And some of it might not even be based on formations. The Eldar tanks, for example, get their bonuses just for being taken in a squadron. One HS pick gets you 1-3 tanks, and if you happen to take 3, you get the special bonus.
I expect the SM tanks to have the same thing. There will probably be an entry for the formation/sub-formation thing where you can take a squadron of tanks as one of your picks. Again, like the Eldar.
Funny if the Vindicator formation pans out: that was an Apocalypse formation with that same rule.
It really is like they are trying to make 40k into the original Apocalypse including "field every model you have".
Waiting for kronk and my reaction to any BT specific rules or we become generic marines.
Talizvar wrote: Funny if the Vindicator formation pans out: that was an Apocalypse formation with that same rule.
It really is like they are trying to make 40k into the original Apocalypse including "field every model you have".
It is also funny that they thought for years that the added benefits of those abilities it grants were worth points in the past but now with NuBalance is free as long as you spend $$$.
Talizvar wrote: Funny if the Vindicator formation pans out: that was an Apocalypse formation with that same rule.
It really is like they are trying to make 40k into the original Apocalypse including "field every model you have".
Waiting for kronk and my reaction to any BT specific rules or we become generic marines.
Man if that's true, you'll start seeing resurgences of psyckers fishing for invisibility ever more.
Talizvar wrote: Funny if the Vindicator formation pans out: that was an Apocalypse formation with that same rule.
It really is like they are trying to make 40k into the original Apocalypse including "field every model you have".
Waiting for kronk and my reaction to any BT specific rules or we become generic marines.
Man if that's true, you'll start seeing resurgences of psyckers fishing for invisibility ever more.
BlaxicanX wrote: No one's going to be fishing for invisibility on the off-chance that they fight a tri-vindi list, lol.
Haven't you heard? The solution to every new thing that comes out is, "Invisibility!"
But I think that Thunderwolf Cavalry and Fenrisian Wolves should get Ignore Invisibility. Oh, yeah, and Santa Sleigh. Canines, after all, have a superb sense of smell!
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Colpicklejar wrote: Killing one vindicator would take out the ability to do the mega attack though, right?
Mulletdude wrote: And now my Blood Angels are officially the Dark Angels of 7th =\.
What's an appropriate successor chapter if my marines are painted like blood angels? xD
Just play BA using C:SM and call it a codex compliant company.
What he said. Play them as Codex: Adeptus Astartes.
Which would be great if not for Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinary Priests, Furioso Dreadnoughts, and etc. I like BA because of their toys. I just wish they had their toys and rules at the level of what C:SM is shaping up to have.
And Dark Angels would have liked to have their two previous books at the level Blood Angels were at.
It's your turn to sit back and enjoy the paintrain running at you.
So no idea on what the formations do, just that they exist? Unless it's something really absurdly good, taking 3 land raiders is a huge waste at worst and an army-nullifying cheesewall at best.
Mulletdude wrote: And now my Blood Angels are officially the Dark Angels of 7th =\.
What's an appropriate successor chapter if my marines are painted like blood angels? xD
Just play BA using C:SM and call it a codex compliant company.
What he said. Play them as Codex: Adeptus Astartes.
Which would be great if not for Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinary Priests, Furioso Dreadnoughts, and etc. I like BA because of their toys. I just wish they had their toys and rules at the level of what C:SM is shaping up to have.
And Dark Angels would have liked to have their two previous books at the level Blood Angels were at.
It's your turn to sit back and enjoy the paintrain running at you.
I have a Crimson Fists army that I will continue running. And because GW, I wouldn't count on DA being good.
So, do the data cards in the limited editions not come with the combat doctrines/chapter tactics cards? I'm not seeing them in the descriptions in the NZ site...
Colpicklejar wrote: So no idea on what the formations do, just that they exist? Unless it's something really absurdly good, taking 3 land raiders is a huge waste at worst and an army-nullifying cheesewall at best.
What !? considering running a lone Land Raider is pretty useless...running 3 of them is the way to go in a 2000 pts game
and of course the LR Spearhead formation will get some kind of bonus, let's hope for an invulnerable save or it will not die
And Dark Angels would have liked to have their two previous books at the level Blood Angels were at.
It's your turn to sit back and enjoy the paintrain running at you.
Unlike Chaos and SOB players would have you believe, there is no contest to see who GW screwed over most. There also is no musical chairs game where someone absolutely has to take their turn bending over either.
This two-hundred page, full-colour hardback book contains:
The epic story of the Space Marines, their innumerable conflicts and the revered Codex Astartes that guides them;
Colour schemes and iconography used by the Space Marines’ various chapters, with expertly-painted examples;
A comprehensive army list that allows you to turn your Space Marines collection into a formidable force ready to deploy in games of Warhammer 40,000;
Tactical Objectives, the Gladius Strike Force detachment, twelve formations plus Warlord Traits, Chapter Relics and Chapter tactics.
Seems as though from the description of the regular codex that the various chapters may be getting relics.
Chapter relics sounds like a fancy name for relics. Every time they've tried doing specific chapter only relics someone gets screwed over and the bitching is loud and frequent.....not that that will stop them from making the same mistake all over again of course.
This two-hundred page, full-colour hardback book contains:
The epic story of the Space Marines, their innumerable conflicts and the revered Codex Astartes that guides them;
Colour schemes and iconography used by the Space Marines’ various chapters, with expertly-painted examples;
A comprehensive army list that allows you to turn your Space Marines collection into a formidable force ready to deploy in games of Warhammer 40,000;
Tactical Objectives, the Gladius Strike Force detachment, twelve formations plus Warlord Traits, Chapter Relics and Chapter tactics.
Seems as though from the description of the regular codex that the various chapters may be getting relics.
The only reason I found that significant was because it was next to the chapter tactics and we know those are different.
Chapter relics sounds like a fancy name for relics. Every time they've tried doing specific chapter only relics someone gets screwed over and the bitching is loud and frequent.....not that that will stop them from making the same mistake all over again of course.
At least with the Assault Marine kit, you could buy a set of legs from Anvil Industries and basically have all the parts you need for 5 more Tac Marines.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: At least with the Assault Marine kit, you could buy a set of legs from Anvil Industries and basically have all the parts you need for 5 more Tac Marines.
I have 5 running legs and 5 packs already just laying around. I figure a tac box could be halved. Run a 5 man tac squad to fill the mandatory troop slot, the other 5 being used as Assault marines.
I think I would only have to buy some bolt pistols, I can make axes and swords from plasticard and forged paperclips. I don't know if this is cheaper though honestly.
Hey look, a Forge World Devastator Squad is cheaper (not including postage) in Australia and gives you 5 of the heavy weapon of your choice. Unfortunately there's no Grav Cannons.
Even the Assault Squad from FW is cheaper by ~$2, though it lacks some of the options (all of which except for the Eviscerator is probably in your bitz box anyway)
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Hey look, a Forge World Devastator Squad is cheaper (not including postage) in Australia and gives you 5 of the heavy weapon of your choice. Unfortunately there's no Grav Cannons.
Even the Assault Squad from FW is cheaper by ~$2, though it lacks some of the options (all of which except for the Eviscerator is probably in your bitz box anyway)
Lol, that is funny.
Seriously, GW should just cut Australian distribution and ship from the uk at uk prices to local stores and customers. I am pretty sure Australians would take a slower delivery by a few days over 40% price difference or whatever it comes to.
Despite the huge price increase I have a feeling Australian fans mostly have ways to save over gw prices. I can't imagine the median income over there supporting these prices. And why in gods sweet name do they pay more for steam games????? Does it somehow cost steam more to electronically send a game over there than say america?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I really thought the Devs would be AUD$70 a box like the Assault Marines. Nope. AUD$7-fething-8 a box.
Unbelievable...
Then you weren't paying attention, the leaked Euro pics showed the Devs being more expensive than AM's in Europe, so it's natural they'd also be more expensive in Oz.
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Orock wrote: Despite the huge price increase I have a feeling Australian fans mostly have ways to save over gw prices. I can't imagine the median income over there supporting these prices. And why in gods sweet name do they pay more for steam games????? Does it somehow cost steam more to electronically send a game over there than say america?
The inflated Steam prices relate to contracts with brick and mortar stores over here. If brick and mortar game stores died in Australia, it'd be the best thing to happen to PC gaming, they stock barely any PC games anyway and only serve to inflate our prices.
You mean the slow, dawning horror that the chances of them removing the shield eternal is increasing?
... and Xenos armies everywhere breathed a sigh of relief.
Because xenos armies have it so bad, right? Heaven forbid the army that actually has to pay for durability is capable of being durable in 7th.
Yeah, the two Eldar and Necron players I often game with physically gak themselves when I whip out my 3 wound immune to ID model. Well, until their turn of course, when they quickly hose the fething thing down in a barrage of fire that Space Marines can only dream of.
Talys wrote: Seriously, GW should just cut Australian distribution and ship from the uk at uk prices to local stores and customers. I am pretty sure Australians would take a slower delivery by a few days over 40% price difference or whatever it comes to.
We used to be able to do that, but the embongo stopped us, and then when we could still order from GWUK directly they started slapping on imaginary shipping costs ($40-$70) to any order (even a single paint pot) to discourage people from ordering from GWUK (and GWUS as well).
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Then you weren't paying attention, the leaked Euro pics showed the Devs being more expensive than AM's in Europe, so it's natural they'd also be more expensive in Oz.
Well excuse me, princess. Doesn't make it any better, now does it?
H.B.M.C. wrote: I really thought the Devs would be AUD$70 a box like the Assault Marines. Nope. AUD$7-fething-8 a box.
Unbelievable...
Then you weren't paying attention, the leaked Euro pics showed the Devs being more expensive than AM's in Europe, so it's natural they'd also be more expensive in Oz.
Wilson wrote: Dark angels with Grav. ( sorry for pointing out the obvious- please dont kill me! )
FETHING YES!! GET IN!! lol. About time! lol.
Ravenwing might be good!
Because if the rumours of Grav with amps being double the price of a lascannon on tacs is true, and both tacs and Devs buy from the heavy list...
Hopefully it's not true that grav cannons and amp are 40points! Make them awful right off the bat. 230pts for 4 Grav cannons? Without relentless or a pod? Jeez. 265pts with a pod... Might as well buy centurions.
Lets just say I doubt dark Angels are getting centurions :/
Wilson wrote: Dark angels with Grav. ( sorry for pointing out the obvious- please dont kill me! )
FETHING YES!! GET IN!! lol. About time! lol.
Ravenwing might be good!
Because if the rumours of Grav with amps being double the price of a lascannon on tacs is true, and both tacs and Devs buy from the heavy list...
Hopefully it's not true that grav cannons and amp are 40points! Make them awful right off the bat. 230pts for 4 Grav cannons? Without relentless or a pod? Jeez. 265pts with a pod... Might as well buy centurions.
Lets just say I doubt dark Angels are getting centurions :/
Or all heavy weapons are seeing a point adjustment in the Marine book- Imagine free Heavy Bolters, 10 point Multimeltas, 15 point Missile Launchers with Flakk included, 15 point Lascannons, 20 point Plasma Cannons, 30 point Grav.
Talys wrote: Seriously, GW should just cut Australian distribution and ship from the uk at uk prices to local stores and customers. I am pretty sure Australians would take a slower delivery by a few days over 40% price difference or whatever it comes to.
We used to be able to do that, but the embongo stopped us, and then when we could still order from GWUK directly they started slapping on imaginary shipping costs ($40-$70) to any order (even a single paint pot) to discourage people from ordering from GWUK (and GWUS as well).
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Then you weren't paying attention, the leaked Euro pics showed the Devs being more expensive than AM's in Europe, so it's natural they'd also be more expensive in Oz.
Well excuse me, princess. Doesn't make it any better, now does it?
Am I mistaken, or wasn't one of the people who bought the Space Marines Chapter bundle a couple years ago from Australia? The one that had over 1,000 models?
I can't imagine that person feels good about the new kits.
Some decent Ltd Edition front cover images plus the extra gubbinz for you all. Raven Guard and the Successors (Aquila with artwork in)versions are quite dark though. White Scars looks the most badass out of all of them IMO:
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Then you weren't paying attention, the leaked Euro pics showed the Devs being more expensive than AM's in Europe, so it's natural they'd also be more expensive in Oz.
Well excuse me, princess. Doesn't make it any better, now does it?
I don't think I ever said it did, sweetie pie, just pointing out one of the very first leaked pics showed it would be more expensive and you simply weren't paying attention if you thought they were going to be the same as AM's
H.B.M.C. wrote: I really thought the Devs would be AUD$70 a box like the Assault Marines. Nope. AUD$7-fething-8 a box.
Unbelievable...
Then you weren't paying attention, the leaked Euro pics showed the Devs being more expensive than AM's in Europe, so it's natural they'd also be more expensive in Oz.
Am I mistaken, or wasn't one of the people who bought the Space Marines Chapter bundle a couple years ago from Australia? The one that had over 1,000 models?
I can't imagine that person feels good about the new kits.
I'm pretty sure that someone who spent $10,000 or $20,000 (whatever it was) to purchase a full chapter of Ultramarines in 1 shot is not too worried about new kits, lol And I'm also pretty sure they didn't buy those models expecting that they'd never have to buy more SM stuff
The real question is... Has he painted all 1000 models yet?!?
Talys wrote: Seriously, GW should just cut Australian distribution and ship from the uk at uk prices to local stores and customers. I am pretty sure Australians would take a slower delivery by a few days over 40% price difference or whatever it comes to.
We used to be able to do that, but the embongo stopped us, and then when we could still order from GWUK directly they started slapping on imaginary shipping costs ($40-$70) to any order (even a single paint pot) to discourage people from ordering from GWUK (and GWUS as well).
Man, that's insane. I actually, meant, though, that GW should, as a policy, shut down Australian operations and ship from Europe if the cost of doing business in Australia is so high that it necessitates such a massive pricing discrepancy that Forge World stuff (shipped from the UK) actually ends up being cheaper. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Australians would prefer this than the insane (almost punitive) premium attached to products presently.
Since that probably won't happen, uou really need to find a buddy to buy them from the US (or Europe), box it up, and ship it over to Australia. It's a pity that Australia is an island; in Canada, what we often do when the US has better prices is ship to a border town, drive across, and pick it up There are companies along the border that do nothing other than receive thousands of packages each day for people who want to do this, and they charge a mere $2 for a shipment.
Sometimes (often!), a product on Amazon.ca costs $150, and the same product is $50 on Amazon.com.
Yikes, I thought the Assault Squad was expensive till I saw the Devastators. £5.60 per miniature (I'm guessing the servitor fulfils some sort of ammo grot role so I'm not really counting that as a mini...could count it as £5 for each Marine and £3 for a glorified bit).
But, it's not all bad. I may not be forking over the cash but I like some things from this release. The general move towards including more weapons is welcome, and I quite like the emphasis with this and the ASM on including a few more scenic base bits on the sprue (not that this is entirely new). That's something I think they should start doing with more armies. Makes me wonder why GW don't just hurry up and start making whole sprues of scenic bases already.
The Devs are the same price as some of the bigger models, for example Wraithguard. It's expensive but at least you get three sprues and a LOT of stuff.
Any changes at all in the 3 previewed unit entries?
This is the first Codex for an army that I play that I will not pay for. Too expensive to keep up at this release pace.
Termie Captain is boss.
Devs are okay, you get 6 sets of legs in the box, so that's basically a free guy (meshes well with the 5 extra bodies in the Assault Squad), and there's enough guns to outfit 3 Devastator units if you get a box of Tacticals. Plus all the special and melee weapons to upgrade any old squads.
SickSix wrote: Well least there is no size restriction on the infantry that can go in the drop pod in its own rules. So that rumor/speculation is busted.
Downside is that it's another source for Free Ride lists.
SickSix wrote: Well least there is no size restriction on the infantry that can go in the drop pod in its own rules. So that rumor/speculation is busted.
Downside is that it's another source for Free Ride lists.
I'm sure the next edition that comes out in three months or so will take away dedicated transports for battle brothers. And then 9th will bring it back.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: The price for a Sister equivalent is AUD$113, apparently. Without any bitz, or flexibility, or anything. So AUD$78 is a bargain!
Yeah but that's a Sisters squad, so, y'know, usual story: Who cares?
Warhams-77 wrote: There are 12 heavy weapons in the Dev kit plus the stuff for the Sergeant. At least for GW pricing that's kind of okay
Of which you can use, with that kit, a maximum of 5, and in doing so forego all the Sergeant stuff.
The kit is bad value because you are left with more of the kit that you haven't used than you have.
SickSix wrote: Well least there is no size restriction on the infantry that can go in the drop pod in its own rules. So that rumor/speculation is busted.
Downside is that it's another source for Free Ride lists.
I'm sure the next edition that comes out in three months or so will take away dedicated transports for battle brothers. And then 9th will bring it back.
Easier fix:
Drop Pods only should have been available as Dedicated Transports.
I'm anxious to see what's become of the Black Templars in this new codex...
If they've removed the staple Crusader Squad, then feth-it, I'm sticking to the 6th ed codex while I wait eternally for a Chaos Marine codex that has more than 3 special/4 heavy weapon options for my squaddies.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I assume you can recycle the extra options in the Devastator box to use on regular tacticals. Doesn't their box only come with a missile launcher?
Yup. The dev box, on it’s own, is a poor value. On a cost per model value, it’s pretty bad. But when you view it as a boost in versatility to your whole collection, it becomes much better. It’s not like the options in say, a box of centurions, where the options you aren’t using just go to your bits box to collect dust, because they only work with that kit. All the extra guns just need some PA bodies to use, and those tend to be cheap and plentiful.
The price bump is not enjoyable, but also not unexpected. Particularly since there are 4 more guns then the last box, and a ton of (unneeded) sarge upgrades. Although the combi-combi is one that might see use.
SickSix wrote: Well least there is no size restriction on the infantry that can go in the drop pod in its own rules. So that rumor/speculation is busted.
Downside is that it's another source for Free Ride lists.
I'm sure the next edition that comes out in three months or so will take away dedicated transports for battle brothers. And then 9th will bring it back.
Easier fix:
Drop Pods only should have been available as Dedicated Transports.
Well, blame the guy who wrote space wolves for that one, I suppose. Or the ork book, since I think that came first and made dedicated transports fast attack for the first time. Or was it dark eldar?
SickSix wrote: Well least there is no size restriction on the infantry that can go in the drop pod in its own rules. So that rumor/speculation is busted.
Downside is that it's another source for Free Ride lists.
I'm sure the next edition that comes out in three months or so will take away dedicated transports for battle brothers. And then 9th will bring it back.
Easier fix:
Drop Pods only should have been available as Dedicated Transports.
Well, blame the guy who wrote space wolves for that one, I suppose. Or the ork book, since I think that came first and made dedicated transports fast attack for the first time. Or was it dark eldar?
Orks were the first '7th edition' styled book.
The early releases IIRC went; Orks/Gazy book --> SW's/Champs of Fenris --> DE/Haemie Cult --> BA's
SickSix wrote: Well least there is no size restriction on the infantry that can go in the drop pod in its own rules. So that rumor/speculation is busted.
Downside is that it's another source for Free Ride lists.
I'm sure the next edition that comes out in three months or so will take away dedicated transports for battle brothers. And then 9th will bring it back.
Easier fix:
Drop Pods only should have been available as Dedicated Transports.
Well, blame the guy who wrote space wolves for that one, I suppose. Or the ork book, since I think that came first and made dedicated transports fast attack for the first time. Or was it dark eldar?
There is a SIGNIFICANT difference between something like an Ork Trukk or Battlewagon and a Drop Pod.
There would have been nothing wrong with Drop Pods being strictly Dedicated Transports.
You could do that in the last book as well. Did anyone ever do it though? It always struck me as a bad option. I could understand taking a pod for the TFC, just to boost your count, but never actually using it. With the ability to just take pods empty as FA picks, the ability to take them for TFCs seems useless now.
Crazyterran wrote: Well, blame the guy who wrote space wolves for that one, I suppose. Or the ork book, since I think that came first and made dedicated transports fast attack for the first time. Or was it dark eldar?
It was actually the 2006 Tau codex... but most of us assumed it was a layout error. Well, it probably was, back then.
Talizvar wrote: Funny if the Vindicator formation pans out: that was an Apocalypse formation with that same rule.
It really is like they are trying to make 40k into the original Apocalypse including "field every model you have".
Waiting for kronk and my reaction to any BT specific rules or we become generic marines.
We will see. We have 3 HQ characters and our templar brethren kits. We'll get some love!
Talizvar wrote: Funny if the Vindicator formation pans out: that was an Apocalypse formation with that same rule.
It really is like they are trying to make 40k into the original Apocalypse including "field every model you have".
Waiting for kronk and my reaction to any BT specific rules or we become generic marines.
We will see. We have 3 HQ characters and our templar brethren kits. We'll get some love!
Notice, under the captain, Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists) under special rules.
I wonder if it's permitted, or what happens, if you take models from the codex that are, for example, Chapter Tactics (Imperial Fists) and Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines). Or maybe, there's a rule that says that you can only take models that are of the chapter that you select, or ones that aren't restricted to a chapter.
Nevelon wrote: The pics of the electronic edition list builder thing show crusader squads, so looks like BT are still a thing and included.
Black Templars confirmed.
Thank the true Gods!
At least I'll have something to work on while waiting for my no.1 loves to get their updated.
I'm really curious to see what the Chapter Relics look like this time around as well... Under the last book, I'd often thought about "if I did a Templar army one day..." I'd have chosen a bike-mounted Marshal w/Burning Blade, leading a bike command squad of Power Lance + Storm shield bad@$$'s, simply because I love the whole 'Teutonic Knights in space' themes the BT's are based around!
Mind, I'm also hoping that Hand Flamers become a thing for Vanillas too, as again, I personally see the Templars as being more into 'burn the witch, purge the heretic, kill it with (rightous & holy) FIRE!' than a bunch of grav-lovers like most Marine armies seen these days.
I know it won't happen, just like Templar Assault squads won't be getting their Storm Shield option back, but, a girl can still dream!
Las wrote: So, this could've been an errata and formation data slate?
Probably. They did tweak some units that we know of. Dev's getting Grav, and Assault Squads getting Eviscerators. Why would they pass up an opportunity to make more money and officially update the book to 7th Ed?
rybackstun wrote: It's incredibly disappointing to see BT still in the main book.
Wonder what other parts of our Identity that they'll continue to strip from us.
Not really looking forward to this book.
Better than getting squated.
This is just me, but honestly, no. At least at that point I could stop hoping that they would do the right thing and just play the 4th edition book even if it is technically worse than more recent releases. Sure I could do that anyway, but there is a compulsion to run the latest book with the perception that it's supposed to be better.
Las wrote: So, this could've been an errata and formation data slate?
Quite - I am not clear why a new codex is justified, unless solely to change the name to "Adeptus Astartes".
The same could largely be said for any codex GW has released in the last 3 years. Where most companies offer you a new edition to improve the quality of the rules, GW sells them as a matter of course and of profit, and has been doing in long enough to indoctrinate the player base into assuming they 'must' buy the update whether it is worth it or not.
Las wrote: So, this could've been an errata and formation data slate?
Quite - I am not clear why a new codex is justified, unless solely to change the name to "Adeptus Astartes".
The same could largely be said for any codex GW has released in the last 3 years. Where most companies offer you a new edition to improve the quality of the rules, GW sells them as a matter of course and of profit, and has been doing in long enough to indoctrinate the player base into assuming they 'must' buy the update whether it is worth it or not.
Which is why I don't buy codexes anymore.
That is too general a statement, and pretty false. The last 3 years of codeces were all thick with new stuff an many of them were in desperate need of an update (something that this board couldn't shut up about when I first joined it). Compare the quality of the Eldar release to what we're seeing here so far. That book had huge overhauls which did a lot to justify it being released in a new edition.
Not to mention that this release pace is no where near GW's MO if you look at them as a whole.
I was hugely underwhelmed by the content of the last SM codex and I hugely resent the blatant cash-grabbing of a 'new' (yeah right, new content will be negligible) codex significantly less than 2 years after the last one.
Keep it up GW, more and more of my hobby budget go towards Malifaux and random Reaper figures or is being diverted to other things.
The only thing I'll be getting from this release is some assault marine legs from a bits site.
I'm not sure if this has already been posted, but:
1. Whirlwind is now out of stock on the UK site.
2. The Demi Company seems a bit off to me. The picture shows 3x Tactical Squads, a full 10 man Assault Marine Squad, and one 5 man Devastator squad, plus Dreadnought, Captain and retinue. However, the text says that there are only two Tactical Squads, and the model count supports this too? Have GW forgotten/retconned what a Demi-Company is?
I know we haven't seen the rules year but isn't this just some extra detachments? Hop the Templars get some better chapter tactics cool Lysander has an extra wound
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'm not sure if this has already been posted, but:
1. Whirlwind is now out of stock on the UK site.
2. The Demi Company seems a bit off to me. The picture shows 3x Tactical Squads, a full 10 man Assault Marine Squad, and one 5 man Devastator squad, plus Dreadnought, Captain and retinue. However, the text says that there are only two Tactical Squads, and the model count supports this too? Have GW forgotten/retconned what a Demi-Company is?
This bundle contains everything needed to field the Battle Demi-Company from Codex: Space Marines, featuring a Space Marine Battleforce, a Space Marine Command Squad, two Tactical Squads, two Assault Squads and a Devastator Squad. Forty-two miniatures, one dominant formation.
Read the contents of the Space Marine Battleforce.
It's a Tactical Squad, Captain, and Dreadnought.
The Command Squad, Devastator Squad and the two Tactical/Assault Squads are separate boxes.
That is too general a statement, and pretty false. The last 3 years of codeces were all thick with new stuff an many of them were in desperate need of an update (something that this board couldn't shut up about when I first joined it). Compare the quality of the Eldar release to what we're seeing here so far. That book had huge overhauls which did a lot to justify it being released in a new edition.
Not to mention that this release pace is no where near GW's MO if you look at them as a whole.
Indeed. Also, all we have are teases, not the actual codex. How can someone say that the codex is just a rehash, when it's not even out yet? O.o
Everyone said the same thing about Codex Eldar Craftworlds, until it came out. And then, suddenly, it was, OMG.
Not a single transport in these bundles and Battleforces. Remember when a Battleforce used to include a rhino or a drop pod? Those were the days...
Sad thing is that I would have jumped on this battleforce when so started the game a year ago.
I think I am just going to get one of the Dev boxes so far, it will give me enough to finish my HB, LC, and MLDev Squads. Just need to get a couple Signums. If I get another Tactical Squad I will have a complete Demi-Company.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Not a single transport in these bundles and Battleforces. Remember when a Battleforce used to include a rhino or a drop pod? Those were the days...
Sad thing is that I would have jumped on this battleforce when so started the game a year ago.
I think I am just going to get one of the Dev boxes so far, it will give me enough to finish my HB, LC, and MLDev Squads. Just need to get a couple Signums. If I get another Tactical Squad I will have a complete Demi-Company.
Yeah, I think a transport is warranted. My favorite battleforce is Necron. In my mind it's perfect: 20 warriors, 5 immortals, a Ghost Ark, and some scarabs. How much better can it get?
We should remember someone who allegedly saw the new codex says Dreadnoughts get 4+ attacks now. Maybe they are majorly buffed and will become the new Centurions.
Edit -- still, it would be really nice to see a DT in there., even a Rhino. I would rather have a basic vehicle than a captain model! Plus, it encourages you to buy multiple battleforce boxes (what would you do with 3 captains).
Probable that GW feel they have saturated the transport market though and have put production runs elsewhere now.
Realsitically what SM player dosent have a decent/large selection of transports after this many editions.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'm not sure if this has already been posted, but:
1. Whirlwind is now out of stock on the UK site.
2. The Demi Company seems a bit off to me. The picture shows 3x Tactical Squads, a full 10 man Assault Marine Squad, and one 5 man Devastator squad, plus Dreadnought, Captain and retinue. However, the text says that there are only two Tactical Squads, and the model count supports this too? Have GW forgotten/retconned what a Demi-Company is?
This bundle contains everything needed to field the Battle Demi-Company from Codex: Space Marines, featuring a Space Marine Battleforce, a Space Marine Command Squad, two Tactical Squads, two Assault Squads and a Devastator Squad. Forty-two miniatures, one dominant formation.
Read the contents of the Space Marine Battleforce.
It's a Tactical Squad, Captain, and Dreadnought.
The Command Squad, Devastator Squad and the two Tactical/Assault Squads are separate boxes.
Ah, that serves me right for not checking the entry right! Thanks, I'm a little more at ease now.
Ratius wrote: Probable that GW feel they have saturated the transport market though and have put production runs elsewhere now.
Realsitically what SM player dosent have a decent/large selection of transports after this many editions.
Who is buying a Tactical Squad without a transport of some sort? Footslogging Tacticals are just an easy way to give your opponent a free victory point or two. The only issue I could see is that people tend to run drop pods or rhinos, not both. If they included one type of transport, they would be losing out on the other half. So I guess it makes sense to not include either. Rhinos are cheap online anyway.
If GW was smart, they would have deals on their store like buy a Tactical Squad, get a Rhino or Drop Pod for $5 off. Basically, something like 15% off a Dedicated Transport when you buy a Troops. Could be applied to any army.
Ratius wrote: Probable that GW feel they have saturated the transport market though and have put production runs elsewhere now.
Realsitically what SM player dosent have a decent/large selection of transports after this many editions.
Who is buying a Tactical Squad without a transport of some sort? Footslogging Tacticals are just an easy way to give your opponent a free victory point or two. The only issue I could see is that people tend to run drop pods or rhinos, not both. If they included one type of transport, they would be losing out on the other half. So I guess it makes sense to not include either. Rhinos are cheap online anyway.
If GW was smart, they would have deals on their store like buy a Tactical Squad, get a Rhino or Drop Pod for $5 off. Basically, something like 15% off a Dedicated Transport when you buy a Troops. Could be applied to any army.
Putting it politely, doing something where there is a "choice" with a discount applied at the till is not something which will work out as well as you think. I would not be surprised to see a Rhino and Tactical Squad bundle in the next few months though. They've done a few here and there but not as many as I would have liked to see. I think it has to do with the number of transports available to each squad for a "Dedicated Transport" option.
Ratius wrote: Probable that GW feel they have saturated the transport market though and have put production runs elsewhere now.
Realsitically what SM player dosent have a decent/large selection of transports after this many editions.
Who is buying a Tactical Squad without a transport of some sort? Footslogging Tacticals are just an easy way to give your opponent a free victory point or two. The only issue I could see is that people tend to run drop pods or rhinos, not both. If they included one type of transport, they would be losing out on the other half. So I guess it makes sense to not include either. Rhinos are cheap online anyway.
If GW was smart, they would have deals on their store like buy a Tactical Squad, get a Rhino or Drop Pod for $5 off. Basically, something like 15% off a Dedicated Transport when you buy a Troops. Could be applied to any army.
You just answered why GW probably won't do such a thing and why it's completely unnecessary from their PoV:
"Who is buying a Tactical Squad without a transport of some sort?"
Exactly! There is no need for an incentive, why would they throw away $5?
Ratius wrote: Probable that GW feel they have saturated the transport market though and have put production runs elsewhere now.
Realsitically what SM player dosent have a decent/large selection of transports after this many editions.
Who is buying a Tactical Squad without a transport of some sort? Footslogging Tacticals are just an easy way to give your opponent a free victory point or two. The only issue I could see is that people tend to run drop pods or rhinos, not both. If they included one type of transport, they would be losing out on the other half. So I guess it makes sense to not include either. Rhinos are cheap online anyway.
If GW was smart, they would have deals on their store like buy a Tactical Squad, get a Rhino or Drop Pod for $5 off. Basically, something like 15% off a Dedicated Transport when you buy a Troops. Could be applied to any army.
Not quite. A lot of people want a specific transport. But the smart one to pack in, I guess would be razorback, since the production cost is basically the same as rhino, it would cover 2 vehicles, and they could sell the set for the price of tactical + rhino.
On the other hand, pod spam is a more popular tactic, so tactical + pod or assault + pod -- in the same way they had the kabalites or wyches with a raider last year -- would be the way to sell it, IMHO.
But for me, a battle box was always about GREAT value. So a good deal, to me, would be: Tactical Squad, Assault Squad, Drop Pod, Dreadnought (if they're playable now) -- and you get the dreadnought for free.
@Talys, Kaluwen, and nekooni I get why they won't do it, but it would be cool, nonetheless. It isn't like there isn't a precedent either. I would be all over a buy a Tactical Squad, get a Razorback for the price of a Rhino. I only ever get Razorback kits anyway.
No double special weapons for tacticals.
No CCW (even as a pay-for option).
No meaningful cost reductions.
No improvement to the Assault Squads, your window to the Land of Bland.
Just some formation rules that would seem cheesey in a vacuum but pale next to the recent fondue-a-go-go that are various xeno codices.
Oh, and the devastators with grav, whoopdie doo.
Just LOL@u if you still play SM. In fact, LOL@u if you still play, period.
No double special weapons for tacticals.
No CCW (even as a pay-for option).
No meaningful cost reductions.
No improvement to the Assault Squads, your window to the Land of Bland.
Just some formation rules that would seem cheesey in a vacuum but pale next to the recent fondue-a-go-go that are various xeno codices.
Oh, and the devastators with grav, whoopdie doo.
Just LOL@u if you still play SM. In fact, LOL@u if you still play, period.
Nice new models though.
So you've seen the stuff? Would you mind posting it?
Par for the course actually. These ugly friggin excuses to add in more pages have been popping up in the Eldar book too. And I think Mechanicus. Remember the days when they used to paint models to show what painted models look like? Good times.
And from your list what would you have actually expected? We have zero idea of any specific rules and other thanked to arguable the most important aspect which is the chapter tactics and combat doctrines. depending on price grav devs add a lot, we will have to see how prices work out and what the formations do. It would be interesting to see the actual base size instead of the speculated size.
Also you do know those pictures aren't there as art, they are there to help people figure out how to paint the color scheme and so they need to be very basic with obvious colors, no highlights etc.
I honestly don't understand this art transition to pages of cartoony looking characters. I know they've been recently doing this, but my niece in junior high does work that looks suspiciously similar. She draws little models with dresses on....but I'm thinking of asking GW if they could put her to work.
I feel space marines could really enhance her portfolio.
I mean. You know. It's not like they'd be publishing any work of hers that would be any worse than what they're clearly putting into their books now.... Are there labor laws in britain for children? Hrmmmmm. >.>
Hey I just had a great idea. Why not use this sort of art for a new line of childrens novels. Instead of "See Spot run" we'd have,
"See Regulus happily charge the Eldar". "Regulus was mad, he has a red helm."
"The Eldar was mostly innocent, but he didn't live in the light of the Emprah"
"Regulus knew. He knew the Eldar needed to die"
"See Regulus commit [sensored due to the graphic nature of this scene]"
"The Eldar ceased to exist in the Emprah's name"
Man, I am gonna help GW make sooooooo much money with this idea.
No double special weapons for tacticals.
No CCW (even as a pay-for option).
No meaningful cost reductions.
No improvement to the Assault Squads, your window to the Land of Bland.
Just some formation rules that would seem cheesey in a vacuum but pale next to the recent fondue-a-go-go that are various xeno codices.
Oh, and the devastators with grav, whoopdie doo.
Just LOL@u if you still play SM. In fact, LOL@u if you still play, period.
Nice new models though.
So you've seen the stuff? Would you mind posting it?
Read the thread. The unit entries for tacticals, assault and devastators have all been posted. No significant changes.
The #1 issue with the marine codex is.....marines. The vehicles are passable, bikes are good, the characters are largely solid, but terminators have sucked for 15+ years, tacticals are hilariously out gunned and classed by virtually every other troop choice in the game, Devastators are too fragile for their points and the assault marines couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, and they all die like chumps for the cost. The problem is that every single tidbit we have seen doesn't change these facts, which basically means grav-star and bikes will reign supreme unless they some how break those too, or the new formations are hilarious overpowered.
A new codex is supposed to herald new play styles in my opinion. Something to get excited about.....this has none of that so far.
So now we're swapping shoulders for assault / chapter icons based on unit? I thought uniformity and consistency was supposed to be a hallmark of the Astartes.
Gotta agree with carnage. I'm sort of holding out hope that the weapons pages will reveal that bolt weapons gained shred and chainswords became rending or something to help out the tacs and asm, because they desperately need it.
If bolts and swords are unchanged, then this book is a whiff as far as I'm concerned.
niv-mizzet wrote: Gotta agree with carnage. I'm sort of holding out hope that the weapons pages will reveal that bolt weapons gained shred and chainswords became rending or something to help out the tacs and asm, because they desperately need it.
If bolts and swords are unchanged, then this book is a whiff as far as I'm concerned.
That's the core of the issue though....you CANNOT change bolt and chain weapons...or lascannons or plasma guns, they are literally in a dozen books. You can't change them without either making them something lame like "Astates bolter" and "chainsword mkII" or completely upsetting the balance of the game. I mean, imagine sister of battle with rending bolters. That said.....what balance?
The only thing you can really do is add special rules to the marines like "bolter marksmen" or "brutal strength" or something....and they haven't done that, as per the unit profiles.
Anyways.....hype level to 1 out of 10....grav-cannons on devastators, biggest change so far.
No double special weapons for tacticals.
No CCW (even as a pay-for option).
No meaningful cost reductions.
No improvement to the Assault Squads, your window to the Land of Bland.
Just some formation rules that would seem cheesey in a vacuum but pale next to the recent fondue-a-go-go that are various xeno codices.
Oh, and the devastators with grav, whoopdie doo.
Just LOL@u if you still play SM. In fact, LOL@u if you still play, period.
Nice new models though.
Sounds like a great vindication for GW against all those scoundrels who thought that halving the codex life cycle yet again was just a quick and cheap (for GW.. not for themselves!) cash grab.
No double special weapons for tacticals.
No CCW (even as a pay-for option).
No meaningful cost reductions.
No improvement to the Assault Squads, your window to the Land of Bland.
Just some formation rules that would seem cheesey in a vacuum but pale next to the recent fondue-a-go-go that are various xeno codices.
Oh, and the devastators with grav, whoopdie doo.
Just LOL@u if you still play SM. In fact, LOL@u if you still play, period.
Nice new models though.
So you've seen the stuff? Would you mind posting it?
Read the thread. The unit entries for tacticals, assault and devastators have all been posted. No significant changes.
The #1 issue with the marine codex is.....marines. The vehicles are passable, bikes are good, the characters are largely solid, but terminators have sucked for 15+ years, tacticals are hilariously out gunned and classed by virtually every other troop choice in the game, Devastators are too fragile for their points and the assault marines couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, and they all die like chumps for the cost. The problem is that every single tidbit we have seen doesn't change these facts, which basically means grav-star and bikes will reign supreme unless they some how break those too, or the new formations are hilarious overpowered.
A new codex is supposed to herald new play styles in my opinion. Something to get excited about.....this has none of that so far.
Sums up my feelings as well. All the new stuff seem pretty worthless so far as well with the exception of the Grav Devs which might see use. It is also great to see that they ensured the Veteran Sgt upgrade was crappy by not giving them an extra wound like the Skitarii and Exarchs.
This release is looking pretty terrible. I don't trust the formations to make up for these obvious problems that still exist based on the info we have seen. :(
niv-mizzet wrote: Gotta agree with carnage. I'm sort of holding out hope that the weapons pages will reveal that bolt weapons gained shred and chainswords became rending or something to help out the tacs and asm, because they desperately need it.
If bolts and swords are unchanged, then this book is a whiff as far as I'm concerned.
That's the core of the issue though....you CANNOT change bolt and chain weapons...or lascannons or plasma guns, they are literally in a dozen books. You can't change them without either making them something lame like "Astates bolter" and "chainsword mkII" or completely upsetting the balance of the game. I mean, imagine sister of battle with rending bolters. That said.....what balance?
The only thing you can really do is add special rules to the marines like "bolter marksmen" or "brutal strength" or something....and they haven't done that, as per the unit profiles.
Anyways.....hype level to 1 out of 10....grav-cannons on devastators, biggest change so far.
All of those special rules are done via chapter tactics or formations now.....they would not be in the unit entries of the force requisition thing. We have literally seen 4 or 5 of the special rules, the only leaks we have from the book have actually shown significant changes for units and abilities and war gear....
niv-mizzet wrote: Gotta agree with carnage. I'm sort of holding out hope that the weapons pages will reveal that bolt weapons gained shred and chainswords became rending or something to help out the tacs and asm, because they desperately need it.
If bolts and swords are unchanged, then this book is a whiff as far as I'm concerned.
That's the core of the issue though....you CANNOT change bolt and chain weapons...or lascannons or plasma guns, they are literally in a dozen books. You can't change them without either making them something lame like "Astates bolter" and "chainsword mkII" or completely upsetting the balance of the game. I mean, imagine sister of battle with rending bolters. That said.....what balance?
The only thing you can really do is add special rules to the marines like "bolter marksmen" or "brutal strength" or something....and they haven't done that, as per the unit profiles.
Anyways.....hype level to 1 out of 10....grav-cannons on devastators, biggest change so far.
All of those special rules are done via chapter tactics or formations now.....they would not be in the unit entries of the force requisition thing. We have literally seen 4 or 5 of the special rules, the only leaks we have from the book have actually shown significant changes for units and abilities and war gear....
I'm not really sure they can be done through chapter tactics actually. I mean it's fundamentally possible, but I don't think it would be very effective I suppose. Wouldn't like to see the Imperial fists have good tactical marines, and Raven guard have good assault marines....and have those units suck for everyone else.
As for formations. They are in a weird place in my heart right now. On one hand, I HATE being told what to take and how to play. On the other hand, sweet sweet free bonuses which appeal to the power gamer in me. When the most powerful formations overlap with what I want to take anyways I'm very happy. That said, I would prefer formations to not be a thing at all, and these units to not suck on their own.
As for "significant changes"....you've lost me. What I can remember off-hand;
Lysander has a different warlord trait.....but we don't know how/if the traits have changed.
Tacticals get access to grav cannnons for "almost twice the cost of lascannons", which means a LOT of points unless lascannons have come way down in price. So 25-40 points here. Minor change at best, as tacticals are still extremely poor.
Assault marines get access to an eviscerator. 25 points for an armor bane powerfist....It was said earlier, but people weren't using ASM because they suck at killing tanks, they weren't using them because they plain ole suck. Having it on a normal guy is...interesting, but a single S8 attack for 25 points is stunningly bad.
Devastator get access to grav cannon. Biggest change I'll admit, and MAYBE neat enough to dethrone grav-cents. But with them being rumored to cost "almost twice what a lascannon does"....it's unlikely they will be playable.
Vehicle squadrons. What's the point when the force organization chart is basically worthless?
New formations. Information is sketchy, and they seem hit or miss. Demi-company = lawl? Vindicator formation is potentially amazing, but fragile as hell. Potential here for awesome I suppose.
Maybe the entirety of the portions of the book we haven't seen have been completely overhauled and changed....but what are the odds of that when what he HAVE seen has only seen the smallest of changes?
Significant changes would be a complete re-write of terminators, tacticals and ASM. Customizable chapter tactics. Tiered librarians and chaplains. Formations/FoC option shifts based on the army commander's loadout (terminator captain = terminator troops, ASM captain = ASM troop....etc). I feel I could sit here and write a more balanced and interesting marine codex in an afternoon than GW could produce in 2 years.
Sorry if I come off bitter, but I've played marines since 1998, and the game is in a state that's not even playable to me, and GW seems to be doing the opposite of helping at the moment.
My favorite is the ASM. If I wanted an Evis on Jump Pack I would just use a Power fist on Vanguard. They can do it already for not much more points. They only way to make them worthwhile is if they upped the price of Vanguards. Vanguards are already pretty crappy as is so I don't see how that would be possible.
Squadrons are crap too. The state of the game now is that every vehicle that doesn't have a save is worthless. Shooting has been getting stronger and stronger, the change to the vehicle damage table did nothing because now stuff just gets glanced to death. Squads are just a quite way to get your vehicles killed. Without a change to the way that system works all those expensive vehicles like the 300 point land command raider are going to be left at home.
The thing is that most of that is just not going to happen, you get the free bonus at the expense of optimized efficiency. If that bothers you then You don't take the formation. Formations are never truly free. I have played since 98 as well and I am having the most fun I have had with this edition as a tournament and casual gamer. We just got mechanicus!!!! Never thought that would happen.
Once again it's down to the chapter tactics, sentinels of terra gave twin linked bolters, raptors give rending bolters, white scars made an entirely different army build function. We see many of the same names but we already know that everyone gets combat doctrines in addition to chapter tactics so we will have to see how it changes. White scars lost the bulky restriction, what if ravenguard lost that restriction on their assault marines? What if the basic company has three or four different basic formations like eldar did?
Still have no idea on the basic formations(s), they might be presenting all the options but maybe it is take 2 of x and 3 from the following.
There is so much up in the air. with the eldar book as a comparison knowing that it will go even beyond that because it's marines I am hopeful. The main thing I want to see is them retroactively give some of the other chapters the grav cannon and the eviscerator upgrades since they are building from those kits
GW releases awesome codex for Tau, sells a kittenton of Tau models, including the new ooh-shiny and 'spensive Riptide.
GW releases awesome codex for Eldar, sells a kittenton of Eldar models, including the new ooh-shiny and 'spensive Wraithknight.
Same with necrons, same with knights.
So far so good. The business plan is asinine (because #### you, veteran Marine players; you already have your most numerous models collected, now they are worthless, go buy the ooh-shinys), but it is sound.
Now we have: a new vanilla tac squad, a new BAtac squad, all those upgrade packs, a new dev squad, a new terminator libby... and if I was still playing, I would want to ask WHAT'S MY MOTIVATION TO BUY THEM?
SMs still suck, SM tacticals and ASM suck especially, so for the same money I could buy... units that I could actually win with... like bikes, knights, xenos, etc...
I might be tempted to buy the new kits but I DON'T PLAY ANYMORE... in my collection of six tactical squads and two ASM squads, there are some old models I put together when I only started, and I might want to replace them with newer models that I will put together better and paint better. But I'm certainly not buying more than one-two kits at most... not exactly a river of money to GW coffers.
Now take an active player who's got his gravcenturion star built, and has his bikes built, and is now is supposed to be enticed to buy tacticals and ASM and the termi-libby... and has absolutely zero reason to do so, unless he just wants to build a "different list".
I don't really get what marine players are upset about -- especially since we haven't seen relics yet, or the formations... where 90% of the "fun" is coming from in recent codices.
I see things like calls for shred bolters and rending chainswords and it's like: "Don't you guys even realize what you already have?"
Marines never run off the table, you never have to freak out about losing an entire squad to sweeping advance, you always get to keep your initiative while charging through terrain... basic troops are T4 with a 3+ save.
Are tac marines as awesome as they are in the fluff? Nope... but they can't be for game balance.
In a post-Eldar world everyone is expecting to get an Eldar level codex. That book was stupid and an abberation, whereby if you care about the long-term state of the game you should be happy only one book has completely ruined balance.
In terms of the guaranteed "new" stuff the book has:
- Fast attack drop pods that don't require allies to put ANYTHING YOU WANT into a drop pod.
- Combat Doctrines for every chapter, not just ultras -- which is big, and re-rolling hits in CC for a turn is incredibly good.
- Grav cannon devs are game-changing. SM now have the best anti-armor in the game without compare, and are the most cost-efficient way to deal with Imperial Knights or Wraithknights when paired with drop pods.
- Hidden eviscerators aren't amazing, but they're better than nothing.
As I said earlier: We still don't know what the relics will be, and don't forget you STILL have the ability to create your own Chapter Master, which is a luxury no other army has for the stat line.
If Marines aren't "fun" anymore I get it, but maybe it's just time to try a new army. They've always been the most bland army mechanically, but remain one of the most rock-solid, good every single edition forces.
"In a post-Eldar world everyone is expecting to get an Eldar level codex. That book was stupid and an abberation, whereby if you care about the long-term state of the game you should be happy only one book has completely ruined balance."
Uh... Have you been introduced to decurions, or skitarii riding pods, an all-knight army, or the admech-freaking-war-congregation? Those are all terrible offenders of war crimes against balance right alongside the eldar.
Marines haven't been rock solid in the tourney scene for a while. They've been held up by centurions, bikers, and drop pods. If they were to ever lose those, they would probably be the worst faction in the game.
Locrian wrote: I wouldn't even remotely call marine's in their current form "rock solid". They have been pretty mediocre for a few editions now.
If we're talking tourney level then Space Marines are routinely in the Top 5 of every GT (even if added as allies), and are about to get even better with the changes. Will they unseat Eldar? Maybe not, but they are FAR from "mediocre."
I think Ork, Guard, Dark Eldar, Grey Knight, Tau and CSM players would like to have a word about SM being "mediocre."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
niv-mizzet wrote: "In a post-Eldar world everyone is expecting to get an Eldar level codex. That book was stupid and an abberation, whereby if you care about the long-term state of the game you should be happy only one book has completely ruined balance."
Uh... Have you been introduced to decurions, or skitarii riding pods, an all-knight army, or the admech-freaking-war-congregation? Those are all terrible offenders of war crimes against balance right alongside the eldar.
Marines haven't been rock solid in the tourney scene for a while. They've been held up by centurions, bikers, and drop pods. If they were to ever lose those, they would probably be the worst faction in the game.
Sure, but we can play the "let's take the 3 best things in a book, throw them out and say they'd be the worst" until the cows come home.
What if guard lost leman russ tanks, wyverns and vendettas?
What if orks lost tankbustas, warbikers and lootas?
What if dark eldar lost grotesques, scourges and venoms?
Guard would suck, but I've seen good tourney lists of orks and DE without any of those units.
As weaponry grows cheaper and deadlier, basic marine bodies become more and more of a liability, given their cost. There's a reason I've taken to running scouts as troops instead.
Again, marines are only up there because of some specific toys, just like nids with their flyrants. Marine players like me are annoyed because we want a decent BOOK, not a broken unit or two carrying the rest of the book.
SickSix wrote: Wow, we sure are getting our 'moneys worth' these days! Who did that artwork? one of their kids on MS paint?
As a reward for writing the codex in an afternoon, the Design team got to break out the crayons and color some marine pages. Just for fun GW put them in the book too.
I think the main thing is that people forget that marines are members of the imperium and should be looked at as such. Each branch of the imperium has something they specialize in, and so when brought together as a whole they are able to trump he Xenos powers. This versatility is a huge strength to take advantage of and think about our strategy in that context. With one per unit USRs being the most powerful abilities in the game as the imperium we have the largest range of ICs and the like to get those USRs.
Marines have a great overall stat line. They pay a small price for a lot of the gear they come basic with, Krak and frag grenades are awesome, they don't have to buy a sergeant upgrade because leadership is not as big of a deal. They just need a little something that takes hem away from their jack of all trades nature towards something more specialized, that is where the chapter tactics kicks in. They lend themselves to completely different army builds, on top of that we will have to see how the chapter tactics further interact with the for,action benefits and other such things. I am betting that this will increase the variety of marine builds that will be able to hold their own.
I am looking forward to marines because most tournaments are getting better terrain and moving away from the gun line style missions working in mobility and other aspects. No one does MSU like marines(outside of eldar jet bikes, but I got an ignore cover scorpius for them lol). While I am perfectly open to the idea that it will be weak and a letdown I find that highly unlikely, and the fact that dark angels are after makes me really happy.
Marines have more than enough kits almost all in plastic right now, I am glad they decided to update the older kits that were showing their age and not compatible with the new line they are releasing. The little clam packs of upgrades are great for converters, for 13 bucks you can make a range of special characters. I think this is the way forward, instead of needing to make all the characters in plastic just give us the bits we need this way. It's way cheaper for us and them. Win win. I pray for a deathwatch supplement soon, I can't wait to see the plastic kit for that.
niv-mizzet wrote: Guard would suck, but I've seen good tourney lists of orks and DE without any of those units.
As weaponry grows cheaper and deadlier, basic marine bodies become more and more of a liability, given their cost. There's a reason I've taken to running scouts as troops instead.
Again, marines are only up there because of some specific toys, just like nids with their flyrants. Marine players like me are annoyed because we want a decent BOOK, not a broken unit or two carrying the rest of the book.
I think we're in a time game-wide where armies only work because of a few specific toys. Without drop melta and thunderwolves SW would be unplayable, BA are made good through formations, Tau are only close to being semi-viable because of Riptides and Crisis Suits -- and even then they're borderline. As for Dark Eldar? I don't know how they're playable outside of Eldar allies and venom spam.
I don't disagree that it's a sad state of affairs, but Grav Cannons with amps on Devestators are insanely good and give SM players another great tool.
niv-mizzet wrote: Guard would suck, but I've seen good tourney lists of orks and DE without any of those units.
As weaponry grows cheaper and deadlier, basic marine bodies become more and more of a liability, given their cost. There's a reason I've taken to running scouts as troops instead.
Again, marines are only up there because of some specific toys, just like nids with their flyrants. Marine players like me are annoyed because we want a decent BOOK, not a broken unit or two carrying the rest of the book.
I think we're in a time game-wide where armies only work because of a few specific toys. Without drop melta and thunderwolves SW would be unplayable, BA are made good through formations, Tau are only close to being semi-viable because of Riptides and Crisis Suits -- and even then they're borderline. As for Dark Eldar? I don't know how they're playable outside of Eldar allies and venom spam.
I don't disagree that it's a sad state of affairs, but Grav Cannons with amps on Devestators are insanely good and give SM players another great tool.
Thus my disappointment. Not counting Daemonkin, the last several books have had great internal balance.
Also I'm not totally sure about the grav devs. The rumored price has them at 54 (!) per man, and without relentless/snp at that. Unless they screw up centurions somehow, I don't see people switching away from that for competitive grav units. 265 (with pod) is a heck of a lot for a suicide pod unit that can only single target.
Biggest worry I didn't think about until now is potential nerfs to Tigurius. Then again, maybe he'll get buffed so he only has to reroll failed psychic dice rather than the whole test.
Then again, the main thing is being able to reroll which powers he gets...
Leth wrote: I think the main thing is that people forget that marines are members of the imperium and should be looked at as such. Each branch of the imperium has something they specialize in, and so when brought together as a whole they are able to trump he Xenos powers. This versatility is a huge strength to take advantage of and think about our strategy in that context. With one per unit USRs being the most powerful abilities in the game as the imperium we have the largest range of ICs and the like to get those USRs.
Marines have a great overall stat line. They pay a small price for a lot of the gear they come basic with, Krak and frag grenades are awesome, they don't have to buy a sergeant upgrade because leadership is not as big of a deal. They just need a little something that takes hem away from their jack of all trades nature towards something more specialized, that is where the chapter tactics kicks in. They lend themselves to completely different army builds, on top of that we will have to see how the chapter tactics further interact with the for,action benefits and other such things. I am betting that this will increase the variety of marine builds that will be able to hold their own.
I am looking forward to marines because most tournaments are getting better terrain and moving away from the gun line style missions working in mobility and other aspects. No one does MSU like marines(outside of eldar jet bikes, but I got an ignore cover scorpius for them lol). While I am perfectly open to the idea that it will be weak and a letdown I find that highly unlikely, and the fact that dark angels are after makes me really happy.
Marines have more than enough kits almost all in plastic right now, I am glad they decided to update the older kits that were showing their age and not compatible with the new line they are releasing. The little clam packs of upgrades are great for converters, for 13 bucks you can make a range of special characters. I think this is the way forward, instead of needing to make all the characters in plastic just give us the bits we need this way. It's way cheaper for us and them. Win win. I pray for a deathwatch supplement soon, I can't wait to see the plastic kit for that.
When I first saw that all Imperium armies were battle brothers in 7th, I was thrilled. But that's slowly changed to annoyance over the months- I don't like the fact that my army has to be considered against the enire Imperium for balance. I don't like how "what if drop pods?!" comes up with every new human unit. Space Marines are supposed to be an utterly independent fighting force, 1000 men against the universe. Loads of people like to fluff out their unique homebrew chapters- how many people like to homebrew a librarian, a combat tactical squad, and 3 centurions seconded to a grey knight brotherhood in the service of an inquisitor allied to the mechanicum?
Leth wrote: I think the main thing is that people forget that marines are members of the imperium and should be looked at as such. Each branch of the imperium has something they specialize in, and so when brought together as a whole they are able to trump he Xenos powers. This versatility is a huge strength to take advantage of and think about our strategy in that context. With one per unit USRs being the most powerful abilities in the game as the imperium we have the largest range of ICs and the like to get those USRs.
Marines have a great overall stat line. They pay a small price for a lot of the gear they come basic with, Krak and frag grenades are awesome, they don't have to buy a sergeant upgrade because leadership is not as big of a deal. They just need a little something that takes hem away from their jack of all trades nature towards something more specialized, that is where the chapter tactics kicks in. They lend themselves to completely different army builds, on top of that we will have to see how the chapter tactics further interact with the for,action benefits and other such things. I am betting that this will increase the variety of marine builds that will be able to hold their own.
I am looking forward to marines because most tournaments are getting better terrain and moving away from the gun line style missions working in mobility and other aspects. No one does MSU like marines(outside of eldar jet bikes, but I got an ignore cover scorpius for them lol). While I am perfectly open to the idea that it will be weak and a letdown I find that highly unlikely, and the fact that dark angels are after makes me really happy.
Marines have more than enough kits almost all in plastic right now, I am glad they decided to update the older kits that were showing their age and not compatible with the new line they are releasing. The little clam packs of upgrades are great for converters, for 13 bucks you can make a range of special characters. I think this is the way forward, instead of needing to make all the characters in plastic just give us the bits we need this way. It's way cheaper for us and them. Win win. I pray for a deathwatch supplement soon, I can't wait to see the plastic kit for that.
When I first saw that all Imperium armies were battle brothers in 7th, I was thrilled. But that's slowly changed to annoyance over the months- I don't like the fact that my army has to be considered against the enire Imperium for balance. I don't like how "what if drop pods?!" comes up with every new human unit. Space Marines are supposed to be an utterly independent fighting force, 1000 men against the universe. Loads of people like to fluff out their unique homebrew chapters- how many people like to homebrew a librarian, a combat tactical squad, and 3 centurions seconded to a grey knight brotherhood in the service of an inquisitor allied to the mechanicum?
The sadthing is that is actually kind of fluffy. A small number of space marines assisting the Ordo Malleus and grey Knights defend a Forge World with the native mechanicum elements...
kb_lock wrote: Anyone know how much these whw command tanks cost?
Leth wrote: I think the main thing is that people forget that marines are members of the imperium and should be looked at as such. Each branch of the imperium has something they specialize in, and so when brought together as a whole they are able to trump he Xenos powers. This versatility is a huge strength to take advantage of and think about our strategy in that context. With one per unit USRs being the most powerful abilities in the game as the imperium we have the largest range of ICs and the like to get those USRs.
Marines have a great overall stat line. They pay a small price for a lot of the gear they come basic with, Krak and frag grenades are awesome, they don't have to buy a sergeant upgrade because leadership is not as big of a deal. They just need a little something that takes hem away from their jack of all trades nature towards something more specialized, that is where the chapter tactics kicks in. They lend themselves to completely different army builds, on top of that we will have to see how the chapter tactics further interact with the for,action benefits and other such things. I am betting that this will increase the variety of marine builds that will be able to hold their own.
I am looking forward to marines because most tournaments are getting better terrain and moving away from the gun line style missions working in mobility and other aspects. No one does MSU like marines(outside of eldar jet bikes, but I got an ignore cover scorpius for them lol). While I am perfectly open to the idea that it will be weak and a letdown I find that highly unlikely, and the fact that dark angels are after makes me really happy.
Marines have more than enough kits almost all in plastic right now, I am glad they decided to update the older kits that were showing their age and not compatible with the new line they are releasing. The little clam packs of upgrades are great for converters, for 13 bucks you can make a range of special characters. I think this is the way forward, instead of needing to make all the characters in plastic just give us the bits we need this way. It's way cheaper for us and them. Win win. I pray for a deathwatch supplement soon, I can't wait to see the plastic kit for that.
When I first saw that all Imperium armies were battle brothers in 7th, I was thrilled. But that's slowly changed to annoyance over the months- I don't like the fact that my army has to be considered against the enire Imperium for balance. I don't like how "what if drop pods?!" comes up with every new human unit. Space Marines are supposed to be an utterly independent fighting force, 1000 men against the universe. Loads of people like to fluff out their unique homebrew chapters- how many people like to homebrew a librarian, a combat tactical squad, and 3 centurions seconded to a grey knight brotherhood in the service of an inquisitor allied to the mechanicum?
All the exalts. Highly agreed. Apparently I have thousands of dollars of admech, knights, AM, sisters, and other marine chapters hidden somewhere in my house along with my BA. At least according to the internet I do. I can't find them though. Even looked under the couch.
I shall continue to play the imperium's finest taxi service as a standalone army!
No double special weapons for tacticals.
No CCW (even as a pay-for option).
No meaningful cost reductions.
No improvement to the Assault Squads, your window to the Land of Bland.
Just some formation rules that would seem cheesey in a vacuum but pale next to the recent fondue-a-go-go that are various xeno codices.
Oh, and the devastators with grav, whoopdie doo.
Just LOL@u if you still play SM. In fact, LOL@u if you still play, period.
No double special weapons for tacticals.
No CCW (even as a pay-for option).
No meaningful cost reductions.
No improvement to the Assault Squads, your window to the Land of Bland.
Just some formation rules that would seem cheesey in a vacuum but pale next to the recent fondue-a-go-go that are various xeno codices.
Oh, and the devastators with grav, whoopdie doo.
Just LOL@u if you still play SM. In fact, LOL@u if you still play, period.
Nice new models though.
Sorry, you are in the wrong thread, This is about Space Marines. You are looking for Chaos Space Marines....
No double special weapons for tacticals.
No CCW (even as a pay-for option).
No meaningful cost reductions.
No improvement to the Assault Squads, your window to the Land of Bland.
Just some formation rules that would seem cheesey in a vacuum but pale next to the recent fondue-a-go-go that are various xeno codices.
Oh, and the devastators with grav, whoopdie doo.
Just LOL@u if you still play SM. In fact, LOL@u if you still play, period.
Nice new models though.
Sorry, you are in the wrong thread, This is about Space Marines. You are looking for Chaos Space Marines....
Nah,I'm just waiting for him to tell us to all play warmahordes/infinity/malifaux/bolt action.
Sweet... Devastators come as 3 packed sprues. And it looks like a bazillion heads are included hahaha.
I spy 2 MK7 (aquilla) fronts, 2 Mk6 (cabled) fronts, and cabled-looking-something-odd on the bottom right that looks like kinda cool. The legs look to have a wide stance, and the greaves are pimpin'. Those Grav Cannons look awesome. You sure get a lot of stuff on the sprues, I must say.
Also, I spy a web bundle with 3 land raiders (2 crusader/redeemer, 1 basic). It's been so long since I built one, though I have 2 BNIB crusader/redeemer kits :X Question because I am lazy: can you build the basic land raider using the crusader/redeemer kit?
It all seems to be poitning towards a few minor cosmetic changes (good and bad) and some formations which may well be good. So better than the Dark Eldar one and abut the same as Blood Angels and Guard - nowhere near as good as Necrons and of course three millin miles behind the Eldar.
Maybe they will add something powerful via Whiet Dwarf - like the recent Ad Mech formation that gives all units free upgrades adn ignores gets hot.......
It is bizare when you have the Eldar Codex where Everything got better and/or dropped in points and got cool formations and thats where it stops making sense.......
to those who says - oh it can't invalidate older Codexes - since when has GW cared about that?
lord_blackfang wrote: That gakky cartoon line art has been in the Necron and Eldar books as well. Pages and pages and pages of it.
I mean on the one hand, they're just used to show colour schemes/heraldry etc and fulfil that purpose fine. On the other hand, FW do similar things, but they look like this...
SickSix wrote: Wow, we sure are getting our 'moneys worth' these days! Who did that artwork? one of their kids on MS paint?
As a reward for writing the codex in an afternoon, the Design team got to break out the crayons and color some marine pages. Just for fun GW put them in the book too.
Uhm, they are color plates, basically technical drawings to help you paint a specific color scheme.
SickSix wrote: Wow, we sure are getting our 'moneys worth' these days! Who did that artwork? one of their kids on MS paint?
As a reward for writing the codex in an afternoon, the Design team got to break out the crayons and color some marine pages. Just for fun GW put them in the book too.
Uhm, they are color plates, basically technical drawings to help you paint a specific color scheme.
They're also in every codex now. AdMech, Eldar, Necron, etc.
From the standpoint of many other factions, I think it's no big deal. But for the space marines, having technical drawings (instead of paintings) is not a bad thing. If you want to be fully codex-compliant, the heraldry, iconography, squad markings and all that are pretty complicated in terms of what's allowed, what's not, and how specific successor chapters deviate.
Not that you have to do any of that, and most players just plain don't care, but I think it's pretty neat.
Crazyterran wrote: You guys are complaining that the GW stuff isn't as high quality as the Forge World stuff?
... Where have you been for the last...oh, I don't know... Forever?
I'm showing a comparison of the same kind of thing from the same company, to show how poor they are even for GW normally. Yes FW is generally better, but GW stuff used to be relatively comparable art wise. The FW ones make these look laughable though. The gap in quality is much bigger here than it used to be. Is that an acceptable comment for you? Just because there's always been a bit of a gap, widening the gap isn't okay.
I think it's there way of bringing about the next generation of gamers. We know they've been marketing to the younger crowd over the years, so now we are getting more Pokemon-esque artwork to boot. I dislike it, especially if you flip a page ant then see really nice artwork as the forgeworld pics show. It just screams of no cohesive design for the book.
SickSix wrote: My gawd you GW apologists are insufferable! You won't even acknowledge one of the most obvious declines in art we have ever seen!
So if they drew the damn things in crayon would you still say 'Well it serves the purpose of showing you what colors they are supposed to be.' ?
This is so pathetic. Just because they screwed other factions with the same crap artwork, doesn't mean it's okay to keep doing it!
Eh, it is a down grade from the sixth edition book, I agree.
But complaining it's not Forge World quality is just silly, considering it has never been on the same quality as Forge World.
Get your panties unbunched, boy!
It's a decline from previous codexes! It's not even the same quality from their own previous books. It's just hilarious, it's like a bunch of abused puppies, doesn't matter how much their master beats them, y'all will keep licking his hand.
SickSix wrote: My gawd you GW apologists are insufferable! You won't even acknowledge one of the most obvious declines in art we have ever seen!
So if they drew the damn things in crayon would you still say 'Well it serves the purpose of showing you what colors they are supposed to be.' ?
This is so pathetic. Just because they screwed other factions with the same crap artwork, doesn't mean it's okay to keep doing it!
Eh, it is a down grade from the sixth edition book, I agree.
But complaining it's not Forge World quality is just silly, considering it has never been on the same quality as Forge World.
Get your panties unbunched, boy!
It's a decline from previous codexes! It's not even the same quality from their own previous books. It's just hilarious, it's like a bunch of abused puppies, doesn't matter how much their master beats them, y'all will keep licking his hand.
So instead you are going to whine to a bunch of people who are not games workshop, and insult anyone who disagrees with you?
Guess one side is puppies, the other side are toddlers.
Nobody is going to argue that it is a downgrade in that regard. However, the drawings and colourings of the different chapter marines and iconography is so low down on the cool stuff in the book (compared to the full art pages, fluff, and rules) that nobody is going to really care in comparison.
It's not really artwork though is it. Some of the artwork in the preview I downloaded is damn fine, and as good as anything in the 6th edition codex. The idea, that these very basic technical drawings, designed as a guide, somehow show a decline in quality is nonsense.
For a start very similar technical drawings are already present in the 6th edition codex.
This place can be such a bloody moan fest sometimes, some people clearly have a massive axe to grind. I'm not being an apologist, or a fanboy, in fact I think it's crazy a new dex is out so soon. But I'm not going to make paper thin arguments about "artwork decline" in order to satiate a nerd rage about it.
Personally I dont get the negative oppinions on the "artwork".
The simplified displays of each chapters heraldry is functional and easily accesable, but should not be mistaken for the artwork.
I admit though, the first time I noticed it, in the DE codex, I was quite annoyed they used the same templates over and over, page after page. instead of actual artwork.
I have not seen any new artwork for this codex yet, but actually think the art of the last couple of codexes has been really great pieces that make the 7th edition codexes the most beautiful yet.
Fayric wrote: Personally I dont get the negative oppinions on the "artwork".
The simplified displays of each chapters heraldry is functional and easily accesable, but should not be mistaken for the artwork.
^My thoughts exactly. Forge World have something similar, but I've just looked through their list of designers, and they appear to have 7 people working in graphics and illustrations - given the rate of FW book releases, it's hardly surprising that there's such a difference in the quality of the heraldry and iconography!
Translation: I'm SO DARN TOOTIN' MAD I FORGOT HOW TO ENGLISH! ARGH! Must use pictures to articulate my thoughts! GUUUUHHH!! To the knowyoumeme.com-mobile!!
Nocturnus wrote:
Sorry, you are in the wrong thread, This is about Space Marines. You are looking for Chaos Space Marines....
Sorry, you are in the wrong forum altogether. Blind praise of every way that GW has found to crap on Space Marines likely belongs on BnC.
Crazyterran wrote:Nah,I'm just waiting for him to tell us to all play warmahordes/infinity/malifaux/bolt action.
Well, don't let me stop you (I guess). No harm in waiting I suppose.
Yeah, on the subject of N&R, do we have any actual rules rumours/leaks for anything more than the basic tactical/assault squads? I'd like to know more about honour guard before I assemble the ones I have lying around.
I'm trying to figure out what the big pull of buying this new Space Marine book is. It's one of the highest priced books at $58, re-done now in two years...but I don't see that much new content. I imagine there will be new formations to come about soon, which will make up the majority of the updated content, but Space Marines haven't changed drastically in many years. The previous codex at least had centurions, what does this one have?
I also see the LE copies are up for sale at $165...well, at least no one can say "I didn't know this would happen!" when they get invalidated in two years (seeing as thay happened to the last whole bunch). I'm not really a fan of the "color-your-own-space-marine" art (the same goes for this in all of the other books), it feels like an attempt to just up the page count. But with the Dark Eldar book, there were descriptions of each of the factions to go with the art- are these Space Marine ones going to just be blank page and a guy on each one?
I'm willing to be open to reinterpretation on these things, but as it stands the new codex seems like an attempt to maintain the subscription status of playing 40k.
Yeah, for me it just comes down to dusting off a few models or assemble a few key ones so no big deal for the old SM player.
The online army painter artwork looks more as filler to me that happens to show faction paint jobs.
I wonder if they will release the line-art so we can try stuff out in MSPaint (color fill ho!)?
The mechanicus codex's were overflowing with them.
The dev grav guns remind me a bit of noise marine weapons: the wandering around and shooting is helpful, the points cost, not so much.
Will grav guns on bikes still be preferred? We shall see.
I too wanted to try out this drop pod taxi service I keep seeing but never got to use. I could see tucking Skitarii into them and telling them not to get squished on entry.
I have a sneaking suspicion BT fluff will be no librarians again, some anti psionics buff would be nice.
"Soon" and my frantic army touch-up shall commence.
<edit> Yeah the bigger bases in the mix will look weird in my stuff, anywhere to get the bigger bases in bulk? Exploring options here: I could go big for Dev for now, the rest can wait.
Gosh darn auto correct was brutal this time so many funny edits "gravy-guns" indeed.
-Shrike- wrote:Yeah, on the subject of N&R, do we have any actual rules rumours/leaks for anything more than the basic tactical/assault squads? I'd like to know more about honour guard before I assemble the ones I have lying around.
I’m with you waiting with baited breath. I’m picking out parts and cleaning mold lines, sticky-tacking stuff together for now. Come Saturday, or when we get solid leaks, the glue will come out to finalize things.
pities2004 wrote:If we can stop arguing about pretty pointless stuff, I was told that space marines are all going to be moving to 32mm is this true?
The AM box only came with the new bases, for what that’s worth.
Accolade wrote: I'm trying to figure out what the big pull of buying this new Space Marine book is. It's one of the highest priced books at $58, re-done now in two years...but I don't see that much new content. I imagine there will be new formations to come about soon, which will make up the majority of the updated content, but Space Marines haven't changed drastically in many years. The previous codex at least had centurions, what does this one have?
All I know is my eyes just popped when I saw that even the ebook version is $50. And I'm sure most of the content will be copy-pasta from the previous book.
Carnage43 wrote: That's the core of the issue though....you CANNOT change bolt and chain weapons...or lascannons or plasma guns, they are literally in a dozen books. You can't change them without either making them something lame like "Astates bolter" and "chainsword mkII" or completely upsetting the balance of the game. I mean, imagine sister of battle with rending bolters.
I can imagine that. Are you even implying Sisters, with bolters, would be OP? Really? Those models with a statline full of 3's, using a S4 AP5 Rapid fire 24" weapon, would be OP if they got rending?
Are we playing the same game?
Currently, Sisters with bolters are ablative wounds for the special weapons.
I have to say that even though I can appreciate the idea of basic line art for symbols, iconography, etc. the execution here is very poor and looks very jarring compared to the rest of the book.
For reference, here's one of the equivalent pages from the 2003 Daemonhunters codex:
Spoiler:
Still basic and simple, but the outline is a slightly photoshopped model picture, which gives a bit of texture and the whole thing just looks a bit more professional.
At least this time I won't have to pay extra for the iBook version, just because they throw in the force requisition tool.
Carnage43 wrote: That's the core of the issue though....you CANNOT change bolt and chain weapons...or lascannons or plasma guns, they are literally in a dozen books. You can't change them without either making them something lame like "Astates bolter" and "chainsword mkII" or completely upsetting the balance of the game. I mean, imagine sister of battle with rending bolters.
I can imagine that. Are you even implying Sisters, with bolters, would be OP? Really? Those models with a statline full of 3's, using a S4 AP5 Rapid fire 24" weapon, would be OP if they got rending?
Are we playing the same game?
Currently, Sisters with bolters are ablative wounds for the special weapons.
Carnage43 wrote: That's the core of the issue though....you CANNOT change bolt and chain weapons...or lascannons or plasma guns, they are literally in a dozen books. You can't change them without either making them something lame like "Astates bolter" and "chainsword mkII" or completely upsetting the balance of the game. I mean, imagine sister of battle with rending bolters.
I can imagine that. Are you even implying Sisters, with bolters, would be OP? Really? Those models with a statline full of 3's, using a S4 AP5 Rapid fire 24" weapon, would be OP if they got rending?
Are we playing the same game?
Currently, Sisters with bolters are ablative wounds for the special weapons.
Why are you still talking about Sisters?
To be fair it was brought up as a reason why you could not change bolters in the new SM Codex (hint read the actual bbit he is quoting!)-
Its not a very good argument considering that GW don't care about what has gone before or constistancy - if they wanted t change them they would and the old Codexes that use bolters - and that also includes Inqusiiton would just have the old stats......unless House ruled.
Do we think the new SM Command vehicles will be in the Codex?
I doubt the Command Tanks will be in there. We would have probably have seen them on the website by now. If they are, hopefully we will get Grav Razorbacks since the turret fits.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I doubt the Command Tanks will be in there. We would have probably have seen them on the website by now. If they are, hopefully we will get Grav Razorbacks since the turret fits.
yawn - I guess they have to keep trying to retcon"new" stuff in to sell stuff to those who have all the stuff for their own Chapters - or they could actually do something for Chapters other than the "special needs" ones that would work for various successors.......or a propoer sniper squad /stealth for the Chapters who actually use them.
Just hope anything they do do looks better than the Centurions (shudder) or the flyers.
SickSix wrote: My gawd you GW apologists are insufferable! You won't even acknowledge one of the most obvious declines in art we have ever seen!
So if they drew the damn things in crayon would you still say 'Well it serves the purpose of showing you what colors they are supposed to be.' ?
This is so pathetic. Just because they screwed other factions with the same crap artwork, doesn't mean it's okay to keep doing it!
Eh, it is a down grade from the sixth edition book, I agree.
But complaining it's not Forge World quality is just silly, considering it has never been on the same quality as Forge World.
Get your panties unbunched, boy!
It's a decline from previous codexes! It's not even the same quality from their own previous books. It's just hilarious, it's like a bunch of abused puppies, doesn't matter how much their master beats them, y'all will keep licking his hand.
Olgerth Istaarn wrote:The GW apologists truly provide endless entertainment. Because EVERYTHING IS AWESOME.
Jesus Christ you people are insufferable. Everyone who doesn't agree with your narrow, hilariously hyperbolic GW hate is an "apologist". No one has said that the color plates are awesome. People have simply pointed out that they don't care because they are technical drawings and don't need to look amazing. People like IAmAGeek or Jadenim offer reasonable opinions to the contrary without being obtuse, and that's great and fosters discussion, which is the purpose of dakka. Then you to storm in and start raging like whining five-year olds who can't understand that different people have different opinions. In your narrow world view, everyone is either a raging lunatic fanboy or a righteous crusader against the GW menace.
Mymearan wrote: Jesus Christ you people are insufferable. Everyone who doesn't agree with your narrow, hilariously hyperbolic GW hate is an "apologist". No one has said that the color plates are awesome. People have simply pointed out that they don't care because they are technical drawings and don't need to look amazing. People like IAmAGeek offer reasonable opinions to the contrary without being obtuse, and then you to storm and start raging like whining five-year olds who can't understand that different people have different opinions. In your narrow world view, everyone is either a raging lunatic fanboy or a righteous crusader against the GW menace.
Doesn't work for Americans. It's either "us" or "them" pretty much all the time - there's no room for anything in between.
I'm looking forward to my 'dex copy, should arrive on saturday - and gave me the opportunity to order a blister of Crusaders for my Inq detachment, couldn't find them anywhere else but GW.
Mymearan wrote: Jesus Christ you people are insufferable. Everyone who doesn't agree with your narrow, hilariously hyperbolic GW hate is an "apologist". No one has said that the color plates are awesome. People have simply pointed out that they don't care because they are technical drawings and don't need to look amazing. People like IAmAGeek offer reasonable opinions to the contrary without being obtuse, and then you to storm and start raging like whining five-year olds who can't understand that different people have different opinions. In your narrow world view, everyone is either a raging lunatic fanboy or a righteous crusader against the GW menace.
Doesn't work for Americans. It's either "us" or "them" pretty much all the time - there's no room for anything in between.
I'm looking forward to my 'dex copy, should arrive on saturday - and gave me the opportunity to order a blister of Crusaders for my Inq detachment, couldn't find them anywhere else but GW.
Wow, really? You're going to broad-stroke all Americans into one category. Definitely not hypocritical, definitely not the same thing the original offending poster was doing.
Jesus Christ you people are insufferable. Everyone who doesn't agree with your narrow, hilariously hyperbolic GW hate is an "apologist". No one has said that the color plates are awesome. People have simply pointed out that they don't care because they are technical drawings and don't need to look amazing. People like IAmAGeek or Jadenim offer reasonable opinions to the contrary without being obtuse, and that's great and fosters discussion, which is the purpose of dakka. Then you to storm in and start raging like whining five-year olds who can't understand that different people have different opinions. In your narrow world view, everyone is either a raging lunatic fanboy or a righteous crusader against the GW menace.
Thanks for not lumping me in with that haha, I definitely wasn't trying to be obtuse. If you're happy with the drawings that's fine, as a guide for colour schemes they definitely serve their purpose. I was just pointing out there's much nicer ways it could've been done, using an example that's really from the same company.
Jesus Christ you people are insufferable. Everyone who doesn't agree with your narrow, hilariously hyperbolic GW hate is an "apologist". No one has said that the color plates are awesome. People have simply pointed out that they don't care because they are technical drawings and don't need to look amazing. People like IAmAGeek or Jadenim offer reasonable opinions to the contrary without being obtuse, and that's great and fosters discussion, which is the purpose of dakka. Then you to storm in and start raging like whining five-year olds who can't understand that different people have different opinions. In your narrow world view, everyone is either a raging lunatic fanboy or a righteous crusader against the GW menace.
Thanks for not lumping me in with that haha, I definitely wasn't trying to be obtuse. If you're happy with the drawings that's fine, as a guide for colour schemes they definitely serve their purpose. I was just pointing out there's much nicer ways it could've been done, using an example that's really from the same company.
Which is great and I for one appreciate, and yes I agree that the Forgeworld ones are much nicer, and if I could choose I would take those. It's no secret that I tend to have a positive outlook on GW, you and many others many times a negative one, which like I said is completely fine. What I find infuriating is people who categorize everyone "other side" as extremists (and yes that comment about Americans falls into that category, that doesn't help anyone) and won't listen to or respond to arguments. Obviously I'm far from perfect in this regard myself and sometime fall into that trap, but I try to be aware of it.
Very sorry for the tangent, mods you can remove this post and my above rant if its too much.
I have to say I loved all of the 6th edition codex cover art (esp. the dark angels book!). I have played dark angels since the end of 2nd/beginning of third, grey knights since their daemonhunter creation, chaos since 4th, and daemons since their first codex. I also started a carcharodon museum quality display army since the badab books (thank god I got two sets of transfer sheets before they killed those).
However I have always had a love for the Black Templar army... their colors, fluff, etc, is just plain gorgeous. I had purchased the 6th edition successor codex which was very proud of (and bears a Templar on the front!). I also amassed a large amount of templar bits and finally started my black Templar army a week ago to the doom that they were not going to be in the codex.
Well, I am glad to see they are in the codex, but their codex is the only one with art I will complain about. The centurion on the back = cool, the orange page edges = cool, the naked ultramarine of the front... wtfGW!
GW definitely could have done a better job here... how about the walking crimson fist dude from the 4th edition core rule book? Or Grimaldus?
Rule One is Be Polite. Stop calling each other aplogists and haters and trolls, etc. None of that qualifies as a relevant part of discussion and it is against our rules. Keep the argument about points rather than people. Thanks.
So far nothing I've seen leaked has made a convincing case for buying the new book. I'm not going to buy the new models, so I don't need rules for Eviscerators or Grav on Devs. The formations don't seem very interesting as of yet. Maybe something cool will be revealed this week. Otherwise $58 for a few minor changes to the codex seems quite steep.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I doubt the Command Tanks will be in there. We would have probably have seen them on the website by now. If they are, hopefully we will get Grav Razorbacks since the turret fits.
Especially as both are basically Forgeworld units, and GW said it would stop stealing forgeworld units for the codex. Thought the Landraider looked very different than the FW version, the rhino is still a Damocles HQ rhino with extra dish.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I doubt the Command Tanks will be in there. We would have probably have seen them on the website by now. If they are, hopefully we will get Grav Razorbacks since the turret fits.
I was very much hoping for something to boost up the Tacticals, Assaults, Tac Termis and Dreads. As those are my favourite SM units. I'm still remaining hopeful there is something we havent seen to change up or boost these guys until I can read the new book however.
I will be buying the new Dex (already pre ordered it) as my FLGS uses current rules for all so if I want to play SM I need it, simple as that.
And regardless of if they are "playable" I'll still try with my preferred SM units.
Kirasu wrote: Hm,, New assault squad is more points due to loss of free drop pod and new dev kit has 40pt grav cannons? Is GW trying to make the new kits invalid?
Very confusing way to boost a new SM book but then again GW simply refuses to be creative with SMs.
New units are always a good test for the competence of rule writers, and GW ones fail more often than they succeed. It's only when they have 15+ years of experience with an unit, that they get it approximately right and sometimes not even then (Terminators).
So does this mean that for the next 2 years at least, tournaments will be won by some combination of webway portal wraith eldar or skitarii drop pod alpha strikers? Because I have to say I am not a fan of 2 factions being used as a cheap taxi service in order to boost 2 already powerful armies.
Orock wrote: So does this mean that for the next 2 years at least, tournaments will be won by some combination of webway portal wraith eldar or skitarii drop pod alpha strikers? Because I have to say I am not a fan of 2 factions being used as a cheap taxi service in order to boost 2 already powerful armies.
This is still not a balance whine thread, especially when we have no confirmation of rules outside 2 or 3 units. Stop.
It'll be interesting to see how the Gladius is handled. I'd love to take Tacticals again, and assuming Grav Cannons aren't ridiculous I would have a reason to run Tacticals in pods again.
That said, I was primarily a Carcharodon runner, so they'd need a buff pretty significant.
Templars should never have had their own book anyway, well neither should any of the chapters if we're getting down to it, but my point is that we already had that theme with dark angels
Templars: knights, non codex organisation, shady dealings with the imperium at large
Angels: knights, non codex organisation, shady dealings with the imperium at large
They are similar enough that I happily used models from the Templars with little work and used them in my dark angels, with the advent of supplements I'd happily see both rolled into codex marines and a supplement for both, I'd happily still see a supplement for Templars, but not a stand alone codex.
Kirasu wrote: Hm,, New assault squad is more points due to loss of free drop pod and new dev kit has 40pt grav cannons? Is GW trying to make the new kits invalid?
Very confusing way to boost a new SM book but then again GW simply refuses to be creative with SMs.
I must have missed it -- where were the point costs for the new grav cannons?
Kirasu wrote: Hm,, New assault squad is more points due to loss of free drop pod and new dev kit has 40pt grav cannons? Is GW trying to make the new kits invalid?
Very confusing way to boost a new SM book but then again GW simply refuses to be creative with SMs.
I must have missed it -- where were the point costs for the new grav cannons?
No where yet, but someone who saw the book reported them as "nearly double what a lascannon costs". Lascannons are 20 at the moment, so that would put them at 35-40. Considering lascannons USED to cost 35, I don't think GW has an issue pricing them there.
SickSix wrote: Well least there is no size restriction on the infantry that can go in the drop pod in its own rules. So that rumor/speculation is busted.
Downside is that it's another source for Free Ride lists.
I'm sure the next edition that comes out in three months or so will take away dedicated transports for battle brothers. And then 9th will bring it back.
Easier fix:
Drop Pods only should have been available as Dedicated Transports.
the problem isnt that Drop Pods should only be for marines, the problem is that drop pods are entirely too good.
They complete circumvent all the problems with DS reserves. They come down first turn, they have no risk, and they let you move after landing.
Kirasu wrote: Hm,, New assault squad is more points due to loss of free drop pod and new dev kit has 40pt grav cannons? Is GW trying to make the new kits invalid?
Very confusing way to boost a new SM book but then again GW simply refuses to be creative with SMs.
I must have missed it -- where were the point costs for the new grav cannons?
There was a rumor they were double that of a lascannon.
I think that GW basically believe their own fluff. So they are not too worried about inadvertently making say Eldar Jetbikes with scatterlasers overpowered, because obviously Marines can beat them easily, like in the novels.
Terminators though? Wow, better make those guys really expensive, because Marines are already utterly deadly, and whoa, if we're not careful we might unbalance the entire game by making a 2+ armour save too common!
Olgerth Istaarn wrote: The GW apologists truly provide endless entertainment. Because EVERYTHING IS AWESOME.
If we could all try to avoid labelling people with cute little tags for the heinous offense of having a different opinion to our own, that would be great .
Yes, the base "expander" I had seen before, it is an option, I feel pointless since if the base is done it will be irritating to paint up to the rest of the base.
I think the name calling happens when we run out of logical arguments and with what we have seen so far it is "pretty much the same as before". Makes for little in exciting conversation.
I guess I will wait and see if "my" codex makes BT new and shiny or a unhappy shelving of the army.
Formosa wrote: Templars should never have had their own book anyway, well neither should any of the chapters if we're getting down to it, but my point is that we already had that theme with dark angels
Templars: knights, non codex organisation, shady dealings with the imperium at large
Angels: knights, non codex organisation, shady dealings with the imperium at large
They are similar enough that I happily used models from the Templars with little work and used them in my dark angels, with the advent of supplements I'd happily see both rolled into codex marines and a supplement for both, I'd happily still see a supplement for Templars, but not a stand alone codex.
Agreed - its a missed opportunity.
Stand alone Codexes means loads of crappy "new" and "themed" units - hate the majority of them.....
but at least its not a cheesedex like the Eldar one.
Yes, apologies. I let silly 'feelings' get the best of me. If you can't counter the message, don't attack the messenger. I'll do better.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion (no matter how wrong it is )
On topic: I will NOT be rebasing anything. That is just too much. Honestly have we heard anything rules wise that really changes anything? I mean it still sounds like tactical marines are just as 'blah' as before.
Has there been any information regarding Tactical Squad getting reboxed with 32mm bases? Or do I need to throw in some seperat once in my next order of tacs?
Formosa wrote: Templars should never have had their own book anyway, well neither should any of the chapters if we're getting down to it, but my point is that we already had that theme with dark angels
Templars: knights, non codex organisation, shady dealings with the imperium at large
Angels: knights, non codex organisation, shady dealings with the imperium at large
They are similar enough that I happily used models from the Templars with little work and used them in my dark angels, with the advent of supplements I'd happily see both rolled into codex marines and a supplement for both, I'd happily still see a supplement for Templars, but not a stand alone codex.
Actually, the Templars are heavily based around the Teutonic Knights, while the Dark Angels play much into the fictional, conspiracy-laced imagery of the Knights Templar. They're very much two entirely different animals, and they definitely play much, much differently on the table.
Formosa wrote: Templars should never have had their own book anyway, well neither should any of the chapters if we're getting down to it, but my point is that we already had that theme with dark angels
Templars: knights, non codex organisation, shady dealings with the imperium at large
Angels: knights, non codex organisation, shady dealings with the imperium at large
They are similar enough that I happily used models from the Templars with little work and used them in my dark angels, with the advent of supplements I'd happily see both rolled into codex marines and a supplement for both, I'd happily still see a supplement for Templars, but not a stand alone codex.
At one point, after Codex Armageddon came out, Templars were the most popular Marine chapter being played, which is why they got their own book and upgrades etc.
The book was very powerful, winning tournaments up until it was nerfed by FAQ's and then finally replaced.
I'm really hoping that there are some awesome chapter specific detachments. Like something to make Black Templar Crusader squads, and to make them more durable. Would be excellent.
Kirasu wrote: Hm,, New assault squad is more points due to loss of free drop pod and new dev kit has 40pt grav cannons?
I must have missed it -- where were the point costs for the new grav cannons?
There was a rumor they were double that of a lascannon.
Oh, I see. I read that in a different way. I had seen somewhere that Devastators were getting free Heavy Bolters (10 points). That would make Lascannons a 10 point upgrade, and Grav Cannons a 20 point upgrade (which would make them awesome).
But I dunno, I guess we'll see soon
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: Have all the new pics been gathered up somewhere convenient?
Faeit and BoLS both have lots of pics, but they're spread out a little in a couple of threads. There aren't any good leaks, really, though.
I just want to take a second to thank the Dakka gods for the ignore function. Less than 100 posts and already making lots of friends...
Is it flame baiting when you put someone on your ignore list and then post snarky posts about them? Sounds about right and defeats the purpose of putting them there in the first place.
warboss wrote: Is it flame baiting when you put someone on your ignore list and then post snarky posts about them? Sounds about right and defeats the purpose of putting them there in the first place.
IDK, it's a little contradictory, isn't it? It's rude, but it's pretty hard to read it as baiting someone to respond since presumably the poster won't see the response. I guess it's a more public rejection of someone.
warboss wrote: Is it flame baiting when you put someone on your ignore list and then post snarky posts about them? Sounds about right and defeats the purpose of putting them there in the first place.
IDK, it's a little contradictory, isn't it? It's rude, but it's pretty hard to read it as baiting someone to respond since presumably the poster won't see the response. I guess it's a more public rejection of someone.
It's most definitely a form of trolling, since it's posting for no other reason than to aggravate someone.
Honestly, I'd like to see most, if not all the marines rolled into one book. SW and angels (dark or blood flavors) included.
If this book doesn't have price alterations or rules alterations to anything in my lists, I probably won't buy it.
@Jimsolo - I believe that the chances of no substantial changes is zero.
The lack of leaks this go-around doesn't mean that there aren't significant changes. IMO, Terminators will get some type of adjustment, though probably not enough to make them good (though, with strike force ultra, there could be some superb eye-popping buff), Dreadnoughts will get adjustments that will probably make them usable, there will be squad bonuses for vehicles that will at least seem at first glance totally overpowered, and there will be some formations that cost a brick ton of points but give insane bonuses.
You know, stuff that's par for the course for Games Workshop 2015.
Also, I think that the Core-Auxiliary-Command detachment will be more flexible than a proper demi-company (though you will be able to take a demi-company) -- in order, for example, to support a White Scars Gladius detatchment.
In 3 days, instead of complaining how C:SM is a waste of money and gives nothing new, people will be complaining how C:SM is overpowered and cheesy.
You know, par for the course Remember the 50 pages of "Codex: Eldar Craftworlds is a waste of money! Just a reprint of 6e Eldar -- not gonna buy it!"? Oh how distant that memory now seems.
Yeah, I'm hopeful the new book will pack some punch. There are some formations that have given an insane amount of free stuff, and just about anything's at least reasonably legit if it's cheap enough.
I mean, it would be awesome if you didn't need to follow some crazy set of guidelines to make an option useful, but I'd rather crazy pigeonholing requirements over just plain bad.
Talys wrote: @Jimsolo - I believe that the chances of no substantial changes is zero.
The lack of leaks this go-around doesn't mean that there aren't significant changes. IMO, Terminators will get some type of adjustment, though probably not enough to make them good (though, with strike force ultra, there could be some superb eye-popping buff), Dreadnoughts will get adjustments that will probably make them usable, there will be squad bonuses for vehicles that will at least seem at first glance totally overpowered, and there will be some formations that cost a brick ton of points but give insane bonuses.
You know, stuff that's par for the course for Games Workshop 2015.
Also, I think that the Core-Auxiliary-Command detachment will be more flexible than a proper demi-company (though you will be able to take a demi-company) -- in order, for example, to support a White Scars Gladius detatchment.
In 3 days, instead of complaining how C:SM is a waste of money and gives nothing new, people will be complaining how C:SM is overpowered and cheesy.
You know, par for the course Remember the 50 pages of "Codex: Eldar Craftworlds is a waste of money! Just a reprint of 6e Eldar -- not gonna buy it!"? Oh how distant that memory now seems.
We are bound to get more leaks over the next week as stores get their stock in. Hopefully the next few days will bear some juicy juicy fruit.
Talys wrote: @Jimsolo - I believe that the chances of no substantial changes is zero.
The lack of leaks this go-around doesn't mean that there aren't significant changes. IMO, Terminators will get some type of adjustment, though probably not enough to make them good (though, with strike force ultra, there could be some superb eye-popping buff), Dreadnoughts will get adjustments that will probably make them usable, there will be squad bonuses for vehicles that will at least seem at first glance totally overpowered, and there will be some formations that cost a brick ton of points but give insane bonuses.
You know, stuff that's par for the course for Games Workshop 2015.
Also, I think that the Core-Auxiliary-Command detachment will be more flexible than a proper demi-company (though you will be able to take a demi-company) -- in order, for example, to support a White Scars Gladius detatchment.
In 3 days, instead of complaining how C:SM is a waste of money and gives nothing new, people will be complaining how C:SM is overpowered and cheesy.
You know, par for the course Remember the 50 pages of "Codex: Eldar Craftworlds is a waste of money! Just a reprint of 6e Eldar -- not gonna buy it!"? Oh how distant that memory now seems.
Yea, all marines and most of the necrons have started coming on 32mm, I am sure the new tacticals kit will start being shipped with 32mm soon.
I can get them super cheap and I needed to rebase my armies anyway so that all my imperial forces will have a matching scheme. Making going to tournaments much easier when it comes to display boards.
Marines statlines are not going to change, outside of a few characters maybe. Points might change a little bit between books but other than that most of it is going to be the same, so yes it will be mostly "copy paste" just like almost all the books are. Marines didnt need any new units but it is nice that all the kits are in the same style now for easy swapping back and forth.
Its going to be the special rules where the real change will occur, in the formations, in the chapter relics. Until we see what those rules are we cant say anything really about what is going to change or stay the same. Also Dark Angels are supposed to either be the week after or two weeks after so right on the heels of marines. I think they will see a lot of change mainly in their points costs.
Talys wrote: Dreadnoughts will get adjustments that will probably make them usable
You know, stuff that's par for the course for Games Workshop 2015.
Tell that to Helbrutes, Deff Dreads, and Killa Kans. Dreads will stay the same.
Wasn't there a rumor a dozen'ish pages ago that Dreads are going up to 4 attacks? That would be a decent change and give them a bit more oomph vs. MC's.
Talys wrote: Dreadnoughts will get adjustments that will probably make them usable
You know, stuff that's par for the course for Games Workshop 2015.
Tell that to Helbrutes, Deff Dreads, and Killa Kans. Dreads will stay the same.
Wasn't there a rumor a dozen'ish pages ago that Dreads are going up to 4 attacks? That would be a decent change and give them a bit more oomph vs. MC's.
Ironclads and Venerables, yes.
So that should mean that normal dreads didn't change.
Ironclads went to 3 base, +1 for dual weapons.
Venerables are....4 base?
This bundle contains everything you need to field two Devastator Squads, the rhythm section of the storm from Codex: Space Marines, and a Tactical Squad - twenty miniatures, a frankly absurd selection of weapons, absolute dominance.
The Rythm section of the storm?
I find myself a bit confused about one of the complaints I'm hearing. I thought assault marines only got a free transport if they shed their jump packs. Now assault marines come without their jump packs and have to pay for them and their transport. So as far as I can figure a 10 man squad who takes no jump packs saves 30 pts and pays 35 for a rhino or drop pod. It sounds like a 10 man squad went from spending 0 for a transport to spending 5 for one. Yes I can see a 5 man squad paying 20 pts for fora transport but who's fielding 5 man squads instead of combat squading a 10 man squad. I'm sorry I can't get all up and ticked about about 5 point bump for about drop pod.
This bundle contains everything you need to field two Devastator Squads, the rhythm section of the storm from Codex: Space Marines, and a Tactical Squad - twenty miniatures, a frankly absurd selection of weapons, absolute dominance.
The Rythm section of the storm?
That combo is designed to make two full strength, 10-man Devastator squads. Nothing special about that.
This bundle contains everything you need to field two Devastator Squads, the rhythm section of the storm from Codex: Space Marines, and a Tactical Squad - twenty miniatures, a frankly absurd selection of weapons, absolute dominance.
The Rythm section of the storm?
I believe it's just a slightly off-putting metaphor. You know, comparing Space Marines to artists of war. I wouldn't read too far into it.
carabine wrote: I find myself a bit confused about one of the complaints I'm hearing. I thought assault marines only got a free transport if they shed their jump packs. Now assault marines come without their jump packs and have to pay for them and their transport. So as far as I can figure a 10 man squad who takes no jump packs saves 30 pts and pays 35 for a rhino or drop pod. It sounds like a 10 man squad went from spending 0 for a transport to spending 5 for one. Yes I can see a 5 man squad paying 20 pts for fora transport but who's fielding 5 man squads instead of combat squading a 10 man squad. I'm sorry I can't get all up and ticked about about 5 point bump for about drop pod.
Erm....everyone? The only real use of ASM for the last 2 editions or so has been as a special weapon delivery system. No jetpacks, free drop pod, 2 flamers and a combi-weapon if the serg was allowed to take one.
That loadout is now more expensive, probably to the point of uselessness.
This bundle contains everything you need to field two Devastator Squads, the rhythm section of the storm from Codex: Space Marines, and a Tactical Squad - twenty miniatures, a frankly absurd selection of weapons, absolute dominance.
The Rythm section of the storm?
That's kind of amusing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That grav cannon is sexy too.
carabine wrote: I find myself a bit confused about one of the complaints I'm hearing. I thought assault marines only got a free transport if they shed their jump packs. Now assault marines come without their jump packs and have to pay for them and their transport. So as far as I can figure a 10 man squad who takes no jump packs saves 30 pts and pays 35 for a rhino or drop pod. It sounds like a 10 man squad went from spending 0 for a transport to spending 5 for one. Yes I can see a 5 man squad paying 20 pts for fora transport but who's fielding 5 man squads instead of combat squading a 10 man squad. I'm sorry I can't get all up and ticked about about 5 point bump for about drop pod.
10 Man Assault Squads are really rare, anywhere near where I play. (Yes, Assault Squads period are rare). Most people use Assault Squads for special weapons, so a 5 man squad with 2 flamers or 2 meltas.
carabine wrote: I find myself a bit confused about one of the complaints I'm hearing. I thought assault marines only got a free transport if they shed their jump packs. Now assault marines come without their jump packs and have to pay for them and their transport. So as far as I can figure a 10 man squad who takes no jump packs saves 30 pts and pays 35 for a rhino or drop pod. It sounds like a 10 man squad went from spending 0 for a transport to spending 5 for one. Yes I can see a 5 man squad paying 20 pts for fora transport but who's fielding 5 man squads instead of combat squading a 10 man squad. I'm sorry I can't get all up and ticked about about 5 point bump for about drop pod.
Erm....everyone? The only real use of ASM for the last 2 editions or so has been as a special weapon delivery system. No jetpacks, free drop pod, 2 flamers and a combi-weapon if the serg was allowed to take one.
That loadout is now more expensive, probably to the point of uselessness.
I suppose we'll have to disagree on the "only real use" of ASM in the last 2 editions. In 5th I ran 2 assault squads in both vanilla and BA, a good charge makes a mockery of orks, tau, alot of eldar squads, tac marines and chaos marine squads. In 6th an assault squad led by a chaplain did much the same. Now in 7th I have yet to try vanilla assault but BA assault still wrecks even other marines on the charge. The issue so many seem to find is that they die before charging, am I the only one who understands how to use defilade tactics? Using basic cover and by giving your opponent more bad choices to shoot at assault squads will more than return their points.
Formosa wrote: Templars should never have had their own book anyway, well neither should any of the chapters if we're getting down to it, but my point is that we already had that theme with dark angels
Templars: knights, non codex organisation, shady dealings with the imperium at large
Angels: knights, non codex organisation, shady dealings with the imperium at large
They are similar enough that I happily used models from the Templars with little work and used them in my dark angels, with the advent of supplements I'd happily see both rolled into codex marines and a supplement for both, I'd happily still see a supplement for Templars, but not a stand alone codex.
Actually, the Templars are heavily based around the Teutonic Knights, while the Dark Angels play much into the fictional, conspiracy-laced imagery of the Knights Templar. They're very much two entirely different animals, and they definitely play much, much differently on the table.
Thats because you know the fluff, the fluff means nothing to someone looking at the shelf and seeing feudal knights and knights templar, all they will see is 2 slightly different types of knight, both with robes, tabards etc.
Thematically the niche was filled, there was no reason other than fleshing out a interesting paint scheme and name to have the codex exist at all, that's the long and short of it, they wanted a different chapter for centre stage on armageddon and decided to go with templars, as you said they proved popular due to the mini dexs being good, hence they got a codex, as that codex proved it would be quite easy to just make a supplement, and I'd welcome that, same for all the marines, one main and 4 supplements, keeps it clean.
This bundle contains everything you need to field two Devastator Squads, the rhythm section of the storm from Codex: Space Marines, and a Tactical Squad - twenty miniatures, a frankly absurd selection of weapons, absolute dominance.
The Rythm section of the storm?
That's kind of amusing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That grav cannon is sexy too.
This bundle contains everything you need to field two Devastator Squads, the rhythm section of the storm from Codex: Space Marines, and a Tactical Squad - twenty miniatures, a frankly absurd selection of weapons, absolute dominance.
The Rythm section of the storm?
I thought it sounded weird too. However, when I read it I thought of noise marines first due to musical reference to heavy weapons.
So "the rhythm section of the storm" (or possibly Battle Company Devastators, the name of the package) contains 2 devastator squads and 1 tactical squad?
Looks like --
1 Dev in front - 4 grav cannon and sarge with some combi 1 Dev behind - Plasma Cannon, Heavy Bolter, Multimelta, Las Cannon, one sage with a bolter
2 squads of 5 tacticals (or 1 squad of 10)... all with bolters. No obvious sergeants, heavy weapons or special weapons.
Does that look right? Depending on the formation buff, that could be interesting, I suppose.
The tactical box looks like it's being used to add 5 bolter marines to each dev squad to make them 10 strong, not as 2 5-strong devs and a 10 strong tac
Matt.Kingsley wrote: The tactical box looks like it's being used to add 5 bolter marines to each dev squad to make them 10 strong, not as 2 5-strong devs and a 10 strong tac
Oh, yeah. I'm certain you are right, now that I reread the text, too. The loadout IS absurd!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whirlwinds are web exclusive (come to think of it, I think they have been for a while). let me guess... new formation.. take 3, Apocalyptic size megablast, D-strength!
You know it is funny that the White Scars and Iron Hands have two of the most popular chapter tactics yet their Limited Editions are two of the last to sell out in the US. lol
Crimson Devil wrote: You know it is funny that the White Scars and Iron Hands have two of the most popular chapter tactics yet their Limited Editions are two of the last to sell out in the US. lol
People didn't particularly use their chapter tactics because of the fluff.
