NSFW!!! Warning, if you don’t like videos with grown men acting immaturely, cursing, talking trash about each other, 40K, Necrons, Matt Ward, Leprechauns, Koni and Barf, DO NOT WATCH THIS VIDEO!! hahaha, you have been warned!
Oh yeah, and this is a really good example of why the Air Force armies will be king until we get more AA units out there!
Yeah, all the recent reports and my own experiences with Flyers and FMC's has me out of anything but friendly games... possibly for good. I love 6th for my home games, campaign, and narrative battles but it's a mess for competitive play. I just substitute beer for milk and basically play all my games like you guys just did...
whoadirty wrote:Oh jeez, I should have waited for the end of the video to comment. I was crying so much. The tag team of the garbage can at the end did me in.
Right?! Hahaha, I was dying! I almost barfed myself!
By far the funniest battle report I have ever seen. Most certainly made it more entertaining to watch than just watching the Necron Air Force decimating everything. The only thing I think I could come up with to counter that with my Orks would be to spam battlewagons with grabba klaws but even then im not sure how well that would wok conisdering how fast they can move.
Hahaha, that would have been classic! But we filmed that on the day we're closed, so thankfully that wasn't possible.
@y0disisray
Lootas I think would be your best bet, like 45 of them! Haha. Either that or horde of Orks and just go for the units not in transports and sit on objectives. Not a lot you can do, honestly.
This is why I don't want to run a pure flyer army. It's only fun if there is some challenge to the game. The pure scythe army is just too strong for most opponents that it isn't really fun.
Probably the only "balanced" builds that will give it any problems is a scoring deathstar unit/army in the Relic mission or 220+ ork boyz in an objectives mission. Nothing else can really handle it without a lot of extreme dice involved.
So....uhm. How.. is that necron army legal? You can only put half your units in reserve. Doesn't this apply to fliers as well? Or do they not count for that?
I can't really see the Necron list that fun. Now, if you are trying for the win, then yes. I've gone against 8 flyers... not the most fun game in my life, in actuality made me want to quit 40k. When AA guns come out, I'm sure this flyer list will be put to shame.
Loved the idea behind the bat rep, made me not want to do it
So Reecius are you going to enforce the milk chugging at Duel Con? I'm gonna be thoroughly disappointed if I have to face one of these lists without a milk chugging reprimand.
OMG BEST B-rep evar. I've been playing against the necron air forces since 6th launch as we've had a guy build it even back in 5th cause he liked pictures (self made models but they are pretty close now that he's got the real ones). This essentially shows like my first few games lol.
Only time I've beaten it is when I took space wolves as an ally (I usually play GK or guard) and dumped 2 drop pods on his lord on turn one and shot him off the table. He now takes some bodyguard wraiths to prevent such a thing.
Otherwise, I've yet to beat it. We only play at 1500 so it's not AS many fliers but it's still pretty bad. His is kind of like JY2's cept he hadn't swapped for a destroyer lord and had a barge lord instead.
OMG!!?!?!? You like to read Bat Reps and not watch them? How could we have been so stupid! We'll get right on that sir, please don't be cross with us for providing free content for you to watch that wasn't exactly what you wanted! I just punched myself in the face, we'll call that a down payment on my punishment.
@deathhlydeath & Unholy Martyr
It is unclear actually, how it should be played. For NOVA they ruled that you could indeed start in reserves with the Flyers. But, I believe that by RAW, you can't do it. You have to have a few units on the ground (which we did, you just may have missed them). But like Unholy Martyr said, it certainly seems to be legal at first read.
@Carnage43 & Oswitz
Yeah, it is a great tournament army, but until we get more AA, won't even be much of a challenge to play it. Literally it's:
1.) Move Forward
2.) Roll Dice
3.) Profit
Not much to it. With more AA, it will be an actual game.
@y0disisray
Hahaha, we're considering it! It is just so stupidly overpowering for now.
@Sudojoe
Thanks! Haha, glad you liked it. And yes, I think that we have to have some means of hitting unit on the table right away or be swept away by Flyers.
The army just isn't fun right now as we don't have enough AA. Once we do, it will still be a crazy army, but at least somewhat manageable.
@Great Deceiver
Hahaha, right?! I am sitting here waiting for the genius of the design to reveal itself to me....
Night Scythes and Doom Scythes are just too cheap, particularly Night Scythes. They should be a good 30-50 points more than they are.
OMG!!?!?!? You like to read Bat Reps and not watch them? How could we have been so stupid! We'll get right on that sir, please don't be cross with us for providing free content for you to watch that wasn't exactly what you wanted! I just punched myself in the face, we'll call that a down payment on my punishment.
You misunderstood my post. I was asking if you could post a written report, not just a link to the video. As in both. You didnt have to be an dick.
Its not like you have to put much effort into it either. A summary of the turns, a few pictures, and your comentary. Bam your done.
OMG!!?!?!? You like to read Bat Reps and not watch them? How could we have been so stupid! We'll get right on that sir, please don't be cross with us for providing free content for you to watch that wasn't exactly what you wanted! I just punched myself in the face, we'll call that a down payment on my punishment.
You misunderstood my post. I was asking if you could post a written report, not just a link to the video. As in both. You didnt have to be an dick.
Its not like you have to put much effort into it either. A summary of the turns, a few pictures, and your comentary. Bam your done.
Not like there was much to the battle
Necrons roll on.
Kill everything.
Bam, you're done.
If there had been an actually battle to report maybe he would have taken the time, but frankly, taking an hour or 2 to type up "Space Wolf player got roll hard, here's how" would have been a waste.
OMG!!?!?!? You like to read Bat Reps and not watch them? How could we have been so stupid! We'll get right on that sir, please don't be cross with us for providing free content for you to watch that wasn't exactly what you wanted! I just punched myself in the face, we'll call that a down payment on my punishment.
You misunderstood my post. I was asking if you could post a written report, not just a link to the video. As in both. You didnt have to be an dick.
Its not like you have to put much effort into it either. A summary of the turns, a few pictures, and your comentary. Bam your done.
Not like there was much to the battle
Necrons roll on.
Kill everything.
Bam, you're done.
If there had been an actually battle to report maybe he would have taken the time, but frankly, taking an hour or 2 to type up "Space Wolf player got roll hard, here's how" would have been a waste.
Except all the video was is him taking a video shot after every player term. Just as easy to snap a picture and say a few things about what happened. Granted you wouldn't get the humor of the video.
OMG!!?!?!? You like to read Bat Reps and not watch them? How could we have been so stupid! We'll get right on that sir, please don't be cross with us for providing free content for you to watch that wasn't exactly what you wanted! I just punched myself in the face, we'll call that a down payment on my punishment.
You misunderstood my post. I was asking if you could post a written report, not just a link to the video. As in both. You didnt have to be an dick.
Its not like you have to put much effort into it either. A summary of the turns, a few pictures, and your comentary. Bam your done.
Just to add a different perspective. Reece and company runs a business for a living. And to run it properly, they need to put out a lot of content. And I mean their own blog, posting in various forums like dakkadakka, BOLS and probably others. This include perhaps 3-6 battle reports and a lot of articles each week as well as checking and responding to those articles periodically.
And to publish a good written battle report, with plenty of pictures, takes time. My more detailed battle reports take from 4-6 hours, while the shorter ones probably take 1.5-3 hrs (though if you don't really care about the quality of the reports, it can take substantially less time than that). With that said, videoreps are probably the most efficient way of publishing battle reports that can produce quality content in minimal time. And when you are running a business, you have to do things as efficiently as possible.
So except for rare occassions, I think you will only see videoreps for the majority of their battle reps. Doing any more will just take up too much time from his ability to produce other articles and such. (Or maybe he's just too hungover to do it ).
OMG!!?!?!? You like to read Bat Reps and not watch them? How could we have been so stupid! We'll get right on that sir, please don't be cross with us for providing free content for you to watch that wasn't exactly what you wanted! I just punched myself in the face, we'll call that a down payment on my punishment.
You misunderstood my post. I was asking if you could post a written report, not just a link to the video. As in both. You didnt have to be an dick.
Its not like you have to put much effort into it either. A summary of the turns, a few pictures, and your comentary. Bam your done.
Just to add a different perspective. Reece and company runs a business for a living. And to run it properly, they need to put out a lot of content. And I mean their own blog, posting in various forums like dakkadakka, BOLS and probably others. This include perhaps 3-6 battle reports and a lot of articles each week as well as checking and responding to those articles periodically.
And to publish a good written battle report, with plenty of pictures, takes time. My more detailed battle reports take from 4-6 hours, while the shorter ones probably take 1.5-3 hrs (though if you don't really care about the quality of the reports, it can take substantially less time than that). With that said, videoreps are probably the most efficient way of publishing battle reports that can produce quality content in minimal time. And when you are running a business, you have to do things as efficiently as possible.
So except for rare occassions, I think you will only see videoreps for the majority of their battle reps. Doing any more will just take up too much time from his ability to produce other articles and such. (Or maybe he's just too hungover to do it ).
Then maybe he could have said that instead of being a dick. Maybe said something like " Hey OBC sorry you didn't enjoy the video report. As you may know i run a business and simply don't have the time to make written reports. Which is why I do video reports because they save me time." It's more professional. Which is something I'd expect someone who runs a business to be, a professional.
I think folks are planning on facing lists like this at NOVA. It has a few weeknesses, and some armies cant even capitalize on them.
Another flying list can choose to go second. When all those fliers show up, your opponent can move on with thier flyers and shoot many of them down.
Land Raider heavy army does not have much to fear. Now the fliers dont really have much to fear either, but 3 Land Raiders parked on Objectives will make it tough to win with this list. If the warriors get out to try glancing the Land Raiders, they risk being destroyed.
Drop Pod heavy armies/ deamons, can drop aggressive, especially if going first. Top of 2, if they kill off the Necrons the game is over.
Just rying to give some hope to folks afraid to face this list.
Norbu the Destroyer wrote:I think folks are planning on facing lists like this at NOVA. It has a few weeknesses, and some armies cant even capitalize on them.
Another flying list can choose to go second. When all those fliers show up, your opponent can move on with thier flyers and shoot many of them down.
Land Raider heavy army does not have much to fear. Now the fliers dont really have much to fear either, but 3 Land Raiders parked on Objectives will make it tough to win with this list. If the warriors get out to try glancing the Land Raiders, they risk being destroyed.
Land raiders? Against 3 doom scythes? For 4+ turns? I don't think the LR's stand a chance.
What you need is either massed shooting to take them down or enough bodies to weather their shooting.
Drop Pod heavy armies/ deamons, can drop aggressive, especially if going first. Top of 2, if they kill off the Necrons the game is over.
Just rying to give some hope to folks afraid to face this list.
A good necron player should design his so that he can weather and survive the shooting from his opponent's first turn. That is what will separate a good general running this army compared to a mediocre one.
And btw, even if you do wipe them off the board on the Top of 2, their flyers can still come in on the bottom of the turn. They have to be board wiped at the end of the game turn.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So, would it be possibel to post actual BATREPS? Not just video of the Battle. I like to read BATREPS over watching them.
Dude, reread what you wrote and how you wrote it. You were being a dick, and I responded with equal dickishness!
And why should I be required to take the high ground all the time when you didn't? Why should I apologize to you for not liking what we made? You offered no meaningful critique beyond expressing what you wanted as if that were sacrosanct.
As Jy2 pointed out, we have to put out a staggering amount of content on multiple platforms and then talk to people and we get a lot of folks like you who feel entitled to something they didn't pay anything for. I have always taken the high road, been conciliatory and nice, but in the past week I've just about had enough. You were just one more mean/critical voice in a sea of them and I responded with sarcasm.
If you don't like video bat reps, don't watch them.
If you like written bat reps, write some. Stop complaining about what other people provide for you to watch if you aren't willing to take any action yourself.
If you do produce some nice, written bat reps, sweet, then we can talk as peers, and if anything I'll thank you for taking the time out of your day to do so. Otherwise you're just a negative Nancy that is poo pooing on what we did. And before you get huffy with me, again, reread what you wrote. You sounded like a petulant child that wasn't getting your way.
@Norbu
Yeah, like Jy2 said, LRs will get owned by Doom Scythes. They have one of the best weapons in the game for taking them down.
Drop pods and such are your best bet for taking down this army Turn 1, and it is a lot easier said than done. We knew from the moment we read the Flyer rules that this would be a crazy army, but after actually playing it, wow, it is so dominating that it isn't even fun. At all.
Matt Ward strikes again!!!! Daemons in Fantasy just weren't enough, he had to top that performance.
I hope in a few months it is balanced out with AA, but still, this army is going to make people irate.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:So, would it be possibel to post actual BATREPS? Not just video of the Battle. I like to read BATREPS over watching them.
Dude, reread what you wrote and how you wrote it. You were being a dick, and I responded with equal dickishness!
And why should I be required to take the high ground all the time when you didn't? Why should I apologize to you for not liking what we made? You offered no meaningful critique beyond expressing what you wanted as if that were sacrosanct.
As Jy2 pointed out, we have to put out a staggering amount of content on multiple platforms and then talk to people and we get a lot of folks like you who feel entitled to something they didn't pay anything for. I have always taken the high road, been conciliatory and nice, but in the past week I've just about had enough. You were just one more mean/critical voice in a sea of them and I responded with sarcasm.
If you don't like video bat reps, don't watch them.
If you like written bat reps, write some. Stop complaining about what other people provide for you to watch if you aren't willing to take any action yourself.
If you do produce some nice, written bat reps, sweet, then we can talk as peers, and if anything I'll thank you for taking the time out of your day to do so. Otherwise you're just a negative Nancy that is poo pooing on what we did. And before you get huffy with me, again, reread what you wrote. You sounded like a petulant child that wasn't getting your way.
1. "So, would it be possibel to post actual BATREPS? Not just video of the Battle." Seems like I'm asking if you could post actual battle reports. "I like to read BATREPS over watching them." Here i stated why I was asking for written batreps. No where was I a dick. Perhaps you seeing yourself in the post. 2. "we get a lot of folks like you who feel entitled to something they didn't pay anything for." No where did I say I was entitled. I didn't say "REECIUS GO MAKE ME WRITTEN REPORTS! NOW I"M ENTITLED TO THEM! I asked a question. To which you where a dick in responding to. 3. Even if you thought I was a dick, you run a business, you should be more professional. Now since you where immature and a dick to a simple question I'm going to assume your the same way to customers. 4. "Otherwise you're just a negative Nancy that is poo pooing on what we did." Please explain how asking if it was possible for you to make a written batrep is being a negative Nancy? I'd like to understand your reasoning here. No where did I state that I disliked your video reports. I just stated a preference for the written over a video.
Reecius I wouldn't even bother debating over this as there is really no reason for you to bend over backwards for the one percentile of the forum who wants to read your batreps instead of watching them which is your preference. Especially since you go completely out of your way to provide information for FREE. I personally, and im sure I speak for the majority of the forums, enjoy your expedited battle reports because not only do you do it quickly but you get a lot of information thrown in about the main actions each turn. Keep doing what youre doing!
y0disisray wrote:Reecius I wouldn't even bother debating over this as there is really no reason for you to bend over backwards for the one percentile of the forum who wants to read your batreps instead of watching them which is your preference. Especially since you go completely out of your way to provide information for FREE. I personally, and im sure I speak for the majority of the forums, enjoy your expedited battle reports because not only do you do it quickly but you get a lot of information thrown in about the main actions each turn. Keep doing what youre doing!
How is asking if its possible to get a written battle report me expecting Reecius to bend over backwards? I didn't demand it, I asked a question and told why I wanted it. All Reecuis had to say was. "Sorry but due to time constrains we can't make written batreps." And I would have said "Okay I understand." Instead he goes the immature dick way.
It isn't worth fighting over. If I misunderstood what you were saying, then that's my bad. We do things the way we do them, but we do listen to criticism as it helps us improve. You came across as flippant and petulant. Going forward you may want to put more effort into explaining what you mean at the onset and things like this could be avoided.
Honestly though, make a written battle report. It takes a lot of time and energy as Jy2 pointed out. You may not be so casual in your requests if you try and produce quality content and then face all the critics who think it's easy or put down what you've done.
@y0disisray
Thanks! We do try and get a ton of info out fast so that people can learn what to expect.
We try and put enough information in to be informative, but not drag them out. Some folks like them quick and dirty, some like them longer and in depth. We try and strike a happy medium.
1. "So, would it be possibel to post actual BATREPS? Not just video of the Battle." Seems like I'm asking if you could post actual battle reports. "I like to read BATREPS over watching them." Here i stated why I was asking for written batreps. No where was I a dick. Perhaps you seeing yourself in the post. 2. "we get a lot of folks like you who feel entitled to something they didn't pay anything for." No where did I say I was entitled. I didn't say "REECIUS GO MAKE ME WRITTEN REPORTS! NOW I"M ENTITLED TO THEM! I asked a question. To which you where a dick in responding to. 3. Even if you thought I was a dick, you run a business, you should be more professional. Now since you where immature and a dick to a simple question I'm going to assume your the same way to customers. 4. "Otherwise you're just a negative Nancy that is poo pooing on what we did." Please explain how asking if it was possible for you to make a written batrep is being a negative Nancy? I'd like to understand your reasoning here. No where did I state that I disliked your video reports. I just stated a preference for the written over a video.
Honestly I got the same impression from your post that Reecius did. Reecius provides us with endless entertainment and valuable 40k information for free, and your very first post is a very poorly worded request and nothing else.
At least have the decency to ask politely.
Anyways Reecius, ignore that guy. I'm sure I speak for the rest of us when I say we appreciate all your BATREPS (Video or not) and articles and hope to see much more.
As for the video, I laughed so hard near the end. It was literally a scene out of family guy.
It isn't worth fighting over. If I misunderstood what you were saying, then that's my bad. We do things the way we do them, but we do listen to criticism as it helps us improve. You came across as flippant and petulant. Going forward you may want to put more effort into explaining what you mean at the onset and things like this could be avoided.
Honestly though, make a written battle report. It takes a lot of time and energy as Jy2 pointed out. You may not be so casual in your requests if you try and produce quality content and then face all the critics who think it's easy or put down what you've done.
@y0disisray
Thanks! We do try and get a ton of info out fast so that people can learn what to expect.
We try and put enough information in to be informative, but not drag them out. Some folks like them quick and dirty, some like them longer and in depth. We try and strike a happy medium.
Alright, then lets drop it. I do enjoy your video reports, they're fun and informational.
Thank you very much! Family Guy is genius, so that is funny as hell. Honestly though, I have to give credit for the Milk Part to Frankie and Keno, it was their idea! I actually doubted it would be funny but I was nearly pissing myself at the end I was laughing so hard!
@OBC
Fair enough, and sorry if I offended you. It's been a pretty hectic and stressful week for us.
Reecius wrote:We knew from the moment we read the Flyer rules that this would be a crazy army, but after actually playing it, wow, it is so dominating that it isn't even fun. At all.
Matt Ward strikes again!!!! Daemons in Fantasy just weren't enough, he had to top that performance.
I hope in a few months it is balanced out with AA, but still, this army is going to make people irate.
As a frequent TO, is this something that you think merits action? For example, if we don't see widely available AA soon, would you think it reasonable for TOs to put a hard cap on the number of flyers an army could take?
I'd be interested to see a battle report between two flyer heavy armies. The current assumption is that the guy who goes second just destroys player 1's flyers and autowins after that. It'd be interesting to test out. What's a better way to phrase that... MOAR BATREPS! Make the BATREPS I want NOW!!
I think the cron list will have a hard time against an IG Vendetta heavy list. If the IG should take out the Doom rays, then all they have to worry about are S7 guns. While on the other hand, the Crons have to deal with S9 lascannons. However thats the only list I can think of thats going to be an interesting Flier v Flier.
Anyway, Nice Batrep, definitely didn't deserve too much effort as it was Necrons Kill/ Wolves miss the whole game. I stopped watching when the spue started flying though.
Reec, anyone ever tell you you sound like Badger from Breaking Bad?
Someone should take one of those 9 or so hydra lists (if they actually stand a chance against these necron ones) to a tournie as a 'spoiler' game, so people who have necron airforces won't go 4-0 or however many games there are. Sure, you'll lose nearly every other game, but it'll be fun to know you are crushing others dreams. Or is that just me?
I don't think people realize how resilient Necron flyers really are. Some AA units on the ground just won't cut it. Chaos space marines are supposed to get Flak missiles with the Havocs. That's great. The flyers will still get the alpha strike on the Havocs and wipe them out.
In 6e volume of fire, and melta, does a good job of killing vehicles. AA weapons have neither rightnow. (except the expensive Dark Reapers Exarch with fast shot manning an Icarus. He has about a 44% chnace of downing the Necron flyer.) Only flyers can reasonably take out other flyers. Even the precious Quad Gun, firing with BS 5, only puts out 1.5 glances + pens on a flyer when it shoots. The Pen roll has about a 10% chance of stopping the flyer from firing it's main weapon. These odds scream that AA DOES NOT WORK.
Like I said any AA units will be targeted on the initial alpha strike and neutered. I think most people's experience with flyers has been a Storm-something or two. Not a dedicated Necron Flyer list.
6 Necron flyers, 4 Nightscythes and 2 Doomscythes, will dish out 24 wounds a turn to a Havoc squad from Tesla and 5-6 Deathray wounds. That is more than enough to kill 11 Havocs in 4+ cover before they can shoot their Flak Missiles. But let's say the other 10 man Havoc squad then fires. 4 Flak missiles have about a 30 % chance of shooting down the Necron Flyer or removing its only gun. This drops to 19% with a Doomscythe since it has 2 guns. Not great odds.
The only answer for Necron flyers is flyers of your own. You need about half as many flyers as your opponent and go second to have a reasonable chance of eliminating them. Dedicated Necron Flyer lists know this and try to limit the effect of going second by bringing an Aegis Defense Line with Relay Comms to help better control their reserve rolls for better or for worse.
In practice I have also found their is a way to help limit the damage 5-6+ flyers can do over time. If you can get 12" or closer to the flyers board edge (easier for vanguard deployment) it will be hard for flyers to get continuos shooting each turn. Of course dedicated Necron flyers should learn this and take units to deal with it, like lots of Wratihs. If you bum rush the Necron deployment zone, then you will meet up with the Wraiths before you can weaken them with shooting. Thisis why I am so impressed with the synergy of JY2's Necron army list. Both the Wraiths and Necron Flyers feed off each others disadvantages. It is a more powerful list than either all Necron flyers or all Wraiths.
Well said Darth, I agree on almost all of your points.
Also what exactly did the necron player deploy/what was his full army list?
Obviously 3 DS, 7 NS, 1 deathmark squad, but what was more so deployed and does he think he can survive 1st turn alpha strikes from pod armies/daemon armies.
You are forgetting one major equation in those remarks however Darth and that is the Interceptor special rule. When fliers come in these models get to target and fire at fliers at the end of the player's movement phase. These means it is before the flier gets to fire or move flat out. If they Evade it'll stifle their shots in the shooting phase and still only provide a 5+ jink. In the case of Death Ray they won't even get to fire if the Doom Scythe jinks.
Granted right now there isn't really squat with the interceptor rule for the most part outside of Quad/Icarus. However that doesn't mean that near future releases won't.
Also something to note in regards to the deathray is its line of site. I was having an interesting conversation in YMDC and don't forget that models that are 'out of site' pg16 BRB are ignored when resolving hits. So sure you can place that line anywhere within 12" do to poor wording but that hull mounted 45 limits what can be resolved as a hit do to LoS.
Some great conversation here! Lots of good points.
@Amerikon
It is something to consider, for sure. We are actually opposed to banning any legal armies or lists on a philosophical basis (we are Team Zero Comp, after all!) but I think you are not off the mark suggesting that. I know a lot of the other TOs around the country have talked about it, too. We're going to keep thinking about ways to make tournament missions that level the playing field and anti-flyer tactics instead of an outright ban if we can at all help it.
I will say though, without hesitation, that army is the most OP army I have ever seen in this game in any edition.
@OBC
The only problem with the Vendetta army is that they can only shoot 3 units a turn as they are squadroned up. That means they are less efficient. Not a major set back by any means, but I think that puts them a tier under Cron Air.
@SlaveToDorkness & Skelly
Haha, I do! Never thought about that before. I have a really distinct voice though, sounds like I'm always hoarse.
@Ratius
Those guys had to throw their own barf out! hahaha
@DarthDiggler
You said it. Those AV11 Flyers with 3 HP are brutal! They are not easy to kill at all, and a lot of folks who say: why don't have a quad gin? as if that fixes it quite simply haven't played against this yet.
I think board control and movement will be your best bet until we get more Interceptor/Skyfire units in the game. That is actually one of the main reasons we pushed for the inclusion of FW units in tournament play this year as they bring a LOT of interceptor/skyfire armies to the table. This gives at least a fighting chance against Cron Air.
Reecius wrote:You said it. Those AV11 Flyers with 3 HP are brutal! They are not easy to kill at all, and a lot of folks who say: why don't have a quad gin? as if that fixes it quite simply haven't played against this yet.
It would be because I'm going to need that quad gin after a game against CronAir.
Best line in the video:
Reece: So Frankie, how was it playing against the Necron Air Force?
Reecius - I agree that the current best counters to flyers is sitting in the Forgeworld army books. I don't know them all, but I have a Contemptor with two assault cannons that has skydive if it sits still for a turn. That would help.
BlueDagger - I didn't forget about interceptor. The Intercepting Quad gun only has a 30% chance to stop the Nightscythe from firing. That's just one Nightscythe. The Necrons will have 4-5 more flyers and a strong ground presence also. You have one 30% chance to stop one flyer before the others destroy the quad gun or the unit manning it. That Quad Gun is not firing next turn even if it survives.
No the current interceptor weapons are not enough to put a dent in flyer lists. Flyer lists are not 1-2 flyers. They are 4+ flyers with the best having 5-6 at 1850-2000pts.
I was really hoping some non descript units would have been given the ability to take on flyers. Like Swooping Hawks or Vespid Stingwings. Stuff like that which would have helped expand the viability of some units.
That's why I said there is next to no Interceptors right now, but when they do become more prevalent it'll drastically matter.
Btw that 30% estimate is a bit off.
BS4 with a Quad gun is per shot 44.44% chance to cause dmg (14.81% glance, 29.63% pen) and 11.11% chance per shot to stop the gun.
Not fantastic odds I know, but you have pretty decent chance to down the flier or stop its gun. If they Evade they get a 5+, but snap fire during their shooting phase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here is depressing odds for you...
322pts
Farseer w/ Guide, Runes of Ward
2 Reapers + exarch w/ fast shot, EML Aegis w/ Icarcus Lascannon
Per shot percentages with this 2 shot twin linked, 96" range, BS5, Interceptor/Skyfire, S9 AP2 gun (pen, glance, and to stop % factor in the to hit)
97.22% to hit
16.20% Glance
64.81% Pen
32.41% to stop the flier from firing
For 322pts that is incredibly bad and that doesn’t even take into account if you Evade.
Quad Gin! Hahaha, that was a good one, must have been a Freudian slip!
@Darth
Yeah, the Mortis is awesome against Flyers. I think he is much more versatile than the Aegis/Quad Gun personally. With twin Keres, he is good against everything.
@Blue Dagger
I agree that when we have multiple units with Interceptor and Skyfire, it will make a significant difference. We'll see less Flyer dependent armies as folks will worry about getting that one bad match-up.
I have been toying around with what I think will be a real "Take All Comers" Marine list, and I include a Dread in a pod with twin H.Flamer and H.Flamer for just that reason. He can pop one of those units on the table with ease.
Barrage weapons will help a ton, too.
But a fully podding army will take a crap right on a full blown flyer list. They should take it out turn 1. The Flyer player would have to deploy most or all of his troops unit on the table in order to avoid getting tabled turn 1.
That is why I think ultimately we'll see more lists like Jy2's, which are well balanced and not so one dimensional.
Dreadknights are the business in 6th! Great unit, and yeah, I think that would be an excellent solution. The thing is, typically there will be 2-3 units on the table with a full blown flyer list, and you need to be able to smoke them all turn 1.
I'm taking a Whirlwind, the Dread, and a Libby with Gate to give me potentially 3 units that can reach damn near anywhere on the board and with a little luck, take the units out right away.
It isn't foolproof of course, but it can work and it will make the other guy sweat!
Another treat I've tossed into my list is a Coteaz/Chimera unit for shiggles. Basically, with how many fliers there will be and due to movement constraints, I may be able to tag 1-2 with "I've Been Expecting You" and the 3 Plasma Guns I have in there may get some work done.
Unholy_Martyr wrote:Another treat I've tossed into my list is a Coteaz/Chimera unit for shiggles. Basically, with how many fliers there will be and due to movement constraints, I may be able to tag 1-2 with "I've Been Expecting You" and the 3 Plasma Guns I have in there may get some work done.
Hmmmm... The flyers enter the board from reserves at the board edge and that is where you have to be I order to shoot them with Coteaz, not where they end their movement after coming in from reserve.
Are you sure that's how it is played, by my understanding, if the unit ends up 12" away from coteaz after moving on from reserve, you can resolve the shots against them.
Unholy_Martyr wrote:Are you sure that's how it is played, by my understanding, if the unit ends up 12" away from coteaz after moving on from reserve, you can resolve the shots against them.
Coteaz rule is a confusing one and one I am trying to get a ruling on for NOVA. By my understanding since Fliers MUST zoom when they are coming on from reserves, you can shoot them if that movement causes them to end up within 12" of Coteaz. If you have a large enough army footprint you can spread out and corral the fliers into Coteaz's zone, assuming its ruled you can do so. I think this could cause major headaches for Flier lists, its worked out a bit when I have gotten the chance to use it. This is my TACGK/SW list that I think can handle most flier lists:
Coteaz 100
Rune Priest Jaws/Living Lightning 100
5 WG 4 Combi-melta, 1 TDA w/ Cyclone 155
10 Purifier Squad 4 Psycannon, 2 Hammer, Razorback w/ Psybolts, SL 341
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
5 Grey Hunters Melta, Rhino 115
10 Strikes 2 Psycannon, 1 Razorback w/ Psybolts 270
5 Strikes 1 Psycannon, 1 Razorback w/ Psybolts, SL 161
5 Purgation Squad 2 Psycannon, 2 Incinerator, Razorback w/ Psybolts 190
5 Long Fangs 4 Missiles 115
Aegis Defence Line Quadgun 100
1992
The big footprint is one of the big advantages. It has over 60 infantry and 8 vehicles with which to spread out. Coteaz and 10 Purifiers sit in the middle. If you measure it out right depending on the deployment you can place Coteaz right in the middle of the zooming movement (18 inch spread on movement, so put coteaz in around 27" up from where they come in and you will be able to hit them whether or not they go 18 or the full 36).
Unholy_Martyr wrote:Another treat I've tossed into my list is a Coteaz/Chimera unit for shiggles. Basically, with how many fliers there will be and due to movement constraints, I may be able to tag 1-2 with "I've Been Expecting You" and the 3 Plasma Guns I have in there may get some work done.
BTW, you cannot be inside a transport to use this ability. Firepoints only let you draw LOS for shooting attacks, not for other special rules like trying to "spot" the target with I've Been Expecting You.
AlexHolker wrote:An interesting experiment. I'd be curious to see the Necron Air Force pitted against its worst land-bound matchup (9*Hydras?), for science.
Not even a concern. Flyers will get the alpha strike and cripple those hydras. Just 1 doom scythe alone can potentially wipe out 3 hydras with its deathray.
More importantly, the necron air force is a balanced powerful build that will work against any army (in other words, it is a really good Take All Comers list). A 9-hydra guard build is a tailored build which will fail against most of the other competitive tournament builds.
As far as flyer builds, there is nothing even remotely close to the Necron Air Force right now. Even IG vendetta-spam won't hold a candle to it, even if you take a double-FOC 6-vendetta build.
AlexHolker wrote:An interesting experiment. I'd be curious to see the Necron Air Force pitted against its worst land-bound matchup (9*Hydras?), for science.
Not even a concern. Flyers will get the alpha strike and cripple those hydras. Just 1 doom scythe alone can potentially wipe out 3 hydras with its deathray.
More importantly, the necron air force is a balanced powerful build that will work against any army (in other words, it is a really good Take All Comers list). A 9-hydra guard build is a tailored build which will fail against most of the other competitive tournament builds.
I am aware of that. Consider it a hypothetical: if the metagame degenerated to the point where Necron Air Forces ruled the Earth, could a rogue list designed specifically to compete in that environment actually come out on top?
A drop pod heavy list could prob give it issues for the simple fact of dropping in and trying to kill off what is one the board turn 1. However against necrons that is easier said then done.
Ratius wrote:Do you guys see any build currently that can compete with Cronflyers?
Go nuts if you have too, Im interested in the possibilities more than anything else.
One of those Coteaz henchmen lists with psybacks, rifleman dreads and an allied force of 2 Nightscythes and a Doomscythe. Maybe a list with 2 Stormravens and a Stormtalon. The Stormravens can use power of the machine spirit to twin-link multi melta one flyer and twin-link lascannon another. Of course if your flyers are on the table first you are dead.
Now I still think the GK's will be the underdog, but I think they have a decent chance.
Another army I think Cron Air will have trouble against is the Green Tide:
Big Mek - KFF Warboss
3 squads of Lootas
6x30 ork boyz
3x Dakkajets
Honestly, I don't know how many points this is, but I think the flyers will have problems against them.
AlexHolker wrote:
jy2 wrote:
AlexHolker wrote:An interesting experiment. I'd be curious to see the Necron Air Force pitted against its worst land-bound matchup (9*Hydras?), for science.
Not even a concern. Flyers will get the alpha strike and cripple those hydras. Just 1 doom scythe alone can potentially wipe out 3 hydras with its deathray.
More importantly, the necron air force is a balanced powerful build that will work against any army (in other words, it is a really good Take All Comers list). A 9-hydra guard build is a tailored build which will fail against most of the other competitive tournament builds.
I am aware of that. Consider it a hypothetical: if the metagame degenerated to the point where Necron Air Forces ruled the Earth, could a rogue list designed specifically to compete in that environment actually come out on top?
I don't believe in tailored lists.
However, if I had to tailor a list against Cron Air, it would be a combination of GK's w/IG allies. This is assuming no Forgeworld
I'm honestly wondering how well a Tau gunline would do. 6x 12 firewarriors w/ Shas'ui a markerlight + an Ethereal bomb to get preffered enemy across everything.
72-144 S5 TL shots comes out to 4-8 glances :/ though with the volume of bodies they may be hard for airforce to kill off.
Not sure if this has been debated or not, but can a markerlight increase the BS of a snapfire?
Would you drop those Rhinos in that Crowe list JY?
You're most likely going to be at a manouevering disadvantage anyway, they provide scant protection VS the Flyers and could even hinder your own forces (with wrecks and exploding possible killing off the odd guy or two). Plus potentially 5 VPs conceded.
Would a foot gunline sort of work better, saving 175 points on the Rhinos for other units/upgrades?
Perhaps a few aegis lines and setup "mini bunkers" for the footsloggers? Aegis lines have quad support right too?
Could you guys also post the Cron list here in terms of the army build, wanna run a fun little thread for it.
When the codex came out there were several of us talking about how nasty this would be in 5th, and then 6th came out and just took it over the top (I think I pm'd back and forth with jy2 about it a bit). I don't think it's a particularly cheesy army (no more than any other spam army), it's just that the tools designed to balance it just aren't in the game yet...but they are coming. Skyfire is not that scary for it, and interceptor is not either - if available in decent quantities on the right tools, it will nicely balance the force...but when you start seeing units showing up in force with both rules and decent range, that will be the death knell of Cron Air.
Personally, while I still run 6 scythes, it's a much more diversified force that eliminates any real possibility of getting wiped on turn one, and is a lot more fun to play (and probably play against.)
EDIT: and yeah, foot slogging lists tend to be tougher to deal with for mass scythes, but the crons will still pretty much have control of the game.
Cron Air is top dog right now, IMO. Not much can compete with it.
I think a mix of AA, the ability to hit the units on the board, board control and movement are really the only things you have to counter them with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sencho wrote:The Gallon Challenge and 40k together at last! This could be the next hot format for the hobby! You guys are crazy.
Yes. I think that is probably true! hahaha
@Ratius
We're messing around with some options now, but it is a tough task to do and still be good against other units as well.
@Space Pup
Simple list.
Imotekh
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
Deathmarks x 5 with Night Scythe
Deathmarks x 5 with Night Scythe
SpacePup1987 wrote:May I ask what the list is?
I fear people will bring it to my local hobby shop next week for the tourney .
I wouldn't get overly concerned right away as this is a considerable amount of money to drop on an army that has a good chance of becoming obsolete in 6 months to a year. Hybrid armies, or something like what jy2 is running in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/466541.page are probably far more likely. Of course there are plenty of people out there that wouldn't think twice about dropping $350-450 just so they can win, regardless of if there is any fun involved, but I think that they are in the minority.
Reecius wrote:Cron Air is top dog right now, IMO. Not much can compete with it.
I think a mix of AA, the ability to hit the units on the board, board control and movement are really the only things you have to counter them with.
I agree. Once good AA units become more common, the main strength of this army will start falling apart.
BlueDagger wrote:I'm honestly wondering how well a Tau gunline would do. 6x 12 firewarriors w/ Shas'ui a markerlight + an Ethereal bomb to get preffered enemy across everything.
72-144 S5 TL shots comes out to 4-8 glances :/ though with the volume of bodies they may be hard for airforce to kill off.
Not sure if this has been debated or not, but can a markerlight increase the BS of a snapfire?
IMO, that list wouldn't do very well.
The "ethereal bomb" is a one-trick pony that any experienced general will know to ignore until they are perhaps one of the last targets around. And even with 144 shots, it is at most 4-6 glances. Keep in mind that PE only lets you re-roll 1's and not the entire miss.
Meanwhile, the flyers will wipe out possibly 2+ units per turn and now you are at the point of diminishing returns.
Markerlights can increase your BS, but you still fire at BS1 no matter how much it increases it by. Fixed numbers take precedence over addition and multiplication. Thus, markerlight will increase your BS but when you fire snapshots, you are then reduced to BS1.
If I had to make a balanced Tau army that has a chance to take on the scythe-crons, I would do a combo Tau/Ork army. It would look roughly like this (don't have my codices with me so not sure on points).
(If this is over 2K, then drop the lootas or perhaps the pathfinders.)
Ratius wrote:Would you drop those Rhinos in that Crowe list JY?
You're most likely going to be at a manouevering disadvantage anyway, they provide scant protection VS the Flyers and could even hinder your own forces (with wrecks and exploding possible killing off the odd guy or two). Plus potentially 5 VPs conceded.
Would a foot gunline sort of work better, saving 175 points on the Rhinos for other units/upgrades?
Perhaps a few aegis lines and setup "mini bunkers" for the footsloggers? Aegis lines have quad support right too?
Could you guys also post the Cron list here in terms of the army build, wanna run a fun little thread for it.
I feel so naked without them.
If those purifiers were cheaper, I would consider it. But the fact is that they are so darn expensive that you have to protect your investment. Because without them, those purifiers will die even faster!
But mainly, I need them for mobility purposes. Many people still do not realize how important the Movement phase is. If you don't have mobility, you are at a disadvantage every single time you play an objectives-based mission. Sure, vehicle rules have been nerfed slightly, but there are some "perks" such as you can still fire even when moving at cruising speed, shaken or stunned. Moreover, now glancing your vehicle does not stop it from functioning unless you glance it to death.
If I run strikers or terminators, then I wouldn't mind running them on foot. However, with purifiers, I still think mechanized is the best way to run them.
The marker lights at least can reduce the jink save if any he chooses to make so it'll do some good at least. Personally having guide or divination powers from eldar allies will help Tau alot more than the etheral bomb. Friend of mine does very well with tau + eldar with insane mobility during his assault phase using jetbikes and jump suits. Very annoying to fight with any LOS terrain and lacking barrage weapons.
I'm personally really hoping that the next DA release will have cyclone missle launchers get flakk
Bunch of terminators in 4+ ruins (possibly bolstered to 3+) will be hard to knock out by just air forces. It'll really then just come down to volume.
Maelstrom808 wrote:When the codex came out there were several of us talking about how nasty this would be in 5th, and then 6th came out and just took it over the top (I think I pm'd back and forth with jy2 about it a bit). I don't think it's a particularly cheesy army (no more than any other spam army), it's just that the tools designed to balance it just aren't in the game yet...but they are coming. Skyfire is not that scary for it, and interceptor is not either - if available in decent quantities on the right tools, it will nicely balance the force...but when you start seeing units showing up in force with both rules and decent range, that will be the death knell of Cron Air.
Personally, while I still run 6 scythes, it's a much more diversified force that eliminates any real possibility of getting wiped on turn one, and is a lot more fun to play (and probably play against.)
EDIT: and yeah, foot slogging lists tend to be tougher to deal with for mass scythes, but the crons will still pretty much have control of the game.
Yeah, looking back now at the list you sent to me, it is much, much scarier now than it was back then.
Going forward, newer armies and units will be equipped with better tools to deal with flyer armies. However, in no ways will this be the "death knell" of Cron Air, not by a long shot. Flyers are here to stay for good and they will still be a strong and very competitive army. They just won't be as fearsome then as they are right now, but you will still have trouble beating them with a Take All Comers (TAC) list that is not more customized to fight flyers.
The only way to take away their control of the game is to flood the board with bodies in order to limit their movement. That's why I think horde armies (and especially fearless horde armies without single-point-of-failure units like tervigons) can still do alright against flyer armies despite their inability to really shoot them down.
jy2 wrote:Yeah, looking back now at the list you sent to me, it is much, much scarier now than it was back then.
Going forward, newer armies and units will be equipped with better tools to deal with flyer armies. However, in no ways will this be the "death knell" of Cron Air, not by a long shot. Flyers are here to stay for good and they will still be a strong and very competitive army. They just won't be as fearsome then as they are right now, but you will still have trouble beating them with a Take All Comers (TAC) list that is not more customized to fight flyers.
The only way to take away their control of the game is to flood the board with bodies in order to limit their movement. That's why I think horde armies (and especially fearless horde armies without single-point-of-failure units like tervigons) can still do alright against flyer armies despite their inability to really shoot them down.
...and those were "first drafts", so to speak.
Agreed on the hordes, having fought green tide with scythe spam...not fun.
Maybe death knell was a bit strong, but once skyfire and interceptor become common, it starts to become a much more balanced list, and guns with both rules are just brutal against this army.
There are the standard things that can help with reducing his alpha strike. Minimize his ability to nuke your units on the turn he comes in, so on your turn you have more guns available to lay into him with. Going second and reserving your AA is not a bad place to start. What you do leave on the table, get as much of it out of LOS as possible. Also, watch for chances to force him to overshoot (if he moves within 24" of a unit, move up to him to force him to fly over that unit on the next turn, just watch out that he can't turn into you with other scythes on the board).
If in that second turn you can survive the alpha strike relatively intact, knock out 2-3 scythes (preferably doom scythes), and force a few more off the board (or at least out of firing position for a couple turns), you should at least have a fighting chance. Just hope GW doesn't drag their feet on getting the other flier and AA units out there.
Unholy_Martyr wrote:Are you sure that's how it is played, by my understanding, if the unit ends up 12" away from coteaz after moving on from reserve, you can resolve the shots against them.
That's how it's ruled in the INAT.
Just to clarify, that ruling in the INAT is basically just a clarification on GW's own ruling in the Grey Knight FAQ. That GWFAQ answer pretty clearly indicates that you're supposed to check range at the point the model enters the board from Reserve, not where it finishes its movement upon entering from Reserves.
I will say though, without hesitation, that army is the most OP army I have ever seen in this game in any edition.
I think people need to calm down a little now.
This is a very effective spam list to be sure, but like all spam lists is has its counters.
Infantry horde (orks, foot guard, nids) should be able to shrug off this lists shooting and any alpha strike army that gets first turn (Drop pods, IG Leafblower, DEldar, Deamons) could table this list early.
I would rather face this list than jy2`s wraith/flyer list.
I will say though, without hesitation, that army is the most OP army I have ever seen in this game in any edition.
I think people need to calm down a little now.
This is a very effective spam list to be sure, but like all spam lists is has its counters.
Infantry horde (orks, foot guard, nids) should be able to shrug off this lists shooting and any alpha strike army that gets first turn (Drop pods, IG Leafblower, DEldar, Deamons) could table this list early.
I would rather face this list than jy2`s wraith/flyer list.
That list gives out horrendous amounts of shooting. No list can just "shrug off" that amount of firepower. Pure horde list might have enough troops left at the end of the game to win objectives, that much I give. But you can't use such list in tournament, there's no way you could play the game in allotted time-slot.
As for tabling that army on first turn, you're forgetting the existence of LOS-blocking terrain and Everliving. Assuming no terrain and infinite fire-power, you've only got 45% chance of killing the 2 Overlords/Destroyer Lords because of EL, and if the opponent is willing to pay 60 points, that chance drops to 25%. Or he can switch the second overlord for royal court + Orb, and now your chances of tabling him is max 12.5% and its further halved for each 25 points your opponent is willing to spend to secure his victory.
So no, alpha strike shooting will not win this list, unless you're 1) really lucky 2) playing on a table without any LOS blocking terrain. Alpha Strike list combined with Vanguard veterans that you use to attack from reserves might work.
I do agree that pure flyer spam is probably not as good as some hybrid list, but until new codexes arrive with Skyfire and Interceptor units, Necrons in 6e will be far, far OP than GK ever were in 5e.
I will say though, without hesitation, that army is the most OP army I have ever seen in this game in any edition.
I think people need to calm down a little now.
This is a very effective spam list to be sure, but like all spam lists is has its counters.
Infantry horde (orks, foot guard, nids) should be able to shrug off this lists shooting and any alpha strike army that gets first turn (Drop pods, IG Leafblower, DEldar, Deamons) could table this list early.
I would rather face this list than jy2`s wraith/flyer list.
That is not me knee-jerking or being hyperbolic at all, that is my honest assessment. Can it be beaten? Yes, of course. But most lists won't and more importantly, it will be a terribly unenjoyable game.
Until we get more AA, flyers will dominate.
Every tournament we've been to so far has been won by Flyer based lists and won by a large margin.
I think you misunderstand me here, flyer based lists are going to do very well I just dont think this is the best example. It seems to spammy to me which means it can get caught out in some match ups.
That list gives out horrendous amounts of shooting. No list can just "shrug off" that amount of firepower. Pure horde list might have enough troops left at the end of the game to win objectives, that much I give. But you can't use such list in tournament, there's no way you could play the game in allotted time-slot.
As for tabling that army on first turn, you're forgetting the existence of LOS-blocking terrain and Everliving. Assuming no terrain and infinite fire-power, you've only got 45% chance of killing the 2 Overlords/Destroyer Lords because of EL, and if the opponent is willing to pay 60 points, that chance drops to 25%. Or he can switch the second overlord for royal court + Orb, and now your chances of tabling him is max 12.5% and its further halved for each 25 points your opponent is willing to spend to secure his victory.
So no, alpha strike shooting will not win this list, unless you're 1) really lucky 2) playing on a table without any LOS blocking terrain. Alpha Strike list combined with Vanguard veterans that you use to attack from reserves might work.
I do agree that pure flyer spam is probably not as good as some hybrid list, but until new codexes arrive with Skyfire and Interceptor units, Necrons in 6e will be far, far OP than GK ever were in 5e.
"Shrug off" may have been too strong but having tried to eliminate massed guardsmen/orks with tesla destructors I think they can take it.
Im not forgetting that terrain exists LOL, the lists I mentioned are mostly very mobile or use a lot of barrage weapons. The risk of getting tabled comes in games when your opponent gets first turn so they have 2 turns to table your starting army. The biggest problem will be deep striking assault armies (or any deepstrike army that can beat crons in assault) who can land first turn then assault 2nd turn to get sweeping advances/spread out to prevent EL rolls.
The list is nasty but could be better if it was less spammy IMO. As you say, flyer heavy hybrid lists will probably work best.
Edit: Random point; Is running out of time any worse for a horde player than their opponent? 180 orks can make it to objectives in 2-3 turns and would be hard to shift in the same amount of time.
Once you allow FW, quite a lot of armies can compete with the flying circus:
Contemptor Mortis Dreads (space marines, black templars and dark angels) is the best ground-based AA available. Bs5, interceptor, skyfire with lots of weapon options. They are expensive, but armed right, they will take down one airplane before it does anything..
Hyperios platforms (all marine variants)
Sabre platforms (ig)
Flakk guns (orks)
More planes (ig, all marines, eldar, tau, chaos)
With a few mortis dreads and some hyperios platforms, you can expect to shoot down 3+ planes each time they enter the board, THAT will frustrate the necron player to no end. Add some of the tips below to this and you should win.
I've played against 6 flyer list at 1750 quite a lot. IMO, the all-out flyer spam list is weaker than the necron list with serious ground forces. The lists I've played against is 18 wraiths, destroyer lord + 6 planes or GK allies + 6 planes. What I have learned:
1: Officer of the fleet is amazing value against airplanes. I outright won a game when I managed to roll up -1 to enemy reserve rolls as well, meaning that my necron opponent had to roll 5's to get his planes in before turn 4. I crushed his unsupported ground forces while he frustratedly waited for air support.
2: Bring interceptor guns. Nothing is more frustrating than having the most important plane shot down before it does anything. I've been on the recieving end of this as well, and it sucks. Interceptor + skyfire is amazing! Icarus lascannon is better than quad IMO, higher S and AP makes it a more reliable killer. Quad bounces to easily.
3: Bring dogfighters. I bring 2x vendetta, which is probably the number 3 dogfighter out there. Other (codex) dogfighters include: stormraven, storm talon, razorwing, voidraven, dakkajet and of course doom/night scythe.
4: Aegis line is great value to lessen the damage the planes can do to your ground forces.
5: Anything but Ap1-2 is frustrating to fire at necrons. There are 2 damage results that kill planes, stun and explode. Everything else is pretty much garbage. Shaken would be decent against doom scythes, but of course they ignore it on 2+. Stun is ignored on a 4+, so that leaves a 6 as the only real killer for necron planes. This is also why hydras have questionable value IMO. They can pick a hullpoint here and there, but the need to roll a 6 on damage results means they usually won't kill flyers outright. Hydras should be supporting other AA options, not be the prime AAIMO.
The reason that the all-out flyerspam list is worse than the more balanced version is that it is so fragile to alphastrike armies. I've been playing with making a droppod army (with air support of course). Against such a list, it is almost impossible for a list like the one reecius posted above to survive first round.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Im not forgetting that terrain exists LOL, the lists I mentioned are mostly very mobile or use a lot of barrage weapons. The risk of getting tabled comes in games when your opponent gets first turn so they have 2 turns to table your starting army.
No, you need to table your opponent on turn 1 if you want to win by tabling. On turn 2, he will get on average 6 flyers on table and you're not gonna take them out and you only win if opponent has no models on table at the end of a game turn, not player turn. (BYB page 122) .
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: The biggest problem will be deep striking assault armies (or any deepstrike army that can beat crons in assault) who can land first turn then assault 2nd turn to get sweeping advances/spread out to prevent EL rolls.
Again, you need units that can do turn 1 deep strike assault. Turn 2 just doesn't cut it.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Edit: Random point; Is running out of time any worse for a horde player than their opponent? 180 orks can make it to objectives in 2-3 turns and would be hard to shift in the same amount of time.
Yes, because you'll be playing for a draw almost every match. Meaning you cannot really get good results in the tournament. And there's the possibility of judge saying something like "Ok, you both have X minutes for each turn. When that timer runs out, you won't do anything else except resolve ongoing CC". And if this happens, horde player will most likely lose.
Note: Full 9 flier army is probably not as good against all enemies as more balanced one is. And you can probably make a setup that can win against Necron Flyerwing consistently. Problem is, that list is not gonna work too well against anything else.
So currently Necron army with 6+ flyers is extremely strong and until armies get more Skyfire and Interceptor options, you will see that Necron flyers will dominate tournament scene. My guess is that first order of adaptation will occur quickly, with people starting to take Necron Allies with 2x Night Scythe and 1 Doomscythe.
I agree that there are some bad match-ups for them, and horde armies can beat them through board control, but they are just so tough.
@Illumini
Yeah, I totally agree and that is the main reason we pushed for FW this tournament season as it levels the playing field. And, there are a lot of other units that are just fun to use that I think will greatly enhance the enjoyment of the game.
Luide wrote: No, you need to table your opponent on turn 1 if you want to win by tabling. On turn 2, he will get on average 6 flyers on table and you're not gonna take them out and you only win if opponent has no models on table at the end of a game turn, not player turn. (BYB page 122) .
I had missed this! Thought it was player turn. Makes things much better for heavy reserves armies.
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
warriors x 5 with Night Scythe
Deathmarks x 5 with Night Scythe
Deathmarks x 5 with Night Scythe
Do you guys allow forgeworld in the mix? Because I think any army that can take Vultures would shred the RAF. (or would it be NAF?) They have vector dancer so they can turn 90, move then turn 90 again. Or more specifically an Elysian List from IA 8. Every unit can take a Valk as a DT.
Wouldn't greentide be a good counter as well? Simply flooding the board with boyz forces the cron air either crash or off the table. That would be a pretty all commers list too as not many armies can handle 200+ models.
For your next "unfun" list vs something. Make the winner take The cinnamon challenge. FYI this is one of the funniest 40k things I've ever seen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For your next "unfun" list vs something. Make the winner take The cinnamon challenge. FYI this is one of the funniest 40k things I've ever seen.
In regards to competitive play and basing it only on my experiences during the NOVA...
It felt to me that Cron air could be very effective and so could the modified Cron Air with heavy Wraiths. The problem is over the course of many games they will let you down due to reserve rolls being too unreliable. Mathematically you will have times when many of your flyers just don't come on the board and when games can end on turn 5 it may mean only one or two turns to utilize those points.
Also the way that Doomscythes were handled by the NOVAFAQ they became fairly risky to take. If you evade you can not fire the Death Ray. If you had one or two you may have entire games where neither of them ever use a DR or only shoot it a couple times. Not worth it IMHO.
The Cron players that fared the best had only one or two flyers.
That is a nasty list. At 2000pts recently I ran my Plague Marine list in a tourney and beat GK in the first round and was beaten squarely by two scythes, three annihilation barges, and a unit of wraiths I think(whatever the snakey dealies with the whips are) in the second round. The only thing that made losing fun was seeing that crap for the first time. The magic is lost for me now. The problem isn't entirely in the player who fields a list like this, it's at least partially in the ruleset that allows it.
In the words of Jesse Pinkman, "D.B.A.A."
Neil did do quite well, but I was pretty shocked to see not more of them doing well. In our test games it is easy as pie to walk all over folks with that list.
MVBrandt and I were talking and he tabled the Flyer list with his 5 Tervigon Nids by covering the board. Horde Orks could do that, too.
I do agree that a mixed list will be more flexible and fun to play.
And yeah, the Cinnamon challenge is something we've discussed! hahaha
Would 5 flyers count as spam at 1750? If so then my list did quite well getting me to the final four in the invitational. If it doesnt..then..alrighty then
But i would agree the flyer lists walk over certain things, but at NOVA there are too many things that can go wrong. One of which being a quarters missions against a full horde/foot army. Which is what happened to me sadly against Kopach.
Sharkvictim wrote: That is a nasty list. At 2000pts recently I ran my Plague Marine list in a tourney and beat GK in the first round and was beaten squarely by two scythes, three annihilation barges, and a unit of wraiths I think(whatever the snakey dealies with the whips are) in the second round. The only thing that made losing fun was seeing that crap for the first time. The magic is lost for me now. The problem isn't entirely in the player who fields a list like this, it's at least partially in the ruleset that allows it.
In the words of Jesse Pinkman, "D.B.A.A."
HE BEAT ME!!!! He also chin checked a dread knight with two demon princes. Kinda cool!
