New Adeptus Astartes - Page #46 Chaplain and Libby

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**Slayer-Fan123**

Talys wrote:
mercury14 wrote:So the old Space Marine codex was so very underpowered that GW needed to hand them 550 free points a match to make them on par with the rest of 40k?

If you took a 2 captains, 30 tactical marines, 10 devastators, and 10 assault marines -- an Adeptus Astartes Company -- yes. Using the 6e codex, a Space Marine Company of any chapter sucked balls. In 7e, it's a lot better, because taking that full company includes their vehicles.

In the 6e codex, if you took a specialized Space Marine battleforce and combined the best units from the codex with allies guaranteed to give you by far the most broken mechanic of the game (Invisibility), or spammed the very best unit in the codex (grav bikes), you had a pretty good chance against even the toughest enemies. Who, by the way, are taking the very best units in THEIR codex.

What formations and formation bonuses provide is a mechanism by which individual units of the very best models have to compete with groups of potentially inferior models. It's a superior way of list-building, because it discourages spamming the best unit, since the formation it self is generally not spammy.

Personally, I would much rather take or face the free razorbacks, the tacticals, assault, and devastators, plus another thousand points or so of upgrades, other stuff, and allies, than just the best units in the game. Likewise, I am happy that Eldar got lots of buffs on many units, because playing against wave serpents, you know, gets old. And in-before-someone-complains... Scatter bikes are WAY easier to deal with than Wave Serpent spam. Gimme the scatter bikes ANY day.

TheNewBlood wrote:Has anyone been looking at the whole picture? Space Marines have been made significantly more powerful in this new book. Maybe not to the level of Eldar, and to a lesser extent Necrons and Mechanicus, but that ties into having to balance those armies against everyone else. Anyone who was expecting that level of power was just wishlisting and destined for disappointment.

People are also ignoring the fact that Space Marines can Battle Brother other very good factions: Imperial Knights, Skitarii, and Grey Knights. It's all fine to say, "as a single faction..." However, Xenos players have very few battle brother choices, whether they like it or not! How would those Tau like to be Battle Brothers with a faction with big stompy titans, or a faction that has haywire on every freaking die roll? Be able to share psychic powers, transports, and so on? But, but, what if they had to ALLY to get that? Would they care?

Put on the other shoe -- how would you like the Tau or Orks or Tyranid to have that capability? Would you care that they had to ally in order to get it?

TheNewBlood wrote:Becoming more elite within the current game mechanics would not solve their problems. Hey would still die at the same rate. Instead we are now able to play a much more tactical game with our marines, maneuvering, maximizing our special rules in list building. Most of e options remained. Ravenguard got a boost IMO for the lists they want to run. Couldn't assault after scouting anyway it just put them closer to eat more fire power, especially if going second. I will take improved survival anyday.

Marines ARE tougher than Imperial Guard. They have a better statline, and ATSKNF is not a silly nothing of a special rule. The core "problem" -- if you want to call it that -- is that weapons have gotten better, and power armor isn't enough to protect you against weapons that far outstrip its protection.

Really, NOTHING is good enough to give you protection unless you get invulnerable saves, guaranteed cover, or invisibility. And none of those would b a good thing to give to a basic troop in the game. Even if you gave Space Marines 2+ armor, all you'd accomplish is more expensive marines that died to all the things with AP2 that they die to now. They only thing they'd win easily against is crappy MSU fire. Besides, just because a Space Marine is a super HUMAN doesn't mean it can walk up to a giant Eldar Titan, a C'Tan, or a Riptide and stab it in the foot, and go ha ha. And clearly, Space Marines in Power Armor are NOT the most powerful units that the Imperium, or even the Adeptus Astartes have. I mean, Terminators, Centurions, Sanguinary Guard, Dreadnoughts, Nemesis Dreadknights, Imperial Knights...

If you want to get silly analyzing the fluff, the whole idea is ridiculous anyhow. There is no way 1,000 space marines can be as effective as 1,000,000,000 Imperial Guard (that's billion) -- and the ratio is probably worse than that (1 SM to 1 million IG). I mean, heck, they'd all have to be Imperial Knights in titan sized suits to warrant that kind of ratio.

1. OR they could've fixed the core problem of those units. Just making vehicles free isn't fixing the problem when you want to do something like a CAD.
2. Except you completely miss the point about Eldar. Serpentspam isn't the issue. It's the level of balance. There's literally no point to any other troop choice than Scatterbikes. Admit it.
3. I shouldn't HAVE to ally with ANYTHING. Codices are supposed to be standalone forces. You're telling us that we need to buy other armies. That's not how it's supposed to work. Allies should compliment a force, not fix the glaring holes.
4. Nobody is asking for Marines to solo monstrous creatures. Quit the strawman and actually answer the complaints.

**Matt.Kingsley**

The Necron one can have 1+ (no specified maximum), however the Eldar one is 1-3.

It's likely that multiples will be allowed in one Detachment for SM, but we simply don't know at this point.

**Talys**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. OR they could've fixed the core problem of those units. Just making vehicles free isn't fixing the problem when you want to do something like a CAD.
2. Except you completely miss the point about Eldar. Serpentspam isn't the issue. It's the level of balance. There's literally no point to any other troop choice than Scatterbikes. Admit it.
3. I shouldn't HAVE to ally with ANYTHING. Codices are supposed to be standalone forces. You're telling us that we need to buy other armies. That's not how it's supposed to work. Allies should compliment a force, not fix the glaring holes.
4. Nobody is asking for Marines to solo monstrous creatures. Quit the strawman and actually answer the complaints.

1. As I and other people have stated, this would not help the plight of the basic space marine. In 40k there are vehicles that can crush them, big weapons that can vaporize them, and creatures that dwarf space marines in every way and can just squish them. Space marines are better-than-basic infantry, and no infantry is meant to survive the large machines of war.

2. I would say that Windriders are the best troop choice, but not necessarily scatter lasers as their weapon. What has that got to do with anything? They still either have the choice to die or jink.. And anyways, Eldar are millions of years more advanced than humans, so they get some nice bikes. It's not like you can win with just the nice bikes. And they're still way weaker and harder to play than Wave Serpents, in skill-less noob spam armies.

3. Well, look. You're buying 1850 points. So it's not like it's costing you more. And I'm not saying that you CAN'T play space marines by themselves; I'm saying if SM were as powerful as Eldar by themselves, with battle brothers, they'd be an unstoppable force. Which would be terrible. It's your choice whether you want to ally or not -- it's a fact that allies make Space Marines and Eldar more powerful; avail yourself of the option or not. It's part of the game.

4. It's not a straw man argument at all. Half the game can destroy anything without the types of saves that are associated with monstrous creatures, characters with special stuff, or psychic abilities. Terminators have great armor. Even invulnerable saves! Guess what, they still crumple like paper. To "fix" space marines in the sense of making every one of the 1000 of the chapter heroic, you would literally need to make them so powerful that they'd cost a hundred points a model. And then since Aspect Warriors are even MORE powerful, those would cost like, two hundred points a model. And what would be the point? Because ultimately, a Titan or a fortification going kaboom, still should kill a Space Marine with no effort.

You know, kinda like Green Beret charges Abrams, Abrams rolls over Green Beret, movie ends. It doesn't matter how genetically enhanced and awesome the Green Beret is, he was never meant to go charge the tank. That's why he and his other 4 buddies have their own (smaller) tank! Which now, they don't have to pay separately for. Yay. Or you know, you can just say screw the elite forces, and take your own tank. Or 3, and then go kaboom and leave a big crater. Yay again!

Happy times.

**casvalremdeikun**

If Windriders are the best, Grav Bikers aren't that far behind. Being able to reliably deal with practically everything is a pretty nice boon. High Armor Save - Fire the Twin-linked Bolters on the bike, Low Armor Save - Fire your whatever many Grav shots at them. Paired with Ko'sarro Khan and the White Scars Chapter Tactics, you have scouting bikes with an easy-to-make Jink save (I can't remember if they will have a 3+ or a 4+), you can put these bikes right in range for the Grav or the bolters. Bolters may suck, but when they are twin-linked they actually aren't that bad. I should know, I was twin-linking every bolt weapon known to man with my Sentinels of Terra. I might actually run a Bike Squad instead of an Assault Squad if the Gladius Strike Force allows it. Gotta get me some Grav on the board (I have plenty of Melta and Plasma, no Grav so far).

**Talys**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
If Windriders are the best, Grav Bikers aren't that far behind. Being able to reliably deal with practically everything is a pretty nice boon. High Armor Save - Fire the Twin-linked Bolters on the bike, Low Armor Save - Fire your whatever many Grav shots at them. Paired with Ko'sarro Khan and the White Scars Chapter Tactics, you have scouting bikes with an easy-to-make Jink save (I can't remember if they will have a 3+ or a 4+), you can put these bikes right in range for the Grav or the bolters. Bolters may suck, but when they are twin-linked they actually aren't that bad. I should know, I was twin-linking every bolt weapon known to man with my Sentinels of Terra. I might actually run a Bike Squad instead of an Assault Squad if the Gladius Strike Force allows it. Gotta get me some Grav on the board (I have plenty of Melta and Plasma, no Grav so far).

Yes indeed. Saying that Tacticals "need to be fixed" is not much different from saying that Gaurdians "need to be fixed". Relative to Bikes and Windriders, they are just not as good for a troop choice. For that matter, Dire Avengers, too. If you look at troops generally as a potential tax to getting better units, Bikes and Winders are not a tax at all, whereas DA, Guardians, Tactical Marines, and to a lesser extent, Scouts, are things that most people don't want except as a way of unlocking better stuff.

On the other hand, with the new Company, once you toss in a Razorback, the whole equation changes. A 5 man tactical with a Razorback -- now it's no longer a tax.

In a way, it's a clever fix. Not everyone will like it, for sure. A lot of people just won't want to paint the models. It's kind of MSU-ish, except not quite.

**H.B.M.C.**

Yodhrin wrote:
That rather depends on whether you view lists as gaming or metagaming - for me it is the latter. I play to win once we put models down on the tabletop...

So you put no thought into creating a list?

Making lists is part of the game. Has been since they started making army lists for us to use. To imply that it's 'meta-gaming' strikes me as naive.

**hotsauceman1**

List building is very much part of the game and a skill you must acquire. Those that ignore that are likely to NOT be that good of characters.

**Talys**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yodhrin wrote:
That rather depends on whether you view lists as gaming or metagaming - for me it is the latter. I play to win once we put models down on the tabletop...

So you put no thought into creating a list?

Making lists is part of the game. Has been since they started making army lists for us to use. To imply that it's 'meta-gaming' strikes me as naive.

I could be wrong, but if Yodrin is like me, the "meta-game" is making lists that you never play (some, never model). I only have like, 10,000 of those.

**casvalremdeikun**

Talys wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
If Windriders are the best, Grav Bikers aren't that far behind. Being able to reliably deal with practically everything is a pretty nice boon. High Armor Save - Fire the Twin-linked Bolters on the bike, Low Armor Save - Fire your whatever many Grav shots at them. Paired with Ko'sarro Khan and the White Scars Chapter Tactics, you have scouting bikes with an easy-to-make Jink save (I can't remember if they will have a 3+ or a 4+), you can put these bikes right in range for the Grav or the bolters. Bolters may suck, but when they are twin-linked they actually aren't that bad. I should know, I was twin-linking every bolt weapon known to man with my Sentinels of Terra. I might actually run a Bike Squad instead of an Assault Squad if the Gladius Strike Force allows it. Gotta get me some Grav on the board (I have plenty of Melta and Plasma, no Grav so far).

Yes indeed. Saying that Tacticals "need to be fixed" is not much different from saying that Gaurdians "need to be fixed". Relative to Bikes and Windriders, they are just not as good for a troop choice. For that matter, Dire Avengers, too. If you look at troops generally as a potential tax to getting better units, Bikes and Winders are not a tax at all, whereas DA, Guardians, Tactical Marines, and to a lesser extent, Scouts, are things that most people don't want except as a way of unlocking better stuff.

On the other hand, with the new Company, once you toss in a Razorback, the whole equation changes. A 5 man tactical with a Razorback -- now it's no longer a tax.

In a way, it's a clever fix. Not everyone will like it, for sure. A lot of people just won't want to paint the models. It's kind of MSU-ish, except not quite.

The problem with the new Battle Company and all of its free transports is that it doesn't leave enough room for all of my fun Crimson Fist toys, like my Sternguard squad(now with Bolter Drill on Sternguard Ammo and ObSec because of Pedro Kantor) and Pedro Kantor (now with FNP and hopefully a better armor save!).

**Talys**

@casvalremdeikun -- yeah, I understand what you mean. There are tough choices indeed!

I'm happy to try them out though.

**casvalremdeikun**

Talys wrote:
@casvalremdeikun -- yeah, I understand what you mean. There are tough choices indeed!

I'm happy to try them out though.

I plan to run the majority of a Demi-Company (may or may not use the Command Squad or the Dreadnought). It seems like a character can't be substituted for the Captain or Chaplain, which sucks. In my case, technically Pedro is the First Company Captain in addition to being the Chapter Master. There is no real way to run him alongside the Demi-Company as of right now. And that blows since he just got frickin' FNP so running him alongside his Honour Guard(who have better armor because reasons) isn't suicide. I will figure something out, I guess.

**Leth**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Talys wrote:
@casvalremdeikun -- yeah, I understand what you mean. There are tough choices indeed!

I'm happy to try them out though.
I plan to run the majority of a Demi-Company (may or may not use the Command Squad or the Dreadnought). It seems like a character can't be substituted for the Captain or Chaplain, which sucks. In my case, technically Pedro is the First Company Captain in addition to being the Chapter Master. There is no real way to run him alongside the Demi-Company as of right now. And that blows since he just got frickin' FNP so running him alongside his Honour Guard(who have better armor because reasons) isn't suicide. I will figure something out, I guess.

I think the guy said that you can substitute any of the characters into the demi-company or any of the formations as long as it fits(might not be right on that one)

**spartiatis**

While i am all hungry for leaks and spoilers, i find it quite pointless dedicating 4-5 pages arguing about the power of a formation we have not yet to exactly read. For all i know, it might give only free Rhinos or Drop Pods or make us pay the cost for each Razorback upgrade other than the HB.
Since we are talking 10+ razors, 55 pts razors is a very different beast than 75 pts razors

**Leth**

spartiatis wrote:
While i am all hungry for leaks and spoilers, i find it quite pointless dedicating 4-5 pages arguing about the power of a formation we have not yet to exactly read. For all i know, it might give only free Rhinos or Drop Pods or make us pay the cost for each Razorback upgrade other than the HB.
Since we are talking 10+ razors, 55 pts razors is a very different beast than 75 pts razors

It's already confirmed hat you have to pay for all upgrades.

I just can't wait to see if we can swap out named characters in the formations or not. Would be nice if we could.

**casvalremdeikun**

Leth wrote:
casvalremdeikun wrote:
Talys wrote:
@casvalremdeikun -- yeah, I understand what you mean. There are tough choices indeed!

I'm happy to try them out though.
I plan to run the majority of a Demi-Company (may or may not use the Command Squad or the Dreadnought). It seems like a character can't be substituted for the Captain or Chaplain, which sucks. In my case, technically Pedro is the First Company Captain in addition to being the Chapter Master. There is no real way to run him alongside the Demi-Company as of right now. And that blows since he just got frickin' FNP so running him alongside his Honour Guard(who have better armor because reasons) isn't suicide. I will figure something out, I guess.

I think the guy said that you can substitute any of the characters into the demi-company or any of the formations as long as it fits(might not be right on that one)

I have a devious grin on my face(think the Grinch) assuming this is true. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my Captain (that little gak has been through so much and has NEVER been a casualty), but Pedro is just so damn cool (even better with FNP). I really like his model too (need to rebase it though). If it is not the case, I probably won't be running poor Pedro since I love the ObSec Demi-Company. I guess I will have to see how flexible the Demi-Company really is.

I just realized I forgot to ask the Warseer posters if Dorn's Arrow counts as a Bolt weapon.

EDIT: I just thought of something. If CM is an upgrade to Captain, theoretically a CM character could be used in place of a Captain if a Captain character or CM non-character could. LAWYER'D!

**Talys**

Leth wrote:
spartiatis wrote:
While i am all hungry for leaks and spoilers, i find it quite pointless dedicating 4-5 pages arguing about the power of a formation we have not yet to exactly read. For all i know, it might give only free Rhinos or Drop Pods or make us pay the cost for each Razorback upgrade other than the HB.
Since we are talking 10+ razors, 55 pts razors is a very different beast than 75 pts razors

It's already confirmed hat you have to pay for all upgrades.

I just can't wait to see if we can swap out named characters in the formations or not. Would be nice if we could.

Yeah!! Being able to put named characters into the Chapter Master makes sense and is cool.

The confirmation of not including upgrades -- I'm not sure where it came from, though I read it here, I think, from someone that just reported it. Still, 550 points of free stuff is a lot! 750 would be more, yes

Aren't we greedy? hahaha.

**Crazyterran**

I could see myself sacrificing a few Razorbacks for Bikes / Dev Centurions. Even if I took away both Assault Squads and a Devastator Squad, that's still 385 in free transports...

**Bartali**

mercury14 wrote:
Okay so in an 1850 list, SM armies can get actually TWENTY free tanks, correct? Even just ten free tanks is completely ridiculous. For one, every single SM player is going to use a 10-tank Razorback screen from now on, giving a cover save to the rest of their army. There aren't enough turns in the game to counter it.

WIth 10-20 free tanks they don't even need a shooting phase, they can just roll onto all the objectives and there's basically nothing anyone can do.

Welcome to the age of spam and cookie cutter armies. If you thought it was bad before, you had no idea.

A prediction. You will almost never see this formation on the table.

Why ? Your average shop/club player isn't going to be able to put 10+ hulls down on the table.

Your not going to see if from tournament players either who would put down the money for this. Why ? Eldar Jetbikes/Warp Spiders shoot Razorbacks off the table, and in return the Space Marine formation doesn't put out that much damage.

**Talys**

Crazyterran wrote:
I could see myself sacrificing a few Razorbacks for Bikes / Dev Centurions. Even if I took away both Assault Squads and a Devastator Squad, that's still 385 in free transports...

Yeah, the way to look at it though, is how many points you need for your army.

In the context of the bikes, for example, the assault squad is 70 points; the razorback is worth 55. So, for 90 points, you get 5 assault marines plus a lascannon razorback. You just can't get that mileage out of the equivalent points in bikes. So, if you NEED the bikes, yeah, of course, dump the ASM, but otherwise...

*puts on thinking cap* Maybe if we squeeze reaalllyyy tight, the bikes will fit into the razorback?

The devastator squad could be dicier, partly because we're not sure what the default weapons are -- with heavy bolters, at base cost, they might be ok to leave them as is, or it might be better to dump them and put the points into the dev cent. At least we have choices right?

This is another way to look at it -- since bikes are definitely not a tax and ONE dev cents squad is definitely useful, if you can take a named character in place of the captain, your real Gladius Maximus Tax is...

- 30 tactical marines - 70 * 6 =420
- 5 devastators - 70
- Chaplain - 90

For which you get 7 razorbacks, worth 385 points, that you can upgrade to lascannon for another 140 points. So 720 points total. That's your overhead.

Onto that you bolt 1 devastator centurion squad, 2 bike squads and your hero. That actually looks very healthy as a starting point!

And it's not like those 30 tactical marines are useless, either.

**casvalremdeikun**

Talys wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
And it's not like those 30 tactical marines are useless, either.

Though they are close

A UM or IF Demi/Battle Company is going to be pretty mean though, with the buffs to the Tactical Marines(REROLL ALL THE ONES!), and it gets even better if you can take Marneus Calgar as the Demi/Battle Company Champion.

**j31c3n**

Is Kardan Stronos a character yet? Goddamn.

**Talys**

casvalremdeikun wrote:
Talys wrote:
Crazyterran wrote:
And it's not like those 30 tactical marines are useless, either.

Though they are close A UM or IF Demi/Battle Company is going to be pretty mean though, with the buffs to the Tactical Marines(REROLL ALL THE ONES!), and it gets even better if you can take Marneus Calgar as the Demi/Battle Company Champion.

Even better, actually. All models in the detachment get reroll 1's, but tacticals get to reroll all failed hits! Since you can do that twice, it's gold with the Dev Cents.

Remember, those tactical squads also have grenades, too, and with rerolls to hit, it's something. With extra points at the end, you can throw in some special weapons too, and they are at least a threat.

**casvalremdeikun**

I don't know if this was known yet, but on the GW online store, all of the Space Marine factions have been relabeled as Adeptus Astartes: X (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Space Marines, and Space Wolves). Hints at SW and GK getting a Codex ~~Trademark Proofing~~ Update?

**angelofvengeance**

Too soon for the SW and GK since they've not been out for that long. Maybe next year lol.

**casvalremdeikun**

angelofvengeance wrote:
Too soon for the SW and GK since they've not been out for that long. Maybe next year lol.

Tell that to Imperial Knights. I am not saying they would actually do it, but then again, GW.

**MajorWesJanson**

If they put out new kits for GK, I'd be fine with a new book.

**ORicK**

The only thing i wonder is if i have enough transports...
I have about 6 drop pods and a few rhinos, but the number i need now i don't have.

And that is probably exactly what GW is going for: selling transports again. The last edition was bad for transports, the edition one before that most IG never came out of theirs.
Now Space Marine transports are back again.

**casvalremdeikun**

ORicK wrote:
The only thing i wonder is if i have enough transports...
I have about 6 drop pods and a few rhinos, but the number i need now i don't have.

And that is probably exactly what GW is going for: selling transports again. The last edition was bad for transports, the edition one before that most IG never came out of theirs.
Now Space Marine transports are back again.

That was the point I made a page or so ago. They know everyone has Tacticals and FA/HS coming out their butts, but not necessarily the transports needed to field the Battle Company with free transports. So now they are looking at banking a boatload of money from people that want to get the free transports. And a parking lot of Rhinobacks or drop pods is going to be pretty fun to throw down.

**ORicK**

A parking lot!
A good idea for a "40k edition contemporary" scenery piece!

I too have loads of infantry.
On 28mm scale i find tanks (including transports) out of place. So i usually play infantry themed armies with the exception of the fact that i have some drop pods (they fit 28mm scale warfare).
And allthough many of these armies are Apocalypse size nowadays (i collect and play since 1990), i still have very few transports and vehicles.

And i am not going to go buy loads of them now either...

**casvalremdeikun**

ORicK wrote:
A parking lot!
A good idea for a "40k edition contemporary" scenery piece!

I too have loads of infantry.
On 28mm scale i find tanks (including transports) out of place. So i usually play infantry themed armies with the exception of the fact that i have some drop pods (they fit 28mm scale warfare).
And allthough many of these armies are Apocalypse size nowadays (i collect and play since 1990), i still have very few transports and vehicles.

And i am not going to go buy loads of them now either...

Me neither. So far the only "guaranteed" purchases for me are a box of Devs (to complete my ML and LC squads), 5 or so bikes (for a squad of Grav Bikes), and a box of Tacticals+Razorback(for another Combi-Melta/Meltagun squad). And the book, of course. Gonna have to put in a few hours of overtime to pay for it, but oh well.