Okay, basically I took a 7ish year hiatus from the hobby. Coming back, I delved back in. Alot's changed. I primarily play in GW's due to them being more common about where I live than flgs. Here's the thing that drives me mad though.

When the hell did these god damned citadel gaming boards become standard?

Seriously, I love Warhammer fantasy and these damned things ram 3ish hills, usually into peoples deployment. It's gotten to the point that newer players look at me funny when I remind them hills are a terrain piece, not just a thing that's always there.

Add in that they follow citadels wierd obsession with skulls (seriously, in the ground, on the walls, even in the cieling) and we have a board that is full of dice cocking crevices and match balance altering hills. Ok rant over.

So what do you think dakka? Am I just getting my crazy all over the internet?

MY FLGS has one citadel board, which is used almost exclusively for Warmachine (the irony ..)

We also have a huge closet full of scenery, mats and other good gubbins for WHFB and 40K

Can't really say much on the GW store front for it being a standard, as there isn't a fething GW store in my state, and only two i know of within a days's drive.

I'd not be shocked if they are required to use the gaming boards though, and only use Citadel scenery..

you may be getting a little crazy, but yeah....people don't play enough at home with home made terrain, I get that.

To me..the WORST thing about the hobby is the vocal 10% or so "HATERS" who complain about EVERYTHING GW. "This" is overpriced, "GW" is greedy, "IT USED TO BE BETTER". It seems like to me that when people run out of money or are on the brink of leaving the hobby due to whatever, they spend the last year complaining about the hobby and talking garbage about GW.

I fail to understand why if you hate something so much that you spend any time thinking or discussing it. Negative people in general bug me and GW detractors are the worst because they are usually pretty smart and come up with these logical sounding arguments about GW is the devil. Honestly, they are a company trying to make money and provide an awesome line of product at the same time. If you don't like it....go play a different game or better yet, just go away.

 Ascalam wrote:


MY FLGS has one citadel board, which is used almost exclusively for Warmachine (the irony ..)

We also have a huge closet full of scenery, mats and other good gubbins for WHFB and 40K

Can't really say much on the GW store front for it being a standard, as there isn't a fething GW store in my state, and only two i know of within a days's drive.

I'd not be shocked if they are required to use the gaming boards though, and only use Citadel scenery..

Yeah it's citadel only scenery, they typically won't let people use scratch built stuff. I can get them restricting the models, it's no different to restraunts getting pissy if people start eating thier own sandwiches, but the fact that they have a wonderfull habbit of cluttering the fantasy tables with 5-10 scenery pieces ontop of the moulded in hills is grating.

GW abandoned the hobby aspect (except painting) to concentrate on selling molded plastic (with as much skull detailing as inhumanly possible).

What really irritates me is that the painting articles have now stopped too (in WD this month, it was you need these paints for your Daemons and that was it) so they can sell painting guides for your ipad (which of course everyone owns).

I, for one, think the Citadel Realm of Battle board is pretty neat. It's beautifully sculpted and you can do a lot with it. But the price? Nyeeeehhhhh......

While I'm sure other people will gladly tell you this, the reason why Games Workshop uses the RoB as a standard is so that when people play on it they think, "Wow! This thing is great! Where do I get one!". It's advertising, really. Do I think it's right? Not really. As for the skull obsession... it's a bit over the top with how some people set them up as. When I see the RoB made up as grasslands I wonder "Where did all of those fething skulls come from? Is this world secretly corrupted by Khornate worshipers?". The skull pits take the cake, really.

Plus, I'm the kind of guy who thinks that you should craft your own board. The RoB is great if you have the money and want to create a hellish landscape. But a hand crafted board always impresses me more (My favorite being City Scapes. I always loved a properly ruined city). That being said, I've been wowed by the things people have done with it.

I also think the built in hills are odd as well. They're cool, yes, but I wish they supplied additional tiles that were flat. (They do have tiles that lack them but it's going to cost you extra).

almostreal wrote:
you may be getting a little crazy, but yeah....people don't play enough at home with home made terrain, I get that.

To me..the WORST thing about the hobby is the vocal 10% or so "HATERS" who complain about EVERYTHING GW. "This" is overpriced, "GW" is greedy, "IT USED TO BE BETTER". It seems like to me that when people run out of money or are on the brink of leaving the hobby due to whatever, they spend the last year complaining about the hobby and talking garbage about GW.

I fail to understand why if you hate something so much that you spend any time thinking or discussing it. Negative people in general bug me and GW detractors are the worst because they are usually pretty smart and come up with these logical sounding arguments about GW is the devil. Honestly, they are a company trying to make money and provide an awesome line of product at the same time. If you don't like it....go play a different game or better yet, just go away.

Er....was that aimed at me?

Because If it was, you're well of the mark. I wouldn't be on a GW heavy wargaming if I was now would I?

Why even bring it up? Nobody here is stating that GW is greedy/evil/EATING MY GOLD. I was just stating my dismay that a product that I personally feel is inferior has become standard issue for a large wargaming companies stores, and seeing if anyone agreed/disagreed/felt my sexual orientation was at question.

almostreal wrote:
you may be getting a little crazy, but yeah....people don't play enough at home with home made terrain, I get that.

To me..the WORST thing about the hobby is the vocal 10% or so "HATERS" who complain about EVERYTHING GW. "This" is overpriced, "GW" is greedy, "IT USED TO BE BETTER". It seems like to me that when people run out of money or are on the brink of leaving the hobby due to whatever, they spend the last year complaining about the hobby and talking garbage about GW.

I fail to understand why if you hate something so much that you spend any time thinking or discussing it. Negative people in general bug me and GW detractors are the worst because they are usually pretty smart and come up with these logical sounding arguments about GW is the devil. Honestly, they are a company trying to make money and provide an awesome line of product at the same time. If you don't like it....go play a different game or better yet, just go away.

Reading this rather angry post.. I have to ask, did you buy one of those boards, and have only now finally realised that it's an over-priced piece of gak.. ?

I hate those boards. Dice do not roll correctly on them. They always get stuck and then you gotta re-roll, and then it gets stuck again or it goes off the table ... Yeesh.

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
I hate those boards. Dice do not roll correctly on them. They always get stuck and then you gotta re-roll, and then it gets stuck again or it goes off the table ... Yeesh.

To be fair, that's because they are modular and staff often don't push them together enough....or players nudge them apart and make crevices. Evil, dice eating crevices. The hills don't help though.

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
I hate those boards. Dice do not roll correctly on them. They always get stuck and then you gotta re-roll, and then it gets stuck again or it goes off the table ... Yeesh.

Probably shouldn't be rolling dice on them anyway to be honest. My biggest gripe is the price.

brettz123 wrote:

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
I hate those boards. Dice do not roll correctly on them. They always get stuck and then you gotta re-roll, and then it gets stuck again or it goes off the table ... Yeesh.

Probably shouldn't be rolling dice on them anyway to be honest. My biggest gripe is the price.

Yeah, they are expensive to boot. And why shouldn't I be rolling dice on a gaming table? Where the hell else should I roll them, the floor?

almostreal wrote:
you may be getting a little crazy, but yeah....people don't play enough at home with home made terrain, I get that.

To me..the WORST thing about the hobby is the vocal 10% or so "HATERS" who complain about EVERYTHING GW. "This" is overpriced, "GW" is greedy, "IT USED TO BE BETTER". It seems like to me that when people run out of money or are on the brink of leaving the hobby due to whatever, they spend the last year complaining about the hobby and talking garbage about GW.

I fail to understand why if you hate something so much that you spend any time thinking or discussing it. Negative people in general bug me and GW detractors are the worst because they are usually pretty smart and come up with these logical sounding arguments about GW is the devil. Honestly, they are a company trying to make money and provide an awesome line of product at the same time. If you don't like it....go play a different game or better yet, just go away.

Well said, this sums this tread up

Mr Mugguffins wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
I hate those boards. Dice do not roll correctly on them. They always get stuck and then you gotta re-roll, and then it gets stuck again or it goes off the table ... Yeesh.

Probably shouldn't be rolling dice on them anyway to be honest. My biggest gripe is the price.

Yeah, they are expensive to boot. And why shouldn't I be rolling dice on a gaming table? Where the hell else should I roll them, the floor?

In a box lid, a nearby other table...

There are a few things that are lame about GW right now.
1. I would really like to see a little balance in the game.
that said, this would not be an issue if there were less neck-beards who think that skill at 40k is exemplified by running out and buying the newest brutal netlist. But the BEST possible fix would be the addition of more balance to the game system.
2. All the whiners. There are a small and very vocal minority of whiners that you will run into. Just avoid these people like they have nurgles rot and your experience will be greatly improved.

I find that playing just for fun games with middle of the road lists improves my games experience. avoid games with neckbeards and avoid tournaments without a comp system and you can mitigate most of the issues with playing GW games.

In your case i would suggest a dice box or tower. It keeps the die flat and facilitates keeping the game board free of extrenuous dice.

Mr Mugguffins wrote:
Okay, basically I took a 7ish year hiatus from the hobby. Coming back, I delved back in. Alot's changed. I primarily play in GW's due to them being more common about where I live than flgs. Here's the thing that drives me mad though.

When the hell did these god damned citadel gaming boards become standard?

Seriously, I love Warhammer fantasy and these damned things ram 3ish hills, usually into peoples deployment. It's gotten to the point that newer players look at me funny when I remind them hills are a terrain piece, not just a thing that's always there.

Add in that they follow citadels wierd obsession with skulls (seriously, in the ground, on the walls, even in the cieling) and we have a board that is full of dice cocking crevices and match balance altering hills. Ok rant over.

So what do you think dakka? Am I just getting my crazy all over the internet?

I have no interest in them tbh. I like an old school hand made game table. Have never played on one actually...

I do think that the hills on the board in question are a little excessive. It looks like the center of an earthquake zone. Anyway, if your looking for cheap scenery try any pet store. Aquarium plants, rock faces, I've even seen little stone walls that looked amazing for $3 a piece.

If your sick of the dice getting stuck, get something like liquid nails and glue a box lid to the side of the board for dice rolling.

I have a Zuzzy battle mat, and I have a ROBB. My original idea was that I'd take my ROBB over to my friends house. Once it arrived I realized I was a fool, because there is no way that thing is ever leaving my house. It weighs 30 pounds, which doesn't seem like much, c'mon, 30 pounds what kind of wuss can't lift that? No, bro. See, I also would have to bring over my folding table, and had visions of one-handing it. I guess the way I should of thought of it was, am I strong enough to carry my folding table in one arm and 4 gallons of milk in the other? I might be able to, but I certainly will not want to.

And, since it's never leaving the house, I should have just made my own out of insulation. Ah well, what's done is done.

That being said, I do like it. I don't have issues with dice bouncing of crevices - you guys know it comes with clips to hold the sections together, right? and the skull pits and hills don't bother me.

But, if I could do it over again, I'd get another Zuzzy map instead.

Mr Mugguffins wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

 Noisy_Marine wrote:
I hate those boards. Dice do not roll correctly on them. They always get stuck and then you gotta re-roll, and then it gets stuck again or it goes off the table ... Yeesh.

Probably shouldn't be rolling dice on them anyway to be honest. My biggest gripe is the price.

Yeah, they are expensive to boot. And why shouldn't I be rolling dice on a gaming table? Where the hell else should I roll them, the floor?

Our gaming table is even worse than the GW ones for catching dice at awkward angles. Dice towers have been a godsend.

almostreal wrote:
you may be getting a little crazy, but yeah....people don't play enough at home with home made terrain, I get that.

To me..the WORST thing about the hobby is the vocal 10% or so "HATERS" who complain about EVERYTHING GW. "This" is overpriced, "GW" is greedy, "IT USED TO BE BETTER". It seems like to me that when people run out of money or are on the brink of leaving the hobby due to whatever, they spend the last year complaining about the hobby and talking garbage about GW.

I fail to understand why if you hate something so much that you spend any time thinking or discussing it. Negative people in general bug me and GW detractors are the worst because they are usually pretty smart and come up with these logical sounding arguments about GW is the devil. Honestly, they are a company trying to make money and provide an awesome line of product at the same time. If you don't like it....go play a different game or better yet, just go away.

I think you are a little off the mark. Not all out and out wrong, but a little stepping the "Haters goona hate" aspect.

I'm not even going to go into nitpicking every little thing, because on the surface, you have a point.

On other aspects, your wrong, and heres why- ( to one particular mod...)

The first point is about the price-

Alot of players got into the game when it was a fiver for a squad, and a tenner for a vehicle. As you evolve through the 3-6th edition, and are looking at it from nastalga perspective, it is easy to get bitter over the price- especially when you are not seeing the same amount of care and quality going into the product, and seeing more of the sales pitch being slung your way- when a ways back you were seeing the salesmens pitch being spun from a gaming perspective.

Face it GW is grown into a multimillion doller/ GBP/ EURO overfed sloth. They have to be to have as steady a business as they have, and not worry if they lose some customers, to gain others, and venture into uncharted territory and push envelopes, and all the while spin it in a positive business perspective. Becuase in the end- slow and steady wins the race.

the second point is about thier vibe.

We don't like some of thier practices, because quite simply- they have changed. I could easily sit here and spout off all of that "Get off my lawn!" stuff, but to put it in easy, no haters gonna hate discussion- This is not the same game that we ( general we, as in older players) were brought up on. You started off with a game that was a hybrid RPG- Miniatures game that you had literally dozens of charts, graphs, and choices that you could go down to the shops, pick up reasonably cheap( for the time period) figures from any company, and they were what you had to play. Emphisis on the play. We didn't worry about that outright hostility that GW evolved to the point that WYSIWYG is verboten, simply because we didn't have 50-80% of the choices that were needed to complete the figure range, so in essence- nessesity dictated that you bought whatever to fit the mold of the figures you want. ( Want to talk about charts? Two titles- Slaves to Darkness, and Freebooters, comes to mind.)

so in short- GW didn't have the figure range, so it was open season. NOW? GW needs to sell figures to stay relevent, so they by order of survivle have limited the figure choices to thier exclusive range, and 3d parties be damned.( sory, not to be personal, but this is by order of the GW corperate business side of the coin...)

As for prices.... Let someone else wack that mole.


But thats my points on the conversation. Yes, players, older ones, that is, are bitter- but they are not the target audience that the game is now directed at. So of course, they put in all that time and effort, only to be told to suck it, of course they are going to be bitter.


Get off my lawn!

@grotsnot or whatever your monika is...

Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

When i encounter whiners i always ask "So how much for your army?" They reply its not for sale, i reply then "If your going to keep plaaying then shut it.

Keep in mind that GW obviously hopes to make 40K become as much mainstream and non-niche as possible (I assume) to maximize sales.

The target audience is younger kids/teens not grizzled vets. Newcomers to the world of wargaming have a hard enough time learning all the rules, collecting a fully built army and painting it, etc., etc. much less learning the skills of table/terrain building (which is in itself its own hobby with its own costs, time requirements and skill requirements).

The battleboards allow young timmy (or someone buying him a gift) to buy a game surface that he has no knowledge/motivation/skill to build on his own, or perhaps he has a lack of decicated gaming/storage space, or who perhaps he wants to be able to take to little Billy's house for the 40K sleepover party, etc.

Many people have no desire to build terrain/tables nor the room/tools/skills/space to do so. The battle boards are for them. People with money but no time/skill/desire can buy an acceptable surface to play on if they choose.

But the problem is that there is no alternative set up for the kids coming into the wargaming hobby.

All they see in WD is page after page of the RoB board. And while I'm sure a lot of kids would want that board, ask yourself (and thinking back to when you were younger) would you spend the money on that obscene price tag, when there are so many other minis on sale? The kids will choose the minis every time, and in the meantime there are no more simple tutorials (as you used to have), to present a cheaper option for people who want to play but don't have the money for the RoB board.

When I got into the hobby, terrain building was an essential part of it and there were plenty of tutorials in WD, even events in the stores where you could build your own stuff. What will they do now? Treat terrain building as some kind of Pandora's box, that must not be opened, because it will mean that the opportunity to flog people ridiculously over-priced pre-built boards and terrain will be lost.

I agree that the RoB does have its uses. I'm glad its on sale, and like you say CT Gamer there are many reasons why it could be a viable option. What I dislike, is that its existence (as well as the other terrain pieces) seem to have completely closed off other avenues of terrain creation as far as Games Workshop is concerned. Previously it was an (admittedly less often explored) part of the 'hobby' experience, but now there will now be a lot of gamers coming into GW games that will not learn those skills, and benefit from the enjoyment of crafting your own terrain.

I think that with less than £50, a trip to a DIY store and perhaps a local model shop/hobbycraft, any kid could be shown how to make a board that is far superior to the RoB board and will also give them a far greater sense of fulfilment through it's creation - and for many of us, I think that is one of the greatest pleasures this hobby can bring.

 Pacific wrote:
But the problem is that there is no alternative set up for the kids coming into the wargaming hobby.

GW sells an alternative. It's right there on the shelf. The battlemat.

And it's a damn good product and, funnily enough, well priced for what you get.

 Pacific wrote:
But the problem is that there is no alternative set up for the kids coming into the wargaming hobby.

All they see in WD is page after page of the RoB board. And while I'm sure a lot of kids would want that board, ask yourself (and thinking back to when you were younger) would you spend the money on that obscene price tag, when there are so many other minis on sale? The kids will choose the minis every time, and in the meantime there are no more simple tutorials (as you used to have), to present a cheaper option for people who want to play but don't have the money for the RoB board.

When I got into the hobby, terrain building was an essential part of it and there were plenty of tutorials in WD, even events in the stores where you could build your own stuff. What will they do now? Treat terrain building as some kind of Pandora's box, that must not be opened, because it will mean that the opportunity to flog people ridiculously over-priced pre-built boards and terrain will be lost.

I agree that the RoB does have its uses. I'm glad its on sale, and like you say CT Gamer there are many reasons why it could be a viable option. What I dislike, is that its existence (as well as the other terrain pieces) seem to have completely closed off other avenues of terrain creation as far as Games Workshop is concerned. Previously it was an (admittedly less often explored) part of the 'hobby' experience, but now there will now be a lot of gamers coming into GW games that will not learn those skills, and benefit from the enjoyment of crafting your own terrain.

I think that with less than £50, a trip to a DIY store and perhaps a local model shop/hobbycraft, any kid could be shown how to make a board that is far superior to the RoB board and will also give them a far greater sense of fulfilment through it's creation - and for many of us, I think that is one of the greatest pleasures this hobby can bring.

i agree with you: I love to build tables and terrain myself (though I do love the GW kits as well).

But it is not something that everyone is motivated to do, and it can also be seen as a deterrant to getting into the hobby for some.

As GW sees it (I think) they are giving people the option of purchasing a table/terrain set up indicative of the setting and similar ot those timmy sees in the books/GW art, etc.

For some money is no obstacle, and GW now gives them the option of buying a 40K battlefield from the ground up.

I don't see options/choice as a bad thing.

I also don't see it as GW responsibility to teach/inform people of ways to bypass/replace their products. To be fair, what other company publishes a magazine filled with how to articles on ways replace/ avoid the need for their products?

GW is a terrain manufacturer now, more so then ever, why are they honor bound to uphold old ways of doing things if they provide products that serve the same purpose? The expectation for them to do so is ludicrous...

 Flashman wrote:

What really irritates me is that the painting articles have now stopped too (in WD this month, it was you need these paints for your Daemons and that was it) so they can sell painting guides for your ipad (which of course everyone owns).

THIS

I remember there being "Citadel Masterclasses" in WD, which was a 4-5 page feature which ran you through all the techniques used to paint a single model. Each stage/part had a detailed guide with a picture for each step. They were actually really, really good. I still have the Dreadlord on Cold One which I used the Masterclass for and it remains as one of my best painted models, despite being around 4 years old. That's how good they were.

Now of course, the best you get is: "Leadbelcher Base, Agrax Earthshade Shade etc etc". And even that's rare. It sucks.

If I wrote about the top things I hate about GW these days, the realm of battle, if it made the list, would be way down the list. Also, I've never considered the mountains as dt, just our style here I guess.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
But the problem is that there is no alternative set up for the kids coming into the wargaming hobby.

GW sells an alternative. It's right there on the shelf. The battlemat.

And it's a damn good product and, funnily enough, well priced for what you get.

I love my battlemat, it is awesome and works a treat.

I think the worst thing is the lack of hype and overly secretive releases. I understand how the LotR and Hobbit films want(ed) to not reveal how characters will look but let us know about other projects that aren't someone else's work. In which case I mean 40k/WHFB or even the 'specialist games' like Space Hulk. $0 in advertising might help the bottom line but it also means the product doesn't get sold because noone knows about it to buy it. I don't keep my ear to the ground regarding rumors or interweb banter.

I remember hearing one idea was that it's all about the impulse but for me my impulse is in planning how much I can spend in a given month and if a video game comes out before a GW wave that I knew nothing about then GW it going to have to wait for me to put aside next month's allotted $$.

 SalamanderMarine wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
But the problem is that there is no alternative set up for the kids coming into the wargaming hobby.

GW sells an alternative. It's right there on the shelf. The battlemat.

And it's a damn good product and, funnily enough, well priced for what you get.

I love my battlemat, it is awesome and works a treat.

It's something I'd recommend to anyone, even if they had the money and were perfectly willing to buy the RoBB.

It bypasses the need to flock and paint, like the RoBB. It's easier to store. It doesn't have built in anti-terrain. It doesn't have skull pits.

And the huge amount of money saved can be spent on buying/making better terrain and on figs.

I think the Realm of Repression boards in the stores are just more plastic being pushed.
I would rather play on a home made table any day. I've been to conventions like Historicon where there have been some absolutely beautiful boards to play on.

My FLGS used to have a RoBB set up among its many hand made boards, and was used for a cityfight board (a lot of buildings painted in the same colours).

I rarely saw it used, and it appears to be gone in favour of another hand made board.

Mr Mugguffins wrote:
When the hell did these god damned citadel gaming boards become standard?

Where are you playing? In GW stores? Of course they pimp their own products.

Play in with friends or at clubs and you'll very rarely see one.

I have one, just because it's easy to transport.

I'd like to have a RoB as a base for my table: cover the skullpits, add flock and sand, modify it a bit so that it won't look like a stock RoB.

But it's too expensive to be that.

CT GAMER wrote:

I also don't see it as GW responsibility to teach/inform people of ways to bypass/replace their products. To be fair, what other company publishes a magazine filled with how to articles on ways replace/ avoid the need for their products?

GW is a terrain manufacturer now, more so then ever, why are they honor bound to uphold old ways of doing things if they provide products that serve the same purpose? The expectation for them to do so is ludicrous...

Well, Wargames Illustrated for a start?

I would't say they are honour bound - but it would be nice to have some kind of recognition of the wider model building hobby. It's kind of hypocritical that they still bill themselves as a 'hobby' (and believe me when I say this is a massive draw for parents - that their kids will be doing some creative) but at the same time cut down on the amount of 'hobby' involved.

Hobby-hobby-hobby-hobby-hobby-hobby-hobby- Argghhhhh! *head explodes*

fishy bob wrote:Haters gunna hate lulz

Thanks for that well reasoned and thought out critique. (Sorry... I hate sarcasm, but that reply was deserving of it! )

SalamanderMarine wrote:

I love my battlemat, it is awesome and works a treat.

Actually yes I had forgotten about that, it is rather good! I'm amazed it is actually still on sale in fact.

 mrwhoop wrote:

I remember hearing one idea was that it's all about the impulse but for me my impulse is in planning how much I can spend in a given month and if a video game comes out before a GW wave that I knew nothing about then GW it going to have to wait for me to put aside next month's allotted $$.

Agreeing here as well. If someone thinks they may possibly want to buy some new figs or start a new army, if said things are announced say, two months in advance, that person might decide that he'd buy that and start to put money aside for it. If said things are revealed to that person with no warning whatsoever then it's likely that he won't have any spare money and won't bother.

Mr Mugguffins wrote:
Okay, basically I took a 7ish year hiatus from the hobby. Coming back, I delved back in. Alot's changed. I primarily play in GW's due to them being more common about where I live than flgs. Here's the thing that drives me mad though.

When the hell did these god damned citadel gaming boards become standard?

Seriously, I love Warhammer fantasy and these damned things ram 3ish hills, usually into peoples deployment. It's gotten to the point that newer players look at me funny when I remind them hills are a terrain piece, not just a thing that's always there.

Add in that they follow citadels wierd obsession with skulls (seriously, in the ground, on the walls, even in the cieling) and we have a board that is full of dice cocking crevices and match balance altering hills. Ok rant over.

So what do you think dakka? Am I just getting my crazy all over the internet?

It's like you took what's in my head and just started typing it out.

 The Shadow wrote:

 mrwhoop wrote:

I remember hearing one idea was that it's all about the impulse but for me my impulse is in planning how much I can spend in a given month and if a video game comes out before a GW wave that I knew nothing about then GW it going to have to wait for me to put aside next month's allotted $$.

Agreeing here as well. If someone thinks they may possibly want to buy some new figs or start a new army, if said things are announced say, two months in advance, that person might decide that he'd buy that and start to put money aside for it. If said things are revealed to that person with no warning whatsoever then it's likely that he won't have any spare money and won't bother.

Clearly GW think they make more money from the customers who say 'zOMG I must havez that now!!" every month rather than people who save up to make large planned purchases every few months.

Seeing as GW primarily target younger audiences who are only in the hobby for a couple of years at most then this probably is the best strategy as it taps the money in their wallets as frequently as possible. The idea of saving up for a few months to make a planned purchase is something that comes with age and maturity, not typical of GW's targeted age groups.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
When i encounter whiners i always ask "So how much for your army?" They reply its not for sale, i reply then "If your going to keep plaaying then shut it.

Damn straight boy. You can only keep playing this game if you never complain about any aspect of it ever. At all.

"Valid criticism"? Pfft! All I hear is the sound of dem haterz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CT GAMER wrote:
The battle boards are for them. People with money but no time/skill/desire can buy an acceptable surface to play on if they choose.

But that's just it - it's not. A RoB doesn't leave you with a table you can play games on. It leaves you with an irregular surface that still requires more terrain before it is complete and something to put it on. The RoB by itself doesn't give you what you need to play a game - you're just buying something that you have to put onto a flat surface... a flat surface you could have used without the RoB board and then spent the money you would have spent on a RoB on some of GW's other terrain.

And, do that second part - you still have to put the RoB on something, so why not just use the thing you're putting the RoB on as the surface instead? It's flat, it can be anything (rather than always hills), and it didn't cost you your first born. That's actually what eats me the most about the RoB. It solves no problems. It doesn't do anything. I own 4 trestle tables. Each one is 6'x2.5'. Put two of 'em together and you have a flat 6x5 surface. I throw a 4' wide table cloth (or my 6x4 battle mat) across the top and I have a playing surface. I then put terrain on that. With a RoB... I'd still be using the trestle tables, and I'd be left with just a surface on top of another surface. Why would you do that? How does that make any sense or solve any problems? I still don't have any terrain to play on, so why did I go and put a playing surface (and an expensive one at that) on top of another playing surface?

I almost brought a RoB, but thanks to some sage advice from MGS I managed to avoid it.

Now whenever I look at one all I hear is 'the Clacking, the Clacking!'

almostreal wrote:
To me..the WORST thing about the hobby is the vocal 10% or so "HATERS" who complain about EVERYTHING GW. "This" is overpriced, "GW" is greedy, "IT USED TO BE BETTER". It seems like to me that when people run out of money or are on the brink of leaving the hobby due to whatever, they spend the last year complaining about the hobby and talking garbage about GW.

10% "or so", eh? That would make our group sound pretty small, if I wasn't about 99.9% sure that statistic was pulled straight out of your ass and means literally nothing.

almostreal wrote:
I fail to understand why if you hate something so much that you spend any time thinking or discussing it.

Likewise, I don't understand why you guys don't just utilize the "Ignore" buttons on Dakka. If you find someone is consistently negative and you don't want to read their posts you can simply ignore that person, problem solved. After all, if you hate negativity so much then why not take your own advice and not waste your time discussing something you hate?

Especially since your post was #3 in this thread, there really wasn't any negativity for you to respond to yet...neither the OP nor Ascalam are "haters" and their posts didn't come off as being overly negative to me. In fact your confrontational post and others like it will likely generate more negativity in the long run than this thread would have otherwise had.

Also, Dakka Dakka isn't a purely 40k/WHF-dedicated forum, and having a favorable opinion of GW isn't a requirement for posting here. So I don't know what you meant by "just go away" but if that was the case then...no.

almostreal wrote:
Negative people in general bug me and GW detractors are the worst because they are usually pretty smart and come up with these logical sounding arguments about GW is the devil.

Yeah...logical-sounding arguments, how awful...

You know it's almost like they might kinda have a point if their arguments about how GW are the devil actually have logic to them and aren't just mindless, unwarranted geek rage.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
I almost brought a RoB, but thanks to some sage advice from MGS I managed to avoid it.

I kinda wanted to get one...back when they were $175. But then the price went up, twice IIRC, while they were still on pre-order and it nearly doubled so there went any and all desire I had to own one.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CT GAMER wrote:
The battle boards are for them. People with money but no time/skill/desire can buy an acceptable surface to play on if they choose.

But that's just it - it's not. A RoB doesn't leave you with a table you can play games on. It leaves you with an irregular surface that still requires more terrain before it is complete and something to put it on. The RoB by itself doesn't give you what you need to play a game - you're just buying something that you have to put onto a flat surface... a flat surface you could have used without the RoB board and then spent the money you would have spent on a RoB on some of GW's other terrain.

And, do that second part - you still have to put the RoB on something, so why not just use the thing you're putting the RoB on as the surface instead? It's flat, it can be anything (rather than always hills), and it didn't cost you your first born. That's actually what eats me the most about the RoB. It solves no problems. It doesn't do anything. I own 4 trestle tables. Each one is 6'x2.5'. Put two of 'em together and you have a flat 6x5 surface. I throw a 4' wide table cloth (or my 6x4 battle mat) across the top and I have a playing surface. I then put terrain on that. With a RoB... I'd still be using the trestle tables, and I'd be left with just a surface on top of another surface. Why would you do that? How does that make any sense or solve any problems? I still don't have any terrain to play on, so why did I go and put a playing surface (and an expensive one at that) on top of another playing surface?

You and I know that.

Now put aside your own logical/analytical mind (and very opinionated stance on all things gaming rooted in much experience in the hobby) and pretend you are Little Timmy or some other 10-13 year old pie-eyed youngster just finding 40K for the first time and with no knowledge of terrain building no expectations rooted in the knowledge of jaded gamers and aged veteran hobbiests.

The ROB board just might seem "Totally awesome". Hell I've seen kids that age play on a picnic table with a few pine cones and empty unit boxes as terrain. The ROB board will probably seem like a dream come true to some of the target audiencce tbh...

almostreal wrote:

To me..the WORST thing about the hobby is the vocal 10% or so "HATERS" who complain about EVERYTHING GW. "This" is overpriced, "GW" is greedy, "IT USED TO BE BETTER". It seems like to me that when people run out of money or are on the brink of leaving the hobby due to whatever, they spend the last year complaining about the hobby and talking garbage about GW.

I fail to understand why if you hate something so much that you spend any time thinking or discussing it. Negative people in general bug me and GW detractors are the worst because they are usually pretty smart and come up with these logical sounding arguments about GW is the devil. Honestly, they are a company trying to make money and provide an awesome line of product at the same time. If you don't like it....go play a different game or better yet, just go away.

Totally agree.

 Flashman wrote:
GW abandoned the hobby aspect (except painting) to concentrate on selling molded plastic (with as much skull detailing as inhumanly possible).

What really irritates me is that the painting articles have now stopped too (in WD this month, it was you need these paints for your Daemons and that was it) so they can sell painting guides for your ipad (which of course everyone owns).

Just to add the colours at least for the Daemonettes won't actually get the finished product anyway.

So not only was it just going "buy these paints" it was also only giving you a rough idea.

Draging the thread back on topic.

IMO the worst thing about the GW hobby these days is it has become all about 'selling toy soldiers to children.'
('Mission statment' of Tom Kirby Chairman of GW plc.)

Which doesent sound too bad, if you are corperate managment talking to share holders, or even 'children' wanting to buy some 'toy soldiers'.

But having been part of the 'here is the frame work to build a fantastical world populated with your own creations,' hobby.
It seems awfuly shallow and contrived.

And so those old enough to remember the highly creative social hobby , where gamers and game developers worked hand in hand to arrive at a great gaming experiance.May feel a little sad at the current direction of GW plc .

 heartserenade wrote:
I'd like to have a RoB as a base for my table: cover the skullpits, add flock and sand, modify it a bit so that it won't look like a stock RoB.

But it's too expensive to be that.

NG g4 has a new ROB now. Some redshirt gave it to us (Sir Freddie recieved it too )

Now in my flgs terrain makers are looked up. Our makers make sweet pieces (normaly ruined 4 story buildings) that are usually fought over which table the pieces go on

I just don't like the mere fact WD is useless for painting guides now.... shame. And the gw dice (long story short they make me roll 5 ones in one go.) Some of our vets say its the weight is not balanced...

almostreal wrote:

I fail to understand why if you hate something so much that you spend any time thinking or discussing it. Negative people in general bug me and GW detractors are the worst because they are usually pretty smart and come up with these logical sounding arguments

Ahh.. for some space in my sig area, what an absolute peach of a quote.

Makes me think of that Bill Hicks sketch about "them readers"..

I like the Realm of Battle but nothing really beats a handmade board.

I gave up on GW for 40k a few months ago.

I rarely even go over the 40k forums etc... Im a hater who moved on =]


Im too busy assembling and painting and playing a better game to be bitching about a boring, mundane and tacticless tabletop top game.

The Citadel Realm of Battle Board is awesome. It is well made, extremely detailed, and can be used for virtually any sci-fi or mini game.
It breaks down and stores easily as well. A truly amazing product.

With that being said, I would get bored just playing on it exclusively. That is why I have 2 other boards I made myself to swap out.

I don't mind playing on them but I would never buy 1, they're way too expensive.

If you don't like the skull pits, you could always cover them with sand or something.

I hope GW continues on its current path. They recruit new customers, churn them for early sales and then most of them quit. Some, however, are life long gamers that just found something cool. When they get churned out, they often discover the huge wide world of the real hobby-- miniature wargaming-- that is there for everyone once they realize "the Games Workshop Hobby" is just a marketing machine.

Some keep playing games GW puts out, others switch to other games and manufacturers. But they put up great galleries and blogs. They have cool modeling projects and help support the tons of smaller companies that I now really like.

Thing is, I see both sides to the story. Growing up with WD, you used to see awesome scratch built tables and terrain like the pictures posted above on a regular basis. Thing is though, very few people (at least, the ones I gamed with in my social circles) had the skill, talent, creativity or aptitude to build terrain and boards anything like those. So most of the time, my friends and I were playing on MDF boards, crudely painted green or badly flocked, with poor terrain kludged from model railway trees, crudely assembled and painted rocks picked from the garden, and hills hacked out of lumps of Styrofoam that looked very little like hills really.

Yes, the ROB does away with creativity and there are only a few ways to configure it so it can be stale but it is painted/flocked easily, breaks down for storage and it looks good with terrain on it. I would rather play on that because it looks semi decent and quite frankly, is a million times better than anything I could ever hope to build myself. Yes, you can buy and build a board for less than £50 but you have to question just how good it will look unless you are a skilled terrain maker. So the choice as always, is convenience over cost. The GW solution costs more (as always) but is just a hell of a lot more convenient than building one from scratch, at least IMO anyway.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
When i encounter whiners i always ask "So how much for your army?" They reply its not for sale, i reply then "If your going to keep plaaying then shut it.

2,500~2750 point Dualwing (and not a AoBR Deathwing either). $500 through Paypal and include your address and pics on request. It's sitting on my table in my office at home.

 Darklight wrote:
The Citadel Realm of Battle Board is awesome. It is well made, extremely detailed, and can be used for virtually any sci-fi or mini game.

It's a flat surface with hills and cracks.
Did I miss something.

Yes, but looks at all the SKULLZZZZ!!!

Okay, I'm sold. I'll take twenty!

I'm indifferent to the realm of battle board. It looks ok but the price is far to high. Besides which I'm really looking forward to the challenge of crafting one myself. I'm in this hobby for the creative aspect anyway.

For me GW worst aspect would be a tie between the price and the whole secret marketing thing. I don't spend every extra dime on GW. I could and probobly would if I knew what was coming ahead of time. I could scronge up 4 or 5 hundred dollars or more to spend just on their product alone if they gave me a heads up. Instead it goes to xbox or sporting events or whatever. I also understand busniess tring to make money it just seems sometime like GW goes above and beyond.

On a side note what kid has 300 dallors to blow. I used to sweat my guts out for 20 or 30 bucks. Guess that shows my age. I don't care what time of year it is if my kids ask for something that expensive the answer is flat out NO.

I don't mind it. Even with no terrain it saves you from the endless plain of Table. That said, I actually like how it can be picked up, stored, and set up relatively painlessly. Along with the forgeworld inserts, you have a good selection of variety available.

I remember at my old GW when they had to re-do one of them, I convinced the store to let me take a shot at painting/modeling it. They had tried to make it into a desert with pits of blood with skulls. Those quickly got filled up with black paint and 'ardcoat to make tarpits. Even added some skeleton and skele-horse bits to add to the effect.

 Ascalam wrote:

Can't really say much on the GW store front for it being a standard, as there isn't a fething GW store in my state, and only two i know of within a days's drive.

I just got one of those ridiculous GW "update" emails last night, and they are taking job applications for Portland, OR so I'd suspect that we do have a store somewhere in Portland, or one's about to be opened somewhere round the city.


As for the worst thing... well, for starters they refer to it as "THE Hobby" as if they are the only miniatures wargame in existence. Most everything I've thought horrible, is almost a direct result, in my eyes, of this view... I mean, we can start with the thing that actually made me and some friends quit 40k (almost simultaneously), which is the prices... When I'm paying as much for a Rhino, as I used to pay for a Land Raider, there's something seriously wrong. If I can buy 3 different gaming systems' rule books for less than the cost of a single Warhammer 40k rule book.

I can see why some people don't like the skull thing, but it's kind of become who GW is... ya know, kinda like that Goth phase that some kids get in school?

 wowsmash wrote:
On a side note what kid has 300 dallors to blow. I used to sweat my guts out for 20 or 30 bucks. Guess that shows my age. I don't care what time of year it is if my kids ask for something that expensive the answer is flat out NO.

I have no idea, when I was a kid I didn't know anyone who was even remotely interested in miniatures or tabletop games like D&D, other than myself (and I didn't even properly learn about 40k until about the time Dawn of War came out). And all the lucky kids who had parents that could actually afford it were interested in other, more socially-acceptable hobbies.

I'm not sure exactly what market GW is after. They're all about the kids, obviously, but it just seems so damn strange to target kids when a lot of adults with full-time jobs can't even really justify buying the models, and most kids would rather play the video game or do something that won't get them a nasty label at school.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
I can see why some people don't like the skull thing, but it's kind of become who GW is... ya know, kinda like that Goth phase that some kids get in school?

Except most kids eventually grow up...

Mr Mugguffins wrote:
I primarily play in GW's due to them being more common about where I live than flgs. Here's the thing that drives me mad though.

Have you checked to see if theres any wargames clubs where you are?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:

Can't really say much on the GW store front for it being a standard, as there isn't a fething GW store in my state, and only two i know of within a days's drive.

I just got one of those ridiculous GW "update" emails last night, and they are taking job applications for Portland, OR so I'd suspect that we do have a store somewhere in Portland, or one's about to be opened somewhere round the city.


As for the worst thing... well, for starters they refer to it as "THE Hobby" as if they are the only miniatures wargame in existence. Most everything I've thought horrible, is almost a direct result, in my eyes, of this view... I mean, we can start with the thing that actually made me and some friends quit 40k (almost simultaneously), which is the prices... When I'm paying as much for a Rhino, as I used to pay for a Land Raider, there's something seriously wrong. If I can buy 3 different gaming systems' rule books for less than the cost of a single Warhammer 40k rule book.

I can see why some people don't like the skull thing, but it's kind of become who GW is... ya know, kinda like that Goth phase that some kids get in school?

Hell for the price you pay for a GW book you can have the rules and a full force for other game systems >> But lets not turn this into a pricerage thread, isnt that time of year yet

doc1234 wrote:


Hell for the price you pay for a GW book you can have the rules and a full force for other game systems >> But lets not turn this into a pricerage thread, isnt that time of year yet

thats part of the problem with the "GW hobby" these days, is that the "bare essentials" to play the game are much steeper than the "bare essentials" for another game system out there. I'm not trying to turn this thread into one of those, but the topic at hand fits this as one of the many "worst things" about GW

The worst thing are the prices, followed by the prices. There are also prices, and lastly the prices.

Edit: Also the prices

15mm sci-fi is pretty awesome:
Dark Ages:

A desert town in Malifaux:

Paper terrain that can look better than Realm of Battle boards?

I think this terrain is made from inexpensive laser cut wood that you assemble and paint:

Simple & effective drop cloths and area terrain:

We simply don't need GW. With every price increase and removal of services offered from their hobby centres (like good terrain), the value proposition gets worse and worse. There's a huge world of wargaming out there.

Mr Mugguffins wrote:
When the hell did these god damned citadel gaming boards become standard?

When store owners discovered that it's really hard to break or damage them, that's when. Foam boards have superior qualities to the GW ones, namely more flexible terrain placement as well as decreased cost but they are also damaged and destroyed far more easily by nomal use than the hard plastic 2'x2' RoB boards. I don't know of too many store owners who want to spend a lot of time on board maintenance.

the huge unbalanced nature in favour of the space marines

every time i go to my flgs every single army there is space marine, i mean WTF is the point of the whole 40k universe if all anyone will play is f###ing space marines?!

there is little balance to the gaming anymore and factions arent represented as they should be, IG are still just cadians or catachan, not many people play smaller obscure chapters of space marines and if a new set of vehicles are released, it belongs to the armies that really dont need any more firepower.

@FrozenWastes: What line is that 15mm sci-fi system?

stormwell wrote:

Mr Mugguffins wrote:I primarily play in GW's due to them being more common about where I live than flgs. Here's the thing that drives me mad though.

Have you checked to see if theres any wargames clubs where you are?

Ironically enough GW will even help you in said search.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/storelocator/search.jsp

Just tick the gaming clubs box.

12thRonin wrote:
@FrozenWastes: What line is that 15mm sci-fi system?

The rules are Guntz15mm http://www.gruntz.biz - They're about to release their 1.1 revised version in both PDF and print. The current 1.0 version is PDF only. Take Warmachine, cut out the warcaster, the spells, the special abilities and focus on synergy and combos and then convert it for sci-fi and add a decent unit and vehicle builder system and you won't have the wrong idea. I believe it also has overwatch fire, alternating activations and a few other optional rules. Solid game.

The blue guys appear to be Khurasan 15mm High-Tech Humans in Assisted Power Armour TTC-1004 http://khurasanminiatures.tripod.com/15mmscifi-infantry.html <-- scroll down about a quarter of the way.

The yellow power lifter and the androids, I don't know. I'd recommend emailing the guy who publishes Gruntz and ask him as it was his demo gaming table at Salute 2012. I'm sure there's a contact info page somewhere on gruntz.biz.

Probably my favorite thing about getting outside of "The Games Workshop Hobby" is that you start running into companies that make miniatures and other companies that make rules. That way the miniatures have to sell on their own merit and the rules have to sell on their own merit. Though some of the historical manufacturers are starting to come out with their own rules and branding their miniatures with their rules name on the packages. Like Warlord Games selling ancients with "Hail Caesar" on the package while they also sell a set of rules called Hail Caesar. Generally that's as far as it goes in Historicals outside of Flames of War.

Awesome pics of terrain there Frozenwastes..

The funny thing is that none of those boards is particularly difficult to make. They just take a little imagination and I think with practice they can be achieved by anyone. I don't even think they take that much more effort, I've made some snow covered Eastern-front themed boards for Flames of War and it was perhaps 2-3 hours work in all. And like some of those photos above show, the results speak for themselves.

I don't think the plastic table top is the worst things. I think is indicative of GW today though. They make the tables and all the terrain as kits and fill their shops with it. They are ever more taking the hobbying out of the hobby and making tabletops homogeneous across their stores.

But that isn't the worst thing about GW today. Sorry to bring up the obvious, but the worst is Finecast. That was the day they took a perfectly good casting material off the shelves and replaced it with a poorer substitute just to save manufacturing costs and then still tried to feed us a line about how much better it was to raise the prices. For all their faults at least you have to say that GW have pushed quality, their plastic kits just keep getting better. But the Finecast, no, that's when they dispensed with quality for profit. That is a significant change for the worse IMO.

They kinda did it at least once before Finecast, though. Remember that "while stocks last" blastscape terrain, or whatever it was called? Came out around the time Planetstrike did I think. They posted pics on the website of what must have been painted resin masters that looked just cool as hell, but what you actually got was cheap-ass vac-formed crap that almost literally wasn't even the same product...the actual pieces were all blobby and had gak for detail in comparison, and the pieces were also really thin and easy to damage. $25 price tag IIRC. There was such a backlash over it they quickly took the old pics down and put up new ones to advertise the set on the website, to show you the actual product (maybe that was the one and only time GW was afraid of an actual lawsuit, lmao)...I remember it was a big deal back then.

I've also noticed a lack of quality in their printed products, too, like my fething $80 40k rulebook (which I really ought to have returned and gotten my money back for before even cracking the plastic, but oh well). There's at least a dozen pages in the thing that just look like garbage...it mainly affects the army showcases towards the back, all the same 'Eavy Metal models we've seen countless times before, but entire pages are just "fuzzy"...kinda like you're looking at them cross-eyed I'd say. I'm not sure what that particular defect is called or what causes it, but even though those pages are useless and I've seen it all before, I was still kinda mad that a book I paid that much for looked like that.

Sidstyler,

If your rulebook is as you describe then you can still exchange it for a good one. My rulebook (the basic edition) doesn't have the problem you describe at all. I know if I saw what you describe I'd exchange it. Repeat pictures are one thing but they should fix the quality problem.

For me the attraction of the RoBB is purely storage/durabillity/portabillity! I hate the price hate the hills and hate the skulls but even though I have plenty of storage space at home I live in a rural location and few of my friends (living in the city) drive/own a car so we usually play at there places where often storage is at a premium. MDF boards are all well and good but they are much heavier/awkward and bulkier than the RoBB!

 Pacific wrote:
Awesome pics of terrain there Frozenwastes..

The funny thing is that none of those boards is particularly difficult to make. They just take a little imagination and I think with practice they can be achieved by anyone. I don't even think they take that much more effort, I've made some snow covered Eastern-front themed boards for Flames of War and it was perhaps 2-3 hours work in all. And like some of those photos above show, the results speak for themselves.

Some of them do have some nice elements. many of them are made from commercial produts NOT scratch built and arent "cheap".

The cardboard stuff is not appealing at all really and doesnt look better than a ROBB imho. I wouldnt pay the money for a ROBB myself, but neither would I buy that snap fit printed cardoboard stuff...

My biggest issue is the lack of balance due to lack of codex updates. I was probably spoilt by starting just before 3e dropped. The massive change in rules meant a new codex was being released nearly every other month.

Can't understand why there are still 4e versions for some armies.....

I have no issue with GW. I have issue with the GW haters that make issue with me having no issue. Move along.

CT GAMER wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Awesome pics of terrain there Frozenwastes..

The funny thing is that none of those boards is particularly difficult to make. They just take a little imagination and I think with practice they can be achieved by anyone. I don't even think they take that much more effort, I've made some snow covered Eastern-front themed boards for Flames of War and it was perhaps 2-3 hours work in all. And like some of those photos above show, the results speak for themselves.

Some of them do have some nice elements. many of them are made from commercial produts NOT scratch built and arent "cheap".

The cardboard stuff is not appealing at all really and doesnt look better than a ROBB imho. I wouldnt pay the money for a ROBB myself, but neither would I buy that snap fit printed cardoboard stuff...

(above line is CT Gamer, couldn't get the quotes to work properly!)

Yes right. I suppose the cardboard terrain thing can be very varied in terms of quality. I've seen some pretty awesome examples, and for some games (such as D&D derivatives, where a constant update of new terrain is needed) it can work really well.

I'm not saying the Realm of Battle board is a complete waste of time. Found this good example of one being used here for instance:


But look closely at that board, and what really makes it? Essentially, it's a modular, textured playing surface. But, it still needs flock, painting and other terrain for it to be able to function effectively as a wargaming board. Alternatively you could go to any DIY store, and buy a piece of MDF for less than £20, and some plaster/foamboard to make the undulated surface and the results would be almost indistinguishable.

I guess in conclusion I'm saying that there is nothing at all with the ROB board being on sale (typing that, I see GW got clever with the acronym.. ) and having that as an option, but that it's presence, as well as pre-made terrain, seems to have acted to completely ostracised the rest of the terrain building hobby. It's definitely one of the things missing from WD these days I feel. No doubt a lot of the antagonism towards the Realm of Battle Board is because of that and what it represents, which is just the change to a complete focus on $, rather than a real criticism of the product itself.

Byte wrote:I have no issue with GW. I have issue with the GW haters that make issue with me having no issue. Move along.

I don't think that really adds anything to the discussion.. and you know it's going to get someone coming down it like a bag of spuds and cause an argument, so why write it?

Not sure I agree with all of that Pacific but I do agree the RoB board does work as a product. It is more robust than anything else I can think of, one of the reasons that GW has them for most of the tables at WW I would guess. The big custom tables they have set up for instance were well worn and damaged when I went there, foam/plaster/filler/MDF all chipped and gouged. A shame to see some iconic tables so abused but that's gaming I suppose. The RoB ones all seemed in good condition in-spite of heavy use.

I'm not fan of Rob but suspect that if they were half the price there would be no griping whatsoever.

The worst things;

For me it has to be the negativity that permeates throughout the hobby/Dakka. Allot of people want to piss on your chips because you like this or don't play that; it gets a bit boring after a while. I put this down to allot of young hobbiests (I was the same as a teen I'm sure ) though there's no shortage of adults that act the same. Peoples internet personalities don't help but I'm not sure that is hobby related? Curiously every Dakkanaut I have met hasn't been negative but that tends to be playing so it could just be a online/meatlife thing.

Just remembered another one; born again gamers. These are the chaps who advise that there is a life outside of GW as if it is a new revelation sent to them by God/Rick Priestley and they have opened their bleary eyes to a new dawn as if there hasn't been people other than GW making games for the last half a century or more. It's all terribly condescending and tends to speak more of their previous blinkered fanboyism that they now berate others for because they don't play WM/Infinity/KoW/whatever. These fellers should just let people get on with what they want to do and stop banging on about seeing the light like some half baked preacher.

 notprop wrote:

Just remembered another one; born again gamers. These are the chaps who advise that there is a life outside of GW as if it is a new revelation sent to them by God/Rick Priestley and they have opened their bleary eyes to a new dawn as if there hasn't been people other than GW making games for the last half a century or more. It's all terribly condescending and tends to speak more of their previous blinkered fanboyism that they now berate others for because they don't play WM/Infinity/KoW/whatever. These fellers should just let people get on with what they want to do and stop banging on about seeing the light like some half baked preacher.

People get excited about what they like, so they talk about it.

Also bear in mind, that GW has been aggressively recruiting customers through their demo sales process and through independant stockists for quite some time now. Many people really do only know of GW and don't know about any other miniature companies or games.

I think GW's current business plan is good for the industry and hobby as a whole. They know their customers generally quit within a couple of years, but thanks to them, some life long gamers get exposed to miniature gaming for the first time. They often go on to other games and miniatures after they move on from GW.

Part of this healthy diversification away from GW's near monopoly in the 1990s is people letting others know what's out there and that if they're unhappy about something, they really do have options. Then when the next 10%+ price increase comes next June, they can start considering whether or not they really are getting value for their money and whether or not they want to pay more for less miniatures when things like Imperial Guard plastics get reduced from 20 per box down to 10. Or when Ork Boys go from 16 down to 10. Or when the 16 and 20 soldier WFB regiment boxes get rereleased as 10 figure boxes.

The OP in this thread was largely about the decline of the hobby experience in the GW stores. Instead of having all sorts of great gaming space with custom quality terrain, they have RoB tables. Free painting has gone away and many stores have had their staff and operating hours slashed. So people who used to game there regularly now are getting worse value for their money in terms of services offered.

It's okay to be like the majority of GW's customers who stop buying their products. If you're a life long gamer, finding an alternative is okay too. Someone telling you that is not some hokey tent revival preacher talking about seeing the light. It's about making smart choices with your hobby budget. The Games Workshop Hobby™ might be on the decline, but miniature war gaming has never been better. More companies, more miniatures, more rules, more options. Those aren't bad things.

Speaking of condescending.....thanks for that but you appear to have missed the point.

Mine is that it has always been such, there are lots of options and has been for a long time (so before I started 20 odd years ago). Pretending that we are in some golden age of gaming is daft and that we all need to open our eyes is the proverbial cherry on top. There has always been dozens/hundreds of systems/miniature ranges available, it just it is only now that these fools realise it. So The born again hobbiests either show that they were blinkered/ignorant before and/or try to bully people to their way of thinking. It really sucks the fun out of an interesting hobby when in fact the only real difference between now and 20+ years ago is that GW is bigger and the ability to create professional looking products is within the reach of everyone thanks to the prevelence of computers and software.

Part of the RoBB deal is the portability.

The rest of our terrain (made of foam board, wood, etc..) usually have so much structural support that they aren't really as compact when folded.

That said, I don't like the RoBB because the slopes wreak havoc on me placing top-heavy metal miniatures on small bases.

 notprop wrote:
Speaking of condescending.....thanks for that but you appear to have missed the point.

No. Your point was just wrong. There are lots of GW customers who don't know other companies or products exist. My first miniatures might have been early Ral Parthas, but many, many people only know of GW in terms of miniature markers because it's all they've been exposed to.

Mine is that it has always been such, there are lots of options and has been for a long time (so before I started 20 odd years ago). Pretending that we are in some golden age of gaming is daft and that we all need to open our eyes is the proverbial cherry on top. There has always been dozens/hundreds of systems/miniature ranges available, it just it is only now that these fools realise it.

Being exposed to only one company's marketing and products doesn't make anyone a fool. It makes them a customer of that company. Then when they find out that there are options, they get really, really happy about it.

And yes, we really are in a golden age. Before you found out about games and miniatures through local shops and maybe some magazines. You'd often have to order things sight unseen or pay to have a catalogue with photographs sent to you in the mail. Now I can go on the website of a tiny producer in the former Soviet Union and get an amazing miniature mailed to me with a few mouse clicks. I hear about new products every day hear on Dakka Dakka, gaming news sights like TGN, wargaming blogs, and elsewhere.

The internet has done more to connect miniature makers with buyers than anything else. Even if the number of miniature producers hasn't increased, the availability of their lines has increased dramatically thanks to the internet.

... and the ability to create professional looking products is within the reach of everyone thanks to the prevelence of computers and software.

And this is the second game changer. No longer are small press rules sets type-written affairs printed on a home computer. No longer are miniature photographs low quality and hard to see. The barriers lowered by technology has done wonders for allowing people into the market.

try to bully people to their way of thinking.

You're the one who's come into this thread to take a shot at people who disagree with you. You carried out a blanket personal attack calling people blinkered, fools, ex-fanboys, etc., comparing them to annoying religious preachers (born again gamers).

Want to see the bullying, look in a mirror.

.

The Internet has changed things a lot for the better. I remember having to go to wargames shows just to see the latest releases from the small manufacturers. It was always great to see new stuff, but what a bind! If you wanted something between events you'd have to send an order through the post, a real hassle getting stuff from abroad. The Internet means manufacturers can show off their stuff far more easily to a wider number of people with lovely photos and make them dead easy to buy. This is great In the UK where the majority of gaming shops are actually GW stores.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Speaking of condescending.....thanks for that but you appear to have missed the point.

No. Your point was just wrong. There are lots of GW customers who don't know other companies or products exist. My first miniatures might have been early Ral Parthas, but many, many people only know of GW in terms of miniature markers because it's all they've been exposed to.

Mine is that it has always been such, there are lots of options and has been for a long time (so before I started 20 odd years ago). Pretending that we are in some golden age of gaming is daft and that we all need to open our eyes is the proverbial cherry on top. There has always been dozens/hundreds of systems/miniature ranges available, it just it is only now that these fools realise it.

Being exposed to only one company's marketing and products doesn't make anyone a fool. It makes them a customer of that company. Then when they find out that there are options, they get really, really happy about it.

And yes, we really are in a golden age. Before you found out about games and miniatures through local shops and maybe some magazines. You'd often have to order things sight unseen or pay to have a catalogue with photographs sent to you in the mail. Now I can go on the website of a tiny producer in the former Soviet Union and get an amazing miniature mailed to me with a few mouse clicks. I hear about new products every day hear on Dakka Dakka, gaming news sights like TGN, wargaming blogs, and elsewhere.

The internet has done more to connect miniature makers with buyers than anything else. Even if the number of miniature producers hasn't increased, the availability of their lines has increased dramatically thanks to the internet.

... and the ability to create professional looking products is within the reach of everyone thanks to the prevelence of computers and software.

And this is the second game changer. No longer are small press rules sets type-written affairs printed on a home computer. No longer are miniature photographs low quality and hard to see. The barriers lowered by technology has done wonders for allowing people into the market.

try to bully people to their way of thinking.

You're the one who's come into this thread to take a shot at people who disagree with you. You carried out a blanket personal attack calling people blinkered, fools, ex-fanboys, etc., comparing them to annoying religious preachers (born again gamers).

Want to see the bullying, look in a mirror.

.

So was that a generalisation or a personal attack, surely it can't be both?

Sorry mate my intent was not to upset you. A bit near the mark clearly.

Nothing in my posts are telling anyone what to do, I merely pointed out that some people get a bit boring About something that is appearant to anyone that is exposed to the internet and of a mind to look i.e. everyone. So basically a comment on something I don't like about the hobby, sort of the point of the thread no?

Oh and put your toys back in the pram they're messing the place up.

 notprop wrote:
Not sure I agree with all of that Pacific but I do agree the RoB board does work as a product. It is more robust than anything else I can think of, one of the reasons that GW has them for most of the tables at WW I would guess. The big custom tables they have set up for instance were well worn and damaged when I went there, foam/plaster/filler/MDF all chipped and gouged. A shame to see some iconic tables so abused but that's gaming I suppose. The RoB ones all seemed in good condition in-spite of heavy use.

I'm not fan of Rob but suspect that if they were half the price there would be no griping whatsoever.

Yes I think you're probably right there!

The worst things;

For me it has to be the negativity that permeates throughout the hobby/Dakka. Allot of people want to piss on your chips because you like this or don't play that; it gets a bit boring after a while. I put this down to allot of young hobbiests (I was the same as a teen I'm sure ) though there's no shortage of adults that act the same. Peoples internet personalities don't help but I'm not sure that is hobby related? Curiously every Dakkanaut I have met hasn't been negative but that tends to be playing so it could just be a online/meatlife thing.

Just remembered another one; born again gamers. These are the chaps who advise that there is a life outside of GW as if it is a new revelation sent to them by God/Rick Priestley and they have opened their bleary eyes to a new dawn as if there hasn't been people other than GW making games for the last half a century or more. It's all terribly condescending and tends to speak more of their previous blinkered fanboyism that they now berate others for because they don't play WM/Infinity/KoW/whatever. These fellers should just let people get on with what they want to do and stop banging on about seeing the light like some half baked preacher.

I agree with you mate, it's not a nice thing at all, but to an extent I think you have to think that the ratio of these posts is related to the forum/public atmosphere surrounding that company and those releases. At present that seems to be centred mostly around the GW discussions, I think simply based on their larger demographic, although other companies are not immune (the bigger Mantic threads seem to end up with a lot of red moderator ink for instance)

I also think there is a massive difference between saying 'what rubbish lol, company X suck' or 'uz are all haterz', and actually trying to write something constructive, which is something I always try to do whatever my opinion might be. Of course it's a wonderful thing celebrating new releases, and talking about them with like minded individuals, but at the same time we are all (well, most ) intelligent human beings here - taking GW as an example, if something like the Razorgore is released, while some people might indeed like it (and express their opinion as such) the common consensus was that it did deserve to get a slating. On the other hand, something like the Dark Eldar range release got almost universal praise when it hit the shelves. I can't remember much negativity about it all, other than perhaps a very fringe minority, and even then it was more of a 'it's not my thing' comment, rather than the 'what rubbish lol'.

By their very nature some actions that a company might make will swing that 'atmosphere' of the community against them. I hope I'm not being unbiased or unreasonably subjective here by stating that GW's price rises and poor quality control of Finecast (to give possibly the two biggest 'anger inducers') were generally not popular with a majority of the user base. How much those issues bothered you would vary in each case, but that a summary of those cases would end with a net negative to customer perceptions is undeniable. That, combined with some other issues, meant that I think (last summer in particular) the forum became a pretty unpleasant place. The stuff that GW was getting right - the release of the new WFB, some of the new monster kits, which would normally have been abuzz with positive feedback, were instead polluted from the negative backwash of those other threads.
And I should note such a thing is not exclusive to GW - when Mantic released Warpath for instance, a big negative point for some people was its likeness to their fantasy line, and also the supposed lack of originality. Such a negative perception spread into threads which might otherwise have been positive, such as their kickstarter thread for instance.
So while I agree that the negativity can be tiresome, especially if it is something that doesn't concern you (I don't know.. perhaps you only buy Kings of War, only plastics, or buy 2nd hand from ebay for instance), at the same time there is no smoke without fire. Yes, some like to grumble about everything, but I think the vast majority of people are pretty reasonable, even with the internet effect on forums. And if something pisses you off, and its something you have spent a lot of time with, of course you are going to want to have a moan about it. I think even if you don't agree with that persons sentiments, at least its possible to see it from there point of view.

I also think that for whatever reason, some posters seem to polarize towards one extreme viewpoint, almost like some bizarre reflection of party politics. Whether it's an attempt to get a voice heard amongst the myriad of other posts, but viewpoints can range from the aggressively vitriolic, to the unashamedly apologetic. One person makes a post on one side of the spectrum, and then that seems to spark off a similarly polarized viewpoint - hence why I wasn't too keen on Byte making that post above

I know what you mean about the later point though, and while I may have a personal preference about what game system and models are better/worse, I would never presume to try and rain on someones parade if they are enjoying something. At the same time though, I think it's only fair to express disappointment with something if it doesn't quite hit the mark. If that makes sense?

Ultimately I think we are all on the same 'side' if that makes sense, and there is little to be gained by short-sighted comments and mindless praise of a product because of the company logo that it carries. In the same breath, each product I think should be judged on its own merits, and not hated because it carries the GW logo, the Mantic logo, Warmachine or anything else! Although I realise that is something in human nature, and hey football hooliganism would be pretty boring if it didn't exist

So anyway, what point was I trying to make?! Yes, human nature is a funny thing, we are all different, whatever floats your boat etc.

 notprop wrote:
About something that is appearant to anyone that is exposed to the internet and of a mind to look i.e. everyone.

This is where you've been consistently and persistently wrong. The reason people appear to have not known about other manufacturers and then are pleasantly surprised when they find out about them is because they did not know about other manufacturers and are pleasantly surprised when they find out about them. GW has been very, very careful from the moment they switched their stores from being general game stores (for example, they were the original importers of Dungeons & Dragons to the UK) to only selling their own products to stop mentioning any other players in the hobby. They even renamed the hobby in their publications from miniatures wargaming to The Games Workshop Hobby™.

Oh and put your toys back in the pram they're messing the place up.

I've spoiler tagged the images I've posted above, if that's what you're talking about. But again, what's with the personal attacks like implying I'm childish (pram)? Seriously, your whole approach to this thread has been to attack those participating in it. It's really not that clever to see a thread about negative things and then pop in to complain about complaining and attack those offering alternatives. Please stop doing that and actually try to discuss things.

Do you have anything substantive to say about my points. Here's a summary if it helps:

- People are happy about their new product choices after getting burned out with GW and want to share it. Understandable, even though some levels of enthusiasm can be annoying
- Those who were recruited by GW may indeed only know about GW until they start looking elsewhere. So naturally, they're going to come across as if the existence of other options is indeed a new thing.
- The internet has allowed greater levels of communication between miniature wargaming related sellers and their customers than ever before. It's a huge improvement over the old days of mail order, catalogues and the like. This connects with people who start out just knowing about GW finding out about new options.
- Combined with the barriers of entry into the market place being lowered by technology, there are now more hobby related retailers that can get in contact with a greater number of customers than ever before. These two facts combine to create was is a "golden age" in miniature wargaming, even while GW's customer base shrinks as price rises increase faster than their relatively flat revenue.
- Services offered by GW owned hobby centres have been cut. Hours of operation cut. Numbers of staff cut. Terrain available, standardized and minimized. Playing space minimized in areas where large stores are replaced by small one person operations. Painting tables for general hobby use have been cut.

No wonder more and more people are turning to alternatives. It's not out of religious fervor or zealotry. It's just logical. And it's also logical to be excited about the things one enjoys. If you're not (as some of those in this thread have expressed), maybe it is a smart move to widen one's options when it comes to the hobby of miniature wargaming. Seems like a pretty reasonable response to the increasing number of issues people have with GW.

.

And there was me thinking that Canadians understood the Queens English better than their southern neighbours. You have go off on a tangent and seem to be stuck there.

Have a look.at Pacifics post just before your last rant, he seems to have grasped the (I thought very clear) point I had made which has thus far proved beyond you. Indeed you seem to be going out of your way to prove my point by listing out the wherefores and whys of GW when that is not at issue. Play what you like IMHO just dont be getting all up in people's grills about it.

Oh and zealotry is only logical to extremists, normal people think it's a bit OTT. Now you'll probably take that to mean I think you're not normal or something like that and to be honest i am starting to think along those lines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and services being cut, theres been a global recession on for the last few years - why is this suprising. Not getting free glue or whatever isn't cause for complaint.

Keep calm and carry on gaming. Stiff upper lip and all that.

I tried to explain to you why people who annoy you by coming off as if they have made some new discovery are doing so. You haven't dealt with a single thing I said. You just keep piling on the attacks instead of discussing things.

Again, do you have anything to say about the points I've made, or will it just be more of the same?

Oh and services being cut, theres been a global recession on for the last few years - why is this suprising. Not getting free glue or whatever isn't cause for complaint.

Other, more intelligent companies, have realized that when times are tough, you work harder for the customer's money, not offer less for more money.

And since GW's target audience is children, I think it's also likely that people quit as they mature. So maybe GW figured out that since they'll lose them as customers anyway, they may as well provide less of a service and cut some corners.

In the UK, hasn't wargaming traditionally been an adult hobby? Is it possible that most of the issues people have with GW is a sign of them slowly outgrowing it since their products are aimed at the under 18 crowd?

 frozenwastes wrote:
Really? You're now attacking my reading comprehension? Just. Wow. Where's a facepalm emoticon when you need one?

Um, one from the bottom - left column?

 frozenwastes wrote:
Other, more intelligent companies, have realized that when times are tough, you work harder for the customer's money, not offer less for more money.

And, again, you're completely missing Notprop's point.

If you feel that GW is too expensive or that you don't like their practices then vote with your wallet but bitching about it on Dakka is just a waste of everyone's time (especially the select few that feel the need to dive into any GW thread just to whine).

You responded to that by bitching about GW.

I think that a comment about reading comprehension wasn't out of line. (there it is!)

 frozenwastes wrote:
The reason people appear to have not known about other manufacturers and then are pleasantly surprised when they find out about them is because they did not know about other manufacturers

 frozenwastes wrote:
I tried to explain to you why people who annoy you by coming off as if they have made some new discovery are doing so. You haven't dealt with a single thing I said.

Except you haven't. GW don't mention other companies products. That's pretty common you know? Do Privateer Press talk about other companies products or games in their publications?

The internet makes it incredibly easy to find out about other games. Just go looking for a 40K forum or news site and you'll loads of forums that discuss a whole range of games (GW exclusive sites are relatively rate) Also, outside of the UK independent game stores outnumber GW stores.

So your suggestion that these people had zero idea that there were non-GW games out there is ridiculous and demonstratably false when we see it from Dakka members that have been around for years. They were completely aware that there were other games they just chose not to play them.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

If you feel that GW is too expensive or that you don't like their practices then vote with your wallet but bitching about it on Dakka is just a waste of everyone's time (especially the select few that feel the need to dive into any GW thread just to whine).

You responded to that by bitching about GW.

Please reread the title of this thread.

Did you come here for hugs and puppies?

For those who find their particular worst thing about the GW hobby to be no longer tolerable, their hobby doesn't have to end there. There's a huge range of options waiting for them. This is a very, very appropriate place to talk about that.

I also edited my previous post as I think insulting someone's reading comprehension and tying it to their nationality is boorish enough not to be quoted.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

So your suggestion that these people had zero idea that there were non-GW games out there is ridiculous and demonstratably false when we see it from Dakka members that have been around for years. They were completely aware that there were other games they just chose not to play them.

We have a tendency to view our experience as universal. DakkaDakka members likely do not make up anywhere near a good representation of GW's customers. The majority of their customers are likely 12-18 years of age, find out about miniature gaming through a GW store and only find out about other companies when they look for things related to their new hobby. There's a large minority who do indeed find out about GW in the larger context of an independent retailer or an online site with lots of info, but there's still an awful lot of people who enter via GW and thus express a sense of newness when talking about alternatives.

What I'm more interested in right now is the idea that maybe the issues described in this thread are more of a result of GW's intentionally targeting teenagers and tweens. I wonder how many people are having issues with GW because they are rubbing up against the fact that the products they buy are targeted at children.

Take the prices, for example. If GW targets tweens and expects them to quit within a couple of years, then they'll likely only experience a single price increase. Not the year over year grind of a lifer who keeps buying regardless.

The realm of Battle boards standardize things a bit and if you're 13, you may not see the negative impact of one of those with sparse terrain on your gaming.

News and rumours lockdown? Perhaps finding out about stuff through White Dwarf works really well for the tween market.

The overdoing it of skulls that the OP mentioned might appeal to a more adolescent demeanor.

The lack of game balance probably doesn't matter as much if your customers are likely to quit before they get a full sized army together. And then there's Jervis saying back in 2008 that the majority of their customers don't play their games and that he wanted the new Codex layout to make sense to his 12 year old son.
.
So I think my new reply to "The worst thing about the GW hobby these days" is that it is targeted at children when GW's customer base used to be adults. There are adults who still play, but there are also 30 and 40 year old men obsessed with My Little Pony. *shrugs*

When the white knights roll in to a thread and start attacking those who criticize GW, I often wonder if they know that GW designs their stuff for a demographic that they are no longer part of.
.

Mate, I included a little bit of banter and you seem to have gone of the deep end. My apologies for that but nonetheless you really seem to have missed the point. I'm pleased Scott-S6 and Pacific see the point I made, perhaps if you stepped back from the keyboard and took a deep breath you might see that rather than getting in a sweat.

Incidentally nice PM, you appear to have gone from missing the point to mere pointlessness. If that's how you try to convince/goad people I can see why you have trouble addressing the matter at hand.

I'll leave this here so you can copy it for next time you need one.

Why not all 3. I have a table painted like an ocean for water games like Dragon wars, Dystopian wars, etc.

Throw a GF9 grass mat and you can setup for fantasy, flames of war, etc.

Throw the RoBB on top if you want my dynamic terrain. I always unbalance terrain anyway to mess with opponents. In both fantasy, and 40K terrain is now rolled for.

So first step is scrape all the terrain to one side. Then roll to see what goes where, and what gets put under the table.

Drives those people nutz who expect a certain amount of terrain on their side. However on the downside ends with some weird strategic placing of terrain pieces...

I have 2X sets of the RoBG set and a load of GW scenery packs, no regrets whatsoever.
Im just gonna be a petty gakker at this stage and say:
"Hey whatever works for you". L:eave the rest of us to it, thanks.

Oh good. Yet another 'haters gonna hate' image. What a wonderful and compelling argument. That sure is a "get out of making a coherent and logical argument whilst simultaneously ignoring any and all criticism, valid or otherwise" card, isn't it?

Who knew debating and having arguments was so damned easy! Haven't got time to actually rebut someone's points? Just post a tired-as-feth picture, and call it a day! Argument won!

I don't like all the whining about everything all the time either (although some complaining is perfectly justified), but I would, for example, like to be able to model my 40K/WHF miniature on a nice Micro Art base without the local GW store staff throwing a potential hissyfit when I dare take it out of the bag inside the store.

I haven't tried it yet, but I just know the current manager will make it an issue.

It's the little things like that which have crept along through the years since I started the hobby that definitely haven't made it better, and I indeed consider this GW's fault. Of course they want to make money and they are a business etc, but there are so many ways to go about it.

Good thing there are plenty of other options besides the GW store around here.

 TBD wrote:
but I would, for example, like to be able to model my 40K/WHF miniature on a nice Micro Art base without the local GW store staff throwing a potential hissyfit when I dare take it out of the bag inside the store.

Then don't tell them./ If they're just resin bases, and they ask how you did them, just tell them you made them yourself. They'll ooh and aah over the bases, and you can get on with playing. If they ask why the bottom is filled in and not a slotta base, just tell them you filled it in for stability.

Most staff won't even go that far with questioning.

 TBD wrote:
I don't like all the whining about everything all the time either (although some complaining is perfectly justified), but I would, for example, like to be able to model my 40K/WHF miniature on a nice Micro Art base without the local GW store staff throwing a potential hissyfit when I dare take it out of the bag inside the store.

I haven't tried it yet, but I just know the current manager will make it an issue.

As Loki says, just don't tell them. If they say it's from another manufacturer, just deny it and say it's some conversion work yourself. There is no way for him to prove otherwise.

I used to use an IG army that was comprised of at least about 50% non-GW stuff. Mostly just Pig Iron heads and the like, but also some complete Copplestone Castings miniatures that resembled older Necrons. The previous manager was pretty down to earth, he knew full well they weren't GW models but he turned a blind eye as I used to spend a fair amount of money in the store. The point was I didn't make an issue of it, and all of the stuff was painted so it was impossible for anyone (other than a real officianado ) to pinpoint that they weren't OOP GW minis.

Does basing really count as part of the figure then? That's one step away from saying you should use GW sand on your figure bases, IMO.

GW don't make scenic bases so why would they care?

I do use GW sand, I admit it and i really like the colour variation in it. I bought a bag about 15 years ago and it's still going strong. There got that one off my chest, now how to explain the GW PVA I have.....

 notprop wrote:
GW don't make scenic bases so why would they care?

They want to sell you this:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440312a&prodId=prod1570025

And these:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat470007a&prodId=prod1400002a

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat470007a&prodId=prod1400001a

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat470007a&prodId=prod1390050a

 Pacific wrote:

 TBD wrote:
I don't like all the whining about everything all the time either (although some complaining is perfectly justified), but I would, for example, like to be able to model my 40K/WHF miniature on a nice Micro Art base without the local GW store staff throwing a potential hissyfit when I dare take it out of the bag inside the store.

I haven't tried it yet, but I just know the current manager will make it an issue.

As Loki says, just don't tell them. If they say it's from another manufacturer, just deny it and say it's some conversion work yourself. There is no way for him to prove otherwise.

I used to use an IG army that was comprised of at least about 50% non-GW stuff. Mostly just Pig Iron heads and the like, but also some complete Copplestone Castings miniatures that resembled older Necrons. The previous manager was pretty down to earth, he knew full well they weren't GW models but he turned a blind eye as I used to spend a fair amount of money in the store. The point was I didn't make an issue of it, and all of the stuff was painted so it was impossible for anyone (other than a real officianado ) to pinpoint that they weren't OOP GW minis.

I openly use the Pig Iron heads in my GW. I still have to buy the guardsmen to use them, I just want my guard to look different. The heads are unlike anything they make, so I don't see the problem.

I openly use the Pig Iron heads in my GW. I still have to buy the guardsmen to use them, I just want my guard to look different. The heads are unlike anything they make, so I don't see the problem.

Again this line of posting has been talked before. It really depends at this moment on the GW manager at the GW store that is within your region.

I know that one GW manager in my area that would not allow those models in his store because it uses 3rd party product. I know this because I have been asked first hand about my scratch built models if I used other than GW parts.

Sooner or later as stated previously I believe that all of the GW stores will start cracking down on 3rd party product on people's models and not allow them in their stores.

And that still comes down to don't tell them. If they ask, they're scratch built with GW products and green stuff. If he happens to find something similar on the web, hey, what a coincidence.

 -Loki- wrote:
And that still comes down to don't tell them. If they ask, they're scratch built with GW products and green stuff. If he happens to find something similar on the web, hey, what a coincidence.

You would have to look REALLY hard, seeing as I have GW ones that look similar AND I mix the unit with complete GW models.

I'm with the "don't tell them" brigade.

What they don't know won't ruin their sanctified HHHobby dream.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm with the "don't tell them" brigade.

What they don't know won't ruin their sanctified HHHobby dream.

I thought miniatures at GW stores and tourneys had to be 50% GW, last time I checked a head isnt 50%, of course I may be wrong, either way that manager sounds like a donkey cave.

I'm with the "don't tell them" crowd. There is a guy at our local with his pre heresy Thousand Sons army (you will know him as regular Dakkanaut Proiteus). For the latest Throne of skulls gw tournament he actually emailed GW if he could use his TS termies with the legs from micro art studio. Guess what GW's response was?

I'm still facepalming as to why exactly he asked them, all he had to do when questioned was lie, and thus the tournament was denied seeing the wonderful army in full due to the owner naively thinking GW would say yes for some reason.

Although I do think there may have been a problem at Warhammer World (although don't quote me on this!) in the past with a couple of the big events.

Specifically Tempus Fugitives (they've done some really cool, large scale narrative campaigns for both 40k and WFB that a lot of guys from the UK will probably be familiar with) had to move their events to Maelstrom Games rather than use the big hall at Warhammer World. I'm not entirely sure about it, but I did hear at the time that it may have been something to do with non-GW models in people's armies - something that used to happen a lot especially in the older Pre-Heresy events, and before the current range of FW stuff came out.

Why should you have to lie about how you created YOUR army to play a game of toy soldiers , in a particular shop?

Oh just because GW plc likes to pretend it sells its models to people who think the entire hobby is totaly and completley encapsulated by GW plcs 3 core games .
And that knowlwdge of the wider hobby 'poisons the minds' of thier 'vunerable demoghraphic' against the GW hobby tm.

So the creativity and skill of its customers has to be hidden from view or lied about.(Even extended to studio staff like George Delapena kult of speed 'conversions' ffs.)

So the worst thing about the GW hobby tm, is the insular view of the corperate managment.IMO.

Yeah i would lie if I was in a GW store and they asked me about some of my models. I've got assorted legs, arms, and heads mixed it, and if they got suspicious I would say I greenstuffed it. If they're going to pull a spanish inquisition on me and inspect every single model, I'd take my bussiness elsewhere or just play on a foldout table in the parking lot

My FLGS has just one of those boards on their 6 tables, I prefer to use other tables since that damn GW board makes my dice bounce too much.

I actually asked if it was ok that I used my scratch built buggies (they use model cars as base with heavy conversions) instead the official gw models. If I recall correctly I argumented the reason for using non gw models was because the official ones look crappy.

Every worker in our gw is completely cool with my buggies but I don't tell the people unless they ask about them.

What I even find odd is that when I didn't have enough trukks I proxyed my rhinos as trukks and the manager wasn't cool with that. He said he would throw me out the next time I proxy my rhinos as trukks.

To me..the WORST thing about the hobby is the vocal 10% or so "SYCOPHANTS" who blindly cheer about EVERYTHING GW. "This" is a business, "GW" is amazing, "IT'S NEVER BEEN BETTER". It seems like to me that when people have a huge amount of money or identify their entire personality around a hobby they have, they take every opportunity to dump on people with valid complaints.

I fail to understand why the hobby is so important to these people that nothing GW does is ever questioned. Corporate apologists in general bug me and GW worshippers are pretty bad because their entire argument is always "LOL business." If someone doesn't like it... you don't need to take every opportunity to crap all over them when NO ONE IS EVEN TALKING ABOUT THAT TOPIC.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Yeah i would lie if I was in a GW store and they asked me about some of my models. I've got assorted legs, arms, and heads mixed it, and if they got suspicious I would say I greenstuffed it. If they're going to pull a spanish inquisition on me and inspect every single model, I'd take my bussiness elsewhere or just play on a foldout table in the parking lot

HA theres an idea, theres a good bit of space outside the front of my local GW, tempted to head up with a foldout table and have a game of DW or malifaux or something

My local GW (along with all other GW's from what I understand) replaced all their tables with ROB's, which is a real shame as they had an awesome demo board with a chasm, river, bridges, ruins etc...

Now all their tables are just pretty soul-less, more or less completely flat (since the ROB hills haren't really much of a hill), with a few of the GW terrain kits scattered around.

The worst thing has to be the sudden influx of lingerie models with every new codex. I don't think I can stand many more of them crashing our game nights after their shoots. All the giggling and pouting and bouncing... It's getting to be too much.

Little kids who ask silly questions and follow you around. Really annoys me at times, the sheer OTT of some of them is unbelievable.

 Azza007 wrote:
Little kids who ask silly questions and follow you around. Really annoys me at times, the sheer OTT of some of them is unbelievable.

FTW, I hate the teenagers who are obviously intelligent but lack social skills (they need a father figure to put them inline and teach them what is acceptable and how to behave in public). I was in my FLGS, and was looking at an Old MOTF Boxed set for my Iron hands, this small, rotund and hygienically challenged boy proceeded to barrack me in his lispy and spittle laiden cadence about how crap Techmarines are. I'm a pretty laid back (middle-aged) guy, but I actually snapped at this kid, told him to STFU and leave me alone, I've been playing this crap since 2nd Edition and remember buying Rogue trader. His response was pretty funny "What is Rogue Trader?".

We have a ban at our local club of under 18's, because we Cuss alot and we drink alot of Alcohol. Their is a policy of "vetting" to ensure that the really socially challenged are not permitted to enter, we still have 1 or 2 strange members but on the whole most of us are pretty well balanced and do it for the social circle of a group of like minded individuals who enjoy it as hobby, but do not take it excess or obsess about it.

For me it's people who don't paint their miniatures. Or when you do see someone with a nicely painted army, they admit that someone painted it for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Silverthorne wrote:
The worst thing has to be the sudden influx of lingerie models with every new codex. I don't think I can stand many more of them crashing our game nights after their shoots. All the giggling and pouting and bouncing... It's getting to be too much.

Where do you game?

The worst things?

Minor: HW's odd manner about itself, CIA doesn't take some things as seriously.

Major: the wailing and crying about how the game sucks. Don't know about you, but if something sucks, I get rid of it.

I'm not going to whine and say price, so here it is.

Little Kids. I understand that the target audience is young kids, but there has to be some sort of compromise. My local GW, especially on the Sunday when it would be the under-16 nights, I was one of the older lot and i was playing with my friend. It was Eldar and BA (me) vs Vanilla and Vanilla, yup you guessed it. I think it was the 2nd turn, and my friend fired a couple of shots at this kids captain (12-13 y/o). I can't remember the weapon my friend fired but it was double the toughness of his captain, he rolled a save, he failed, we told him the captain was instant killed, and he reluctantly took it off the table. But the worst part of all he was crying, I mean come on, it was only AoBR captain, nothing special.

Some of the kids were alright, the rest were very annoying, buy hey ho, we have all been there.

 kanekaneo wrote:
But the worst part of all he was crying, I mean come on, it was only AoBR captain, nothing special.

Do you cry if special Characters are killed in battle? If so Kudos for the emotional connection to a fantasy world.

 mwnciboo wrote:

 kanekaneo wrote:
But the worst part of all he was crying, I mean come on, it was only AoBR captain, nothing special.

Do you cry if special Characters are killed in battle? If so Kudos for the emotional connection to a fantasy world.

If Dante and Mephiston die, I submit to the Black Rage and destroy my opponents army with my bare hands. But on a serious note, an AoBR captain, meh, they are very common and i enjoy killing them, whilst also never using them. No doubt we'll see a bunch of kids with their Dark Angel Comapny Master, or Chaos Lord, and they'll cry when Mephiston rips them from the inside out

The worst thing about the hobby?

Not enough chicks.

If you want to pick up chicks 40k is not the place.

Also IMHO I don't think it's entirely healthy to have both partners in a relationship into 40k, it borders onto Obsessive, I should imagine the round Dinner Table Discussions are pretty poor. "I see that GW have released a new model" "Indeed" etc.

I like having things my Wife doesn't get or enjoy, it gives me freedom, independence and a wider social circle just for me to enjoy. I don't like Jimmy Choo's or Christian Le bouttons, which my wife does and vice versa with 40k. I think a healthy relationship needs some degree of seperation.

 mwnciboo wrote:

 kanekaneo wrote:
But the worst part of all he was crying, I mean come on, it was only AoBR captain, nothing special.

Do you cry if special Characters are killed in battle? If so Kudos for the emotional connection to a fantasy world.

Was going to say, I would love to get that much into a game!

Mentioning significant others is another point. PDAs can be really annoying as well as bringing your little one with you and they keep crying.

If there were chicks Your wife probably would not let You out for a game unattended Like W: "where were You? "
You "oh, I was at the local gaming group and there was that blonde chick and we played 40K'"
W: "and why are You late for dinner?"
You: "well You know, we had a couple of games and it is 3-4 hours as usual, time passes when You do play 40K...."
W: "oh really? and who won?"

She was on top throughout... What are you shouting for dear?

 MisterMoon wrote:
For me it's people who don't paint their miniatures. Or when you do see someone with a nicely painted army, they admit that someone painted it for them.

What's wrong with that? At least it's painted, isn't that what all you guys want?

I just...what is this horsegak, seriously? Isn't that pretty much the general attitude in every one of those threads? "I'm sick of grey plastic, I want to play painted armies! I don't care if they're Golden Demon quality or the bare minimum of effort or whatever, I just want them painted!" So...someone with more money than time commissions someone to paint their army, giving you exactly what you wanted, and it's still not good enough?

If you had the choice of playing against an unpainted army or a commission painted army, which one would you pick and why?

I'd be hungry if it weren't for the people who want to have their armies painted by me...

 Sidstyler wrote:
If you had the choice of playing against an unpainted army or a commission painted army, which one would you pick and why?

Speaking personally I don't care who painted the army, so long as the person who owns it is not taking credit for work that is not their own. I'd rather see commission painted armies than primer or unpainted.

Loki wrote:

And that still comes down to don't tell them. If they ask, they're scratch built with GW products and green stuff. If he happens to find something similar on the web, hey, what a coincidence. I

It is not a question of not telling. It is a the active action that this GW manager is doing in my region. He is actively looking at games going on to see if the player is using GW product. And if he feels that it is not a scratch build then the models in question are not played in the store.

 MisterMoon wrote:
Or when you do see someone with a nicely painted army, they admit that someone painted it for them.

Does your nose ever block your view as you look down it at us?

The only time I don't like comission paint work is when the person paying for it can't assess quality and hires someone terrible and then brags about how good their army looks. We're all too polite to be honest and just say things like "We're glad you're happy with it."

The worst thing? Prices and the fact that GW never seem to encourage innovative and creative model building and scenery building. For example they never show scratch built terrain, or tables in blogs and White-dwarf. It's always you must use the ready-made GW table with GW scenery. Also they don't really do conversion guides any more or a bitz service... I'd actually say they have neutered the creative aspects of the GW hobby a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

I openly use the Pig Iron heads in my GW. I still have to buy the guardsmen to use them, I just want my guard to look different. The heads are unlike anything they make, so I don't see the problem.

Again this line of posting has been talked before. It really depends at this moment on the GW manager at the GW store that is within your region.

I know that one GW manager in my area that would not allow those models in his store because it uses 3rd party product. I know this because I have been asked first hand about my scratch built models if I used other than GW parts.

Sooner or later as stated previously I believe that all of the GW stores will start cracking down on 3rd party product on people's models and not allow them in their stores.

But why would they need to? For example say if I bought a box of Cadians and some Pig-Iron heads, GW are not any worse off, I would still have to buy the Cadians box to use the Pig Iron heads, so in theory not impacting GW sales at all.

 MetalOxide wrote:
...so in theory not impacting GW sales at all.

ANY hobby purchase like; buying Pig Iron heads for example, that is not made by and primarily sold by Games Workshop is considered by GW to be a lost sale. To them you hobby money should all be spent on GW product.

Mat Ward.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Mat Ward.

Wait is this really 5 pages without a matt ward hate? :O we at a record here?

 doc1234 wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Mat Ward.

Wait is this really 5 pages without a matt ward hate? :O we at a record here?

I thought page 2 or 3 had some hate.

 Wardragoon wrote:

 doc1234 wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Mat Ward.

Wait is this really 5 pages without a matt ward hate? :O we at a record here?

I thought page 2 or 3 had some hate.

A quick CTRL+F of his name detects none

I would say that the constant complaining about G.W has gotten quite old. But for their part, G.W isn't doing much to help that.

 frozenwastes wrote:
The only time I don't like comission paint work is when the person paying for it can't assess quality and hires someone terrible and then brags about how good their army looks. We're all too polite to be honest and just say things like "We're glad you're happy with it."

There's a term for this, but it should also be said that if you spent a noticeable sum of money on something you're going to like it because not liking it means you did something stupid. Very common with cars and such. Some people get this, others (like me) tend to get the opposite where I over-think even trivial purchasing decisions.

 Consul Scipio wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
...so in theory not impacting GW sales at all.

ANY hobby purchase like; buying Pig Iron heads for example, that is not made by and primarily sold by Games Workshop is considered by GW to be a lost sale. To them you hobby money should all be spent on GW product.

I don't know about the upstairs guys but the one time I tried to play my IG with pig iron heads I was told by the guys in there I couldn't because it is a GW store, they let you play games in there to show of their models, that way when someone walking past sticks their head in and goes "oooh, I like that where can I buy one?" they are directed to a shelf, not someone else's website. As annoying as that is (well not so much for me since I ran tank heavy IG and just proxied 20 marines instead of IG vets) it makes sense and you kinda cant blame them for that.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Consul Scipio wrote:

 MetalOxide wrote:
...so in theory not impacting GW sales at all.

ANY hobby purchase like; buying Pig Iron heads for example, that is not made by and primarily sold by Games Workshop is considered by GW to be a lost sale. To them you hobby money should all be spent on GW product.

I don't know about the upstairs guys but the one time I tried to play my IG with pig iron heads I was told by the guys in there I couldn't because it is a GW store, they let you play games in there to show of their models, that way when someone walking past sticks their head in and goes "oooh, I like that where can I buy one?" they are directed to a shelf, not someone else's website. As annoying as that is (well not so much for me since I ran tank heavy IG and just proxied 20 marines instead of IG vets) it makes sense and you kinda cant blame them for that.

Then you just say "Ummm, they're not pig iron heads. I sculpted them myself". What do you think they're gonna do, scratch the paint off the heads to make sure it's green stuff under there?

I've already said this here, but why should ANYONE think that asking GW if one can use non GW parts on a model is going to end the way you want it to? Operate a "don't ask, don't tell" policy with stuff like this and no-one will be the wiser.

Like asking a cop if you can speed. "um officer I just bought this new furarri and I really want to see what's it handles like at 100+ miles an hour, is that ok?"

Worst bit (apart from being Australian) is probably that sad blog they call "What's New Today". Something that has lots of potential but more than half the time is wasted on showing 'pretty pictures'. Sure I can understand using it to show off new releases etc. but I really don't think it's sole purpose should be a tool to look at some nicely painted miniatures. Why not any actual modelling or painting articles? Why not even give Jervis control of the Blog once a month or something? Just something besides 'pretty pictures'!!!!

The worst thing about the GW hobby right now?

The whiny fanbase that need their hobby spoonfed to them.

 Easy E wrote:
The whiny fanbase that need their hobby spoonfed to them.

Not really sure what you mean.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
The whiny fanbase that need their hobby spoonfed to them.

Not really sure what you mean.

Who knows. I just find the comment a little ironic considering most people in this thread are lamenting GW doing just that with the ROBB.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I don't know about the upstairs guys but the one time I tried to play my IG with pig iron heads I was told by the guys in there I couldn't because it is a GW store, they let you play games in there to show of their models, that way when someone walking past sticks their head in and goes "oooh, I like that where can I buy one?" they are directed to a shelf, not someone else's website[...]

Agreed, this attitude is horrible (though kind of understandable). Recently a lot of people started complaining about this very policy until our store manager budged and allowed head conversions for starters. Considering a lot of our shop goers love to do conversions, staying hard on the "no 3rd party content" rule would have meant a lot of money loss in the long term.

As for the topic at hand, it's not certain official policies, not the cost (heck, the stuff should technically cost more for all the work behind it), not even a certain M. Ward. No, for me it's neck-beards and tournament idiots who always need the most hardcore list even to a relaxed day game because they simply don't get it into their heads the game is supposed to be fun and not about stomping everyone in range into the ground. Even the kids learn that. Incidentially, our kids have better painted armies than most tournament dudes, whose armies are nearly always super grey.

I am a fairly new hobbiest. I joined in 2007 and have been an avid gamer and hobbiest until a few months ago. Last November long time manager of my local GW moved to Cali. He was a good guy and always included me despite my young age. He helped me with my hobby and didn't try to shove the newest realease down y throat. With him gone the new manager came, he was a former employee at my local GW. But boy did he change, I understood he had a bussiness to run but he tried to shove the hobby down my throat. I know GW has undergone massive changes in the recent years, but the old manager always kept it at bay and held the hobby co,,umity strong. Now I just kind of dropped out of the hobby, its not that fun to do alone or with people who try to make you buy more gak

One of many many GW bought and loved terrain sets.





Like? Cool!
Dislike? well thats your perogotive too.
I have 0.00% complaints with thier terrain kits.

Ah NN

Worst thing about GW. Being ignorant. Lemme explain...
Two weeks ago I was in the GW Memphis Battle Bunker playing in a 1999+1 tournament. While myself and my cousin are waiting for the third round of fast-paced narrative-driven action to wrap up we are perusing this very website on his laptop. We are sitting on a couch against a wall around a corner. We are the only two people in the whole store who can even see what we are looking at, and it's the box set thread with the leaked pics. Which had already been around for ~24hrs. We are simply talking amongst ourselves when the manager of said location walks up and says

Manager: What are you guys looking at?
Me: Pics of Chaos cultists.
Manager: Seriously guys? Not in the store.
Me: And why exactly is that?
Manager: Come on guys. Not in the store. You can go outside and look. Or in the car, or even down the street, or even in your own homes. Just not in the store.

Before I was able to tirade he shuffled off, and looked upset more than pissed. I realize he can neither confirm or deny the images we were looking at, but his whole approach was way off.
I've been playing CSM for about three years now, and have been hanging on to the hope of a new codex since about the time I realized we got hosed in the land raider department. I've ran my princes and oblits and plague marines waiting for our day in the sun.
Now I'm excited about spending money on models for my army which I can only buy from them and he's telling me not to look at them? Telling. Not asking. I'm 30. Treat me like an adult and I promise I'll act like one.
What he should have said was something along the lines of 'interesting' or 'don't believe everything you read'. We all know better. Just move on.
On our way out the door my cousin asked me if I was going to buy anything. I said no because I wanted to see what happens with the new codex. The manager hears me say this and says "What new codex?"
Seriously, guy. you.

And one more thing, off topic. Earlier tonight I was painting that same cousin's thunderwolf cav and google searched "wolf fur markings" and about 50% or more of the images were furry art. Internet vexes me sometimes.

 Ratius wrote:
I have 2X sets of the RoBG set and a load of GW scenery packs, no regrets whatsoever.
Im just gonna be a petty gakker at this stage and say:
"Hey whatever works for you". L:eave the rest of us to it, thanks.

 Ratius wrote:

I feel like you are trying to send a message of some sort..

Don't get my wrong, your board looks great! But at the same time don't begrudge those who want to try and DIY their own stuff, or that new kids coming into the game are encouraged to use their creativity rather than "just buy this kit!" - which I think is what the eagle-hunting people on this thread are arguing (if that's what you are trying to imply? )

@Sharkvictim,

So you would ask him to deny its existence in one way and when he does it in another way he's fethed up? Have I misunderstood something?

Seems like he asked you nicely to leave the Internet based stuff at home because a) he would get an arse kicking if his boss saw it instore, b) GW like to do their big reveal/surprise! Look what we made thing c) there are plenty of people that will not have seen those pictures and would probably like to be in on the group "wow we're surprised" moment if that is a bunker.

No one like having their chips pissed on, I'm sure he was just trying to ensure the above.

Over here it's common knowledge not to use a laptop in the store because some of the kids do NOT know that, it's to prevent bad examples. But he really could have asked nicely instead. We're all hobbyists, being polite should be a requirement.

notprop wrote:
So you would ask him to deny its existence in one way and when he does it in another way he's fethed up? Have I misunderstood something?

Yes apparently. It's not that he denied the existence of, or any rumor pertaining to, a new CSM codex. It's that I wasn't talking to him. I wasn't even looking in his general direction. He went out of his way to chime in with "What new codex?" with a serious inquisitive tone. In both the laptop and codex scenarios he should have simply shuffled on and left me alone. If it looks like the rumor mill is working in your favor you don't stop it dead in it's tracks, just let it roll.

notprop wrote:
Seems like he asked you nicely to leave the Internet based stuff at home because a) he would get an arse kicking if his boss saw it instore, b) GW like to do their big reveal/surprise! Look what we made thing c) there are plenty of people that will not have seen those pictures and would probably like to be in on the group "wow we're surprised" moment if that is a bunker.

No. He did not ask at all. That is the problem. Had he asked me "Could you not do that in the store please?" I would have responded "Sure, no problem."
Yes. If I were having an open forum showing everyone the pictures, going table to table putting everyone's noses in it, that would be completely my bad. But I wouldn't do that, nor did I. You would almost have to be sitting in my lap literally to have seen what I was looking at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SorataZ wrote:But he really could have asked nicely instead. We're all hobbyists, being polite should be a requirement.

Exactly. Now obviously (to some) it's a two-way street, and I try to be friendly and polite every time I go in there. I went to the same store with my cousin last Sunday to play on their new cities of death table* and while we were shooting the breeze with the guys that were up there (painting and modeling, there were only two guys in the building actually playing at the moment) two more guys come in and asked for a 6th ed refresher demo. Me and my cuz offered to split and play teams with these guys to get them up to speed, freeing the GW employee to continue doing what he was doing. Still got to play, still used the CoD table, and helped some dudes get sorted out with the rules a little bit.
*The CoD table at the Memphis bunker is pretty awesome. I make alot of my own terrain, but most of the GW pieces are really good. I thought the skyshield landing pad was stupid until I played with one on the table. Now that it has rules I like it even more. QFT, haters gonna hate.

GW must be the only hobby store I can think of where you can't talk about future releases. I suppose that's what comes of having corporate stores with orders from above to control information, no other model/wargames company exists that has their own dedicated line of store after all.

Most model and wargames stores are run by people enthusiastic about the hobby and engage the customer with banter, sharing rumours and speculating on releases, casual conversation. GW do completely the opposite, shutting down the conversation on topics that are likely of great interest to their customer. It's like they don't understand or appreciate their market, how gamers and modellers work. Maybe this is what GW want in their stores, but it's not how gamers work. Trying to force people's behaviour to fit their mould is just a perverse approach to engaging your own customer base and makes conversations obviously artificial if you know the person working in the store has topics that they will declare out of bounds or flat out untruthfully deny to your face.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
GW must be the only hobby store I can think of where you can't talk about future releases. I suppose that's what comes of having corporate stores with orders from above to control information, no other model/wargames company exists that has their own dedicated line of store after all.

Most model and wargames stores are run by people enthusiastic about the hobby and engage the customer with banter, sharing rumours and speculating on releases, casual conversation. GW do completely the opposite, shutting down the conversation on topics that are likely of great interest to their customer. It's like they don't understand or appreciate their market, how gamers and modellers work. Maybe this is what GW want in their stores, but it's not how gamers work. Trying to force people's behaviour to fit their mould is just a perverse approach to engaging your own customer base and makes conversations obviously artificial if you know the person working in the store has topics that they will declare out of bounds or flat out untruthfully deny to your face.

Out of interest do Apple disallow the same kind of conversations in their stores? I get the impression that GW seem to be very enamoured with Apple and try to emulate them in any way they can (definitely with several of the managers I've spoken to, they have the impression the only company GW can be compared to WRT how they operate is Apple).

It just strikes me as an odd approach as whilst GW is trying to be "cool and secretive" like Apple they both have completely different markets and customer bases. Whilst they'll cross over at times there's not that many IMO.

I have never been told to not talk about rumours etc in store, normally it has been ok and even staff have joined in.

 Azza007 wrote:
I have never been told to not talk about rumours etc in store, normally it has been ok and even staff have joined in.

To show the other end of the scale, I and several others have been threatened with being banned from my local for talking about then unreleased stuff (Finecast IIRC). The same manager threatened to sack one of their staff if they looked at what I was looking at on my phone.

I depends entirely on the person. The manager that preceded the above one had a good chinwag with me about the GK codex leak, with us both looking at it on my phone instore. Others just like their little power trip. It amused me recently when I went into my local GW a couple of weeks ago and the manager mention about something big happening on sat. Everyone, including several "little timmys" who supposedly do not frequent these kind of sites knew what said announcement was and what the box contained. He was desperately trying to get everyone to hush up about it.

I'm seeing more and more managers fall into the "corporate stooge" bracket. All of the good ones have moved on, along with their old school ways and letting things slide. We once had a manager that loved to hear these things as he was aware (even as far back as 5 years ago) GW told him practically nothing about upcoming releases and welcomed the customers bringing him up to speed with what was supposedly on the horizon.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Out of interest do Apple disallow the same kind of conversations in their stores? I get the impression that GW seem to be very enamoured with Apple and try to emulate them in any way they can (definitely with several of the managers I've spoken to, they have the impression the only company GW can be compared to WRT how they operate is Apple).

It just strikes me as an odd approach as whilst GW is trying to be "cool and secretive" like Apple they both have completely different markets and customer bases. Whilst they'll cross over at times there's not that many IMO.

I would imagine that if someone was in the Apple Store, about to purchase a new laptop that will be "replaced" in a month or two, the employee selling it would be encouraged to move that stock, rather than suggest, "hey, if you wait just one month, you can get the newest greatest PoS laptop that we offer, OR you can buy this one at a slightly lower, yet still greatly inflated price!"

I mean, if a customer already "knows" whats coming down, he/she may be down there just to get that sort of deal anyways... so in some respects I would think that nearly all companies that have their own branded stores would do similar to GW.

That's not how marketing works. If the customer starts feeling betrayed by the company for not getting information, s/he will just move on and buy elsewhere (unless the company has a monopol of sorts).
A customer who gets sufficient information and talk about what s/he wants to know and how to maximise gain for the money will be happy and thus buy again... and again... and again.
Money isn't gained from sales, as oxymoronic as that may sound. First the customer needs a reason to buy. Without a proper reason, the customer is unlikely to buy anything since there is no want here. If the shop manager now sufficiently talks with and convinces the customer and tells them what they need and what they do NOT need (thus saving money) the want turns into a need, and after some more information it turns into a must have. That's when the money flows because now the customer either buys the product... or buys it later.
If the customer now is presented a given product and asks if something better is down the line, gets denied and then finds out that YES THERE WAS a product down the line, said feeling of betrayal sets in. That's a real killer in marketing.

Over here we are glad our shop keeper is the kind of person who engages in rumouring and sometimes in debatte of what might come. He's pretty awesome when it comes to that because he really tells everyone what they need and do not need to maximise gain from money. He's doing it right.

 SorataZ wrote:
That's not how marketing works. If the customer starts feeling betrayed by the company for not getting information, s/he will just move on and buy elsewhere (unless the company has a monopol of sorts).
A customer who gets sufficient information and talk about what s/he wants to know and how to maximise gain for the money will be happy and thus buy again... and again... and again.
Money isn't gained from sales, as oxymoronic as that may sound. First the customer needs a reason to buy. Without a proper reason, the customer is unlikely to buy anything since there is no want here. If the shop manager now sufficiently talks with and convinces the customer and tells them what they need and what they do NOT need (thus saving money) the want turns into a need, and after some more information it turns into a must have. That's when the money flows because now the customer either buys the product... or buys it later.
If the customer now is presented a given product and asks if something better is down the line, gets denied and then finds out that YES THERE WAS a product down the line, said feeling of betrayal sets in. That's a real killer in marketing.

Over here we are glad our shop keeper is the kind of person who engages in rumouring and sometimes in debatte of what might come. He's pretty awesome when it comes to that because he really tells everyone what they need and do not need to maximise gain from money. He's doing it right.

Not exactly the same situation but I get what you're saying, if my local GW redshirt had shown me the 6th starter stuff a month ago and shown me the price I would have set some money aside for it and picked one up, as it is I can't throw together the $180 (au) together with a weeks notice so I am not gonna bother getting it at all at this point and will grab the chaos half (probably off ebay) if I see a new chaos dex is coming out.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 SorataZ wrote:
That's not how marketing works. If the customer starts feeling betrayed by the company for not getting information, s/he will just move on and buy elsewhere (unless the company has a monopol of sorts).
A customer who gets sufficient information and talk about what s/he wants to know and how to maximise gain for the money will be happy and thus buy again... and again... and again.
Money isn't gained from sales, as oxymoronic as that may sound. First the customer needs a reason to buy. Without a proper reason, the customer is unlikely to buy anything since there is no want here. If the shop manager now sufficiently talks with and convinces the customer and tells them what they need and what they do NOT need (thus saving money) the want turns into a need, and after some more information it turns into a must have. That's when the money flows because now the customer either buys the product... or buys it later.
If the customer now is presented a given product and asks if something better is down the line, gets denied and then finds out that YES THERE WAS a product down the line, said feeling of betrayal sets in. That's a real killer in marketing.

Over here we are glad our shop keeper is the kind of person who engages in rumouring and sometimes in debatte of what might come. He's pretty awesome when it comes to that because he really tells everyone what they need and do not need to maximise gain from money. He's doing it right.

Not exactly the same situation but I get what you're saying, if my local GW redshirt had shown me the 6th starter stuff a month ago and shown me the price I would have set some money aside for it and picked one up, as it is I can't throw together the $180 (au) together with a weeks notice so I am not gonna bother getting it at all at this point and will grab the chaos half (probably off ebay) if I see a new chaos dex is coming out.

Might want to start saving then, because we've got a new chaos codex on the way (in case you didn't figure that out by over half the chaos units in the box not being in the current codex ) Rumor has it it should be out by the end of the month.

Which is why most people hate GW's marketing scheme. If they had just said "hey guys, chaos codex will be out in a month, get ready" a lot more customers would feel some good will towards them. Instead, GW tries to keep it secret till the last minute and act all cute like they did something clever. It burns far more bridges than it raises as far as I'm concerned.

And if you're in Aus, eBay for just the half of the starter you want is probably way, way cheaper.

Or just buy it from an internationally friendly retailer. Got mine for $105 (incl. shipping).

Yeah. Being up here in Canada, Miniature Market in the US would be my go to place not to get screwed by GW's screw Canada pricing. It's not as bad as screw Australia pricing, but it's not great.

Either way, GW purchases have gotten high enough ticket that they're just not going to get me on impulse buys anymore. So their secrecy policy pretty much guarantees I'm going to stick with historicals, Mantic, Dreamforge, Kromlech, etc.,.

Oh and

 Sharkvictim wrote:
Worst thing about GW. Being ignorant. Lemme explain...
Two weeks ago I was in the GW Memphis Battle Bunker playing in a 1999+1 tournament. While myself and my cousin are waiting for the third round of fast-paced narrative-driven action to wrap up we are perusing this very website on his laptop. We are sitting on a couch against a wall around a corner. We are the only two people in the whole store who can even see what we are looking at, and it's the box set thread with the leaked pics. Which had already been around for ~24hrs. We are simply talking amongst ourselves when the manager of said location walks up and says

Manager: What are you guys looking at?
Me: Pics of Chaos cultists.
Manager: Seriously guys? Not in the store.
Me: And why exactly is that?
Manager: Come on guys. Not in the store. You can go outside and look. Or in the car, or even down the street, or even in your own homes. Just not in the store.

Before I was able to tirade he shuffled off, and looked upset more than pissed. I realize he can neither confirm or deny the images we were looking at, but his whole approach was way off.
I've been playing CSM for about three years now, and have been hanging on to the hope of a new codex since about the time I realized we got hosed in the land raider department. I've ran my princes and oblits and plague marines waiting for our day in the sun.
Now I'm excited about spending money on models for my army which I can only buy from them and he's telling me not to look at them? Telling. Not asking. I'm 30. Treat me like an adult and I promise I'll act like one.
What he should have said was something along the lines of 'interesting' or 'don't believe everything you read'. We all know better. Just move on.
On our way out the door my cousin asked me if I was going to buy anything. I said no because I wanted to see what happens with the new codex. The manager hears me say this and says "What new codex?"
Seriously, guy. you.

And one more thing, off topic. Earlier tonight I was painting that same cousin's thunderwolf cav and google searched "wolf fur markings" and about 50% or more of the images were furry art. Internet vexes me sometimes.

In internet years 30 makes you a dinosaur...

My oppinion here is simple: lack of support and communication.

We dont see a Game made by Gamers to Gamers, we see a game made by money suckers to money havers...

Everything else is perfect (ok, we could see better prices), but that is the central point of the business... and it is made poorly :/

I don't understand why so many people hate children, or specifically hate children being bought stuff by their parents. Was everyone in this thread raised in a barn or something?

I mean, imagine a child wanting something from Games Workshop for his birthday. The *shame*.

 Testify wrote:
I don't understand why so many people hate children, or specifically hate children being bought stuff by their parents. Was everyone in this thread raised in a barn or something?

I mean, imagine a child wanting something from Games Workshop for his birthday. The *shame*.

While I cannot speak for all, I know that my hatred of children is not the ones who want to get into the hobby...


It's the annoying fethers who are in the store unsupervised, are never supervised even when they have a parent there, and don't understand the concept of "I took my time to build and paint that, so don't touch it!" It's the ones who cannot seem to grasp the game, and pout if they lose, or they call you a cheat just because of their inability to read a simple rule, etc. etc.

That's fair enough, I hate kids as much as the next single man I meant more the "omg little timmy" posters.

 Testify wrote:
I don't understand why so many people hate children, or specifically hate children being bought stuff by their parents. Was everyone in this thread raised in a barn or something?

I mean, imagine a child wanting something from Games Workshop for his birthday. The *shame*.

Miniature wargaming has historically been an adult's hobby. GW is the one who figured out that children and teenagers can be a good target market. There's nothing wrong with it.

The problem is that from 1998 and on, they switched their target market to primarily being non-adults. So a lot of people who started with GW as they grew from a UK based company to an international one during the 1990s have largely been abandoned in terms of products designed for them. Forge World helps with this, but when you have things like Jervis saying he wants the codecies to be written for his 12 year old son, and the added randomness and simplification with each new edition release, people are getting sick of not being GW's target audience. They also shelved all of their tactically deep games like Warmaster, Epic, BFG, etc.,. Did you know in the first half of the 90s Epic stuff was their number 2 seller ahead of WFB? It was only when they scuttled it with the simplified Epic 40,000 version that it died. People found it overly simplistic and bland compared to the 1st and 2nd edition games like Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine and Titan Legions. Epic: Armageddon returned to the original legacy with a tactically deep game and despite selling 600% (according to Jervis while Fanatic was still around) of projected sales, they still shelved it as it was the new corporate plan to only market Warhammer 40k, WFB and LotR.

GW could really stand to think a bit more about how to keep their child customer base and rebuild/retain their adult customer base.

Toy soldiers were only played with by adults until Gw plc messed things up in the late 90s?

Not sure about the Specialist stuff you quote but the 1987 first edition Bloodbowl states it's for 12 to adult on the box and RT states 16 to adult.

Games have always been for children and adults of course, who take it all way too seriously!

 notprop wrote:
Toy soldiers were only played with by adults until Gw plc messed things up in the late 90s?

Not sure about the Specialist stuff you quote but the 1987 first edition Bloodbowl states it's for 12 to adult on the box and RT states 16 to adult.

Games have always been for children and adults of course, who take it all way too seriously!

I don't think you actually read the post you were replying to.

 frozenwastes wrote:

GW could really stand to think a bit more about how to keep their child customer base and rebuild/retain their adult customer base.

Well that's the point really - targeting both the young and the old doesn't have to be mutually exclusive; there is a middle ground that can be trod. I sometimes can't understand what, on the face of it, would appear to be deliberate attempts by GW to ignore certain consumer demographics.

Ah, I think the perfect time to post this picture! Let us never forget the illustrious beginnings of the wargaming hobby..

Miniature wargaming still is a mostly adult hobby. While it may have gotten a bit of attention around the turn of the 20th century and into the roarding 20s after the publication of Little Wars by HG Wells in 1913, the wargaming hobby has largely been the domain of adult males. From the 19th century Kriegspielers, to the sand table owners, to the hex games of the 60s and 70s, it's largely been an adult hobby.

While teenagers and 12+ kids have always been accepted as customers by any smart wargaming seller, the basic idea was that they were playing a game meant for adults. The rules were complex and part of the appeal to the younger players was that they were doing stuff older and more mature people were into. It was aspirational.

GW was smart enough to realize that the 12+ market has a lot of money in it. So in the late 1990s they started going after it. The adult hobby of miniature wargaming has survived just fine alongside it, and GW has thrown the occasional bone to their existing adult customer base, but largely, their products are designed for children whereas in the past they were designed for adults.

I think GW could target the child market without losing the adult market it they brought back part of the aspirational angle. They even still have a portion of their customer base that are adults that keep buying a product aimed at children.

I think they could redesign their product experience from the ground up so that it could still be marketed at children and return to their roots of a product that meets the needs of adult gamers, and not just those who stick around with GW's stuff despite (or because of) the fact that it's very teenage boy in it's mentality and presentation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:
Ah, I think the perfect time to post this picture! Let us never forget the illustrious beginnings of the wargaming hobby..

Nice. Bunch of stodgy guys in suits

And 101 years before the publication of Little Wars by HG Wells, you have Kriegsspeil which started out as an officer training program in the Prussian military.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegsspiel_%28wargame%29

I still maintain that a lot of what the adult posters are having issue with in this thread stems from the fact that GW is going after children with their products. From the simplified terrain, to the price hikes that won't seem so bad to someone who doesn't stick around as an adult lifer, to the rules being made for Jervis' 12 year old son, to the shelving of the tactically deep games which may not be ideal for 12+ year olds and distract from the "ooh-- shiney!" of their big three games, almost everything is explained by GW's change in target demographic.

The adult market is there. Just look at Forgeworld's excellent performance. Or the proliferation of resin aftermarket accessory sellers. Or the Kickstarters hitting huge amounts of money where you're likely not a 12-16 year old funding that.

I used to think GW made up a vast majority of miniature wargaming sales. I thought perhaps they made up 90%+ of the market. Now I think it's probably less than half and declining.

Elemental wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Toy soldiers were only played with by adults until Gw plc messed things up in the late 90s?

Not sure about the Specialist stuff you quote but the 1987 first edition Bloodbowl states it's for 12 to adult on the box and RT states 16 to adult.
CO4 5EG
Games have always been for children and adults of course, who take it all way too seriously!

I don't think you actually read the post you were replying to.

Something you appear to have done as well, clearly my post indicates that gaming even under the evil GW corporation has never been selling to just adults.

The problem arises because in a gw account report some years ago the chairmans preamble stated that GWs target audience was
12-16 iirc. Many have taken umbridge against this as they see "their" hobby as a mature and adult pastime, you know "serious" business nothing childish like playing toy soldiers.

Now I don't see any problem with this, this demographic generates the most revenue for them so this is how it is. Whether you believe his has affected games and model design is a point of some conjecture. What isn't is the dropping or removal of on going expansion to the specialist games, this sticks in the craw a bit from a vets PoV which would go some way to meeting filberts complaints I'm sure. Hopefully one of the box releases will make them realise here is a market for Epic but I am not hopeful for this until the current recession and the Hobbit films have passed.

 filbert wrote:
Well that's the point really - targeting both the young and the old doesn't have to be mutually exclusive; there is a middle ground that can be trod. I sometimes can't understand what, on the face of it, would appear to be deliberate attempts by GW to ignore certain consumer demographics.

How could GW cater to the more "mature" gamer? Free porn in White Dwarf?

Free bottle of Bugmans with every issue!

Why is it that any time people talk about hobbies that appeal to adults or people who have finished maturing out of childhood, someone comes around to make a porn joke? I guess the slow pitches are just so tempting at times that you've got to swing. Or to use another metaphor, the low hanging fruit is easy to pick.

The "how" is that you aim your target market at 18-24 so that the 12-18 see it as something to aspire to and the 18+ see it as not being childish or stupid. You don't intentionally write the rules with your 12 year old son in mind.

There were some adult themes in the 2nd edition fluff that got gutted with the fictionless wasteland that was 3rd edition. Since then they've been rebuilding the fiction to appeal to adolescent readers. The latest codecies have been reading like fanfic designed to boost up mary-sue characters. It's a far cry from the atmospheric stuff inspired by Brian Ansell's Imperial Commander and Laserburn fictional universes that make up the foundation of 40k's background universe.

Black Library has done a great job making stuff that is way, way better than the fiction in the game books, but it too is still aimed at an adolescent target market. If you want to see 40k fiction done right, properly aimed at adults, take a look at the Fantasy Flight Games RPG material.

White Dwarf is supposedly getting a major overhaul. This is one area where they could really raise the level of their communications with their fans. I'm guessing though, that the WD team is probably having meetings where the suits tell the creative types "Remember, this magazine needs to appeal to 12 year olds!"

 frozenwastes wrote:
You don't intentionally write the rules with your 12 year old son in mind.

Why not? I mean, the US Army writes all of its manuals to an 8th grade reading level (which is, IIRC 13-14 years old). By writing rules to a slightly younger crowd, you can ensure that people don't need a genius level IQ to be able to comprehend and play the rules as written....



Of course, this is GW we're talking about here, and ambiguous unclear rules is the name of the game.

 frozenwastes wrote:

stuff..
<snip>
White Dwarf is supposedly getting a major overhaul. This is one area where they could really raise the level of their communications with their fans. I'm guessing though, that the WD team is probably having meetings where the suits tell the creative types "Remember, this magazine needs to appeal to 12 year olds!"

Isn't it already? Lots of bright pictures, few words..

Joking aside, it's precisely because the fluff has such a long history behind it that we get all these mary-sue characters. They have to go beyond the previous levels every time they update a codex, naturally. Or fight their tendencies to 'reimagine' a faction.

Remembered a new gripe over the weekend - putting the damn led models together or more specifically cleaning mould lines!

I swear if I could buy a models that didn't have hands with mould lines that go in ane out of each and every blooming finger I'd buy all of them!

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:
You don't intentionally write the rules with your 12 year old son in mind.

Why not? I mean, the US Army writes all of its manuals to an 8th grade reading level (which is, IIRC 13-14 years old). By writing rules to a slightly younger crowd, you can ensure that people don't need a genius level IQ to be able to comprehend and play the rules as written....

Of course, this is GW we're talking about here, and ambiguous unclear rules is the name of the game.

Reading level isn't the same issue as target age for game play. You can explain very complex concepts using simple words and sentence structures. What I'm talking about is tactical depth. Like what Epic: Armageddon or Warmaster has. Relatively simple concepts expressed in clear and simple language (probably at a grade 6 reading level even) that provide tactical depth way beyond GW's core games. In the RPG world, Pathfinder is written at a grade 8 or so reading level, but they know their primary audience is made up of adults and the material is excellent and has a combination of both complex and simple elements to appeal to a variety of customers from casual to dedicated.

Shandara wrote:
Isn't it already? Lots of bright pictures, few words..

Yeah... I'm saying that despite any talk of an overhaul, I see no reason why GW is going to change its target demographic. If there are creative types on the WD team who start straying into articles that might be more appreciated by adults, I'm sure they'll be reminded that it's all about the 12 year olds.

Joking aside, it's precisely because the fluff has such a long history behind it that we get all these mary-sue characters. They have to go beyond the previous levels every time they update a codex, naturally. Or fight their tendencies to 'reimagine' a faction.

Yeah. It's a common trap for writers. You have to keep one-upping yourself if you don't instead make something of substance.

None of this is going to change though. GW has chosen their business plan and it's making the top executives of the company rich. They're not going to stop with the yearly price hikes, cutting store services, keeping staff at a minimum, having cookie cutter terrain, aiming the hobby at children or doing any of the other things people don't like when they're old enough to know better.

 frozenwastes wrote:
Did you know in the first half of the 90s Epic stuff was their number 2 seller ahead of WFB? It was only when they scuttled it with the simplified Epic 40,000 version that it died. People found it overly simplistic and bland compared to the 1st and 2nd edition games like Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine and Titan Legions.

I would take issue with both your opinion of Epic 3rd ed. and your analysis of its impact on GW's direction. I played Epic 2nd ed. for many years, and frankly it was an overcomplicated mess of a game, vastly overstuffed with rules exceptions and details unnecessary in a large-scale wargame, which tended to swamp tactical play. 3rd ed., by contrast, was one of GW's finest creations (one of the rare points on which I agree with Andy and Jervis), with elegant, consistent rules which allowed and encouraged tactical, manoeuvre-based play. Certainly it was simpler and more abstract than the previous edition, but complexity of rules does not equate to tactical complexity, indeed more often the relationship is quite the reverse. (This is also why Space Hulk is generally regarded by those who understand such things to be a significantly better tactical game than Warhammer 40,000.)

The tournament circuit and "competitive players" of the time (myself included) by and large welcomed the changes the new edition brought; it was the kids and "casual players" who disdained the game, as it lacked the fluffiness and chrome they were used to in GW's games. If its failure taught GW anything, it was that the majority of their customers didn't want an objectively well-written, balanced, tactically deep game, considering it "bland" and "simplistic"; they wanted fiddly exceptions and endless lists of special rules to remember, and called that "characterful" and "complex". Frankly, I'd lay the blame for GW's present attitude to their customers squarely at the feet of everybody who whined about their last good rulesset back in 1997, and made it clear to them that good games didn't sell.

I loved 3rd Ed, EPIC 40k. Bring it back, v2 just an updated version not a 4th Ed.

My favorite edition would be Epic:Armageddon. It has a nice middle ground thing going on.

It could well be that Epic 40k was actually a good game, but it was enough of a shock to the existing player base that it basically scuttled the line.

And over the next five years GW adopted the "Core three games" company policy and the game has never gotten a fair shake again. Epic: Armageddon even had the majority of it's list development work done by fan volunteers because GW was allocating no resources to it.

I skipped over everything to post this:

I wanted the RoB board when it was 175 USD. However, at the
higher price I felt that it wasn't worth my money. I don't think it's
even good as a starter cost for someone new to the hobby.

But at 175? I thought that might be worth it.

The whole point of GW's higher prices for starter type products is to maximize the money they get from someone before they quit.

I don't hate children, I love my kids as well as my nieces and nephews. My problem stems from the fact that at some point in time parents stopped being parents. Which means 8 out othe 10 kids I see act like little brates. Their not tought manners or how to act in a socially acceptable manner. I'm not interested in hearing an 8 or 12 year old curse more than a grown man does. It doesnt make you sound more mature.

There are two things tied for "worst" in my mind:

1) Having to buy the fluff over and over again. The story behind 40K (and WHFB, for that matter) have never really advanced, and no one really needs more than one version to understand the universe they are playing in. Black Library covers all of that quite nicely. I would gladly pay $50 for an 80-page rule book, instead of $100+ for 300 page book with 80 pages of rules. And yes, I loved the stripped-down format of the earliest 3rd edition 40K codices.

2) Not being allowed to dislike anything about GW. Early on in this thread, someone posted something to the effect of "Don't like it? Sell your army and GTFO." Discontent should be a catalyst for positive change, not a call to circle the wagons...

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Testify wrote:
I don't understand why so many people hate children, or specifically hate children being bought stuff by their parents. Was everyone in this thread raised in a barn or something?

I mean, imagine a child wanting something from Games Workshop for his birthday. The *shame*.

Miniature wargaming has historically been an adult's hobby. GW is the one who figured out that children and teenagers can be a good target market. There's nothing wrong with it.

The problem is that from 1998 and on, they switched their target market to primarily being non-adults. So a lot of people who started with GW as they grew from a UK based company to an international one during the 1990s have largely been abandoned in terms of products designed for them. Forge World helps with this, but when you have things like Jervis saying he wants the codecies to be written for his 12 year old son, and the added randomness and simplification with each new edition release, people are getting sick of not being GW's target audience. They also shelved all of their tactically deep games like Warmaster, Epic, BFG, etc.,. Did you know in the first half of the 90s Epic stuff was their number 2 seller ahead of WFB? It was only when they scuttled it with the simplified Epic 40,000 version that it died. People found it overly simplistic and bland compared to the 1st and 2nd edition games like Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine and Titan Legions. Epic: Armageddon returned to the original legacy with a tactically deep game and despite selling 600% (according to Jervis while Fanatic was still around) of projected sales, they still shelved it as it was the new corporate plan to only market Warhammer 40k, WFB and LotR.

GW could really stand to think a bit more about how to keep their child customer base and rebuild/retain their adult customer base.

Long live Epic... Great game dude...

JoshInJapan wrote:

2) Not being allowed to dislike anything about GW. Early on in this thread, someone posted something to the effect of "Don't like it? Sell your army and GTFO." Discontent should be a catalyst for positive change, not a call to circle the wagons...

Yea that kind of attitude is just plain annoying, disliking something and explaining why doesn't mean I hate everything GW does and should leave the hobby and liking something and arguing for it does not make me a GW apologist/fanboy/idiot.

JoshInJapan wrote:
1) Having to buy the fluff over and over again. The story behind 40K (and WHFB, for that matter) have never really advanced, and no one really needs more than one version to understand the universe they are playing in. Black Library covers all of that quite nicely. I would gladly pay $50 for an 80-page rule book, instead of $100+ for 300 page book with 80 pages of rules. And yes, I loved the stripped-down format of the earliest 3rd edition 40K codices.

Codices I'll grant you. Rulebooks? You're literally complaining about GW giving you what you want. Buy the starter set, or ebay the rulebook out of it. It is exactly what you are complaining about not being able to buy. Just the rules.

 malfred wrote:
I skipped over everything to post this:

I wanted the RoB board when it was 175 USD. However, at the
higher price I felt that it wasn't worth my money. I don't think it's
even good as a starter cost for someone new to the hobby.

But at 175? I thought that might be worth it.

Yeah, IIRC the RoB board got two price increases before it was even released. I remember it was kinda funny at the time, White Dwarf came out with the $175 price printed in it or something, and GW stuck an insert in that issue with the "corrected" price, and either at the same time the White Dwarf came out or soon after, even that wasn't the right price anymore and it had gone up again.

In any case I remembered talking about going half-in on a board with my brother when it was $175, then when the price almost doubled I said "Screw it" and put the idea out of my head.

JoshInJapan wrote:
2) Not being allowed to dislike anything about GW. Early on in this thread, someone posted something to the effect of "Don't like it? Sell your army and GTFO." Discontent should be a catalyst for positive change, not a call to circle the wagons...

Exactly.

If I'm not allowed to express my opinion on a topic, in a thread on a discussion forum that's dedicated to said topic, then where the hell can I express my opinion? You don't have to agree with me, but it's just plain wrong to tell someone to "Shut up and quit the hobby!" just because you don't see things from their point of view, when we're all posting on a forum where different points of view are supposedly all welcome. It also goes without saying that you can still enjoy the game, being capable of pointing out flaws or criticizing some aspects of the game that don't make sense or make it less enjoyable doesn't mean you're suffering through it all and making yourself do something you "clearly" hate, a lot of people out there have fun despite all of that. I personally don't anymore, it's why I quit playing the game about a year ago and why I quit buying models for the most part back in about January (Finecast was kind of the last straw for me, and the only reason I bought Dark Vengeance is because it's one of those extremely rare cases where GW provided good value for money and it was hard to pass up, I don't even play either of those armies but I liked the models enough and getting a compact version of the rules is an obvious bonus).

In any case, I'm entitled to my opinion the same as you are, I'm not breaking any Dakka rules by being the so-called "vocal minority", and I'm not obligated to remove myself from a community that I clearly enjoy being a part of in some way or I wouldn't have fething spent years being a part of it, all just for your sake. You don't like what you perceive to be "pointless and/or excessive negativity", or just straight up "hating" on a company you're fond of? Then don't expose yourself to it. Put me on ignore if my opinion really bothers you that much (half of Dakka already has), or better than that, just skip reading these kinds of threads where it's obvious from the title that it's going to contain a little bit of negativity. Much easier than expecting everyone else to bend to your will, I'll tell you that much. I'm not going anywhere, and every time you tell me to "Get out" I just dig in deeper. Take your own advice and give it up already.

Also, if no one expressed their opinions, gak wouldn't get done. If no one ever complained then how would anything ever improve? What would be the point in striving for better quality if everyone just shut up and accepted everything for how it was? I wonder if GW would have ever invested in better technology and started putting out higher-quality plastic kits if no one complained about the old ones feeling too "cheap" and being generally boring, mono-posed models.

 -Loki- wrote:

JoshInJapan wrote:
1) Having to buy the fluff over and over again. The story behind 40K (and WHFB, for that matter) have never really advanced, and no one really needs more than one version to understand the universe they are playing in. Black Library covers all of that quite nicely. I would gladly pay $50 for an 80-page rule book, instead of $100+ for 300 page book with 80 pages of rules. And yes, I loved the stripped-down format of the earliest 3rd edition 40K codices.

Codices I'll grant you. Rulebooks? You're literally complaining about GW giving you what you want. Buy the starter set, or ebay the rulebook out of it. It is exactly what you are complaining about not being able to buy. Just the rules.

That's not really much of an option, though. $80 for the gigantic hardback rulebook which is impractical for actually taking to games with you, or $100 for a smaller, paperback, "rules-only" version that's easier for actual gaming but also comes with a bunch of models you might not necessarily want. eBay doesn't really count either since that's not a service GW is providing me, they aren't giving me what I want in that case.

I bought Dark Vengeance because I kinda wanted the models, but if all you wanted was the rules GW doesn't really provide you with a good option, you're still going to spend almost $100 no matter what. That said it'll probably work out better just to buy the starter set anyway and sell all the models on eBay, if you're lucky you might make most of your money back, but wouldn't it still be easier for GW to just offer you that option in the first place? Or is GW afraid that the box won't sell itself and that offering the mini rulebook separately will hurt sales of both the starter and the hardcover rulebook? Clearly there would still be a market for the fancier hardcover option or Privateer Press wouldn't have been offering both options for their books.

Wyrd Miniatures reported that when they added a Malifaux mini rulebook for $15 that had all the rules reorganized, clarified and incorporating the Q&A and Errata, it actually caused an increase in their full size rulebook sales. People would buy a $50 starter and the $15 rulebook and then want the full sized rulebook for the fiction, picutres and art.

Then again, Malifaux has adults as their target audience for their products. Maybe GW thinks that their teenager market market would never do something like be so impressed with the game and miniatures that they go back and buy another book for the fiction and art. Instead, they want to frontload the cost of entry so they can get as much money from each customer before they quit.

JoshInJapan wrote:
2) Not being allowed to dislike anything about GW. Early on in this thread, someone posted something to the effect of "Don't like it? Sell your army and GTFO." Discontent should be a catalyst for positive change, not a call to circle the wagons...

This. The "haterz gunna hate"-crowd is one of the worst parts of the GW hobby.

Another one is the fact that it's called "the GW hobby".

That everything changes ruleswise (Core or Codex) before I can even get an army built, converted, and painted.

However, I'm sure that really only effects slowpoke, cheapskate me.