Jy2 and I had a major showdown between Necrons and Grey Knights. We were curious to see how a Necron Airforce complete with 9 flyers will compete against the infamous Grey Knights Crowe-Purifer list. Unfortunately jy2 forgot to bring his camera. My phone has a built in camera, so I took pictures and will be writing the battle report. I don't own a Necron army. Jy2 lent me some models.

Jy2's Crowe-Purifier list has an impressive track record. In 5th edition, it won many games against many top-tier lists. But with the new 6th edition rules, they got nerfed. Vehicles are much more fragile and can no longer score or contest (unless granted special rules). Force Weapons are AP3 and have difficulty against 2+ saves. Passengers can disembark only if their transport doesn't move more than 6". The biggest nerf is infantry not being able to assault on the turn they disembark from a non-assault vehicle.

However, the new edition favors shooty armies. Jy2's Crowe-Purifiers list has a lot of it. With twelve Psycannons and four Psyrifle Dreads, that's a lot of firepower. Perhaps enough to counter flyers, which need 6's to hit without skyfire rule.

My list on the other hand is experimental and has no proven track record. Six Night Scythes and three Doom Scythes, which sums up to nine flyers! Each has TL-Tesla Destructors. They will tear up most medium armored vehicles and wound most infantry, causing Arc hits to any units within 6" of the wounded unit. The Doom Scythes fires the nasty Death Ray, which could hit multiple units and cause lots of damage.

Flyers are really powerful in 6th edition. They can alpha strike and are hard to hit. Furthermore, thanks to Invasion Beam Necron Warriors can disembark 6" from the flying base as long as the Night Flyer didn't move more than 36". That's a huge distance and great for last minute objective grabs or contest. Overlord got a huge buff. Solar Pulse isn't that useful. Crypteks with Voltaic Staffs are really good against vehicles.

Being a new edition, there are controversies. The biggest is whether Necron Warriors suffers Str10 hit with no armor saves after their crashes and can they WBB in reserves. We decided for this game they will get hit by Str10 without armor saves and they are allowed WBB in reserves.

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Army List:

Necrons


Do note that the Vendettas are proxy for Doom Scythes and the Hell Talons are proxy for Night Scythes.

-Overlord, Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Sempiternal Weave, Resurrection Orb, Phase Shifter
-Overlord, Warscythe, Mindshackle Scarabs, Sempiternal Weave, Resurrection Orb, Phase Shifter
-3 Crypteks, 3 Voltaic Staffs
-5 Necron Warriors, Night Scythe
-5 Necron Warriors, Night Scythe
-5 Necron Warriors, Night Scythe
-5 Necron Warriors, Night Scythe
-5 Necron Warriors, Night Scythe
-5 Necron Warriors, Night Scythe
-Doom Scythe
-Doom Scythe
-Doom Scythe

Grey Knights



-Crowe
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Warding Staff, Rhino
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Hammer, Rhino
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Hammer, Rhino
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Hammer, Rhino
-5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, 2 Halberds, Hammer, Rhino
-10 Strikes, 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, Rhino, Dozer Blade
-Dreadnought, 2 TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
-Dreadnought, 2 TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
-Dreadnought, 2 TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
-Venerable Dreadnought, 2 TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo

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Table and Terrain:


The table was setup to resemble a dessert fortress. Towers count as single level buildings, craters count as craters, ruins count as ruins, and hills count as hills.

Mission: The Relic
It’s like capture the flag with both armies fighting over a single objective. The relic starts off center of the board. A scoring model can pick up the relic in their movement phase. They can also pass on the relic to friendly scoring model if they are based to base contact. Enemy scoring unit has to kill the model holding the relic and pick it up in their movement phase to gain possession. There are of course movement restrictions for the unit with the relic. They cannot move more than 6”. If they are inside a transport, it cannot travel more than 6”. It can’t be transported in a flyer or else the
flyer will automatically becomes wrecked. Whoever has the relic at the end of the game is awarded 3 victory points.

Secondary objectives like all the other missions include Slay the Warlord, Line Breaker, and First Blood. Each one worth 1 victory point.


Mr. Turtle will be the relic today. As per mission rules, he's setup center of the board.

Deployment: Dawn of War
It’s essentially Pitched Battle from 5th ed.

Pre-Game Analysis:

Jy2:
The purpose of this battle report was twofold. Firstly, we wanted to see just how good is the Necron Airforce, an army of purely flyers. Now we can probably fit 1 more flyer into this army if we had wanted to, but I think an army consisting of 9 flyers is already strong enough. In my opinion, I feel that this may perhaps be one of the most competitive early builds in the new 6th Edition (6E). Many armies won't be able to handle such an army. Only the most shooty of builds may have a chance against this army. The million dollar question here is, are the grey knights shooty enough to stop them?

Which leads us to the 2nd purpose of this report - how have the grey knights translated into 6E? Back in 5th, they were considered by many to be the Top Dog of the competitive armies. And they had every reason to due to the combination (and balance) of assault, shootiness and special rules that the new grey knights possessed. Now in the dawn of a new era, can they still claim the top spot as the best army currently? Or will they be dethroned by the army whom many feel is the new champions?

In this battle, I will be playing my grey knights and SabrX will be playing my necrons (yes, both armies are mine). But before we begin, I'd like to say this:


Disclaimer: Do not use this army (the Necron Airforce) against an opponent not equipped to deal with flyers. It is a very strong army and will frustrate many, especially in casual games. No one likes the feeling of helplessness, but that is how it will turn out if you have no way to deal with flyers.


Ok, now after having said that, I feel that my Crower-Purifier grey knights have what it takes to handle this army. My knights are an incredibly balanced army with good assault and excellent shooting. It's only drawback is its mobility. Compared to my necron opponent, this is like the rabbit (crons) and the tortoise (grey knights....but guess who wins that race? Heh, heh....). But even with this build, I can't help but feel that my grey knights are a slight underdog against my opponent's army, especially if we get one of those objectives-based missions. I think I have the advantage in assault, whereas he definitely has the advantage in mobility. However, I think the winner here is going to be the army with the better Shooting phase. If my knights cand down 2-3 flyers a turn, I think I will get this. If not, then the crons have a good chance to take this game. In any case, I don't expect any of my tanks to be alive at the end of the game. That's how nasty his shooty is (and also how much transports have been nerfed in this new edition).

My strategy is going to be quite risky. Despite the 3 doom scythes in my SabrX's army, I'm going to keep my forces together and advance them as far up as possible. I don't expect my vehicles (including the dreads) to survive, however, if I am together, then my 48 psycannon shots should be able to hit any flyer that was in range to fire at my forces. This will also give me support against his 2 mini-deathstar models. And the further up I advance, hopefully his limited mobility will prevent some of his flyers to be able to target my units. Or at best, they only get 1 shot before they are forced to fly off the board. Now this is a gamble because his doom scythes will probably be able to get multiple vehicles with they deathrays, but I'm hoping cover will help mitigate the damage somewhat. However, the following turn, those doom scythes should be dead as I will focus the entire fury of my shooting at them. Anyways, this strategy shall either lead me to glory or blow up right in my face.

Overall, it isn't going to be an easy battle for my knights. As a matter of fact, it should be a damn tough fight, but I think I have the tools to deal with that many flyers. It's all going to come down to the Shooting phase. Whoever is the better shooter this game will most likely take this game.

Me:

Jy2 summed it well. I have mix feelings how this game will turn out. I have no experience using Flyers and have only played one game as Necrons in 5th edition. Interestingly, that game was also against Jy2's Crowe-Purifier list, which I lost.

My first goal in this game it to take out all Psyrifle Dreads. Dual TL-Str8 Autocannons are extremely effective against Flyers. If I want to maintain air superiority, the dreads got to go.

My second goal is to reduce Grey Knight's mobility. I'm fielding 6 min-size squads of Necron Warriors. They aren't very durable and vulnerable to AP4. If I deploy them too soon, they could get shot up to death. If they stay the Night Scythes, there's also the chance it gets shot up causing any who survive to come in from my table edge. That's a huge setback for small Necron Warrior squads. There's no doubt Jy2 will reach the Relic first and will attempt to pull it back towards his deployment zone. His Grey Knights are durable and could hold onto the Relic until the end of the game. Neutralizing mobility of the unit holding the Relic is a top priority.

Aside from the ridiculous amount of Psycannons and most of Jy2's troop able to decimate Necron Warriors in combat, I also fear Crowe and the Justicar carrying the 2++ Warding Stave. Crowe is one of the single best assault models in the game. 2+/4++ re-rolls and when he dies, he could attempt Heroic Sacrifice. There's no getting back after being removed from the game. On the other hand, the 2++ Warding Stave is just as annoying. It could tie up an Overlord for a whole game. No fear in losing other members in the squad when the Justicar can always issue a challenge. I've had games in 5th ed where Jy2's 2++ Justicar held up an entire Deathwing unit for most of the game and end killing them all. I'm quite glad Jy2 didn't decide to field more Warding Staves.

The biggest advantage I have in this game is alpha strike and going second. I have the initiative to attack first. A successful alpha strike can leave an opponent's army devastated, which impacts the rest of the game. It also guarantees me first blood. On top of that, I'm going second. I get to make the final move over the Relic.

If I play my cards right and lady luck isn't fickle, I should emerge victorious.

Deployment:

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Turn 1:



Turn 2:



Turn 3:



Ran out of space in original post. Please click link below to continue reading rest of battle report:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/462099.page#4530752

Units are not embarked on a Night Scythe, hence they would not suffer any damage from a crashed Nightscythe. That's why, if the Nightscythe goes down, nothing disembarks from the wreckage.

It will be interesting to see how the Necrons avoid losing just from having no models on the battlefield at the end of a game turn (due to all those flyers, and the delicate troops).

9 flyers will be really cool!

I'm gonna lean toward jy2 winning. Only because he has a list that he has played many times and understands how it works pretty well. While I think the expermiental list is stronger thanks to its hard to hit glance producing fliers of death, I think it's going to have a steep learning curve.

Hi SabrX,

BTW, only of my purifier units has 1 warding stave instead of a hammer.

DarthDiggler wrote:Units are not embarked on a Night Scythe, hence they would not suffer any damage from a crashed Nightscythe. That's why, if the Nightscythe goes down, nothing disembarks from the wreckage.

We decided to go with the intepretation that was the more restrictive, or that gave the least advantage to the necron force.

In the case of rules controversies, I tend to go with the more conservative ruling unless we both agree otherwise.

DexKivuli wrote:It will be interesting to see how the Necrons avoid losing just from having no models on the battlefield at the end of a game turn (due to all those flyers, and the delicate troops).

9 flyers will be really cool!

That's easy. Hide 1 or 2 of those invincible Overlords on the board and out of LOS!

SabrX wrote:Being a new edition, there are controversies. The biggest is whether Necron Warriors suffers Str10 hit with no armor saves after their crashes and can they WBB in reserves. We decided for this game they will get hit by Str10 without armor saves and they are allowed WBB in reserves.

In 5th did people think exploding nightscythes hurt embarked units?

I'm really interested in seeing what JY2 does with the purifier lists. I've had to change mine significantly since 6th edition launched due to:

IG allies are really good for support
"The perfect warrior" is completely broken when it comes to challenges and regular characters, works good vs IC though but getting stuck can be problematic
Psyker powers in divination is a huge boon and tough choice to miss out on now
None of my guys are that survivable when it comes to getting shot at.
I stopped using the Ven dread since I can't stop the auto-wreck even with the rerolls :/
Aegis line is really nice for a gunline army
I'm still too dependent on trying to outrange my opponet with the HB + psybolt razorbacks too. Gotta give rhinos more of a try I suppose
Also I'm still really trying to learn when to dismount so that I can charge with them.
Techmarine is so fun, I've really started to like his 2+ saves now along with fancy nades.
Also can see me trying some sort of GK + necron list the way 6th edition is going so far lol.

Lists around me have some nasty necrons along the lines of:

D-lord iwith weave/MSS +6 wraiths with some number of lash + surflord
blocks of shooty immortals and warriors with some ark support but not many arks (usually 1 or 2 based on points) and some nightscythes too.
Solar pulses/lance tek's as standard.
2 to 3 death ray doomscythes
And usually some more wraiths. or he'd drop a scythe and get just one group of scarab + spyder to make it a multi pronged approach.

Suffice it to say, none of my tanks do very well.

Tremor crons still are very powerful too actually.

Quite personally invested to see how this goes down.

jy2 wrote:Hi SabrX,

BTW, only of my purifier units has 1 warding stave instead of a hammer.

Thanks for catching that!

Fixed.

I don't understand any controversy. The rules for the night-scythe says that if it is destoryed then the unit 'inside" comes in through reserves, they aren't actually 'in' the scythe so they can't take a str 10 hit if it crashes...

Some kinds of RAW disagree, but I don't think they're supposed to take the hit either. If you'll recall, strict RAW on Ever Living wouldn't let an Overlord get back up if he was attached to a unit that got wiped out. We know how that got FAQ'ed.
Looking forward to seeing how the battle goes. Picked up my first Night Scythe the other day, with the intention of getting at least one more in the near future.

Tremorcrons got beat to death with the nerf stick now that you can take armor saves against dangerous terrain. It's really only useful for occasionally immobilizing vehicles and slowing down charges, all of which you don't need the C'Tan for.

The reserve rules are not unkind now with ~6 of those fliers coming in turn 2. GK deployment here is tricky as if you're too far up you're very likely to see loads of Necron troops in your backfield in later turns. I sure hope I don't see any fliers pivoting more than 90° a turn in this report lol.

I just really want to see a dual CCB list sometime. Someone should really push those new chariot rules through their paces. Can. CCBs survive the shorter sweep distances. Or does the 12"+2d6 charge make up for it?

Updated:
-Table and Terrain
-Mission
-Deployment
-Warlord Traits

More to come soon!

Tremorcrons got beat to death with the nerf stick now that you can take armor saves against dangerous terrain. It's really only useful for occasionally immobilizing vehicles and slowing down charges, all of which you don't need the C'Tan for.

ahh we've been playing it wrong. Thanks for that. Still messing up so many rules. I was all excited on doing a thunderfire cannon + Writhing worldscape list lol.

jy2 wrote:

DexKivuli wrote:It will be interesting to see how the Necrons avoid losing just from having no models on the battlefield at the end of a game turn (due to all those flyers, and the delicate troops).

9 flyers will be really cool!

That's easy. Hide 1 or 2 of those invincible Overlords on the board and out of LOS!

Just watch out for Drop Pod armies...

Fetterkey wrote:

jy2 wrote:

DexKivuli wrote:It will be interesting to see how the Necrons avoid losing just from having no models on the battlefield at the end of a game turn (due to all those flyers, and the delicate troops).

9 flyers will be really cool!

That's easy. Hide 1 or 2 of those invincible Overlords on the board and out of LOS!

Just watch out for Drop Pod armies...

Not scared of DP armies at all. One thing you have to keep in mind is that units who come in from DP's will be firing in Snapshot mode. Thus, against the 2+/3++ T5 Overlord with 4+ RP saves, even a unit of 10 combi-plasma sternguards will only cause 1 unsaved wound when they come in (20 plasma shots, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved wound).

And if he plays many drop pods, deploy both Overlords and maybe 1 troop all the way out in the corner somewhere.


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SabrX, feel free to move my Pre-game to anywhere you see fit in your batrep.


PRE-GAME ANALYSIS:

Necrons:
The purpose of this battle report was twofold. Firstly, we wanted to see just how good is the Necron Airforce, an army of purely flyers. Now we can probably fit 1 more flyer into this army if we had wanted to, but I think an army consisting of 9 flyers is already strong enough. In my opinion, I feel that this may perhaps be one of the most competitive early builds in the new 6th Edition (6E). Many armies won't be able to handle such an army. Only the most shooty of builds may have a chance against this army. The million dollar question here is, are the grey knights shooty enough to stop them?

Which leads us to the 2nd purpose of this report - how have the grey knights translated into 6E? Back in 5th, they were considered by many to be the Top Dog of the competitive armies. And they had every reason to due to the combination (and balance) of assault, shootiness and special rules that the new grey knights possessed. Now in the dawn of a new era, can they still claim the top spot as the best army currently? Or will they be dethroned by the army whom many feel is the new champions?

In this battle, I will be playing my grey knights and SabrX will be playing my necrons (yes, both armies are mine). But before we begin, I'd like to say this:


Disclaimer: Do not use this army (the Necron Airforce) against an opponent not equipped to deal with flyers. It is a very strong army and will frustrate many, especially in casual games. No one likes the feeling of helplessness, but that is how it will turn out if you have no way to deal with flyers.


Ok, now after having said that, I feel that my Crower-Purifier grey knights have what it takes to handle this army. My knights are an incredibly balanced army with good assault and excellent shooting. It's only drawback is its mobility. Compared to my necron opponent, this is like the rabbit (crons) and the tortoise (grey knights....but guess who wins that race? Heh, heh....). But even with this build, I can't help but feel that my grey knights are a slight underdog against my opponent's army, especially if we get one of those objectives-based missions. I think I have the advantage in assault, whereas he definitely has the advantage in mobility. However, I think the winner here is going to be the army with the better Shooting phase. If my knights cand down 2-3 flyers a turn, I think I will get this. If not, then the crons have a good chance to take this game. In any case, I don't expect any of my tanks to be alive at the end of the game. That's how nasty his shooty is (and also how much transports have been nerfed in this new edition).

My strategy is going to be quite risky. Despite the 3 doom scythes in my SabrX's army, I'm going to keep my forces together and advance them as far up as possible. I don't expect my vehicles (including the dreads) to survive, however, if I am together, then my 48 psycannon shots should be able to hit any flyer that was in range to fire at my forces. This will also give me support against his 2 mini-deathstar models. And the further up I advance, hopefully his limited mobility will prevent some of his flyers to be able to target my units. Or at best, they only get 1 shot before they are forced to fly off the board. Now this is a gamble because his doom scythes will probably be able to get multiple vehicles with they deathrays, but I'm hoping cover will help mitigate the damage somewhat. However, the following turn, those doom scythes should be dead as I will focus the entire fury of my shooting at them. Anyways, this strategy shall either lead me to glory or blow up right in my face.

Overall, it isn't going to be an easy battle for my knights. As a matter of fact, it should be a damn tough fight, but I think I have the tools to deal with that many flyers. It's all going to come down to the Shooting phase. Whoever is the better shooter this game will most likely take this game.

jy2 wrote:Not scared of DP armies at all. One thing you have to keep in mind is that units who come in from DP's will be firing in Snapshot mode. Thus, against the 2+/3++ T5 Overlord with 4+ RP saves, even a unit of 10 combi-plasma sternguards will only cause 1 unsaved wound when they come in (20 plasma shots, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved wound).

Hmm, I'm not so sure. If that's true I certainly wouldn't worry, but the conclusion over in YMDC seemed to be that units deploying from Drop Pods fire normally on the turn that they come in, and only the pods themselves have to Snap Fire.

Disclaimer: Do not use this army (the Necron Airforce) against an opponent not equipped to deal with flyers. It is a very strong army and will frustrate many, especially in casual games. No one likes the feeling of helplessness, but that is how it will turn out if you have no way to deal with flyers.

We actually have one guy that has almost completed his necron air force. He started it wayy long ago with stand in models but it was always a favorite of his. was alot easier in 5th to deal with them but so far I've not had much luck with my old purifiers list given the new flier rules. Hopefully JY2's will do better. The Aegis line I've found out is good vs 1-2 fliers but I've been overwhelmed with them. It's only got 2 wounds >.< The intercept rule is good but doesn't stop alot from swarming. Not to mention all the crazy foot slogging gauss

A staggered formation tends to work better too. He can't really death ray more than 2 units/tanks at a go but does leave your units kind of out in the open quite a bit. After messing with it a bit, I think 6 necron fliers is actually more balanced of a list since you can still use quite alot of other goodies like wraiths and D-lord along with some assault oriented mini-royal court action that can get invasion beamed down with some ablative wound warriors.

@jy2: Thanks!

I just posted Pre-Game Analysis and first two turns.

More to come!

I wonder: does the Overlord snicker to himself, as the tanks approach, like some gleeful child with a prank about to be pulled? 9 flyers is quite a prank.

Nice to see the Doom Scythe do so well. When I first got the codex, I figured that was a unit I would never use. 6th is giving me some second thoughts now.

Ouch brutal t2!

I learned the hard way that doomscythes are no joke. Even hiding far back doesn't really work since it's 3d6 range. 12' + up to 36 on the move from table edge is just simply massive. You can't really find a safe spot from it.

Only interceptor and redundency tends to work. Put stuff into techmarine bolstered areas really helps and gotta zig zag placement/driving and move the AC dreadnaughts at some 18' away from eachother.

Clustering up in the middle really hurts but getting to midfield is not technically a bad idea since you can run uderneath it and just get shot once since he has to move at least 18' over you

he got 3 reserves less than the average turn2...would have been even worse.

there is no good counter to the flying circus. yeah, bring a quadgun and then pray for skyfire nexus'. that's about it.

Yeah I have to agree with Sudojoe. I learned about the Doomscythe the hard way also. My first game it took out a Bastion with its first shot causing 4d6 wounds on the marine squad inside. That's why I am not worried about fortifications. They can cause so much damage to the guys inside when they blow.

Ouch...that was a right-hook to the face.

But I still have a lot of fight left in me. For the next couple of turns, I'm just going to sit still and fire 48 psycannon shots at whatever flyer comes my way, starting with those doomscythes.

44 shots (you lost one right?) that's 7 hits 3.5 results say he evades you should only down one maybe two fliers. Now if turn three he plays conservative and stays outside most of your Pcanons range via pre-measuring and focuses on 2 or 3 units you have a problem as you should have to move to fire and you lose half your potency. It will depend on if that first turn went to his head or not and he continues to come head long to you, from here on out he should dictate the terms on which you battle.

I saw all those vehicles grouped together and started to get really excited. I then proceeded to pray the doom scythes came in. Then you got two and the results were amazing. Did you fire the tesla on the doom scythes as well?

Also whats this rule about snap firing on deep strike? I only see this for non-fast non-flyer vehicles and for heavy weapons withou relentless.

Fetterkey wrote:

jy2 wrote:Not scared of DP armies at all. One thing you have to keep in mind is that units who come in from DP's will be firing in Snapshot mode. Thus, against the 2+/3++ T5 Overlord with 4+ RP saves, even a unit of 10 combi-plasma sternguards will only cause 1 unsaved wound when they come in (20 plasma shots, 3 hits, 3 wounds, 1 unsaved wound).

Hmm, I'm not so sure. If that's true I certainly wouldn't worry, but the conclusion over in YMDC seemed to be that units deploying from Drop Pods fire normally on the turn that they come in, and only the pods themselves have to Snap Fire.

Tarrasq wrote:
Also whats this rule about snap firing on deep strike? I only see this for non-fast non-flyer vehicles and for heavy weapons withou relentless.

After going through the rulebook again, I must admit that I've made a mistake. I can't find any restrictions regarding firing from a unit that has just disembarked from a drop pod. Only the deepstriking vehicle will be firing at snapshot mode.

Turn 4:



Turn 5:



Turn 6:



Post-Game Analysis

POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Jy2:

Wow, that was quite an experience. The Necron airforce is strong. Real strong. With the ease of taking out most transports, it really does well against most mech lists. My poor grey knights with their AV11/12 vehicles just could not stand up to the shooting of the crons. Although they dominated in this game, I feel that this will not always be the case. I feel that a shooty grey knight army can compete, despite mine getting completely spanked this game (and by a novice necron player!). Why is this so? Because I feel that I lost this game only 1/3 through superior firepower/tactics, 1/3 via the dice and 1/3 via my own mistakes. As a matter of fact (ok, ok...actually a matter of opinion), had the dice been more average for me and had I not made some of the mistakes that I made, I believe the chances for the grey knights winning is more like 60-40 (I'd probably say necrons 60% win, grey knights 40% win...just my estimate).

Let's break down what led to the downfall of the grey knights and some of the mistakes that I made.

- Bunching up together. This is probably the biggest and most evident error on my part, as it allowed his doomscythes to do more damage than what they would probably normally do had I spread out. My concern here was for my own units to be within support range of each other. I also under-estimated the "reach" of the doomscythes with their 36" move. I was also hoping that SabrX wouldn't roll too high for his deathray distance, but each of the 3 times he fired them, I believe he got 12"-14" (average should be about 10.5").

- The dice. Not my best shooting game. Each unit of purifiers that shot puts up 8 psycannon shots. I would only average about 1-1.2 hits. Then I rolled poorly on the penetration rolls. There was a stretch where I fired 24 psycannon shots, only hit 3 times and rolled 3 3's to not even glance. My psyfleman, despite being twin-linked, couldn't hit jack.

- Tesla-destructors are just awesomesauce! Basically, each tesla-d that he fired incapacitated one of my vehicles. All he had to do was just glance 3 times and the vehicle would be down. And it's really hard to get cover from flyers. And it also helped that my opponent rolled well on the damage charts. Only maybe 2 or 3 times throughout the game when he penned, it was a shaken/stunned result. But mainly, he rolled higher on the damage charts.

- I moved too far up. I was hoping that would limit the maneurvability of his vehicles. Instead, it made it easier for his Overlord to assault and kill my units and for his doomscythes to hit multi-targets. In hindsight, I should have probably stayed behind and deployed more in a horizontal line.

- I forgot that heavy weapons could move and still fire. Since I was already shooting at flyers in Snapshot mode, I could have moved my guys and still shot with the Hvy 4 profile. I would have changed my strategy and spread out more had I been aware. So instead of sticking close together and staying still to fire, I could have spread and move as necessary and still be able to support my own units.

- I forgot that you couldn't assault after disembarking. Combined with being able to still shoot with heavy weapons, I should have disembarked my troops 1 turn earlier in anticipation of raping...I mean, dealing with his boss-man. Instead, I got gauss-raped (or maybe it was tesla-raped? ).

- SabrX's tactical play. Despite him playing necrons for only the very 2nd time (and flyers for the very first time), my opponent played very well. I was about to suggest that he moved his scythes and disembark his troops to surround my striker's rhino, but he did it by himself. He adapted very quickly to this army and didn't make any mistakes against me, whereas I made a bunch of mistakes that he exploited. I think my opponent may be a natural Necron player.


Despite the beating I took in this game, I've actually gained some confidence in my grey knights, because I feel that my knights can beat them. It won't be easy, but it is do-able. And now with a little more experience under my belt, the next time my knights face such an army, I guarantee that it will be a lot closer fight.

Me:

Necrons Airforce or any list that can cram in a lot of flyers is formidable in 6th ed. Alpha Strike grants a huge advantage as it almost guarantees first blood. Most armies can't counter an all flyers list. Those that do will be lacking to counter other armies. It's a rock-paper-scissors situation.

The Overlords performed well throughout the game. They are like one man armies, decimating anyone they get in combat with. I'm surprised both of them survived. Didn't have to roll a single ever-living roll.

Crypteks with Voltaic Staff are super effective against vehicles. Voltaic Staff has haywire special rule, so there's a high chance they'll glance to death whatever they are shooting at. AV14? No problem! Three glances will do the trick.

To be fair, jy2 was plague with bad luck throughout the game. Crowe fails Heroic Sacrifice, 2++ Warding Stave dies to Arc, Venerable Dread re-roll doesn't save it from penetration hit, a single turn shooting and flyers and not grounding a single one, failing dangerous terrain test on Rhino (which actually wasn't legal but neither of us knew at the time), most of the Justicars failing MSS test, and Justicar failing dangerous terrain test. Had Crowe and the Justicar with Warding Stave locked the Overlords in assault, the outcome of this game may have been very different.

While the Necron Airforce did sweep away the Grey Knights, there are some weaknesses. It's risky keeping Necron Warriors embarked and waiting for the last moment to go after objectives. The longer they stay in their transports, the more likely their transport could get shot down, forcing them to come in from the board edge. It's also a gamble because you don't know when the game will end. Tesla Destrcutors can also back fire and hit your own units. One major weakness to Necron Airforce is horde armies. Hordes can limit where flyers move. They can also sit on objectives and last it out. There's no way a small 5 Necron Warrior squad will push a fearless horde move off an objective at the last turn. Not unless you have an Overlord assault and try to draw them away.

I don't see the Necron Airforce being the most competitive army. Sure it will decimate any mech armies and has a lot of firepower to kill Deathstars, but it doesn't handle horde very well. It will struggle against blobs of guardmens, Green Tide, and Nids. I think a more balance Nids list with Overlords, Wraiths, Scarabs, Spyders, Necron Warriors in Night Scythes, and Doom Scythes is in a good position to handle most competitive lists.

This is possibly the silliest battle I've read yet. Complete and utter cluster-#$%^ in the middle combined with flyer spam. Awesome.

Carnage43 wrote:This is possibly the silliest battle I've read yet. Complete and utter cluster-#$%^ in the middle combined with flyer spam. Awesome.

We originally planned it to have an epic air battle between 9 Necron Flyers versus 5 Daemon Flyers.

However, jy2 was curious how one of the shootiest army fair against one of the hardest to hit armies.

BTW, IG could probably cram more flyers than Necrons, but it will be a nightmare moving flyer squadron flying bases in a 4' x 6' table. They are also limited to firing at the same target whereas the Necron's Doom Scythe and Tesla Destructors could hit multiple targets. Having said that, it is possible to ally IG and Necrons and cram in as much as 12 Flyers less than 2000 points. In fact I believe the minimum would be 1955 points. We'll need to borrow 3 additional flyers if we want to test this list.

IG (primary):
-1 CCS
-2 Vet Squads
-3 x 3 Vendettas

Necrons (detachment):
-Overlord
-2 x 5 Warriors w/ Night Scythe
-1 Doom Scythe

Necron Primary and IG detachment would also have 12 flyers, but exceed 1999 points cap before another FoC.

In hindsight, I think pure Necron Flyers is more flexible rather than trying to max out flyers. There still needs to be a ground presence.

I'm kind of confused, if you don't challenge the overlord, you still get to hit him with the other 2 purifiers right?

Is it just to stop the overlord from MSS'ing the halberd which may kill the squad?


This fight looked amazingly like my first test play with my purifiers vs the necron fliers too. Alot of painful lessons learned such as vehicle spacing and to not bothering trying to assault the overlords without a hammer somewhere. Also sucked that we rolled "purge the aliens - KP"

My purifiers just could not out shoot them and couldn't even out assault them which caused a complete revamp in my lists since 6th.

Just curious but did crowe fail his iron halo on his own rend or the warscythe?

You also get re-rolls for being in a challenge against a lone individual character when you have a unit of 5+ models .... That could be a further motivating factor.

DexKivuli wrote:You also get re-rolls for being in a challenge against a lone individual character when you have a unit of 5+ models .... That could be a further motivating factor.

ya I saw that but he's only got 3 man team, he won't get any benefits of rerolls. It's one of the problems with going MSU

sudojoe wrote:I'm kind of confused, if you don't challenge the overlord, you still get to hit him with the other 2 purifiers right?

Is it just to stop the overlord from MSS'ing the halberd which may kill the squad?

My plan was to lock him in place. If I hadn't challenged him, there was a chance that he could have wiped out the entire unit. He was just too hard to kill now that he gets his 2+ against my force weapons. Also, he was a scoring unit due to his Warlord trait. Imagine if he had got the Relic....I wouldn't have been able to make him drop it unless I had focussed my entire army on him and ignored the flyers.

This fight looked amazingly like my first test play with my purifiers vs the necron fliers too. Alot of painful lessons learned such as vehicle spacing and to not bothering trying to assault the overlords without a hammer somewhere. Also sucked that we rolled "purge the aliens - KP"

My purifiers just could not out shoot them and couldn't even out assault them which caused a complete revamp in my lists since 6th.

Just curious but did crowe fail his iron halo on his own rend or the warscythe?

Yeah, Crowe failed his 4++. I believe it was one of each. I wanted to suicide him to take out his scoring HQ.

In hindsight, I should have just Blade Parry.

My plan was to lock him in place. If I hadn't challenged him, there was a chance that he could have wiped out the entire unit. He was just too hard to kill now that he gets his 2+ against my force weapons. Also, he was a scoring unit due to his Warlord trait. Imagine if he had got the Relic....I wouldn't have been able to make him drop it unless I had focussed my entire army on him and ignored the flyers.

ah so it's more of a prevent a morale check? But purifiers are fearless, they won't break, the staff still gets the 2++ bbut you do stand to lose the other 2 models which really don't do that much. I guess if you lose your staff on the challenge, you'll still get another round with the overlord killing the other 2 members so I guess it works. Just that you are missing some 6 extra hits which may put him down too so I guess it's just a trade off for the safer bet.

I really should fill up on some night scythes and doom scythes methinks! This is one crazy battle

I have to say, i think I saw this one coming, parking lots just can't take the death ray, the fact it can hit multiple targets in a line, with STR 10 AP 1, is just murder on rhino/razorspam, auto-glancing, and then 5/6 chance of a penetrating hit, and a 1/3 chance of exploding?

Parking lots just play right into the hand of this Necron build. Granted, being more spread out may have helped matters some. (ex not getting all the psyrifle dreads blown away in a turn.)

Did mister turtle go in the rhino at one point? I am pretty sure you drop the relic if you try to go in a transport.

Loving the battle reports so far. Trying to work in Anti-Flyer stuff into my lists now.

Leth wrote:Did mister turtle go in the rhino at one point? I am pretty sure you drop the relic if you try to go in a transport.

Loving the battle reports so far. Trying to work in Anti-Flyer stuff into my lists now.

You can still embark in a transport. It's just that the transport can't move more than 6". The mission even tells you that if you embark it onto a zooming flyer, then you will wreck the flyer as a zooming flyer has to move 18" but can't with the objective in it.

Get the Quad-gun, preferably in an Imperial Bastion.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

sudojoe wrote:

My plan was to lock him in place. If I hadn't challenged him, there was a chance that he could have wiped out the entire unit. He was just too hard to kill now that he gets his 2+ against my force weapons. Also, he was a scoring unit due to his Warlord trait. Imagine if he had got the Relic....I wouldn't have been able to make him drop it unless I had focussed my entire army on him and ignored the flyers.

ah so it's more of a prevent a morale check? But purifiers are fearless, they won't break, the staff still gets the 2++ bbut you do stand to lose the other 2 models which really don't do that much. I guess if you lose your staff on the challenge, you'll still get another round with the overlord killing the other 2 members so I guess it works. Just that you are missing some 6 extra hits which may put him down too so I guess it's just a trade off for the safer bet.

No, it isn't an issue of morale. It's more of an issue of damage control to prevent the threat of MSS and his warscythes from spilling over and killing the other guys after he kills my warding stave. My aim was to hold him in combat as my chances to kill him with just 2 force weapons (possibly only 1 due to MSS) realistically wasn't very high.

jy2 wrote:

Leth wrote:Did mister turtle go in the rhino at one point? I am pretty sure you drop the relic if you try to go in a transport.

Loving the battle reports so far. Trying to work in Anti-Flyer stuff into my lists now.

You can still embark in a transport. It's just that the transport can't move more than 6". The mission even tells you that if you embark it onto a zooming flyer, then you will wreck the flyer as a zooming flyer has to move 18" but can't with the objective in it.

Get the Quad-gun, preferably in an Imperial Bastion.

Too bad the Quad-gun only comes from the Aegis Defence line box set and the Bastion does not. GW making a lot of dough off the new rules.

Lego Bastion or Quad-guns anyone?

iGuy91 wrote:I have to say, i think I saw this one coming, parking lots just can't take the death ray, the fact it can hit multiple targets in a line, with STR 10 AP 1, is just murder on rhino/razorspam, auto-glancing, and then 5/6 chance of a penetrating hit, and a 1/3 chance of exploding?

Parking lots just play right into the hand of this Necron build. Granted, being more spread out may have helped matters some. (ex not getting all the psyrifle dreads blown away in a turn.)

It's actually a 50% chance to explode now that AP 1 is +2 on the table.

Too bad the Quad-gun only comes from the Aegis Defence line box set and the Bastion does not. GW making a lot of dough off the new rules.

Lego Bastion or Quad-guns anyone?

OOOO that's a great idea!

I can also buy enough spare Gundam parts from Akihabra over here for about 800 Yen to build some semblance of beam cannon quad guns
(your local hobby shop supplies may vary)

sudojoe wrote:

Too bad the Quad-gun only comes from the Aegis Defence line box set and the Bastion does not. GW making a lot of dough off the new rules.

Lego Bastion or Quad-guns anyone?

OOOO that's a great idea!

I can also buy enough spare Gundam parts from Akihabra over here for about 800 Yen to build some semblance of beam cannon quad guns
(your local hobby shop supplies may vary)

Spare Gundam parts? Lucky!

I bought a 1/100 scale Heavy Arms Custom Gundam model from Anime Expo a few weeks ago. Its double barrel Gatling Guns is enormous! I'm in the process of building and writing custom 40k rules for it. It will make a great addition to my Tau army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just posted the last two turns, 5 and 6.

Post-Game Analysis coming soon!

Turn 5 he embarked strikes and immobilized his tank trying to go flat out... You cannot flat out when you embark I thought? At any rate, good game, seems jy2's dice were letting him down for once at every single turn. I also think had he placed his dreads in the back field and spread apart for AA support he would have done better, bunching up was a poor choice.

Red Corsair wrote:Turn 5 he embarked strikes and immobilized his tank trying to go flat out... You cannot flat out when you embark I thought? At any rate, good game, seems jy2's dice were letting him down for once at every single turn. I also think had he placed his dreads in the back field and spread apart for AA support he would have done better, bunching up was a poor choice.

Just read last paragraph on page 78. Good catch!

It wouldn't make a difference in this game as it didn't budge an inch.

I dont think fliers get a jink save unless they are dodging or in hover mode

Leth wrote:I dont think fliers get a jink save unless they are dodging or in hover mode

Flyers can choose to evade and get a jink save until the end of their next turn. In doing so, they can only snap fire until their next turn.

If you know your flyers aren't in a position to do any damage next turn due to compulsory 18" move with 90 degree arc, weapons being 45 degree arc, and most likely flying off the table, then you might as well Evade when getting shot at. Nothing to lose since they won't be any effective next turn.

Most of jy2's army was clump up in the middle and close to my board edge. There wasn't anything for my flyers to shoot at after 90 degree pivot and 18" movement.

Good report

Until people properly embrace fortifications in their army lists, or Skyfire is more easily obtainable in new codecies I think this flyer spam is going to be a very solid build.

Great report guys!


I do have to say that I disagree with the interpretation that allows you to start so many of the Necron units off the table.

If you look at the rules for Deep Strike on page 36 you will see that they are very specific that models embarked upon transports that must be deployed via Deep Strike are ignored for figuring out how many units must start on the table:

"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored."

The basic reserve rules, on page 124 on the other hand, say:

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

In that second sentence, the 'these purposes' can only possibly be the same 'purposes' as the sentence above it, so in actuality the sentence says:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so].'


Therefore we basically have two rules:

1) Units that always must start in reserves (like Flyers) are ignored.
2) A unit and its dedicated transport count as a single unit.


So yes, the flyers are ignored, but the fact that the embarked unit and the transport count as only a single unit in no way passes on the 'ignore' rule to the embarked unit.

Therefore, IMHO the Necron force should have had to start half of its non-flyer units on the table.

i've been telling a couple of friends of mine that very same thing Yakface.

IDC how many flyers they bring, I relish the fact that (if I win 1st turn) that I pretty much get x2 turns to burn 1/3 of their army down since it might be a unit of wraiths, a surflord, and a couple squads of warriors.

seeing that 5/6 missions are objective based, you can really focus fire the croissants holding troops as they come in piecemeal. not to mention the excellent tactic of bumb rushing to their side of the board. (though i'd have spread out those dreds more).

I'm most curious as to what we'll be seeing in the tournament scene with necron air force on necron air force but strongly feel like necrons will be overly represented at the next tournament and probably about 1/8th the number of pure GK lists we've seen before.

With how well MSU works, I'm really curious how well the storm talons will do with some drop pods. Could easily Alpha strike a necron flier list off the board turn 1.

I'm still working hard on comming up with some sort of staple 6th ed GK lists personally. Always interested in seeing what some other people's ideas may be and so far , we have the necron air force in our area that I have yet to beat.(or anyone for that matter yet) so quite interested in seeing some more ideas.

@yak, I agree with you on this.

I think it is in the necron best interest anyway, or you will see rune priests allied with other marines in drop pods just in case. Imagine a SW list with 2-4 RP with jaws podding in and RFGing your necron lord on turn 1......GG thanks for coming, too bad you only got to unpack the overlord.

Red Corsair wrote:@yak, I agree with you on this.

I think it is in the necron best interest anyway, or you will see rune priests allied with other marines in drop pods just in case. Imagine a SW list with 2-4 RP with jaws podding in and RFGing your necron lord on turn 1......GG thanks for coming, too bad you only got to unpack the overlord.

If I see someone play a Necron list like this, I'd probably drop all my daemons around him and light him up with as many shots as possible.

yakface wrote:
Great report guys!


I do have to say that I disagree with the interpretation that allows you to start so many of the Necron units off the table.

If you look at the rules for Deep Strike on page 36 you will see that they are very specific that models embarked upon transports that must be deployed via Deep Strike are ignored for figuring out how many units must start on the table:

"When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored."

The basic reserve rules, on page 124 on the other hand, say:

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

In that second sentence, the 'these purposes' can only possibly be the same 'purposes' as the sentence above it, so in actuality the sentence says:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so].'


Therefore we basically have two rules:

1) Units that always must start in reserves (like Flyers) are ignored.
2) A unit and its dedicated transport count as a single unit.


So yes, the flyers are ignored, but the fact that the embarked unit and the transport count as only a single unit in no way passes on the 'ignore' rule to the embarked unit.

Therefore, IMHO the Necron force should have had to start half of its non-flyer units on the table.

Yakface,

Good to hear you chime in. I hadn't really given this much thought because I though the rule was rather clear. Upon further examination, it appears that the rule isn't quite as crystal clear. However, I still see a case for the troops to be in reserves with their dedicated transport.

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

The preceding quote can be interpreted as what you say:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so].'

However, that is only partially true. It can also be intepreted as follows:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so with the condition that units that must start in reserves are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.].'

Now that is the full rule for reserves.

Also, a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes could mean 2 things:

1. If the transport does not have to start in reserves, then it counts as a single unit when calculating how many units start off on the board.

2. If the transport must start off in reserves, then it counts as a single unit that is ignored when calculating how many units must start off on the board (because the flyer itself, with or without passengers, is still a single unit that is ignored).


Personally, RAW may not necessarily be 100% clear but I believe it is clear enough so that the way we played is legal.


I do agree, however, that IC's count as a separate unit. So the way we played - 1 IC in reserves and 1 IC on the table - was correct as well.

After reading the paragraph on page 124 of the BRB, I agree with jy2's assessment.

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

That leaves the two Overlords, which I deployed first turn. That is half my units deploy able units.

I believe the reserve rules regarding dedicated transports was intended for pure drop pod armies. Necron Airforce benefits as well.

Seems like BA pure DoA armies got slightly nerf by the reserve rules. Fortunately, that's not my play style when I play BA

It's a two part problem. The first problem is that you are not working out how many units must start on the table, but how many may be placed in reserve. The end results are very different.

Overlord = 1
Overlord = 1
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Night Scythe + Warriors = Ignored
Doom Scythe = Ignored
Doom Scythe = Ignored
Doom Scythe = Ignored

Total = 2
Cut in half = 1

So one unit that does not have to be deployed in reserves, may do so. The second part of the problem is that the Warriors do not actually HAVE to deploy in reserves with the Night Scythes. They are simply counted as one unit (and subsequently ignored) along with the Night Scythes for determining the number of units that may start in reserves, but once you figure out the actual units that may start in reserves or on the table, it looks like this:

Overlord
Overlord
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors

and due to our previous figures, only one of those may be put into reserves.


Edit: now it's arguable that once you place them inside of a transport that must start in reserves, then they also must start in reserves, since the transport doesn't have a choice.

I think it might also comes down to timing as when all this is checked.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since I'm particularly interested in how this plays out, I added this to YMDC here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/462965.page

The air force armies are going to be so frustrating to play.

I agree with Jy2 on this rules issue. I don't want to, haha, but I think they played it right and it is how we read the rule, too.

jy2 wrote:
Yakface,

Good to hear you chime in. I hadn't really given this much thought because I though the rule was rather clear. Upon further examination, it appears that the rule isn't quite as crystal clear. However, I still see a case for the troops to be in reserves with their dedicated transport.

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

The preceding quote can be interpreted as what you say:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so].'

However, that is only partially true. It can also be intepreted as follows:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so with the condition that units that must start in reserves are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.].'

Now that is the full rule for reserves.

Also, a unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes could mean 2 things:

1. If the transport does not have to start in reserves, then it counts as a single unit when calculating how many units start off on the board.

2. If the transport must start off in reserves, then it counts as a single unit that is ignored when calculating how many units must start off on the board (because the flyer itself, with or without passengers, is still a single unit that is ignored).


Personally, RAW may not necessarily be 100% clear but I believe it is clear enough so that the way we played is legal.


I do agree, however, that IC's count as a separate unit. So the way we played - 1 IC in reserves and 1 IC on the table - was correct as well.

I'll make one more counter point to this and then I'll call it a day as I don't want to derail this thread into a rules discussion any more than I already have:

The problem with your interpretation above is that you're reading the rules as though they are written specially to address transports that must start in reserve, which is not what they are. They are two separate rules written to cover two different types of situations, which only sometimes intersect.

The first rule is written to cover units that must start in reserve. This absolutely can be units that are not transports, such as DE flyers, for example. So the rule simply tells us that these types of units are ignored when figuring out how many units have to start on the table.

The second rule is written to cover transports and their embarked units, and tells us that these count as only a single unit for determining how many units have to start on the table.

But these are not one and the same rule as people are trying to make them be...that would be the Deep Strike transport rule which actually IS what people are trying to make these two rules together into being.

So just to point out, here is how the rule would have been written if it was to say what you're saying it does:

"Units that must start the game in reserve (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

But of course the rules don't actually say this. They say that the unit which must start in reserve is ignored and that a transport and its contents are counted as a single unit as well.

So what do we have when we have a flyer with an embarked unit in reserve? You have two units, one of which is explicitly ignored and the other which is not. If the transported unit and the transport are both considered a single choice the why are you assuming you use the transports 'ignore this unit for counting' status and not the embarked units explicit need to be counted?

That's what I'm not seeing. People are making the assumption that because the transport and the unit both count as a single unit for the purposes of working out how many units must start on the table somehow this means that the transport's rule about being ignored is somehow passed onto the transported unit. Where is the logical conclusion that allows this to happen? Why isn't the transported unit's need to be counted applied onto the transport? Why are you automatically assuming its the other way around?


The final point I'll make that I believe shows that the rule as you're interpreting it is not correct comes down to the whole POINT of the rule. The goal of the rule is clearly to stop situations where players are stuck 'wasting' 2 turns of the game with their opponents army off the table. The few army builds that are explicity allowed to start completely off the table (Drop Pods & Daemons) have a built in mechanic that forces them into the game on turn 1.

I don't believe that the 'if you finish a game turn with no models on the table you lose' rule is supposed to be some sort of crazy gambling easter egg that players have to risk how many of their flyer embarked units they want to start on the table. The whole POINT of this rule is, with a few exceptions, to dismantle the whole concept of the all reserve army as something you see. But the problem is (I believe) that players are still in the mindset that these kinds of builds are appropriate and therefore they're looking at the rules with a bit of tunnel vision and thereby combining two rules together that aren't actually saying what they want them to.


Yes, units that must start in reserve are ignored for determining how many units must start on the table and yes embarked units and there transports count as a single unit for these purposes as well, but NOTHING in that statement says that the two units counting a single unit somehow means that the 'ignore' status of the transport somehow overrides the need of the embarked unit to be counted.

I believe that the Deep Strike rules give an appropriate precedent:

"Some units that must arrive by Deep Strike. They always
begin the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
When working out how many units can be placed in reserve,
units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any
models embarked upon them) are ignored."

Therefore a Drop Pod and Tactical Squad do not count when calculating how many units can be held in reserve.

You *could* do some convolutions to somehow imply that this only applies to deep striking units, but I think that it's a clear precedent that an "all deep strike" or "all reserves" army is still possible, whether we like it or not, GW has written it in to make it possible.

barontuman wrote:I believe that the Deep Strike rules give an appropriate precedent:

"Some units that must arrive by Deep Strike. They always
begin the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.
When working out how many units can be placed in reserve,
units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any
models embarked upon them) are ignored."

Therefore a Drop Pod and Tactical Squad do not count when calculating how many units can be held in reserve.

You *could* do some convolutions to somehow imply that this only applies to deep striking units, but I think that it's a clear precedent that an "all deep strike" or "all reserves" army is still possible, whether we like it or not, GW has written it in to make it possible.

Arrrgh, breaking my promise not to continue this (sorry)...


There are absolutely NO convolutions needed! This rule (as I've stated above a couple times now) shows how the rule needs to be written to say what people are claiming it does.

So it is quite clear (to me at least) that units embarked on transports that must arrive by Deep Strike are ignored, while units embarked on ANY OTHER kind of transport are not ignored, even if their transport is.

yakface wrote:
But of course the rules don't actually say this. They say that the unit which must start in reserve is ignored and that a transport and its contents are counted as a single unit as well.

We should leave it at that.

So what do we have when we have a flyer with an embarked unit in reserve? You have two units, one of which is explicitly ignored and the other which is not. If the transported unit and the transport are both considered a single choice the why are you assuming you use the transports 'ignore this unit for counting' status and not the embarked units explicit need to be counted?

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

Not sure why you say one is explicitley ignored and the other is not. The term 'and' is a logical conjunction that can be true if and only if both operands are true. "A unit (Necron Warriors) and its Dedicated transport (Night Scythe) are acounted as a single unit for these purposes."

The sentence on page 124 in BRB under Reserves overides unit and their dedicated transport being considered seperate for the purposes of determining how many units are in reserves. If GW wants to make it blatantly clear that this sentence only applies to deep strike transports, then they would have mentioned it there. However, deep striking transports aren't the only vehicles that are forced to come in from reserves. Flyers must also begin the game in reserves.

SabrX wrote:

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

All this means is that you count them as one when running the numbers to see how many can. In the case of a flying transport this is redundant but they hd to put this clause in for armies that field normal transports such as rhinos.The rules are permissive and in the case of deep striking it specifically gives you permission to ignore the embarked unit. No where i the rules allowing you to exclude fliers from the equation does it allow you to exclude a transported unit. To me this means the rules allow you to start half of your units to start in reserve but all dedicated NS.

By your interpretation you could bring one lord and reserve him as well for an auto loss.

SabrX wrote:

yakface wrote:
But of course the rules don't actually say this. They say that the unit which must start in reserve is ignored and that a transport and its contents are counted as a single unit as well.

We should leave it at that.

So what do we have when we have a flyer with an embarked unit in reserve? You have two units, one of which is explicitly ignored and the other which is not. If the transported unit and the transport are both considered a single choice the why are you assuming you use the transports 'ignore this unit for counting' status and not the embarked units explicit need to be counted?

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

Not sure why you say one is explicitley ignored and the other is not. The term 'and' is a logical conjunction that can be true if and only if both operands are true. "A unit (Necron Warriors) and its Dedicated transport (Night Scythe) are acounted as a single unit for these purposes."

The sentence on page 124 in BRB under Reserves overides unit and their dedicated transport being considered seperate for the purposes of determining how many units are in reserves. If GW wants to make it blatantly clear that this sentence only applies to deep strike transports, then they would have mentioned it there. However, deep striking transports aren't the only vehicles that are forced to come in from reserves. Flyers must also begin the game in reserves.

OK, last response really and truly I promise.

Having a transport and its contents count as a single unit is not the same thing as having the transport and its content both ignored. Those are two very, very different concepts.

The two rules on page 124 are not there specifically to cover transports that must start in reserve, but are there to cover ALL transports (except for those that must arrive via Deep Strike which have their own more specific rule).

So let's say you have a Dark Eldar army with a bomber and a Raider that has an embarked unit. The first reserves rule on pg 124 just tells you that your bomber doesn't count towards the number of units that have to start on the table. The second rule tells you that your Raider and embarked unit count as only one unit.

That is the point of those two rules...they cover two different situations. The second rule is not a proviso to the first one.

So are Night Scythes ignored for the purposes of calculating how many units must deploy on the table? Yes.
Are their embarked units and the Night Scythe together counted as only a single unit for the purposes of calculating how many units must deploy on the table? Yes.
But is there any rule stating that the embarked unit is ignored along with its transport? No there isn't. Just because the two units are counted as one, does not mean the unit inside loses its requirement to be counted.

This is distinctly contrasted by the Deep Striking rules which actually SAY that the embarked unit is ignored along with its transport.


Anyway, feel free to rebut, but if I feel the need to respond to that, I'll go start a thread in YMDC.



---


Oh and about the battle itself, do you guys think if you had driven forward the first turn 6", dumped the Grey Knights out and then in the 2nd turn spread the force out to cover as much table as possible you would have both limited the damage that the Death Rays could do AND really limit where the Scythes could effectively move?

It seems like with those giant flyer bases you can actually force flyers to move into bad positions this way by spreading out and covering a lot of table space. It did look like you were trying to do just that mid-game but I'm wondering if you thought in hindsight that starting to spread out earlier would have produced a better result for the GK?

Again I think yak has the rule correct. I really don't understand how this gets confused by people. The NS is the ONLY dedicated flying transport, and yes there is redundancy in certain lists do to that as you are essentially only counting the flier restriction as the transport rule becomes redundant.

As far as your strategy yak, I have thought over that strategy myself. you have plenty of time plus the new rules actually make all vehicles faster. move 6, rotate, disembark and spread out six, move every one again in the shooting phase. You essentially can cover half the table easily due to the fact those bases are huge and its even worse needing to stay >1" from enemies. then just move the relic between your own units to your edge. Ironically Crowe sucks because of the slay the warlord VP now as he isn't an IC so I think cheap inquisitor war lords will be taken lol. Otherwise line breaker would have been a wash, possibly warlord, so he would have given up first blood but taken the relic for the win.

BTW a quad gun fired by Crowe to intercept first blood would have been epic.

I guess the big downside to spreading out massively is that now the Tesla arcs get a chance to hit like every unit you have practically.

But I suppose you have to pick your poison in this case and it seems like doing the full-on spread is the way to go.

yakface wrote:Anyway, feel free to rebut, but if I feel the need to respond to that, I'll go start a thread in YMDC.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/462965.page

Tried several posts back to avoid the derailment here...


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yakface wrote:
I guess the big downside to spreading out massively is that now the Tesla arcs get a chance to hit like every unit you have practically.

But I suppose you have to pick your poison in this case and it seems like doing the full-on spread is the way to go.

At least it's not as bad as packing your army into one large lump in the middle of the table like some of the pictures in this game

Spreading out will minimize it to 1-2 units being threatened per volley vs 4-6 when they are all clumped up.

Sure the rhinos aren't overly threatened much by the S5, but you drop the doom scythes in first and pop a couple rhinos to get more...conductive...bodies on the field. Then roll up with the tesla and watch the sparks fly.

To be fair though, it is difficult to manage spreading out to avoid the tesla and death rays and still keep most of your force effective for grabbing the single objective.

Here is my logic.

A flyer is a single unit, right? Even though it doesn't count towards the number of units used to determine how many units can be deployed, it is still a single unit, is it not?

Now we have:

0. "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

So we have a flyer, which is a single unit, but which does not count towards the total because it is ignored.


Then we have a flyer and its passengers, which is also a single unit. Question is, does it count towards the total?

I believe the answer lies in "for these purposes." What does that mean, for these purposes? I believe there are 2 interpretations:

As Yakface puts it:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so].'

However, as I've said before, this is only partially correct. Because that is only part of the rules for reserves.

This is my intepretation:

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so and that units that must start in reserves are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.].'

This is the full rule for Reserves. It is a 2-part rule - 1) half of the units can be deployed in reserves and 2) units that must start off in reserves are ignored.

There is a transitive property here. And it's this:

Dedicated transport and passengers = 1 unit. Transport cannot be deployed because it is a flyer. Passengers deployed in the transport counts as 1 unit also, but because that unit is ignored for the purposes of how many to be deployed, then passengers are ignored as well.


-----------------------------


Oops. Ninja'd by Maelstrom's YMDC thread. I'll post this over there.

Please respond in his YMDC thread posted above instead. Thanks.

Post-Game Analysis posted.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I hope you've enjoyed reading this battle report.

SabrX wrote:Post-Game Analysis posted.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I hope you've enjoyed reading this battle report.

Absolutely enjoyed it, thanks for posting it. I rarely read bat reports anymore unless it's from one of your crew.

Sabr-X I happen to agree quite wholeheartedly with your post-game analysis. I have only played a single game of 6th with my Necrons but I found that too many fliers can really cripple the army's resilience.

My own experience was with 6 fliers (3 Doom, 3 Night) and while they did inflict a ton of damage (the Doom Scythes especially), ultimately it's the boots on the ground who win you games and I just didn't have enough. I have now altered my list to give me a stronger backbone by taking out a Night Scythe and a couple of Crypteks who start embarked on Scythes.


A great report overall. I'm having a lot less time than usual to play thanks to the arrival of our first child so I appreciate these reps even more than I used to. Thanks for taking the time to add so much depth...it really helps with those adjusting to 6th (me included).

Pretty much the same lessons I took away from my purifiers vs a friend's necrons too. We both came to the same conclusions on how to improve the necrons i.e. some assault/foot units as well

Now my GK on the other hand feels like they should be at least decent but we're just discovering just how many nerfs they really got this edition. I'm not nearly as certain as JY2 in that I can use a similar list to the same degree of success but I am eager to hear his future battle reports on this.

On the flip side, I did pick up some tips as well including having crowe man the quad cannon would be a nice spot to hide the guy and be useful. Someone else also mentioned that you can disembark, then shoot, then have the vehicle "flat out" during the shooting phase to block LOS to said GK now on foot. Vehicle gets blown up and then you can charge next turn. Unfortunately this probably won't work against fliers. (I'm gonna update the GK discussion thread in tactics with some of these tid bits)

The discussion on moving past 1/2 way could help to reduce the amount of fire you end up taking I am interested in trying out in the future.

Also kind of interested in hearing your guys's thoughts on alot more incinerator use and dedicate more shooting to say an allied force or maybe some henchmen monkies in the back?

Cant flat out move on the same turn you embark/disembark. Also IMO Grey Knights got relative nerfs more so than actually nerfed. They are still a powerful army, they are just not as over powering as before.

You guys were the kid with the super soaker that unloaded 1/2 a gallon in a shot. Now its down to a pint


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flyers are good, however I would say most of them will miss out on shooting from either being in reserve or going off the table/forced movement removing their shots. So having a large portion of your army only firing sometimes is risky.

Also anyone who can get in your deployment zone first turn is going to be a problem. Auto lose turn one is a nice little addition

Not convinced by YakFace's arguement. But I don't get cauht up in these sort of arguements any longer.

As for anti-flyer strategy, getting into the enemies deployment zone really limits the number of shots that the enemy is capable of delivering with the flyers. Their lack of manuverability means that you fly on, get a single shot, then have to fly off again. Meaning that at you'll get at most 3 turns of firing per flyer. Not really stellar in this situation. However, the way likely to achieve this is an all/mostly deep strike army. But the key takeaway is that spreading out in your own deployment zone gives the ideal situation, while in their deployment zone, it's very difficult on the flyers.

Leth wrote:Cant flat out move on the same turn you embark/disembark. Also IMO Grey Knights got relative nerfs more so than actually nerfed. They are still a powerful army, they are just not as over powering as before.

You guys were the kid with the super soaker that unloaded 1/2 a gallon in a shot. Now its down to a pint


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flyers are good, however I would say most of them will miss out on shooting from either being in reserve or going off the table/forced movement removing their shots. So having a large portion of your army only firing sometimes is risky.

Also anyone who can get in your deployment zone first turn is going to be a problem. Auto lose turn one is a nice little addition

actually you are allowed to flat out provided you did not move the vehicle prior to the unit disembarking. Page 79 and 78.You are prohibited from ramming or tank shocking but you can still flat out as you get to move normally there after and there is no preventing flat out moves.

Page 72 also describes Flat out in the top box and again you are not prohibited.

Seems my fears are coming true, the horrible transportspam parkinglots of 5:ed will become swapped for flyerspam in 6:ed.
Thanks GW...

Pyriel- wrote:Seems my fears are coming true, the horrible transportspam parkinglots of 5:ed will become swapped for flyerspam in 6:ed.
Thanks GW...

I think that isn't a likely scenario for a number of reasons. First off, it presumes that GW will rule on the positive side of allowing (nearly) all flyer armies in reserve. They could just as easily rule the other way which would mean that several more units would have to start on the table which would definitely limit this army style a tad bit.

In addition, right now and this moment, flyers are at the absolute pinnacle of their power. Only one codex unit was given Skyfire (Hydras) and of course fortification emplaced guns. Several armies still don't have natural (non-allied) access to flyers which are naturally counters to other flyers.

So at this magical moment in time, flyers are the bomb (pun intended) and likely flyer models are flying off the shelves (again, pun intended).

However, that means with each and every codex GW releases, the amount of things in the game that can counter flyers an only possibly increase. When the CSM codex comes out even if they just get an official flyer then that alone helps to increase balance across the system a bit, and if they get ANY units that can take skyfire for an effective cost, then all of a sudden the overall worth of flyers drops a bit because now you have another 'rock' out there that beats your 'scissors'. And if GW doesn't do either of those things with the new CSM codex, then nothing has changed and flyers haven't gotten any 'better' (things just stayed status quo).

But we've seen the rulebook we know that flakk missiles exist in GW's psyche and that means somebody is going to get them and there probably will be one or more codexes that also have dedicated special anti-air rules as well. All it really takes is ONE codex that has some broken crazy anti-flyer units and it will totally shift the tournament meta-game exactly how the combo of Dark Eldar poison weapons and Grey Knight insta-death meant the end of Tyranid armies as a mainstay on the circuit.

So IMHO, anyone investing in a flyer-heavy army should be going into it knowing that in 1-3 years there's a decent chance that competitively these units will turn into a big gamble instead of a sure thing.

Because unlike the general vehicle rules in 5th edition, flyer rules are completely and utterly dependent on the lack of skyfire to make them powerful. As soon as anything starts slipping into the game that has skyfire and is also generally effective at doing other things (like Missile launchers with flakk missiles, for example), all of sudden flyers will become a huge gamble in any take call comers scenario where you may or may not face armies that are designed to obliterate your flyers.

I know I'm probably crazy but why didn't you deepstrike your Strikes and at least attempt to blast the overlord off the table? Since it's an all flyer list and you don't have worry about any crazy CC units eating the Strikes you might as well give it a shot.

Outside of that I say enjoy the style of list. I don't think it'll last more than a year but it'll be kinda fun.

yakface wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:Seems my fears are coming true, the horrible transportspam parkinglots of 5:ed will become swapped for flyerspam in 6:ed.
Thanks GW...

I think that isn't a likely scenario for a number of reasons. First off, it presumes that GW will rule on the positive side of allowing (nearly) all flyer armies in reserve. They could just as easily rule the other way which would mean that several more units would have to start on the table which would definitely limit this army style a tad bit.

In addition, right now and this moment, flyers are at the absolute pinnacle of their power. Only one codex unit was given Skyfire (Hydras) and of course fortification emplaced guns. Several armies still don't have natural (non-allied) access to flyers which are naturally counters to other flyers.

So at this magical moment in time, flyers are the bomb (pun intended) and likely flyer models are flying off the shelves (again, pun intended).

However, that means with each and every codex GW releases, the amount of things in the game that can counter flyers an only possibly increase. When the CSM codex comes out even if they just get an official flyer then that alone helps to increase balance across the system a bit, and if they get ANY units that can take skyfire for an effective cost, then all of a sudden the overall worth of flyers drops a bit because now you have another 'rock' out there that beats your 'scissors'. And if GW doesn't do either of those things with the new CSM codex, then nothing has changed and flyers haven't gotten any 'better' (things just stayed status quo).

Definitely sounds like a GW marketing strategy. It was no coincidence that before 6th ed release, Storm Raven price increase by 20% a few months ago. Scratch one for marketing. As people buy more flyers, GW will switch to creating new units to help counter them. Scratch two for marketing.

And let's face it, balance isn't GW's main goal. They've been known to upset sub-groups of the community through nerfs and creating an imbalance. GK codex extreme prejudice towards Daemons is an example (though with the new ally rules, it gives Daemon players alternatives). Nerfs to GK in 6th ed (Unusual Force Weapons being AP3 now) and white dwarf codex Sisters of Battle are also great examples. Nid community can't ally, many faction's can't use 6th ed BRB rule book, and huge nerfs to vehicles.

Speaking of vehicles, 5th ed they were the hottest thing. Now in 6th ed, flyers, hydra, and tank that lobs high strength low AP large blasts are popular. Infantry is the way to go. Another boost in sales, but this time infantry models. Scratch 3 for marketing.

I'm always amazed how people complain about weak units and how GW can't balance the game, but when they're buffed it's just a marketing scheme.

At the end of the day, I don't think GW's priority is competitive play, and balancing a game that has so many variables already is more difficult than most people give it credit.

I'd like to see this army tested on 'the relic'.

NecronLord3 wrote:I'd like to see this army tested on 'the relic'.

The mission was 'the relic'.

As you can see, they did quite well.

Because unlike the general vehicle rules in 5th edition, flyer rules are completely and utterly dependent on the lack of skyfire to make them powerful.

And some armies have zero acces to these flak missiles. GK for example dont get missile devastators.
Thus what GW is creating is an even worse situation of rock paper scissors then we previously had.

And about flyers being toned own, I dont know, remember, GW needs to sell models...

To me 6:ed seems far more fun for casual gaming but a utter disaster in competitive settings and when facing spamming power gamers. It just saps all fun out of the game.


Edit: spelling

Hulksmash wrote:I know I'm probably crazy but why didn't you deepstrike your Strikes and at least attempt to blast the overlord off the table? Since it's an all flyer list and you don't have worry about any crazy CC units eating the Strikes you might as well give it a shot.

Outside of that I say enjoy the style of list. I don't think it'll last more than a year but it'll be kinda fun.

Deepstriking means that they won't come in until at least Turn 2. By that time, the scythes should already be in. Besides, it's no guarantee that I will kill him even with my shooting, and if I should scatter, I may not even see him. Basically, the payoff wasn't worth the risk to leave them exposed.

What I want was for my most resilient unit to grab the relic, and that would be my 10-man squad.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ricter wrote:I'm always amazed how people complain about weak units and how GW can't balance the game, but when they're buffed it's just a marketing scheme.

At the end of the day, I don't think GW's priority is competitive play, and balancing a game that has so many variables already is more difficult than most people give it credit.

Honestly, I don't think they really gave much thought to game balance at all. You know when you allow some armies access to a lot of flyers and other armies almost no access to anti-flyer weaponry that the game won't be very balanced.

Also, allowing allies is just like opening up Pandora's Box insofar as balance is concerned. It seems like GW is trying to encourage variety in gameplay, but in actuality, they've encouraged unbalance as people gravitate towards the "power combos". I think we're going to see a step back towards the 2-3rd ed. builds of uber-character armies, only now it will be more uber-combo deathstar armies.

@Jy2

I just don't see the reason not to give it a shot. Here are my thoughts:

1) You had a 66% chance to come in before he did. Which would have given you a shooting phase to have a chance at an instant win.

2) While the odds weren't incredibly in your favor shooting wise they were worth it. Average rolls come out to 1 wounds from stormbolters and around 1 wound for the psycannons. Which means, while it's longer odds, it's possible.

3) By deepstriking that far back you stand an excellent chance of being outside of the firepower arc of the entering vehicles (or then would have to come in at an extreme angle)

For those 3 reasons I would have taken the risk. Add in that it is your most resilient unit and so may have been able survive to shift back. Plus with all those St5-7 shots they would have been in position and out of their transports to start picking on flyers on your opponents turn 2.

Not saying it's a guarentee but it's definitely something to consider. Especially because then they would have also been in position to pick off entire units of warriors that had to come on from reserve when their transports went down.

Just my two cents.

I can't get to him on Turn 1. If I deepstrike, the earliest I can get to him is T2. If I went first on T2 and wiped him out, so what? His flyers then will come in on the bottom of T2. And if he went first on T2, then he should get in 6 flyers on average. By then, who really cares about the lord.

Remember, it's only a loss if there are no models at the end of the Game turn.

BTW, unless I'm right up on his board edge, most likely some of his scythes will be able to get to my unit. And if I am right up at his board edge, then I am making an extremely risky deepstrike.

But more importantly, my strikers will be way out of position to make a play on the relic in the middle.

And all this is assuming they will come in on T2, which is no guarantee.

In short, the payoff is just not worth the risk. Killing his Overlord is a longshot and won't even win me the game even if I was successful (unless, by some miracle, none of his 9 flyers also come in from reserves that turn). And then my strikers will be exposed and extremely out of position relative to the objective....

Definitely sounds like a GW marketing strategy. It was no coincidence that before 6th ed release, Storm Raven price increase by 20% a few months ago. Scratch one for marketing. As people buy more flyers, GW will switch to creating new units to help counter them. Scratch two for marketing.

Ah c'mon Sabre, people predicted this months ago!
Same deal as the "scenary buff"., vehicle nerf, larger squads and psychic powers.

What wasnt selling? buff it
What was over bought/used? Release a new unit/rule list to sell more.
What new angle could sell more kits? (scenery/psychic powers!) .

Old news Im afraid, its got as you said, to do with marketing but also to do with a game system that had become stale as moldy bread.
Razor/FNP/Tank/Alpha strike/MC nerf/skimmer spam/AVXX?! in 5th?

zzzzzzzz Imho.

Mix it up? Yes GW have to be fair
Was marketing part of that mix up?
You bet 100%
Gotta make money!

And some armies have zero acces to these flak missiles. GK for example dont get missile devastators.
Thus what GW is creating is an even worse situation of rock paper scissors then we previously had.

Feels like it falls into the area of "well we've sold enough GK. They don't need much of anything anymore."

Not sure what we can do as GK honestly, besides aegis gun for low numbers of fliers or using allies with flakk.

sudojoe wrote:

And some armies have zero acces to these flak missiles. GK for example dont get missile devastators.
Thus what GW is creating is an even worse situation of rock paper scissors then we previously had.

Feels like it falls into the area of "well we've sold enough GK. They don't need much of anything anymore."

Not sure what we can do as GK honestly, besides aegis gun for low numbers of fliers or using allies with flakk.

Don't under-estimate the GK's. They've still got a damn lot of firepower.

It's just that in this game, I was shooting poorly.

BTW, that vendread was supposed to be a stormraven, but then I forgot to take the model with me. Thus, I subbed in the venerable.

BTW, that vendread was supposed to be a stormraven, but then I forgot to take the model with me. Thus, I subbed in the venerable.

ahh that would have made a big difference I think. What do you recommend for load outs Jy2?

so far I've been recommending AC+HB+hurricane bolters with psybolts as a dedicated anti-air hunter or for shooting infantry.

I've had mine with Lascannons and multi-melta for a long time for the AV13-14 targets back in 5th but I'm thinking of making the switch.

I'd say the AC and MM is a good choice. Add psybolt and hurricane and it gets a little expensive (50pts!) but if you have extra points, then go for it.

One interesting tid-bit to note is that BA Storm Ravens are Heavy Support and Grey Knight Storm Ravens are Fast Attack. That's 4 Storm Ravens under 2000 points! GK Storm Raven's Mindstrike missiles is great for dealing with horde and Psykers. BA Storm Raven's Bloodstrike missiles is good against vehicles and other flyers. On top of that, Storm Ravens can machine spirit, potentially shooting at two Flyers. They are also AV12, so it's harder to glance or pen using Quad Guns or Tesla Destructors.

Being non-dedicated transports, there's no debate that the reserve rules still apply to infantry embark in them. For every unit inside a Storm Raven, there needs to be another unit on the table.

I think the BA/GK Airforce is just as devastating, if not more, compared Necron Airforce. Perhaps one of these days we can have an epic dog fight between both flyer lists.

Yup, it takes a lot of dedicated firepower to take out fliers. I played a shooty GK mech list in 5th, and while I love being able to glance AV14 to death now, shooting fliers is frustratingly hard.

How did the GKs get the relic into the transport by turn two? The troops have to get out to grab it, and then reembark the following turn? Unless I'm missing something?

Grimaldi wrote:How did the GKs get the relic into the transport by turn two? The troops have to get out to grab it, and then reembark the following turn? Unless I'm missing something?

Something seems a little off, anyway.

You CAN do it easily enough - drive forward 6" on turn 1 & disembark 6" to touch the Relic (claiming it at the end of the Movement phase); Turn 2, walk back to your Rhino & embark. We just don't see any of that happening; instead, it looks like the unit picked it up while still inside their transport (a no-no).

Janthkin wrote:

Grimaldi wrote:How did the GKs get the relic into the transport by turn two? The troops have to get out to grab it, and then reembark the following turn? Unless I'm missing something?

Something seems a little off, anyway.

You CAN do it easily enough - drive forward 6" on turn 1 & disembark 6" to touch the Relic (claiming it at the end of the Movement phase); Turn 2, walk back to your Rhino & embark. We just don't see any of that happening; instead, it looks like the unit picked it up while still inside their transport (a no-no).

There seems to be some ambiguity here (or I just may be wrong).

This is my intepretation. It says that the model has to move into base contact with the relic in order to pick it up. However, it doesn't say that the model cannot be embarked in a transport in order to do so. Thus, when you are in the vehicle and the vehicle touches the relic, then all models are considered to be in base and you can assign the relic to any model in the transport. Then afterwards, the transport cannot move more than 6" or it will drop the relic.

jy2 wrote:This is my intepretation. It says that the model has to move into base contact with the relic in order to pick it up. However, it doesn't say that the model cannot be embarked in a transport in order to do so. Thus, when you are in the vehicle and the vehicle touches the relic, then all models are considered to be in base and you can assign the relic to any model in the transport. Then afterwards, the transport cannot move more than 6" or it will drop the relic.

"A model in a scoring unit can seize the Relic by moving into base contact with it." A model inside a Transport will never be in base contact with the Relic - the transport might be, but an embarked model surely isn't.

Add in that "the Relic can only be brought aboard a Transport vehicle if it is carried by a model that can embark upon the Transport," and I think it's pretty clear that you have to get out of your Rhino to pick it up.

Janthkin wrote:

jy2 wrote:This is my intepretation. It says that the model has to move into base contact with the relic in order to pick it up. However, it doesn't say that the model cannot be embarked in a transport in order to do so. Thus, when you are in the vehicle and the vehicle touches the relic, then all models are considered to be in base and you can assign the relic to any model in the transport. Then afterwards, the transport cannot move more than 6" or it will drop the relic.

"A model in a scoring unit can seize the Relic by moving into base contact with it." A model inside a Transport will never be in base contact with the Relic - the transport might be, but an embarked model surely isn't.

Add in that "the Relic can only be brought aboard a Transport vehicle if it is carried by a model that can embark upon the Transport," and I think it's pretty clear that you have to get out of your Rhino to pick it up.

If that's the case, then it was a mistake on my part. I would have played as you suggested, move 6" and then disembark my troops 6" to grab the objective.

Just a small note, only is not in the rule that you quoted.

jy2 wrote:

Janthkin wrote:Add in that "the Relic can only be brought aboard a Transport vehicle if it is carried by a model that can embark upon the Transport," and I think it's pretty clear that you have to get out of your Rhino to pick it up.

If that's the case, then it was a mistake on my part. I would have played as you suggested, move 6" and then disembark my troops 6" to grab the objective.

Just a small note, only is not in the rule that you quoted.

Yes it is. It's part of a typo ("canonly"), but it's there. (2nd paragraph under "Dropping the Relic," of all places.)

But yeah - no game effect here, but something to be aware of.