Good news! Target Locks do nothing now. Wait...

what do you guys think of the other faq mods? I'm really happy about stealths finally getting the stealth usr! Though the target lock neutering means no fusion from now on..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a couple of other comments from the other thread were that kroot hounds are now nerfed as kroot will never be used as an assault unit due to getting shot before they strike - also sniper teams might be viable with their 3+ cover.

troy_tempest wrote:what do you guys think of the other faq mods? I'm really happy about stealths finally getting the stealth usr! Though the target lock neutering means no fusion from now on..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a couple of other comments from the other thread were that kroot hounds are now nerfed as kroot will never be used as an assault unit due to getting shot before they strike - also sniper teams might be viable with their 3+ cover.

I see 3 problems. Stealth generators no longer work for extra drone’s in stealth units and now Stealth units can be shot at from over 36” range making them less durable. Plus the smart missiles system rules are in the FAQ in two places and contradict each other.

The problem I always had with stealth field was that it was pretty useless in the context of 18' burst cannon. Cover going to 5+ coupled with the individuals claiming cover rather than the unit is a major buff for tau vs hordes - my ig opponent will be most annoyed!

troy_tempest wrote:what do you guys think of the other faq mods? I'm really happy about stealths finally getting the stealth usr! Though the target lock neutering means no fusion from now on..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
a couple of other comments from the other thread were that kroot hounds are now nerfed as kroot will never be used as an assault unit due to getting shot before they strike - also sniper teams might be viable with their 3+ cover.

Twas me on the sniper teams, and with the loss of Target Lock I think I am very wrong. They will be competing with solo 88s and so will not be taken.

OT though with the Look out Sir being allocated to any model within 6", if an IC kills enough models within coherency, does he automatically leave the unit? If not, will his may leave the unit be overridden by the must move into coherency in the next move?

Cheers

Andrew

PS GW still processing my order.

Pottsey wrote:
I see 3 problems. Stealth generators no longer work for extra drone’s in stealth units and now Stealth units can be shot at from over 36” range making them less durable. Plus the smart missiles system rules are in the FAQ in two places and contradict each other.

I may be wrong, but why do you guys think that the drones don't benefit from the stealth field generators.
From first sentence of both stealth and shrouded special rule: (A unit that contain at least one model with this special rule...)

Tau should do well in the new 3rd deployment option where their deployment zone is 24" deep.

Morale tests are far less brutal. Regroup at 25%, less with an ic, and within 6".

Overwatch is good news, especially on units with flamers.

Fire warriors have a 36" threat range for a single tap, 21" for a double tap.

Not being able to charge after an outflank hurts other outflankers more than it hurts kroot.

Last but not least if Tau want a real counter assault unit they can get it from allies.

Disruption pods are now useless, right? Or rather, all skimmers get the jink for free anyway.

Blacksun filters now just negate night fight, which is a rule in all the basic missions.

It seems easier for missiles to glance light vehicles like rhinos to death with hull points.

The assault range of DE and Orks from open-topped transports is reduced, which can help Tau. They now get an average of 19", max of 24", instead of 23.5 average, 27 max (with waagh for orks).

Allies could be really good for an army with basically no assault capability. I'm thinking about painting up all those Black Reach slugga boyz I have lying around and running a couple of big freebooter mobs.

Photon Grenades now give stealth....cool?

Flavius Infernus wrote:Disruption pods are now useless, right? Or rather, all skimmers get the jink for free anyway.

IIRC obscured save for vehicles is still 4+. So Disruption pods remain useful.

Target locks for suits no longer work. This is pretty big nerf to Broadsides. For whatever reason, Target locks for Vehicles and Infantry still work (??). Amount of sense that makes is relatively small.

All suits can now make their assault move after Deep strike. Suits have Acute Sense...which they can't use. Except Stealth suits, which is nice for them. Stealth suits now have 4+ cover save for default, 2+ if in cover. They are probably marginally more useful now.

^Yes vehicle obscured is still 4+. However, it then goes to say that any wargear derived cover save is always 5+.

EMP grenades now very useful, if a bit overcosted.

this blasted iPod won't let me view PDFs.. What's the deal with emp?

Vespids got pretty good as well!

1) Deep Strike in 5+ area terrain, automatically passing dangerous terrain due to new skilled ___ rules. Combine with PF fish to ensure accuracy

2) Fire at MEQ unit nearby, hopefully picking off specials lurking at the back of the unit. Preferably with markerlights support. In rare situations receive 2+ cover due to night fighting.

3) On your opponent turn, go to ground for +2 cover in area terrain, resulting in 3+ cover

4) You can still overwatch after going to ground

5) You're I5 and go first

I'd gladly pay their current point cost for this, and I'm definitely going to experiment with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

troy_tempest wrote:this blasted iPod won't let me view PDFs.. What's the deal with emp?

Glance a land raider 4 times and it dies, period.

Andy06r wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

troy_tempest wrote:this blasted iPod won't let me view PDFs.. What's the deal with emp?

Glance a land raider 4 times and it dies, period.

Right, it's not a change in the FAQ, but rather the change in the vehicle rules. Because you never need more than a 3+ to hit a vehicle and all you need is 4 glances max, a unit of fire warriors assaulting with EMP grenades is now a huge threat to any non-flyer vehicle.

I guess it is time to check my crisis suit loadouts.

I wonder if my fishgoats would want me to recruit some allies..

With the changes in 6th, what do you think of the following:

HQ

Shas'el
: Plasma Rifle
: Cyclic ion Blaster
: Targeting Array
: Bonding Knife
: Hard Wired Drone Controller
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker
: Iridium Armor
: Blacksun Filter
: Shield Drone X2

Shas'vre X2 (Total)
: Plasma Rifle
: Missile Pod
: Targeting Array
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker


ELITES

Shas'ui X 2 (Total)
: Plasma Rifle
: Missile Pod
: Targeting Array
: Team Leader
: Bonding Knife
: Hard Wired Drone Controller
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker
: Hard Wired BlackSun Filter
: Shield Drone X2

Shas'ui X 2 (Total)
: Fusion Blaster
: Plasma Rifle
: Targeting Array
: Team Leader
: Bonding Knife
: Hard Wired Drone Controller
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker
: Hard Wired BlackSun Filter
: Shield Drone X2


FAST ATTACK

Pathfinder Team X4
: Devil Fish
: Disruption Pods


TROOPS

Fire Warrior Team X10
: Team Leader
: Blacksun Filter
: Bonding Knife

Fire Warrior Team X10
: Team Leader
: Blacksun Filter
: Bonding Knife


HEAVY SUPPORT

Broadside
: Shas'ui
: Advanced Stabilization System
: Team Leader
: Hard Wired Drone Controller
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker
: Hard Wired BlackSun Filter
: Shield Drone X2

Sniper Drone Team X2

Hammerhead
: Rail Gun
: Two Burst Cannons
: Disruption Pods
: Blacksun Filter
: Multi Tracker


Should be about 1498.

acekevin8412 wrote:^Yes vehicle obscured is still 4+. However, it then goes to say that any wargear derived cover save is always 5+.

Being obscured gives you a cover save equal to the cover save of the terrain you are obscured by. So being obscured by a ruin gives you 4+ but being obscured by trees gives you 5+.

right off the bat the Bodyguard are STILL overcosted regardless of rolling a 6 and picking the target its still too much.

Sniper Drones still suck as a HS slot. They havent changed at all so adding them to a list is strange

10 man FW units are odd... We can regroup under 50% now so why not take a full 12 man squad? No fish for these guys? They will get obliterated in 1 turn.

4 crisis suits is weak.. especially when 2 come with the FB which has balls range.

Im not seeing how this list is any better in 6E than it would be in 5E... It is equally as bad.

Hmmm you can tell how new I am at Tau then huh..

What would you do for 1500 points to maximize the buffs from 6th?

So far im getting to:

Drop the body guards
Drop Sniper Drones
Add +2 FW and give them a fish
Add more suits... should I add another elite slot or just 1 more to the units there, changing the FB guys to fireknife

From what I can tell, there is no Skilled ____ USR, just Skilled Rider. So you don't automatically pass dangerous terrain tests, you just get a reroll.


While looking that up, I also saw the Split Fire USR, which has text almost identical to the 4th Edition Target Lock, down to making a Leadership test.

So...were Tau units supposed to get Split Fire or what?

acekevin8412 wrote:Photon Grenades now give stealth....cool?

Flavius Infernus wrote:EMP grenades now very useful, if a bit overcosted.

Actually, you both need to check the wording again.

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Not trying to start an argument but While the fluff description calls them defensive, Photon grenades are called photon grenades. In 5th they actually referenced the photons as defensive in the BRB which is why they were. 6th ed amd the FaQ fail to do so.

Same for EMP. Emp Grenades are "not" haywires. They have a different name and stats.

Again, not trying to start an argument, rather trying to prevent them. If GW had just done a better job with their FAQ's.



I cover this and some nice things in my Tactica& review thread in this forum. You can find it here:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458910.page" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458910.page

Edit to add URL

focusedfire wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:Photon Grenades now give stealth....cool?

Flavius Infernus wrote:EMP grenades now very useful, if a bit overcosted.

Actually, you both need to check the wording again.

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Not trying to start an argument but While the fluff description calls them defensive, Photon grenades are called photon grenades. In 5th they actually referenced the photons as defensive in the BRB which is why they were. 6th ed amd the FaQ fail to do so.

Same for EMP. Emp Grenades are "not" haywires. They have a different name and stats.

Again, not trying to start an argument, rather trying to prevent them. If GW had just done a better job with their FAQ's.



I cover this and some nice things in my Tactica& review thread in this forum. You can find it here:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458910.page" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458910.page

Edit to add URL

I concede the point for Photon Grenades not being defensive grenades, damn GW, but EMP grenades don't have to be haywire. 3-4 auto Glance and 5-6 auto Pen is a lot more powerful, albeit less reliable than the 2-5 glance and 6 pen of haywire.

focusedfire wrote:

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Actually the main rulebook does mention Tau Grenades. First line of the defensive grenades rules: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau..."

Also the Tau codex does describe photon grenades as defensive grenades so they do grant Stealth against shooting within 8" and deny extra close combat attacks for units charging them.

It doesn't need to come up in the FAQ as the main rulebook and Tau codex already state that they are defensive grenades.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Actually the main rulebook does mention Tau Grenades. First line of the defensive grenades rules: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau..."

Also the Tau codex does describe photon grenades as defensive grenades so they do grant Stealth against shooting within 8" and deny extra close combat attacks for units charging them.

They aren't described as such in the codex though. It's like the Storm Lords staff. It's described in it's fluff as a Staff of Light, but its rules section makes no mention of it being able to be used as such. Same goes for photon grenades.

acekevin8412 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Actually the main rulebook does mention Tau Grenades. First line of the defensive grenades rules: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau..."

Also the Tau codex does describe photon grenades as defensive grenades so they do grant Stealth against shooting within 8" and deny extra close combat attacks for units charging them.

They aren't described as such in the codex though. It's like the Storm Lords staff. It's described in it's fluff as a Staff of Light, but its rules section makes no mention of it being able to be used as such. Same goes for photon grenades.

Tau Armoury, Photon grenades, first line: "A defensive grenade that blinds and disorients attackers with multi-spectral light and a sonic burst."
Main Rulebook, Defensive grenades, first sentence: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau, which emit multi-spectrum light and a sonic burst have dual uses."

How much clearer does it have to be? The description of a defensive grenade is almost word for word identical to the description of a photon grenade.

Only the most stubborn TFG would argue that Photon Grenades do not follow all the rules of defensive grenades from the main rulebook.

Imotekh's Staff of the Destroyer is an, "ancient and ornamental staff of light......" And yet, the majority of the gaming community, from what I have seen, has agreed that the Staff of the Destroyer is a one shot weapon and cannot be used as a staff of light even though it is described as such. Same goes for Tau Photon Grenades. Its the poor differentiation of fluff and rules.

Now before you call me TFG, I myself play Tau and would love to take advantage of this little buff, however, the rules are rules whether they help or not.

acekevin8412 wrote:Imotekh's Staff of the Destroyer is an, "ancient and ornamental staff of light......" And yet, the majority of the gaming community, from what I have seen, has agreed that the Staff of the Destroyer is a one shot weapon and cannot be used as a staff of light even though it is described as such. Same goes for Tau Photon Grenades. Its the poor differentiation of fluff and rules.

Now before you call me TFG, I myself play Tau and would love to take advantage of this little buff, however, the rules are rules whether they help or not.

So despite the main rulebook and the Tau codex describing Photon grenades as defensive grenades you are saying they are not?

GW probably didn't FAQ them because they thought that having Photon grenades be explicitly mentioned as defensive grenades in two different places would be enough.

Only the main book describes them as defensive grenades. Rules-wise, the Tau codex Photon Grenades produce a defensive grenade like effect w/o conferring all the benefits.

This thread is getting side-tracked. I understand and accept that your interpretation is what was intended. However, I like to play the devil's advocate and am a general pessimist, so I'll stick with my interpretation. If you want to continue, feel free to pm me.

Can we agree to disagree?

Moving on, since vehicles can not be glanced to death along with the rapid fire update, it looks like FW can be used for anti AV10-11 duty freeing up suits to focus on MEq/TEq hunting.

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Tau Armoury, Photon grenades, first line: "A defensive grenade that blinds and disorients attackers with multi-spectral light and a sonic burst."
Main Rulebook, Defensive grenades, first sentence: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau, which emit multi-spectrum light and a sonic burst have dual uses."

How much clearer does it have to be? The description of a defensive grenade is almost word for word identical to the description of a photon grenade.

Only the most stubborn TFG would argue that Photon Grenades do not follow all the rules of defensive grenades from the main rulebook.

I think what Malus is pointing to here is an example of what the 6E FAQ's are calling weapons that are "written out in longhand" in the Amendment disclaimer, no?

I can't imagine what else they would mean by "longhand" since nothing in any codex is hand-written. It seems to me that the FAQs are saying that fluff descriptions should count as legitimate rules descriptions on old codexes.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Tau Armoury, Photon grenades, first line: "A defensive grenade that blinds and disorients attackers with multi-spectral light and a sonic burst."
Main Rulebook, Defensive grenades, first sentence: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau, which emit multi-spectrum light and a sonic burst have dual uses."

How much clearer does it have to be? The description of a defensive grenade is almost word for word identical to the description of a photon grenade.

Only the most stubborn TFG would argue that Photon Grenades do not follow all the rules of defensive grenades from the main rulebook.

I think what Malus is pointing to here is an example of what the 6E FAQ's are calling weapons that are "written out in longhand" in the Amendment disclaimer, no?

I can't imagine what else they would mean by "longhand" since nothing in any codex is hand-written. It seems to me that the FAQs are saying that fluff descriptions should count as legitimate rules descriptions on old codexes.

I had skimmed over that little paragraph in the FAQ but yes, this does seem to be an example of one of these "longhand rules". So the FAQ says that unless the FAQ itself says otherwise these weapons follow the rules in the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for the type of weapon they are.

that's a good point andy06r makes about vespid. Being in cover for these guys is a must, and overwatch means meq will think twice before charging. The i10 jump infantry attack could be useful against some lightly armoured targets.

Only problem is they are still competing with suits for the anti-meq role.. and suits are more survivable, have better range and can provide ap2 guns.

OutlawBandit wrote:With the changes in 6th, what do you think of the following:

HEAVY SUPPORT

Broadside
: Shas'ui
: Advanced Stabilization System
: Team Leader
: Hard Wired Drone Controller
: Hard Wired Multi Tracker
: Hard Wired BlackSun Filter
: Shield Drone X2

Sniper Drone Team X2

Should be about 1498.

Too many downsides to A.S.S now and I find you might only move 1 or 2 turns a game so now we have snap fire to shoot while moveing target array seems better over the course of a battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Milisim wrote:right off the bat the Bodyguard are STILL overcosted regardless of rolling a 6 and picking the target its still too much.

Sniper Drones still suck as a HS slot. They havent changed at all so adding them to a list is strange

Sniper Drones have a 2+ cover save now behind cover and 4+ in open and any IC battlesuits joining them gains stealth. Good if you start 2nd and want to give extra cover to a commander.

OK, so based off of True LOS the drone floating above some ruins only gets the 4+ save or does the stand also count for obscurement?

example:
o= drone on stand
h = enemy unit

o
____n____m_______h

Just been giving some more thought to some of the rule changes and realised that we are royally screwed by the changes to Feel No Pain.

As it is now only nullified by Instant Death, the only things we have that are able to nullify it from Marines are Fusion Blasters, Seeker Missiles and Railguns.

If that unit happens to be Plague Marines then only our Railguns will nullify it, yay...

Well, outside of Plasma guns, that's the list of what we used to cope with FNP last edition, so no huge change there. It sucks that plasma became less valuable for us, but given the changes to power weapons and focus on Dark Angels, we may see enough army lists carrying heavier termie loadouts to make keeping fireknives valuable.

I agree it got nerfed, but your still killing marines w/ plasma instantly w/o cover and if they have fnp, they only get the 5+. It's not like they get armour and fnp w/ only a 3+ armor save. The ap2 nullifies their armor so they only get the 5+, right? Also just to clarify if an fnp marine is in cover they wouldn't get cover and than fnp if they fail the cover.

They would still get FNP afaik. FNP is a separate save you get to take if you fail your armor/cover/invul save. It's part of why plague marines in a piece of area terrain were/are such a nightmare to shift and made such ideal objective campers (The other part was their wonderful T5)

I think the trade off between us not getting plasma rifles to negate FnP and the save itself only being a 33% chance rather than 50% is fair. We might not have as many weapons that go through it, but every other weapon we have got more effective against it. DE won't be such a pain now. pain... get it?

Cirronimbus wrote:I think the trade off between us not getting plasma rifles to negate FnP and the save itself only being a 33% chance rather than 50% is fair. We might not have as many weapons that go through it, but every other weapon we have got more effective against it. DE won't be such a pain now. pain... get it?

Dark Eldar were never really that tough, even with 4+ FNP. When your basic guns are wounding them on 2+ and the most popular Crisis suit weapons (Plasma Rifles and Missile Pods) ignore the majority of their armour saves (with Armoured Carapace and Incubi Armour still saving against Missile Pods) whilst inflicting Instant Death, it wasn't that hard to take them out once you got them out of their transports and cut their manoeuvrability.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

Niether the BRB or the Faq Mention the Tau grenades. Because of this the Tau don't get either of the new abilities until GW properly FAQ's them.

Actually the main rulebook does mention Tau Grenades. First line of the defensive grenades rules: "Defensive grenades, such as the photon grenades of the Tau..."

Also the Tau codex does describe photon grenades as defensive grenades so they do grant Stealth against shooting within 8" and deny extra close combat attacks for units charging them.

It doesn't need to come up in the FAQ as the main rulebook and Tau codex already state that they are defensive grenades.

Yeah, your right. I fixed that in the Tactica thread. The Photons are Defensive and get the new rules but the EMP's do not until a faq or new codex says otherwise.

Sorry about the mistake.

God your shooting is going to be deterring charges and wiping transports out now! Good for tau! Especially given the fortifications.

I'm curious about the meat shields though, should they be expendable or tough? Charging or just spaciously distributed?

Tau are looking really cute. I really hope they give you guys some of those neato enormous fliers soon, or maybe something akin to a SC carrier with respect to drones.

Can someone read the CC rules please? It seems to say two singled handed weapons mean +1 A. Not twoCC weapons just two any weapon. Am I right in thinking all battlesuits weapons are singled handed so do all battlesuits now gain +1 A? What have I missed?

Lucre wrote:
I'm curious about the meat shields though, should they be expendable or tough? Charging or just spaciously distributed?

I've been thinking about this for the past few days, Since Kroot in the woods only get like a 4+ now (IIRC) I was thinking I'd try making some room for Ork Allies. Grots are like 3 points a piece(IIRC) So in theory, if you could make room for something cheap for an Ork HQ, you could easily double the amount of Bubble Wrap you have on the board. The only problem would be making room for some cheap Ork HQ.

Pottsey wrote:Can someone read the CC rules please? It seems to say two singled handed weapons mean +1 A. Not twoCC weapons just two any weapon. Am I right in thinking all battlesuits weapons are singled handed so do all battlesuits now gain +1 A? What have I missed?

Guns arent close combat weapons aside from pistols

Just reading through the Close Combat section of the rulebook and the changes to sweeping advances have increased our chances of actually surviving an assault.

Now that we get to use the highest initiative in the unit we can keep some drones at the back of the unit so they survive and then use their initiative of 4 to escape from combat, putting us on equal footing with Space Marines.

Also makes O'Shovah and his retinue a lot better when they test on 5 instead of 3.

I'm thinking you put drones out slightly in front of your suits (except one who sits at the back for safety reasons) to absorb Overwatch fire and get into base contact with the Marines, forcing the Marine player to kill the drones before he can start putting wounds on your actual suits.

Once combat is done, if you win and they fail their leadership test then you can hopefully sweep the Marines with an equal Initiative to theirs and if you lose and run away then that one drone at the back who never got to fight will ensure you're pulling out at an equal Initiative.

Except challenges will kill any crisis suit assault. You get challenged, then either give up a large percentage of your attacks, or risk having a sgt smack you with his power fist. If the drone controller dies, the drones die at the end of the phase. Sure, you might survive on the drones higher ini before losing it, but why did you assault in the first place?

Crisis suit assaulting is essentially directly countered by challenges by powerfist sgts.

Crisis suites should still never assault, especially considering you get to bounce back and give the opponent a chance to fail his assault, and worst case you still get your overwatch.

Ally with chaos, all your challenge problems are solved!

Dracos wrote:Except challenges will kill any crisis suit assault. You get challenged, then either give up a large percentage of your attacks, or risk having a sgt smack you with his power fist. If the drone controller dies, the drones die at the end of the phase. Sure, you might survive on the drones higher ini before losing it, but why did you assault in the first place?

Crisis suit assaulting is essentially directly countered by challenges by powerfist sgts.

Crisis suites should still never assault, especially considering you get to bounce back and give the opponent a chance to fail his assault, and worst case you still get your overwatch.

Manoeuvre into a position where you kill the sergeant with your shooting, if you can.

I'm approaching this more as a Farsight player. Get him into base contact with the Sarge. If the sarge issues a challenge you cut him to pieces with Farsight and your Initiative 5 is safe for this round of combat. In the meantime the normal marines are wasting their time killing drones, allowing your bodyguards to survive, then you pile in with the suits. When each suit is getting 3 S5 attacks some of those attacks are going to get through Power Armour.

One useful thing is that although crisis suits lost nightvision as a free upgrade, one blacksun filter now gives the entire unit night vision, which now ignores night fight rules entirely, 3 pt upgrade for the team leader and bam, done, night fight ignoring fire warriors and suits.
Markerlights are not affected at all by night fight, you cannot pick targets over 36", but thats the markerlights max range, so doesnt matter, and you dont take saves vs markerlights so stealth/shroud is useless
One markerlight allows you to ignore nightfight, so coupled with not needing to see, thats pretty good.

All in all, tau got pretty damn good at nightfight imo, and removing enemies from the front is always good. Plus focus fire is useful when no markerlights are available.

Also, regrouping at 25% now makes shas'ui a little more worth their cost in FW teams for that extra LD

Losing target locks is horrible and I have no idea why they did it. Also multi trackers on tanks are now also useless. Starting to feel like the old DE dex with all this useless equipment..

That seems like a crazy inefficient way of using Tau. What happens when you get tied up and then your opponent brings in a real combat unit? You get chumped into wasting farsights attacks killing 1 model, and then maybe kill one or two more with the bodyguards. If the marines don't run you're probably in big trouble from and sort of counter-assault unit.

Crisis suites =/= close combat specialists.

edit: By the way, the new standard is going to be to have sgts in the middle/back of the units, because they don't need to base an IC to hit them, a challenge will make that happen. You should never be able to kill a sgt with shooting if an opponent doesn't want you to. Precision shot is your only shot there, and even that gets a look out sir roll.

Bobug wrote:
Losing target locks is horrible and I have no idea why they did it. Also multi trackers on tanks are now also useless. Starting to feel like the old DE dex with all this useless equipment..

That doesn't seem that bad to me. I only used target Locks on my Broadsides and by "Used Target Locks" I mean "Spent 5 points and forgot I spend the points on Target Locks"

But look at it this way, I had 4 Vehicles( not including tetras) in my 2k army. With Disruption pods no longer being Absolutely Required and Multitrackers (on vehicles) being useless, That frees up 15 points per vehicle for me. 60 points waving free, to be spent on..... Well I dunno yet. But still It freed up more points for use elsewhere.

Dracos wrote:That seems like a crazy inefficient way of using Tau. What happens when you get tied up and then your opponent brings in a real combat unit?

You use hit and run at I4 or I5 to pull out of combat and rapid fire back.

where do you get hit and run from? Retro thrusters is one per army and disallows drones :s

Bobug wrote:where do you get hit and run from? Retro thrusters is one per army and disallows drones :s

One character starts on his own with it but nothing disallows him from joining a unit after deployment and granting them Hit and Run.

Ahh hit and run transfers now.. didnt occur to me. Huh thats interesting

Dracos wrote:That seems like a crazy inefficient way of using Tau. What happens when you get tied up and then your opponent brings in a real combat unit? You get chumped into wasting farsights attacks killing 1 model, and then maybe kill one or two more with the bodyguards. If the marines don't run you're probably in big trouble from and sort of counter-assault unit.

Crisis suites =/= close combat specialists.

edit: By the way, the new standard is going to be to have sgts in the middle/back of the units, because they don't need to base an IC to hit them, a challenge will make that happen. You should never be able to kill a sgt with shooting if an opponent doesn't want you to. Precision shot is your only shot there, and even that gets a look out sir roll.

When a unit is absorbing lots of Plasma Rifle fire before being assaulted you will get to a sergeant hiding in the middle.
Farsight hits on 3s, rest of his retinue (7 suits) hit on 4s, I have them twin-linked with Shield Gens so that's also a re-roll.

14 shots, half hit, half of the misses hit on the re-roll = 10.5 hits
10.5 hits, wounding on 2+ = 8.75 wounds, which rounds up to 9 wounds.
Now Farsight, 2 shots = 1.33 hits
1.33 hits = 1.11 wounds.

So if you roll averagely that tac squad will be vaporised by your shooting alone. If you roll under average then that unit will still be severely weakened, allowing you to wipe them off the board in that turns assault phase, rather than spend the next turns shooting to do it.

Also, where are people getting the idea that multi trackers on vehicles are useless now? They allow you to move and fire as if you are a fast vehicle, so you can move 12" and fire 2 weapons at full ballistic skill or 6" and fire all of them at full ballistic skill. This makes a Hammerhead with Railgun and SMS capable of moving 12" every turn whilst still firing both of its weapons at full ballistic skill, with the plus side that you will always be able to use Submunition round as you are never shooting snap shots unless shooting at a flier, in which case a submunition round wouldn't do anything anyway. That seems worth 10 points to me.

I think the challenge rules are actually going to help crisis suits a little in unfortunate close combats. I think because sgts. will be able to be picked out, people will feel less inclined to equip them with 25 point power fists. This helps suits a bit. More significantly (and I'm sorry if this has been posted already), Tau will be the kings of Precision Shot. Squad leaders are characters, and unlike other armies' squad leaders, Tau squad leaders are packing multiple heavy/special weapon equivalents.

To maximize this, you would have 2 Crisis suit characters in HQ and 3 Crisis suit characters in Elites. Say they're fireknife, and you're getting a little less than one directed plasma rifle hit and a little less than 2 directed missile pod hits. Broadsides make it even better, for obvious reasons.

At 2000 points it gets stupid, with a second force org you could have 4 HQ Suits, 6 Elite suits (all Monats, probably), and any Broadside team leaders you can fit in.

A Town Called Malus wrote:many words

Except you had to charge forward to engage in the assault. I'd really like to see this in a game - I expect farsight would find himself out of position and sent packing to a counterassault.

How many points is this hypothetical farsight unit worth? I'd wager much more than a single tactical squad. It should seem obvious that they can out muscle the tactical squad, but the tactics you are proposing are suspect.

How exactly are multitrackers on vehicles useless??

A multitracker lets you fire as a fast vehicle (so 2 weapons when going cruising right). And a Warfish has a burst cannon and smart missile system. What am I missing? Move 12" every turn claim 5+ cover and have full firepower. Without the multi-tracker I would only get 1 weapon if I moved 6".

Ah my bad about multi trackers, thought fast vehicles just gave you the additional flat out movement now! derp

Actually, any vehicle can flat out now. Not just the fast ones.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Bobug wrote:where do you get hit and run from? Retro thrusters is one per army and disallows drones :s

One character starts on his own with it but nothing disallows him from joining a unit after deployment and granting them Hit and Run.

That has not been settled as of yet. Has it? There is a question of whether the restriction is just for purchasing or if it actually limits unit composition. Before running off on an assaumption, I would take it to YMDC. Especially, before trying in a tourny game.

Thaylen wrote:Actually, any vehicle can flat out now. Not just the fast ones.

Yeah but fast vehicles have a bigger flat out movement, I thought that was their only benefit

Dracos wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:may words

Except you had to charge forward to engage in the assault. I'd really like to see this in a game - I expect farsight would find himself out of position and sent packing to a counterassault.

How many points is this hypothetical farsight unit worth? I'd wager much more than a single tactical squad. It should seem obvious that they can out muscle the tactical squad, but the tactics you are proposing are suspect.

I am not so sure a counterassault would be that bad. Twin linked plasma rapid fire overwatch with D3 flamers hits per suit are pretty deadly to any counterassault. At least that’s what I want to try.

As for price not that much the cheapest end are twin linked flamer with blacksun filter dirt cheap compared to normal battlesuits and deadly at close range. 272 for Farisight and 3 more suits is as cheap as you could go although I think I would want to go the plasma route for more long range firepower. I would guess between 300points to 500points depending on what you take.

I don't think challenges will be a problem for a farsight blob, crisis shas'vre are characters according to the summary in the BRB. Give one guy 2+ armor and FNP to accept challenges from PW characters, and a shield generator guy to accept a PF one, and just let farsight lay into the target squad. Also as a unit of characters, everyone has look out sir so we can still pull allocation shinanigans.

DarbNilbirts wrote:I don't think challenges will be a problem for a farsight blob, crisis shas'vre are characters according to the summary in the BRB. Give one guy 2+ armor and FNP to accept challenges from PW characters, and a shield generator guy to accept a PF one, and just let farsight lay into the target squad. Also as a unit of characters, everyone has look out sir so we can still pull allocation shinanigans.

In the FAQ it says that the Shas'Vre from a bodyguard are not characters, unlike those from the normal teams, or GK Paladins for some reason.

Lucre wrote:God your shooting is going to be deterring charges and wiping transports out now! Good for tau! Especially given the fortifications.

I'm curious about the meat shields though, should they be expendable or tough? Charging or just spaciously distributed?

Tau are looking really cute. I really hope they give you guys some of those neato enormous fliers soon, or maybe something akin to a SC carrier with respect to drones.

Right...Forgeworld....Tau Manta...Biggest flyer.

Dracos wrote:Except challenges will kill any crisis suit assault. You get challenged, then either give up a large percentage of your attacks, or risk having a sgt smack you with his power fist. If the drone controller dies, the drones die at the end of the phase. Sure, you might survive on the drones higher ini before losing it, but why did you assault in the first place?

Crisis suit assaulting is essentially directly countered by challenges by powerfist sgts.

Crisis suites should still never assault, especially considering you get to bounce back and give the opponent a chance to fail his assault, and worst case you still get your overwatch.

I can't remember where I read this but, drones taken as wargear take on the unit type of the controlling model, so if a 'character' takes drones then the drone takes his type, which includes 'character' which means that the drones could/can accept/issue challenges for the unit/character.

Cheers

Andrew

Played a game yesterday - 1500 points, Tau empire with Necron auxiliary. My opponent used chaos demons, with 2 flying daemon princes in his heavy slots. We rolled 'big guns never tire' mission which made our heavies scoring units as well as victory points.

So, I ended up winning by prettymuch shooting him off the table (a destroyer lord/wraith unit tied up some bloodletters/great unclean one for about 3 turns, buying me time). The roll that did it for me was my home objective was a 'skyfire nexus', giving my annihilation barge, railgun hammerheads, and fire warriors skyfire. I was able to knock the daemon princes out of the sky and then finish them off with ground shooting.

Skyfire nexus. Tau's best friend until we get our flyer.

Any rumors on the flyer kit tau are supposed to get? last rumors I heard were in august and that it used markerlights 'in a new way'. I suspect it will fire tracer lights at flyers, giving ground units skyfire if they target the flyer using the marker light. Just an idea but would mesh well with the tau mont'ka approach to warfare.

Im interested in the new preferred enemy rules. As they now apply to shooting, I will finally be able to find a use for my ethereal, though his only purpose is to get killed as soon as possible.
It will basically twin link all my suits and fire warriors

reddwarf54 wrote:Im interested in the new preferred enemy rules. As they now apply to shooting, I will finally be able to find a use for my ethereal, though his only purpose is to get killed as soon as possible.
It will basically twin link all my suits and fire warriors

re-rolling 1's to hit and to wound isn't quite as good as twin-linking, though it does help a lot.

Remember that if you roll a '4' on mysterious objectives, that objective gives your firewarriors re-rolls of 1 when shooting.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Bobug wrote:where do you get hit and run from? Retro thrusters is one per army and disallows drones :s

One character starts on his own with it but nothing disallows him from joining a unit after deployment and granting them Hit and Run.

PLEASE tell me if he joins a firewarrior squad they gain hit and run, it would be hillarious for the modelling oppurtunity, 12 fire warriors hanging onto a crisis suit for dear life as its thrusters make it 1, maybe 2 feet of the floor?

Ha ha ha, what a brilliant image . And as far as I can see completely possible with the rules as written...

Would make an interesting diorama that!

There has been no word on the vectored thrusters as of yet.

And its shenanigans like the above mentioned that will mean that GW will probably rule against it.

I for one am counciling every Tau player that I come across against trying to manipulate this peice of wargear to exploit the H&R USR. Tau players have enough of an image problem in 40K with out trying something that most non-Tau players would, most likely, consider cheating.

Reason for this is that the Vectored thruster entry limits the wargear to one model only in an unclear/obtuse manner.


Any that would like to weigh in on the subject, there is a thread in the YMDC forum, here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459739.page" target="_new" rel="nofollow"> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/459739.page

did someone mention that stealth suit drones didn't get shrouding? Just re read FAq and can't see where drones would be denied shroud/stealth. If so this represents a huge buff for stealth suits particularly the 6 suit/12 gun drone unit.

Damn. Apparently the bit giving drones the stealth/shrouded has been replaced, as the entire entry has been replaced with "Gives stealth and shrouded" but nothing about drones getting it as well. Gah. Ah well.

darkPrince010 wrote:Damn. Apparently the bit giving drones the stealth/shrouded has been replaced, as the entire entry has been replaced with "Gives stealth and shrouded" but nothing about drones getting it as well. Gah. Ah well.

The rule for stealth/shrouded fixes this. As long as one model in the unit has either/or/both the whole unit benefits.

Sweet. In that case, I am one happy camper. Also, I am now tossing a camo cloak on my lord commissar for my IG footguard army.

How do you suggest dealing with units going to ground on objectives inside an Aegis line? I pounded away at a IG unit inside on on the 2 objective mission and killed maybe 5 guys over the course of the game. And he had 3 units of 10 behind it.

Indarys wrote:How do you suggest dealing with units going to ground on objectives inside an Aegis line? I pounded away at a IG unit inside on on the 2 objective mission and killed maybe 5 guys over the course of the game. And he had 3 units of 10 behind it.

Against IG, markerlights to reduce the cover save and a Submunition round from a Hammerhead. Result is Instant Death on anybody wounded by it with no save. Job done

You could also try to get your suits down the flanks to shoot at them from a position where they don't have cover.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Indarys wrote:How do you suggest dealing with units going to ground on objectives inside an Aegis line? I pounded away at a IG unit inside on on the 2 objective mission and killed maybe 5 guys over the course of the game. And he had 3 units of 10 behind it.

Against IG, markerlights to reduce the cover save and a Submunition round from a Hammerhead. Result is Instant Death on anybody wounded by it with no save. Job done

You could also try to get your suits down the flanks to shoot at them from a position where they don't have cover.

Probably wouldn't work as with blast templates you still allocate wounds to the models closest to the firing unit.

what about a deep striking crisis team with tl flamers? Ds, flame, jetpack move behind cover. Also given that AFP is ordinance it is a must for commanders or shasvre.

danp164 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Bobug wrote:where do you get hit and run from? Retro thrusters is one per army and disallows drones :s

One character starts on his own with it but nothing disallows him from joining a unit after deployment and granting them Hit and Run.

PLEASE tell me if he joins a firewarrior squad they gain hit and run, it would be hillarious for the modelling oppurtunity, 12 fire warriors hanging onto a crisis suit for dear life as its thrusters make it 1, maybe 2 feet of the floor?

I had a similar idea for gun drones. As they make us I4 for breaking away, have a bunch of ropes tied to the drone pull the fire warriors away.

DarbNilbirts wrote:

danp164 wrote:

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Bobug wrote:where do you get hit and run from? Retro thrusters is one per army and disallows drones :s

One character starts on his own with it but nothing disallows him from joining a unit after deployment and granting them Hit and Run.

PLEASE tell me if he joins a firewarrior squad they gain hit and run, it would be hillarious for the modelling oppurtunity, 12 fire warriors hanging onto a crisis suit for dear life as its thrusters make it 1, maybe 2 feet of the floor?

I had a similar idea for gun drones. As they make us I4 for breaking away, have a bunch of ropes tied to the drone pull the fire warriors away.

Or Fire Warriors riding the gun drones. I can't help but think of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twdmvcHI-hE

I really love my Kroots. New Focus Fire hurts them as it's almost impossible for a front line of Kroots to be all obscure or in cover. Fortunately the ones in the back can still be obscure by a friendly unit in the front.

I've been brainstorming a couple ideas to make my Kroots obscure to enemy shooting:
-Units of 12 Fire Warriors screening the front.
-Couple units of Gun Drones sitting in the front.

On another topic, I discovered the Drone JSJ idea back in 5th ed where a line of Gun Drones starts out in front of Fire Warriors. Movement phase they move behind the Fire Warriors, allowing Fire Warriors to pick off enemy units that aren't protected by cover and have armour 5+ or worst. In assault phase, Drones jump back in front of Fire Warriors, granting Fire Warriors cover saves and protecting them from assault. This idea didn't bode well in 5th edition because Fire Warriors were weren't popular. However, the new 6th edition favors them, making this a viable tactic. Of course this only works against units with 5+ or worst armor saves. It has no use against 4+ or 3+, but it does protect Fire Warriors from assault.

Why not combine that with the stealthsuit and gun drone blob?

The suits basically need to be assaulted in order to hurt (They're a 4+ save in the wide open, let alone if they get any cover), can JSJ for the fire warriors to do their thing, and actually offer a better firepower loadout than just drones (And a more intimidating wall of fire if assaulted)

darkPrince010 wrote:Why not combine that with the stealthsuit and gun drone blob?

The suits basically need to be assaulted in order to hurt (They're a 4+ save in the wide open, let alone if they get any cover), can JSJ for the fire warriors to do their thing, and actually offer a better firepower loadout than just drones (And a more intimidating wall of fire if assaulted)

I tend to field 60 to 100 Kroots in multiple layers. I need a lot of bodies to obscure a single squad of 20 Kroots that aren't in cover. They also need to be cheap and sacrificial as they would most likely take the blunt of enemy shooting.

SabrX wrote:On another topic, I discovered the Drone JSJ idea back in 5th ed where a line of Gun Drones starts out in front of Fire Warriors. Movement phase they move behind the Fire Warriors, allowing Fire Warriors to pick off enemy units that aren't protected by cover and have armour 5+ or worst. In assault phase, Drones jump back in front of Fire Warriors, granting Fire Warriors cover saves and protecting them from assault. This idea didn't bode well in 5th edition because Fire Warriors were weren't popular. However, the new 6th edition favors them, making this a viable tactic. Of course this only works against units with 5+ or worst armor saves. It has no use against 4+ or 3+, but it does protect Fire Warriors from assault.

Another option is to have a line of fire warriors, and using long range JsJ Crisis suits using the Fire Warriors as cover

I hope I'm not necroing as it has only been 20 days, I noticed something regarding drones.

Shield Drones got a lot less useful. Back in 5th edition, they were used to absorb ID AP3 wounds. They can't do that anymore since wound allocation start from the closest model. Even if they are put in the front, the enemy can just allocate a torrent of fire and kill the 1-2 drones. They then force the suits to eat the krak missile wounds.

I have played two games of 6th edition so far and won both of them quite easily.

The last game i played i took a small Eldar attachment using Eldrad and two units of 3 jetbikes. (the jetbikes allowed me to contest objectives in turn 5 and Eldrad pulled all his abilities off Divination and rocked)

I have also been using an Aegis defence line in both games. The 4+ cover save within 2 inches is brilliant for surviveability. I have simply stuck my firewarriors behind it and blasted anything which comes into range. An rapid fire overwatch at full ballistic skill took 3 wounds off a hive tyrant (who actually failed his assault range) I have now contemplated using it for another reason.

Kroot + Aegis defence line = Kroot meatshield with a 4+ cover save. (i'm even contemplating a krootox rider - 24" rapid fire with a str 7 ap 4 weapon isn't that bad or 48" for popping vehicles)

The use of the unit would be a cheap, durable tar pit for assaulting armies. The key would be not to assault with them. Keep them close to the aegis line and take the cover. Their rapid fire will be nice should anyone charge them and if the possibility of combat does arise then Eldrad can now significantly enhance them:

He can give a unit a 4+ invulnerable save.
He can allow them to fire Overwatch on full ballistic skill.
he can allow re-rolls to hit/re-rolls to saving throws.
He can join them in melee and challenge/enhance their leadership and wound on 2's.

In my humble opinion - Kroot + aegis + eldrad = fricking awesome.

thoughts?

This sounds really good. I'm not running eldrad but 2 farseers and its been alot of fun so far. I was worried about the impact of 5+ cover on kroot but your ADL idea gets around that (well aside from TFC/barrage but nothing new there!).

Another option for manning the Aegis is Sniper Drone Teams. For one thing, their Shrouded plus Stealth = 2+ cover save. They've got 36" guns, and target locks all around. Oh, and they're Ld8, and the spotters are BS4. So you have your BS4 spotter on the gun, Sniper Drones along the wall.

Eldrad in a unit of kroot w/ 3x krootox. it's a rather effective unit honestly, especially after you roll on divination and realize that you got, ignore coversaves and TL for your shoots. 6 krootgun shoots with TL and ignore cover have taken down 3 IG vendettas to this date.

 darkPrince010 wrote:
Sweet. In that case, I am one happy camper. Also, I am now tossing a camo cloak on my lord commissar for my IG footguard army.

not sure about the IG codex, but for marines, cammo cloaks don't confer stealth, they only improve the cover save by one

Can someone please confirm that I am reading this correctly:

Page 30 – Armoury, Disruption Pod.
Change the last sentence to read “A vehicle with a disruption
pod has the Shrouded special rule against any weapons firing
from more than 12" away.”

So a Hammerhead in a ruin will have 2+ Cover Save while happily firing away at the enemy army what would most likely be for the remainder of the game?!?

Yup, and 3+ out in the open provided it has moved.

We're really getting cover saves galore with these FAQs.

Somebody at GW must like us.

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that in 6th edition where cover is much less effective, and therefor much less anti-cover would be taken, the Tau actually get even MORE cover then they had in 5th?

Talk about metagame survivability increase.

Target lock is back too so now were buried for options. Hammerheads just became very viable plus we also just got the best transport in the game handed to us with a gift wrap.

Dont take it too far...the devilfish became GOOD, but its nothing compared to ghost arks or the filers.

I dunno, it gets to zip around, ignore line of sight with str5 missile spam shooting like a fast vehicle, ignore terrain, and even gets a 3up cover save now!

Yeah I hesitate to put "Best Transport in the Game" on the Devilfish. It's just overcosted in the modern environment.