I was just reading the Horus Rising novel and was quite intrigued by the fact that the Imperium of Man has made a 180° turn in philosophy and conviction after the Heresy. What makes it more interesting still is the fact that nobody seems to remember anymore what the Emperor actually wanted his Imperium to be like. So, I was wondering - is there nobody left to call out the ecclesiarchy and the High Lords for their quite blatant contradictions of the Imperial Truth? I combed through some fluff and tried to find out who of the contemporary witnesses to the Great Crusade are still alive today.

Guilliman and El'Jonson are alive and would probably be the most direct source to the happenings of the 31st Millenium - yet they are dying and in stasis. The other Primarchs are either confirmed dead or missing.

The Traitor Primarchs are mostly turned into daemons and what remains of their conciousness and memory is probably closed to mankind.

And lastly, Abaddon the Despoiler was a direct lieutenant and advisor to Horus himself, he is still master of his own mind (to a certain degree) and should have witnessed everything as close as can be - yet he will neither talk to the Imperial people nor be believed if he did.

Does anyone here know of other survivors into the 41st millenium? Are there any living contemporaries of the Emperor left inside the Imperium?

There's also Bjorn of the Space Wolves but he's only semi-lucid most of the time


And IIRC the Lion is slowly healing in the base of the Rock, not dying

Firstly Lion 'El Johnson was smashed by his best friend Luther. As for the OP probably not as this was over 10,000 years ago, but then again, with the warp-storms happening maybe. I know that the Ultramarines Primarch is still alive but he's in a state of dormantry, suffering from a wound.
Apart from that, IICRC there are some DA files on Lion 'Els experience in the Crusade and something might lie in the Codex and Matt Ward probably wrote something about it in the SM codex.

I suppose that any marines who were around at the time of the heresy would have to be Dreadnoughts by now.

it was 10,000 years ago afterall.

There aren't many, if any. Heck, even Bjorn wasn't originally that old.

The Horus Heresy is described in 40K as being an event that nobody remembers. Its details lost to history. That doesn't make a ton of sense, but hey. It kept the guy at GW from having to write any details about it for like 10-15 years.

If DoW counts, Eliphas the Inheritor's backstory states he was alive during the HH.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
There aren't many, if any. Heck, even Bjorn wasn't originally that old.

The Horus Heresy is described in 40K as being an event that nobody remembers. Its details lost to history. That doesn't make a ton of sense, but hey. It kept the guy at GW from having to write any details about it for like 10-15 years.

Fact -he was - fought with emperor and Russ in the great crusade,him Abby, Garro, and hordes of chaos space marines who are fighting still + Deamon Primarchs

Most the the survivors from the 30k universe turned to Chaos or are renegades.

Abbadon, Lucius, Ahriman, Fabius Bile, Kharn, and some of the original legion members (a good number of the night lords, for example). Obviously, their version of the Emperor's "Truth" will be skewed.

There aren't any loyalists still alive and walking around. As mentioned in other posts, they are either in some sort of suspended animation, a sleeping dreadnought, or missing.

The truth is, many people do know what the original vision was. Most Marine chapters for one. The Inquisition's higher ups too.

However, everyone also knows that the only thing thats kept the Imperium together is the worship of the Emperor as a god. And in reality he practically is a god, worship of the Emperor also doesn't feed Chaos so its a harmless practice.


So its pretty much what they do to keep the Imperium together. And the Emperor most assuredly agrees that its for the best given the situation.

Bjorn is the only one left in the Imperium with any knowledge of the Heresy/Great Crusade era. His lucidity varies greatly depending on the author (though I suppose this could be explained away that like real senility, it comes and goes).

As for the Imperium's knowledge of the event, its more or less been lost to time and myth. Most Imperials don't even know it ever happened (or indeed, that most CSM even exist) though may be aware that at one point, the Emperor fought a great Heretic that saw heroes such as Sanguinius, Rogal Dorn, and Leman Russ fight at his side.

Only the Inner circles of the Inquisition, Space Marines (and even this varies), and Adeptus Custodes/High Lords probably have any real idea of what happened, and even that is limited to "The Primarchs betrayed the Emperor, led by Horus. The Emperor won and was interred in the Golden Throne".

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
If DoW counts, Eliphas the Inheritor's backstory states he was alive during the HH.

Yeah, I found the source on Lexicanum that says that Eliphas fought some Ultramarines on Kronus during the HH as a Word Bearer.

IIRC there's one story about Bjorn laughing at an Inquisitor calling the Big E "God-Emperor", with the comment that "this was how all this started, calling him a God". Can't remember where it's from though.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
IIRC there's one story about Bjorn laughing at an Inquisitor calling the Big E "God-Emperor", with the comment that "this was how all this started, calling him a God". Can't remember where it's from though.

Emperor's gift

Of the Space Marines, who theoretically have a longer lifespan than normal humans, Commander Dante is the oldest, at roughly 1,100 years old. Given that the Horus heresy started roughly 10,000 years from the apparent "present" in the 40k universe, it seems unlikely unless the highest members of the inquisition and the Lords of Terra have found some way to prolong their life even further than that (for the Inquisition it may be possible, but for the high lords of terra, it seems unlikely considering that Goge Vandire is suggested to not have been an original High Lord, and that as a result of his actions all other High Lords at the time of his appointment were executed or replaced in one manner or another). So apart from Bjorn and perhaps a few other Dreadnoughts, as well as the possibility of lost some of the lost Primarches surviving or a loyalist ship trapped in the warp, there would appear to be no human loyalists who still remember the age of the emperor.

That being said, some organizations may well have significant records of ages past, although they are likely kept in secret from the rest of the empire.

Dante is NOT 1,100 years old. He's been Chapter Master for 1,100 years. Nobody knows exactly how old he is(although he is surely the oldest)

Any living marines from the HH who are not encased in a dreadnought shell or missing are either renegade, heretics, or dead.

There are countless CSM who are from the HH, i know that in the Night Lords series everyone who is still a part of the Exalted's warband is from the HH, although it does not feel like 10,000 years for them because of warp distortion etc.

The only living Loyalist that i know of is Bjorn the Fell Handed, while he was there for the Burning of Prospero, he is now entombed in a dreadnaught shell is only awakened once every thousand years or when they chapter has a great need for his skills.

There was that Salamanders veteran, in Book I of their trilogy. He was old as sin and couldn't even move anymore, his armor was fused to where he sat down last.

There are The Fallen, some are CSM, some are renegades, and others are trying to live up to what the big E wanted. (Source: Angels of Darkness, so take it with a grain of salt)

Aren't some of the SW13th company from the original legion? Sure they're lost to the warp, but they are "active".

Read the Night Lords series by ADB.

The Fallen Angels
The 13th Company has a large amount of still active members who still actually have memories that reach that far back.

There might be a few remaining Astartes that were frozen in stasis.

Grey Knights might have a dreadnought from that age. (I.E. Garro)

Bjorn of course.

There is mention that some other Dreadnoughts might have survived and are still active in the first founding chapters or the second founding or hell even the third.

Potentially The Sanguinor.

In a way potentially all Astartes with the Blood Angels gene seed then. Not actual witnesses in a real sense, but through the hallucinations they apparently have.

Eldrad was around during the time of the Great Crusade, but the view of the Eldar on the matter would unavoidably be skewed.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
If DoW counts, Eliphas the Inheritor's backstory states he was alive during the HH.

From what I can recall most Chaos marines were alive during the heresy since you know that's when they turned against the emperor

Cypher, and the Fallen Angels would also be survivors of the heresy.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Grey Knights might have a dreadnought from that age. (I.E. Garro)

Garro would be cool but Loken would be cooler. Also who can see that UM librarian bloke from Garro: Oath of Moment being the signature release for a Librarian dreadnought addition to the game.

I know the Custodes is not always talked about but don't you think some of them might be 10,000 years old?

I think that is a big possiability

I would most definitely have to say legion custodes astartes because they dont fight and die like regular astartes. They simply guard the emperors corpse. But what do they know? They dont even leave the palace.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also vulkan, garro, loken, and.... was gonna say torgaddon but i just remember he got face smashed

 Brother Thomas wrote:
I would most definitely have to say legion custodes astartes because they dont fight and die like regular astartes. They simply guard the emperors corpse. But what do they know? They dont even leave the palace.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also vulkan, garro, loken, and.... was gonna say torgaddon but i just remember he got face smashed

10 000 in the future they are toast

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Cypher, and the Fallen Angels would also be survivors of the heresy.

It's not a given that the current Cypher is the same Cypher that was running around during the HH. The Deathwatch RPG had fluff about a blackshield that was pretty obviously meant to be one of the fallen.

I believe the only loyalist that could be by fluff standards would be Bjorn.... other than that on the traitor legion side you have Abbaddon & possibly Cypher. But one you all haven't named that would have any sense of mind left would be Fabius Bile IIRC his fluff...

 SGrimhart wrote:
I believe the only loyalist that could be by fluff standards would be Bjorn.... other than that on the traitor legion side you have Abbaddon & possibly Cypher. But one you all haven't named that would have any sense of mind left would be Fabius Bile IIRC his fluff...

The 13th Company would also be loyalist witnesses...

Malcador is still alive !?

Garvy wrote:
Malcador is still alive !?

Who the hell said that?

He collapased into dust. Unless he was reanimated....

For the Necrons, the Triarch Praetorians never went into stasis, so they undoubtedly witnessed the Horus Heresy. Whether they understood how important those events where is unlikely but they where still around for it.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Garvy wrote:
Malcador is still alive !?

Who the hell said that?

He collapased into dust. Unless he was reanimated....

The only ones Imperial or ex-Imperial who would remember the Heresy or GCwould be

Bjorn the Fell Handed
Lion
Russ (if alive)
Khan( if alive)
Vulkan (if alive)
Abbadon
Lucius
Kharn
Fabius Bile
Ahriman
Typhus
Mortarion
Angron
Magnus
Fulgrim
Perturabo
Alpharius Omegon ( if either or both are alive)
Some of the older veteran, CSM

Grey Templar wrote:Dante is NOT 1,100 years old. He's been Chapter Master for 1,100 years. Nobody knows exactly how old he is(although he is surely the oldest)

The 6E rulebook specifically says 1.100 years of age, though.

Marthike wrote:I know the Custodes is not always talked about but don't you think some of them might be 10,000 years old?
I think that is a big possiability

Why is that?
I'm not quite sure if there was any precedent, but I think 40k is one of those settings where an unlimited lifespan is impossible - unless you "ascend" to daemonhood or have your essence transferred into a machine.
There exists technology that can prolong one's life, but not indefinitely.

daveNYC wrote:It's not a given that the current Cypher is the same Cypher that was running around during the HH. The Deathwatch RPG had fluff about a blackshield that was pretty obviously meant to be one of the fallen.

Depending where you look. The article in WD #281 doesn't leave much of a doubt concerning Cypher's identity, and the Deathwatch RPG takes a lot of liberties with the fluff in general. Starting with their version of the Deathwatch not even belonging to the Inquisition.

I agree with the sentiment that other than important characters, the largest number of witnesses to the Heresy would be any Traitor marines who fought during the conflict, and the Space Wolves 13th company who, unless there's been something new added after the 13th Crusade codex about how they replace their numbers, are entirely from the 1st founding of the Space Wolves.

Both being the only groups who could have seen it without being impossibly old, as, due to the time dilation effects of the Warp, they might remember it as if it were a hundred years ago.

 Deadshot wrote:
The only ones Imperial or ex-Imperial who would remember the Heresy or GCwould be

Bjorn the Fell Handed
Lion
Russ (if alive)
Khan( if alive)
Vulkan (if alive)
Abbadon
Lucius
Kharn
Fabius Bile
Ahriman
Typhus
Mortarion
Angron
Magnus
Fulgrim
Perturabo
Alpharius Omegon ( if either or both are alive)
Some of the older veteran, CSM

And the 13th Company

If anyone would take William King's Space Wolves novels as any sort of canon, then the 13th Company is still around and kicking, and barring the fully-turned wulfen, the ones leading the Wulfen pack are still fully remember the age of the Horus Heresy.

If anyone would take William King's Space Wolves novels as any sort of canon, then the 13th Company is still around and kicking, and barring the fully-turned wulfen, the ones leading the Wulfen pack are still fully remember the age of the Horus Heresy.

Well, even if the King books aren't taken as canon, the 13th company were a playable force during the 13th Black Crusade worldwide campaign, and had their own codex list. Which makes them plenty canon in my book, even if they are no longer supported as an army in 6e.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
For the Necrons, the Triarch Praetorians never went into stasis, so they undoubtedly witnessed the Horus Heresy. Whether they understood how important those events where is unlikely but they where still around for it.

Good point. I haven't seen any posts regarding non-human witnesses yet either. But are the Praetorians/ Necrons 'living?'

Eldrad and his fellows probably predicted/ observed the HH.

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Dante is NOT 1,100 years old. He's been Chapter Master for 1,100 years. Nobody knows exactly how old he is(although he is surely the oldest)

The 6E rulebook specifically says 1.100 years of age, though.

So as soon as he was born they popped him into some power armour and pushed him in front of the Blood Angels?

< Taken by the void dragon. >

 Decio wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
For the Necrons, the Triarch Praetorians never went into stasis, so they undoubtedly witnessed the Horus Heresy. Whether they understood how important those events where is unlikely but they where still around for it.

Good point. I haven't seen any posts regarding non-human witnesses yet either. But are the Praetorians/ Necrons 'living?'

Eldrad and his fellows probably predicted/ observed the HH.

Yes, the Triarch Praetorians have their personailties and minds still intact.

Maybe John Grammaticus could have reincarnated again. Other than that Deadshot's list pretty much covers the candidates.

There are hints at the end of Prospero Burns that the skald (forgotten his name) could still be alive, he voluntarily enters stasis on Fenris after the events of Prospero. I can't remember the exact reasons for him doing this as I haven't read it in ages but he should still be alive. He would certainly be able to give insight into certain areas of the heresies build up like Prospero and Nikea

Yeh that might be a good shout. Kasper Hauser. He goes into stasis so the Space Wolves can keep his "accounts" and they can be told to further generations of Space Wolves.

 Deadshot wrote:
The only ones Imperial or ex-Imperial who would remember the Heresy or GCwould be

Bjorn the Fell Handed
Lion
Russ (if alive)
Khan( if alive)
Vulkan (if alive)
Abbadon
Lucius
Kharn
Fabius Bile
Ahriman
Typhus
Mortarion
Angron
Magnus
Fulgrim
Perturabo
Alpharius Omegon ( if either or both are alive)
Some of the older veteran, CSM

Poor Corax...

 1hadhq wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
The only ones Imperial or ex-Imperial who would remember the Heresy or GCwould be

Bjorn the Fell Handed
Lion
Russ (if alive)
Khan( if alive)
Vulkan (if alive)
Abbadon
Lucius
Kharn
Fabius Bile
Ahriman
Typhus
Mortarion
Angron
Magnus
Fulgrim
Perturabo
Alpharius Omegon ( if either or both are alive)
Some of the older veteran, CSM

Poor Corax...

And Ferrus Manus

Corax is hiding somewhere. Just don't turn around.

So wait all of the fallen Primarchs unless I fail to see it were never killed were the gods like hey your a daemon prince now have fun!!

 n0t_u wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Dante is NOT 1,100 years old. He's been Chapter Master for 1,100 years. Nobody knows exactly how old he is(although he is surely the oldest)

The 6E rulebook specifically says 1.100 years of age, though.

So as soon as he was born they popped him into some power armour and pushed him in front of the Blood Angels?

I think it's more likely that either one of the two numbers was a mistake. Where is the Chapter Master thing from? It could be Grey Templar simply mis-remembering ... or if it is out of some novel, just one author mixing things up again.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:
There are hints at the end of Prospero Burns that the skald (forgotten his name) could still be alive, he voluntarily enters stasis on Fenris after the events of Prospero. I can't remember the exact reasons for him doing this as I haven't read it in ages but he should still be alive. He would certainly be able to give insight into certain areas of the heresies build up like Prospero and Nikea

Glorioski wrote:
Yeh that might be a good shout. Kasper Hauser. He goes into stasis so the Space Wolves can keep his "accounts" and they can be told to further generations of Space Wolves.

I would awake him now and then just so I can ask him about Russ ( then Bjorn wouldnt be only pissed stassis guy )

Ask him what? He didn't know much about Russ except that the guy is no stranger to a cover-up.

There is a DA space marine that was alive durring the heresy.

During a battle with the World Eaters he is thrown from the swirling mass of assault crafts and lost to his legion.

He has no choice but to wait for help while floating in space and noone ever comes.

He passes out and wakes up 10,000 years later at the edge of the Eye of Terror.

He is then discovered by a fallen and the two have some interesting conversations.

 Omegus wrote:
Ask him what? He didn't know much about Russ except that the guy is no stranger to a cover-up.

Yeh all his story is already laid out in Prospero Burns. If Jon Gramaticus reincarnated he would be more than interesting though.

Glorioski wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Ask him what? He didn't know much about Russ except that the guy is no stranger to a cover-up.

Yeh all his story is already laid out in Prospero Burns. If Jon Gramaticus reincarnated he would be more than interesting though.

No matter how "that situation " was silly - it still counts as atempt of peaceful resolution...

and Magnus admited that he putted spies into the SW - so I'm wondering were both of them been played....

 DeffDred wrote:
There is a DA space marine that was alive durring the heresy.

During a battle with the World Eaters he is thrown from the swirling mass of assault crafts and lost to his legion.

He has no choice but to wait for help while floating in space and noone ever comes.

He passes out and wakes up 10,000 years later at the edge of the Eye of Terror.

He is then discovered by a fallen and the two have some interesting conversations.

How? And in which novel? If he passed out, his armor/ hibernation organ thingy would only keep him alive for a short while
I think at most 6 years. ( random number, most certainly not 10,000) though it could be a mystical miracle in 40k

There are some of those Thunder Warriors who survived their purge. Can't remember which book it is but their leader apparently has knowledge of genetics that rival the Emperor's and gets his hands on some geneseed during the heresy. They might still be alive.

I remember now, Outcast Dead

 Lynata wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Dante is NOT 1,100 years old. He's been Chapter Master for 1,100 years. Nobody knows exactly how old he is(although he is surely the oldest)

The 6E rulebook specifically says 1.100 years of age, though.

So as soon as he was born they popped him into some power armour and pushed him in front of the Blood Angels?

I think it's more likely that either one of the two numbers was a mistake. Where is the Chapter Master thing from? It could be Grey Templar simply mis-remembering ... or if it is out of some novel, just one author mixing things up again.

Its a quite from Lysander, in the BA codex IIRC.

It says he cannot remember a time when Dante was not Chapter master of the Blood Angels. And Lysander was stuck in the Warp for 1,000 years and is around 400 actual years old.

Alright, so I've tracked some more sources down to get to the bottom of this. For starters, Dante's age is already given with ~1.100 in 2nd Edition:

"One of the peculiarities of the Flaw is that it has vastly increased the lifespan of those who survive, so it is not uncommon for Blood Angels to live for a thousand years. Indeed, the current Commander of the Chapter, has lived for nearly 1,100 years."
-- 2E C:Angels of Death

For comparison, here is the 6E rulebook quote:
"Commander Dante is said to be 1100 standard Terran years of age and his vast service record fills entire libraries with material."

Now then, next I went to the 5E Space Marine Codex, where I found this:
"In the latter years of M40, the Strike Cruiser Shield of Valour was lost to the Warp, taking Lysander and a good portion of the 1st Company with it. [...] Nearly a thousand years later the Shield of Valour re-entered normal space in outer orbit of Malodrax, an Iron Warriors stronghold on the western fringes of the Eye of Terror."

Note how it says nearly a thousand years, which means we have some room to manoeuver. This space is further increased by the first part mentioning "latter years of M40" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/latter), for we actually have the exact date the Shield of Valour appeared again: 964.M41.
Now, given that Space Marines - in spite of their nimbus - actually die from time to time, it seems that becoming a Chapter Master within two or three centuries is quite possible (indeed for other Chapters it would be mandatory, given that even Space Marines have a lifespan of "only" a few hundred years). So, given the aforementioned fluff I would summarise that Dante must have become Chapter Master shortly before the Shield of Valour disappeared, and has held this position ever since, whereas the exact time Lysander's vessel was trapped in the Warp would be somewhere around ~700-900 standard years. Contradiction averted!

So if you can't remember when something wasn't the case, that means it has been the case your entire lifetime?

No. The statement simply says that if there was a BA chapter master in Lysanders time in real space before Dante. Lysander can't remember him.

...and that's taking the statement literally when it is more than possible Lysander romanticising. i.e. "Dante has been around for so long I forget who the last guy was'.

No silly time dilation explanation needed.

That's a good point. I suppose it would be more clear if we knew when exactly Lysander made that statement.

As one of the earlier posts say in Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe there is a surviving Dark Angel from during the Heresy called Astelan who goes into stasis.

Spoiler alert:
In the book also implies Luther is still alive. So that's two right there

First post. Hey everyone!

How about the Sanguinor? Not that I expect it to speak to anyone much, though.

The most pure form of documentation on the big E and the HH would most likely be held by Trazyn. Dude loves history and that includes imperial history. I'd also think a number of older dark eldar that survived Vects purge remember the Emperor and the HH.

Are the Space Marines in the HH books supposed to be immortal or not? I seem to remember reading that none have lived long enough to test the theory really, but the lifespan of marines if they're not immortal seems to vary a lot between sources...

 redbristles wrote:
Are the Space Marines in the HH books supposed to be immortal or not? I seem to remember reading that none have lived long enough to test the theory really, but the lifespan of marines if they're not immortal seems to vary a lot between sources...

It's up for debate. In Horus Rising it explicitly states marines are immortal and live until they die in battle. However in A Thousand Sons Ahriman says in the dialogue, like you say, that none have lived long enough to know if they are immortal or not.

The only other place marine lifespan is hinted at is in one of the BA codexes where it says Blood Angels live longer than other marine chapters. Which implies Marines do have a finite lifespan.

Glorioski wrote:
So if you can't remember when something wasn't the case, that means it has been the case your entire lifetime?

No. The statement simply says that if there was a BA chapter master in Lysanders time in real space before Dante. Lysander can't remember him.

...and that's taking the statement literally when it is more than possible Lysander romanticising. i.e. "Dante has been around for so long I forget who the last guy was'.

No silly time dilation explanation needed.

BTW, there's these friendly smiling an' waving gray guys with mindwiping fetish.

 Decio wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:
There is a DA space marine that was alive durring the heresy.

During a battle with the World Eaters he is thrown from the swirling mass of assault crafts and lost to his legion.

He has no choice but to wait for help while floating in space and noone ever comes.

He passes out and wakes up 10,000 years later at the edge of the Eye of Terror.

He is then discovered by a fallen and the two have some interesting conversations.

How? And in which novel? If he passed out, his armor/ hibernation organ thingy would only keep him alive for a short while
I think at most 6 years. ( random number, most certainly not 10,000) though it could be a mystical miracle in 40k

The book Eye of Terror. Published in 1999. Perhaps one of the strangest 40k books out there.

I think he survives hibernation so long because he is in vacuum (literally, the story says his armour vented all air and froze him within) but also it hints he was guided by the powers of chaos to the rose cluster.

I recommend this book only because of all the silly stuff in it. Navigators walking around unguarded, Rogue Traders selling Wraithguard, Astartes fighting in space without helmets ect.

To get back to part of the OP question. Would anyone oppose the current version of the "Imperial Truth"?

I don't think so. I think if any of the loyal primarchs came back/woke up they would be angry at how things are, but they would understand that it has to be this way to prevent another civil war and to keep people in line.

There is a great short story by John French called "The Last Remembrancer" which details Dorn interrogating a remembrancer that witnessed the turn of Horus from loyalist to traitor. Dorn is left wondering if the Imperial Truth ever existed.

The current Imperium is awful, but it sort of works.

 DarthMarko wrote:
No matter how "that situation " was silly - it still counts as atempt of peaceful resolution...

and Magnus admited that he putted spies into the SW - so I'm wondering were both of them been played....

It was not an attempt to communicate, because they were wrong about him being a TS plant. Completely and utterly wrong. Why not use standard channels? Especially when you find the planetary defenses powered down and the way to the planet wide open? Why just assume that your brother is the devil and wants to destroy you, when he really could care less? Magnus never admitted to planting spies in the Wolves' ranks. He wouldn't need to, given his scrying capabilities.

 Omegus wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
No matter how "that situation " was silly - it still counts as atempt of peaceful resolution...

and Magnus admited that he putted spies into the SW - so I'm wondering were both of them been played....

It was not an attempt to communicate, because they were wrong about him being a TS plant. Completely and utterly wrong. Why not use standard channels? Especially when you find the planetary defenses powered down and the way to the planet wide open? Why just assume that your brother is the devil and wants to destroy you, when he really could care less? Magnus never admitted to planting spies in the Wolves' ranks. He wouldn't need to, given his scrying capabilities.

See how one sided you are
Now tell me something that they were good and honest...without offence - read TS again
And I would like your clarification of that ...

Glorioski wrote:

redbristles wrote:Are the Space Marines in the HH books supposed to be immortal or not? I seem to remember reading that none have lived long enough to test the theory really, but the lifespan of marines if they're not immortal seems to vary a lot between sources...

It's up for debate. In Horus Rising it explicitly states marines are immortal and live until they die in battle. However in A Thousand Sons Ahriman says in the dialogue, like you say, that none have lived long enough to know if they are immortal or not.
The only other place marine lifespan is hinted at is in one of the BA codexes where it says Blood Angels live longer than other marine chapters. Which implies Marines do have a finite lifespan.

"Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two or three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
-- 6E Rulebook p181, 'Forces of the Imperium'

There you have it. Sounds like this would be somewhat on par with what Rejuvenation Treatments can do for rich and/or influential Imperial officials. Makes kind of sense, too, when it's the same technology and the Astartes just have it kind of "built-in" (like, for example, some gland that produces a drug).

Surely there has got to be some Custodes still around since they only Guard the Emperor and don't get involved in off world conflicts.

 Lynata wrote:

Glorioski wrote:

redbristles wrote:Are the Space Marines in the HH books supposed to be immortal or not? I seem to remember reading that none have lived long enough to test the theory really, but the lifespan of marines if they're not immortal seems to vary a lot between sources...

It's up for debate. In Horus Rising it explicitly states marines are immortal and live until they die in battle. However in A Thousand Sons Ahriman says in the dialogue, like you say, that none have lived long enough to know if they are immortal or not.
The only other place marine lifespan is hinted at is in one of the BA codexes where it says Blood Angels live longer than other marine chapters. Which implies Marines do have a finite lifespan.

"Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two or three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
-- 6E Rulebook p181, 'Forces of the Imperium'

Ah looks like they finally put that debate to rest then.

 Glorioski wrote:

 Lynata wrote:

Glorioski wrote:

redbristles wrote:Are the Space Marines in the HH books supposed to be immortal or not? I seem to remember reading that none have lived long enough to test the theory really, but the lifespan of marines if they're not immortal seems to vary a lot between sources...

It's up for debate. In Horus Rising it explicitly states marines are immortal and live until they die in battle. However in A Thousand Sons Ahriman says in the dialogue, like you say, that none have lived long enough to know if they are immortal or not.
The only other place marine lifespan is hinted at is in one of the BA codexes where it says Blood Angels live longer than other marine chapters. Which implies Marines do have a finite lifespan.

"Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily live two or three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer."
-- 6E Rulebook p181, 'Forces of the Imperium'

Ah looks like they finally put that debate to rest then.

But...that's just for current marines. The gene seed that they carry has been degrading for 10,000 years. I think it's a case of a copy not being as good as the original. With the loss of technology and knowledge, the marines that are produced in the 41st millennium are not as good as the ones that were made in the 31st.

That's a bit far fetched. I'd rather just go with what Ahriman says, that at the time of the great crusade they hadn't lived long enough to know if they were immortal or not.

In the blood angels codex it mentions that some of their dreadnoughts have been alive since the horus heresy.

There is also the character in the salamanders book, numerous chaos marines, and Bjorn.

And the remembrancer in prospero burns! He stays in stasis except to recite the tales from the heresy.

Actually the BA Codex mentions that the dreadnoughts themselves are from as far back as the heresy, not their occupants.

Interesting. Can Marines entombed into a Dreadnought still die of old age? I've read that they are put on stasis except when needed, which would naturally prolong their "expiration", but if they see sufficient combat perhaps the occupant has to be exchanged for a new guy from time to time?

Not really, the sarcophogas uses stasis technology to preserve the body.

And if it would eventually die naturally, it hasn't happened yet to my knowledge. All dreadnought deaths are as a result of enemy action.

I'm sure I read somewhere Bjorn has had to have increasingly longer periods in stasis because of age.Which suggests they do have an expiration date when entombed in a dreadnought.

I believe thats a requirement for his mental health, not his physical health.

Which leads to the actual expiration reason for a dreadnought. They go crazy and have to be put down, their body could last a long time but their mind just loses it.

All he asked was...

 Lynata wrote:
Interesting. Can Marines entombed into a Dreadnought still die of old age?

I don't know why it being physical or mental would make any difference to that.

Grey Templar wrote:Not really, the sarcophogas uses stasis technology to preserve the body.

Yeah, but wouldn't they have to be put out of stasis to do battle?

I was under impression that stasis freezes everything, including your brain and its activity.

If not ... hell, I don't want to know what a tortured soul a certain Primarch has to be by now.

Dreadnoughts are placed in a stasis field while not in use. Time simply does not pass within such a field. The body inside it does not exist in a stasis field.

If a stasis field were inside the sarcophagus, the dreadnought would not be able to do anything, as the meat parts inside are locked outside of the flow of time, and would be incapable of interacting with the outside world in any way, not even its thoughts would function, since the bio-chemical processes that are "thoughts" are frozen in time.

Psienesis wrote:If a stasis field were inside the sarcophagus, the dreadnought would not be able to do anything, as the meat parts inside are locked outside of the flow of time, and would be incapable of interacting with the outside world in any way, not even its thoughts would function, since the bio-chemical processes that are "thoughts" are frozen in time.

It would obviously be shut off whenever the Dreadnought is needed, just like it would work with a statis field deployed outside the Dread.
Do they really put the entire Dreadnought into stasis? Sounds like a huge waste of space. Or are stasis chambers truly that large that they are unable to be fitted inside as part of the machine?

Don't think they put whole Dreads into stasis, there's no need to and lots of fluff bits talk about how Dreads just sort of sit in their warship/fortress' armoury until needed.

Yes it's a bit bizarre that a 10,000 year old Dread's armor suit wouldn't just fall apart. But 40k has lots of ancient weapons, 5,000 year old battleships (older then recorded human civilization) still going strong and better then the newer ships are the norm. GW doesn't really get how quickly machines break down or you just dismiss it as a result of the technological wonders of the dark age of technology.

 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
Cypher, and the Fallen Angels would also be survivors of the heresy.

I was waiting for someone to remember Cypher.

Do they really put the entire Dreadnought into stasis? Sounds like a huge waste of space. Or are stasis chambers truly that large that they are unable to be fitted inside as part of the machine?

All of Roboute Guilliman is contained within a stasis field, and he's a Primarch.

They mention in one of the SW Codices, I want to say 2nd Ed, that Bjorn's sarcophagus is contained behind a stasis field deep within the forges of the Fang when he is not "active", and often remains in such a state for thousands of years at a stretch, until the Great Wolf has need of him, or a Great Hunt is called.

Stasis fields, themselves, though, can apparently be almost any size, from small void-safes to at least large enough to contain an entire Primarch, his power armor, and his throne. In total size, this is probably the same size as, if not larger, than a dreadnought. There's other, scattered references for well-heeled vessels (or vessels captained by well-heeled Rogue Traders or the AdMech) having entire holds equipped with stasis fields for transporting time-sensitive cargoes.

MadMuzza wrote:
Surely there has got to be some Custodes still around since they only Guard the Emperor and don't get involved in off world conflicts.

Wont all the custodes have been alive during the HH? Unless the technology to create them is still being used to replace those that die of old age.

If it is possible to create custodes you would think the IoM would be churning them out as fast as possible.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

MadMuzza wrote:
Surely there has got to be some Custodes still around since they only Guard the Emperor and don't get involved in off world conflicts.

Wont all the custodes have been alive during the HH? Unless the technology to create them is still being used to replace those that die of old age.

If it is possible to create custodes you would think the IoM would be churning them out as fast as possible.

Not necessarily, each custodian is more akin to say a hand built Shelby Cobra whereas SM are more akin to a Ford Mustang that just came off the assembly line. The hand built Cobra takes a lot of time and a lot of individual attention to put together while the Ford Mustang, well, i think you get the picture.

The only people that could put an end to the High Lords of Terra's reign, would be the Primarchs. The Lords of Terra and Ecclesiarchy are just facist pigs in control of a massive dictatorship.

Bjorn is old and wise, but his influence outside of the Space Wolves gene seed is arguably low.

Fallen Angels coming back wouldn't change much, either the DA would kill them or nobody would believe them. I remember people though that Cypher was the Emperor.

I think the only people that could dethrone them, who has the most influence and isn't dead would be Roboute Guilliman or Leman Russ returning. The Lion I think would continue to try and hunt down the rest of the Fallen, eliminating all evidence of that ever happening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kanekaneo wrote:
The only people that could put an end to the High Lords of Terra's reign, would be the Primarchs. The Lords of Terra and Ecclesiarchy are just facist pigs in control of a massive dictatorship.

Bjorn is old and wise, but his influence outside of the Space Wolves gene seed is arguably low.

Fallen Angels coming back wouldn't change much, either the DA would kill them or nobody would believe them. I remember people though that Cypher was the Emperor.

I think the only people that could dethrone them, who has the most influence and isn't dead would be Roboute Guilliman or Leman Russ and the 13th Company returning. The Lion I think would continue to try and hunt down the rest of the Fallen, eliminating all evidence of that ever happening.

I like to think that Sigismund is still alive. His death is never recorded and given that he is the "Emperor's Champion" and the unofficial primarch of the largest current space marine chapter whose crusades are unknown to even the high marshal makes it possible for him to still be alive.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
No matter how "that situation " was silly - it still counts as atempt of peaceful resolution...

and Magnus admited that he putted spies into the SW - so I'm wondering were both of them been played....

It was not an attempt to communicate, because they were wrong about him being a TS plant. Completely and utterly wrong. Why not use standard channels? Especially when you find the planetary defenses powered down and the way to the planet wide open? Why just assume that your brother is the devil and wants to destroy you, when he really could care less? Magnus never admitted to planting spies in the Wolves' ranks. He wouldn't need to, given his scrying capabilities.

See how one sided you are

Spoiler:

“Still,” said Ahriman, “it is a shame to have lost the opportunity to learn more of the Wolves. Ohthere Wyrdmake and I formed a close bond. With Uthizzar’s help, I would have learned much of the inner workings of the Wolf King’s Legion.”
Magnus nodded and smiled.
“Have no fear, Ahzek,” he said, “Wyrdmake was not our only source within the Wolves. I have other assets in place, none of whom know they dance to my tune.”

Now tell me something that they were good and honest...without offence - read TS again
And I would like your clarification of that ...

Don't bother. Omegus is a huge SW hater who will ignore practically anything quoted from fact as long as it will further his SW hate.

Back to the OP,

Bjorn the Felhanded: Fought alongside both Russ and the Emperor during the Great Crusade and HH. Bjorn is woken every 100yrs for the Great Feast to retell the sagas or when the chapter is in great need, although it is taking longer and longer to pull him from stasis.

SW 13th Co: As detailed by the King novels and later by the Eye of Terror. Present during the Great Crusade, but fluff indicates they were sent into the warp at Prospero to finish the Thousand Sons and thus not present during the HH.

John Grammaticus was alive back then and he is immortal... Wonder where he's been chill axing all these years....

 kanekaneo wrote:
The Lion I think would continue to try and hunt down the rest of the Fallen, eliminating all evidence of that ever happening.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Dante is NOT 1,100 years old. He's been Chapter Master for 1,100 years. Nobody knows exactly how old he is(although he is surely the oldest)

My honest opinion on this? Dante is Azkellion, the original Sanguinary Guard left on Earth to lead the chapter. Now to the Butthurt Bunker

It surprises me that no one has mentioned Erebus yet. For those who don't know him, he is the ass Word Bearer that had a huge hand in the heresy.

Every depiction of dreadnoughts that I've read in the HH books or other Black Library books have them in some sort of hibernation when they aren't in use.

Bjorn is kept in hibernation and awoken when his council is needed (The Emperor's Gift).

There is brief discussion about how the Dreadnoughts in the Ultramarines Legion are kept in hibernation in Know No Fear.

The crazy-ass Night Lords dreadnought in ADB's recent trilogy is kept in hibernation when they aren't at war.

I thought Lysander from the Fists was part of the Great Crusade? I don't own a SM codex so not suprised if I am wrong.

Nevermind, I was wrong he came some time after. A great deal even.

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Don't bother. Omegus is a huge SW hater who will ignore practically anything quoted from fact as long as it will further his SW hate.

Aw, you mad, bro? I'm sorry the HH novels make your favorite faction look like a bunch of tools. TS and Prospero Burns are far from the only novels to cast them in a negative light.

As for Magnus' supposed "unwitting puppets and spies" among the Wolves, that seems to have been a bunch of his typical know-it-all bluster, since they never materialized.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
If DoW counts, Eliphas the Inheritor's backstory states he was alive during the HH.

Unfortunately (or fortunately - your choice) DoW isnt cannon.

 Omegus wrote:

Aw, you mad, bro? I'm sorry the HH novels make your favorite faction look like a bunch of tools. TS and Prospero Burns are far from the only novels to cast them in a negative light.

Is that the fault of the Wolves or of the writers, though? My money's on the writers.

 Omegus wrote:

 Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Don't bother. Omegus is a huge SW hater who will ignore practically anything quoted from fact as long as it will further his SW hate.

Aw, you mad, bro? I'm sorry the HH novels make your favorite faction look like a bunch of tools. TS and Prospero Burns are far from the only novels to cast them in a negative light.

As for Magnus' supposed "unwitting puppets and spies" among the Wolves, that seems to have been a bunch of his typical know-it-all bluster, since they never materialized.

Omegus. What are you doin? Omegus. Stahp

 Omegus wrote:


As for Magnus' supposed "unwitting puppets and spies" among the Wolves, that seems to have been a bunch of his typical know-it-all bluster, since they never materialized.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bran Dawri wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

Aw, you mad, bro? I'm sorry the HH novels make your favorite faction look like a bunch of tools. TS and Prospero Burns are far from the only novels to cast them in a negative light.

Is that the fault of the Wolves or of the writers, though? My money's on the writers.

I wouldn't say that - not at all, they are well rounded in "Prospero Burns" which puts another perspective on them...

Mhm. I'm generally very unimpressed with the writing of BL novels, to the point where I avoid them unless I absolutely have nothing better to read, up to and including technical specs on stuff I don't work with but might conceivably in the future...

Mind you, some of the novels have been tolerable, but very often I halfway through the novels have such a bad taste in my mouth from them that the only reason I finish is that I very much dislike leaving things unfinished...

in one of the night lord novels void stalker i think Talos tells a loyalist marine the truth but they ignore it as lies as for loyalists bjorn and the 13th company of the space wolves

Apart from the obvious traitor lords and champions the only loyalist is Bjorn the Fell Handed whom according to fluff is the oldest space marine in the Imperium weather he is a dreadnought or not. The SW awaken him every 100 years to tell stories of the days when he fought alonside Leman Russ and the Emperor.

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:


As for Magnus' supposed "unwitting puppets and spies" among the Wolves, that seems to have been a bunch of his typical know-it-all bluster, since they never materialized.

Well, it's true, is it not? None of these supposed unwitting puppets ever did anything or say anything, so Magnus was probably just trying to look cool in front of his boy Ahriman.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daemonhammer wrote:
Unfortunately (or fortunately - your choice) DoW isnt cannon.

DoW has plenty of cannons. 40K doesn't really have canon.

TheAngrySquig wrote:Omegus. What are you doin? Omegus. Stahp

Beg pardon?

Bran Dawri wrote:Is that the fault of the Wolves or of the writers, though? My money's on the writers.

Is that a valid distinction? Space Wolves are not some real organization where you can accuse negative writers of being libelous. Space Wolves are what they are written to be, and they are written to be either as juvenile wish fulfillment, or outright tools. You don't need to reach for the BL, either. If you look at the older fluff, where the whole HH was just a vague background story, Leman Russ stood out as the bullheaded, quarrelsome one. Even the supposedly favorable novel like Prospero Burns doesn't really cast them in a positive light, given what it reveals about Fenris culture.

 Omegus wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:

 Omegus wrote:


As for Magnus' supposed "unwitting puppets and spies" among the Wolves, that seems to have been a bunch of his typical know-it-all bluster, since they never materialized.

Well, it's true, is it not? None of these supposed unwitting puppets ever did anything or say anything, so Magnus was probably just trying to look cool in front of his boy Ahriman.

Have you read Prospero Burns? If not don't read the spoiler below.

That was the daemon/Horus/whatever. Try again.

 Omegus wrote:

Is that a valid distinction? Space Wolves are not some real organization where you can accuse negative writers of being libelous. Space Wolves are what they are written to be, and they are written to be either as juvenile wish fulfillment, or outright tools. You don't need to reach for the BL, either. If you look at the older fluff, where the whole HH was just a vague background story, Leman Russ stood out as the bullheaded, quarrelsome one. Even the supposedly favorable novel like Prospero Burns doesn't really cast them in a positive light, given what it reveals about Fenris culture.

I'm not accusing them of being libelous. This isn't journalism. I'm accusing them of bad writing. As for the rest, *every* 40K faction is written as some kind of juvenile wish fulfilment. This is about a game of plastic toy soldiers with lazorzzz. In spehss.

Furthermore, even if the SW are not a real organisation, they do have a core concept behind them. They're Vikings. In space. To contrast with the rest of the Imperium, they do still have a sense of honour, and will do the right thing, come Hell or high water.
As a concept, cool as feth.

Then it'supposed to be fleshed out in (for example) the (5th ed) Codex. Space Wolf Wolfy Mc Wolfwolf riding his giant wolf (in 1,5 ton power armour no less!) wearing his wolf necklace and his wolf pelt. (I've blacked out the passages concerning anything riding giant wolves from my Codex. They don't exist.) The gulf between the concept and what the HH writers have butchered it to is even wider. Now they're suddenly brooding, dark executioners, with no morailty or sense of honour.
So yeah. Bad writing. Not the fault of the Chapter, or its fans.

 Omegus wrote:
That was the daemon/Horus/whatever. Try again.

It was a daemon. Who could get into him because of Magnuses hidden one projest

 TheAngrySquig wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
That was the daemon/Horus/whatever. Try again.

It was a daemon. Who could get into him because of Magnuses hidden one projest

I have no idea what you are talking about. I suspect that is something we have in common. Get into who? The whole thing was a phantasm, the real Amon was far below next to his Primarch listening to Montarion being a little girl.

I remember something about the daemon/horus/whatever being able to get into the custodian because of the warp energy that the skald had in him due to being a hidden one. Something like he became a teleport homer for daemons

Not within the Imperium; Dante's basically stated to be one of the oldest living Space Marines, and he's only around a thousand years old. There are definitely Eldar and Daemons who remember the rise of Humanity, but they don't tend to talk to humans much; unless one of the vanished Primarchs returns or Gulliman/the Lion/the Emperor wakes up we've pretty much lost all living witnesses to those days. Bjorn the Fell-Handed doesn't count, he's way too senile to point out to the modern Imperium that the Emperor took a dim view of religion.