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And there was me thinking that Canadians understood the Queens English better than their southern neighbours. You have go off on a tangent and seem to be stuck there.

Have a look.at Pacifics post just before your last rant, he seems to have grasped the (I thought very clear) point I had made which has thus far proved beyond you. Indeed you seem to be going out of your way to prove my point by listing out the wherefores and whys of GW when that is not at issue. Play what you like IMHO just dont be getting all up in people's grills about it.

Oh and zealotry is only logical to extremists, normal people think it's a bit OTT. Now you'll probably take that to mean I think you're not normal or something like that and to be honest i am starting to think along those lines.


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Oh and services being cut, theres been a global recession on for the last few years - why is this suprising. Not getting free glue or whatever isn't cause for complaint.

Keep calm and carry on gaming. Stiff upper lip and all that.

I tried to explain to you why people who annoy you by coming off as if they have made some new discovery are doing so. You haven't dealt with a single thing I said. You just keep piling on the attacks instead of discussing things.

Again, do you have anything to say about the points I've made, or will it just be more of the same?

Oh and services being cut, theres been a global recession on for the last few years - why is this suprising. Not getting free glue or whatever isn't cause for complaint.

Other, more intelligent companies, have realized that when times are tough, you work harder for the customer's money, not offer less for more money.

And since GW's target audience is children, I think it's also likely that people quit as they mature. So maybe GW figured out that since they'll lose them as customers anyway, they may as well provide less of a service and cut some corners.

In the UK, hasn't wargaming traditionally been an adult hobby? Is it possible that most of the issues people have with GW is a sign of them slowly outgrowing it since their products are aimed at the under 18 crowd?

 frozenwastes wrote:
Really? You're now attacking my reading comprehension? Just. Wow. Where's a facepalm emoticon when you need one?

Um, one from the bottom - left column?

 frozenwastes wrote:
Other, more intelligent companies, have realized that when times are tough, you work harder for the customer's money, not offer less for more money.

And, again, you're completely missing Notprop's point.

If you feel that GW is too expensive or that you don't like their practices then vote with your wallet but bitching about it on Dakka is just a waste of everyone's time (especially the select few that feel the need to dive into any GW thread just to whine).

You responded to that by bitching about GW.

I think that a comment about reading comprehension wasn't out of line. (there it is!)

 frozenwastes wrote:
The reason people appear to have not known about other manufacturers and then are pleasantly surprised when they find out about them is because they did not know about other manufacturers

 frozenwastes wrote:
I tried to explain to you why people who annoy you by coming off as if they have made some new discovery are doing so. You haven't dealt with a single thing I said.

Except you haven't. GW don't mention other companies products. That's pretty common you know? Do Privateer Press talk about other companies products or games in their publications?

The internet makes it incredibly easy to find out about other games. Just go looking for a 40K forum or news site and you'll loads of forums that discuss a whole range of games (GW exclusive sites are relatively rate) Also, outside of the UK independent game stores outnumber GW stores.

So your suggestion that these people had zero idea that there were non-GW games out there is ridiculous and demonstratably false when we see it from Dakka members that have been around for years. They were completely aware that there were other games they just chose not to play them.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

If you feel that GW is too expensive or that you don't like their practices then vote with your wallet but bitching about it on Dakka is just a waste of everyone's time (especially the select few that feel the need to dive into any GW thread just to whine).

You responded to that by bitching about GW.

Please reread the title of this thread.

Did you come here for hugs and puppies?

For those who find their particular worst thing about the GW hobby to be no longer tolerable, their hobby doesn't have to end there. There's a huge range of options waiting for them. This is a very, very appropriate place to talk about that.

I also edited my previous post as I think insulting someone's reading comprehension and tying it to their nationality is boorish enough not to be quoted.

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 Scott-S6 wrote:

So your suggestion that these people had zero idea that there were non-GW games out there is ridiculous and demonstratably false when we see it from Dakka members that have been around for years. They were completely aware that there were other games they just chose not to play them.

We have a tendency to view our experience as universal. DakkaDakka members likely do not make up anywhere near a good representation of GW's customers. The majority of their customers are likely 12-18 years of age, find out about miniature gaming through a GW store and only find out about other companies when they look for things related to their new hobby. There's a large minority who do indeed find out about GW in the larger context of an independent retailer or an online site with lots of info, but there's still an awful lot of people who enter via GW and thus express a sense of newness when talking about alternatives.

What I'm more interested in right now is the idea that maybe the issues described in this thread are more of a result of GW's intentionally targeting teenagers and tweens. I wonder how many people are having issues with GW because they are rubbing up against the fact that the products they buy are targeted at children.

Take the prices, for example. If GW targets tweens and expects them to quit within a couple of years, then they'll likely only experience a single price increase. Not the year over year grind of a lifer who keeps buying regardless.

The realm of Battle boards standardize things a bit and if you're 13, you may not see the negative impact of one of those with sparse terrain on your gaming.

News and rumours lockdown? Perhaps finding out about stuff through White Dwarf works really well for the tween market.

The overdoing it of skulls that the OP mentioned might appeal to a more adolescent demeanor.

The lack of game balance probably doesn't matter as much if your customers are likely to quit before they get a full sized army together. And then there's Jervis saying back in 2008 that the majority of their customers don't play their games and that he wanted the new Codex layout to make sense to his 12 year old son.
.
So I think my new reply to "The worst thing about the GW hobby these days" is that it is targeted at children when GW's customer base used to be adults. There are adults who still play, but there are also 30 and 40 year old men obsessed with My Little Pony. *shrugs*

When the white knights roll in to a thread and start attacking those who criticize GW, I often wonder if they know that GW designs their stuff for a demographic that they are no longer part of.
.

Mate, I included a little bit of banter and you seem to have gone of the deep end. My apologies for that but nonetheless you really seem to have missed the point. I'm pleased Scott-S6 and Pacific see the point I made, perhaps if you stepped back from the keyboard and took a deep breath you might see that rather than getting in a sweat.

Incidentally nice PM, you appear to have gone from missing the point to mere pointlessness. If that's how you try to convince/goad people I can see why you have trouble addressing the matter at hand.

I'll leave this here so you can copy it for next time you need one.

Why not all 3. I have a table painted like an ocean for water games like Dragon wars, Dystopian wars, etc.

Throw a GF9 grass mat and you can setup for fantasy, flames of war, etc.

Throw the RoBB on top if you want my dynamic terrain. I always unbalance terrain anyway to mess with opponents. In both fantasy, and 40K terrain is now rolled for.

So first step is scrape all the terrain to one side. Then roll to see what goes where, and what gets put under the table.

Drives those people nutz who expect a certain amount of terrain on their side. However on the downside ends with some weird strategic placing of terrain pieces...

I have 2X sets of the RoBG set and a load of GW scenery packs, no regrets whatsoever.
Im just gonna be a petty gakker at this stage and say:
"Hey whatever works for you". L:eave the rest of us to it, thanks.

Oh good. Yet another 'haters gonna hate' image. What a wonderful and compelling argument. That sure is a "get out of making a coherent and logical argument whilst simultaneously ignoring any and all criticism, valid or otherwise" card, isn't it?

Who knew debating and having arguments was so damned easy! Haven't got time to actually rebut someone's points? Just post a tired-as-feth picture, and call it a day! Argument won!

I don't like all the whining about everything all the time either (although some complaining is perfectly justified), but I would, for example, like to be able to model my 40K/WHF miniature on a nice Micro Art base without the local GW store staff throwing a potential hissyfit when I dare take it out of the bag inside the store.

I haven't tried it yet, but I just know the current manager will make it an issue.

It's the little things like that which have crept along through the years since I started the hobby that definitely haven't made it better, and I indeed consider this GW's fault. Of course they want to make money and they are a business etc, but there are so many ways to go about it.

Good thing there are plenty of other options besides the GW store around here.

 TBD wrote:
but I would, for example, like to be able to model my 40K/WHF miniature on a nice Micro Art base without the local GW store staff throwing a potential hissyfit when I dare take it out of the bag inside the store.

Then don't tell them./ If they're just resin bases, and they ask how you did them, just tell them you made them yourself. They'll ooh and aah over the bases, and you can get on with playing. If they ask why the bottom is filled in and not a slotta base, just tell them you filled it in for stability.

Most staff won't even go that far with questioning.

 TBD wrote:
I don't like all the whining about everything all the time either (although some complaining is perfectly justified), but I would, for example, like to be able to model my 40K/WHF miniature on a nice Micro Art base without the local GW store staff throwing a potential hissyfit when I dare take it out of the bag inside the store.

I haven't tried it yet, but I just know the current manager will make it an issue.

As Loki says, just don't tell them. If they say it's from another manufacturer, just deny it and say it's some conversion work yourself. There is no way for him to prove otherwise.

I used to use an IG army that was comprised of at least about 50% non-GW stuff. Mostly just Pig Iron heads and the like, but also some complete Copplestone Castings miniatures that resembled older Necrons. The previous manager was pretty down to earth, he knew full well they weren't GW models but he turned a blind eye as I used to spend a fair amount of money in the store. The point was I didn't make an issue of it, and all of the stuff was painted so it was impossible for anyone (other than a real officianado ) to pinpoint that they weren't OOP GW minis.

Does basing really count as part of the figure then? That's one step away from saying you should use GW sand on your figure bases, IMO.

GW don't make scenic bases so why would they care?

I do use GW sand, I admit it and i really like the colour variation in it. I bought a bag about 15 years ago and it's still going strong. There got that one off my chest, now how to explain the GW PVA I have.....

 notprop wrote:
GW don't make scenic bases so why would they care?

They want to sell you this:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440312a&prodId=prod1570025

And these:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat470007a&prodId=prod1400002a

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat470007a&prodId=prod1400001a

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat470007a&prodId=prod1390050a

 Pacific wrote:

 TBD wrote:
I don't like all the whining about everything all the time either (although some complaining is perfectly justified), but I would, for example, like to be able to model my 40K/WHF miniature on a nice Micro Art base without the local GW store staff throwing a potential hissyfit when I dare take it out of the bag inside the store.

I haven't tried it yet, but I just know the current manager will make it an issue.

As Loki says, just don't tell them. If they say it's from another manufacturer, just deny it and say it's some conversion work yourself. There is no way for him to prove otherwise.

I used to use an IG army that was comprised of at least about 50% non-GW stuff. Mostly just Pig Iron heads and the like, but also some complete Copplestone Castings miniatures that resembled older Necrons. The previous manager was pretty down to earth, he knew full well they weren't GW models but he turned a blind eye as I used to spend a fair amount of money in the store. The point was I didn't make an issue of it, and all of the stuff was painted so it was impossible for anyone (other than a real officianado ) to pinpoint that they weren't OOP GW minis.

I openly use the Pig Iron heads in my GW. I still have to buy the guardsmen to use them, I just want my guard to look different. The heads are unlike anything they make, so I don't see the problem.

I openly use the Pig Iron heads in my GW. I still have to buy the guardsmen to use them, I just want my guard to look different. The heads are unlike anything they make, so I don't see the problem.

Again this line of posting has been talked before. It really depends at this moment on the GW manager at the GW store that is within your region.

I know that one GW manager in my area that would not allow those models in his store because it uses 3rd party product. I know this because I have been asked first hand about my scratch built models if I used other than GW parts.

Sooner or later as stated previously I believe that all of the GW stores will start cracking down on 3rd party product on people's models and not allow them in their stores.

And that still comes down to don't tell them. If they ask, they're scratch built with GW products and green stuff. If he happens to find something similar on the web, hey, what a coincidence.

 -Loki- wrote:
And that still comes down to don't tell them. If they ask, they're scratch built with GW products and green stuff. If he happens to find something similar on the web, hey, what a coincidence.

You would have to look REALLY hard, seeing as I have GW ones that look similar AND I mix the unit with complete GW models.

I'm with the "don't tell them" brigade.

What they don't know won't ruin their sanctified HHHobby dream.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm with the "don't tell them" brigade.

What they don't know won't ruin their sanctified HHHobby dream.

I thought miniatures at GW stores and tourneys had to be 50% GW, last time I checked a head isnt 50%, of course I may be wrong, either way that manager sounds like a donkey cave.

I'm with the "don't tell them" crowd. There is a guy at our local with his pre heresy Thousand Sons army (you will know him as regular Dakkanaut Proiteus). For the latest Throne of skulls gw tournament he actually emailed GW if he could use his TS termies with the legs from micro art studio. Guess what GW's response was?

I'm still facepalming as to why exactly he asked them, all he had to do when questioned was lie, and thus the tournament was denied seeing the wonderful army in full due to the owner naively thinking GW would say yes for some reason.

Although I do think there may have been a problem at Warhammer World (although don't quote me on this!) in the past with a couple of the big events.

Specifically Tempus Fugitives (they've done some really cool, large scale narrative campaigns for both 40k and WFB that a lot of guys from the UK will probably be familiar with) had to move their events to Maelstrom Games rather than use the big hall at Warhammer World. I'm not entirely sure about it, but I did hear at the time that it may have been something to do with non-GW models in people's armies - something that used to happen a lot especially in the older Pre-Heresy events, and before the current range of FW stuff came out.

Why should you have to lie about how you created YOUR army to play a game of toy soldiers , in a particular shop?

Oh just because GW plc likes to pretend it sells its models to people who think the entire hobby is totaly and completley encapsulated by GW plcs 3 core games .
And that knowlwdge of the wider hobby 'poisons the minds' of thier 'vunerable demoghraphic' against the GW hobby tm.

So the creativity and skill of its customers has to be hidden from view or lied about.(Even extended to studio staff like George Delapena kult of speed 'conversions' ffs.)

So the worst thing about the GW hobby tm, is the insular view of the corperate managment.IMO.

Yeah i would lie if I was in a GW store and they asked me about some of my models. I've got assorted legs, arms, and heads mixed it, and if they got suspicious I would say I greenstuffed it. If they're going to pull a spanish inquisition on me and inspect every single model, I'd take my bussiness elsewhere or just play on a foldout table in the parking lot

My FLGS has just one of those boards on their 6 tables, I prefer to use other tables since that damn GW board makes my dice bounce too much.

I actually asked if it was ok that I used my scratch built buggies (they use model cars as base with heavy conversions) instead the official gw models. If I recall correctly I argumented the reason for using non gw models was because the official ones look crappy.

Every worker in our gw is completely cool with my buggies but I don't tell the people unless they ask about them.

What I even find odd is that when I didn't have enough trukks I proxyed my rhinos as trukks and the manager wasn't cool with that. He said he would throw me out the next time I proxy my rhinos as trukks.

To me..the WORST thing about the hobby is the vocal 10% or so "SYCOPHANTS" who blindly cheer about EVERYTHING GW. "This" is a business, "GW" is amazing, "IT'S NEVER BEEN BETTER". It seems like to me that when people have a huge amount of money or identify their entire personality around a hobby they have, they take every opportunity to dump on people with valid complaints.

I fail to understand why the hobby is so important to these people that nothing GW does is ever questioned. Corporate apologists in general bug me and GW worshippers are pretty bad because their entire argument is always "LOL business." If someone doesn't like it... you don't need to take every opportunity to crap all over them when NO ONE IS EVEN TALKING ABOUT THAT TOPIC.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Yeah i would lie if I was in a GW store and they asked me about some of my models. I've got assorted legs, arms, and heads mixed it, and if they got suspicious I would say I greenstuffed it. If they're going to pull a spanish inquisition on me and inspect every single model, I'd take my bussiness elsewhere or just play on a foldout table in the parking lot

HA theres an idea, theres a good bit of space outside the front of my local GW, tempted to head up with a foldout table and have a game of DW or malifaux or something

My local GW (along with all other GW's from what I understand) replaced all their tables with ROB's, which is a real shame as they had an awesome demo board with a chasm, river, bridges, ruins etc...

Now all their tables are just pretty soul-less, more or less completely flat (since the ROB hills haren't really much of a hill), with a few of the GW terrain kits scattered around.

The worst thing has to be the sudden influx of lingerie models with every new codex. I don't think I can stand many more of them crashing our game nights after their shoots. All the giggling and pouting and bouncing... It's getting to be too much.