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So WS still have hit and run.

Raven Guard is seriously pretty weak...

I guess if you're making just a lot of Assault Marines and Vanguard they're decent, and giving your Scouts or other Infiltrating units Shrouded and possible Stealth on Turn 1 is nice... but is it better than giving them UM Doctrines, Bolter Drill, or even 6+ FNP? I dunno.

Maybe it's useful as an "anti alpha strike" list, where you load up on Camo Cloak Scouts for a turn 1 4+ guaranteed even outside of cover, guaranteed 2+ in any cover (even 5+), which makes you much more able to weather things like Drop Pods, Nemesis Strike Force or Dark Eldar Turn 1 DS, or Skitarii scout forward lists (if Night Fight, Camo Cloak Raven Guard has a 2+ in any cover and a 4+ outside of cover even against a Omnispex).

While part of me is going to miss the fleet and re-rolling snap shots, I think I can deal with the new doctrines.

Is it just me, or does the wording on the UM doctrines imply is works for all UM things in your army, including vehicles?

Seriously, has GW ever snuck in a new kit in White Dwarf without talking about it? That doesn't seem to be how they operate. Hell that would actually demonstrate some cleverness that I just don't think they possess.

 SickSix wrote:
Seriously, has GW ever snuck in a new kit in White Dwarf without talking about it? That doesn't seem to be how they operate. Hell that would actually demonstrate some cleverness that I just don't think they possess.

Actually, I think we have seen terrain before it was released in WD.

 Nevelon wrote:
While part of me is going to miss the fleet and re-rolling snap shots, I think I can deal with the new doctrines.

Is it just me, or does the wording on the UM doctrines imply is works for all UM things in your army, including vehicles?

It sure does. "All Ultramarine Models". Vehicles are models. Ultramarines are probably the best chapter tactics by far now, other than WS for Bikespam armies.


The big thing here is the example under the intro section:

If an Ultramarines Tactical Squad is joined by an Imperial Fists Chaplain, it counts as neither an Ultramarines unit nor an Imperial Fists unit.

No more mixing and matching CTs. Can't just bring a WS character on a Bike and give Space Wolf TWC Hit and Run.

Requizen wrote:
The big thing here is the example under the intro section:

If an Ultramarines Tactical Squad is joined by an Imperial Fists Chaplain, it counts as neither an Ultramarines unit nor an Imperial Fists unit.

No more mixing and matching CTs. Can't just bring a WS character on a Bike and give Space Wolf TWC Hit and Run.

Where was this careful thought to avoid cheese when they did the Eldar codex? WWP wraithguard and Fortuned Shadowfield...

 pretre wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
Seriously, has GW ever snuck in a new kit in White Dwarf without talking about it? That doesn't seem to be how they operate. Hell that would actually demonstrate some cleverness that I just don't think they possess.

Actually, I think we have seen terrain before it was released in WD.

Before they did the switch to WD weekly, we saw the Black Guard/Executioners for Dark Elves a month early--albeit in a very small snapshot.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

Requizen wrote:
The big thing here is the example under the intro section:

If an Ultramarines Tactical Squad is joined by an Imperial Fists Chaplain, it counts as neither an Ultramarines unit nor an Imperial Fists unit.

No more mixing and matching CTs. Can't just bring a WS character on a Bike and give Space Wolf TWC Hit and Run.

Where was this careful thought to avoid cheese when they did the Eldar codex? WWP wraithguard and Fortuned Shadowfield...

Yeah seriously

 Nevelon wrote:
Is it just me, or does the wording on the UM doctrines imply is works for all UM things in your army, including vehicles?

This would only be the case if the vehicle had "Chapter Tactics" as a special rule (which they presently don't -- also the drop pods in the new codex don't). Though I do see what you mean, in the 6e book, it read, "Models in this detachment..." under Ultramarines combat doctrines, and that's always been understood to mean models with the Chapter Tactics SR, not all models in the detachment.

Requizen wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
While part of me is going to miss the fleet and re-rolling snap shots, I think I can deal with the new doctrines.

Is it just me, or does the wording on the UM doctrines imply is works for all UM things in your army, including vehicles?

It sure does. "All Ultramarine Models". Vehicles are models. Ultramarines are probably the best chapter tactics by far now, other than WS for Bikespam armies.


The big thing here is the example under the intro section:

If an Ultramarines Tactical Squad is joined by an Imperial Fists Chaplain, it counts as neither an Ultramarines unit nor an Imperial Fists unit.

No more mixing and matching CTs. Can't just bring a WS character on a Bike and give Space Wolf TWC Hit and Run.

Actually, it means that White Scars Librarian palling around with Lysander or Marneus Calgar for hit and run wouldn't work, since both have the chapter tactics special rule, but if that same librarian is with Draigo or Logan Grimnar, it will work just fine, since neither Draigo nor Logan have the Chapter Tactics special rule to counter act the White Scars version.

Requizen wrote:
It sure does. "All Ultramarine Models". Vehicles are models. Ultramarines are probably the best chapter tactics by far now, other than WS for Bikespam armies.

I would disagree. Why do some models have the Chapter Tactics special rule, and not others, then? And in the old book, it read, under Devastator Doctrine, "Models in this detachment may re-roll To Hit with Snap Shots". Do you play with that allowing vehicles (without Chapter Tactics) to reroll to hit with snap shots in 6e ct rules?

Except in the context of that restriction it is referring to chapters that have chapter tactics within the book. You can still join allied units and retain all of your chapter tactics but it is nice to see that little addition. White scars still having hit and run is a surprise, although not unwanted.

Tactical doctrine is better than expected since it occurs in both the phases. Throw an ic in the unit and now they get it if the you it is a tactical, same with assault or dev units. Quite interesting to see how it works out. Need to see the formations exact wording since we have obviously missed some fine details.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Leth wrote:
Except in the context of that restriction it is referring to chapters that have chapter tactics within the book. You can still join allied units and retain all of your chapter tactics but it is nice to see that little addition. White scars still having hit and run is a surprise, although not unwanted.

Tactical doctrine is better than expected since it occurs in both the phases. Throw an ic in the unit and now they get it if the you it is a tactical, same with assault or dev units. Quite interesting to see how it works out. Need to see the formations exact wording since we have obviously missed some fine details.

Also if you read the combat tactics section whenever it refers to models or units only those with the combat tactics special rule are being referenced.

You know, I'm beginning to wonder if Iron Hands are really good now, in a Company. I always liked Ultramarines before, because of the combat doctrines, and granted, getting them twice is cool.

But using the doctrine even once is really enough to change the course of the game, and perhaps FNP is worth giving up a second combat doctrine use...

Note that Flesh is Weak is buffed too. Old version was "best FNP version", new one is +1 to FNP.

 SickSix wrote:
Seriously, has GW ever snuck in a new kit in White Dwarf without talking about it? That doesn't seem to be how they operate. Hell that would actually demonstrate some cleverness that I just don't think they possess.

Yeah, the plastic Trygon was in a white dwarf a few months early, people worked out it wasn't the FW one. They actually did it quite a bit at one point iirc.

Bolter and chainsword guy with the codex!!!! He says point drops across the field!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/308934-new-codex-space-marines-news-rumors/page-140

 Talys wrote:

Requizen wrote:
It sure does. "All Ultramarine Models". Vehicles are models. Ultramarines are probably the best chapter tactics by far now, other than WS for Bikespam armies.

I would disagree. Why do some models have the Chapter Tactics special rule, and not others, then? And in the old book, it read, under Devastator Doctrine, "Models in this detachment may re-roll To Hit with Snap Shots". Do you play with that allowing vehicles (without Chapter Tactics) to reroll to hit with snap shots in 6e ct rules?

How do you define an Iron Hand vehicle to get their bonus? It seems to me any argument that gets used to tag a vehicle for the IH CT can also be used to define a model as an UM one.

Ok, got the book in hand.

So, in no particuliar order :

-Gauntlet of Ultramar lost Unwieldy. Still not specialist. So that's base 5A at I5 S8. Calgar loses his grenades if taking the Armor of Antilochus though.
-Grav Cannon with amp is NOT 7 but 4 melta bombs.
-Sicarius gained Furious Charge. Dropped by 2 melta bombs.
-Tigurius unchanged and did NOT gained rending has previously said.
-Cassius unchanged
-Telion no longer an upgrade, but IC. Gained one HP, costs 10 melta bombs
-Chronus gained one hp, treated as a passenger if tank goes kaboom. Otherwise unchanged. Upgrade vehicule to character smile.png
-Khan unchanged
-Vulkan unchanged
-Shrike unchanged
-Django Unchained
-Lysander got his weapons changed from S10 to +6S. Weird.
-Rest have been discussed.


-Terminator captain is no longer a separate entry. CM is an upgrade. Nothing else changed
-Libby, Chaplain unchanged
-Techmarine : Costs +3 Melta Bombs, comes stock with a power axe, +1HP +1CT. Basically the new MotF but at - 5 melta bombs. Motf as disappeared.

-Scout HAVE MARINE STATLINE without point modification. Yes, you read that right.
-Crusader squads have been written of the book. No, that one's not true. Sorry for that templars smile.png
-Command squads are elite now, -2 melta bombs
-Assault Centurions dropped by 5 melta bombs (unit), 1 per model. Veteran Sergeant is NOT stock now, an upgrade of 2 melta bombs. (still comes cheaper by 3 smile.png)
-Vanguard Veterans : power weapon and lightning claw upgrade now ONLY COSTS ONE MELTA BOMB PER LEVEL. Heroïc intervention let reroll one or two dice when charging, not taking malus for multiple charges.
-Sternguards went down by 2 melta bomb (as it should have been in the previous dex)
-I confirm that Dreads have 4 attacks. Cannot take multiple drop pods for units of dread. They have chapter tactics, ninja boost for the UM.
-Contrary to what was said, the Legion of the Damned deep striking is not buffed. Completely unchanged.
-Terminator -5 melta bombs per unit, one per model. TH/SS now cost 2, has said.
-Assault squads comes stock without Jump Packs, but in the final same PPM.
-Assault bikes went down by one melta bomb per model.
-Land speeders went down by one melta bomb, as well some of their weapon upgrade (to lazy to check line by line)
-Stormtalon now comes with a bonus 6" if zooming. Keeps the strafing run. Weapon upgrades cost vastly reduced.
-Dev squads can now take a cherub. Give them the silly look special rules, as well as rerool to hit. For one model. One use only. Yay. Auspex now decreases the cover save by one (12" range).
-Dev centurions have the same price tweaks as assault. Grav cannon is + one melta bomb on them, for a total of five. Costlier for them than for other squads.
-Tank squads are as previously said, with special rules.
-Vindicator lost the stock Storm Bolter, lost one melta bomb per model.

AAAAAAAAAAAAND that's all folks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dariokan

How much is a melta bomb these days..?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the feth? Scouts are uber again?

PICSorGTFO

(At least post a picture of the book in hand )

Sounds exciting.

The Lysander thing is probably because they want to step away from Set modifiers.

-Grav Cannon with amp is NOT 7 but 4 melta bombs.

Hola. Now that is awesome. No reason not to take it in the Tactical squad now. Crap, gotta buy more devastator boxes :X

-Scout HAVE MARINE STATLINE without point modification. Yes, you read that right.

OMG. What Changed?! Don't leave us hanging. So cruel!!!

-Command squads are elite now, -2 melta bombs

Sweet!

-I confirm that Dreads have 4 attacks. Cannot take multiple drop pods for units of dread. They have chapter tactics, ninja boost for the UM.

Whoa, that's very nice

-Stormtalon now comes with a bonus 6" if zooming. Keeps the strafing run. Weapon upgrades cost vastly reduced.

Hmmm....

Thank you!!!!

Did I miss a post about the tank squad bonuses (other than Land Raider)?

BakAG wrote:
Ok, got the book in hand.

So, in no particuliar order :

-Gauntlet of Ultramar lost Unwieldy. Still not specialist. So that's base 5A at I5 S8. Calgar loses his grenades if taking the Armor of Antilochus though.
-Grav Cannon with amp is NOT 7 but 4 melta bombs.
-Sicarius gained Furious Charge. Dropped by 2 melta bombs.
-Tigurius unchanged and did NOT gained rending has previously said.
-Cassius unchanged
-Telion no longer an upgrade, but IC. Gained one HP, costs 10 melta bombs
-Chronus gained one hp, treated as a passenger if tank goes kaboom. Otherwise unchanged. Upgrade vehicule to character smile.png
-Khan unchanged
-Vulkan unchanged
-Shrike unchanged
-Django Unchained
-Lysander got his weapons changed from S10 to +6S. Weird.
-Rest have been discussed.


-Terminator captain is no longer a separate entry. CM is an upgrade. Nothing else changed
-Libby, Chaplain unchanged
-Techmarine : Costs +3 Melta Bombs, comes stock with a power axe, +1HP +1CT. Basically the new MotF but at - 5 melta bombs. Motf as disappeared.

-Scout HAVE MARINE STATLINE without point modification. Yes, you read that right.
-Crusader squads have been written of the book. No, that one's not true. Sorry for that templars smile.png
-Command squads are elite now, -2 melta bombs
-Assault Centurions dropped by 5 melta bombs (unit), 1 per model. Veteran Sergeant is NOT stock now, an upgrade of 2 melta bombs. (still comes cheaper by 3 smile.png)
-Vanguard Veterans : power weapon and lightning claw upgrade now ONLY COSTS ONE MELTA BOMB PER LEVEL. Heroïc intervention let reroll one or two dice when charging, not taking malus for multiple charges.
-Sternguards went down by 2 melta bomb (as it should have been in the previous dex)
-I confirm that Dreads have 4 attacks. Cannot take multiple drop pods for units of dread. They have chapter tactics, ninja boost for the UM.
-Contrary to what was said, the Legion of the Damned deep striking is not buffed. Completely unchanged.
-Terminator -5 melta bombs per unit, one per model. TH/SS now cost 2, has said.
-Assault squads comes stock without Jump Packs, but in the final same PPM.
-Assault bikes went down by one melta bomb per model.
-Land speeders went down by one melta bomb, as well some of their weapon upgrade (to lazy to check line by line)
-Stormtalon now comes with a bonus 6" if zooming. Keeps the strafing run. Weapon upgrades cost vastly reduced.
-Dev squads can now take a cherub. Give them the silly look special rules, as well as rerool to hit. For one model. One use only. Yay. Auspex now decreases the cover save by one (12" range).
-Dev centurions have the same price tweaks as assault. Grav cannon is + one melta bomb on them, for a total of five. Costlier for them than for other squads.
-Tank squads are as previously said, with special rules.
-Vindicator lost the stock Storm Bolter, lost one melta bomb per model.

AAAAAAAAAAAAND that's all folks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dariokan

Ugh. I thought SM had enough favoritism as is. /CSM rant

 BrookM wrote:
How much is a melta bomb these days..?

3rd prime number. And no, 0 and 1 are not prime numbers.

I repeat it not my info but a guy named Dariokan at Bolter and chainsword!! if true eldar and necrons cry...

So, 5 pts, why is it so hard to just say that these days? FFS.

So, my Salamander based DiY army with Vulkan is more potent than ever with FNP added

I like the scouts boost, now my assault scouts inside a land speeder storm will get some use

 ashikenshin wrote:
I like the scouts boost, now my assault scouts inside a land speeder storm will get some use

Does anyone know what the scouts boost is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 shasolenzabi wrote:
So, my Salamander based DiY army with Vulkan is more potent than ever with FNP added

But FNP only against flamer weapons.

So dev centurions with Grav cannons are ten points cheaper now, since you don't have to take the sergeant upgrade?

I'll take it.

I wonder what warlord trait Tigurius has now if it's not the shooting one? Unless he's not including warlord traits,which is a possibility,

Edit: scouts are ws and bs 4 if he's correct.