Jambles wrote: The new tanks look... hmm. I don't know what I was expecting.
So the implication is that this is the only thing we're getting for Space Marines? No new codex or whatevs?
I think it is likely independent from any possible Codex release. This is more like the exclusive Captains they had when they did a new webstore. It's a "promote-the-store"-release.
They will be available to buy this weekend, while on the "main-release-front", we're still in the middle of Cult Mechanicus.
"Let's make some new products, but make it effectively impossible for almost all of our customers to purchase it even if they wanted to! It's genius! Our revenues will skyrocket!"
No gak. One of the most popular things I see going at Adepticon and GenCon at the FW booth is the Horus Heresy t-shirts, mugs, and gak. Why the feth don't they put them on the website.
I want to give you money for that over-priced t-shirt. I want one to wear. Sell me the damn thing on your website.
As for these, that's a little too much bling for me. The rhino door and side decorations are excellent. But the gak on top is a little much.
So, grav raiders, and is that a mini void shield generator?
It would be nice to have a void shield rhino squadron.
Wonder if you have to visit Warhammer world to get the rules as well?
Well, they have to make rules, there is currently no option for twin-linked plasma gun on a Rhino, nor a Grav Cannon on a Land Raider that I know of.
I think the models look very cool and fitting for command tanks.
I wonder if the guy sticking out of the Land Raider is a Tank Commander and we will get an all-armoured formation.
kronk wrote: No gak. One of the most popular things I see going at Adepticon and GenCon at the FW booth is the Horus Heresy t-shirts, mugs, and gak. Why the feth don't they put them on the website.
I want to give you money for that over-priced t-shirt. I want one to wear. Sell me the damn thing on your website.
Raw theory here, but they may keep people going to their Games Days or whatever. If they would sell these permanently, you could just grab it anytime you want one, so they would need some way to lure people in to their events. That means either revealing something far in advance or offering discounts, both of which seems to be at odds with their doctrine.
Hanskrampf wrote: Well, they have to make rules, there is currently no option for twin-linked plasma gun on a Rhino, nor a Grav Cannon on a Land Raider that I know of.
I think the models look very cool and fitting for command tanks.
I wonder if the guy sticking out of the Land Raider is a Tank Commander and we will get an all-armoured formation.
For all we know you get the rules for these tanks in their respective boxes - let's not go mental with idle speculation for the as yet unconfirmed codex
I'm not sure how I would feel if I were a Space Marine player having shelled out $60 (or more for a limited edition) to see my purchase invalidated in just over a year.
Quarterdime wrote: I'm not sure how I would feel if I were a Space Marine player having shelled out $60 (or more for a limited edition) to see my purchase invalidated in just over a year.
It's been longer than a year, man. Space Marines came out like... August 2013? would make it almost 2 years. Anyone who bought a LE should be price insensitive
Quarterdime wrote: I'm not sure how I would feel if I were a Space Marine player having shelled out $60 (or more for a limited edition) to see my purchase invalidated in just over a year.
It's been longer than a year, man. Space Marines came out like... August 2013? would make it almost 2 years. Anyone who bought a LE should be price insensitive
I'm super excited!!
I know, right??!! They should consider themselves lucky to get a year and a half's use out of a $50 book that previously would have lasted 3-5 years! Duh! It's like GW delivered a late christmas present by allowing them the pleasure of buying a book unexpectedly early.
Games Workshop is a strange company.
"Let's make some new products, but make it effectively impossible for almost all of our customers to purchase it even if they wanted to! It's genius! Our revenues will skyrocket!"
No gak. One of the most popular things I see going at Adepticon and GenCon at the FW booth is the Horus Heresy t-shirts, mugs, and gak. Why the feth don't they put them on the website.
I want to give you money for that over-priced t-shirt. I want one to wear. Sell me the damn thing on your website.
Yep same with all the little things they randomly put in packages - ohh look 40K Ork Christmas Cards - yeah I'd buy more but sadly you can't - they do seem to actively avoid the more obvious ways to make money....
I have been looking for an excuse to by a new Land Raider and some Rhinos. I got to get me those Plasma-Guns.
If the Land Raider is an HQ, this would make a great Allie for Grey Knights.
HQ: Land Raider Excelsior [Piloted by Stan of course]
Troop: Sniper Scouts
FA: Drop Pod [for Purifiers]
Heavy: Centurions
I wonder if the Razorback can take the Grav-Cannon...
I emailed GW's Warhammer World Events address (the one on the newsletter) to tell them that I like the tanks, but live in the US and have no intention of arranging international travel to buy a model. I asked what the availability will be for the overwhelming majority of their customer base who can't realistically make a trip to Warhammer World.
I'm CERTAIN (no sarcasm at all) that I'll get a timely and friendly response. If I do, I'll post it here.
Both models are a mess. The bling is nice, the random haphazard stuff on top much less so. And the dude on the LR is totally doing "DRIVE ME CLOSER I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY MACE" thing.
Exclusivity is also stupid. I for see these getting bought up, chopped up and sold off on eBay for stupid amounts of cash money.
Olgerth Istaarn wrote: Both models are a mess. The bling is nice, the random haphazard stuff on top much less so. And the dude on the LR is totally doing "DRIVE ME CLOSER I WANT TO HIT THEM WITH MY MACE" thing.
He's actually not.
Spoiler:
If you look, he seems to be more holding a baton rather than a mace--and it's not hard to envision that tank at the front of a spearhead of Land Raiders just waiting for him to lower his baton and unleash a metric buttload of lascannon fire.
I know, right??!! They should consider themselves lucky to get a year and a half's use out of a $50 book that previously would have lasted 3-5 years! Duh! It's like GW delivered a late christmas present by allowing them the pleasure of buying a book unexpectedly early.
Depends on how you look at it, man. Do you want to wait 1 year, 3 years, or 5 years for the next Halo? It's not what you pay: it's what you get out of it.
If you feel the new book is just a regurgitation of the last one, then yeah, what a bloody waste of money. On the other hand, if you feel the new book adds new content and/or has exciting changes, then, "SWEET!" the only question is, how much use you got out of the previous book. If you play twice a month for 5 hours a stretch -- so 120 hours per year, and got 2 years out of a book, that would be 240 hours. Add 20 hours of listbuilding to that, and make it 260 hours. Plus, you'd get some usage out of pictures and such for painting/modelling purposes, but let's skip that. So, if you spent $60 for 260 hours, that would be about $0.23 / hour of using the book. Considering that I probably need 3 books to play, just call it $0.75 / hour for rules. Of course, you have to add in models and such, but that's a whole different equation.
That isn't bad, though, since I pay $10 per hour just for a ticket to watch a movie -- more like $25 / hour if you throw in food and such -- and arguably, I'd rather play 40k than 90% of the movies I go see
Or, if I take muh lady out, it's probably going to be orders of magnitude more. Of course, I could bring her to play 40k, and that would kill two birds with one stone
Tannhauser42 wrote: I fully expect these to go into wide release when the new SM codex drops.
+1. Although I wonder if the only way to get the new sprue is to buy a new one. Bits aside of course.
As for the Rhino, it is gaudy, but what can we expect. Although I wonder if the Rhino attachment would look better on the Land Raider.
But, for any Crimson Fists aficionados, the decked out Land Raider reminds me of the scene when the 2nd? Company drives through New Rynn City looking all ceremonial to inspire citizens before the invasion.
Really like the banners and raised armour for that!
Huh. both of those models will look much improved when you notice that hat extra little radar dish is completely separate and can simply be left off. Leave the little vox skull off the rhino, and it looks no more cluttered than the stalker- just with a big dish on one side and a mini-void shield on the other.
The more I look at it, I will get that land Raider somehow. The doors are awesome, the grav turret is fun, and the pulpit and eagle cowl over the grav are both fun.
I think the flags on the raider are a throwback to the old epic land raider command model.
Anyway I doubt the Ultra marine doors are plastic so I'd bet on a general plastic release with a resin/plastic kit exclusive to WH world.
The doors don't look to have any Ultramarine insignia actually built in.
If you look at the Land Raider door that can be seen, there is no raised detail around the "U" or the scroll with the sword. It looks like it was all hand-painted.
Anyway I doubt the Ultra marine doors are plastic so I'd bet on a general plastic release with a resin/plastic kit exclusive to WH world.
The doors don't look to have any Ultramarine insignia actually built in.
If you look at the Land Raider door that can be seen, there is no raised detail around the "U" or the scroll with the sword. It looks like it was all hand-painted.
Good point, we'll have to see.
Or y'know, glue a cheap radar dish to our existing rhinos and carry on.
angelofvengeance wrote: I prefer the Damocles Command Rhino and the Land Raider Prometheus to be honest.
This. I'd say "who cares about the new stuff when there are existing models that look nicer and aren't limited to one store", but now FW will probably let them go OOP.
These things really demonstrate the difference in art direction between FW and GW main. Forge World put a simple sensor dish on the top and make a cool interior for it. GW, on the other hand, well... the Noise Marines in Dawn of War said it best: "Louder, louder!".
Frozen Ocean wrote: These things really demonstrate the difference in art direction between FW and GW main. Forge World put a simple sensor dish on the top and make a cool interior for it. GW, on the other hand, well... the Noise Marines in Dawn of War said it best: "Louder, louder!".
It also demonstrates what could be considered the difference between the transport for a Captain(the Prometheus or Damocles) and the transport for a Company Commander or Chapter Master.
Also could be justifiable as the difference between a newly arrived vehicle fresh from a Forge World and the Chapter's armories and a vehicle with a pedigree as old as the Chapter itself.
After being completely underwhelmed by recent GW releases [in particular AdMech] I think this is a return to form. The eagle radar thing is great and they would make a brilliant centrepiece. To those complaining about availability I'm sure these will go on general sale soon enough; plus, companies limit availability all of the time [FW event only minis, Operation Icestorm limited edition etc.]
Not overly impressed with the new tanks. The Rhino looks cluttered and random and the LR for such an iconic vehicle dosent have much added to it.
*grumble grumble*
Anyway I doubt the Ultra marine doors are plastic so I'd bet on a general plastic release with a resin/plastic kit exclusive to WH world.
The doors don't look to have any Ultramarine insignia actually built in.
If you look at the Land Raider door that can be seen, there is no raised detail around the "U" or the scroll with the sword. It looks like it was all hand-painted.
Good point, we'll have to see.
Or y'know, glue a cheap radar dish to our existing rhinos and carry on.
Whichever.
I used the imperial bits from the old apoc command sprue plus some others from the regular vehicle one. It's not as flashy/fancy but it works and was free.
Colour me unimpressed. I'm getting increasingly fed up with the need to cover every inch of marine stuff with bling. As much as I loved a lot of the recent BA release the need to put scroll work or dangling blood gems on EVERYTHING was dumb and unnecessary. There's decoration/ornamentation and there's whatever the hell this is.
Hey, gee-dub, it's ok to have an armour panel that isn't covered in stuff.
Those unhelmeted heads look awful. I think the LR commander has a double chin lol.
Did they really name a LR variant the excelsior? Hahaha
They really do not know what direction to take spaces marines anymore in the "new" 40k environment of ever escalating wow and pizazz lol. Spaces marines are quickly going from fulfilling the BAMF super soldier trope to corny GI Joe goofballs.
I have zero interest in the bling in the context of the vehicles, but it will be extremely frustrating if they really have been stupid enough to limit this to WHW only, since much of the bling would make very useful bitz when used in moderation on other projects, but travelling halfway across the country and forking over the doubtless increased price for the vehicles is simply not worth it for a new servo-skull and if they're limited the stuff will never show up on bitz retailers.
Kanluwen wrote: It also demonstrates what could be considered the difference between the transport for a Captain(the Prometheus or Damocles) and the transport for a Company Commander or Chapter Master.
Also could be justifiable as the difference between a newly arrived vehicle fresh from a Forge World and the Chapter's armories and a vehicle with a pedigree as old as the Chapter itself.
Or it's the sadly common lazy design from the "main GW" sculptors, where digital sculpting has enabled terrible "copy/paste skulls and purity seals everywhere" models. But hey, if you want to have a fast release cycle then I guess spending the minimum possible time on designing each kit is just the price you have to pay.
If I wanted another Rhino or Land Raider I'd like the option of getting these as the bits look useful. I can't see myself making them as shown though. Far too busy for me.
Just as long as they don't get rid of the Prometheus, I'm happy.
Gw and 40k proper have never acknowledged it so how could it go away? The FW rules don't have and expiration date so they last until replaced or a big edition change happens that makes them unplayable. I'd say you're good until that happens.
Looks like you replace the basic vehicle accessory sprue with a unique one (no idea if the two vehicles are paired or not... would be pretty pricey if they were)
Ugh, I'm not at all a fan of these new tanks. Maybe it's the paintjob, but they just come off as "we feel we need more new releases but have no real good ideas". Also...didn't the Space Marines already have a command-variant Rhino? The Damocles?
sockwithaticket wrote: Colour me unimpressed. I'm getting increasingly fed up with the need to cover every inch of marine stuff with bling. As much as I loved a lot of the recent BA release the need to put scroll work or dangling blood gems on EVERYTHING was dumb and unnecessary. There's decoration/ornamentation and there's whatever the hell this is.
Hey, gee-dub, it's ok to have an armour panel that isn't covered in stuff.
Actually, the bigger problem I see with these is that there are only some armour panels covered in stuff.
I quote like the minimalist approach to marines. I also (for different reasons) quite like the 'covered in bling' approach.
These don't fit either of those. They're the stock standard, minimalist vehicle kits with a few embellished panels thrown on randomly. The end result isn't a venerated, lovingly embellished command vehicle. It's a stock standard vehicle with a few embellished panels thrown on.
The thing I find really odd is the fact that the designers chose to load the rhino with way more techno-gubbinz than the land raider, despite being much smaller. Seems counter-intuitive to me. Like with a number of GW kits, there's individual parts of it I like, but I feel they could of restrained themselves a little, keep the large radar on the rhino and move everything else onto the land raider.
Wow...those look like crap. I was hoping for a GW version of the FW Command Rhino. I am hoping that the Grav Cannon/Grav Amp turret becomes something that all Razorbacks and Land Raiders take, and available for SM and BA. A Fast Grav Cannon/Grav Amp Razorback would be brutal. Not counting on wide releases of anything from these though.
I'm really not keen the direction GW are going with 40KSM, so gaudy and ridiculous. Maybe its just because I'm a grumpy Raven Guard fan!
I'm holding back getting back into the hobby till the new codex drops, but the aesthetics and the rules of 30K just seem to trump 40K every time.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow...those look like crap. I was hoping for a GW version of the FW Command Rhino. I am hoping that the Grav Cannon/Grav Amp turret becomes something that all Razorbacks and Land Raiders take, and available for SM and BA. A Fast Grav Cannon/Grav Amp Razorback would be brutal. Not counting on wide releases of anything from these though.
I doubt any of the "other" marines will get it. (then again, BA got some grav gun options...)
The rumor say C:SM will get to take squadrons of tanks, making command tanks mandatory.
They will probably have some awesome formations that require both the LR and Rhino command tanks as well.
For all we know, they end up in formations that make ordinary SM tanks "fast".
Erik_Morkai wrote: More on topic, I think the release data is wrong. Isn't WHFB 9th ed already scheduled for June 13th? Two big releases on the very same day? Not convinced. July or August maybe but not June.
Time will tell I suppose.
Unless they push back fantasy to sell more of a line that probably makes more than all of fantasy combined.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Wow...those look like crap. I was hoping for a GW version of the FW Command Rhino.
Well, that is their version of it. Their version of it is just crap because GW makes a lot of crap models. [/quote
Well thats an opinion i dont agee with!
99% of releases lately have been exquisite and creative. In fact I cant think of anything ive truely disliked.
99% of releases lately have been exquisite and creative. In fact I cant think of anything ive truely disliked.
Same here, I have been quite impressed as of late.
These tanks are no different and will obviously be used in some of the upcoming formations.
Pretty sure it says the WW exclusive just for the big opening too.
Malika2 wrote: Hmm, I wonder if that's going to be the case. I mean, where is that Plasma Generator, or what about that Land Raider Terminus?
I'm thinking too many new plastic gubbins just to sell a few pieces at WhW.
Hopefully sold as a WHW exclusive as a complete kit, then online as an upgrade sprue like the Ork Deffrolla sprue. Would make sense, still drive traffic to GW stores, and would let other people who are not Brits buy the thing legally without being gouged by scalpers on E-Bay.
The contents of the Rhino look bulky, but should fit on a single sprue like the Stalker/Hunter. Same with the Land Raider. Single large sprue to replace the old Hatch sprue. Sell the sprues online for $25-30 a pop, and people (like me) will buy them.
I'm seeing too many lazy designs coming from GW these days. These two kits are good examples. Another good example are the gun 'hands' on the new Ad Mech Robots. The best example of lazy design are the 'hands' or lack of, on the AM Bullgryns - these are the epitome of lazy design IMO.
sierra 1247 wrote: This is why I'm sticking to 30k, keeping SM as the gritty, super soldiers they should be rather than the bling covered toffs geedubs is making them..
Plenty of the 30k legions are just as pretty in the 30k art shown. Alpha marines have pretty hats, UM have more bling than a rap concert, Dark Angels still wear pretty skirts that match other accessories, and Emperor's Children are still Emperor's Children. The only gritty ones are the ones that are still gritty 10,000 years later.
oni wrote: I'm seeing too many lazy designs coming from GW these days. These two kits are good examples. Another good example are the gun 'hands' on the new Ad Mech Robots. The best example of lazy design are the 'hands' or lack of, on the AM Bullgryns - these are the epitome of lazy design IMO.
I'd say it's not lazy, but rather 'efficiency-oriented'. "Hey, we need two command tanks to sell at WHW. Could you have them ready by Friday? Cheers." - it's all a matter of design time allocated.
sierra 1247 wrote: This is why I'm sticking to 30k, keeping SM as the gritty, super soldiers they should be rather than the bling covered toffs geedubs is making them..
Plenty of the 30k legions are just as pretty in the 30k art shown. Alpha marines have pretty hats, UM have more bling than a rap concert, Dark Angels still wear pretty skirts that match other accessories, and Emperor's Children are still Emperor's Children. The only gritty ones are the ones that are still gritty 10,000 years later.
That's a good point, but then again I'm a World Eaters player
sierra 1247 wrote: This is why I'm sticking to 30k, keeping SM as the gritty, super soldiers they should be rather than the bling covered toffs geedubs is making them..
Plenty of the 30k legions are just as pretty in the 30k art shown. Alpha marines have pretty hats, UM have more bling than a rap concert, Dark Angels still wear pretty skirts that match other accessories, and Emperor's Children are still Emperor's Children. The only gritty ones are the ones that are still gritty 10,000 years later.
30K bling is a tailored suit and a tasteful watch. 40K bling is a 1998 Ford Fiesta with a ridiculous body-kit, a massive spoiler, neon running lights, a sound system that can pulp human bone with bass, spinners, and a gold paintjob with dayglo flame decals.
sierra 1247 wrote: This is why I'm sticking to 30k, keeping SM as the gritty, super soldiers they should be rather than the bling covered toffs geedubs is making them..
Plenty of the 30k legions are just as pretty in the 30k art shown. Alpha marines have pretty hats, UM have more bling than a rap concert, Dark Angels still wear pretty skirts that match other accessories, and Emperor's Children are still Emperor's Children. The only gritty ones are the ones that are still gritty 10,000 years later.
30K bling is a tailored suit and a tasteful watch. 40K bling is a 1998 Ford Fiesta with a ridiculous body-kit, a massive spoiler, neon running lights, a sound system that can pulp human bone with bass, spinners, and a gold paintjob with dayglo flame decals.
The point remains though, it amazes me how what is essentially just an office in the same building working for the same company consistently gets things so much more right than another one.
No gak. One of the most popular things I see going at Adepticon and GenCon at the FW booth is the Horus Heresy t-shirts, mugs, and gak. Why the feth don't they put them on the website.
I want to give you money for that over-priced t-shirt. I want one to wear. Sell me the damn thing on your website.
Spoiler:
Oh, my lord. You have just channelled my inner self. There has been SO MUCH STUFF over the years that I wanted to give GW/FW money for, and they keep refusing. I want the over-priced shirt. I want to PAY YOU to advertise FOR YOU. Why won't you let me, GW?
sierra 1247 wrote: This is why I'm sticking to 30k, keeping SM as the gritty, super soldiers they should be rather than the bling covered toffs geedubs is making them..
Plenty of the 30k legions are just as pretty in the 30k art shown. Alpha marines have pretty hats, UM have more bling than a rap concert, Dark Angels still wear pretty skirts that match other accessories, and Emperor's Children are still Emperor's Children. The only gritty ones are the ones that are still gritty 10,000 years later.
30K bling is a tailored suit and a tasteful watch. 40K bling is a 1998 Ford Fiesta with a ridiculous body-kit, a massive spoiler, neon running lights, a sound system that can pulp human bone with bass, spinners, and a gold paintjob with dayglo flame decals.
Several of Forge World's Legions, thus far, have Blingminators, who, being Terminators, bear more bling than anyone else. Here are Blingminators from the one Legion most known for their opulence:
Spoiler:
Here is FW's World Eater equivalent:
Spoiler:
If GW made World Eater Terminators, even 30k ones (so no Khorne), they'd be made entirely out of skulls. On those skulls would be chains that end in more skulls which are attached to axes (Bloodblood Wrathrage Skullaxes of Worldeat). I am horrified to even contemplate how GW would handle the Primarchs.
uk_crow wrote: I'm really not keen the direction GW are going with 40KSM, so gaudy and ridiculous. Maybe its just because I'm a grumpy Raven Guard fan!
I'm holding back getting back into the hobby till the new codex drops, but the aesthetics and the rules of 30K just seem to trump 40K every time.
But the models are finally starting to match the depicted portrayal of the Space Marine chapters (and IoM in general). Just look thru any edition of codex or rulebook, all the way back to 2nd edition when the look was solidified, and you'll see that SM artwork always showed them adorned in gobs of bling, and their commanders even more so.
I don't mind the blinged out look for veteran and command models such as these. I'd rather my opponent be able to tell the difference between the standard version and the command version without me reminding them every turn.
I imagine that a Damocles command Rhino is what it looks like coming out of the factory. Over the years and battles, parts are replaced and awards and modifications are added, so eventually it looks like a Rhino Primaris.
The Excelsior is less a designed command vehicle like the Prometheus, but more a normal Land Raider that say Sergeant Chronus requisitioned a while back, and over the years it has accumulated decorations to honor his victories, and a grav cannon to replace a destroyed HB turret.
Those rules seem a bit strong. Points could bring them into line, but they have some pretty nasty tricks they can pull. Tricks appropriate for a command vehicle, but still. Wow.
Full BS overwatch is a bit over the top, even if it’s just for a turn. Techmarines need a 5+ to patch up a HP (although they can fix other things).
pretre wrote: Anyone heard about the blood oath supplement? Khorne vs ultras?
Just the blurry pic
Spoiler:
Oh, cool! I didn't imagine GW would be doing something like this with FW covering Word Bearers vs Ultramarines. I'm going to be all over that! Of course, I haven't yet finished all the tyranids I impulse bought for Shield of Baal... oh well to the shelf you go
pretre wrote: Anyone heard about the blood oath supplement? Khorne vs ultras?
Just the blurry pic
Spoiler:
It's the Red Vs. Blue Supplement
"So I say to the guy, "How you going to get the tank down to the planet?" And he goes, "I'll just put it on the ship." And I go, "If you've got a ship that can carry a tank, why not just put guns on the ship and use it instead?""
at least both can be converted easily. People have put the agis defensive line becan on rhinos for years now to convert Damocles rhinos. The Twin-linked plasma guns and Gav-cannons wouldn't be to hard to convert. The only thing you lose out on is the bling. But that's what FW vheclie doors are for, and look alot nicer anyway.
Just as long as they don't get rid of the Prometheus, I'm happy.
Gw and 40k proper have never acknowledged it so how could it go away? The FW rules don't have and expiration date so they last until replaced or a big edition change happens that makes them unplayable. I'd say you're good until that happens.
The Prometheus is referenced in the Redeemer entry (at least it was in the 5th ed book). The Salamanders techmarine who created the Redeemer was quite disappointed to find out there was already a land raider variant in use designated "Prometheus".
Grimtuff wrote: The Salamanders techmarine who created the Redeemer was quite disappointed to find out there was already a land raider variant in use designated "Prometheus".
Huh, never heard that one. That's actually pretty funny.
Orock wrote: Thought I would throw this up here. I read thru some forums for new space marine rumors that orbital strike would be becoming str D. I shrugged it off at the time, but then forgeworld released this models rules, which give it more credit than I originally gave it.
Spoiler:
also just noticed it changed to 7 inch blast
warboss wrote: I don't think each individual rule deserves its own thread but in any case you're apparently incorrect regardless. The FwHH orbital strike is str D but the 40kGW one for the new marine command vehicles is str 10 massive blast ord 1 yadda yadda.
Grimtuff wrote: The Salamanders techmarine who created the Redeemer was quite disappointed to find out there was already a land raider variant in use designated "Prometheus".
Huh, never heard that one. That's actually pretty funny.
Just got in, I was going from memory there. It was the Fire Lords who developed the Redeemer and the Salamanders that developed the Prometheus.
... he named the new variant "Prometheus" after the Terran god of legend who brought fire to men. He changed the official designation to Redeemer only upon learning the name was already taken by a variant developed by the Salamanders...
Sucks that Grey Knights can't take either without allying them in. The Rhino Primaris certainly would help their reserve game and give them some native access to skyfire besides using a Storm Raven.
Grimskul wrote: Sucks that Grey Knights can't take either without allying them in. The Rhino Primaris certainly would help their reserve game and give them some native access to skyfire besides using a Storm Raven.
You mean take as the Ally HQ to go with your Snipers, Drop Pod Purifiers and Marine Stromraven?
Grimskul wrote: Sucks that Grey Knights can't take either without allying them in. The Rhino Primaris certainly would help their reserve game and give them some native access to skyfire besides using a Storm Raven.
You mean take as the Ally HQ to go with your Snipers, Drop Pod Purifiers and Marine Stromraven?
I meant more for GK players who like to keep a relatively "pure" GK force. Competitively this is a bonus for the majority of Imperial forces.
You know, I'm not sure if I noticed this before now or if it's just on these rules, but strictly RAW doesn't this mean my land raider excelsior can take, theoretically, any number of storm bolters for 5 points apiece?
So units get to shoot twice or assault after deep-striking, that's kinda cool. People are probably gonna call it trash because it makes you take 6 tactical squads, though.
Apologies, I just found out that this is a formation from the Oath of Blood campaign book that a local gakker has been passing off as something from the upcoming codex.
Sidstyler wrote: So units get to shoot twice or assault after deep-striking, that's kinda cool. People are probably gonna call it trash because it makes you take 6 tactical squads, though.
No. It's actually pretty piss-poor game design if you ask me. Games will be won or lost (even more than currently) on the roll-off on who goes first and whether or not you can side-step this alpha strike with null-deployment, intercept it away (if you're Tau), etc.. or have to take it in the face.
Playing beyond turn 1 becomes increasingly pointless.
Whatever happend to having suspense in a game slowly increase throughout with a neck-to-neck finish in .. say ... turn 6?
Vintersorg wrote: Interesting to note that they say that you have to select form the Ultramarines Chapter.
So are chapters gonna be introduced like the oldschool Guard Regiments?
It's not new per-se, the unique units and characters FW produced have long since included the proviso of "May be used in a force representing X chapter" It might represent a change in language for the next book to differentiate Crimson Fist and Imperial Fist characters. It could also, and this is more likely, be a thematic restriction for the campaign; they designed for Ultras so by the throne, you will play this with ultras or you won't play it at all.
Sidstyler wrote: So units get to shoot twice or assault after deep-striking, that's kinda cool. People are probably gonna call it trash because it makes you take 6 tactical squads, though.
No. It's actually pretty piss-poor game design if you ask me. Games will be won or lost (even more than currently) on the roll-off on who goes first and whether or not you can side-step this alpha strike with null-deployment, intercept it away (if you're Tau), etc.. or have to take it in the face.
Playing beyond turn 1 becomes increasingly pointless.
Whatever happend to having suspense in a game slowly increase throughout with a neck-to-neck finish in .. say ... turn 6?
Yeah, I'd agree with you, but you know it's painfully obvious at this point that 40k will never be like that again. The best we can hope for is everyone getting their own broken formations, detachments, etc. to bring them up to par.
Maybe it's only cool to me because I do play Tau, so I have cheap Interceptor out the ass and thus feel that dropping in like that has to have some kind of benefit (like extra shots or assaulting after) in order to make it worth deep-striking in the first place.
Anyway, even if it's from the upcoming campaign book, isn't that stuff still technically playable anyway? Like the Shield of Baal formations and stuff which seem to be generally accepted and playable alongside codex rules.
Blimey, that's a shiny formation! Drop Pods doing what they should, doubles doubles taps on the drop (with the UM Tactical Doctrine TL all the Gas! Who has low firepower now, huh?) and assault marines/Dreads charging straight in.
It's a good example of why I don't like the current 'free bonus' Formation style; that would be fine as a +100 point upgrade, but dishing it out for free is too much, even for the larger games it's meant for.
It's a 2500pt formation without any upgrades. I really don't think it's an issue as a formation anyway. It's a formation that seems mostly designed for Apoc sized gaming.
So bit of news for the Adeptus Astartes Codex. GW reps are recommending that the following kits not be re-ordered. Codex Space Marines. Assault Squads and Devastator Squads so it sounds like new kits and book are inbound very soon.
Apologies if this has already been reported.
I was just thinking that it's weird that with all the rumors of a May-June release that nothing has been leaked yet. I remember last year (?) when the new IG books was due, there was at least a couple months of rumors preceded by a month of leaks.( and not just for new Marines.....the heresy era marines were also supposed to drop around now).
And guess who just bought assault marines and devs..........
WindsOfFury wrote: So the Adeptus Astartes Strikeforce went No longer available sometime in the last 24h... (?)
I'm pretty sure that it was available yesterday.
Should we take this as a sign that something is coming?
WindsOfFury wrote: So the Adeptus Astartes Strikeforce went No longer available sometime in the last 24h... (?)
I'm pretty sure that it was available yesterday.
Should we take this as a sign that something is coming?
Is it Out of Stock or No Longer Available?
And is it "Adeptus Astartes Strikeforce" or "Adeptus Astartes Strikeforce Ultra", because the latter has been gone for awhile.
WindsOfFury wrote: So the Adeptus Astartes Strikeforce went No longer available sometime in the last 24h... (?)
I'm pretty sure that it was available yesterday.
Should we take this as a sign that something is coming?
Is it Out of Stock or No Longer Available?
And is it "Adeptus Astartes Strikeforce" or "Adeptus Astartes Strikeforce Ultra", because the latter has been gone for awhile.
Kanluwen wrote: Pft, natfka/Faeit are basically trawling the Internet and reading the same rumors as you.
In fact, I think they read this post and then posted their rumor!
WindsOfFury wrote: So the Adeptus Astartes Strikeforce went No longer available sometime in the last 24h... (?)
I'm pretty sure that it was available yesterday.
Should we take this as a sign that something is coming?
You should tell them to ask you first, next time!
On topic: I hope my Black Templars get their Holy Orbs of Antioch back!
Seriously, the only model line that's in worse shape than ours is freaking Sisters of Battle! But sure, let's give those loyalist dogs a big release they don't need, while odds are we'll get a one week 'release' that gives us a gakking clam pack and continues to leave us completely in the dirt...
Seriously, the only model line that's in worse shape than ours is freaking Sisters of Battle! But sure, let's give those loyalist dogs a big release they don't need, while odds are we'll get a one week 'release' that gives us a gakking clam pack and continues to leave us completely in the dirt...
At least they are re-doing Space Marines now and not another couple months from now. This means that CSM should be that much closer to getting a book in the pipeline.
rollawaythestone wrote: Yay! Glad I held out on buying Assault Squads for my new Blood Angels army. Gonna have a whole army of all the freshest newest sculpts.
Or the old minis are just being reboxed with 32mm bases!
I do hope we get new Assault and Devastator boxes, as they, the TFC and the Honour Guard are the only SM minis that aren't so great these days or in plastic, but I wouldn't be surprised if it are just a rebox.
rollawaythestone wrote: Yay! Glad I held out on buying Assault Squads for my new Blood Angels army. Gonna have a whole army of all the freshest newest sculpts.
Or the old minis are just being reboxed with 32mm bases!
I do hope we get new Assault and Devastator boxes, as they, the TFC and the Honour Guard are the only SM minis that aren't so great these days or in plastic, but I wouldn't be surprised if it are just a rebox.
The old weapon sprue is fine, but the old body sprue (shared with the command squad) was getting old. May as well bring it into line with the new style bodies (which assemble differently than the old ones as far as the pegs and sockets in the torso) and throw in a couple new options. Grav cannon makes sense and would be nice.
Kanluwen wrote: Pft, natfka/Faeit are basically trawling the Internet and reading the same rumors as you.
This is Steve the Warboss. He's previously predicted SOB, CSM, Warhammer 9th, CA and C:CSM all for May.
There is still one Friday left in May for unannounced releases. GW could surprise us all and say in the next White Dwarf that May 29 will be a megarelease date with SOB (along with 8 plastic kits!), CSM, CA, C:SM, and WH9th.
Seriously, the only model line that's in worse shape than ours is freaking Sisters of Battle! But sure, let's give those loyalist dogs a big release they don't need, while odds are we'll get a one week 'release' that gives us a gakking clam pack and continues to leave us completely in the dirt...
At least they are re-doing Space Marines now and not another couple months from now. This means that CSM should be that much closer to getting a book in the pipeline.
Yeah, people were so sure that Long Fangs would get a Hellfrost cannon of some kind also.
Do not pass out while holding your breath.
So, basically, they could just sell a kit with 3 sprues: 5 Bodies, Assault gear, Devastator gear (of course, priced higher than the assault- or the devastator box before) and if you want to use the other bits you can just buy tac squads.
If GW made World Eater Terminators, even 30k ones (so no Khorne), they'd be made entirely out of skulls. On those skulls would be chains that end in more skulls which are attached to axes (Bloodblood Wrathrage Skullaxes of Worldeat). I am horrified to even contemplate how GW would handle the Primarchs.
I'm sorry, but put away the FW Rose Colored glasses. Those Khorne termies look absolutely ridiculous. I can help but think they are making airplane noises and running around in circles like a hyper-active 4 year old....
If GW made World Eater Terminators, even 30k ones (so no Khorne), they'd be made entirely out of skulls. On those skulls would be chains that end in more skulls which are attached to axes (Bloodblood Wrathrage Skullaxes of Worldeat). I am horrified to even contemplate how GW would handle the Primarchs.
I'm sorry, but put away the FW Rose Colored glasses. Those Khorne termies look absolutely ridiculous. I can help but think they are making airplane noises and running around in circles like a hyper-active 4 year old....
If GW made World Eater Terminators, even 30k ones (so no Khorne), they'd be made entirely out of skulls. On those skulls would be chains that end in more skulls which are attached to axes (Bloodblood Wrathrage Skullaxes of Worldeat). I am horrified to even contemplate how GW would handle the Primarchs.
I'm sorry, but put away the FW Rose Colored glasses. Those Khorne termies look absolutely ridiculous. I can help but think they are making airplane noises and running around in circles like a hyper-active 4 year old....
It will be interesting to see what happens to marines, chapter tactics, and their decurion style formations. Hopefully they make tacs worth taking.....
Leth wrote: It will be interesting to see what happens to marines, chapter tactics, and their decurion style formations. Hopefully they make tacs worth taking.....
I doubt it but that would really be the only thing making me seriously want to consider playing SM again. If they got a book were a mech SM + tank army truly works, I'll insta-buy the codex. I have no actual idea why everyone keeps telling themselves that the 6th SM codex is such a great dex with multiple builds and good internal balance, which is a horrible joke of a statement that borders on the edge of denial, unless you're spamming gravbikes, invisicents and Smash fether. To me, the core part of a true Astartes army should be tactical marines with fast/elite units to support them, not 2 minimal squads of rookie scout Joe number 1,2,3 and 4, led by Sergeant rookie scout Joe number 5, supported by a disturbing amount of over sized space marine bikes, doing battle as if they were trying to replicate the Battle of the Little Bighorn with a twist of ceramite steeds, led by a testerone filled book keeper that hangs around grimdark teletubbies, armed with gravity cannons.
Leth wrote: It will be interesting to see what happens to marines, chapter tactics, and their decurion style formations. Hopefully they make tacs worth taking.....
Unfortunately I think the Codex Astartes fluff is going to bite marine players in the butt. Nearly every Power Armor formation in the game right now is simply too expensive to run, because most of them require multiple ten man squads. The new formations from the Khorne vs. Ultras are INSANE, but so expensive that you shouldn't expect to field them outside of Apocalpyse games.
There is no such thing as apoc now; it's just all normal fluffy 40k with narratives about balanced gretchins versus titan fights, dontchyaknow? It fits in exactly with what they've been doing. Nobody buys vypers? You can make them better or you can make them mandatory in every formation. Guess which one GW chose? They've been focusing the rules on bigger and bigger purchases for several years now.
Meh, if they start to make certain upgrades free or cheap(like in the eldar book) or vastly easier to access, or even just more versatile within the book as well as more even chapter tactics I will be happy. Especially if there is a deathwatch book near the same time
Deathwatch is tailor made for a $40 supplement with one real entry and, if we're lucky, a couple of variants. In the age of bite sized but full priced 40k, I really doubt they'd introduce them into a codex for "free".
Never said it would be, but if they continue with the knight idea where they throw an extra sprue into a box for a new kit, like a stern guard + deathwatch sprue and a 33 doll book(little ones are actually cheaper now) I would be soooooo happy. We saw them do it with the space wolves for all their kits
Or something like the aspect warriors formation where it's choices from the first company.
How cool would having the specialist companies getting formations like eldar did? Devastator, assault, scout, first etc. captain required probably with chapter master being an alternate choice. So on and so forth. Sounds exciteing
I bet we will see some of the old formations reborn( like the storm raven+ storm talon one)
warboss wrote: It fits in exactly with what they've been doing. Nobody buys vypers? You can make them better or you can make them mandatory in every formation. Guess which one GW chose? They've been focusing the rules on bigger and bigger purchases for several years now.
Yes its easy to get cynical about how they build formations to increase sales, but IMO its a better
tactic than removing the slow selling units from the stores, making them even more unavailable And on the other hand, you could see it as a way to make people buy armies of more mixed and fluffy units instead of spamming.
Not saying that is GWs intent, but its the practical consequence.
After all, it would be strange if the formations just spammed the cheese and also gave it some formation bonus.
And in the end, "formations" is just one optional way to build an army. For example, no one have to run vypers just because they want to play eldar.
warboss wrote: It fits in exactly with what they've been doing. Nobody buys vypers? You can make them better or you can make them mandatory in every formation. Guess which one GW chose? They've been focusing the rules on bigger and bigger purchases for several years now.
Yes its easy to get cynical about how they build formations to increase sales, but IMO its a better
tactic than removing the slow selling units from the stores, making them even more unavailable And on the other hand, you could see it as a way to make people buy armies of more mixed and fluffy units instead of spamming.
Not saying that is GWs intent, but its the practical consequence.
After all, it would be strange if the formations just spammed the cheese and also gave it some formation bonus.
And in the end, "formations" is just one optional way to build an army. For example, no one have to run vypers just because they want to play eldar.
This ^
You don't need to play a battle force, formation or follow any of the objective secured rules. Unless you're looking at doing a tournament then you can just play whatever you'd like. I play against my brother (Eldar - Iyanden), his friend (Tau - Farsight) and another friend (Necron-Decurion). Sometimes I run lists that are as competitive as possible. Other times it's as simple as how many land raiders can you guys stop before I dislodge a ton of terminators. I've played fluffy and nonsense come the apocalypse game types. People put too much importance on somethings.
Talys wrote: So, going by this, the units to buff should be...
- Attack bikes!
- Speeders and Speeder Storms?
- Storm Ravens and Land Raiders?
- Tactical terminators, woohoo
- Dreadnoughts?
- Devastator and command squads!
- Vindicators and predators
What did I miss that we never see on the table? Oh yeah, and nerf those bikes, centurions, and drop pods!!!
Ah, but you forgot the obligatory unnecessary buff of an already powerful unit, so expect Centurions to gain a 2++ and have their toughness bumped to 7
Talys wrote: So, going by this, the units to buff should be...
- Attack bikes!
- Speeders and Speeder Storms?
- Storm Ravens and Land Raiders?
- Tactical terminators, woohoo
- Dreadnoughts?
- Devastator and command squads!
- Vindicators and predators
What did I miss that we never see on the table? Oh yeah, and nerf those bikes, centurions, and drop pods!!!
Forgive me but how exactly does command squad needs buffing and how the heck are they never fielded at your area? They're easily THE most flexible squad in the book. The amount of wargear, guns, transport and even FNP they have acces to is beyond amazing.
Talys wrote: So, going by this, the units to buff should be...
- Attack bikes! - Speeders and Speeder Storms? - Storm Ravens and Land Raiders? - Tactical terminators, woohoo - Dreadnoughts? - Devastator and command squads! - Vindicators and predators
What did I miss that we never see on the table? Oh yeah, and nerf those bikes, centurions, and drop pods!!!
Forgive me but how exactly does command squad needs buffing and how the heck are they never fielded at your area? They're easily THE most flexible squad in the book. The amount of wargear, guns, transport and even FNP they have acces to is beyond amazing.
What I was actually talking about was boxes of models that nobody buys that need to be buffed. Command squads are great, but everyone pays 35 points to put them onto bikes, and they don't therefore don't purchase the command squad box of models, you know what I mean? The direction of the thread was "upgrade the kits that nobody is buying". I wasn't suggesting that the unit wasn't good, just the uselessness of the box of models that has old bits getting long in the tooth (and missing bikes lol).
Talys wrote: So, going by this, the units to buff should be...
- Attack bikes!
- Speeders and Speeder Storms?
- Storm Ravens and Land Raiders?
- Tactical terminators, woohoo
- Dreadnoughts?
- Devastator and command squads!
- Vindicators and predators
What did I miss that we never see on the table? Oh yeah, and nerf those bikes, centurions, and drop pods!!!
Why in the world would you nerf Bikers? They're fine; we just need a reason to take Tacticals besides the Drop Pod (like two Special Weapons access and maybe a cheaper Rhino by 5 points).
I think tacticals will only get buffed through formations. Not much you can change to the build, they've always been 1 special and 1 heavy. Who knows, maybe a formation with 3 tacticals. 1 assault, 1 devastator. Free rhino or drop pod (base only...upgrades have to be paid for) for each sqd. Must equal 10 marines. etc.
I'm just waiting for Dark Angels to see what formation bonuses Ravenwing and Deathwing get.
Talys wrote: So, going by this, the units to buff should be...
- Attack bikes!
- Speeders and Speeder Storms?
- Storm Ravens and Land Raiders?
- Tactical terminators, woohoo
- Dreadnoughts?
- Devastator and command squads!
- Vindicators and predators
What did I miss that we never see on the table? Oh yeah, and nerf those bikes, centurions, and drop pods!!!
Why in the world would you nerf Bikers? They're fine; we just need a reason to take Tacticals besides the Drop Pod (like two Special Weapons access and maybe a cheaper Rhino by 5 points).
Sarcasm and humor just got lost in the internet. I was just suggesting that for model sales efficiency, nerf kits people already spent hundreds on, buff kits nobody buys (a joke)
Brother SRM wrote: If there's a new Devastator squad kit, it better have that reinforced leg armor the old Devs in 2nd ed had.
While cool, it will probably just replace the 2 doubles that come in that kit for a new Grav cannon and probably some new fangled new shiny so that the kit only comes with one of each weapons. making you buy 4 diffrent kits just to get a full load out for 1 unit.
Brother SRM wrote: If there's a new Devastator squad kit, it better have that reinforced leg armor the old Devs in 2nd ed had.
While cool, it will probably just replace the 2 doubles that come in that kit for a new Grav cannon and probably some new fangled new shiny so that the kit only comes with one of each weapons. making you buy 4 diffrent kits just to get a full load out for 1 unit.
Well, they didn't do that for Eldar or Assault Terminators so there is hope! They should just get rid if stuff like heavy bolter. That's 3 or 4 pieces for a junk weapon.
bullyboy wrote: I think tacticals will only get buffed through formations. Not much you can change to the build, they've always been 1 special and 1 heavy. Who knows, maybe a formation with 3 tacticals. 1 assault, 1 devastator. Free rhino or drop pod (base only...upgrades have to be paid for) for each sqd. Must equal 10 marines. etc.
I'm just waiting for Dark Angels to see what formation bonuses Ravenwing and Deathwing get.
I'd rather the formation give all my tactical and assaults squads free specials, and give devastators a discount or some special rule.
Then again, getting a free Razorback and then spending 20pts to make it a las/plas back would be great, too!
And hey, they didn't put required amounts on the Eldar or Necron formations, so here's hoping they give Adeptus Astartes the same options too!
Leth wrote: It will be interesting to see what happens to marines, chapter tactics, and their decurion style formations. Hopefully they make tacs worth taking.....
Unfortunately I think the Codex Astartes fluff is going to bite marine players in the butt. Nearly every Power Armor formation in the game right now is simply too expensive to run, because most of them require multiple ten man squads. The new formations from the Khorne vs. Ultras are INSANE, but so expensive that you shouldn't expect to field them outside of Apocalpyse games.
who doesnt have multiple 10 man squads? tac marines are damn useful.
Leth wrote: It will be interesting to see what happens to marines, chapter tactics, and their decurion style formations. Hopefully they make tacs worth taking.....
Unfortunately I think the Codex Astartes fluff is going to bite marine players in the butt. Nearly every Power Armor formation in the game right now is simply too expensive to run, because most of them require multiple ten man squads. The new formations from the Khorne vs. Ultras are INSANE, but so expensive that you shouldn't expect to field them outside of Apocalpyse games.
who doesnt have multiple 10 man squads? tac marines are damn useful.
From a collection POV, people who built razor-spam lists, or just work with 5 man dev squads might need to scramble for more PA bodies to fill out their squads. If assault marines are needed, how many squads are on people’s shelves, and of those, how many are full 10 man squads? From a list building POV, fielding them all at 10 men bumps the point cost of the squads up quite a bit. Dev squads are OK bang/buck when looking at 5 man squads. If you need to pay for the extra 5 bolter guys just to soak fire, how good do they remain? Paying for the full squads is going to make some formations prohibitively expensive.
Looking at how GW has gone with recent detachments and formations I would like to get something that is useful but yet within the fluff. And the fluff says that Space Marines work in units of companies with support from the armoury, the veteran company and the scout company too form strike forces.
Building a company formation would be expensive as fu**, but GW have some formations that are expensive, just see the Skitarii War Cohort, minimum is 1965 points with smallest units and no upgrades. Just as a reference I have my Imperial Fist 5th company list, going as true you can to fluff with captain, chaplain, command squad, 6 tactical, 2 assault, 2 devastator and 3 dreadnoughts and includes 6 rhinos and 2 razorbacks is 3000 points.
With that I would really like to have formations that follows the fluff but still is something that people would field. So some suggestions:
Tactical Formation, maybe 3 tactical squads. Formation gets that support fire Tau have (help with overwatch) for squads in formation.
Assault Formation, 2 unit of assault marines, assault centurions or bikes. No really good buff for this formation in my head, I like too shoot and don't use assault squads a lot.
Devastator Formation, 2 units of devastator or centurion devastator. Thinking buff be something like signum effect for whole squad to increase use of devastator squads.
HQ formation, captain, chaplain, command squad.
Dreadnoughts formation. 1-3 Dreadnoughts of any type.
This can then become an Astartes Battle Company that is 1 HQ form, 2 Tactical form, 1 Assault form, 1 Devastator form, 0-1 Dreadnought form. As long as everyone have same chapter tactic they will get a bigger buff to everyone in it.
Too that some support formations based on the Chapter organization. Suggestions:
Librarium.
1-2 Librarians.
Armoury.
1 Techmarine (or MotF), Servitors, 1-4 Tanks of TFC.
Scout support.
1-4 Scout Squads or Scout bikes.
Veterans
0-1 HQ, 1-4 Sternguard, Vanguard or Terminators.
Yeah, and some formations in formations for veteran company, scout company and reserve company.
Long post, but just remember that silly formations is a thing now. A company sized formations isn't Apocalypse anymore, it's GW s new thing.
And yeah, I kind of overlooked some units, mostly with wheels or wings... but the post was already long
Popped into my local store and grabbed my Kataphran destroyers today (yay) and found out they were told by their GW rep not to replenish Codex Space Marines. A good sign, fir sure!!
Talys wrote: Popped into my local store and grabbed my Kataphran destroyers today (yay) and found out they were told by their GW rep not to replenish Codex Space Marines. A good sign, fir sure!!
Yeah, They pulled the Strikforce bundle on the webstore yesterday too, first it was listed no longer available, now the link I posted earlier is a 404.
Making room for new stuff?
Let's hope so!
It feels close! I'm not sure I've been this excited about a codex/model release for quite a long time. And if the rumor of a 3 week release is true, that would be great: it means at least 3 new models, probably closer to 5, maybe more!
June will be a good new toy month, lol. I will never catch up with the painting, hahaha.
Talys wrote: Popped into my local store and grabbed my Kataphran destroyers today (yay) and found out they were told by their GW rep not to replenish Codex Space Marines. A good sign, fir sure!!
Yeah, They pulled the Strikforce bundle on the webstore yesterday too, first it was listed no longer available, now the link I posted earlier is a 404.
Making room for new stuff?
Let's hope so!
Leth wrote: It will be interesting to see what happens to marines, chapter tactics, and their decurion style formations. Hopefully they make tacs worth taking.....
Unfortunately I think the Codex Astartes fluff is going to bite marine players in the butt. Nearly every Power Armor formation in the game right now is simply too expensive to run, because most of them require multiple ten man squads. The new formations from the Khorne vs. Ultras are INSANE, but so expensive that you shouldn't expect to field them outside of Apocalpyse games.
who doesnt have multiple 10 man squads? tac marines are damn useful.
We might have them from a modeling standpoint. For usefulness? They make excellent Sternguard or LotD or Command Squads or Devastators...
They're useful for anything BUT being Tactical Marines.
I think the last time a Tac Marine was useful in 40k (as in, actually a desirable unit, not FOC filler) was back in very early 3rd Edition.
It's all in the arms race. Everything got bigger, beefier, and tougher. Suddenly, the glorified submachinegun doesn't feel so useful when you're shooting a tank that's going to drive over you, a giant robot that's going to squish you, a jetfighter that you have no chance of shooting down, or the super-duper-magical invisible dudes that roll fifty hundredteen dice, or the hyper advanced species that just gets back up when you kill it.
The other problem with Tacs is that you have 1 heavy weapon and 2 special weapons, which is so stupid, because you end up with 1 long range shooter and 2 medium range shooters, and 7 guys lined up to die in their place. It's not as bad now that we can combat squad them out though. But even then, 1 long range shooter doesn't need 4 expensive babysitters to eat pot shots.
Tacs were good in 4th with the two in 5 for heavy + special. They are also good in the ultra marines tactics.
I think what tactical marines(and most marines) suffer from is they are priced as jack of all trades but don't do anything well enough to be specialists that can get the job done. Fire dragons blow up vehicles and heavy infantry, it's what they do. There is no real space marine equivalent that has rules and weapons that make it so it can fulfill that role. Think about the units that get taken. Grab cents, they have a role that they excel at. Scouts, they excel at taking objectives and holding them for cheap, stern guard bring ammo that is useful in all situations as well as a dedicated role. Bikes, bring enough special weapons and mobility to fill a role as well.
I think what is necessary is to identify the primary role that marines are going to occupy and then have them get rules that support that. I look at the storm raven/tactical formation. I really like it as a concept. Here we have tactical marines providing support and other measures to get the specialized units into their roles while still maintaining the ability to score the mission.
So maybe something like 10 man units get a free upgrade, or a discount on a transport. Give them something that supports their taking of objectives, like fire at bs2 while gone to ground. Just a lot of different things that could be done to reinforce that role. Same with terminators, maybe something like "the bulwark" where units getting cover saves from terminators get +1 cover to represent them being at the front obsorbing the fire as they advance into the storm". I think stuff like that would be awesome to see, bring the thematic aspect of the game to the table while increasing the variety.
Personally I think the rules and combinations in the dark Angels book are absolutely fantastic. I think they got a little to focused on the anti chaos aspect and instead should have just done general rules(which they have since fixed in most of the regular books). The warhead and abilities the units have are directly tied to what makes sense in the fluff. they just got all the points wrong by like 5~10 per model.
I've been drop podding 80-90 marines in drop pods and doing well with them. 90 marines are hard to kill. Combat Squad them for 18 units and you can do a lot....
Leth wrote: Tacs were good in 4th with the two in 5 for heavy + special. They are also good in the ultra marines tactics.
I think what tactical marines(and most marines) suffer from is they are priced as jack of all trades but don't do anything well enough to be specialists that can get the job done. Fire dragons blow up vehicles and heavy infantry, it's what they do. There is no real space marine equivalent that has rules and weapons that make it so it can fulfill that role. Think about the units that get taken. Grab cents, they have a role that they excel at. Scouts, they excel at taking objectives and holding them for cheap, stern guard bring ammo that is useful in all situations as well as a dedicated role. Bikes, bring enough special weapons and mobility to fill a role as well.
I think what is necessary is to identify the primary role that marines are going to occupy and then have them get rules that support that. I look at the storm raven/tactical formation. I really like it as a concept. Here we have tactical marines providing support and other measures to get the specialized units into their roles while still maintaining the ability to score the mission.
So maybe something like 10 man units get a free upgrade, or a discount on a transport. Give them something that supports their taking of objectives, like fire at bs2 while gone to ground. Just a lot of different things that could be done to reinforce that role. Same with terminators, maybe something like "the bulwark" where units getting cover saves from terminators get +1 cover to represent them being at the front obsorbing the fire as they advance into the storm". I think stuff like that would be awesome to see, bring the thematic aspect of the game to the table while increasing the variety.
Personally I think the rules and combinations in the dark Angels book are absolutely fantastic. I think they got a little to focused on the anti chaos aspect and instead should have just done general rules(which they have since fixed in most of the regular books). The warhead and abilities the units have are directly tied to what makes sense in the fluff. they just got all the points wrong by like 5~10 per model.
Yes, very true. This is why the ideal loadouts are a bunch of shooters, a bunch of close combat, etc. -- or at least enough that the other guys don't feel like a tax. Who wants one lascannon and 9 guys picking their noses because they're out of range?
I think the last time a Tac Marine was useful in 40k (as in, actually a desirable unit, not FOC filler) was back in very early 3rd Edition.
It's all in the arms race. Everything got bigger, beefier, and tougher. Suddenly, the glorified submachinegun doesn't feel so useful when you're shooting a tank that's going to drive over you, a giant robot that's going to squish you, a jetfighter that you have no chance of shooting down, or the super-duper-magical invisible dudes that roll fifty hundredteen dice, or the hyper advanced species that just gets back up when you kill it.
The other problem with Tacs is that you have 1 heavy weapon and 2 special weapons, which is so stupid, because you end up with 1 long range shooter and 2 medium range shooters, and 7 guys lined up to die in their place. It's not as bad now that we can combat squad them out though. But even then, 1 long range shooter doesn't need 4 expensive babysitters to eat pot shots.
Uh, not having two Specials is one of the primary issues. If they had two specials I'd actually start using them to supplement Bikers, but that's not available.
Maybe Tactical Marines/Devastator will be able to take a special or heavy weapon on every model!
Or not.
I'm only sad we won't be using a army list section at the back of the book anymore, with all the points costs and such. Going to have to flip pages until the Battlescribe updates.
Then again, I'd be happy as long as my Centurion Star doesn't go up in points, Tigurius is still good, and Drop Pods go Fast attack. Drop Podding a Culuxes into an enemy seer council is going to make me soooo happppy.
It's all in the arms race. Everything got bigger, beefier, and tougher. Suddenly, the glorified submachinegun doesn't feel so useful when you're shooting a tank that's going to drive over you, a giant robot that's going to squish you, a jetfighter that you have no chance of shooting down, or the super-duper-magical invisible dudes that roll fifty hundredteen dice, or the hyper advanced species that just gets back up when you kill it.
The other problem with Tacs is that you have 1 heavy weapon and 2 special weapons, which is so stupid, because you end up with 1 long range shooter and 2 medium range shooters, and 7 guys lined up to die in their place. It's not as bad now that we can combat squad them out though. But even then, 1 long range shooter doesn't need 4 expensive babysitters to eat pot shots.
Uh, not having two Specials is one of the primary issues. If they had two specials I'd actually start using them to supplement Bikers, but that's not available.
I'm including the Sergeant taking a combi.
So basically, you can have 5 man troop with plasma, combi plasma, 3 junk; or 10 man squad with plasma, combi plasma, lascannon; or 5 man troop with combi-plasma, lascanon. Only the first makes any sense at all, because in #2 and #3, you end up with 2 special weapons with wildly different ranges as the heavy weapon. This is what I've always hated about tactical squads. Splitting them up helps a little, but then you have 4 guys + 1 heavy weapon (what a waste of 4 guys).
The tactical squad should allow in a 5 man squad 2 heavy or special weapons (and sergeant can take a combi); or in a 10 man squad, 4 heavy or special weapons (and sergeant can take a combi). Then, they would actually get enough dice to be worth blowing the 70 points base.
I actually find that now tacticals without any upgrades is the best choice, I leave heavy weapons to my devastators. And then again I play DA who can make bolters slitely more usefull.
I'd like a squad of nothing but special weapon Marines a la 30k support squads, may be stick them in Elites rather than Troops? You can kind of do this with Sternguard kitted up with Combis but they are an expensive option.
Looky Likey wrote: I'd like a squad of nothing but special weapon Marines a la 30k support squads, may be stick them in Elites rather than Troops? You can kind of do this with Sternguard kitted up with Combis but they are an expensive option.
They make that. It is called the Command Squad. You can run five Special Weapons if you want. The BA one comes stock with the Company Champion and Apothecary, but as of right now, the regular SM one can be all Special Weapon Marines. I run a squad of four Specials and an Apothecary for added survivability.
Looky Likey wrote: I'd like a squad of nothing but special weapon Marines a la 30k support squads, may be stick them in Elites rather than Troops? You can kind of do this with Sternguard kitted up with Combis but they are an expensive option.
They make that. It is called the Command Squad. You can run five Special Weapons if you want. The BA one comes stock with the Company Champion and Apothecary, but as of right now, the regular SM one can be all Special Weapon Marines. I run a squad of four Specials and an Apothecary for added survivability.
Yeah, the issue is that command squads are HQ. In the current FOC you're stuck with taking (some) troops, and you're limited to just 2 HQ per CAD, so it's a double whammy. Not only are HQ slots highly valuable, but a command squad with 5 special weapons costs quite a bit (say, 175+) -- and then you're just below the range of Centurion squads, which don't take up an HQ, and can be far more powerful (and durable).
To have parity with Eldar, Space Marines would like a troop unit where every model can be loaded up with mid-range special weapon, so that every bolter is a conscious choice rather than a forced "tax". Or, like Cult Mechanicus, where there is a good, heavy ranged shooter as a troop (Kataphron), or like the Skitarii where every troop model has an option to have a pretty great weapon (like Haywire). I'm not suggesting that Space Marines get *exactly* the same thing as Eldar, Skitarii, or Cult -- just that there is something available for the tactical marines in the troop slot (or some other unit that's troop) where you can pick a cohesive set of weapons, so that you're not paying 14 points each for a bunch of guys who have no purpose other than to die instead of the guy with the better gun.
Incidentally, I believe the Blood Angels Assault marines are a pretty good compromise, since you can get 3 special weapons in 5 models (2 + combi), and they can have a free drop pod or rhino; and the squad cost is cheap. If space marines have something like this for troops, RAWR.
Looky Likey wrote: I'd like a squad of nothing but special weapon Marines a la 30k support squads, may be stick them in Elites rather than Troops? You can kind of do this with Sternguard kitted up with Combis but they are an expensive option.
They make that. It is called the Command Squad. You can run five Special Weapons if you want. The BA one comes stock with the Company Champion and Apothecary, but as of right now, the regular SM one can be all Special Weapon Marines. I run a squad of four Specials and an Apothecary for added survivability.
Yeah, the issue is that command squads are HQ.
No...they are slotless, opened up by taking a Captain, Librarian, or Chaplain or a character Captain/Librarian/Chaplain. And if they do go in a slot like the Blood Angels ones are, they will go in Elites, no HQ.
If tacticals could double-tap with their bolters the way tac marines can in 30k with "Fury of the Legion", it would be pretty nice. At least you could get some use out of your meat shields on the turn they come out of their drop pod. Then again, that just exacerbates some of the problems I always had with 40k: maneuver and positioning isn't as important when so many things can appear from nowhere and obliterate you, and one player consistently doesn't get to use like 25% of their units because I-Go-U-Go and powerful alpha strikes ensure they're removed from the board before you get to do anything.
I know not completely related to tactical sqds, but I think the HB needs to be bumped to S6. It might just become a little more popular.
As for tacticals, on paper they sound good. Good stats, the bolter is decent as a basic weapon (compare to shuriken catapult), frag and krak grenades, etc. It's just that people rely on special/hvy weapons to do damage due to what they are likely to face on the table. But how is a special weapon "special" if they become so rampant throughout a sqd?
tactical marines should be given some bonuses for doing their jobs, and I think formations are the only way around this. I'd recommend a free transport (rhino or pod, bare bones...can buy upgrades) for each 10 man sqd and give them either salvo 2/4 (like DA dakka banner) or reroll misses when holding an objective. Of course the formation would likely need 3 tac sqds, 1 assault sqd, 1 dev sqd to unlock this.
General Kroll wrote: So what are they going to do to the assault marines to make us all want to buy more. I already have a good number of them...
Apparently, they're gaining the ability to take grav pistols, and to swap out their chainsword for another pistol, in addition to getting an increase in the number of special pistols they can take per squad.
As a Blood Angels player, I am extremely butthurt... again...
I think Tac squads could really use the split fire rule. Why is it that when Mr Lascannon shoots at a tank across the board, the bolter dudes can't shoot the chumps 12" in front of them? And vice versa, the lascannon shouldn't be forced to shoot the chumps if there's a nice tank nearby to shoot at.
General Kroll wrote: So what are they going to do to the assault marines to make us all want to buy more. I already have a good number of them...
I would say it's all about bringing it up to date on how the sprue are made these days. Separate the arm and weapons and put in what is “missing”, i.e. flamer and gravpistol.
The kit that's out now is arm and boltpistol in one. A pain if magnatize alot. I had to cut of a hand or two just to get the plasma, flamer, boltpistol option on two guys.
Tannhauser42 wrote: I think Tac squads could really use the split fire rule. Why is it that when Mr Lascannon shoots at a tank across the board, the bolter dudes can't shoot the chumps 12" in front of them? And vice versa, the lascannon shouldn't be forced to shoot the chumps if there's a nice tank nearby to shoot at.
Honestly that rule should be baseline for everybody and not a special rule. I still remember the days when only Space Wolves got it on Long Fangs, so they were better in every regard to regular Devastators.
As always I still refuse to play but I'm always wanting to oggle the pretty figures. Even if there are too many Marines already.
General Kroll wrote: So what are they going to do to the assault marines to make us all want to buy more. I already have a good number of them...
Apparently, they're gaining the ability to take grav pistols, and to swap out their chainsword for another pistol, in addition to getting an increase in the number of special pistols they can take per squad.
As a Blood Angels player, I am extremely butthurt... again...
Why are you butthurt? I have had Blood Angels ever since Rogue Trader, and absolutely love the chapter (ok, I've taken big breaks from them, as long as 10 years, but I always come back). They have so many distinct bits that can be used for power armor squads, like shoulder pads, backpacks, legs, jump packs -- more than any other faction. Unlike space wolves and grey knights, should you choose, you can use your 90% of your blood angels collection to play regular space marines! Just add in the generic SM kits, paint 'em like the rest of your blood angels, and then, Boom! you have 2 factions, with 1 collection. Where else in 40k can you do that (ok fine, you can do so with Dark Angels too...)?
The compatibility between BA and SM parts is also almost 100%. Meaning, you can take parts from a command, devastator, or sternguard squad and stick them onto Blood Angels. You can also easily convert Ravenwing into BA themed bikes. And, you can use the new ASM and Dev parts for your Blood Angels! : D
General Kroll wrote: So what are they going to do to the assault marines to make us all want to buy more. I already have a good number of them...
Apparently, they're gaining the ability to take grav pistols, and to swap out their chainsword for another pistol, in addition to getting an increase in the number of special pistols they can take per squad.
As a Blood Angels player, I am extremely butthurt... again...
Yeah I got some nice second hand ones on eBay last week, so I feel your pain. On the other hand loading up disposable shock troops with expensive weapons might not be the most efficient use of points.
Still will be interested to see the new kits. Always liked assault marines, so there's always room in my heart for more.
General Kroll wrote: So what are they going to do to the assault marines to make us all want to buy more. I already have a good number of them...
Apparently, they're gaining the ability to take grav pistols, and to swap out their chainsword for another pistol, in addition to getting an increase in the number of special pistols they can take per squad.
As a Blood Angels player, I am extremely butthurt... again...
Why are you butthurt? I have had Blood Angels ever since Rogue Trader, and absolutely love the chapter (ok, I've taken big breaks from them, as long as 10 years, but I always come back). They have so many distinct bits that can be used for power armor squads, like shoulder pads, backpacks, legs, jump packs -- more than any other faction. Unlike space wolves and grey knights, should you choose, you can use your 90% of your blood angels collection to play regular space marines! Just add in the generic SM kits, paint 'em like the rest of your blood angels, and then, Boom! you have 2 factions, with 1 collection. Where else in 40k can you do that (ok fine, you can do so with Dark Angels too...)?
The compatibility between BA and SM parts is also almost 100%. Meaning, you can take parts from a command, devastator, or sternguard squad and stick them onto Blood Angels. You can also easily convert Ravenwing into BA themed bikes. And, you can use the new ASM and Dev parts for your Blood Angels! : D
Surely it's self evident that the problem isn't anything to do with the kit and everything to do with BA being cast as "the Assault Chapter" and then, and not for the first time, Codex Marines get more options that make them better/more flexible than the named chapter with its own Codex that's supposedly a specialist in that sort of warfare?
Space Marine Assault Squad Kit5 man box. 2 sprues. New grav pistols. New head style. The entire squad can field alternate pistols, multiple are provided. Special weapons are still 1 each. Chainswords and bolt pistols default options remain. Did not see shields, special cc weapons, or sgt options. Possible they might be on a separate sprue.
Space Marine Assault Squad Datacards: Space Marines New Codex: Space Marines Space Marine HQ Command Tanks:
new Dark Angels Battleforce Codex Dark Angels 2015: Codex. Dark Angels eBook: Datacards Dark Angels:
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Azreal13 wrote: Surely it's self evident that the problem isn't anything to do with the kit and everything to do with BA being cast as "the Assault Chapter" and then, and not for the first time, Codex Marines get more options that make them better/more flexible than the named chapter with its own Codex that's supposedly a specialist in that sort of warfare?
Well, it's unlikely that vanilla marines will get a formation that will allow them to take 1 HQ, 1 Troop and 6 Drop Pods, for example. Or a charge from drop pod formation. Or any number of cool things that are still uniquely Blood Angels. I'm just fine with vanilla codex being somewhat stronger -- it's just recognition that in 7e, powerful cc types are generally less useful than powerful shooty types, because there are ways for people to stay out of cc. I personally love that I can model 1 chapter and get dual use out of it.
By the way, totally off topic, but what would be really cool would be a chapter having a drop pod with a special ability that could squish smaller units if it lands on them. So, drop pod lands, if it's not an MC, the pod on 1-2 is wrecked, on 3-6, it squishes the unit it lands on Bubble-wrap buhhhh-bye!
Surely it's self evident that the problem isn't anything to do with the kit and everything to do with BA being cast as "the Assault Chapter" and then, and not for the first time, Codex Marines get more options that make them better/more flexible than the named chapter with its own Codex that's supposedly a specialist in that sort of warfare?
*Ding ding ding ding*
Yep, just irritated that I started playing 40k a year/year and a half ago, with what I thought was THE close combat army, only to find that the army was going to rapidly be outpaced in it's own supposed area of expertise. I find myself getting routinely slaughtered by Space Wolves and Khorne Daemonkin in close combat, while still lacking the tactical flexibility of most other armies.
But, enough whining!
As someone who also owns a ton of unpainted vanilla Space Marines, I'm pretty psyched that I might have some interesting (and powerful) options for my other power-armoured hooligans.
By the way, totally off topic, but what would be really cool would be a chapter having a drop pod with a special ability that could squish smaller units if it lands on them. So, drop pod lands, if it's not an MC, the pod on 1-2 is wrecked, on 3-6, it squishes the unit it lands on Bubble-wrap buhhhh-bye!
IMO, ALL tactical marines needs to have the "Legendary Marksmen" special rule from the Forgeworld Raptors chapter tactics. This would perfectly represent lethality of an Astartes firing a boltgun in short, controlled, well-aimed- bursts and would actually make bolters worth a damn, as that would give them more potential targets. I'd much prefer that over having 9 idiots doing nothing, while a lascanon fires or 8 idiots, who does nothing but act as a bullet sponge while the sergeant and the meltagunner shoots at that 1 tank.
It would also mean that your tactical bolters would actually pose a potential threat to MC, rather than shooting helplessly while you only care about how the plasma gunner rolls.
How about heavy bolters being D weapons - then they will see table time. And assault marines (if they have a new head on the sprue) might have a D CC weapon - that is in their helmet. They ram the target.
And bikes should get D weapon tires and get a 'run' em over' attack. This attack is so powerful a bike can ride up and over an IK.
Nvs wrote: What good would dual wielding pistols do?
If you can swap a chainsword for a bolt pistol - potentially double the firepower of the squad at close range for cheap (assuming that it costs a lot less than taking a plasma pistol).
Zewrath wrote: IMO, ALL tactical marines needs to have the "Legendary Marksmen" special rule from the Forgeworld Raptors chapter tactics. This would perfectly represent lethality of an Astartes firing a boltgun in short, controlled, well-aimed- bursts and would actually make bolters worth a damn, as that would give them more potential targets. I'd much prefer that over having 9 idiots doing nothing, while a lascanon fires or 8 idiots, who does nothing but act as a bullet sponge while the sergeant and the meltagunner shoots at that 1 tank.
It would also mean that your tactical bolters would actually pose a potential threat to MC, rather than shooting helplessly while you only care about how the plasma gunner rolls.
why on earth do people put heavy weapons in TAC squads in the first place, then complain that their sub optimal load out is sub optimal...
tac squads maybe get special weapons, CCW, or meltabombs, ive never even considered putting a heavy weapon in there.
Nvs wrote: What good would dual wielding pistols do?
If you can swap a chainsword for a bolt pistol - potentially double the firepower of the squad at close range for cheap (assuming that it costs a lot less than taking a plasma pistol).
Nvs wrote: What good would dual wielding pistols do?
If you can swap a chainsword for a bolt pistol - potentially double the firepower of the squad at close range for cheap (assuming that it costs a lot less than taking a plasma pistol).
BrookM wrote: Will be interesting to see if they do anything with Centurions as well.
I don't think it would be anything super exciting, if they change much at all. They won't make Centurions weaker, because then people would stop buying an expensive kit. They won't make the stronger, because they're already pretty good. And the kit already has all the parts in it, so it's not like they can give them a different weapon option -- at least, without updating the kit, and there are much older kits that need a refresh.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the down side... no mention of any overpriced clampack plastic heroes :(
I would have loved just... two Ok, 3. I am greedy.
Zewrath wrote: IMO, ALL tactical marines needs to have the "Legendary Marksmen" special rule from the Forgeworld Raptors chapter tactics. This would perfectly represent lethality of an Astartes firing a boltgun in short, controlled, well-aimed- bursts and would actually make bolters worth a damn, as that would give them more potential targets. I'd much prefer that over having 9 idiots doing nothing, while a lascanon fires or 8 idiots, who does nothing but act as a bullet sponge while the sergeant and the meltagunner shoots at that 1 tank.
It would also mean that your tactical bolters would actually pose a potential threat to MC, rather than shooting helplessly while you only care about how the plasma gunner rolls.
why on earth do people put heavy weapons in TAC squads in the first place, then complain that their sub optimal load out is sub optimal...
tac squads maybe get special weapons, CCW, or meltabombs, ive never even considered putting a heavy weapon in there.
A min sized squad with a lascanon and a razorback isn't uncommon despite not being optimal.
Also not uncommon is combat squad a PC/ML group and have the melta/plasma and combi weapons in the rhino that goes forward. Hardly top efficient but not uncommon either.
Besides, your reply isn't even remotely related to anything in my post, so let's keep list benchmarking discussions out of this?
Zewrath wrote: IMO, ALL tactical marines needs to have the "Legendary Marksmen" special rule from the Forgeworld Raptors chapter tactics. This would perfectly represent lethality of an Astartes firing a boltgun in short, controlled, well-aimed- bursts and would actually make bolters worth a damn, as that would give them more potential targets. I'd much prefer that over having 9 idiots doing nothing, while a lascanon fires or 8 idiots, who does nothing but act as a bullet sponge while the sergeant and the meltagunner shoots at that 1 tank.
It would also mean that your tactical bolters would actually pose a potential threat to MC, rather than shooting helplessly while you only care about how the plasma gunner rolls.
why on earth do people put heavy weapons in TAC squads in the first place, then complain that their sub optimal load out is sub optimal...
tac squads maybe get special weapons, CCW, or meltabombs, ive never even considered putting a heavy weapon in there.
A min sized squad with a lascanon and a razorback isn't uncommon despite not being optimal.
Also not uncommon is combat squad a PC/ML group and have the melta/plasma and combi weapons in the rhino that goes forward. Hardly top efficient but not uncommon either.
Besides, your reply isn't even remotely related to anything in my post, so let's keep list benchmarking discussions out of this?
I personally run 5-man crusader squads with 1 heavy and 1 special weapon inside a razorback, it's very good
BrookM wrote: Will be interesting to see if they do anything with Centurions as well.
I don't think it would be anything super exciting, if they change much at all. They won't make Centurions weaker, because then people would stop buying an expensive kit.
Actually that's very possibly what they'll do, assuming you subscribe to the "rules are manipulated to sell models" theory, which I don't simply because there's too much evidence to the contrary.
I've seen somewhere, I think buried in the CHS case thread somewhere, that the overwhelming percentage of a new kit's sales figures are within a comparatively short time after release.
It is quite feasible, given those two pieces of information, that Centurions will be nerfed into the ground in favour of boosting something else new, or whose figures need a shot in the arm.
Or they could get buffed because the designer rolls a 6 on the morning he planned to write the rules.
Man I really hope assault marines become viable. I have really wanted to have a bunch of assault marines in my Black Templar list but never got any. Now I may have to.
Azreal13 wrote: the "rules are manipulated to sell models" theory
Most likely this is what they actually do, they just don't really know what is good and not.
They couldn't shoot so far wide of the mark so regularly (both in terms of over and under doing things) and still be able to produce work to the standard they do. For all the well deserved criticism, there are plenty of things in the game that aren't widely discussed because they're simply just reasonable.
I've long held the theory that their are essentially two philosophies at work in the studio, the "try and keep everything on a similar level so the game remains playable" group and the "waaagh! Pew pew! giant Robots! Random is the best" group. The books and model releases and the relative power levels are simply representative of who got their hands on which project.
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Icculus wrote: Man I really hope assault marines become viable. I have really wanted to have a bunch of assault marines in my Black Templar list but never got any. Now I may have to.
I wouldn't hold your breath, there's every chance they could get better, but they'll still be an assault unit in a game that fundamentally favours shooting.
Azreal13 wrote: They couldn't shoot so far wide of the mark so regularly (both in terms of over and under doing things) and still be able to produce work to the standard they do. For all the well deserved criticism, there are plenty of things in the game that aren't widely discussed because they're simply just reasonable.
I've long held the theory that their are essentially two philosophies at work in the studio, the "try and keep everything on a similar level so the game remains playable" group and the "waaagh! Pew pew! giant Robots! Random is the best" group. The books and model releases and the relative power levels are simply representative of who got their hands on which project.
