors can pull, unless I go for a mostly daemonic force.
And I'd finally be able to get an actual Heavy Flamer for my sneaky Alpha Legion infiltrators, posing as a unit of Dragon Claws from the Black Dragons Chapter!

**MasterSlowPoke**

Especially as an Attack Bike counts as a full assault sqaud. Hopefully it requires full squads!

**Experiment 626**

MasterSlowPoke wrote:
Especially as an Attack Bike counts as a full assault sqaud. Hopefully it requires full squads!

I doubt it. We have to ensure that Loyalist Marines get as huge of an advantage as possible, because... 'fanboys'

**Talys**

@Orrock -- I don't think the 1480 company is the scary one.

Take just the bare minimum - captain, chaplain, 30 tacticals, 10 assault and 10 devastator, and you're clocking in at much lower than that. If the upgrades are free on the razorbacks, that's 750 points of transports, not to mention 10 heavy weapon vehicle models not easy to remove. Still 550 points worth at minimum.

I don't think the money is on grav cannons on the tactical unless they force you to take 10 man tacticals.

And, a reasonable compromise might be to drop one of the dev squads (and lose a razorback) in exchange for a 3-4 man devastator centurion squad as the death star.

That leaves plenty of room to ally in Draigo, and/pr skitarii in pods, since 35 pt pods are now part of the faction. Points left over go to special weapon upgrades for the tactical, librarians, and maybe a command squad (with another free razorback!)